Talk:Taiwan

Agreement

I agree the motion to move this article to Taiwan. Republic of China is the official government name of Taiwan. Aamuizz (talk) 12:18, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't agree with the move. Other editors don't either. There is no consensus for change. 86.41.2.94 (talk) 17:46, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Consensus does not equal unanimity. It is about broad agreement, based on policy. One or two editors trying to veto by saying they do not like something or other that has been proposed doesn't count for much I'm afraid. N-HH talk/edits 19:07, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

It's clear at the moment that there are a number of vocal editors on either side of this issue - this is not consensus. It may eventually come down to polling as did the naming of Republic of Ireland (not a brilliant solution). It would be nice if consensus could be achieved, but I worry that we'll simply fall into a war of attrition, with the "winners" being those who don't lose interest/patience first. To be honest, there's a handful of arguments for each position that have to be weighed against each other, and most of the discussion is a series of rehashings of those arguments. I'm not that optimistic, but I think we could help ourselves a lot by adding some structure to the debate environment. LukeSurl ^{t c} 00:07, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

The problem around Taiwan and China are a lot more difficult than Ireland. Ireland is English-speaking and most of the people who vote know sufficiently about the then and now about the island. This isn't the case for Taiwan and China. 203.145.92.208 (talk) 20:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

From when on did "Taiwan" become a common name for the whole of the ROC? 203.145.92.208 (talk) 20:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

As with anything that changes in a natural fashion over time, precise dates can't be pinpointed. Nevertheless, there is clear evidence that right now (and right now is what matters for this article title) the common name for this country in English-speaking sources is Taiwan. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 21:59, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

In that case shall we go on to say in this article that "Taiwan, officially the Republic of China, is a republic in East Asia established in 1912 with Dr Sun Yat Sen as its founding provisional president." and "Taiwan was a founding member of the UN and a permanent member of the UN Security Council until 1971, when its UN membership was replaced by the People's Republic of China."? 218.250.159.25 (talk) 17:40, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

No, which has been made clear throughout this conversation. CMD (talk) 18:06, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

That's bring us back to the same question. From when on did Taiwan become a common name for the ROC? From when on did the ROC become Taiwanese and no longer Chinese?

Don't know. It's not important at all for the naming of this page. Prose, which has the room to explain, will handle it fine. CMD (talk) 18:37, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Some editors here are proposing to rewrite these few articles and to remove the pre-1945 part of the ROC from this article. If you can't name a date it's basically impossible to do the rewrite and removal. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 18:53, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

A date for content is different from a date for when Taiwan became synonymous with the ROC. CMD (talk) 20:38, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

So are you suggesting 1945 to be the cut off date for content? This may potentially be non-neutral. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 21:33, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

The cut off date for what? Everything is potentially non-neutral, which is the whole point of COMMONNAME. I'm glad you now understand. CMD (talk) 21:41, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

If there's a more neutral way, why not? 218.250.159.25 (talk) 21:52, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Again, it is pretty obvious there is no consensus for this sort of change....it all smacks of politics to me any way. 86.41.2.94 (talk) 11:14, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

IMHO, There is no need for the move. This article is about the Government in Exile, or Rump State (depending on your opinion), of the Republic of China. There is already a separate article about the island of Taiwan.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 01:34, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

But the point is that we should really, per the rest of the world, be referring to that rump state as "Taiwan". That's the problem - the article about the island has "taken" the name Taiwan, even though Taiwan refers usually to the state as a whole and not simply the island (see Madagascar); and the article that is primarily looking at the modern state (with backstory), ie this one, is currently living under name "Republic of China", which no one really uses for that state in 2012. History of the Republic of China, Government of the Republic of China and associated historical articles can cover and explain the politics and history of all this. WP:COMMONNAME is the key when it comes to the simple question of what we call this article and how we refer to this entity in contemporary accounts. N-HH talk/edits 11:31, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Do Madagascar, Iceland, Sri Lanka and the like have the same path of history that their main islands at present weren't part of them years ago? Does any of them have any island that is not associated to its main island? 218.250.159.25 (talk) 22:14, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

For the record, consider these: Category:Islands of Madagascar, Category:Islands of Iceland, Category:Islands of Sri Lanka. Their main islands all have the same name as their country; just like the main island of the modern country Taiwan.

As CMD says, there is nothing stopping us from including some information about the beginning of the Republic of China, as it was in the early 1900's, since this information is clearly related to the modern entity (which one might call a "country", for short) of Taiwan. WP:CONCEPTDAB suggests to me that, in a case like this, an article titled "Taiwan" should be about the broad concept; there is no need to be overly precise in the article's scope. Mlm42 (talk) 01:42, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree that the article for this country (or rump state) should focus more on the landmasses that are now administered from Taipei. But it doesn't change the fact this country hasn't yet been superseded by Taiwan or a Taiwanese state. At some point it's closed to, but it hasn't yet reached that stage. For instance, it hasn't got its constitution replaced or substantially redrafted, its flag and its coat of arms replaced, nor has it got any diplomatic recognition as Taiwan. I based my position on these facts. I remain firmly open to change the title of this Wikipedia article when that stage is eventually reached. (And, for the record, I actually want that to happen.)

On comparison with other island countries - The ROC isn't comparable because the islands on the coast of Fujian and in the South China Sea aren't part of Taiwan. Iceland, Sri Lanka, Madagascar, etc., got no similar situation. It's a little bit like Monmouthshire before the 1970s, that it was treated as one with Wales, rather than part of Wales until the Welsh Language Act of 1967 or the Local Government Act of 1972. Monmouthshire was once unambiguously defined to be part of England but a large number of legislations apply to Wales and Monmouthshire, and as a result commonly though not legally considered part of Wales. I'd love to see these islands being re-defined by the ROC as part of Taiwan, but, again, as long as that hasn't been done, they remain not part of Taiwan in reality. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 06:38, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

I think I'm beginning to understand your position; you appear to be waiting for an explicit piece of legislation, or something, that would declare some unambiguous statement like "Kinmen is part of Taiwan", and without that, we can't go forward.. is that correct? The problem with that reasoning, is that with don't need to unilaterally declare something like this before we change article titles. Explaining those sorts of details can always be done in the text, regardless of the title. Does that clear things up? Mlm42 (talk) 20:35, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Not necessarily as much as a piece of legislation. General acceptance will be fine. The problem is that Kinmennese and Matsuese people don't considered themselves Taiwanese in strict sense.., and they didn't have the same experience as a result of Japanese rule. The Japanese didn't leave any fingerprint there as they did on Taiwan (including the Pescadores). The Matsuese (and people from Wuchiu too) don't even speak the same native languages as the Taiwanese people do. The de facto US embassy, the AIT, don't let applicants from Kinmen to fill in Taiwan as their country of nationality in their visa applications. Some Taiwan independence supporters call for pulling out the armed force from these islands, and these islands don't appear on the proposed flag for independent Taiwan. Furthermore, ROC ≠ Taiwan isn't only about these islands, but also about its laws, constitution, state organs, flag, coat of arms, monuments, and so on. And as a matter of geography these islands are in no way similar to the islands of Malta, Iceland, Cuba, Jamaica, Sri Lanka or Madagascar. They are politically part of the ROC but not geographically part of Taiwan. We really haven't reached that point yet to equate Taiwan and the ROC, and to call those islands Taiwanese (although my very personal position is that I want it to happen as soon as possible). 218.250.159.25 (talk) 22:17, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

You're looking for a rather universal acceptance, rather than a general one. What is the strict sense of being Taiwanese? In the English language, this means being from the country of Taiwan, which all these islands are part of. This isn't about a new government system replacing the ROC, or new laws redefining it, or a redefining of geographical terms. Taiwan, as the country is most commonly called in English, geographically includes all these islands. Taiwan has a political system, laws, constitution, state symbols, etc., that came with the government when it took over in 1945 and when it moved there in 1949. This is generally accepted. CMD (talk) 22:33, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Not necessarily universal. But your approach is effectively (well, better say potentially) imposing an exonym onto people who don't identify themselves with it. When we talk about Taiwan in English, these islands are unimportant and it's difficult to conclude whether these islands are included or excluded. But it's like by common sense few people would agree that Hawaii became geographically part of North America at the time when it became politically part of the US in 1898 or 1959, these islands don't become geographically part of Taiwan just because they are politically ruled from Taiwan. The political system, laws, symbols of the ROC have all remained Republic of China's instead of Taiwan's. Supporters of Taiwan independence call for their replacement. Former president Chen actually took the very first steps to remove the word "China" or "Chunghwa" from some of the institutions and state-owned companies, and to rename some of the monuments associated with the ROC. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 23:07, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Your argument is flawed as it doesn't take Taiwan to be the name of the country. You argue the territories are not "geographically" part of Taiwan. I don't think it's common to refer to areas as geographically part of countries. They are part of the country, or they aren't (or they're disputed, but this has nothing to do with geography). If we do use this terminology, would you agree that Hawaii is geographically part of the United States? It's the same as saying that Kinmen is geographically part of Taiwan. CMD (talk) 23:37, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

All very interesting IP, but none of these points are relevant to the article title issue, which is not about pure geography or about outlying islands and their status or identity. Nor is it about having to wait until the "Republic of China" becomes "Taiwan" in some purportedly fundamental or substantive sense. The basic, broad meaning of "Taiwan" is pretty clear by common usage and common definition in 99% of serious real-world sources in 2012; as it is pretty clear that ROC is barely used at all when referring to the thing that is the subject of this article, with its country template and categories and all. Stop dragging in these academic - in the pejorative sense - and tangential points. N-HH talk/edits 23:47, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

The fundamental problem is that this country hasn't yet become Taiwan. It isn't only about how it is called, but also what it actually is. On Wikipedia we aren't dealing with only one article. We have to work on other related articles too. There are many articles around other more in-depth topics related to the ROC and Taiwan. We have to be consistent with our nomenclature. We are not here to introduce confusions. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 12:58, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

The United States is a country. Taiwan isn't a country. Kinmen is part of the ROC. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 12:58, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

To refute a claim about Kinmen, consider the google searches: "Kinmen, Taiwan" (~126,000 hits) and "Kinmen, Republic of China" (~8,000 hits). So it's not Wikipedia who is trying to "impose" anything on anyone; we are just trying to reflect actual usage. As this discussion unfolds, it becomes more and more clear that the current article titles do not reflect actual usage. Mlm42 (talk) 00:16, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Or consider that the US state dept's country profile on - guess what they call it - "Taiwan" explicitly states: "The authorities in Taipei exercise control over Taiwan, Kinmen, Matsu, Penghu (Pescadores) and several other smaller islands"; or that the CIA profile explicitly includes Kinmen as part - indeed a county - of Taiwan; or that the New York Times does so too, at least in this sample feature. First, this point is indeed marginal when it comes to the basic, broad issue of article title; secondly, it doesn't even work in the IP/sock's favour anyway if we look at what appears to be common usage and definitions. And no, "the world being biased/confused" is not sufficent argument to refute that. N-HH talk/edits 01:19, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

The US is using "Taiwan" as a euphemism for "Republic of China", since they cannot actually use that name at all. It has been for decades that the media follow the same nomenclature. There may be some historical or practical reasons (they simply can't decode every single time when officials talk about the ROC). But it doesn't mean that the ROC has already become a Taiwanese state. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 12:58, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

The New York Times feature story didn't even touch on the fact that Kinmen has never been part of Taiwan, it wasn't part of the Japanese colony, and it hasn't been part of Taiwan Province of any Chinese state. It only put in vaguely "The people of Kinmen consider themselves culturally closer to the nearby mainland province of Fujian than to Taiwan". That's indeed a problem that newspapers or the media in general can never go too much into the details. They aren't an encyclopedia like Wikipedia. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 13:46, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

It isn't only about what it is called, but also what it actually is. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 12:58, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

The article about the government (in exile) is Government of the Republic of China. This article is about the (rump) state, which is known as Taiwan. CMD (talk) 13:11, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Summarize issues on both sides

Can make separate statements in this section summarizing their arguments? That will make it easier for unacquainted editors to take a stand on the discussed issues. Right now, looking at the mass of text above, it's practically impossible to make head or tail out of it unless one decides to read every line of text. Thank you. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 17:18, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Republic of China should be re-named and moved to Taiwan

• Common name of the ROC is "Taiwan".
• Taiwan has in English become associated very closely with the state, and no evidence has been produced showing that discussion of the island is separated from the state of which it makes up basically all of. A clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC.
• WP:CONCEPTDAB suggests that the "Taiwan" article should cover the broad concept, which includes - but is not limited to - the main island.
• A google search from "Kinmen, Taiwan" has orders of magnitude more hits than "Kinmen, Fujian" or "Kinmen, Republic of China"; and Kinmen is clearly not part of the main island.
• There is potential confusion, for unfamiliar readers, between "Republic of China" and the "People's Republic of China"
• The concepts of ROC and Taiwan are not identical, so some content would need to change after a move; but that is not a problem, since this work has mostly been done already in userspace.

Republic of China should not be re-named and moved to Taiwan

• The ROC is not the clear primary topic for the term "Taiwan", which often clearly refers to just the island.
• The ROC's continued control of Kinmen, Matsu, and Wuciou as part of its own province of Fujian (which is in turn controlled mostly by the PRC) legitimises the name "ROC". In addition, a Google search for "Kinmen, Fujian" (without quotes) returns about the same number of results as "Kinmen, Taiwan" (without quotes).

I don't think Pratas and Itu Aba are part of Taiwan by any sense of the word, except for its usage as the euphemism of "Republic of China". 218.250.159.25 (talk) 20:48, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Added a few links to the above. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 22:43, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

• The ROC has not controlled Taiwan for all its existence—the history of the two do not neatly coincide.
• Confusability with People's Republic of China can be dealt with via a {{distinguish}} hatnote.
• Incoming links can be fixed and patrolled with Taiwan being a disambiguation page, and readers who type in the URL bar can be navigated by redirects and disambiguation pages.

Thank you for summarizing the issues, Renmin. As I see it, there are generally three proposals for change at this point of time: (i) move Taiwan (disambiguation) to Taiwan, (ii) move Taiwan to Taiwan (island) and (iii) move Republic of China to Taiwan. Can we have a single RfC for this on a single page? If this RfC is well-organized, we will have better chances of finding out which direction consensus sways. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 18:59, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Did GotR and Cybercobra sign their comment?[1][2] 218.250.159.25 (talk) 20:20, 6 February 2012 (UTC) 20:45, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

It seemed implied that the sections are intended to be collaborative. --Cybercobra (talk) 21:12, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

My impression is those proposing moves are in favour of combinations: either (i)+(ii) or (ii)+(iii). A third kind of change is a merge: a single article at "Taiwan" covering all aspects of the country, from its politics to its geography, like every other country article on Wikipedia. Kanguole 23:10, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

China should be re-named to People's Republic of China; Republic of China and Taiwan (Island) article will not change.

• The English word "China" spans 3 different states, each ruled by different governments (and ethnicities). 1 has disappeared, while 2 remain. Using "Qing Dynasty" (the Qing Dynasty of China fought against Great Britain during the Opium Wars), "Republic of China" (the Republic of China fought with the Allied forces against the Axis forces) and "People's Republic of China" (the People's Republic of China supported North Korea during the Korean War) will ameliorate the discussion when speaking both historically and politically and in more current terms. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.46.140 (talk) 19:30, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

And there should be an article on China as a geographical region. That article was moved to Chinese civilisation, with its content almost entirely removed. The content should be restored. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 20:20, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Discussion about summary

My position is to:

• Retain Republic of China as it is, and expand its coverage on the history and geography of all of its existing landmasses, including those outside of Taiwan,
• Move Taiwan (the island article) to Taiwan (island),
• Move Taiwan (disambiguation) to Taiwan,
• Move China to People's Republic of China, and further summarise its pre-1949 history,
• Move China (disambiguation) to China, and
• Move Chinese civilisation to China (region), China (cultural region) or China (geographical region), and restore the deleted content.

218.250.159.25 (talk) 20:20, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the pre-1949 history for the People's Republc of China; they existed just as the United States existed as the Continental Congress before the establishment of the USA. Also, the current "China" article makes it look as though the Republic of China ceased to exist in 1949. Renaming ROC -> Taiwan would only serve to incorrectly reinforce that confusion.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.174.144 (talk • contribs)

Agree. As a matter of international personality the present ROC is the continuation of the same ROC founded in 1912 (or at the very least, in 1928). 218.250.159.25 (talk) 22:14, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

For Nearly Headless Nick and any other new users, a new move request is due to be submitted quite soon, where the arguments will no doubt be presented fresh. CMD (talk) 21:23, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm very glad we have this, it might help everyone understand what's going on, because we have everyone all over the place with no organization. And yes, Chipmunkdavis is correct, my Taiwan article thing that I started back in December is preparing an RM to go along with the 1st opinion: Move ROC to Taiwan. Jpech95 22:10, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I, for one, oppose any move of this article: the Republic of China is far more than Taiwan Province and its name here on WP should reflect that. I smell politics in all of this. 86.45.54.230 (talk) 19:33, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

You've said this before, yes. Was there anything you wanted to add or are you just re-stating your position? There will be an opportunity to voice your concerns on Jpech95's proposal specifically when it is formally put forward, which doesn't appear to have happened yet. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 22:51, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks TechnoSymbosis - Glad you understand where I am coming from. Well, specifically, I would like to ask about what this bit of the proposal means:

"* Move China to People's Republic of China, and further summarise its pre-1949 history,

• Move China (disambiguation) to China..."

If China is at PRC, how can China (dab) be at China? I'm sure some one can explain.

Separately, the last bit of the proposal:

"* Move Chinese civilisation to China (region), China (cultural region) or China (geographical region), and restore the deleted content."

Does this proposal mean that the article will no longer be about the Chinese civilisation? If that is not what is proposed, I can't see the sense in changing the name of the article if it is about Chinese civilisation. 86.45.54.230 (talk) 23:58, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

You'd have to ask 218.* about that, the moves mentioned above are his suggestion. I believe what he wants is for everything to go back to the way it was before our article on People's Republic of China was moved to China, with WP:COMMONNAME as a strongly cited reason. The desire of some of us to move Republic of China to Taiwan is in line with the already-performed PRC->China move. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 00:04, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

That article wasn't just about "Chinese civilisation" before it was axed. It was an article about China as a geographical-cultural region. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 22:14, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure if the above was a response for me (if it was, thanks but it did not answer the small technical questions I asked). I absolutely oppose any move of the ROC article. The notion that it is justified on "COMMONAME" grounds is misguided. The Republic of China is far more than just Taiwan Province. The proposal ignores that. 86.45.54.230 (talk) 11:10, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Does this "far more" have an area of 180.1 sq km and a population of 74,050? Kanguole 11:36, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

BTW some countries in the world even smaller then this different...C933103 (talk) 17:07, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Taiwan Province of the Republic of China (in dark grey)

Another map of the Taiwan Province of the ROC (in red) - See the dotted lines on the other side of the Taiwan Strait for (from north to south) the Matsu Islands, Wuchiu, and Quemoy; Pratas and Itu Aba are too far away to be shown.

"an area of 180.1 sq km and a population of 74,050" - As at 2012 ROC's Taiwan Province covers only about 70% of landmasses of the Taiwanese archipelago and about 40% of the population there. Even before 2010, Taipei and Kaohsiung, each with more than a million people, weren't part of Taiwan Province.[3] Please.. please don't pretend you know the meaning of Taiwan Province while you actually don't. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 22:14, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree. I suppose the next step for pro-PRC editors will be to get rid of all the articles that show that the Republic of China claims the Mainland as part of their territory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.78.140 (talk) 16:43, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

The main proposal people are pushing for is not predicated on the Republic of China constituting Taiwan province and no more, but on the simple and incontestable fact that the common name for the modern state centred on Taiwan island (and officially and historically known as "ROC") is, in 2012, "Taiwan". We - along with every serious real-world source including the US State Dept, UK FCO, BBC, Britannica etc etc - all know that it includes other minor islands and territories, that there is history in respect of the name(s) and that there is a complicated relationship with mainland China/the PRC. As previous discussion makes clear. N-HH talk/edits 15:07, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

But wouldn't this renaming drawn attentions of readers who want to find information about the Taiwan island to the politic body? As in the case, would it be better to let the Taiwan be a disambiguation page which people can choose to redirect to Taiwan (island) or Taiwan (country)? But if it is to be called as [[Taiwan (country)], would it be simpler to call it as Republic of China? C933103 (talk) 17:07, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Readers would find out just as much about the island hitting the state page, as the difference between the two is minimal and not significantly mentioned in either page. Also, there'd be a hatnote, like there is now, so same number of clicks for them, but with the possibility of getting the information they need anyway, and with the majority of users getting straight to the page they want. CMD (talk) 17:19, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd bet most readers reach this country article through wikilinks. With Taiwan being a disambiguation page incoming links can all be fixed and patrolled. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 22:14, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

@Chipumnkdavis, If it is the case then why there are two different articles?C933103 (talk) 18:04, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

A user decided to split the topics for whatever reason deep in the depths of wikipedia history. That is no reason the situation can't be changed now. CMD (talk) 03:06, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Re C933103: Yes. And Taiwan (country) is already a redirect that faithfully and dutifully brings readers to the article that they look for. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 18:32, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I for one oppose moving "Republic of China" to Taiwan. The "Republic of China" is far more than just Taiwan Province - and, for clarity, I am not just referring to ROC held islands outside the area of the "traditional Taiwan Province" or "contemporary ROC defined Taiwan Province". I am speaking of much bigger things. Any one who has ever visited Taipei will likely have been impressed by the CKS memorial there. Wouldn't it indeed be a monument well out of place if this was merely Taiwan. But it is not merely in Taiwan. It is in the Republic of China. That and so much more is the difference. You would be misleading readers if you were to rename the ROC article "Taiwan". Again, the "Republci of China" is far more than merely Taiwan Province. I support no further change to article names. 86.45.54.230 (talk) 11:32, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Common usage says "Taiwan" is the whole country. Last night I heard three separate TV programs from three different countries use that terminology. Politically motivated pedants, with no interest in making Wikipedia a truly accessible place are making this area a backwater. I withdrew from discussion here some days ago because of the ongoing obstinacy of this stubborn cluster of confusing IP editors who don't care how stupid this makes Wikipedia look. They just want to keep fighting old political battles. Having restated my position, I will probably again withdraw for some time. This is not a healthy area of Wikipedia.— Preceding unsigned comment added by HiLo48 (talk • contribs) 11:40, 10 February 2012‎ (UTC)

Accessibility should not supercede accuracy. Most sources in the world use "Taiwan" because they bow to either political (CIA World Factbook) or economic (businesses and publications around the world that wish to do business in the PRC) pressure from the PRC. As a truly FREE and OPEN encyclopedia, Wikipedia does not have to bow to pressure either political or economic (this place gets its money from donations). We have a singular opportunity here at Wikipedia, we can do this better and more accurately than any other source in the world, whether the Encyclopedia Britannica or the CIA World Factbook; we are free from political pressure and we are open to all without costing anybody a thing; we are and can be beholden to no government nor business. We can be accurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.174.144 (talk • contribs) 14:25, 10 February 2012‎ (UTC)

Bowing to pressure. You start off from the false premise that they would prefer to use the term "Republic of China". What political or economic pressure is Encyclopaedia Britannica bowing to? Also, accuracy is a non-argument. Terms have the meanings they are given. Here and now, Taiwan has the meaning of the state. That makes it as accurate as any other name. CMD (talk) 17:23, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Some sources are obliged to follow the official positions or even legislations of their respective countries (e.g. the CIA World Factbook). Some sources got economic or business considerations. But I'd rather say in that process most sources simply yield to the predominantly common usage so as to avoid the need to "decode" or "translate" the euphemisms that government officials and politicians say. After then the ROC government under a pro-independence party does so as part of its effort to desinicise itself. It's politically and practically difficult for the KMT government that followed to re-sinicise everything, although they actually acted to undo what its predecessor had done. Anyhow, you'd be impressed when you look for Taiwanese products (particularly electronic products) at home or in a Walmart (or even food products in Chinatowns) and found that many of these products are marked "Made in Taiwan, R.O.C.", even 60+ years after 1949. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 18:32, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Re HiLo48: "is the whole country" - Do they specifically and explicitly include the non-Taiwan parts of the contemporary republic? If not, it probably doesn't matter whether they identify it as Taiwan or as ROC. It simply doesn't make any difference at all in those contexts. But anyhow this country as a whole isn't going to be Taiwan unless its government gives up the non-Taiwan parts (or explicitly and statutorily defines the non-Taiwan parts to be Taiwan), ceases to consider itself to be carrying on the republic founded in 1912, enacts a new constitution, and changes its name. The Austrians initially have their country named Republic of German Austria and identified their country as the rightful successor to the Austrian Empire and the Holy Roman Empire, but they eventually dropped the name and all those identifications. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 18:32, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying, 86.45.54.230. This viewpoint can of course be presented in article text, but promoting it with the article name leaves Wikipedia out of line with contemporary English usage, not just in journalism but also in scholarly books and real encyclopedias. Kanguole 12:34, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

While I don't agree with 86.45.54.230, I am indeed worried that Wikipedia will soon be another venue of renaming en masse, repeating what'd happened in the ROC during the second Chen administration. The Wikipedia articles for China Airlines, China Television, Central Bank of the Republic of China, Chunghwa Post, The China Times, and so on and so forth will all have to be renamed just because of the notion that these names looks stupid and confusing to average lay readers. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 18:32, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I have to say I am very much at one with much of what IP 159.53.174.144 said above. Also, some one suggested in response to me that somehow Taiwan is in contemporary usage and Republic of China is not. That is patently untrue. Just visit most ROC governement websites etc. Taiwan residents are generally proud of their ROC. Any way, again, I smell politics in all of this. The "Republic of China" has been the name of the article from the start. It is abundently clear that there is no consensus to move the article. Given this, I would hope this discussion can be brought to an end. If not, I will continue to participate as best I can. 86.45.54.230 (talk) 18:45, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Discussion about discussion

I will emphasise one more point before I again move on. This conversation is incredibly difficult to follow with all the unregistered IP editors contributing. I cannot keep track of who is saying what. Societies that want to dehumanise parts of their population take away peoples' names and give them numbers. Only a fool would do it to themselves. Yes, It's within the rules of Wikipedia to not register, but I cannot comprehend why you won't do it, just as I cannot comprehend your recalcitrance over the naming issue. Registering could only help your case. I say again, this part of Wikipedia is one of its ugliest parts. Newcomers will not comprehend the views of the IP editors for the many reasons already given. You will NEVER win your political fight here, so please stop destroying the place. You are not showing good faith in any way at all. Goodbye again for now. HiLo48 (talk) 20:08, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

From what I know there is no policy on Wikipedia to discriminate IP editors, and therefore register or not should make no difference to the case. Each IP editors got different IP addresses and therefore they can be tracked and identified, and it's your very own POV to call them fools. And further we don't label people by their names. We read what they actually said. I care only about the content of their arguments and I don't pre-judge one's arguments just because of their names. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 20:39, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but I can't help myself. I MUST respond. If you think that post refutes ANYTHING I said, you are sadly deluded. Yet again, conversation here is appalling. A sick part of Wikipedia. HiLo48 (talk) 20:44, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. It's not clear who is the same person commenting on a rotating IP, which are deliberate socks, etc. Equally, they are all piling in out of chronological order, mostly to add irrelevant side-points and petty trivialities and/or bizarre suggestions about rewriting WP naming policies to avoid the "bias" of the real world. Even GotR, who at least has a named account, is a confirmed sock account that was created to evade a block, and has now taken to removing others' talk page contributions - not once, but twice. As you say, it's time-consuming for everyone involved and counter-productive for them, not least because it clarifies their agenda here, which is nakedly political and obscurantist. At least the most ubiquitous disrupter and spammer, who is also almost certainly a block- or ban-evading sock, has now finally and explicitly conceded that Taiwan is the common name for the country - just that they do not like it - so we now have agreement on the only significant, substantive point that needs to be debated for now. Hopefully the move request, when put formally, will be agreed more cleanly and more easily. I'd even go so far as to say that some of these IPs need to be barred from contributing to that. N-HH talk/edits 20:46, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't think I had conceded anything in the diff link that you quoted. It has always been my position that while Taiwan is a common reference to the contemporary ROC, Taiwan ≠ ROC. The two aren't identical nor congruent. And no I am not a sock. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 21:54, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

As for deletion of your remarks: I was told that those subsections were meant to be collaborative (see Cybercobra 21:12, 6 February 2012), and aren't supposed to be debated point by point. And I have actually restored those comments that GotR had deleted. Keep calm and stay cool. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 21:57, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

The only appalling thing in this portion of the talk page is your rhetoric. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.46.140 (talk) 21:34, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Let's not get back into a pointless discussion as to whether an editor understands why some editors prefer simply IP addresses. It's allowed on WP - period. We all have to abide by the rules (including against sock puppeting and intolerance etc). For what it is worth, I did recently explain why I prefer to edit as an IP. You can read the explanation at User talk:Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington (section) if you wish. Back to the discussion, the Republic of China is far more than Taiwan Province. That's the reason why I oppose the proposed move. I've already explaind a bit why I hold this view (as do many others). There is no consensus for any change in the article names. 86.45.54.230 (talk) 12:13, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

The discussion is not pointless. It's always useful in a debate to understand the true motivations of all participants. Understanding why you won't take the obviously (to me) helpful step of registering would really help me understand you better. Your link doesn't work. And you have repeated yourself without explanation, ignoring valid points made by others. Now, THAT'S a pointless post. HiLo48 (talk) 21:04, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

HiLo48, that's a pretty WP:BITE-y remark. S/he made a copypaste typo, and it really isn't that hard to figure out that copypasting the first half of the link in the URL bar leads to a working page. And yes, it does appear that your rhetoric so far has been rather belligerent, from what I have read above. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 01:13, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Congratulations. You've worked out that I am extremely frustrated with a group of editors deliberately avoiding constructive conversation here. Oh, and whenever I post something complicated like a link, I Preview it. (In fact I preview most of my longer posts to check for typos.) Our IP editors insist that they are skilled and experienced editors despite choosing not to register, thus making it look like they are not experienced. Why should I be the one to sort out their stuff-ups? HiLo48 (talk) 01:43, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, we have WP-namespace pages regarding that, including WP:TEA, WP:BREAK and WP:COOL. Getting angry at people over the internet doesn't go anywhere, and it does give a novel impression towards the other people (if this wasn't Wikipedia, I would have uncontrollably put on my trolling hat and made a silly reply like "WHY YOU SO MAD YOU SO MAD YOU SO MAAAAAD INTERNET TEARS", but if I did that here I'd probably get my ass kicked by the community. That's exactly how I feel when I read people getting angry over the internet). You've given out your point already regarding your dissatisfaction towards other editors; any more than once and it gives people the impression that you're easy trollbait, and I'm practically grabbing my own nuts with my claws in stopping myself from behaving like I do on other websites. I'd advise you not to get internet-angry since it doesn't further your argument any better, and instead makes the situation more comic for people like myself. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 03:48, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

That's actually a very unhelpful contribution. You have made it appear that I am the problem here. I can quite deliberately and consciously choose what style I post with. Many of us here have tried the nice, rational and logical approach to the editors that are destroying this Talk page. It doesn't work. If you've looked beyond my post you will know that. I am quite deliberately trying another approach. You have now destroyed its effectiveness. You have given strength to those who are really damaging Wikipedia, when you should be condemning them. We shouldn't allow truly disruptive editors to be protected by a façade of niceness from others. Can you solve the REAL problem here please? HiLo48 (talk) 04:10, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

"Our IP editors insist that they are skilled and experienced editors despite choosing not to register, thus making it look like they are not experienced. Why should I be the one to sort out their stuff-ups?"

(indent) You still don't get it? I'll try and explain this a bit further:

A decent discussion of a controversial topic

• A: This is my point.
• B: I disagree with your point, here are my reasons.
• A: I support my point with these reasons. I debunk your reasons with these points.
• B: There is a flaw in your reasons in this section. Also, these points.

What I seem to be seeing from you

• A: This is my point.
• B: Your point is wrong.
• A: This is another aspect of my point.
• B: As explained ad nauseam above, your point is wrong.
• A: Why are you ignoring my point?
• B: OH GOD, I TOLD YOU ALREADY, YOUR POINT IS WRONG, IT IS NULL AND VOID, IP EDITORS THESE DAYS, JESUS CHRIST

If you truly are getting frustrated, then take a break. Otherwise, change your rhetoric a bit, it's not constructive. I get the impression that you are selectively reading people's posts, selectively ignoring parts of posts, and then stating that other people's points are incorrect without effectively addressing them. Not only on this page; I've seen this elsewhere as well; it's not what I think to be the right way to deal with controversial issues. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 04:40, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Again, you seem to want to make it look like the problems with this page are my fault, and you know they are not, so please put your effort into criticising those creating the problems. To help you understand, I'll provide you with a correct description of the flow we've seen above....

• A: These are my points.
• B: This is my point
• A: I believe your point is wrong and/or irrelevant because...... Can you please respond to the points I made.
• B: This is my point.
• A: Can we please have a conversation here. Please respond to the points I have made
• B: This is my point

...etc, etc, etc.....

There is no real conversation occurring. I have wondered how to use Wikipedia's processes to address this, with no success so far. You know I am not the only person here experiencing the same difficulties. Please suggest a solution that doesn't involve allowing the deliberate (or incompetent?) obfuscators to keep damaging Wikipedia. If you keep telling me to give up, I can only assume that you are taking sides with those blocking progress here.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by HiLo48 (talk • contribs) 05:07, 12 February 2012‎ (UTC)

The solution quite simply is to ignore them. If "B" is repeating the same point, to which "A" has already addressed, then there is no need for "A" to respond to "B" a second time. Increasing the volume of text on this page ends up scaring away the bystanders rather than enlightening them.--Jiang (talk) 20:43, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

I must confess I have not read every word posted above....But if we are still discussing IP editors and the supposed difficulty of reading posts by IP editors, I am disappointed. Frankly, I think such discussion is at this point simply disruptive. This is a talk page for the Republic of China article. If an editor has an issue with basic rules on Wikipedia (like the right of IP editors to participate), such editor should take that up elsewhere. If the discussion is again back to what it should be about, the article - again, I see no consensus here for the change proposed. 86.45.54.230 (talk) 20:53, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

(←) Re HiLo48's remarks at 01:43, 12 February 2012: "Our IP editors insist that they are skilled and experienced editors despite choosing not to register, thus making it look like they are not experienced. Why should I be the one to sort out their stuff-ups?" - Please be civil and familiarise yourself with Wikiquette. Meanwhile, while I do know the shortcomings for not having a registered account, I hope you can understand that Wikipedia isn't a place for labelling, but a place for meaningful and intellectual collaborations. Even if people are named and therefore can be more easily identified, we don't rely on their names. We rely on the actual content of their contributions. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 22:46, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

I am desperately trying to understand why some editors, such as the incognito one above, ignore things that others post. Possible reasons include bad manners, incompetence, illiteracy.... Hmm, I'm running out of ideas. My point is that I've already made many posts explaining why there are problems in the approach described in that post, and I've been ignored. If there is any possible positive explanation for that, can someone please tell me. HiLo48 (talk) 00:04, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

HiLo, I don't think you've been ignored, but I really don't think this discussion is going anywhere (which is possibly why it's mostly only the IP editors who are responding).. Does anyone mind if I collapse this "discussion about the discussion" section? People have vented a bit, and Benlisquare's posts were pretty funny, but it's probably time to wrap this one up, yes? Mlm42 (talk) 00:45, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Agree. This page is for discussion about the Republic of China article, not for discussion about discussion. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 06:38, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

You have been told that the ROC isn't readily comparable with other island-countries. No other country (currently exist in 2012) has relocated its territorial existence in the way that the ROC did, and no other island-country has similar islands like Kinmen, Pratas, etc., like the ROC does. Have you ever tried to understand that? Who's ignoring who? 218.250.159.25 (talk) 06:38, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Who mentioned island countries? I certainly didn't. I don't think anyone else taking my perspective has either. It's irrelevant. The history is irrelevant. What is relevant is that almost all of the rest of the world uses the name Taiwan to refer to the whole country today. Ignoring that point just makes you look silly, stubborn, rude and stuck in the past. What I also understand is that you and several other IP editors here are obsessed with a very narrow issue, and cannot see the damage they are doing. HiLo48 (talk) 07:13, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry for referring to the wrong argument. That point about island-country was indeed presented but that wasn't yours. I have gone through your comments again and indeed your only argument was that "Taiwan" is the common name for the whole country, and it isn't political. That's how the whole world call this country. It's completely neutral and that's just the name of the country. The statement "China welcomes second term for Taiwan's leader" is 100% clear. It's the common name among 99% of the English-speaking world.

And your responses to the background detail about this country, from its founding across the strait back in 1912, its relocation, its geographical extent as at 2012 beyond the Taiwanese archipelago, its constitution, etc., were: absolute rubbish, unhelpful, obfuscating, fighting 60-year-old wars (you didn't use the hyphen according to standard English grammar, by the way), obscure, irrelevant, off-topic, absolute crap, insulting, politically-motivated pedants, and pointless. And you assert that IP editors aren't experienced. You simply didn't want to go into any detail and to engage in any intellectual discussion.

As a matter of fact you'd even failed to understand that journalistic statement like "China welcomes second term for Taiwan's leader" wouldn't ever be accepted by Wikipedia. That isn't something Beijing can actually say with such wordings, and Wikipedia has an official policy not to endorse or reject ROC's existence as a sovereign state.

You claimed that "almost all of the rest of the world uses the name Taiwan to refer to the whole country today. Ignoring that point just makes you look silly, stubborn, rude and stuck in the past.", but you didn't even reply to my question two days and a half ago at 18:32, 10 February 2012: Do they specifically and explicitly include the non-Taiwan parts of the contemporary republic? It's really time to ask who's ignoring who, and who's ignoring the hard fact and doing the damage. It's perhaps time to follow Ireland's path to submit this trouble to the ArbCom for considerations. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 09:24, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Most references to "Taiwan" include all those territories under the direct current control of the government, including Kinmen etc. See the factbooks and country profiles referenced ad nauseam. Even if some do not, that doesn't affect the fundamental point about what the broad entity is called (and such issues, to the extent that they are issues, would of course still arise whatever it was called). People keep telling you that, and keep pointing out that plenty of countries have similar issues of sovereignty and integration at the margins. The wider issue about overall sovereignty/independence is irrelevant to the name too, and again would arise whatever we call this thing. Also, plenty of countries have come into existence out of nothing or out of other, previous countries; and also have moved their territorial bases or centres over time, even if not quite as dramatically as ROC. Everyone else in the world copes with these difficulties while referring to "Taiwan" in 2012. Wikipedia can too, despite what you happen to think. All your points have been answered to the extent that they ever can be - that's why people are getting p#ssed off with you for continually raising them. ROC is not what the country is called by anyone today - it is called Taiwan. Hence, the WP article that purports to be about the country cannot be called ROC - it should be called Taiwan. Perhaps we can also have a more esoteric article about ROC and its history (indeed we do already of course to some extent eg the History and Government pages), but the basic point here is really very, very simple.

ps: please do not respond with another "what about ...?" N-HH talk/edits 14:55, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

If in case you don't already know, one of my questions was that: Are the islands along the coast of Fujian and in the South China Sea ever considered part of Taiwan, on the condition that the term "Taiwan" isn't used as a euphemism for "Republic of China"? My another question was: For how long has it been known as Taiwan? I also asked: How are we going to explain topics like Taiwanese independence movement? All these questions met with answers like silly, stubborn, rubbish, unhelpful, irrelevant, fight a 60 year old war, crap, or vague answers like "addressed in the text". We also talked about neutral point of view and common name issues, and acceptability of exceptions for special cases. The only answer was that it's common, as common as 99% English speakers do, and no one bothered to discuss Republic of Ireland as a precedence. Not even the neutrality issues in the World Factbook was ever considered. Coupled with the problem that some had exhibited quite a lot of misunderstandings about the subject matter, I don't think the discussion here had ever got those fundamental questions answered. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 18:09, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

This is precisely the problem. None of those things you mention are "fundamental questions" when it comes to the basic point at issue, but you keep repeating them. Issues about Ireland, outlying islands, history and supposed bias (unless severe) etc etc are simply neither here nor there. You seem to be under the misapprehension that we are here to debate what the article title ought to be, based on detailed analytical argument and debate. We are not. The fundamental issue is very simple - not what this thing ought to be called (or what random WP editors think it "ought" to be called), but what it is called. I'm not interested in having a debate about the first aspect, let alone by way of rehashing the same old arguments over and over again. Nor do we need to. Do you get this? N-HH talk/edits 19:10, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Those questions are relatively more important than common name. Do you get this? Wikipedia isn't about what lay people thinks about. It's about neutral presentation of hard facts. That's the aim, goal and duty of Wikipedia. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 19:48, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

To put my point my clearly: I want the ROC to be replaced by Taiwan. And I want them to either define all those remote islands as part of Taiwan or to pull out from them. But before that actually happens, don't pretend it has already happened. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 19:52, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

"You seem to be under the misapprehension that we are here to debate what the article title ought to be, based on detailed analytical argument and debate. We are not." - With all due respect, I'm afraid that's an unencylopedic approach and is counter-constructive to any encyclopedia project. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 19:56, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

I can lend you a spade if you need any more help with this hole you are digging for yourself. N-HH talk/edits 20:02, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

I did not "assert that IP editors aren't experienced." I pointed out, with very positive intentions, that people who choose not to register run the risk of looking inexperienced. Any mistake they make will be put down by others to the fact that they are only posting from an IP address and therefore probably don't know the rules properly and don't really have a strong background on Wikipedia. I still cannot comprehend the logic of why so many editors on this page remain unregistered. And before anyone says "because they can", that is simply not a reason. HiLo48 (talk) 19:41, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

That's plain stereotyping. And please familiarise yourself with WP:Indentation (particularly point #2 and #3) before you cut again in the middle of a dialogue.[4] 218.250.159.25 (talk) 19:48, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

It may well be stereotyping, but don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger. (Or don't you understand that yet?) And I would please request that you don't move my posts again. I put it where I put it for a reason. You are the one who has put my post out of logical sequence, but the damage has been done. Unlike you, I'm willing to move forward. HiLo48 (talk) 21:30, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

You may perhaps read #2 and #3 of WP:Indentation again. I know that's a shortcoming for not having a registered account. But no you didn't appear to be just a messenger in your remarks at 01:43, 12 February 2012. But anyway, that isn't important. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 22:17, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Netvigator IP, please familiarise yourself with WP:ESSAYS before you try lecturing other editors on conduct. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 21:39, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Back to discussion re the Article

I've created this break in the discussion as it was getting sidetracked on irrelevant points (General Wiki principles etc). Again, there is no consensus for any change so I do not see where this discussion is going. The Republic of China is far more than Taiwan Province. Hence, the article's name is appropriate. 86.45.54.230 (talk) 10:52, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Shouldn't that be the Republic of China was far more than Taiwan, but now is only a little bit more? So while we should have an article on the history of the ROC, when naming the article on the country as it exists today we should also follow the preponderance of usage in reliable English-language sources. Kanguole 11:43, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't get this argument at all. Even the island of Taiwan is more than Taiwan Province. Is that articles name inappropriate too? CMD (talk) 13:33, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

I think 86.45.54.230 means the traditional province. He/she has explained the "far more" here. Kanguole 13:51, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Ah, the traditional province. That's very in the past. Anyway, as we're not renaming this page "Taiwan Province", that shouldn't be a problem. CMD (talk) 14:06, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Yup, nothing to do with anything much really. N-HH talk/edits 14:57, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

I guess he or she's talking about the geographical limit of the province in 1895, between 1945 to 1967, or the Japanese colony, which is the domain of benshengren and aborigines in the cultural and historical sense. And yes the difference between the ROC and Taiwan isn't only about the tiny remote islands, but also the laws brought in by the ROC, the state organs, the constitution, the flag, the coat of arms, the many monuments around the country, and so on and so forth. These aren't only about names, but also values and ideologies. People from the ROC may identify themselves as Taiwanese and call the country "Taiwan" in common speech. But if they're asked whether or not their country has essentially been transformed into Taiwan, that will be a much longer and more difficult story. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 20:17, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

For so many reasons, there is no consensus for a change to the article name. 86.42.18.148 (talk) 20:07, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Please stop repeat the same thing again and again. That's counter-productive. If you got any argument, just say it. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 20:17, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

The amount of text people have written going in circles on this talk page nearly deserves to be on WP:LAME, along with 'aluminium vs aluminum', 'colour vs color' and others of their ilk. Not quite, but nearly. 86.*, you keep saying there's no consensus for change but that's not what this discussion has been about, and you've been told this more than once. What we're discussing here are our options, and out of those options a formal proposal for change will eventually come about. That hasn't happened yet. Repeating yourself over and over the way you're doing is the argument equivalent of putting your hands over your ears chanting "lalala I can't hear you". You're effectively trying to shoot down a proposal before you've even seen it. That's hardly a collegial way of going about things. Why don't you wait to see what the proposal ends up being before you insist it has no consensus? TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 21:50, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

218.250.159.25 - I have already set out my arguments for why the proposed move is not suitable; I have also pointed out several times that there is no consensus for the change. I think the entire discussion is counter-productive is productive is defiend as a good ROC article. But the discussion will go on, it seems, for what I regard as "political" reasons. If you wish to be productive, 218.250.159.25, why not help improve the article rather than pushing this "article name" agenda. Again, the Repuhlic of China is far more than Taiwan Province and the name of the article is approriate. No consensus for change exists. 86.42.18.148 (talk) 11:54, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

... TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 12:21, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Hah. Now where's my popcorn? *munch* *munch* -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 15:53, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

What are your arguments, apart from there is no consensus and the ROC is far more than Taiwan Province? 218.250.159.25 (talk) 12:02, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Taiwan is not "sovereign state"

Taiwan will be sovereign when there is Taiwanese independence and most countries in the world acknowledge independent Taiwan. Most countries don't acknowledge Taiwan as an independent nation including the United States, Japan and vast majority of European countries. Taiwan legally is not sovereign. Including "Taiwan is a sovereign state" is factually incorrect and POV. 174.51.176.22 (talk) 04:26, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Taiwan meets the definition of a de facto sovereign state. Recognition is not a requirement of sovereignty under the Montevideo Convention, alongside the European Union's Badinter Committee. The declarative definition of a sovereign state is accepted as international law. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 06:01, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

No it is not. you used the word "de facto." So in other words in truth it is not sovereign. Republic of china didn't declare independence. Sovereign technically means independent. ROC is not independent. They themselves didn't officially declare their independence and other countries didn't acknowledge anything. Country is independent or not. if they are not independent they are not "sovereign." I understand your Taiwanese nationalism, but in common sense around the world Taiwan is not really a sovereign country. 174.51.176.22 (talk) 08:38, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

How is Taiwan not independent? They were never under another power that they had to declare independence from. CMD (talk) 10:32, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

174.51.176.22, I don't know where you learned your history, but you're wrong. The ROC did declare independence. The ROC declared independence from the Manchu Qing Dynasty and has been a sovereign state ever since.

Ok here is the issue. ROC existed after the Qing dynasty, but they lost the civil war to people's republic of china and the moved to Taiwan. PRC is much more acknowledged by the world as being an independent sovereign state. ROC lost their position in the UN Security Council to PRC, another sign that ROC is not legitimate country. Read the Taiwan independence article. It states that Taiwan didn't officially declare their independence from PRC. PRC claims ROC is not legitimate country and will militarily attack ROC if there is "official" written declaration of independence. Taiwan claims it has defacto independence, but it is not official. It is not written. Taiwan lost their legitimacy around the world after the Chinese Civil War. Taiwan got lucky because US and other western nations vowed to defend Taiwan if PRC attacked them on the island. The west saved Taiwan otherwise the PRC would've finished Taiwan off after World War 2.

I can understand that Taiwanese can say they are independent country in Taiwan, which is fine, but around the world Taiwan is not considered independent country acknowledged by the powerful countries. There is certain level of independence like elections, laws and military, but there is huge dispute happening about whether taiwan is totally "independent" country like, Iraq, India, Vietnam, US, Canada. Mentally it is ok to claim that Taiwan is independent, but officially/technically it is hard to say it is a sovereign state. Taiwan can be a "country" but not necessarily a "sovereign state" right now. It is psychological vs. reality. Taiwan psychologically claims that PRC is a "free area" of the ROC, but that will never be reality. Reality is ROC will never invade PRC and the communist party. It is a little bit of dream and reality contradiction. For Taiwanese living in Taiwan, Taiwan seems independent, but looking at closely and from the outside (non-Taiwanese) perspective, it is an island that has dispute with its huge neighbor and can't 100% control its destiny right now. 174.51.176.22 (talk) 16:03, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

The PRC has never controlled Taiwan or the other areas currently administered by the Republic of China. What about the countries which do recognise the ROC? Note also, that the ROC did not lose UN membership seat until 1971, 22 years after the founding of the PRC, with some countries, including the United States, continuing to recognise the ROC up until the end of that decade, and some beyond that even, i.e. South Africa. As explained, the ROC is a de facto (and de jure to the states which still recognise the ROC) sovereign state. It seems more of a personal analysis of the situation, which in fairness, does have some factually accurate information, however, the reality is that both the PRC and ROC exist, and they don't control each other's territories. If the ROC is only recognised by a minority of states, then equally the PRC is partially or wholly unrecognised by that same minority.--Tærkast (Discuss) 17:25, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

PRC never controlled Taiwan, but Taiwan is not 100% recognized by any members of the UN Security Council and the powerful countries officially. Couple of small and poor nations recognize it in Oceania and Africa. 12.190.142.192 (talk) 17:49, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

State (polity) is an alternative which indisputably applies to the ROC, though I express no opinion as to whether this substitution ought to be made. --Cybercobra (talk) 17:44, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Taiwan is independent to a certain degree. It has limits to its independence and they know it. It is hard for Taiwan to say that. 12.190.142.192 (talk) 17:50, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

I came here was after a headline in a major newspaper clearly recognising the results of what it described as the national elections, and describing the whole country as Taiwan. HiLo48 (talk) 19:58, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

If we change this article to "Taiwan" and remove all references to the fact that the ROC (Taiwan) is a (de facto) sovereign state, most people unfamiliar with the situation will then assume or believe that it is not and that it is a part of the People's Republic of China. The wheels of changing, diminishing and erasing (in literature if not in fact) the ROC's status as a sovereign state on Wikipedia has already begun to spin. Next, the Pro-PRC crowd will start insisting that "Taiwan" be labeled as a de facto Special Administrative Region. By propogating inaccurate information and thereby changing perception, the ROC will one day be forced to capitulate to the PRC as a SAR (or worse, just another rovince) without the PRC ever firing a shot. We need to be accurate.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.78.140 (talk) 22:04, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

This is literally the worst reason so far that somebody has offered in favor of moving the article one way or the other. But you do bring up a good point: it's not a good idea to describe Taiwan as a "de facto" this or that, whether a sovereign state or something else. We should make plain and immediate the fact that the overwhelming majority of states don't consider Taiwan/ROC to be a sovereign state. Using Wikipedia as an activist platform to deny this reality (even for a good cause for which most of us would agree; that is, undermining those evil Chinese Communists) is still activism. Shrigley (talk) 22:46, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

159.53.78.140, you're clearly declaring that your intentions here are political. Wikipedia should not make decisions on such grounds. We need to be neutral and make decisions on the basis of providing encyclopaedic content in the best way possible. We must consider this debate as one between Wikipedia's desire to have names which are common and the competing desire to be accurate. We should not be having a political discussion. LukeSurl ^{t c} 00:03, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

As I mentioned in my reply near the beginning of this thread, Taiwan is already by definition a sovereign state. De facto is just a descriptor, it helps clarify but it's not essential. International law holds that recognition is not necessary for a state to be considered sovereign. Certainly we'd say that Taiwan has very little international recognition as a legitimate state, but we wouldn't say that this strips them of their sovereignty because that's not the case, by definition. Politics, which sadly have been involved in this discussion for the entire time, have no power to influence the decisions that we will make based on Wikipedia's policies and guidelines.

I will point out again, for the benefit of some of the latecomers, that the ROC Government Information Office (GIO) uses the term Taiwan in reference to the country in many of its own official press releases. It's plainly not a case of the name Taiwan being inaccurate if the government itself has no problem making use of it. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 02:44, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

The precise status/description of Taiwan - unlike the name itself, despite the wrangling over that - is obviously quite tricky to define/agree and is something that will need to be agreed on in article text. Personally, I think an explicit description, unqualified, as a "sovereign state" lacks precision and accuracy. N-HH talk/edits 09:57, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Did they mention that it's an election for the 13th term of the presidency, since the adoption of the present constitution? 218.250.159.25 (talk) 13:33, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

It's two questions, namely: (1) Is the ROC a sovereign state, and (2) Is this sovereign state a Taiwan state. From the international law point of view the ROC is certainly independent and sovereign, as TechnoSymbiosis has rightly pointed out. But it isn't yet independent and sovereign as Taiwan. It is still a rump state. It's carrying on the ROC within a much smaller territorial extent. The DPP administration under president Chen took the first steps to transform it into a Taiwan state. But those were very preliminary steps and some had already been undone by the following KMT administration under Ma. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 12:02, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I have no idea what this contribution refers to, or what relevance it has to anything. N-HH talk/edits 22:59, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

If you knew the issue, then you would understand what the IP is trying to state but I guess there is no point in arguing against people who have not read the articles or don't understand the complexity of the issue or care about it or outrightly ignore it.Typhoonstorm95 (talk) 03:20, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I understand what they are trying to get at, but it is appallingly written and the points being made, to the extent that they are serious points at all, are irrelevant, eg "it isn't yet independent and sovereign as Taiwan". What does that mean? What does it have to do with anything? The politics of individual Taiwanese parties are equally irrelevant to the point in question. I am well aware of the complexities of Taiwan-China issues, thank you, which are and should be covered in article text (as I and everyone else have always said). I am also, however, aware of the rather uncomplicated nature of the issue we have been bogged down in here - which relates simply and solely to the article name. Anyway, it would seem the discussion has moved on, so, whatever. N-HH talk/edits 11:44, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Re-name, again

Having read ( and slightly contributed to) the previous renaming discussions, I am making another proposal. As a compromise solution, I expect it will satisfy no-one, but on the other hand as I think something needs to be done, I’m hoping there’s just enough for everyone to make it acceptable.
Therefore I propose this page be moved to “Republic of China (Taiwan)”, because a) it can’t stay where it is; ROC is not the common name for this country in most of the world outside Taiwan , but b) as it’s the official name for the country it should be acceptable to those who are unhappy with simply using Taiwan as the article name.
I propose to put this in as a request move, unless everybody dislikes it. Xyl 54 (talk) 22:38, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Inb4 Fujian, Quemoy, Matsu, etc. Shrigley (talk) 22:46, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

I think you're jumping the gun. There is already a move request in the works to move the article fully to Taiwan. I suggest you wait until that proposal has been lodged, discussed and then a decision taken over it. John Smith's (talk) 23:04, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

I see no merit in this proposal at all. The state's name is the "Republic of China". That of itself is not exactly short. Adding 'Open Brackets Taiwan Close Brackets' to it is unnecessary and of no benefit. I also disagree with it because the Republic of China is far more than Taiwan Province....but if I get into the various reasons (see my postings above), I will be accused of repetition (rightly!). There is no consensus for any change either! 86.46.26.227 (talk) 23:36, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

The common name of the country is Taiwan. Just as with the United States, that should be the name of the article. HiLo48 (talk) 00:11, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Rename to Taiwan. Absolutely.

I have been to "China" twice. I got nowhere near Taiwan.

No one flies to "China" and arrives in Taipei.

When Chinese Canadians talk about what packaged food is safe to eat, they say food from China is dangerous, but food from Taiwan is ok.

The Kuomintang lost the war in the 1940s. Why are we clinging desperately to this fiction that they won?

Those of us who lived through the Cold War stopped saying "Red China" (bad) vs. "Nationalist China" (good) some time in the 1970s.

Varlaam (talk) 01:29, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

"The Kuomintang lost the war in the 1940s. Why are we clinging desperately to this fiction that they won?" - Because they didn't lose. The island, that is (Verb, example 2), not the war (Verb, example 3). "When Chinese Canadians talk about what packaged food is safe to eat, they say food from China is dangerous, but food from Taiwan is ok." - anecdotal accounts don't prove anything; some people say that the Soviets liberated them from the Nazis, and welcomed them heartily, whilst others say that the Soviets gang-raped their wives and daughters. Individual sampling is not representative of an entire population; part of my university course (Physiotherapy) deals with statistics and quantitative research. In fact, instead of being on Wikipedia, I'm supposed to be finishing my essay on qualitative and quantitative research right now, whoops. "I have been to "China" twice. I got nowhere near Taiwan. No one flies to "China" and arrives in Taipei." - If you fly to Kinmen, you get nowhere near Taiwan. No one flies to Matsu and arrives on Taiwan. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 02:17, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

There are many Taiwanese people in Chinatowns all around Canada (and the United States). And one may fly to Taipei or Kaohsiung with China Airlines. There they may watch the programmes of China Television, get a tank of petroleum from Chinese Petro, get a pre-paid telephone plan with Chunghwa Telecom, and send a postcard with a stamp from Chunghwa Post. Further, the full name of KMT remains Chung-kuo Kuo-ming-tang. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 12:02, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

No, benlisquare, but people alighting in Kinmen do arrive in Taiwan by common terminology, as do people travelling to Taipei. And neither of those, very definitely, arrive "in China" as commonly understood. As to Mr IP, I am very happy for all the people you describe. However, what other things might be called has nothing to do with anything in relation to this article. N-HH talk/edits 22:51, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

• I'm fine with "Republic of China (Taiwan)", as long as there is a relevant article dealing with the Beiyang and KMT on mainland governments. I can't be bothered with this anymore. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 02:23, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
  • It's certainly wearying, isn't it. Do stay around if possible, it's nice to have rational input (not to mention a name instead of a number) from the opposing side. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 02:51, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Having the article name "Taiwan" is the most logical move there is after the move of PRC -> China. It so happens this fits what the people who ride the WP:commonname argument want. But if you are serious about "Republic of China (Taiwan)", you better be ready for "Republic of China (mainland 1912-1949)", something along that line. Benjwong (talk) 03:04, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Taking into account of the current talk at Talk:Republic of China (1912–1949)#Proposed solution; split, it seems that making these moves

• Beiyang Government --> Republic of China (1912-1927)
• Nationalist Government --> Republic of China (1927-1949)

and the creation of Communist-controlled China (1927–1949) makes a page such as Republic of China (Taiwan) fit in more snugly, ignoring the fact that the China article also exists. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 05:21, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

While I appreciate the intention, this seems like one of those odd, bespoke WP compromises that go too far in accomodating an obscurity. The common name of this entity, as argued and evidenced ad nauseam above, is indisputably Taiwan. Nobody uses ROC any more, even the Taiwanese government half the time. Not only is this mix and match suggestion giving undue weight to that alternative, it also relies on us using the equally rarely used "Republic of China (Taiwan)" formulation. N-HH talk/edits 10:04, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. ROC government publications in the English language use the ROC(T) form, and avoid using "Taiwan" directly on its own, unless referring to the geographical Taiwan. It's not a rarely used term as you might think it to be. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 10:15, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

It may not be absolutely rare, in that it is never seen, but it is definitely rare in relative terms. I agree with N-HH, the formulation doesn't fix anything. Disambiguation is for when there is a clash of two identical common names with no primary topic. Not the case here. CMD (talk) 10:29, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

(EC) I agree the government sometimes use the ROC(T) form, as they do the straight ROC form (I said use was rare in both cases, not non-existent). They also use Taiwan on its own, and often fairly clearly about the state as a whole, not just the mainland. But virtually no one else uses the first two options - all serious global reference sources and world media use simply "Taiwan", as do most media in Taiwan as far as I can tell. An opening sentence that says "Taiwan, officially the Republic of China", to me seems to offer more than enough clarity, as well as due weight to the alternative. N-HH talk/edits 10:31, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

That's obscure to you because you don't care about the detail apart from the title and the scope of this article. You resist to get into those details. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 12:02, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

The move from PRC to China should be undone. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 12:02, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

That likely is not going to happen. There are many supporters that PRC = China, the strongest supporter being the UN. Also I don't know who started the trend that government pages = country pages. They are two different things. Benjwong (talk) 13:02, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Efforts should be spent to restore that article. We should not instead spread the problem to other articles. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 13:15, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

The arguments are well known....Why go around in circles. There is no consensus for any change. The article has been stable at "Republic of China" for years and should stay there. 86.46.26.227 (talk) 13:16, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

That move discussion was a legitimate one. Like or dislike the result, that move lasted 3 years, and it was not rushed. The ROC article is anything but stable. It has been accused of not syncing with the times. Even ROC citizens call themselves Taiwanese, do you need any more evidence. Benjwong (talk) 13:26, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

It has long been the usual practice for country articles to cover all aspects of a country, from government to geography, both on WP and in paper encyclopedias. It is WP's ROC/Taiwan split that is strange. Kanguole 13:53, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

It's such insistence on accuracy and neutrality that makes Wikipedia the most successful encyclopedia project ever. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 14:04, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

No, it's wikipedia's crowd sourcing that makes it successful. All decent encyclopaedias strive for accuracy and neutrality. CMD (talk) 14:12, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Alright. Let's look at how Encyclopaedia Britannica names the entries for the Republic of Ireland,[5] the Republic of Macedonia,[6] and the Federated States of Micronesia.[7] 218.250.159.25 (talk) 14:37, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes? CMD (talk) 14:54, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

No. Just another deliberately sneaky distraction from and avoidance of the real issue here. The common name of the country is Taiwan. Anything else is local politics and not wanted here. HiLo48 (talk) 17:34, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

It isn't only about local politics, but international relations and politics too. And no, common name isn't the sole principle or pillar of Wikipedia. There are other more important values. You don't belong to Wikipedia more so than I do just because you got a registered account. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 17:56, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

True, but for some incomprehensible reason you've chosen to make it appear that way. No matter how much you protest that it shouldn't, it does. And let's be sensible here. The name of the country isn't what makes the international relations work or not work. Grasping onto the China part of the name is just a desperate but ultimately futile distortion of reality by people still fighting a long lost 60 year old war. Calling your beloved country Taiwan would make no difference whatsoever to international relations. I do acknowledge that it may hurt some egos, but surely it's time to bite the bullet and move forward, rather than forever hoping to move backwards, and trying to use Wikipedia as a tool for achieving that unachievable goal. It's sad that the same people who cannot face reality over the name of the country cannot face reality over registering here. I do remember names, and the kinds of things different named editors post. I cannot remember 12 digit numbers, so I have no idea what you have said here in the past. There is no continuity to your persona and your arguments. If you did register, you would make conversation so much easier for us all, and be able to present your position so much more solidly and cogently. HiLo48 (talk) 19:42, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

@IP, as neither HiLo48 or I even mentioned IP vs named users in the posts you were replying to, I have no idea why you brought that up. CMD (talk) 21:07, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

There are so many reasons why the ROC name for the article is appropriate. Some one pointed out that the common name is not by any means the sole criterion. The same person noted the importance of the "Republic of China" name in terms of international relations. Another person has stressed its importance in terms of understanding that the state referred to has a history that goes well beyond Taiwan Province. I have pointed out other reasons and that there is no consensus for any change. Clearly no change commands any consensus support. The article name should remain unchanged. 86.46.26.227 (talk) 22:40, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Immediately after the claim of the importance of the ROC name in international relations to which you've just referred, I refuted it, with reasons, yet you just keep repeating dogma. That shows both very poor faith (ignoring my post) and a foolish approach to discussion here. When this goes to a properly framed RfC, and quality of argument is assessed, you will get nowhere. HiLo48 (talk) 22:56, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

@IP also. I don't wish to be rude, but on what basis should the rest of us trust your forcefully put opinion when it comes to naming issues, and theoretical and practical points related to the English language, when you write things like "Efforts should be spent to restore that article" ... "You don't belong to Wikipedia more so than I do just because you got a registered account"? N-HH talk/edits 22:51, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Taiwan could be added to the title of this article but I would be opposed to removing "Republic of China" from the title. Doing so would create several potential headaches that I don't think those who bang on the WP:COMMONNAME drum fully appreciate when they dismiss the thorny problems as "local politics." I'm opposed to this going to RfC simply because I don't think the complexities of this issue will be adequately analyzed when any editor can just drive by and cast a vote. The appeal to common knowledge should be considered in the context of an encyclopedia whose job it is is to educate.--Brian Dell (talk) 02:47, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

There should be no problem. We can educate as much as we want. The article can (already does) include heaps about the history. How the name has evolved over time is also important and should be included. But resisting modern reality is just foolish, as would be using a name that is not the current effective name of the country. That would not be educational, apart from showing the world the intransigence of some fighters of a long ago lost war. HiLo48 (talk) 04:27, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I keep reading references to a "long lost war". The Chinese Civil War being lost doesn't mean that the Republic of China is lost; the only two scenarios where that is possible is if a) the PLA crosses the Taiwan Strait, or b) the Taiwanese people rectify their country's name via a referendum or violent coup. Equating the loss of a war with the loss of a country is like saying that de Gaulle's France was "lost", forever, during 1940. Sure, I don't expect the National Revolutionary Army of the Republic of China to be marching into Beijing next Wednesday, but that does not mean that the ROC is no more. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 06:59, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

No, but it's name is now effectively Taiwan. HiLo48 (talk) 07:15, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Though the ROC lost the mainland, Taiwan was never "liberated" by Mao's army (nomenclature and euphemism of PRC historiography used), and global recognition of Taiwan as a province of either the PRC, or as "China", is rectified de jure by name and rhetoric only. Until the People's Liberation Army "liberates" the hell of of Taiwan (like how the United States "freed" the shit out of Iraq), there still exists a polity named the ROC. This might happen at any time (after all, Zhejiang was not fully "liberated" until 10 years after most of the mainland was "liberated"), or never at all, and until then, the ROC is not de facto dead. Similarly, until "national rectification" (rhetoric of the Democratic Progressive Party used) occurs by popular vote, the ROC still exists. Until then, use of "Taiwan" can only be colloquial and informal, regardless of how commonly used, which is why "Republic of China (Taiwan)" is a feasible article title, but "Taiwan" is not (for the country article). ROC(T) clarifies the situation for those who are not familiar with the situation (the "(Taiwan)" makes it clear enough to even the dumbest of readers that it isn't the "other China"), whilst "Taiwan" takes one side that is not reflective of reality. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 07:19, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh, for god's sake, you really are still fighting that war, aren't you? Can't you see that the rest of the world doesn't care? There's a country there off the east coast of China. It's not called China. It's called Taiwan. Not your perspective? Tough. It's how the rest of the world sees it. HiLo48 (talk) 07:26, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but the rest of the world is wrong of course. Britannica? Edited by morons. US State Dept, UK FCO and BBC country profiles? Slavishly following the dictates of their biased governments (unlike the Taiwanese government, whose occasional use of ROC or ROC (Taiwan) is decidedly neutral, naturally). Whitaker's Almanack? A fly-by-night publication with no authority whatsoever. The New York Times? Amateur tabloid whose writers are ignorant of world affairs. Taiwan's own media? Just confused probably. By contrast, a couple of Wikipedia editors know the wp:truth and can explain it to the rest of us at tedious length using their own original research, their powers of logical analysis, and their dedication to educating readers and purported neutrality (aka "the world as I see it"). Fortunately, they will save the rest of us from making fools of ourselves here by taking the easy option and doing what everyone else in the world does when it comes to the simple question of naming this thing. N-HH talk/edits 11:23, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

If you look at the Wikipedia sites for the "rest of the world", you'll see that having PRC=China and ROC=Taiwan is in the minority. Many use the full name of "People's Republic of China" and "Republic of China". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.78.144 (talk) 18:15, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Wow, lucky for us wikipedia is a reliable source we must follow. But on topic, other languages=other terminology=irrelevant. CMD (talk) 19:34, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

What a strange thing for a Wikipedia editor, banging on the drums of WP:COMMONNAME neutrality to type; the whole idea behind using "PRC" and "ROC" instead of "China" and "Taiwan" is for the purpose of reliability and accuracy; why is that so difficult to graps? But, to your point: Do other countries have other terminologies for "People's", "Republic" and "China"? Is "Taiwan" somehow terminologically different in the parts of the world that do not speak English? How are they different? I don't see any differences (I don't think the Portuguese even still call the island of Taiwan "Formosa"). I don't know how many languages you speak, but there can be no fundamental differences for "People's Republic of China", "Republic of China", "China" and "Taiwan". "PRC", "ROC", "China" and "Taiwan" are proper nouns, there are very little differences in terminology for these places.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.110.144 (talk) 20:04, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

^Irrelevant, obfuscating post, again.^

(Well, I think it's "again", Being from an IP address rather than a helpfully responsible editor, I have no idea if that person has posted before. I'm certainly not going to go back and compare 12 digit numbers, and even if the same, that would still be no guarantee it was the same person.) HiLo48 (talk) 20:37, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm answering CMD's "on topic" response to "other languages=other terminology=irrelevant", so I do not know why you're pointing a me instead of him/her in regards to relevancy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.78.140 (talk) 23:04, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Your post immediately followed mine and contained no indication that you were responding to anyone but me. What drugs are you on? (I am getting really sick of ongoing implications that there is something wrong with my editing style here while the rampaging hordes of secretive and anonymous, confusing IP editors are just perfect in all regards. There was no apology. No suggestion that they could have done better. Pure arrogance and absolute load of crap.) HiLo48 (talk) 00:20, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Ironic shitposting is still shitposting. In other words, it's still shitposting, even if you are genuinely trying to be ironic. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 02:31, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Does the character "China" in the context of "Republic of China" mean nothing to people ? "China" does not equal to "Taiwan",so I do not agree "the re-name" thing in any way and I think the main reason that people here have this sort of discussion is because some Taiwanese separatists really eager to use Wikipedia to achieve their political goals,pathetic! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.42.211.202 (talk) 17:02, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

That's a very poorly written post, perhaps from someone whose first language is not English, in which case I would suggest working on another language version of Wikipedia. What I do think I can discern is that I am being accused of being, or being led astray by Taiwanese separatists. WTF? It's laughable, pathetic, incompetent, and/or very bad faith. (English?) Wikipedia is not the place for you. HiLo48 (talk) 19:54, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I think both parties on the opposing sides need to assume good faith. For what it's worth, I don't think calling the IP's views pathetic and incompetent is the best way to word your opinion. Equally, the IPs need to need to respect the views of other users. Both may have valid points, and attacking each other is going to get nowhere. It seems to show a lack of respect on the part of both sides. --Tærkast (Discuss) 20:06, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I cannot assume good faith unless I also assume stupidity. How can I respect the position of someone who accuses me of being part of, or being led astray by Taiwanese separatists. HiLo48 (talk) 20:23, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Nevertheless, you need not resort to retaliation. It seems to me that this whole issue has caused quite a lot of hostility and resentment around here.--Tærkast (Discuss) 20:33, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

You're absolutely right. This "has caused quite a lot of hostility and resentment around here". No resentment on my part, but occasional mild hostility when I see really dumb comments posted here in alleged good faith. But you mistake my intent. It's not retaliation. It's an attempt to get very misled and mistaken (or stupid?) editors to see reality. I won't stop calling the nonsense when I see it. HiLo48 (talk) 20:50, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

HiLo, there's a difference between (1) pointing out others' mistakes and (2) calling them stupid. One is encouraged at Wikipedia, and the other get's people blocked. Mlm42 (talk) 20:58, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I try to choose my words carefully. I truly believe that a comment accusing other editors of being or being led astray by Taiwanese separatists IS stupid. That does not mean I think the poster is stupid, although one inevitably thinks about why someone would post such rubbish. HiLo48 (talk) 21:07, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I try to choose my words carefully. Please try harder. In my opinion, your comments on this talk page have reached an unacceptable level of incivility, which is counter-productive. Mlm42 (talk) 21:18, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

There's a number of IP editors here for whom niceness in others' posts made no difference. What's the point of continuing in the same vein? I firmly believe that with people who don't see my point when I'm nice to them, a more dramatic approach can be very useful. Again, I wasn't the editor who accused other editors of being or being led astray by Taiwanese separatists. THAT'S the real issue here, yet you're attacking my reponse. Have a think about the impact of your response here. You're effectively saying to the misled(?) editor who posted that garbage "Oh, that's OK, we understand, but that evil HiLo, he's the real problem here." You are endorsing the posting of stupid comments. Attack the real problem. HiLo48 (talk) 21:30, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

You may think that "a more dramatic approach" is useful, but I assure you that it is not. It may let you vent some anger, but it does nothing to change the behaviour of other editors, and in fact harms your case since it makes you look unreasonable. I have accepted the fact there are going to be some emotional and deeply misinformed posts on this talk page (as have most editors here); creating an angry dialog only makes things worse. That's why Wikipedia has a civility policy, which I strongly suggest all editors follow. Mlm42 (talk) 01:24, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I still think calling stupid posts for what they are is appropriate, otherwise they stand without criticism and condemnation, and that definitely doesn't help Wikipedia become a better encyclopaedia. We clearly come from different cultures, with different standards of what is "civil", and you cannot see my point. I've made my point now for others to see. I'll stop now, but I do wish someone else would say at least something negative about that accusation from the IP editor that we are all dupes of Taiwanese seperatists. Otherwise, it appears that you agree. The IP editor will certainly be feeling comfortable with his allegation. HiLo48 (talk) 03:42, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Requested Move (February 2012)

• Republic of China → Taiwan
• Taiwan → Taiwan (island)

– The current Taiwan article treats Taiwan only as a geographic entity, while the WikiProject Countries template for countries is located at Republic of China. When referring to the Republic of China in the modern context as both a geographical and political entity in the English language, Taiwan is overwhelmingly the WP:COMMONNAME. Opponents of the proposed move claim that "Republic of China" is the more politically neutral title for the article about the modern political entity; similar claims were made by opponents of last year's PRC / China move. In fact neither name is completely politically neutral,[8] so we should use WP:COMMONNAME to determine the article titles (see WP:POVTITLE).

The subtleties of meaning between the terms "Taiwan" and "Republic of China", and any purported political meaning, should be left to the text of individual articles. Mlm42 (talk) 23:26, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Proposal:

• Move Republic of China to Taiwan, and modify the content (see User:Jpech95/taiwan/Taiwan)
• Move Taiwan to Taiwan (island), and modify the content (see User:Jpech95/taiwan/Taiwan (island))
• Draft an article at Republic of China, with elements similar to the articles Kingdom of the Netherlands and French Fifth Republic.

Usage examples

• "Taiwan". The World Factbook (2024 ed.). Central Intelligence Agency.. This reference is recommended by the Chicago Manual of Style as a source for ”country names”. (§8.43) (see The World Factbook's treatment of Taiwan)
• “Taiwan country profile”, BBC, article title, 27 October 2011.
• ”use Nationalist China or Taiwan for references to the government based on the island" and "use the formal name of the government, the Republic of China, when required for legal precision." Associated Press Stylebook 2005, p. 46. This is the most influential journalism stylebook.
• “Taiwan”, Britannica. This is the title of their entry on this subject.
• "Interview With Taiwan President Ma Ying-jeou", New York Times, Jan. 5, 2012
• “Over the past three years, [President] Ma said his administration has been committed to easing Taiwan-China ties.” CNA, Dec. 27, 2011. CNA is Taiwan’s official news agency.
• "The [Senkaku] island group is controlled by Japan but is also claimed by both Taiwan and China." "Taiwan lodges 3rd protest in Japanese island naming saga", China Post, Feb. 1, 2012. Taiwan's leading English-language daily.
• ICAEW (Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales) "Doing business in...Taiwan"
• Economist "Taiwan’s elections"
• Taiwan Relations Act "In furtherance of the policy set forth in section 2 of this Act, the United States will make available to Taiwan such defense articles and defense services in such quantity as may be necessary to enable Taiwan to maintain a sufficient self-defense capability."
• Government Information Office (Taiwan) "Taiwan's 2011 tax revenues rose 8.8 percent year on year to a record high of NT$1.76 trillion (US$59.83 billion), spurred by increased business and income tax collections."

So recent English language reliable sources refer to the modern political entity as "Taiwan" (see also this list of sources) to such a degree that it is no longer controversial to do so. As evidence that the term "Taiwan" is widely used to include the smaller islands, and not just the main island, one could compare Google search results, such as in the following case of Penghu: "Penghu, Taiwan" (~191,000 hits), "Penghu, Republic of China" (~411 hits). Per WP:CONCEPTDAB, the article titled "Taiwan" should be about the broad concept of "Taiwan", and not just the main island. Mlm42 (talk) 23:26, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Proposal co-written by:

• Jpech95 (talk · contribs)
• Kauffner (talk · contribs)
• Chipmunkdavis (talk · contribs)
• Mlm42 (talk · contribs)
• Jiang (talk · contribs)

Responses

State whether you support or oppose this proposal. Please do not respond to other people's posts here; use the "Discussion" subsection below. Thanks.

Support

1. Support - Albeit very very reluctantly. All these arguments are getting nowhere, and it's not right to have a China (PRC) article and a Republic of China (ROC) article, so the overwhelming usage of "Taiwan" of which I was already aware, gives me no reason to neutrally oppose the move.--Tærkast (Discuss) 23:36, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
2. Support 100% support for this move to 100% neutrality. The name Republic Of China is the politically loaded one. The vast majority of those who use the name Taiwan for the whole country have no interest in and often not even any knowledge of the local political issues. Oh, and it's obviously the common name. HiLo48 (talk) 00:26, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
3. Support. The most important titling criteria is recognizability, listed first in WP:NAMINGCRITERIA. The Google results for "Republic of China" -wikipedia suggests that a high percentage of those who search for the term "Republic of China" are looking for information regarding the Chinese government, i.e. they do not identify the term ROC with Taiwan. Vastly more readers search for "Taiwan" than for "Republic of China", according to Insights. Kauffner (talk) 00:30, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
4. Support Wikipedia policy on article titles suggests that the common name should take priority over neutrality or accuracy considerations, and that an article should be located at where readers most likely expect to find it. I am supporting this proposal because people searching for the WikiProject Countries template will seek it at Taiwan and not Republic of China. Wikipedia policy on article titles should be distinguished from policy on article text: while supporting this proposal, I would strongly oppose a proposal to replace mentions of "Republic of China" in article text with "Taiwan" outright in instances where doing so would sacrifice the accuracy of the text.--Jiang (talk) 00:56, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
5. support per WP:COMMONNAME, both as the by far the most common use of "Taiwan" is for the country, and by far the commonest way to refer to the ROC is using that name. The current name is far less widely known and so confusing to many readers. It's not more or less neutral than "Republic of China", just a matter of common English usage.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 01:26, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
6. Support per WP:COMMONNAME and other comments immediately above. Wikipedia's use of "Republic of China" instead of the common name is pedantic at best and obfuscatory at worst. Just to provide an example that a disinterested reader might encounter before visiting Wikipedia for further info. The article "Ma Ying-jeou, Taiwan’s pro-China president, wins reelection from the Washington Post, a widely-read, mainstream English-language publication, which is a typical full-length article reporting the recent election results, does not mention "Republic of China" as the name of the country at all. —  AjaxSmack  02:03, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
7. Support for all the reasons above and anything I've said for the 8+ years this has been argued about. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
8. Support per everyone above. A clear-cut application of WP:COMMONNAME, in my opinion. I♦A 03:34, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
9. Support - I think we should use common name according to WP:COMMONNAME. --Makecat_Talk 05:01, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
10. Support (albeit reluctantly) in order to break the deadlock and move things forward. However, using the move as an excuse to unilaterally change all references to the Republic of China (e.g. President of the ROC to President of Taiwan) will be strongly opposed. In addition, I encourage all editors involved to chip in Jpech95's Taiwan draft article to ensure a smooth transition which content is acceptable to most. Lastly, all editors involved should start working on refining or renewing the WP:NC-TW guidelines so as to prevent more disputes over titles, referencing and thereof from occurring again. Raiolu (talk) 06:52, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
11. Support per WP:COMMONNAME, making ROC into something like the Kingdom of Netherlands and the fifth French Republic is a really good solution iForce= 10:05, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
12. Support. The fact that the modern country/state (precise status perhaps to be defined) centred on Taiwan island is overwhelmingly known as "Taiwan" - and not Republic of China or any variation thereof - in every serious reference work, and in media and scholarship, is indisputable. In the absence of any significant reason in this case for us to ignore WP practice of placing countries at their common, short-form name, Taiwain it is. And we don't even need to debate this on a technical or analytical level - greater and more numerous minds have long since done that, and the results are in. N-HH talk/edits 10:56, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
13. Support Reference to WP:COMMONNAME has been made already. We don't have to use a country's full or formal title. For example, I live in the United Kingdom. The article title is not "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", because "United Kingdom" is the common name in English. And that needs to be noted - COMMONNAME is about what is most commonly used in English by native English speakers. The fact Taiwan's official title is "Republic of China" doesn't matter. Furthermore, one should also note that whilst the country has not changed its name, this was a name imposed on it by the KMT. And arguably the name would have been changed if China did not threaten to go to war over it (and the US and other Taiwan-friendly nations didn't encourage it not to change its name). Even Taiwanese people very rarely refer to themselves as coming from the Republic of China and refer to coming from Taiwan. John Smith's (talk) 11:56, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
14. Support. I've been watching this proposal develop for a while and I fully support each of the proposed changes. WP:COMMONNAME is the strongest applicable policy. The name is not 'wrong' or inappropriate as some opponents have argued, as even the ROC Government Information Office uses 'Taiwan' to mean the country in its official press releases [9][10]. Also applicable is WP:POVTITLE, as even within Taiwan, the different political parties are divided on usage of both terms 'Republic of China' and 'Taiwan', relating to the ongoing independence matter. Finally, as our article on PRC was moved to its common name China after extensive discussion a few months ago, the ROC->Taiwan move is in line with our naming policies on consistency at WP:AT. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 21:05, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
15. Support. I strongly agree with the nomination. This move would make the title consistent with COMMONNAME and NPOV. Jenks24 (talk) 08:12, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
16. Support Republic of China isn't the WP:COMMONNAME for the country - Taiwan is. We don't generally use official names for any other country, we use the common names. While as a matter of process the Taiwan (disambiguation) move should occur first, and should have been allowed to be closed first, there is no reason for this not to be closed shortly after, that move isn't dependent on this one succeeding, and while if this move passes the other will be redundant I don't think that's a massive deal. With regards to publicising this move request, as long as WP:CANVASS is followed there is no issue with mentioning it to gain a wider consensus. Taiwan (or actually Nationalist China, which I've never seen used) is preferred by the AP Stylebook except where required for legal precision. Even in a field like accounting a Google for "Republic of China GAAP" gets a bunch of results about China, whereas a Google for "Taiwan GAAP" gets a lot of relevant results (e.g. http://www.iasplus.com/country/compare.htm). -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:15, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
17. Support per WP:COMMONNAME. The passport is actually a better argument for Taiwan as the common name. Why else would the passport include the name TAIWAN as well as REPUBLIC OF CHINA? Celestra (talk) 22:39, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
18. Support, naturaly. That's what it's called. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 06:35, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
19. Support For too many political reasons. There is no point in promoting ROC anymore, when the island doesn't even collectively see itself that way. They see themselves as an independently managed Taiwan more than anything. Benjwong (talk) 07:09, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
20. Support, common name. CharlieEchoTango (contact) 09:15, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
21. Support per WP:COMMONNAME. — JonC^ॐ 11:00, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
22. Support - "Taiwan" is the normal English name of this country, and it is clearly acknowledged as a valid name by the government of the ROC (see government website, national currency, national passport...). However, I agree with Raiolu above that the move shouldn't be an excuse to change all references to the Republic of China, especially in political context. mgeo talk 19:19, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
23. Support per WP:COMMONNAME, as it's more commonly known as Taiwan. GoodDay (talk) 22:05, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
24. Support as shown by nominators, Taiwan is clearly the common name. It would also be consistent with naming of the China article. Kildor (talk) 10:17, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
25. Support. Let's do what we can to try to reduce confusion. There is no good reason to not follow WP:COMMONNAME here. I think it is almost always to the detriment of readers when that central policy is chosen to be ignored. I think many readers currently get to the Taiwan article and think have actually found the article about the country which they were looking for. And similarly I think some of those who actually get the Republic of China article also get confused as they may think they have actually either gotten to the article about China or to an article about China before 1949. On the other hand I do think most know the difference between a political entity and a geographical. I don't think many reader who come to the Australia article either think country of Australia only consists of the Australian mainland, or that they are reading the article about only the continent. I also do not believe that any appeals to WP:NPOV are valid, because as I see it, the most neutral stance Wikipedia can take is to take no normative position on what the country should be called, but rather only rely on whatever our sources call the country (i.e. follow WP:UCN).TheFreeloader (talk) 14:16, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
26. Support, on the basis of WP:COMMONNAME. If voted down, then we probably ought to move China to People's Republic of China to keep things consistent. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 07:46, 26 February 2012 (UTC).
27. Weak support, I've been persuaded that the arguments in favour just outweigh those against, given that the articles in question are re-scoped and re-written appropriately. If this move is enacted however, as noted Taiwan (island) would be a bit of a WP:CONTENTFORK and it should be merged into the Taiwan article. LukeSurl ^{t c} 20:55, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
28. Support as this is the overwhelming WP:COMMONNAME usage. TDL (talk) 01:50, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
29. Support. Per NPOV, COMMONNAME, and in the interests of best serving our readers (the theory of least astonishment). If this is voted down, we should revisit the recent move of PRC to China, as it would be manifestly POV and confusing not to have somewhat parrallel articles for this concept.LedRush (talk) 16:32, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
30. Support. This type of overly PR and bureaucratic nonsense is why lots of good editors leave Wikipedia. Seriously, when is the last time you've heard someone in real life refer to Taiwan as the Republic of China? I'd be willing to bet that most people who aren't aware of the PRC/ROC "conflict" would probably think of mainland China if someone was to mention the ROC. The fact the first line of this article reads The Republic of China (ROC), commonly known as Taiwan clearly admits that it doesn't follow the common name policy. Do U(knome)? ^yes..._{or no} 03:09, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
31. Support. I understand the opposition, but our job is not to shape or influence the world outside of WP, but to reflect it. And, for better or for worse, the name most commonly used out there to refer to the topic of this article is Taiwan. Also, to be consistent with the PRC → China move. --Born2cycle (talk) 21:00, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
32. Support Today in 2012 the state is commonly known as Taiwan and the dispute little known; using "Republic of China" creates far too much confusion and goes against WP:COMMONNAME. Timrollpickering (talk) 21:34, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
33. Support. I guess it will always be a tricky thing with this place in the world of politics, but by COMMONNAME usage it's overwhelmingly Taiwan. I'm not sure I've ever heard people call it anything else. We could then put in parenths (Official name - Republic of China). Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:35, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
34. Support. WP:COMMONNAME is quite clear and the evidence in this case is conclusive. --Taivo (talk) 21:45, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose as inconsistent with WP:NC-TW. The NC-TW principles were challenged when an activist, who evidently found the "Text should not imply that Taiwan is a part of the People's Republic of China" stuff too restrictive, called for a review of them. Views came in supporting the status quo and the activists, apparently not happy with the direction the wind was blowing, starting deleting some of them. In the end, there was a 28 to 18 conclusion that the NC-TW principles represented consensus which, at a minimum, ought to have meant no consensus which in turn generally means a default keep, but the minority with the axe to grind took it upon themselves to delete the principles anyway citing WP:NOTAVOTE. The activist that had first called for a review then moved the deleted guideline to a separate page and titled it "This is a failed proposal." "Failed proposal" is a highly misleading characterization in my view as it implies a history quite at odds with the actual history of NC-TW and this ongoing mischief is going to be further encouraged if the editing community does not alert itself to this background to the question at hand. Previous steps in the activist campaign have been used to excuse additional steps such that this will undoubtedly be cited as a precedent for all sorts of dubious content changes. This is more than just a move proposal that can be considered in isolation. I might add that the common name argument is not determinative since if it were, "United States" should redirect to "U.S." or "US" or "USA" rather than the other way around.--Brian Dell (talk) 09:07, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
2. Oppose - I am also concerned about the propriety of the procedures being followed here; Has this proposal been adequately publicised? I believe it should have been flagged well in advance, and then opened for comment on a fixed flagged date. As it stands, I could well have missed that this poll was even going on. 86.42.28.118 (talk) 10:39, 19 February 2012 (UTC)— 86.42.28.118 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
3. Oppose - Not least due to the ongoing move request at Taiwan (disambiguation) and the complete lack of reassurance that content at the new Taiwan article must not, apart from a brief mention in the intro, include any information on those islands which are not part of Taiwan Province, ROC. This is not to mention the inappropriate WP:CONTENTFORK (namely a full article at a separate title, Taiwan (island)) or that the move will fail to be precise, a required for WP:AT, or that there is no primary topic for the term "Taiwan", or something in the real world far more grave and dangerous that were to occur if this proposal were enacted. Also of note is the complete dissonance and lack of harmony amongst those involved in this proposal: Kanguole on one side advocates for brief inclusion of ROC 1912–1949 history at [[Taiwan]], while the others, as far as I know, are mute about this. Due to the gap in specific details that should address the subtleties of this issue (which hardly any supporters of this move are aware of or even willing to acknowledge), this proposal is the only failed one. Also, I echo Benlisquare's concerns regarding the promises some above made during the PRC->China move. GotR ^Talk 23:04, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
4. Oppose - A change based on common name alone would make "ROC" and "Taiwan" feed into the same article about the political entity now governing Taiwan and previously having governed the mainland. But the proposal also seeks to change the content of the ROC article such that it (a) exists in parallel to the new Taiwan article and (b) contains only a short summary of developments since 1949, which casts doubt about the continued existence of the ROC. The ROC still exists and has not changed its name. All official documents in Taiwan still bear the name ROC. Procedurally, the seven day voting period is much too short for Wikipedia. Most Wikipedia contributors do not check discussion pages once every seven days. Voting should be open for at least 30 to 60 days for ample participation. There is no urgency for this vote. NumbiGate (talk) 16:31, 19 February 2012 (UTC) (passport image evidence moved to discussion section below, due to it making the response section harder to read at lower screen widths - TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 20:10, 19 February 2012 (UTC))
5. Oppose: Regarding WP:COMMONNAME, I suggest disregarding it per WP:IAR since citing it to support a move to Taiwan opens another dozen can of worms. A title under "Taiwan" can suggest various negative euphemisms, from both sides of the cross-strait politial spectrum, whilst ROC is the de jure name of the sovereign state. Might I add, at the time of the PRC to China move, those in support often made the reassurance that "the move wouldn't affect the state of the Republic of China article"; keeping this in mind, how can one trust the assurances made by those saying that this move to Taiwan wouldn't affect articles such as President of the Republic of China? Fool me once, and its your doing, fool me twice, and its my doing. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 01:35, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
6. Oppose. First, one of the reason why there are so many materials calling Republic of China as Taiwan is that it is promoted by countries that having closer relationship with People's Republic of China which they don't want to anger PRC so they just call that as Taiwan, following this naming method might not be a neutral move. Also, relationship of Taiwan to Republic of China differ from relationship of Netherlands to Republic of Netherlands or France to France Fifth Republic. Furthermore, no more calling it as Republic of China or Taiwan or even Republic of China (Taiwan) the name is still relativelyb short unlike the full name of the UK, which make it not that necessary to make the change. At the same time, neglecting that should it be called as Taiwan, I think it would be better to move Republic of China to Taiwan (country) leaving the Taiwan as a page that users can choose to view content about the island or the country if they type Taiwan in www.wikipedia.org (btw why all opposing vote and supporting vote are in the same section?) C933103 (talk) 19:04, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
7. Oppose; the subject differs partially from the geographical location it is presently located within, that is the Island of Taiwan (formerly known as Formosa). Although it is a Rump State, and some consider a Government in Exile, the subject is greater than the geographical area that it presently governs. Changing to the name would, IMHO, be violating WP:RECENT given that the general use of the word China for the People's Republic of China in the United States didn't begin until after the United States changed who it recognized as the government of China, keeping with the One China Policy. I Support the present arrangement where there is an article about the Island under the namespace Taiwan, and there is a separate article about the government under Republic of China. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 22:01, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
8. Oppose The purpose and scope of the proposed resulting rump Republic of China article (compared against the proposed Taiwan article) is very problematic with regards to what the intended distinction between them is supposed to be, considering the goal of minimizing content duplication. --Cybercobra (talk) 03:07, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
9. Oppose The official name of the state is the ROC. Taiwan merely refers to the island. Should the United States of America be moved to US or America? The term Taiwan also has a political motive in that it is pro-separatist. Using the official Republic of China name is neutral. --TheAznSensation (talk) 05:39, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
10. Oppose Lots of people disagreed with the meaning. It should not move to Taiwan, but on my support vote in Talk:Taiwan (disambiguation), there is no primary topic on the word "Taiwan". Republic of China is still the article name like Republic of Ireland for Ireland itself, Republic of the Congo and Democratic Republic of the Congo for Congo, as for DRC, Zaire was the late 20th century era of the said country. ApprenticeFan ^work 08:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
11. Very Strong Oppose Wow, 7 days? Are you joking? Is that a bad joke that should be deleted nonsense? That is an unspeakably brief time period for a move of this magnitude. Put on the brakes, people! Give it 30 days. Ling.Nut3 (talk) 10:16, 22 February 2012 (UTC) Also commits assault and battery on WP:NPOV, since "Taiwan" is a pro-Independence usage (as is Formosa) Ling.Nut3 (talk) 04:57, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
12. Oppose. WP:Common name does not apply here: ROC lays claim to all of China, not just Taiwan and its surrounding islands which it currently controls. Unlike "China"="PRC" which is an arguable case of common usage, in common English usage there is a clear divide between ROC the political entity, and Taiwan the geographical, ethnic and cultural identity. Deryck C. 22:56, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
13. Strong oppose. Not surprisingly, yet another attempt from the "supporters" to pass a vote by discussing among themselves and trying to avoid attention from the rest of the Wikipedia community. This will not work; the vast majority of users who are active in this area are vehemently opposed to such a move. Even the majority of people who would be sympathetic to having "Taiwan" as the title of the country article would be appalled by the idea of moving the entire ROC to Taiwan. See archives 17-18 for my rationale for opposing this move. JimSukwutput 08:36, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
14. Oppose The Taiwan Islands, the area presently controlled by the ROC and the area claimed by the ROC are quite different. Stuartyeates (talk) 09:11, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
15. Oppose, as per WP:NPOV and Wikipedia:TITLE#Deciding_on_an_article_title: Titles usually use names and terms that are precise, but only as precise as necessary to identify the topic of the article unambiguously. I think the move would create some ambiguity, beside the risk of being percived non-neutral.--Pseudois (talk) 13:24, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
16. Oppose As per user:NumbiGate: "A change based on common name alone would make "ROC" and "Taiwan" feed into the same article about the political entity now governing Taiwan and previously having governed the mainland. But the proposal also seeks to change the content of the ROC article such that it (a) exists in parallel to the new Taiwan article and (b) contains only a short summary of developments since 1949, which casts doubt about the continued existence of the ROC. The ROC still exists and has not changed its name. All official documents in Taiwan still bear the name ROC". 23x2 (talk) 18:04, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
17. Oppose as this is a self-defining entity. More importantly, RoC specifically doesn't go by "Taiwan" as a common name (if anything, it would probably prefer "China" as a common name, just as the PRC does) except when forced to due to non-recognition issues (i.e. the passport statement below). Additionally, the arguments about the Kingdom of the Netherlands (Taiwan isn't a constituent state of RoC, only a primary part of its geography) or French Fifth Republic (an article about a form of government). Aslbsl (talk) 14:16, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
18. Oppose. Would cause more confusion than it would clear. Common name fosters ignorance in this case. Nightw 07:48, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Other

1. This is complicated, because it's much more than a move proposal (see #Proposed distribution of content under titles below). The proposed content for "Taiwan" gives a comprehensive coverage of the country at the location readers will expect to find it, but the proposed "Taiwan (island)" would be a redundant CONTENTFORK. Therefore I prefer the #Alternative proposal below, which would do the former but not the latter. Kanguole 22:29, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
2. Sort-of Support - Republic of China should not be moved to Taiwan, but Taiwan should be moved to Taiwan (island) and Taiwan should redirect to Republic of China. It would avoid confusion, but still have Republic of China in the same place. Liam987 15:31, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
3. I am a Canadian residing in Asia. I had always thought Taiwan and China are strictly two countries with only neighbour ties just like United States and Canada. After reading the whole debate I tend to agree with Liam's idea. If that isnt adopted I would oppose the whole proposal. 210.17.196.24 (talk) 11:52, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
4. While I take no position on the RM itself, being unfamiliar with the various issues, I do strongly object to those who claim it must be moved to satisfy WP:COMMONNAME. This provision is a relative late-comer to WP:TITLE, and the idea that the "most common" name has to be used has been pushed by one editor in particular (User:Born2cycle), often against a lot of pushback. The provision still allows for considerable flexibility in naming: "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined by reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources. ... When there are several names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others." So, if Taiwan has problems, sticking with the official name, which is also commonly used, is not a problem per WP:COMMONNAME as sensibly interpreted. Also, I strongly object to the process whereby so many of the "oppose" votes have been moved to "challenged"; the basis for these challenges seems worse than flimsy in many cases, and they ought to be moved back. Dicklyon (talk) 02:22, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Challenged

• Oppose. The ROC hasn't yet been transformed into an independent Taiwanese state. Neither the Kuomintang nor the DPP, nor the US nor the EU, would agree with this. Commonname does not apply per Npov and Arbcom re ROI. 119.237.197.247 (talk) 10:21, 18 February 2012 (UTC) Struck as a sock of User:Instantnood

• 

  Passport jacket used by Taiwanese independence supporters. Quemoy, Wuchiu, Matsu, Pratas and Taiping are missing, although the Pescadores, Green Island and Orchid Island appears.

  

  One of the proposed flags of Taiwan. Quemoy, Wuchiu, Matsu, Pratas and Taiping are missing, although the Pescadores, Green Island and Orchid Island appears.

  Oppose per Brian Dell, GotR, 119.237.197.247 and TechnoSymbiosis. Not even Taiwanese independence advocates agree that the Republic of China is now Taiwan. They call for a new constitution and a new flag. And they call for pulling out from Quemoy and Matsu. And they pulled out the navy from Pratas and Taiping islands. It was President Ma who redispatch the navy to these islands. Independence supporters call for secession of Taiwan, the Pescadores, Green Island and Orchid Island from the ROC, or handing over Quemoy and Matsu to the People's Republic of China. They don't put Quemoy and Matsu and the southern islands on their proposed flag or their passport jackets. It's apparent that the ROC is not yet replaced or displaced by a Taiwanese state. Furthermore, calling the ROC "Taiwan" is WP:RECENTISM. 147.8.102.172 (talk) 08:36, 21 February 2012 (UTC) blocked for ban evasion
• Oppose 24.22.232.117 (talk) 11:59, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose. Republic of China is still used by the government and why some of us can decide it should be disappeared?-Cobrachen (talk) 16:21, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose 74.82.68.144 (talk) 11:13, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose. refer to WP:TITLE#Deciding_on_an_article_title, "Titles usually use names and terms that are precise", you should know the government of Taiwan is still called ROC, not Taiwan; in fact ROC is still exist. And if you move the article, there will be great possibility that people may misunderstand the attitude of enwiki towards ROC... I think I don't need to mention that it violates the policy WP:POV. I think you'd better think twice please. - Dr. Cravix _{♪Eternal Reminiscence} 14:46, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose. Changing ROC to Taiwan is just ignorant and blatantly incorrect! The official name is ROC, but Taiwan is the name of the provincial island. Westerners don't really understand this, and it's easier to just call it Taiwan. However in Mandarin Chinese, which is the spoken language, and on the official passports it says 中華民國 which means "nation of overseas Chinese." Please drop the subject don't change it just because you like calling it Taiwan. that's weak, wikipedia — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brianju (talk • contribs)
• Oppose Per everyone above.Speaklived (talk) 09:11, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose per Dr Cravix and Deryck. CantoneseWiki 11:45, 27 February 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by CantoneseWiki (talk • contribs)
• I agree unless this move fails to close with a consensus, as doing parallel moves at exactly the same time is impractical. Additionally isn't it POV to use a different naming scheme for one of the world's most important countries than any other important country. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:01, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose per Brian and above. Taiwan is part but not the whole of the ROC. It's pars pro toto. 58.152.80.75 (talk) 14:05, 21 February 2012 (UTC) Sock of User:Instantnood
• Oppose. Per WP:RECENTISM, ArbCom re Macedonia and Ireland, Leftcowrightcoast, and Dr Crevix. 110.4.4.106 (talk) 13:48, 27 February 2012 (UTC)Struck as an [sock]
• support as the common name in English. I am a native English speaker in HK. 203.184.138.132 (talk) 19:52, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

• inb4 double standards. I thought currently the entire city of Hong Kong is Instantnood apparently. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 09:02, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

• Ben, there is at least one Hong Kong oppose !vote that clearly isn't User:Instantnood which isn't struck and is merely marked as an SPA. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:10, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

• If you read the article it already exists the the state that you are objecting to. Beyond some background to the current state (which I see no reason to remove at all) the Republic of China on the mainland is covered by Republic of China (1912-1949). -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:10, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
  • The article currently describes the Republic of China in the present tense which suggests that the ROC is valid and existing. The article at Republic of China (1912-1949) has no bearing on the current validity and existence of the ROC. I believe that is what 23x2 is concerned about with the proposal to maintain a separate ROC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NumbiGate (talk • contribs) 21:51, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
• Keep the status quo. 219.76.91.156 (talk) 08:29, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose. From the dawn of Wikipedia, the ROC has been referred to as the ROC. If it's not broken, don't "fix" it. There is no such thing as a "Taiwan country." The Republic of China is an independent state with de jure territorial claims covering all of China, not just Taiwan.--68.186.161.12 (talk) 01:47, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
• Strongest oppose. Taiwan is only part of the ROC. We should avoid all possible illusion that it has already been independent from the ROC as and in the name of Taiwan. 59.188.42.32 (talk) 11:32, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
• Agree with the partial move from Taiwan to Taiwan (island), and redirect Taiwan to ROC. 202.64.205.42 (talk) 08:40, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose This debate seems to mirror one at Talk:Taiwan_(disambiguation)#Move_request which was closed on the 25 Feb as No Consensus. I suspect a similar result here.--Salix (talk): 17:47, 26 February 2012 (UTC)Challenged because it doesn't make a relevant argument to the topic and this in't a WP:VOTE. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:22, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

1. Oppose, Republic of China is country name and it not same as Taiwan. Taiwan just a island and NOT a country. --Suguru@Musashi (talk) 02:47, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

Proposed distribution of content under titles

• Although labelled as a move, this proposal involves a substantial re-arrangement of content, so I'll focus on the proposed distribution of content under titles. Based on the drafts supplied, the proposed end products are:
  • A new Taiwan article formed by combining the current Taiwan article with most of the content of the current Republic of China article, including the {{infobox country}}. That would produce an article covering the full range of aspects of the country, just like every other country article on Wikipedia, and would thus be a massive improvement over the current split between two articles. Calling this article "Taiwan" would bring us in line with usage in the great majority of reliable English language sources, as well as paper encyclopedias.
  • A new Republic of China article containing the remainder of the current Republic of China article, including the republic up to 1949, a summary of the republic since then, and the modern territorial claims. Such an article would cover the common aspects of the republic throughout its history. There's a possibility of overlap with History of the Republic of China, but it may be possible to distinguish them.
  • A new Taiwan (island) article containing approximately the contents of the current Taiwan article. Since the same text also forms part of the new "Taiwan" article, that would be a redundant content fork, especially since there is also a Geography of Taiwan article, following the normal summary-style structure used for country articles.

In short, the proposed redistribution looks good, except for the proposed "Taiwan (island)" article, which seems to be a pointless content fork. Kanguole 01:41, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

We have offered Kingdom of the Netherlands and French Fifth Republic as models for the new Republic of China article, but I envision a stronger history focus than either of these two model articles. There would be possibility of overlap with not only History of the Republic of China but with the countries template at Taiwan. Summary style should be used to limit any unavoidable degree of overlap.

There is no reason for Taiwan (island) to exist. Consider this proposal the equivalent of a merge of Republic of China into Taiwan. Before late-2003, the countries template resided at Taiwan before I moved it over to Republic of China and narrowed the focus of the Taiwan article to be just about the island. From 2003 until sometime around 2010, the Republic of China article sought to cover both the pre-1949 historical entity and the post-1949 existing entity, with corresponding subsections most sections, before someone went along and deleted the pre-1949 material. Though the intended results are the same, when considering the most logical way to preserve edit attribution, I believe a merge would be more appropriate than a move.--Jiang (talk) 01:57, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

@Kanguole, thanks for the summary; yes, that draft article for "Taiwan (island)" would need to be trimmed quite a bit, to avoid unnecessary duplication of content. I think the focus of this RM should be the "ROC -> Taiwan" part of the proposal, which is the more likely to be disputed / controversial. Mlm42 (talk) 02:01, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I concur regarding the pointlessness of the proposed (island) article. --Cybercobra (talk) 05:19, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

• My main problem here is with the new Republic of China article. It seems like it will duplicate large swathes of content from the new Taiwan article, and I don't find the suggested articles to be good models. The Netherlands example doesn't seem relevant at all; can someone explain the intended analogy/similarity? --Cybercobra (talk) 05:16, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree that unnecessary duplication of content should be avoided. I suppose the analogy in the Netherlands example, is that the main "country" article is The Netherlands, while the article Kingdom of the Netherlands is an article about a closely related (and often informally equated) concept, which is not as widely used, and is less likely to be sought after by readers (see also this section). Beyond that, I don't think you should read too much into the analogy. Mlm42 (talk) 05:46, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure how we can avoid content duplication. Under WP:CONCEPTDAB, Republic of China cannot be made into a redirect, as was proposed under the previous move proposal, and must continue to exist as a separate article. Assuming Taiwan (island) will not exist for long, the amount of overlap between the future Republic of China and Taiwan should be a bit less than that currently between these two articles, so the total mix of content duplication should be reduced by the current proposal.--Jiang (talk) 08:20, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

As you say above, there's no reason for a duplicative "Taiwan (island)" to exist at all, and the proposed change is most simply described as merging most of the current Republic of China article into the current Taiwan article. Regarding the residual "Republic of China" article, how would you see that differing from the current content of History of the Republic of China? Kanguole 10:57, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm wondering about both those points as well. Between a refactored Taiwan article (which will inevitably be to a large degree about the main island) and the existing ROC history and government articles (which both deal with the present day), my thoughts would be that we have everything covered. Having said that, I wouldn't outright object to separate (and possibly fairly short) island and ROC articles, and having them may help bat off complainers in respect of the main issue. Btw I'll take this opportunity to say thanks to everyone who worked constructively on the detail of this, as opposed to simply fulminating on the various talk pages, which has been my preferred contribution. N-HH talk/edits 11:06, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

IMO, "Republic of China" should refer to the historical state. History of the Republic of China is a more reasonable target than Taiwan. "History of Foo" is certainly not a common name article title. It is normally overflow for an article at the "Foo" base name. So History of the Republic of China can get recreated when there is too much material for one article. Kauffner (talk) 19:16, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

The Republic of China still exist on Taiwan. The government, the constitution, the military, their symbols, their principles is all part of the Republic of China. This proposal might replace the Republic of China with common name but calling the ROC a historical government/state is out of the question.98.110.211.50 (talk) 20:13, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

UnderWP:CONTENTFORK, the Republic of China article must refer to the Republic of China from 1912 to the present, with use of summary style. I'm not sure if you're proposing to purge all post-1949 material, but under policy that would be unacceptable.--Jiang (talk) 22:14, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Replies

The Republic of China is the official name for the government on Taiwan. The proposal creates unnecessary doubt about the existence of the ROC. (image and caption added by NumbiGate (talk) 16:31, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

• (Reply to 86.42.28.118) Publicize this move request wherever you want, but if you're going to oppose it, do so on more substantive grounds. Shrigley (talk) 16:44, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
• (Reply to GotR) Out of curiosity, what is the "something in the real world far more grave and dangerous that were to occur if this proposal were enacted"? I think it's very narcissistic of us to assume that what we do in this move will have dangerous real-life geopolitical consequences. In any case, Wikipedia policies don't allow us to stop valid, policy-based moves for that reason. And isn't it great that people with "complete dissonance and lack of harmony" on other issues can come together to draft such a move proposal? This is collaborative editing at its finest. Shrigley (talk) 16:44, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Well I'm not so sure geopolitical events that actually occur have no effect on moves here. If the PRC happened to successfully invade and annex Taiwan (and even make it part of Fujian) tomorrow, this proposal would have zero standing.
  • And sure, in general it may be collaborative editing at its finest, but the shifting of article content is of utmost importance in merges, which is what this proposal appears to be, and specificities (obv. apart from individual sentences, images) should be ironed out before a proposal comes out. As solid it may seem to others at first glance, this proposal is actually piggishly sloppy for the reasons I gave above. Excellent work (not really), Jpech. GotR ^Talk 17:15, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
• (Reply to NumbiGate.) Maybe you're referring to Chinese-language documents that bear the name ROC, but even Taiwan government publications use "Taiwan" more commonly than "Republic of China" in English. By the way, this is not a vote, and your contribution will be judged by the strength of your arguments. Shrigley (talk) 16:44, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Shrigley, did you see the passport cover I posted above? It says "Republic of China" in English on the cover. In official English language documents, the ROC government still refers to itself as such. Simply download any of these visa applications and see for yourself: [11] It would be extremely difficult for you to back up the statement that "Taiwan" is used more commonly than "ROC" in official documents. Virtually every official government document in English bears ROC on it somewhere. NumbiGate (talk) 17:42, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I moved the passport into the discussion section, Numbi, just for readability reasons - on low screen widths the image throws out the bullet point votes and makes it really difficult to see who added the image. If you disagree with this, please feel free to revert. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 20:13, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The British passport says "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" on it - our article is at United Kingdom. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:12, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The passport is actually a better argument for Taiwan as the common name. Why else would Taiwan be printed there if the official name were also the common name? Celestra (talk) 22:47, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with that. I was thinking at first that's why the picture was given. Why would Taiwan be on there for the Republic of China passport if it didn't associate. And I'm pretty sure citizens who don't live on the island still get a Taiwan passport, so right there is shows WP:COMMONNAME for the entire country, not just the island (or at least the territory directly controled by the ROC). JPECH95 02:33, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I am opposed to the proposal insofar as it moves the current ROC article into Taiwan and leaves a separate dangling ROC article. A merger based on common name alone would merge the two together. Eraserhead, your reference to the UK article is not on point. In the article entitled United Kingdom, the lede restates the full official name of the United Kingdom -- United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland; there is no separate article called "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"-- UK and UKGBNI feed into the same article. NumbiGate (talk) 05:48, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Republic of China passport article said In September 2003, under the administration of President Chen Shui-bian, the word "Taiwan" was added to the ROC passport cover in English (but not in Chinese). The premier when asked during question time in the Parliament stated that this was to facilitate travel and did not change the name of the nation. C933103 (talk) 19:20, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

(Reply to Benlisquare)I just want to add to this to say that I was not aware of said promise that ROC would not be changed, but I do know that the people there are not the same people supporting it here, and I will fight along side you to see that President of the ROC does NOT move to President of Taiwan, because that is a political office refering directly to the government (Republic of China), just as President of the People's Republic of China has remained where it is. JPECH95 01:41, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I haven't looked at the move over there recently, and I am sure that this was influenced very much by it, although from what I've seen from others, even before August people have wanted to have the move. Regardless, this promise, whether or not it existed, was doubtfully made by the same people that are on here now (it certainly wasn't me). JPECH95 02:49, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I should point out that the PRC -> China did not directly affect this article. This is a separate discussion; though it was probably inspired by that move. In any case, there was certainly no promise that this page couldn't be moved. Mlm42 (talk) 02:21, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Let's inject less feelings and more facts into the discussion. There was no "trust" broken, because nobody promised—or ever had the authority to promise—that the ROC set of articles would never change their titles. What was said was that moving "People's Republic of China" to "China" doesn't necessarily mean that a move from "Republic of China" to "Taiwan" is immediately necessary. Some users are disturbed that we have both a "China" article for the PRC, and a "Republic of China" article for the ROC. I am not one of those users, which is why I haven't (yet) thrown my support behind this proposal. Also, anyone could propose a successful move from President of the Republic of China to President of Taiwan regardless of the name of this article, because that's what the post is called in reliable English-language sources. Shrigley (talk) 02:32, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Okay then, that's settled (would have been much easier for me just to have looked at the move), no one ever promised anything. Waste of time then. And I'm going to agree that we need less feelings and more facts, but of course now that you say that, as it's evident in the past, that's going to just cause more reason for people to argue about nonsence. And I'm just stating that in my opinion, if someone does try to prove Pres/ROC to Pres/Taiwan, I will oppose it, not to say that they themselves can't do that, obviously they have the right to do that, I was just stating my opinion for future reference. JPECH95 02:49, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

(Reply to TheAznSensation)"Taiwan" is the common name, just as "United States" or "US" is for the United States of America. Furthermore, arguably the use of ROC is not neutral as it implies that Taiwan is a part of China. Even China refers to Taiwan as "Taiwan" because they won't accept it's a de jure state. So by using Taiwan we would actually be avoiding politics. John Smith's (talk) 07:33, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The People's Republic of China prefers the title Republic of China over the Republic of Taiwan. Beside that both the Republic of China and the People's Republic of China view Taiwan belongs to China. PRC views Taiwan as a renegade province not a sovereign state. Calling "Taiwan a sovereign state" means complete independence from China and the abandonment of the ROC's claims to the Mainland. As TheAznSensation said a political move by the Taiwanese independence supporters support the claim "Taiwan is a soveriegn state" which is still a sensitive political matter that the Taiwanese people have yet to resolve for themselves.Typhoonstorm95 (talk) 15:41, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Saying that Beijing refers "ROC" is original research. You will only see references to "Taiwan" in the official Chinese media. John Smith's (talk) 17:36, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

(Edit to John Smith) I didn't say Beijing "refer" Taiwan as ROC, I said Beijing "prefers" the title ROC over the Republic of Taiwan.Typhoonstorm95 (talk) 18:38, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

That's still original research. John Smith's (talk) 21:27, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Again PRC views Taiwan as a renegade province and the ROC is only a title to them instead a sovereign state. The Anti-Secession Law says very clearly if Taiwan declares independence from China the PRC will invade it. The ROC's claims to the Mainland means Taiwan is not independent from China which contradicts Jpech95's proposal as he says "Taiwan is a sovereign state".Typhoonstorm95 (talk) 18:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

We're not proposing a "Republic of Taiwan". Discussing that misses the entier point of what Jpech95 was saying. There is an entity here; this article calls it the Republic of China, the vast majority of the English world calls it Taiwan. Currently, the lead of this article describes this entity as a "unitary sovereign state". If you think disagree that "The Republic of China (ROC), commonly known as Taiwan (see below), is a unitary sovereign state", then that is a content decision that has absolutely nothing to do with this move request. CMD (talk) 18:24, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Commonly doesn't interferes with the fact that the Republic of China is the sovereign state. This proposal is calling "Taiwan a sovereign state" is wrong because first the Taiwanese people have yet to decide their fate for themselves which this proposal is and second this proposal has ignored the ROC's claims to the China and history. I haven't missed the point of this move because I have not involved myself in the vote. Only proving that TheAznSensation's point is correct.Typhoonstorm95 (talk) 20:53, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

You're missing the point that the state is commonly called Taiwan. It means the same thing as "Republic of China" does in this article. "The Republic of China is a sovereign state" has exactly the same meaning, and validity, as "Taiwan is a sovereign state", and vice versa. This is exactly what common name does. CMD (talk) 18:54, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Then what is the point of Taiwanese independence?Typhoonstorm95 (talk) 20:53, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

De jure independence. John Smith's (talk) 21:27, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Per that article, its point is "to formally establish the Republic of Taiwan...form a Taiwanese national identity, reject unification and One country, two systems...and obtaining international recognition as a sovereign state." In summary, a political movement to advocate for legal change. Which isn't important in this titling discussion. CMD (talk) 21:25, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It's relevant because it's a further example of a subtlety overrun by driving the WP:COMMONNAME truck through every yellow light encountered without so much as slowing down. The common name for the Republic of Ireland is Ireland yet the Wikipedia community understands that that does not settle the issue. I believe the community would have retitled this long-standing article prior to 2012 if this were so straightforward.--Brian Dell (talk) 21:51, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware that title was decided on a vote, and it was several years ago (and discussion was until pretty recently prohibited by Arbcom. Its not exactly a great example. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:53, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

If it's a truck it's one that protects its metaphorical cargo (the article?) from pointless political and legal minefields. And again, Ireland the state is disambiguated from the Ireland the island, which was determined to be the primary and broader topic. Also, please see that as an example of how "Republic of Ireland" hasn't replaced "Ireland" in every instance of the article text, something some people here think we are trying to do with this article. CMD (talk) 22:00, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

In response to Brian's comment about "Ireland" being the common name for Republic of Ireland, the reason that the RoI article is not called by that name is that part of Ireland is part of the UK. It would be very confusing if Ireland were the name for the country when it's also the name for a divided island. Whereas the whole of Taiwan is under control of one government. John Smith's (talk) 22:38, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

• (Reply to JimSukwutput)In reply to Jim, that is an incredibly bad faith comment. All the relevant projects and the Wikipedia Pump have been informed. How on earth can you claim that there has been any attempt to hide this from the community? You should withdraw that comment, it does your argument no favours. John Smith's (talk) 11:09, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Plus you seem to say that you might be OK with having Taiwan as the "country" article, while opposing this move. But that's the whole point - this page purports to be about the country, but is titled "ROC", a name rarely used for it these days. That's what we're trying to finally sort out, in line with every other serious reference source in 2012. N-HH talk/edits 16:07, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

• (Reply to Stuartyates) I simply don't understand the objection. The Taiwanese government does not actively claim any territory other than what it currently controls, apart from a few minor island disputes. The territory that the constitution claims is irrelevant, as it's a historical document that has not been edited due to diplomatic wrangles. That's not a reason to not refer to the country as Taiwan. John Smith's (talk) 11:25, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. And I do wish someone opposing would address the fundamental point and do so with a serious, substantive reply - why does every single other [?] decent reference work and encyclopedia in 2012 talk about "Taiwan" when dealing with the country but Wikipedia refer to "ROC"? Why? They all cope with the complexity and history under that name; why can't we? And, regardless of any theorising and debate about that question, our policies of course very clearly say we should simply follow that precedent. N-HH talk/edits 11:42, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

• Reply to Pseudois (and others who have made similar points). In what way exactly is "Republic of China" more neutral and less ambiguous than "Taiwan"? N-HH talk/edits 13:54, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Less ambiguous, as Taiwan may refer to Taiwan island (the way I for example use the concept most of the time), Taiwan Province (ROC) or Taiwan Province (PRC). Regarding neutrality, I wrote that there is a "risk of being percieved non-neutral" (I don't have a personal opinion on it). I think the 18 pages of discussion on this talk page are the best example of recurrent neutrality issues. I hope this helps clarify my previous comment.--Pseudois (talk) 15:19, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, but as ever with island nations where 99% of the landmass is the main island, it's a blurred line with no such clear difference; and surely the unqualfied use of "Taiwan" as a specific reference to the main island, to the specific exclusion of outlying territories, is pretty rare? That's what all the sources suggest - that Taiwan the state/country is the primary topic. Few titles are entirely ambiguous - but surely the far bigger ambiguity is with the current title, which might lead people to think this page is about China as most people know and understand it? As for neutrality, this title - used by pretty much nobody except the Taiwanese government, and even then only occasionally - carries the implication that the Taiwan government is the legitimate government of all China. Surely a title used by every major reference work and world body is more neutral than a title used only by the entity itself, with that implication? The eighteen pages of discussion are merely evidence of the extent to which WP process allows endless bickering over the blindingly obvious, unfortunately. The rest of the world has already done the hard work on this and plumped for "Taiwan", but we seem intent on revisiting it, as if we somehow know better. N-HH talk/edits 15:42, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

This is your point of view. I respect your opinion although I don't agree with various assumptions you have made to come to such conclusions. Anyway, WP is not a forum. Thank you,--Pseudois (talk) 16:40, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

I know Wikipedia is not a forum. I'm not using it as one, either in the broadest sense or in the specific sense of making personal or original assertions on this topic. I just look at what the world calls things and call on that; and I can assure you it is not simply my "point of view" that everyone else calls this place Taiwan. It's the opposition to a change that seems to be based more on what those editors personally think it ought to be called, discussion about Taiwanese Blue-Green politics, and grand claims about what the word Taiwan really, really means. None of them have shown us any outside, reliable sources to back up those claims or why, even, these points are relevant. By contrast, the move based on the simple application of WP policies on naming and is supported by clear evidence of terminology from a variety of sources. N-HH talk/edits 17:01, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

• Reply to Pseudois. I don't really understand your point. Far more ambiguity is created by the current status quo given that most people have never heard of the Republic of China, and might assume that it was confused with the country commonly known as China. Additionally the claim of non-neutrality seems a bit strange. Is the use of the word "Scotland" non-neutral with regards to the possibility of Scottish independence? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 15:29, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand your point either. Do you mean that most readers who come to this page by typing "Republic of China" have never heard about the "Republic of China"? So why would they type "Republic of China"? I don't understand your analogy with Scotland either. Is Scotland an island? Is there a scottish government claiming to be the legitimate goverment for the whole UK? I don't think this move proposal has anything to do with Taiwan idenpendance movements. The risk of some people perceiving the proposed move as non-neutral is more than obvious. The point is as simple as that: we have to make a choice between WP:Commonname and WP:NPOV. I am favoring WP:NPOV in this particular case, but don't have any personal opinion on the topic itself.--Pseudois (talk) 16:40, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

People will come across this page - and references to it - in myriad ways besides typing "Republic of China" into the search box. And it will, undoubtedly, be confusing to many of them, at least initially. The Scotland point - if I can presume to respond here - is simply as an illustration that a name is not necessarily intrinsically loaded in the context of an independence/sovereignty dispute, as some claim "Taiwan" is. And no, we do not have to "make a choice" between common name and npov. This is the entirely false issue that is being pushed by some opposers - 1) no one has presented any serious evidence that Taiwan is not neutral (or, at least, as neutral as any other name - especially "Republic of China"). Could you help with that?; and 2) the policy on common name, and the subsequent section in wp:title, in any event has provisions accounting for neutrality or the purported lack of it. I suggest you read it. N-HH talk/edits 01:04, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

It is amazing how many people seem to completely forget about the existence of WP:POVTITLE which makes claims of NPOV against the move an rather weak argument.

With regards to claiming all of China, Taiwan doesn't really do that anymore to any remotely serious degree. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:36, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

• (Reply to Salix)First, this is a different move request from the one at Taiwan disambig. Some people raised similar arguments, but the impact was quite different. Second, I don't understand why you're opposing the move. I think people here are frequently forgetting that they need to explain their votes and link it to policy. John Smith's (talk) 22:54, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
• (Reply to Aslbsl)That sounds good - except that in reality Taiwanese sources refer to the People's Republic as "China" these days - see Talk:China/Archive_14#Sources for more details.
• Additionally I don't believe we usually name things according to what the target wants rather than the WP:COMMONNAME - see Armenian Genocide which I'm sure the Turks object to very strongly. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:48, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
  • "except that in reality Taiwanese sources refer to the People's Republic as "China" these days" - (?) I thought I said as much. Re: Armenian Genocide, that isn't a parallel case per se. Obviously RoC's self-designation is not the end all and be all. But Taiwan isn't either of the names that it prefers. It is actually the name that it opposes when possible. Aslbsl (talk) 18:45, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
    • Plenty of evidence has been presented which shows that in many circumstances the government perfectly happily uses the name Taiwan. As does the rest of the world, incidentally. You'd have to provide strong evidence that it "opposes when possible" (although I'm sure some individuals would). CMD (talk) 19:13, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
      • An example, take a look at: http://www.gio.gov.tw/ for example: "Taiwan's 2011 tax revenues rose 8.8 percent year on year to a record high of NT$1.76 trillion (US$59.83 billion), spurred by increased business and income tax collections" -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:54, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
    • You're right. My assumptions were incorrect. It seems that the gov't isn't as vociferous in its opposition as I thought, though the point made about the passport (and that I remember from elsewhere) shows me that their opposition does exist on some level. I still oppose on the grounds of the page moves and separations, conflating geography, gov't etc., but I acknowledge that while problematic, those are theoretically surmountable issues. Thanks for your time. Aslbsl (talk) 03:28, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
      • With regards to the passport they generally contain the legal and full name of the country rather than the common name. The UK passport says "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" on it. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:48, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
• reply to Night w that's a two part assertion, without any justification, evidence or reference to policy. I can't see how "Republic of China", given both its similarity to "People's Republic of China" and very rare usage, is less confusing than "Taiwan", which isn't really very confusing at all anyway. Or that use of Taiwan "fosters ignorance", given that it is the name used by pretty much every serious and authoritative source - or indeed that supposedly "fostering ignorance" is one of the listed criteria for overruling a clear case of common name. N-HH talk/edits 11:46, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Which is why its important that this is decided by consensus and so that blind assertions are given less weight than better thought though points. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:48, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Relationship to Naming Conventions

Dollars to donuts after this move is made, people will start wanting to change President of ROC to President of Taiwan under WP:COMMONNAME, it's the way it's going to go; there are already plenty of references to Ma Ying-jeou as "President of Taiwan". This will not end well where NPOV is concerned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.40.129.169 (talk) 17:17, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

If "there are already plenty of references to Ma Ying-jeou as President of Taiwan", how can it "not end well"? Wikipedia reflects what the sources say, and that's the whole point here. The name Taiwan is completely NPOV. Most of the people around the world who use that name have no interest in and often have no awareness of the politics you are presumably concerned about, so using that name cannot be a POV position. One cannot take a biased position on something when one neither knows nor cares about it. HiLo48 (talk) 20:03, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

After People's Republic of China was merged into China, the Naming Conventions were rewritten so that there would be no wholesale move of articles from "...of the People's Republic of China" to "...of China". It is possible to support this proposal and oppose those moves as I have done to reflect usage by reliable sources. For example, using Taiwan is more appropriate when referring to the political entity geographically while using Republic of China is more appropriate as part of the name of institutions and documents.--Jiang (talk) 22:14, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

And I had said this myself just an hour ago. I entirely agree. Just because we want to move ROC to Taiwan just not mean that the President of ROC gets moved to President of Taiwan. That's evident from what happened in China's move. And if anyone does try to move President to ROC to President of Taiwan, or anything else akin to that, I would oppose that for one reason: Searching for the President of Taiwan and President of ROC are the same, searching for Taiwan and ROC are different, and the article already says that the Republic of China is Taiwan. Besides that, I would still use the term Republic of China in a specifically-governmentally related way, which is evident at the proposal's article. JPECH95 22:35, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

On what grounds would you oppose a change from "President of the Republic of China" to "President of Taiwan" as per WP:COMMONNAME? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.40.129.169 (talk) 00:30, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

• Comment. It is common for an RM to go against an earlier consensus. In fact, that is usually the reason they are proposed. The result of this RM will be the new consensus. Kauffner (talk) 00:51, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Of course. But the requested move proposal you co-wrote gives no indication of the view you've stated here that a consequence of this would be an over-write of NC-TW. And John Smith's says below that this move decision is going to be used to support changes across Wikipedia. It is this sort of lack of disclosure that should be objected to whatever the merits of the particular point that is being advanced under these tactics. I should add that I don't believe that Jiang's "people searching for the WikiProject Countries template will seek it at Taiwan and not Republic of China" has weight because that can be done over there without a name change here. Whether the rest of Wikipedia uses Taiwan or ROC can be dealt with on a case by case basis on the rest of Wikipedia. The double bracket Republic of China bar Taiwan double bracket formula can be used wherever necessary.--Brian Dell (talk) 01:18, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Brian. While a consensus at this RM may be used in future discussions, that is different from automatically making other changes without further discussion. This RM is only about these articles, and has no direct implications for other articles. It may lead to other changes, but they will need to be discussed on a case-by-case basis, after this RM is closed. Mlm42 (talk) 01:34, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

• Comment. Further to Kauffner's comment, the naming conventions are largely derived from how articles are titled in Wikipedia. If we refer to the state as "Republic of China", naturally that will affect how it is referred to more widely in Wikipedia. If, however, the title is moved to "Taiwan", the naming conventions will be changed. You don't put the cart before the horse. John Smith's (talk) 01:11, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

• (Someone deleted my comments. I'm reposting) Dollars to donuts after this move is made, people will start wanting to change President of ROC to President of Taiwan under WP:COMMONNAME, it's the way it's going to go; there are already plenty of references to Ma Ying-jeou as "President of Taiwan". This will not end well where NPOV is concerned. — Preceding — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.40.129.169 (talk) 01:57, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

• Comment: I have proposed a replacement for WP:NC-TW: Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Chinese)#Proposed replacement for WP:NC-TW. Please comment and carry on the discussion there.--Jiang (talk) 02:26, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

• (reply to Brian Dell moved from Response section.) There's nothing mysterious about the background, it's visible in an IP editor's extensive alteration of the poll results and close decision here, by a Hong Kong IP user. Of the 28 votes you think contributed to the conclusion, 11 were from single-purpose IP addresses from Hong Kong ISPs, almost none of which had edited on anything outside that specific discussion, and that are known to be used heavily by a particular user who is banned from the project. Those sockpuppet votes were removed in due course per WP:DUCK as they hold no weight. At the time of the close, the conclusion was 14 to 15, not 28 to 18. Your statement that a "no consensus" result on the question of whether a section has consensus to remain is absurd; if there's no consensus that a section has consensus to remain, it means it has no consensus to remain. Policies and guidelines have higher standards than articles. From WP:No consensus: "in a discussion regarding a section of policy or guideline, "no consensus" means that a proposed section should not be added. If the discussion is about a section already in the policy, that section should be removed". TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 09:49, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I note on Mlm42's (the editor who introduced this Requested Move asking who supported the entirely one-sided argument he presented) Talk page a call to "just ignore all IP editors from Hong Kong (as we have at Talk:China and other places)." The problem with this is that it is the job of the invited previously uninvolved closing admin to decide how to weight, not self-appointed vigilantes. None of the arguments against NC-TW explained just what wrong with it such that it needed to go. Mlm42 argued over there that "it seems apparent from the discussion at [another article] that..." while over here Mlm42 declares, in a reply to me earlier in this section, that this RM is "only about" this article as opposed to the rest of Wikipedia. In other words there was just an appeal to keep sliding down the slippery slope over there, while over here I'm told there's no slope to be concerned about. See here for an example of a properly closed discussion, and specifically the "there being no consensus for deletion, the page is kept by default" part. That essay you link to is simply out in left field, as was pointed out on that page's Talk page. In any case, deleting "Text should not imply that Taiwan is a part of the People's Republic of China" was a clear violation of WP:NPOV such that I do not accept your implication that a pillar of Wikipedia can be ignored not merely by a consensus to ignore but even by the absence of consensus to respect.--Brian Dell (talk) 11:00, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Your opinion on the validity is noted, as well as the single objection to that section made three years ago. Clearly multiple editors disagree with you. Secondly, your characterisation of editors who participated in the discussion as "activists" and "vigilantes" betrays your bias in the matter and undermines the objectivity of your argument. Thirdly, your NPOV argument is a non-sequitor: the only way simply removing an instruction could introduce POV into the guideline is if there was another point of view there that now has undue weight. What other point of view regarding the naming of Taiwan exists in our current guideline? TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 19:46, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The fact that NC-TW was recreated on its own page as a "failed proposal" suggests that even those who want it deleted considered it more analogous to a page than a section but, more importantly, I'd note that, contrary to your contention that "multiple editors disagree," the number of editors disagreeing with the single objector on that Talk page is even lower than one (as in zero!). Unlike you, however, I'll grant that this may be due to the obscurity of the essay. Compare the number people who have edited that essay since 2007 with a real policy. If you can get that essay, and in particular that section, elevated to policy I would concede the point, but I don't believe there is even a modest chance of that happening given the way policy discussions have been working for years. If deleting and editing what others have written on a Talk page without permission is not vigilantism show me at Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#Others.27_comments where this is authorized. What's the other POV? That Wikipedia should adopt an asymmetric policy with respect to PRC claims to ROC controlled territory and vice versa. When I asked for "an explanation" for why "Text should not imply that Taiwan is a part of the People's Republic of China" was deleted, I was told that "'Taiwan is not part of the PRC' is a minority position" and warned against "delegitimizing China's [that is, the PRC's] claims and administrative structure [re Taiwan]"--Brian Dell (talk) 22:24, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I didn't say where it is that editors disagree with your interpretation, so pointing to the essay talk page is largely meaningless. For clarity, editors disagreed with your interpretation when they supported the removal of the text from the guideline pending further discussion, an action that was performed or reinstated by more than one editor. I have no reason to address your misdirection about essays and policies as it has no relevance to the discussion. Deleting or striking talk page comments is covered in the second bullet point in the very link you provided: "Removing prohibited material such as libel, personal details, or violations of copyright, living persons or banning policies" (emphasis mine). Instantnood is a banned user who has extensive IP activity trying to circumvent his ban. Preponderance of evidence indicated that the vast majority of IP addresses who commented (11, per my comment above) were from Hong Kong IP ranges that are known to be used by that banned editor, many other addresses of which have been blocked previously. The comments were altered in line with our talk page guideline. You're free to disagree with the conclusion that multiple editors came to regarding the evidence, but you have no cause whatsoever to accuse people of vigilantism. I suggest you go and brush up on WP:AGF and I strongly suggest you retract your accusations. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 22:47, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree that that essay "has no relevance." I would think there would not have been so many complaints about the manipulation of that Talk page if the measures taken there were as uncontroversial as you suggest. Blocking and banning etc should be left to a closing admin who can do an authorized investigation using tools like Wikipedia:CheckUser.--Brian Dell (talk) 23:14, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I plainly said it was your misdirection that had no relevance. Stop being combative and intentionally misreading comments, Brian, it is not productive and does more to damage your argument than it does to support it. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 23:23, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

• (another reply to Brian Dell.) I object to being called "an activist" on this issue, and consider it a personal attack. First of all, I was not always opposed to NC-TW; I even helped to move article titles to comply with the standard. The big problem with NC-TW came when People's Republic of China was moved to China. NC-TW was based on the premise that "both the ROC and PRC have equal claim to China". When this claim came under scrutiny in the China move, we discovered that this idea had no basis in English-language reliable sources. That's the context in which many users, and not just me, came to question the NC-TW guideline. When we discounted the disruption of the sockpuppets of community-banned user Instantnood, the "no consensus to keep" result is clear. I didn't cite any lines of the guideline that I opposed when I asked for a review, so your idea that I asked for a review because I singularly found "Taiwan is a part of..." "too restrictive" is entirely speculative, and also a personal attack. This move does nothing to slip down a slope of assuming PRC sovereignty over Taiwan; in fact, by equating Taiwan with the ROC instead of keeping it as an island of ambiguous sovereignty, it climbs up the slope and makes such assumptions more difficult. Shrigley (talk) 16:44, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Elsewhere I asked for an explanation for why you and others wanted "Text should not imply that Taiwan is a part of the People's Republic of China" deleted and you indicated that you wanted claims that Taiwan is a "part of the PRC" given the green light (as I just noted above). It's the segue from the asymmetric ordinary usage environment to this substantively asymmetric position with regard to the claims of the PRC and the ROC to the territory effectively controlled by the other that constitutes "activism." As long as the "ambiguous sovereignty" of the ROC remains in the real world it ought to remain equally ambiguous on Wikipedia.--Brian Dell (talk) 22:42, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Brian, if you insist on this incivility, you give me no reason to respond to any more of your comments. Unfounded accusations are a form of personal attack, and it has been suggested to you by more than one editor here that your comments regarding vigilantism and activism are unfounded accusations. If you have any intention whatsoever to participate in good faith discussion of this matter, please cease using accusatory language. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 22:54, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

• (reply to RightCowLeftCoast) The United States changed which "China" it recognised over 30 years ago. That's a long time ago. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:03, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

• (reply to TheAznSensation)We don't necessarily use official names as titles and no, Taiwan does not just refer to an island, please read the nomination. mgeo talk 09:00, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Observation on IP editor 86.42.28.118

Can I just point out that 86.42.28.118 has been canvassing for feedback on the move request purely on China/Chinese talk pages (it looks like he's trying to muster opposition by his selective messages). He also started editing suspiciously recently. Should he be classed as an SPA like 119.237.197.247? John Smith's (talk) 12:01, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The ISP for 86.42.28.118 is Eircom in Ireland, so not HK like 119.237.197.247. Kauffner (talk) 12:16, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I meant if he should be tagged as an SPA - his location isn't especially relevant (is it)? Also I just wanted alert people to the canvassing, which I felt was quite blatant. John Smith's (talk) 12:21, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Other than commenting at Talk:Hong Kong which I think is borderline the other locations they commented at seem perfectly reasonable. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:48, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Lots of heat, zero light CMD (talk) 23:57, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Because of the amount of garbage posted from many "old time" IP addresses on this topic it's harder than usual to respect any content from an IP address. I've given up trying to differentiate between them. My mind just doesn't work that way. They just merge into a confusing blur. Humans give their children names rather than numbers for good reason. If there are new IP editors contributing here I strongly and firmly recommend registering very quickly so that their posts gain some attention and respect. HiLo48 (talk) 07:28, 20 February 2012 (UTC) I won't respond to remarks that are not in keeping with Wikipedia principle of assuming good faith etc; Nor will I respond to yet more attacks at IP editors generally. Specificially, this is what I posted above in relation to the ongoing vote: Oppose - I am also concerned about the propriety of the procedures being followed here; Has this proposal been adequately publicised? I believe it should have been flagged well in advance, and then opened for comment on a fixed flagged date. As it stands, I could well have missed that this poll was even going on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.178.193 (talk • contribs) @HiLo48: "I've given up trying to differentiate between them. My mind just doesn't work that way." - That's just like saying, "My wallet has been stolen buy a black man. Ever since, I've given up trying to differentiate between them." If you have trouble assuming good faith and engaging in the community in a decent and humanly manner, I suggest you either fix up your attitude issues, or leave altogether. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 12:09, 20 February 2012 (UTC) No, it's nothing like saying "My wallet has been stolen buy a black man. Ever since, I've given up trying to differentiate between them." I gave reasons for my difficulty. It's about numbers, not skin colour. Most people have skin, and names. Most don't have numbers as their primary identifier. I still haven't seen a good reason for an experienced editor not registering. BTW, to someone not familiar with them, Chinese characters aren't very good identifiers here on English Wikipedia either. HiLo48 (talk) 20:04, 20 February 2012 (UTC) HiLo48 many people around the world can read and understand English. You have been nothing but insulting to us, ROC supporters. The ones who went in an argument with you have never called you names or swear at you like you have. Respect our views in this sensitive matter.Typhoonstorm95 (talk) 20:26, 20 February 2012 (UTC) I think a name with Chinese characters is fine. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:05, 20 February 2012 (UTC) @HiLo48: So, in essence, a summary of your post. Because it's never your fault, right? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 23:39, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Back to the main issue at hand, the IP did not break any rules regarding WP:CANVASS. The purpose of a discussion like this is to gain input from the wider community. Posting on various article talkpages, WP:CHINA et cetera is fine, posting on specific editors' talk pages (especially those with partisan views) is not. For example, if the IP had posted on a dozen user talkpages of users known to be pro-ROC, then that is potentially a violation of the rules. Keep in mind that this move discussion isn't just for your super secret club. So far 80% of !votes are those who have posted in the ROC talkpage at one point in their life, and thus have the ROC talkpage on their watchlist; this is by no means "wider community discussion". Of additional note, the original wording by the IP was, to some variation of, "wider participation from the community is desirable, feel free to participate", not "HEY GUYS, VOTE OPPOSE, DO IT FOR FREEDOM THESE GUIZE R NAZIS". I don't see how that supports a particular side, nor how that qualifies for "gathering votes". -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 23:44, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Glad you think what I did was basically ok. I am curious. Why do you think the Hong Kong post is "borderline"? My logic was that it is a part of "Greater China" so to speak and so its editors could well be interested in what was proposed re the ROC article. Thanks. 86.42.178.193 (talk) 18:58, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Need to appropriately notify Wiki Community

Re the immediate above, obviously I rightly regarded this vote as requiring to be flagged. I flagged that a poll was going on (not asking people to vote one way or the other) on the Wikipedia Project China page (which naturally pertains to Taiwan); the PRC page as that too obviously relates to Taiwan and the Hong Kong page for the same reason....Ma Ying Jeou was even born there. If there is an agreed list of places where this topic should be flagged, I would welcome that. 86.42.178.193 (talk) 11:14, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I would say that WikiProject:Taiwan should be notified, and its probably not unreasonable to mention it on the village pump assuming that there have been discussions around this topic as long they have at China. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:39, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Of note the Taiwan Wikiproject has been notified. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:47, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Glad you think what I did was basically ok. I am curious. Why do you think the Hong Kong post is "borderline"? My logic was that it is a part of "Greater China" so to speak and so its editors could well be interested in what was proposed re the ROC article. Thanks. Agree that the Taiwan project page should be notified - and it has been. 86.42.178.193 (talk) 19:00, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

IP blocked for ban evasion

Other articles and categories This move request has attracted a lot of "voters" who only care about the title of this single article. They don't care about the content of this article and related articles, and the titles of other articles. Yes this article can be easily renamed, but that's going to leave a whole mess to the rest of Wikipedia. It's going to create a lot of ambiguous situations where no term will be precise and accurate. No one has yet to suggest any practical solution to prevent the mess. 147.8.102.172 (talk) 08:36, 21 February 2012 (UTC) (IP blocked for ban evasion) Credibility of the proposal User:Jpech95/taiwan/Taiwan got lots of errors even in the lede. The island of Taiwan had never been ruled by the Ming dynasty (but only a Ming loyalist after Ming had fallen). And the size given, 36,008 km², is for the island of Taiwan but not the entire ROC. The credibility of the proposal is in doubt. (Furthermore, nominators of move requests don't normally vote. By the same token the co-movers of this move request should not vote.) 147.8.102.172 (talk) 08:36, 21 February 2012 (UTC) (IP blocked for ban evasion) Reason being for the area, is we want Taiwan to represent the country, not the island. As for Taiwan not being ruled by the Ming, it never says that it was, but rather says that it was ruled by Koxinga, the Ming loyalist. JPECH95 12:14, 21 February 2012 (UTC) The draft says "Besides the island of Taiwan, the state also governs Penghu, Quemoy, Matsu, and other minor islands, a total area of 36,008 km²", and "The Dutch East India Company had a trading post on Taiwan in the 17th century. It was later ruled by China's Ming and Qing dynasties.". The hard facts are that Ming dynasty never extended its governance to the main island of Taiwan (they stopped at Penghu), and 36,008 is the figure for Taiwan including Penghu. The figure for Taiwan, Penghu, Quemoy, Matsu, Pratas, etc., is 36,192. If this is going to be an article on the country, but not just Taiwan including Penghu, then 36,192 should be used. I have not gone through the article. But with such errors within the first two paragraphs of the lede of the draft, as as demonstrated by statements like "Reason being for the area, is we want Taiwan to represent the country, not the island.", it's doubtful whether the co-nominator of the move request actually understands the complex nature of the subject matter. We should stop this move request. We should go through RFC first and get back to the move request procedure according to the RFC results. 147.8.102.108 (talk) 12:47, 21 February 2012 (UTC) WP:Recentism It's rather apparent that WP:Recentism is disregarded in this move request. 147.8.102.172 (talk) 08:36, 21 February 2012 (UTC) The lede of WP:Recentism reads "Recentism is writing or editing without a long-term, historical view, thereby inflating the importance of a topic that has received recent public attention.." 147.8.102.108 (talk) 12:59, 21 February 2012 (UTC) I think the move proposal is consistent with the advice of that essay. Mlm42 (talk) 17:09, 21 February 2012 (UTC) ArbCom rulings re: Ireland and Macedonia Do they apply here? As a matter of principle they obviously should. 147.8.102.172 (talk) 08:36, 21 February 2012 (UTC) (IP blocked for ban evasion) Both were to do with a commonname conflict leading to an unclear WP:Primary topic. We don't face that problem here. CMD (talk) 12:07, 21 February 2012 (UTC) The Ireland case is relevant for comparison since since part of the present dispute is over Island-vs-state nomenclature, but the resolution was basically holding a structured RfC, which is what's already happening here. --Cybercobra (talk) 12:18, 21 February 2012 (UTC) The Macedonia case is relevant too since part of the dispute was over cultural-geographical region vs country. Taiwan here is a cultural-geographical region that excludes Quemoy (including Wuchiu) and Matsu. Neither island groups were part of the 1895 cession to Japan and therefore were never part of the Japanese colony. Matsu and Wuchiu got different languages from Taiwan. In my opinion we should stop this move request. We should first go through RFC or ArbCom, then back to move request according to RFC decision or ArbCom's ruling. 147.8.102.108 (talk) 12:54, 21 February 2012 (UTC) There's a far greater difference between the two Irelands than the two Taiwans, and in the Ireland case the island covers a greater area (conceptdab-like material), as opposed to this, where it covers a smaller area. As seen below, there are even calls to merge the two Taiwan articles together. As for Macedonia, much of the dispute was classic Greek objections to one country taking the title of a much greater area, and contrasting with their province of Macedonia, which does not overlap with the country. Again the country is a smaller area than the other meanings, and there is no article for some abstract "cultural-geographical region", but merely articles for regions which have had that title throughout history, all disambiguated. Either way, arbcom is a last resort, often to solve massive widespread edit wars. There's no need to go there, and it makes absolutely no sense to have an RFC first. CMD (talk) 13:19, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

.

Sources that distinguish the "Republic of China" from Taiwan (island or physical locale)

Numerous comments have been made about how English language sources rarely refer to Taiwan (state) as the Republic of China or that sources make no distinction between the Taiwan (island) and Republic of China. These commenters should review English language documents prepared by or for the government of the ROC or state-owned companies of the ROC. In those documents, especially laws, regulations, contracts and legal documents, these distinctions are readily made.

1. For example, the official English language version of the Constitution of the Republic of China refers to the country only as the Republic of China; this includes amendments to the Constitution enacted in the 1990s, e.g. the provision on recall: "The final recall must be passed by more than one-half of the valid ballots in a vote in which more than one-half of the electorate in the free area of the Republic of China takes part."
2. The ROC Income Tax Act, amended June 25, 2003: "For any individual having income from sources in the Republic of China, consolidated income tax shall be levied in accordance with this Act on his income derived from sources in the Republic of China."
3. The country's English language visa application website makes the distinction between ROC and Taiwan the place. -- "Information on Republic of China Visitor Visas" -- "Foreign nationals, who hold ordinary passports or other legal travel documents and who intend to stay in Taiwan for no more than six months for the purposes of transit; tour; visit relatives; undertake visits; undertake inspection tours; attend international conferences; conduct business; pursue short-term study; undertake short-term employment; undertake short-term missionary work; and engage in other activities in the ROC as approved by MOFA."
4. The Cross-Strait Relations Law, enacted December 29, 2003 uses "Taiwan Area" and "Mainland Area" to refer to distinct regions governed and/or claimed by the ROC. "Those who, between November 2, 1987 and February 19, 2001, went to the Mainland Area and continuously resided there for over four years and consequently became People of the Mainland Area, but who previously had household registrations in the Taiwan Area and do not have household registrations in the Mainland Area or do not hold passports issued by the Mainland Area, may apply to recover their status as People of the Taiwan Area and return to reside permanently in Taiwan." Taiwan is used here as a place, not a regime. Taiwan Area is used to define the region controlled by the ROC including the island of Taiwan but also surrounding islands. When referring to regimes, the law makes distinctions between ROC, the state, the Mainland, an unrecognized regime, and foreign entities that are not part of the ROC: "Vessels of the Republic of China as referred to in Articles 28 and 28-1 of the Act shall mean the vessels listed under Article 2 of the Law of Ships; Mainland vessels and civil aircraft referred to in Paragraph 1 of Article 29 of the Act shall mean the vessels and civil aircraft registered in the Mainland Area, excluding military vessels and aircraft; Foreign vessels and civil aircraft referred to in Paragraph 1 of Article 30 of the Act shall mean the vessels and aircraft registered at a place other than the Taiwan Area or the Mainland Area."
5. Consider the English language stock share offering prospectus for Chunghwa Telecom prepared by Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley and UBS Investment Bank in 2006. The cover page of the prospectus describes Chunghwa Telecom as "a company limited by shares in the Republic of China" and says "the American depositary shares" sold in the offering "are not being offered in the Republic of China." Page 3, of the prospectus, goes on to say: All references to "Taiwan" are to the island of Taiwan and other areas under the effective control of the Republic of China. All references to "the government" or "the Republic of China government" are to the government of the Republic of China. All references to the "National Communications Commission" are to the National Communications Commission of the Republic of China. All references to the "Securities and Futures Bureau" are to the Securities and Futures Bureau of the Financial Supervisory Commission of the Republic of China or its predecessors as applicable." "ROC GAAP" means the generally accepted accounting principles of the Republic of China We publish our consolidated financial statements in New Taiwan dollars, the lawful currency of the Republic of China. For more recent examples, see the Company's annual filing, dated April 2011 filed with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.
6. Under Taiwan Relations Act enacted by the United States government in 1979 defines the term Taiwan as a geographic entity, as people residing in the geographic entity, and as a political entity in terms of the Republic of China: "the term "Taiwan" includes, as the context may require, the islands of Taiwan and the Pescadores, the people on those islands, corporations and other entities and associations created or organized under the laws applied on those islands, and the governing authorities on Taiwan recognized by the United States as the Republic of China prior to January 1, 1979, and any successor governing authorities (including political subdivisions, agencies, and instrumentalities thereof)." Note how the Act refers to the government as the "governing authorities" on Taiwan. This because the U.S. government can no longer recognize the ROC government as such. But the governing authorities on the island of Taiwan has not changed its name and has not been replaced by any successor governing authorities. It remains the Republic of China. In fact, in subsequent court filings in the United States, the formal name of the state is still used see, e.g., Liu v. Republic of China, 892 F.2d 1419, 1424 (9th Cir. 1989).

NumbiGate (talk) 21:27, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Absolutely none of that is a meaningful argument against the simple fact that in the native English speaking world the country is almost universally known as Taiwan, which is the primary point here. HiLo48 (talk) 21:44, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Kinda depends on what you read right? If you read something other than the news, you might learning something new. Just kidding. The list above goes to show (1) the Republic of China remains in use in authoritative English sources and (2) The Republic of China still calls itself such in its official documents. If you think the more commonly read media reports should determine the article title, I'm not going to stop you. But my objection remains against the dangling ROC (based on the Netherlands and Fifth Republic) that would somehow remain after the proposed merge. That would suggest the ROC doesn't exist in its current form, which would be misleading. NumbiGate (talk) 22:07, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

The news is for the laymen proles that aren't experts in the main topic. Legal documents are the black magic of lawyers and policymakers that are actually written with the intention that they are read by people who know their stuff. I too would use Paralithodes camtschaticus if I were writing a scientific journal, whilst using Red king crab if I was the owner of a seafood shop. I too would use ntoskrnl.exe if I were writing a report to my boss if I was working in the IT industry, but use Windows NT kernel if I were writing an article for, I dunno, Engadget or something. I'm an undergraduate physiotherapy student; whilst I would use the term six-pack when talking with friends at the gym, I'd use the term rectus abdominis when I'm in class looking at dissected corpses. "Taiwan" is the term for the proles, "ROC" is the technical term. Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia, and it can afford to be more technical than other print and electronic media. And HiLo48, I know I've said this point before, inb4 "stop using irrelevant examples, it's distracting from the main point" like last time; I think the differentiation between technicality and commonality is very important. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 03:31, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Benlisquare, that's misleading. Some specific articles on species of animals use the Latin terms, but we also have articles on polar bears, giant pandas, etc. There is no rule on Wikipedia that the "technical term", such as you put it, has to be used. But if you want to move giant panda to Ailuropoda melanoleuca I suggest you get started... John Smith's (talk) 07:56, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I think most of these cases are the sort of thing where "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" would be used.

Additionally while in Chungwa telecom Republic of China is used pretty frequently, the term Taiwan, which is defined to be equivalent in the document seems to be used even more frequently.

I'm sure that on legal documents Bill Clinton's name is spelt out William Jefferson Clinton or William J Clinton. Our article is at Bill Clinton which is because we use the WP:COMMONNAME not the technical name. While with species we do quite often use the technical name, that isn't how we roll with countries where in the vast majority of cases we use the common name. In fact this is the only exception that hasn't been to Arbcom. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 09:20, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Bill Clinton on Wikipedia doesn't have another article dangling at William Jefferson Clinton or another one entitled Bill Clinton (1946-1992) (aka the Arkansas years). The proposal here plans to have separate Taiwan and ROC articles after the merge, which is the point of my opposition. NumbiGate (talk) 16:50, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

The situation we are in at the moment is the equivalent of the "Republic of China" article being "Bill Clinton the post presidential years", with "Republic of China (1912 to 1949)" covering "Bill Clinton president of the United States". -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:25, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Agreed that these do not prove much - I don't think there's ever been any dispute that on some occasions, especially in documents emanating from Taiwan itself, that ROC is used for the country/state that is the topic of this article, or that references to Taiwan can, occasionally, be to the island specifically; or indeed that ROC sometimes is used to refer to more of an overarching political/historical concept, above and beyond the rump state (which in fact is an argument in favour of renaming this particular article, but never mind). You never get unanimity in the use of any term. The point is about the overwhelming predominance of both a) "Taiwan" being the main term used when people want to refer to the country; and b) "Taiwan", when used, being a reference to the country not just the island. If people really want to trump or disprove that, they're going to have to provide some reputable "meta"-sources that analyse and assess usage, and explicitly confirm that Taiwan for the country is either minority usage or outright incorrect, rather than merely provide examples of usage that appear to contradict that assertion. That's what's being asked for here btw. N-HH talk/edits 11:50, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

ps: in any event, having reviewed them a little more closely, point 3 talks about "in Taiwan" (if it meant the island only, wouldn't it say "on Taiwan"?); points 5 & 6 seem rather clearly to demonstrate that (as in most general usage of course, as already demonstrated) Taiwan is very explicitly defined as being the wider geopolitical entity, not just the geographic island. N-HH talk/edits 12:12, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Also, re the "layman proles" argument. Wikipedia is for layman proles, not scientific or legal experts. Plus, the suggestion that sources such as the NYT, FT or Economist are casual or sloppy when it comes to terminology, or written by people who do not know what they are talking about, is just silly. As I've said elsewhere in this ranging argument, no, news sources do not definitively define usage of terminology and, especially at the tabloid end, their overall narrative language is not always suitable for an encyclopedia; but when it comes to the former, they're a pretty good guide as to common, general usage of the sort we should be looking for. And, in any event, it's not just the media that use China/Taiwan by an overwhelming majority. This is all really clutching at straws. N-HH talk/edits 09:52, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Alternative proposal

I would like to advance a simpler variant of the above proposal:

• merge the {{infobox country}} and post-1949 content of Republic of China into Taiwan, producing an article covering all aspects of the country (similar to User:Jpech95/taiwan/Taiwan, though with a brief subsection summarizing Republic of China (1912–1949))

The result would be the same as the above proposal, except that it would not leave a redundant WP:CONTENTFORK at "Taiwan (island)" (see #Proposed distribution of content under titles above). Kanguole 13:28, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm inclined to want to look at this idea further, Kanguole, but I think it would be best to deal with that after the main proposal above has been dealt with. The main thrust of the proposal is the ROC->Taiwan move and I think if we can get that performed first, it should be fairly easy to clean up any miscellanea afterwards. If the current proposal goes through I'm certainly interested in participating in a discussion on the '(island)' issue as I think your argument does merit further investigation. I just don't want to bog down the main proposal with what may end up being multiple 'alternate proposals', as other discussions I've participated in that do that end up with all of them failing just because the voting is so fractured. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 22:32, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with TechnoSymbiosos. As it stands, we have a country article here, and a theoretically-island article at Taiwan. This proposal shifts the country article to its commonname. The value of the island article (which is a rump article caused by splitting off country information, as far as I'm aware) is a separate discussion. It's one I'm happy to have (although perhaps after some respite!), but not one I would like to further complicate discussion here. CMD (talk) 00:52, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

No, we have half a country article at Republic of China, a government without a territory, and the other half at Taiwan. Your proposal above is to merge most of the former and all of the latter at "Taiwan", after a couple of moves. When you merge all of an article, you shouldn't leave a copy behind, as that creates a content fork. Kanguole 01:26, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

An unfortunately rather good assessment. However, while not fully completed, this page has the essence of a country article (ie it claims to be one). The island article tries not to be. The plan isn't to merge all of it, as that would be too much detail for the country article (although Economy is already a duplicate anyway), so (again theoretically) it wouldn't be a content fork so much as a Main article-type thingy. Once the move is done however, it would be worth seeing if the content there can stand on its own, or whether it belongs in Taiwan, Geography of Taiwan, or other applicable. CMD (talk) 01:49, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm just going by the drafts you've offered, and a content fork is what I see: there's no text in the Taiwan (island) draft that isn't also in the Taiwan draft. Kanguole 01:57, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I think "alternative" is the wrong word for this proposal. This is elaborating on the side issue of what happens to the lemma Taiwan (island) after the move. Moving ROC to Taiwan, and Taiwan to Taiwan (island), is no more a content fork than the current ROC/Taiwan situation. Of course, when content is copied from Taiwan (island) to Taiwan, it should be removed or altered so that the Taiwan (island) article is not simply duplicate content. Kauffner (talk) 02:24, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Then you have misunderstood: this proposal does not involve any move, and in particular does not involve putting anything at "Taiwan (island)". Kanguole 02:30, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Oic. You've now struck you're earlier "Support" for the move. Sorry I didn't keep up. I guess this proposal doesn't have much practical significance after all. Kauffner (talk) 03:53, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd just like to remind everyone (especially Kanguole) that the purpose of having the draft articles was to fix inconsistancies in the final articles, and I know overlap was a problem, now seeing WP:CONTENTFORK I see that this could be a problem, but still it's not that much of a problem as people want to make it seem, especially once we can determine what will go under which article. If we can all refer to the main topics of each of the articles proposed, it should be no problem. Am I understanding this correctly (remember I am still kinda new at this...) JPECH95 04:04, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The drafts are very helpful, as they give us a concrete idea of the result of this complex proposal. We can see clearly that the proposal is to turn two articles into three; they also show clearly that one of the three, Taiwan (island), is wholly redundant. Kanguole 09:35, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Tagging of "SPA"s

I'm seeing some horrible faith tagging going on here. User:Cobrachen is a long-term contributor on the Chinese Wikipedia. In fact, this user has been on Wikipedia longer than most of you have. Could users please not go trigger-happy with the {{spa}} tagging whenever you all see red links? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 03:45, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I removed the SPA tag, it doesn't seem consistent with the user's enwp contributions, though his sporadic editing and no obvious link to zhwp probably mean this was a good faith tagging error rather than bad faith as you imply. I also removed your inline response as you've said the same thing in this section here and responses aren't really intended in the voting section. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 04:10, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

That user has a total of 28 edits to English Wikipedia; the vote above was the user's first edit since another more request vote last August. It was not tagged in bad faith, because this user counts as a single-purpose account. Other language Wikipedia's have different policies and conventions, so edits there are about as relevant as contributions to any random website on the internet. It seems likely to me that Cobrachen is responding without a good knowledge of English Wikipedia's policies and conventions; that's why I tagged their vote. Mlm42 (talk) 04:17, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Unless a convincing argument is presented to do otherwise, I'm planning on re-tagging the account as an SPA. In other words, read WP:SPA, and tell me why this user doesn't qualify. Mlm42 (talk) 04:29, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Regardless of how many edits he has on EN Wiki, he has been a long term contributor on the Wikipedia project, which is a project that spans multiple languages. Calling this user an SPA is no more than an insult to him/her, due to the negative connotations of being an SPA. To some degree, it puts this person on the same level as the alleged User:Instantnood sockpuppets, and many users, unaware of Cobrachen's amazing contributions to the ZH Wikipedia, may actually be given the wrong idea. This user has been editing Wikipedia for a very long time, and has all the authority to express his opinion regarding a contentious issue on Wikipedia. This person has only made good-faith correction edits on the EN Wikipedia, and has deep knowledge of the policy-knowhow of Wikipedia having been here for so many years; I don't see why his contribution to this discussion is being shunned simply because he edits ZH Wikipedia more than EN Wikipedia. If I were to go to a non-English Wikipedia and participate in discussion regarding a contentious and significant issue that would potentially affect the main language Wikipedia that I come from, I too would expect that my word would be treated humanely and respectfully, and that I would not be discriminated based on how much I contribute to certain language Wikipedias. Keep in mind that what happens on EN Wikipedia affects all other language Wikipedias as well; the PRC to China move has caused similar moves on other Wikipedias, and whatever decision made here does have an effect on the ZH Wikipedia as well. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 05:06, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

28 edits is admittedly low, but it's over such a long period of time and a reasonably diverse range of topics that I don't think this is a clear cut SPA example, personally. SPA says "a time gap in edit history may be evidence that the person was referred to Wikipedia by an outside source, but it isn't evidence that the person is an SPA", and I think it's more likely that he may have been canvassed (as Schmucky edit-conflictedly mentioned before me) than that he's an SPA. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 04:52, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

The allegations of SPA within this instance are preposterous. Wikipedia projects use a universal account login system so that the same user authenticates to the English Wikipedia, English Wiktionary, and Chinese Wikipedia on the same account. What we see here does not meet the definition of a SPA, which is an account solely created for one purpose. I mean, do people even read the pages that they link to? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 05:13, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Did you mean to reply to someone else? I just said I don't think he is an SPA. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 05:23, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I was talking about this discussion in general, it wasn't directed towards you. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 05:24, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I do agree with the message you left on his zh-talk page suggesting he create an en-user page, by the way. This is probably a good idea, and linking to some details about his zh contributions would be useful. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 05:26, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree that we shouldn't tag here (and I think the tags for non-Hong Kong based IP's are dubious), we should be welcoming and respectful towards people from other projects. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:38, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

While I agree we should be welcoming, I want to make sure the closing admin is aware that a significant number of votes have come from users who have not contributed very much to the English Wikipedia, and are therefore are less likely to have this project's policies and conventions in mind. But the existence of this section is hopefully enough to alert them of that fact. Mlm42 (talk) 20:30, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Single-purpose account should be designated based on contributions to all Wikimedia projects, which at the end of the day all have the same reason for existence. Wikipedians should be discriminated against based on their contributions or the lack thereof, not the language of their contributions. I might add that if long time contributors to the Chinese Wikipedia think that just applying WP:COMMONNAME would constitute an oversimplication of the complexities and subtleties involved, this ought to be cause for pause for editors based on the other side of the world.--Brian Dell (talk) 23:10, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

First of all, how do you know that all or even the majority of these rarely editing contributors are experienced Wikipedians? You're making an assumption, possibly because they support your position. Second, a lot of the comments are just "oppose". There's no rationale, or if there is it's limited to "ROC = official name = best article title". That's not an argument against renaming. Third, and perhaps most importantly, you're not addressing the issue of canvassing. Why are these editors suddenly popping up here and all opposing the renaming? Doesn't it strike you as strange that none of these people are for renaming? John Smith's (talk) 23:33, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

"Doesn't it strike you as strange that none of these people are for renaming?" - User:Makecat is a user on the ZH Wiki, from the PRC (according to zh:User:Makecat), who has created 1 FA, 3 GAs, 69 DYKs, 414 created articles and 13675 total edits on the ZH Wiki, in addition to being a patroller and rollbacker on the ZH Wiki only (which suggests he has the most experience there), and predominantly edits ZH Wiki. This user has !voted in support of the move proposal. Therefore, by deductive reasoning, your hypothesis that all users from ZH Wiki are canvassed into voting against this proposal falls apart. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 01:36, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Makecat has been making various edits on en.wiki for over a year now. Not a prolific amount, but far more than Cobrachen and Cravix. Also, no-one has suggested every zh wiki user has been canvassed to oppose. What they have questioned is what brought the editors who seem to have very little to do with en.wiki here. CMD (talk) 10:39, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

The lady doth protest too much, methinks. I never said all Zh editors have been canvassed. I was talking about why editors that have little or nothing to do with the English project are suddenly popping up. Can you explain that? John Smith's (talk) 11:01, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Which brings up a different question is there canvassing happening in the other language wikis? SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

That's a good question. Why are these editors with few or no previous edits to the English Wikipedia suddenly popping up here? John Smith's (talk) 08:14, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Outside of an alarmingly large number of IP editors from Hong Kong, which should all be struck, have there been that many others? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:34, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

So far 86.42.28.118, 24.22.232.117 and Cobrachen. I would also observe that TheAznSensation and especially 74.82.68.144 are not super-regular editors here. I don't see anything in either's editing activity that would suggest they have this page on their watchlist. TheAznSensation is not on the China Project's members' list. So I think it's worth asking why these users suddenly appeared. After all, there are no IP editors currently backing the proposal, and as far as I can see all the supporters are fairly regular English Wikipedia editors. John Smith's (talk) 13:06, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Add User:Cravix to that. Some IPs have been here for awhile, but when accounts on other wikis start popping over to place a vote here it's worrying. CMD (talk) 15:00, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

There's also MakeCat and iForce who haven't edited much. There are probably others, I'll add to this as I have time to review their histories. span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.174.144 (talk) 15:35, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

To the IP above. What you say looks reasonable, do you want to post to my talk page to explain your last article edits? Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 16:19, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Except that he's talking rubbish. Both MakeCat and iForce have made a large number of edits recently here. John Smith's (talk) 16:41, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

What is the WP:[insert policy here] standard on that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.174.144 (talk) 17:11, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Celestra has also not edited much before, so we should add that individual to the list. Also, CharlieEchoTango.

Seriously, what are you going on about? None of these users have been editing anywhere as infrequently as the editors I and Chipmunk have flagged. John Smith's (talk) 17:32, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

My issue with the IP is their last 2 article edits, one of which was pretty clearly vandalism an hour before xe edited here. Dougweller (talk) 17:36, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Doug, I don't want to be accused of bad faith by someone, but might I suggest that the last few posts from the IP have been diversionary? I think we need to get back to considering why these editors are popping up out of nowhere to simply "vote" and then disappear again. John Smith's (talk) 18:59, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd suggest that you do. The IP's recent vandalism definitely suggest to me that you ignore the posts from that address. Dougweller (talk) 19:32, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

(@JS:) I don't mean to make a bad faith accusation, but it seems to me that a handful of you are only scrutinising the oppose voters and turning a blind eye to those that support the proposal that you support, and using first SPAs, and now canvassing, as an argument towards why you are right, and the opposers are wrong in this move discussion. When opposers appear, people seem to jump to it immediately, and when it's a supporter, I get the feeling that it's "what's the point in pointing out he might be a ___? He supports my view, after all". I get the feeling that if this proposal doesn't end in a move, some of you will make the argument "this discussion didn't end well! It was completely sabotaged by SPAs/canvassed users/etc!" and will refuse to acknowledge a loss. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 01:54, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

You couldn't be more wrong, I've scrutinsed the edit history of all the supporters. I can't find a single one that is an SPA or had not edited for a while before this move request was made. If you can show that any of them are SPAs, fine. But at the moment the SPAs are against the motion. That's not my fault, it's a simple fact. And you, like other opponents of the move request, keep skirting around the fact that a majority of the opponents of the move are SPAs or otherwise aren't regular English Wikipedia editors. So how do they know all about this move then? They're not going away, more and more keep coming. And they're all against the move. Targeted canvassing is against the rules and completely distorts the result. So, yes, if the closing admin(s) was/were swayed by their "votes" (they shouldn't be, but it's possible) then I would say, "hold on a minute, those comments should be discounted". On the other hand, if there was consensus from established English Wikipedians against the move then I would support that. John Smith's (talk) 08:36, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Before someone wants to tag me again with this so called SAP tag, please think of this: Wikipedia is a very large project that includes people over multiple languages and time zones. You may not know a user name from another language doesn't mean this user account has no contribution to wiki or any project. In addition to this, the fundamental ideas here, I believe, also include respect other users' opinions. Since Wikipedia is using one account for all languages, simply assuming someone you don't know is a single purpose account is just like assume every one with dark skin comes from Africa.

On the other hand, this discussion and outcome could impact other language and create more problems than you can image. There is a photo shows how the name is used for the passport issued from the government of ROC as an evidence. I would suggest leave this alone since this, to lots of people from the other side of pacific and you don't know, is very political driven and could become even more flamming than you have seen. Perhaps some time in future is a better time, but definitely not now.

Other than editing in zh wiki, I was also one of the web team members of Wikimania 2007. So, as a good faith and trust your judgment, I will leave as is for now.-Cobrachen (talk) 03:38, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Two things. First, a single purpose account (SPA) is one that focuses heavily or exclusively on specific topic areas, such as "Taiwan", or "Cross-Straight Relations", or "The New York Yankees". It has nothing to do with the number of edits a user makes but rather the diversity of his edits. Nevertheless, I think we have already decided here that you don't qualify as an SPA so there's no need to be overly defensive. Second, the fact that some editors - particularly those from China and Taiwan - insist on taking politics into account is an express reason in favour of deferring to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines such as WP:COMMONNAME and WP:POVTITLE. Politics has no bearing on the decision-making process on Wikipedia, and arguments founded solely in political reasonings are typically ignored. We deal with facts, statistics and evidence here, not with whether the red team or the blue team deserves to win the match. Your suggestion to 'leave this alone' is acknowledged but respectfully declined. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 04:04, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I respect your opinions and expression on Wiki guidelines. However, allow this being discussed like this is no way to avoid showing this is political-driven. To not use ROC in formal terms by some countries is due to political decision. To suppress voices from ROC is the official role plays by PRC government and media. I believe Wiki's guideline is not to judge or decide things only based on political reason or situation. However, this does seen to happen under this circumstance.

On the other hand, a very clear move on Wiki of this topic may impact other languages and actually push the fire down to other languages and projects. En-Wiki is not an isolated environment and been looked up by other languages as a reference. I think consequence of the outcome is something you should not ignore.

Also please consider this: you can walk away no matter what the outcome of this move and no one can blame or take you responsible, but the foundation can't and they can take harm if legal actions are taken due to this. I am not threatening but just express some possible truth.

Just my 2 cents here and hopefully we all can take an open mind and not stuck down others opinion just because it is convenient to do one way and not thinking of the consequences. Thanks.-Cobrachen (talk) 13:17, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

First, Wikipedia does not bow to threats of legal action. Second, the idea that it could be sued successfully is a joke. It is not illegal in any jurisdiction to refer to the RoC as Taiwan. I'm sorry, but it's fairly clear that your objection is political. That's not something that cuts any ice here. John Smith's (talk) 13:30, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

"First, Wikipedia does not bow to threats of legal action." - Actually it does; the famous FCKGW-*****-*****-***** license key for Windows XP was taken down by legal action, as was the AACS encryption key via an action by Sony, albeit temporarily. See also WP:OFFICE. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 15:07, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

There was no legal threat over Windows XP keys. The full key (now useless) is in the history of relevant articles. It was removed by regular editors because WP isn't a piracy enabler and the full key isn't necessary to discuss the topics in an encyclopedic manner. The AACS key, I believe, was removed on the same grounds before the WMF legal counsel said it was a bad idea to include it. I don't believe Sony made any threats.

Irregardless of the XP/AACS topics, it is ridiculously absurd to think there is some legal issue here. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Absolutely, there's no threat of legal action. It seems like some opponents of the move are becoming ever more desperate with their "arguments". John Smith's (talk) 15:32, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

This is a sensitive matter you are doing of course people are going to take legal actions against this, if it's successful, as I warned months ago. Because of inexperience with this subject of course you are going to accuse us of being politically bias. Your side, however, is leaning towards Taiwanese independence with that first line "Taiwan is a sovereign state". When did Taiwan become a sovereign state? I only recall the Republic of China retreating to Taiwan after losing control of Mainland China due to the Chinese Civil War, but it never truly lost the Chinese Civil War either. However, due to those claims, the ROC has to China, Taiwan belongs to China which both the ROC and PRC agree to. DPP wants Taiwan's sovereignty and the independence of Taiwan from China.Typhoonstorm95 (talk) 17:05, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry but it's so funny to think someone would take legal action against Wikipedia for renaming the article. Where and when can we expect such a case to be filed, assuming the article is renamed? John Smith's (talk) 17:20, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I really would advise dropping the stuff about legal action Typhoonstorm. Seriously, it does look silly. And this isn't about independence, it's simply about the name for a thing (which no one is proposing should be "The totally, very definitely independent Republic of Taiwan", where some of these objections might have a point). We're just trying to follow what the rest of the world does in naming things, as we should. If you have an issue with the "sovereign state" wording - and I'm not entirely happy with it, although it seems more accurate at least applied to Taiwan rather than to some putative still-legitimate government of all China - that's an issue for article text, whatever the article is called. N-HH talk/edits 17:23, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

No, I am agreeing with Cobrachen. This is stating Taiwan is a sovereign state that causes a lot of red flags to go up and could cause a lot of havoc. You keep telling us to move on; when we keep telling you it's sensitve. You keep saying it has nothing to do with Taiwanese independence because it's a mere title change, but much of your side doesn't realize it does point to Taiwanese independence. But I'm done arguing with you.Typhoonstorm95 (talk) 19:25, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Listen, if we can refer to the Armenian GENOCIDE on this project without the world burning down by Turkish nationalists, we can certainly refer to a country as Taiwan. John Smith's (talk) 19:42, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I accepted that saying "Taiwan is a sovereign state" is an issue. But I also said, correctly, it's an issue for article text not title, and will be an issue whatever the article is called. Currently, this page opens by saying "The Republic of China (ROC), commonly known as Taiwan (see below), is a unitary sovereign state". So we have that problem regardless of any rename; yet we don't hear anyone complaining about that, so long as they get the main, minority-use title they want. Which just goes to show how irrelevant the point is. You are indeed done arguing, if all you have got to tell the rest of us is how you personally interpret use of the word "Taiwan" and its supposed deeply loaded significance, rather than anything about how the vast majority of reputable, reliable sources use it - ie as simple descriptive terminology. N-HH talk/edits 20:22, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Now that you mention the Armenian Genocide, that reminds me. Does the German Wikipedia have an obligation to report the IP addresses of users that make holocaust denial posts, as required under German and Austrian law? I see warning templates on certain DE Wikipedia talk pages, but I'm not sure whether actual policy exists regarding the matter. If that is the case, then Wikipedia does bend to local and international laws. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 02:11, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

@N-HH If your side knew what they were arguing against then your side could have avoid bringing up sensitive subjects or at least handle better in this move but personal opinions like Shrigley's comment of how he called us "living in the past" and many of HiLo48's statements and your constant tellings of us to move on when the issue is sensitive is effecting my views of your side negatively. But as stated in this news article Legacy debate as Republic of China marks 100 years from BCC News views are conflicted about the ROC and Taiwan however the article does say "Taiwan's government and most people, however, strongly believe the ROC is a legitimate, sovereign country, despite claims to the contrary by China and only about 20 mostly small countries officially recognising it as such.". Just be more respectful in this move as it is a sensitive matter.Typhoonstorm95 (talk) 07:00, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

@李博杰: I doubt it does. Wikipedia does bend to Florida law and United States law, as that is where the servers is based. At any rate, "This move may result in legal repercussions" is not an argument that holds any water.

@Typhoonstorm95: Note how in an article explicitly discussion the ROC and how it has continued for 100 years, the government is still called "Taiwan's government". This massive common usage is what this move is trying to fix. Because the views are divided it's far better to not take them into consideration, as that will make our name choice political. CMD (talk) 07:38, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

I already said I was just express some possible truth, not threatening and hopefully you can read my statements more carefully. Even though legal action itself may not results any difference, the process itself is a pain and every users will suffer from that. I believe this applies to any topics and editing and we should be more aware of consequences from our actions.

Back to the this topic, from my observation of international events and some statements here, the action and proposal here is clearly matching what PRC is trying to do to claim the so call "One China" political policy. So before some of you trying to say others' opinions are purely political, could you share some of your thoughts regarding how to separate this from a so obvious political-driven issue? I believe if some of you can express that pretty well in clear term, there is a good chance to have more people to accept your ideas, instead of more argument.

Let me say this again: what I am trying to say and do here is to help you to form a better understanding among different groups, which come from all over the would. Also, bring us to the same page and understand the possible impact is also important in the communication and reach out process. Communication and understanding is a two way street, not just you talk and I listen. Keep an open mind and we all can benefit from it.-Cobrachen (talk) 16:58, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

The problem as I see it that pretty much every "oppose" - quite apart from any SPA issue - starts talking about "neutrality", "official names", whether a rename is part of some sort of bid for formal Taiwanese independence (although, oddly, others object on the grounds that, by contrast, it's a bid to imply subordination to Beijing) etc etc. We get into these complex analytical debates about what Taiwan vs ROC "means" at some existential level or in some purportedly substantive sense. This is missing the point. It's simply about the name - and the name used by nearly every English-speaking reference source available for this entity, in 2012, is "Taiwan". If people have a problem with that, they need to start a campaign aimed at Britannica, Whitaker's and virtually every other encyclopedia or reference book/site, government or otherwise, most news media - even those in Taiwan and China - and 1001 other serious authoritative sources. Once those all change their practice and start referring primarily to ROC, come back here and point us to that evidence. Until that happens, all this talk page verbiage and debate is so much whistling in the wind and basically totally off-topic. This is actually quite a simple issue. N-HH talk/edits 17:11, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

N-HH makes a good point. I think a lot of people here are in denial about how Taiwan is normally referred to. John Smith's (talk) 17:20, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I think Cobrachen's insightful comments shed more light on the justification behind many (if not most) of the "oppose" votes. That is: in other languages, this move might not be appropriate. But the fact is, in English, when writers, journalists, random people on the street, talk about "Taiwan" and "China", they are not choosing their terminology for politically motivated reasons, or because they support Taiwan independence.. they call the country "Taiwan" because that's the no-drama convention in English.

Maybe this convention doesn't translate to other languages, and hence people's opposition. If that's the case, then maybe those other language Wikipedia's should consider not just blindly following what the English Wikipedia does, and have their own discussions. Mlm42 (talk) 20:00, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

The only good reason I can think of to blindly follow en.wiki is if due to en.wiki's wider audience that the decision looks sensible - especially for a topic thats relatively obscure. But I cannot see any reason at all why zh.wiki would follow en.wiki on a topic like this that's clearly so important to them. Frankly I don't see why any other wiki would blindly follow us on this - China is one of the world's most important countries and therefore any other wiki should have their own view on it.

I certainly feel strongly enough about not blindly following that I'm happy to support a message for the top of this talk page (and the China talk page ideally in both wikis) which explains, in English and Chinese, why we have gone down different paths on this topic. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:47, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Arbitrary break - 24 February

I just thought it might be a good idea to refocus the issue of the SPAs. Brianju is the latest one. Ignoring the struck sockpuppets, I count 7 SPAs compared to 10 other editors that have registered their opposition. If this trend continues there will be more SPAs than regular English Wikipedians who are objecting - and I'm being generous in my definition of "regular", given TheAznSensation actually edits very rarely. John Smith's (talk) 15:39, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I know that discussions ebb and flow a bit, but the first 14 points all being in favour (you could almost close it as a WP:SNOW close in favour at that point) followed by so many opposes more recently is really rather odd and there is fairly clearly some form of deliberate disruption to the discussion. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:57, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I've gone and reported a bunch of possible socks of Instantnood. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:11, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I waited to mention this in case Benlisquare, who has been active over on zhwiki, would address this first. The current move request was advertised on the Chinese Wikipedia's Village Pump equivalent here (revision) by an IP editor. This may explain the influx of Chinese editors with little to no experience in English policies and guidelines. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 21:29, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

In which case they should all be ignored. this makes it clear that there is a deliberate attempt to interfere in our processes going on. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:51, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Shame, but it looks like I was about the canvassing. Even if the IP didn't say "OMG stop the Taiwanese independence-seekers" going on to the Chinese language Wikipedia was obviously going to be the best place to whip up opposition to the move. John Smith's (talk) 22:08, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

May I point out that the notification on the zh.wp village pump had a very neutral wording? WP:Canvassing explicitly states that a notification must be mass, biased, partisan or secret to constitute canvassing, and I hope we aren't so blinded by our own snobbishness that we think any attempt to attract editor participation from other Wikimedia projects is necessarily partisan. Deryck C. 23:56, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Yet strangely enough they all seem to be falling on one side of the argument... John Smith's (talk) 00:06, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

How are other language wikipedias appropriate places to seek opinons on move requests on the English wikipedia? CMD (talk) 00:16, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

It does appear to be neutrally worded, I make no assertions of misdeed there. However, the current voting trend makes for some interesting observations: EnWP editors, including both experts and newbies in the topic area, have voted heavily in favour of the move. ZhWP editors, presumably also including both experts and newbies in the topic area, have heavily voted against the move. If the arguments were being based solely on policy and facts, there's no reason why ZH editors would near-unanimously vote the opposite of EN editors, assuming both have reasonable distribution of experts. This points a very strong finger at political motivations - there's a strong appearance, justified or not, that many of the ZhWP editors we've attracted to this move discussion have political motivations for their votes. This also makes for potential evidence suggesting a 'partisan' effect from the otherwise neutral notification. Since political reasons have never been a valid argument for EnWP (and probably others), the closing admin will need to come to their own conclusion about these votes and whether they have any policy-based arguments alongside their political arguments. Most of them so far don't seem to, but time will tell. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 00:18, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

This from the editor who accused me of "incivility" and using "accusatory language" when I dared to note that the fact many supporters of this move appeared be migrants from other articles (like the now renamed Wikipedia:NC-TW and People's_Republic_of_China) constituted part of the evidence suggesting that this was the next battle in an ongoing activist campaign. Despite my view I have never tried to block supporters from expressing themselves. Perhaps those who primarily contribute to zh.wikipedia have lived in the PRC and/or ROC like I have and are more familiar with Greater China issues.--Brian Dell (talk) 01:49, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

I accused you of being incivil and using accusatory language because you were being incivil and using accusatory language, Brian. If you want to see conspiracy theories that aren't there, that's your prerogative. People who live or have lived in China or Taiwan - yourself included - are no more or less qualified to comment on the verifiable facts of a case than anyone else is. Nationality neither confers nor removes automatic authority on any given subject. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 02:51, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

After I made these remarks you objected to "this incivility" saying I was making "unfounded accusations." Which words, exactly, constituted "incivility"? I think it's time to start backing up your charges with specifics and, better yet, present the evidence to the Admin Noticeboard because it is off-topic here. You elsewhere lectured me about making "inappropriate assumptions about the motivations..." If your own accusations are "founded" where is the proof of the "political motivations" that you accuse our Chinese Wikipedia editors of? If "nationality neither confers nor removes automatic authority" then why have you been trying to suppress the input of Wikipedians based on apparent origin? You've previously supported efforts to block Hong Kong-based editors and now you've broadened your attack to editors of zh.wikipedia in general.--Brian Dell (talk) 06:08, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Given the pace and disorganisation of the supporting discussion for this page, it's little surprise that some comments go under the radar. Here's one from Cobrachen, who says "I would suggest leave this alone since this, to lots of people from the other side of pacific and you don't know, is very political driven and could become even more flamming than you have seen". I don't have time to go over others but Cobrachen's comment is an indication both that his own commentary here is politically driven, and a tacit acknowledgement that "lots of people from the other side of the pacific" are likely to have similarly politically motivated views (though I'm on the same side of the Pacific and much closer to these matters than Cobrachen seems to think). If I've made inappropriate assumptions about the motivations of our Chinese editors, it's been on the admission of a respected contributor to the Chinese Wikipedia who appears to have more experience in the subject than either of us. Your characterisation of having concerns about political reasoning influencing votes, against our policy, as 'attacks' is as absurd as it was last time you flung that accusation around. My interests are in the integrity of the vote, not which way it goes. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 21:08, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Translation: "Currently at the English Wikipedia there is a vote regarding moving en:Republic of China to en:Taiwan. Initial discussion (regarding the issue) suggests that a final vote should be conducted, if anyone is interested in proving their opinion, have a look at en:Talk:Republic of China." - Does this violate WP:CANVASS? I don't see how a particular side is being taken. Per the page on WP:CANVASS, there is no immediate rule violation, unless I have missed something, in which case someone please elaborate. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 02:20, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Per WP:CANVASS:

• Scale:
  • Appropriate: Limited posting? Yes (only one page)
  • Inappropriate: Mass posting? No
• Message:
  • Appropriate: Neutral? Yes (non-partisan language used)
  • Inappropriate: Biased? No
• Audience:
  • Appropriate: Nonpartisan? Yes (the entire ZH Wiki community, on a community discussion page. THe ZH Wiki is comprised of mainlanders, HKers, Taiwanese, Singaporean, and Overseas Chinese)
  • Inappropriate: Partisan? No (inb4 "everyone on ZH Wiki is biased against us because they are Chinese, etc etc")
• Transparency:
  • Appropriate: Open? Yes (On a community discussion page where anyone of any political alignment can view)
  • Inappropriate: Secret? Unsure (I'm not the kind of person with omnipotent vision that can read private messages on Facebook)

Well? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 02:28, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

A link would have sufficed, Ben. I explained my reasoning why it could be seen as risky under the 'audience' criteria in my post above. The fact that most ZhWP editors who jumped over to this article have expressed neither policy-based reasons for their objection (in some cases no reasons at all), or have bypassed policy reasoning to push political reasoning is concerning, and closing administrators will need to assess this factor in their decision. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 02:51, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

WP:CANVASS is written for recruiting current active English Wikipedia editors. What has happened here is better described as a case of meat puppetry. Mlm42 (talk) 03:34, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

ZH is a biased audience. Never mind the political slant and lack of realistic population representation - culturally it is biased as the language itself. The community at ZH uses endonyms specific to the Sinosphere because ZH doesn't have the global reach that EN (or even DE) does. Even more importantly, Chinese uses words that, when translated directly, do not have the same usage as their English translations. To a great extent, meaningful to this debate, the Chinese characters for "Republic of China" and "Taiwan" do not have the same meaning and usage as they do in English. These terms in Chinese are usually more rigid and absolute, which is a contrast to the fluidity of English. That is a cultural speed bump and someone whose primary language is Chinese, even if they speak excellent English, is still going to carry those cultural biases. That isn't to say that ZH editors aren't welcome to post their opinion here, but they should find it because they are active on EN.

The appropriate template for many of these users is {{canvassed}}|username as an alternative, or in addition to, SPA. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

We're supposed to believe that "China" overwhelmingly refers to the PRC yet the "Chinese" community is biased against the PRC? Maybe the "Chinese" label shouldn't be reserved for the PRC after all given this diversity! I've edited zh.wikipedia from the mainland so I know that it's possible for PRC residents to be Wikipedians. I'm interested in knowing how you can be so confident that an entire Wikipedia project is biased if you hail from an English speaking country as opposed to the culture you're weighing in on. You have ties to the PRC? How is someone with ties to the PRC less biased on this issue than someone from the ROC? If this discrimination based on national origin is going to continue then everyone should disclose his or her origins instead of hiding behind anonymous usernames. The fact of the matter is that the ROC does not have anything even close to the level of organization and sophistication of the PRC when it comes to slanting information. I see supporters of this retitling expressing concern about anonymous HK and Taiwan editors while remaining oblivious to the possibility of anonymous 五毛党 editors. If the English Wikipedia is the unbiased community and an unbiased POV calls for a retitling then why didn't this happen years ago? The editing community, and this article, have been around for a long time.--Brian Dell (talk) 06:59, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah. In English, not Mandarin. Also China isn't called "China" in Chinese - its called "the Middle Kingdom". -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 09:52, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

And America is called "Beautiful Kingdom", along with Britain "Heroic Kingdom" and France "Kingdom of Law". Most country names in Chinese are quite flattering, with the exception of the Philippines (菲律賓), which literally translates to "unruly guest". Your point? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 10:13, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

My point is that because the name is completely different they don't necessarily refer to exactly the same thing. If for example Scotland becomes independent from England and Wales the English language use of the terms Britain, Great Britain, England and United Kingdom will change. "Heroic Kingdom" might well change differently and might refer to England alone, or England and Wales, or the island of Great Britain. Its like the Inuit having 25 words for snow whereas English only has one - languages and cultures are different - especially two as different as British/American and Chinese cultures. You can see how different the languages are with Chinglish and putting Chinese text through Google translate or something in reverse.

The concept known as the Middle Kingdom in Mandarin is not necessarily the same as "China" is in English. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 16:44, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

On a slight tangent, the Scotland point may offer an interesting comparison here - Scotland is the name of the place, whether it is part of the UK or independent. Using "Scotland" to refer to it does not imply an opinion one way or other as to independence. Although the background and wider issues differ, that's the way Taiwan is primarily used in the English language. This is pretty uncontroversial, even if it seems odd to some here, especially to those coming from Chinese WP. "Taiwan" is, in fact, pretty neutral as well as common - or at least no less neutral than ROC - and none of those asserting it has some deep POV import have offered any evidence for that beyond their own assertions. Where is the authoritative third-party analysis that makes that specific claim? Can it really be the case, when English-language Xinhua reports of Hu Jintao's comments - specifically on the topic of independence as well - use "Taiwan" pretty happily? N-HH talk/edits 17:04, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

@Mlm42: Do a CTRL+F for "English", and no part of WP:CANVASS mentions the English Wikipedia except for a header template, which is supposed to mean that the guideline only applies to the EN Wiki (you know, as opposed to the Hindi Wikipedia; all projects have varying policies). I don't know where you're getting these ideas from.

@STC: "These terms in Chinese are usually more rigid and absolute, which is a contrast to the fluidity of English. That is a cultural speed bump and someone whose primary language is Chinese, even if they speak excellent English, is still going to carry those cultural biases." - What the blueberry muffins am I reading? I'd like you to go to Tianya.cn or Mop.com and repeat those lines; better yet, go there and say that "The Republic of China still exists". Report back results. If you don't get trolled to death by Wumaos, you're probably getting your account permabanned by the sysops for being a "capitalist-roader imperialist-dog symphathiser" or something. In case you weren't aware, Schmucky, the Chinese Wikipedia prides itself on what it interprets as NPOV, definition being that it is independent from the thought processes of both the PRC and ROC, and tries as much as possible to find a middle way. There are policy pages specifically warning users not to write in a style that sides with either the PRC or ROC, and to avoid Sinocentric phrases such as 我国 and 本港. ZH Wiki is magnitudes of differences away from your average PRC web community from Tianya, or your ROC community from zh:Komica. If you want a sample of what a PRC-sided community is like, have a look at the political boards on Baidu Tieba, and if you want to read Sinocentric vocabulary read the articles on Baidu Baike. Generalising "the mindset of the Chinese" is extremely absurd. Until you can find me a psychology journal that confirms all the things you claim, I'm assuming that you're pulling all this out of thin air. Associating the Chinese Wikipedia with empty claims about biases and Chinese lexicon" is pretty much that, empty. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 07:55, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

With regards to: "the Chinese Wikipedia prides itself on what it interprets as NPOV, definition being that it is independent from the thought processes of both the PRC and ROC, and tries as much as possible to find a middle way." - so they have a totally different understanding of neutrality than we do, where ours is down to how our sources view a given situation. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 09:52, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

If you can read Chinese, take a look at zh:WP:NPOV for yourself. I've only covered one part of ZH's NPOV, not all of it. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 10:10, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

I think Saturday Night Live's skit on 02/18/12 about Jeremy Lin pretty much encapsulates/parodies the gist of this discussion pretty well. A lot of the people who want to change this article to "Taiwan" don't realize the bias their position holds is actually politically and culturally insensitive; they don't see what they want to do is wrong. I think there's very little those who sees all sides of the situation (absent of politics, bias, prejudice) can do to change their minds. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.40.129.169 (talk) 06:01, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Are you seriously arguing that every single English language source which uses those terms, including the Taiwanese and Chinese press as well as the elite of the English language press like the Economist and the New York Times are being "culturally insensitive"?

With regards to audience. Do the people from Mainland China outweigh everyone else by 10:1? If not the audience is bias against them as a group.

I really find it difficult to understand why anyone is defending this action. We don't have move requests mentioned here which refer to other European language wikis, and neither have I ever seen anyone do the reverse. The different language wiki's operate essentially independently and this is basically an "internal matter" which should only affect en.wiki. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 09:37, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Ideally this should be the case, but in reality whatever happens on EN Wiki is never an internal matter. EN Wiki is the largest of the Wikimedia Foundation projects, and whatever happens here has impacts on other projects, since many look up to EN Wiki as a model for their own Wikipedia projects. An analogy would be how "internal matters" affecting the Eurozone economy also has effects around the world; with a model like this, nothing can really be kept separate from one another. This is why I'm opposed to the alienation of cross-wiki users, and the branding of such users as inappropriately canvassed (which essentially nullifies their voice), or even worse, as meatpuppets, which potentially can get these cross-wiki users blocked simply for sticking up for their own ideas, given the policies behind meat/sockpuppets.

And within this move discussion, neither side is disadvantaged; of the ZH Wiki regulars, Makecat is from the PRC (according to his/her ZH Wiki userpage), and Cobrachen is from the ROC. The ZH Wiki has its significant share of PRC users that is good enough; asking for a 1.3 billion : 23 million ratio is a bit overboard, since there's bound to be a lack of interest. (Apparently only 126 million have broadband internet access anyway.) As of 2012, there are no significant technical boundaries for PRC residents to edit Wikipedia; Wikipedia is pretty much open in most parts of Beijing, Shanghai and Guangdong Province (combined almost six times the population of Taiwan + Hong Kong + Singapore), and in other areas, gaining editing access is as simple as emailing a Wikipedia sysop for a IP-block-exempt (for VPNs). If there is any limitation in the number of editors, it's because there is lesser interest in Wikipedia within the PRC, since the spotlight seems to be on Baidu Baike and Hudong. Nevertheless, the population of PRC users on ZH Wiki is not as small as some tend to think. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 09:58, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

You're still dancing around the issue, despite the fact I've explained it several times. No one here is saying that those who speak other languages or contribute to other projects shouldn't be allowed to contribute. It's to do with selective notification. It doesn't matter where Makecat is from or what Wikipedias he edits. He is an active editor at the English Wikipedia. Not one, repeat not one, of the SPAs/meatpuppets/editors-that-very-rarely-edits-English Wikipedia-but-is-active-on-the-Chinese-Wikipedia has supported this move. That is itself a damning fact. You can't just sweep it under the carpet. John Smith's (talk) 11:29, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

And there we go. Makecat admits that he arrived here after seeing a notice posted on the Chinese Wikipedia noticeboard regarding the ROC to Taiwan move discussion. End of story. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 14:54, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for letting us know how he found out about this request. But I don't think that changes much. First, he still could have found out about this move request when the pump was notified, given he is active on here. Second (and more importantly), Makecat is just one user. All the other editors who came from the Chinese project have opposed the move as far as I can see. I can understand if there's not an even split on the issue, but such disproportionate weighting on one side of the argument is a joke. John Smith's (talk) 15:12, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

It's revealing that instead of considering the fact that there is a strong consensus amongst Chinese language editors against retitling this article a cause for pause, you deem the presence of this consensus a "joke." The chauvinism being exhibited here is head shaking. Spend some time with the Chinese community and you might discover that a good many of them know what they are talking about and difficulty in expressing their arguments is more correctly attributed to their facility in English than their powers of analysis.--Brian Dell (talk) 19:06, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Eh, what are you going on about? I didn't pass comments on the quality of their English. Why are you bringing that up?

But anyway I really have to thank you, as you've helped prove my point, although Benlisquare missed it (or chose to ignore it). I don't doubt that a large majority of users of the Chinese Wikipedia would be against renaming this article. Which is almost certainly why the IP editor alerted users on the Chinese Wikipedia. He was trying to find a sympathetic audience to sink this move request. As someone else pointed out, that's Meatpuppetry and against Wikipedia rules. John Smith's (talk) 21:14, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Brian, given your apparent interest in fallacies, you should probably review argumentum ad verecundiam and association fallacy. Your argument is falsely based on the premise that merely living in China for a period of time is enough to awaken poor ignorant English contributors to 'the light'. You've been told repeatedly this is a false premise. You don't know how long any of the contributors here has spent in China except for yourself, neither does spending time in China make anyone an expert on anything, and to the best of your knowledge people with vastly more experience in the Chinese topic area may be opposing you, yet you insist on continuing to set up the faulty argument that anyone who has been there (naturally including yourself, building beneath you the illusion of a base of authority on the subject) clearly knows better. This is a clear non sequitur, and this too has been pointed out to you before. There are countless reasons why an identifiable cultural group may have strongly differing views on a subject than other groups, and 'because they know better' is the least of those reasons. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 21:29, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Where did I call for my view to be upweighted over someone else's by deleting that other person's view, adding an asterisk to it, or otherwise trying to encourage a closing admin to downweight it? What I'm challenging is your calls for the views of a certain group of editors to be downweighted and it's in that context that I've suggested that it's possible that past or current residents of Greater China may in fact be even more informed than those whose right to contribute to this move proposal nobody is challenging. A black person who responds to the claims of white supremacists by pointing out black accomplishments is not necessarily a black supremacist. See False dilemma. I'm objecting to the "They're biased because they are ethnic Chinese," argument, not advancing a positive thesis of my own.--Brian Dell (talk) 01:40, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

If I had advanced a position that ethnic Chinese are biased and their votes should be downweighted you might have a point. I haven't. I have said that the particular ZhWP contributors we've attracted to this vote have given politically-motivated responses devoid of basis in EnWP policy, and that this is a concerning trend that closing admins will need to assess before rendering their final decision. As I stated elsewhere, my main interest is in the integrity of the process and its adherence to our long-established policies, not which side wins this debate. To answer your question on when you called for the views of yourself or other Chinese contributors to be weighted more heavily than any other editor, it is contained in commentary from you such as "if long time contributors to the Chinese Wikipedia think that just applying WP:COMMONNAME would constitute an oversimplication of the complexities and subtleties involved, this ought to be cause for pause for editors based on the other side of the world" [12], "perhaps those who primarily contribute to zh.wikipedia have lived in the PRC and/or ROC like I have and are more familiar with Greater China issues" [13], "[...] instead of considering the fact that there is a strong consensus amongst Chinese language editors against retitling this article a cause for pause [...]" [14], etc. You specifically name editors who are Chinese or who have spent time in China, you specifically named yourself, and via false premise you have attempted to imply that this group of editors is in some way better qualified to comment on matters of China than people you regard as not being part of this group. Tell me, Brian, if Chinese editors are no more knowledgeable about this topic area than other editors, and if you are not pushing for their opinions on the matter to be held in higher regard than those of others, why should their views in particular 'give us pause'? TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 01:58, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

To the extent that we know anything about how informed the editors who primarily contribute to Chinese Wikipedia are on this "ROC" vs "Taiwan" issue relative to editors who primarily contribute to English Wikipedia, yes, it seems to me that absent any further information those editors who reside in the region at issue could very well be more informed. As typical of an argument from ignorance like yours, the absence of information doesn't prove anything directly, it rather raises doubt about whatever is being positively claimed. In other words, what you suggest is indicative of editors to beware (hailing from zh.wikipedia) could just as plausibly be used to argue the opposite, as I've repeatedly suggested. Again, defending a group of editors against those who want to downweight their input is NOT equivalent to calling for their upweighting. You are equating your contention that these editors are "politically-motivated" with my own allegations of political activism (which you declared "incivil" when coming from me) when there is a critical difference between attempting to persuade participants (in my case) and trying to remove participants (in your case). If manipulation of the Talk page input of a whole group of editors based on speculation about the "political motivations" of that group, speculation informed only by the geographical origin of the editors, is acceptable surely you could direct us to where it has happened before.--Brian Dell (talk) 07:06, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Brian, are you familiar with the straw man fallacy? You've been using it extensively, constructing fantasies of arguments made that don't exist because you don't have any basis to attack the arguments that do exist. I don't know how I can make it any clearer for you: most of the ZhWP editors that we have attracted thus far have not provided any policy-based reasons for their votes. These editors will need to have their votes assessed by the closing administrator. I grant that I have an excellent grasp of English and that things may seem obvious to me that aren't as obvious to others, but I'm fairly sure in what I've said there is nothing along the lines of 'all ZhWP editors should be downweighted', or that editors should 'beware' of anything. Perhaps if you spent less time confecting a false sense of 'us vs them' in this discussion you might notice that people on the 'them' side of your divide aren't necessarily as hostile and illogical as you seem to think (though you're doing a good job of making people hostile to you, specifically, with this poor form).

Let's be clear here: you've been trying to pump up editors who live or have lived in China, directly suggesting that their opinions should 'give pause' to all the other editors and effectively stating that you feel they should have more weight than those of others. You were called on it, rightly so, because it's a plainly false premise - experts on China and Taiwan hail from all countries around the world and some have never set foot in China, or haven't done so in decades. You now claim that you're simply 'bringing them back up to equal from being looked down on', which is at face value a falsehood attempting to cover up for the fact that you clearly indicated previously that they should be given more weight than the rest of us solely on the basis of their country of origin. The simple fact remains, if our Chinese contributors' views are founded in EnWP policy, they will be treated equally to any other contributor whose views are also founded in EnWP policy. You may be confusing me with other editors here, presumably through your 'us vs them' mentality, in thinking I have called for the ZhWP editors to be disregarded solely on that basis. I have not, I have told you already that I have not, and yet you persist in presenting this straw man. Go and read again what I've told you twice about where my interests lie here, Brian, and do please at least try to understand them.

Your commentary here has been unnecessarily combative, deliberately confrontational and you've been particularly unpleasant to interact with. And it's not 'any opposer', it's mainly just you. I spoke with Deryck Chan about his vote, presented him with evidence I felt he hadn't seen and while I disagree with his interpretation of that evidence, the discussion was undertaken politely and respectfully. He didn't accuse anyone of being an 'activist', nor bring out a largely-misapplied shortlist of fallacies. He was pleasant to speak with and despite the fact we disagree, I would have no problem discussing matters with him again in future. Even Cobrachen had a respectful discussion with me on this talk page, and again I disagree but respect him and his position. These people have no difficulty communicating with others in reasonable fashion, Brian. I can't say the same for you, and so I won't be engaging in any more of this pointless back-and-forth with you. It serves no benefit whatsoever to either the supporting or opposing arguments, it has nothing to do with the move request itself and is only tangentially related to policies. Both of our efforts would be better spent anywhere other than this conversation we're having right now. I have no intention of wasting any more time on it, and I'd encourage you to do the same. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 13:27, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

I concur with TechnoSymbiosis here. Brian's posts have not been helpful for either side of this debate. In the interest of not lowering the quality of the discussion any further, I agree this thread should end. Mlm42 (talk) 22:47, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

There would not be an issue here if it were conceded that while not providing "any policy-based reasons for their votes" may be relevant, whether an editor primarily contributes to zh.wikipedia or hails from Hong Kong is irrelevant and that (accordingly) no special instructions to closing admins are in order on those points. Individual problem editors can and should be dealt with on a specific case-by-case basis.--Brian Dell (talk) 06:33, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Brian, the issue with zh.wiki is that people !voting who hail from there and who haven't edited here much or at all are applying the zh.wiki policies to en.wiki which isn't acceptable. With regards to Hong Kong, actually we've been really patient about it and have spent a lot of time explaining the situation, but there has been continued disruption and multi-voting from there and there isn't much we can do beyond removing those comments.

I would much rather that zh.wiki hadn't been inappropriately canvassed and that Hong Kong editors weren't so disruptive, but unfortunately that isn't the case. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:22, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

The reason the "down weighting" is being called for is because the editors from zh.wiki were inappropriately canvassed to deliberately attempt to change the outcome of the move request. That is transparently obvious. That its inappropriate is clear from the comments about the differences of the NPOV policies, and the fact that the zh.wiki people have !voted in exactly the opposite fashion to most of the en.wiki people. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:28, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Any why not alert every other language wikipedia? Yes, it is about a China-related issue, but given that the point to be determined relates to a) simply the name in the English language and b) the specific rules of en.wiki, German-language wikipedia editors, for example, are surely just as suitable a group to have their say? If anything they'd come here with less baggage and with a better grasp of English language issues and use. Apologies if this sounds facetious or even chauvinistic (it's not meant to of course), but it's a serious point. And, given that most of the "opposes" that seem to have come from the Chinese project also offer no reason for that "vote", or offer unsupported claims about "neutrality" or "Taiwan's an island, not a state"-type comments, it seems many of them indeed are not capable of addressing the issues; even if they might be able to lecture us all on the finer points of Taiwanese politics or cross-strait history. Also, the idea that you can't SPA-tag until you've checked that IP/account's contribution to every other wiki project sets quite a high bar, surely. N-HH talk/edits 16:03, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

If you feel that other projects should be notified, then feel free to do so (though I don't really think that's a good idea). As for checking contribs, you can check a user's global SUL contributions using this tool (example link lists my global contribs). -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 18:17, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

@Benlisquare, I'm not sure you are completely understanding that here at English Wikipedia, it is completely unacceptable to recruit users who have never (or hardly ever) edited here to vote on something. Please read WP:MEAT (an official policy); this seems like a clear-cut case of meat puppetry, and I'm surprised you are still defending it. Mlm42 (talk) 16:16, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

The other difference is our neutrality polices - following the explanation here it seems that if I was active on the Chinese Wikipedia I would be arguing the opposite position from the one I have stated here. These differences in culture are fine, but those differences may well lead to different outcomes.

Ben, if you feel that en.wiki has undue influence lets stick a note at the top of the talk page here (and on chinese Wikipedia) in English and Mandarin explaining the difference in approach. That should make anyone else who wants to blindly copy us at least think about it and whether their view on neutrality fits more with the English language or Chinese language decisions. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 16:31, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

@Mlm42: So if it's unacceptable for these people to be !voting here, what happens to them then? Are they going to be indef-blocked, as per policy, simply for being here? Good-faith editors with 9,000+ edits on ZH Wiki included? What's the due process you have in mind? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 18:29, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

My guess is that they will only be blocked if they are deemed disruptive; a single vote isn't really disruptive. As long as the closing admin is aware of what has happened (i.e. has read this thread) then no further action seems necessary. Mlm42 (talk) 19:09, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

So far the discussion has been about editors "from the Chinese Wikipedia" voting one-sided against the move. True, the statistics say so. However, I think the "evidence" we've stumbled upon is a case of omitted variable bias. The omitted variable is fluency with the Chinese language and culture. For example, Benlisquare and I, both fluent speakers of Chinese and English, and both more active on en.wp than zh.wp, sided with "oppose". The fact that people who don't speak Chinese won't come from zh.wp made it very convenient to draw up statistics which say being on zh.wp makes one biased in this debate. It's not: people who are fluent in Chinese are more likely to be aware of the subtle differences between "Taiwan" and "Republic of China" when they're used, both in Chinese and in English. Reading the words without its historical context in place, it is easy to come to the conclusion that "ROC and Taiwan are used interchangeably"; but one who understands the historical connotations of the two terms will realise the subtleties involved and therefore are more likely to argue that the two should be differentiated. Just my two cents on statistics and history. Deryck C. 13:30, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

But what does fluency in, or even knowledge of, Chinese have to do with the question at hand? Where is your third-party evidence as to the claims you make about the use of Taiwan vs ROC in English, beyond simple assertion? And, yes, you can make a case about a technical or conceptual difference, but when people - including every serious, reputable reference source - refer to the country in 2012, they say Taiwan. Why is this article - which purports to be about that country - not called Taiwan, as every other English-language source calls it? This is the problem here - people are simply missing the point in favour of esoteric analysis and debate. N-HH talk/edits 13:46, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Fluency in Chinese means that one is in a better position to analyse relevant original sources. A relevant discussion between User:TechnoSymbiosis and myself can be found on our respective talk pages. (1 2) Essentially, the ROC is more than just Taiwan, and each quotation falls into place when one has that background in mind. Deryck C. 14:05, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Just injecting here that while I stopped discussing the matter with you, it wasn't that I was convinced of your position. I maintain that your interpretation of the English usage of 'Taiwan' and 'Republic of China' is incorrectly affected by the usage of their respective Chinese terms in the Chinese language. As was pointed out previously, the Chinese term for Britain is 英國, which translates as 'flower country'. This plainly differs from the English term 'United Kingdom', but it would be foolish to try to 'correct' the Chinese usage of the term based on the English usage. The two are disconnected and unrelated. Similarly, you don't use Chinese usage of 中华民国 and 台湾 to 'correct' English usage of 'Republic of China' and 'Taiwan'. Chinese usage is irrelevant to the matter at hand here and English usage needs to be better respected. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 22:12, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

What "original sources" could possibly be relevant to this discussion if they're in Chinese? This is not a historical or academic discussion. We are focusing on the modern state of Taiwan, not the KMT's pre-1949 existence in China. We keep coming back to the same point, which is that in English the country is referred to as Taiwan. It would not be confusing in the slightest to ensure that the article is titled accordingly. It might be distressing to some Chinese nationalists or die-hard KMT supporters, but it was also distressing for Turkish nationalists to see the Armenian Genocide so titled. Wikipedia didn't change the article title to suit them. We focus on what is best understood by English-speaking users. If Chinese speakers don't like it, they can use the Chinese Wikipedia. John Smith's (talk) 14:26, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Nevermind, since what you basically said was "Wikipedia should name articles according to common usage by English speakers, regardless of whether they know what they're talking about." I don't see any point for me to continue casting pearls before swine. WP:NPA disclaimer: "swine" refers to our apparent policy-interpreting process as a whole, not specific editors. Deryck C. 14:35, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

The more significant personal attack there was your paraphrase about people not knowing "what they're talking about", which could be seen as a dig at other editors. Which leads to three observations - 1) I for one know plenty about the background issues here. It's pretty clear most supporting the move do as well, so it's both a cheap and an inaccurate shot. 2) It's not even an accurate description of WP policy, which asks us to look at authoritative and reliable sources, not simply rely on possibly inaccurate casual use. The overwhelming majority of those use "Taiwan", as demonstrated. 3) In any event, it would be entirely correct to say that it doesn't matter if people don't know or understand the background in detail. The thing anyone participating here does need to know about - and indeed focus on - is, as noted, what the name of this thing is in English-language sources. Chinese-language sources are utterly irrelevant to the specific question being posed here, and if you don't understand that, or WP policy on sourcing and evidence, then it's entirely clear who here doesn't "know what they're talking about". N-HH talk/edits 15:12, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't really see why fluency in Mandarin is a requirement, or even relevant, to understand how China, or in this case Taiwan, is referred to in the English language.

If we were discussing how China is referred to in Chinese, or even how the UK is referred to in Chinese I fail to see how knowledge of the English language would be remotely relevant. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 15:44, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

@Deryck, yes, that's what I tried to point out: many of the oppose votes seem to be based on the following claim: In other languages this move is inappropriate. This claim may or may not be true, I don't know; different languages have different conventions regarding names. But the point is that it doesn't matter: we should only really be considering English-language sources. Mlm42 (talk) 21:26, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Decision-making process

Just wondering, how is the end result decided? First past the post, absolute majority, or what? The previous PRC to China move was not an absolute majority win, and whilst the admins said that they took all of the arguments into consideration, they weren't really clear regarding how that process actually worked. What I mean is, number results are quantitative data and arguments are qualitative data; analysis of qualitative data is based on interpretation, so given that they did not explain how they managed with the "data", I have no idea how they reasoned that move. I hope we don't get a similarly vague "we looked at everyone's arguments, and decided this. no further explanation" for this move proposal like the previous one. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 02:13, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I think WP:CONSENSUS explains the process pretty well. Mlm42 (talk) 02:40, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Consensus yes, and also the strength of the arguments based on the particular policies concerned. I would say the closing triumvirate were perfectly clear: they can still be read here and are well worth reviewing as most of the closing reasons are relevant to this discussion while the ROC is mentioned a number of times.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 02:49, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Geez people respond fast. I was about to say pretty much the same thing, that Wikipedia is not a poll, but moreover that is it based on what people say and what the general feel (consensus) from everyone is. Also, I was just discussing a little while ago how long this RM should last, because I understand the arguments about 7 days not being long enough and I agree and would say that this RM will be open past tomorrow (7 days), which is something I was hoping to bring to a discussion here, how long it should last, I personally would go for 21-28 days, because 7 days is not enough for this time of major topic, although I also wouldn't say its indefinite. JPECH95 03:04, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Issue with the examples within the proposal

Within the usage examples listed below the proposal, I just realised something quite problematic that should be changed. Currently a WP:GOOGLETEST for "Penghu, Taiwan" is being used as an argument that Taiwan is synonomous with the ROC. However, Penghu is itself a part of Taiwan Province, so not even I, an opposer to this move, would find anything wrong with writing "Penghu, Taiwan". After all, Penghu is a part of Taiwan. However, Kinmen and Matsu are not a part of Taiwan, the province that is. Kinmen and Matsu are both part of Fukien Province/Fujian Province of the Republic of China. Currently the "Penghu, Taiwan" clause proves nothing, and is potentially misleading. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 10:52, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

We're renaming the article. You can amend the text and other articles afterwards. John Smith's (talk) 11:23, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

You didn't read what I wrote. Try again. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 11:50, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Just to be clear, that example is evidence that "Taiwan" often refers to more than just the island. Many people argue that "Taiwan" refers to only the island, and state that as a reason to oppose this move. Mlm42 (talk) 16:37, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

On the other hand, the analogous search using "Kinmen" instead of "Penghu" returns roughly the same results. Mlm42 (talk) 16:39, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Location of Kinmen

Here are the precise numbers (Google books only):

• "Kinmen, Taiwan": 179 results.
• "Kinmen, China": 30 results.
• "Kinmen, Republic of China": 17 results.
• "Kinmen, ROC": 6 results.
• "Kinmen, Fujian": 4 results.

Note the location of Kinmen, closer to the mainland than to the island of Taiwan. mgeo talk 21:28, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Something I would like someone to clarify about the proposal,

Does the move imply that even after few weeks RoC attack PRC and get back few province or even all the claimed land, Taiwan would still be the common name of RoC? Or, does supporter to the proposal agree this point of view? C933103 (talk) 00:36, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

這裡的支持者認為在英語中，"Taiwan"與"Republic of China"是同樣的東西，然後"Taiwan"是最常用的。他們不管在中文裡這兩個有什麼意思，也不管政治內容。反對者認為“台灣”不可能是“中華民國”，因為台灣島，台灣省和中華民國有不同的地理成分。 -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 00:44, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

^ WTF? ^ HiLo48 (talk) 07:30, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Huh? Is there something wrong with my French? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 10:57, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

That I got a laugh out of, nice. But uh, obviously, he was referring to the Chinese and this isn't the Chinese Wikipedia, rather the English Wikipedia, so, you could at least give a translation. JPECH95 02:42, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Benlisquare was explaining to C933103 that proponents consider 'Taiwan' and 'Republic of China' to refer to the same thing, but opponents insist that they're not the same thing. C933103's native language is Chinese so I presume Ben was intending to communicate more clearly than C933103 might be able to understand in English. It's a neutral (but very oversimplified) explanation of the main thrust of the two sides. Ben, if you feel Chinese is unavoidable, you should probably try to provide a translation along with what you write, as a courtesy. Part of our talk page guidelines is WP:SPEAKENGLISH. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 05:30, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

My apologies. Translation: Within this discussion, the supporters believe that within the English language, "Taiwan" and "Republic of China" are synonymous terms referring to the same thing, and that "Taiwan" is more commonly used. They do not find relevance about the usage of such terms in Chinese, nor political aspects. Opposers of this proposal believe that "Taiwan" cannot possibly equate with the "ROC", since Taiwan island, Taiwan Province and the ROC have geographically different constituencies. And yes, I do think that it's a bit over-simplified, but it's kinda the gist of things. I just wanted to clarify the whole thing in that user's native tongue, to make sure they understand most of everything. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 09:12, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, and I understand, but since most others, including myself, wouldn't (and I don't trust google translate when it comes to Chinese), so I figuerd that wouldn't be fair. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jpech95 (talk • contribs) 23:03, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

What happens to Earth if the Sun explodes tomorrow? We adjust to the situation at hand, but in the meantime positing "what if" to 1000 different hypotheticals is not a useful exercise. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Motion to close

And by that I don't mean now, but rather to get the general idea on when, because even though most moves last a week, this one should be open for much more than a week (also needless to say that the week was over yesturday). But I'd like to get a set date for when it will be closed and how the result will be met (most likely not democratically), because since the Taiwan (disamb) RM has closed with a no consensus it leaves me to wonder what will happen to this move (that I personally am very proud of). So if I was to say the RM would close on say, the 29th, would that be adequate time? Or rather, would the 31st (of March) be preferable? And again, also, how would we decide what the consensus is, should there be any. Thanks. JPECH95 04:30, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd say 16 March would be a good date. That is exactly four weeks after it was opened and falls on the same day as its opening. Seems like a fair length of time without being excessive - if people haven't commented in four weeks, they probably aren't going to. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 04:51, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

I think 21 days would be enough myself. John Smith's (talk) 08:12, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Well you judge consensus as per WP:CONSENSUS while excluding all the people who were canvassed inappropriately on zh.wiki and all the people who are probable socks of Instantnood. So basically only taking the view of established en.wiki users.

Its probably worth getting a triumvirate to close it as well. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:16, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

If I may, though, how do we decide who's credible and who's not? Isn't that judging in one respect, like obviously the sock puppets and those who were called from the Chinese Wikipedia to oppose, that's a different story, they shouldn't be counted, but otherwise everyone deserves their fair vote (of course, it's not by numbers, its by strength).

Agree with the triumvirate idea. It seems that the votes in terms of numbers are going to be not overwhelming either way, so the closer(s) are going to need to figure some sort of strength of argument basis (and sort though all this sockpuppetry/meatpuppetry/SPA stuff). Regardless of which way it goes, it would be useful if the debate could be closed with sufficient authority that this talk page could, at least for 12 months, be about improving the article and not just what its title could be. Such things would be easier to achieve with a cluster of respected editors, rather than just one. LukeSurl ^{t c} 20:33, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Currently I count it as 27 to 12 or so in favour of the move, which is pretty strong - especially given 40 people have legitimately commented and you are therefore going to have tighter boundaries in percentage terms.

Of course it is much better to judge it according to WP:CONSENSUS which means you take the strength of the arguments into account - and its pretty clear how our (rather than Chinese wiki's) neutrality and article titles policies fall with regards to this issue. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:18, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

So would March 16 be a good day to call it closed and declare a consensus, or is that too much time? That should be more than enough time. JPECH95 02:45, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Jpech95, I don't think this is a decision that is up to us.. we need an uninvolved admin (or better yet, three uninvolved admins) to declare consensus. And we can't ensure they do that on a certain date.. we have to find volunteer admins first, after all. Mlm42 (talk) 03:56, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

I guess we could, if we want to play it out as the Chinese move was, and TechnoSymbiosis might be more accurate, because I suppose we can't set a date, but I definitly would like to be assured I won't be visiting this talk page in July and this will still be here. That's basically my concern. JPECH95 22:25, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

I guess the intention of this question is how long we leave the discussion until we actively seek out admins to close it, rather than on which specific date it will be closed. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 05:12, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't think we want to drag this out too long really, I think pretty much all the people who have a been watching this debate have probably given their opinions already. I wouldn't want to be one of the closers though - there's going to be a mountain of pretty tedious text for them to wade through (it's not just the voting section, it's a few months or so of this talk page's archives). LukeSurl ^{t c} 11:13, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Also, I think it would be good to have at least one member of the triumvirate being able to understand Chinese, as some of this dispute (see the SPA discussion on this page) spills over into the .zh Wiki. LukeSurl ^{t c} 12:09, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

No. This is English Wikipedia. When the primary (maybe even sole) argument for the move is the common name, in English, anything posted in Chinese is, by definition, not a response to that point, and therefore irrelevant to this Requested move. HiLo48 (talk) 19:45, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Guys, why don't you find the three closing admins now so they're in place when this discussion starts to draw to a close? I suggest you ask for volunteers. John Smith's (talk) 07:49, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd prefer it if the admins in question were forced to participate beyond their own free will, per volunteer bias. Just kidding. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 07:59, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm so glad you're taking this issue seriously, Benlisquare. I guess that goes to show that you're less than optimistic you'll get the result you want when the move request is closed. John Smith's (talk) 08:03, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

No fun allowed? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 10:55, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

@Benlisquare, I, for one, appreciate your occasional humour in this otherwise serious/heated/emotional discussion. :-) Mlm42 (talk) 18:34, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

As another question (can never have too much, at least it keeps things moving along, right?) are we looking for 1-3 admins to decide upon this move? Because it has been nearly two weeks and like I said earlier, with some agreement, four weeks is more than enough time, and we're already halfway there. JPECH95 17:58, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Three admins. I suggest you make enquiries now to find them. It might take a week or more to get them in place. John Smith's (talk) 18:40, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Three, okay. And how am I to get ahold of them (sorry for being in unfamiliar territory)? JPECH95 19:08, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

the administrators noticeboard. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:09, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

 Done at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure JPECH95 17:54, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Key themes in opposition to change

Inevitably the discussion above has sprawled quite a bit, and in the interests of clarity and focus – especially for any admins who have to review it all – I thought I’d try to pull the key themes together and offer people opposing the move the opportunity to clarify and back up their arguments. I don’t think it’s in dispute that Taiwan is the common name used in most sources for this country/state/whatever. The most frequently cited reasons for opposing any change in accordance with that seems to be based on neutrality concerns and scope/ambiguity. However, these claims are often simply asserted without supporting evidence. Perhaps people could take this opportunity to supply such evidence – meaning links to third party sources explicitly making these points by way of analysis, not rehashed arguments or one-off examples of use/non-use – in the spots below, if it exists.
I'd also make two more general points ahead of that. Even if it is established that use of Taiwan is in some way not neutral, in what way exactly does WP:NPOV conflict with WP:COMMONNAME? There's a false dichotomy here, surely, in that WP:POVTITLE and the Naming section of WP:NPOV are both quite explicit in allowing titles that might appear not to be neutral, or to endorse one side in a dispute, when they are the common title in English sources (and they use as examples things that are far more obviously “non-neutral” prima facie than Taiwan). As for the scope/ambiguity objection, this seems to miss that the proposal here is more than simply a ROC to Taiwan move – the main point being debated is, yes, about tying the straight Taiwan name to the modern state/country, per common usage; but it also includes secondary proposals for an article titled “Taiwan (island)” and possibly a broader article about the “Republic of China” as a concept/system of government. In addition, it misses the point that the current article itself equates ROC and Taiwan in the very first sentence and through claiming the country template – the only difference is that it does so under the title ROC. N-HH talk/edits 17:54, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Neutrality

• What evidence is there that “Taiwan” is not pretty neutral terminology; or at least just as neutral as “Republic of China”? Can people provide links to reputable analysis that suggests it is not neutral and that this is a broad perception, or authoritative style guides that caution against its use for this reason? For example, something like this observation on the use of “Ulster” in the context of Northern Ireland. Or to evidence that, say, Chinese English-language sources avoid using Taiwan because of its implications? N-HH talk/edits 17:54, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
  • I think this is the crux of the neutrality argument: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-10/13/content_382036.htm, http://www.gwytb.gov.cn/en/SpokespersonRemarks/201103/t20110316_1788120.htm Equating the Republic of China with Taiwan implies that Taiwan is a sovereign state separate from China, and is seen as a pro-independence argument. --Jiang (talk) 02:37, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
    • Likewise, China refuses to allow Taiwan to go by the name 'Republic of China' in international organisations and events such as the Olympics, requiring them to adopt the name 'Chinese Taipei' instead. Similarly, the different political parties within Taiwan itself are divided on usage with the KMT preferring 'Republic of China' and the DPP preferring 'Taiwan'. The evidence lends itself to the notion that neither name is particularly neutral and that there will always be some political groups that object to the name we use, regardless of what it is. This pushes the issue out of WP:NPOV and into WP:POVTITLE territory. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 05:17, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
      • However, some may argue that calling the sovereign state "Taiwan" implies that the ROC no longer exists, and that it died in 1949, when it clearly does exist in the modern era, only as a tiny speck of its former glory. Yes, ROC is biased in that implies that there are Two Chinas. Taiwan can be bad on both sides, either as a "subordinate renegade province" of the PRC, or as a de jure independent nation called Taiwan. By calling it Taiwan, it implies that the ROC does not exist and the PRC does (making the PRC the rightful successor of China per succession of states theory), at the expense of the national soveriegnty of the ROC. By calling it ROC, it implies that there are two existent Chinas, the ROC and PRC, at the expense of the PRC's rhetoric. The POV works either way. The Two Chinas model makes it look like instead of there being two independent states, that there is something like Occupied France and Vichy France or something (though that analogy probably isn't as good as I hoped). By using ROC, we're essentially "losing less" when it comes to shaking the balances of POV; "Taiwan" causes more damage than "ROC", from what I can see, unless someone would like to argue otherwise. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 09:23, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

• The de facto scenario is that there are Two Chinas, one being the PRC and the other the ROC; this won't change until the ROC ceases to exist via the de jure independence of Taiwan, de jure peaceful reunification of China, or the Second Chinese Civil War. (That, or the PRC ceases to exist, which is more unlikely.) The de jure scenario is that, per the 1992 Consensus, mainland China and Taiwan are both part of a One China, however the two governments of China (i.e. the PRC and ROC) are in disagreement as to what the definition of China is. This will not change until a replacement for the 1992 Consensus is formed, via a mutual agreement between the two sides or via aggressive political moves by one side (which may happen either if a DPP government is formed on the ROC, or if a less moderate, more militarist cabinet is elected in the National People's Congress in the PRC). At the same time, the de jure scenario recognised by the rest of the world (United Nations, et cetera) is that the PRC is the official successor of the ROC in 1949, and that after the ROC losing its UN seat to the PRC in the 1970s, it is no longer a valid sovereign state. (Though de facto, the Republic of China Armed Forces is still an existing entity the United States can sell Patriot missiles to, amongst other things.) Now, the point of this entire chunk of tl;dr: Both terms, ROC and Taiwan, are definitely POV, that's a given. The question is, which one is less of a pinprick? Do we abandon the rhetoric of the PRC they've been trying to build on for so many years, or do we abandon the sovereignty of the government of the ROC? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 09:41, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I was rather hoping we could avoid lengthy analytical debate based on our own arguments, most of which we all understand and have all heard before to a lesser or greater degree of detail anyway. That's what I was trying to get away from and find third party reliable sources that simply and explicitly make the point that using Taiwan to describe this place is not neutral and deprecated as such by serious analysis, in order to back up such claims. For terms like Ulster (vs N.Ireland) and Judea and Samaria (vs West Bank), these are easy enough to find. The news pieces don't quite do that - they merely document a cross-strait spat about a declaration made by a former Taiwanese president; and, of course, quote a representative of the "Taiwan Affairs Office" doing the complaining, which seems to suggest usage of Taiwan per se is not a problem from the PRC (quite apart from the rest of the world). N-HH talk/edits 11:34, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

ps: Also, if that dispute is enough to bar having an article called Taiwan, that opens "Taiwan, officially the Republic of China" (which I can't see that it is, based solely on a) a Chinese official's complaint, b) about a far more emphatic statement than that); it's also enough to bar the current one, which is titled Republic of China and opens by saying "The Republic of China, commonly known as Taiwan". They're saying the same thing of course, but just with differing focus. N-HH talk/edits 11:45, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with N-HH. So far there's individual opinion as to why Taiwan isn't neutral, but nothing from credible third party sources. Sure, some might say that calling the country "Taiwan" implies there is no ROC anymore. But some might say that calling it "ROC" implies that it is the rightful government of China. We can't have an article title pleasing everyone. John Smith's (talk) 12:32, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I think this is how we have to roll. Claiming that every name is POV based on personal opinion isn't really particularly helpful - for another example see Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Abortion article titles where every possible name that has been suggested is claimed to be a violation of NPOV for one reason or another.

If a given term is truly POV then it should be possible to see that from some sort of reliable source. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:56, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Using the name Taiwan simply because it's the common name is about as neutral as one could be. Only people pushing a political POV (i.e. non-neutral) could possibly argue otherwise. HiLo48 (talk) 19:56, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Scope/ambiguity

• This seems to be a twin-track objection about ROC not being the same thing as Taiwan – that “Taiwan” as often refers to just the island or province rather than the whole country/state; and that “ROC” means something more than just the modern country/state. Can people provide evidence in relation to this, for example from reliable third-party sources that suggest that Taiwan usually has a more limited and geographic usage; or that a slightly blurry pars pro toto usage, of the sort used here for Madagascar for example, and for Taiwan in other non-WP country profiles, is inappropriate for Taiwan? Or would even be outright incorrect, as the entry for Britain here makes clear it would be for England vs Britain/UK? N-HH talk/edits 17:54, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
  • The proposal includes content reworkings, not just moves. Specifically, it proposes that a separate Republic of China continue to exist, without having clarified how/why it is supposed to nontrivially differ from the Taiwan article (especially since the move's rationale is basically that Taiwan = ROC, which makes this part of the proposal seem oddly self-contradictory). --Cybercobra (talk) 22:20, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
    • A separate "Republic of China" article already exists - namely Republic_of_China_(1912–1949). This article is basically only about the current island nation - with a reasonably appropriate amount of background. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:26, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Insisting on 100% precision and theoretical consistency in every aspect of the proposed change is as wrong as insisting on 100% consistency in the use of Taiwan. Language and classification is rarely that simple; plus, these are big picture issues, and the details of any changes, including any secondary proposals and article content, are open to debate of course - among those who broadly support the plan, let alone those who are more sceptical. Anyway, that wasn't really the point of this section, which was asking for evidence and sources that explain/justify opposition to the broad principle at stake - ie that the country article should be at "Taiwan" - on the basis of significant and material supposed ambiguity or confusing scope. Do you have any? N-HH talk/edits 23:57, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Other

• Some have cited WP:RECENTISM and the fact that the official name is ROC. I can’t see that these carry much weight, but happy to have someone explain why. The former is an essay about content and due weight; the latter manifestly falls foul of common name policy. N-HH talk/edits 17:54, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Naming convention link

The banner at the top of this talk page includes Talk:Republic of China/article guidelines, which includes the sentence "# Remember to adhere to the naming conventions listed here: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese)#Republic of China, Taiwan, and variations thereof", but the referenced section does not appear to exist. Was this naming convention repealed? Can someone more knowledgeable fix the link? --Boson (talk) 10:51, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Discussions about the article name basically led to the conclusion that the existing guide was rubbish and no longer represented consensus (if it ever had), hence it was removed recently. Given that it suggested that "Taiwan" was only to be used in respect of specific references to the main island itself and pretty much never for the broader geopolitical entity, it was clearly a nonsense formulation, and one that would become even more absurd if the proposed move/switch above goes ahead. I guess we need a new one. Broadly, that should be the opposite of the old one - Taiwan should be the preferred term for the state as a whole, even often when used in direct contradistinction to (mainland) China; with references to Taiwan island and Republic of China only when more geographic specificity is required or more technical, political issues come up in a formal context respectively. N-HH talk/edits 11:16, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Nonsense. The "existing guide" was attacked because it insisted on WP:NPOV which in turn meant Wikipedia not supporting PRC claims to ROC territory (and vice versa). There was no consensus for its removal. The attackers are now calling for "Taiwan" over here because it is more suggestive of provincial status subordinate to Beijing.--Brian Dell (talk) 09:29, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

How strange. One of the major objections to this move is that it supports "Taiwanese independence", which would be the opposite to suggesting it is subordinate to Beijing. This clearly demonstrates why we should ignore what political implications we think titles will have. CMD (talk) 13:11, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. And @Brian Dell, I know perfectly well why I, at least, objected to those guidelines - as do you, because I explained it above, and on previous occasions. It was simply that they flew in the face of usage elsewhere - it had nothing to do with trying to subvert npov or taking sides in the real-world political dispute. Please don't try to suggest that I'm either wrong or lying, at least about my own motives. Nor, as it happens, do I detect such naked politics behind the actions and statements of others who opposed them. In fact, it's quite clear where the politics is actually coming into this broader debate from. N-HH talk/edits 13:38, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I stand by my contention that you mischaracterized NC-TW when you claimed that, under NC-TW, Taiwan was to be used "pretty much never..." Besides calling for the PRC to go under "C" and the ROC to go under "T" when "alphabetizing countries," the old NC-TW guideline said "Republic of China" should be used in "political contexts" involving descriptions of "the existing governments or regimes" particularly when "imprecise" terms would be problematic. This is a minority of contexts. "Taiwan bought such-and-such" or "So-and-so visited Taiwan" were not precluded by NC-TW. I grant that the possibility that the call for ROC usage was either too broad or was in practice being applied too broadly. But you declared the entirety of NC-TW "rubbish" when the primary focus of NC-TW is to warn POV pushers against advancing claims by either the ROC or the PRC to territory controlled by the other (note its placement in the "Political NPOV" section). If the point was not to attack this primary raison d'être of NC-TW a rewording or rephrasing could have been proposed instead of deletion.--Brian Dell (talk) 21:44, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

You're still making inappropriate assumptions about the motivations and intentions of people involved in the action. I think most participants would agree that the goal was to remove material that did not reflect consensus, and replace it with material that did. From what I can gather, you would have preferred the section remain in the guideline and be re-written inline, whereas other editors preferred the section be removed, a discussion held over how to fix it, then have it reinserted once it did reflect consensus. Your accusation that people wanted to open the door for POV pushers and to attack the section's purpose is completely unfounded given there's a discussion going right now on what would be a suitable replacement here, in which you can plainly see the people you accuse of wanting to effectively kill off the guideline are participating (and in some cases supporting the proposed new text). But you know this because you've participated in that discussion yourself, so why you continue to mis-characterise people's intentions is beyond me. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 22:13, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

(@Brian Dell - EC) And you never said above that I "mischaracterised" the guideline, so I don't see how you can now "stand by" that contention; indeed, this is the first time you've made that accusation. What I was responding to was your equally unevidenced claims about people's motives - that they attacked it because they disliked its insistence on NPOV and that their aim was to encourage usage that implied Taiwan's subordination to Beijing. I objected to that because it is an untruth. As to the new, mischaracterisation point, I don't know if we're looking at different things. This is the one I was referring to. The rival claims and equal status points are simply the first paragraph of the guidelines. But there's then ten times as much text following, about other matters. Your quote, from the introductory points there, does indeed pretty much deprecate using Taiwan in the general way the rest of the world uses it in 2012, ie for the state. The convention also does that explicitly in the next sentence - "the side-by-side usage of the terms "China" and "Taiwan" in a political context (phrases such as "China warns Taiwan") should generally be avoided". Then, in the columns, it is very clear that "ROC" is to be used for the state and that "Taiwan" should only be used to refer to geography and the main island itself. That's the thread that runs through the old guidelines, and, yes, I and others have a problem with it. I see neither mischaracterisation of the guidelines nor base motives on the part of those opposed to them here. And, btw, I agree that any new guidelines should almost certainly have an NPOV guarantee of some sort. N-HH talk/edits 22:26, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

If you are entitled to allege where the "politics is actually coming" from I'm equally entitled, no? I responded to your statement that I not "suggest" that you're "wrong" by explaining in more detail why your "rubbish"ing of NC-TW remained "wrong" in my view. You repeat your contention that under NC-TW it was "very clear" that "'Taiwan' should only be used to refer to geography..." but it was, in fact, far from clear that usage was so restricted. There was indeed a "thread" running through the "old guidelines", but the theme was more oriented towards protecting Republic of China-related articles from POV editing in a background where the PRC does not recognize its existence, than trying to indiscriminately stamp out the use of "Taiwan." This theme is now absent from proposed replacements I've seen.--Brian Dell (talk) 00:54, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Er, but I only said that in response to your original accusation about politics. So, no, you're not "equally entitled". For want of a better phrase, you started it. As for the guideline content itself, you and I must be reading different things. Under the columns for ROC, ROC(T), Taiwan etc, ROC comes first. That column says to use ROC "When referring to the state in article space", among other occasions. It then offers occasions when it calls for ROC(T), again focusing on references to the state. Then, thirdly, it offers the time when you should use Taiwan - in only three cases, without mentioning "state" once. Namely for "a geographic location on the island", "an origin in the context of a geographical location" or "a subect specific to the island of Taiwan". Could that be more clear and more "wrong", when compared to real-world common use? N-HH talk/edits 01:10, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

If you feel you are entitled to the last word on the matter, fine, you can have it. To focus on the issue, I don't agree that the "only" you find in the text actually exists. What was restricted by an "only" was the use of "Taiwan province," not "Taiwan." If someone means to say "use X only if Y" instead of "use X if Y" he or she will use "only" or similarly restrictive language. This isn't to say that stuff like "referring to the state in article space after appropriate disambiguation has been given" couldn't be reworded or eliminated (obviously the meaning of this must be limited since otherwise other specific points like "When referring to the pre-1949 Republic..." would be rendered redundant, already covered by the broad point) but to say the most consequential restriction in NC-TW was "Text should not imply that Taiwan is a part of the People's Republic of China. Text should not imply that mainland China, Hong Kong, and/or Macau are part of the Republic of China." NC-TW appeared under a "Political NPOV" section, note a "Names..." section.--Brian Dell (talk) 02:18, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm just trying to clarify that politics has nothing to do with it for me. I'm not that fussed or insulted at the end of the day, but it's just wrong, and it seems rather pointless for you to keep insisting on it. I note as well that others have taken you to task on this accusation. Thanks for stopping. Given that the NC stands for "Naming Convention" I also don't quite get your insistence that the main focus of the convention was that one sentence on NPOV in susbtantive text, rather than names and terms. The title and the content - including the parts I highlighted - make quite clear what the main bulk of the convention was looking at. Also I don't see the absence of "only" as being quite as significant as you're trying to make it out to be in terms of drafting. The "use A if B, use X if Y"-type construction we have there doesn't need an "only", except for emphasis or to outright exclude the occasional deviation that most rules will sensibly allow for otherwise. It's implicit. As it is that WP should strive to maintain NPOV. Anyway, this is all rather moot, as we've since moved on. N-HH talk/edits 15:44, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

This discussion doesn't belong on this page, but I don't see how the rewritten guidelines should be any different from the rewritten "China" guidelines implemented shortly after the merge of People's Republic of China into China. That is, we will allow Taiwan to be used as a conventional short form (as opposed to the explicit prohibition under the old guidelines) in most contexts, while suggesting the use of Republic of China in contexts where doing so would be more accurate, as it done in scholarly reliable sources.--Jiang (talk) 11:29, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Boson's issue was that the 4th entry of Talk:Republic of China/article guidelines/list points at a section that no longer exists. Perhaps that entry should be removed until replacement guidelines achieve consensus. Kanguole 11:43, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Done. John Smith's (talk) 12:00, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Reminder to all editors from ArbCom

Most of the recent discussion on this page has remained relatively civil, which is great; but since so many people are currently taking part it seems like a good venue to disseminate a recent statement from ArmCom:

All users are reminded to engage in discussion in a way that will neither disrupt nor lower the quality of such discourse. Personal attacks, profanity, inappropriate use of humour, and other uncivil conduct that leads to a breakdown in discussion can prevent the formation of a valid consensus. Blocks or other restrictions may be used to address repeated or particularly severe disruption of this nature, in order to foster a collaborative environment within the community as a whole.

— ArbCom, February 2012

That statement was issued here, and unanimously endorsed. Cheers, Mlm42 (talk) 01:17, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Useless post. None of the individuals who some may think have breached that guideline will think it applies to them. It's always the other guy. The only way to tackle this stuff is to identify specific behaviour that is unacceptable, with really good reasons why, and do something about it. I also know from experience that it's very hard to get agreement on what is disruptive. I think experienced editors continually posting from IP addresses for no rational reason over many months is disruptive. Some don't. Asking all editors to be nice, without tackling real problems, is pointless. That post, while well intentioned, will not actually help this discussion page. HiLo48 (talk) 01:31, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it's very hard to get agreement that posts like these[15][16][17] are disruptive. Shrigley (talk) 01:37, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

There's also this: [18], this: [19] and this: [20]. Lots of personal attacks in there; why are you just bringing up benlingsquare?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.78.140 (talk • contribs)

Do you think Benlisquare would agree? HiLo48 (talk) 01:59, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Especially the last one, although I don't think its right to expcilitly target him, as there are others here, but I see your point, and he's been doing it for a while. JPECH95 02:01, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

My intention was never to target Benlisquare as a person; just the behavior. He should know that I think him to be an excellent editor, but it's easy to get swept up in the climate of impunity around these pages. A good part of the problem has to do with the Instantnood IP sockpuppets that are driving everyone crazy as of late. Shrigley (talk) 02:32, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be so much easier if we could just ignore them? I mean, I know its annoying, but come on. JPECH95 02:49, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Not a bad idea. Not sure how we get everyone to do it. IP editor 147.8.102.172 has just restored a whole lot of deleted posts which basically repeat the same points that we've all read many times before. It's probably best we ignore them, but how do we get everyone to do that? HiLo48 (talk) 11:04, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I gave a quick concise reply to one point, for users who don't know the whole background. I suggest we just restrain from feeding them long conversations. Of course, if they're judged disruptive I wouldn't at all object to my comment being removed with it. CMD (talk) 12:20, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I've collapsed the Hong Kong based filibustering. Its blatantly our banned user, no normal IP editor would make more than a single comment. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:17, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

HiLo - Re what you say here "I think experienced editors continually posting from IP addresses for no rational reason over many months is disruptive.". Experienced IP editors (inc. me) think you are being disruptive by constantly raising this non-point. It is an established Wikipedia principle that IP editors can participate. Notwithstanding that, IP editors (inc. me) have kindly explained our choice not to create accounts. You choose to ignore those reasons. 86.42.178.193 (talk) 18:47, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

More generally, IP editors should be treated the same way as account holders. No better, no worse. Your discussion should take account of this. 86.42.178.193 (talk) 18:50, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I disagree, IP editor. HiLo makes a good point; in particular the policy Wikipedia:Sock puppetry is important, and it seems that IP editors on this page may be violating that policy, by intentionally deceiving others - giving the impression that there are many different IP accounts, when in reality it may only be one person. This would be a serious breach of policy; if experienced editors are intentionally deceiving us with rotating IP addresses, then they should be ashamed - or better yet, blocked. Mlm42 (talk) 18:57, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

If people are doing sock puppetry using IP or using accounts, they will get caught out by Wiki Systems. I am no sock puppet but you tar me with the same brush. That is unacceptable. 86.42.178.193 (talk) 19:05, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

You misunderstand. Please read the opening paragraph of Wikipedia:Sock puppetry. Even if you have never had a registered account, you could still be guilty of sock puppetry. One editor, one account. That's the general rule. Mlm42 (talk) 19:09, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

There is no evidence that User:Instantnood has ever edited with an IP outside of Hong Kong - and the behaviour doesn't tally either. Almost all the disruption on pages on Greater China comes from Hong Kong. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:55, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

My point is that IP editors may be in violation of Wikipedia:Sock puppetry even if they have never registered an account (so I'm talking about accounts other than Instantnood socks). Mlm42 (talk) 22:24, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I think its pretty clear all the 86.* editors are the same person and that no attempt has been made to hide that. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:47, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Anyone complaining about anonymous IPs should drop their own anonymity. Tell us your real world name or give us other information that could go towards accountability.--Brian Dell (talk) 22:36, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Look go and read through Talk:China, WT:Naming conventions (Chinese) and other similar pages - you'll see significant and continued disruption from Hong Kong based IP editors. If you let the abuse go then unfortunately you land up with a situation like Talk:Taiwan (disambiguation) - where really the move request has become a mess.

You'll notice that no-one else is agreeing with you here - in the past others have raised concerns - that they aren't this time is because they recognise that unfortunately the Hong Kong based IP editors are being unambiguously disruptive.

Its not as if there isn't a continued problem and thus a good chance of the IP editors not being related.

In the past I have complained about poor labelling of sock-puppets, but in the cases I have complained about the edits were all reasonable, all or almost all in article space and there was a significant time delay (say 3-6 months) since the previous disruption. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:14, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The issue was never with anonymity, it was with ownership, cohesion of discussion and with gaming the system. An IP can be used by anyone, reassigned at any time at the whim of its controlling ISP; an account can only be used by the person who registered it, short of their password being compromised. This creates ownership. The constant shifting and changing of IPs from ISPs with high dynamic range recycling makes it difficult for contributors to follow a discussion - is that contribution by 86.4.* from the same person as that contribution from 86.17.*? Or worse, is it the same person pretending to be different people, as strongly appears to be the case with a Hong Kong contributor here? Sure, a user could register multiple accounts to game the system in the same way, but accounts are a lot easier to investigate and confirm sockpuppetry than IPs are. Further, when semi-protection kick in, as they did recently due to the disruption caused by an IP editor in this topic area, IP editors are the ones that lose their ability to edit. It's a myth that IP editors are equal in all respects on Wikipedia - it's something we strive for, but it's not something we will ever fully achieve.

The bottom line is that we all try our best to assume good faith, but in the end, IP addresses cause issues of ownership and cohesion and serve as an enabler for breaking the rules in almost-undetectable ways. Combine that with a topic area of moderate controversy and proven extensive exploitation of IP editing by a banned user in the aforementioned topic area over a period of years and it shouldn't be surprising that the good faith of editors is slowly eroded. Anonymity has never been the issue - in fact, I've specifically pointed out to IP editors many times in the past that you are in fact more anonymous when editing from an account than you are from an IP address. An IP address can be used to geolocate you, it can be used to identify your ISP and in some cases can even be used to retrieve personal information. A uniquely chosen account name can be used for none of those things. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 00:34, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

A discussion above was hidden under the hat "More filibustering from Hong Kong based IP's" yet I think if hiding others' comments is appropriate a rationale could be found other than that the speaker is apparently from Hong Kong. See Poisoning the well. I'd rather hat off-topic discussions like this section and leave on-topic discussions regardless of who is involved. If there is a problem with IP editors it should be dealt with on a project-wide basis. If there's truly such a problem it should be easy to get several independent admins to agree by laying out the issue at the Admin Noticeboard such that their agreement to some sort of policy with respect to HK-based IPs could then be referenced. Absent this, hiding and removing comments or reverting based solely on IP's country location continues to strike me as vigilantism that can be abused.--Brian Dell (talk) 01:21, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I've asked for advice from User:HelloAnnyong, the admin who blocked IP 218.250.159.25 for sockpuppetry. IP 147.8.102.172 has a 54% overlap of common edits with 218.250.159.25, expressing the same views [21]. Both IP addresses geolocate to Hong Kong. I think it's safe to say per WP:DUCK at this point that the IP is yet another reincarnation of the same blocked editor, still trying to circumvent his ban and disrupt discussion. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 02:27, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The 147 IP is now blocked for ban evasion. I assume you have no issue with that section being collapsed now? TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 03:35, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

None of this addresses my point that poisoning the well is a logical fallacy. Aside from that, Eraserhead1 told this IP his or her contribution constituted "vandalism" (and not just to a Talk page but to "Wikipedia"). If it's vandalism it's well informed vandalism. Is it unreasonable for me to agree with admin Deryck Chan who said that "I worry some editors simply using "sockpuppet of Instantnood" as an excuse to scare away any editor who tries to resurrect any old article debate or edit dispute concerning anything related to the Greater China region"? I'm astounded by the extent to which several supporters of this move have been coordinating with each other, given that my years of experience on Wikipedia have taught me that trying to get like-minded editors to work together is like herding cats.--Brian Dell (talk) 04:54, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I can't comment on other editors. I wouldn't have called it vandalism myself so you'll probably have to ask Eraserhead1 what his reasons were. I don't see any conscious effort to poison the well on IP editors either, and I'll point out that it's only usually regarded as a logical fallacy when it takes the form of an ad hominem, though in this case, the following from our ad hominem article is relevant, from academic Doug Walton: "ad hominem reasoning is not always fallacious, and that in some instances, questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue". I believe that given the strong proof and ongoing new evidence of an IP editor from Hong Kong attempting to disrupt the natural course of discussion here to serve his own politically-motivated goals, it's not unreasonable to raise awareness of the possibility of this continuing in the form of a new IP editor from Hong Kong who may coincidentally appear. The remainder of my commentary on IP editors is limited to personal comfort, identifying why I have more difficulty interacting with IP editors than I do regular editors and presented, I would hope, in the same way I might ask an editor not to write in allcaps, or to use proper sentences instead of constant run-on ones like this one, not out of any effort to discredit them but simply as a matter of courtesy in easing communication. As for coordinating efforts, I don't think I've ever dealt with any of the regulars here before so if there's a coordinated effort going on, I'm not part of it. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 05:33, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

My reason (maybe its not an acceptable one) is that then you can block the guy through AIV, which is much faster than for sock puppetry, and frankly it was blindingly obvious that it was yet more disruption from Hong Kong based IPs. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:40, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It is less than "blindingly obvious" to me that calling attention to Ireland (versus Republic of Ireland) precedent constitutes "disruption."--Brian Dell (talk) 19:24, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

That's not why I called it vandalism. I'm not going to WP:BEANS and give my exact reasoning. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:56, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I have not read all of the above but insofar as it proposes to "generalise" about a group of editors who share a common characteristic - IP editors in Hong Kong - I regard that as plain "discrimination": Treating people differently on the basis of a particular characterisitic they have no control over (in this case the fact that they are IP editors in Hong Kong). If there is prove that any one, an account holder or an IP editor is breaking the rules, the usual procedures should apply. In the absence of that, discriminating on some pretext is plain wrong. (p.s. for clarity I am not Hong Kong based, although if I was that should not matter). 86.42.178.193 (talk) 18:55, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

No it shouldn't but if there has been massive disruption from a single location I think you'd agree that its much better to prevent IP editors from that location contributing if we can rather than preventing all IP editors in the whole world from contributing.

The alternative would be to semi-protect the page and prevent all IP editors (and new users) from being able to contribute. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:01, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I apologise if someone has given a good reason why a wise, experienced, sensible editor would choose to not register. I must have missed it. I'm open minded to seeing the reason. But please note that "Wikipedia rules allow it" is not a reason. I'll also point out that several good reasons have been given FOR registering. These include - numbers (rather than names) are harder for other editors to keep track of, IP addresses can change, destroying continuity of argument, and using just an IP address makes you an easy target for allegations of sockpuppetry. So, all these negatives and no positives. Why not register? HiLo48 (talk) 23:59, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

A sensible reason why people don't register, and edit as IPs? A good one is culture. Not all cultures put significant light on online identities, and simply prefer being a nobody, or a number. See Japanese Wikipedia#Characteristics - a significant number of contributions made to the Japanese Wikipedia, mostly constructive, were made by anonymous users. Whilst IPs are seen as either vandals or socks on the English Wikipedia, someone from another part of the world may not share that same sentiment. In Hong Kong there are many BBSes that allow anonymous posting. In Japan, Facebook and Twitter are not as popular compared to the west because they require creating accounts and sharing real-life identifiable information; many still prefer to use 2channel, for instance, which is centred along anonymous posting. Sure, an IP is also identifiable, but it means that one does not have to create an account, an act seem by some as an "attention-seeking" thing to do. See also Wikipedia:IPs are human too. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 02:33, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it's fair to say we regard IPs as vandals on Wikipedia. I think it's more fair to say that in topic areas that have been heavily vandalised by IP editors, IP editors are treated with caution and aren't afforded the same good faith as they would get elsewhere on the project. I don't think this is a wholly unreasonable position for editors to have. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 03:37, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that explanation benlisquare. It's certainly one I wasn't aware of, so I've learnt something. I guess my response would be that this is English Wikipedia, and we native English speaking editors have worked very hard to explain what the conventions are here, and why, only to be confronted by continuing antagonism from the IP editors. I travel a bit, and try hard to follow the philosophy of "When in Rome...." If I was trying to convince editors on another Language Wikipedia of my point of view (unlikely because of my lack of linguistic skills), I reckon I'd work hard to follow the local customs. HiLo48 (talk) 04:53, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It's funny to hear you speaking about "conventions" as if you're a respectable member of this community, when in reality you spend 90% of your time trolling WP:ITN and every admin you encounter is deciding between getting you blocked or avoiding you. JimSukwutput 08:48, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Jim, give it a rest. Your own comment could be considered trolling. John Smith's (talk) 11:36, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

HiLo48 made many personal attacks in this issue which were rather insulting nor do I recall him apologizing for his statements. But John Smith your own statement that we are in "denial" was also a personal attack; watch your words carefully in this argument.Typhoonstorm95 (talk) 01:57, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

People on Wikipedia always misuse the word "trolling", it's odd but I guess it can't be helped. Apparently any comment that is unsatisfactory is "trolling"; whenever I see that word being used, I myself am wondering as to whether I'm being trolled, in the genuine sense. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 03:35, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Even though I support the move, I can't help but to agree with the comments above that a few prominent editors from the "pro-move" camp have without a doubt made scathing personal attacks on editors who are opposing the move. It is fine to debate the issue in an respectful and civil way, but I don't think that mudslinging and personal insults to an individual's character and beliefs should be tolerated at all, especially those who claim to be from civilized, mature, democratic societies. Raiolu (talk) 07:03, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Such as? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 09:17, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

And do check the definition of a personal attack. It does not include firm, vigorous, and absolute condemnation of a post, such as "That post was complete and utter garbage". If, however, I said "Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries", THAT would be a personal attack. HiLo48 (talk) 09:40, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Sure...I clearly remember two posts by HiLo48 where just the edit summary was a personal attack: "Stupid...not helping your political cause" (borderline) and "Incompetence, bad manners...". No matter the frequency of personal attacks, most of HiLo48's posts have zero civility, so you two (Eraserhead included) can deny all you want. GotR ^Talk 16:39, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Repetitive off-topic, politically motivated posts from IP editors who make conversations impossible to follow are disruptive and, especially because of their oft repeated nature, are very uncivil themselves and so lose their right to civil responses. HiLo48 (talk) 07:27, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

That said HiLo you should tone down your edit summaries. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:29, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Just had a quick look back. Several of my alleged uncivil Edit summaries have been in response to posts with no Edit summaries at all. That's yet another unsatisfactory behaviour from those who are really creating the problems here. It's frustrating to be told so often to keep being nice to people who really are troublemakers. I don't believe it's an effective response. The evidence is that they're still doing it. HiLo48 (talk) 08:02, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

"...incompetence, illiteracy...": [22]. "What drugs are you on": [23]. Another one: "It's an attempt to get very misled and mistaken (or stupid?) editors to see reality.": [24]. Just in case you don't see it: you've called people 1) illiterate, 2) drug addled and 3) stupid. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.78.143 (talk • contribs)

HiLo, many established editors rarely use substantive edit summaries on talk pages as well, and unless an edit to a talk page involves moving/modifying another's text, I don't see how they are required. That is simply another lame excuse. GotR ^Talk 15:26, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. HiLo what you've said isn't good enough. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:51, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Ip addresses and socking

I'm a new editor (but i've been watching this debate and I have read wikipedia policy), I am not the anon ips who edited earlier. I want to point out that Mlm42's accusations against the ip (not the sock one) are invalid. The ip address never said editing multiple accounts and pretending them to be separate was okay

Firstly, many ip addresses do not intentionally rotate their ip's, because they are not static. They are dynamic. Dynamic IP, Static IP Everytime they shut their router off (if they turn of all electronics in their house when they go to bed), the ip address will change when they turn it back on, and its not their fault.

Secondly, this is what the ip actually said ["If people are doing sock puppetry using IP or using accounts, they will get caught out by Wiki Systems. I am no sock puppet but you tar me with the same brush. That is unacceptable. 86.42.178.193 (talk) 19:05, 21 February 2012 (UTC)"]

He is probably making a reference to the Checkuser tool, pointing out that socks will be easily found out whether its an ip or an account through the Checkuser after they are brought to an investigation. Little effort is required. He never said socking and pretending to be different people was okay, which was what Mlm42 claimed he said.

I read the wiki policy on socking, WP:SOCKPUPPET. Owning multiple accounts is not prohibited, as long as they user openly says they are operating a sock and their other accounts is "XXX". The usage of multiple accounts and pretending them to be different persons to abuse wikipedia rules in debates and votes like these is prohibited.

The ip editor from hong kong, from what I see, has never tried to hide the fact that he was one person. he openly said why were my edits deleted, and he probably didn't intentionally change his ip address, most likely he turned his router off at night.

And I personally don't know why people think its easier to sock in an ip address. From what I see, its harder, (ip addresses can be traced immediately without Checkuser) and not only that, your anoniminity is more exposed as an ip than as an account, since people can trace your ip address and find out everything about you, your internet service, your location.Niyaendi (talk) 04:22, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

What I still don't get is, if you know, and find frustrating, the fact that you get a new IP address every time you turn on your computer, and it makes you a suspected sock, and makes conversation more difficult, why you then don't register? It would simplify things sooooo much for everybody. HiLo48 (talk) 04:43, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Since this is directed at me, I will respond. Firstly, there are several different IP addresses on this page, including different one's from Hong Kong, and it's not clear which ones you are referring to. Several of the IP addresses from Hong Kong have been recently blocked for sockpuppetry. If you are referring to the editor who edits from the several 86.* IP addresses, then yes, they appear to be the same person, and if they don't try to hide that, it shouldn't be a problem. I don't think I accused that editor specifically for sockpuppetry; my statements were about IP editors on this page in general. Hope that clears things up. Mlm42 (talk) 04:46, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

You say "it's not clear which ones (IP addresses) you are referring to". Well, the problem is, I have no idea either. You see, it's not normal human nature to remember strings of numbers that long. Seven digits is regarded as the limit for most people (See Working memory#Capacity), and IP addresses can be up to twelve digits long. My eyes glaze over when I see an IP address. It takes too much effort to try to differentiate them. But humans have been giving each other names for aeons. It's what works best. Totalitarian regimes throughout history have taken away the names and given numbers to their prisoner/slave classes, as a way of diminishing their humanity. Why anyone would choose to inflict such a stigma on themselves is beyond me. HiLo48 (talk) 04:55, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Assuming you're from 'Straya like me, don't 'Strayan mobile phone numbers have 10 digits? (You know, 04XX XXX XXX?) And oh boy, wait till IPv6 becomes standard; if IPv4 is hard for you, I'm sure IPv6 (example address 2001:0db8:85a3:0000:0000:8a2e:0370:7334) will rustle your jimmies even more. The good thing with IPv6 though is that we won't have mysterious deniable socks anymore; ISPs revolve IPv4 allocations because of limitations (address exhaustion); IPv6 openly shares the MAC address as well. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 05:12, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't remember any mobile phone numbers. My phone does that for me. And some time ago I worked as a network engineer. I'm kinda glad I moved on before IPv6. HiLo48 (talk) 05:50, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Just noting here, Niyaendi, that the Hong Kong IP editor you mention has been blocked repeatedly for ban evasion, not for sock puppetry. It's common practice to refer to a banned editor who returns on an IP address to circumvent their ban as a sockpuppet, usually because the IP is deliberately hiding the fact they belong to a banned editor for obvious reasons. In the case of the Hong Kong editor, it hasn't been suggested that, for example, 147.X is a sock of 147.Y, but rather that both 147.X and 147.Y are socks of User:Instantnood. And as noted, these addresses have been blocked for ban evasion in most cases, as can be seen in their block logs. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 22:06, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Posts from those struggling with English

The latest oppose post above reads "Republic of China is country name and it not same as Taiwan. Taiwan just a island and NOT a country." This is clearly from someone for whom English is not a first language, nor even a strong one. This is not the only post of this nature.

The rational for the proposed move is the fact that the country is described as Taiwan all around the world by English speakers. I submit that someone who cannot use English properly has no standing when it comes to this RfC.

I suspect that this idea may cause some strong reactions, but this IS English language Wikipedia, not broken English Wikipedia. HiLo48 (talk) 06:32, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

I've moved his comment down to the SPA section, the user hasn't made any edits outside his userspace since 2007 - additionally they are a native speaker of Cantonese so I imagine they've been reading zh-wiki or that notice is on zh-yue wiki as well. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:40, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Proficient or not, this is still a free Encyclopedia. People should be allowed to participate accordingly. Please stop trying to silence the voices that disagree with you.

@HiLo48 I'm American with Eurasian ancestry and I understood what she/he meant and I agree with it. And your last part you should have kept that to yourself.Typhoonstorm95 (talk) 21:03, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

As a free encyclopedia (in all the definitions of "free"), all voices must matter or none do. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.78.140 (talk) 22:41, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

HiLo48 isn't suggesting they be silenced, only that their opinion doesn't hold weight on an RfC on a name for an article in an English encyclopaedia. CMD (talk) 21:38, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Precisely. I just knew that some political correctness inclined folk would misinterpret my post. This is English Wikipedia. The RfC is about what this country is known as by English speakers around the world. The thoughts of someone not comfortable with English are largely irrelevant. And I did not ask that anyone be silenced. Such a dishonest accusation and misrepresentation shows the true contempt for free speech held by some here. Tellingly, the badly indented accusation is unsigned and, upon further investigation, can be seen to be from an anonymous IP editor. HiLo48 (talk) 21:50, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps what you are looking for is WP:COMPETENCE? (Last time I used that link in a discussion, I was threatened with a block, because it's apparently incivil to post that link in a heated debate, and that it constitutes a violation of WP:NPA. I would like to note that in this case, I am merely making a suggestion of a WP-namespace link to refer to, and I am not accusing anyone of being incompetent. And no, this disclaimer isn't an overreaction, just a "just in case".) -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 03:43, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Actually of course it shouldn't matter what people's level of competence in English is, because the point of a naming discussion is not for us all to offer our own opinions on what something "should" be called based on our personal understanding of the underlying issues or complex linguistics, but simply to look at sources and actual usage. Anyone with even the most rudimentary knowledge of English can look at all the encyclopedia, reference/almanack, official and media sources offered here and immediately see that "Taiwan" is, unquestionably, by far the most common term used to define and refer to the thing that this page is about. The problem is more that some people - including some with very good or native English - think the idea is to read round that and ignore it all in favour of their own analysis; or to assert suddenly that, for some undefined reason, wp:commonname doesn't apply here. N-HH talk/edits 11:37, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Many people in Israel, and in the Israeli media refer to Binyamin Netanyahu as Bibi. They even write in in written form in news articles. We arent' moving the Netanyahu article to Bibi. For over 50 years the Republic of China's government on Taiwan specifically emphasized in both native Chinese and foreign language English media (such as American media), that the government on Taiwan was the real china, and the PRC was an illegitimate rebel regime, referring to Taiwan as "free China", emphasizing that Taiwan was Chinese, that its people wree all descendants of chinese immigrants and spoke chinese dialects. Many American government videos emphasized that the country was "free china", its location was "taiwan", "leader of peoples of free China on the island of taiwan"

HiLo48's accusation is also invalid. Showing us a sentence where three words are ommitted is not proof that the person is not a native english speaker. He could just have been typing fast. The way he said it was "Republic of China is country name and it not same as Taiwan. Taiwan (is missing here) just a island and NOT a country."

Had he been a native chinese speaker, for instance, the word "is" (to be) is used exactly the same way in chinese as it is in english. "Wo Shi taiwan ren" (I am a taiwan person). Unlike Arabic which does not need that verb, if I said, "Ana taiwani" (literal translation would be "I Taiwanese").

His sentence shows that he knew that he should have placed an "is" in the correct place after China, but he did not add "is" after Taiwan. He knew how to use the "to be" verb very clearly and just skipped it, could have been fast typing. The Chinese sentence would be extremely like the English one with an almost 1 to 1 word correspondence "Zhonghuaminguo (Republic of China) shi(is) yige(a) guojia(country) de(possesive, like 's in english) mingzi(name)" Niyaendi (talk) 04:35, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

The problem is that now, in the 21st century the Taiwanese government is perfectly happy to call itself Taiwan. Additionally the vast, vast majority of English language sources use Taiwan to refer to the country, you might not like it but that's how the world is.

If Bibi truly is the common name for Binyamin Netanyahu then lets move the article. Bill Clinton is a good example of something that's at its WP:COMMONAME - even though that isn't his name. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 10:54, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

As Eraserhead1 says, if "Bibi" was the common name, it would be better to move the article. But a very large number of (English speaking) people who are not Israeli do not know who "Bibi" is. So that's probably why a move attempt to Bibi would fail. However, in comparison everyone knows what Taiwan is, unless they know virtually nothing about Asian geography. You'll be hard pressed to find people who know what the ROC is but not what Taiwan is. However, there are people that know of Taiwan but not the ROC/don't understand what the ROC is. John Smith's (talk) 12:40, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure this is even worth replying to, given how fatuous the "bibi" example is. First, it is not as common or as clear as Binyamin Netanyahu anyway; secondly, it is a nickname. Our naming rules - especially when applied to country articles - are quite clear that we prefer the common name as found in reliable and authoritative sources; and fairly obviously, as a purported encylocpedia, we are going to use more formal, although not necessarily official, names and terms. It's not hard. N-HH talk/edits 13:27, 4 March 2012 (UTC)