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Hagelstein's cold fusion review in Naturwissenschaften

(This section was archived by a "bot" before a significant number of opinions (compared to other requests) were offered. CAN the article described below be used as a secondary source for various primary sources?)

The peer reviewed interdisciplinary science journal Naturwissenschaften has published a number of articles on cold fusion over the past five years, some of which are used in that article. However, Hagelstein, P.L. (2010) "Constraints on energetic particles in the Fleischmann–Pons experiment" Naturwissenschaften 97(4):345-52 is the first review they have published on the subject, being based on a search "through more than a thousand papers in the published and unpublished literature on the Fleischmann–Pons experiment to find results we could use to develop estimates for upper limits of particle emission per unit energy" (p. 346; PDF p. 2.)

Is that review a reliable secondary source in the context of the cold fusion article for the following claims, which appear verbatim earlier on the same page:

1. "⁴He has been observed in the gas phase in amounts in proportion with the energy produced"; and
2. "Such a large amount of excess energy produced with commensurate ⁴He as a product can be interpreted as indicative of a new physical process"?

Thank you for considering this question. Ura Ursa (talk) 03:25, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

It is not a review article, and it does not support cold fusion. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 01:46, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Care to elaborate? Why does it say "REVIEW" across the top of the first page? Ura Ursa (talk) 06:12, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

It does not have the style and format of a review article. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 07:36, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

It isn't a general topical review, but it is a wide-ranging review of particular data which it summarizes. Does that make it any less authoritative as a reliable source for the article? More importantly, why would or wouldn't it count as a secondary source for the two claims excerpted above? Ura Ursa (talk) 08:11, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

The article is not a review of helium production in such experiments, and it does not evaluate those two claims. But you seem more interested in wikilawyering than in science. Bye. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 09:14, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

It seems like a decent source, but it's not a review article even if the journal decided to paste "REVIEW" at the top. It's more like a commentary. Fences&Windows 23:00, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand. They went through 1000+ sources tabulating data for summarization. In the process they noted helium correlations, which they reported along with a summarization of their results in a graph. How is that like a commentary? Ura Ursa (talk) 00:23, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Whether a source is reliable or not is one thing, but when have editors ever before contradicted a respected, peer-reviewed journal as to whether a paper is a review or not? This whole topic has been the bizarro-world stinking armpit of wikipedia for years. 208.54.14.57 (talk) 04:11, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I "second" that question. Naturwissenschaften was previously argued-about by anti-CF editors here, that it could not be a Reliable Source journal, just because it dared to publish a cold fusion article or three, among all the other types of articles it publishes. The anti-CF editors lost that particular debate (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Cryptic_C62/Cold_fusion#Use_of_Naturwissenschaften_article ), so they have since focussed on whether or not particular articles can qualify as sources for used on the main Cold fusion page. I suspect in this particular case, the anti-CF crowd might have to admit that this new article is a Review, which theoretically means that earlier Naturwissenschaften articles might now be allowed to be mentioned in the main CF page, --but that the anti-CF group will also be able to prevent referring to this new article there, because it itself has not been mentioned by other authors in other articles. And, obviously, if this article can't yet be referenced, then the other articles still can't be referenced! My new Question is, then, how may "layers" of reviews of reviews must the rest of the Wikipedia editors wait for, before any of those primary-reliable-source articles can be referenced???? V (talk) 21:06, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Hm, good point. So let me add another question here:

3. Whether or not it is a review, is it a secondary source for the purposes of including the primary sources it discusses in the cold fusion article? Ura Ursa (talk) 05:36, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

It's a secondary source published by a reliable publishing house (Springer Verlag). It's not necessary to clarify whether the article is a review or not. In addition, any original thought in this paper may be used as an expert opinion, but this is a different matter that should be discussed separately from the question of whether the source can be used to present the papers and positions it is presenting.  Cs32en Talk to me  16:19, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

??? What could be the problem? If it is a secondary source that references various primary Reliable Sources, then what in Wikipedia's rules could possibly prevent those primary sources from being referenced in the cold fusion article? V (talk) 17:48, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

HELLO? Only one editor above has indicated that the newly published Hagelstein paper can be used as a secondary source, for allowing certain primary sources to be used in the cold fusion article. Given all the controversy at the cold fusion pages, that is not enough, by far! V (talk) 15:17, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Should this be moved to the cold fusion talk page? It looks like it's about to be archived here. Ura Ursa (talk) 16:13, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I think no. THIS is the place where the Question posed is most appropriate, to await an Answer. (oops, wasn't logged in) V (talk) 04:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Since there is a lull in the conversation, I will have a go at saying something. I have never edited (and scarcely looked at) CF articles. The article reads to me like a research paper. Its Introduction is by way of a review of the current state of the art (as is normal in research papers). In part Hagelstein analyses observations gleaned from other papers and so this lends a broad scope to his paper. The claims numbered 1 and 2 Ura Ursa quotes result from only four papers, one by Hagelstein himself. To me this provides rather a weak review of only speculative claims. In claim 2 “can be interpreted” seems to mean “it is possible for it to be interpreted” rather than “is to be interpreted”. The main conclusion of the paper, which is not by way of review, I take as being that any ⁴He does not seem to be coming from alpha particles produced by nuclear fusion: “Efforts to account for excess energy in the Fleischmann–Pons experiment based on models that involve energetic particles are unlikely to be successful in light of the upper limits discussed here”. So, the “new physical process” in claim 2, Hagelstein suggests, is not a process of cold fusion involving energetic particles.

I feel it would unbalanced to report the (secondary) two claims without reporting the (primary) conclusion and to report the latter would be premature. I do not know why the paper is labelled “review” and to me it does not matter either way. The thousand papers part is irrelevant. Hagelstein merely says he surveyed these papers to find which ones had observations enabling him to make his analysis and reach his conclusions.

In answer to question 3, I think the paper is a secondary source for the two claims but that things would need to be put in a clear context, particularly bearing in mind the paper’s conclusion. This makes the whole matter very abstruse and difficult to convey succinctly. So, as an editorial decision, I would not put any of this into the CF article. However, I would not a priori preclude the two claims quoted on grounds of WP:V, etc.

I hope this helps (though I fear it may not!). Thincat (talk) 12:56, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Personal website

Is this a reliable source for a death? It appears to be an official personal one and is already linked from the article http://graal.co.uk/index.html article is Laurence_Gardner Off2riorob (talk) 11:10, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I would say this is okay, since is is a self-published source used for information about its author. It might be argued that Gardner couldn't possibly have posted his own death notice, but I would say that this is a complication we can safely ignore, because there doesn't seem to be any reason to question the reliability of the site. I think the death of an article subject is somewhere where it is common sense for WP not to be over-strict in its application of the RS policy. Hypothetically, if no source other than this website ever reports his death, are we to pretend forever that he is still alive? --FormerIP (talk) 11:28, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for commenting, I did also do an archive search on the site and it has been in existence for a few years and it clearly is official in some close associated way, so sadly I have added it, thanks. (ec) Yes I have seen this can be a problem when people who are not very mainstream notable pass on and the sources reporting can be not mainstream and weak, I feel this one to be correct, thank you. Off2riorob (talk) 11:35, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

There are secondary sources available. Here is one [1]. Jrod2 (talk) 12:05, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely NOT. Especially for death notices! Death notices have to be treated with extra care and have to come from especially reliable sources. If the death is legit, it will be picked up elsewhere. Even if the other source cites a personal website/blog, it is incumbent upon us to wait until other sources announce the death notice. I'm not familiar with unknowncountry.com, but unless it is truly a RS, I would be reluctant to accept it.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 21:42, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

No. Dlabtot (talk) 14:37, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

AFIK there is absolutely *nada* on our guidelines that clearly says that a confirmed primary source can NOT be used as reliable source to verify the death of the article's subject. If anything, logic says they can be just as reliable. Example, *unreliable* news source or news blog *X* announces the death of a subject from a long illness with cancer while a very recent article on the subject's personal site reveals that he has gone on remission and is expected to survive. The primary source confirms that the information coming from X is a hoax. Assuming the subject's personal site was not hacked, we can't assume that reliable secondary sources such as Rolling Stone magazine, etc will pick up the death notice of a person, right away. WP:Notability doesnt mean WP:FAME. This means that a combination of primary and secondary sources should b enuff . Jrod2 (talk) 17:57, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes indeedy, the guys dead, its in his article a couple of days now. Off2riorob (talk) 18:00, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

It strikes me that if someone succeeded in hacking an individual's web site, one of the first bits of mischief that might occur to the hacker would be to post a false death notice. Jc3s5h (talk) 18:15, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

That's why a primary, secondary sources combo will fit the criteria. But not using the subject's personal site at all seems ridiculous to me. Jrod2 (talk) 18:43, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

And the notion that someone could self-publish their own death notice does not seem ridiculous to you? Dlabtot (talk) 19:32, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

nope, not if a secondary source corroborates it. Ya assume only the owner has access to his own site...what bout his web designer or the webmaster, ha??. Jrod2 (talk) 17:18, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

It is just a simple and undeniable fact that you can't self-publish something after you're dead. If someone else publishes it, it's not self-published. Dlabtot (talk) 19:14, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

What does that got to do with all this??....if ya dont like the wording at the guideline, change it, aight? i.e. "if subject is really dead, then his personal web sites are dead too and cant be used for s**t".... :)Jrod2 (talk) 23:14, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

The wording of the guideline is fine. It is your interpretation that is off. Dlabtot (talk) 03:20, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

If the wording is fine then what's your point?? Jrod2 (talk) 06:40, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

My point is what I've previously articulated. That dead people can't publish their own death notices. Therefore a death notice can never be self-published and therefore would have to meet all the regular RS requirements. I have no interest in engaging in a pointless dispute with you about whether dead people can publish things. Dlabtot (talk) 08:34, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

The reason self published sources are not considered reliable is that there is no editorial oversight and an individual could publish anything. You're arguing that because the owner of the web site is dead, they cannot be the one publishing this. True enought, but what that also means is that we have no idea who is publishing the data. The data is self-published, it's just we don't know at this point who that self is, thus the source cannot be considered reliable. Nuujinn (talk) 13:25, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Stop clogging n' making your own interpretations of guidelines with a non NPV....if ya found wording that states primary sources cant be used to corroborate the death of the author, just cite it. Jrod2 (talk) 13:35, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

It is true that we don't have a policy that explicitly states that sources that are self-published by dead people are unacceptable. So in that sense, you are right. Dlabtot (talk) 15:06, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Dlabtot, I dont mind having long discussions bout guidelines ad nauseum with u. I kinda like ya ;) But me thinks the problem here is defining the word primary "sel-published" source. Should it change its definition of being primary SP source when the author dies?? Maybe, but if someone else is now publishing on there, then the source only becomes a secondary source...now whether is reliable and meets WP:RS or not, thats why we here for. Jrod2 (talk) 19:09, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

According to WP:SPS personal website are not considered reliable sources, and the web site in question is still a personal web site, even if the original author has passed on to the great wiki in the sky. We could call it a secondary source or a primary source, but it's still not a reliable source. "Articles should be based on reliable, third-party (independent), published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", and this personal web site fails those criteria. Nuujinn (talk) 21:36, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Geez, this GL is so confusing to so many editors, i better take it to the VP....Nuujinn read carefully the language, it doesn't say that self publish sources "can NOT be used as reliable sources, but that are "largely not acceptable". Then theres that caveat on the next paragraph saying basically that if a SPS is an expert then we sure can. This is the function of this noticeboard...to determine WP:RS. This keeps going round n' round in circles, Yo. Jrod2 (talk) 23:21, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Not really in circles, it's really very straightforward. It's a personal website, and we could take the owner of the website as an expert on themselves, although if we do so, we have to be very careful because it falls into BLP. But in this case the web site says the owner of the web site is dead. If we take it as not true, it's de facto unreliable. But if we take it as true, it's not a BLP, but the author of the obit is not the owner of the website, and the obit is thus self published material without any oversight, from an unknown author, and thus we cannot assume the author is an expert and the material is de jure not reliable. Seems simple enough to me. Nuujinn (talk) 18:16, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Read the stuff above again, your opinions are welcome, but they are just your opinions n' your own interpretation of guidelines. We all are the consensus and if most users feel the site can be used then it's used....if not, then not...it's not complicated. This noticeboard operates with consensus not vote, JIC so you don't misrepresent what im saying...U can post on and on n' until the cows come home what you think our guidelines say, but until the wording of that GL is spelled out, theres still nothing that says SPS primary sources are not acceptable to verify the death of an author. Peace out . Jrod2 (talk) 00:24, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Jrod2, you are not only wrong, your position is entirely preposterous. And completely unsupported by any common sense reading of our policies and guidelines or any current or prior consensus. Dlabtot (talk) 01:01, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Ya can say that if it makes ya feel smart but it doesnt change the fact that theres nothing written to support what you're saying [*largely not accepted* dont mean *not accepted*].... if they intended it to be absolutely not acceptable, then they wouldnt have used the word *largely*. Then theres the next guideline both of ya conveniently skip in this discussion :) Dont get personal like that again or ya'll know where it all ends up..;) Jrod2 (talk) 06:39, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

"Dont get personal like that again or ya'll know where it all ends up" - there is nothing personal in what I said. Your argument is ludicrous and absurd, but that is not a personal comment about you. Dlabtot (talk) 19:25, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

"Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves..." Jrod2, are you arguing that Laurence Gardner posted a note to his own website from beyond the grave? And if not, what do you think think the definition of self-published is? Nuujinn (talk) 20:08, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Yup Dlabtot, u make perfect sense...no question ya are playing with our board rules in good faith n' respectful manner ...LOL......And you Nuujinn, cant help ya understand that there ain't GLs that say ya can't use SPS as sources to verify death of subject. Thats why I kept saying that a primary-secondary source combo should be enuff. Jrod2 (talk)

First, the specific point is moot; The Independent has reported on Gardner's death.[2] In general, though, I would side with Jrod2 here. We accept someone acting as an agent for a person as part of self-published; after all, when someone puts a notice on their web site, do we require that they have personally edited the actual HTML, and brought up the server? When someone self publishes a book, are they expected to manually push the buttons that set the type and bind the paper? Surely not. Surely half the time they ask a secretary or spokesman or publisher or someone else to do it for them. The web server is maintained by yet another person, or even an independent web hosting company. We accept it as self-published as long as the orders come from them. In this case, I would argue that the person who put up the notice on the web site was acting as an agent for the person himself; yes, even though the person himself is dead. Whoever put up the notice is almost certainly the same person who put up all the other information on this website. --GRuban (talk) 16:17, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Source for Prahlad Jani

There is a question that came up in a discussion on the NOR noticeboard in regard to use of a video from Youtube, specifically one, which is linked from an article from the Guardian. We're still wrestling with the OR issues, but at this point it seems to me worth asking for clarification as to whether the youtube video can be considered a reliable source. Editor Nazar has argued that the video is "used together with the Guardian article and is a constituent part of it, which makes it a special case". My view is that the video is of unknown origin (it appears to be footage from more than one source which has been subtitled in two different language and shown on news or discussion TV show, which has then been further edited prior to the upload to youtube) and should not be used. The article is a BLP, and it seems to me there may be copyvio issues as well. Any guidance would be appreciated. --Nuujinn (talk) 00:17, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

The Guardian article is RS; the youtube video is not. As per multiple policies, guidelines and the consensus of many discussions of this topic. Dlabtot (talk) 01:02, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I concur. --Martin (talk) 01:28, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

The Guardian article is RS. The Youtube video might be allowable as a primary source because the Guardian article essentially quoted it for the story, but it would be up for debate whether any facts should be cited from the video or whether it would essentially be used as an external link embedded in the text.

As far as copyright issues, if these are short clips and snapshots, that should be fine under fair use ( remember, fair use under US copyright law, not the fair use policy for uploading binaries to Wikipedia ). If it's an entire news segment then that wouldn't be fair use and we shouldn't link to it unless it was uploaded by the TV station.

If there's concerns about original synthesis, it is OK to say "source A says X" and "source B says Y". But you have to word things very carefully if comparing/contrasting sources. There shouldn't be any deduced facts that don't appear in the cited sources, and the wording shouldn't promote a particular thesis. Squidfryerchef (talk) 02:28, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Please do take a look at the video. It's 7:41 long. I do not think it was uploaded by the TV station--rather, it appears to be a copy of a TV segment that has been edited and uploaded by the author of the piece in the Guardian. It is unclear as to who the sources are--we don't know, for example, who put in the polish subtitles in the one set of clips. I'm leaving the OR issues aside here, since that's already in discussion on the other notice board. Nuujinn (talk) 11:12, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

In general, a youtube video is very rarely (never?) a reliable source, but usually it is necessary to know what statement is being verified in order to judge whether the source is adequate. The background is that Prahlad Jani claims that he has lived for 70 years without eating or drinking, and someone wrote an article in the Guardian to contradict claims by supporters of Jani. One of the statements in the article is "an official video clip revealed that Jani would sometimes move out of the CCTV camera's field of view...". An editor has performed an analysis of the youtube video to show what are claimed to be flaws in the Guardian article. The question is: is the video a reliable source for use as in this edit. The answer is no. Johnuniq (talk) 11:35, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that's correct I think. The Guardian article is an RS, but the YouTube video is not. --FormerIP (talk) 17:00, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to thank Nuujinn for bringing the issue up here, as well as everyone for expressing their opinions. Leaving out the technical details, it is my view that an effort should be made to include certain direct citations from the video material to highlight the fact that all the footage used in it comes essentially from 2003 (which is confirmed by the subtitles, which happen to be in Polish and Hindi -- the languages not known to most readers of the Guardian), and not from 2010, as is claimed by the author of the Guardian article. This, in my opinion, is important for the WP:NPOV of the rendering of material in question, because the criticism included into the Guardian article severely discredits multiple entities, including governmental agencies, respectable accredited medical institutions, as well as numerous private persons, involved into the tests as medical experts. Of course, care must be taken to avoid pushing a WP:Synthesis, as well as WP:OR into the article in this process. From my point of view, there is sufficient information in the subtitles of the video in question to provide for the neutral exposure of the above issues. I'm sorry if my attempts were not perfect enough. And I'd appreciate if someone with more experience stepped in and amended the article to make the readers aware of the facts, which would help them judge the Guardian article summary included into the Wikipedia more knowledgeably and neutrally. I remind once more that the video in question is used in connection with that article and is claimed by the author to be his main argument, which supposedly reveals the facts he claims. Thanks. -- Nazar (talk) 18:52, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually, if you read the Guardian article closely, the author does not claim the video is form 2010--he lists some possible loopholes, and then says "While the test was running, I exposed some of those loopholes in a live programme on India TV: an official video clip revealed that Jani would sometimes move out of the CCTV camera's field of view; he was allowed to receive devotees and could even leave the sealed test room for a sun bath; his regular gargling and bathing activities were not sufficiently monitored and so on." But I don't think that's really important for this discussion. My feeling is simply that there is too much uncertainty about the origins of the various component parts of the video to allow it to be considered reliable. As a far as I can see it cannot be verified. --Nuujinn (talk) 22:45, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

"there is too much uncertainty about the origins of the various component parts of the video" - agree. Still, the whole Guardian article is written in such way as to make the readers believe that there is an undeniable evidence in the video which reveals deception during 2010 tests. Also, in the video itself, there is an inserted blue screen with English headings (likely the result of Edamaruku's editing) before the episodes of supposed 'obstruction by devotees', which falsely claims them to be related to 2010 tests. It just pains me to see that a conman like that can mislead so many people, and we have to repeat his misleading claims here in Wikipedia, misleading the readers in the same way. Thanks. -- Nazar (talk) 12:07, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Nazar, with all due respect, you have a right to your opinions and your interpretations, but they are not suitable for inclusion in an article. We should stick to reporting what reliable sources say, and it is not our place to protect people from what we believe are misleading claims. --Nuujinn (talk) 02:15, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: Do you think that using a con to discredit an exceptional claim is an acceptable option? Thanks. -- Nazar (talk) 12:07, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

YouTube videos are used in a number of articles as reliable sources, most frequently on articles about YouTube personalities and producers - Category:YouTube video producers, though also on some of our most high profile Featured Articles, such as Barack Obama. The YouTube site is source holder for various videos from reliable and unreliable sources, so a video on YouTube may or may not be used as a reliable source depending on the individual video and the context in which it is being used. If the video itself is created by an individual it would fall under WP:SELFPUBLISH. In this case it appears that the video was created and uploaded by Rationalist International, who have this website, and of which Sanal Edamaruku, the author of the Guardian piece, is the president. There are a number of very respectable scientists and thinkers associated with Rationalist International, though they are "honorary" associates, rather than directly involved, and Rationalist International do not appear to be quoted by academics or news organisations listed on Google. The question then is, not about YouTube, but about Rationalist International. Is Sanal Edamaruku using his position within that organisation to self-publish the video - if yes, then the video comes under WP:SELFPUBLISH, and as this is a BLP article, the video would not be allowed. If it is felt that Rationalist International are a proper organisation, then the video is a reliable source. Having looked carefully at the website, I feel there is sufficient doubt that the organisation is anything more than a vehicle for Sanal Edamaruku, so WP:SELFPUBLISH would apply and the BLP clause would kick in, and the video be removed, even with the link in the Guardian. The Comment is free column in the Guardian is an opinion column, close to a blog, but that is regarded as reliable by WP:NEWSBLOG, so what Edamaruku says there can be used in the article - though used with appropriate care, as this is a BLP, and that is an opinion piece - so the use in the article should make clear that it is the opinion of an individual writing in the Guardian, and not passed off as fact. SilkTork *^YES! 15:44, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, SilkTork *^YES!! Your comment was very neutral and elucidative at the same time. I've learned something. -- Nazar (talk) 11:14, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Is Rangers Central a reliable website!

I have been editing the article Day of the Dumpster. I am in dispute with the user User:Ryulong as he believes sources like this [3] are useful. I believe the website Rangers fails as a reliabe source because its a fansite does anyone have an opinion. Is it a reliable source or not? 82.25.105.18 (talk) 06:00, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it's reliable; it's a self published website that's not affiliated with any official organization or anything. I wouldn't use it. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 11:59, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

It falls far short of being a reliable source - it's self-published, no reputation for fact-checking or accuracy from third party sources, etc. First Light (talk) 15:27, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

• Well someone needs to inform User:Ryulong that Rangers Central that its an unreliable source because this won't be resolved any other way. 82.25.105.18 (talk) 17:13, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I just looked up the edits in question. The problem there was under external links, not reliable sources. The site shouldn't be used as a reliable source, and it probably shouldn't be linked to in the EL per WP:ELNO #11 - "most fansites, except those written by a recognized authority." — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 17:17, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

• I don't believe Rangers Central is a website published by any recognized "authority." So surely it should be removed. 82.25.105.18 (talk) 17:26, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Seeing as I was blocked for the entirety of this discussion and could not weigh in at all, I would like to point out that in the case of Power Rangers, as well as many other children's television shows which are notable in their own right, there will not be many non-trivial mentions in reliable third-party sources. As such, the only thing that editors of these articles have to get their information from is either directly reporting what happens in the show itself, or relying on self-published fan-created websites. As no one is going to be writing on the unaired pilots of Day of the Dumpster other than the fans, we should use their knowledge, even if it is below Wikipedia's standards of quality.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 18:37, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Please note that WP:FILMPLOT allows you to cite the episode itself as a primary source so long as there's no interpretation or analysis involved. As for citing sources which don't meet Wikipedia's guideline on reliability, you have WP:IAR to fall back on. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:38, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

In this particular case, the fansite was being used as source or at least an external link to show that one of two unaired pilots existed.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 18:29, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

It is still not a reliable source so the information can't be in the article as it cannot be verified. Jezhotwells (talk) 19:26, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

India related articles - Maharashtra, Marathi and Pune

I'm currently in a dispute with other editors regarding content (one line) I would like to include in Maharashtra, Marathi (lead), and Pune. At an early stage in the dispute, the sources I presented were attacked for not being RS. I responded by providing the reasons that qualify them as reliable sources. But since then, despite 2-3 reminders, editors who are opposing my viewpoint have refused to say whether they consider the sources I am presenting as RS. The sources can be found in the table in this section [4] and the entire dispute starts on the same page.[5] I am seeking outside judgment validating or invalidating the sources. Detailed content from one of sources can be found at User:Zuggernaut. Please disregard the first row in the table as that is not being claimed as a RS. Thanks for your help. Zuggernaut (talk) 23:47, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Is website "The Numbers" an appropriate source for film info?

• http://www.the-numbers.com/
  • The website states at the very top of the page, that it is focused on: "Box office data, Movie stars, Idle speculation" (emphasis added)
  • About page does not give much info, other than that the website is run by one individual, "Bruce Nash".
• The source is at issue on the article Knight and Day, regarding insertion of poorly sourced material from multiple suspected IP sock users of Russ.lienart (talk · contribs), please see example edits: [6] and [7]
• If the source is deemed to be unreliable and inappropriate, this insertion of material is then a WP:NOR violation at that article.
• Is website "The Numbers" an appropriate source for film info?

Thank you for your time, -- Cirt (talk) 04:00, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Numbers (website) (2nd nomination). Paul Erik ^{(talk)(contribs)} 04:05, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah yes, thank you for pointing that out. :) -- Cirt (talk) 04:11, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I would say it's good for box office numbers.[8] I haven't seen anything to say it's reliable for other stuff. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 04:27, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I do not think it is even good for box office numbers. Those news links do not yield any helpful information about the website's editorial review or standards for research and/or how it even confirms these purported numbers. Certainly we are in agreement as of yet that the site does not have reliability as far as its commentary or analysis. -- Cirt (talk) 04:32, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I think that other RSs citing their info is one way to establish reliability, and for raw numbers, they seem to be cited quite a bit. I didn't see enough non-trivial sources to establish notability, though. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 06:36, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I prefer to use Box Office Mojo, and I have not really scrutinized The Numbers in the past. This is what I found, though. First, Bruce Nash and The Numbers is referenced on the Wall Street Journal website several times, with this explaining the The Numbers operator after an article about Box Office Mojo: "Bruce Nash, a Los Angeles software designer who spends up to four hours a day updating site with help from two contract assistants." This from The Times apparently considers The Numbers "Hollywood researchers" and quotes Nash a few times in the article. This from MovieMaker says, "Bruce Nash runs The Numbers Website (www.the-numbers.com), which serves up a comprehensive breakdown of weekly, monthly and yearly box office totals. Box office totals for new and old titles are archived all the way back to the heyday of three-strip Technicolor. Nash says that tracking the blockbusters is more science than art these days, with all the focus centered on a movie’s opening weekend." He's then quoted multiple times in that article. On its own, I do not think that The Numbers is that poor of a source. It is worth comparing to Box Office Mojo, though, which I think is more prominent and better staffed.

For comparison's sake, let's compare the websites on some films in the past few years.

• For Batman Begins,

• Box Office Mojo reports $205,343,774 domestic and $167,366,241 foreign
• The Numbers reports $205,343,774 domestic and $167,009,243 foreign

• For The Dark Knight,

• Box Office Mojo reports $533,345,358 domestic and $468,576,467 foreign
• The Numbers reports $533,345,358 domestic and $489,000,000 foreign

Suspecting The Numbers's weakness with foreign numbers, I checked:

• For Pan's Labyrinth,

• Box Office Mojo reports $37,634,615 domestic and $45,623,611 foreign
• The Numbers reports $37,634,615 domestic and $45,600,000 foreign

• Yet another, La Vie en Rose,

• Box Office Mojo reports $10,301,706 domestic and $75,973,087 foreign
• The Numbers reports $10,299,782 domestic and $73,200,000 foreign

With this admittedly small sample, it may be worth assuming that The-Numbers and Box Office Mojo are pretty close when it comes to domestic (United States and Canada) figures. Considering Box Office Mojo's prominence, it may be better staffed than The-Numbers and be able to report overseas grosses more accurately. Its prominence is reflected in a search engine test (in Google News Archive Search) where mention of Box Office Mojo is easily in the thousands, where The Numbers barely reaches 100 with the various keywords I tried. So for Knight and Day, I would recommend Box Office Mojo as a reference instead but still caution that international (outside the United States and Canada) figures for both websites will tend to be estimates until the film's entire theatrical run is complete. In addition, I think The Numbers has a potentially useful difference from Box Office Mojo in having DVD sales figures, where the latter just has DVD rental rankings. Erik (talk | contribs) 14:48, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I've never had any problem with then being used for box office numbers, although as Erik points out there are some small discrepencies which are warning signs we should heed. All things equal Box Office Mojo seems to be more accepted as a reliable source so perhaps should be the default choice in this respect. Just this week I had to correct a budget sourced through The Numbers. The Numbers actually provided sources for this budget, but its own figure didn't match them! It was either entered incorrectly, or updated since without the sources being revised. I've added a lot of budget information and frequently found their figures at odds with those in The New York Times or Variety or whatever. Personally I find it incorrect too often to put complete faith in it, and always feel happy if I find another source to corroborate its information, but that's self-defeating because I don't need The Numbers source then. A useful resource and probably would serve Wikipedia better in the form of an external link. Betty Logan (talk) 15:32, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Erik's and Cirt's points. In my opinion, we should stick with Box Office Mojo whenever we have conflicting data between the two. I would guess that 99% of secondary sources that I have come across cite Box Office Mojo anyway in that regard. If we do decide to drop The-Numbers, we need to reflect that on MOS:FILM because currently it permits editors to use either at their discretion. My main gripe would be that on some articles, I have noticed editors referencing both next to the revenue and simply taking the highest number between the two as the final count. I do not readily agree with this approach due to obvious reasons. DrNegative (talk) 20:21, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I'd stick with Box Office Mojo for the main box office figures, but encourage the use of The Numbers for DVD sales information (at least until BOM adds detailed home media sales/rentals). It's helpful to have multiple sources to cover the box office information, and although we predominately use BOM, Numbers appears reliable for supplementing information BOM does not cover. --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 (talk • contrib) 02:38, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Is Ron Kurtus's School for Champtions a reliable source

See for instance [9] which is used as a source for Antineutron, or [10] which is used in Bicycle and motorcycle dynamics. Kurtus's own information about himself is at [11] and linked pages. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 11:06, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

• Looks like a SPS and as far as I can tell, Kurtus is not a recognised expert. --Cameron Scott (talk) 11:09, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

• Yes, it is a reliable source. For one all the information is factual, for two it's written professionally for educational purposes and has wide recognition. The website lists 90 books from several topics which cites the site as a reference, including ones published by NASA, and won several awards, including ones from the National Science Teachers Association. That the site's pitch ("We want to help you become a champion and achieve your dreams", paraphrased) sounds silly doesn't change the fact that the content is reliable. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 14:54, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

• • Some of those mentions don't actually endorse it. Also, you are saying that Ron Kurtus is a reliable source for articles on mental health, physics, sports, animal health, writing, religion, personal finance, cookware, the list goes on and on. Sorry, but no matter how well he publicises himself, I don't agree. Dougweller (talk) 07:24, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

• • • As much as any other educational website is. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 08:42, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

• Sounds like nothing more than some internet joker with a good PR strategy. What are his academic/professional credentials in each of these subjects? Sounds dubious. I'd say to go for more notable and accredited experts in each of these fields wherever possible. If Kurtus is the only source for a claim, I'd say it's probably either WP:UNDUE, if not WP:FRINGE. If he is not the only source, I'd say to pick a more reliable source, and toss Kurtus. -- Jrtayloriv (talk)

• • Agreed. Something like Antineutron should be sourced from the appropriate journals, etc, not some website like this one. Dougweller (talk) 08:46, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Dosa

is a breakfast eaten in South India for thousands of years. Pat Chapman in his cook book claims Dosa orginated in Udupi, Karnataka. Thangappan Nair, an Indian writer also argues the same in his book.

However, both authors do not attribute their claim. It is also possible Pat Chapman used Thangappan Nair's book as reference. Considering the venerable tradition among Indian writers to document hearsay as history, I am just urging editor User:Gnanapiti to be more careful.

it would be impossible to determine and definitely say Dosa or any traditional Indian food originated anywhere. First, there is no way the first person who made the first Dosa left any evidence behind and/or it is more than likely Dosa evolved from something else which had existed. For these reasons, wikipedia is better served if we attribute the use of the food "Dosa" in some old literature.

I have proposed either the removal of this information or attribute the opinion to the authors and the lack of citations in their book. English food writer Pat Chapman and Indian writer Thangappan Nair argue Dosa originated in Udupi, Karnataka. However, both books do not mention the source of their claim.

Any suggestion will be appreciated. --CarTick 13:08, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I think you're reading too far into the source. The book is published by an actual publisher (i.e. it's not self-published) so the book isn't really required to say "I learned this from X". Saying English food writer Pat Chapman and Indian writer Thangappan Nair argue Dosa originated in Udupi, Karnataka is acceptable; the However, both books do not mention the source of their claim is not. We're not here to challenge the sources, but rather only to state what the sources say. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 15:09, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

changed the text per your suggestion. but, I still disagree with you that being published by a publisher will make it any more reliable than self-published. i also disagree with you that wikipedia editors can not challenge the authenticity of what we choose to add. --CarTick 16:01, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Self-published versus published is one of the key aspects of reliability. If it's published by an publishing company, there's almost always some level of editing and verification done, whereas self-published is the exact opposite. You can challenge the authenticity of sources if there's some reason to do so (e.g. other people have written how the author is full of crap) but in this case, you've got a food writer and another writer coming to the same conclusion. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 18:26, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I will tell you why I think Thangappan Nair whose 2004 book which predates Pat Chapman's 2007 book (so i believe Chapman bases his reference on Thangappan Nair) can not be considered a serious history book. T. Nair categorically says, "Idli (another south Indian food similar to Dosa), Dosa and Rasam all originated in Karnataka in prehistoric times" without any of the nuances you see in this article which reviews the book written by K. T. Achaya

To provide you some context here, steam vessels are required for Idli making. From the article,

“ Indeed, the Chinese chronicler Xuanzang (7th century AD) categorically stated that there were no steaming vessels in India. Achaya writes that the cooks who accompanied the Hindu Kings of Indonesia between 800-1200 AD, brought fermentation and steaming methods and their dish Kedli to South India ”

so, how did south indians make Idli if they didnt have steaming vessels?

please compare the nuanced writings of A. T. Acharya with absoluteness of T. Nair. besides, the weasel word prehistoric is generally used by fake historians who hasnt done their research well.

If my words carry any weight, I have never heard of T. Nair being an Indian historian let alone authoritative. --CarTick 23:35, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I'll back up Annyong here, and I'll be even more direct. Wikipedia articles cannot contain editors' personal challenges of the reliability of what we choose to add. Our words, the editors' words, do not carry enough weight to go into articles. Only the words of the sources we cite do. We personally are effectively anonymous and have no credentials, no matter how right we might be. If you can find another published author that disagrees with Nair, we can say "Nair writes X, but Professor Jane Doe writes Y" ... but we can't write "Nair writes X, but an anonymous Wikipedia contributor writes Y", even though, of course, the anonymous Wikipedia contributor might be right. If you are convinced that Nair is wrong, go find a published reliable source that says so, and we'll be able to add that challenge to the article, but we can't challenge without that. --GRuban (talk) 15:57, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

could someone comment on the :reliability of my sources

• I am having issues with other Deleting (vandalising) my Edits , I think I have followed all Wiki rules.
• I used the same sources and website used in another Wiki Article link there were no issues on this wiki page Using the same sources and format!
• The Edits in Question link thank you!!
• Also how does one attract more people for a Census ? Thank you --Kimmy (talk) 17:27, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I would be suspicious of the source. It looks like SPS. Try looking thru this lot http://www.google.co.uk/search?tbs=bks:1,bkv:a&tbo=p&q=black+slave+owners+in+the+USA.Slatersteven (talk) 17:34, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

• thank you SLater - However please take notice I used the same source and Website and format as another above mention wiki page -

Can we only Use Google Book Review / Sales ,the website I use is a book Review ????? --Kimmy (talk) 17:53, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Who is Robert M. Grooms by the way ? Sean.hoyland - talk 17:57, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

• Sean Grooms is an Author on Civil war and Slavery -

Is this a better source link --Kimmy (talk) 18:03, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

What we would need is the origianl magazine articel. Also your new source clarly akes this material form your old source.Slatersteven (talk) 18:06, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I meant who is he as in what are his qualifications, is he an academic etc. The Barnes Review seems to publish some pretty controversial material having looked at some of the issues in which Grooms work has been published. I would be surprised if they were regarded as an RS. A reprint at seanbryson.com doesn't change anything. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:13, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Slater that is because the source I listed is the original "Book Review" form Robert M. Grooms - The same Review is used In another Wiki page exactly how I used it link .

• Robert M. Grooms is a Author and journalist that writes for the THE BARNES REVIEW . does controversial material Excludes anything ?
• In any case I have read the books he uses for his Article should I just Omit his comment and use the Foot notes and the facts from the books ?  ? -
• Applying this standard does this same make this Wiki page incorrectly sourced link this wiki page uses the exact same website and source ? thank you --Kimmy (talk) 18:34, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Please see WP:INDENT. It will make the discussion easier to follow. A citation being used in another article doesn't tell you anything about its reliability. I would say that citation needs to be removed from the William Ellison article and replaced. Sources are unreliable by default. Is there any evidence that the or Grooms are reliable for anything ? The Barnes Review doesn't appear to have been raised here at RSN before although it is mentioned here where someone describes it as an extremist site. It does seem to fit into the questionable sources category. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:44, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

• I can find the same books on Google books -
• Because Barnes Review differs from google book review - does this make it extremist site ?
• Since grooms is Alive I would say that would border on Slander with out any proof , Just because an Opinion is one we do not share , does this make it an extremist view point ?
• That is why I Used the words According too .
• Also on the other wiki page that uses the exact same website and Author If you took out his citations you would have to delete the page unless someone rewrote the whole page ?
• I have Read the books should I just include the information with out Barnes Review ?

Sorry this is hard as the truth is hardly main steam thinking in this case - - Thank you --Kimmy (talk) 18:59, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Did you read WP:INDENT yet ? Can you provide a reliable source that says who Grooms is ? You aren't a reliable source. A wiki editor describing the Barnes Review as an extremist site is slander ? I think not. Someone will have to rewrite the whole William Ellison page then if that is what is needed. WP:V compliance is mandatory and I see no evidence that either the Barnes Review or Grooms are reliable sources. Can you present that evidence based on WP:RS ? Sean.hoyland - talk 19:12, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

It is Strange how "Daivd Duke" pops up on Google with Grooms - You are correct "Grooms" is A ghost ? I did read the books he list though - They are good works - Thank you --Kimmy (talk) 19:44, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Kimmy, I am finding some of your comments difficult to make sense of, but I think your statement "It is Strange how Daivd Duke pops up on Google with Grooms" tells me what I need to know. Grooms appears to be a person without established notability whose work has been published, as far as we know, only in a far-right magazine dedicated to historical revisionism and on some personal websites which appear to be far-right and/or white supremacist in nature. In short, the work does not appear to come from a publisher "with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", as required by WP:RS, so it is not reliable an cannot be used. --FormerIP (talk) 19:52, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for taking your time - Great detective work - Grooms, uses good Literary works to Justify his Article - Got you - Thank you --Kimmy (talk) 20:00, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

• Barnes_Review Grooms does write for them ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnes_Review

"Barnes_Review, Willis Allison Carto (July 17, 1926) is a longtime figure on the American far right. He describes himself as Jeffersonian and populist, but is primarily known for his promotion of antisemitic conspiracy theories and Holocaust denial

--Kimmy (talk) 20:15, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Grooms does appear to have written for them, yes. There is a scan of one of his articles I found on a neo-nazi site, but I am not going to link to it. What is more, there doesn't seem to be any evidence of him being published other than by this magazine, at least not under the same name. --FormerIP (talk) 20:19, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

The Barnes Review - sourcewatch link --Kimmy (talk) 20:25, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Good, so I guess we're done here, then. --FormerIP (talk) 20:27, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

• Yes Sir! thank you!
• Except the ,Wiki page, I list that uses him for a source And how many others wiki pages use him ? *Thank you
• Now I have to start all over on my school paper - --Kimmy (talk) 20:32, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Second Commandment

Dear ladies, dear Sirs,

I have been blocked in the Ten Commandments article because my analysis of the 2nd Commmandment did not appear authorized enough with a pubication by Salem-News (Oregon internet press), another by the Editor of the British medical journal as an e-letter, and, eventually, a lecture given in the University of Keele (RU). I'm coming back with the support of one of the greatest modern scholars of the Bible: Professor Thomas Römer (Chair Biblical circles of the Collège de France, the highest academic French institution) who wrote me (http://intact.wikia.com/wiki/File:R%C3%B6mer.jpg):

"..., you are right asserting that Gn 17 presents another vision of circumcision than Gn 15 or the Deuteronomy. The "lay" writers were apparently less interested by this practice, and even opposed to it. The expression "circumcision of the heart" could even contain a polemic stand against "circumcision of the flesh."

Will this be enough to support my thesis inside the article Ten Commandments? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.202.136.139 (talk) 15:15, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Probably not. Personal letters and e-mails are generally not acceptable as sources. See the Reliable Sources page for examples of what is or is not a reliable source. Your example posted on a wikia site would not meet the criteria. Ravensfire (talk) 21:27, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Professor Römer may be willing to provide you with relevant scholarly published literature on the issue if you ask him again nicely. Then the significance of your views can be verified. Paul B (talk) 16:39, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I have understood correctly, but this may be an RS for the same information (pp 138-9): [12] --FormerIP (talk) 16:57, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Page numbers

I'm having a conversation with an editor who is trying to bring an article to GA status. He or she admits to removing references from the article if they don't have page numbers. I would contend that, since books generally have an index in which the reader can run down a pageless references, removing a ref from a reliable source simply because it does not have a page number is not improving an article but harming it. The editor points to WP:V#Burden of evidence as his justification. It does indeed say that references should have page numbers where appropriate, but my feeling is that a good, legitimate partial ref is better than no ref at all. Could I get some opinions on this? Thanks. Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:43, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I fail to see why providing page numbers should be a problom. Ple explain why page numbers arnt availible.Slatersteven (talk) 12:57, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

That would be a question for whomever put the ref in, and is rather beside the point, which is that working on an article as found is it legitimate to remove a reference simply because it doesn't include page numbers? Obviously, if one has access to the source, one should look up the ref and add the page number, and if one knows who added the ref, they can be asked to provide the numbers, but if those options fail, and the reference remains without page numbers, is it a good idea to remove the ref, because it is not complete to the ideal extent? Beyond My Ken (talk) 13:19, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Can we have an example of such as source? Also I would argue that if its a GAn then it would realy have to obey the rules on sourceing. I would say (as I have now looked at the edit in question) that Yes it is resonable to remove poor sourcing from a GAN. The fact it does not have page numbers (and looks a bit confused, it seems to be refering to two sources so may be synthatsis) I would say that without a page number (or I should say page numbers) are needed. Slatersteven (talk) 13:34, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

So, if I'm understanding you correctly, if an article has a reference which says, for instance, "Dumbroski, Albert. Cucumbers of Northern Australia Cambridge: Notlob Press, 1976.", which tells us where the information cited came from, it improves the article to remove the reference because it doesn't indicate any page numbers, despite the fact that the article now presents to the reader no source for the information? That seems counter-intuitive to me, and goes against the general principle that we don't remove material because it is badly formatted. Since the vast majority of references on Wikipedia that could have page numbers do not have them, you would seem to be advocating denuding the project of a considerable amount of its refs. I don't see that as a productive interpretation of policy. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:03, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Where the source is a book, I would say it generally is okay to remove material that is sourced without page numbers, because this material is not properly verifiable. There might be an issue where the result is to make nonsense of the article, but since the editor is aiming for GA this doesn't seem like it applies here. So I think they are behaving properly. --FormerIP (talk) 14:06, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

(after reading the last comment) If they are removing the reference but not the information is supports then no, this would not be improving the article. They should remove both or neither. --FormerIP (talk) 14:07, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

My argument would be the opposite - if such a reference is removed, it is then impossible for me to find the book and determine which pages should be included, and then to update the reference. We assume that the editor adding the reference has verified that the source does indeed back the statement, even without page numbers - unless the information is questioned, that should be sufficient. Now, including no reference? Different story. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 14:39, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

But the editor is trying for GA. An article that cites books without page numbers shouldn't pass GA, so the editor has a few choices. Either find the page numbers, find alternative sourcing or remove the relevant material. If they are removing the cites but not the material then not only are they not improving the article, but it also probably won't pass GA anyway because it will be insufficiently sourced. --FormerIP (talk) 15:46, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

One should only meet a GA standard by improving an article, not by removing stuff that's useful, informative and legitimate but doesn't happen to meet GA standards. If an article has legit refs without page numbers, and the page numbers can't be found, then the article just can't be brought to GA status at that time. (There's nothing wrong with that, most of our articles will never be GAs, including many that are fine, useful articles.) Removing deficient refs isn't fixing the article, it's simply hiding the warts so no one will see them.

Our goal should be to have our articles be as useful as possible to the reader. To the extent that bringing articles to GA status helps to achieve that goal, it's a good thing, but if making an article a GA starts to actually decrease the usefullness of the article by removing stuff that's deficient but still of value, then the intermediate goal of reaching GA has started to get in the way of the ultimate goal, and that's a problem. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:23, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Bitterlemons.org website

There is a small dispute ongoing in Talk:Israel and the apartheid analogy whether this article http://www.bitterlemons.org/previous/bl281002ed39.html should be used as a source for material in the article. I'm tending to the negative, since this appears to be a website dedicated to publishing opinion pieces, without peer review or editorial control of content. The pieces are probably OK as indications on the authors' opinion, but in my opinion they shouldn't be used as indications that the viewpoints have representation in WP:RS, which is done to assess whether including the viewpoints are WP:UNDUE. My view would be that the viewpoint should be covered also in WP:RS with editorial control in order for it's inclusion to not be WP:UNDUE. An exception might be if the author is very highly thought of in the field. Comments from others? --Dailycare (talk) 15:31, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Hustler magazine as a source

Okay, I'm in a dispute over a link and I want to bring it up to the larger community. The specific link in question is this one:

http://www.hustlermagazine.com/features/band-interviews/wendy-lisa-women-of-the-revolution

This link is being used as source for the article on Lisa Coleman (musician), specificly for this statement: "Coleman introduced her girlfriend Wendy Melvoin". It has been removed by User:Hullaballoo Wolfowitz on the grounds that it is not a reliable source. I contend that it is a reliable source in that it is clearly an interview done with the people in question. Additionally, the website has a number of other interviews with bands.

And just to be upfront, the only other debate I could find to Hustler magazine as a source was Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 24#Hustler magazine a reliable source for World Affairs? where the debate (to my eyes) ended up as no decision.

So... what does the community in general think? Tabercil (talk) 18:15, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

"Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" There is no indication that Hustler has a reputation for fact-checking or accuracy, particularly as required for sourcing a BLP (and this discussion would be better served at BLPN). Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 18:38, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

What part of the Hustler article backs up the statement "introduced her girlfriend Wendy Melvoin"? Are you citing it to show that Melvoin was Coleman's girlfriend, or that she was introduced, or what? — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 18:42, 24 August 2010 (UTC)