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July 26

Remonstrate

I would like an opinion (or more than one) on the use of the word "remonstrate" in the article Brideshead Revisited (film)#Comparison of Movie to Novel. (first paragraph in the section.)

It's a word I never use. I think it is used incorrectly here.

Thanks, Wanderer57 (talk) 01:23, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Definitely wrong. Remonstrate is an intransitive verb, so she couldn't remonstrate Charles. Also, we should avoid fairly obscure words if possible. I've replaced it with "rebuke". Clarityfiend (talk) 05:43, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

(conflict) The first definition of remonstrate doesn't apply but it was not "definitely wrong" as stated by clarityfiend. However, the word is obsolete no matter what way it is being usedOmahapubliclibrary (talk) 22:53, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

To point out (a fault, etc.) to another by way of reproof, disapprobation, or complaint; to protest against (a wrong).

To point out, state, or represent (a grievance, etc.) to some authority

To make a strong request to a person not to do something

To urge strong reasons against a course of action, to protest against; to expostulate with a person, on or upon an action.

Hmmm...I appear to be wrong. Although I've never heard or read it being used that way, it can be transitive. Go ahead, remonstrate me. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:13, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, you obviously can use it transitively. It's just that no dictionary or style guide I've ever seen would support that usage. -- JackofOz (talk) 01:25, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

'Remonstrate' can be used transitively, but the direct object is the matter of the remonstration. It's used like the word 'say'. "He remonstrated 'you mustn't ask for permission.'"

Original

In cases like the original Xbox and the original Mario Party, what would they be called (apart from "the original whatever") to distinguish them from other products with similar names? 58.165.52.72 (talk) 06:29, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

eponymous perhaps?87.102.86.73 (talk) 09:09, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

vanilla is an expression that might apply here, as described in the last paragraph of that article. However, from my experience it is more often used to mean versions of games/software without add-ons, expansions or patches, as opposed to original versions of series. /Coffeeshivers (talk) 09:54, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I would call them Xbox and Mario Party. It is the later products that need to be given different names. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 12:30, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia has a list of retronyms. -- Wavelength (talk) 15:24, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand what kind of an answer you're looking for here. I mean, The Xbox is the Xbox. The Xbox 360 is the new version of it. I mean, people like to just say "Xbox" a lot of the time even when they're talking about the newer console, but you don't see the official material referring to the current generation version of the console as just "Xbox" (except perhaps when they're referring to the whole brand, not the device itself). It's really pretty straightforward.

As for Mario Party, that's equally uncomplicated. If there are multiple versions of the game for different platforms, then we specify which version of the game we're talking about, if and as required. The later versions of the same product are generally not known by the same name here, either; the sequel to Mario Party, for example, isn't called Mario Party, it's called Mario Party 2. Of course, sometimes someone may actually decide to publish a new version of a product with the exact same name (or another product that has the same name as an earlier product, even). That can get confusing, but even then, it's generally not difficult to distinguish between the two products if people just bother to do so. I mean, certainly you can just talk about Indiana Jones movies and call them all "Indiana Jones", for example, but it's not exactly hard to specify which one you're talking about. But all this seems so obvious to me that I wonder if you meant something else entirely... -- Captain Disdain (talk) 21:41, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Foreign Language References

Is the use of Foreign Language References acceptable as several articles are getting into revert battles with a poster who has put up a string of references in Russian to justify additions to the article edits. As 95% + of the English Language Wikipedia will not Read rusian the validity of such refs is questionable. see here for Articles; History_of_steam_road_vehicles Pipeline_transport History_of_the_automobile and associated talk pages, posted by user Special:Contributions/79.176.154.152 Related article also have posts by a user now blocked. - BulldozerD11 (talk) 15:59, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

This isn't the right place to discuss this. I'd try the Policy village pump. —Angr 16:25, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Trying to find the right place / help as a language issue , tried looking in refs and various policies sections to no result, ok ill try that then thanks - BulldozerD11 (talk) 16:38, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd searched for an answer to this myself once, dealing with a Dutch book. The refs for it were also all in Dutch. The conclusion seemed to be that foreign language refs should only be used if no equivalent English language refs can be found. StuRat (talk) 05:33, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Vowels

In school I was taught that there are 5 vowels in English (a,e,i,o,u) and now sometimes see that y is also considered a vowel. Then according to the WP English language#Vowels there are quite a few more. I think this may have something to do with whether we are talking about letters which are vowels or vowel sounds which are found in the language. Am I correct? And if so, when considering vowel letters how many are there? 5 or 6? --212.120.246.239 (talk) 18:29, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you are right that it makes a difference whether one is talking about vowel letters or vowel sounds. The usual trope is that the vowel letters of English are A, E, I, O, U and sometimes Y: in a word like "yellow", "y" is standing for a consonant, while in a word like "happy" it's standing for a vowel. So there are six letters that can be used to represent vowels, and five letters that can be used only to represent vowels. (That's the short answer. The long answer is that "e" doesn't always represent a vowel sound either, since silent e in words like "face" doesn't represent any sound at all, and "w" represents a vowel in a tiny number of Welsh loanwords like crwth and cwm as well as helping to represent a vowel in words like "law" and "cow".) —Angr 18:38, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

The chart you linked to is just the technical way of talking about things like "long o" vs "short o" you usually only see the IPA in dictionaries. Omahapubliclibrary (talk) 22:27, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

In practice Y represents a vowel sound in English significantly more often than it represents a consonant (and even when it's a consonant it's really a semivowel). Wheel of Fortune does the English-speaking world a significant disservice by treating it as a consonant all the time. For example, in this question and the responses so far (excluding words quoted as examples), we see Y as a consonant in "yes" and "you", but as a vowel in "many", "July", "only", "any", "tiny", "usually", "only", "Omahapubliclibrary", "significantly", "really", and "by". In addition, in the words "may", "always", and "way", the combination "ay" represents a vowel sound and if we have to count Y as a vowel or consonant it only makes sense to call it a vowel there too. --Anonymous, 03:38 UTC, July 27, 2008.

It's not quite right that long & short pairs effectively describe the English vowel system as there're more than 10 vowels in English including the diphthongs. The long-short is mostly an orthographic patterning. The vowel in law doesn't fit in the long-short orthographic pattern. And the long-short pattern is complicated by the fact that there're 2 long-short patterns for the letter u.

Another way to look at the y in ay is to consider it to be neither a "consonant" nor a "vowel" but rather a kind of sound modification marker — like the "silent E" example above. Consider the symbol a as representing two different vowel sounds: the default is "short" a as in plan. In order to get the other vowel value there needs to be a marker which can be a "silent e" (ex: plane) or an immediately-following i or y marker (exs: plain, play). English orthography is more complicated than a simple vowel-consonant dichotomy and scholarly treatments of the system talk about the multifunctionality of the symbols. – ishwar  (speak) 06:23, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Psammoma body

What would the etymology of this word be? I'm trying to find it for the wiktionary entry. Finnish? Nadando (talk) 21:37, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

The article itself says it's from Greek psammos, "sand". —Angr 21:42, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

OED: German Psammoma (R. Virchow Die krankhaften Geschwülste (1864-5) II. 108; now Psammom) ancient Greek sand. Psammoma first appeared in English text around the 1870s and psammoma body about 20 years later. Omahapubliclibrary (talk) 22:31, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

So that's why 'It' is called a Psammead... Aw, I love that story. She'sGotSpies (talk) 22:44, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Cree dialect continuum

Is there one standard or dialect within the Cree dialect continuum that is most intelligible by all speakers of the continuum? I want a solution that is understandable from Plains Cree to Innu. Is it possible with just one language or standard? Or would, say, two dialects/standards need to be chosen to cover all speakers from Plains to Innu and everything in between?--Sonjaaa (talk) 22:11, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Looks like at least two or three.[1] Rmhermen (talk) 02:01, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Yet

Can a sentence properly begin with the word 'yet'?

Yes. Strad (talk) 23:51, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

"Yet again, a politician gave a speech." 02:26, 27 July 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by OtherDave (talk • contribs)

If word yet is being used as an adjective than yes. However if it is being used as a conjunctive than no. Nice or in evil (talk) 04:28, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Yet this sentence begins with a conjunctive "yet". --Anonymous, 07:38 UTC, July 27, 2008.

We have an entire article which begins with Yet... --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 10:39, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

July 27

Meaning and use of the word 'accuse'

Can someone be accused of something after they are dead?

Is there a better word or phrase than 'accuse' to use in a case where someone is 'accused' after they are dead?

Thanks, Wanderer57 (talk) 13:50, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see why "accuse" couldn't be used of a dead person. If necessary, you can clarify by saying "posthumously accused". —Angr 14:05, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Hyphenated homographs

I recently made an edit in which I hyphenated a word that up till then had been spelled "coproduction" - the context was film, and it was about a co-production. I noted (semi-jocularly) in the edit summary that the original spelling could have been mistaken for copro+duction, rather than co+production. (Well, it’s not that bizarre. Copro- forms various words, as does –duction. But I won’t hazard a guess at this meaning, if you don’t mind.).

So, let’s assume some weird circumstance arose which required one to coin a new word, and the best candidate you could think of was copro+duction. I suppose if you really couldn’t come up with anything better, you’d be obliged to hyphenate it copro-duction to avoid the ambiguity with co-production. Given that the hyphens appear in different places in these words that are otherwise identically spelled, would they still be classified as homographs? Are there other examples of word pairs that are distinguished in their spelling only by the placement of a hyphen? -- JackofOz (talk) 14:54, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes: unionized/un-ionized. Algebraist 14:58, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I can think of several examples where one word is hyphenated and the other isn't (re-creation vs. recreation, pro-verb vs. proverb), but I'm not thinking of any where both words are hyphenated but in different places like *co-production (which really shouldn't be hyphenated) vs. *copro-duction. —Angr 15:03, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Different people are rarely consistent about these things. I would have said that "unionized" rather than "un-ionized", "recreation" rather than "re-creation", "proverb" rather than "pro-verb", and "co-production" rather than "coproduction" were the more common forms -- exactly the opposite of what the previous reply suggests. (In support of the first of these, I'll note that Isaac Asimov once suggested that a test to tell whether someone was a chemist was to ask them how "unionized" is pronounced.) But the real point is just that usage varies.

I would say that the answer to Jack's question "do they count as homographs" is simply that the purpose of using the hyphens is precisely to keep them from being homographs. So "resent" (present tense) and "resent" (past tense) are homographs, but if you use the alternate spelling "re-sent" for the second one, then they aren't. --Anonymous, 22:33 UTC, July 27, 2008.

Thanks. I've just thought of another example: "resign", to quit a job, vs. "re-sign", to renew a contract (often in a sporting context), but the latter is sometimes spelled without the hyphen.

Anon's answer is interesting, in the light of Ishwar's comments in a previous thread about alternative spellings such as "governor-general" vs. "governor general".

• If you use the linguistically-oriented definition of “word”, then these are considered the same word. Because one has a hyphen and the other doesn’t, they would not be homographs. But they are still homophones. Or are they? Homophones differ in meaning, whereas these refer to the same general type of office. The only differentiation is that the hyphenated version refers to the office in Australia (and some other countries), whereas the unhyphenated version refers to the office in Canada (and some other countries).
• But if you use the orthographic definition of “word”, “governor-general” is a one-word title and “governor general” is a two-word title. They fit the definition of homograph even less than under the previous definition, mainly because we’re no longer even comparing 2 single words. But they’re still homophones, assuming one can use this term when comparing expressions that are not necessarily restricted to one word each. Is this a valid conclusion? I'm a little confused because we're told that a homophone is "a word that is pronounced the same as another word but differs in meaning". Nothing about multiple-word expressions. Until we read about "oronyms", which are said to be a sub-set of homophones, except that all the examples given use more than one word. So, is the definition of homophone lacking something, or is the word "word" being used in its linguistically-oriented definition rather than its orthographic definition? -- JackofOz (talk) 23:46, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think any of the examples listed above count as homophones; I don't pronounce "un-ionized" the same as "unionized", for example. I would say that the hyphenation exists specifically to assist readers in recognizing where the stresses/syllables should go, thereby identifying whether the word used is "re-creation" or "recreation". Matt Deres (talk) 16:28, 29 July 2008 (UTC) D'oh! Never mind; I thought you were still talking about the earlier examples when you're clearly just talking about governor general. Sorry. Matt Deres (talk) 19:12, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "Eugène Ysaÿe"

How is Eugène Ysaÿe's name pronounced? I would guess [yoo-ZHEN] for the first name, but I have no idea for the surname. --bdesham ★ 16:38, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

In IPA, [øʒɛn iza.i] (the last name is three syllables). A non-IPA approximation is something like "ur-ZHEN ee-zah-EE", using a non-rhotic pronunciation of "ur" as in "nurse". —Angr 16:53, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank god for non-IPA for the "rest-of-us". -hydnjo talk 05:34, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the help! --bdesham ★ 02:23, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

selling and definition

My team in a spelling bee misspelled a word that I would like to learn more about. The word is supposed to be in the Webseter's Third New Internationa Dicstionary but I can't find it. I believe the correct spelling is recumbintebous.

Can you help? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.119.91.232 (talk) 18:32, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Recumbentibus? It is to be found in the unabridged Webster. Knocked you out, it seems... --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 18:56, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

PS: Recumbentibus is the ablative plural of recumbens, which is the present active participle of recumbere, to recline. That´s in Latin, BTW. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 18:59, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

1st Grade Question

I feel really stupid asking this question, but what is the name for two or more words the sound the same but are spelled different with different meanings. Two, to,too. Raze and raise. Also, are their any other of this type of word that (like raze and raise) and opposites. thanks.--Xtothe3rd (talk) 18:52, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

• 1 is homophone. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:25, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Then what do you call a phallus-shaped telephone used by gay men ? :-) StuRat (talk) 17:53, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• 2 There is the term contronym, but it refers to a single word which - dependending on the context - can have opposite meaning. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:41, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
• 3 We got a list on -onym, which you may peruse for some delectable linguistic musings. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:58, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

For the 2nd question, would "cleave" apply? Spelled the same, but with two opposing definitions - to split apart, to stick together. Corvus cornix_talk 21:27, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, thats a perfect answer. --Xtothe3rd (talk) 22:28, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

You actually used a homophone in your question - "are their any other uses ...". The spelling in this case is "there". Homophones are often at the root of mistaken spellings. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:54, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Loath and loathe --Endless Dan 20:16, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Possibly in your accent :) 79.66.32.107 (talk) 00:50, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

"Better The Devil You Know"

I was thinking about the English phrase, "better the devil you know", meaning, essentially, that its better to stick with a situation that you know about rather than risking a new unknown situation. But in such a situation where you have to chose between the devil you know and the one you don't, the decision, ultimately, is subjective - but in an English speaking culture, such a decision would be completely biased by the presence of this phrase.

However, in another language, the equivilant phrase could be more along the lines of "better the devil you haven't met yet", and in that culture, such a decision would be biased in the completely different direction. So basically, what I'd like to ask is whether people know whether common phrases in other languages favour the devil you know, or the devil you don't, a quick straw-poll if you will.

Thanks. Ninebucks (talk) 21:25, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd be surprised in English doesn't have some sayings that mean the opposite thing. For example, "I'll cross that bridge when I get to it" (or my variation, "I'll burn that bridge when I get to it"), could mean you will solve the immediate problem, even though that may lead to more serious problems "down the road". StuRat (talk) 17:50, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I think the phrase is based on a common human tendency to prefer the status quo in case of uncertainty, so I would estimate that opposing proverbs are probably few-to-none. I would be interested to see a counterexample if anybody knows one, though. --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 20:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

answers.com and Google translate offers these, not all terribly close approximations:

language	original	mostly-machine translation
Danish	man ved hvad man har	we know what we have
French	un homme averti en vaut deux (Prov) / mieux vaut un danger que l'on connaît (qu'un danger que l'on ne connaît pas)	forewarned is forearmed / better a danger that we know (than a danger that we don't know)
German	lieber das bekannte Übel	prefer the known evil
Greek	καλύτερα αντιμετωπίζεις τον εχθρό που γνωρίζεις	Selling antimetopizeis the enemy you know better face the danger you know
Italian	mai lasciare il certo per l'incerto	never leave the certain for the uncertain
Portuguese	antes o mal conhecido	before the evil known
Russian	кабы знать где упасть	Cape know where tumbling **
Spanish	más vale malo conocido que bueno por conocer	better known evil than good (that is) yet to know
Chinese	你完蛋了	You finished the

jnestorius^(talk) 21:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

"Better the devil you know" isn't just about preserving the status quo, 'though that can be the effect. It's about facing a problem you know more about rather than leaping, without looking, into a something that could be just as bad or worse, but which you are not equipped to deal with. Forewarned is forearmed. If you can't be forewarned, and there's no indication that the devil you don't know is better than the devil you do, you're probably better off staying in a situation you can manipulate. I could draw you a grid of potential outcomes :D Of course, Fortune favours the brave so we should seize the day because the early bird catches the worm. And a change is as good as a rest, so maybe you should just go with that worse devil after all. 79.66.124.253 (talk) 23:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

** I don't know the expression кабы знать где упасть, but I can make some comments on the machine translation. кабы does not mean "cape", but it's an old word meaning "if". упасть is the verb "to fall". It's more like "[You'll be better off] if you know where you're falling", or "Watch your step". -- JackofOz (talk) 23:36, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand why "Ni wan dan le," the Chinese above, is included in this context. It does, in fact, mean "you're finished" (in the sense of "done for" or "up the creek without a paddle and sinking fast"), but how does that relate to the topic at hand? DOR (HK) (talk) 02:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

this is not real

July 28

French accent

Just hearing Piaf's Milord, her accent seems especially fruity on the r's (and not only) compared to some current French films and tv series. Her diction is strong and clear, but I was wondering if her accent is of the time, cultural or regional in some way. Julia Rossi (talk) 01:35, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

It is typical Parisian accent of that time. Today's Parisians do not really have an accent any more, unfortunately, it has been lost in the massive immigration form all over the country. --Lgriot (talk) 02:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah, thanks. It sounds truly rich, feeling and emphatic -- sorry it's lost. Julia Rossi (talk) 02:50, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

You and I are obviously listening to the same radio station, Julia (ABC Classic FM). You have very good taste .. but I already knew that. -- JackofOz (talk) 03:07, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Ahaha. God Jack, of course! Julia Rossi (talk) 03:14, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

COULD YOU INCONSIDERATE FOLKS TURN THE RADIO DOWN, it´s 3AM. Btw, is Clive Robertson still around? Like other great men <sounds of sycophantic grovelling in the slime down under>, conceived in Katoomba, I just read... --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 06:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

PS: Many a hangover was made bearable by him and Caroline Jones on ABC. Non, je ne regrette rien...--Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 06:55, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

You;ll find your man here: Clive Robertson (journalist) but Caroline Jones is begging for an article. Cooky2 you really are an Austr(al)ian. Come home, Julia Rossi (talk) 08:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I weep daily when I turn the radio on and hear people other than Clive Robertson presenting music. Sure, he upset a lot of people with his style - but that's almost the point, isn't it. There's nothing like a good polariser on radio. As long as I'm in their camp, that is. If I don't see things their way, they're the worst in the world. Sounds like a pretty reasonable approach.  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 09:12, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

JackOz, here[2] you can email him at radio 2UE, : ) I heard a Throsby interview with him sometime last year so you could track that down too if you're keen. Julia Rossi (talk) 09:26, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Name of a fountain in italics?

In this discussion, one user has suggested that the name of Crown Fountain be placed in italics, since it is a type of sculpture. Is this correct? I'm not used to seeing the names of fountains written in italics, and I haven't found anything on Google Books that puts this particular fountain's name in italics. Any help would be great. Zagalejo^^^ 06:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

If it's simply a proper noun, capital initials are all that is required. According to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (text formatting), italics may be used to indicate the titles of works of visual art. Italics are never used for article titles.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 16:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Right, I'm just asking about the name of the fountain as rendered in the body of the article. Zagalejo^^^ 19:17, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Neither Buckingham Fountain (also in Chicago) or the Trevi Fountain (the most famous one I could think of) use italics so I don't think it is necessary in Wikipedia's style for fountain names. Rmhermen (talk) 18:12, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Do other style guides (eg, Chicago) say anything specific about fountain names? Zagalejo^^^ 19:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

The fact that it is a fountain is not relevant. The point at issue here is that titles of works of visual art are to be italicized, so although it looks a bit odd, if that is its official title and it's being described as a work of art, italics would seem to be required (though hardly essential).--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:07, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I thought he was asking if decorative fountains normally are considered works of art, and from there the rest of your points would follow. I would say it depends on the particular example; check what the sources say and do accordingly. --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 09:30, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

EasyJet/easyJet

Can I just confirm that as per Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(capital_letters)#Mixed_or_non-capitalization, the trademark EasyJet (which is stylised as easyJet) should be correctly capitalised as EasyJet. Cheers Nouse4aname (talk) 08:40, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

no it should not as it is a proper noun and idiomatically stylized.^MY♥_INchile 23:47, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Stellette pasta

What's the proper translation from Italian for this type of pasta? Is it star-shaped or star-like or little stars? Or is it none of these, is it just a made-up word? Google translator doesn't translate it. Jooler (talk) 11:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Stellette literally means "little stars"; however, I think it's common practice not to translate the names of Italian Pasta dishes (they are proper names after all). We don't usually call Farfalle butterflies or Vermicelli little worms -- Ferkelparade π 12:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

So if you were referring to a pattern on cloth that consisted of little stars, would you be more likely to use 'stellette' or 'po 'di stelle' or 'piccola stelle' which is what Google translator gives for "little stars" and "tiny stars"? These are obviously plural, if you wanted to call a child a "little star" what would you use? Jooler (talk) 12:55, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

If I wanted to translate the pasta into English, I'd call it stellate pasta, with an a. --Kjoonlee 15:12, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

For the inanimate pattern, you can use "piccole stelle" (plural) or "stellette". "Un po' di stelle" refers to multitude, not size, and would mean "a little bit of stars" (better: "a few stars"). For the animate child, I'd use the feminine singular diminutive suffix "-ina" (instead of "-etta"): "Sei una stellina!" ("stellina" can also mean starlet, even though "la starlet" exists as well, as does "l'attricetta". ---Sluzzelin talk 19:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

"Stelline" would work for the pattern too. As the Italian subsection of the article on diminutive correctly states, the rule of animate "-ino/-ina" and inanimate "-etto/etta" is weak, and there are many counterexamples; one is the attricetta given above, although the objectification is intentional in that case. ---Sluzzelin talk 19:29, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe pasta shapes are proper names; they're rarely capitalized. And I think "stellate", as an English word, is very technical; I am put in mind of stellation. Ditto "stelline", which puts me in mind of nothing at all. I would use "star-shaped" for stellette in general; for "covered with stellette", you could go with "star-spangled"; for the pasta I think star pasta might do, if translation is needed at all. jnestorius^(talk) 20:09, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

(By "stelline", I meant the plural of the Italian noun "stellina", not a made-up English adjective. Only mentioning it, because no one else typed "stelline". ---Sluzzelin talk 20:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Some of the responders have got the wrong end of the stick here. I don't want an english name for the pasta. The reason I asked this question is because my wife was feeding my seven-month old son stellette pasta mixed in with some other baby mush, and while she was doing it she called him her "stellette". I was busy doing something on my laptop at the time and didn't know what she was feeding him or that there was even such a pasta shape in the first place, but when she called him that, I queried it and she said she was calling him a little star in Italian. Being the anal, know-it-all, geek that I am immediately Googled it to prove that what she was saying was did not mean "little star", at least in respect of a name for a little child. Would "Sei una stellina!" still be correct for a baby boy?Jooler (talk) 22:40, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

If he's a sharp kid, you could ditch the mush and just call him stiletto. Might be awkward in the teen years if the name sticks, but it could toughen him up. Matt Deres (talk) 19:19, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Not quite a "duty"?

Salutations. I'm trying to write an essay to encourage a certain form of behaviour from editors who share my wiki philosophy. I don't want to say we have a duty to behave like this, I want to intimate that it would be good form of us to do so, being generous in victory. I've tried searching online thesauruses (proper plural anyone?), but couldn't find anything precise enough. So my request, oh skilled linguist is for a word that connotes to one's fellow traveller's that it is something less than a moral obligation, but more necessary for the wellbeing of the project than an admirable virtue. Any suggestions? Skomorokh 14:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Roget's #894 ("Courtesy") has a bunch of words that might be of use? (For reference I found that by doing a "text query" for "duty".) --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 15:31, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid none of the linked words suffice. My sentence is something analogous to the following "The Communist's X: Although it is not mandatory, Communists who successfully overthrow a country's capitalist regime have an x to try and improve the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants, including the former oppressors." Skomorokh 20:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see where you're coming from now. I like wikt:desideratum, but that might be considered too obscure a word by some? Can't think of anything better so far... --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 20:45, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

That is a delicious find! One worry, would "The Communist's Desideratum", referring to any Communist, imply that all Communists consider the thing desirable? Not all of my communists might, but I want to say its desirable for communists to do. Skomorokh 21:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

To clarify, in the above example sentence, it seems like the x would be the desideratum of the capitalists rather than the communists ("if you're going to overthrow us, we desire you to treat us nicely" rather than "if we overthrow you, we would desire to treat you nicely"). Skomorokh 21:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Some kind of -onym?

The "1st grade question" from yesterday that led to a discussion about contronyms got my girlfriend and me talking about other fun onyms ('cuz we're geeks like that). Is there a word for something like a contronym, but instead of one word having two opposing meanings, involves two words or phrases which mean the same thing but would seem to mean opposing things? I guess this really only works for slang words/phrases. Example: "Knock off" and "Hold up" both mean "to rob" (i.e., "They knocked off/held up that liquor store"). "Bad" (itself a contronym) and "good" can both mean ... well, "good" (if we're still in the 1980's, I guess). I guess this particular phenomenon wouldn't necessarily get a name since it applies to slang words ... can't think of any proper examples. Dgcopter (talk) 17:53, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Ravel and unravel, flammable and inflammable meaning the same thing? ;) --Kjoonlee 19:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Hey, there ya go! The inflammable/flammable thing is a good example of what I mean. I guess it's the concept of "visual antonyms" ... words that look like they'd mean opposite things, but really mean the same thing. Kind of like the concept of false cognates Er, rather, false friends (always thought those were the same thing...thanks for learnin' me something, 'pedia!). Dgcopter (talk) 19:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

There's also "press" and "depress"! Wiktionary seems to list wikt:inflammable as a contranym, are they right? Who knows! :-) --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 20:40, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Two of my favorites: "to" and "unto", and "till" and "until". ;-) —Angr 21:18, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Heh, I guess those are visual antonyms...Well, since there doesn't seem to be a term for this particular phenomenon, I propose either "visual antonym" or -- in the spirit of "false friends" -- "false enemies". Dgcopter (talk) 21:26, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

The dis- of disgruntled, disannul and disembowel is an intensive, not a negation; the words mean the same without it. jnestorius^(talk) 22:29, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this is quite in the ballpark, but there was a famous British criminal case from the (?) 60s where a young man was convicted of shooting dead a police officer. There's a long story, most of the details of which I don't know, but it came down to an encounter where the police turned up, asked him to hand over his gun, and the man's accomplice said "Let him have it". Somehow the gun went off and the police officer was killed. The man claimed in court that he understood "Let him have it" to mean "hand over the gun", and he was in the process of doing that when somehow it went off accidentally. The prosecution argued that he understood "Let him have it" to mean "Shoot him", and that the firing was intentional.

Oh, here we go - the movie they made about it was called Let Him Have It, and further details are there. It was 1952. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:20, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an article about "-onym". -- Wavelength (talk) 00:13, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Dgcopter, BTW, do you know that there are words that look like synonyms or near-synonyms but actually aren't? Ultimate and penultimate comes to mind. --Kjoonlee 02:00, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Sure ... is there a word for that? Language is funny. Dgcopter (talk) 04:55, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Huh? Ultimate and penultimate are near-synonyms: "last" and "second last". jnestorius^(talk) 15:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

In many practical senses, they're close in meaning. In a race involving 30 horses, it hardly matters whether Flying Boy comes last or only second last. (Although, in a 2-horse race, "second last" would actually refer to the winner.) But in a grammatical sense, they're very different because they involve clearly distinct concepts, as separate as 999 is from 1000, or "black" is from "very dark". -- JackofOz (talk) 03:44, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

As far as idioms go, don't forget could care less/couldn't care less, a lovely source for internet backdraft. Baranxtu (talk) 12:46, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

How seriously is the linguistic community taking the Saphir-Whorf Hypothesis today?

thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.240.186.7 (talk) 18:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

According to Sapir–Whorf hypothesis#Influence and reactions, "Today researchers disagree—often intensely—about how strongly language influences thought". -- Wavelength (talk) 18:44, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

That sounds rather diplomatic to me. In my experience, professional linguists consider the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis to be flat-out wrong: thought influences language, not the other way around. It's mostly non-linguists who believe language influences thought. —Angr 21:17, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, how does it work in this case. In English it's always the idea of I am what I am - I'm angry, for example. I can't remember how it is worded in French, but isn't the literal translation something like "I anger myself about ___..." Rather than "I'm angry about ____"? Why wouldn't that kind of thing influence thought? To me it's a lot different to say "I'm angry" than allowing for the choice of getting angry? Or is it that way just as a result of French culture? Thanks, --Falconus^{p t c} 22:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I think it's a mistake to read too much into differences of wording. Think about the sentence "I'd like a beer, please." "Please" is short for "if you please", so what you're saying, literally, is that you would hypothetically enjoy a beer if one happened to be brought to you, provided that be the listener's pleasure. But that's not what you're thinking when you say it, and it's not what you hear when someone says it to you. For practical purposes, at least to a fluent speaker, it might as well be "Idlikeplease a beer", and "Idlikeplease" might as well be short for "give me". The words don't matter nearly as much as what they imply about the speaker, and since it's considered impolite in most circumstances to say "give me a beer", about all you can conclude from "I'd like a beer, please" is that the speaker wants a beer and knows the customary way to ask for it. It doesn't tell you much about how they think. -- BenRG (talk) 00:24, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Funny. I'd consider "I'd like a beer, please." to be quite a rude way to ask for a beer, unless it immediately followed "What would you like to drink?" and even then it's a bit iffy. It carries connotations of expecting people to serve your whims, and feels snotty and presumptuous. The polite, customary way of asking 'round here would be the more circuitous "Could I have a beer, please?", "Could I get a beer please?" or "Do you think you could pass me a beer?", "Do you think I could have a beer?", "Would it be possible to have a beer?", etc etc. Now, you may think this doesn't tell you anything about how people think... 79.66.124.253 (talk) 02:42, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

It tells you what you perceive about people, but I think that's irrelevant. --Kjoonlee 02:51, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Irrelevant? Ooookay. 79.66.124.253 (talk) 02:56, 29 July 2008 (UTC) It does occur to me that perhaps it was unclear that I was comparing cultural norms, rather than suggesting that a given phrase was objectively rude. Was that unclear? Or am I misreading curtness in Kjoonlee that was unintended? Or a third option? 79.66.124.253 (talk) 03:05, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I think that sort of request ("I'd like a beer, please") would be received very differently depending on whether it was spoken gruffly with a scowl, as opposed to to with a cheery tone of voice and a big smile on your face. The essence of the communication would come from the non-verbals. Naturally, discussing such requests in a written forum like this has its limitations, because all we have to go on is the words. It's sometimes tempting to assume a certain affect display on the part of the speaker/writer, but their real affect may be markedly different. -- JackofOz (talk) 06:12, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I would agree it comes down to the inflexion and non-verbal cues but I must say I wouldn't consider walking up to a barman and saying 'I'd like a beer please' rude; possibly clumsy but not rude. I've noticed when going out for dinner with friends that some will ask the waiter 'Would it be possible to have the salmon and then the steak please?' (usually with increasing pitch towards the end); I think they go too far to try and avoid the concerns 79.66.124.253 was alluding to, when simply telling him what you want suffices. If you go too far to avoid seeming demanding you can end up seeming apologetic, which is patronising in its own right..I've strayed off topic, sorry.Od6600 (talk) 10:40, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Which in turn tells us interesting things about the people who use these different forms and perceive them in different ways :) 79.66.124.253 (talk) 15:20, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Which is even more irrelevant IMHO... --Kjoonlee 16:59, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I think I chose a bad example. Just imagine a situation in which "I'd like a beer please" is a polite thing to say, or a phrase that's polite to say in the situation you were imagining. I was only saying that fluent speakers unconsciously "hear through" the word choice to the underlying intent, and I still think that's true, notwithstanding my bad choice of words. -- BenRG (talk) 20:22, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

All the real linguists I've met and talked to in real life think that the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is utter rubbish. --Kjoonlee 02:29, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay, thank you. Falconus^{p t c} 03:07, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Please see Language in Mind - The MIT Press. -- Wavelength (talk) 04:41, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I can't offer any useful comment on the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. However, I have to say I'm very puzzled as to how "I'd like a beer please." could be considered rude, assuming it is said to a bartender in a civil tone of voice. Can someone please enlighten me? Thank you. Wanderer57 (talk) 21:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

That relates to what I said above about the affect display. The civil tone of voice is what would make it an acceptable question. The exact same set of words, but spoken in an uncivil manner, would be received very differently. -- JackofOz (talk) 02:38, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I suspect it's something that can't really be explained in a rational way, since it's really just a cultural thing. But really, if someone said to me in the nicest way possible "I'd like a beer, please." I would be taken aback at their presumption and rudeness. I would be able to make allowances for them coming from a different culture, but I would still hear it as rude. No matter how nicely it's said, it carries an assumption (to me, raised as I was raised, blah blah blah, all the interesting - but apparently irrelevant - aspects of linguistics and sociology) that you expressing your wish is all it takes for me to serve you. As if I'm here to wait on you. Obviously there are ways of making it worse with tone of voice, but the actual phrase itself is rude to me. What can you do? 79.66.124.253 (talk) 18:47, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

'Utter rubbish' sounds a bit extreme to me. Truly, virtually none of them accept the original common interpretation of the theory; but there's many who go back to what Sapir and Whorf actually wrote on the matter and realize that what they actually said is far more reserved and subtle than the radical strawmans that were attributed to it. Most current linguists would say that there's a relationship between the two and although they vary in opinion about the extent and nature of it, virtually all of them reject the traditionally understood version of the hypothesis that Edward and Benjamin would most likely have rejected as well. The more generally accepted 'tempered' versions of it are actually closer to what was originally said. On a side note, just because someone is a linguist doesn't mean they're really qualified to speak professionally on all aspects of linguistics. I wouldn't let a urologist perform brain surgery on me. -LambaJan (talk) 03:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Angr and others who think the Sapir Whorf hypothesis has been discarded are wrong. Firstly the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis has different formulations all of which have been posited by their opponents not by themselves. The strongest version is that Language determines thought. This has been discarded, and furthermore there is very little evidence that Sapir and Whorf themselves actually held this opinion. The weak one is that "language influences thought" and this version has been proven to be right so many times that it is nearly trivial. Accodirng to those who now work with the subject (linguists like Barry Levinson, John Gumperz, John Haviland, John Lucy, George Lakoff and others) the think to find out now is to "what degree language influences thought". Some studies about this have been published, among other places in the influential anthology "Rethinking Linguistic Relativity" and have shown that the hypothesis of linguistic relativity (a better name for the sapir whorf hypothesis) even holds water in some enviroments where it would have been thought not to. Examples are peoples whose language lacks terms for right/left and who apparently orientate themselves purely by the cardinal directions and have a very hard time learning the notion of left/right. And the Pirahã whose language lacks quantifiers and who therefore have extreme difficulties in learning how to count and calculate. 16:11, 2 August 2008 (UTC)·Maunus·ƛ·

"Kabiawu" etymology

Does the name Kabiawu come from a known word in the Yoruba language? NeonMerlin 19:35, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

July 29

Need South Indian transcriptions for the word "Gautham"

in
1.) Tamil
2.) Telugu
3.) Malayalam
4.) Kannada

It's really urgent. Please help! --91.130.91.110 (talk) 00:10, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Please see Transliteration#Free online transliteration services. -- Wavelength (talk) 04:46, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Nice hint. If somebody here is a native speaker, please contact me on talk page. --91.130.91.110 (talk) 14:33, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Tense or Tensed?

Is it wrong if I say "I'm tensed." instead of "I'm tense."? (As in, tensed due to an exam that's about to start.) La Alquimista 09:00, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Normally, it would be "I'm tense". People sometimes say "I'm all tensed up", but not "I'm tensed". -- JackofOz (talk) 08:45, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! La Alquimista 09:00, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

But Im stressed (up)?

Yep. Or "stressed out". But not "tensed out". A student coming out of a long lecture about the differences between past, present and future verbs would be "all tensed up", and one coming out of a long lecture on nuances of pronuncation might be "stressed out". :) -- JackofOz (talk) 04:55, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Thesaurus request

For some time I've been trying to find/recall a word used to describe the phenomenon of noticing things more often once they've been brought to one's attention. To try and elaborate on the loose and fluffy description; Learning a word for the first time and then reading it in a newspaper article, in your book, on the radio several times over the next few days. Similarly, when I was looking into buying a new car, suddenly the roads seemed full of a particular model that I hadn't, knowingly, ever seen before. I vaguely remember there being a word for this, possibly a German portmanteau. I think I understand the neurology/psychology of it but can't put a name to it. Any ideas (and I hope that others experience this otherwise I may need medical help..)? P.S. I don't think it's serendipity, which seems to be what most people suggest. Thanks, Od6600 (talk) 10:26, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Sensitivity? - X201 (talk) 10:55, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I might describe myself as having a heightened awareness of the thing in question, or that I was more cognizant of it, maybe? I'm afraid I don't know the possibly-German word you are thinking of, though. --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 14:35, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

The expression I'd use in German would be "selektive Wahrnehmung" - this does probably not exactly roll off the tongue if you're not a native speaker, so I don't think it is what you're looking for. -- Ferkelparade π 15:01, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I know what you mean. Hmmm, synchronicity? Confirmation bias? Neither of those exactly match... 79.66.124.253 (talk) 15:18, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I expect psychologists have a term for the phenomenon, but there is no term in general use (AFAIK). You could try the psychology help desk. Wanderer57 (talk) 15:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Increased sensitivity or sensitization —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.156.194 (talk) 02:19, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

You might be thinking of confirmation bias. —D. Monack ^talk 22:21, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

My wife and I call it the "white car phenomenon". --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:49, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

"Die Sterblichkeit..." (quoted from "Völkischer Beobachter")

In this drawing by Jo Spier, made during his internment in the Theresienstadt concentration camp, there's an inscription in German I can't quite make out, let alone translate in full. The top line is a slogan from the Völkischer Beobachter. The "Cavalier Kaserne" was (if I understand my sources correctly) a barracks for "war invalids" (BE; in AE: "disabled veterans") among the deportees, who had fought for Germany in the First World War and rated preferential living conditions in the camp. I'd appreciate help with a typed rendition of the inscription text, and its translation to English. -- Thanks, Deborahjay (talk) 11:19, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd read it as "Die Sterblichkeit in Th (presumably Theresienstadt) ist befriedigend", meaning "Mortality at Th is satisfactory" (or "at a satisfactory level") and "Sterben ist keine Angelegenheit, Leben ist das schwerere", meaning "Dying is no big deal, living is harder". I'm not quite sure about "Sterben", it's almost illegible (looks more like "Steiten", but that's not a word), but from context (with the "Leben" on the next line) I'm pretty sure that's what it reads. -- Ferkelparade π 11:33, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd say Ferkelparade has it exactly right. "Sterben" looks a little weird because it uses the shape of handwritten "r" that is still common in America but now obsolete in Germany - but it's the same handwritten "r" as in "Sterblichkeit" in the top line and in "schwerere" in the following line. We're just lucky he didn't use Kurrent! —Angr 11:43, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

The Kavalier Kaserne is mentioned in the trial of Adolf Eichmann: Ansbacher: "To the best of my knowledge this drawing shows the Schleuse... The Schleuse was the place to which people were taken after they arrived on the transport. They conveyed them into a closed courtyard where they were classified according to work potential, according to sex and age. Everyone had to pass by a check post of Czech gendarmes who seized any article which had some value, such as thermos flasks, cigarettes, writing paper, and even toilet paper... This place in the picture - where we also arrived - shows the Schleuse in the Kavalier Kaserne which was next to the Hohen Elbe hospital. From there we could see the faces of the people of Theresienstadt, who looked at us in alarm. This was our first welcome into the ghetto." Xn4 (talk) 15:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

"Unless it has been consumed by alcohol"

Can one say in English that ;

"Next time, try to use your *head*, unless what used to be inside it has been CONSUMED by alcohol over the years.”

Is "Consumed" the right word to use in such a sentence, suggesting that this drunkard that are being addressed might have had his intelligence drained by all too many years of drinking?

If "consume" is not a good word to use, then which word(s) are better to use?

Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.164.179.83 (talk • contribs) 09:17, 29 July 2008

"I'm not sure that "consumed" would get the exact sense across of someone who has been addled by drink. I might go with "pickled". - Eron^Talk 13:21, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

But pickled means only drunk there and then, no? I mean like brain-addled as you say after years of drinking, so that the person now comes out as rather dumb, and it is not reverseable... What about simply using ADDLED?

"Next time, try to use your *head*, unless what used to be inside it has been ADDLED by alcohol over the years.”

But if "pickled" is the best word to use, then ok I guess.. I cna only say thank you ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.164.179.83 (talk • contribs) 09:27, 29 July 2008

I wouldn't say "pickled" is the best word, it's just the word that I would use to express that thought. You are trying to find a way to express the idea that a person's intellectual ability has been affected by chronic alcohol abuse. Unless you use strictly literal or medical terms, any way you express it will be somehow symbolic. I wouldn't use consumed, myself, because that suggests that the person's head has actually been physically emptied out. But really, this isn't a question that has a single right or best answer. "Addled" would work just as well. - Eron^Talk 13:57, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

...Compare the phrase "consumed by fire".87.102.86.73 (talk) 18:38, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

The difference is that fire actually consumes things as a natural course of existing. Alcohol doesn't consume nearly as much as it is consumed. Alcohol does dilute which might be a decent choice. Leftus (talk) 06:13, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

What about 'negatively impacted' or 'affected by' or maybe 'impaired by' I personally would say impaired by, it sounds more encyclopedic IMHO. Landon1980 (talk) 20:02, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

My Merriam-Webster has 'fried' as meaning 'intoxicated'. They dated this as first used in 1926.

In this usage, 'fried' means 'currently intoxicated'. However, the use of the word has been extended to refer to longer term effects as well. For example, "He fried his brain cells years ago."

A complication with this usage is that it could refer to use of alcohol or to use of other drugs.

Wanderer57 (talk) 00:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Eroded, wasted, done? Julia Rossi (talk) 05:47, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) I actually like "pickled", because something does not become pickled immediately just by placing it in (some liquid), it become pickled from soaking in said liquid. Thus, the concept of time is built into the word. --LarryMac | Talk 18:38, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I like eroded myself, as Julia suggested. It's something liquid can do, and it does take time to erode, much like the effects of alcohol. And it's permanent, more or less. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 17:25, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

OO? 00?

The washroom page at present only mentions "WC" to mark a public lavatory. What about the double-zero, or is this a double letter "O"? I don't even know which it is, and the disambiguation pages for both don't mention this usage, or did I miss something? Which symbol is it, what's the derivation, in which countries does its use predominate? -- Thanks, Deborahjay (talk) 13:27, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

According to the German article on Toilette, it is "00" (zeros), and stems from 19th century hotels which usually had their hallway toilets near the stairwell or elevator, where the numbering of rooms started as well. Thus the "toilet rooms" carried the number zero, or "00". (no sources given for this claim, unfortunately, but it might be a starting point). here is a putto directing you to the Oktoberfest's WC. ---Sluzzelin talk 13:55, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

See also "Sokol"'s comments here. ---Sluzzelin talk 14:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

In 11 years in Berlin, I have never seen "00" on a public toilet or a sign pointing the way to one. The photo you linked to is from Munich and Sokol at the forum is talking about Austria; could this be an Austro-Bavarian thing I wouldn't understand? —Angr 14:08, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't recall people referring to it as "null-null" in conversations, but I guess I must have seen it somewhere in Austria. Hope the Austros&Bavarians can shed some light here. The Austrian company at www.nullnull.at delivers and rents out toilets, I had known S. C. Johnson & Son's toilet cleaning detergent 00 for many years, but only now understand its profound etymology. ---Sluzzelin talk 15:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

(... and, of course, numbering toilets fits perfectly into the cliché of the compulsive bureaucratic Zeitgeist that was the k.u.k.). ---Sluzzelin talk 15:18, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I was once in a small Hungarian town (may be Pusztaszabolcs, I cannot remember) at the railway station. I asked for the toilets and I was told it was the door with "00" (nulla nulla) written on it. AldoSyrt (talk) 17:48, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Umm... actually the query arose in lunchroom conversation yesterday with French and Dutch colleagues (who left postwar Europe as children), but what reminded me to ask here today was encountering this caricature of the Westerbork camp, in the Jo Spier series of artworks (possibly from his Theresienstadt ghetto period, 1942-1945, though this drawing appears undated). Without delving into the literature, it seems likely (?) that the "00" was posted by the Nazi German staff rather than the local Czechs. -- Deborahjay (talk) 17:33, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Deborahjay,

• You could have asked another question:

which is better: "My phone number is Oh to...", or: "My phone number is zero two...".

Answer: doesn't matter - in English.

• You're a hebrew speaker. When hebrew speakers give a phone number, they don't say: "Oh...", nor: "Sahmekh...", but rather: "Effes..." (i.e. zero). However, when the israeli soldiers talk in Hebrew about the Second-in-Command, or the Executive Officer, they don't say: "Effes", but rather: "Sahmekh" (being a useful verbal acronym for "Sgahn"). However, the equivalent term for the public lavatory in Hebrew is: "Effes-Effes" (i.e. zero zero), rather than "Sahmekh Sahmekh" (or: "oh oh"). So not only German, but also Hebrew (which you speak), may solve the problem.

Eliko (talk) 14:40, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

• Eliko's remark about phone numbers, "Doesn't matter - in English", is not exactly right for North America. North American phones still have letters on them and the letter O corresponds to the digit 6. This is a holdover from the days when a number would be written in the style "KLondike 5-0100" or "KL5-0100" instead of the modern "555-0100" (which is how it was actually dialed), and is preserved mostly because some businesses like to choose phone numbers made up entirely of letters that spell words so you can remember them. But at least some of us learned that you do not pronounce 0 in a phone number as "oh", because O means 6. (Ambiguity is rare in practice, because nobody would express a phone number like 555-O100. So if someone says "five five five - oh one hundred", people will understand it as 555-0100. But still, some of us try not to do that.) --Anonymous, zero seven nineteen UTC, July 31, 2008.

Eliko, you're quite right that the numeral "zero" is more international than Latin-alphabetic "O"; my naming them as I did (and in haste) was only to differentiate them in phrasing the query. In fact, I can't recall ever hearing "OO"/"00" pronounced, except as a family in-joke ("Ooooh, Ooooh!" in relief at finding a direly needed public lavatory). For the record: as a native speaker of American English, I'll use either "zero" or "oh" interchangeably when speaking numbers aloud (phone #s, SSN, etc.); in fact, "oh" has the advantage of brevity unless I want to be ultraprecise. As for Hebrew usage, I've never heard a public lav referred to as anything but the all-purpose sherutim (which I roughly translate as "facilities"), which has the advantage of being a full syllable shorter than efes-efes. Then again, I've never served in the military myself, though am presently the proud mother of two IDF soldiers, conscripted a year apart, who rarely speak Hebrew to their immigrant parents except an occasional burst of bewildering acronyms. -- Deborahjay (talk) 17:54, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

You're quite right that the more useful term (in Hebrew) for a public lav is: "Sherutim". However, "Effes-Effes" is possible too (as a rare term), while "Sahmekh-Sahmekh" (or "Oh Oh") is never used in Hebrew for a public lav nor for any lav (although "Sahmekh" is used for the Executive Officer in the army, as you can realize by asking your children). Your being an immigrant - explains why you haven't heard the rare term: Effes-Effes, but you can ask other native hebrew speakers (like me) and they will approve that. Eliko (talk) 20:08, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I suppose we don't have a Wikipedia article about toilet symbols in different cultures, but that might be an interesting topic. For me both WC and 00 would be clear, as well as an ideogram of a man and a woman. But I would also recognize a symbol that I haven't seen anywhere outside my home country, that is a triangle (Gentlement) and a circle (Ladies). I wonder if other countries have other such unique toilet symbols. — Kpalion^(talk) 20:02, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

From Flickr, check out gendersigns group and Restroom signs set and restroom + signs tags jnestorius^(talk) 22:49, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

In reply to Kpalion: where are you from? In my experience, the big circle and triangle signs are sufficiently ubiquitous in California as to be mandatory; and I've never seen them anyplace outside of the state. (Maybe I don't get out enough.) After thinking about it -- exactly what purpose could a large unmistakable geometric sign serve? -- I think the most likely explanation is that California (whilst trying to get out in front of the rest of the country again) has legislated a sign that even a guide dog can understand.

I've never, in twenty-plus years, found a Californian who could definitively confirm or absolutely deny that was the case, but everyone I've asked about it (1) thought it made sense, and (2) agreed it was consistent with Things Californian.

--Danh, 67.40.167.150 (talk) 01:21, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Somehow to a German it is clear that '00' (double zero) means 'toilet', although I don't know where it comes from (it could have been a euphemism) and you don't see many toilets with such a sign nowadays. I suppose it is a bit old-fashioned. (You know the joke about the guy in a hotel in room 100, where the '1' falls off the door and all sorts of people keep turning up in his room during the night...?) -- 84.160.15.65 (talk) 13:49, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Here's a sign which throws in everything including the kitchen sink (the circle and triangle among them): http://www.othermag.org/blog.php?p=209&c=1 AnonMoos (talk) 18:29, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

(1) I was in a public building in Estonia once where the restroom doors were marked ▲ and ▼. Totally baffling until we saw another set of restrooms on a different floor where the symbols had little circles above them. Then it was clear, the little circles represented heads, ▲ represented a woman's dress, and ▼ represented a broad-shouldered, narrow-waisted man. But on one floor, the little circles had fallen off, leaving just the triangles. (2) Visitors to the Gaeltacht are sometimes thrown off by FIR (= men) and MNÁ (= women), and will often enter the wrong restroom on the assumption that the initials F and M have their familiar denotations. (3) Readers who know Ancient Greek will get this one: in the Classics building at my university, we once covered up the sign that said "WOMEN" with a sign that said simply "ΔΕ". —Angr 18:48, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Delta epsilon? Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 01:29, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

A phrase or clause with the clitic "men" followed by a phrase or clause with the clitic "de" is an ancient Greek correlative construction; "men" and "de" are somewhat notoriously difficult to translate into English as single words... AnonMoos (talk) 03:06, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Yep, AnonMoos got the joke! (The building's janitor didn't, though, and the sign came down within 24 hours.) We were taught to think of men as "on the one hand" and de as "on the other hand" but semantically weaker than those phrases in English. When translating, we left men out altogether and translated de as "but". Men could be translated into German as zwar (another particle that's very difficult to translate into English). —Angr 05:40, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I've also seen these triangles with heads in Japan although they additionally used light blue for men & pink for women. – ishwar  (speak) 19:25, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

In reply to Danh: I'm from Poland. It could be that there was at some point in history an attempt to introduce the triangle and circle as an international, unified, simplistic symbol, but it hasn't caught on except in a few isolated places like Poland and California. But that's just my guess. Angr's story about "Fir" and "Mná" reminded me of a joke about toilets in Russia. It said that toilets in regular hotels were marked "M" for "Мужчины" (Men) and "Ж" for "Женщины" (Women). But really fancy hotels had them the other way around: "M" for "Мадамы" (Mesdames) and "Ж" for "Жентелмены" (Gentlemen). I don't how much of this is true though. — Kpalion^(talk) 09:39, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I was in a hotel here in Germany that decided to avoid any possible confusion: there were paintings of a penis and a vulva next to the respective restroom doors. Can't get much more explicit than that. —Angr 09:56, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

In everyday Italian, "Signore" means "Mister" and "Signora" means "Mrs.".

Italian toilet signs use their respective plurals, where "Signori" means "Men" and "Signore" means "Women".

See Venice Public Toilets - Venice for Visitors, point 4. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:44, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

You can see some toilet signs not yet mentioned by doing a Google image search for "toilet sign". -- Wavelength (talk) 14:59, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Pronuncation of letter 'v' in Esperanto

I have been puzzling over this for some time now. Many sources, including our own Esperanto phonology page, claim that the letter 'v' in Esperanto is pronounced /v/. However, I also sometimes hear that it is somewhat like /w/ or /u/, or something similar. That vowel/semivowel pronuncation would appear to fit better with the words the letter tends to be used in - such as "lingvo" (language), in which it would be rather hard to say /lingvo/ (or /liŋgvo/), unless you perhaps aspirated the 'g' or added a schwa after it? The letter 'u' in Esperanto already stands as /u/, while 'ŭ' represents a near /w/ sound, so I also find it hard to believe they would have still yet another "u"-like sound on top of those two already. Anyway, hope you may be able to answer. Cheers. 84.13.198.10 (talk) 20:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

There are audio files of four different persons pronouncing the Esperanto word "lingvo" in the sample paragraph near the bottom of the page at Esperanto Pronounciation : Esperanta Prononco. -- Wavelength (talk) 21:37, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

That page says "The definitive Esperanto pronunciation would be professor John C. Wells and his 45 phonograph record that came out in the 70s." A recording of Esperanto pronunciation (by J. C. Wells) should play automatically when one opens the page at Esperanto Education - Pronunciation CD Track 3. The word "lingvo" is among the words spoken. -- Wavelength (talk) 05:40, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I was taught esperanto with the instruction to pronounce V as the French or English v. There is another letter for the w sound: Ǔ. --Lgriot (talk) 00:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

July 30

Mandarin and Japanese

I want to learn the Japanese language in my high school, but they don't have that kind of class here. but they do have a mandarin class. Is there any similarities between mandarin and Japanese? I hope there is so I can learn Japanese easier. --Randoman412 (talk) 02:23, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Linguistically, Japanese is an isolated language and almost as close to English as is to Chinese. Kanji, one of the Japanese character sets, is based off of Chinese, and has many loanwords. I would say that it wouldn't hurt learning Mandarin on your way to Japanese. Paragon12321 (talk) 02:31, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

About 50% of Japanese vocabulary is Sinitic (i.e. Chinese) in origin, and as mentioned Japanese partially adopted the system that Mandarin is written in. But structurally the languages are unrelated and quite dissimilar—studying Mandarin will not help you understand spoken Japanese at all, and you will probably be able to understand written Japanese about as much as an English speaker can understand written French. If you want an opinion I would say it is not worth learning Mandarin simply to then learn Japanese (both languages take considerable time and effort to grasp), but Mandarin is exotic and interesting to learn in its own right. Strad (talk) 04:36, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Also, the Japanese pronounciation of Sino-Japanese words is based on an adaptation (often quite loose and approximate) of the sounds of medieval Chinese to the sounds of medieval Japanese. Due to the sound systems of medieval Chinese and Japanese being radically different, subsequent sound changes in Chinese, subsequent sound changes in Japanese, and the fact that the words were not necessarily borrowed from a medieval Chinese dialect which was the direct ancestor of modern standard Mandarin, therefore modern Japanese and modern Mandarin Chinese pronunciations of the same character can be unrecognizably different... AnonMoos (talk) 18:13, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Generally, I think learning any new language is going to make it a little easier to learn more languages, simply because it trains you to, uh, for the lack of a better term, "abandon" the structures and conventions of your own language and embrace new ones. That's a bit of a skill in itself. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 07:09, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

And speaking pragmatically, if you're ever in Japan it would be nice to hop over to China, and vice-versa, so it's a better fit than learning Japanese and, say, Sindebele. --Sean 16:13, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Although Japanese is classified as an "isolate langauge", there is a large amount of vocabulary contained within it that came from Chinese (just in the same way that although English isn't a Romance language, it has lots of vocabulary from French, which is one). In this sense, learning Chinese will certainly help with Japanese. Not only this, but the Japanese Kanji symbols (which you will have to use when writing) come from the Chinese symbols. They are not entirely the same, but the difference between the two languages' equivalent symbols is usually insignificant. On top of this, Chinese and Japanese both require a "vaguer" thought than in English, and getting used to this in Chinese will certainly help with Japanese. Besides, learning Chinese will certainly be good for you anyway, since China is set to become the world superpower in about 20 years, and the Chinese language will open up a vast amount of job opportunities (just as English has for foreigners). Kyarichy (talk) 14:26, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

The part of the vocabulary that comes from Chinese is basically all kanji, which usually also has a different pronounciation in Japanese (even when it's based on the Chinese pronounciation). And Chinese isn't as vague as Japanese at all. The only real benefit is to get you a head start on recognizing kanji, but that also depends on how much kanji your mandarin class has, but speaking Mandarin will only have a small benefit to learning Japanese, imo. If you're really serious about learning Japanese, you should just start learning Japanese and not bother with Mandarin unless you actually want to learn Mandarin too. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 15:20, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

If you can't find a Chinese language class outside your school, perhaps you might find one on Chinese caligraphy. Learning the characters, without the spoken word, is less than ideal, but it would give you a strong boost for when you do get the chance to study Chinese. DOR (HK) (talk) 23:55, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Slovak translation request

My girlfriend has a mug she found in CzechoSlovakia featuring a middle-aged man in a hot tub with two somewhat baudy and haggard looking women. They're all holding beer glasses, and one of the women's breasts has drooped into her glass. The other woman is giving the man rabbit ears. The whole thing is quite incomprehensible. A caption below the picture reads:

Mládí už je v tahu impotence na dosah.

Can anyone shed some light? Thanks. --Sean 14:19, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Using this machine translation engine, and translating as if it were Czech (which is close, and Slovak isn't available), you get: "Youth already them within tahu impotence within reach". Which is probably of no use at all. --217.171.129.72 (talk) 15:13, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, thanks, I'd tried that with similar results. I think it would have shocked persons living 100 years ago to think that we'd put a man on the moon long before we built a translation machine (sigh). --Sean 16:09, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I kind of expected that sentence to continue "shocked to think that we'd put a man on the moon long before we got rid of these ghastly tourist kitsch thingies" -- Ferkelparade π 20:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

As a professional human translator, I'm not surprised at all. Translation requires the kind of abstract, context-dependent thinking that computers really suck at. Anyway, Google Translate gives "Youth is already in tension impotence within reach", but I strongly suspect there's some sort of risqué pun involved that no machine translator can convey. —Angr 18:36, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

What does it mean, "to give someone rabbit ears"? I have never heard this phrase, and the link provided does not help. --Lgriot (talk) 01:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

To put two fingers (in the V/peace sign) behind someone's head, poking up from behind their head. I have no idea what it means, though. Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 01:27, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

It tends to make the person look silly and the one doing it has the advantage. For the pun, does it imply something like "not as young as you feel" or along the lines of the flesh is willing but the man is passed it? Something like not being able to take advantage of the situation like saying "In your dreams". That droopy tit puzzles me -- sounds like they're all on a par. Julia Rossi (talk) 01:33, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia's discussion of rabbit ears, or bunny ears, is at V sign (including a photograph of George H. W. Bush giving Barbara Bush the bunny ears). —Angr 05:34, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Now why does this pic reverse my theory? Julia Rossi (talk) 10:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps the "rabbit ears" sign is meant to say the man is a cuckold.

Is a photo of this mug available anywhere to view? It might help in deciphering the meaning. Wanderer57 (talk) 15:42, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Possessive with two owners?

Suppose something, say, an encyclopedia, is dually owned by two or more subjects. Which is the preferable form, "Bob's and Jane's encyclopedia" or "Bob and Jane's encyclopedia"? Do you put an apostrophe-s on both owners or only the latter? What do style guides and guides to usage like Chicago, Fowler's, and MLA have to say about this? —Lowellian (reply) 20:00, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

If it's jointly owned by both of them, I'd say "Bob and Jane's encyclopedia". If they each have their own, I'd say "Bob's and Jane's encyclopedias". —Angr 20:14, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

There is a pet peeve floating around that says you must must must add an 's to both "Bob" and "Jane", but since the 's ending is no longer a case ending but an enclitic preposition, all the arguments against "Bob and Jane's" are the usual BS. (That's not to say that there aren't good reasons for choosing one over the other in different contexts.) Strad (talk) 21:25, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but I'm asking, does anyone know what style guides and guides to usage have to say about this? —Lowellian (reply) 06:37, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

It says one 's unless its plural. The englih genitive marker is an enclitic and is put at the end of the entire noun phrase. Hence it is also correct to say "the president of India's wife" not "the president's of India's wife". ·Maunus·ƛ· 16:03, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

"It says", you say. But what is "it"? Which specific style guide or guide to usage are you talking about? Different style guides and guides to usage often recommend doing different things. —Lowellian (reply) 16:39, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

These isn't about style its about english grammar.·Maunus·ƛ· 05:27, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Red lorry, yellow lorry -- plurals are easier?

Why is it easier to say 'Red lorries, yellow lorries' repeatedly fast, than 'Red lorry, yellow lorry' repeated at the same speed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.157.54 (talk) 23:56, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

The difficulty in pronouncing the singular form seems to be that "lorry" and "yellow" contain many of the same sounds, so the "lorry yellow lorry" sequence of words is tricky and tends to merge together, tripping the speaker up. The plural form adds an "s" sound in there which helps to break up the words. I find that "Yellow lorry, red lorry" is easier to say as well, since the word "red" now breaks up the sequence too.

Also, the people who sit near me in work probably think I'm insane now. --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 06:54, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Mm, to me, when I try to say it, the hard part comes from the lorry to red transistion, where both have similar R sounds so you have to pause enough to not combine it into "lor-red" or "lori-ed" or something of the sort. Basically, the latter is more like a tongue-twister through the use of more similar sounds closer together, more or less like what Grey Knight said. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 15:10, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps my accent is saving me from that part. :-) The sounds of L and R are both similar, I forgot to mention, which probably doesn't help! --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 14:03, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

There are two reasons why tongue twisters are difficult: either the sounds are too similar, or the sounds are too different. All the consonants in your example have roughly the same place of articulation, but you've got approximants, obstruents, glides, which are all different sorts of consonants. --Kjoonlee 16:28, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

No... that can't be 100% right. Some combinations of sounds are difficult, though. --Kjoonlee 16:32, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

July 31

English-Volapük translator

Is there such a thing as an English-Volepük machine translator? I have found online dictionaries but am just wondering if such a thing exists. Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 01:52, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I had a bit of a look but couldn't find one, at least on the Internet. Automatic translation is in fact a rather difficult problem, and even with the best efforts the results often leave something to be desired; so for a less well-known constructed language like Volapük, you may find that nobody has taken the time to do so yet. It would be nice to have one though. :-) --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 07:02, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Since the grammar of Volapük is essentially that of Western European languages, a crude machine translation to English using simple word lookup would probably be adequate. It shouldn't be too hard to program. What would you need it for? SamuelRiv (talk) 13:51, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll bite. Please tell me what is Volepük? This section is the only place I can find in Wikipedia where the word Volepük appears. Wanderer57 (talk) 15:48, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

A constructed language - see Volapük. Gandalf61 (talk) 16:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

We have a localised version, too! User:SamuelRiv makes a good point, I hadn't thought of just doing a simple lookup. The vo Wiktionary has 23,225 articles, but is light on English translations. You might do better getting the translation lists from the b:vo:Vödabuk Linglänapük-Volapük and b:vo:Vödabuk Volapük-Linglänapük dictionaries on vo Wikibooks, unless there are machine-readable lists somewhere already. I could help with the coding, but it looks like a SMOP ;-). --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 16:31, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Fact or Opinion?

This may be a popular question around here, but I didn't see it posted, nor did the articles on Fact and Opinion help. If this question has been answered before, a link to the answer would be much appreciated.

Fact or Opinion: Michael Jordan is a good basketball player.

Fact or Opinion: Donovan Bailey was a fast runner.

Fact or Opinion: Christian Bale is a good actor.

Fact or Opinion: Swimming is a good way to keep fit.

For all of these, I can definitely see these statements argued as either fact or opinion. Michael Jordan's stats, awards and championships; can they be used as evidence to call him a 'good' basketball player? What if someone had the opinion that in order to be good basketball player, you needed to be able to *insert criterion that MJ does not meet*.

"swimming is a good way to keep fit" - I think it's possible to argue that swimming is a cardiovascular exercise, and thus a good way to keep fit. But on the other hand, the qualifier 'good' really throughs me for a curveball.

Somewhat inane questions, but hopefully someone will be able to answer these. Thanks 67.204.199.165 (talk) 04:01, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd say that they're all opinion. They're all subjective. How fast is fast? Bailey isn't fast compared to, say, a jet. What does it take to make you a "good" actor? All of this, of course, is just my opinion.Paragon12321 (talk) 05:04, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, strictly speaking these are all opinions, although each of them can be backed up with facts as supporting evidence (Jordan's and Bailey's statistics in comparison to other athletes; Bale's awards and positive reviews; studies showing the cardiovascular benefits of swimming, etc.) —Angr 05:44, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

The no true Scotsman fallacy might be related to this. --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 06:55, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Some things are more easily measurable than others. Sports performance would generally be in the former category. Acting would definitely be in the latter. It's one thing to get good reviews and make squillions of dollars, but does that necessarily say much about acting ability? Is Beethoven a "good" composer? Some people are bored to death by his music, but others are transfixed. In matters of personal taste, which is very relevant to the arts generally, the "good/bad" spectrum doesn't seem to have much if any relevance. Far better to make factual statements such as "I like/dislike Christian Bale's movies" or "I like/don't like van Gogh's paintings" than judgmental ones such as "Christian Bale is a good/bad actor" or "Van Gogh is a good/bad painter". -- JackofOz (talk) 08:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

They are definitely opinions. What I would consider a fact would be something like "Donovan Bailey was the fastest runner in the 1988 Texas state 200m competition." because you can check if it was true or not. "95 % of the people surveyed by X on the 15th of Feb 2008 said that they thought that Christian Bale was a good actor" is a fact. Not your example. "A majority of doctors recommend swimming as a good way to keep fit" can be a fact, if you can back it up with a reference. Not "Swimming is a good way to keep fit". Sorry if you think I am far to uptight with the way I require things to be expressed, but I find ambiguous words like "good" only useful when they are used following very careful consideration. --Lgriot (talk) 09:09, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

If the only options to pick from are "fact" or "opinion", then opinion (as everyone notes above) is the correct choice, but I think a more useful term would be "hypothesis". Hypotheses are not truly facts or opinions, but are statements that can be tested and either supported or unsupported by evidence. Because you examples list hypotheses for which there is a lot of good evidence, there is a tendency to think of them as facts, hence your confusion. Matt Deres (talk) 13:39, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd agree with the thrust of that. But some things can't be hypothesised (or if they can, they become the black holes of hypothesis; the light of fact can never escape, so there's no point, really). A hypothesis that "Christian Bale is a good actor" could never be proven, not even if 95% of the world agreed with it. The other 5% might think he's crap, and their opinion (which is all this one can ever be) is no less valid than the others. (Hmm, memo to self: Must write a book called "The Black Holes of Hypothesis". No idea what it'd be about, but it's a great title.) -- JackofOz (talk) 21:47, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I would arrange them, as follows, from least opinionated to most:

Swimming is a good way to keep fit.

Donovan Bailey was a fast runner.

Michael Jordan is a good basketball player.

Christian Bale is a good actor.

The swimming statement only needs a few disclaimers that it might not be heatlhy for some people, such as those who can't swim, but it's quite a provable fact that swimming can improve the health of most people. The running statement is fairly provable, as well. I don't think anyone would interpret this as a comparison of his speed to that of a jet, but rather to other runners. There is the complication that speeds of sprinters and marathon runners are quite different, and measured in different ways, too, so it does need to be stated as to what type of running is under consideration. Being a "good" basketball player is more subjective. That could mean scoring more points, bringing in more fans, setting a good example to children, making lots of money, etc. It's difficult to evaluate the statement factually without knowing what they meant by "good". Being a good actor seems to be completely subjective. StuRat (talk) 14:52, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

"He would later say"

This is a quote from the article Ne me quitte pas, about a song by Jacques Brel.

It is considered by some as "Brel's ultimate classic". He would later say in an interview that the song is not a love song, but rather a song about the cowardice of men.

I find the construction "he would later say in an interview" distracting and annoying, compared to "he said in an interview" or perhaps "he once said in an interview".

Is there any advantage in the longer form? Comments please. Wanderer57 (talk) 16:07, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

One advantage would be to contrast that statement with an earlier statement (like "It was initially thought to be a love song but he would later say in an interview...) but it doesn't do that. FWIW, I find "it is considered by some as" more annoying. Recury (talk) 16:57, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, "It is considered by some" are just weasel words, and the second sentence doesn't really connect or flow from the first one. They could both be rewritten.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 20:14, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

And as is kind of usual with pretty vague sentences like this, there's no citation for it. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 20:21, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Well the "ultimate classic" line is in fact in the article referenced by the footnote. Of course using one article as the basis for the phrase "considered by some" is a bit of a stretch. The second sentence was introduced in this edit, so perhaps only that editor could tell us what he really meant. There might be a place for the construction "he would later say", but it's not in that article at that location. --LarryMac | Talk 20:37, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Negation and the lack thereof in natural languages

Are there any natural languages which don't have words or affixes equivalent to "not", "un-", and others whose purpose is to denote negation? Conversely, are there any natural languages which lack semantically unrelated pairs of opposites(like "good" and "bad"), but have to use Newspeak-like constructions which would literally translate as "ungood" and the like? 207.233.87.226 (talk) 17:23, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

It is probably impossible to give an authorative negative answer to any question of the form "Are there any natural languages which ... ", because even in the unlikely event that somebody is familiar with the feature in question in every described language, there are still large numbers of natural languages which expired with no surviving records. However, I should be surprised to find a language with no means of expressing negation. On the other hand, I should not be greatly surprised to find a language with no such suppletive pairs. --ColinFine (talk) 23:29, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

There is a language (possibly West-African, perhaps Twi but I don't remember well) which forms negation solely by change in tone. Duomillia (talk) 14:26, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

While I can't answer to your question, I can tell you that Korean has a verb for "does exist" and also another verb for "does not exist". You can of course use negation with either of them. --Kjoonlee 16:20, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Cool! Is there is a semantic difference between "not does-exist" and "does-not-exist"? Or between "does-exist" and "not does-not-exist"? —Angr 16:38, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Greenlandic only have words for "being bad" and "being ignorant of" and no words for "be good" or "to know" - in order to express those concepts you must negate the words for "bad" and "be ignorant of"·Maunus·ƛ· 16:48, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I think I'll need to use Korean, or I'll start getting confused.

1. Does-exist 있다
2. Does-not-exist 없다
3. Does-exist NEG 있지 않다
4. Does-not-exist NEG 없지 않다

There's not much difference between 3 and 2. However, you can use 3 to say "it's not there; it's somewhere else."

But if you compare 1 and 4, then it's a bit like comparing "existant" and "not nonexistant." If you say 4, it's like saying that there is something instead of nothing. --Kjoonlee 04:26, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

A bit of a strech: in Chinese (Putonghua), there is no "no" there. One can say "is not," "not have," "not correct," "cannot," "not able," "don't want to" and "not" a lot of things, but a straight "no" is a contraction of one of these phrases. DOR (HK) (talk) 02:01, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

What? Like 不 doesn't mean 'not'? And what about　没? Are you not clear on some sort of concept? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Givnan (talk • contribs) 20:20, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Leo Tolstoy's name

The article on Leo Tolstoy gives his name a number of ways:

Leo Tolstoy, or Count Lev Nikolayevich Tolstoy (September 9 [O.S. August 28] 1828 – November 20 [O.S. November 7] 1910) (‹See Tfd›Russian: Лев Никола́евич Толсто́й, Russian pronunciation: [lʲɛv nʲɪkɐˈlaɪvʲɪtɕ tɐlˈstoj]

I'm sure it's correct, but I've got a few niggling doubts. I have seen his name written as Lyoff, and it seems that Alexandra Tolstaya wrote his name that way when writing English. Now, her spelling makes sense to me: that his name would be Лёв with a yo. Of course that letter can be written with an plain е, but is still pronounced the same. Also, is not the в at the end of his name devoiced? How did Tolstoy write his own name? — Gareth Hughes (talk) 17:27, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

In formal writing, his first name is Лев, with a plain "ye". Лёв, with a "yo", seems to be a diminutive; Russian Wiktionary provides more diminutive forms: Лёвка, Лёвушка. Russians love diminutives and it seems natural that Alexandra would use one when writing about her father. — Kpalion^(talk) 18:18, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

And yes, final consonants are normally devoiced in Russian, so -ов and -ев endings are usually pronounced with final /-f/; but though spellings in '-off' are not uncommon for English names of Russian origin, they are not usual when transliterating Russian names into English. --ColinFine (talk) 23:32, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Although Лев would, in isolation, normally exhibit devoicing of the /v/ to [f], it's transcribed as voiced because the following word begins with a voiced sound. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 03:38, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Is that right? I'd have thought that, when it comes to transliteration, words are considered in isolation. More than that, individual letters are considered in isolation. Which is why the way a word is transliterated is not guaranteed to represent the way it's pronounced. Take genitive adjectives ending in -ого (eg. русского), for example. They're transliterated letter for letter as -ogo (russkogo), but pronounced more like -ava (rooskava). I think this is closer to the reason why Л-е-в is transliterated L-e-v and not the way it's pronounced, L-ye-ff. Sergei Rachmaninoff had the right idea, though, when he came to the West. He chucked the transliteration rules out the window and chose a spelling that more accurately reflected how his name was actually pronounced, at least as far as the ending went. -- JackofOz (talk) 14:32, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I think Aeusoes is talking about the phonetic transcription [lʲɛv nʲɪkɐˈlaɪvʲɪtɕ tɐlˈstoj], not the transliteration Lev Nikolayevich Tolstoy. —Angr 14:50, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, all, for helping me with these niggling questions. It's good to know that the article is right, and why it's right. As I now understand it, the final consonant of Tolstoy's first name would be devoiced if his patronym were omitted: Russian pronunciation: [lʲɛf tɐlˈstoj]. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 15:04, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Spanish wrestling name translation

I took spanish in highschool, but I don't remember very much of it. My Mexican aunt knows I can't speak it very well, so i always try to come up with some weird phrase just to make her laugh. I've been using this one for years to make my army buddies laugh, but I've never used it around her since I don't get to see her very much. Please tell me if this sentence seems grammatically correct to the Spanish speakers out there: "¡Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor!"

Should it just be "luchador" or should it be "luchador libre"? I have a family reunion coming up and I want to get it printed on a t-shirt along with a luchador libre mask just for the hell of it. I'm sure she will get a kick out of it. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 17:29, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm thinking it would be 'mi nombre de luchar... or something like that. Definitely not luchador nombre, since luchador is not an adjective. Corvus cornix_talk 19:58, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I would say:

(If you're a guy): "¡Mi nombre de luchador es Amolador de la Carne y traigo el dolor!"

(If you're a girl): "¡Mi nombre de luchadora es Amoladora de la Carne y traigo el dolor!"

My capitalization isn't that important, though, if you plan to put it on a t-shirt. I haven't heard a Spanish speaker use amolar to refer to grinding meat, but its use as such could grab a more humorous effect, so it's okay.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 20:06, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm a guy, so it's luchador. From what I understand (and I could be wrong), amolador de la carne means "meat grinder". Thanks for the help! --Ghostexorcist (talk) 20:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

According to a quick search (including a link to the Spanish Wikipedia), meat grinder is picadora.Baranxtu (talk) 09:37, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

What does "fraternities" mean outside of the U.S.?

Currently the term "fraternities" redirects to Fraternity, which is sort of a disambiguation page, but mostly just a poorly written mess.

Everyone in the United States knows that fraternities refers to a type of student organization. But does the term--NOT the singular term "fraternity," but specifically the plural form--have any other connotations outside of the U.S.? In other words, would an Englishman say "The Masons and the Oddfellows are two different fraternities" or would he just say they are two different "societies" or "fraternal organizations"? Bear in mind that I'm not asking if it is possible to use "fraternities" in some other sense than clubs for college boys--I am merely asking if it is commonly used as such.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 19:13, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't think it is. I would understand it if used, but I don't think I would use it in that sense. (UK English) --ColinFine (talk) 23:37, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I've heard it used in a religious context, such as organisations like Oblates but not for masons etc.hotclaws 01:37, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

When to write HUMID and when to use MOIST ?

I'm confused over when to use which word..

I know the word Humid can be used when describing air that is HOT and DAMP, but in my text here, it is not hot.. it is more of a typical fall/autumn weather, chilly and wet.. is MOIST the right word to use?

"The morning broke foggy, but the fog cleared up not long after daybreak on what was a chilly, bleak morning. The air was MOIST and the ground slightly muddy after a bit of rain had fallen during the night."

if not moist, then what word is the better? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.164.179.83 (talk) 19:30, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't use moist to describe air--it's generally used to describe solid and semi-solid substances. I think "damp" or "misty" might be more appropriate.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 19:33, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

thanks! :) damp doesnt feel right, but misty is just what i needed :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.164.179.83 (talk) 19:43, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Glad I could help. "Clammy" is yet another option. now who will answer my question???--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 22:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikify edit here: dear poster, suggest keep to normal par breaks to avoid scroll-hogging, thanks : ) Julia Rossi (talk) 01:58, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

My wife was very often moist, sometimes clammy, and the odd time damp, but never humid. That should give you some idea of how to use the words.ChokinBako (talk) 20:38, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Lovely images there, Givnan. With weather, we say "the air is moist" but "the weather is humid" or "it's a humid day today", but not "it's a moist day today". -- JackofOz (talk) 00:26, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Mac /Mc

Can anyone please explain why some Scottish names are prefixed as above; why some are Mac and others Mc.

Many thanks--Artjo (talk) 19:51, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

see if Family_name#Scotland_and_Ireland answers your question. Corvus cornix_talk 20:00, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I cant promise you my asnwer is a correct one but I believe MAC is more commonly used in MODERN day in countries such as for example the USA. While MC came to use in days of old in scottland when people there lived in clans. I believe it meant "son of" so if your last name was Mcgregor, it meant you were the son of Gregor. Just like the use of O' in Ireland, such as O'Brien. So MAC has probably come in modern time and doesnt have any special meaning..

As I said i don't know for sure, but hopefully my answer helps a little.. But I do know for a fact that MAC is more common in USA (and possibly other english talking countries too) while MC is more seen in Scottland

Krikkert7 (talk) 20:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

If you don't have any real idea what you're talking about, it's probably more helpful not to post anything than to write misleading and inaccurate conjecture. Malcolm XIV (talk) 18:47, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Mc and Mac are used in both Scotland and Ireland (land of the micks as my grandfather might have said in a less politically correct time). See Family_name#Scotland_and_Ireland - in some cases the spelling difference may have indicated a male or a female but often it is just difference in the translation for/by the English speakers. Rmhermen (talk) 20:36, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

More likely just spelling variations. "Mac" in Scottish Gaelic means "son." Tha mac agus nighean againn -- "We have a son and a daughter." M'c and M' were common abbreviations according to Ewan J. Innes. The further back you went, the likelier records would be in Gaelic (e.g., Macdonald as Mac Domhnaill; I've never seen the claim that Mc is "old" and "Mac" more modern. For what it's worth, all my grandparents spoke Scottish Gaelic. OtherDave (talk) 20:53, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I didn't mean to imply that Mc was older. I was just trying to indicating that Mc is not only Scottish but is so common in Ireland that it was used as a term for Irishman. Rmhermen (talk) 21:03, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually Mc is far more common in the U.S. In the 1990 census data, 143 of the top 5000 names use Mc while only about 10 use Mac. And 25 McNames are each more common than the most common MacName. Oddly McDonald (117 most common name in the U.S.) is the most common Mc name while MacDonald is the most common Mac (but only the 821 most common name). Rmhermen (talk) 21:00, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

In some cases, either Mc or Mac is a relatively recent re-spelling of how a person's name was actually spelled during their lifetime. A case in point is John Macarthur, the English-born (to Scottish parents) Australian wool pioneer. Despite a lousy personal reputation, he became super-iconic (he made it onto our currency for a long time) and he's been known by the "Macarthur" spelling for over 175 years. But he spelled his own name "M'Arthur" for most of his life (whether he pronounced it “Martha” or some other way, I couldn’t say). He occasionally varied it to “MacArthur”. The spelling “Macarthur” (with a lower case "a") became established only very late in his life. Most sources (including our article and its links) make no mention of this (I've now done something about that), but here are a couple: [3], [4] -- JackofOz (talk) 00:02, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

The variant Mak is also sometimes encountered, such as Sir Thomas Makdougall Brisbane, who also married a woman named Makdougall. -- JackofOz (talk) 03:04, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for all that guys!--Artjo (talk) 06:21, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, sometimes this is shortened to 'mic' (possibly the origin of the word 'Mick' meaning an Irishman), and in the Isle Of Man it is shortened even further to just 'k', which is why so many people in the Isle Of Man have names beginning with 'K'.ChokinBako (talk) 20:35, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

German question

In the question "Was kaufen Sie ein?", what does the "ein" mean or what purpose does it serve? Couldn't you just say "Was kaufen Sie?"? Dismas|^(talk) 23:19, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

"einkaufen" is specifically shopping rather than any other type of purchase, so my guess is that it's a specifier, but my German is pretty rusty. --Rodhullandemu 23:28, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Einkaufen is a separable-prefix verb—whenever it is the main verb of a clause, ein is taken off and put at the end. In this particular case, einkaufen is mostly synonymous with kaufen (so you could leave off the ein), but in other cases the meanings are different: Wer brachte die Hühner? (with bringen) "Who brought the chickens?" but Wer brachte die Hühner um? (with umbringen) "Who killed the chickens?". Strad (talk) 23:33, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

"Einkaufen" refers primarily to shopping for the daily necessities - foodstuffs, toilet rolls and the like. You would not use it when purchasing a pair of trousers, a new TFT monitor or a book.

It is a bit like "go" and "go out". In either case you are going somewhere, but you would use "go out" solely in the context of entertainment. You wont be "going out" to the dentist (unless you are a masochist). --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 06:55, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! That answers the wonderings I've been having about "zu" in sentences using the verb "horen"... Thanks again, Dismas|^(talk) 21:47, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Madarin "一"

Is it true that "一" is pronounced with different tones depending on the tone of the word following it? If so what rules are there? And how important is it to do so? --212.120.246.239 (talk) 23:53, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes. In general, it would change from first to second tone when followed by a fourth tone character. This is very important for 1st year Chinese exams. DOR (HK) (talk) 00:00, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

That's it DOR. It also applies to 不， 七 and 八, for which it is occasionally called 'yibuqiba tone sandhi' (一不七八变调). That means that 一条 has the pinyin yítiào, not yītiào, and 不对 is búduì, not būduì. Steewi (talk) 01:45, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

一条 is pronounced as yītiáo, not yítiào. I suspect you may be thinking of 一跳 (yítiào), as in 吓一跳. --Bowlhover (talk) 09:01, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

You're right. I mussed up. Thanks for the correction. Steewi (talk) 00:30, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

More info - Speakers of Chinese don't necessarily know that they are making the change. They are taught in school about it, but won't always remember; it's just something they do. Note also that the yibuqiba sandhi is primarily a characteristic of Standard Chinese (i.e. Putonghua) and Beijinghua, and might not be used by speakers of non-standard varieties of Beifanghua. It's important to know for exams and to know of its existence, but in speaking to Chinese people, they're not likely to notice whether you do it or not. Steewi (talk) 01:48, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I've never heard it with 七 and 八, but everything else listed is pretty much universal from my experiences. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 06:58, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

August 1

IPA transcriptions

how do you spell both

Guerneville (pronounce like Verne if the V were a G and Ville and in Jill) and Ceoli see (the way the letter is pronounced) o lay in the International Phonetic Alphabet. this is for improvements i am making to the Guerneville, California article.^MY♥_INchile 02:25, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Using the system at Help:IPA for English, Guernville is /ˈɡɜrnvɪl/ (write {{IPA-en|ˈɡɜrnvɪl}} in the article). "see-o-lay" is /siːoʊleɪ/, but I can't tell from your transcription where the stress is supposed to be. —Angr 05:02, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

1gurn2vil 1see2oh3lay, that's them broken up by syllable.^MY♥_INchile 16:24, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I've always heard it "gurneyvill". Is the CoC trying to go upmarket? Is it on it's way to becoming"gehrnvee"? Saintrain (talk) 22:09, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Its definetely not guerneyvill or gurnvee i have never heard that, the only mispronunciation i have ever heard is guern-nuh-vill, some people pronounce it with 3 syllables but this is incorrect and a way to identify outsiders of the community.^MY♥_INchile 23:46, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Summer Olympics

If my understanding is correct, when the Northern Hemisphere experiences summer, the Southern Hemisphere experiences winter ... and vice versa. So, the four seasons are always "opposite" as between the two hemispheres. Is my understanding correct? If so ... why are the upcoming Olympics referred to as the Summer Olympics? Since the event is clearly international and clearly global in scope ... and we live in such politically correct times ... isn't the term Summer Olympics (and the later Winter Olympics, for that matter) biased in favor of the Northern Hemisphere and biased against the Southern Hemisphere? Isn't the naming incorrect and inappropriate, at least for half the planet? Or am I missing something here? Do people in the Southern Hemisphere refer to these upcoming Olympics as the Summer Olympics, even though it occurs in their winter? Or do people in the Southern Hemisphere refer to these upcoming Olympics as their Winter Olympics? For consistency in official books and record books, etc., I can't imagine that the titles are interchangeable since that would lead to a lack of uniformity and much confusion. How exactly is this handled? And why would such a global / international committee (those who oversee the Olympics) perpetuate such a poor and biased misnomer? And has no one in the Southern Hemisphere complained in all these 100+ years? Any thoughts? Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:08, 1 August 2008 (UTC))

The names "Winter Olympics" and "Summer Olympics" do not necessarily refer to the season they are held in but to the different types of sports. The Summer Olympics traditionally feature summer sports like running, sailing, etc, while the Winter Olympics feature winter sports like skiing, skating etc. The 1956 Summer Olympics, being held in Australia, took place from November to December but were still called "Summer Olympics". (I don't think the Winter Olympics have ever been held in the Southern hemisphere, but presumably they would be held in July or August and still be called Winter Olympics). -- Ferkelparade π 16:06, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

The 1956 Summer Olympics were held in summer, November and December ARE summer in Australia, the seasons are opposite the northern hemisphere, June and July are winter there while they are summer up here. The names of the winter/summer olympics are actually just northemocentric.^MY♥_INchile 16:22, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Apparently the summer games have taken place in the southern hemisphere only twice: Melbourne 1956 (and the equestrian events were in Sweden -- too far to fly the horses?), and Sydney 2000. (The Sydney games were held in September, which technically isn't summer in either north or south.) The winter games have always been in the northern hemisphere. (Nobody asked; I was just curious.) OtherDave (talk) 16:37, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Re Sydney: If I recall correctly, the equestrian events for the 1956 Olympics were held in Sweden because of strict quarantine requirements. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 17:16, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

If the 1958 summer olympics were held in Australia when it was summer in Australia AND were called the Summer Olympics, then I don't think it is correct to say the naming of the olympics is northernocentric. What is northernocentric is the idea that November and December are in the winter. Wanderer57 (talk) 17:29, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

As others have noted, it's not when it is held, but what type of events. As I understand it, by regulation all sports in the the Winter Olympics need to have something to do with snow or ice. All other events are saved of the Summer Olympics. While needing snow and ice limits the Winter Olympics to climactic winter (in non-tropical countries, I might add), nothing limits the Summer Olympics to taking place during climactic summer, except the difficulties of holding outdoor track and field events when there is snow covering the ground. -- 128.104.112.147 (talk) 17:50, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

_{I would hate to experience a climactic winter. I'd probably end up with blue balls. Matt Deres (talk) 18:58, 1 August 2008 (UTC)}

Melbourne 1956 (not 1958): They started in November (which was spring here and fall/autumn in the NH) and ended in December (which was summer here and winter in the NH).

Sydney 2000: They were held in September-October, which was spring here and fall/autumn in the NH.

That's according to the official start of the seasons in Australia - 1st of December, March, June, September, for summer, autumn, winter and spring respectively; they may differ in other countries-- JackofOz (talk) 21:29, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

The most important thing is that the weather be appropriate for the given type of sports. So, you need reasonably warm weather for running, swimming, etc., and cold weather for skiing, skating, etc. In the temperate zones in both the Northern and Southern hemispheres, that depends on whether it is summer or winter at that location. However, in the tropics it's always warm, so you could never have a "Winter Olympics there" (unless at high elevations or indoors with snow and ice-making machines). Conversely, in the arctic and antarctic regions, it's always cold, so you could have Winter Olympics year round. You might actually want to have them when it's warmest there, as the low temps and few hours of daylight would be a problem in actual winter. StuRat (talk) 14:35, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks very much to all for the input above ... it was very helpful and informative! So, the games are essentially named for the type of sport, not the season in which held (per Ferkelparade, and others). The "requirement" of having appropriate weather conditions (per StuRat and User 128.104) to actually stage the appropriate events makes sense. Thanks again to all. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 14:40, 2 August 2008 (UTC))

Free dual language Spanish-English books

There are lots of books with English and Spanish translations of short stories on facing pages. I have found these useful for improving vocabulary and reading fluency, since the exact usage of a word or the exact meaning of an idiom are learned without slogging through numerous dictionary definitions, which tends t derail the reading process. I have not been able to find any at all available free online. I would expect that some kind person might have done the translating of public domain classics or of their own works. A Google search only turned up Spanish-English books with "free" shipping for high prices. Does anyone know of any such resources free online? Thanks. Edison (talk) 22:37, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

You can go to Biblos.com: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages and open different versions in different languages in different windows. -- Wavelength (talk) 04:37, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

That's one classic. Anything else ?Edison (talk) 12:37, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

One workaround you can try: see what's available at Spanish Gutenberg for Spanish-language classics, then search for English-language translations at English Gutenberg or the Online Books Page. You'll get at least Don Quixote this way. (Spanish literature might help narrow the search.) Cheers, WikiJedits (talk) 14:37, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

P.S. some other possibilities: (1) Children's songs in Spanish with English translations. (2) Government brochures that are available in more than one language. Here's one about Toronto. Or these about health. Probably you can find some from various U.S. governments as well. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 14:47, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

From my Google search for "multilingual websites" the tenth result (of 212,000) is Tips for Translators: Multilingual Websites with Parallel Texts, which has a categorized list of multilingual websites. -- Wavelength (talk) 16:20, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

[Correction: "Multilingual websites" --> "multilingual websites"] -- Wavelength (talk) 16:27, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

You might want to use VoyCabulary.com - Online web dictionary & thesaurus word linking lookup reference tool. -- Wavelength (talk) 16:30, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

The United Nations website (http://www.un.org/) has the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html) in 335 languages: UDHR: Alphabetical Listing of All Translations at http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/navigate/alpha.htm. -- Wavelength (talk) 19:03, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

The End of False Religion Is Near! - Jehovah's Witnesses Official Web Site is available in 314 languages. -- Wavelength (talk) 19:11, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

You might be able to benefit from Language Tools. -- Wavelength (talk) 19:17, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

You might want to investigate Welcome to the UN. It's your world. and United Nations Radio: to see how much you can find in parallel texts. -- Wavelength (talk) 19:52, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

You might be interested in BBC World Service | Languages and VOA News - Voice of America Homepage - News in 45 Languages. -- Wavelength (talk) 19:59, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikibooks is multilingual. Maybe you can find equivalent texts in English and Spanish. -- Wavelength (talk) 20:05, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Many good suggestions, thanks. Edison (talk) 18:02, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

August 2

Barbara Walters's accent

What is Barbara Walters's accent? Please identify it as specifically as possible. —Lowellian (reply) 00:04, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Her accent results from the speech impediment rhotacism. It's mostly corrected now, but you can definitely hear it on her television appearances from decades ago. Strad (talk) 01:34, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay, but a speech impediment is not a regional accent, and she still has a distinctive way of speaking even today. So more information please? —Lowellian (reply) 04:45, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I think that her accent can be considered an example of Locust Valley lockjaw. Marco polo (talk) 15:42, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

So the thing is, I've heard people a lot of people say that she has a Northeastern/New England accent. Others are more specific and claim that she has a Boston accent. I've heard other people be even more specific and state that she has a Boston Brahmin accent. I've heard other people say that is entirely incorrect and claim instead that she has a New York accent. Others state that it is not just a New York accent, but a Jewish New York accent. And others have claimed that it is a Transatlantic accent. So thus far, I've encountered the following claims:

• Rhotacism
• Locust Valley lockjaw
• Northeastern/New England accent
• Boston accent
• Boston Brahmin accent
• New York accent
• Jewish New York accent
• Transatlantic accent

Clearly all these claims can't all be right, and I don't know whose statement to trust over anyone anyone else's. Why is her accent so hard to pin down? Maybe someone can give examples of her speech to back up their assertions that she has such-and-such an accent?

—Lowellian (reply) 16:35, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Her accent is hard to pin down because few people know how to recognize the subtle differences between the old elite accents of New York and those of Boston. The New York variety, with a dash of RP thrown in, was the basis for the Transatlantic accent of 1930s Hollywood. I will admit that I had a grandmother with something akin to Locust Valley lockjaw. I grew up in the New York area but have lived most of my adult life in the Boston area, bastion of the Kerrys, Kennedys, and Boston Brahmins. (I'm not one of them.) To my ears—and I am keenly aware of the differences, mainly in vowels—Barbara Walters's accent is clearly a New York rather than a Boston accent. Unfortunately, I can't point you to any recordings or linguistic analyses of her speech. Marco polo (talk) 19:10, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Professor Higgins, your advice would be appreciated. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:51, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think we'll improve much on Marco's answer, which rings true. It seems very likely that like many (if not most) people now, Barbara Walters has a mixture of accents in her voice. Xn4 (talk) 01:09, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Vocabulary

What does “polyoxylated” mean: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polysorbate_80?

What does “crisis health worker” mean: http://www.nationalpost.com/most_popular/story.html?id=692762?68.148.164.166 (talk) 02:53, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

For "polyoxylation", it's a chemistry term, so you would be more likely to get a meaningful answer asking at the Science Reference Desk than here. I suggest you go ask that question again over there.

—Lowellian (reply) 08:21, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

In this case it means has had many ethylene oxide groups reacted and attatched to it eg the parts in the structure that are -(C₂H₄-O)_n-

87.102.86.73 (talk) 12:45, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

See Ethoxylation - 'polyethoxylated' would be a clearer term.87.102.86.73 (talk) 12:46, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Based on context, by "crisis health worker", that news article presumably meant a mental health worker/professional called in to deal with psychological trauma from an unexpected, sudden, violent, life-threatening situation. This is not common usage, and the news article could have been better written and used a more specific, less confusing term. —Lowellian (reply) 08:21, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Sports articles or Sport articles

Hi, I have working on Wikipedia:WikiProject Sports and created some categories with name like Category:Unassessed sports articles, but I think that this is incorrect and should be sport articles. Can someone confirm? Cheers. Carlosguitar ^{(Yes Executor?)} 15:02, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

According to the definitions at Wiktionary and Dictionary.com, sport, when used as an adjective, is synonymous with sports. If you're interested in usage, "sport shoes" returns about 3 million google results while "sports shoes" returns about 4.2 million. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 16:41, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

This just depends on where you live. In North America, newspapers have a sports sections and the project is about sports articles. In Britain, newspapers have a sport section and the project is about sport articles. In articles that don't relate to specific countries, Wikipedia policy allows for either type of English, and whoever gets there first gets to decide. So there should not be a change. --Anonymous, 18:52 UTC, August 2, 2008.

Thank you guys, so I will leave how is it. Carlosguitar ^{(Yes Executor?)} 20:56, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Is this like “math” and “maths? – b_jonas 12:27, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Not really, because in that case both forms are singular. --Anon, 18:24 UTC, August 5.

...but in referring to the school subject "mathematics," the word "math" is US usage and "maths" is UK. -- Deborahjay (talk) 06:13, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

What is origin of web dialect Examples Puppehs (puppies) Haz (have/has) Teh (the)

I see this often in pet websites, but not exclusively (example "teh gayz"). What/where/when/who is the origin? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ondine Breck (talk • contribs) 18:13, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

It's probably leet, as spoken by lolcats. 128.148.38.26 (talk) 18:22, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Some words, such as "teh" and "pwned", probably originated as typos. --Bowlhover (talk) 21:01, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, this is definitely lolcatz. —Lowellian (reply) 21:05, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

In case you miss the internal link there, teh has a page of its own. -- Deborahjay (talk) 05:07, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Abstract nouns

Is there any way of deciding whether a noun is "abstract" or not? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.164.115 (talk) 23:37, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

This might not work in absolutely every case, but the general rule of thumb is that if it isn't a physical object (book, woman, apple, tree) or doesn't represent such an object (paper, queen, fruit, wood), then it's abstract. Words like beauty, anger, and indifference are not objects that can be seen or touched, so they're abstract. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:33, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

In other words, here "abstract" = "intangible". StuRat (talk) 01:59, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

That's right. 'Abstract noun' is closely related to the philosophers' word abstracta - see abstract object. Xn4 (talk) 00:50, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

There are some where it is difficult to say: Humanity, the North Pole, Journey's end and so on. Others can be concrete or abstract depending on context; Calendar (the Gregorian calendar vs my desk Calendar), office (the one I am in vs the office of president), etc. -- Q Chris (talk) 12:52, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. Whether something is abstract or complete can depend on the listener as well. My example (that I keep repeating again and again) is when on a functional analysis course the professor said something like “Let's examine a concrete example. Let A be a self-adjoint operator.” We laughed because we, as second-year students, didn't feel like that was a concrete example. However, the professor said “concrete” completely seriously, and someone familiar enough with functional analysis like a graduated physicist would certainly have agreed about “concrete”. – b_jonas 12:25, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

August 3

Hoofed biped

I am almost positive there is a word meaning "bipedal, but having hooves", as in a satyr or various depictions of demons, but I don't recall that word. Any help would be appreciated. - Glass Star (talk) 03:57, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Capripede - It's a noun with the definition given as simply satyr (capri - goat-like + pede)

Satyrical - having satyr-like characteristics, but more often used to describe lascivious behavior

unguligrade - Walking on hooves, but not necessarily bipedal —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.77.4.75 (talk) 04:47, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

sentence construction

what comes under sentence construction —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.83.164.159 (talk) 10:49, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

whaddya mean? -- 84.160.19.40 (talk) 12:05, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Sentence (linguistics) comes under that topic. Was there something specific you wanted to know about grammar?87.102.5.5 (talk) 13:12, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Phrase construction? DOR (HK) (talk) 02:07, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Your question, if by "sentence construction" you refer to the title saying just that. – b_jonas 12:15, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Where does "broheem" come from?

I just rewatched the fantastic movie A History of Violence, and I had a language related question about it (stop reading if you don't want to get spoiled)

In the end, Joey/Tom Stall (played by Viggo Mortensen) show up in Philadelphia to meet his brother, Richie (played by William Hurt), to have a final confrontation. Richie refers to Joey as "broheem" (or maybe "brohim"), which obviously means "brother". Where does this word come from? Is it Yiddish or Polish or something? 83.188.196.191 (talk) 12:43, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Without benefit of having seen the film or knowing the plot or characters, I can say this about the word if it's used in greeting and not isolated but as part of a phrase: "BRU-kheem ha-BO-eem" (Yiddish, from the Hebrew ברוכים הבאים pronounced "bru-KHEEM ha-ba-EEM"), is a standard phrase of salutation upon receiving guests (i.e. not said by the new arrival), literally meaning "blessings upon those [m.pl.] who come those [m.pl.] who come are blessed." Does that fit? -- Deborahjay (talk) 20:14, 3 August 2008 (UTC) (corrected translation 06:07, 4 August 2008 (UTC))

I'd always assumed it started out as brougham, as in Cadillac Brougham. This made it a rather fancy way to say "bro". StuRat (talk) 23:08, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Use of "to be"

Which is the proper form:

1. "There are only one or two apples"
2. "There is only one or two apples"

The first sounds most correct to me. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 17:07, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

The first one. One and two are merely adjectives, and have no effect on the conjugation of the verb. The bottom line is the subject is apples, which is a plural noun that requires are.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 19:24, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

There seems to be a growing tendency to use there's in all situations, even those that there are would be grammatically consistent (even correct in some circles) and certainly more acceptable to prescriptivists. It's similar to Spanish, which has a rich verbal morphology but hay is used for "there is/are" no matter the number. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 09:40, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

In Spanish, that's because the noun that follows hay is strictly speaking its direct object (as in German with the es gibt construction). In English, I suspect phonotactics is playing a role in the use of there's with a plural noun. The desire to use a contraction is strong, but there're doesn't really have a convenient monosyllabic pronunciation that is distinct from there in either rhotic or non-rhotic accents. —Angr 16:47, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I was thinking the same thing about there're but I'm not sure I understand what you mean about hay and direct objects.

• Hay dos manzanas ('there are two apples')
• Hay una manzana ('there is an apple')

How does manzana being a direct object lead to hay being undeclined/undifferentiated for number? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 21:15, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, since when do verbs agree with their direct objects in Indo-European languages? There's no difference in the verb between Voy Veo dos manzanas ("I see two apples") and Voy Veo una manzana ("I see one apple") either. —Angr 05:07, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Small correction: Angr meant to write Veo ("see") instead of Voy ("go")--El aprendelenguas (talk) 18:53, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, of course he did. Oops. —Angr 19:21, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I think I get what you're saying. Hay is equivalent to "there is/are" only because the usage and general meaning is the same but it's more like "there is the presence of..." so that what follows is actually a direct object. I guess that means that, in "there's an apple", apple is the subject. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 20:24, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

While there's is more often being attached to both singular and plural objects, the same phenomenon hasn't happened with the unabbreviated versions. "There is" and "there are" both still have their place, and their objects are singular and plural respectively. But I suppose a person who has no issue with "there's thousands of books on sale here today" wouldn't bat an eyelid at "There is only one or two apples". Some forms of logic would suggest that because the first part of the object is "one", a singular verb must apply. Grammarians have their own special logic and they'd argue for the plural because the object is not the singular "one", but the plural "one or two apples". -- JackofOz (talk) 17:01, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

August 4

More German questions

Resolved

1. What's the difference between "ihm" and "er"?
2. Can someone give me a better explanation of the word "gern" than Babelfish? Babelfish translates it as "gladly" but that just doesn't seem to fit the context exactly that I see "gern" used in. I thought it meant "enjoy" at first but that concept doesn't seem to always fit either.

Thanks, Dismas|^(talk) 02:05, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

(1) "Ihm" is dative case, "er" is nominative case. (2) "Gern" is an adverb that can indeed be translated literally as "gladly", but that translation isn't always the most idiomatic. Often the best way to translate "gern" is to say "like to" + the verb of the sentence. For example "Ich esse Käse gern", literally "I eat cheese gladly" = "I like to eat cheese"; "Ich schwimme gern", lit. "I swim gladly" = "I like to swim". If the verb is "haben", then "gern haben" is just "like": "Ich hab dich gern" = "I like you". —Angr 05:25, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Dismas|^(talk) 09:56, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

'Gestalt' as a verb in English

So I was reading Frank Herbert's Dune, and he uses 'gestalt' as a verb quite a few times. I know the German means 'shape' or 'form', and although I looked it up on this wiki I don't understand how it could be used in English. The example I remember is 'he gestalted the room'. Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 05:10, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Having skimmed through Gestalt psychology, Gestalt therapy, and wikt:gestalt, I'm coming up empty. It's easy enough to "verb nouns"; I could imaging that "to gestalt a patient" would mean to treat him using gestalt therapy, but I have no idea how you would gestalt a room. Maybe it could mean something like to arrange the furniture in such a way as to focus on the holistic effect of the entire room? (Don't ask me how to do that, though!) Or maybe it means to walk into a room and get a general impression of the entire room at once rather than focusing on one person or object in the room? I'm really just guessing, of course. Knowing the context in which Herbert wrote "He gestalted the room" would help. —Angr 16:42, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

My OED defines Gestalt as An organised whole that is perceived as more than the sum of its parts. If two rooms were divided buy a partition wall, perhaps you could remove the partition and gestalt a bigger room. - X201 (talk) 17:41, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe he meant that he perceived or understood the room in its entirety, rather than its individual components, like grok. Clarityfiend (talk) 17:32, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't remember that line, and I'd have thought I would've. Would you mind satisfying my curiosity by telling us when it occurs? Algebraist 23:36, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I've never come across gestalt used as a verb in English (till now, I mean). However, I've heard it in academic contexts as a rough equivalent for "the totality." (Business people like to use "synergy" for something similar, usually trying to convince themselves they can lay off people and still produce at least as much work.) I've also seen a bumper sticker: What part of gestalt don't you understand? OtherDave (talk) 01:38, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Translation from English into Gaelic

Can you translate a few common greetings into Gaelic? Such as;

• Good morning
• Hello
• Goodbye
• Welcome
• Thank you
• God speed.

This is my first ever request and I don't know what I'm doing, so any suggestions you can offer will be deeply appreciated.
Thanks and Sincerely, Mike Day of Delano —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.33.107.12 (talk) 05:57, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Have you tried Googling 'how to learn Gaelic'? A site like that would have the majority of common phrases. Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 06:16, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Which Gaelic are you interested in, Irish Gaelic or Scottish Gaelic? —Angr 06:28, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Or even Manx Gaelic -- Q Chris (talk) 12:39, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

One Scottish Gaelic site, with links. OtherDave (talk) 01:41, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Term of endearment?

What is the origin of the endearment 'chuck' frequently heard around Manchester? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.204.221 (talk) 12:29, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

You might find the answer at BBC - Manchester - Voices - The local lingo. -- Wavelength (talk) 15:21, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

The Commonest Words in the English Language

Has anyone compiled a list please of, say, the commonest thousand words in use? I was thinking of Pitman shorthand 'busy six hundred' but have tried in vain to find a copy of it. I am aware of the Oxford English corpus top 100 words but was hoping for something larger. Excuse me if this is clearly included on Wikipedia - I have hunted in vain. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.70.221.196 (talk) 13:05, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

You might be interested in the frequency lists at Wiktionary. —Angr 13:24, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Please see Most common words in English. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:56, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

My Google search for "most common english words" resulted in a list of useful links to lists of various lengths. -- Wavelength (talk) 15:11, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I think this is the site you want. DAVID ŠENEK 17:40, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Shame about the interface, though. If there's a documented way to download the word list I didn't see it, but here's an undocumented way: first 301, next 301, next 301, etc. Another source which came to mind was Google's n-gram data from a huge corpus of web pages. Their unigram frequencies are surprisingly different from wordcount.org's: I, and, the, you, a, to, uh, that, it, of, know, yeah, in, they, uhhuh, have, but, so, it's, we, ... -- BenRG (talk) 00:09, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

About.com has a list 1000 Most Common Words in English Omahapubliclibrary (talk) 17:00, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Hash symbol as number

Is is correct to use a hash symbol for a number, as in "His hit single reached #1 on the pop charts"? I was told that WP:MOS does not allow it. However, I cannot find the reference. Thanks, —Mattisse (Talk) 13:39, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Please see Number sign. -- Wavelength (talk) 15:01, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

The trouble is that this article does not pertain to the WP:MOS. There is currently a conflict in a FAC nomination over whether # versus number is correct according to WP:MOSNUM. (I was trying to avoid the confusion (and usually lack of response) of trying to find out from the FAC people. —Mattisse (Talk) 15:44, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

The reference desk isn't really the place to be asking questions about Wikipedia policy and style anyway. In the real world, yes, # is a symbol that stands for "number", as discussed in the article Number sign. Whether using it that way is acceptable at Wikipedia is a question for a different page, such as WT:MOSNUM. —Angr 16:34, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

O.K. Thanks. I was trying to avoid asking the MoS people. Guess I will drop it. Thanks for your help. —Mattisse (Talk) 16:55, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Dutch Scrabble?

Hey i just wanted to know if theres a place i can get a list of all dutch words that would be acceptable for scrabble, ex: no proper nouns or any of that.

I found a long time ago some site that had links to different pages, each containing a space seperated list of all 3,4,5 etc letter words in english, for 2-10 letter words.

Its a little bit more difficult to find dutch for the following reasons:

1. I dont understand Dutch at ALL. 2. I spoke to a friend who is native and he said it would probably be difficult to find, as english is easy only because of its use around the world.

I don't need to understand the words, all i need is a list where there is separation between words so i can tell and be able to put it into my text editor and all that. Can anyone be of help? Thanks. :)

209.240.240.96 (talk) 16:03, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

This is a site that lists all Dutch words, but it has nothing to do with scrabble. DAVID ŠENEK 17:34, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

At first glance a seemingly helpful find. however, i think their database is messed up?

http://woordenlijst.org/voorvoegsel/b/2 here you can see a list of words under the letter B? it says "21 - 40 uit 7984" at the top, which of course i assume to mean 21-40 of 7984.... so thats 20 words right? but theres only one on there. "baan·tje·rij·den, ww."

any more help? thx <3 209.240.240.178 (talk) 01:16, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that seems to be a bug. I don't see a way to get a full list of words there. DAVID ŠENEK 15:13, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

yayyyyy! i found one that works!

http://www.sil.org/americas/suriname/Rediman/National/RedimanNLDict.html

According to a dutch mate of mine, this list does have proper nouns, such as names of countries, so basically i need to grab a friend who would be kind enough to sort those out for me, but at least i have the list finally! I just thought it would be fun to make dutch boggle since i programmed an english boggle for irc and all the non native english people claim an unfair ballpark hehe ;D Thank you for your efforts David. It just took a while of searching i guess. cant remember how i bumped into this site but yeah problem solved! thanks again!

209.240.240.171 (talk) 03:14, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

IPA symbol - Portuguese

Hello. How can I produce the IPA symbol "w", with a tilde on it? That symbol is used all the time when accurately transcribing the Portuguese nasal diphthong "ão", and I need it to fix quite a few IPA transcriptions all over Wikipedia. Thanks. Húsönd 19:28, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Same for "j" with a tilde. Húsönd 19:34, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure you don't mean turned m — "ɯ" (close back unrounded vowel) with a tilde? --Cam (talk) 20:13, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Nope, it's a "w" (used to transcribe e.g. "wash" in English), and a "j" (used to transcribe "yet"), with a tilde. I can't find those two IPA characters anywhere. We use them in Portuguese. Húsönd 20:24, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Here: w̃ j̃ - using combining characters. But I don't think there is a standard IPA diacritic for a tilde over a consonant. Are you _sure_ you don't want ɯ̃? Also, our portuguese phonology article says the proper transcription for ão is /ɐ̃ũ/ - do you have references to back up the use of these symbols? --Random832 (contribs) 20:42, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Using the symbols for semivowels to indicate the second member of diphthongs is very common. ão can be transcribed either /ɐ̃ũ/ or /ɐ̃w̃/ without any significant difference. Unicode points U+1E7C and U+1E7D are Ṽ, ṽ (V, v with a tilde). I'm not aware of any other precomposed characters of a tilde over a consonant letter. —Angr 21:01, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Except of course ñ, but that doesn't occur in phonetic transcription. —Angr 22:31, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Portuguese ão is a falling diphthong so it might accurately be transcribed as [ɐ̃ũ̯]. However, there's not much difference between [u̯] and [w] and the use of either depends a great deal on the whims of the transcriber so [ɐ̃w̃] seems pretty accurate despite being inconsistent with the way ao is being transcribed at various pages on Wikipedia. Also, AFAIK, the tilde diacritic can be used on any IPA character. At least, that's what our article on nasalization seems to say. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 21:05, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I've studied linguistics for a few years in college and we would always transcribe the Portuguese nasal diphthongs as follows: ão>ɐ̃w̃, ãe>ɐ̃j̃, õe>õj̃. Always a vowel and a semi-vowel, both bearing a tilde. Thanks for teaching me how to create these characters. Maybe previous users encountered the same difficulty in producing them, thereby opting for a vowel instead of a semi-vowel substitute for the IPA diphthongs. Húsönd 21:43, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Note: I was relieved to discover that the article on Portuguese phonology on the Portuguese Wikipedia corroborates the correct IPA transcription of the Portuguese nasal diphthongs. Húsönd 21:54, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

In Brazilian Portuguese at least (I don't know about European), [ ȷ̃ ] also occurs as an allophone of /ɲ/ in words like minha [ˈmĩȷ̃ɐ]. —Angr 22:31, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

As someone who's worked a little on Portuguese phonology, I can assure you that using [u] rather than [w] was not the result of technical difficulties. See the talk page for the discussion regarding the diphthongs. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 23:29, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

What does 'ffridd hafren primula' mean in Welsh?

It's my pony's Welsh name, would really like to know what it means!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.240.65.185 (talk) 19:56, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

In Welsh? In Welsh it means 'ffridd hafren primula'. If you are asking what it means in English, then all I can say is that it has something to do with peace. --ChokinBako (talk) 20:05, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

It reads "Mountain-pasture of the Severn Primula". Primula is not Welsh, but a Latin botanical name for the genus containing the primrose plants. The Welsh word for primrose is briallen. Strad (talk) 20:19, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Anyone able to use the Devanagari script or even better read the Nepali language?

It would be helpful if someone can add the name in the Nepali language to Ma timi bina marihalchhu in the Devanagari script. I presume the name in this film poster at the top [5] is the name of the film given the similarities in colouring etc to the romanisation of the name so provided you have sufficient understanding of how to use the Devanagari script you could hopefully do it even without understanding what it says Nil Einne (talk) 21:30, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

 Done. But the article's probably about to get deleted anyway. —Angr 05:23, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that. You may be right about the deletion. I wanted to see if searching for the name in Nepali found more results but it doesn't, not that it means much Nil Einne (talk) 09:12, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

August 5

"Young at Heart"

Would anyone happen to know a word that describes someone who is young at heart? Like, "Bob is _____(young at heart)____." Thanks for your help! 132.250.122.83 (talk) 12:16, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

young,youthful, childlike, childish, boyish, girlish, young-looking, vigorous, energetic, lively, enthusiastic, active, sprightly. cheers, 10draftsdeep (talk) 13:25, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Somehow, I don't think "Bob is girlish" is going to convey quite the same meaning as "Bob is young at heart". —Angr 13:46, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I think you've assumed Bob is male, which is possible but not known. 79.66.32.107 (talk) 20:00, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Evergreen - X201 (talk) 13:48, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

"Cardialogically juvenile" ? :-) StuRat (talk) 01:42, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Temperamentally neotenous.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 12:27, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

"I am" with past-perfect verbs

Is there a name for the grammatical construction which involves, for instance, saying "I am arrived" instead of "I have arrived"? And what are the differences in precise meaning and connotation between these two phrases, if any? An article here(I can't find it at the moment), gives "I am seen wonderful things" as the translation of a Basque sentence; how is that different from "I have seen..."? 207.233.84.97 (talk) 19:56, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

The name I would use is 'archaic'. In older forms of English, forms of 'to be' could be used to form the perfect of unaccusative verbs, as in French and German, but this almost obsolete. It has never been grammatical with transitive verbs (again as in French), so 'I am seen' (as an active perfect) is ungrammatical at all stages of English. --ColinFine (talk) 20:17, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

It's not really past tense in English to use a past participle. The usual formation of the present perfect is the present tense of to have followed by the past participle, for example 'you have played'. This usually suggests a present state that has been ongoing for some time. The combination of a form of 'to be' with the past participle is more rare in Modern English, it was formerly more common. It is retained for certain statives like 'she is finished', giving a sense of completion (perfective aspect) even though the state is only now achieved. The use of such a grammatical construction beyond this limited set of statives is now incorrect in Modern English. Thus, 'I am arrived' may have been popular in the past, especially in archaizing poetry, but is 'I have arrived' in Modern English. One can say 'I am seeing wonderful things' (progressive aspect) or 'I have seen wonderful things' (perfect aspect), but not 'I am seen wonderful things'. However, the passive voice is 'I am seen by wonderful things'. The usage of the past participle with 'to be' stems from its nature as an adjective. Other Germanic languages, like German, still use both 'sein' and 'haben' with past participles. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 20:21, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

ColinFine, I don't think I'm following your last example. Would this not be an example? The spy is reporting on his mission: "I have just entered the control room, when I am seen by the guard." (Other than this uncommon example, I certainly agree that I am (past-tense) is... past its prime. OtherDave (talk) 22:07, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

As Gareth says, 'I am seen' is completely grammatical - if a little unusual - in the sense that somebody sees me. It is ungrammatical as any kind of alternative or equivalent to 'I have seen'. --ColinFine (talk) 22:37, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Gotcha. Thanks. Where's the coffee? OtherDave (talk) 01:37, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Let's not ignore the mention of the Basque sentence, which is probably meant to be an example of the ergative - so it may look like it says "I am seen wonderful things" but it doesn't actually mean that. Hopefully someone else can explain what the ergative actually is, since I don't quite get it. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:27, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

See recent and typically erudite discussion (with good links) at Languagehat. Note also that Slavic languages use their verb to be as an auxiliary in all compound active forms. Example in Serbian:

Ja sam pio rakiju.

= I [auxiliary, part of biti "to be", <> "am" or "have"] drunk raki.

= I drank raki.

That's what a male speaker would say. A female speaker would use the feminine form of the active participle:

Ja sam pila rakiju.

The participle must agree with the subject just as an adjective would. The passive participles are different in form, so though they also take forms of the verb "to be" as auxiliaries (with agreement in number and gender, as typically in other European languages like French and Italian) there is no confusion:

Ja sam brao jabuke.

= I [male] picked apples.

Ja sam brala jabuke.

= I [female] picked apples.

Oni su brali jabuke.

= They [male, or mixed] picked apples.

Jabuka je brana.

= [The] apple is picked.

Jabuke su brane.

= Apples are picked.

[Subject to correction of details. My Balkan is a bit rusty. :) ]

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 14:03, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Italian translation

Resolved

Can someone translate this sentence for me: "Vi sono soldi per cibo e caramelle nel portafoglio". Thanks --212.120.246.239 (talk) 20:31, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

With a little help from Google, I get "There is money for food and sweets in the wallet."--El aprendelenguas (talk) 21:30, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Speeded or sped

Which is grammatically correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.159.153 (talk) 22:46, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

• Both. According to wikt:speed, the British English convention is that "sped" is used for objects in motion (the race car sped up) while "speeded" is used otherwise, but American English doesn't make that distinction. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 23:24, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

So what does American English use? Speeded or sped or both are acceptable in any situation? --Lgriot (talk) 00:38, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I can't speak for all Americans, but I use them specifically in different contexts. If the verb means "exceed the posted speed limit", I use speeded, as in she speeded, and got a ticket for it. If the verb simply means "go fast", then I use sped, as in the Road Runner sped across the desert. In particular, it's always sped up, never *speeded up. —Keenan Pepper 00:58, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Interesting, thanks. --Lgriot (talk) 06:13, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I've thought about this in the past as well, and since "speeded" always sounds somehow wrong to me, I just avoid it entirely. In Keenan's sentence I would say "she was speeding...", so there is no past tense. Otherwise I agree with the usage of "sped". (I am Canadian if that matters.) Adam Bishop (talk) 07:20, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I am a AmEn speaker and also would not use "speeded" but I also find forms like pleaded and dived grating. Since those are widely used by television reporters, I suspect I may be in a minority on this. Rmhermen (talk) 13:42, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

In America speeded vs sped is a regional thing. Marriam-Webster (American dictionary) recogizes both forms while the OED (British dictionary) recogizes speeded only as a form of the noun speed (not the verb). Omahapubliclibrary (talk) 16:46, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

August 6

Can't be arsed/assed

Where does this unpleasant english phrase come from? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.159.153 (talk) 00:17, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Yep, it is crude. Here[6] it's used by seriously demotivated people who lazily shorten the phrase from "Can't be bothered to get of my arse... (to do something, fix something, ...)" -- likewise in the sense of being unwilling and there's a pun with "Can't be asked" (so why would you?). As some would say, it's a "No." As to its origins, I don't know. Julia Rossi (talk) 06:15, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Just hypothesising here, in a cheeky kind of way. Could it have some connection with "half-arsed"? Someone who does something in an unsatisfactory or inadequate manner is said to be guilty of doing it half-arsed. Maybe it has to do with their lack of motivation or energy, or maybe it's just plain laziness. Could it be that when they get so unmotivated that they can't bothered to do it at all, they go the whole hog (rump?) from half-arsed to arsed? Thinking laterally, might "half-arsed" also be related to going off "half-cocked"? And why is a person who does something well not said to have done it "cocked"? -- JackofOz (talk) 08:14, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Because at that point it's considered to be "at full cock (of a gun) with the cock lifted to the position at which the trigger will act". So it looks like being unprepared is worth more notice that someone who just gets the job done. Julia Rossi (talk) 10:15, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes I think I know this one. A half cocked gun (flintlock variety) is unlikely to ignite the gunpowder properly and maybe give a slow burn therefore not doing the job properly. But I just cant be arsed to find any refs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.158.184 (talk) 13:07, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Half-cocked is the loaded safety position of a flintlock. If it goes off at half cock the weapon has dangerously malfunctioned when you were not expecting it. So "to act prematurely or without reflection or too soon".(WordNet) Rmhermen (talk) 13:37, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Believe it or not the term arsed has been around for at least a millennium. The OED lists early forms appearing as early as c.1000. It is now used as (near exclusively course) slang and means "having an arse. (Chiefly in comb.) Usu. as a terminal element: half-arsed, smart-arsed, etc." Omahapubliclibrary (talk) 16:52, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Whilst I can easily believe the term 'arse' has been in use for over 1000 years, and that 'arsed' means having an arse; but why does 'cant be arsed' mean cant be botherd? Can anyone be arsed to give a proper answer?

I do believe Julia Rossi gave you an answer above. Can't you be arsed to read it? Corvus cornix_talk 18:27, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Japanese

What does something along the lines of "zeh tai dai jo" mean? (I don't know if that's the correct romaji, probably not, but that's how it sounds). Thanks in advance. 92.80.22.121 (talk) 08:39, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it's "zettai daijōbu". ぜったい大丈夫. It means "absolutely OK/fine". Oda Mari (talk) 10:00, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

It has something to do with swearing. Like "I swear"... Any ideas? Or it might be what you said. Thanks.92.80.22.121 (talk) 10:28, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

"zettai" might be translated as "I swear", e.g. "I swear I'm fine" or "I swear she's fine". -- BenRG (talk) 11:50, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. 92.80.22.121 (talk) 12:42, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

But don't forget "zettai" is not "I swear". It's better to think the "I swear" part is omitted. But I prefer "I assure you" to "I swear". Look at these J to E dictionary pages. [7] and [8]. Oda Mari (talk) 14:34, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I usually just translate 'zettai' (絶対) as 'definitely', so I would say 'I am definitely fine' or 'it will definitely be OK'. In fact, if you want to use something with the same strength of meaning and the same colloquiality as 'I swear', you would use マジで in place of 絶対.--ChokinBako (talk) 16:01, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

What language is this?

Can someone explain the text removed from this edit? Dismas|^(talk) 12:37, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Seems to be French with one or two slang/dialect words thrown in complementing her on her ample breasts. Fribbler (talk) 12:43, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it wonderful that Wikipedia is able to attract vandals from around the world ? StuRat (talk) 15:47, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Help translating a motto into English

I have added the motto E singulis communitas to the infobox of the article York, Ontario, based on the image to the right. I am not sure of the translation, though from my Latin dictionary, it translated as "Of a single community". I would appreciate help from Latinists in this Wikipedia or even from the Latin Wikipedia. Johnny Au _{(talk/contributions)} 03:56, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

"Out of single ones, a community". It looks like it is inspired by E pluribus unum. ---Sluzzelin talk 13:52, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I have made the change based on your suggestion. Johnny Au _{(talk/contributions)} 15:46, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome. Please keep an eye on this thread though. I'm not a Latinist, and someone might spot a subtle (or not so subtle) mistake in my translation. I guess "out of (six) single communities, one community" makes sense, referring to 1998, when York, Ontario and five other municipalities amalgamated into one single city of Toronto. ---Sluzzelin talk 18:13, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I have no support for the notion, but since the time capsule (and presumably York's motto) dates from before the amalgamation of the municipalities, I'd assume that the motto simply means "From individuals, a community," referring to the citizens of the city. Deor (talk) 18:26, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Arabic names: ابن

Could someone clarify a few things about the Arabic word ابن (ibnu) when used with names. If I can remember it aright, the alif is dropped when the word is part of a nasab and is preceded by a proper ism: محمّد بن إبرهيم (muḥammadu bni ʾibrahīmi). When written without case endings, I've seen both transliterations, ibn and bin, used. The latter seems more to reflect the dropping of the alif, but the former is more common. Does anyone know the rules for this, or is this just local variation? — Gareth Hughes (talk) 14:09, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Hyphens and parsing of prefixes and suffixes

In English, is there any standard dictating that prefixes and suffixes with hyphens be parsed after those without, or that both sides of a hyphen be parsed before the join across the hyphen is made? For example, can "undeletable" be disambiguated by rendering it as "un-deletable" (impossible to delete) or "undelet-able" (possible to undelete)? NeonMerlin 16:24, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

English does not have standards. I would understand "un-deletable" as you intend it, but would write "non-deletable" myself. For the second one I would write "undelete-able"; I think if you have to hyphenate it then the usual deletion of the final E is canceled. --Anonymous, 16:51, August 6, 2008.

"Br,"

I've noticed very many of my work colleaques sign their email with:

Br,

Firstname Lastname.

What the heck does this "Br," mean? JIP | Talk 18:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Such an abbreviation is too sloppy for me, but it's quite possibly "Best regards" Astronaut (talk) 18:16, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Chat abbrivations in work email? Yikes, not everyone in a work place knows chatspeak, also it's unprofessional. 70.165.110.211 (talk) 18:42, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

"Freund" and "Freundin"

In German, "boyfriend" is "Freund" and "girlfriend" is "Freundin". But "Freund" also simply means "friend" and "Freundin" is simply its female form. How do Germans distinguish between simple acquintances and intimate relationships when they use the same words for both? JIP | Talk 18:11, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

-Dialects in Spanish and English

From a amateur and completely subjective perspective, the difference between Spanish and Catalan seems as far as the difference between 'normal' English and some variations like Glaswegian English. Strangely, Catalan is not considered a dialect or variation of Spanish. Historically it is also meaningful to consider Catalan a language. However, why do we consider Glaswegian English and other variation, English at all? Does it have merely a political motivation? (i.e. to consider the UK as a unity)Mr.K. (talk) 18:18, 6 August 2008 (UTC)