Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women in Red

Woman of the day: a new one each day from our women's biographies

User script to detect unreliable sources

Main page: User:Headbomb/unreliable

I have (with the help of others) made a small user script to detect and highlight various links to unreliable sources and predatory journals. Some of you may already be familiar with it, given it is currently the 39th most imported script on Wikipedia. The idea is that it takes something like

• John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14. (John Smith "[https://www.deprecated.com/article Article of things]" ''Deprecated.com''. Accessed 2020-02-14.)

and turns it into something like

• John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14.

It will work on a variety of links, including those from {{cite web}}, {{cite journal}} and {{doi}}.

The script is mostly based on WP:RSPSOURCES, WP:NPPSG and WP:CITEWATCH and a good dose of common sense. I'm always expanding coverage and tweaking the script's logic, so general feedback and suggestions to expand coverage to other unreliable sources are always welcomed.

Do note that this is not a script to be mindlessly used, and several caveats apply. Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable.

- Headbomb {t · c · p · b}

This is a one time notice and can't be unsubscribed from. Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:02, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! User:Headbomb/unreliable is great. For those interested in this kind of tool, I also recommend giving a try to User:Novem Linguae/Scripts/CiteHighlighter. MarioGom (talk) 00:46, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

If you decide to use Novem Linguae's script, I would advise against trusting its green ratings. The NYT, for example, might be generally reliable. But publishing an op ed in the NYT doesn't make that article reliable. Nor would it be OK to source medical information to it per WP:MEDRS. Likewise, many sources will have PMIDs/DOIs (green), but are actually published in predatory/quack journals, which should be flagged in red. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 02:25, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

May Women in Red events

Women in Red May 2022, Vol 8, Issue 5, Nos 214, 217, 227, 229, 230 Online events: New: Women in the Ancient World | British Overseas Territories Contest (Apr/May/Jun): Translation contest (second month) Continuing: Climate (year-long initiative) | #1day1woman See also: Wikimedia District of Columbia: 100 DC Women contest The Wikipedia Library: #1Lib1Ref Other ways to participate: Join the conversations on our talkpage. Help us plan future events. Follow us on social media: Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest | Twitter

--Megalibrarygirl (talk) 16:51, 30 April 2022 (UTC) via MassMessaging

• @Megalibrarygirl: I don't seem to have had a user talk page message about this, this month? Have I fallen off a list, or did it not get sent out, I wonder? PamD 07:20, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
  • For what it's worth @Megalibrarygirl and PamD: I didn't get a notice on my page either. SusunW (talk) 18:38, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
    • Maybe the delivery bot hasn't finished running? Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.7% of all FPs} 19:07, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
      • @Megalibrarygirl, PamD, and SusunW:: I also did not receive a notice - just another data point for consideration. --Ser Amantio di Nicolao^{Che dicono a Signa?}_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 20:46, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
        • Looks like it wasn't sent out to the last batch, Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Outreach/O-Z. DanCherek (talk) 20:51, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

          I'm really sorry, PamD, SusunW! I don't know what happened, because I thought I had sent it out to the last batch! Sorry this took so long to reply to. Real life keeps kicking my butt. :P Megalibrarygirl (talk) 15:51, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

          • @Megalibrarygirl: No problem, I only mentioned it in case there was a wider issue to fix. I created a couple of stubs on 1 May as usual - I wonder whether my Barum woman will be our most ancient? PamD 07:28, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

It is Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month, but that's America. We should do an Asian event soon, though. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.7% of all FPs} 15:26, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Agnes Janson image

I'm writing about the Swedish opera singer Agnes Janson and have found a suitable image in the journal Idun here. Is anyone able to extract the image and add it to Commons? Perhaps Adam Cuerden?--Ipigott (talk) 11:11, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Can you read the text in the lower left of the image? Fors____? It's important to work out credit. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.8% of all FPs} 15:12, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Adam Cuerden, it could be Forssell, but sv:Christian Forssell died in 1852, so perhaps sv:Gabriel Forssell. TSventon (talk) 15:45, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Better, sv:Gunnar Forssell (konstnär) did work for Idun, see commons:File:Alice_Bonthron_Idun_1891,_nr_18.jpg. TSventon (talk) 16:02, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Looks like Forssell to me. Compare with this one which reads G. Forssell.--Ipigott (talk) 19:25, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Ipigott, Hi all, Can you help me for tagging the correct liscense regarding this image Agnes Janson? Fade258 (talk) 02:41, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Fade258: Looks to me as if the nearest thing to an author is Draycott rather than the signature dealer Tamino. Don't know if it's a good idea to use an image with the Tamino label on it. I've added a category.--Ipigott (talk) 07:44, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

@Ipigott:, Thank you for your response and I have an one image same to this but on that image water mark of Taminoautographs is omit. Can I upload that watermark free image with this same liscense tag? Fade258 (talk) 08:04, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Fade258: Yes, please go ahead.--Ipigott (talk) 08:24, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

@Ipigott:, Ok, Thanks for your cooperation. Please look on that image I have uploaded an image to that existing page. Have a look and if any mistake occurs then tell me. Fade258 (talk) 08:27, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

@Fade258:, the photographer seems to be John Arthur Draycott, see Commons:File:Portrait, Blanche Thompson, c. 1890 Wellcome L0037363.jpg. TSventon (talk) 09:08, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

If folks could keep an eye on ...

Talk:Rohese Giffard, where one of our few Middle Ages bios of a woman is being .. discussed. Ealdgyth (talk) 11:51, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Draft:Francisca Wieser

I have been working on this draft about Francisca Wieser, she was a noted scientific illustrator. Before this draft moves to the main space it is missing a few more sentences and RS citations elaborating on her career. For whatever reason I am struggling with completing this one, I hit a writing block. If anyone has any interest in helping out so eventually it can be moved, please feel free. Thanks, PigeonChickenFish (talk) 06:00, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Ellen Wetherald Ahrens

DC Women

Question for the hive mind:
Which is the better death date for Ellen Wetherald Ahrens, 1935 or 1938?

• 1935 is stated in Oxford Art Online and the Philadelphia Museum of Art
• 1938 is stated in Invaluable, askArt and the Nasher Museum.
• (ArtNet states 1953, but that is mostly likely a typo)

My inclination is to use 1935. Any learned opinions welcome. Thanks. WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 22:54, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

• 1939 :) - in Radiance and Symbolism in Modern Stained Glass: European and American Innovations and Aesthetic Interrelations in Material Culture p.224 - Liana De Girolami Cheney, Cambridge Scholars Publishing, 8 Feb 2016 "Ellen Wetherald Ahrens (1854-1939)"
• 1936 :))) - in The Thomas Eakins Collection p.99 - Theodor Siegl, Philadelphia Museum of Art, 1978 "Ellen Wetherald Ahrens (1859-1936)"
• 1938 - in Students of Howard Pyle Files p.2 - Helen Farr Sloan Library & Archives, Delaware Art Museum "Ahrens, Ellen Wetherald, 1859-1938" --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:14, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

She clearly learned the art of resurrection and the people were forced to return her to the grave repeatedly to prevent the undead apocalypse. Silverseren^C 23:18, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Wow, she really faded into obscurity. Any suggestions on how to note all the different dates welcome. Thanks! WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 00:01, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

There are some thoughts at MOS:APPROXDATE - "Other forms of uncertainty should be expressed in words, either in article text or in a footnote". Perhaps (c.1859 - c.1938) and a footnote listing the various claims? --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:07, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Tagishsimon! I think I got it. Ellen Wetherald Ahrens Feel free to improve the way I handled the death date Best, WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 20:27, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

1937. First-class diplomacy skills, WAU :) --Tagishsimon (talk) 20:31, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Tagishsimon well, after all that brain power and research Gamaliel found the death certificate and she died on October 31, 1935. BTW check out Wikipedia:100 DC Women. There are some interesting new articles being submitted. WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 16:57, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hadley Rille Books

Can anyone locate sources for Hadley Rille Books, a small press publisher of fantasy, sf & historical fiction which explicitly attempts to promote strong female characters? I deprodded it but have failed to find much in the way of reliable significant coverage of the press to contribute to the AfD. (There are reviews of their books but I've not had much luck in persuading AfD commenters that they contribute towards the notability of a small press.) Unfortunately the article has had multiple contributions from editors with probable COI. Thanks, Espresso Addict (talk) 01:40, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of women innovators and inventors by country

This deserves serious consideration. It is one of the many lists I have created to show the place of women in various fields, compiled in part on the basis of successful additions to Wikipedia following our WiR editathons. If this one is deleted, many more could go the same way. The argument that it does no more than the relevant categories is misleading: it makes it easier for users to see how women have played an important part in an area which is traditionally associated with men. The list could of course be expanded on the basis of recent results.--Ipigott (talk) 05:39, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

I've started expanding the list by including more women who have been noted for their inventions. Over the next couple of days, I'll try to develop coverage of innovators from around the world. The assessments of the more important names from wp:Women in Business should be of assistance here (excluding film and theatrical interests). I'll also be livening it up with a number of images. If we are serious about developing interest in how women have contributed to various fields, lists like this one should be instrumental in conveying understanding. I would of course welcome suggestions on how we can further improve lists such as this as I have tending to base my developments on names, dates and summary descriptions. (I'm afraid I'm not much good at tables and find those which exist on women difficult to edit or improve.)--Ipigott (talk) 16:59, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Going offline now, but what's most needed, imo, is reliable sources discussing women inventors as a topic, which should not be hard to find!!! Given the preeminence of the GNG, most people at AfD are swayed by significant coverage type arguments. Espresso Addict (talk) 21:23, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

[Bit more with it after having my coffee now] I fear we should have contested the deletion of the other list, which has the potential to set an unhelpful precedent. Is there nonlist content on the history of women inventors, because there's clearly bags of content to write on that topic? A lead to this list that establishes it is a notable topic by multiple bombproof sources would be valuable. (And sourced leads to all the other lists might be effective in making them look less like easy pickings.) I quite like sortable lists, as they allow people to sort the information to find what they are interested in, but the weight of code can make editing large pages nearly impossible on my overstrained laptop, so I can understand the counterarguments. Espresso Addict (talk) 02:44, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

• @Ipigott: The first thing that jumped out at me, is that there is not one single reference on the entire page. It looks likely to pass as a Keep at AFD, but IMO without references, it could be put up at AFD again. Even CSD if it catches the eye of some editor who feels a need to rid Wikipedia of un-referenced content. — Maile (talk) 03:21, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

  In the light of the above and the supportive comments made at AfD I will continue to expand the lead, already improved by Espresso Addict, adding more general background supported by reliable sources.--Ipigott (talk) 05:44, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

  Now closed as keep; thanks everyone who worked on it! I do think valid criticism was raised during the debate, relating not only to this list but others in the series. The most important points seem to me to be inclusion criteria; bias towards US women (which may just reflect sources); lists must have a lead that demonstrates (via sources) that the topic is notable as a list (ie the entries are discussed as a set); sourcing issues (should such lists have sources or rely on the sources within the sub-articles). Espresso Addict (talk) 23:51, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

  Another thing that would be really nice, if someone here knows how to do it, would be a composite image for the lead, showcasing the variety of women inventors. Espresso Addict (talk) 00:07, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

  Espresso Addict It might make more sense to create a gallery where more images can be added over time. Point me to some PD images and I can start one. WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 00:27, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Women in Red Translation Contest

WiR Translation Contest 2022 logo

The Translation Contest is now in its second month. It started in April and will run through June 2022. It focuses on the translation of biographies of women from other language versions of Wikipedia. April brought 165 new translations! It would be great if the active contributors could share their experiences. For example is there a particular area or language editors have found fruitful or even particularly tricky? Do you find that the existing articles in other languages need much work to meet English Wikipedia standards? In my limited experience looking at the other language Wikipedias, English Wiki is the gold standard.

Also if anyone cares to self-identify their language skills, please do! I, myself, can only speak and read English so I particularly admire these translations. WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 17:13, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

@WomenArtistUpdates I'm loving seeing all the energy (& new pages) that the translation challenge is bringing! I only have a bit of German, and a tiny tiny bit of Russian, so usually rely on Google Translate and common sense (neither of which are reliable), but most translations I do turn out OK! In fact, translating from Arabic Wikipedia inspired me to take a course in Arabic language! My only piece of advice with translation is to watch the numbers too: I did a translation of Meri Avidzba using Google Translate sources, and nominated it for DYK, but in the translating I misunderstood the numbers and it ended up on the front page, and has gone into the annals of mistakes! See Talk:Meri Avidzba for the full discussion! Lajmmoore (talk) 14:23, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Geneaology help?

Hello all, I just started a draft for Paula F. Beaubrun was who the first woman to be appointed Attorney General of the British Virgin Islands (1972). I can't find a date of birth anywhere, nor whether she has passed away. Would someone be able to take a look? Also, I'm not sure about nationality? I couldn't find any sources that said definitely where she was from. She lived in Saint Lucia in later life, but that doesn't mean she was Saint Lucian. Thoughts (or better search-engine usage than mine) welcome, and with thanks. Lajmmoore (talk) 06:38, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Could this be her? https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/88880062/paula-f.-beaubrun Gamaliel (talk) 14:25, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Who's Who in the World lists her birth year as 1928. Gamaliel (talk) 14:29, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

That seems logical, as this says she was 45 in 1974 and while it doesn't name her father, it says he was the colonial treasurer. This shows the colonial treasurer was I. C. Beaubrun and this shows she had ties to St Lucia. SusunW (talk) 14:56, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Pinging @Guettarda: who might know good places to look for sources on people from the Caribbean. Gamaliel (talk) 15:22, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Lajmmoore more bits and bites. Appointed as AG in 1967.[1] She studied law in England[2] and apparently those studies were at Lincoln's Inn where she was admitted in 1960.[3] This might be an indicator of when she graduated, if you can find full access. SusunW (talk) 17:02, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Ancestry.com has passenger manifests for the UK, Canada and the US, which is often a good place to get approximate DOB and residence at a point in time. Odds are she'd be in there. I often rely on UF's Digital Library of the Caribbean.

@SusunW, your first link also says that she was born in St. Georges, Grenada and that her brother was "Matthew" Beaubrun. Based on the date and the description they give, that's got to be Michael Beaubrun. Assuming, though, that IC Beaubrun is their father, it does look like he was St Lucian. In 1908 he's an assistant clerk in the Audit Department in St Lucia (which would fit the c. 1889 DOB from the headstone). In 1946 he's the Controller of Imports and Exports in Trinidad (p. 200). Here he's mentioned as comptroller, in Barbados in 1950, and here he's the chair of the Central Housing and Planning Authority in St Lucia (and an OBE).

So I'd say she's probably Grenadian-born, St Lucian by heritage, and quite possibly grew up all over the Eastern Caribbean. Guettarda (talk) 17:13, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

(Ancestry.com is available through WP:TWL, btw). Guettarda (talk) 17:19, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Guettarda I can't access Ancestry and there is a wait list. Ignatius Cecil Beaubrun per the Lincoln Inn registry is definitely her father. This says he was St Lucian and his wife Clyte was Grenadian. Paula's birth record on FamilySearch says 5 Oct 1928 and mom was Clyte Eleanor Mar?in. But other records show the maternal surname was Harbin SusunW (talk) 17:35, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

There's an unsourced entry in a Beaubrun family tree on Ancestry that gives her mother's name as Clytemnestra "Clytie" Eleanor Harbin.

This arrival record for the UK in 1955 lists Paula's DOB as 5/10/1928, her occupation as bank clerk, her last permanent residence as St Lucia, with her passport issued in Trinidad. Guettarda (talk) 17:53, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

That was fun Guettarda! Collaboration at it's best. I checked the Florida collections and came up with nada. Lajmmoore you might score an obit or clippings by shooting off an e-mail to the National Archives or to the The Voice newspaper, which printed her sister's obituary. SusunW (talk) 18:16, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

@Guettarda@SusunW@Gamaliel - you're all so amazing! Thank you so much for finding the time, and going to the effort, so grateful! Lajmmoore (talk) 18:48, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

I created entries in Wikidata for Paula (Q111907955) and her father (Q111907786). TJMSmith (talk) 19:28, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

It was a lot of fun - real collaborative work is the best part of Wikipedia (and happens far too rarely). It was pretty cool too, because although I didn't know Michael Beaubrun (and didn't know Paula or their father existed) I believe my uncle was friends with him, and my parents knew him. It's cool to discover someone who I could, in theory, have met in real life, but I didn't even know existed. Guettarda (talk) 21:24, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Exactly, and a thing in the Caribbean. Though the islands are spread far apart, they are all connected, as are the people. That "Six Degrees to Kevin Bacon" thing is more like one or two degrees. I often encounter that when writing about Caribbean people. I may not know them, but I know someone who knows/knew them or I have written about someone who knew them. I love that because it truly shows us how interconnected we really are. SusunW (talk) 15:27, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shakuntala Atre

Would appreciate thoughts on this one. pburka uncovered that the subject publishes as "Shaku Atre", which seems to be being getting lost in the wash. Cheers, Espresso Addict (talk) 22:39, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Why are we examining an adjunct professor as an academic? SusunW (talk) 17:26, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Pragmatically, if we could prove that the subject were notable under WP:PROF then we don't need to meet GNG. Her notable research was, I think, probably done while at IBM, and might not have been published at all. The subject is probably most notable as an author, but I and others have failed to find book reviews. I don't think that's because they don't exist; I fear it reflects the bias of the WL databases. If Atre is considered neither as an academic nor as an author, then we need to meet the companies requirements, which are tough. I feel GNG is met, with the sources I and others have found, but other contributors to the AfD disagree. Espresso Addict (talk) 23:54, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Women who no longer edit Wikipedia

I'm one of them. I keep getting messages from all you lovely Women In Red people, and it reminds me every time that I stopped editing Wikipedia because it felt like such an aggressive masculine environment. I wondered today if there should not only be a list of women Wikipedia ought to include in terms of articles, but also a list of women Wikipedia drove away in terms of contributors. (I couldn't decide whether to add this here because it feels like whining, and then I remembered that every time I entered any kind of conversation on Wikipedia, I was mostly treated as if I was just whining, no matter what I was saying. So here it is.) BessieMaelstrom (talk) 13:54, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Hello @BessieMaelstrom, Thanks so much for sharing your experience and I am so sorry that's what you've found. I don't know enough about listing Wikipedians, but thanks for being honest. When I started editing in 2019 I found it similar to what you describe, but I do feel like I've personally noticed change over the past couple of years; that said there's still more work to do. In the meantime, sending wikilove to you! Lajmmoore (talk) 14:28, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

BessieMaelstrom walking through the world as a woman requires navigational skill to ensure one's safety. This environment is no different. I can't speak for all women, but when I began editing in 2014, I experienced the same type of aggression. I still see those behaviors from time to time. But as Lajmmoore said, I think it's improved. Perhaps it is not so much improved as 1) Women in Red was created and is a safe space, 2) building a network and relationships with other editors makes one feel safer, 3) establishing a reputation for quality and collaborative work provides a buffer, or 4) one just gets used to it. I applaud you for your honesty and am sorry we were unable to support you long enough for you to find a safe space to contribute. SusunW (talk) 15:59, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

BessieMaelstrom, is there anyway we can convince you to come back and edit? Your perspective is so valuable. I can't promise you that you won't face some of the things you did in the past but this project is extremely supportive and I think you would find your adventure to be different this time. I understand if you have hesitation and I empathize with any anxiety you may feel over it but I think so highly of your experiences in life and the impact they can have on the way we see things as you share your perspective that I think it would be a travesty not to ask. It is so crucial to a collaborative effort like Wikipedia and why the retention of good faith editors is so important. --ARoseWolf 17:06, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm definitely reminded how much more confrontational other parts of Wikipedia can be every time I come to this board and find such a welcoming and affirming environment. So add my thanks to all participants here for keeping it going, my hope that it is possible to spread that feeling of community-building more widely, and my disappointment that the aggression elsewhere has continued to drive away the women editors whom I believe we badly need. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:26, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

BessieMaelstrom You are not alone. I have several times taken some very long wikibreaks due to misogynistic behaviour on en.Wikipedia. Problems that I have encountered include the following:

• Misusing WP rules to undermine my work, e.g.
• (a) Accusing me of expressing opinion on article talk pages, when actually opinion is permissible on talkpages (just not on articles, where I don't do that).
• (b) Deciding unilaterally and without discussion that certain information in a female biography e.g. education and training, teaching art and lists of works (all cited), is "irrelevant", and that commissioned artworks are not art but "just work" (take that, Michaelangelo!) deleting it, and accusing me of edit warring if I put it right and I request discussion.
• (c) Reverting my every edit on an article which is under construction, so that I then work it up in userspace before publishing my edit - then trolls alerting other editors to the location of my userspace workup in such a way that others are being asked to watch my every step before publication (inciting stalking, surely?)
• (d) Attempting to speedy delete the article on grounds of non-notability, then when that fails, deleting or drastically minimising large fully-cited sections of an article in the hope of removing any sign of notability.
• (e) Making dismissive remarks as to the "minor" status of the still-living-and-working female subject of the article, on the talk page, where the subject of the article could theoretically read it.
• (f) Putting me on their watchlist, then tracking my every edit across en.Wikipedia, and joining in other discussions so as to contradict whatever I may be saying.
• (g) Making a great play of complaining that during the first half-hour after publishing a female biography, that I had not yet added the Wikiproject templates to the talkpage, although there is no WP rule to say that one has to do that within a timeframe. On that occasion, I was doing the what-links-here links first, and the Wikiproject templates were my next job, but they were already making accusations of incompetence 20 minutes after I had published.
• (h) When I took the matter to arbitration, I was shocked to see that not only had they brought in their friends to put me down, but a female admin, in an awkward attempt to make peace, said that they should leave off, but that I should tolerate "robust" criticism (what?) She then told me on a user talkpage that I was wrong to take it to arbitration, because the attackers all congregate there, so that there would be no help for me. The trolls saw that, took it out of context, and thereafter repeated that I "should not have taken it to arbitration". So I had to conclude from that, that WP not only has no working form of assistance for women suffering misogyny here, but that its own arbitration system is functionally counterproductive.

In respect of one of "my" decimated and minimised female biographies, The trolls subsequently prevented me from editing it by accusing me of edit-warring whenever I tried to improve it. I therefore took to emailing copies of the full, original published article to the many academic institutions, galleries and newspapers which were associated with that biography subject. They were grateful for that, because they could use my research (especially sources) in their own work, and for their own records, because the original article contained cited information which they did not all possess. Those establishments were aware that they could not have used the decimated article in that way, because the information and citations were now gone.

I now feel unable to edit those decimated articles further myself, due to the behaviour that tends to occur if I do so. The saddest effect is that once the article has become decimated and minimised, decent editors try to come in and repair some of the damage, but they usually cannot get it right, because they cannot access many of my original citations, because I tend to use archives with paywalls. Similarly, the trolls cannot see those sources either, so their edits are based on source information which they know nothing about - so both vandals and well-meaning follow-up editors have been adding information which is incorrect. Storye book (talk) 17:37, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

• Hello BessieMaelstrom. I'm sorry you had a rough time trying to contribute! There are a lot of male editors, some of whose behaviour can be... offputting -- but there are also surprisingly many women, some of whom (myself included) choose to contribute under a gender-neutral user name. The Women in Red talk page is certainly a lovely haven. I find wikibreaks are invaluable for stress relief -- I tend to work on an informal 50% on 50% off schedule, and just walk away for a month or three when things get to me. I must admit, I can't really understand the deletionist mindset; if one doesn't want rich varied content, why is one contributing to an encyclopedia!?! Espresso Addict (talk) 00:06, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
• Hi @BessieMaelstrom:, I'm sorry for what you've faced while contributing in wikipedia. Being a male editor, I'm also a member/participant of this WIR project. By addressing the problem faced by female editors over a past days, Can you (all editors present in this discussion) have some suggestions to reduce this sorts of problem? As they feel more comfortable or safe in this environment to contribute in wikipedia. Fade258 (talk) 03:12, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

  I've been mulling this question over; one thing that strikes me is that one should consider an editor's talk page as their "home", and defer (as far as policy allows) to what that editor appears to be comfortable with. Some people are happy inviting people to party on their talk page, others find strangers turning up even to make positive comments intrusive. And avoid overpinging; a lot of editors find it stressful. The thanks button is an excellent invention; it isn't insistent and doesn't invite response (thank you Foundation for that one, at least!). All of these apply independent of the genders of either participant. Espresso Addict (talk) 04:42, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

  I've pondered the question a lot too. I think in general, the anonymity of the internet allows some people to be uber-agressive and rude in a way they would not be in person. And, there are just people who edit here who by their own admission just enjoy being confrontational and telling other people what to do. A virtual platform also means that recipients of any message have no visual or audible clues to assist them in determining the tone of the message or the frame of mind of the recipent. Truly, the only real advice I can give on the subject, Fade258 is to ask yourself before you post something, "is this how I would react/say this if the person was beside me"? If we are all more aware of how our posts effect others, hopefully we try to communicate in a more respectful manner. SusunW (talk) 15:29, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

• Thank you, BessieMaelstrom, for bringing your problems to our attention. It's also useful to see how many other women editors have experienced discrimination. Whenever a contributor becomes a member of WiR, I invite them to let me know if ever they need assistance or face problems. In your case, apart from initial exchanges, I can't remember any further communications from you. If you had let me, or other members of WiR, know about the problems you were experiening, we may well have been able to help you out. Even now, we can no doubt provide support if you decide to return to active editing. Over the years we have been able to assist quite a number of editors who have experienced mistreatment and several have since become outstanding contributors. Our contacts with the Wikimedia Foundation in this connection are indeed beginning to bear fruit although it is no easy matter to overcome the unfortunate traditions on the English version of Wikipedia which have developed over the years. As for a list of women who no longer edit, it may well be useful for those who feel it is specifically because they are women they have faced insuperable problems. Aprart from women who do not hide their gender, there are many other contributors who leave as a result of unfair treatment, often as a result of unjustified blocking. We also need to take their difficulties into account. Nevertheless, my overall impression is that things are generally improving and that many of our members continue to edit without running into serious difficulties. We'll be able to do even better if we can encourage more editors to become active members of our project, and that means attracting more women editors too. I can tell you one of the most satisfying experiences you can have on Wikipedia is to help new contributors gain success.--Ipigott (talk) 06:34, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Fade258 Regarding your request for ways of dealing with misogynistic trolls etc. on WP. I can tell you what I do about it, but it doesn't always work, and it wouldn't work for everyone.
  • 1. Female username or unrevealing username? Mine is purposely unrevealing, but it doesn't always help. I create or edit all sorts of articles, including subjects which in the "old days" were normally associated with only men or only women - such as knitting and railways. This can confuse trolls who may lack confidence in their own sexuality. I created a male biography for which the only available free ID photo was an experimental camp-looking portrait taken by one of his artist friends in the early days of photography. An editor who had decorated his userpage with pictures of himself in camo gear next to army weaponry took issue with that photo. He apparently had little knowledge of the biog. subject's country of origin or artistic profession, but the troll became quite desperate to have that photo removed, and became very angry with me in the process. I got the impression that he was angry because he thought I was a gay male editor because I had used that photo, and I still wonder whether, if I had used a female username, he would have been less aggressive. That event does show, though, that it's not only women who are vulnerable here.
  • 2. When the trolling about the camp photo happened, I ran away from WP for several years. I am naturally the appeasing type, but since I came back I have tended to come out with all guns blazing when I get trolled. I try to be over-careful to do that within all WP rules, but it's probably not altogether a good idea. I know that I have at least once hurt the feelings, quite unnecessarily, of at least one of the participants in this very conversation - because I jumped to a wrong conclusion, and I over-reacted when in fact they had perfectly good intentions, and were making valuable contributions. Coming out with all guns blazing (while strictly within the rules) does work with misogynistic trolls, certainly. But I have to be very careful indeed not to lower myself into doing anything similar to what the trolls do.
  • 3. Perhaps the most valuable thing that I've learned from those experiences is how to edit more perfectly (to avoid giving them any excuse whatsoever to criticise). When I publish an article, I prepare several what-links-here links in other articles in advance, and I have ready one or two Wikiproject templates, so as to get them up and running on the article talkpage within five minutes of publication. I also make sure my biogs have a defaultsort and an authority control template. Each of those makes one less thing for trolls to shout at me for. If a troll has any criticism which is even remotely valid, I put it right immediately and thank them if possible. (I have also tried to compromise in the past, but that doesn't work: if anything, it makes them worse). You can see from this that my experiences of trolling have made me fairly paranoid as an editor, but on the other hand, my articles now have fewer imperfections that would waste the time of our good copyeditors and bot-controllers.
  • 4. Just sometimes, after I've called them out in no uncertain terms, a troll will try to compromise, and will be clearly doing their best to adjust their behaviour. I do try to be aware of their efforts and show appreciation by cooperating with what they are doing, thanking them for their edits, or whatever. This did happen recently, so the world is not so bad, all the time.
  • Please don't take any of my above points as advice. We all have to do whatever fits our own needs. But maybe there will be something there that people can adapt and use in their own way. Storye book (talk) 09:17, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

    @Storye book: The {{under construction}} template is useful as a defence against editors who might pick on imperfections in a brand new article before you have given it all the bells and whistles, as long as right from the start it has enough sourced content to assert notability. PamD 11:44, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

• Since a few people have mentioned experiencing unhelpful edits and criticism within minutes of an article being created, I'm guessing that a lot of it comes from new page patrol, which is a vital firewall against spam and the like, but definitely has some... problems in the way it communicates. If you've got a good number of articles under your belt, there's no need for your creations to go through this process, so those who haven't already might consider requesting autopatrolled. You can do that at WP:PERM/A or I'd be happy to give it to eligible members of this project directly (since I review a lot of requests at PERM/A anyway). – Joe (talk) 12:35, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
  • I would also highly recommend drafting either in your own sandbox (or in the Draft namespace). Guettarda (talk) 13:55, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

    BessieMaelstrom, I, too, am so sorry that you have had to deal with these negative experiences and that you have stopped editing as a result. I hope you've been encouraged by some of the comments in this space. Should you feel comfortable enough to return at some point, Women in Red is here for you.

    Storye book, I add {{under construction}} or {{in use}} when I create a new article and that (usually) keeps the template-slappers away. --Rosiestep (talk) 14:43, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

    @Guettarda: The one problem with starting in sandbox or draft, especially if it's someone very topical or part of a redlist from an editathon, is that you might put a lot of effort in and then find that someone else had started an article in mainspace, so you end up having to merge your work into that one. I prefer to start a solid little stub: couple or more good sources, clear assertion of notability, {{under construction}}, and then work on the incoming redirects, surname page entry, links to other wikipedias, talk page project banners, that sort of infrastructure, before coming back to expand the stub. (Or I just leave it as that solid little stub in the hopes that someone else will come and expand it from the good sources I've given!) But we all choose the editing process which suits us best. PamD 15:06, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

    @PamD: You're right, I wasn't thinking about editathons. Creating articles for editathons is really hard. Guettarda (talk) 15:46, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

• This is sad, I personally know at least two Nigerian women editors, who are facing exactly what you faced. The sad thing is I feel completely powerless to help. Hopefully, people get the message. HandsomeBoy (talk) 14:58, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Rosiestep I use {{under construction}} and {{in use}} when expanding a stub in mainspace, but when creating one of "my" articles it can take me years, and I mean years. It would not be practicable to use those templates in that circumstance, so I work it up in userspace. Often it takes time to establish notability in the manner required by WP, and that is another reason to keep it in userspace until it is ready for mainspace. Those templates would not protect a not-yet-notable just-begun article, and nor would draft-mode. I have my own way of working up an article - sometimes first collecting a large number of images in a Commons category; sometimes collecting a long list of online sources and nothing else on the article page before beginning writing up the text - that way I can be sure that everything comes from the sources and that I have included no half-remembered facts. Again, no construction template would protect that kind of startup. Also I have home responsibilities, which means I often have to drop what I'm doing halfway through a sentence, and do a quick save before leaving the article alone for a day or so while I deal with real life duties - and again no construction tag would protect that. I have also found that female biographies require more proof of notability than male biographies do, on WP. For example, trolls in my experience will work-to-rule regarding the specification that artists need a good three works in public collections before notability can be established. I have seen that happen for female artist biographies several times, but not yet for male artist biographies. Storye book (talk) 15:30, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
    • Then you obviously haven't watchlisted Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Visual arts, where you see this all the time! Come off it! Johnbod (talk) 01:34, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

      • I find this comment to exemplify some of the above discussed issues. Innisfree987 (talk) 05:51, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

      • I'm sure. And do you see any issues with:"For example, trolls in my experience will work-to-rule regarding the specification that artists need a good three works in public collections before notability can be established. I have seen that happen for female artist biographies several times, but not yet for male artist biographies."? Johnbod (talk) 11:18, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
        • You are taking it out of context, Johnbod. I was talking about what I've seen happen or not happen to male and female biographies that I created. My own work has been the subject of my own posts in this conversation so far. I am not in a position to generalise. Storye book (talk) 14:44, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

          Oh look, it's Johnbod. Every time we have this discussion on whether trollish behavior makes Wikipedia a hostile environment for women editors, Johnbod sealions in to say "well actually that's perfectly appropriate behavior because they do the same thing to everyone else" (check the archives e.g.). Look in the mirror, Johnbod. —David Eppstein (talk) 16:09, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

          • Bullshit, Eppstein. I'm not saying that, & have never said that or anything like it. By all means look at that old discussion, which doesn't in the least support your assertion. Got any others? More research needed. Johnbod (talk) 16:42, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

            @Johnbod: If this was an ANI or Arbcom discussion, or a place where individual editors were being called trolls, your response might be warranted. But Storye book is trying to describe their experiences. Even if you don't feel their comments are quite fair, it's worth letting people vent.

            I think you also should bear in mind that you're also speaking about your experiences. None of us is speaking from carefully analysed data. My experience in my other life, where I get deletion notifications about student work, suggests that a lot more new bios of women get nominated for deletion, often by anons or editors with very few edits. The problem is that the student editors I work with create more bios of women, and women are less well covered in RSs, so there's a huge confounding factor.

            The thing is, your response here feels aggressive, it feels disruptive. Nuance in written communication is really hard to parse, and I don't believe it's your intent to derail things. But there's often a gap between intent and effect. Guettarda (talk) 16:59, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

            • I think one of the few things that is clear from academic research in this area is that male bios are more likely to be put up for deletion than female ones, and more likely to be deleted. Johnbod (talk) 17:05, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

It is usually at this point that I go radio silent, as this thread has begun to make me uncomfortable. Because my safe zone is WiR, I'm going to say something that is possibly unpopular (and then go radio silent). The irony of a thread talking about reducing aggression devolving into an aggressive thread is surely not lost on anyone. Can we 1) stop name-calling people? Describing bad behaviors does not have to use words like "troll" and "sealioning", which often will trigger an aggressive response. 2) stay focused on the topic of retention of editors and not descend into personal attacks? 3) be civil even when discussing topics that are difficult? Thanks, I'm out. SusunW (talk) 16:58, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

• Comment. Everyone please be kind to one another. While we may not always agree with other's perspectives we should respect them. Further, it isn't wise to tell other people how to feel about what they have experienced.4meter4 (talk) 17:02, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

2022 Pulitzer Prize finalists

I created stubs for four 2022 Pulitzer Prize finalists:

• Sylvia Khoury
• Kate Masur
• Carla Power
• Janice P. Nimura

Any help would be wonderful. Thank you, Thriley (talk) 05:58, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

• I have added surname page entries for three of them: when Sylvia moves out of draft space, good luck in working out where to add her in the chaotic-looking list at Khouri (to which Khoury redirects): I can't work out what order it's trying to be in! PamD 11:54, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
  • I've also added DEFAULTSORT for all four - but can I point out to everyone the joys of the template {{L}}?

  It has to be used "substituted", but in just a few keystrokes you can add the DEFAULTSORT and whichever is appropriate of Category:Living people, Category:Year of birth missing (living people), and/or birth or death year categories. It takes three parameters, identified by their position in the template call: birth year if known, death year if known (or "missing" if known to be dead), and DEFAULTSORT value. Just type {{subst:L|||Power, Carla}}, for someone living, birth date unknown, sorting on "P". If you know someone's year of birth or death, include that: {{subst:L|1952|2022|Surname, Forename}} etc. If editing a draft, use this template, save the edit, and then immediately go back in with a second edit to hide the categories (colons or commenting out) while it's in draft (as I did with Draft:Sylvia Khoury)

  It gives good value per keystroke and makes it easy to give a biography article some of the infrastructure it needs! PamD 13:29, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

  One more: Erin I. Kelly. Thank you for your help! Thriley (talk) 05:46, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

• I've added in-links to these authors from other WP pages. I thought this would be quick - but in fact there were a load of unlinked mentions - showing how overdue these pages were! Thank you Thriley for creating them Dsp13 (talk) 11:57, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Kathy Barnette

Noting some press about this article being "deleted":[4][5]. For the interested. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:16, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Why the scare quotes? It was deleted, after two AfDs: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kathy Barnette (April 2021) and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kathy Barnette (2nd nomination) (May 2022). —David Eppstein (talk) 08:22, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Because it's currently a redirect, with some relevant info. To their credit, CP notes the distinction. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:49, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Shireen Abu Akleh Image?

I noticed that the article for Shireen Abu Akleh no longer has an image. This article will be getting hundreds of thousands of views over the next few days. Any chance there appears to be a usable image somewhere? Thriley (talk) 04:30, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

I am not see anything in PD. "Fair use" might be contentious this close to her death. I think the image presented will be the best available at this time. WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 21:19, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Women in World Politics

I have created an index of the women politicians with entries in the 1991 Who's Who of Women in World Politics which includes a lot of articles that could be expanded, created or translated. The full list is at User:Sammielh/Who's_Who_of_Women_in_World_Politics if this is helpful for anyone else! (There are definitely going to be some typos though so please double-check the correct name of the article before creating one!) Sammielh (talk) 10:36, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, Sammielh, for sharing this useful list. The interlanguage links you have included should be useful for our translation contest or simply as a basis for improving our coverage of women politicians country bu country. Rosiestep: Any ideas on how to add this list to our resources?--Ipigott (talk) 09:06, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

This is awesome, Sammielh. A big thank you for creating this list. Ipigott, I think the contents could be copied into a WiR redlist à la "Dct" formation, such as the others we have here: Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Redlist index#Dictionaries and other reference works. For proper attribution, the copying should follow this process: Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia. Plus there should be a note at the top regarding: "double-check the correct name per the list creator". --Rosiestep (talk) 13:48, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

I hope Sammielh will be able to handle this. I am not too happy about copying work by other contributors.--Ipigott (talk) 14:55, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Rosiestep and Ipigott! The list has been added to Dictionaries and other reference works at Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Missing articles by dictionary/Who's Who of Women in World Politics Sammielh (talk) 16:54, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Great! Thank you. Rosiestep (talk) 16:56, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Fair use for photos credited to newspaper

Hello again -- Finally got around to finishing up an article on the American oboist Lois Wann, and was about to upload a nice fair-use image when I thought I'd better check the fair-use guidelines as to what size is currently recommended, and was surprised to find that fair use is excluded for "A photo from a press agency or photo agency (e.g., AP or Getty Images), unless the photo itself is the subject of sourced commentary in the article." The image I want to use is credited to Philadelphia Inquirer 1940 and I've not been able to find any further information. It's from p. 35 of the (fascinating) book Groh, Jan Bell. Evening the Score: Women in Music and the Legacy of Frédérique Petrides (University of Arkansas Press; 1994) via Project Muse (specific subscription required). It's identical to the first image found in a Google image search on an oboe blog, which I won't link to in case of copyright issues. I haven't found any other images of Wann online. Any advice appreciated! I know there are lots of image experts here. Thanks, Espresso Addict (talk) 08:12, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Lovely image! I think it’s fine, even if it tends to point up an inconsistency in our policy on this (which I have the impression really strongly errs on the side of caution anyhow.) No idea why there is more presumption of commercial interest for the archives of a photo agency than those of a newspaper/magazine (which can be quite valuable), but I do not understand our fair use policy to exclude all newsmedia images. Innisfree987 (talk) 08:48, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Espresso Addict I think you can upload it as a regular commons upload. 1940 photographs had a 28 year copyright and to be protected beyond that point had to be renewed. So, it was published in the Philadelphia Inquirer in 1940. At that time, it was copyrighted by virtue of their masthead claim. However, in the "Renewals" section of the Catalog of Copyright Entries for periodicals (pp. 383-419) , there is no entry for the Inquirer (which registered as Triangle Publications, Inc.) in 1968. The maker was Grace Voss, i.e. Grace Voss Frederick, who died in 2009. In 1940, only one entry for a work of art, i.e. painting, sculpture, photograph, etc. was registered for anyone named Voss, and that was not Grace. Thus, you should be safe to upload it with the tag {{PD-US-not renewed}}. SusunW (talk) 14:10, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

And thanks for asking the question, as had you not, I would never have known about this photographer, whose article needs serious work. SusunW (talk) 14:37, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Espresso Addict One more tidbit, working on Voss has shown she did file other copyrights in the 1940s-1950s, so the fact that she didn't here makes me doubly sure you are okay to use that image. SusunW (talk) 14:06, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Excellent, thanks for all the research help, SusunW! Espresso Addict (talk) 14:13, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rhea Kewalramani

Hi! Any folks here really good source ninjas? We're running into issues with verifying whether her films ran at Cannes in a student section and any coverage of her work and would like this to have a fair AfD (I say this as nominator). She's currently(?) working as an animator in Mumbai. Thanks either way. Star Mississippi 13:39, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Roe vs. Wade

After trying to deconstruct that Wikipedia page for some Wikipedians over at nlwiki I realized this page has grown way beyond what normal people are willing and able to consult for bar talk using a mobile phone. Is there any quick explainer for non-USA readers that would break down what is happening in the US right now on the subject of abortion? Because reading the Roe vs. Wade article is not particularly helpful. Any tips welcome! Jane (talk) 08:10, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

OMG a quick tour of the normal "ontology" route (law, law subject, laws about the subject) bring me to "Abortion Law" and "Abortion in the United States" and both have grown beyond their potential usability for people trying to understand what's going on. I think putting "Abortion Law" into "Abortion in the United States" was a bit of a mix-up and agree that Abortion is not the same as Abortion Law. I am missing a section on trigger laws per state, because as far as I can tell, this is the most direct threat to lives & welfare of US pregnant people and/or their caregivers this year. We now have Trigger law, but that doesn't translate well considering the conflation with gun legislation (which also has trigger laws). I think the concept of a trigger law is helpful, but I also think the Abortion laws per state with their associated history of legislation (including for tribal nations) and trigger laws is needed. Jane (talk) 09:09, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Jane023 I cannot speak for everyone. This is too emotional an issue to write on now for me, but what you are asking is nigh on to impossible. There are nearly 550 federally recognized tribes and 50 states, not to mention some 60 state recognized tribes. That being said, many Federally-recognized tribes benefit from the Indian Health Service which is a federally run organization, thus its available services would follow federal law. There is no national health service in the US and available health care varies widely depending on where one lives. If you want a parallel of a likely scenario if SCOTUS overturns Roe, look at any "red vs blue states 2022 map" and red ones will likely indicate where women, especially poor women, will have limited/no rights. SusunW (talk) 14:05, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Jane023: I realize this is an extremely complex issue for the non-English wikis. As it is likely to evolve over the coming months, my advice would be to provide a good explanatory lead, covering the historical background and summarizing the political issues which still need to be resolved. It is of course a key component in everything to do with women's rights but it should not be forgotten that the United States was instrumental in allowing abortions as early as 1973. (See Abortion in the United States). I would suggest that only really meaningful developments should be included in articles on Roe vs. Wade in other wikis.--Ipigott (talk) 18:37, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi thanks for the comments. I have been reading recent coverage and listening to various podcasts and chuckling as I realize how impossible it is to give a short version of the facts. I mean, for example, how do you explain that reversing Roe will affect gay or interracial marriage? You basically have to go all the way back to how the US Supreme Court was set up and the situation regarding legislation vs their decisions influencing laws. Even the Planned Parenthood website has trouble giving a short summary. The main problem is that the issues covered by Roe are different per stakeholder party (caregiver, pregnant person, other indirect stakeholder). Now I am trying to wrap my head around the type of lead you need according to reader audience. Such a puzzle, but I am slowly coming to see that it might be better to frame the current Roe debate as an event that quotes laws & SCOTUS decisions, rather than trying to cover it in such articles - we will probably only have more such "events" (and this is the reason those articles have ballooned out of control already). Jane (talk) 08:09, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Oh and I am trying to read all the coverage with my Wikidata hat on as well, so "extremely complex issue for the non-English wikis" applies there as well: how to you link these issues in time (decisions, law), governing body (SCOTUS, US Congress, state legislatures), stakeholder (do Roe, Wade & Casey even matter at this point?), breaking news issue (leak, leaker, trigger law, trigger law repeal). Arrgh!! Jane (talk) 08:21, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Formula shortage article: help! And also: wow!

I'm having an experience that's new to me, but probably familiar to folks in this WikiProject.

A few days ago, I noticed there was no article on the 2022 United States infant formula shortage. Surprised the hell out of me, so I created one. Without much time on my hands, I went to Village Pump for help. Someone pointed out that In the news would be appropriate to get more attention, so today I tried my luck there. You can see how well that went.

I've been an active editor for 16 years, and I've never personally seen this kind of insane reaction. I assume this is pure sexism, although I didn't think keeping infants alive was a "women's issue".

So I guess I'm looking for 1) help improving the state of the article and making it appropriately visible, and 2) commiseration, having shouted into the void and had it shout hatefully back. (I know I'm not a victim.) —swpb^{T • go beyond • bad idea} 16:20, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

• Swpb. As far as I can see the article is still up and running. Why do think it is so important to include in news?--Ipigott (talk) 18:14, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

• • It's in the headlines of every major US media outlet and several abroad, is being felt by tens of thousands of people, and concerns a product some people rely on to live? I didn't think I'd get that question here. —swpb^{T • go beyond • bad idea} 18:59, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

    I think you are in error to assume it is pure sexism, though I have no doubt that sexism plays some role. However, commenters at ITN are predisposed to have a bias against US-centric items. They sometimes go a bit too far in an effort to prevent "In the News" from becoming "In the U.S. News". I think that is the bulk of what you are being hit with over there. I'm honestly a little surprised the Buffalo shooting made it on. ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 19:06, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

New developments

Swpb: Biden's involvement by invoking the Defense Production Act is now the first item on BBC World News. See also here. It's now certainly reached international significance.--Ipigott (talk) 10:14, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! I'm not seeing it on BBC World News, can you drop a link? —swpb^{T • go beyond • bad idea} 14:44, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

It's a big story for The Guardian in the UK here. -- Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 14:57, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. If either of you think the international coverage is now sufficient to justify another go at ITN, you'll have my full support; I'm too gun-shy to re-nominate it myself after my first experience. —swpb^{T • go beyond • bad idea} 18:59, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Swpb: I was referring to BBC World News radio, not TV. It was the first item at 5 am GMT today and was repeated in at least one more broadcast. I gave a link above to an equivalent item on their website--Ipigott (talk) 19:59, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Image Description Week (16-22 May 2022)

If you're like me, and a lot of other Wikipedians, you aren't as good with image descriptions as you are writing biographies. So I was glad to learn about m:Image Description Week (16-22 May 2022). First session starts tomorrow May 17th and I'll be there. Okay to be anonymous (turn off audio and video). --Rosiestep (talk) 19:21, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing. I only caught the last 20 minutes of the first session, but what I saw was excellent and it was recorded so, hopefully, the video will be made available in due course.--Oronsay (talk) 17:24, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Kathleen Freeman (classicist)

I have reviewed the DYK nomination for a new good article relevant to this project, Kathleen Freeman (classicist), but the nominator Srsval has not answered any of my questions for three weeks. (They did respond on their talk page on 3 May, saying that they hadn't had time.) Would anybody be willing to adopt the nomination? Otherwise it may get rejected as stale. I have also notified Wikipedia talk:Women's Classical Committee. TSventon (talk) 07:56, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

TSventon: Thanks for bringing this to our attention but I am surprised at all your red crosses as Kathleen Freeman (classicist) reached GA status as recently as 13 April. Articles reaching GA are generally included on DYK without major difficulties. Is all this additional research really necessary? I certainly sympathize with the nominator for not having time to look into all your queries.--Ipigott (talk) 10:57, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

@TSventon I'll pick it up! Lajmmoore (talk) 17:04, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Lajmmoore, thank you for the offer, this was my first DYK review of a GA, so any feedback will be welcome. I don't think any of the questions I raised were particularly difficult. TSventon (talk) 17:14, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

@TSventon I've addressed all the points you raised, and added an ALT1 - I am more tired than I thought, so got a bit confused about the newspaper clipping. Let me know if you think there are further changes needed Lajmmoore (talk) 18:35, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

I very much welcome this fruitful collaboration and see that there now seems to be only one point requiring attention. Thank you, Lajmmoore for devoting so much time and effort to sorting things out.--Ipigott (talk) 05:35, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks all, I have passed the nomination and moved the remaining question to the article talk page. TSventon (talk) 19:12, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Donation to WiR?

Hello. Does WiR accept donations? I have a research participant who would like to donate their reward for participating in WMF research to WiR, but I see no indication that WiR accepts donations. Will someone please direct me to your donation channels or someone to speak to on the matter? Thanks. BGerdemann (WMF) (talk) 16:12, 17 May 2022 (UTC) / bgerdemann@wikimedia.org

:I do not think the project per se has any fundraising / donations campaign. So, passing back to WP:WMF might be the best. Alternately, if someone here has an idea of a post-card campaign or sponsoring a edit-a-thon or some sort of give-aways that might be worth it. I will admit, I have little idea of the mechanics of orchestrating such a campaign. Best wishes and please thank the the research participant for thinking of this project. Ktin (talk) 16:27, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

BGerdemann (WMF) we do have a bank account. I donated my winnings from a contest as well, in the hopes that at some point we can use it to purchase resource materials. Rosiestep knows the information about it. SusunW (talk) 16:35, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi, BGerdemann (WMF). Yes, WiR accepts donations! Our fiscal sponsor is m:Wikimedia District of Columbia. The current president is Econterms; if you contact him, he can provide the banking info for a donation. Thank you!

P.S. All, I have also made donations to the WiR account, e.g. honorariums from speaking engagements. I don't believe that, to date, WiR has spent any of the money in its account. As SusunW mentions, it was set up with a view of purchasing resource materials. Maybe there are other thoughts about how to use it? --Rosiestep (talk) 16:46, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

I think I would be great if we could pay a coder to get the WiR pages into an updated format. Everything is legacy with interlocking templates etc. Waaaay beyond my coding skills. I mean something like Wikipedia:WikiProject COVID-19. Best, WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 00:50, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Good suggestion, WomenArtistUpdates. I think it might be useful to explain to The Earwig and any others working on Wikipedia tools that we are considering devoting independent funding to updating our vital membership registration facility which has not functioned correctly for quite some time. Maybe we could obtain details of what needs to be done to get the system up and running again. I believe MarioGom once looked into it. We could then try to find someone able to take on the work. I have not devoted any funds to WiR but have always refused payments in connection with competitions, etc., simply suggesting that they should be used for others. As there appears to be some confusion about this, it might be useful to have a page about donations to WiR. There's certainly much more we could do if we were able to draw on private funding. Indeed, those interested in donating might well have ideas of their own.--Ipigott (talk) 06:06, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

WomenArtistUpdates: What do you miss from Wikipedia:WikiProject COVID-19 at Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red? I can try doing some updates if we have some agreement on what should be done. MarioGom (talk) 10:12, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

• Hi MarioGom! Actually, I don't have an issue with our landing page, but I work from a desktop with a 21" screen, using Source editor. My understanding is that these days most users are accessing Wikipedia from their phones and using visual editor. My impression is that we have a legacy space that works for those of us who have been around for awhile but the small screen isn't welcoming. I have no ideas or insight on visual editing on a phone and think a professional opinion would be good. I also just imagine that the tabs on the top of the page are more phone friendly. Personally, I can find everything I need in the template at the bottom of the page "Template:Women in Red navigation". WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 18:08, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

I had the same idea that we should probably update our media pages with donation information Ipigott, but then wondered if that meant we would need to be more formally organized. We tried for a couple of years to work with the WP Library on a women's collection of materials, but just couldn't figure out a way to do it. We also tried to work out an arrangement for WiR to secure a subscription for AllAfrica but were never able to obtain sufficient information about organizational access, because we wanted to make sure all WiR members would be able to access their collections. Maybe it's time to revisit the issue of organization, funding, etc.? SusunW (talk) 13:33, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

I suppose the least we could do would be to draw up a list of the present shortcomings of our tools, formats and page setups. Another item which seems to cause unnecessary trouble is the (lack of) regular updating of our redlists. If it's too difficult to handle all this on the basis of donations, then perhaps programmers like Maximilianklein could apply for WMF funding.--Ipigott (talk) 14:58, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

• Hi Ipigott, I agree that finding/funding a fix for the membership registration and updating of our redlists should be the priority. Those issues come up again and again.WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 18:13, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

So it seems mobile would be the focus for improvements, especially mobile editing? Which project pages do we expect to need such improvements? Event pages for signup? Also crowd-sourced redlists? MarioGom (talk) 18:37, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

MarioGom My thought is that this is an area where the Foundation or other Wikiprojects have traveled. If the issue of small screens has been encountered and solved elsewhere, we could leverage that information. There's gotta be a coder out there working in best practices for the mobile version, or fixing deprecated code. On the other hand, if WiRers are all old school, don't need/want mobile, maybe we just need to make a list of what we know is broken as Ipigott suggested. WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 19:33, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm all for improving usability, but we'd need to articulate what are we trying to achieve. A list of issues, as Ipigott mentioned, would be a good place to start. MarioGom (talk) 22:33, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

User welcome template

Twinkle has a list of welcome templates for various wikiprojects, but WiR isn't on there. It's the one I'd want to use most often - would anyone be interested in creating one? Or is there some good reason it doesn't already exist? asilvering (talk) 18:28, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

There's an invitation template at {{WikiProject Women in Red invite}}, but we could use a welcome template too. MarioGom (talk) 22:41, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

This is great as it is, thank you! -- asilvering (talk) 01:58, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for looking into this, Asilvering. Rather than using a standard welcome template for new members of the project, I have always tried to adapt my response to the specific messages made in connection with registration. I generally also look into the new member's background, contributions and any new articles. Perhaps you remember the welcome message I sent to you on 23 November 2021. Up to now, I have found this pretty effective but if you feel we should adopt a less time-consuming approach which could be used by any of our members (and not just me), we could discuss things further. Your own progress has been particularly successful, especially your recent translated biography of Adélaïde Valentin. Keep up the good work.

In this connection, may I once again suggest that we increase our efforts to encourage new participants in the project. Thanks, MarioGom, for reminding us that we have a useful invite template which anyone can use. We've been averaging less than ten new members a month. Let's see if we can achieve a significant increase over the rest of the year.--Ipigott (talk) 05:49, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Draft:Marcia Alice Herndon

Does anyone with an interest in ethnomusicology or anthropology want to have a look at this draft? It feels like a lost WikiEdu assignment. I've pulled a lot of WP:OR out of it but it's still not in great shape. She's obviously notable, but I hesitate to hit "accept" on it in its current state. -- asilvering (talk) 19:18, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

I've done a bit of copy editing on this and added categories. Looks almost ready for article space but maybe ARoseWolf would first like to look through it.--Ipigott (talk) 08:09, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Asilvering, fascinating article about a truly amazing human being. Tying healing to music is kind of my life so I can totally understand her points of view. I didn't see much if any copy editing that needed to be done. The article is very heavily reliant on what some would call primary sources (her own works) so it might help if we can find one more independent source to add. I've seen most reviewers accept outright if there are three independent sources but two is better than one. Ipigott, thank you for including me in this. It's truly remarkable to see the similarities in our view on music and how it is tied to culture, thought and body. I love that you brought out she was a story teller. Story telling was and still is very important to Cherokee culture. All around amazingly beautiful article that shares her Song with all of us. --ARoseWolf 12:33, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Asilvering, I'm so sorry. I obviously didn't read your statement in full above and I apologize. I was so wrapped up in the excitement of reading the article that I skimmed over the statements here and responded in haste before I took a second look. Ii was when I went back to review it and look for additional sources that I noticed SusunW came to the rescue, as she always does and in her typical extraordinary and amazing fashion. I believe, with the secondary sources that Susun added, the article is safe to accept into mainspace and will withstand any scrutiny thrown its way. --ARoseWolf 15:45, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm not remotely finished. Still working on it. SusunW (talk) 16:09, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

@SusunW What a transformation! You're a hero. I don't want to edit-conflict you with a page move so I'll leave it in draftspace for now. -- asilvering (talk) 20:05, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Asilvering please, please do leave it as a draft and thank you for your kind words. I'm pretty good with research, but work slowly, because I compare various sources while I'm writing. I don't work well in mainspace (it stresses me out.) It will probably be tomorrow before I can finish the research section, as I have a doctor's appointment in an hour. SusunW (talk) 20:27, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Asilvering I think I'm done. Deleted the OR and tried to find at least one review for the articles that Cynthia Tse Kimberlin & Pirkko Moisala and Robertson noted were her most important works. My biggest "I don't know" is if she is/was a member of the Eastern Cherokee tribe or rather she had Cherokee ancestry. I would be reluctant to actually tag her as Native American until we have clarification on that, because only the tribe has the right to define who its members are. Perhaps Yuchitown knows of an avenue to resolve that point. At any rate, I've tried to write it as the sources indicate, showing she was an expert only. I think you can move it if you concur it's ready for mainspace, but I would also note the WP:Commonname is Marcia Herndon, not Marcia Alice Herndon. SusunW (talk) 17:38, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Usually when ones sees "of Cherokee heritage" it means that they had Cherokee relatives, in this case her grand parents though it isn't stated on which side, but are not official members. The EBCI requires a direct lineage to someone on the 1924 Baker Roll as well as 1/16th or more Cherokee blood. The Cherokee Nation only requires a direct lineage to one or more persons on the Dawes Roll but has no blood requirement. I think Cherokee heritage is sufficient barring some concrete evidence supporting a different outcome. --ARoseWolf 17:53, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you ARoseWolf. I can try to work with that. SusunW (talk) 17:58, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

SusunW, I'll post something on Indigenous peoples of North America. I added the template to the talk page because of her connection with the ethnomusicology of Native American music not because of any purported connection with any tribe or nation. --ARoseWolf 18:10, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

ARoseWolf from what I am seeing, that's the way to go. Her parents were George Everett(e) and Harline/Alma (née Simmons) Herndon.[6] I think Harline may be an error because the 1940 census a year before her birth gives George's wife's name as Alma, which matches his wife on the death certificate. Marcia's paternal grandparents were Verma (née Hooker) and George Washington Herndon because Verma's obit clearly lists Marcia as her granddaughter. If this is the complete list of the 1924 Baker Roll, none of the surnames in her family except Herndon appear on the list and so far, I find no connection to Lizzie M. as George's parents were Erasmus and Amelia Herndon from South Carolina. SusunW (talk) 18:53, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

SusunW, I'm struggling with the "half-breed" statement and especially the "elder" status. They might be in the sources but what weight if any do they carry without being able to verify the claim? She couldn't be and elder unless she was, herself, enrolled in the EBCI. They don't just hand those positions out. Heritage? Perhaps. She's amazing and has left quite an impact without the claims being in the article. --ARoseWolf 19:06, 20 May 2022 (UTC) --edited 19:07, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

ARoseWolf, I struggled with it too, but the source says she called herself "half-breed". Several sources indicate she studied and trained in Cherokee rituals and healing, which I cannot imagine would have been open to an outsider. So, it is a conundrum. Please feel free to edit it however you think best. SusunW (talk) 19:13, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

SusunW, Same with her being an authority on anything Eastern Band of Cherokee or Cherokee traditions in general. I'm not comfortable with that being said in Wiki-voice without some corroborating document outside someone referencing to her own memoirs or works. Maybe there is a way around that though. Similar to how we said she referred to herself as this. We can find a way to include it as it is in the sources but in such a way as we are saying she called herself this or someone else referred to her as that. At least until we might be able to find some non-digitized sources. Do you think that would work? --ARoseWolf 19:21, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

ARoseWolf perhaps, she was recognized "by her academic peers"? Those are who called her that, though I note that Cynthia Tse Kimberlin who is Navajo was one of those academics. Kimberlin also says it was her "Cherokee maternal grandparents" but that seems unlikely because her mom was from Tennessee, not North Carolina and her dad's family lived in Canton per Verma's obit. SusunW (talk) 19:31, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

ARoseWolf I tweaked both sentences. Better? SusunW (talk) 19:38, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

SusunW, much better! Cherokee in Tennessee may not as far fetched as one might believe. It's possible that there were Cherokee in Tennessee at the time (the old Cherokee Nation before the Removal stretched from Alabama into Georgia and up through Tennessee into the Carolinas) but how possible I just don't know. It's likely she was recognized by her peers as such so that works. It would be great if we could find out who her maternal grandparents were but that's how it goes sometimes. --ARoseWolf 19:45, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

ARoseWolf Yes, I'm aware of the historical connection to other states, but there are zero instances of Simmons on that Roll. Her mom's obit is not remotely helpful and so far I haven't found any ancestry for her. SusunW (talk) 19:53, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

SusunW The claims in the sources are enough to have them in the article and I believe you have sufficiently taken the claims out of Wiki-voice. I'm not sure much more can be done so maybe someone else will see our conversation or the article and provide non-digital sources or sources not online to fill in the blanks. Simply amazing work you did, Susun. Thank you! --ARoseWolf 20:00, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

ARoseWolf That's the hope, and I put a note on the talk page. I found her mom's folks. Alma's death certificate lists her as Marcia's mom and says she was born in Hartford, Tennessee and her parents were Alice Cates and John Simmons. John died in 1957 and at that time, he and Alice were still living in Hartford, so it seems completely unlikely that the grandparents she grew up living "near" could have been her mother's parents. Neither Cates nor Simmons appears on the Baker Roll. SusunW (talk) 20:21, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

SusunW, her Cherokee heritage as described by her colleagues and herself seems less and less plausible the more you find. That's frustrating and a little disappointing. --ARoseWolf 20:27, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Still a fascinating individual and amazing woman. I'm so glad you worked on her article, Susun. And you did such amazing work that I think you should put it up for WP:GA as suggested by Asilvering. --ARoseWolf 20:33, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

ARoseWolf I do think it unlikely at this point, but I try to be careful. If we err, it should be on the side of caution. It's complicated and since I have family on both the enrolled and not spectra, I get the situation pretty well. Full disclosure, I am not Native American. My great-grandfather's second wife (my family is from the first wife) was Native American and some of her family chose to enroll, while others didn't. Okay, I'll nominate it. SusunW (talk) 20:39, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

• Not a WiR member, but popped over here because she's a North Carolinian. Article looks good, but someone might want to double check the copyright status of that photo. Searches have done to look for copyright renewal, but they were done searching "UPI Telephoto" and "variations". UPI stands for "United Press International", a wire service and press agency. It's very risky to use press agency photos. @SusunW:, what vairations did you check? "United Press International" and "UPI Newspicture" (their division which distributed telephotos) would be good ones. Per this LoC information page on UPI photos generally, there is good reason to believe the photo is indeed out of copyright, but it wouldn't hurt to be doubly sure. -Indy beetle (talk) 21:03, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Indy beetle I checked, as I said on the upload every variation I could think of: UPI, United Press International, UPI Telephoto, Telephoto, UPI Newspicture, Newspicture, United Press. I could not find another use of the photo in either newpapers.com or newspaperarchive.com except in the Denton paper, and I also checked for that, as sometimes other uses will give you a specific photographer or other information. I would not have uploaded it had I not done the searches and provided my "evidence" of same. If you want to check further, the link to the catalog is on the upload. Please feel free to check, as it is possible I missed something. SusunW (talk) 21:23, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

• Thank you, SusunW and ARoseWolf, for the excellent work you have done on this biography. It's this kind of constructive collaboration that makes Women in Red such a successful project. I am no expert on American or Cherokee history but have followed the discussions with interest and am learning more every day!--Ipigott (talk) 08:14, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Ipigott. I enjoy working with Asareel. She would say our songs work in harmony. Native history is complex and difficult. The United States government first tried to annihilate the tribes even while recognizing their sovereignty. Native people experienced extreme racism from society. (My own step-great-grandmother had a "back of the bus" story 2 decades before Rosa Parks.) One of the ways the government tried to destroy Native cultures was to force tribal people to give up their communal territory and receive individual allotments of land. Often those who accepted an allotment were mixed-race and more assimilated people, because those who were full-bloods were more distrustful of the government and white society. To dish out those allotments, the government created "official rolls" (sort of like a census) to specify who was or was not a member of a tribe. The tribe could challenge membership, but there was a lot of graft, i.e. officials enrolled dead persons and then claiming the allotment abandoned, sold it for profit. In the 1970s with the rise of the AIM movement, the government finally abandoned the policy of assimilation and tribal termination and it became popular for people to claim and misappropriate Native ancestry. Thus, tribal governments have strict rules on who is/can become a tribal member and there are federal laws to regulate that only tribal members can officially disseminate their own culture. Long and short of it is Herndon can't be a tribal expert unless she is a member of a tribe, but her academic research may make her an outside authority to other academics. SusunW (talk) 12:53, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

SusunW: Interesting. I think some of this background could usefully be added to the biography, possibly as a footnote.--Ipigott (talk) 15:43, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Ipigott, I've given it a go. Better? SusunW (talk) 14:33, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

SusunW: Well I would have thought it helped understanding of the biography but as you must have seen, others do not agree.--Ipigott (talk) 08:22, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

It's okay Template:Ipigott. Right now people are angry. I get it. It may be that when they are less so, the notes can be re-added. SusunW (talk) 14:20, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Join the WikiAPA edit-a-thon (2022-05-19) with the Smithsonian Asian Pacific American Center

On May 19, 2022 (1pm to 3:30pm Eastern US), join us online to help improve articles for AAPI Heritage Month. Editing of all AAPI topics is encouraged but will be focused on a worklist of women's biographies built from the forthcoming anthology We Are Here: 30 Inspiring Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders Who Shaped the United States, from the Smithsonian Institution, which features the stories of Asian American and Pacific Islander women, nonbinary, third gender, and transgender people.

• Register at the Eventbrite page to join by Zoom, hosted by User:Fuzheado and User:KellyDoyle.
• More information and the worklist are available on the WikiProject coordination page.
• No experience necessary as we teach you how to edit and improve Wikipedia. Also includes demonstrations of related projects Wikimedia Commons and Wikidata.
• Organized in coordination with Smithsonian Asian Pacific American Center and the American Women's History Initiative.

- Fuzheado | Talk 08:40, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Azmat Khan, Pulitzer Prize winning journalist

I created a draft for Azmat Khan. She won a Pulitzer recently, which certainly makes her notable enough for an article. Thriley (talk) 03:01, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

A new editor recently added a lot of material to the draft. Needs a bit of cleanup which I’ll do now. Thriley (talk) 03:02, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and moved the draft to main article space, as the rejection at Articles for Creation on May 9 was improper. She is clearly notable as a Pulitzer Prize winner, and the article should exist in article space so folks can help improve it. Thanks. - Fuzheado | Talk 08:28, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

@Fuzheado: thank you! Thriley (talk) 17:48, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Kathy Barnette nominated for deletion

Kathy Barnette, a controversial American political figure has been been nominated for deletion. In my opinion, she meets the notability threshold, with significant coverage going back several years. Her latest campaign was a proxy battle between different elements of the Republican Party. I foresee many votes to delete rooted in a dislike of Barnette and not a through analysis of the source material. I would appreciate any help in looking at the sourcing and overseeing the deletion nomination. Thank you, Thriley (talk) 17:53, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Gerlin Bean draft

Extended content

My helpers at the tea house were right, there are not enough sources for Gerlin Bean to have her own biography page. So I have made a new section on the British Black Panthers main page called Women and the British Black Power Movement and have mentioned her there. She was not a woman in red but nevertheless deserves recognition according to fellow activists of the era. User: Balance Person Balance person (talk) 09:53, 21 May 2022 (UTC) Balance Person you are kidding, right? I have no idea who told you that, but it is very clear you got bad information. Ask here, not the tea house about women's notability. She has been called "The Mother of the [British Black Feminist and radical] Movement"[7], instrumental in the founding of the Brixton Black Women's Group,[8][9],[10] set up the Black Women's Action Committee of the Black Unity and Freedom Party,[11] founder of OWAAD,[12],[13] fundamental influence of black feminism,[14],[15] community activist and dedicated black nationalist.[16] She developed the Ahfiwe School in London to combat scholastic underachievement.[17] When Zimbabwe gained independence in 1983, she went there to set up government programs for women and children.[18],[19] In Jamaica, she was the chair of the gender section of the Council for Voluntary Social Services[20] and managed the 3D Projects on disability.[21] She has written articles about disability[22], given lectures at the University of the West Indies,[23] (where she apparently earned as master's degree),[24] has given community seminars,[25],[26], founded a school for children with disabilities,[27] served on the St. Catherine's Parish Council, [28] and has served on Jamaica's delegation reporting to OHCHR on children's welfare issues[29] She has been featured in articles[30], and presentations[31],[32], was one of the honorees of the 2014 exhibit "400 Years of African Women Resistance Leaders"[33] and one of the women featured in a sculpture by Wijnand De Jonge and exhibited at the Guildhall Art Gallery in 2017.Gale A480639454 That took about 20 minutes to find. I have no doubt whatsoever a Good Article can be created, but it will likely need someone who also has access to British sources to help (Dangles carrot to Mujinga, who recently worked on Olive Morris taking her to Featured Article status and who I know has access to Brixton archives). I'm more than happy to collaborate with you on it. SusunW (talk) 16:42, 21 May 2022 (UTC) Wow! This is wonderful . Thank you so much, SusunW! My text on the British Black Panthers main page was instantly deleted anyway by Deanna as apparently I got my paraphrasing very wrong. So I am just learning from that editor/administrator about that (their comments are posted on my talk page) and the text is anyway now gone. I would be absolutely delighted to collaborate with you and Mujinga on a page for Gerlin Bean. You would need to know though that I am a beginner here and only just finding my way as you will see from my user page. I don't even know how you collaborate on pages in Wikipedia. But if you had the patience, I would be very happy to chip in if and where I could. Balance person (talk) 17:43, 21 May 2022 (UTC) Balance person you can just click on the link I made above and contribute as you like. We will need to coordinate when we each work on it so we don't trip on each other's fingers SusunW (talk) 17:58, 21 May 2022 (UTC) I'll put the "in use" template on when I am working and take it off when I am not. That way you'll know. You can do the same. SusunW (talk) 18:01, 21 May 2022 (UTC) Okay. But...er...sorry, how do I get to the draft page you are making? I cannot see any links in your message? Balance person (talk) 18:09, 21 May 2022 (UTC) Push the link that is the title of your post here, "Gerlin Bean draft". SusunW (talk) 19:09, 21 May 2022 (UTC) Balance person I'm out for the day if you want to work on it. SusunW (talk) 22:01, 21 May 2022 (UTC) Thanks for the hint about the link! I'm out too but have just had a look. You have included everything I had found out for my (now deleted) text. So, I have just smoothed the odd word of your text here or there. Please revert to your own original text if you do not like my few changes. I don't know if you have this reference on your list? Winston Trew, Black for a Cause… Not Just Because… The case of the ‘Oval 4’ and the story of Black Power in 1970s Britain, London, 2010. I found the Twitter scan too with the Bean interview but understand we can't use Twitter as a source but the Shrew reference can surely still stand? Balance person (talk) 09:37, 22 May 2022 (UTC) Balance person Thanks for that reference. I'll add it to the list of things to work in. Yes, Shrew is valid because it is an edited journal, but social media platforms allow anyone and everyone to post and there is no one who curates the material. This is a little different because it is not a random posting on a social media site by someone who is giving their opinion on something, but rather the social media site is serving as a host of someone else's material. That said, I'd rather not tempt someone to delete the reference if we can find another host site. SusunW (talk) 14:32, 22 May 2022 (UTC) Yes, I can understand that. I have looked but can't find one yet. And I just found these. You probably know them already? Newer leads https://www2.calmview.co.uk/BCA/CalmView/Overview.aspx?src=DServe.Catalog https://www.lsbu.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/114685/african-caribbean-women-post-diaspora-contexts-working-paper.pdf https://www.facebook.com/childrenfirstagency/photos/as-we-continue-tributethursdays-today-we-highlight-our-board-chairman-ms-gerlin-/887468901662995/ (I know we cant use FBook but it is just so nice to see GBs face!) is.gov.jm/sexual-health-programme-for-persons-with-disabilities/ Balance person (talk) 17:20, 22 May 2022 (UTC) Balance person The link to the black cultural archives (I haven't yet looked at the others) is fantastic! It gives information on her time in Zimbabwe that I haven't been able to locate anywhere else. Thank you. We should probably move this conversation to the draft article talk page and continue it there which I will do in a minute. The FB page gives us a contact point, even if we can't use it as a reference, which might help us secure a photograph. SusunW (talk) 17:53, 22 May 2022 (UTC) Comment. There are some academic journals that discuss her work. I have access to them through my university library. See below.4meter4 (talk) 17:48, 21 May 2022 (UTC) Longley, Oumou (November 2021). "Olive and me in the archive: a Black British woman in an archival space". Feminist Review. 129 (1): 123-137. Narayan, John (September 2019). "British Black Power: The anti-imperialism of political blackness and the problem of nativist socialism". The Sociological Review. 67 (5): 945-967. Lewis, Gail ; Hemmings, Clare ; Hemmings, Clare ; Eloit, Ilana (December 2019). "'Where might we go if we dare': moving beyond the 'thick, suffocating fog of whiteness' in feminism". Feminist Theory. 20 (4): 405-421.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) 4meter4 Thank you! Please feel free to add info as well. I've only barely begun, but have written a lede summary from the earlier source search. SusunW (talk) 17:58, 21 May 2022 (UTC) Does anyone know how to get this twitter download of the 1971 Shrew interview in another format. 1) it's tiny, and 2) twitter as a host is no bueno. SusunW (talk) 17:58, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Kimberly Drew

Just de-PROD'ed Kimberly Drew who is clearly notable, PROD'ed by an anonymous user. Page looks OK to me but if someone else has time, my initial impression is that it could incorporate a bit more gravitas (which is there in some of the coverage that is already cited, plus the Black Futures page). Cielquiparle (talk) 12:41, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Question about a draft

So I was working on an article for Curlee Gumbs, and I found a couple news articles about a Curlee Gumbs that competed in a beauty pageant in Anguilla, for whom the ages match, and I was wondering if that is too big of a stretch to make on Wikipedia. There’s also only one “Curlee Gumbs” on Anguilla’s voting register too. Sorry if this doesn’t belong here MRN2electricboogaloo (talk) 03:34, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

MRN2electricboogaloo without providing a "chain of evidence", i.e. something that says the athlete is the beauty contestant, inclusion of the material is original research and not allowed. SusunW (talk) 14:41, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you MRN2electricboogaloo (talk) 18:52, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

The date of birth element is compelling, but a couple of photos suggest they may be different people. CG, far left on this image, shirt has Anguilla logo, so pretty sure there's no photo caption mix-up versus pageant person and pageant person. Whatever our speculation, SusunW has it nailed. --Tagishsimon (talk) 20:10, 22 May 2022 (UTC)