Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard
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This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN.
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| Case | Created | Last volunteer edit | Last modified | ||||
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| Title | Status | User | Time | User | Time | User | Time |
| Nivkh alphabets | In Progress | Modun (t) | 16 days, 8 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 2 days, 6 hours | Modun (t) | 1 days, 15 hours |
| Wudu | In Progress | Nasserb786 (t) | 7 days, 18 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 1 days, 11 hours | Nasserb786 (t) | 17 hours |
| Dog fashion | New | RteeeeKed (t) | 5 days, 7 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 5 hours | RteeeeKed (t) | 3 hours |
| Talk:Thunderball (novel) | New | Moneyofpropre (t) | 2 days, 17 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 1 days, 1 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 1 days, 1 hours |
| Amdahl's law | Closed | Jys673 (t) | 2 days, 10 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 2 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 2 hours |
| Repressed memory | Closed | NpsychC (t) | 2 days, 4 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 1 days, 11 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 1 days, 11 hours |
| Repressed memory | New | NpsychC (t) | 7 hours | None | n/a | NpsychC (t) | 7 hours |
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Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 04:46, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
Current disputes
Talk:MLS Soccer Sunday#July 2015: This article needs additional citations for verification.
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | There has been no participation in this dispute, even after a 48hr closing notice. This issue may be brought back to this noticeboard if the parties are still willing to work the issue out in the future. Regards, Scorch (talk | ctrb) 04:43, 1 August 2015 (UTC) |
| Closed discussion |
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Filed by Mikeylito on 05:08, 26 July 2015 (UTC).
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved Dispute overview There is a disagreement about the use of date formats in the article. I'm also not happy with the tone of the talk page discussion. I feel it was less than civil. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Once I was clear on what required cleanup, I went and resolved the issues with one exception which I addressed on the talk page. However, with explanation, I did revert the dates to dmy format as I originally posted the article. How do you think we can help? I am seeking additional opinions on what took place on this incident. I'm particularly disturbed because rather than explaining my original question on the talk page, the other editor just made wholesale changes without continuing the talk page discussion. Summary of dispute by Walter GörlitzPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
The subjects, both the league and networks, are American and so should use MDY per WP:STRONGNAT. That's the format I applied: mdy. WP:DATERET takes a back seat to STRONGNAT as is seen from the second sentence of DATERET. As for civility, my tagging of the whole article was questioned so I removed the general tag and tagged specific sentences. I was then questioned as to why I changed date format and a lengthy response was made, which showed what I believed to be a misunderstanding of the MoS. I simply responded that STRONGNAT applied, as it does. No insulting. No edit warring. No incivility. I made no wholesale changes and I did continue talk page discussion. I made three explained changes:
Only after these changes were made did discussion start on talk page. I then changed the general tag to specific ones as described above, and realizing that the date format was wrong for the subject, applied the correct date format. I read the lecture incorrectly asserting DATERET and replied, then MDY again . I'd be happy to see revert whatever wholesale changes I made without discussing after I see what they are. I don't understand any of the complaints. I would suggest complainant read WP:OWN. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:41, 26 July 2015 (UTC) Talk:MLS Soccer Sunday#July 2015: This article needs additional citations for verification. discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
48 hr closing notice
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Talk:Royce Gracie#Royce Gracie_BJJ_matches
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | Seeing as CrazyAces489 has not edited in three weeks (and is semi-retired) and the other party has not responded in a few days, plus there being multiple other cases here awaiting discussion, I'm going to go ahead and close this dispute. If need be, it can be brought back to this noticeboard in the future. Regards, Scorch (talk | ctrb) 11:11, 30 July 2015 (UTC) |
| Closed discussion |
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Filed by SubSeven on 01:56, 28 July 2015 (UTC).
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview The (BLP) article in question is Royce Gracie, a former mixed martial arts athlete. The other party in the dispute, CrazyAces489, has been trying to introduce a large number of edits to this article over a long period of time. All of these edits. without exception, are in some way discrediting to Royce Gracie. I have opposed all of these edits as I find them to be unsourced or very poorly sourced.
Many discussions on article talk page and user talk pages How do you think we can help? Weigh in on whether CrazyAces489's contributions to the article represent a proper application of WP:RS, WP:BLP, WP:NOR, and WP:NPOV Summary of dispute by CrazyAces489Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Talk:Royce Gracie#Royce Gracie_BJJ_matches discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Talk:Zindagi (TV channel)#Moving_forward
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | Two involved and essential parties have not provided statements, and no one has objected to the 24 hour closing notice I posted yesterday. This discussion may be reopened at any time if parties wish to return here. North of Eden (talk) 03:25, 7 August 2015 (UTC) |
| Closed discussion |
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Talk:Statewide opinion_polling_for_the_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries,_2016#Fix_the_map
– Discussion in progress.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
There were two polls conducted in Washington both within a day of each other. The PPP poll says Clinton has a 33% lead (margin of error: ± 5%) and the Gravis Marketing poll that was taken the next day says she has a 9% lead (margin of error: ± 6%). There is a map on the article that says Clinton's lead in Washington is less than 10%. But I wanted to stripe Washington with two colors to reflect that there is also another poll that says she has a 30-49% lead. The other user thinks that only the most recent poll should be used (even if it was taken the day after the second most recent poll), and striping should only be reserved for ties.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
We've been discussing it at the article's talk page.
How do you think we can help?
I think we need you guys to weigh in on whether or not striping Washington is appropriate. Also, you guys might be able to find a way we can compromise.
Summary of dispute by Nitroxium
As explained in the talk page, the article for the democratic primaries has been following the same format as the republicans in using the most recent polls for coloring the map. Prcc27 proposes we utilize stripes on the maps to show what he considers to be "conflicting polls." However, stripes in the statewide opinion polls (Repub and democrat) are being used for virtual ties. Beyond this, saying that the two polls are conflicting would be WP:OR as we would be making our on conclusions on what can be interpreted from the polls. What we can do and have done in this case is put a footnote saying that the colors on the map may be slightly innacurate due to margin of error which is an undisputed fact. However, both Washington polls that Prcc27 points out cannot be considered conflicting due to the very same margin of errors.
In the talk page of the article I have provided an example of why we cannot conclude through the polls that they are conflicting without it falling into WP:OR.
"First, you can't compare the results in PPP with the polls for Gravis including Elizabeth Warren. People could very easily switch from Clinton to Warren if she was an option in the primaries and there is absolutely no conflict there. Therefore, we must compare the results of PPP with the Gravis results WITHOUT Warren. In the PPP poll, she has 57% with a margin of error of 5%, meaning it could be a support of 52%. In the Gravis poll, she has a support of 45% with a margin of error of 6%, meaning it could be 51%. Likewise with Sanders, in PPP he has 24% which could be 29% and in Gravis he has 36% which could be 30%. Hence why if there was a change of 1% of support from Clinton to Sanders during the next few days (which is completely plausible), these two polls are not conflicting. I must add, the Gravis poll without Warren still includes De Blasio, which means there doesn't even have to be a 1% change of support in the next days. Clinton could have lost 2% to De Blasio in the Gravis poll. There's many possibilities."
Talk:Statewide opinion_polling_for_the_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries,_2016#Fix_the_map discussion
@Prcc27 and Nitroxium: I'm seeing extensive talk page discussion and am happy to take this case. I'll do a little more brushing up on the issues before asking a few questions. Thanks much, North of Eden (talk) 18:09, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
- I am going to be working on concluding the English football dispute above, but once that's concluded I will give my full attention to this issue. I plan to put up some substantive comments tomorrow morning in this section. Thanks, North of Eden (talk) 22:03, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
- @Prcc27 and Nitroxium: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the basic issue is whether stripes should indicate conflicting polling results or ties between candidates. In this event, I think it's crucial to look at the Republican primary page and at precedent for this page. The same-sex marriage page may be helpful as a guide, but opinion polling on social issues and candidate polling are pretty different things. North of Eden (talk) 19:04, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
- They are different things, but the issue the same-sex marriage map had is the same one the Democratic map has. I believe one user even said is was "fraud" to leave out conflicting polls on that map. It does take longer for a state to trend a certain way on social issues than opinion of candidates, but it's near impossible for a candidate's lead to change drastically in one day just like it is near impossible for a state to change drastically on social issues (with a few exceptions like President Obama coming out in favor of same-sex marriage) in 1 month. Just because the poll that says Clinton has a 9% lead was taken 1 day after a poll said she has a 33% lead doesn't mean her lead is less than 10%. I don't know if I'd call it "fraud" to leave out stripes for conflicting results, but it's certainly misleading- whether it's on a map for opinion polling on social issues or a map for opinion polling on candidates. It definitely won't hurt the map to provide more information- it would actually help the map. Prcc27 (talk) 20:28, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
- Again, saying they are conflicting polls is WP:OR, you are coming to your own conclusions about the polls. And the reason it's the same map is first of all, because you changed the map we were using before. Second of all, that is a basic map with no coloring on wikimedia that any editor can pick up and start using. You added that due to margin of errors, the colors may not reflect reality completely as a footnote and that is the step we had to take. Anything else would be WP:OR. We are following the format the republicans use. Nitroxium (talk) 03:34, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
- Pardon me, but unfortunately I don't even know what your second and third sentences are referring to.. Nonetheless, I feel like what I said on the article's talk page applies to your statement on here too: "You already explained to me that both polls are accurate with each other within 1%, but that's if and only if Clinton has a 21% lead which the map does not have Washington colored as. And it's not the polls that are conflicting, it's that the map doesn't take into account the margin of error, and quite frankly a footnote isn't enough. If readers see Washington striped with two colors and they see the margin of error footnote- they will be more likely to scroll down to find out why Washington is striped and to find out what those margin of errors for Washington are. Then they will be able to come to the conclusion that Clinton has about a 21% lead (which is pretty much what you concluded from the polls yourself) or they could come to the conclusion that Clinton does in fact have a less than 10% lead because the poll that says so is more recent. Regardless, purposely leaving out information on the map adds WP:UNDUE bias and may be fraudulent." Prcc27 (talk) 04:24, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
- I understand concerns about WP:OR; specifically, we can veer close to WP:SYNTH by comparing poll results. That said, I would encourange all to take a look at WP:What SYNTH is not. It's not considered original research to simply summarize an obvious truth; at least to me, conflicting polls would fall within that category, so long as the statement is free of any opinionated analysis. We still have the issue of how striping ought to be used on the map, and I'm interested in hearing more about that (and any additional discussion about WP:OR and simiilar issues, of course). Thanks, North of Eden (talk) 15:12, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
- Well the current map isn't set up for ties because unlike the GOP map- the Democratic map goes into detail about what percentage a candidate is leading by. If let's say Sanders and Clinton were tied in Vermont it wouldn't make sense to stripe Vermont "Sanders ahead, <10%" and "Clinton ahead, <10%" because neither candidate is ahead- both are tied. Instead, we could simply add a new color for tied states like blue or red. Prcc27 (talk) 03:39, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
- That sounds like an interesting idea; what do you think, User:Nitroxium? One of the nice things is we have more leeway than we would with the Republican page, as there's only two serious contenders, and only one who is experiencing polling variations of the type we're discussing. I'm interested to hear Nitroxium's perspective on this, so I can get a better handle on where we should proceed with our discussion. Thanks, North of Eden (talk) 00:31, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
- The whole basis of this discussion has been that the polls are conflicting and that simply cannot be 100% concluded from the information given. Therefore, any conclusion on them being conflicting would be WP:OR. As shown in the talk page of the article, the two polls are not necessarily conflicting but rather could be within a margin of error (ie. Clinton could have lost two points because of De Blasio in Washington). Therefore, drawing an arbitrary line of mixing two poll results together from two different sources just because they are a few days close to each other does not make sense to me. The poll articles (Both democrat and republican) have been absolutely clear on the fact that the map represents the absolutely most recent poll, despite the color possibly being subject to change due to margin of error or not. There are many intricacies about polls, survey methodology and pollsters to mix them into the same bag arbitrarily. I propose an alternative which is to add a footnote leaving a very clear message about the map representing the absolutely most recent poll and an invitation to scroll down and read the section of each state for further information. Nitroxium (talk) 01:16, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
- Understood. You raise a very good point and I understand your concerns about OR/improper synthesis of information. Given that the polls are only a day apart, do you think that throws a hitch in things? I can see the argument in favor of "no, it doesn't," if we're operating under a strict "recent is the most valid" rule. It sounds like this may be precedent on other pages and, if so, we should probably give it some deference but, at the same time, we shouldn't cling too closely to rules that we neglect the obvious. In this case, I think the day-apart factor is worth considering, but not necessarily the linchpin of the conversation. North of Eden (talk) 01:31, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
- Another solution I may propose is one that User:Prcc27 and I had thought of doing but were unsure if it would be WP:OR. Seeing more clearly WP:What SYNTH is not, I think it may work out and we can settle this conflict once and for all. We had proposed to create our own aggregate of the polls per state, defining our own rules based on what RealClearPolitics.com does, which is make an average of all polls within a timespan of a month. I believe this would be a synthesis that would not go against the rules of Wikipedia and would be closer to what User:Prcc27 considers which is a midpoint between two polls that he considers to be conflicing. In the case of Washington, it would literally be a midpoint between the two polls. Nitroxium (talk) 01:53, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
- I think this would be a good way to resolve the disagreement, and it likely meets WP:CALC, due to the editors' consensus to use it. That said, I would be very cautious about avoiding WP:ORIGINALSYN, as some may have concerns about aggregating polls. I would encourage proposing this on the article talk page or perhaps beginning an RfC on this to determine other editors' feedback. North of Eden (talk) 02:40, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
- I have no problem averaging polls assuming it doesn't violate Wikipedia policy. Using an aggregate from a reliable source seems fine, but making our own aggregate does seem like it would violate WP:ORIGINALSYN. If we don't average the polls I'd say striping for Washington is our best option. Prcc27 (talk) 04:27, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
- If it were to break any Wikipedia rules, I'd go back to my previous alternative proposal of adding an extra footnote. Making them stripes on the map would be just as WP:ORIGINALSYN and WP:OR as aggregates. Nitroxium (talk) 00:00, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- I have no problem averaging polls assuming it doesn't violate Wikipedia policy. Using an aggregate from a reliable source seems fine, but making our own aggregate does seem like it would violate WP:ORIGINALSYN. If we don't average the polls I'd say striping for Washington is our best option. Prcc27 (talk) 04:27, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
- I think this would be a good way to resolve the disagreement, and it likely meets WP:CALC, due to the editors' consensus to use it. That said, I would be very cautious about avoiding WP:ORIGINALSYN, as some may have concerns about aggregating polls. I would encourage proposing this on the article talk page or perhaps beginning an RfC on this to determine other editors' feedback. North of Eden (talk) 02:40, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
- Another solution I may propose is one that User:Prcc27 and I had thought of doing but were unsure if it would be WP:OR. Seeing more clearly WP:What SYNTH is not, I think it may work out and we can settle this conflict once and for all. We had proposed to create our own aggregate of the polls per state, defining our own rules based on what RealClearPolitics.com does, which is make an average of all polls within a timespan of a month. I believe this would be a synthesis that would not go against the rules of Wikipedia and would be closer to what User:Prcc27 considers which is a midpoint between two polls that he considers to be conflicing. In the case of Washington, it would literally be a midpoint between the two polls. Nitroxium (talk) 01:53, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
- Understood. You raise a very good point and I understand your concerns about OR/improper synthesis of information. Given that the polls are only a day apart, do you think that throws a hitch in things? I can see the argument in favor of "no, it doesn't," if we're operating under a strict "recent is the most valid" rule. It sounds like this may be precedent on other pages and, if so, we should probably give it some deference but, at the same time, we shouldn't cling too closely to rules that we neglect the obvious. In this case, I think the day-apart factor is worth considering, but not necessarily the linchpin of the conversation. North of Eden (talk) 01:31, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
- The whole basis of this discussion has been that the polls are conflicting and that simply cannot be 100% concluded from the information given. Therefore, any conclusion on them being conflicting would be WP:OR. As shown in the talk page of the article, the two polls are not necessarily conflicting but rather could be within a margin of error (ie. Clinton could have lost two points because of De Blasio in Washington). Therefore, drawing an arbitrary line of mixing two poll results together from two different sources just because they are a few days close to each other does not make sense to me. The poll articles (Both democrat and republican) have been absolutely clear on the fact that the map represents the absolutely most recent poll, despite the color possibly being subject to change due to margin of error or not. There are many intricacies about polls, survey methodology and pollsters to mix them into the same bag arbitrarily. I propose an alternative which is to add a footnote leaving a very clear message about the map representing the absolutely most recent poll and an invitation to scroll down and read the section of each state for further information. Nitroxium (talk) 01:16, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
- That sounds like an interesting idea; what do you think, User:Nitroxium? One of the nice things is we have more leeway than we would with the Republican page, as there's only two serious contenders, and only one who is experiencing polling variations of the type we're discussing. I'm interested to hear Nitroxium's perspective on this, so I can get a better handle on where we should proceed with our discussion. Thanks, North of Eden (talk) 00:31, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
- Well the current map isn't set up for ties because unlike the GOP map- the Democratic map goes into detail about what percentage a candidate is leading by. If let's say Sanders and Clinton were tied in Vermont it wouldn't make sense to stripe Vermont "Sanders ahead, <10%" and "Clinton ahead, <10%" because neither candidate is ahead- both are tied. Instead, we could simply add a new color for tied states like blue or red. Prcc27 (talk) 03:39, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
- I understand concerns about WP:OR; specifically, we can veer close to WP:SYNTH by comparing poll results. That said, I would encourange all to take a look at WP:What SYNTH is not. It's not considered original research to simply summarize an obvious truth; at least to me, conflicting polls would fall within that category, so long as the statement is free of any opinionated analysis. We still have the issue of how striping ought to be used on the map, and I'm interested in hearing more about that (and any additional discussion about WP:OR and simiilar issues, of course). Thanks, North of Eden (talk) 15:12, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
- Again, saying they are conflicting polls is WP:OR, you are coming to your own conclusions about the polls. And the reason it's the same map is first of all, because you changed the map we were using before. Second of all, that is a basic map with no coloring on wikimedia that any editor can pick up and start using. You added that due to margin of errors, the colors may not reflect reality completely as a footnote and that is the step we had to take. Anything else would be WP:OR. We are following the format the republicans use. Nitroxium (talk) 03:34, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Prcc27 and Nitroxium: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the basic issue is whether stripes should indicate conflicting polling results or ties between candidates. In this event, I think it's crucial to look at the Republican primary page and at precedent for this page. The same-sex marriage page may be helpful as a guide, but opinion polling on social issues and candidate polling are pretty different things. North of Eden (talk) 19:04, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
- I am going to be working on concluding the English football dispute above, but once that's concluded I will give my full attention to this issue. I plan to put up some substantive comments tomorrow morning in this section. Thanks, North of Eden (talk) 22:03, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
- Just as a question to User:Prcc27: is the footnote proposal at all acceptable to you? It's certainly fine if it wouldn't be, but just wondering. North of Eden (talk) 00:20, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- No because even though technically all the information would be there- the map would be (and currently is) visually misleading! Prcc27 (talk) 01:03, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- The map would not be misleading as all the information would be there. You are acting as if people look at the map and can't look down several pixels. It is the only solution that doesn't break WP:OR or WP:ORIGINALSYN. I think this is getting to a ridiculous point. Nitroxium (talk) 02:30, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- I already explained it would be an WP:UNDUE bias for the map to treat one poll like it is more reliable than the other one when they were only taken a day within each other. If you want to get technical it would be WP:OR to say Clinton has a less than 10% lead without the source saying so explicitly using your logic! The map is so unreliable right now, especially since the map doesn't take into account for margin of errors and you only want to account for margin of error when it's close to a tie. I think all of our problems would be solved: Washington, New Hampshire (which has a statistical tie), etc. if we made the map like the GOP map. The percentages on the map aren't doing anyone good and the GOP map doesn't have them. They might have been necessary when Clinton lead in every single state in the country. But now we learned that Sanders had a lead in Vermont all this time, and New Hampshire has a statistical tie. So two states wouldn't be colored green if we got rid of the percentages. And we wouldn't have to worry about what to color Washington! Prcc27 (talk) 02:44, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- I will repeat myself for the umpteenth time, no poll is being treated as more reliable than another. We are simply showing the absolutely most recent poll and that is as objective as we can get without breaking WP:ORIGINALSYN or WP:OR. The map is reliable as the footnote states that it is not absolutely accurate. You are the only one who has been protesting over the methodology we've used, but many editors have edited the article before and followed through with it without complaint. I did not create the article and did not put the percentages, it was another editor and with good reason. The point is to show more information to the reader, since Clinton has been the commanding leader in the primaries it interests to know by how much. I have had no problem in following through with the methodology currently used unless the race becomes tighter. Nitroxium (talk) 02:58, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- As North of Eden said, it's not WP:OR if it's an obvious truth. It's obvious that a poll isn't more reliable if it's only more recent by a day! You and I are the only ones who have been talking about changing the map since we colored Vermont for Sanders, thus the map is different when other people edited it because Clinton isn't the only candidate that leads in a state. So having a percentage map might have worked somewhat in the past, but now we have another candidate and it's becoming pointless. And there's nobody else around to weigh in on whether we should get rid of the percentages due to Clinton not leading in every state anymore. It's beyond stupid that when New Hampshire is within the margin of error for a tie you decided to stripe the map and threaten to report me for vandalism if I revert you again. Yet, we don't stripe South Carolina even though when you take the margin of error into account Clinton could either have a >69% lead or a 50%–69%. So how come South Carolina is colored for a >69% lead when the margin of error might suggest otherwise? Why is NH the only state that deserves to be striped to take the margin of error into account? It's inconsistent to only take the margin of error into account sometimes (for statistical ties). Did we use a percentage map for the 2008 democratic primary? Do we use a percentage map for the GOP primary? No. At what point is Clinton's lead no longer "commanding"? Because in April 2007 Clinton lead in every state except for 5 states. Was that a "commanding" lead? If so, then why didn't we use a percentage map in 2007? Prcc27 (talk) 03:33, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- Also, why do you consider New Hampshire a statistical tie but not Washington..? Washington is within the margin of error of being tied using the most recent poll. Prcc27 (talk) 03:49, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- I will repeat myself for the umpteenth time, no poll is being treated as more reliable than another. We are simply showing the absolutely most recent poll and that is as objective as we can get without breaking WP:ORIGINALSYN or WP:OR. The map is reliable as the footnote states that it is not absolutely accurate. You are the only one who has been protesting over the methodology we've used, but many editors have edited the article before and followed through with it without complaint. I did not create the article and did not put the percentages, it was another editor and with good reason. The point is to show more information to the reader, since Clinton has been the commanding leader in the primaries it interests to know by how much. I have had no problem in following through with the methodology currently used unless the race becomes tighter. Nitroxium (talk) 02:58, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- I already explained it would be an WP:UNDUE bias for the map to treat one poll like it is more reliable than the other one when they were only taken a day within each other. If you want to get technical it would be WP:OR to say Clinton has a less than 10% lead without the source saying so explicitly using your logic! The map is so unreliable right now, especially since the map doesn't take into account for margin of errors and you only want to account for margin of error when it's close to a tie. I think all of our problems would be solved: Washington, New Hampshire (which has a statistical tie), etc. if we made the map like the GOP map. The percentages on the map aren't doing anyone good and the GOP map doesn't have them. They might have been necessary when Clinton lead in every single state in the country. But now we learned that Sanders had a lead in Vermont all this time, and New Hampshire has a statistical tie. So two states wouldn't be colored green if we got rid of the percentages. And we wouldn't have to worry about what to color Washington! Prcc27 (talk) 02:44, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- The map would not be misleading as all the information would be there. You are acting as if people look at the map and can't look down several pixels. It is the only solution that doesn't break WP:OR or WP:ORIGINALSYN. I think this is getting to a ridiculous point. Nitroxium (talk) 02:30, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- No because even though technically all the information would be there- the map would be (and currently is) visually misleading! Prcc27 (talk) 01:03, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Prcc27 and Nitroxium: As a disclosure, I was notified at my talk page about a potential user conduct issue related to this discussion. Per policy, I can't weigh in on user conduct issues except to refer editors to more appropriate fora, such as WP:AN/I or WP:AN/Edit warring. I have carefully read your postings from earlier today and appreciate the diligence you've put into them. Just as a thought experiment, which may help editors in defusing the current conflict as we proceed, what do each of you think are the other editor's strongest arguments? Essentially, if you were arguing the other editor's point of view, which of his or her arguments might you use or expand on? Sorry if this seems infantile, but I think it may help us make progress here. North of Eden (talk) 22:20, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- Their strongest argument is that we should follow the format of the GOP map. And for the most part I agree with them. I obviously still think that polls that were taken 1 day before the most recent one shouldn't be disregarded and should be reflected on the map. But if we switched to a map that only had three categories: "Clinton lead" (dark green), "Sanders lead" (dark blue), and "Clinton and Sanders tied" (dark gray or striped green/blue)- the dispute we are having with Washington would disappear since we would just color it as "Clinton lead". Since the GOP map doesn't differentiate by what percentage a candidate is leading by, nor did the 2008 Democratic primary map- even though Clinton had a commanding lead and was leading in every state except for 5- I feel like we should follow those maps' formats and not use percentages. The margin of errors are very problematic because a state could possibly qualify as different colors based on only one single poll when margin of error is accounted for. I still don't understand why NH is striped for margin of error, but SC isn't striped to account for margin of error. But a map without percentages would fix the margin of error problem we are having now. Prcc27 (talk) 00:05, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Removing percentages would certainly render this dispute moot. But I would imagine the rationale for the percentages is that Clinton is the clear frontrunner, so the issue is generally whether she has a commanding lead or not, as opposed to whether she or Sanders is polling higher in a given state. @Nitroxium: what are your thoughts? North of Eden (talk) 18:13, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- I think that Prccc's point in that the map is not completely accurate is completely right and that is why we need to point that out in a footnote to the readers, as we have done so. I am even proposing going even further and will simply go ahead and add that footnote. However, Prccc is proposing to change completely the format that has been used by myself and many other editors since the creation of the article which had established said format because of the particularity of Clinton's commanding lead. To remove the percentages would be to make the map completely useless to the reader. I think we can work off the basis that the map is not completely accurate and work towards making the reader understand that through a simple footnote, that won't change the entire format that has been until now accepted unanimously, that will solve any issues of innacuracies and that has provided more information. Nitroxium (talk) 19:58, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- "Prccc (sic) is proposing to change completely the format that has been used by myself and many other editors since the creation of the article which had established said format because of the particularity of Clinton's commanding lead." Umm.. the the map's format was not set up that way because of her commanding lead. The reason why the map was set up that way was because when it was first created, she had a lead in every single state in the nation (except Vermont, but it was inaccurately colored in her favor at the time). Now, there are two candidates that are leading in at least 1 state. In August 2007 Clinton had just as much of a commanding lead as she does now in 2015. She had a lead in 29 states compared to her current lead in 27 states. If a map without percentages can be used in 2007 when she had a commanding lead- a map like that can also be used now since Clinton's situation is similar then as it is now! "I think we can work off the basis that the map is not completely accurate and work towards making the reader understand that through a simple footnote". A footnote isn't going to fix the inaccuracies of a map; removing the percentages will. A footnote would pretty much be telling readers "this map is inaccurate! Please read article to find out about conflicting results and margin of errors". And if you truly did support footnotes, you would have left New Hampshire alone and let the margin of error footnote explain things instead of striping it without consensus. If South Carolina ins't striped for margin of error then neither should New Hampshire. Also, as you said yourself- all the information on the map is in the article. If a reader can find out about the percentages by themselves on the GOP article, they can do so on the Democratic article too. Prcc27 (talk) 23:18, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Including the percentages likely increases the overall accuracy and usefulness of the map, which is a plus. However, it sounds as if the precedent in similar Democratic Party articles, such as the one from 2007, is to use a map without percentages. On another note, I've put some thought into the rule that only the most recent poll is used when determining each state's coloration. Generally, I think this is a very good rule. There needs to be a way to determine the state's coloration without veering into WP:OR, and using the most recent poll is pretty much the only way to do this. That said, as great as this model is, it can cause conflict with verifiability and reliable sourcing policies. Specifically, reliance on the "most-recent" rule may cause us to violate WP:RS by including information which is easily impeachable, as it is contradicted by info from an equally reliable and recent source (i.e. the May 14-17 poll in Washington). So I guess the question now is, how do we get around these obstacles? How do we satisfy both OR and RS policies while retaining consistency and accuracy on the map? North of Eden (talk) 00:51, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Well a map with percentages may be useful but how the map is currently set up is not accurate. The map doesn't take the margin of error into account unless a state is in the margin of error of a tie because Nitroxium striped NH, but not SC and other states with conflicting results when margin of error is taken into account! I think we all agree that we should be consistent throughout the articles so since neither the GOP nor the Democratic map from 2007 used percentages I think that's a strong reason for getting rid of them. Should we possibly go to another noticeboard to find out how not to violate them i.e. Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard & Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard, or should we only figure things out on this noticeboard? Prcc27 (talk) 01:32, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- The RS noticeboard might be useful; I'm not sure how active the other one is. If you'd like to try that out to vet sources, you are more than welcome to do so. I am happy to keep this discussion open and continue working to resolve the dispute here, perhaps integrating the other processes as well. North of Eden (talk) 03:19, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Done. North of Eden, if you are confused about what I mean when I say the margin of error is only being taken into account when there is a statistical tie- let me know! Also, I think removing the percentages from the map is getting closer to having consensus; especially since another state was added to the Clinton/Sanders tied column. @Nitroxium:, do you have anything to say to try to refute the points I made above about removing the percentages? Prcc27 (talk) 04:03, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- The RS noticeboard might be useful; I'm not sure how active the other one is. If you'd like to try that out to vet sources, you are more than welcome to do so. I am happy to keep this discussion open and continue working to resolve the dispute here, perhaps integrating the other processes as well. North of Eden (talk) 03:19, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Well a map with percentages may be useful but how the map is currently set up is not accurate. The map doesn't take the margin of error into account unless a state is in the margin of error of a tie because Nitroxium striped NH, but not SC and other states with conflicting results when margin of error is taken into account! I think we all agree that we should be consistent throughout the articles so since neither the GOP nor the Democratic map from 2007 used percentages I think that's a strong reason for getting rid of them. Should we possibly go to another noticeboard to find out how not to violate them i.e. Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard & Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard, or should we only figure things out on this noticeboard? Prcc27 (talk) 01:32, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Including the percentages likely increases the overall accuracy and usefulness of the map, which is a plus. However, it sounds as if the precedent in similar Democratic Party articles, such as the one from 2007, is to use a map without percentages. On another note, I've put some thought into the rule that only the most recent poll is used when determining each state's coloration. Generally, I think this is a very good rule. There needs to be a way to determine the state's coloration without veering into WP:OR, and using the most recent poll is pretty much the only way to do this. That said, as great as this model is, it can cause conflict with verifiability and reliable sourcing policies. Specifically, reliance on the "most-recent" rule may cause us to violate WP:RS by including information which is easily impeachable, as it is contradicted by info from an equally reliable and recent source (i.e. the May 14-17 poll in Washington). So I guess the question now is, how do we get around these obstacles? How do we satisfy both OR and RS policies while retaining consistency and accuracy on the map? North of Eden (talk) 00:51, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- "Prccc (sic) is proposing to change completely the format that has been used by myself and many other editors since the creation of the article which had established said format because of the particularity of Clinton's commanding lead." Umm.. the the map's format was not set up that way because of her commanding lead. The reason why the map was set up that way was because when it was first created, she had a lead in every single state in the nation (except Vermont, but it was inaccurately colored in her favor at the time). Now, there are two candidates that are leading in at least 1 state. In August 2007 Clinton had just as much of a commanding lead as she does now in 2015. She had a lead in 29 states compared to her current lead in 27 states. If a map without percentages can be used in 2007 when she had a commanding lead- a map like that can also be used now since Clinton's situation is similar then as it is now! "I think we can work off the basis that the map is not completely accurate and work towards making the reader understand that through a simple footnote". A footnote isn't going to fix the inaccuracies of a map; removing the percentages will. A footnote would pretty much be telling readers "this map is inaccurate! Please read article to find out about conflicting results and margin of errors". And if you truly did support footnotes, you would have left New Hampshire alone and let the margin of error footnote explain things instead of striping it without consensus. If South Carolina ins't striped for margin of error then neither should New Hampshire. Also, as you said yourself- all the information on the map is in the article. If a reader can find out about the percentages by themselves on the GOP article, they can do so on the Democratic article too. Prcc27 (talk) 23:18, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- I think that Prccc's point in that the map is not completely accurate is completely right and that is why we need to point that out in a footnote to the readers, as we have done so. I am even proposing going even further and will simply go ahead and add that footnote. However, Prccc is proposing to change completely the format that has been used by myself and many other editors since the creation of the article which had established said format because of the particularity of Clinton's commanding lead. To remove the percentages would be to make the map completely useless to the reader. I think we can work off the basis that the map is not completely accurate and work towards making the reader understand that through a simple footnote, that won't change the entire format that has been until now accepted unanimously, that will solve any issues of innacuracies and that has provided more information. Nitroxium (talk) 19:58, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Removing percentages would certainly render this dispute moot. But I would imagine the rationale for the percentages is that Clinton is the clear frontrunner, so the issue is generally whether she has a commanding lead or not, as opposed to whether she or Sanders is polling higher in a given state. @Nitroxium: what are your thoughts? North of Eden (talk) 18:13, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Their strongest argument is that we should follow the format of the GOP map. And for the most part I agree with them. I obviously still think that polls that were taken 1 day before the most recent one shouldn't be disregarded and should be reflected on the map. But if we switched to a map that only had three categories: "Clinton lead" (dark green), "Sanders lead" (dark blue), and "Clinton and Sanders tied" (dark gray or striped green/blue)- the dispute we are having with Washington would disappear since we would just color it as "Clinton lead". Since the GOP map doesn't differentiate by what percentage a candidate is leading by, nor did the 2008 Democratic primary map- even though Clinton had a commanding lead and was leading in every state except for 5- I feel like we should follow those maps' formats and not use percentages. The margin of errors are very problematic because a state could possibly qualify as different colors based on only one single poll when margin of error is accounted for. I still don't understand why NH is striped for margin of error, but SC isn't striped to account for margin of error. But a map without percentages would fix the margin of error problem we are having now. Prcc27 (talk) 00:05, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Prcc27: I think I get what you're saying (by all means correct me if I'm getting it wrong!). Your view, as I understand it, is that margins of error are used when determining which states should be striped as ties. They are not, however, used when determining the state's coloration if it's a Clinton-percentage state? North of Eden (talk) 14:56, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- I have also given this matter more thought and think that it wouldn't break WP:OR if we put stripes based on the margins of error (ex. Hillary above 50-69 and 69+ at the same time) but only based on the most recent polls. Is that okay with Prcc27? Nitroxium (talk) 22:13, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- I assume, if accepted by User:Prcc27, this would resolve the dispute at hand? North of Eden (talk) 15:10, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
- If they support striping Washington for both polls then yeah. Not sure if that's what they meant from their comment. While I do prefer striping states to account for margin of error I feel like with all these different shades of green and stripes the map will be too cluttered. Getting rid of the percentages altogether would make the map cleaner and more consistent with other maps. But I will probably propose this on the article's talk page since if Nixtroxium concedes that Washington should be striped- the dispute is resolved. Prcc27 (talk) 12:16, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
- I assume, if accepted by User:Prcc27, this would resolve the dispute at hand? North of Eden (talk) 15:10, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
- I have also given this matter more thought and think that it wouldn't break WP:OR if we put stripes based on the margins of error (ex. Hillary above 50-69 and 69+ at the same time) but only based on the most recent polls. Is that okay with Prcc27? Nitroxium (talk) 22:13, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
Talk:Spiro Koleka
– Discussion in progress.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
- Burridheut (talk · contribs)
- Zoupan (talk · contribs)
- Alexikoua (talk · contribs)
- Resnjari (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
The dispute is about these points:
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
1. They write that "Himara is a predominantly Greek region" This is incorrect, I gave official links to the National Census disproving it. Less than 25% are Greek. BUT, besides being incorrect, this is totally irrelevant and unrelated to the article. This article is neither about Himara nor Greece. It is about a man that was borth in neither of these two places. Therefore the two above-mentioned users were asked to remove this text as irrelevant, but they did not, they only used "Undo" after I did following their failure to provide historic backup for the contested references that they use. (Too easy to click "Undo" for them it seams)
2.They claim (from 4 books authored by the same person - Mr. Petiffer, a so-called expert on Balkan matters.) that Spiro Koleka was born in a ethnic Greek family. But this is entirely incorrect! His gravestone is written in Albanian letters and word-forming (not Greek), in addition there is a page on a peer-reviewed scientific encyclopedia (The Encyclopedic Dictionary of Albania, 1985, http://imgur.com/f7kLRxs) that explains that Spiro was born in a patriotic (meaning native) family. Also two more newspapers articles corroborate the same story. One written by a childhood friend and long time colleague (http://imgur.com/mAN9iW1 and http://imgur.com/gz1Srfm) and one written by the leaders of the political party he was a member of. They knew him better than someone that does not even care about minute details like this (Mr. petiffer). He also does not have any references in his books on the source of information about Spiro Koleka. I also challenged the two users mentioned above to go to the village of Vuno facebook group and ask the members (1300+, many are elderly people) there of the ethnicity of Spiro Koleka. This is not scientific, but if they really want to know the truth and don't believe that I am a family member (as if I collect marriage certificates from dead people born 107 years ago...)
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
I have provided links to official sources (government websites), I have made pictures of Spiro Koleka's gravestone, I have provided scans of scientific publications (Encyclopedic material), I have scanned and posted Spiro Koleka's marriage certificate, scanned old newspaper articles from different sources and have discussed in great length providing knowledge and reason on the subject matter.
How do you think we can help?
Remove any text that is inaccurate. Do not consider material that has no official/historic references. This is a biography, the simple historical facts (birthday, birthplace, fathers name, ethnicity) about a man are not up for negotiation. They are what they are. If after studying the evidences provided, the dispute resolution board is unable to decide, then the texts that are controversial should be removed. These are easy to spot as it has the word "Greek" in it.
Summary of dispute by Zoupan
Burridheut (talk · contribs) thinks he WP:OWNS the article. He is anti-Greek, downplaying the community in Albania, and most often uses terms such as "separatist propaganda". He claims four different references were written by one person, but has not proven this, or most importantly — refuted what they say. He thinks that the dubious 2011 census and the grave stone's lettering are WP:RS for WP:SYNTH.--Zoupan 13:13, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Alexikoua
Summary of dispute by Resnjari
The issue is roughly this. Spiro Koleka was a politician who held various high ranking positions within Enver Hoxha’s communist regime. Within the article it is stated that Spiro Koleka was of Greek origin. The sources used such as James Pettifer and others (which also cite Pettifer as a source origin) base this upon Koleka having been born in Himara (town) and due to the ethnicity of that town being Greek have drawn the conclusion that Koleka was Greek. Also the collection of villages (Orthodox Greek and Orthodox Albanian) in this small coastal region also colloquially bear the name of Himara due to Himara town being the biggest settlement (However in Albanian the region is known amongst Albanian speakers as Bregdet or the Coast by the Sea). Koleka was however born in Vuno village. This village in peer reviewed material is identified as being an Albanian Orthodox village or inhabited by Albanian Orthodox speakers (Nitsiakos and Kallivretakis, sources provided in Spiro Koleka talk page). And it is here where the dilemma lies. The main bone of contention, for editor Burridheut for example is that apart from originating from Vuno and having Koleka a relative, he feels that the sources have misinterpreted or simply just gotten the issue wrong regarding Koleka’s ethnicity. For Greek editors such as Alexikoua and Zoupan, the matter is that as Pettifer has published this material in peer reviewed works and as such those works referencing Koleka’s Greek identity should remain. They have said to Burridheut to provide peer reviewed sources that can be additionally added to say that other sources also state he is Albanian.
Burridheut has not provided sources that would pass Wikipedia guidelines for determining a good source (e.g. a page about Koleka from an Albanian encyclopedia published during the Communist era. Communist era publications need to be treated with caution and one a one by one basis according to author and also due to regime interference at times in scholarship). I have said to Burridheut to get Albanian sources (post 1992) that can be additionally added and hence the Albanian position can be represented and it goes for other Albanian editors (If time is needed then fine and the issue can be revisited later only with those sources provided however). Burridheut though does not want any reference to Greek origins to remain in the article, however no peer reviewed literature has been provided at this point in time to correct the error and call Pettifer into question. Nor has Pettifer retracted in any of his works this statement about Koleka (and probably wont as it might call into question his scholarship). However from my part, the Greek origin material can remain as it is from a peer reviewed source and is thus in accordance with Wikipedia guidelines. My issue with the article is this part of the sentence. "Himara, a predominantly Greek region" because it comes after the Vuno and implies that Vuno is inhabited by Greeks (when peer reviewed literature does not say this) especially when some of the sources have mixed Himara town with Himara region regarding Koleka's birthplace which was Vuno. If it stays however, the additional "Orthodox Albanian village (Kaliivretakis +Nitisiakos)" for Vuno needs to be added so neutrality is maintained considering that the sources are problematic regarding even Koleka’s birthplace. Beyond that things are fine as they are in line with Wikipedia guidelines.Resnjari (talk) 03:39, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
Talk:Spiro Koleka discussion
- Volunteer note - I am neither accepting nor declining this case at this time. There has been extended discussion on the article talk page. I have added an editor to the list of parties and have notified the non-filing editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:01, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
- Volunteer note - I will be checking on the status of this case at least every 24 hours. I expect every other editor to check on its status at least every 48 hours.
Beginning of discussion
I am accepting this case for moderated discussion. I don't know anything about the subject matter other than the article is the biography of a former Albanian communist politician. There appear to be questions about what to say was the ethnicity of the politician and what to say was the ethnicity of the region of Albania that he resided in. Are there any other questions? Would each of the editors please state briefly what he or she thinks is the issue? Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not on contributors. Do not reply to each other at this time. Address your summary to me as the moderator. Once we have better identified what the issues are, perhaps we can talk about improving the article. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:32, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
- There appear to be two statements that are being challenged. The first is that he was born in a predominantly Greek region. The second is that his family was ethnically Greek. Both statements are sourced. If editors disagree, I have two suggestions. First, provide an alternate source that states otherwise, in which case maybe the statement can be removed. Second, if the sources are questioned, the issue of their reliability can be raised at the reliable sources noticeboard (and discussion here can be suspended while the sources are being checked). Any further comments that refer to an editor will be collapsed or hatted as content on contributors. Please be civil and concise. Comment in this section, not above. Do not reply to each other (at least not at this time). Robert McClenon (talk) 14:38, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
- Please reply to the above questions. There are statements that the politician was born in a predominantly Greek region, and that his family was ethnically Greek. These statements are sourced. If other editors have different sources that disagree, we can state that there is a controversy, or we can take issues about the reliability of sources to RSN. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:55, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
- Hi Robert. Thank you for volunteering. There are three disputes, kindly see below.
- 1. Unfounded/undocumented Greek ethnicity of Spiro Koleka. There are no records to prove this, not a single evidence. This is pure speculation. Spiro was considered a patriot among Albanians, meaning a person notable for their deeds to their fatherland. You cannot call an ethnic Greek as an Albanian patriot, or an ethnic Albanian as a Greek patriot. You are a patriot when you serve your country, not your neighbors country. I have posted three scanned publications from different sources that talk about Spiro, ref. talkpage please.
- 2. Inclusion of the text "near Himara, a predominantly Greek region,[2]"; This text is not relevant at all. It is like adding to this "part of Europe, an island in the pacific". This is provocative and not a constructive edit.
- The footnote [2] links to a report that states: "The coastal Himara region of Southern Albania has always had a predominantly ethnic Greek population." If this is irrelevant, or, as you imply, absurd, please indicate how it is irrelevant or absurd. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:56, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- It is irrelevant because Spiro was not born in Himara and he never lived there, so it is a comment out of place. It is also provocative because the word "predominant" means more than 50%, but the Greek presence in the Himara city has never passed the 25%. Here included the people that are 1/2, 1/4 or 1/8 Greek. Burridheut (talk) 16:03, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
- The footnote [2] links to a report that states: "The coastal Himara region of Southern Albania has always had a predominantly ethnic Greek population." If this is irrelevant, or, as you imply, absurd, please indicate how it is irrelevant or absurd. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:56, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- 2. Inclusion of the text "near Himara, a predominantly Greek region,[2]"; This text is not relevant at all. It is like adding to this "part of Europe, an island in the pacific". This is provocative and not a constructive edit.
- 3. This third dispute is not relevant for this article IF the text from dispute#2 is removed. Otherwise it is about the expression "predominantly Greek". Predominantly means in "for the most part" (see merriam-webster dictionary). Now, I want to see one single piece of evidence that Himara has over 50% Greek population. No such record is ever given. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Burridheut (talk • contribs) 20:46, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- So far no decent arguments have been presented against his Greek origin & why the 2 works of Vickers&Pettiffer can be considered incorrect. Even if we ignore the ethnic cpmposition of Himara, Koleka's background is essential for the article.Alexikoua (talk) 19:29, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Plenty of arguments have been provided, by several users. I suggest you read carefully the talk page. Burridheut (talk) 21:42, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Yes but not a single decent one. Especially the references you provided lack any trace of credibility (publications of a communist-party organ & tottalitarian regime tertiary? off course fail wp:rs). To sum up Vicker&Pettifer claim should stay so far, being well aware of the quality of the arguments provided to contradict the above authors.Alexikoua (talk) 05:41, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- I am requesting the other editors to reply within 24 hours, since I originally requested input 48 hours ago. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:49, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
Second statement by moderator
We will have to try sectioned discussion, because the editors so far are talking past each other rather than to the moderator. There are sourced statements that the subject was of Greek ethnicity. There are sourced statements that the subject was from a predominantly Greek region. Why should these statements be accepted, or why should they be removed? Be civil and concise, and comment on content, not on contributors. If these questions are not addressed constructively within 48 hours, this discussion will be closed as failed. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:54, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
Also, are there any other issues besides ethnicity? Robert McClenon (talk) 14:55, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
Second statement by Burridheut
The source of Spiros alleged Greek identity is Mr. Pettifer. He has copied himself regarding this topic in all his books, included books coauthored with Mrs. Vickers. So there are several books of him stating the same, sometimes verbatim. So the source of this "news" is only one. That would not be a problem if the author was referring to something that is common knowledge, but this is not and he fails to provide any official records for Spiro coming from a Greek family. Not only there are no official records, but this information is used to build a whole theory as if Spiro Koleka was a rare species that survived and thrived through the Albanian communism despite being Greek. This is totally unfounded by any facts, it is a myth. I demand proof and there is none whatsoever.
Second statement by Alexikoua
My thoughts can be summarised in the following points:
- His Greek origin is well established by 2 peer reviewed works of Pettifer&Vickers and they are in English. Thus everyone can verify them.
- The fact that his home place wasn't Himara (the region's municipal center) as stated by Vickers&Pettiffer, but a tiny village Vuno, c. 2-3 kms from Himara, can't be considered as an error. Its not a serious argument to question the credibility of the authors.
- The issue of the region's (as well as each village's) demographics, isn't excactly related with the subject and should be better dealed in the correspondent articles.
- The policy of "tokenism" as stated by V&P, which is related to the subject and his Greek background, is an essential part of this biography.Alexikoua (talk) 19:32, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
Second statement by Zoupan
Second statement by Resnjari
Talk:Under the Skin (2013 film)#Plot assumes way too much.
– New discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Talk:Under the Skin (2013 film)#Plot assumes way too much. (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
- Capuchinpilates (talk · contribs)
- Popcornduff (talk · contribs)
- TransporterMan (talk · contribs)
- BoogaLouie (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
The dispute is over the plot summary originally written by Popcornduff, for the movie "Under the Skin." This dispute is documented in Talk, in the "Plot summary assumes way too much" section. There is an older, similar dispute between Popcornduff and BoogaLouie, in which Popcornduff reverted BoogaLouie's edits twice, but the current dispute is between me (CapuchinPilates) and Popcornduff, who has reverted 3 dissimilar edits I have made to the plot. I am arguing for a plot summary that accurately describes the arc of the plot, and uses primarily those details and scenes that are important to the plot. I argued for taking out a whole mess of minor details that were not crucial to anything. Popcornduff objects to the language in my last two edits as: purple prose, flowery, and overwritten. See talk page for my response.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
My first edit was somewhat misinformed, and reverted by Popcornduff. Then I read the talk section and offered suggestions for a different kind of rewrite. I received feedback, and incorporated it into my rewrite. It also was reverted. In talk I refuted each of the things that were criticized, but I offered to remove or modify each of them if that's what others wanted. I received feedback for one thing, aliens, and made that change to my 3rd edit. It was also reverted, without any talk.
How do you think we can help?
Perhaps a mediation or negotiation with Popcornduff on this formum would be useful, because I've already tried doing this on talk and Popcornduff has stopped responding. Also, I think that outside opinions would be useful by editors expert in narrative, plot, movies, or fiction, and not just expert in WP policy. I think it would be helpful for outsiders to compare my 15:30, 1 August 2015 version with the current one, and also read the plot talk section, as it details all the arguments.
Summary of dispute by Popcornduff
Back in May 2014, BoogaLouie rewrote the plot summary to include a lot of technical detail and speculation, which I reverted. After discussing it on the Talk page, I understood BoogaLouie's objections better: he/she felt the plot summary inappropriately assumed the protagonist was an alien. I thought this was a fair criticism, so I rewrote the summary to remove the assumption.
A year later, Capuchinpilates rewrote the plot summary with a lot of flowery prose and personal interpretation, which I've reverted. The current dispute has nothing to do with the argument with BoogaLouie last year. Popcornduff (talk) 10:42, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by BoogaLouie
Just stumbled across this discussion (in connection with another dispute below). Let me repeat my argument again Popcornduff's edits from a year ago: `I put it to you that in a film such this, the director is not so much interested in developing a clear plot but in atmosphere and feeling. With no clear plot, providing (normally extraneous) "technical composition" details is the next best thing. ... In the absence of clear-cut plot indication that the woman is an alien, I think the article is better served by describing the reasons why she might be, even if it moves away from strictly plot description.`
Maybe 95% or 98% of movies seen by audiences have a plot, but for the 5%, 2%, whatever, that don't, may I suggest wikipedia ease its regulations on the "plot" section of articles on movies. --BoogaLouie (talk) 22:38, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by TransporterMan
Though I'm a regular volunteer here at DRN, I'm removing my DRN hat and entering this dispute as a simple editor, not in my volunteer capacity. I want to offer some comments and opinions and then will not be further involved in the discussion here. First, let me note that I think this dispute is summed up in this edit and my comments and opinions here are based upon that assumption. First, I don't think either version is perfect, but I agree that the result of that edit — let's call that result "PCD's version" though I recognize that it may not be entirely PCD's work — is vastly superior to CP's version. It must be remembered that since the film itself is the source for this plot summary, the film is a primary source and the primary source policy says, in one of the clearest prohibitions in Wikipedia policy, "Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source" (emphasis in original). That means that when preparing a text summary of an audiovisual object that the summary must be limited to whatever is absolutely obvious from the screen and soundtrack and about which no reasonable person could disagree is what is there, with no coloring whatsoever. PCD's version comes much closer to avoiding violations of that policy, while CP's version fails to do so with paragraphs such as, "However, the woman begins to have a series of increasingly unsettling experiences that leave her confused, curious and afraid. After attempting to pick up a man at a beach, she watches him run off to risk his life trying to save two others from drowning. Later she falls down while walking on the sidewalk, and a number of concerned strangers help her up. Driving around she observes the daily life of regular people. Then, after leading a lonely, romantically inexperienced man into the liquidy void, she is disquieted by studying her face in a mirror, and then noticing a fly trapped against a window." That description is, very likely, a correct analysis of what's going on, but it is an analysis of the kind prohibited by the primary source policy. Next, it needs to be remembered that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a blog, review site, film guide, or other such medium and plain language suits that purpose much better than colorful or fanciful language such as "liquidy" and "appropriates," just to pick a couple of examples out of many in CP's version. CP admits in this edit that s/he intends to include interpretation, "Wikipedia is ultimately for serving people's needs rather than slavishly following rules, so I’ll include a very small amount of analysis." That's true as a general or default principle, but when one's work is challenged as it has been here (and as usually happens when you go up against policy) then it must be recognized that policy is the established consensus of the community and to do something different than what policy mandates requires that you either change the policy or form a new consensus at the article as a local exception to the result mandated by policy. I see no consensus forming for CP's version, I submit my consensus !vote in opposition to it for the reasons I've stated above, and it should remain reverted until CP is able to obtain consensus for it. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:31, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
Talk:Under the Skin (2013 film)#Plot assumes way too much.|Plot assumes way too much. discussion
- Volunteer note - There has been extended recent discussion at the article talk page in the section "Plot assumes way too much". The case is ripe for moderated discussion. I am neither opening nor declining the case, but am recommending that it be opened. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:38, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
Wait, it seems a little unseemly and unproductive to me for someone who volunteers as a dispute moderator on this forum, to come in and vote against a disputant. I asked for a mediation, or the opinion of an expert in plot, not another lecture on WP policy (although I am a bit ignorant of WP policy and how this forum works, and I did learn a thing or two from him/her). Capuchinpilates (talk) 01:18, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
I wanted to put a ping out there requesting a moderator for this dispute. Also, I will be on vacation all of this coming week. Upon my return I expect the dispute to be totally resolved, with the result being universal, global worship of my version of the plot. Capuchinpilates (talk) 22:49, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- I'd be happy to moderate a discussion here. First off, regarding User:TransporterMan's comment, it is permissible. Per DRN policy, he identified that he took part in the discussion outside of his capacity as a volunteer. Additionally, DRN volunteers don't have any authority per se, they just more or less help the discussion along, providing suggestions and asking questions as needed. North of Eden (talk) 01:42, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
Discussion has already been opened. Please see this for why this segment has been collapsed. North of Eden (talk) 13:12, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
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- As a general query, User:Capuchinpilates (and others), would you like this discussion placed on hold while you're on vacation? We can resume discussion afterward. North of Eden (talk) 13:11, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, that would be great if it could be on hold until the 15th. My comment about the dispute getting resolved was a joke, meant to lighten the mood. Capuchinpilates (talk) 14:57, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- That's what I figured ;) Enjoy your break and looking forward to a discussion at a later date. I'll close the thread as "on hold" until the 15th. North of Eden (talk) 15:08, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, that would be great if it could be on hold until the 15th. My comment about the dispute getting resolved was a joke, meant to lighten the mood. Capuchinpilates (talk) 14:57, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
Talk:Balochistan#Recent changes
– New discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
- EdwardH (talk · contribs)
- Rashidzaman786 (talk · contribs)
- Zmaghndstakun (talk · contribs)
- BoogaLouie (talk · contribs)
- Cyphoidbomb (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
On July 23rd, BoogaLouie expanded the "Governance and Political Disputes" section (diff). This was reverted by Rashidzaman786 and Zmaghndstakun, saying it violates WP:NPOV and WP:COATRACK. I, BoogaLouie and CyphoidBomb have tried to ask them to give more details on why they think the content violates those policies and how the edits can put into an acceptable form. We have received just one short reply from Rashidzaman786, on July 31st, which was insufficient.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
None
How do you think we can help?
By prompting Rashidzaman786 and Zmaghndstakun to explain, in detail, why they do not agree with the original edits and to help us turn the original edit into something acceptable.
Summary of dispute by Rashidzaman786
Summary of dispute by Zmaghndstakun
I had a talk page disscussion over balouchistan Pakistan where my position was oposite from User Cyphoidbomb. All ended with a concensus. Now for another article Baluchistan I am here with User Cyphoidbomb on this DRN, but with out being relevant to another article's (Khyber Paktunkhwa) dispute (between me and User Jasimkhanum 10 on maintaning pre dispute version of article), Cyphoidbomb started persanol revenge game. 1. He misrepresented me on ANI read https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FEdit_warring&type=revision&diff=675320060&oldid=675310006 2. He deleted pre dispute version of Khyber Pakhtunkha and took Jasimkhanum 10 side and voilated WP principle that in case of dispute a pre dispute version will be maintaned. Zmaghndstakun (talk) 03:30, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by BoogaLouie
Basically agree with EdwardH and Cyphoidbomb. I should also say it is very frustrating to spend time and energy doing research, finding citations, and writing a section, cleaning up the article, see it reverted wholesale, spend more time asking questions on the talk page and then get essentially no response from Rashidzaman786 and Zmaghndstakun except wiki policy-jargon (WP:NPOV and WP:COATRACK). (Here is a comparison of the original version and mine.) The irony is I was prompted to work on the Balochistan article by a suggestion from Zmaghndstakun (see here). --BoogaLouie (talk) 22:38, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Cyphoidbomb
This is a continuation of a dispute that began at the Balochistan, Pakistan province article, which I became involved in in my capacity as a Wikignome. An IP user wanted to introduce content in that article about insurgencies, human rights violations, and economic strife. This was an irritant to some of the other regulars at this article, because they felt the user was pushing a POV. In this edit I took a stab at introducing this content in a neutral tone. After a series of edits by other users, my version eventually got removed. The IP started a RfC. After the IP was found to be a sock operator, the regulars started crossing out the IP's comments, which made the RfC a mess. In spite of the IP's sockpuppetry, I felt that his argument had merit and should be discussed—if human rights violations, economic strife, and insurgencies were affecting this province and could be reliably sourced, there should be a mention of this. I closed the RfC as a procedural issue (all of the strikethroughs made the RfC incomprehensible), opened a new RfC and copied all the non-sock responses to this new RfC. I notified a number of related WikiProjects: WikiProject Human Rights, Central Asia, Geography, History and so forth, to get the widest range of input. Users Rashidzaman786 and Zmaghndstakun, who didn't have many edits outside of this subject area, showed up and expressed their opinions at both RfCs, and became the most vocal opponents of this content, even when the regulars seemed to agree that some version of this content was appropriate for inclusion.
Both editors, who I again mention have very few edits at the project but who have taken to throwing around terms like WP:COATRACK, made proclamations about the sort of content that was appropriate for inclusion: Rashidzaman wrote This is an administrative province article and should expand on the History, Government, Geography, Fauna / Flora, Climate, Culture, Sports, Religion, Demography and Administration of the province. POVs being discussed do not belong to this article. The information about Baluchistan insurgency is already covered in Balochistan conflict.
When I pressed this user to explain why we should exclude insurgencies, economic strife and human rights violations, which all seem intuitively tied to History, Government, Geography, Culture and Demography, the user never adequately responded. Zmaghndstakun? The same thing. Balochistan should covers gest of Greater Balouchistan movement/conflict and poverty of the region etc. However Balochistan,_Pakistan should not include and just follow the pattren of administrative unit details such as History, Government, Geography, Fauna / Flora, Administration, Districts, Climate, Culture, Education, Economy,Religion, Sports and Demography.
When pressed to explain how these topics were not consistent with History, Government, etc., the user never replied directly to this point. Both seemed to say that because content existed at Balochistan conflict and Human rights violations in Balochistan, that no mention of this content belonged at Balochistan, Pakistan. That argument made zero sense to me. "Should we not mention Citizen Kane at Orson Welles?" I asked. No reply.
As for the debate about this content at Balochistan, Zmaghndstakun said explicitly at the RfC, Best solution would be to cover it in page Balochistan's section history as @Mar4d: sugested, specially human rights violations by anti-state militant groups to show WP:NPOV.
He also wrote, Balochistan should covers gest of Greater Balouchistan movement/conflict and poverty of the region etc.
and I have no objection if it is added to Balochistan (Total region)
. Rashidzaman wrote, A brief in History section of Balochistan region could also be fine
, and Thanks BoogaLouie/Cyphoidbomb for understanding others point of view that greater Balochistan region should include summary of what is already covered in detail in Balochistan conflict
. But apparently when BoogaLouie tried this, he got stonewalled by these very same editors, [2][3] who have taken to policing these articles in spite of having virtually no experience editing here. That's where we are today. These SPAs are basically stonewalling any inclusion of unsavory content, and it doesn't seem constructive to me. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:18, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
Talk:Balochistan#Recent changes discussion
- Volunteer note - There has been adequate discussion at the article talk page. The filing party is required to notify the other editors on their talk pages. The template {{Subst:DRN-notice}} is normally used for the purpose. Robert McClenon (talk) 13:53, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
- I didn't know about that. Thanks for pointing it out!
EdwardH(talk) 12:49, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- I didn't know about that. Thanks for pointing it out!
- Volunteer note - Although there has been discussion in the talk page, I don't find them 'extensive'. Because, the opposing party have not explained why/what part of the material (which the supporting party added) fails WP:NPOV and WP:COATRACK. DRN requires the dispute be discussed by both parties in detail. I feel this is a case for WP:AN/EW unless the opposing party is willing to discuss the issue on the talk page/here. Please wait for another volunteer's suggestion, and do not take actions solely based on my suggestions. Regards--JAaron95 Talk 05:56, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- Volunteer note - Zmaghndstakun please refrain from making comments on user conducts. Noticeboards such as WP:AN3,WP:ANI (or) WP:ArbCom maybe used for this purpose. I don't see consensus, when your opinion is opposed by 'three' other editors. My question on why/what part of the content fails WP:NPOV and WP:COATRACK still remains unanswered. Please respond with a proper summary of dispute (on the content not on the contributor). I would also like to know if the editors Zmaghndstakun, EdwardH, BoogaLouie and Cyphoidbomb have any issues continuing this case leaving back Rashidzaman786? Regards--JAaron95 Talk 16:00, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Jaaron95: Would we able to reach a binding level of consensus without him?
EdwardH(talk) 16:08, 10 August 2015 (UTC)- @EdwardH: I must make a note that consensus made here are not binding. If an editor does not agree with the consensus here and continues to make his point, then it is considered a conduct issue and can be reported to appropriate noticeboards--JAaron95 Talk 16:18, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
- Hi Jaaron95 I'm not sure I understand the question. Continue the DRN without Rashid's participation? If neither editor wishes to explain their objections sufficiently, or come up with a compromise, or describe what their ideal version of the article would include, then I don't know what we're doing here and I think we should focus on the open AN3 case. We're here to resolve a dispute. Their lack of participation just strikes me as more stonewalling with no interest in finding a reasonable middle-ground. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:26, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Cyphoidbomb: I mean, if Zmaghndstakun comes up with reasonable objections, would you (and others) be willing to continue the case without Rashidzaman786? Regards--JAaron95 Talk 16:31, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
- Jaaron95 If both users are going to tag team to prevent changes to the article, then I think both users should be tasked to explain in detail what their reasonable objections are. I will point out that Ceradon just sanctioned Zmaghndstakun with a 3 month topic ban from articles related to Pakistan, India and Afghanistan. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:54, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Cyphoidbomb: I mean, if Zmaghndstakun comes up with reasonable objections, would you (and others) be willing to continue the case without Rashidzaman786? Regards--JAaron95 Talk 16:31, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Jaaron95: Would we able to reach a binding level of consensus without him?
- Volunteer note - Following the reasonable objections by other involved editors, it is required that both Zmaghndstakun and Rashidzaman786 make their statements (on the content) in their respective dispute summaries. Failing to do so in 48 hours, will have this case closed as failed. As for Zmaghndstakun, being under a topic ban (which construes his editing of articles relating to Pakistan), may still participate in this case and (or) discuss the issue in the article's talk page (per WP:ABAN). Regards--JAaron95 Talk 17:11, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
Editors are 'not allowed to make comments on user conduct' in DRN. This thread will be closed if comments are to be made on user conducts, rather than contents.--JAaron95 Talk 17:26, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
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- Cyphoidbomb the problem with Indian editors like you is that you have a coward approach. On Balouchistan Pakistan Talk page when Mard4 and Paksol opposed your anti Pakistan edits you got them edit ban. Then RFC or RFC redo to force your anti pakistan edits. I opposed it then you filed SPI to proof me sock of Paksol where you failed. Even on Baluchistan Talk page you tried the same. Then you started monitering my contribution and got me topic ban just like Mard4 and Paksol. My fault was that I was trying to maintan a pre dispute version to which even edit worrier Jasumkhanum10 also agreed finally but you guys misused that situation to get me topic ban. If all greater baluchistan have sepratism elements then why you guys from india want to show Pakistani Balouchistan in bad light? Now you guys will get banned Rashidzaman786 also because he is also opposing your efforts. A poor coward approach of deceptive cheatness. Zmaghndstakun (talk) 17:37, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
Talk:Miss Cleo#WP:NPOV issue
– New discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
Another editor and I are in disagreement as to whether it is NPOV to identify someone in an article as actually being a "psychic." I feel that this implies that psychic phenomena are real and is thus taking a side on a controversial issue in violation of WP:NPOV. I believe a more neutral claim such as "So-and-so describes herself as a psychic" would be more appropriate.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
Since only one other editor and I are involved, the only steps I've been able to take have been exchanging messages on the article talk page to try to persuade the other editor to be more flexible and adopt some kind of compromise. But Nyttend has shot down every compromise I've offered. And Nyttend has offered no compromises.
How do you think we can help?
I think you might be able to help by overseeing our discussion, and helping us see things and ideas that might not have occurred to us. Also, I think it would be constructive if other editors could be brought into the discussion.
Summary of dispute by Nyttend
Talk:Miss Cleo#WP:NPOV issue discussion
Volunteer Theeditorofallthingswikipedia has recused himself from the discussion after disapproval from the filing party.
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Hi, I will be your mediator for this discussion. I will come to the talk page. Thanks, The Editor of All Things Wikipedia 《Talk》 00:19, 8 August 2015 (UTC). User:Theeditorofallthingswikipedia, I appreciate your willingness to help out. I must point out, however, that so far I have seen no mediation taking place. So far you have come down solidly on one side of the issue in your first posting on the subject, and when questioned have become a bit bothered. I'm not attacking you; I'm simply suggesting that this is not mediation. Omnedon (talk) 02:01, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes, you always have that right regardless of behavior. I will recuse myself as Im not going to participate in this back and forth anymore. I will mark it back to open. The Editor of All Things Wikipedia 《Talk》 07:13, 8 August 2015 (UTC) To: Richard27182 |
- Volunteer note - This dispute appears to have a healthy amount of discussion in the article's talk page, and I think is ready for DRN. I'm neither accepting nor declining this case, awaiting dispute summary from Nyttend. Please be clear and concise. Comment on the content and not on the contributor and I'm sure we can find a solution for this issue. Regards--JAaron95 Talk 09:39, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- Volunteer note - This case will be closed in 48 hours if the editor Nyttend does not wish to participate (or) does not make his point. @Richard27182: Notifying the filing party. Regards--JAaron95 Talk 16:25, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
Astrology
– Closed as failed. See comments for reasoning. | An essential party has withdrawn from discussion; no consensus or agreement has been reached. North of Eden (talk) 00:40, 8 August 2015 (UTC) |
| Closed discussion |
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Talk:Mark Regnerus
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | Closing this case because the filing party has been blocked as a sockpuppet. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:21, 9 August 2015 (UTC) |
| Closed discussion |
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Talk:Equatorial Guinea#Portuguese_in_EQG
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | Per DRN policy, the dispute must undergo more extensive talk page discussion before we can begin here. A civil talk page discussion, cognizant of the relevant policies, may resolve your issues short of dispute resolution. If need be, we can always come back here at a later date. Thanks, North of Eden (talk) 15:13, 9 August 2015 (UTC) |
| Closed discussion |
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Goshen High_School_%28Indiana%29
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | This appears to be a user conduct issue; no content dispute has been discussed at the talk page. I would refer the parties to WP:AN/I or the edit-warring noticeboard. Additionally, parties should not place edit-warring warnings on the article itself; I have taken the liberty of removing the tag. Those (if applicable) belong on user talk pages. Thanks, North of Eden (talk) 15:19, 9 August 2015 (UTC) |
| Closed discussion |
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