Talk:Donald Trump

Historical file size
Size of the article's wikitext over time. File size at the beginning of each month (UTC). File:Mandruss-Trump-graph-2020-11.png

Highlighted open discussions

• #RfC: Arab–Israeli normalization agreements

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[[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus|current consensus]] item [n]
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01. Use the official White House portrait as the infobox image. (Dec 2016, Jan 2017, Oct 2017, March 2020) (temporarily suspended by #19 following copyright issues on the inauguration portrait, enforced when an official public-domain portrait was released on 31 October 2017)

02. Show birthplace as "Queens, New York City, U.S." in the infobox. (Nov 2016, Oct 2018, Feb 2021) "New York City" de-linked. (September 2020)

03. Omit reference to county-level election statistics. (Dec 2016)

04. Superseded by #15

Lead phrasing of Trump "gaining a majority of the U.S. Electoral College" and "receiving a smaller share of the popular vote nationwide", without quoting numbers. (Nov 2016, Dec 2016) (Superseded by #15 since 11 February 2017)

05. Use Trump's annual net worth evaluation and matching ranking, from the Forbes list of billionaires, not from monthly or "live" estimates. (Oct 2016) In the lead section, just write: Forbes estimates his net worth to be [$x.x] billion. (July 2018, July 2018) Removed from the lead per #47.

06. Do not include allegations of sexual misconduct in the lead section. (June 2016, Feb 2018)

07. Superseded by #35

Include "Many of his public statements were controversial or false." in the lead. (Sep 2016, February 2017, wording shortened per April 2017, upheld with July 2018) (superseded by #35 since 18 February 2019)

08. Mention that Trump is the first president elected "without prior military or government service". (Dec 2016)

09. Include a link to Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2017) Include a link to an archive of Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2021)

10. Canceled

Keep Barron Trump's name in the list of children and wikilink it, which redirects to his section in Family of Donald Trump per AfD consensus. (Jan 2017, Nov 2016) Canceled: Barron's BLP has existed since June 2019. (June 2024)

11. Superseded by #17

The lead sentence is "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American businessman, television personality, politician, and the 45th President of the United States." (Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Feb 2017) (superseded by #17 since 2 April 2017)

12. The article title is Donald Trump, not Donald J. Trump. (RM Jan 2017, RM June 2019)

13. Auto-archival is set for discussions with no comments for 14 days. Manual archival is allowed for (1) closed discussions, 24 hours after the closure, provided the closure has not been challenged, and (2) "answered" edit requests, 24 hours after the "answer", provided there has been no follow-on discussion after the "answer". (Jan 2017) (amended with respect to manual archiving, to better reflect common practice at this article) (Nov 2019)

14. Omit mention of Trump's alleged bathmophobia/fear of slopes. (Feb 2017)

15. Superseded by lead rewrite

Supersedes #4. There is no consensus to change the formulation of the paragraph which summarizes election results in the lead (starting with "Trump won the general election on November 8, 2016, …"). Accordingly the pre-RfC text (Diff 8 Jan 2017) has been restored, with minor adjustments to past tense (Diff 11 Feb 2018). No new changes should be applied without debate. (RfC Feb 2017, Jan 2017, Feb 2017, Feb 2017) In particular, there is no consensus to include any wording akin to "losing the popular vote". (RfC March 2017) (Superseded by local consensus on 26 May 2017 and lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017)

16. Superseded by lead rewrite

Do not mention Russian influence on the presidential election in the lead section. (RfC March 2017) (Superseded by lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017)

17. Superseded by #50

Supersedes #11. The lead paragraph is "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 45th and current president of the United States. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality." The hatnote is simply {{Other uses}}. (April 2017, RfC April 2017, April 2017, April 2017, April 2017, July 2017, Dec 2018) Amended by lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017 and removal of inauguration date on 4 July 2018. Lower-case "p" in "president" per Dec 2018 and MOS:JOBTITLES RfC Oct 2017. Wikilinks modified per April 2020. Wikilink modified again per July 2020. "45th" de-linked. (Jan 2021)

18. Superseded by #63

The "Alma mater" infobox entry shows "Wharton School (BS Econ.)", does not mention Fordham University. (April 2017, April 2017, Aug 2020, Dec 2020)

19. Obsolete

Following deletion of Trump's official White House portrait for copyright reasons on 2 June 2017, infobox image was replaced by File:Donald Trump Pentagon 2017.jpg. (June 2017 for replacement, June 2017, declined REFUND on 11 June 2017) (replaced by White House official public-domain portrait according to #1 since 31 Oct 2017)

20. Mention protests in the lead section with this exact wording: His election and policies have sparked numerous protests. (June 2017, May 2018) (Note: In February 2021, when he was no longer president, the verb tense was changed from "have sparked" to "sparked", without objection.)

21. Superseded by #39

Omit any opinions about Trump's psychology held by mental health academics or professionals who have not examined him. (July 2017, Aug 2017) (superseded by #36 on 18 June 2019, then by #39 since 20 Aug 2019)

22. Do not call Trump a "liar" in Wikipedia's voice. Falsehoods he uttered can be mentioned, while being mindful of calling them "lies", which implies malicious intent. (RfC Aug 2017, upheld by RfC July 2024)

23. Superseded by #52

The lead includes the following sentence: Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, citing security concerns; after legal challenges, the Supreme Court upheld the policy's third revision. (Aug 2017, Nov 2017, Dec 2017, Jan 2018, Jan 2018) Wording updated (July 2018) and again (Sep 2018).

24. Superseded by #30

Do not include allegations of racism in the lead. (Feb 2018) (superseded by #30 since 16 Aug 2018)

25. In citations, do not code the archive-related parameters for sources that are not dead. (Dec 2017, March 2018)

26. Do not include opinions by Michael Hayden and Michael Morell that Trump is a "useful fool […] manipulated by Moscow" or an "unwitting agent of the Russian Federation". (RfC April 2018)

27. State that Trump falsely claimed that Hillary Clinton started the Barack Obama birther rumors. (April 2018, June 2018)

28. Include, in the Wealth section, a sentence on Jonathan Greenberg's allegation that Trump deceived him in order to get on the Forbes 400 list. (June 2018, June 2018)

29. Include material about the Trump administration family separation policy in the article. (June 2018)

30. Supersedes #24. The lead includes: "Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist." (RfC Sep 2018, Oct 2018, RfC May 2019)

31. Do not mention Trump's office space donation to Jesse Jackson's Rainbow/Push Coalition in 1999. (Nov 2018)

32. Omit from the lead the fact that Trump is the first sitting U.S. president to meet with a North Korean supreme leader. (RfC July 2018, Nov 2018)

33. Do not mention "birtherism" in the lead section. (RfC Nov 2018)

34. Refer to Ivana Zelníčková as a Czech model, with a link to Czechs (people), not Czechoslovakia (country). (Jan 2019)

35. Superseded by #49

Supersedes #7. Include in the lead: Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics. (RfC Feb 2019)

36. Superseded by #39

Include one paragraph merged from Health of Donald Trump describing views about Trump's psychology expressed by public figures, media sources, and mental health professionals who have not examined him. (June 2019) (paragraph removed per RfC Aug 2019 yielding consensus #39)

37. Resolved: Content related to Trump's presidency should be limited to summary-level about things that are likely to have a lasting impact on his life and/or long-term presidential legacy. If something is borderline or debatable, the resolution does not apply. (June 2019)

38. Do not state in the lead that Trump is the wealthiest U.S. president ever. (RfC June 2019)

39. Supersedes #21 and #36. Do not include any paragraph regarding Trump's mental health or mental fitness for office. Do not bring up for discussion again until an announced formal diagnosis or WP:MEDRS-level sources are provided. This does not prevent inclusion of content about temperamental fitness for office. (RfC Aug 2019, July 2021)

40. Include, when discussing Trump's exercise or the lack thereof: He has called golfing his "primary form of exercise", although he usually does not walk the course. He considers exercise a waste of energy, because he believes the body is "like a battery, with a finite amount of energy" which is depleted by exercise. (RfC Aug 2019)

41. Omit book authorship (or lack thereof) from the lead section. (RfC Nov 2019)

42. House and Senate outcomes of the impeachment process are separated by a full stop. For example: He was impeached by the House on December 18, 2019, for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. He was acquitted of both charges by the Senate on February 5, 2020. (Feb 2020)

43. The rules for edits to the lead are no different from those for edits below the lead. For edits that do not conflict with existing consensus: Prior consensus is NOT required. BOLD edits are allowed, subject to normal BRD process. The mere fact that an edit has not been discussed is not a valid reason to revert it. (March 2020)

44. The lead section should mention North Korea, focusing on Trump's meetings with Kim and some degree of clarification that they haven't produced clear results. (RfC May 2020)

45. Superseded by #48

There is no consensus to mention the COVID-19 pandemic in the lead section. (RfC May 2020, July 2020)

46. Use the caption "Official portrait, 2017" for the infobox image. (Aug 2020, Jan 2021)

47. Do not mention Trump's net worth or Forbes ranking (or equivalents from other publications) in the lead, nor in the infobox. (Sep 2020)

48. Supersedes #45. Trump's reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic should be mentioned in the lead section. There is no consensus on specific wording, but the status quo is Trump reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic; he minimized the threat, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, and promoted false information about unproven treatments and the availability of testing. (Oct 2020, RfC Aug 2020)

49. Supersedes #35. Include in lead: Trump has made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics. (Dec 2020)

50. Supersedes #17. The lead sentence is: Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. (March 2021), amended (July 2021), inclusion of politician (RfC September 2021)

51. Include in the lead that many of Trump's comments and actions have been characterized as misogynistic. (Aug 2021 and Sep 2021)

52. Supersedes #23. The lead should contain a summary of Trump's actions on immigration, including the Muslim travel ban (cf. item 23), the wall, and the family separation policy. (September 2021)

53. The lead should mention that Trump promotes conspiracy theories. (RfC October 2021)

54. Include in the lead that, quote, Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in U.S. history. (RfC October 2021) Amended after re-election: After his first term, scholars and historians ranked Trump one of the worst presidents in American history. (November 2024)

55. Regarding Trump's comments on the 2017 far-right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, do not wiki-link "Trump's comments" in this manner. (RfC December 2021)

56. Retain the content that Trump never confronted Putin over its alleged bounties against American soldiers in Afghanistan but add context. Current wording can be altered or contextualized; no consensus was achieved on alternate wordings. (RfC November 2021) Trump's expressions of doubt regarding the Russian Bounties Program should be included in some capacity, though there there is no consensus on a specific way to characterize these expressed doubts. (RfC March 2022)

57. Do not mention in the lead Gallup polling that states Trump's the only president to never reach 50% approval rating. (RfC January 2022)

58. Use inline citations in the lead for the more contentious and controversial statements. Editors should further discuss which sentences would benefit from having inline citations. (RfC May 2022, discussion on what to cite May 2022)

59. Do not label or categorize Trump as a far-right politician. (RfC August 2022)

60. Insert the links described in the RfC January 2023.

61. When a thread is started with a general assertion that the article is biased for or against Trump (i.e., without a specific, policy-based suggestion for a change to the article), it is to be handled as follows:

1. Reply briefly with a link to Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias, optionally using its shortcut, WP:TRUMPRCB.
2. Close the thread using {{archive top}} and {{archive bottom}}, referring to this consensus item.
3. Wait at least 24 hours per current consensus #13.
4. Manually archive the thread.

This does not apply to posts that are clearly in bad faith, which are to be removed on sight. (May 2023)

62. The article's description of the five people who died during and subsequent to the January 6 Capitol attack should avoid a) mentioning the causes of death and b) an explicit mention of the Capitol Police Officer who died. (RfC July 2023)

63. Supersedes #18. The alma mater field of the infobox reads: "University of Pennsylvania (BS)". (September 2023)

64. Omit the {{Very long}} tag. (January 2024)

65. Mention the Abraham Accords in the article; no consensus was achieved on specific wordings. (RfC February 2024)

66. Omit {{infobox criminal}}. (RfC June 2024)

67. The "Health habits" section includes: "Trump says he has never drunk alcohol, smoked cigarettes, or used drugs. He sleeps about four or five hours a night." (February 2021)

Proposed shortening of one sentence in the lead section

Any thoughts on shortening a statement in the lead section as follows?

CURRENT VERSION: Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics.

PROPOSED NEW VERSION: Trump has made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics.

This would go down from 33 words to 22 words; it would preserve the most important bits (i.e., the level/rate of falsehoods is unprecedented) while omitting the unremarkable/obvious (the fact that these falsehoods have been documented - obviously they have been or else we wouldn't be making a reference to it in the Wikipedia bio). Neutrality^talk 01:33, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

This seeks to alter #Current consensus #35.

the fact that these falsehoods have been documented - obviously they have been or else we wouldn't be making a reference to it in the Wikipedia bio - I'd disagree with that statement. We might be saying that because reliable sources have said that without any documented fact-checking (or at least without anything remotely approaching the scale of what WaPo et al have done). We do that kind of thing all the time. We generally don't require sources to prove the truth of what they say. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:42, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

• On the actual proposed rewording, do you support or oppose? It was not clear to me from your comment. Neutrality^talk 13:58, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

That's because I'm waiting for other comments. I could even end up abstaining, and you'll know that by the absence of a bullet with my name on it. ―Mandruss ☎ 14:06, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

I would like to see some discussion about the need for "the media have widely described" wrt NPOV. And whether the change is due to a change in situation or due to differences in policy interpretation. ―Mandruss ☎ 14:15, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Minor note..."his campaign" is singular, whereas he has had two campaigns now. (Though "false and misleading statements" doesn't begin to cover the situation...) Perhaps an opportunity to finally change "The statements have been..." to "The misinformation has been..." Bdushaw (talk) 10:42, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

• Support the proposal with "campaign" changi7ng to "campaigns". I've long thought the extra stuff was really just there to deter edit warring, but as long as it is clearly spelled out in the body of the article I don't see the need for the longer version. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:22, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

• That's a good catch. I just changed "campaign" to "campaigns" --Neutrality^talk 13:58, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

• Support. No need to tiptoe around the facts. François Robere (talk) 12:08, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
• Support this improvement. It's a fact, so say it plainly. -- Valjean (talk) 15:56, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
• Support This is definitely an improvement. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:59, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
• Support The statement is accurate with no need to substantiate it. Gandydancer (talk) 16:04, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - Not seeing a need to overturn long standing and well participated consensus.[1] PackMecEng (talk) 16:11, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

  There is no need. I have no idea why this is even being discussed now. Efcharisto (talk) 02:10, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

• Economy is always good. Drmies (talk) 16:14, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

  Trump said this is the best economy ever. Question: That comma bothers me, but I see why the wording felt awkward without it. Is there a way to improve the sentence structure? SPECIFICO talk 17:10, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

I think the comma seems awkward because the sentence ought to begin with "To a degree..." Bdushaw (talk) 17:52, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

• Strong oppose so blithely replacing a consensus resulting from an RfC that was open for six weeks and ran to over 10,000 words. I wonder why the decision is so much easier this time. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:27, 6 October 2020 (UTC) (Eighteen days later, "blithely" no longer applies. Replaced with "oppose" at the bottom.) ―Mandruss ☎ 06:01, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

  Note that discussion was closed in February 2019. François Robere (talk) 17:06, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

  Why? Because in the 18 months since the press and numerous recent books have resolved any doubts they formerly may have held. SPECIFICO talk 20:42, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

  Quoting Paul Krugmann: Of course, we’re learning that Donald Trump and those around him lie about everything and don’t care at all about endangering other people. But that’s more of a confirmation than a revelation — we basically already knew that, although we didn’t expect such graphic evidence. I wonder why the statement is restricted to the two official campaigns and the presidency. This is his general bio, not the "Presidency of" article, and he's been making documented false statements since at least the 80s. If we remove the fact-checkers, shouldn't we remove the campaigns and the presidency, as well, and simply say that he's made many false and misleading statements before and during his presidency (to be changed to "before, during and after his presidency" sooner or later?) Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 06:27, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

  The question is whether sources provide a statement to that effect. If you can provide enough sources that do, then we can. François Robere (talk) 18:41, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

One of the things the statement says implicitly is that he is lying while president. It is one thing to lie as a real estate developer or steak salesman, another to lie to the American public as president about such things as pandemic response. Perhaps the statement ought to more explicitly reflect this more consequential lying as president? I note that since the original statement was included in the lead, the section on Veracity was substantially expanded. Bdushaw (talk) 19:20, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

• I would support total removal from the lead. I would also support changing the proposed removed wording into a footnote. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 17:00, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
• Support the proposed change. Regarding the former RfC, I note that the process can be rather bizarre, and not altogether logical. The existing sentence has, essentially, "weasel words" in "the media have widely described" - we have had considerable recent discussion on the use of such words (and recalling my recent RfC where my attempt to use such words in a misguided attempt a compromise went over like a lead balloon), with the solid consensus that they should be avoided. Just state the thing; the problem in this case is that just stating the thing is to use Wikivoice to convey a clear flaw in Trump, which gets perceived badly, by some. The proposed wording states the facts clearly and economically. I suspect for better English the sentence ought to start with "To a degree unprecedented...", however. Bdushaw (talk) 17:52, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
• Support: precision and concision are beautiful things soibangla (talk) 18:52, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Comment It might be worthwhile to try a different sentence structure, to avoid "to a degree..." Something like:

KICKING AROUND IDEAS VERSION: Trump has made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, a tactic unprecedented in American politics.

Or using a semicolon to make a substantive statement about how unprecedented the misinformation is (corrosion of democracy?). Bdushaw (talk) 19:01, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

"Tactic" is interpretational, suggests planning. François Robere (talk) 20:03, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Are you suggesting it was unplanned? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:06, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't like the alternative wording. I disagree that tactics imply "planning", because a tactic can be reactionary. Planning would imply a "strategy", but I would argue Trump's lies are habitual and are only occasionally part of some sort of overall strategy, otherwise we would have reliable sources to support the idea Trump's lies are part of a plan. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:39, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

• Trump has made more false and misleading statements than any other American president or presidential candidate in history. SPECIFICO talk 20:45, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

  Do you have a WP:RS for that? Or is it alternative wording you are proposing? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:49, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

  Isn't that a paraphrase of the initial suggestion above? However, I think this is better: Trump has made more false and misleading statements than any other president or presidential candidate in American history SPECIFICO talk 17:15, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

KICKING AROUND IDEAS VERSION: The many false and misleading statements Trump has made during his campaigns and presidency are unprecedented in American politics. ??? Bdushaw (talk) 22:36, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

KICKING AROUND IDEAS VERSION: The degree of false or misleading statements made by Trump during his campaigns and presidency is unprecedented in American politics. ??? (need "or" rather than "and") Bdushaw (talk) 22:44, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Neutrality's wording is correct: "to a degree unprecedented". "All politicians lie", but Trump doesn't just lie more than others, he rarely tells the truth. He is in a different universe, where hardly a single molecule of truth exists. It's a foreign concept to him. -- Valjean (talk) 01:42, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

• Support per nom. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 05:38, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
• Support per nom, as well. I let the issue sit overnight, and the nom's original proposal seems best. I thought of changing "many" to "an extraordinary number" ("torrent"?), but we perhaps should not belabor the issue. But it should be "false OR misleading". Bdushaw (talk) 10:03, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose, regretfully since I rarely disagree with Neutrality. Even as the sentence is we are constantly getting complaints about it at the talk page. If we change it to a simple assertion in Wikipedia's voice, without any explanation about what we are basing it on, we will be getting dozens of complaints a day, every day - and to some extent they will be justified. -- MelanieN (talk) 20:31, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

  We should never be concerned about the number of unjustified complaints, but I don't necessarily disagree with to some extent they will be justified. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:43, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

  I totally disagree with "let's go ahead and change the article in a way that will justifiably offend lots of readers, rather than keeping it as it is giving the basis for our statement." As you know, we hashed out the existing wording over a long period of time, and it has been stable for several years now if I recall correctly. The existing wording makes it clear: this is not something we are saying arbitrarily or because we are biased; we are saying it because is one of his most defining characteristics and there is overwhelming evidence for it. The proposed wording WOULD sound like we are saying it arbitrarily or because we are biased. -- MelanieN (talk) 21:39, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

  The article is loaded with things that sound like we are biased – to readers who don't understand our policies (and some editors who don't understand our policies). The only question for me is how to best comply with those policies – and they are so vague, convoluted, and seemingly self-contradictory that there is no clear answer, leaving things wide open to editor bias. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:32, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

  @MelanieN: - the existing wording has a problem though. It's not only the media which is saying that Trump's behaviour is unprecedented. It's academics. The mega-citation with the bundled references has six instances of that: (1) McGranahan is an academic source, (2) the NYT source refers to the historian Doris Kearns Goodwin, (3) the WaPo source refers to presidential historian Michael R. Beschloss, (4) the LA Times source refers to political scholar George Edwards, (5) the Toronto Star refers to presidential historian Douglas Brinkley, and (6) Skjeseth is also an academic sources. Given that academics believe that Trump's behaviour is unprecedented, I believe that Wikipedia can reflect it in wiki-voice. Does this change your view? starship.paint (talk) 08:58, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

  No, it doesn't. Thanks for spelling all this out, Starship, and I'm glad it is in the article text. However, it does not make "Trump is an unprecedented liar" into the factual equivalent of "the sky is blue". IMO we need to supply support, even in the lead, for such an inflammatory statement. -- MelanieN (talk) 15:10, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

• Factcheckers have confirmed that Trump has made more false and misleading statements than any other president in American history. -- Isn't that readily Verifiable? SPECIFICO talk 20:59, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

  Yes, but, per policy, not all that is verifiable must be included in an article, let alone in its lead. If it's included, policy is sufficiently vague (flexible) that editors can reasonably disagree about how to word it. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:02, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

  Huh? This discussion is about shortening it, not removing longstanding consensus content. Emir asked to be sure it's Verified. Yes it is. SPECIFICO talk 21:27, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

  It helps to put replies in context, or use {{tq}}.

  Not to put too fine a point on it, but the fact-checkers (WaPo, Toronto Star, et al) have not actually compared Trump to his predecessors. I don't know that anybody has at the item level, as if that were even possible or useful given that presidents haven't always made multiple public statements per day that were immediately fact-checked. That wasn't even feasible until the widespread use of computers, roughly 1980s (or maybe advent of the internet, mid-1990s). Any "verifiability" we have that Trump is unprecedented is from sources other than the fact-checker databases, and we accept their analysis without actual proof. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:45, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

  Then why do we currently say that in the article? I don't recall being involved in the initial consensus, because at the time I did not feel comfortable with what might have sounded partisan. However MelanieN without discounting your argument, I think it is the case that the press has been more willing, over the course of the most recent year, to emphasize Trump's false statements and even to call them lies. And we have a number of books in the past year that go into great detail on it. SPECIFICO talk 23:08, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

  Then why do we currently say that in the article? That's my point, which may have been unclear. I was responding only to your bolded comment, and the article does not currently say that Trump's "unprecedence" has been confirmed by fact-checkers. It says that the media have widely described Trump as unprecedented and the false and misleading statements have been documented by fact-checkers – not the same thing. You may be equating fact-checkers with reliable sources, and I'm not. That was not the intent of the phrase in the 2019 discussion, as I understood it. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:15, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

  No, actually for the purpose of the current discussion, it is the same thing. Otherwise, you should have shared your concern at the top of the thread. Let's stay focused on the matter at hand. SPECIFICO talk 23:48, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

• Alternative: "Media outlets have widely considered Trump as largely unprecedent in making false and misleading statements during his 2016 election campaign and his presidency." We could do with sounding a lot more neutral about the matter, and not seeming like Wikipedia shares that a view, while also being far more concise. Onetwothreeip (talk) 01:31, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

• I would strongly oppose that. The fact of Trump's unprecedented level of false and misleading statements is a fact, not a "view," and we do not hedge on that. Neutrality^talk 01:56, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

I never said it was a view. It should be paramount that Wikipedia appears neutral. Onetwothreeip (talk) 02:21, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

You wrote that you wished to avoid "seeming like Wikipedia shares that view." Neutrality^talk 04:11, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

@Neutrality: No worries, what I meant was that it seems like Wikipedia has a view. Onetwothreeip (talk) 05:40, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Onetwothreeip, Wikipedia (that's us) is not supposed to choose sides, but it is unabashedly, because of our RS policy, on the side of RS when there is no doubt about a matter. Wikipedia (editors) is unabashedly on the side of the fact that the sky is blue and that Trump is a liar on an unprecedented scale. That's not opinion or a "view", it's a well-established fact backed by the vast preponderance of RS and huge amounts of measurable data. Few facts are more firmly established by data and data analysis. You can bank on this, because experience has taught us that, quoting David Zurawik, we should "just assume Trump's always lying and fact check him backwards" because he's a "habitual liar".

You see, facts are not like opinions. They aren't mushy. They can withstand the onslaught of fact checkers and scientific analysis. They are falsifiable. They survive. Our duty is to make sure we don't present facts as opinions (and the converse). This is about the fact that Trump is a liar on an unprecedented scale and manner, and opinions that doubt that fact have little due weight and should only get passing mention. NPOV does require we document disagreement with that fact, but due weight tells us to do so in a very limited manner.

Wikipedia is a reality-based encyclopedia. It is neutral when it documents what RS say, even if what RS say appears to be biased (to the uninformed). NPOV requires that we document that bias and not censor or neuter it. Bias isn't always bad, and it's actually good to be biased for the facts. The facts are not central in politics, but are often held more firmly by one side more than the other, hence the famous quote "Reality has a well known liberal bias", or, as Paul Krugman put it, "Facts Have a Well-Known Liberal Bias". -- Valjean (talk) 04:57, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia (editors) is unabashedly on the side of the fact that the sky is blue and that Trump is a liar on an unprecedented scale. There are a number of editors who are unable to check their POV about this at the door. Somehow that POV never makes it into mainspace, which suggests that "Wikipedia (editors)" is not unabashedly on the side of it, your view notwithstanding. Apparently "Wikipedia (editors)" feels that such strong statements are not supportable by Wikipedia policy. I happen to agree that Trump is a liar on an unprecedented scale, as well as a number of other really bad things, but I know my opinion is irrelevant here and it's crucial to understand that. I save that for discussions among family and friends. I happen to agree that RS supports the kind of content currently in this article about that, but that is quite different from wildly irresponsible statements about blue sky "fact" that Trump is a liar on an unprecedented scale. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:36, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree that not all Wikipedia editors are on the side of RS. I would never state in Wikipedia's voice that Trump is a liar on an unprecedented scale., but our sources would justify saying that Trump has made many false or misleading statements on a scale described as "unprecedented" in American politics. -- Valjean (talk) 05:50, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

If you would never state that in an article, to say it on an article talk page is to voice your POV opinion, violating NOTFORUM and distracting from policy-based discussion. Not to mention at least giving the strong impression that you are unable to leave your POV out of content decisions. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:03, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Neutrality. Let's reboot and get back to the source for the "unprecedented" wording. It isn't used in a willy nilly fashion.

• It has long been a truism that politicians lie, but with the entry of Donald Trump into the U.S. political domain, the frequency, degree, and impact of lying in politics are now unprecedented [...] Donald Trump is different. By all metrics and counting schemes, his lies are off the charts. We simply have not seen such an accomplished and effective liar before in U.S. politics. Bolding added.

That is the sense in which we should continue to use the word. Trump isn't even close to anyone else. He's off the charts dishonest. -- Valjean (talk) 02:04, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

References

You are far from the only offender, but statements like Trump isn't even close to anyone else. He's off the charts dishonest. are pure POV and have no place in any Wikipedia content discussion. That one simultaneously cites one source – or a hundred sources – does not make that appropriate. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:28, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Excuse me for agreeing with RS and paraphrasing them. -- Valjean (talk) 02:40, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

The point is that:

• Whether you or I agree with RS is completely irrelevant for our purposes, as Wikipedia editing is not about our opinions.
• You didn't say you were paraphrasing RS, you presented it as objective fact. Those are not the same thing.

This is not hair-splitting. What we say affects how we think about these things, and that makes it important. In my view it also demonstrates how we're thinking about them. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:48, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

@Valjean: Then let's say Media outlets have widely considered Trump as largely unprecedented in making false and misleading statements during his 2016 election campaign and his presidency., because this is what reliable sources say. We shouldn't go beyond objective reliable sources. Onetwothreeip (talk) 05:39, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

That wording is grammatially awkward, at least to my American ears. Above I suggested that our sources would justify saying that Trump has made many false or misleading statements on a scale described as "unprecedented" in American politics. I have stricken "many" as "scale" covers that aspect. "Described" refers to the fact that sources do this so we don't need to mention them. When we say the "sky is blue", we don't say that "reliable sources say the sky is blue." -- Valjean (talk) 05:56, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

@Valjean: I agree with that wording, with some minor changes. Trump has made misleading and false statements on a scale described as "unprecedented" by various media outlets. Onetwothreeip (talk) 06:03, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose this change as a way to backdoor a controversial claim into Wikivoice. How many lies did Andrew Jackson tell? There is no way to have this material without attribution because there is no way to actually prove it. It will lead to endless disruption on the article and talk page as drive by readers and editors change it to something else. Mr Ernie (talk) 06:44, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

  Far from endless disruption, changes to consensus content are easily reverted without counting against 1RR. Persistent re-reverting by the "drive by" would earn a DS block, although that never happens when they are referred to the ArbCom restrictions and/or the #Current consensus list; the first revert is almost always enough. This has been proven to be a non-issue at this article. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:17, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

  And I haven't seen any readers who have WP:ECP status. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:21, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

  Since the RfC on this statement, which was prior to the pandemic, yes?, there has been a significant change in the landscape. There are new sources, e.g., 'You’re Gonna Beat It.' How Donald Trump’s COVID-19 Battle Has Only Fueled Misinformation or From COVID-19 to voting: Trump is nation's single largest spreader of disinformation, studies say I would say a revisit to the consensus statement is warranted, in any case. An important factor here is he is acting as the nation's leader with this misinformation - which is different than misinformation at other times. The lead statement should reflect that factor (drop "campaign", ignore misinformation prior to presidency?) As I've noted before, Trump's use of misinformation is one of his most notable characteristics; certainly a suitable, definitive statement in the lead is necessary. Voting and Covid-19 could be noted as two primary topics of misinformation. Bdushaw (talk) 07:45, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

  We could abandon "unprecedented" and its complications for a statement like:

KICKING AROUND IDEAS VERSION: While president, Trump has made many false or misleading statements, becoming a significant source of disinformation on voting practices and pandemic responses in 2020.

(Interesting to note the difference between "disinformation" and "misinformation" in this context.) Bdushaw (talk) 08:36, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

This fails to describe the outstanding nature of his falsehoods and misleading comments. Over long careers, plenty of politicians will have made "many false or misleading statements". starship.paint (talk) 09:00, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

I think you are right - it is a curious problem how to describe, in a NPOV way, such incessant, voluminous disinformation and propaganda. I am not sure "unprecedented" does it either, while being a lightening rod for objections. I find I am, frankly, at a loss.

Bdushaw (talk) 19:59, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Could a statement like:

KICKING AROUND IDEAS VERSION: To promote or defend his image, policies or projects, Trump has regularly employed incessant, aggressive campaigns of falsehoods, disinformation or propaganda in public rallies and on radio, television, print or social media.

be supported? I believe this is getting closer to the truth of the matter, maybe. Bdushaw (talk) 11:43, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

(Needs three serial commas per convention in this article. Following policies, disinformation, and print. Best to get such minute details taken care of before the text makes it into the consensus list, not after.) ―Mandruss ☎ 19:29, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

At this point, our efforts are in retrograde, with each attempt worse than the preceding. I think we should leave the current text alone. None of the subsequent attempts is without problems. The first one (that I foolishly criticised for a misplaced comma) was OK, and there seemed to be consensus for that one. I would not object to using that one, but it's clear there's a little too much meaning to be gracefully crammed into a single sentence. Let's go with v.1 or v.0. SPECIFICO talk 21:46, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, well, perhaps my thrashing was still a useful exercise...people have been complaining how we never think outside the box. :) I have no objection to Neutrality's PROPOSED NEW VERSION, which I think is an improvement, given the difficulties. I think including "factcheckers" is of no value now; I have modest objections to the troubles "unprecedented" raises (also based on the troubles we had with the word on another article Dismissal of U.S. attorneys controversy; first sentence), but know of no better alternative (I tried, as all can see). As an aside, I noted the article is rather weak at describing Trump's use of political rallies during his campaigns and presidency. Such rallies are part of Trump's identity. Bdushaw (talk) 22:47, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

While I agree on the revised statement, a continued discussion of it is still warranted, IMO - the statement falls well short in that it misrepresents what are deliberate, massive campaigns of disinformation (following the Russian model?). I revise the statement above, just for kicks, and give a few citations on the massive disinformation campaigns that are going on, and have gone on. Its quite a bit more than what Donald Trump says or tweets out from time-to-time; its industrialized disinformation. All not unrelated to his hour-long call ins to friendly radio or TV programs.

KICKING AROUND IDEAS VERSION: To promote or defend his image, views or policies, Trump has employed aggressive campaigns of falsehoods, disinformation or propaganda in public rallies and on radio, television, or social media.

Billion dollar disinformation/Atlantic, Misinformation Machine/Sci. American, Trump's billion-dollar "Death Star"/Salon, Disinformation machine/CNN etc. The attacks on basic science are particularly disturbing, and have been notice. Bdushaw (talk) 11:16, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

• Okay, skimming over the above, it seems that this is (unsurprisingly) leading to a lot of discussion about potential modifications to the clause. Trying to stay on topic, I'd suggest a guiding question might be this: Would it be possible to make the passage more concise without fundamentally altering its meaning?

The concerns raised above about the switch to Wikipedia's voice are reasonable enough to warrant consideration, but they apply only to the "unprecedented" part, since the first part is already present in the page. That'd leave us with something like Trump has made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree the media has widely described as unprecedented in American politics. But for that, the distinction between what's widely present in secondary sources and what we're willing to state in Wikipedia's voice shouldn't exist, since per WP:V/WP:NOR/other core policies, Wikipedia's voice is supposed to reflect what's been widely present in secondary sources. So that leads to Neutrality's proposal. It might seem like it's saying something stronger, but fundamentally it's really not; it's just cutting out statements that don't need to be there. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 08:22, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Regarding "unprecedented": The first bullet at WP:WIKIVOICE reads:

Avoid stating opinions as facts. Usually, articles will contain information about the significant opinions that have been expressed about their subjects. However, these opinions should not be stated in Wikipedia's voice. Rather, they should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as widespread views, etc. For example, an article should not state that "genocide is an evil action", but it may state that "genocide has been described by John So-and-so as the epitome of human evil."

Does widespread RS agreement make "unprecedented" a "fact" for the purposes of this bullet? Apparently not, or we wouldn't have the passage "However, these opinions should not be stated in Wikipedia's voice. Rather, they should be [...] where justified, described as widespread views, etc." Since it's entirely unproveable, "unprecedented" will always be an "opinion" for the purposes of this bullet, despite the fact that the opinion is widely held. So I disagree that that qualification doesn't need to be there. In any case, there is nothing factually incorrect about the status quo language and we are beating our heads against a wall in an effort to save 11 words in the lead, a lead that many or most editors insist is not overly long. Those 11 words certainly do not constitute undue weight for this issue. ―Mandruss ☎ 09:13, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

• Support - per the nom and soibangla. Neutrality's original proposal seems like a distinct improvement to me. I disagree with the basis of Mr Ernie's opposing rationale in particular - not just for the reason that Mandruss cites, but also because, to my understanding, it's an accepted fact among RS that Trump has used misleading statements to a degree not seen before in US politics, not a "controversial claim". Jr8825 • Talk 02:34, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
• Support. This essentially removes The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as, which is partially WP:PEACOCK stuff (it hypes how important it is) and partially describing facts as opinions ("the media have widely described"). Also, the current wording is inaccurate in that academic sources have also described it that way; but more generally, when something is essentially universally described a certain way by high-quality sources, it is inappropriate to characterize it as "described." Some people above have argued that this fact must always be framed as an opinion, but they haven't presented any actual reason why this would be the case (and, notably, they seem to implicitly concede that it is treated as fact by the overwhelming majority of sources.) If we go by that standard, any editor could, based on their personal feelings, term any fact covered by sources as a mere opinion and insist that we cover it as such - the flipside of "don't state opinions as facts" is "don't state facts as opinions"; and we rely on sourcing to determine which is which, not the gut feelings of editors. The sourcing here indicates that this is a fact. --Aquillion (talk) 02:48, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. Insufficient justification for a change to the text resulting from six weeks and 10,000 words of discussion. See also my previous comments. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:04, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

  @Mandruss: I noticed that you didn't respond directly to the points that SPECIFICO and François Robere raised earlier, that the RfC dates from almost 2 years ago and there's now a much greater body of published media on Trump's exceptional use of false/misleading statements, allowing the statement to be given with more brevity and as widely accepted fact. Jr8825 • Talk 00:24, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

  Re the use of wiki voice for "unprecedented", see this comment. No one has responded to that, and I don't require them to do so. I remain unconvinced by those arguments, and I generally don't consume discussion space to say "I remain unconvinced." ―Mandruss ☎ 10:13, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

  On current consensus 35 (the long discussion you refer to), the point being amended is #3 from the close. The close says itself: Slight Consensus was for substantiating the "unprecedented" claim by citing fact-checkers. This was argued for mainly to avoid WP:WEASEL. Most seemed receptive to this logic. It was only part of the discussion, and there was only slight consensus for it. A full discussion just on that part has taken place here, and editors feel WP:WEASEL isn't a problem. So I personally disagree there is insufficient justification to overturn that consensus. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 02:12, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

  "See also my previous comments." (which have nothing to do with WEASEL) ―Mandruss ☎ 14:09, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

• Support new version. SPECIFICO talk 22:51, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
• Recent citation Today in the NY Times Dishonesty Has Defined the Trump Presidency. The Consequences Could Be Lasting "Whether President Trump wins or loses on Nov. 3, the very concept of public trust in an established set of facts necessary for the operation of a democratic society has been eroded." Unprecedented, indeed. Bdushaw (talk) 11:18, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
• Support for brevity + link to Veracity of statements by Donald Trump for details. — JFG ^talk 07:46, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Closure

Does this need an RfC? Opinion above appears to be split, with most supporting the proposal (numerically, about 9 or 10 editors), but a substantial minority (numerically, about 4 or 5 editors) opposing it. Neutrality^talk 22:18, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, your proposal has consensus. SPECIFICO talk 22:42, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

I've listed this at WP:RFCL, as I think everyone would benefit from an uninvolved close. Neutrality^talk 02:17, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

"during his campaign"

I note the present lead has "campaign", singular, while the suggested text was corrected to "campaigns", plural. (And I note to all that it is lead, rather than lede. WP:Manual of Style/Lead section) The lead wikilinks campaign to Donald Trump 2016 presidential campaign. Might I suggest a revision to "2016 and 2020 campaigns", where now the years wikilink to the appropriate article? (There could be a 2024 campaign, but we can defer that problem to a later date.) Alternatively, and redundantly but more clear, one could write "2016 campaign and 2020 campaign". Bdushaw (talk) 12:23, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

RfC: Arab–Israeli normalization agreements

Should the text below be added under the "Foreign policy" section? Please refer to article's history and the above talk-page section for details.

On August 13, 2020, Trump announced that the United Arab Emirates and Israel were to normalize relations under the Israel–United Arab Emirates normalization agreement. The normalization agreement between Bahrain and Israel was announced by Trump on September 11, 2020. On October 23, 2020, Trump announced that Sudan will start to normalize ties with Israel, making it the third Arab state to do so as part of the Trump administration-brokered Abraham Accords.

References

-- Tobby72 (talk) 11:06, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

• (Summoned by bot) Yes per the sources presented appears WP:DUE as it significant foreign policy event --Shrike (talk) 14:45, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
• No The article is supposed to be about the man, something at this level of detail might be DUE in Foreign policy of the Donald Trump administration. It is not really the case, afaics, that the Sudan arrangement, whatever it is, is "part of" the Abraham Accords although I suppose it could be argued that is a consequence of them. It doesn't mention the Accords in the joint statement nor in most of the sources I have seen and it seems to be something being put about by a Trump aide, even the given VoA source doesn't say that, it says that UAE and Bahrain signed the Accords, which is my understanding as well. Selfstudier (talk) 15:38, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
• Yes - the man himself was present and a large part of the negotiations. The man himself was photographed with the other leaders when they announced the "deals". It's completely due weight to include how he is the only president of the US since the formation of Israel to broker at least three separate successful (i.e. productive towards a goal of peace/relations) discussions between Israel and Arab nations. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 15:52, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

  Berchanhimez, to be fair, this was always easy, as long as everyone was prepared to throw the Palestinians under the bus. That's what changed from every previous administration. Guy (help! - typo?) 18:25, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

  One can argue that the Palestinians threw themselves under the bus Shrike (talk) 21:11, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

  To expand on my own comment with some more information/sourcing: this may prove to be the most significant foreign policy achievement of his first term (from this article by a left-leaning news source). I wouldn't call "the most significant foreign policy achievement of his first term" something that's insignificant. Here's the BBC explaining why they matter, which is separate from the BBC article Tobby included in the RFC to begin with. The NYT even quotes Nancy Pelosi herself as saying it was "an important day". The biographies of many other people include their greatest achievements, and there's a consensus in the news media that this may be the best foreign policy achievement during his time in office - that is certainly biographically significant more so than the rest of that section now. The section does quite a thorough job of covering his "negative" achievements in foreign policy (ex: withdrawal from treaties, etc) - but per WP:DUE it must also cover his positive policy achievements such as this - especially when the news considers it almost unanimously the "most positive" thing he's done in his term in office. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 20:02, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

• No - a relatively insignificant foreign policy success that has almost zero effect on Trump's life. Belongs in Foreign policy of the Donald Trump administration. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:51, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
• Yes - obviously belong, just as other important peace deals are discussed in the articles of presidents involved. (I must also express my incredulity at the comment above. During 70 years, Israel has signed five peace treaties with Arab states; three out of five have come about this year. Calling that a "relatively insignificant foreign policy" is just nonsensical). Jeppiz (talk) 20:33, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

  "Calling that a "relatively insignificant foreign policy" is just nonsensical." None of these countries where geopolitical adversaries of Israel. If Trump had brokered a peace deal between Israel and Syria, for example, that would be meaningful. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:31, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

  You are wrong. According to The Times of Israel, "In a televised address Saturday on the new Israeli-Sudanese normalization deal, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu hinted that Israel carried out bombing raids in Sudan several years ago to stop Iran from smuggling weapons to Hamas via the African nation. ... Noting the historic significance of Friday’s breakthrough, Netanyahu stressed that Sudan was once an enemy state that fought against Israel in 1948. In 1967 it hosted the Arab League summit in which the so-called “3 No’s” were announced, he added: No peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel and no negotiations with Israel. ... He thanked "President Trump and his team above all — together with him we are changing history." The new accords were being reached "despite all the experts and commentators who said it was impossible," he said." -- Tobby72 (talk) 07:27, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

  Netanyahu will say almost anything to talk up Trump's successes because it benefits him politically, so he's not a reliable source for this sort of thing. Again, this is simply not biographically significant. It should be in the foreign policy article, not the BLP. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:37, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

• No amount of guffawing by the article's subject would make this especially relevant to the article, and these agreements are not significant either. Onetwothreeip (talk) 23:45, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
• Yes given the gravity of the event in terms of geopolitical realities and related to his first term, as noted by User:Berchanhimez above. Arab states, even if not traditional "enemies" of Israel, granting it recognition is inherently notable given the history there. Also, any state shifting diplomatic recognition in itself is arguably notable insofar as it entails a major change in relations between one state and another. WhinyTheYounger (talk) 03:40, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose The foreign policy events are significant, but this biography of Trump is not the place to include the statement. If Trump had made the achievements a major factor of his campaigns and administration - if he had personally argued for them, or if he had personally put his efforts and political capital on the line for them, perhaps inclusion would be warranted (if so, suggest rewording to be more Trump-centric). In addition, there has been quite a lot of discussion of restructuring the article to shorten it (for the same reason), with a reduction of the entire foreign policy section back to a summary paragraph or two. Any addition now would likely just be removed, along with a lot of other subsections, in a month or so. Presidency of Donald Trump is the more appropriate article for presidential topics not directly Trump related. Bdushaw (talk) 09:18, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
  • Why are Trump's achievements inappropriate for his biographical article, but yet Barack Obama's foreign policy achievements are not inappropriate for his, or George W. Bush's for his... keeping in mind both of those (and many other presidents') articles are either Good or Featured status? He did put his own political capital on the line and he did personally mediate between at least the leaders themselves - hence why even "liberal" media such as Vox are calling it significant for him personally. I agree the wording could be improved - but the correct thing to do then is to help improve it, not argue against inclusion. Would you be okay with the following? On August 13, 2020, Trump and the leaders of the United Arab Emirates and Israel announced they had reached an agreement to normalize diplomatic relations under the Israel–United Arab Emirates normalization agreement. This was followed by a similar agreement between Bahrain and Israel, announced by Trump on September 11, 2020. On October 23, 2020, Trump announced that Sudan will start to normalize ties with Israel, making it the third Arab state to do so as part of the Abraham Accords, which have been called potentially the most significant foreign policy achievement of Trump during his four year term as president. - with the same citations already given in the original RFC and in my reply above (specifically citing the last part (most significant) to Vox)? If people think my wording is an improvement please feel free to do what you will with it. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 13:59, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
    • The content of an article is not decided on the basis of the content of an entirely different article. Again, this will have ZERO biographical impact, so it doesn't belong in the biography. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:17, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
      • Per the precedent of past presidents, which does impact the decision here, a president's foreign policy achievements are considered "biographically important". If you don't agree, that's fine, but you should be trying to get the foreign policy impacts removed from all other articles as well. Otherwise, your opposition here is just not liking that Trump's article could have something slightly positive in it? I note that you don't disagree with the citations that I brought up that call it the "most significant" thing Trump's done for foreign policy as president? You seem to be nitpicking your disagreement and ignoring the rest of what people have said. Regardless, I think it's clear you're doing that, so I'll just let whoever closes this do what they will with your non-policy-based and precedent-ignoring disagreement. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 15:21, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
        • Disagree. Trump's life has not been like Bush's life and certainly not like Obama's life, from the standpoint of notability for Wikipedia's purposes. Please cite the Wikipedia policy that the BLPs about very different people should be treated the same in this way. And please review WP:AGF and keep your suspicions to yourself until you have tangible evidence to back them up. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:40, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
          • You have said nothing about why WP:DUE and WP:SS do not apply to Mr. Trump other than "his life is different than other presidents". That is not an argument against inclusion of this material which due weight and summary style mandate given the other information currently in this article. This has been called by reliable sources the "most significant" achievement of his time in office and merits inclusion as such per DUE and SS. I'm happy to wait for others to opine, but I will point out again that neither Mandruss or Scjessey have offered any policy based argument as to why DUE and SS do not apply here, nor have they even acknowledged that reliable sources call this the "most significant" thing he's done in office. I'll let other people opine here, but I hope whoever closes/acts on this RfC will note that these responses in this thread have ignored the policy-based arguments myself and others have brought up and ignored what reliable sources say to put their own opinion as to its significance into the discussion. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 15:55, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
            • You are confusing biographical significance and general significance. Trump's foreign policy activities will have no discernable impact on Trump's life or presidency, which means they are biographically insignificant. The policy-based argument that you seek is WP:UNDUE and WP:SS, in that including this material would violate both. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:47, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
            • given the other information currently in this article. And what if I also oppose much of that other information, for the same reason? Should I remain silent and surrender to that slippery slope? I disagree that DUE and SS mandate any such thing – I dearly wish policy were so clear, with nice bright lines for us to follow – but I'm prepared to accept the judgment of whoever closes/acts on this RfC. ―Mandruss ☎ 10:36, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
• No and I can't say it any better than Bdushaw did. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:36, 26 October 2020 (UTC) (Now abstaining after subsequent discussion.) ―Mandruss ☎ 12:26, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
• No, as foreign policy has not been a central or important aspect of the Trump administrant, this has no bearing on his personal biography, esp. as we continuously speak about article length and how to trim. Mention in Foreign policy of the Donald Trump administration. ValarianB (talk) 16:00, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
• No - Presidency of Donald Trump, Foreign policy of the Donald Trump administration, United Arab Emirates–United States relations, Benjamin Netanyahu, etc. are all more suitable for this content; this is probably not in the top 5 most important foreign policy aspects of his presidency. It also doesn't really represent any shift in U.S. policy, balances of power, etc. It is far less significant than, for instance, the withdrawal from the Iran nuclear agreement, the withdrawal from the Paris Agreement, the increased tension with European allies/NATO, the deal with the Taliban, the failed North Korea talks, etc., all of which represented a major shift/development in U.S. policy. Neutrality^talk 16:47, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

  You are wrong. Asia Times: "Aside from the US electoral aims, the agreement has geopolitical ramifications, most notably furthering the already significant isolation of Iran in the region. ... This agreement and the other recent ones undermine the now defunct Arab consensus that normalization cannot occur until there is an independent Palestinian state. ... The Sudan-Israel agreement is thus not only a triumph for Israeli foreign policy but for the American camp. While the UAE and Bahrain agreements only cemented already existing foreign policy orientation, the deal with Khartoum marks a new direction for a country of 40 million and a step away from a dark past."

  Joe Biden: "The UAE’s offer to publicly recognize the State of Israel is a welcome, brave, and badly-needed act of statesmanship ... A Biden-Harris Administration will seek to build on this progress, and will challenge all the nations of the region to keep pace."

• Tobby72, **Yes** - This is a historically significant event with plenty of coverage and deserves to be in the main article. May His Shadow Fall Upon You ● 📧 19:35, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

References

• -- Tobby72 (talk) 11:07, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

  I don't see the word "Trump" in any of that. I'm hard pressed to imagine Trump doing any of the diplomatic negotiation required, since Trump is not a diplomat or a statesman. Did Trump actively encourage the State Department to pursue this agreement? AFAIK he allowed it to happen, which meant doing nothing (not all foreign policy initiative starts at the top). Feel free to quote sources that contradict me. ―Mandruss ☎ 11:17, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

  Reuters: "President Donald Trump on Thursday managed to pull off a rare victory for U.S. diplomacy in the Middle East ahead of his Nov. 3 re-election bid by helping to broker a deal between American allies Israel and the United Arab Emirates."

  Deutsche Welle: "Trump announced the agreement on Friday, following a three-way phone call he had with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Bahrain's King Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa. ... The announcement comes after two weeks of intense lobbying on the part of the Trump Administration, particularly the president's son-in-law and senior advisor Jared Kushner and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, both of whom personally visited the king and crown prince of Bahrain, urging them to open full diplomatic relations with Israel."

  BBC News: "This is a diplomatic achievement for President Trump and for his son-in-law Jared Kushner, who largely brokered the agreements with Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates."

  The Denver Post: "The ceremony follows months of intricate diplomacy headed by Jared Kushner, Trump’s son-in-law and senior adviser, and the president’s envoy for international negotiations, Avi Berkowitz."

  The Times of Israel: "Trump announced the Israel-Sudan deal on Friday at the White House in a call with Netanyahu and Sudan’s leaders. ... Trump earlier on Friday signed a waiver to remove Khartoum from the State Department’s blacklist of state terror sponsors." -- Tobby72 (talk) 12:05, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

  That's enough to make me withdraw my opposition, and I'm striking my !vote. Not enough to earn my support, as I now feel the pro and con arguments are roughly equal in strength. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:26, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

  The article you cited from the Asia Times is an opinion piece, and it refers to the moves "furthering the already significant isolation of Iran" - i.e., as I said above, these moves fit into a wider theme, and are neither a major shift in U.S. policy nor a significant balances of power shift. If Trump brokered some sort of agreement between Turkey and Syria, or between the Saudis and the Iranians, or between warring Libyan factions, then I would be the first one to support inclusion in this article. This is not at this level. Neutrality^talk 14:35, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

  Trump brokered peace agreement between Israel and Sudan. It fought in wars against Israel in 1948 and 1967. -- Tobby72 (talk) 17:02, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

  That has nothing to do with my comment above: "neither a major shift in U.S. policy nor a significant balances of power shift." Neutrality^talk 17:09, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

  USA Today: "It comes days after Trump announced he would take Sudan off the State Department's list of state sponsors of terrorism – a pivotal move that will help end Sudan's financial isolation and bolster its transition from dictatorship to democracy. ... The Trump administration said under the new agreement, the U.S. would also work with Sudan to help ease its debt burden and become a part of the broader international community." -- Tobby72 (talk) 17:45, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

  Yes, it's important to Sudan and Sudanese-U.S. relations. That's not the same thing as balance of power shift. Neutrality^talk 18:10, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• No, put it in Foreign policy of the Donald Trump administration instead per others opposing the change. FreeMediaKid! 22:44, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
• No. Belongs in the off-shoot articles. Due to size constraints, not every action taken by the administration can be mentioned in the main Trump bio. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 03:51, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
• Yes per Berchanhimez. This has been called by reliable sources the "most significant" foreign policy achievement of his time in office. Presidents have more power in foreign affairs than in domestic policy so Trump's most significant achievement in foreign policy should definitely be included in the article. Let's at least be consistent with Barack Obama's article. -- Tobby72 (talk) 09:06, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

  The question is whether the WP:WEIGHT of mainstream RS have called this "most significant". I see no references or analysis from any participant here that supports that proposition. Even remotely. c.f. North Korea, Saudi, Russia, China... etc. SPECIFICO talk 13:02, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

  Closing admin note: Please note that Tobby72 is the proposer of this RfC, and has now also voted "yes" (and "per another user", oddly) above. ValarianB (talk) 13:22, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

  Wikipedia:Requests for comment#Suggestions for responding: All editors (including IP users) are welcome to respond to any RfC. Try not to be confrontational. Be friendly and civil, and assume good faith of other editors' actions. -- Tobby72 (talk) 17:02, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• No, per my comment to OP directly above. SPECIFICO talk 13:03, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
• Comment Frankly, I am concerned wit the OP's zeal in framing this matter in the best light possible for the BLP subject. Note this edit to Political positions of Joe Biden, which lists only Trump by name, and the leaders of the UAE and Israel generically, followed by Biden praised the agreement as a "welcome, brave, and badly-needed act of statesmanship.", which to the quick glance makes it appear that Joe Biden is praising the only named person, Trump's, statesmanship. In reality, per the source, Biden was singling out the UAE directly, Today, Israel and the United Arab Emirates have taken a historic step to bridge the deep divides of the Middle East. The UAE’s offer to publicly recognize the State of Israel is a welcome, brave, and badly-needed act of statesmanship.. ValarianB (talk)

  Fortunately, on widely-followed articles, this sort of thing is quickly spotted and corrected. SPECIFICO talk 13:27, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

  Note this edit to Political positions of Joe Biden. The US and Trump are NOT marginal facilitators. -- Tobby72 (talk) 17:02, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• Yes (with the caveat that this might be removed in further reductions of the section) the "Israel" section feels incomplete without some mention of this treaty. Reducing this to one sentence seems likely and appropriate if the section is reduced further. power~enwiki (π, ν) 01:53, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
• Yes for now, as it is currently deemed by the sources to be one of the most significant and notable actions of Trump. Of course things can change so this might need looking at with whatever happens over the next 8 years. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 15:30, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
• No: Not material to his life, this BLP is already full, belongs in presidency/foreign policy articles. soibangla (talk) 17:46, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
• Yes Of course this belongs here. Its is one of the reasons he has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize, which he won't get cause that committee only awards that to US Presidents who later cause the presenters a sense of buyers remorse[2]. But indeed, Trump's encouragement to one time foes to come to the table to work out peaceful resolutions on an international level is worth noting here and elsewhere.--MONGO (talk) 18:28, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
  • "Its is one of the reasons he has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize" LOL no it isn't. He was nominated by the same whack job who did it last time before the agreement. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:17, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
    • Guess you haven't been paying attention? [3] Looks like you're in violation of BLP by calling Christian Tybring-Gjedde a "whack job"?--MONGO (talk) 03:38, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
• No (Summoned by bot) I'd expect this to find lodging in the Foreign policy of the Donald Trump administration article, with a mention in Presidency of Donald Trump, as it is significant to his administration. Assorted articles exist to prevent any one of them from growing to an unwieldy length, which every Trump article has the potential for.Lindenfall (talk) 20:42, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
• Yes per all the above justifications. Additionally, it will be significantly more important once Saudi Arabia signs the peace deal. [4] Dr.Swag Lord, Ph.d (talk) 06:55, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

  According to the source you cited, that's not very likely. Saudia Arabia's top diplomat on Thursday called for direct peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians, while again suggesting the kingdom won't normalize ties with the Jewish state until the decades-old conflict is resolved. In an interview with a US-based think tank, Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Faisal bin Farhan Al Saud underlined the kingdom’s support for the Arab Peace Initiative, which sees a Palestinian state as a prerequisite to rapprochement between Israel and the Arab world. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 21:29, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

• No this belongs in "Foreign policy of the Donald Trump administration." Bahar1397 (talk) 22:37, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
• No. RS haven't actually reported that diplomatic relations have been established between Israel and UAE or Bahrain, just that they would be if Israel stops the annexation of the West Bank (which Israel has merely suspended) and if the UAE gets to buy F-35s (which Israel opposes, last I heard). So, two big ifs. Sudan is another big if since the current transitional government, which wanted to get off the terrorism list, is unelected, and the Sudanese public [is] largely opposed to normalization of ties with Israel. Trump announcements "that XYZ were to/ will start to" are not significant enough events in Trump's biography unless RS report that these "deals" led to peace in the Middle East, e.g. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 19:02, 30 October 2020 (UTC) 21:30, 30 October 2020 (UTC)Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk)
• Yes - while obviously it should have more detail in the relevant article, it has a lot of coverage and clearly does meet DUE. I am distinctly concerned by the people saying "foreign affairs isn't important to Trump, so it doesn't warrant inclusion. That screams non-neutrality. It's bound up with both his presidency and that is bound up with him. If someone wants to recommend an even more slimmed down version, I'd happily consider it, but it should be included. Nosebagbear (talk) 20:17, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
• Comment. This is a peculiar RfC - it requests a consensus on a particular statement on a particular topic of foreign policy, and one that is of interest to the OP. It is peculiar because this is a hodge-podge way of formulating an article - are we to have an RfC on every specific foreign policy topic that is of interest to someone? A more constructive approach might be to postulate that we need to shorten the foreign policy section (of this biography) to be a few key paragraphs on Trump's main aims and efforts, then ask for the top 3-5 topics, say, that are particularly relevant and could be summarized in a sentence or two. If this RfC statement is approved, for example, does that mean it becomes an immovable boulder in the foreign policy section, such that when someone cleans up that section (as we've discussed, so it is likely to happen), the text in question would have to awkwardly remain? Is this middle east result the most important foreign policy accomplishment by Trump (his specific contributions to it still seem minimal to me)? Bdushaw (talk) 20:30, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
• Yes include it as the most historic agreements brokered since camp David accords. It should be in the body and mentioned in the lead like Jimmy Carter. ConstantPlancks (talk) 03:37, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
• Yes based on precedent and WP:NPOV. See Jimmy Carter (Camp David Accords) and Bill Clinton (Oslo Accords and Israel–Jordan peace treaty) Adoring nanny (talk) 03:26, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
• Absolutely Yes. Our "Foreign policy" section of this article already includes much more detail about much less significant developments. Unless there is a massive cleanout of this section, which does not currently appear likely, the above paragraph should be included. -- MelanieN (talk) 19:58, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

  The vast bulk of the foreign policy stuff should come out, and agreements to formalize what had been quiet friendly relations for many years certainly don’t rank as noteworthy here, especially considering how Trump did a 180 on the Kushner plan announced in January to get these agreements. These agreements were possible only in spite of Trump’s stated policy on West Bank annexation, rather than because of it. soibangla (talk) 20:31, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

  While you (and everyone) are free to your opinion, on Wikipedia we go based on reliable sources - at least one of which has blatantly called it the "most significant" thing Trump's done. If this is not present, then per due weight anything that isn't directly called the "most significant" by reliable sources should also not be included. I agree that most stuff should come out - but if anything remains, then this must because it is covered immensely in reliable sources and has been called the "most significant" by at least one of them. Not to mention the word "significant" (sometimes with "very" or other words) is used often to discuss these developments. Regards -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 20:40, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

  It's not an opinion that the deal was made possible because Netanyahu suspended his longtime objective of annexing West Bank settlements, and the Kushner plan in January greenlighted the annexation, which was contrary to decades of American and international policy for a two-state solution. So by agreeing to this deal, the Trump administration reversed its stated policy of just months earlier. It's also not an opinion that Israel and UAE had "a robust diplomatic relationship that had long been one of the Middle East's worst-kept secrets." soibangla (talk) 00:16, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

  That's not what I was calling an opinion. Your opinion I was referring to was that it "do[esn't] rank as noteworthy" - which is countered by the fact that a majority of reliable sources call it "significant" or similar, and one even calls it the "most significant". I've seen no reasoning from anyone here as to why those reliable sources should be ignored or discounted. n.b. I fixed your comment for list-gap as well. Regardless, I think the best thing is to let the closer of this discussion evaluate whether the concerns about due weight are merited/valid or not based on the comments here, so I won't hammer it anymore in responses to you. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 00:28, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

If we're talking about significance, we should give more weight to his major initiatives that have not yielded results: China, DPRK and Iran. These are the three major policies that Trump pursued, but they didn't pan out, which created the need for the Israel/UAE deal to get some foreign policy points on the board in an election year. Not to mention Netanyahu's political motivations, but that's another topic. This deal put on paper realities that had existed for years. soibangla (talk) 00:45, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

• Note: I've changed the beginning of some comments to follow MOS:LISTGAP by changing beginning colons to beginning asterisks as per the beginning comments and the overwhelming majority of new-lines. This should not have any visual effect whatsoever, but improves the flow for users of accessibility devices/programs. Regards -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 20:40, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
• Yes but condensed. This material is sufficiently noteworthy for inclusion here but only in a condensed format. The UAE and Bahrain agreements can be easily consolidated into a single sentence. Sudan isn't noteworthy because, well, DJT announces lots of stuff that never comes to pass. R2 (bleep) 00:37, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
• Not as phrased. That Trump made certain announcements is verifiable enough, but runs foul of WP:NOTNEWS. If there's sourcing for Trump having played a role in the normalisation of diplomatic relationships between Israel and these Arab states & Sudan; then include a brief mention of that. - Ryk72 ^talk 05:34, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
• Yes – Those agreements are recognized as very significant developments towards peace in the Middle East, which has been a salient objective of the Trump administration ever since his election (and a stated goal of U.S. foreign policy for decades). Kushner brokered those deals at Trump's behest. Obviously we're not at the "ultimate deal" level he touted during his 2016 campaign, but that's not reason enough to dismiss those announcements as merely political fodder. I also believe this may be lead-worthy material, especially if/when a couple more countries sign up to normalizing relations with Israel. — JFG ^talk 07:53, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
  • @JFG: Even if they are regarded as "very significant" towards Middle East peace (which they really aren't), they have almost ZERO impact on Trump's life. That should be reflected in this article. Any coverage here should be minimal, and there's no way in a million years it would make the lead. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:49, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
    • @Scjessey: RE they have almost ZERO impact on Trump's life.: Irrelevant. The vast majority of what is in our "presidency" section has zero impact on his life. Shall we remove our entire coverage of immigration? Of "energy and climate"? Of health care, gay rights, abortion? None of those things seem to impact him personally. Significant actions as president are always included in that president's biography. That's because they become part of the person's legacy. I agree it would not make the lead, but that's not what this discussion is about. This material is proposed to be added to the "Foreign policy" section of the text. -- MelanieN (talk) 17:51, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
• Comment: I just want to address some arguments that have been made recently. First of all there is very likely to be a significant reduction in the foreign policy content on this article anyway, so it's not particularly valid that this should be included because other stuff is. On reliable sources, there is a lack of attribution for this to Trump specifically. The balance of reliable sources shows that this belongs on Wikipedia, but not on the Donald Trump biography. Onetwothreeip (talk) 22:58, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Mention of fascism

WP:SOCK blocked power~enwiki (π, ν) 18:47, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

I made a section about this here earlier but it got removed, maybe calling Trump a fascist straight up in article is not appropriate but it should at least be mentioned: https://www.npr.org/2020/09/06/910320018/fascism-scholar-says-u-s-is-losing-its-democratic-status https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2020/10/07/what-authoritarian-countries-can-tell-us-democracy-and-trump/3518563001/ https://www.nationalobserver.com/2020/10/08/features/all-elements-are-place-american-style-fascism-says-cornel-west https://www.businessinsider.com/is-trump-fascist-jason-stanley-says-it-is-wrong-question-2020-7 Not all of these exactly scream "trump is an accepted fascist" but they all show the debate is real and major Xqd (talk) 06:21, 1 November 2020 (UTC) Xqd, see Political positions of Donald Trump. -- Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 12:13, 1 November 2020 (UTC) Xqd, that is unlikely. It's possible to find sources describing various politicians as fascist, or communist, or socialist etc. For WP to apply those epithets, or even refer to them, it would take more than that. It's of course a different matter when politicians themselves employ them about their own policies. That's not the case here. Jeppiz (talk) 14:11, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Agree. These sources are reliable. If not I think an even stronger case can ve made for mention of the word Authoritarian. Izmirlig (talk) 01:30, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

I think that fascism is a bit too subjective, but it is hard to deny that he has authoritarian tendencies. Jamez517 (talk) 21:42, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Addition of First Step Act to domestic policy section

I would like permission to edit the Domestic Policy section of the Trump wikipedia page to add in the First Step Act. This is major, bipartisan legislation that he actually signed into law, not just stated positions, and this page should reflect as much. I plan to write no more than a paragraph and link to the wikipedia article on the First Step Act. I intend neither to exaggerate nor downplay the law, but just to point out that this was a product of his presidency.

FroggyJ4 (talk) 16:46, 3 November 2020 (UTC)FroggyJ4 2020nov3

I'm not strictly opposed to this, but nobody will want to deal with this today (or probably tomorrow either) with the election happening. I will note this is mentioned at Presidency of Donald Trump#Criminal justice, and that may be sufficient. power~enwiki (π, ν) 17:25, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. I'll try again in a week; I think Social policy of Donald Trump should also be changed which doesn't seem to be locked, but there's no need for expediency. FroggyJ4 (talk) 17:37, 3 November 2020 (UTC)FroggyJ4 2020nov3

I would oppose inclusion. Trump had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the First Step Act except putting his signature to it, so it is not biographically significant. This was a bill that originated in the House but failed to pass the Senate because McConnell refused to give it a vote, until it was substantially revised. Neither Trump nor any member of is administration was involved in the bill's crafting. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:45, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Irrelevant. Presidents are always given "credit" or responsibility in history for bills they sign, whether or not they participated in the writing of the bill. -- MelanieN (talk) 18:07, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. Any bill signed under Trump's presidency is biographically significant to, in fact, any president's biography, if significant enough in importance or impact, whether positive or negative.Dr.EbrahimSaadawi (talk) 14:40, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Every mention of the word black

Should we use the term African American when referring to Barack Obama in this article? --246700Sarhan (talk) 20:34, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Not until someone shows that's the term used most of the time in reliable sources (I'm not seeing it). Political correctness is not a factor in such decisions at Wikipedia. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:47, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

We should be able to use them interchangeably. Onetwothreeip (talk) 22:49, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

2020 election

The 2020 election is a major event and should be mentioned in this article, even if its outcome is not yet known.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:05, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Disagree. It's an encyclopedia, not a newspaper, and that applies especially in a biography. Wait at least until a significant majority of RS say the outcome is known; then, if said outcome is a Biden win, the article can attempt to summarize the protracted legal battles – without detail about every filing, motion, and ruling. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:26, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

WP:NOTNEWS does not apply here.--Jack Upland (talk) 19:32, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Is that an observation or a rule? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:49, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

An observation. There is nothing in that policy that covers this as far as I know.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:21, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

This is the last place anyone should look for information about the current election. There is no central tendency to the narratives in media or expert commmentary, and we haven't even heard from Alan Dershowitz yet! SPECIFICO talk 13:53, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

I don't think it would hurt to have a sentence or two, summarizing the current state of the election, in the "2020 presidential campaign" section. ValarianB (talk) 14:08, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Are you brave enough to propose something? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 17:57, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

It's mentioned in the lead and there is a section about the 2020 election. We will report the outcome when it is confirmed, which will be December 14th at the latest. TFD (talk) 20:07, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

It is mentioned in the lead because I put it there.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:21, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

For consideration to add to the article lede:

Following his defeat in the 2020 United States presidential election, Trump became the first United States President to serve a single term since the defeat of George H.W. Bush in the 1992 United States presidential election. He was succeeded by President-elect Joe Biden.

-Red marquis (talk) 20:26, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

I think that is not the way. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 22:12, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

No, purely trivia. Trump, Bush and Carter were all very different people with very different presidencies and very different reasons for losing to very different opponents in very different climates. All it would really convey or reflect is the author's intent, not define the subject. InedibleHulk (talk) 08:00, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Joe biden won election 786nab687 (talk) 17:37, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Says who? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 17:40, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Idea worth mentioning in the article if true and verifiable

Here's a question - (especially if he loses) would Donald Trump be the first presidential candidate to falsely claim victory? Or have there been others prior? If this is true, and if there are sources for it, I think it would be worth mentioning in this article. I can't find a record yet. ɱ (talk) 23:50, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

I would hardly think so. Trump is already notable for the sheer number of extreme things has has said during his Presidency. Adding one more to the list would be of little value. HiLo48 (talk) 23:55, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

This is remarkable, potentially unique, and undemocratic to the point of being compared to statements of dictators. Definitely will become part of the article no matter what, we'll just have to see if he was the first to. ɱ (talk) 00:03, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Dewey in 1948? Might have just been news media declaring him the victor, and not him personally. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 23:59, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Yup, I was thinking about this, not sure. ɱ (talk) 00:03, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

I had a quick look at this and at the moment can't see any RS describing him as being the first president to do so. However, I think it'll be significant enough for inclusion anyway, particularly if his false victory claim continues to cause legal/violent chaos over the next few days. Jr8825 • Talk 00:10, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, it seems it was only one paper that got it wrong and mistakenly ran with it, I don't think Dewey ever was assured of victory nor declared it. ɱ (talk) 19:06, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

I think this isn't clear-cut. When does an expression of confidence in a result become undemocratic?--Jack Upland (talk) 00:22, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

With the greatest respect, saying it isn't clear-cut is not true. He has now declared victory twice (he did so a second time a few minutes ago). "If you count the legal votes, I easily win. If you count the illegal votes, they can try to steal the election from us". There's a reason why the RS are all saying he has falsely declared victory. Biden has expressed confidence in a result, Trump has said "we already have won". Jr8825 • Talk 00:32, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

That said, I suggest we wait for the winner of the race to be officially called before beginning to consider whether this should be included. Jr8825 • Talk 00:37, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

I was referring to historical comparisons, not just Biden and Trump.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:53, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Do not conflate "I'm confident we will win" and "Frankly, we did win this election," particularly while trying to stop the counting of votes. But any related content can wait until things shake out and settle down a bit. There is no deadline. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:34, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

If the question is — is Trump the first person to behave like Trump? — then that is clearly true, but generally not worth noting.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:45, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

That is not the question. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:50, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

I have been wondering this morning where to include the quite extraordinary Trump statements challenging the integrity of votes, voting, and vote counting, with the widely, bipartisanly condemned premature declaration of victory. He builds on his disinforming narrative from throughout the campaign. My own sources, predominately the NY Times and WA Post, call these statements "historic" and unprecedented. The NY Times is now using "lies" regularly. There are articles on how this rhetoric is undermining democracy and America's perception abroad. Perhaps a brief paragraph in concluding the "False statements" subsection, or perhaps in the 2020 campaign subsection? (Indeed this incident could well be an article on its own) Also playing into his psychology of the importance of "winning" whereas he may well lose this time. All still hardly beyond news hence likely premature for addition. Bdushaw (talk) 12:41, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Depends what happens exactly. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 17:31, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Source

You have GOT to source this line, in the last paragraph before the fold, "Trump reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic". What is 'slowly'? His administration addressed the issue in January 2020, when the virus was in its infancy. Yes, he handled the outbreak poorly, but that's easy to say in hindsight. I would argue that he reacted quickly but ineffectively to COVID-19. --Sebanderson (talk) 15:30, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Have you had a look at the corresponding entry under #Current consensus above? In any case, worth being aware of MOS:LEADCITE. Regards, HaeB (talk) 15:41, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

The whole sentence is synthesis of *opinion* stated as fact in a BLP. This is a hard libel which is very legally problematic as written and should be removed immediately or phrased to be clearly the opinion of his opponents. Coming to a consensus on WP does not wash it of legal problems. WP is not a place for pushing political stances as if they were hard facts. — al-Shimoni (talk) 13:59, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Challenging the presdential election legitimacy and results and declare of victory prior to seal of votes

Should I add a section about the current Trump attitude towards the 2020 USA Presidential elections? It's quite a unique behavior and unprecedented by any incumbent or even nominee. His twitter campaign towards the legitimacy of the elections, his flagged tweets, his claims of victory, etc. I think it's a biogrophically significant part of his presidency and is a potential paragraph that's significant regardless of the elections' outcomes. Dr.EbrahimSaadawi (talk) 14:48, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

In my opinion, anything presidency-related should be established in one or more of the many Trump sub-articles before being considered for inclusion here. If accepted here, it should summarize the material in the sub-article(s), not adding any details. The relationship between this article and the sub-articles should be similar to that between this article's lead and its body. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:23, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

This could be something big though. It should not be in this article yet, but it might be appropriate later. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 16:12, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Outgoing status

Joe Biden is now President-elect of the United Status. Should we add Lame Duck and Outgoing as the status? Ciaran.london (talk) 16:49, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

And what other changes should be made?— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 16:50, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

That’s all I’ve noticed Ciaran.london (talk) 16:58, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

I see the necessary changes were made.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 17:33, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Modifying the lead to add "due to leave office on January 20, 2021"

He has lost re-election and we should note this in the header. - Skynorth/Starfrost^{my talk page} 16:51, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

I have added, to the 2020 election section and the lead, that the major news outlets have pronounced Biden the president-elect. That isn't quite the same as saying Trump has lost, period, official, end of story. Let's see how Trump reacts. If he concedes, then yes, but I don't see that happening, at least not right away. -- MelanieN (talk) 17:00, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Link in the COVID-19 section of the intro

I understand there are strict rules around changing anything about the Coronavirus paragraph in the introduction. I don't want to change the wording at all but think it would be more suitable given the American focus of the info to include a link 'Covid-19 in the United States' rather than the general 'Covid-19 pandemic' article. Llewee (talk) 16:51, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Seems fair.Slatersteven (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:56, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 November 2020

Former president 142.116.179.254 (talk) 16:57, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

 Not done He is still president until January 20, 2021. -- MelanieN (talk) 17:01, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Probably. In reality a number of things could happen. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 17:17, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

What to say in the lead

I think the only thing we should say in the lead is that he is projected to have lost his bid for re-election. People keep trying to add that he is filing legal challenges and promoting conspiracy theories; I think that should all be kept to the article text. There is massive edit conflicting going on as everyone tries to get their version in. Can I get either consensus here, or help in keeping the material out of the lead while we discuss it? -- MelanieN (talk) 17:32, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

I think keep it out until we have a agreement.Slatersteven (talk) 17:36, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Agree. We may need full prot here for a day or two. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:37, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

I have requested a few hours of full protection at RfPP. I can't do it myself, I am too involved. -- MelanieN (talk) 17:49, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

I have mentioned there that I support your request. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 17:58, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Presidency (2017–2021)

This title seems to be in violation of WP:CRYSTALBALL. Yes, he's expected to leave office in 2021, but this gives the impression that it has already happened, and a lot can happen between now and 20 January 2021. I think it should say present until he actually leaves office. Adam9007 (talk) 17:33, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

I would agree.Slatersteven (talk) 17:35, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Agree. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:40, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

2021 is still better than present in my view. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 17:49, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

I favor "present". -- MelanieN (talk) 17:50, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

I changed it to "present' as that seems to be the consensus here. -- MelanieN (talk) 17:54, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 November 2020 (2)

Donald trump is now former president 786nab687 (talk) 17:36, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

He still holds office.Slatersteven (talk) 17:38, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 November 2020 (3)

I want to change the "current president" to "former president". Please don't do it before me. I want to be the first one to do it. Ethyl Alcoholic (talk) 17:48, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

He is the current president. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 17:49, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Until January 20th. By the way - stop vandalizing the page to sow doubt over whether Biden won. "According to whom?" is not a citation. You're an adult - act like it and edit responsibly. Biden is the president-elect - it's over. --50.69.20.91 (talk) 17:53, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

I have not vandalised. Please stay civil even if you do not like the election results. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 17:57, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Adding "according to whom?" as a citation under Biden as the President-Elect isn't vandalism to you? Alright then. --50.69.20.91 (talk) 18:02, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

According to whom?? The american people

The citations over Biden succeeding Trump need to stop being vandalized by so-called "senior editors". Grow up - and stop trying to stir doubt and discourse over a clear result. EDIT: I want to request that Emir of Wikipedia have his editing rights for this page removed. He's clearly trying to propagate doubt over a clear result. --50.69.20.91 (talk) 17:54, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Om Namah Ramsut Sharma II removed that tag with this edit. -- Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 17:55, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

That the networks have called the election for Biden does NOT mean Biden is now officially the next president of the U.S. It doesn't work that way. Elections have been called incorrectly from time to time. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:58, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

It's not the "networks calling it" It's simple math when you count the remaining ballots left. Biden DID win the election, disputing it ANYWHERE on this site is reckless and idiotic. --50.69.20.91 (talk) 18:01, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Not until the electoral college says he is, the US does not have direct presidential elections.Slatersteven (talk) 18:04, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

The Trump camp still has some legal recourse remaining under our system. It will probably fail but "probably" is not enough for our purposes. This is an encyclopedia and there is NO RUSH TO PUBLISH. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:07, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Biden won the election legally, and fairly. Not including Biden as his successor is essentially legitimizing any notion put forth by the Trump campaign that the election is not over, and that the decision on who will be the next president hasn't been reached. It has. Biden is the president-elect, therefore - as has been the case with EVERY OTHER ELECTION, he must be included here. Period. --50.69.20.91 (talk) 18:25, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Page protection

I have just applied full protection to this page per a [ request at RFPP. Please achieve consensus before introducing your preferred changes. I know this page is not at an optimal revision for protection; if someone who has been actively editing at this page could point me to a good revision to restore that would be appreciated. @MelanieN and Emir of Wikipedia: perhaps? GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:59, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I'll take a look. It may take me a few minutes. -- MelanieN (talk) 18:01, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

@GorillaWarfare: I'd suggest the revision immediately prior to when the networks called the election. That would be this revision. Then we can do individual edits by prior consensus. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:04, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

 Done. If consensus is achieved for a change and you need help implementing it, feel free to ping me or grab the attention of any other admin. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:06, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

GorillaWarfare, probably the right call, just noting one minor change I was about to make, in the lede q-anon should be cased as per its article as other titles in the lede are e.g. The Apprentice. SITH (talk) 18:09, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

@StraussInTheHouse: The addition of the QAnon/q-anon mention in the lead was one of the changes introduced without consensus. After I reverted to the pre-announcement revision, it's no longer there: [5]. If consensus is achieved to add that paragraph, the stylization of the term can be agreed upon as well before it's reintroduced. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:12, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

WHY was Biden removed from the infobox. It's our practice to put the president-elect in there. GoodDay (talk) 18:13, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Have you bothered to read any of the discussion here? If you do so, I think you will find the answer to your question. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:16, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

So we're doing it differently now? We kept Trump's name in Barack Obama's infobox, even before his inauguration or his election by the Electoral college. GoodDay (talk) 18:23, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

• @GorillaWarfare and MelanieN: would someone kindly remove CN, and improper synthesis tags from lead? They are properly sourced in the main body. Thanks. —usernamekiran (talk) 18:18, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

RfC: Describing Trump as conspiracy theorist in lede?

The President's promotion of conspiracy theories has been central to his public image and political appeal from the beginning of his forays into GOP politics (in 2011 he was all about Birtherism). Now, Trump is ending his presidency with conspiracy theories about how the election was stolen from him. In his time in office, he has promoted numerous other conspiracy theories (e.g. that Bin Laden is not dead and that Obama Admin killed a body double). Therefore, I think that it is important to describe Trump as a conspiracy theorist in the lede and mention some of the conspiracies he has promoted (birther, election fraud, etc). I request the input of others, do you agree with me that a mention of Trump-as-conspiracy theorist belongs in the lede? Why or why not? CozyandDozy (talk) 18:22, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

No, no, and no. power~enwiki (π, ν) 18:24, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Degree

Could someone please reword in the second paragraph so as to clarify which school he attended and which school conferred his bachelor’s degree. The way it is currently worded you can’t tell what if any degree he earned from Fordham.   Thorncrag  18:26, 7 November 2020 (UTC)