Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement
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See also: Logged AE sanctions
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Cihsai
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Cihsai (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Cihsai (talk) 21:16, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- Topic ban from the subject of Armenia and Azerbaijan, imposed at here, logged at Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 logs
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- EdJohnston (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- Notification Diff
Statement by Cihsai
The reason for the ban is: “You’ve once again reverted the lead of Hemshin peoples to remove mention of possible Armenian descent, without ever achieving consensus for your views,”
Background:
Back in 2007- 2008 lengthy discussions took place addressing, among others, the issue of alleged “Armenian roots”. Not only the wording but also its location within the article has been dealt with. The lead paragraph as well as the sections dealing with the history and demographics have undergone numerous changes. That discussion and editing came to a halt by end of 2008 and a fully referenced- and somehow lenghty- lead article became stable. In December 2009, a user Seth Nimbosa reorganized the article, shortening drastically the lead article (Diff). Nobody contested that edit and so that one became the stable version.
In October 2012, JackalLantern introduced a sentence regarding alleged “Armenian roots” into the lead paragraph claiming he is “Restoring crucial and deliberately removed and suppressed sentence”. Looking back until 2008, I could not locate the sentence. That is to say that the claim of “restoration” does not stand. On the contrary JackalLantern has introduced a sentence into the lead paragraph without prior discussion.
Reverts:
Since then, the very same sentence has been removed from the lead paragraph by myself and reinserted back about a dozen times by JackalLantern and MarshallBagramyan, sometimes within hours after my action. They were very recently joined by a third user yerevantsi.
During the "revert period", I have:
- steadily invited JackalLantern and MarshallBagramyan to study the prior discussion on this issue. If that would have happened those users would have seen that there are arguments why the claim regarding “Armenian roots” does not belong to the lead paragraph,
- encouraged them to study the article (and not only the lead paragraph). If that would have happened those users would understand that such a statement in the lead would not be in harmony with the rest of the article.
- (if not convinced) requested those users to at least discuss the sentence they wish to insert prior to the insertion
All the response I got was in my opinion commonplaces, such as “denying or attempting to obscure their Armenian provenance” ,“No serious scholar questions this basic fact about the Hamshens”, “Turkish nationalist propagandists “.
Relevant diffs in chronological order: [1],[2],[3],[4],[5],[6],[7],[8],[9],[10],[11],[12],[13],[14],[15],[16],[17],[18].
Admin Involvement:
Messages of the banning Administrator to me in my and his talk pages indicates that he has not noticed :
- My explanations and requests for discussion in the edit summaries.
- That the “reference” of the sentence in question is used on numerous places in the body of the article.Hence it is not removed.
- That I have not claimed that there is consensus to “remove” but on the contrary requested discussion before changing longstanding stable lead.
Conclusions:
Due to above the “Ban” is not fair. It deprives me of using Wikipedia rules to influence the Article I am interested in. Also, Hemshin has no relation to Azerbaijan. This article is presumably considered under the rules of WP:ARBAA2 due to the mere fact that the users inserting the controversial sentence are involved therein.
Statement by EdJohnston
- Cihsai (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This saga began when MarshalBagramyan left a note on my talk:
- Hi Ed. Can you please take a look at editor Cihsai. Through the course of this year, he has edited no other article besides the Hemshin peoples and has made no other contribution to it beside removing/reverting a crucial part of the lead, which states that the Hemshin people are believed to have an Armenian origin and which is well sourced. He has carried out the same edit time and time again and has obliquely referred to a "discussion on the talk page", which he has never bothered to make a contribution. I, along with other editors, have reverted such disruptive edits but he persists in making the reverts. I think some sort of action is necessary here and I'd appreciate any help in dealing with this matter. Thanks.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:43, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
By checking the article, I verified that Cihsai had been reverting the Hemshin peoples article with no discussion, altogether about 12 times since December 2012. Here is the note I left for User:Cihsai on 6 November. This message was hoping to persuade him to engage in discussion about the possible Armenian origin of the Hemshin peoples before reverting again:
- Hello Cihsai. Please see User talk:EdJohnston#Editor Cihsai. You may respond there if you wish. It appears that you have been constantly reverting a mention of Armenians from the lead of this article, for example here. If you have a reason for doing this, one would expect you to present it on the article's talk page. There are no posts by you on the talk page since 2008. The background for this issue is the WP:ARBAA2 arbitration case, which I can explain if you are curious. If you don't choose to respond, you'll probably be getting a formal warning under that case. Trying to force your point of view into the article by reverting is unlikely to work in any article that is subject to arbitration. You need to have reasons and you need to persuade the other editors. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 19:44, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Cihsai made a response to my notice which I didn't find convincing. After issuing an ARBAA2 warning, I offered these further suggestions:
- You have not participated at Talk:Hemshin since 2008. Yet here you are on 6 November 2013 in this diff where you remove a claim about Armenian origin at the same time as you remove the reference which was intended to support it. If you don't believe that Simonian's book on the Hemshin is a good reference for the claim of Armenian origin, you could try asking for an opinion at WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. In the past year you have reverted the lead 12 times. This looks to be a case of long-term edit warring. If anyone agreed with you, you would not be the only one removing this material. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 00:47, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
After this exchange, Cihsai did leave a comment on talk on 14 November, but he did not wait to persuade the other editors on the talk page. He just went ahead and reverted the lead again on 24 November, 2013. At that point I decided to topic ban him from WP:ARBAA2. EdJohnston (talk) 23:24, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 1)
Statement by (involved editor 2)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Cihsai
Cihsai, please notify all of the editors you have mentioned by name of this appeal for their comments, and I ask that those comments be brief and on point.--Tznkai (talk) 21:22, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- Their contributions show that Cihsai is a single-purpose account dedicated to promoting a particular point of view about the Hemshin peoples through edit-warring. That is quite sufficient basis for discretionary sanctions (see in particular WP:EW and Wikipedia:ARBAB#Single purpose accounts). The article is within the topic area for which WP:ARBAA2#Standard discretionary sanctions authorizes discretionary sanctions, because the text Cihsai wants to remove concerns the possible Armenian origin of the Hemshin peoples. Although I might have scoped the ban to concern the Hemshin peoples only, its broader scope makes no practical difference because Cihsai has not edited about anything else. For these reasons, I would decline the appeal, but recommend that future sanctions are not explained in such a way that one might think that they were also made because of the content of the problematic edits, which would have been inadmissible under most circumstances. Sandstein 23:40, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with Sandstein. Cihsai appears to do almost nothing other than revert the same edit on the same page, with no serious attempt to resolve the edit war through discussion. This wouldn't be acceptable conduct in any topic area; that the conduct was in an area where tempers are already frayed and is thus under sanctions is clearly an aggravating factor. I believe the appeal should be dismissed and the topic ban upheld. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:37, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
- At this point I do not see grounds for an appeal, but I want to wait a reasonable period for Cihsai to notify other editors and make any other statements. Since this is an appeal, the only thing harmed by our taking more time is Chihsai.--Tznkai (talk) 17:25, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
- Agreed that this seems to be an appeal with very little chance of success. No attempts to discuss, SPA? The topic ban was the right step here. SirFozzie (talk) 18:26, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
- At this point I do not see grounds for an appeal, but I want to wait a reasonable period for Cihsai to notify other editors and make any other statements. Since this is an appeal, the only thing harmed by our taking more time is Chihsai.--Tznkai (talk) 17:25, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with Sandstein. Cihsai appears to do almost nothing other than revert the same edit on the same page, with no serious attempt to resolve the edit war through discussion. This wouldn't be acceptable conduct in any topic area; that the conduct was in an area where tempers are already frayed and is thus under sanctions is clearly an aggravating factor. I believe the appeal should be dismissed and the topic ban upheld. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:37, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by Cihsai
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
Barleybannocks
Barleybannocks is banned from the article Rupert Sheldrake and its talk page. TheRedPenOfDoom will take a voluntary six-month hiatus from the article and its talk page. TheRedPenOfDoom and Barney the barney barney are warned (again). Sandstein 17:18, 20 December 2013 (UTC) | ||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Barleybannocks
The article Rupert Sheldrake (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) has come under attack by a number of SPA and pseudoscience pushing accounts after Sheldrake recently made public comments about the article no longer presenting his ideas in the unquestioned fashion that he preferred. One of those SPAs is Barleybannocks. The user's refusal to come to terms with the fact that Sheldrake's work is widely considered pseudoscience (see [19] ) appears to be at the basis of their WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT editing on the talk page which makes it impossible to make any progress on the article and helps create Walls of Text that drive other more moderate editors away. Request that the user be banned from editing any pseudoscience articles or topics, broadly construed. (although the ban may only be needed for Rupert Sheldrake broadly construed as they are an SPA who have not touched any other articles.) -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:54, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
Regarding the outburst of colorful language- it comes in response to Barleybannocks, to quote the findings on this page " a WP:SPA focused on promoting one particular point of view with respect to Rupert Sheldrake, and do so by filling up the article talk page with an inordinate amount of verbiage. This is in violation of the rule to "keep discussions focused: Discussions naturally should finalize by agreement, not by exhaustion", a part of the guideline Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines, and is a case of "failure or refusal to 'get the point'", a type of disruptive editing described at WP:HEAR, part of the guideline Wikipedia:Disruptive editing." who had been arguing that: [21] is somehow evidence that there is a significant scientific following of Sheldrake, despite the fact that it had been pointed out to him what the contents actually said [22] he replies with not only the standard IDIDNOTHEARTHAT [23] but also with false accusations that I had removed sources from the article (my most recent edits had been 2 days before moving a picture to the infobox and using a different more accurate modifier , and 4 days prior to that to remove the names of non notable individuals) but also a personal attack claiming to know my motivations. Now that his disruptive presence is no longer going to be building walls of text I think that my positive contributions to the talk page should be taken into consideration. I believe that I have started the only two actions on the talk page that have been able to actually develop a consensus among the editors - [24] and [25] -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:56, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
Discussion concerning BarleybannocksStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by BarleybannocksOne final attempt I, and a number of others below (diffs available on request), and even after judgement was passed, have expressed some perplexity over the EXACT nature of the alleged offence here. I have previously requested some specific clarification but none has been forthcoming. It surely isn't the offence TRPoD originally charged me with since that has, to the best of my knowledge, not been discussed at all be the adjudicators following the initial appraisal wher it was felt the diffs provided by TRPoD showed nothing much of interest. Following that, the adjudicators focused (if focused is the right word) on a variety of fairly nebulous issues without coming right out and saying anything very much, while the critical comments from users below are a mixed bag of completely made up nonsense (EnricNaval's comment comes to mind) or else strange unsupported allegations about my supposed love for Sheldrake. I would therefore be grateful for a specific statement, with examples, of what the issue is here. I did raise this with Guy the first rime he warned me but he refused to explain further.[28] Can anyone do better now? I should also point out how difficult it is to defend oneself against charges when those doing the charging don't seem to know, or won't tell, what the charges actually are. Thus, I am innocent of the charge TRPoD raised, and nothing else specific has been forthcoming as far as I, or a number of others, can see. Now might be a good time to let the cat out of the bag. Thanks Re Sandstein's comment below about Barney and TRPoD only just getting the warnings. Are these the ones they only just got, TRPoD [29] and Barney [30] more than a month ago. Re EatsShootsandLeaves's rather amusing comment below about how to proceed, here's my suggestion: instead of the current banning of one side (the side who seems to actually know what they're talking about) which, it appears to me, has resulted in no real improvement in any of the articles where action through this forum has been required (I had a brief look and all the articles look crap) you split the two warring sides and give them a certain time (say, a month) to come up with an article of their own devising. Then all the experienced wikistrators can select the best article and you can begin again from there with the proviso that the losers don't destroy the winning version. If none of the articles are any good then you can advise all sides to leave since they obviously can't write articles worth a toss. Who knows, you might even get the odd good articleTM out of it. But hey, what use are good articles when there are wars to be had, punitive rules to be enforced ridiculously, and the great feeling one gets exercising big fish/small pond powers. Just a thought from someone with no understanding of WP philosophism.Barleybannocks (talk) 12:41, 20 December 2013 (UTC) And then there's Vzaak. What should we make of Vzaak? The new proud owner of a WP article. Took delivery in July 2013 and knew right away how to fix things. Knew so right, right away, in fact, that his first edit summary [31] makes reference to the arcane WP:UNDUE. Quick learner this Vzaak. Must have read all round policy and guidelines for a long time to come up with that first edit summary. I guess you do this when you're an SPA with only one article and one thing to advocate.[32][33][34] Disruption though, where's the disruption? Well there are of course the numerous neutral editors that have been bullied away by Vzaak and the others. Dodgy SPAs Like David in DC, and Lou Sander, and Olive, and Liz. But that's not disruption, that's just avoiding the disruption these editors might have cause on Vzaak's article. Much easier to build a non-disruptable consensus when they're all gone. Good work I say. Barleybannocks (talk) 12:12, 20 December 2013 (UTC) Re TRPoD, there's this also - where someone struck through one of the offending words and TRPoD put it right back.[35] I guess I (that is, me, that is, BarleyBannocks) was so annoying with all my sources and stuff, that TRPoD really really needed to tell Tom Butler (that is, Tom Butler, that is, not me) to "get fucking real". That is, I was so very very bad, that TRPoD just had to treat Tom Butler in this way, and then do it again for emphasis. My fault. @User:MastCell I note below that mastcell said I don't have any insight into why my behaviour was wrong. He's right, I don't. Largely because nobody here will explain it. With my lack of understanding in mind, then, I will set out a few thoughts about talk pages and then the senior representatives of Wikipedia below can explain why I am mistaken. I thought talk pages were for talking/discussing the content of the article, which is ALL that I have used them for. Others, however, use them for different reasons. TRPoD, for example, uses them to berate people in an abusive manner. Here,[36], here [37] and here [38] Or to engage in BLP-violating abuse of the subject of the article. Here, for example [39] This has all been reported to administrators but no action was taken. Once again, then, I would be grateful for an explanation of how TRPoD's editing is conducive to a constructive dialogue about the content of the article and why my editing is so very very wrong that I need to be banned for an indefinite period? If all that's required to be a good editor is that I speak to people in a foul manner and fill up talk pages with abuse about the subject of the article then I will set aside my natural politeness and comply. Thanks. Barleybannocks (talk) 22:18, 19 December 2013 (UTC) I tried to strike through my previous comment but couldn't so I'll leave it there as is. Below there seemed to be some confusion about the action here. Reading through it I see a lot of general commentary, some saying the action itself is raised wrongly, but very little in the way of specifics and certainly no clarification for me, a newish user, on what any of it means in a real sense - that is, in practice, as opposed to simply pointing at some words in policy which clearly don't mean what they ordinarily do. The issue, then, is that TRPoD was fairly clear about the reasons for this action: it is that I felt sources did not support the general categorisation of the subject matter of an article (eg, a man, his scientific theories and his philosophical views) as psuedoscience to the extent that Astrology is so regarded, and that by refusing to edit the article in line with that editors' source-contradicted opinion I was breaching some policy or other. I would be grateful for some specific statement about the EXACT nature of my offence here; some evidence of it being committed; and some explanation of Wikipedia's attitude to well-sourced reliable and relevant information being excluded from a BLP. Thanks Barleybannocks (talk) 16:43, 19 December 2013 (UTC) I don’t intend to offer any defence because I don’t think a defence is necessary. Instead I would like to ask the adjudicators here a few specific questions, and I would be very grateful for some specific answers. 1. Is Wikipedia primarily supposed to reflect: a) what reliable sources say; or b) can multiple reliable sources be overridden by a few editors’ opinions? 2. If the answer to the above question is (b), then should this not be made much clearer in policy etc, because as things stand they give the impression that Wikipedia should primarily be a reflection of what reliable sources say? (I would not, for example, have argued as I had had I known this was the case and had it been made clearer in policy/guidelines etc.) 3. If the answer to the first question is (a), then why is it inappropriate to say that “Sheldrake’s work has received a small degree of support from academics” in light of the following sources which are a sample of sources supporting/showing both the fact of, and the content of, some of Sheldrake’s academic support? Sources stating there has been support for Sheldrake within academia: David F. Haight, [40] Professor of Philosophy at Plymouth State University writing in The Scandal of Reason, published by the University Press of America says, “that Sheldrake's morphogenetic fields have been taken seriously by more physicists than biologists is to be expected.” [41] Bryan Appleyard, writing in the Sunday Times (a source already used in the article) says “Morphic resonance is widely derided and narrowly supported”.[42] Adam Lucas, [43] writing in 21.C says that “of all the scientific journals, New Scientist has undoubtedly been the most supportive of Sheldrake, having published a number of sympathetic articles on formative causation over the years." And this: "when he has not been ignored, however, Sheldrake's peers have expressed everything from outraged condemnation to the highest praise." But are these sources true? Yes, as it happens, here are some scientists and academics who have supported Sheldrake’s work: Nobel Laureate in Physics Brian David Josephson writing in Nature.[44] Marc Bekoff, Professor Emeritus of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at the University of Colorado, Boulder writing in Psychology Today.[45] Menas Kafatos, the Fletcher Jones Endowed Professor of Computational Physics and the Director of the Center of Excellence at Chapman University – Huffington Post [46] Stuart Hameroff Professor of Anesthesiology and Psychology, Director, Center for Consciousness Studies, The University of Arizona – Huffington Post [47] Rudolph E. Tanzi,[48] Joseph P. and Rose F. Kennedy Professor of Neurology at Harvard University, Director of the Genetics and Aging Research Unit at Massachusetts General Hospital – Huffington Post [49] Neil Theise,[50] Professor, Pathology and Medicine, (Division of Digestive Diseases) Beth Israel Medical Center - Albert Einstein College of Medicine, New York – Huffington Post [51] All four of the above wrote a letter, published in the Huffington Post supporting the scientific content of Sheldrake’s TEDx talk (which included a discussion of morphic resonance) and about which they say "there was not a hint of bad science in it". Hameroff also said that Sheldrake’s work could be accounted for by his own theory of consciousness developed in association with Roger Penrose Further scientific/academic support for Sheldrake. David Bohm FRS, who collaborated with Sheldrake on connection between his implicate order and Sheldrake’s morphic resonance with a dialogue published in the peer-reviewed journal ReVision Hans-Peter Durr Physicist, who wrote about Sheldrake’s work in connection with quantum Physics Theodore Roszak Professor Emeritus of history at California State University, East Bay writing in New Scientist [52] Mary Midgley writing in the Guardian [53] Paul Davies Physics professor at Arizona State University as well as the Director of BEYOND: Center for Fundamental Concepts in Science John Gribbin Atrophysicist, and a visiting fellow in astronomy at the University of Sussex A final point One other WP:DEADHORSE I have been flogging is that Sheldrake is a biologist and this well known (and extraordinarily well-sourced) fact should not be removed from the first sentence of the lede as it constantly is, [54] contra BLP and clear Wikipedia precedence. If needed I can provide 100 reliable sources for this from every conceivable type of source/individual/institution. Here are four from the New York Times alone which, I believe, are not included in the more than 25 currently cited on talk. [55] [56] [57] [58] All in all, then, I feel I have been arguing for the inclusion of a few well sourced points, and the amount of discussion on the talk page generated is purely a function of the total disregard for sources of some of the editors there. I await your responses to the questions above. Please note this is not a point about content per se, but about Wikipedia policy as regards content using this as an example. Thank you. Statement by Barney the barney barneyI agree with TheRedPenOfDoom (talk · contribs). We have been extremely patient with this SPA, who continues to insist on some kind of exception from the WP:REDFLAG issues with this article that result in WP:FRINGE according to any WP:COMMONSENSE approach. Every flaming discussion meanwhile descends into a discussion in which Barleybannocks (talk · contribs) repeatedly raises the same old tired long-refuted criticisms, e.g. he makes a claim that "morphic resonance" is scientifically supported. He is asked to provide citations to peer reviewed journals. He can't. He is told that without these citations there is no scientific support for Sheldrake. In another thread, he makes a claim that "morphic resonance" is scientifically supported. There are a group of consensus builders on this article, which I believe include Vzaak (talk · contribs), Jzg (talk · contribs), TheRedPenOfDoom (talk · contribs), Roxy the dog (talk · contribs), QTxVi4bEMRbrNqOorWBV (talk · contribs) and Bobrayner (talk · contribs). Barleybannocks (talk · contribs) is out of this group. Barney the barney barney (talk) 22:20, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
Statement by iantresmanBarleybannocks does not disagree with Arb/PS and has stated many times, that he accepts that some scientists consider Sheldrake's work to be pseudoscience, and is happy to describe it as such.[59][60][61] He (and other editors) merely disagrees with how to quantify it. TRPoD and other editors are confusing disagreement with dissent. Barleybannocks is not alone in his position, and there are several other editors who support the same view. But most editors have stopped discussing the article because of the difficulty in making progress, AE threats[62][63][64][65][66] (see also "Persistent Bullying of Rupert Sheldrake Editors", and offensive editing behavior[67][68][69][70][71] I should mention that I have not edited the article for nearly 2 years, and of the edits I made before then, I haved include a quote consistent with Arb/PS (that Maddox considered Shelrake's work to be pseudoscience), and all my edits are still in the article (ie. I have a 100% editing record). I also feel I have also been intimidated by other editors[72] including adminstrators[73] that I robustly rebutted despite there being not one diff in support of the allegation. --Iantresman (talk) 01:55, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
@Mangoe. Removed by an administrator as a discussion about content. Please limit statements to pertinent submissions of evidence about editor conduct. Sandstein 16:14, 18 December 2013 (UTC) @Sandstein @Mangoe Unfortunately I am not allowed to discuss content further, which I addressed in my now-deleted post. Looks like you can have your cake and eat it. --Iantresman (talk) 17:00, 18 December 2013 (UTC) @74 At your request, I have removed Tumbleman from the list of "consensus" editors above, although I actually disagree, but he is not here to speak for himself. I felt his discussions were reasoned and constructive, and his infinite ban was out of proportion to his actual socking. --Iantresman (talk) 21:28, 18 December 2013 (UTC) @Callanecc As noted by 40% of the editors, ie., myself, talk, Littleolive oil, Tom Butler, Liz, Alfonzo Green and 74, it is not that one-sided. Please give me some extra time to find some diffs demonstrating WP:DISRUPTSIGNS by other editors (we have day jobs!) --Iantresman (talk) 09:23, 19 December 2013 (UTC) @Sandstein. I had requested that Barney the barney barney should either provided diffs, or strikethough his allegations against me, which you endorsed per WP:ASPERSIONS. It may be just an oversight, and of no consequence to anyone else, but it is an important per WP:WIAPA. --Iantresman (talk) 09:32, 19 December 2013 (UTC) @MastCell, I would be grateful if you would answer my query above. Callanecc stated that "like Sandstein, at first thought the supplied diffs were quite benign", so clearly you have all found some relevant information; would you all please provide the diffs, it is only fair to Barleybannocks, and makes this process more transparent and accountable. --Iantresman (talk) 09:54, 19 December 2013 (UTC) @Callanecc, (1) now that you have taken action against Barleybannocks, and echoing my comment to MastCell, I would still to see the diffs which contributed towards the decision. (2) I will have the diffs that Arbitrators have requested regarding other editors, this evening. --Iantresman (talk) 12:24, 19 December 2013 (UTC) Diffs suggesting signs of disruption I offer some diffs and discussion which suggest consistency with WP:DISRUPTSIGNS. As it is a little wordy, I've stuck it in a collapse box, but wanted to provide as much useful explanation as possible. Hopefully it is without prejudice, a concept I hope that everyone is familiar. Note: apparently some are having problems viewing the diffs and returning to this page. I suggest holding down the Shift key when you click the diff, in order to open it in another Tab/Window (middle mouse button on a mac). --Iantresman (talk) 09:41, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
--Iantresman (talk) 01:52, 20 December 2013 (UTC) @vzaak. Quite correct and undisputed. And when "sources" have been provided which claimed that Sheldrake is pseudoscience, when in fact they do not, for example, they question his science, and editors infer it should mean pseudoscience (per WP:SYNTH), there is no similar outburst from editors that criticise, or even an acknowledgement that this is a valid issue. --Iantresman (talk) 09:49, 20 December 2013 (UTC) @Callanecc & Sandstein & MastCell You all requested seeing evidence concerning other editors "with diffs and explanations". I did just that, and it appears to have been overlooked. I have no problem if the evidence is not compelling, is insufficient, considered plain wrong, or whatever, but the least someone could do is acknowledge it. --Iantresman (talk) 13:13, 20 December 2013 (UTC) @Sandstein Thank you for your comment. The first two section almost exclusively mention another editor by name nine times, and every diff includes a date. Would you like me to extract the dates and highlight the names? Are times, time-zone specific? How should I present "diffs and explanations"? --Iantresman (talk) 13:29, 20 December 2013 (UTC) @Callanecc Thank you for your comment, drawing a line under the issue at this point seems reasonable. --Iantresman (talk) 14:12, 20 December 2013 (UTC) @Admins. I would like admins to reconsider the duration of the sanctions compared to each editor. BB is an new editor, the diffs supplied were found to be "benign", and no other diffs were supplied supporting evidence of wrong doing. The pointer to "this post" also included not one diff in support of the allegations. An indefinite ban seems excessive and disproportionate. --Iantresman (talk) 14:31, 20 December 2013 (UTC) @Admin. I have to agree with Barleybannocks, he deserves to know what diffs support the sanctions against him. The pointer to "this post" includes not one diff in support of the allegations. This has been echoed by Lou Sander, Littleolive oil, Tom Butler, and Liz --Iantresman (talk) 16:44, 20 December 2013 (UTC) Statement by AskahrcI'm sorry, but is the standard for disruption simply having a different opinion? No actual misconduct was demonstrated, and as far as I can tell the only accusation is that Barleybannocks does not agree with tRPoD's opinions. For crying out loud, there wasn't even a clear policy that was supposedly violated, but rather Barleybannocks is up for blocking because tRPoD doesn't think he believes Sheldrake is pseudoscience, despite the fact he's done nothing abusive with that opinion. Guess what, editors are allowed to think whatever they want, and if you disagree with it, too bad! Make your argument and see what the evidence, policies and community lead to, but you don't have the right to declare what opinions are permissible. If they're abusive with their bias, that's one thing, but trying to ban someone because you feel they don't have the right to their opinion is unacceptable and unwarranted. The fact that tRPoD went on to proclaim that anyone who doesn't agree with him/her that Sheldrake is a pseudoscientist should be blocked is a shockingly repugnant statement. (let's dispense with hiding behind some extra-contextual comment of iantresman) What was all that people said in my ArbReq about there not being any intimidation or bullying on the Sheldrake page? tRPoD, you've done a lot of productive work over the years and were the first person to welcome me to WP; it's incredibly disheartening to see how this dysfunctional page has brought out the worst in people I generally admire. The Cap'n (talk) 06:57, 17 December 2013 (UTC) Statement by WntIn a brief period of editing from 3-15 December I tried to get rid of Rupert_Sheldrake#Notes, which seems to showcase negative arguments contrary to BLP recommended style, and to introduce a brief summary of one of his essays, which was reverted six minutes later.[109] In the end I abandoned it as hopeless; I suspected the issue might end up here but I never expected TRPOD and Barney3 to be the ones to do that! I am a strong proponent of "letting the subject have his say" in any biographical article by detailing the content of his writings, no matter whether that is taken by observers to be favorable or unfavorable to how he is perceived. I do not believe that WP:FRINGE prohibits us from describing what Sheldrake said. To the contrary, I see that as the primary purpose of this article! And I think that when you look closely, while some ideas he has about morphogenesis are pseudoscience in that I know of many well documented alternate explanations, his comments about other topics, such as the relation of dark energy and perpetual creation of energy, or the nature of consciousness, for which there is little if any scientific truth known, do not really stand apart from "scientific" explanations. By contrast, TRPOD has declared that an article about Sheldrake could be reorganized into
which does not suggest to me that he is willing to give the man a fair hearing for each of his ideas. Now I cannot speak to how the article may have been biased before, but the problem right now is that a few avowed skeptics are preventing the topic of the article from being presented (and also vowing to oppose any attempt to split off articles about the concepts Sheldrake advocates). I agree that we don't have creationism in an article about evolution, but we don't write an article about a creationist by saying "he's wrong, all wrong" a hundred times. Wnt (talk) 15:59, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Lou SanderWhere to begin? BarleyBannocks is said to be posting too much on the talk page, maybe disrupting discussion. As I see it, he is carrying all the water for those who want to see this BLP more fairly descriptive of the man it is about. The others have been driven away by persistent bad behavior, e.g., [111] by the group that claims to be aiming for consensus. In carrying all that water, Barleybannocks is necessarily doing a lot of posting. Rarely editing the article, Barleybannocks mostly makes polite and reasoned arguments on the talk page. Most of his posts are discussions with others about sources. Again and again he provides the sources that others demand, and again and again the others disregard them, or misread them, or in some other way diminish them. They demand that sources commenting positively about Sheldrake be from peer-reviewed journals, yet their claims of "pseudoscience" rest on lesser things, such as the comments in books by portfolio managers, cultural advisors to corporations, and non-scientist science writers. To me, Barleybannocks seems to be working diligently toward consensus, in an environment where many others seem to be working against it. Lou Sander (talk) 16:28, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
Comment by Littleolive oilDisclaimer: I have no position on Sheldrake one way or the other. I have a strong position on BLPs, and on railroading and removing editors one is in dispute with. TRPOD has made at least as many comments to the talk of the Sheldrake article as has Barleybannocks or multiple other editors in that discussion. Unless AE is making a decision as to what is the accurate content, and I hope this isn't the case since that would be outside the remit of AE, then no parties on either side can be considered in this forum to be either wrong or right in their concerns about this article. Singling out any editor because they have expressed and hold an opinion that the other side considers to be wrong means AE is taking a position, is supporting one position over another and is non neutral. I agree that disputes about content should be taken to an RfC. Contentious articles require patience and the ability to understand that there is never one side to anything . Assuming so is simplistic thinking. Rather than attempting to rubber stamp WP articles with a pseudoscience or even fringe label, I'd suggest editors take the slower, more careful and more thoughtful approach-deal with every contentious edit with patience, entertaining every editor's input. If there's long term contention get outside input. This board should be for clear and obvious misbehaviur supported by accurate diffs supporting the decision. And as idealistic as it sounds, truth.(Littleolive oil (talk) 16:40, 17 December 2013 (UTC))
What I am pointing to is a system that cannot in many instances work fairly. And anyone on Wikipedia who thinks a lack of fairness, bias and bigotry is fine and doesn't hurt the encyclopedia in a long run needs to rethink how that lack of fairness would hurt them. Ultimately what I am describing are the elements of a squabble in which all the players have added something. Un tangling which of those somethings/additions constitutes some violation of the arbitration is difficult if not impossible. Ludwigs2 before he left suggested a system where mediator or "sheriff" comes into a contentious article to police behaviour. While that idea did not become an active guideline, it has merit in cases like this one - the appointment of someone willing to mediate on the page, and with the backing of the AE admin. If the sherif sees problems which the combatants won't solve peacefully, back they come to AE and with an uninvolved editor who has been collecting diffs of problem users. One advantage of this is that all editors are scrutinized on the article.(Littleolive oil (talk) 18:57, 18 December 2013 (UTC))
PS If someone else wants to take this please feel free. Definitely not attached. :O}(Littleolive oil (talk) 00:17, 19 December 2013 (UTC))
Statement by MangoeI have to count myself involved in this though I have done very little to edit the article. At least part of the reason is because I do not have the time to deal with the torrent of words on the talk page. Sheldrake is, rather obviously, someone who did some important work at one point but then went off on a radical new ideas kick (and some of them, most particularly the animal intuition thesis, are not at all new) in which he set himself up as a sort of Martin Luther against the Scientific Establishment. As I've had cause to say several times in these discussions, nobody seems to care all that much about anything except his scientific heresies. So if there are balance problems in that wise, all contenders are on the same (and presumably wrong) side. TO fix that, they would all have to be locked out of the article. But the real problem seems to be that there is a core group of a few editors, including Barleybannocks, who want the article to leave open the question of whether Shedrake's ideas have merit, if not actually support them. They are abetted by the usual cast of editors who try to blunt Wikipedia's negative coverage of pseudoscientific and fringe material. Naturally, WP:FT/N people (myself included) show up, generally in opposition. What I see in BB's editing is an obvious bias, as shown in edits like this: "As it stands the article makes it appear as if Sheldrake's ideas have been subjected to scientific scrutiny and rejected. Almost nothing could be further from the truth. His ideas have, though, been ignored, and most of the criticism is not the result of any science being done but is largely opinion, often a priori, and on occasion from people who have later confessed to not even having read his work." The implication I am apparently supposed to draw is that Science hasn't passed a negative verdict on Sheldrake's theories, and that therefore we cannot consign these theories to the junk heap of bad science. This thesis pervades all of BB's discussion, with the subtext that it's really an open question as to whether science will eventually ratify his notions. Therefore every response that can be given the slightest positive spin is played up, and negative assessments (frequently by the same people) are minimized if not blatantly misrepresented. BB's supporters are trying to cast this as a tone of discourse issue because it is certainly true that the main anti-fringe antagonists have not possessed the relentless civility of Sheldrake's supporters. But we're not here to reward nice people with control of the article, and I recall that some of the most persistent fringe pushers (see for example User:Paul Bedson) were generally quite polite. The root problem is that BB, along with others, is trying to portray Sheldrake as someone whose theories are plausible, rather than someone who is pushing ideas which are plainly pseudoscientific. Mangoe (talk) 17:49, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
Statement by The Devil's AdvocateThe Red Pen of Doom's statement above that essentially anyone who disagrees with him should be banned from the article is just one in a series of inappropriate comments he has made regarding this issue. In addition to this comment noted by Wnt where he responded to Barley's suggestions for re-organizing the article with some derogatory "suggestions" of his own, there is also his comment mocking Sheldrake by implying "morphic resonance" was something he came up with while high on drugs. Indeed, his initial remarks make clear his intent was to disparage Sheldrake and his ideas with such an implication.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 17:54, 17 December 2013 (UTC) Statement by Tom ButlerIt is telling that, when I proposed the editors "Delete or separate theory from biography" in the article, Bareny3, one of TRPOD's solders, fired back with "Not happening..." My objective was to find a way to explain to the reader that Sheldrake's hypotheses are generally not well accepted by mainstream science while treating his BLP in a respectable way. Virtually all of the other articles in Wikipedia about a man and his/her work separate the subject from the person in multiple articles. Why is Sheldrake being treated differently? Virtually every effort by conservative editors to balance the article by saying "This is who the man is" from "This is what mainstream scientists think of the theory" have been blocked by pretty much three editors with TRPOD out front. The impression is that this is not about a quality article but about bashing the person. "Wikipedia wants to bash the person!" is the way the public is seeing it now. I second Lou Sander's statement that "BarleyBannocks is carrying all the water for those who want to see this BLP more fairly descriptive of the man it is about." That fact, I think, is why there has been an effort to eliminate opposing editors like him. The tactic is clearly "Do not compromise, eliminate the editors with an opposing viewpoint and stonewall until everyone gives up." @the administrators -- I have a longtime love-hate view of Wikipedia that began when I was bullied and slandered over the Electronic voice phenomenon article. It tookk you guys years to finally block the ringleader in that battle, ScienceApologist. Of course, I fought back off wiki. Every time an editor is "purged" as TRPOD is trying to do here with BarleyBannocks, and as has been successfully done with other moderate editors involved in this article, there is at leas some pushback in the off-wiki community. That is accumulating, as witness the new book by editor Creig Weiler about the Sheldrake, TED/Wikipedia scandle. As it is going now, the Sheldrake article is producing way too much push-back from the off-wiki community. That can be remediated with a little effort to moderate the article but that is going to take your help. Banning moderate editors, driving off editors by wearing them down and intimidation, refusing to allow a more moderate description that has been shown to have good support in fact, only fuels the push-back and further harms Wikipedia. Please stop playing Solomon and try to keep this article from being a black eye for Wikipedia! Tom Butler (talk) 18:49, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Enric NavalSheldrake's latest ideas have clearly been rejected by most scientists. And by "most" I mean "almost every single scientist". From my observations, Barleybannocks seems to be grasping at straws to claim that there is more support for Sheldrake's ideas than there really is. Midgley's review is one of the very few positive reviews of Sheldrake's work, and Barleybannocks seems to be milking this source to give the (misleading) impression that there is support for Sheldrake. This topic is under discretionary sanctions. Relentless advocacy and SPA-ness is supposed to be a cause for a topic ban in such topics. This behaviour is sufficient to get a topic ban. Or at least for getting a warning that will get them topic banned if they keep up the advocacy. You shouldn't wait until after good editors get burned and abandon the article. Discretionary sanctions are supposed to cut this behaviour at the root, so please use them. --Enric Naval (talk) 20:21, 17 December 2013 (UTC) Statement by vzaakGiven the sustained push by Barleybannocks to the Sheldrake article and talk page, I had expected an eventual AE (as suggested by JzG[118]), though I did not expect it this soon. We could argue about whether there is enough WP:ROPE here, but cost of ROPE is expensive, as it ties up everyone's time. Barleybannocks is the next SPA to show up following the extensive off-site canvassing from pro-paranormal sites (including from the subject of the article). The pattern is common: very long arguments in talk, user appears to lack a basic understanding of how science works, user doesn't get the point, user continues making tendentious edits anyway, repeat. Take for example my last conversation with Barleybannocks, from which I show the tail-end only (!) of it: [119][120][121][122][123][124][125][126][127][128][129][130][131][132] (note therein Barleybannocks accuses me of being disingenuous). In that long conversation I had been spectacularly unsuccessful in conveying to Barleybannocks the importance of not misrepresenting the scientific support for "morphic resonance" (for which there is none). Barleybannocks ignored the whole conversation and warred again to put in his change,[133] along with the absurd edit comment "this is now well established...". Contrary to the picture painted by others above, Barleybannocks has in fact edited the article extensively, and played a significant role in the lead-up to the 1RR being imposed. Were this simply a matter of opinion among editors, we wouldn't be in AE. No, this is part of a continued push, initiated from off-wiki, to drop the pseudoscience designation in the Sheldrake article. That is, this is a push to violate WP policies. Barleybannocks explicitly states that he/she will continue pushing the point -- continue flooding the talk page and taking up the time of editors -- rather than accepting the clear consensus and moving on to some other point. This doesn't fit into the "ban dissent" metaphor that others have suggested. Off-wiki canvassing aims to slant the article in a way that is contrary to WP policies. Wikipedia suffers when editors need to spend more time on one article being targeted from off-site. The canvassing is expected to increase with upcoming events. Whether an explicit aim or not, the effect is to exhaust the non-canvassed editors. AE should step in to prevent an article being manipulated from off-site in this way. vzaak 19:58, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
Second statement by vzaakPlease consider the following before ruling on this AE. First let us examine one of the diffs Iantresman has proffered against TRPoD, "You are either incompetent or trolling". Here is the context:
Indeed each one of Iantresman's diffs has a proper context. Another case Iantresman references is Alfonzo Green's quote-mining of Richard Wiseman which culminated in the hugely disruptive (and then ignored) NPOVN thread.[154] Alfonzo tried to use Wiseman's quote "there may well be something going on" to suggest that Wiseman -- another nemesis of Sheldrake -- was admitting that dogs might be telepathic! Nothing could be further from the truth: when Wiseman said "there may well be something going on", he was pointing to possible defects in Sheldrake's experiments. This resulted in a well-deserved rebuke by Barney, "Looks like a pretty clear case of WP:COMPETENCE issues leading to WP:POV pushing".[155] Alfonzo Green's POV-pushing was disruptive, not Barney's calling out of the POV-pushing. And finally to address TRPoD's quote "nothing but a pseudoscientific huckster" and others. This is in fact a widely held view in the scientific community, and TRPoD is simply reflecting this view. Professor Jerry Coyne of the University of Chicago wrote an article titled "Pseudoscientist Rupert Sheldrake Is Not Being Persecuted, And Is Not Like Galileo"[156] in which he said that the "BBC World Service itself is being played a fool by Sheldrake" by lending a credulous ear to the conspiracy theories that Sheldrake was promoting. TRPoD and Barney should nowise be penalized for calling out blatant misrepresentations and stating plainly what many in the scientific community believe to be the case. vzaak 05:04, 20 December 2013 (UTC) Statement of LizThe evidence is talk page comments where the editor is expressing a point of view. I didn't see any diffs of actual edits to the article in question. As long as it is not offensive or hostile, editors should not be penalized for their opinions, however contrary they might be to other editors. Liz Read! Talk! 22:35, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
Statement of admin JzGYou know me, I can't resist trying to fix stuff, and I am (obviously) inclined to the scientific rationalist viewpoint. However, I am also a strong advocate of WP:BLP and have suffered real-world harassment as a result of defending contentious BLPs against agenda accounts, and defending Wikipedia against angry BLP subjects. I am an OTRS volunteer, I am absolutely on top of the impact of Wikipedia on real people's real lives. I support a topic ban at this stage. Nothing else is likely to work. I have tried to explain to Barleybannocks (BB) how to work productively with others, how to achieve changes, the types of sources required and so on, but all I get back is a broken record. I could cite half a dozen WP:CAPITALS references, but in the end BB is a single purpose account who is here to Right Great Wrongs rather than collaborate to document the world as reliable independent sources portray it. I have several times invited BB to propose an existing para, a proposed new compromise para, and the reliable independent sources that support the change and to achieve consensus for the change, the response has been insistence that compromise is equal to accepting BB's demands in their entirety. It's all starting to feel a bit BTDT. Our best content is written by those who can "write for the enemy" and work with people whose views are diametrically opposed. BB is the exact opposite: obdurate, perceives their own biases as neutrality, refuses to accept that any other POV is valid. As a massive time-sink that is actively preventing progress on a contentious BLP, it is time to draw a line under this one. If BB wants to help make Wikipedia great, for FSM's sake please do it somewhere else. Guy (Help!) 00:31, 18 December 2013 (UTC) Statement of Alfonzo GreenBB has been no more of a broken record than TRPoD, vzaak and Barney3. All three have repeatedly violated NPOV by engaging in a dispute rather than merely reporting it. Specifically all three contend that Sheldrake's work is "generally considered pseudoscience" and that all editors working on the Sheldrake bio must operate under this condition. Yet we have only a handful of sources that make this claim. It's a fringe opinion with little support in the scientific community, of which Sheldrake is obviously a member. The vast majority of sources refer to Sheldrake as a scientist while noting that his work falls outside the mainstream of scientific theory. His most notable concept, morphic resonance, has been mostly ignored by his peers. This fact in no way implies that his peers regard it as pseudoscience. The only thing we know for sure is that his hypothesis has no bearing on the standard biochemical approach to development from the egg. So long as TRPoD, vzaak and Barney3 can revert edits that seek to restore neutrality to the Sheldrake bio, the dead horse will continue to be beaten. This problem will not go away until all editors refrain from participating in the dispute and agree to merely report it. Since none of these editors has shown any willingness to treat Sheldrake in a neutral manner, I suggest that all three be banned from editing the article. Here's TRPoD's contention: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Rupert_Sheldrake&diff=586402432&oldid=586396688 Here's vzaak's contention: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Rupert_Sheldrake&diff=585597445&oldid=585595772 Here Barney3 chimes in to support vzaak's pseudoscience charge (though using the term pre-scientific): https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Rupert_Sheldrake&diff=585635345&oldid=585628894 And Barney3 further reveals his bias by claiming that Sheldrake can't be referred to as a scientist though this is how the vast majority of secondary sources refer to him: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Rupert_Sheldrake&diff=585820490&oldid=585820381 Alfonzo Green (talk) 12:59, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
Statement by jpsI really don't like these processes, so let me exxplain what's happening. Barleybannocks(BB) is a new editor who was likely attracted to the Sheldrake article's flame by the modicum of publicity this article has received from Sheldrake supporters on external sites and, to a lesser extent, the mainstream media (New Republic and sfgate have included commentary surrounding Deepak Chopra's anger that skeptics edit this particular article). BB got involved in this contentious article and has been acculturated to one of the most toxic editing environments you can find on this websites. Consequently, much of his problematic behavior seems to stem from this. The environment, ideally, should be changed, but this will not happen as long as agendas are allowed to take center stage on the talkpage and in the history of the article itself. BB typically shows two behaviors that I have found tiresome: 1) focusing on favored sources while ignoring disfavored sources, and 2) demanding that others with whom he disagrees produce talkpage content to satisfy his beliefs as to how discussion or editorializing should proceed. However, I do think the editor serves a valuable purpose in giving a perspective that is likely to closely mirror that of the subject of the article. Banning him will likely result in either Alfonzo or Lou stepping in to try to fill his shoes, and in a few days or weeks we'll be back. What is needed is a referee who is WP:COMPETENT in the material to end archive talkpage discussions that are pointless and encourage the (admittedly few) threads that actually lead toward collaborative editing in line with policies and avoiding promtionalism or obsessive-rejoinderism. Until or unless you guys find someone capable and willing to take on this task (an actual EDITOR in the publishing sense, not in the Wikipedia sense), this infection will simply continue to fester. jps (talk) 16:39, 18 December 2013 (UTC) Statement by 74
Statement by User:EatsShootsAndLeavesFollowing this dicussion (including this sidebar), I am simply convinced about three things about Barleybannocks: 1) they are woefully misunderstanding the Wikipedia philosophy, beginning with the 5 pillars in toto; 2) they tremendously misunderstand policy, process, and community norms as a whole; and 3) they have ZERO desire to learn them - insisting that their interpretation of things and their rules are paramount, and that it's WE who must bend. He's simply using the issue of Sheldrake as an example (although he's bizarrely and ironically passionate about the subject). We have seen this progression from editors like this before: in no time, they're simply going to martyr themselves (and their personal attack this morning might just be the beginning of that). How then does the community respond to those unwilling to learn from the community? Mentoring? Blocks? Further topic bans? ES&L 12:10, 20 December 2013 (UTC) Result concerning BarleybannocksThis section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above. I fail to see how any of the diffs cited in the request are actionable misconduct. Discretionary sanctions are authorized as a response to violations of Wikipedia's conduct rules. Merely expressing the opinion (even a mistaken opinion) that something isn't pseudoscience doesn't violate any conduct rule that I am aware of, and no such rule is cited in the request. Whether Rupert Sheldrake's work should be described as pseudoscience in the article about him is a content dispute that can't be decided in this forum, and whether it is pseudoscience for the purpose of applying discretionary sanctions (as does seem likely from a glance at the article) does not need to be decided here because, as I said, there is no sanctionable misconduct. In the present form, the request borders on the frivolous, and TheRedPenOfDoom should be warned not to make such requests again, as they can create a chilling effect that stifles discussion.If there is a case for action here, it is not well presented in the request. Some types of talk page conduct, such as writing walls of text and failing to engage with others, can be seen as misconduct, but we'd need evidence in the form of dated recent diffs of such misconduct. Sandstein 06:05, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
TheRedPenOfDoomBarleybannocks and others have now supplied evidence of talk page misconduct by TheRedPenOfDoom. That includes needlessly coarse and intimidating language, which suppresses collegial discussion (e.g., "And I dont fucking like is (sic) you making assumptions about what I fucking like"), and violations of WP:BLP with respect to the article subject ("a psuedoscientific (sic) huckster). On that basis, I believe a ban from the topic of Rupert Sheldrake is appropriate for TheRedPenOfDoom also. Sandstein 22:34, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
It should be noted that TRPoD has not, as far as I can tell, been explicitly warned about this (unlike Barleybannocks who was warned and material efforts were made to help him avoid topic banning). I have now warned TRPoD based on a particularly egregious example. I think this is premature, but probably not by much as TRPoD has been around long enough to know better. The talk page needs more light and less heat, and TRPoD is not currently part of that, let's see if a warning has any effect. Guy (Help!) 10:47, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
Given that TRPoD is the only other editor against whom we were considering a sanction I believe we can now close this request. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 12:14, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
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