:::Ultimately the third criteria is what will cause you the issue. Users will argue that you don't need the tools and some may even, ludicrous though it is, use your excellent content contribs against you suggesting you should continue to focus on that. On all this I would definitely say that some track record, even with the odd mistake, would go down far better than no track record. Users will worry that you're unfamiliar with deletion criteria and will make mistakes due to lack of experience. My gut tells me you could pass, but you'd have much more chance if you spent some months working in those areas to build up a track record. [[User:Valenciano|Valenciano]] ([[User talk:Valenciano|talk]]) 12:32, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
:::Ultimately the third criteria is what will cause you the issue. Users will argue that you don't need the tools and some may even, ludicrous though it is, use your excellent content contribs against you suggesting you should continue to focus on that. On all this I would definitely say that some track record, even with the odd mistake, would go down far better than no track record. Users will worry that you're unfamiliar with deletion criteria and will make mistakes due to lack of experience. My gut tells me you could pass, but you'd have much more chance if you spent some months working in those areas to build up a track record. [[User:Valenciano|Valenciano]] ([[User talk:Valenciano|talk]]) 12:32, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
::::{{ping|Ergo Sum}} I endorse the suggestion to participate at AfD, and any other admin-related areas that you may find interesting. You might try your hand at [[WP:Non-admin closure]]. Also, do read up on key WP policies; I had not done this before I was dragged into my RFA, and had a lot of catching-up to do during the nomination; I ended up booking two days' annual leave from work because of the time that my "benign" RFA took up. Before the actual RFA, you can get a quick trial of opinion at [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Optional RfA candidate poll]]. HTH – [[User:Fayenatic london|Fayenatic]] [[User talk:Fayenatic london|'''<span style="color: #FF0000;">L</span>'''ondon]] 02:37, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
== Empty categories regarding Disestablishment ==
== Empty categories regarding Disestablishment ==
Revision as of 02:37, 4 September 2019
This user talk page might be watched by friendly talk page stalkers, which means that someone other than me might reply to your query. Their input is welcome and their help with messages that I cannot reply to quickly is appreciated.
BrownHairedGirl is a Wikipedia admin
I have been an administrator since May 2006. Administrators have access to a few technical features which help with maintenance.
I regard admin powers as a privilege to be used sparingly and judiciously, but if you require the assistance of an admin, please feel free to
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If you want admin help, please do try to explain clearly what you want done, and why, and please do remember to include any relevant links or diffs. I'll try to either help you myself or direct you to a more experienced person if appropriate.
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Since you like to hide things, I'll try the direct approach.
Now that you've created the epithet the Notorious Portalspammer for User:The Transhumanist, can you come up with one for me? The Burgundy Templater perhaps? (Burgundy ribbons signify Multiple Myeloma, which you seem to find humorous. I've also created 7,570 active template pages.) Yours aye, Buaidh talkcontribs 00:04, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Buaidh: if you ever showed even a small fraction of the analytical capability that TTH displayed, I might consider it. But TTH is way out of your league.
Your attempt at flattering him as a portal creator two months after he wrote that portals are becoming redundant was a piece of comedy.
Now to the serious bit. Please keep discussion at XFD focused. That's what I collapsed your attempt to use it as a caht room
On every previous occasion when I have nominated at MFD portals in which User:Buaidh has an intrest, they have responded with an extraordinary range of misconduct including: sustained personal attacks, spamming messages, blatant canvassing, and flooding the discussion with multiple walls of text, and maliciously false allegations of harassment. I urge Buaidh to refrain from that, and to discuss the substantive issues at the MFD. If there is any resumption here of such disruption, I will go straight to ANI, without further warning. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 00:12, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I know you think me stupid, but I was employed for ten years as an unchallenged Expert witness. Yours aye, Buaidh talkcontribs 00:24, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I would find that assertion more credible if your activities on Wikipedia amounted to more than robotically creating convoluted sets of pointless pages, and if you demonstrated an ability to participate in reasoned discussion without so rapidly resorting to multiple forms of disruptive conduct to disguise your lack of substantive argument.
But there again, I have long held the view that the existence of expert witnesses in court proceedings (especially if unchallenged) is a perversion of basic and vital principles of evidence and of jurisprudence. Your evident unfamiliarity with the conduct of reasoned debate, and your reluctance to participate in it, reaffirms my view. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 00:47, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That certainly constitutes harassment since you have no basis of fact. You really like to malign. Do you have any non-Wikipedia credentials? Buaidh talkcontribs 01:45, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Buiadh, please stop behaving like a whiney eejit.
I didn't ask to have this conversation. I didn't ask you personal questions. You chose to come to my talk page try to flash credentials at me. I told you why I am unimpressed.
If you don't want to hear my response, then stick to discussing the substance, and drop your tediously pathetic efforts to personalise everything. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 02:13, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I saw this section linked from another talk page. I feel that "if your activities on Wikipedia amounted to more than X" can rightly be perceived ad hominem, because it seems to disqualify any argument made by a certain (kind of) person, probably implying that they are "people without the necessary personal attributes", as said below. Similarly, "Do you have any non-Wikipedia credentials?" sounds like a personal attack. I personally appreciate the energy BrownHairedGirl has put in the effort to clean up the portals and I admit I chuckled at several of her strongly worded arguments on deletion discussions, but I wish we could avoid such unpleasant personal interactions. Sadly, it might be impossible. Nemo 07:43, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Please keep Wyoming portal links in place
I am working on a new Wyoming portal, so I am requesting for you to please stop removing links to the portal from various pages. When a portal is deleted, the links go blank anyway, so it's not a big deal. When I publish the new, revised, updated and maintained portal, it would be nice for it to already have links to it, rather than having to redo all of them again. North America1000 08:22, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree, because with entirely new content, particularly articles, say 40 or so to start, G4 wouldn't be applicable; the content would significantly differ from the deleted version. Sure, some of the box header titles would be the same, and the lead would be the same, the categories would be the same, but the articles would not. North America1000 08:57, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@NA1K, the portal was deleted because it fails the WP:POG requirement that portals should be about "broad subject areas, which are likely to attract large numbers of interested readers and portal maintainers".
The fact of one editor doing some one-off work will not alter that underlying problem. Your sudden burst of energy does not and cannot amount to sustained maintenance by a "large number of portal maintainers".
If you disagree with the MFD outcome, you know where DRV is.
On a broader note, it is disturbing that you persistently refuse to respect the simple words of POG, which require that portals be about "broad subject areas, which are likely to attract large numbers of interested readers and portal maintainers". Your various exploits have included serial attempts to misrepresent the guidelines by omitting the relevant text, and even more bizarre attempts to claim that "large numbers" doesn't actually mean large numbers.
The portal was not salted. The portal has potential to receive better page views, because it is possible that portals with lots of content may attract more viewers who check-in from time-to-time, particularly if they're updated with new content from time-to-time. It does not appear that you will stop removing the portal links, which then becomes a vicious circle, as you are working to keep page views down for a new portal before it is even created. Bummer. Less visible links is obviously correlated with lesser page views. Well, I tried. Guess I'll have to re-add the links if I create a new portal. North America1000 09:14, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@NA1K, the bummer is that you remain in such deep denial of well-documented facts and policies that you must have either severe reading comprehension problems or a deep-seated aversion to acknowledging reality.
Please note that POG really does require that a portal be likely to attract a large number of maintainers. I note that you do not even attempt to advance any rationale for why we might expect more maintainers to appear for a small state.
And you also remain in denial about the fact that G4 allows speedy deletion for cases where the deletion reasons still apply, as they do in this case. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 09:33, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It also states at WP:AWBRULES, "Do not make insignificant or inconsequential edits. An edit that has no noticeable effect on the rendered page is generally considered an insignificant edit. If in doubt, or if other editors object to edits on the basis of this rule, seek consensus at an appropriate venue before making further similar edits." When portals are deleted, portal links are blank on pages. So, your deletion of the links consists of a long series of inconsequential edits. They aren't necessary, and are only creating more future work for others, for no good reason, other than that you apparently don't like portals for whatever reasons. North America1000 09:34, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Per the "if other editors object to edits on the basis of this rule" part of the rules, and since I obviously object, please cease and desist using AWB to remove portal links that have no noticeable effect on the rendered page. North America1000 09:36, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
NA1K, your objections are clearly founded on your rejection of the consensus at MFD. I would be willing to explain in detail my reason for removing the redundant links if you both accepted the MFD consensus and if I was discussing this with an editor who did not open with a bad faith statement that I apparently don't like portals for whatever reasons.
Please stop your attempts to game the system to circumvent consensus. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 09:43, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No gaming here. Again, the portal was not salted. Consensus was for deletion of that version of the portal, not for permanent deletion of a Wyoming portal forever. There was no bad faith intended in my statement, so sorry if this offended you. At WP:ENDPORTALS you stated in part, "My ideal solution would be too keep about 20 major portals(art/science/etc plus continents), and delete the rest. But given the unhelpful binary nature of this proposal, I'd prefer outright deletion..", and at Wikipedia talk:Portal/Guidelines you posted a long essay about your term "portalistas" (diff), which comes across as a bit negative toward portals and portal editors. Per all of this, I surmised that you don't seem to like portals that much. So, again, sorry if you were offended, and if my impression is incorrect. I would still like for you to stop misusing AWB, though. Please seriously consider this. North America1000 10:08, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@NA1K, your assumptions of bad faith run as deep as your denials of the plain English in guidelines.
WP:SALTing a hard barrier to prevent disruption. Lack of salting is not a license for you to ignore the consensus that the topic of that portal (not its content) fails POG.
You continue to deliberately and misleadingly take snippets of my my views on the ideal policy for portals, and misrepresent then as some sort of lack of commitment to work within the existing guidelines unless and until they are changed by consensus. This is a fundamental issue of how Wikipedia works: it is expected and required that editors uphold a consensus even if they disagree with it, and that is what I am doing here.
I think that am probably responsible for creating more links to portals than any other editor on Wikipedia. By adding portal links to category header templates such as {{EstcatCountry}}, {{EstcatUSstate}} and many others I have created hundreds of thousands of links to portals. I have put significant time and energy into developing mechanisms to do this, such as Template:YearInCountryPortalBox/parse, which took about a full week of my time to get to a working solution.
So your ABF decision to view this as some sort of effort by BHG to dismantle links to live portals is as fact averse as the rest of your arguments.
There are tracking categories in place to allow detection and repair of links to non-existent portals: see Category:Portal templates with redlinked portals and Category:Portal templates with all redlinked portals. Those tracking categories became unusable when they were overwhelmed and overloaded by the calls to deleted portals. The deleted portals overwhelmed those tracking categories, which is why last month I began removing the deleted portals in order to allow the categories to achieve their primary purpose of tracking and fixing errors. You desire to permanently clutter these tracking categories with entries arising from portals deleted by consensus would make it impossible to do the actual maintenance, because the signal-to-noise ratio would remain at the insanely low level it was at before I began the cleanup.
I assume that you do not want to impede the fixing of misnamed links to portals. If so, please support and assist this cleanup. And if you don't support link fixing, please explain why you wish to impede my longstanding and ongoing efforts to improve links to portals. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 10:40, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
A short reply: First of all, I have no bad faith whatsoever, so sorry if you feel otherwise. At Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Wyoming your nomination states nothing about topical broadness, and nor do any of the delete !voters. After quoting WP:POG, where broadness is mentioned within the quote from the page, you provided no subsequent qualification for deletion based upon this, instead stating, "But in practice, this portal has not attracted maintainers for over a decade, and it also has almost no readers..." (et al.). Your subsequent comments in the discussion say nothing about topical broadness. You state above that you feel that the discussion led to a "consensus that the topic of that portal (not its content) fails POG", but none of the delete !voters qualified deletion based upon this. Rather, those for deletion stated reasons regarding page views, lack of updating, being outdated, not having enough content, and the like. Since User:Scottywong closed the discussion, pinging them for their take regarding why the portal was deleted. Perhaps the close can be addended, if need be. North America1000 10:54, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(TPS) If a portal is not maintained (left incomplete, outdated etc) over a long period (e.g. years) then that's evidence that the portal's topic fails to meet the POG requirement. DexDor(talk) 11:59, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@NA1K, I really hope that you take some time to re-read and reflect on your post of 10:54.
As you say, I quoted the guideline saying that it requires X as measured by A and B, and then shows how it didn't meet A and B.
The whole point of A&B is that they are the test for X. Yet you seem to somehow regard them as wholly unrelated to the reasons for deletion. I really, honestly don't know how you can say that, because the connection is set out the start. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 13:37, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As User:Northamerica1000 said, he pinged my talk page and is asking for clarification on why Portal:Wyoming was closed. I've read through the discussion above about re-creating the portal, and here's my take. Overall, the portal was deleted because it didn't live up to the requirements at WP:POG, specifically the requirement that "portals should be about broad subject areas, which are likely to attract large numbers of interested readers and portal maintainers. Portals which require manual updating are at a greater risk of nomination for deletion if they are not kept up to date." The way I interpret this guideline, the measure of a subject's "broadness" is whether or not its portal attracts "large numbers of interested readers and portal maintainers". So, I believe that the MfD provided an implicit consensus that the subject isn't broad enough (based on the clear consensus that the portal had virtually no maintainers or readers), but there wasn't much explicit discussion about that point at the MfD. NA1k seems to be saying that the lack of explicit discussion on the "broadness" topic gives him an opening to re-create the article. However, I would regard this as a dangerous foundation on which to build a case for re-creating the portal after it was deleted.
It would be a shame to go through all of the effort to re-create the portal, just to have another MfD where the consensus is that the topic is not sufficiently broad. It would be far more preferable to have that discussion before the work is done to re-create the portal. What will you do differently this time to ensure that the portal attracts a team of interested maintainers, and a significant number of interested readers?
To quickly re-create the portal so soon after the MfD was closed, without considering the above points, would be irresponsible in my view. While you might be able to technically wikilawyer your way out of an immediate G4 speedy, the chances that the new portal will survive another MfD are low if the above problems aren't first solved. And, if a solution doesn't exist to the above problems, then that's a good sign that the portal shouldn't exist at all. ‑Scottywong| confess _ 18:58, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, @Scottywong. As I noted above, even the most-viewed Portal:California got only 46 pageviews/day. Wyoming has less than one 68th of California's population and only 1/78th of its GDP, so it's implausible to think that Wyoming could come anywhere near even California's lamentable figures.
As to the required "large number of maintainers", the MFD was open for 35 days and nobody volunteered to maintain the portal. The answer looks clear to me. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 19:10, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Scottywong: Thanks for providing your perspective. My view, and the view of many others at various MfD discussions through the months, is that a subject's broadness is a measure of the breadth of a particular subject, or overall available content on Wikipedia about a given subject. For example, the guideline page does not say "portals should contain broad subject areas, it states that they should be about, or based upon, broad subject areas. As an example, see Category:Wyoming and its many subcategories for an overview of available topical coverage about the state. In my view, this is sufficient to meet the broadness criteria of WP:POG. Many portals have been deleted at MfD in part per the rationale that the depth of coverage about a given topic did not qualify the existence of a portal, and in many cases, correctly so. For some examples, see Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Lake Van and Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Albany, California. Many more examples exist, which can be found at recent MfD archives. However, while the Wyoming portal was certainly qualified for deletion per lacking adequate content, it does not mean that the content itself is nonexistent on Wikipedia, the portal just wasn't expanded to include various content. North America1000 23:09, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@NA1K, it is utterly extraordinary that your reply makes no mention or acknowledgement of the fact WP:POG explicitly ties the question a topics' breadth to readership and maintainers.
As you know, evidence was presented at MFD that this portal has neither readers nor maintainers, but you plough on as if the guideline didn't exist or the evidence had not been presented.
What is wrong with you? What on earth are you trying to achieve by continually misrepresenting both the guideline and the discussion? --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 23:20, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The guideline page simply states several factors in one sentence. It does not state that if a portal does not attract readers or maintainers, then a subject itself is not broad enough, it states, "portals should be about broad subject areas, which are likely to...". In other words, broad subject areas are likely to attract said users, but a lack of said users does not mean that a subject area is then inherently not broad enough per a lack of said users. I get what you're saying, but the way the guideline is worded, it is a syllogism of sorts. North America1000 23:31, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@NA1K, when a topic has failed to attract both readers and editors for a whole decade, then it is clear not "likely" to attract them.
It's very simple, in my view, a subject area is defined as the overall scope of available coverage on Wikipedia about a given topic. A subject area's broadness should not defined by the number of readers or maintainers a portal has. Makes perfect sense, really. For example, per its present Revision history, the Physics article on Wikipedia does not attract a large number of maintainers, but it is certainly quite broad in topical scope. People would laugh heartily if the Physics article was nominated for deletion as lacking topical broadness because it is not edited regularly. Now, I know, I know, it's an article, but still. The syllogism at POG is a bit absurd. North America1000 00:01, 1 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Northamerica1000: It seems like what you're saying is that Portal:Wyoming failed to attract visitors and maintainers, not because the topic is too narrow, but for some other reason. And you seem to believe that if you create the portal differently (i.e. better content, links to more articles), it will begin to attract a significant number of readers, and an army of maintainers will join you in regularly maintaining the portal. Is that a realistic belief? ‑Scottywong| express _ 01:31, 1 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Scottywong: The portal lacked sufficient content, so people would likely visit it, realize there's not much there, and then likely not go back. I feel that a potential exists for a functional portal to be created, with adequate content, say 40-50 articles, 20 images, etc. as a start. I feel that this would encourage readers to utilize the portal more compared to its previous state. Regarding your notion of an "army of maintainers", the guideline page states that portals should be "likely" to attract maintainers, not that hundreds of maintainers are absolutely "required", but I digress. Unfortunately, creating such as functional portal would now be even more uphill, since BHG has hurriedly, unilaterally, and rather eagerly continued to remove many links to the portal from various pages. At this point, it would take too much time, work and energy to start over from scratch, at least for me, so oh well, nevermind. North America1000 01:41, 1 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Average daily pageviews of portal on en.wikipedia in April–June 2019@Scottywong is probably well-bored with this by now, but if Scotty hasn't already given up, here's the problem: NA1K is conducting a prolonged exercise of deep denial of two simple realities: that most portals are almost unread, and do not have enough editors willing to sustain them. This is a long-standing problem, which both reflects the basic redundancy of portals, and the long-term decline in the ratio of editors to pages.
NA1K's denials of both the realities and of the relevant guidelines are so severe and so persistent that it is not possible to describe them accurately without appearing to cross boundaries of civility.
As of Feb 2018, there were about 1500 portals. Most of them were abandoned and almost unused.
That's what led to the WP:ENDPORTALS RFC, which proposed deleting all of them. The proposal to delete the lot was rejected as too extreme, but no alternative RFC was made for how to fix the problem.
So the solution adopted was to convert the portals to automated clones of navboxes. About 1/3 of the 1500 existing portals were converted to an automated format, and a further ~4200 automated pseudo-portals were created as spam, some of them just for the heck of it.
Unfortunately the automation created clones which added no value to the navboxes. So the instigator of the automation was topic-banned, and a moratorium was imposed on the mass creation.
The community narrowly failed to reach consensus on a proposal to speedy delete the spam (it got ~65% support in a RFC). Most of the navbox-clone portalspam was deleted in April in two mass deletions of similar portals (one, and two), and the rest in smaller groups.
The converted portals were reverted to their old, abandoned state.
Since then MFD has continued to delete abandoned and underused portals, leading the total number of portals to be reduced to below 900 by late July 2019.
However, there are still many many portals which ave been abandoned and unused for years, and those are still being brought to MFD. This has caused NA1K and a few other portalistas to panic as the number continues to fall, so they are mounting various forms of excitable rearguard action o try to defend remaining portals, even when those portals are junk.
NA1K's chosen solution is a form of deep denialism. I can't tell for certain whether NA1K's denial is based on deep mendacity or on severe reading comprehension problems, but there is so much creative art involved that mendacity seems much more likely. But whatever the cause of the dysfunction, it is very clear that NA1K is engaged is systematic campaign of FUD to obscure the simple fact that the hard data shows that most portals have never reached a critical mass of readers and editors.
Note that graph of pageviews: most portals have abysmally poor readership. Across many hundreds of topics, readers simply don't use portals. Even the richest and most populous US State portal, California, gets only 46 pageviews per day.
NA1K writes I feel that a potential exists for a functional portal to be created, with adequate content, say 40-50 articles, 20 images, etc. as a start. Obviously, a lone enthusiastic editor can create a functional portal of decent quality. That isn't hard. The problem is that portals don't just require creation; they require ongoing maintenance, and the history of portals such as this is that the initial enthusiastic creation has very often not been followed up with maintenance.
NA1K writes I feel that this would encourage readers to utilize the portal more compared to its previous state. Note the lack of any evidence or metrics to support NA1K's assertion: we are asked to trust NA1K's "feeling", and implicitly asked to ignore the hard evidence that portal on this sort of topic (small US population states) simply don't attract readers or maintainers. NA1K offers precisely zero evidence that the proposal for a one-off upgrade will magically attract readers and editors, and ignores the fact that any older portals have already been through a cycle of upgrade followed by continued decline.
The bottom line here is that NA1K simply doesn't want to acknowledge that:
portals are tools, not content, and are pointless unless the attract a decent number of readers. That's one reason why the guidelines have always required that portals be chosen to attract high reader numbers
Without high readership, a portal is unlikely to attract maintainers. That's the other reason why the guidelines have always required that portal topics be be chosen to attract high reader numbers
The pageview data consistently shows that only very broad topics consistently attract large number of readers and editors.
NA1K's endless wikilawyering deception is all just part of a NA1K's determination to ensure that Wikipedia retains large numbers of unmaintained, almost unread portals.
It's also sadly typical of NA1K's snarky mendacity that their comment closes with the remark BHG has hurriedly, unilaterally, and rather eagerly continued to remove many links to the portal from various pages. I was discussing those removals above with NA1K, and at 10:40 yesterday I wrote long reply explaining why I was doing so. NA1K hasn't even acknowledged that reply, and has instead deployedthe usual NA1K tactic of avoiding specifics and instead casting unfounded aspersions.
Far from rushing to remove the backlinks, I did no systematic removal of them (other than some manual edits to templates) until early July, which was 5 months after the portal culling began. I began clearing the backlog in early July because the tracking categories Category:Portal templates with redlinked portals and Category:Portal templates with all redlinked portals had become swamped and overloaded with thousands of entries. Having cleared most of the backlog, I now try to keep on top of it by promptly removing backlinks to deleted portals. It's a tedious maintenance job, which I undertook because nobody else was doing it ... just I undertook the job of creating hundreds of thousands of automatic links to portals, because nobody was doing that either. By sadly, the serial liar NA1K prefers fantasies over facts, and prefers smears rather than honest dialogue. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 10:38, 1 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've been lurking on WP:MFD for a little while now, and I have to say, I really have a problem with you repeatedly calling NA1K a "serial liar" and coyly suggesting "severe reading comprehension problems", no matter what the context behind it may be. Most editors wouldn't get away with that. For the sake of maintaining a relatively civil editing environment, please tone it down a bit.--WaltCip (talk) 12:27, 1 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
But NA1K's serial lies are unpleasant and disruptive, and consensus-forming processes break when editors like NA1K repeatedly try to subvert them by lies, half-truths and FUD. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 13:42, 1 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I somewhat agree with WaltCip. I'm certainly not the civility police; I'm not offended by naughty words or heated conversations. And I understand that there's a long history behind this situation that is likely very frustrating, and you probably want to express that frustration. But, if your goal is to convince people of your point of view (whether it be NA1K or others), being a rude asshole to them is generally not the most effective strategy for getting people on your side. And I'm speaking from experience... hell, I was even blocked back in 2012 for a whole 24 minutes, for incivility and personal attacks. ‑Scottywong| spill the beans _ 16:10, 1 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The problem, Scotty, is that the persistent pattern is that for the many months when I responded with civility and openness to NA1K's fantasies, it just meant that NA1K's campaign of mendacity, deception and gaming-the-system continued unchallenged. (To give you an idea of how far NA1K is willing to go, their campaign of disruption extended even to stealthily depopulating the key tracking Category:All portals because it was "used by deletionists").
So I have taken now to directly and explicitly challenging and confronting NA1K's disruptive mendacity. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 16:43, 1 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have no intention to belabor the point, just saying that it's possible to challenge someone while being civil. They're not mutually exclusive. Of course, it's entirely up to you to decide how you'd prefer to interact with other people. ‑Scottywong| prattle _ 20:16, 1 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
On the AWB edits to remove portal-inline links and the like (which are what brought me here), I'll note that I would prefer if an actual bot performed them, in fully automated mode. This would solve any issue with perceived inconsistency with the AWB-related guidelines and allow to specify more fine-grained conditions for the removal, if desired. Nevertheless, as long as there's no active bot doing the job, such edits are an improvement. Nemo 07:23, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
User:Northamerica1000, User:BrownHairedGirl - I have just reread the close by ScottyWong, and I see nothing specific in it about re-creating the portal. I see that some of the Delete !voters were silent on the subject. I see that I said to Delete without prejudice to a miniature Main Page, noting that a Main Page is a labor-intensive effort. Multiple groups of volunteers work on the Main Page every day. It isn't one-and-done. A US state such as Wyoming shouldn't require daily work on the portal, but we have seen many many one-and-one efforts to revise a portal that just revise the portal once. I will oppose any re-creation of Portal:Wyoming, or any deleted US state portal or national portal, that doesn't have a maintenance schedule, as well as opposing any re-creation of any deleted regional portal even with a maintenance schedule that uses forked subpages. I will take any re-creation with forked subpages of any deleted portal first to G4 and then to MFD if that fails, and will request silver nitrate. If you really want to make the case that you have a superior design for a portal, you have Deletion Review. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:58, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion is probably now moot, because in recent MFD closes most of backlinks are being removed by the closers' scripts. So all I am doing is mopping up a few stragglers which the scripts don't handle, such as {{Subject bar}}. I am now in the process of removing lots of such links, which are now being tracked in Category:Subject bar templates with redlinked portals'after I added tracking to Module:Subject bar. Most of the instances I have encountered so far are of remaining subject bar link to add portal; the highest is six backlinks. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 23:05, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding some of your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Golf, surely you can convey your points about the strength of other editor's arguments without referring to them as "portalistas" or "liars". Even where legitimate rebuttals are made, the use of terms intended to describe the person being rebutted can overshadow the rebuttal itself. I would stress, in fact, that even if someone is a liar, the more effective counterargument is to treat their misstatements of fact as products of ignorance than of malice. Cheers! bd2412T 03:55, 4 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If I were to contribute to these discussions, I would be doing so in close agreement with BHG’s detailed points and broad rationales. However, I find the abusive debating style repugnant. I think the damage to other editors exceeds the improvement to the project by removal of these pages. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:50, 4 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@BD2412 and SmokeyJoe: Unfortunately, we have a serious problem. A bunch of editors who want to retain even abandoned junk portals (i.e portalistas) have taken to trying to sway MFD debates by repeatedly asserting as fact points which are demonstrably untrue and which they demonstrably know to be untrue.
I have taken to calling this out per WP:SPADE. But of course, I am open to suggestions of other ways to challenge these attempts to use mendacity to subvert consensus formation. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 09:01, 4 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
1. It saddens to see good people bickering. Try formal civility and bd2412’s suggestion.
2. I admit to not being able to understand the perspective of the portal enthusiasts. The method of arguing for the opponent can be very useful in these situations. It would mean asking them to help. I understand that you might consider this a waste of time delaying an already tedious process.
3. Guideline development I think is the way to go. I think you might become amenable to guideline work after you’ve eliminated portals clearly failing even the very loose requirements. Maybe another six months.
4. I find RfCs so hopelessly unformailised as to make them very unlikely to lead to progress. So many are opened with too-broad and unimportant questions, unilaterally. Let me know when they close. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:02, 4 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@SmokeyJoe, the problem is that all these processes rely on editors acting in good faith.
Unfortunately, what we have here is a small clique of editors who persistently fail to act in good faith. They have decided that: 1/ all portals are inherently a good thing; 2/ The guidelines which require that portals should be used and maintained should simply be ignored; 3/ That deletions are inherently bad, and may therefore be legitimately impeded by strategic lying.
The main practitioners of the strategic lying are currently NA1K and Hecato, tho one other appears to be warming up. Wikipedia's policy of AGF makes it relatively easy for such mendacious people to game the system. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 10:11, 4 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I know that there are often groups of editors who come together to press incorrect policy ideas with respect to certain issues. However, the outside observer sees a dispute wherein one participant appears to be calling other participants names, which these other participants can then complain about rather than needing to address salient points raised. I would just say to focus on the salient points, the evidence of a lack of interest in the portal proposed for deletion. At the end of the day, you are writing to persuade the closing admin of this, not other editors whose mind is already set against the existing state of fact and policy. bd2412T 13:14, 4 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
First, thank you so much for diligent hard work to vastly (and I mean VASTLY) improve the portalspace. That said, I would echo the above encouragement: it saddens me to see to see WP:SPADE invoked, because the result is often hurt feelings that do not provide a net benefit to the project in the long run, so I would encourage kinder language that focuses on the edits, not the editor. (Especially since I don't think it has resulted in a single MfD closing as delete that would have otherwise closed as keep had invective been absent). If the editor is not an obvious active vandal (and none of the current MfD participants are) I try to put myself in the other person's shoes to support my continued assumption of good faith. Doing that here, here's where I get on your 3 points above: both 1/ and the first half of 3/ are valid opinions good faith editors can hold (I don't hold them, but that's not relevant here). On 2/, the key words (for them) from the guideline are likely to, and I have this analogy: is the Sun likely to expand to a red giant and engulf the inner planets? Yes, it just needs enough time. And so "likely to" enables certain portal editors (again, not me) to, in good faith, believe a portal meets the "used and maintained" part of the guideline: they view the portal's past history, like the Sun's, as irrelevant to what they, in good faith, believe is likely to happen in the future. Because there can be good faith differences of opinion on what constitutes "likely", "broad subject area", and "large numbers" (all terms from the WP:POG guideline), we should be able to have invective-free discussions about where a given portal falls on either side of the judgement calls for those term (just like we do elsewhere on what constitutes a reliable source, for example). UnitedStatesian (talk) 14:10, 4 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
But we have a systemic problem here which some day will need wider attention. It goes like this:
Portals are a largely unscrutinised adjunct to Wikipedia.
Portals have been built without regard to basic content polices, or with guidelines/conventions specifically excluding them. For example, WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:TRIVIA, WP:WEIGHT, are all systematically flouted in portals.
A few portals are maintained by editors who also build and maintain encyclopedic content. But many (maybe most) portals have been built and/or maintained by editors who work only on portals. Few of these editors have any significant track record of creating encyclopedic content. One has created lots of DYKs, but I have found none of the portalistas who claims credit for a GA or FA. Some of the portal creators have difficulty in basic communication: e.g. Happypillsjr, who created over a hundred automated portals, has repeatedly written such aysmally incoherent contributions to discussions that I am simply unable to believe their claims that English is their first language.
At least one of the portalistas joined en.wp for the sole purpose of working on portals. A significant number of the other portalistas have stated that will retire if they don't have portals to work on.
So what we have here is a clique of editors who are WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia. Some of the portalistas do have interests elsewhere in en.wp, but there is a significant group who are only here for the portals and lack interest and/or ability to contribute to actual encyclopedic content.
The result is in some ways a akin to a group of desperadoes, who feel that cornered in the only part of Wikipedia where they have a place ... so they fight with whatever means possible to defend any old junk portal, simply because it's their last piece territory in this site.
So even back in February when there was discussion about deleting the automated spam portals, there were howls of pained outrage. On prominent portalista declared even the spam removal to be a "war on portals".
This battleground mentality which the portalistas have adopted since February has had various manifestations. There has been a persistent barrage of personal attacks on editors supporting the deletion of abandoned portals. There has been active sabotage of tracking categories. There have been attempts to rewrite the portal guideline to remove all quality standards. There have been malicious allegations against MFDs nominator of racism, religious prejudice, prejudice against non-European topics, vendettas against portals of interest to particular editors. You name it, it's been thrown.
I had thought that this cleanup phase would have been over long ago. I repeatedly said I doubted we'd go below 1400, 1300, 1200 etc ... but now we have fewer than 900 portals, and still there seems to be no shortage of abandoned junk like Portal:Harry Potter and Portal:Armenia. I have another few dozen lined up for MFD.
So as the number of portals continues to plummet, the portalistas are looking at a massive shrinkage of the only part of this site most of them are interested in and/or capable of contributing to. So they are getting desperate, and are now tag-teaming MFD with barrages of co-ordinated, flat-out lies.
I don't think that ordinary rebuttal is sufficient to rescue consensus-building in the face of the lying campaign by the portalista desperadoes. Sooner or later, this will have to be dealt with at a more systemic level. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 15:43, 4 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
On that question of "likely", I think you are being far too generous to the portlistas.
The reality in most off these cases:
Long-term neglect of the portal
Long-term low pageviews
Long-term decline in pageviews
There is hard data on all of those points.
Similarly, that there is hard data that ratio of active editors to articles continues to fall, so the availability of potential maintainers continues to fall.
All of that data demonstrates that it is not "likely" that the trend of portals being unmaintained and unread will be reversed. It is of course possible that unexpected events or trends may emerge, but it is not likely.
That it is why I have challenged them for actual evidence to support their claim of likelihood, and they have none. This is where we disagree about their good faith: there is zero evidence on their side, and a mountain of evidence against them, so their claims are not a matter of interpretation or of weighing conflicting data: they are simply counter-factual.
Please remember that this is not a social club or a web forum. We are here to build an encyclopedia, and we have a right to demand that those who want to participate in that process uphold relevant standards of analytical capacity and integrity. Insisting that something is "likely" when all the evidence presented points the other way is a pretty good marker of stupidity or mendacity or both.
For over a decade, portalspace has been the corner of wikipedia where low standards of integrity and competence have been institutionalised. We are now seeing the consequence of that, as people without the necessary personal attributes resort to anger and deception as their only tools to defend the only sandpit they can play in. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 16:04, 4 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
User:BrownHairedGirl, NA1K is not acting in good faith, and that he is repeated lying? This needs to be resolved. Is the editor lying at MfD. If no, then what, and you should stop repeating the allegation. If yes, then the community should take action, because lying is disruptive. I think if you feel justified to accusing an admin three times of lying in a formal discussion (eg an MfD), then it needs to go to WP:AN. It is not OK to have one admin routinely accusing another of lying. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:13, 5 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's a pity that portals should cause such civil wars. If only the famous RfC had not received such a desperate response, the community could have found consensus on an ordinate disbanding of the unwanted portals, instead of the street by street urban warfare forced on us by the necessity to discuss deletion one by one. Nemo 07:30, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Error and Lying
User:BrownHairedGirl I agree with User:bd2412 and User:SmokeyJoe in particular as to the allegation than NA1k and others are lying. In English, there is a clear distinction between lying and the statement of seriously incorrect facts. We really should stretch the Assumption of Good Faith a long way for them. We know that they can't explain why they want portals, and the least unlikely explanation is that they believe things that we either can't understand or are just plain wrong. So I really believe that when they are saying things that are not true, they are not lying, but they have confused themselves or persuaded themselves of serious error. They aren't lying. Give them that assumption of good faith. Their stated facts are bunk, but they are bunk that they believe. (A Flat earth believer isn't lying when they say the Earth is flat. They believe it. It is just absurdly wrong. Similarly, the portal advocates have their own facts, and a man or woman is entitled to their own opinion but not their own facts, but that doesn't make the non-facts lies.
Dropping the use of the allegation of "lying" would improve civility. Robert McClenon (talk) 11:48, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
On reading NA1K’s RfAs, I got an unexpected new perspective. He has a history of judgement difficulties and an affection for trivia? I think it is a conflict for WP:AN resolution. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:47, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Discussions of administrators at WP:AN either get nowhere or get sent to the ArbCom, and there is nothing so blatant about NA1k that the ArbCom is likely to take a case. (Well, I did try to file an ArbCom case.) Robert McClenon (talk) 20:36, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Your ArbCom case was ill considered, there was no chance of them solving this obviously content-centred issue, and earlier steps of dispute resolution had not been attempted. If BHG’s allegations are true (I suspect that they basically are, although overegged in parts), then as a distasteful display between admins, WP:AN (or ANI Not sure, but I don’t think ANI’s 48 hour timeframe is right) is the right venue, and options on the table should be: Warning(s) about lying or accusation of lying; TBan from Portals; TBan from MfDs on portals. Alternatively, an RfC could be used, but not a half baked ill considered brain fart like the several currently muddying the water. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:33, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
User:BrownHairedGirl - I see that the most common issue involved in allegations of lying is what the portal guideline, if it is a guideline, says. The advocates of portals actually believe that the noun phrase is meant to be the full statement of the rule and the qualifying clauses are merely detail. That is probably good marketing. It isn't good computer science or requirements engineering. I don't think it is good legal reasoning, but that depends on the school of legal reasoning. I was wondering whether it is good analytical philosophy, but I think that an analytical philosopher will develop a complex rule as to when the qualifying clause actually limits the noun phrase. A requirements engineer or computer scientist says that the qualifying phrase wouldn't be there unless it was part of the rule.
It is frustrating to argue with editors who have a different way of interpreting a statement than we do, but they are not lying. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:36, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Could you please fill me in on portals?
Hello, I came across your above discussion on abandoned portals and became very intrigued about the topic. As you know, I participated in the Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Harry Potter (2nd nomination) discussion after reading your thorough analysis and investigation of that portal, and reading the portal myself. I once spent a significant amount of time cleaning up pages for a different fandom, Fruits Basket, which included removing long abandoned junk articles like Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kyo Sohma, cleanup like this and more. It was all stuff created during the years the manga was still coming out, but editor interest sharply withered within a year or two of the manga's end. A new anime series based on the manga is actually currently coming out so there is some renewed interest now.
It seems like your portal cleanup is very similar in nature to the cleanup I did for Fruits Basket, so I am interested in understanding the portal cleanup effort. Is it just you who's undertaking this and what is the end goal? Where precisely would you ideally like to see the portal section of Wikipedia end up? I don't see myself nominating any for deletion, but would like to contribute to the cleanup effort now that I know there is a mess. (Since some people have been causing a lot of trouble in this sphere, it seems prudent to say that if I end up at any more MfD's, I'm doing so of my own accord, so no one can justly accuse BHG of canvassing me.) Thank you! Newshunter12 (talk) 22:56, 4 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your msg! Several big questions, which deserve a longer answer than either of my braincells can give in the small hours. So I will reply properly in the morning.
In the meantime, some of my friendly talk page stalkers may choose to comment. And you might find it helpful to look at two essays by @Robert McClenon: WP:PWP and WP:GODOT. Robert and I have chewed over a lot of the issues with portals, and there are many areas where our thinking overlaps.
User:Newshunter12 – Thank you for asking about portals. I will try to add a little to what User:BrownHairedGirl has written. Portals are a feature of Wikipedia that can be used for showcasing, navigation, instruction or promotion, and for fun. Th.ey have always been a feature of Wikipedia, and, since 2006, have been in Portal space. Some editors are very enthusiastic about portals. I have never known exactly why, and I am inclined to think that, because they can't explain clearly what the advantages of portals are, they must be something that are liked because they are seen as technically neat. (I once worked on testing a computer system that may have had a lot of leading-edge software components that were selected because they were technically neat. It was a technical mess.) I don't know what value the advocates of portals think that they add, so I think that they must be seen as technically neat, rather than as functionally valuable.
As the essays that BHG has listed explain, portals are intended to be maintenance-intensive, but normally they are not maintained. I think that the advocates of portals, whom some of us call portalistas, are denying the need for maintenance.
In any case, early in 2018, when there were just under a thousand portals in existence (I think – I haven't checked my notes for the numbers), there was an RFC to delete all portals. It was closed with a consensus not to delete all portals, but with no other specific conclusions. Then a task force that I call the portal platoon decided that we (English Wikipedia) needed more portals, and decided to create thousands of more portals. They did this more or less quietly, and had created a total of 5700 portals, and most of the new portals were just automated crud. I then reported the thousands of portals at WP:AN, and since then some of us have been bringing portals to MFD for deletion. The portalistas have been claiming that we are waging a "war on portals". (I think they conducted a sneak attack by creating thousands of them, but that is only my opinion.) Most of the portals that were created in the wave of reckless portal creation were deleted in two bulk nominations to MFD that were expertly submitted by User:BrownHairedGirl. But since then, she and I and a few other editors who are skeptical about how much portals add have been working slowly to nominate some of the abandoned portals for deletion. We have the number of portals back down below a thousand now. Many of the portal deletion debates are bitter and unpleasant. Obviously the portalistas and portal platoon think that portals are valuable. I really don't understand what the value is, other than being technically neat.
Any informed assistance that we can be given in checking the status of portals and deleting the cruddiest ones will be appreciated. I don't think that we have a specific endpoint. I think that some of us who are trying to clean up portals would like to see a few hundred high-quality portals, and some of us would prefer to see more like twenty, or to delete all of them except for the main page, which is a super-portal and is labor-intensive. Do you have any specific questions at this point?
Robert McClenon (talk) 18:57, 5 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Robert McClenon Thank you for this very informative and descriptive breakdown of the situation, and information about portals in general. This, coupled with the information BHG provided and what I've picked up at MfD has pretty much brought me up to speed and I have no further questions about portals. I'm certainly interested in keeping an eye on portals at MfD and if I find time, will look for dud portals to funnel towards MfD. Thank you again so much for your detailed response. I can't emphasize that enough. Newshunter12 (talk) 02:24, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Helpful summary indeed, I had lost track of the discussion until I recently saw the removal of all those hideous links to portals from articles. I took the liberty to add some links and I wish this could be depersonalised and copied to some page in project namespace, possibly Wikipedia:The Problems with Portals. Nemo 08:03, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you
Hi BrownHairedGirl,
I stumbled across your page on Boleslaw Limanowski while doing a google search on myself and my family members. I couldn’t believe it when I saw my grandfather’s name come up in Wikipedia! Then I started reading and realized this was actually my grandfather’s grandfather, whom he was named after. I don’t know very much about this side of my family, so it was really amazing to see this information and to find out a little more about my ancestors. So thank you for publishing this article, it has given me real joy that I can’t wait to pass on to the rest of my family and hopefully one day future Limanowski’s too.
BrownHairedGirl and Robert McClenon, I recommend Portal:Land of Oz be brought to MfD. It has essentially been abandoned for a decade (the creator only touched it for about a week and his last edit to Wikipedia was in 2007). The DYK section was last constructively updated in 2008. The Oz books section has been touched twice since 2009, the last time in 2015. The things to do section last touched in 2012. The wikiproject section untouched since creation in 2011, while the associated wikiproject is long dead. The categories section last constructively edited in 2011. There was a rename in May and an editor claimed they were going to do a lot of work on it, but didn't follow through. All these little sub-pages got title updates in May, by the way. The page view count is abysmal. From June 1 2019 until July 30, there was an average of 3 visits per day to the main page. The long term trend is even more stark, given that per day rate in July and August 2015 was 20 per day.
As you know, this is my first time evaluating a portal and I did the best I could. I hope you find this helpful and please let me know if/how I can better prepare portal reports for your evaluation. Newshunter12 (talk) 18:44, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I will be nominating it. It's a shame. I'm a fan of the literature, but the pageviews (nonpageviews) are conclusive. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:08, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, @Newshunter12. That's a good analysis. And great to know that @Robert McClenon will be doing the MFD nom.
Thanks guys. Glad I could help with this effort. Good luck crafting the MfD, Robert McClenon, and with your work, BHG. Just try to channel Thomas the Choo Choo Train, BHG. I think I can, I think I can - maybe there's even a portal for that extensive topic? Newshunter12 (talk) 05:11, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Robert McClenon Here is another one for MfD. Portal:Jacksonville, Florida Just about everything on the page was last updated (aside from a name change by BHG) 5+ years ago when the portal was first created by Mathew105601, who last touched the portal in 2015, although they continued to edit on Wikipedia until April of this year. From June 1 2019 until July 30, there was an average of 1 visit per day to the main page, while Jacksonville, Florida in the same period averaged 1925 visits a day. Newshunter12 (talk) 01:41, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
User:Newshunter12 Yes. I see what you mean. I was in Jacksonville once. I didn't go by Choo Choo. The charter flight that we were on was diverted to Jacksonville on return to the United States due to blizzard. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:54, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Another crud portal ripe for MfD: Portal:NASCAR It has essentially been completely abandoned since the sole fan-maintainer (Nascar1996) left Wikipedia in 2017 (aside from a few stray edits elsewhere into Feb 19), but parts of the page have been abandoned for a decade (the creator only created the portal, never touched it again, and his last edit to Wikipedia was in 2012). Five of the six biographies are virtually unchanged since 2010, while one was created in 2016. All 10 pictures were uploaded in 2010-11 and do not well reflect current drivers, car designs, or league names in descriptions. The news section was last touched in 2015. but it is automated. However, the five pieces of posted news are from 2013-16, and three are from 13-14 about Jeff Gordon, who retired in 2015. He's a legend in the sport, so it's exceedingly noticeable to anyone who knows much about NASCAR. The DYK section was last updated in 2010. The selected article section has 15 articles, but 10 were added to the portal in 2010-11, two in 2012, and three in 2015, and they are overwhelmingly about individual races over just a few years. The wikiproject section is untouched since 2011, and while the two primarily associated wikiprojects are still active in 2019, those wider communities don't appear to have ever been a part of this portal; only the maintainer did both. The categories section has same content as in 2010. The topics section unchanged from 2010. The page view count is low. From June 1 2019 until July 30, there was an average of 11 visits per day to the main page. The long term trend is grim, given that per day rate in July and August 2015 was 20 per day. From June 1 2019 until, July 30, the head article NASCAR had a visit rate per day of 1330.
In sum, this portal was always just a fan creation of Nascar1996, built to their taste, generally stuck in 2010-11 and left to completely rot when they didn't want it anymore. It's also funny that the NASCAR portal is old, decrepit, and has declining popularity because that perfectly describes NASCAR itself! Maybe this portal does belong... It is stuck nearer happier years for NASCAR after all. Newshunter12 (talk) 06:48, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
dab page for Portal:New York
Hi BrownHairedGirl,
I understand that the New York page is a dab page, however, I believe that Portal:New York should remain as a redirect to Portal:New York (state), because changing it to a dab page would "break" or at least cause confusion to hundreds of pages that use this Portal. I suppose we could change all the pages that pages that use this portal, most of which are meant to go to the New York state portal. Natg 19 (talk) 20:14, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Additionally, it seems that the Portal template for "New York",
AFAICs, there is no primary topic. So that means that we use a dab page.
Nothing is broken by pointing to a dab page. Links will be disambiguated as and when editors are interested in doing so. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 20:37, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If it were up to me, I'd merge them and have a single portal for the city and state (the city being in, and the most prominent element of, the state). The separation of the articles in mainspace is not binding on their treatment in portal space. bd2412T 20:51, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@BD2412: I wouldn't oppose a merger. But some editors would have strong views, so it would need some sort of discussion.
Wouldn't this be a WP:surprise for users who see the flag of NY state and are pointed to a dab page? For a normal end user, that would seem to be unhelpful. I am typically for dab pages, but not when they break or change behavior for hundreds of other pages that use this Portal. Natg 19 (talk) 21:19, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The state flag now displays only for the state. If you want to suggest an icon for the dab page, it will take seconds to put it in place. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 21:27, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have added my oppose[2]: it's an ill-considered proposal which will wreck chronology categorisation. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 05:23, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Cheers; I thought it would affect the work you have been doing.
BTW, your antepenultimate para there has an incomplete sentence. – FayenaticLondon 06:43, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Take this to WP:DR or WP:AN. I am not a one-woman court to act as judge, jury and executioner in a cases of alleged misconduct in complex content disputes. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 07:30, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hi, I'm interested in banning a disruptive user who has a long history of engaging in edit-warring, misrepresenting data, specifically targeting Wikipedia articles that revolve around a single topic to push an agenda, and is an all-around Wikipedia dragon who is just polluting honest discourse on the encyclopedia. He's widely disagreeable, with his disruptive edits going as far back as 2017. I've spoken with other admins over this topic and they've all pretty much said that it's all a very technical issue to go about with since he's been getting away with this behavior for so long, and has essentially created consensus with this aforementioned 2-year-long, trackable campaign. I'm positive I can prove he is being disruptive and is attempting to push a narrative through the wiki, which is why I'm pursuing this route rather than trying to debunk ALL of the information he has individually put out. What are my options with this user? HueyXocoatzin (talk) 02:11, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@HueyXocoatzin: I see we've been active on Wikipedia for about the same time. Without commenting on the situation, I just want to caution you that from my experience that it's really really hard for newer users like us to get an editor blocked if they have been here longer. That's at least been my experience anyways, so I tend to avoid interacting with such users whom I know to be poor actors. (talk page watcher) –MJL‐Talk‐☖ 02:28, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@MJL: Thanks for the input. I at one point just disregarded the edits, but as I continue browsing Wikipedia, I see more and more of his edits with the exact same motive in mind; essentially whitifying Mexico.[3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11] I don't know what his motives are, but I suspect their origins lie in specific internet forums that revolve around toxic politics, and I don't think this sort of influence should be on Wikipedia even if the editor's insistant on maintaining such influence on these articles. Cheers.HueyXocoatzin (talk) 04:01, 10 August 2019 (UTC)HueyXocoatzin[reply]
@HueyXocoatzin: [Thank you for the ping] I'm really really uncomfortable getting in the middle of this. –MJL‐Talk‐☖ 04:13, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@MJL: Sorry for the uncomfortable situation, I just needed to go a little more in detail on why exactly I feel the need to do this. I guess all there is now is wait for any admin to respond back, which I hope is soon. Thanks for keeping me company! Have a good night!HueyXocoatzin (talk) 04:22, 10 August 2019 (UTC)HueyXocoatzin[reply]
Greetings to the administrator BrownHairedGirl, I know it may be out of etiquete but I feel that I have to intervene here, because as it happened months ago, the editor Hueyxocoatzing is greatly distorting the reality of this issue as portraying me as something I'm not, in fact the administrator that intervened in the previous conflict i had with this editor (Oshwah) acknowledged that he judged me wrongly and that I was the side of the conflict that was in the right (this, as well as the fact that I'm not the only editor that has reverted that kind of edits is what Hueyxocoatzin complains about "me creating concensus"). The reality here is, as is clear on my summaries in the article's edit [12] the editor Huyxocoatzin completely disregards what the sources say and removes them under completely false claims (here, he discredits a source saying that is from 1800 [13] but the book actually was published on 1960) that's his modus operandi everytime and is tremendously agressive when it comes to reverting, another administrator, Edjohnston blocked an account that had a similar editing behaviour [14] on articles regarding the ethnicity of Mexicans (agressively reverting whilst disregarding sources [15][16]) and also acknowledged that I was on the right side on said issue, I would appreciate your opinion on this. Pob3qu3 (talk) 02:39, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I sincerely doubt that Oshwah would ever say that you were in the right in regards to our little spat considering I spent some time sending emails back and forth with him explaining the situation. He agreed that your original edit made about 2 years ago (outright disregarding consensus without getting checked) were problematic and are currently tough to go around. This is how you've essentially built consensus on the many articles regarding "white Mexicans", "Mexican Mestizos", phenotypic traits used to subjectively "identify" these white Mexicans, and the Demographics of Mexico, both on the Spanish and English versions of these topics on Wikipedia. As for the recent exchange between you and I, it's in regards to, again your subjective interpretation of a survey conducted by a Mexican government organization, identifying it as a sort of census even though all it reveals is how a surveyed group of Mexicans self-describe their skin tone, with no categorization of race in said survey. But to remedy this, you instead conduct an unpublished pseudo-meta analysis, conjoing one antiquated census with a book with a survey, to clumsily "connect the dots". But I'm not the first to tell you, Iñaki, Evergreenfir, Wikiedro and others have as well[17]. These tenuous mental links are dishonest, unfounded, and frustrating. I and others have written back essays to you to no avail[18], which is why I'm no longer engaging with you specifically and am only advising you of what I'm planning to do.
And FYI, my point for disregarding that source wasn't specifically the time period--although it is still antiquated--it was the fact that you're trying to link a mostly unrelated anecdote to the pigmentism survey of Mexico[19], which (if you haven't caught on) one is a survey in the 21st century and the other is a brief mention of what they individually saw in a specific region in Mexico in the mid-1900's[20].— Preceding unsigned comment added by HueyXocoatzin (talk • contribs) 04:01, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
We'll have to see what Oshwah and EdJohnston think of this (here's the last exchange I had with him, on which he asks me to notify him if you become conflictive again [21]), he does not mention said emailing he had with you at all, and as you acknowledged he never agreed with you (you also mentioned early that "I have built consensus" which means that many users agree with me, in that reply of yours you acknowledge that you are on the thin end here and against the current consensus). What you are doing is to try to remove well sourced, official data taking advantage of how taboo the topic of race is on Mexico and still, in the article there are sources, both official and from third parties that stright out say that there are Mexicans that look like Europeans and on which said group is consistently delimited from other Mexican ethnic groups. Additionally there are also sources on which the segemnt of the population of Mexico who has light phenotypical traits/European appearance are refered to as "White Mexicans" [22][23], I guess I'll have to incorporate these onto the article on which we are having the conflict. This has been more than enough to create a new, reasonable consensus (with no mention of all the other research there are about phenotypical traits in Mexicans such as hair and eye color), which is why several editors besides me have reverted edits like yours, thing that can be verified in the edit history of almost every article you linked in your previous replies, and why no administrator has ever sided with you. Pob3qu3 (talk) 04:52, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
In that discussion you linked, he states that the dispute died down. That means that I became uninterested with the topic by that point. I haven't checked how much time passed since I last messaged him, but I'm guessing some weeks of inactivity passed by that point. After all, I haven't invested my life to raiding Wikipedia articles regarding the racial demographics of Mexico. I never "acknowledged" him not agreeing with me, I don't know how you gathered that, but I stated that he agreed that your initial edits on the Demographics of Mexico article[24][25] were problematic. He states, "Sure, not a problem. To answer your question regarding whether it's 'against consensus to make large, new edits that are contradictory to a previous narrative in a given article without explaining it in the talk page or even the edit summary': Technically, it would be, yes... however, the majority of editors that do this are usually unaware that such discussions took place or that consensus already exists from them."[26] And the defintion used for consensus is "Consensus is a normal and usually implicit and invisible process across Wikipedia. Any edit that is not disputed or reverted by another editor can be assumed to have consensus. Should that edit later be revised by another editor without dispute, it can be assumed that a new consensus has been reached. In this way, the encyclopedia is gradually added to and improved over time."[27] This is the definition for consensus, not "widespread agreement". If it were the case that your edits are widely agreeable, then your edits wouldn't have a history of being so controversial in the first place.
Your citations continue to not be sourced from any scientific site or organization, but you continue to push this conspiracy that "Mexico is hiding the true demographics because they aren't pleased with the size of the white population". You cite tabloids to corroborate your claim that these light-brown-skinned individuals are white as if these journalists are scientific analysts. The studies continue to say "light skin" and they clearly conflate light-brown skin with fair skin, no mention of "European phenotypical traits". But don't fret about this ambiguity, because an actual organization dedicated to data analysis exists, and they're called Habitalia.[28] They've done the professional work and consultations, and they've distilled the data from various studies on pigmentation and have seperated "intermediate" skin from fair skin, as other editors have been pointing out and you've been looking over. They state: "El 67% de la población mexicana entre 25 y 64 años de edad autoclasifica su color de piel en tonos intermedios." That leaves the fair skin population at 12%, the OBVIOUS if you couldn't already gather that from the charts themselves. So there you go; no where to hide behind now.
By the way, I have recieved admin support, which is why you were temporarily blocked from editing for some period of time. And from what I've seen, I'm probably the first person to pursue admins the way I have with this dispute over the demographics of Mexico, albeit lazily because I never bothered to go through with my plan, I've only ever asked for advice. And you can continue fooling yourself that my deletions are unfounded, even though I've already gone in depth both in the edit history and talk page refuting your points: from your misinterpretation of "Calidad Español" meaning racially European to your misinterpretation of modern survey data related to skin pigmentation in Mexico.[29] — Preceding unsigned comment added by HueyXocoatzin (talk • contribs) 06:35, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@HueyXocoatzin, it seems that my reply below may have been to subtle.
So I will be more direct: enough. This is is neither the means nor the place to resolve this. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 07:02, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@BrownHairedGirl: Sorry about that, I posted this at just about the time I checked for a response from you. I think I was probably almost done typing this out when you starting typing to me. Sorry for this ugly mess, I was specifically trying to avoid this by trying not to engage with him. HueyXocoatzin (talk) 07:07, 10 August 2019 (UTC)HueyXocoatzin[reply]
@HueyXocoatzin, so you expected me to consider your request to ban an editor, and to do so without even hearing their side of the story? Wow. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 07:26, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The first thing I need to say is that absolutely no way that I or any other responsible admin will jump at the request of one editor and ban another editor over a content dispute. There are too many layers of inappropriateness in that request for me to explain them all without a vast screed, so I'll summarise with a brief quote from my user page:
"like any admin, I am not your private army in a content dispute".
The core of this matter is a content dispute. Where two editors disagree about content, I would expect the disagreement to proceed roughly as follows:
One or two reverts, but per WP:BRD, a quick move to
Discussion on the article's talk page, assuming good faith, and trying to reach consensus
Instead, I see that you produce no evidence of any of those steps, just a request for me to parachute in and ban someone.
No no no no. I am not gonna do that.
Please note that I have not formed a view on who is right here. It may be that one of you is POV-pushing, or that the other is POV-pushing, or that you both are, or that nobody is POV-pushing and that it's all just a misunderstanding.
Please also note that I have not formed a view on whose conduct is better here. It may be that one or other of you is a saint and the other a miscreant, but I have not attempted to weigh that. Maybe you are both rogues? Or maybe you are both great editors whose wires are crossed.
@BrownHairedGirl: I understand that no admin will just carelessly outright ban one editor at the request of another; I was planning on going more into detail on this case once you asked for more information. Just to confirm, and I've had this talk before, posting biased information/misrepresenting sources to push an agenda is strictly prohibited. Doing this to various articles related to the topic being altered is tendentious editing. This would make that editor a bad-faith actor, and thusly be labeled a disruptive editor who would ultimately get banned. Am I missing something here? It's been a while since I've been involved in this.
And just to clarify, I have attempted to reach consensus on this topic before[30] and so have other editors[31][32][33]. Consensus has never been reached, it appears that Pob3qu3 just isn't a very flexible or honest person, he's set in his ways and there's no changing it. He's got the time and dedication to these articles that none of us have, and that's turned out to be a problem.HueyXocoatzin (talk) 07:16, 10 August 2019 (UTC)HueyXocoatzin[reply]
I remain unpersuaded that you have made reasonable efforts to take this through the normal WP:DR pathways.
Even if you had done that, and believed you were dealing with a rogue editor, you have still failed to make a prima facie case that there was the misconduct you allege.
And even if you had made that prima facie case, you still don't get the core point that I am making: I have not asked for more info, and I will not ask for more info, because I am not your one-woman private army. If you want to pursue this as a conduct matter, please take it to WP:AN. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 07:27, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Sorry For Offending You
I'm not exactly sure what exactly could've triggered a response like this. I don't know if I insulted you in some way or if I was being particularly rude. I wanted to present my case in full, and I'm sure part of the process would be to let the person being accused of disruptive editing make a case for themselves, I don't think I have any power over whether I want them to make a case for themselves or not. I think there was a misunderstanding of what I meant by "not engaging him", which I meant not continuing this toxic cycle of back and forths that go no where. I wouldn't want to interfere in the process to get this issue resolved. I think I came at this a little too hot, which I really shouldn't expect anyone to just sympathize with right off the bat given a massive lack of background. Again, sorry for offending you. I'd like to know where I went wrong in this. HueyXocoatzin (talk) 07:47, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@HueyXocoatzin, it all comes down to you expecting a lone admin to hear the case. That's just not the way that Wikipedia works.
And then being slow to take the hint that you should try other routes.
User:HueyXocoatzin - The way I see it,and I know nothing about the content background of the dispute, is that you dumped a too long, difficult to read complaint about third-party behavior at BHG even after she said that she wasn't going to fight your battle for you. I don't know who was right, but you unintentionally provoked her by continuing when she said to stop. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:05, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
User:Robert McClenon In my defense, the bulk of the background related to the content was being discussed between Pob3qu3 and I in my previous talk section. I only asked her if my interpretation of tendentious editing was correct while providing evidence that I and other editors have attempted to discuss this in the past with Pob3qu3 on the article's talk page, which she stated she saw none of. This was my reply to her first reply to me. My second response to her was clarifying that my long response to Pob3qu3 was published at around the same time she published her first response to me along with an apology on my part stating that I didn't intend to have this long winded discussion with Pob3qu3 on her talkpage, which I was then accused of not wanting her to hear his side of the story.
I didn't intend to offend her, but my responses were taken as such and now you and I are having this discussion over some misunderstandings. Cheers. HueyXocoatzin (talk) 21:26, 10 August 2019 (UTC)HueyXocoatzin[reply]
A barnstar for you!
The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
For cleanup after portal deletions ~Kvng (talk) 14:40, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks, @Kvng. It has been a long slog. About 100,000 edits so far, but it's nearly done. I am now down to about the least 2,000. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 14:46, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi there how are you? I noticed you were recently editing Addiction and thought if you had time and I could interest you could assist me as many others have in my cleanup and improvement of the Digital media use and mental health category.
Theres a few page move / terminology discussions
1. Here (social media addiction)
2. Here (Internet addiction disorder)
Hi, can you check recent edits to the above article? I'm not American and am not sure about them. Thanks Denisarona (talk) 05:55, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi BrownHairedGirl, this is Fgt30256. I'm creating a wikipedia page for my company(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Nreal). As a wiki rookie, I've researched and followed all the rules to create the draft(please forgive me if there's still something wrong or missing). The article is objective and cited from well-known media.
My friend suggested me contacting a wiki editor to get the feedback and eventually get the articles published. Wondering if there's anything missing or I should do to get this draft published.
I'd avoid the p-------a word there for now. Leave it to brew for a while. Cheers, Johnbod (talk) 21:35, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. If the label is a distraction, I'll drop the label, and revert to longer descriptive phrases. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 21:54, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
An admin is repeatedly accusing another admin of deception, lying. Let's get this resolved please. So many other things are hurt by being in its shadow. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:19, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@SmokeyJoe I have used that approach continually throughout my career as a minor player on the edge of politics. I have long held that you cannot make our case effectively unless you can also make their case effectively. I routinely use position-swapping debate not only as communication practice, but also in policy formation. Sometimes the process reveals that on some point big or small, the other side is factually right or more in keeping with or values.
And in 13 years on Wikipedia, I have used that approach repeatedly in discussions.
However, that approach of Writing for the opponent only works if you believe that the other side is acting in good faith. They may be mistaken, or even massively mistaken, but so long as we believe the other side to be genuine, then the process works, and can be very valuable.
In this case, there was something I had never before encountered on Wikipedia. An experienced editor and admin was repeatedly saying things which are not only demonstrably untrue, but which they clearly know to be demonstrably untrue.
User:BrownHairedGirl - I haven't seen any statements that the experienced editor and admin made that they apparently knew were not true. They ought to know that they are not true, but they don't. Portals have a weird charm for some editors. So, as I have said at WP:AN again, it isn't necessary to lay off the 'portalista' word, but 'lying' shouldn't be said if the other party is deluded or self-deluded, and the portals have gotten them to be unable to parse a complex sentence in the guideline. Lay off the 'lying'. As we say at DRN, comment on content, not contributors. Tell the truth, but the untrue statements are not lies. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:51, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree with advocating "Lay off the 'lying'". The allegation was made, the cycle repeated both sides, repeatedly. It needs a resolution. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:59, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Civility_issues_with_User:BrownHairedGirl. I would call this closed with wishful thinking that if both will wind back a notch then all will be well. Possibly. If you become certain that again an admin commits to engaging with lies and deception, I hope you will take it to WP:AN seeking for that admin to be counselled, and not escalate to the toxicity of repeated assertions of lying and deception. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:26, 16 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@SmokeyJoe, as this escalated, I retained a hope that no admin would actually sustain mendacity when called out. Sadly, that turned out to be a miscalculation. So yes, I will bring any further occurrences to ANI.
Note too that this followed months of aggression by portal-focused editors who repeatedly engaged in both direct personal attacks on individual editors involved in cleaning up the sea of abandoned portals, and in general denunciations of "deletionists". In the interests of peace, I have committed not to using a collective term for those editors, but I will insist that this applies in both directions. So if there is any resumption of denouncing "deletionists", or claiming that there is a "war on portals", or more battlefield conduct from those editors, then I will also bring that to ANI.
Please note that if I had followed that bring-it-to-ANI approach for the last 6 months, I would have made hundreds of ANI complaints over that period. The consensus at AN was clearly that the battlefield atmosphere has to stop, so I will no longer make allowances for the sustained vitriol of members of the portal project. I hope that those who have mounted this 6-month campaign of abuse will desist, and that trips to ANI will not be needed. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 10:41, 16 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I understand. I suggest that the line for taking something to WP:AN (not ANI) is repeated deception/lying by an admin. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:54, 16 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
User:SmokeyJoe, User:BrownHairedGirl - Yes, but.... I think that part of the problem is that a large number of editors had systematically deluded themselves, which isn't exactly lying, but is untrue. Yuck. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:37, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
We all have delusions. Deluded editors is the standard operating condition. There’s nothing new to get excited about there. It’s the head to head clash of two admins that must be resolved. An editor who systematically and deliberately lies to deceive should be warned then blocked. If the editor is an admin it is even more serious. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:18, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Robert McClenon, I don't see any basis for excusing this point as delusion.
But the main thing is that the deception has stopped, so we can all move on. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 10:33, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
At Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Sustainable development you are personalising the debate with the other party. Is he doing something unacceptable? If no, then don't personalise. If yes, we can't just move on. If the unacceptable is bad enough to not pass by, then it requires more than throwing mud, it demands the spotlight. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:28, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
User:SmokeyJoe, User:BrownHairedGirl - Yes, User:Northamerica1000 is doing something unacceptable, which is using numbers in a way that is technically true but misleading, that will confuse a good-faith editor who is not mathematically literate, by using gross pageview statistics rather than daily pageview statistics when multiple other editors have been using daily pageview averages. Yes, they are doing something wrong. Robert McClenon (talk) 13:32, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@SmokeyJoe, XFD is supposed to be a reasoned debate, like any other consensus-forming discussion. When an editor tries manipulative tactics (as they have confirmed), and digs in to stubbornly demonstrate low comprehension of the matter in hand, noting that failure is relevant to the discussion.
The severe CIR issues displayed there do raise wider issues, which some day will need to be tackled. But for the debate to properly examine the matter in hand, those issue cannot be entirely ignored in the debate. There is a fine balance to be struck when dealing with someone who is both far out of their depth and apparently unaware of the fact, and I dob't claim to always get the balance right. But letting nonsense go unchallenged betrays our enyclopdeic purpose. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 06:04, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
CIR? Aka Hanlon's razor? I have explained what a statistic is. It is a often misused word. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:08, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It is very difficult in any collaboration for others to strike an suitable balance between humane civility and the needs for error correction when dealing with those who lack both competence and awareness of their limitations. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 06:25, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I assumed you knew that I knew very well what CIR means. CIR would mean lacking of deceptive intent. Both CIR and deceptive behaviour are incompatible with being an admin. I know this is difficult. I feel better positioned to offer you constructive criticism because I am on your side. I don't know what advice I could give to the other side, given that I am at a loss to understand their motivation in wanting to support mass portals. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:41, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, @SmokeyJoe, and sorry I missed the understandings.
Bedtime now, but I will have something reflective to add after time in the sack. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 06:46, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
At Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Sustainable development, I stated, "A problem with relying upon the average page views as a statistic is that this method consistently misrepresents the views a page actually receives, to a lower-than-actual number. For example, when multiplying the average page views of 93 x 30 days, the total is 2,790 views. However, the actual page views are 2,891, over 100 more than using the average" (as per this). I understand the point BHG is making about a better comparison being available using the average, but isn't that comparison also slightly compromised by rounding? There is no dishonesty intended in my comment at the discussion or elsewhere; it seems more honest to provide both the actual page views as well as the average, relative to the WP:POG standard of a portal page being "likely to attract large numbers of interested readers." However, I am also willing to be convinced if there's something inferior about providing both figures, and welcome input about the matter. This is a serious inquiry to see where others stand about the statistics matter, and again, I am open to other's views. Furthermore, per recent discussion at the portal guideline page, and as I stated at the AN discussion, I have moderated my views regarding portal "notability". I'm an honest person by nature, and value honesty. Pinging SmokeyJoe and Robert McClenon who have contributed here. I am really looking forward to moving on in a manner that is congruent with everyone getting along. I understand stats and mathematics just fine, that's not the issue. Ultimately, just convince me that the thirty-day total page views are an inferior metric relative to WP:POG's "likely to attract large numbers of interested readers", and provide rationale why. You may be surprised that I may actually agree with you. North America1000 07:40, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
User:Northamerica1000 - Do you have a question,since you named me? If there is a problem with the tool or with roundoff, please explain it somewhere else. It still does not warrant using a statistic that is not comparable to the daily pageview statistics that the rest of us have been using. You will notice that I quickly raised the matter of a high-readership portal using its daily pageview rate at about the same time as you did with the raw count, but I think that my mention would have been better understood by the audience for comparison. What is your question for me? Robert McClenon (talk) 13:45, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No particular question. I noticed some concerns here about my generic page view post at the discussion, so I included you in pinging, as I have no idea if you watchlist this page or not. See below where I start with "I've thought about it a bit more...", which I have. What it comes down to, since the status quo/consensus is to post the average daily page views, I'll do that then. It's not like I'm going to now rush to post page views, but when nominators don't post them, it comes across as equitable to provide them, to provide a more objective overview of the state of the portal's existence. Sorry to have bothered you if that's the case. The intention is to acquire input. North America1000 14:16, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think raw pageviews are a distraction, but that 30 per day is negligible, and 1000 per day is a threshold level. I think portals are broadly a failure, and that only the mainpage listed portals are viable portals. I think WP:POG existed as a backwater dream, disconnected from community consensus, and that "likely to attract large numbers of interested readers" is a faulty criterion. "likely to attract large numbers of interested readers" appears to encourage the glossy promotionalism of a tourist bureau posters, and is unconstrained by matching guidance to actually be useful. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:55, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@SmokeyJoe: Well, it wasn't meant to distract, although I will admit to a small bit of laziness on my part, since it's easy to just post the thirty day breakdown and report the total views as a general quick overview, particularly since the nominator at the Sustainable development portal MfD said nothing in the nomination about page views. The intention was to provide some neutral information about page views. However, BHG is stating that this method is not neutral, whereas posting the average daily views is. Perhaps it's best if I just provide the average views from now on when doing so. If there's no objection to that, then I can just do that instead. Not a big deal, really. North America1000 08:03, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It is also easy just to report the average. If your point was to provide a quick notation that Mark S was nominating high-view-rate portals, you will notice that I did exactly that, using daily pageview rates. Either you weren't thinking, the good-faith assumption, or you were trying to mislead by throwing in numbers that are much higher than daily rates. Robert McClenon (talk) 13:32, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've probably said enough here, so keeping this short. The intention was solely to provide a quick notation. As I stated, from this point onward, if posting this type of data, I'll use the daily page view average. However, maybe I'll simply leave it to others to do so. Maybe it's not even that important, particularly if a portal is headed for deletion regardless of whether or not page views are presented in the discussion. North America1000 14:33, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@SmokeyJoe: Regarding your views about portals in general, while I don't entirely share your view, I understand where you are coming from. I have resigned to the fact that some portals just aren't going to make it, as has already been demonstrated. I've edited portals through the years from time-to-time, and feel that while they have some merit, conversely, some just aren't getting enough views or maintenance. I also understand how some feel about outdated content in portals, because I agree with them. Part of the goodness in using transclusions from articles right on the main portal pages to present content (e.g. such as with Template:Transclude random excerpt) is that the content is always up-to-date relative to what's in articles. North America1000 08:20, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've thought about it a bit more, and I can see how the provision of only page views in a thirty day period does not provide enough context, per its open-ended nature. I did just fine in statistics in college; competence is certainly not an issue. The fact of the matter is that my comment was simply meant to provide some simple page view information, since the nominator did not address page views in their nomination whatsoever. My comment was just that, a comment, not an !vote of any sort. I did not state whether or not I felt this was an adequate number of views relative to WP:POG; it was just a simple, open-ended post to provide a bit more context. Again, I can see how the level of context provided was inadequate.
Personally, when actually considering page views relative to WP:POG, I've been somewhat thinking at times along the line of the views providing relevance compared to the page views that other portals receive. As a generic example, the Sustainable development portal receives a daily average of 93 page views, and when compared to, say, a portal about a small African country that only receives around 10 daily average page views, the Sustainable development portal would be doing comparatively better, and thus more likely to meet WP:POG's criteria of attracting adequate numbers of interested readers.
However, it appears that comparing page views of the corresponding article and portal is what people are more interested in. So, compare the Sustainable development portal's 93 average daily page views (link) against the main Sustainable development article's average daily views of 2,347 (link). Of course, it could then be surmised that the portal is a failure in attracting "large numbers of interested readers" compared to the views the corresponding article receives. However, portals almost always receive much lower page views compared to their corresponding article. A question is, what sort of ratio is acceptable for a portal to meet WP:POG? Should a portal receive at least 1/4 the page views that the corresponding article receives, 1/6/, 1/8? There's no specific quantification provided in the guideline. As such, users are going to assess a portal meeting POG's reader attraction criteria somewhat subjectively. North America1000 09:33, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
ce?
"Some wikipedian user pages tell their life story or reveal all sorts of interesting details about themselves, whilst others define their interests and values. I want do neither, so a few boxes to the right is all you get."
vs.
"Some wikipedian user pages tell their life story or reveal all sorts of interesting details about themselves, whilst others define their interests and values. I want to do neither, so a few boxes to the right is all you get.?
If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. UnitedStatesian (talk) 13:42, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
When I was in Rome, the priest who was our tour group leader said that he had been told when he was in the seminary that if you wrote Istanbul as the name of the city, you would get an F on the paper. That isn't why the portal gets an F, but it does. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:33, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Robert, I am with the priest. I always preferred Constantinople as a name. It sounds much more exotic. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 10:34, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. And that sort of turns around the priest's reason, which is that Istanbul is a Muslim place name and Constantinople is the Christian place name for the city. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:34, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
With regard to the portal, I would have liked to find some reason to ask what continent the city is in. If it is in Asia, Delete. If it is in Europe, Delete. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:34, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Robert McClenon, I am fascinated by the idea of alternative geographies, in which a person's religion determines the placename. We have some of that here in Ireland, with "stroke city" as the neutral term for Derry/Londonderry/Doire, but that's only start. If we added in extra names for use by each of Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Shinto, Bahais, Sikhs, Jews, Wiccans, Pastafarains, Rastafarians, etc, then we'd have hilariously huge road signs.
In my youth, I used to write software which asked questions like that. I did it as a kinda harmless fake virus, which posed a bundle of questions to the user, and the regardless of the answer, pretend to destroy the computer. It was set up to work only the first boot of the day, when the user would not be at their most alert, and then be unable to replicate the show. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 00:54, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that city on the island of Ireland (to avoid naming a colony) has two Catholic names, since we can assume that it is mostly Catholic nationalists who speak Gaelic, and a Protestant name. The city that is sometimes in Turkey has a Christian name, a Muslim name, and a Greek pagan name, Byzantium. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:09, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. UnitedStatesian (talk) 06:16, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No. That discussion needs some follow-up anyway - there were a few categories that didn't fit the naming convention which I left as-is. MER-C 13:10, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Was not involved in the CFD discussion, fully agree with creating the television tree. Should the title be episodes vs. shows though? Often there are many different screenwriters for individual episodes of a series.--☾Loriendrew☽☏(ring-ring) 01:06, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like you and I are both swimming upstream against the current of nominations, mostly good, being created by Mark S and NH12. I see that occasionally you refer to me, concurring with my analysis, for something I did several days ago. It is hard to keep up with them both busy, and you still at work also. And, as I noted, I feel like I am swimming upstream with three good extremities and one in a brace. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:27, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
@Indeed, @Robert McClenon.[reply]
The portals nominated by @Mark Schierbecker are nearly all well-chosen (tho I have some about with a few), but the rapidity with which Mark is making scanty nominations leaves a lot of work for others to do in writing up the research. It would be more helpful if Mark made fewer nominations, but accompanied them with more explanations of his research. The current practice carries a significant risk that some well-justified MFDs may fail simply because the facts have not been set out.
I have long list of portals which I think should be brought to MFD, but I launch the MFDs only in drabs and drabs because writing up the research takes time ... and much of my available time is taken up filling in the gaps in over-hasty nominations. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 22:37, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. I have a long list also, because I have a list of 631 portals that I have information about, and some of them need deleting, but, again, I will only nominate them when I have time to write them, and I also think that I am filling in the gaps on some hasty nominations. We don't have Legacypac making good and bad nominations any more, and UnitedStatesian seems to have changed his focus. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:05, 20 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Robert McClenon, it has been interesting to watch the changes in personnel in the 6 months of portal cleanup. Legacypac was highly energetic, and did a lot of good work, but his inability to recognise and correct errors was a real problem which drained time and psychic energy. I wish he could have been persuaded to be more conscientious, but my efforts in that respect were a complete failure. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 01:16, 20 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This testbed category was not my testbed, and I can't recall who was using it for what.
I have quickly scanned the backlinks at Special:WhatLinksHere/Category:X1, and there seems to have been lots of discussion of it in many places, but I haven't dug deep enough to identify whether it is currently in use.
AFAICR, it is one of a series of Xn categories used for whatever tests editors want to perform. There is a recurring need for such testbeds, so I can't see any benefit to deleting it. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 13:21, 20 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. UnitedStatesian (talk) 06:08, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Toronto is not a province
Hi BHG - in as nice a tone as I can manage in text - Toronto is a city, not a province. It's the capital of Ontario - Portal:Ontario exists and would be a more preferable replacement to Portal:Toronto......PKT(alk) 01:34, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This was a big cleanup after a whole load of Canadian portal deletions on the 22nd. I wanted to replace portals with the most specific alternative where possible, which for the provinces is Portal:Canada.
In hindsight, you're right about Toronto. When I was assembling this AWB run, I added the two city portals (Portal:Toronto and Portal:Vancouver) to the list of provinces, because the same regex would handle them all, but neglected to change the edit summary. And I overlooked that Portal:Ontario had not been deleted.
It's done now. Al the direct links to Portal:Toronto have been replaced. Tomorrow, I will look into adding Ontario to the Toronto pages. Portal:Ontario is one of the few Canadian portals not up for deletion, and I dunno if it will stay, but in case it does stay, I'll try to reinstate the links.--BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 01:49, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for all the work you've done to clean up those defunct portal links! .....PKT(alk) 11:07, 24 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Another portal for MfD.
Hi, Portal:Santiago was created last year by The Transhumaist (TTH). I think it's automated, but am not completely sure how to tell. It and its redirect only had 3 views per day from June 1 - July 30 2019. TTH last edited the portal in February, so it is without a maintainer. Could BHG or Robert McClenon please nominate this one for deletion? Thank you. Newshunter12 (talk) 18:30, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Newshunter12: Portal:Santiago uses an embedded list of topics. So it is curated, but without the faff of sub-pages.
So some analysis is needed to check whether this is another clone, or a genuinely-created portals. I find that this is most easily by done by using WP:AWB's list comparison tool. I will check this Portal:Santiago later. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 19:42, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It has 61 pages included. I don't know whether he copied them from one or more navboxes or categories or lists. On its face, it looks like a mega-navbox portal. The only obvious problem with it is that it averages 3 daily pageviews. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:20, 25 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And another already!
BrownHairedGirl and Robert McClenon, I recommend Portal:Buenos Aires be brought to MfD as well. It has essentially been abandoned for nearly eight years (the creator is still active on Wikipedia, but last touched it in December 2012, save for a picture they added in the Things to Do section in 2016). Seven articles were last updated in 2011 and three in 2012. Of the 11 district or barrio articles, 10 were updated in 2011 and one in 2012. The DYK section was all created and last touched in November 2012, and I suspect they are not real DYK's, but don't know how to check that. The picture gallery last touched at creation in 2011. The things to do section last touched at creation in 2011, save for a cosmetic picture swap in 2016.
The wikiproject section untouched since creation in 2011, and while the associated WikiProject Argentina is semi-active (people still post there, but no actual discussions take place), it appears to have never had anything to do with this portal. Interestingly, the portal creator Bleff is listed as a member of this project, but has never once edited the project main page or talk page. The city map section last edited in 2011. The page view count is abysmal. From June 1 - July 30 2019, there was an average of 9 visits per day to the main page. The long term trend is even more stark, given that per day rate in July and August 2015 was 25 per day. Newshunter12 (talk) 19:33, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It just occurred to me that because this portal is so outdated, it doesn't have a bio or mention at all one of Buenos Aires's most famous native sons and longtime residents: Pope Francis. That seems worth mentioning at MfD, does it not?! Newshunter12 (talk) 21:12, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Newshunter12, It is very much worth mentioning. That omission shouts neglect.
And I'll mention something else too. You have basically written the nomination already. So why not nominate the portal in your own name? If I picked up and ran with it, I'd feel like a plagiarist. I'd be happy to review a draft if you like.
The only missing is the DYKs. Here's how I check them:
Go to the talk page of the linked article. Since about 2011, a bot has taken each successful DYK nomination and left a note on the talk page (see e.g. one of mine at Talk:James Balfour (died 1845))
Thank you for the encouragement and help, BrownHairedGirl! The DYK's are actually all real, but obviously still just acting as WP:TRIVIA. Here is my MfD draft I would love for you to review it.
Abandoned portal on a narrow topic. WP:POG requires that portals should be about "broad subject areas, which are likely to attract large numbers of interested readers and portal maintainers." This portal has neither large numbers of readers and no maintainers. The portal has essentially been abandoned for nearly seven years (the creator is still active on Wikipedia, but last touched it in December 2012, save for a picture they added in the Things to Do section in 2016). The page view count is abysmal. From June 1 - July 30 2019, there was an average of 9 views per day to the main page (while the head article Buenos Aires had 2,369 views per day in the same period.) There is a stark long term downward trend in views - the July and August 2015 portal rate was 25 views per day.
Of the 10 articles, seven were last updated in 2011 and three in 2012. Of the 11 district or barrio articles, 10 were updated in 2011 and one in 2012. The DYK section was all created and last touched in November 2012, while WP:DYK states: "The DYK section showcases new or expanded articles that are selected through an informal review process. It is not a general trivia section" ... but this seven-year-old set has nothing to do with new or expanded articles, so its only effect is as a WP:TRIVIA section. The picture gallery was last touched at creation in 2011, as was the Things to Do section, save for a cosmetic picture swap in 2016. The city map section was last updated in 2011.
WP:POG also guides that "the portal should be associated with a WikiProject (or have editors with sufficient interest) to help ensure a supply of new material for the portal and maintain the portal.". However, WikiProject Argentina is only semi-active (people still post there, but no actual discussions take place), and it appears to have never had anything to do with this portal. While the portal creator, Bleff, is listed as a member of the project, they have never once edited the project main page or talk page, and there has never been any mention of this portal on the talk page and it is not currently mentioned on the main page.
Furthermore, this abandoned junk portal has no bio or any mention at all of one of Buenos Aires's most famous native sons and longtime residents: Pope Francis. His ascendency to the Papacy in 2013 and reign as Pope has garnered enormous coverage of his life and works, many decades of which happened in Buenos Aires, where he was born and worked his way up the church hierarchy. The complete lack of any mention demonstrates the abject abandonment and decay of this portal into misleading irrelevance. It's time to just Delete it. Newshunter12 (talk) 22:55, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
All bases covered. Throughly researched, well-explained, clearly-written, and solidly based on the guidelines. You're a natural at this!
I'll mark it as 19 points out of ten. The only reason I don't give it twenty out of ten is that I don't see a link to Special:PrefixIndex/Portal:Buenos Aires, which is handy to include because it helps other editors verify your research.
It was helpful. The nom is done and dusted. I had to revise it though as I didn't realize the tabs at the top of the project page were to pages with separate edit histories, so the creator has posted on that project and the portal does have an obscure mention on the very bottom of the project portal page. Thanks for your encouragement! Newshunter12 (talk) 23:58, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oops. I was right the first time. That "project" page is just Portal:Argentina, which has been built to appear as part of the wiki-project's suite of pages itself. I'm not used to working around such dynamic project headers, which is why I got confused. I'm going to stop digging now and quietly exit the back door! Newshunter12 (talk) 00:21, 24 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Don't worry about it, @Newshunter12. There are so many bizarre structures in portalspace that it's horribly easy to get confused. After 6 months at this, I am still encountering oddities that trip me up. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 00:33, 24 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I noticed these categories recently emptied because of portal MfD's still exist: 1 (with three sub-cats), and 2. As an admin, could you delete them? The Vancouver cats have already been nominated for speedy deletion by someone else. Thank you for any help you can provide. Newshunter12 (talk) 12:58, 25 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, @Newshunter12. I delete such categories whenever I spot them, but had missed the Vancouver cats. Now deleted. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 21:59, 25 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Can you elucidate me on the line-break topic? I only use <br /> becaus the other ruins the colour scheme in editing mode for me, however, I see no such reasoning in the guideline which even seems to prefer it in list-like surroundings. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:41, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:LINEBREAK, which says unclosed BR is "better avoided for the time being", because of the negative impact on some syntax highlighters. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 21:33, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Now I see it, but that passage really should be reworded for clarity. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:37, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe, @Gerda. Seems clear enough to me, but maybe I'm too close to the issue. Maybe might you wanna try a rewording? --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 22:02, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think it shouldn't say "The <br /> or <br> tags are used for a single forced line break." as if they are of equal value, and only a while later say that one of them should not be used. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:05, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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A tag has been placed on 1970s in Foo, requesting that it be deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under two or more of the criteria for speedy deletion, by which pages can be deleted at any time, without discussion. If the page meets any of these strictly-defined criteria, then it may soon be deleted by an administrator. The reasons it has been tagged are:
It is an article with no content whatsoever, or whose contents consist only of external links, a "See also" section, book references, category tags, template tags, interwiki links, a rephrasing of the title, or an attempt to contact the subject of the article. (See section A3 of the criteria for speedy deletion.) Wikipedia has standards for the minimum necessary information to be included in short articles; you can see these at Wikipedia:Stub. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content.
If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator, or if you have already done so, you can place a request here. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 13:57, 24 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, @User:WilliamJE, go easy. It's a test page created about 3 seconds ago, and it's very obviously a test page. I'll delete it when I am done with it in an hour or so ... and in the meantime, please stop wasting time with splatting speedy notices around. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 14:00, 24 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Up 3 seconds ago? Hardly it was on your 2nd page of 100 edits when I CSD it. 34 minutes later. A1 and A3 apply....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 14:04, 24 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
OMG!!!!!!!!!!! 34 Minutes!!!!! Wow!!!!
Call the cops and send me to Gitmo.
Surely have you have something better to do with your limited time on this wee earth than to scan my hundreds of AWB edits looking for something to slap a speedy tag on? --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 14:08, 24 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Remove your edit summary from the page above or take you to ANI. I can point out multiple instances of this behavior and it is uncalled for. Per WP:CIVIL....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 14:28, 24 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Your edit summary is a personal attack. Remove it or I start an ANI thread....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 14:31, 24 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Dawnseeker2000: She attacks me in a edit summary but the gutless sycophants around here don't have guts to put an end to this bullshit. This woman couldn't more wrong or despicable. She thinks I am traumatized by her stupidity. Traumatized is watching my newborn son die 14.5 hours[36] after his birth and after my wife spent two months in the hospital in order to save him. That's trauma. What we have here is a disgusting piece of garbage. The woman should know better than write the shit she did and she couldn't have picked the worst target for her hateful venom....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 00:02, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Give it a rest, William. You made a misjudgement, and doubled down on your error, and then went on an unsuccessful grievance hunt, alleging a back catalogue of alleged "personal attacks" whch were not personal attacks.
I am very sorry to hear of the death of your son. I have friends who have suffered similar loss, and their grief is immense. My heart goes out to you. But I am sure you can do much better by yourself and your family than to try the shameful stunt of misusing your son's memory as a cheap stick to beat me with. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 00:31, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Insult at Olympic Games
I got as close as I have in years to a personal attack at the Olympic Games Portal MFD in response to Hecato telling you that your post was too long. I didn't say it about the editor, only about their comment. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:06, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I saw that, @Robert. Thanks for your support. I think you were well short of a personal attack.
It's a messy but interesting MFD, of a type which will become more common: broad topic, abandoned portal, WikiProject not interested, and a portal fan with no evident topic expertise who don't see that as an impediment to being a "maintainer". --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 23:12, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I figured it wasn't a personal attack because I didn't say that the editor was s******. I said that their post was s******. I also didn't use profanity, because that is rude, and should only be used when one is angry, because it sends the message that you are angry. The excessive use of profanity is for the uneducated who don't know alternative foreign ways to say that sort of stuff. Robert McClenon (talk) 12:56, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
DYKs
I've revised the canned text. It now says that portal DYKs are fun, and are a way around the rule against general trivia,and are not a reason to keep a portal. Of course, the real reason for the DYKs is that general trivia are fun, but the real reason for portals is that creating portals is fun. (Maintaining them is work.) Robert McClenon (talk) 01:09, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The DYKs seem to me to be another aspect of what I am coming to think is the core problem of the wikipolitics of portals: that portals are not just fun to create, but also easy. Just as it's easier to make new reader-facing page by lashing a few content forks into a portal skeleton than by writing a referenced article, it's also much easier for an editor to add unsourced assertions to a portal than to any other reader-facing Wikipedia pages. The complex structure of portals combines with trivially-low viewing rates to mean than it's extremely unlikely for this unsourced trivia to to be subject to the WP:v/WP:RS/WP:WEIGHT/WP:NPOV challenge it would face it added to any non-trivial article.
So my working theory is that the result of the above is that portals became for some editors the only space where they could work without the normal scrutiny and debate. Some of them have a track record of significant contribs elsewhere, but many do not. So the MFDing of so many portals is a double whammy for them: threatened loss of safe space/playground, and debate with which they unfamiliar or uncomfortable. My theory is that this explains (but doesn't excuse) why some of them lash out when the appear at MFD, and why so much so the discussion at the portals project is either moans or half-baked proposals to wikilawyer against deletions ... rather than find credible solutions. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 01:36, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I mostly agree, but will think about this, perhaps while I rest my injured leg. That explains that some of the portal advocates really were using portals as a sort of a game. I have an engineering toy based on portals also, but it is a database with 668 records, and it isn't on the Wikipedia servers but on my C: drive (of my laptop, until I go home). Portals are a game, and DYKs are informative in that they are a particularly clear example of why portals are just for fun. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:10, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
August 2019
Humorous1234 has given you a puppy!Puppies promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Your puppy must be fed three times a day and will be your faithful companion forever! Spread the WikiLove by giving someone else a puppy, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend.Spread the goodness of puppies by adding {{subst:Puppy}} to someone's talk page with a friendly message.
Hello. This is a message to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions, such as the edit you made to Canadian Classique, did not appear constructive and has been reverted. Please take some time to familiarise yourself with our policies and guidelines. You can find information about these at our welcome page which also provides further information about contributing constructively to this encyclopedia. If you only meant to make test edits, please use the sandbox for that. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you may leave a message on my talk page. You're suggesting that a how-to guide is authoritative? Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:32, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's not going to help, as far as I am aware, no matter what you say to Walter, he will always be the one who thinks he is correct. Just going through his editing history, he removes what he doesn't like when anyone tries to argue with him on his talk page, probably 90% of it is never archived, I call it, "trying to hide his transgressions". He has wages edit wars on and off for years with lots of different people. He has been blocked multiple times, the longest a week! Clearly it's not working. I am surprised no one has taken him to wiki-court for a longer suspension!! Govvy (talk) 13:37, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Walter's behaviour has been very odd, and it's useful to know that it's just not me catching him on a bad day.
Looks like I will have to take this to ANI, which is something I prefer to avoid. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 13:46, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yuck. WG has one of the longest block logs I have seen of an editor who is "only" an edit-warrior and not a flamer or POV-pusher. Robert McClenon (talk) 12:08, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Could you speedily delete the selected X of deleted portal templates? There's no need to list them at TfD, they're usually deleted by G8 anyway. Thanks! --Trialpears (talk) 04:23, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Trialpears, yes I think I could. In theory. Should have thought of that.
I haven't the energy to undo those TFDs, but I have WP:G8 speedied the other similar templates I have found since then. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 21:30, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The closes that were done last night, mostly by ScottyWong, were some of the most contentious since we started examining and tagging crud portals several months ago. The scope of the deletion nominations was the largest we have ever seen, if one stubbornly thinks that "broad topic area" is measured in square kilometers, including Asia, Antarctica, Jupiter, Mars, and Moon. It appears that there was no Consensus to Keep any portals. That is good. If I recall correctly, there was No Consensus on Portal:Solar system (which is not normally measured in square kilometers, but is actually nearly flat), Portal:Asia, Portal:Olympic Games, and Portal:Companies. I think that it will be useful to keep an eye on those portals and see whether there is any real maintenance, and whether there are actual maintenance plans. The portal platoon will no doubt say that if we are interested, we should be helping to maintain them, but I think that some of us think they don't know the difference between drive-by editing and maintenance. Some of the questions that I think should be asked as we watch those portals include:
Are political events in Asia being reflected in the portal?
Are preparations for the 2020 Olympic Games being reflected in the portal?
Are the companies being rotated? Are their metrics being updated to reflect annual and quarterly reporting?
Is robotic space exploration of the Solar system being reflected in the portal?
Is there at least being discussion of a major redesign of any portals, especially of Portal:Companies, which could be semi-automated to use categories?
Is there any minor redesign of any portals, such as the use of categories to select countries or places in Asia?
Hi Robert. I am busy now cleaning up backlinks after the flurry of deletions of Canada portals, but I will reply substantively later. Without having seen any of the closes you mention, I will just say that after watching Scottywong's closes for a while, they have all struck me of being good closes, where there has actually been a proper weighing of consensus against policy, and not just a head count. That doesn't necessarily mean that I will agree with Scotty's decisions in these cases ... but it does mean that I will review them as the actions of a closer with a good track record. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 14:02, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't disagree with the closes. I don't disagree with any recent closes. Those are my thoughts in particular about the No Consensus closes. It will be interesting whether the portalistas disagree with any of the contentious Deletes enough to take them to Deletion Review. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:24, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I am far from persuaded that the editor concerned has a good grasp of either POG or the structure of the portal ... and Scottywong's reasoning looks robust, as usual.
If they still want to open a DRV, then that's their right. I don't think it will get any traction, and it might be useful for some of the more disgruntled portal enthusiasts to see what DRV makes of their severe and persistent lack of gruntlement at the repeated consensus that abandonment is grounds to delete a portal.
For the record, I also endorse Scotty's close of WP:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Solar System. It's not the outcome I would have liked, and personally, I would have been more likely to close it as "delete", but Scotty's close has very persuasive reasoning, so there's no doubt in my mind that it's a good close, based on sound reasoning. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 17:55, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi TenPoundHammer, yes it would. Should have thought of that.
I haven't the energy to undo that one, but I have WP:G8 speedied the others I have found since then. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 21:28, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Copyright violation
I was told to edit a new page that I created and remove copyright violations, I didn't know about the copyright violations, until today.
I've read about it and I'll take it very serious in the creation of my future pages.
In the meantime, I've edited the page and removed all the copyright violations and I will be very happy, if it'll be re-review.
By doing so, you'll ensure that I'm on the right track, so that I don't violate copyrights ever again. Thanks!
Sorry, I don't have time to review this at the moment.
However, I see that the copyvio was identified by User:Onel5969, and that you have already asked Onel5969 to review your changes.[37], so I will leave it Onel's hands.
Thanks for deleting the invalid Death Portal. I did have questions about some of the changes contained within your edit at the List.
You changed <br> to <br /> - I was wondering why since when Advanced editing is ennabled <b> is what the system gives the editor.
You changed <ref group = "Note"> (with a space before the text of the Note) to <ref group = "Note">(with no space before the text of the Note). When I put a Note together I put a space between the Note-coding and beginning of the actual text to make it easier for editors to find the text if they wish to change it.
Thanks for your time - I just like to know the "why" of things. Shearonink (talk) 16:23, 29 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The spacing change to <ref group = "Note"> is part of AWB's WP:GENFIXes. These are minor fixes which would be to trivial to justify as the only purpose an edit, but which are a handy small bonus if done as a part of another edit. They come as a package, and reflect consensus on such matter .
<br> to <br /> is per WP:LINEBREAK. Either form works fine when the page is rendered, so as a general rule the simpler unclosed tag is mildly preferable ... but since it breaks some syntax highlighters, adding the slash is an easy fix when AWB is running, which makes editing easier for those who use syntax highlighting. It's my own addition, and not part of WP:GENFIX.
I created a page 6 weeks ago. It was rejected a number of times, but was since updated a bunch of times, most recently by a senior editor and is now good to go. It's just awaiting someone to review it. I went to the Admin List to ask someone to take a peek and after scrolling through the #, A and most of the B, you piqued my interest. Not just because you're a mammal or mensa eligible, but because you won't stab me when I sleep :) MaskedSinger (talk) 14:47, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi User:BrownHairedGirl. I am writing to you in light of three pending GA nominations made by me. It has been around a fortnight since I nominated the articles on the Gateway of India and the Human Immunodeficiency Virus and Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (Prevention and Control) Act, 2017 for GA. Today I also nominated the Transgender Persons (Protection of Rights) Bill, 2019 article for GA (a fact from this article is currently on the main page DYK section). I had written about the first two pending GA nominations to another admin, a week or so earlier. They suggested me to reach out to others. You are the first I have reached out to since. I would be very thankful if you could help me by reviewing all or either of these three articles. I would be looking forward to hear from you. --Tamravidhir (talk) 07:35, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Help with merging categories
Hello there. I'm not native to the English Wikipedia and its rules, and I saw you deal with such categories a lot so I hope you can help me. I'm recently dealing a lot with Wikidata on items relating to bilateral relations, and I came across with a duplicated category: Category:France–Republic of the Congo relations and Category:Republic of the Congo–France relations. Can you please merge them properly? Mbkv717 (talk) 20:35, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It does :-). Thank you very much! Mbkv717 (talk) 06:12, 2 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome. I know those categories well ('cos I created most of them), so it was an easy fix for me. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 06:14, 2 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. LizRead!Talk! 20:48, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
MfD glitch?
Hi BHG, there seems to be a glitch happening at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion. The three MfD's that have been posted in the edit history that should appear under September 2 have not appeared on the list. In this edit, the bot took away the September 2 tag. Can you please fix this issue? Thank you. There was some vandalism earlier which I was able to partially revert (the bot had already archived some of it), which might have played a factor in the glitch, but I don't know. Newshunter12 (talk) 06:58, 2 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for removing the IP vandalism. I'm not sure whether any residue of that was a factor in the bot's next edit[39] which moved Sept 2 after Sept 1 ... or whether the relisting[40] of Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:Charlie Hargrett caused the glitch.
So I have moved Sept 2 back to the top[41], and we'll have to wait and see whether the bot's next edit sticks with that.
If it recurs, we will need to raise it at User talk:Legobot. Unfortunately the bot runs old and cranky legacy code which is intolerant of minor variations in timestamps, and needs a complete rewrite which nobody has the energy to undertake. So sometimes a timestamp needs tweaking just to satisfy the bot. (Something similar happened a few months ago, and I blocked the bot, which caused a bit of a row. I don't wanna do that again.)
I've seen these date glitches before. I saw this one as two dates out of order,and now it has been corrected. I hadn't attributed it to being a complication of vandalism. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:43, 2 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Robert, my fix[42] remains the latest edit on the main MFD page. We won't know whether it sticks until LegoBot does its next edit. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 17:46, 2 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Still running. The problem does seem to be that it is using old cranky legacy code, some of which stays around until somebody decides that it is the end of the world, or until somebody decides that that particular bot should be replaced by a newer bot so that the old bot can be sent to the Old Bot Museum. I have stories, but they can wait. Robert McClenon (talk) 13:01, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Portalistas
I didn't agree not to refer to portalistas, and I have done it again, and I will whenever I think it is in order, although I will alternate it with portal platoon. In any case, my point is that tagging with the update template doesn't do anything. If a portal has rats, it should be torn down, and if tag it to be torn down, at least someone may wave a dead rat. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:43, 2 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Question about admin mentorship
Hi BrownHairedGirl, I don't believe we've interacted directly, but we've edited in many of the same circles. I appreciate your editing style (I do think it's a style), and was wondering if you'd have any interest in helping me through the RfA process. Ergo Sum 22:29, 2 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've seen your name around, and have struck me as a sane and thoughtful person. I haven't looked beyond that, but my initial reaction to the idea of you as admin is favourable. That might change in either direction if I did more scrutiny.
Anyway, my first thought when someone contemplates RFA is to suggest that they lie down in darkened room and hope that the urge passes. RFA can be benign (e.g. for Fayenatic london), but it can also be a hybrid between round-the-clock interrogation for a week, and a prolonged hazing exercise. Are you sure you are willing to risk the latter?
If you are keen to go ahead, the prime requirement is not to have too many sworn enemies still around. A quick scan of WP:RFAY shows that 20 no votes puts a candidate in trouble, and 60 would sink nearly any RFA. This is an unfortunate design flaw, because it means that a sustained disagreement with a few clusters of aggrieved idiots or POV-pushers can sink you, whereas walking away from their disruption boosts your chances of passing an RFA. That creates a perverse incentive, but there it is. So you should reflect (not on-Wiki) about how you stand in that respect.
The next issue is content creation. That's ultimately what this is all about, and if you have a decent track record of content creation, it reassures wavering editors that you are here for the right reasons. Lack of of content creation damages an otherwise good RFA, and will sink a weak one.
Then you need versatility. A few one-trick ponies make it through, but in general RFAs succeed when the candidate is well-rounded and some experience in a range of areas, with a broad record of good judgement. I don't mean all aspects of en.wp, but some wide subset is good. Perfect judgement is not required, but a demonstrable ability to learn from errors is very important.
Finally, whenever you do it, make sure that it's at a point when you re in a good frame of mind, felling unpressured and with plenty of time to respond calmly to issues that arise. When someone asks about the X incident, it's vital to be able to reply calmly and with some detachment, explaining what you think you got right and what you learnt from any errors.
If that framework makes any sense to you, I'd be happy to help. I may not have much time, but am happy to throw out a few thoughts. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs)
Thanks for the substantial response. This is something I've been mulling over for some time. While I'm somewhat wary of the RfA process, as I've seen to go off the rails before, I think it's something I'm willing to undertake. As for any enemies, by my recollection, I've only gotten into two tiffs on the 'pedia and both were a while ago. Certainly I don't consider any other editors on here "enemies" and, I could be wrong, but I don't think any would call me one either. As for content creation, I think I've done quite a bit of that. My two biggest areas of work are creating (mostly)/expanding articles and improving templates. I have one GAN pending and would probably look to start an RfA once that clears. Would you be open to nominating me or chatting further offline (via email)? Ergo Sum 00:22, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Ergo Sum at RFA most users are looking for substantial editing experience, productive engagement with other users and a track record of involvement in admin-style areas (WP:AFD, WP:CSD, WP:RFPP, WP:AIV etc.) I had a quick look through your contributions and talk page. On the first criteria, at least 10k edits over at least 2 years with no significant gaps in editing history, with content creation a bonus is the minimum, meaning you easily meet that. On the second, I don't see any major disputes that you've been involved in, but neither do I really see any disputes, and it's probably more helpful to point to some minor dispute where you can say that it was a little stressful, but you worked it out. You're fine on the second criteria. The third is the one that will cause you the biggest problem as I don't see much involvement. At WP:AFD you've only participated in 3 and those were back in 2016. CSD I don't see. Page patrol seems also to be from 2016 in the main and I see a lot of red there, though whether that's because you marked it as deletable or not, I can't view. WP:RFPP only 5, one of which is endorsing another user.
Ultimately the third criteria is what will cause you the issue. Users will argue that you don't need the tools and some may even, ludicrous though it is, use your excellent content contribs against you suggesting you should continue to focus on that. On all this I would definitely say that some track record, even with the odd mistake, would go down far better than no track record. Users will worry that you're unfamiliar with deletion criteria and will make mistakes due to lack of experience. My gut tells me you could pass, but you'd have much more chance if you spent some months working in those areas to build up a track record. Valenciano (talk) 12:32, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Ergo Sum: I endorse the suggestion to participate at AfD, and any other admin-related areas that you may find interesting. You might try your hand at WP:Non-admin closure. Also, do read up on key WP policies; I had not done this before I was dragged into my RFA, and had a lot of catching-up to do during the nomination; I ended up booking two days' annual leave from work because of the time that my "benign" RFA took up. Before the actual RFA, you can get a quick trial of opinion at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Optional RfA candidate poll. HTH – FayenaticLondon 02:37, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Empty categories regarding Disestablishment
Today, I was tagging dozens and dozens of these disestablishment categories as CSD C1 and wondered what was up. It seems like you changed a template a while back that has now left hundreds of these categories empty (see Wikipedia:Database reports/Empty categories for some of these). I just want to make sure that this was your intent before I tag any more. I don't want to have to go back and untag them all if they end up being back in use in a few days. Thanks! LizRead!Talk! 03:50, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I could easily do a quick AWB run to remove your CSD tags. Would you like me to do that? -BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 04:11, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry to just be seeing this now but I've been off-line (apartment-hunting, argh). Sure, if you know a quicker way to undo this than manually, go for it! Many thanks! LizRead!Talk! 22:18, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Template:WikiProject Czechoslovak Socialist Republic, which you created, serves to call two other templates: those for the Czech Republic and Slovakia. Had this been executed within, say Talk:Markéta Luskačová, it would have been beneficial (ML was from Bohemia and is I think now based in the Czech Republic but did notable work in Slovakia). But I've a hunch that it's wrong more often than it's right: in Talk:Libuše Jarcovjáková, it added a Slovak connection that doesn't seem to have existed. I'm sure that the template was well intentioned; however, WikiProject Czechoslovak Socialist Republic doesn't exist; might it be better if the template didn't either? -- Hoary (talk) 06:55, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Hoary, I created it as part of a series to allow big AWB runs to do WikiProject tagging by country name. If the template didn't exist, I'd have had to skip tagging such pages.
If it ends up tagging some pages with a superfluous project, that's better than not tagging them with any of the projects. In this case,the editor who used it might have been better to use another template. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 07:03, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia page write up & edits
Greetings. I’d like to get more information on how to render your services for creating. Wikipedia page as well as making some edits / corrections to existing pages. Thanks. Firstclass1101@hotmail.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:8D80:607:99A6:5936:3455:2D71:3CD5 (talk) 11:20, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, no prob. My fees are €1 million per article, payable directly to the Wikimedia Foundation.
Payment in advance, and no refunds if the topic is ineligible.
Lemme know when the payments have been made, and which articles you want created. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 19:46, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Tank you very much
Tank you very much
For the Tank portal updates. Also because I couldn't resist the terrible pun. creffett (talk) 19:13, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Newshunter12 (talk) 05:11, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
New York portal
I'm really really uncomfortable getting in the middle of this. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 04:13, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.--Vermont (talk) 20:13, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
Hello. This is a message to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions, such as the edit you made to Canadian Classique, did not appear constructive and has been reverted. Please take some time to familiarise yourself with our policies and guidelines. You can find information about these at our welcome page which also provides further information about contributing constructively to this encyclopedia. If you only meant to make test edits, please use the sandbox for that. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you may leave a message on my talk page. You're suggesting that a how-to guide is authoritative? Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:32, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
![[19]](https://s.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/midas/798d597831946830514031418f69274d/205389961/Huffpo_Poblacion2.png){kind=link}
