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September 6

Julius Caesar as tribune

As a patrician, how was it that Julius Caesar was elected as a tribune, a position available only for plebians? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 06:30, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

According to our article, at least, he was military tribune, not tribune of the plebs. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:33, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Then there was Julius' little-known younger brother, Harold, who was also a Tribune. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 08:59, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

You are in a sort of Gary Larson mood, aren't you? --pma (talk) 14:56, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Maybe he is Gary Larson. That would explain a lot ...  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 20:44, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

More like Henny Youngman or Richard Armour. Except for the part about being dead. (Knock on plywood). Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 21:12, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Are you sure you're not dead? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 17:33, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Political views

Hello. If someone please answer the following questions, it will be a great help.

• What is the American neoconservative view on drug liberalization for recreational purpose?
• What is the American neoconservative view on assisted suicide?
• What is the American neoconservative view on human cloning?
• What is the modern liberal (NOT classical liberal) view on drug liberalization for recreational purpose? The article Modern liberalism in the United States says modern liberals support drug liberalization for medical or industrial purposes, but does not clarify their position on drug liberalization for recreational purpose.
• What is the modern liberal (NOT classical liberal) view on human cloning?
• What is the modern liberal (NOT classical liberal) view on prostitution? Are they opposed to prostitution or supports legalization? As far as I know, the Democratic Party is officially opposed to prostitution.
• What is the libertarian view on public nudity and public sex? Do libertarians oppose laws against public sex?
• What is the libertarian view on child labor?
• What is the libertarian view on child pornography?
• What is the libertarian view on worker's safety regulations?

Thanks. AquaticMonkey (talk) 08:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Which class are you writing this paper for? :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 08:58, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

To clarify the above statement, we've got a policy of not doing your homework for you. Vimescarrot (talk) 09:26, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

It is not homework, I am just interested in American politics, and unable to find any suitable reference on the questions asked. I also searched google several times, but did not find a single reference. If anyone is knowledgeable about the views of mainstream American liberals, neocons and libertarians, the three main political streams in the US, please reply. Thank you. AquaticMonkey (talk) 10:39, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

This strikes me as the seed for an endless debate, and should be ignored. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 10:56, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

On the whole, if you cannot readily find an answer to "What are (political grouping)'s views on (topic), it is because said grouping has no consistently articulated views on the topic. --ColinFine (talk) 14:21, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Um, the above pessimism on characterization of political views aside, neocons are generally against drug liberalization, assisted suicide, and cloning. In general I'd say the liberal position on recreational drugs varies by the drug (marijuana, maybe; crack, no). Liberal view on cloning is not clear but leans against it. Prostitution, unclear—some against, some for legalization+regulation. No clue about libertarians and public sex/nudity—probably varies a lot, probably no "standard" position. Don't know Libertarian stances on child exploitation in general—in cases where one could argue the "market" has a hand (e.g. labor) they probably favor the free-market approach, though in cases like pornography I imagine they favor regulation (violation of the child's individual rights). Libertarians are generally against safety regulations—think the market will fix it up. All of the above likely vary quite a bit between individuals though to pretend these categories don't line up with certain political viewpoints is silly. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 17:44, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much. This helped a lot in clearing my confusion. AquaticMonkey (talk) 18:03, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I’ll take a shot at it:

Neocons 1. strongly against; 2. against; 3. mildly against;

Libs 4. strongly for; 5. for; 6. neutral;

Libs 7. should be legal; 8. should be legal; 9. should be legal; 10. should be determined by workers and employers. DOR (HK) (talk) 02:41, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't even make sense to describe the 'neoconservative' view on many domestic issues, because 'neoconservatism' is mostly defined as a foreign-policy attitude. Not a comprehensive ideology. --Pykk (talk) 19:26, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

It certainly is incomprehensible to me! DOR (HK) (talk) 06:27, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

The word has taken on the sense (in some circles) of "archconservative", which is inaccurate and sloppy, IMO. --Sean 15:59, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Descent of Lothair III, Holy Roman Emperor

Who was Lothair III descended from? Nothing is mention about his father, Gebhard of Supplinburg, or his mother, Hedwig von Formbach. Were they descendants of Charlemagne or any other previous Holy Roman Emperors in anyway? --Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 10:01, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

For starters, this is a translation from de:Supplinburger:

1. Liutger, 1013 Count, 1021 Count in the Harzgau, 1013-1031 confirmed/accounted for
   1. ? Luther, Count 1042/1062
   2. ? Bernhard, † before 1069, 1052 Count in the Harzgau and Derlingau as well as Northern Thuringia, 1043-1062 confirmed/accounted for, ∞ Ida von Querfurt, daughter of Count Gebhard I.
      1. Gebhard von Süpplingenburg, † 9. Juni 1075 in the Battle of Homburg an der Unstrut (see First Battle of Langensalza), 1052 Count in the Harzgau, ∞ Hedwig von Formbach, probably widow of a Count Heinrich, daughter of Friedrich von Formbach and Gertrud von Haldensleben (third marriage with Dietrich, after 1090 Duke of the Upper Lorraine († 30. Dezember 1115) (House of Châtenois)
         1. Lothar von Supplinburg, * June 1075 before the 9., † 4. December 1137 in Breitenwang, Tyrol, 1100 Count, 1106 Duke of Saxony, Mainz 24. August 1125 King of the Romans, Rome 8. June 1133 Emperor, buried in Königslutter; ∞ 1100 Richenza of Northeim, † 1141, issue of Henry the Fat, Count of Northeim and Gertrude of Brunswick
            1. Gertrude of Süpplingenburg, * 18. April 1115, † 18. April 1143), buried in Klosterneuburg; ∞ I 29. May 1127 on the Gunzenle Hill Henry the Proud, 1126-1138 Duke of Saxony, 1137-1139 Duke of Bavaria und Margrave of Tuscany, † 20. October 1139 in Quedlinburg, buried in Königslutter (House of Welf), ∞ II 1. Mai 1142 Henry II, Duke of Austria, 1141 Margrave and 1156 Duke of Austria, † 13. January 1177, buried at the Schottenstift, Vienna (House of Babenberg)
         2. Ida, † 3. March probably 1138, buried at Michaelstein Abbey; ∞ Sieghard IX. Count of Tengling (House of Sieghard), decapitated 5. February 1104 in Regensburg
      2. Thietmar, † 1093, 1090 Elect of the Bishopric of Halberstadt

The German article on Lothair III writes that Lothair's father, Gebhard von Süpplingenburg, belonged to Saxon high nobility and to the opposition against Henry IV, Holy Roman Emperor. ---Sluzzelin talk 13:15, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

number of merchant ship calls in La Valetta Malta

Please let me know the number of merchant ship calls in La Valetta (Malta) each year from 1800 to 1807 inclusive mentioning also your source of reference 94.64.181.81 (talk) 10:06, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

If such records even still exist, I guess your best bet for finding them might be the National Archives of the Government of Malta. Follow that link for the contact information to submit your request. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 18:21, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Jesuit Missions of the Chiquitos

I am looking for help with two questions (see the itemized list there) raised in the peer review of Jesuit Missions of the Chiquitos. It would be great if somebody had any input on these. The first of these questions might be answered in Molina Barbery, Placido (1995). Las misiones jesuíticas de Chiquitos (in Spanish). Pedro Querejazu (ed.). La Paz, Bolivia: Fundación Banco Hipotecario Nacional, Línea Editorial, La Papelera. pp. 718 p. :. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link) so if anybody has access to this book that might help as well. bamse (talk) 11:43, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Victoria and Albert Museum

Who or what is the statue on the top of the V&A? 86.171.234.231 (talk) 11:53, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

According to this (and other sources), it's a sculpture of Fame by Edouard Lanteri. Deor (talk) 13:26, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I wonder how many times a day they get asked whether they have Prince Albert in the can? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 11:39, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Very rarely,it's not sold over here in the UK...88.96.226.6 (talk) 09:56, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Old Finnish man's logic

I once read a story about an old Finnish man. He found a bowl of week-old porridge in his fridge. He thought he'd better eat it and not let it go to waste, but he didn't quite feel like eating such bad-tasting food. So he got a bottle of Koskenkorva vodka, and set it on the table behind the plate, saying to himself: "Eat that porridge and you'll get to drink that vodka as a reward." So he reluctantly ate the porridge, and after he had finished, he looked at the bottle of vodka, and thought: "Well, I managed to eat the porridge even without the vodka, so I don't need it any more", and put it back in the fridge, unopened. Is a similar story told elsewhere too? Does it refer to a specific concept in human behaviour? Does Wikipedia have an article about it? JIP | Talk 17:23, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Miser? Best, WikiJedits (talk) 18:15, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Delayed gratification, but with an extra twist. --ColinFine (talk) 20:26, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Virtue is its own reward? (Not that I regard the enforced eating of possibly toxic food in order to satisfy the desire not to waste anything as necessarily virtuous, or sane.) -- JackofOz (talk) 20:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

The bottle of vodka could be compared to a catalyst (necessary for accelerating the comsumption of porridge, but not consumed itself during the process). ---Sluzzelin talk 20:54, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

So what happened? Did he die of botulism? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 21:09, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

So, it's a moral to all the budding botulists out there? --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 11:44, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Go away, son, y'bother us... HalfShadow 17:23, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think folk stories work like that:' And so the man *insert moral here*. Then he puked up his stomach and died the next day' Sort of a downer, see? HalfShadow 21:12, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, too practical for my own good. Pease porridge in the pot... seven days old? Ugh! I was just thinking that the vodka maybe could have come in handy to neutralize the bugs. Someone up north compared me to Gary Larson, and I was reminded of Larson's proposed sequel to Babette's Feast, a story he called Babette's Botulism. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 21:19, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Or to put it another way, the old man was... "Finnished". Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 21:20, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I remember reading this story, but the protaganist was Scottish and the libation was Scotch Whisky. Exxolon (talk) 22:53, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Hah, I hadn't heard that. Typical Finnish, really! HalfShadow: Nordic folks like downers. Never underestimate the bleakness of their humor.. (An example of popular Swedish cartoonist Jan Stenmark here. The caption reads: "At first she thought he was in the middle of a jump.") --Pykk (talk) 19:13, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

It's similar to a carrot on a stick. --Sean 16:02, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

September 7

song lyrics

I'm having difficulty finding the lyrics to some songs, and who wrote them. These are the songs;

Forward with the NOAA, U.S. Public Health Service March, Way Up There, WASP Hymn, and Song for the Unsung, the Men of the Merchant Marine.

"Forward with the NOAA" is the march song of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. "U.S. Public Health Service March" was written for the United States Public Health Service. "Way Up There" is the march song of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. "WASP Hymn" is a hymn specifically written for the Women Airforce Service Pilots. "Song for the Unsung, the Men of the Merchant Marine" is a hymn specifically written for the United States Merchant Marine.

Although I did find out who wrote "Flying Tigers in the China Sky", I'm having difficulty finding the lyrics to that song. Did the Black Sheep Squadron adopt "The Whiffenpoof Song"?69.203.157.50 (talk) 00:52, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

You can hear "Way Up There" here. --Cam (talk) 01:48, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Also I found lyrics to "Way Up There" here. --Cam (talk) 01:51, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Here are a couple more. (Found by searching the official websites for these organizations for the song titles.)

(1) The NOAA Corps Song: "Bud Arberg... readily volunteered to write a song.... The music was arranged by MSgt Jari Villanueva of the USAF Band. The words are as follows:"

(2) "AUDIO: Way Up There. The song, commissioned by NASA to celebrate the Centennial of Flight, was written by Tena R. Clark"

(3) Frequently Asked Questions about the Merchant Marine: "The official song of the U.S. Maritime Service and U.S. Merchant Marine is "Heave Ho, My Lads!" There is also a "Maritime Hymn" composed in 1943 by Buddy Clarke and Ruby Melnik, and a "Song for the Unsung, The Men of the Merchant Marine" by Fred Waring and Jack Dolph

Best, WikiJedits (talk) 02:27, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Why does NOAA even have a marching song? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 17:34, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I still can't find the lyrics to "Flying Tigers in the China Sky", "U.S. Public Health Service March", "WASP Hymn", and "Song for the Unsung, the Men of the Merchant Marine". What are the lyrics to "Maritime Hymn"? Will someone please tell me if the Black Sheep Squadron adopted "The Whiffenpoof Song"? Thank you.69.203.157.50 (talk) 04:32, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

You could contact the respective organizations, if googling isn't working for you. They all seem to have archivists/historians/librarians. See:

* U.S. Public Health Service inquiries (or [1])

* Women Airforce Service Pilots Museum contact

* United States Merchant Marine Academy Library contact

* Black Sheep Squadron (VMA-214) at Marine Corps Air Station Yuma

* Sino-American Aviation Heritage Foundation or American Volunteer Group. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 14:24, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I tried the USMC air station in Yuma. But it's a secure site. They have information on the Black Sheep Squadron. But there wasn't any information if the group adopted "The Whiffenpoof Song" or not. I'd still like to figure that out.69.203.157.50 (talk) 22:16, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

August 1727

In the Doctor Who episode "The Girl in the Fireplace", the girl, a young Madame de Pompadour, says that she is in France and that it is currently the year 1727. The Doctor responds with something like "Good year. Except for August. Stay indoors then." I've looked through the 1727 article and didn't see anything significant for France in that month. So what was being referred to here? Why should she stay indoors? She wouldn't develop tuberculosis for years, so it can't be that... Dismas|^(talk) 05:23, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Maybe because it's hot as hell in August. I think this may be one of those examples of classic British wit that no one gets, even the British... --Jayron32 05:50, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

The ONLY thing I can find is that her future beau, Louis XV of France, would father his first children in August, 1727 (or rather, his wife Marie Leszczyńska would give birth to them), twin daughters Louise Elisabeth and Anne Henriette. According to Anne Hennriette's article, she and other siblings conflicted frequently with Mme. de Pompadour, oddly Louise Elisabeth was apparently a close confidant of Mme. de Pompadour, which was something of a source of tension. Still, I find it hard to believe that the birth of the sisters is the event that Dr. Who was refering to, I think the much more oblique reference to August being a hot month, and thus a good time to spend it inside, is a better guess. --Jayron32 06:00, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps without intending any specific key event the statement simply reinforced the Doctor's range of familiarity with times and spaces as a Time Lord.--Wetman (talk) 06:52, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

This question has been asked so many times that when you type "august 1" into Google, it will suggest "August 1727". Perhaps the subject merits a mention in our article. There is this book, according to which (page 306) the summer of 1727 was hot in Paris, with afternoon temperatures reaching 35°C by mid-August and remaining high through September (25°C is the average high in Paris in August today). So that could be it, or then the screenwriter just pulled it out of his hat and the heat wave is a coincidence. On the other hand, there was also the Moravian revival, maybe the Doctor knew it was caused by some kind of nasty cosmic radiation event. (By the way, what would one use for tin foil in 1727?)--Rallette (talk) 07:28, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I think you folks are behind on your superstitions. August is the Dog Days, which was generally considered a bad and unhealthy time of year. Everybody "knew" that back then! It's an idea shared in most European cultures. The warm, humid weather was evil - causing things to rot and go sour. --Pykk (talk) 18:39, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you all for your answers! Dismas|^(talk) 00:18, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

People's Crusade...?

In the People's Crusade where did they start from and what were they aiming to reach and once they reached there what was going to take place. In other words were did they start from and what were their intensions. nb: When refering to they i mean Peter the hermit and his peasants. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.233.83.26 (talk) 10:20, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Step One: Tell us what you're talking about, since you didn't link to anything. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 10:56, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

The People's Crusade, presumably. Algebraist 11:08, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

And presumably that article should answer the questions? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 11:11, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Which it does, and Peter the Hermit appears to be the archetype of "When the going gets tough, the tough get going." That is, he fled before the battle began. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 11:17, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

That article is alright, but the People's Crusade section in the First Crusade article might be more informative; a bunch of us were updating the First Crusade series of articles but I'm not sure if we ever fixed that one. Anyway, short answer, the People's Crusade originated the same way as the rest of the First Crusade - Pope Urban II started to organize an "armed pilgrimage" to help the Byzantine Empire against the Turks, and to recapture Jerusalem from the Turks, and other preachers spread his message. Peter the Hermit was one of those preachers, and was so successful in northern France (Peter was from Amiens) that actually up until relatively recently historians thought it was all Peter's idea to begin with. The "People's Crusade", or the "peasants' crusade", is not quite accurate; the Pope wanted well-armed soldiers, not a mass movement of regular people. There were certainly unarmed peasants, women, old men, etc, along with Peter, but also many knights, notably Walter Sans Avoir, and the other popular movements in Germany were led by people like Emich of Leiningen. They were supposed to wait for the main body of crusaders, who left in August of 1096, but instead they left in the spring, and started attacking Jews in Germany and other Christians in Hungary and the Byzantine Empire; sometimes this is assumed to have happened because they were illiterate peasants who had no idea where they were going and thought every city they reached must be Jerusalem, but that's not true, they knew exactly where they were going. They were just poorly-supplied and wanted food, but Hungarian and Byzantine authorities were trying to deal with moving them along as quickly as possible and they frequently conflicted because of it. Once they got to Constantinople, the Byzantine emperor, who had requested help but not that kind of help (he assumed he would get a much smaller number of mercenary knights), didn't really know what to do with them, so he sent them across into Turkish territory where they were mostly slaughtered. The survivors, like Peter the Hermit, joined the main crusaders when they arrived a few months later. Had Peter and his army actually made it to Jerusalem, and by some miracle they had actually captured it, they probably thought it would have instigated the Second Coming; now that I am thinking about it I can't actually remember what Peter thought was supposed to happen, but since he believed (or later legends said that he believed) he had a letter from Christ himself, he probably did think Christ would return. I'll have to look this up. But in more practical terms, I doubt they were thinking very far ahead after crossing into Turkish Anatolia, when they were rather desperately trying to survive. Adam Bishop (talk) 19:46, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

A letter from Jesus, I suppose personally autographed as "Jesus H. Christ" or some such. This shows the fine line that can exist between leadership and lunacy. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 11:36, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, and one group on the people's crusade was supposedly being led by a duck (or goose) that they thought was infused with the Holy Spirit. Anyway, I can't find anything more about what Peter thought he was going to accomplish, aside from the vague notion that by showing up in Jerusalem they would convert all the Muslims and restore Christian rule to the Holy Land. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:08, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

By the way, there is a relatively recent book about Peter the Hermit by Jean Flori, which would likely be useful here. (It's in French, though.) Adam Bishop (talk) 13:01, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

shakabuku

In the film Grosse Pointe Blank, Minnie Driver makes reference to shakabuku, and calls it a "spiritual kick to the head". Having lived here in Japan for a year and a half, it sounds Japanese to my ear, but my friends are unfamiliar with the term. "Shaka" is an old Japanese term for Buddhism, but the rest... help? Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 15:05, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I found this on shakubuku.

"Shaku is the action of an ax in a hand. It means to cut, to break, to burst (Wieger). To snap, to decide, to compound, to fold, to subdue evil and receive good. (Soothill)."

"Buku is a person imitating a dog — i.e. being subservient or lowly. It means to crouch, to prostrate oneself, to hide, to humble (Wieger). To prostrate, humble, suffer, bear, ambush, dog-days, under control, e.g. as delusion (Soothill)"

---Sluzzelin talk 17:13, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you so much! Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 17:20, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

You're quite welcome. May I point out that I understand none of the languages or writing systems involved and merely copied what I found. If you want more and more informed replies, you might consider moving this question to the Language Desk where several knowledgable editors regularly answer questions about the Japanese language and writing systems. ---Sluzzelin talk 17:32, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

To look up the Chinese characters given on that page, go here: 折http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUnihanData.pl?codepoint=6298 and 伏 http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUnihanData.pl?codepoint=4F0F ; there also seems to be a Japanese Wikipedia article ja:折伏... -- AnonMoos (talk) 14:11, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Or, indeed, 折伏. I would treat the folk etymology in the first set of links with caution, however. They are derived purely from the shape of the characters - "hand" + "axe" and "person" + "dog". These etymological origins of the individual characters have only an indirect bearing on the meaning of the phrase.

The more immediate meaning that comes to the term is that 折 means "fold" and 伏 means "to prostrate". The two combined means to "[make somebody] submit wholeheartedly", and has a technical meaning in Buddhism. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 04:37, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Axe and hoe songs

There's a Polish folk song that originated in Nazi-occupied Warsaw, beginning with words siekiera, motyka..., literally: "axe, hoe..." Out of curiosity, I googled the English words "axe, hoe, song" and found two websites about songs sung by black prisoners in the U.S. South that use the phrase "axe and hoe songs": [2] [3]. Are these axe and hoe songs an established musical genre? Does anyone know anything more about them? In the Polish song, the enumeration of everyday items serves no other purpose than providing rhyme to the following verse, but still, could there possibly be a connection? — Kpalion^(talk) 17:39, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

My brother and I were very young when we first heard that song so we'd make up our own lyrics for laughs. We migrated to Australia soon after that and have lived here most of our lives, but some of the made up lyrics still stick in our minds and we still crack each other up every once in a while by singing them out: siekiera motyka kurwa fajka and siekera motyka huj ananas. Still makes me laugh, you probably had to be there. Apologies if you take offence at the Polish swear words. ;) . Vespine (talk) 04:35, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, it made me snort. Have you ever tried to come up with English lyrics for the song? — Kpalion^(talk) 00:44, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

We used to translate some songs, like the Franek Kimono stuff. But the axe hoe song I think was just too ridiculous to translate. One of my fav Franek lines to this date is "In life I have just one dream, to increase attack and sustain. I'd love to make such a racket on the bass that it would knock everyone of their feet!" Most of the time we decided not to try to translate the rhymes, too difficult.. Do you know Franek Kimono, it's brilliant stuff. Vespine (talk) 06:19, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Are these repetitive songs structured to compliment monotonous labor? If they are, John Henry’s Hammer might be an example. DOR (HK) (talk) 06:36, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, indeed there are. See Work song and Sea shanty for starters. (By the way, the word is "complement", to accompany, to go with.) BrainyBabe (talk) 16:04, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Interesting to know that Americans had their Stakhanovites too. And coming back to "axe and hoe songs", would you say it's a synonym of a work song? Or a subgenre of it?

As for the Polish song, it's not so much about hard labor as it is about making fun of "the stupid painter". The "axe, hoe" here is more like the first part of a rhyme in Cockney slang – it doesn't really mean anything. I was wondering, if you could translate the title Siekiera, motyka as "Axe and Hoe" (sounds much better than the literal "Axe, Hoe") without giving the false impression that the song is about hard work? To what extent is it a fixed, idiomatic expression in English? — Kpalion^(talk) 00:44, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

"Ax(e) hoe song" is new to me. I didn't find a single reference to the term at Mudcat, a resource for lyrics, discussions, and so on related to folk song. --- OtherDave (talk) 18:31, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Municipal recycling in the UK - profits?

Are there any figures available for local councils in the UK on the amount of money they make (or lose) via the collecting and selling of recyclable plastics, metals etc from households in their region? Nanonic (talk) 21:36, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't have figures, but I did see a TV report a few months ago about how the price of recovered recycled material had collapsed, even for aluminium cans. It said that, as a result, many councils weren't sending their recycling to recycling plants, but instead were stockpiling it at places like disused airfields, waiting (hoping) for prices to recover. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 21:41, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any figures. Local authorities have individual contracts with recycling businesses, and I doubt they would release related financial information. Dalliance (talk) 23:24, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

There are certainly no profits to be made. My local council (Birmingham) reluctantly admits that they transport mixed recycled waste 100 miles by road to the nearest recycling plant that can handle it. It's all about hitting government targets.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:19, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Addison Whithecomb Debate Quote Origination

Who is, or was, Addison Whithecomb? and did he really say "When you resort to attacking the messenger and not the message, you have lost the debate." (Addison Whithecomb).

A google search will bring up lots of sites, even formal debate sites and reference sites, which quote an Addison Whithecomb as having said this, but no sites seem to mention anything about the man himself, or even that he existed.

What or who is the origination of that much quoted saying, especially as it is so often quoted without any background or verification!

Thank You A Debate CoachLadyofMcCamley (talk) 23:32, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Very interesting! This person does not seem to exist on the Internet outside of that quote. Even the spelling of the last name seems very rare; I can only find a trace of one other modern Whithecomb, that is J. Whithecomb, who wrote a 1997 paper on violence in children and apparently has no mention on the Web other than in citations to that article.--Cam (talk) 02:36, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, that "J. Whithecomb" appears to be a common misspelling of the name of Julie L. Withecomb. So the elusive Addison remains the only true Whithecomb on the Web. --Cam (talk) 03:10, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

No offense to the wise Addison Whithecomb, but he didn't invent the idea of the ad hominem fallacy, and I'm not entirely sure that's even the best quote describing it (though it's pretty good). I'd say that the idea is widespread for many reasons, most of them having little to do with Addison. Jwrosenzweig (talk) 04:43, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Completely true, Addison Whithecomb, did not originate the idea of an ad hominem attack, although his quote does explain it in easy terms, which apparently is why the quote is so popular. I'm more interested in how his quote has risen to the status of being quoted by so many debate clubs and resource sites, with apparent "authority" with little (actually none that I can find) evidence that the man ever existed or why we should care HE said it. I'm using it as an object lesson to the class on how to evaluate evidence and authoritative quotes. Something sounds so good it is repeated everywhere until it takes on the appearance of valid evidence (quote) but that does not mean it is a credible source as it is unverifiable. Everyone assumes someone else must have verified it, so they keep using it. I find it fascinating that this quote creeps into so many debate sites and reference sites that should be concerned with validating their sources since that is what they are attempting to teach their students. Anywho...I figured if anyone should know who Addison Whithecomb was or is, or how this quote ever got to be so prominent, and if there be any verification for it, the Wikipedia crew could unearth it. Thanks LadyofMcCamley (talk) 01:54, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

After some searching in the usual (non-Google) places, I'm thinking "Whithecomb" is one of those internet mirages. If anyone has evidence of a real person writing that phrase (with citations), I'd be glad to hear about it. Weepy.Moyer (talk) 01:06, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

The earliest reference I can find to this quote is from February 1, 2001, on a site called ThinkExist. http://thinkexist.com/quotation/when_you_resort_to_attacking_the_messenger_and/221269.html

September 8

Statistics on sleeping rough in England

I'd like to know some up-to-date figures, and an idea of trends, on the numbers of people sleeping rough in England. Homelessness in England#Statistics gives a figure of 498 in September 2007, but the reference to this information is a dead link. Is any more recent information available, and how are the numbers changing over, say, the past ten years? Many thanks. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 07:47, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Anecdotally, I'd take any you find with a truckload of salt, as people in certain categories are excluded, for example, people who live in tents. My source for this is a community worker who works with homeless people in an English town. She is employed by a charity, because the council says it doesn't have any homeless people so it won't employ anyone to work with them. --TammyMoet (talk) 08:41, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I remember some years ago seeing two sleeping bags in central London with begging 'bowls' next to them. I wondered if they were really people or if someone had put dummies there to collect some money. No luggage as far as I recall. 78.149.142.179 (talk) 11:05, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Here is where CLG keeps its homelessness stats, fwiw. The Rough Sleeping Estimate : June 2008 says 483 people. However I take TammyMoet's point. --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:14, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Other estimates for rough sleeping are much higher. Thames Reach Bondway, a housing charity, gave a figure of 3,472 in London in July. Certain inner-London authorities have been accused of deliberately lowering their figures by moving people out the day before they know the DCLG does its headcount. Sam Blacketer (talk) 16:20, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

The TRB figure is "the number of individuals contacted by outreach teams across London in the past year". --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:07, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I realize that we're talking apples and oranges here, but that seems like an amazingly low number. Recent reports have the number of homeless in the city of Sacramento, California, a rather small city as far as US cities go, at 1200. In one small city. I realize there are a lot more people in the US than in "England" (or is the number being reports for the whole UK?), but is the disparity that great? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 17:50, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

The situation is proportionately worse in the United States than in the United Kingdom, so you'd expect higher numbers of homeless in a US city than in a British city of the same size. The main reasons for this are 1) subsidized public housing, or council flats, make up a larger proportion of the housing stock in the UK than in the US, so there is a greater relative supply of affordable units; and 2) British welfare benefits (jobseeker's allowance, income support, and housing benefit) are more generous and widely available than comparable benefits in the US, particularly in that they don't have time limits. These programs create a tighter safety net in the UK such that a smaller share of the population ends up on the street. Marco polo (talk) 18:42, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

FYI, London and Sacramento are about as close in size as London and Bristol, so those would be a better baseline comparison I should think. Googlemeister (talk) 19:26, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

But, the original questioner said there were only 498 homeless in the whole of "England", not in London. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 06:32, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

There's another important factor: the difference between being homeless and sleeping rough. The main UK charity for this issue, Shelter, offers this definition:

Who is legally classed as homeless?

In deciding whether you are homeless, the council has to look at any accommodation you have access to. You should be considered homeless if:

   * you have no home in the UK or anywhere else in the world
   * you have no home where you can live together with your immediate family
   * you can only stay where you are on a very temporary basis
   * you don't have permission to live where you are
   * you have been locked out of home and you aren't allowed back
   * you can't live at home because of violence or abuse or threats of violence or abuse, which are likely to be carried out against you or someone else in your household
   * it isn't reasonable for you to stay in your home for any reason (for example, if your home is in very poor condition)
   * you can't afford to stay where you are
   * you live in a vehicle or boat and you have nowhere to put it.

The council has to look at your situation as a whole before deciding whether you are homeless. For example, even if you have accommodation that you have a legal right to live in and no one is trying to get you out, it may not be reasonable for you to stay there. This would be the case if you are experiencing violence or abuse or harassment, or if the condition of your home is damaging your health.

Sleeping rough (on the street, on a park bench, in some circumstances in a car, etc.) is a different matter. BrainyBabe (talk) 21:34, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Making love rather than making war to win

First of all, I don't mean to offend.

Okay, I just thought that current population trends see that developed countries have declining fertility rates while developing ones are not. Searching the internet show "plans" of outbreeding the enemy by slowly replacing the native people with their own, causing them to run the place sooner or later (outbreed then outvote). Question is what do you call this "tactic" and are there any historical evidence to prove that it actually worked.

I think that this concept is either a product of a paranoid supremacist or a very idealist radical group.--121.54.2.183 (talk) 08:36, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

There's some evidence that's what's happening in Northern Ireland. Not necessarily through any deliberate policy, but the Catholic and Protestant denominations in NI have differing Religious views on birth control and the proportion of Catholics (strongly correlated with Irish nationalism) is gradually increasing. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 09:15, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I've heard people say overtly, "we need to produce more [name the ethnic group]". It's not exactly a plan, since you can't really compel people to reproduce. However, I wouldn't question for a second, the premise that the Catholic stance against contraception is fueled in part by the notion of maximizing the number of Catholics in the world. And since half the world's Christians are Catholics, it seems to have worked - combined with long-standing aggressive recruitment, of course. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 11:30, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Hasn't worked that well. It used to be that 100% of the world's Christians were Catholics. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 11:46, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Technically, yes. Between the Great Schism and the Reformation, the Catholic monopoly has been eroded. Yet hundreds of years after those events, they still have half the world's Christians. That's a pretty good retention record. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 11:52, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

There is an unintended ironic consquence to Opie's title for this section though: Those groups that breed in larger numbers, which are often ethnic minorities and lower economic classes, also often seem to find themselves joining the Army in order to find work - and thus also making themselves more vulnerable to being shot. So it's not necessarily a choice of make love or make war - it's often both. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 11:33, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

They have similar views about birth control. The major reason in the last 30 years or so for the decline in the protestant proportion is that they are more likely to go to Britain. It was especially noticeable with university students, hopefully the peace process will slow or stop the process by allowing growth at home. Dmcq (talk) 11:36, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Conventional wisdom is that warfare and pandemics will tend to thin out those burgeoning populations. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 11:54, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I believe the OP was referring to a situation where one part of a whole would try to gain control via numerical superiority. A related historical example, if one allows for the consideration of entire countries as the "parts" and the world as the system, would be Red China from approximately 1954~1980. People were actively encouraged to pump out babies to "strengthen" the country. Of course, look where that plan has gotten them - world's largest population, the adoption of the extreme one-child policy to counteract the decades of stupidity, and soaring social welfare costs with no end in sight and a rapidly inverting population pyramid that will be unable to support itself via taxation.

61.189.63.208 (talk) 12:26, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Closer to home is the growing hispanic population in America, which is becoming a major "swing" in the Presidential and other elections. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 12:43, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

The deal is, its a bullshit idea. More people are a greater strain on resources, and larger populations tend to consume more than they produce after a certain limit. The idea of deliberately breeding to force out another group of people is not an entirely new one, but in the modern world there is little correlation between raw numbers of people and hegemonic power. Indeed, China's deliberate anti-birthrate policies have not exactly hurt their economic growth, now has it? There may be differing birthrates among different population groups living in an area, and that may slowly effect demographic changes, but to say that these cultural difference cause differing birthrates is MUCH different than to say that there is some conspiratorial goal of these population groups to somehow force themselves into power by having more kids than other groups. --Jayron32 15:21, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps worth asking - is there a correlation between Birthrate and Infant mortality? If there is we could (yes, Correlation does not imply causation) hypothesize that high-birth rates exist where the likelihood of any given individual surviving to adulthood is low. This appears to be true of many animals and whilst we have the conscious mind, culture, society etc. it may be that this is a factor in the group-decisions of high-birthrate populations. (I appreciate there will doubtlessly be lots of impacting factors). 15:31, 8 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.221.133.226 (talk)

follow-up - a very brief scan of the lists List of countries by birth rate and List of countries by infant mortality rate suggests that there is a correlation (most of the top 10 infant mortality appear in the top 15 birth rate). 194.221.133.226 (talk) 15:35, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Anecdotal evidence would suggest that used to be true in America also. My great-grandparents' generation had lots of kids, several of which did not survive into adulthood. However, don't rule out the ignorance factor of the population, about contraception methods. Prior to Margaret Sanger's efforts, publishing information about contraception was illegal in America. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 15:46, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

The idea is called "natalism". --Sean 16:07, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Other articles you may wish to peruse are Revenge of the cradle and Demographic warfare. They are not great but they provide a start. BrainyBabe (talk) 16:08, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

In their state as of right now, both those articles are rather lame. They should probably be merged and cleaned up considerably... AnonMoos (talk) 18:17, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for input and the articles guys. This is really one weird tactic.--121.54.2.188 (talk) 01:13, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Hitler tried this scheme to increase Aryan numbers; he awarded the Cross of Honor of the German Mother to prolific producers. But population growth can cause more problems than it solves, due to a dilution of resources, including food. See this, for example. Gwinva (talk) 04:23, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I was right about the paranoid supremacist part of my question then :) --121.54.2.188 (talk) 04:53, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

The Soviet Union also awarded motherhood medals. BrainyBabe (talk) 05:32, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Premiere performances

If someone advertised a concert as containing the first performance in, say, Canada of Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture, there'd be thousands of emails and phone calls before the concert objecting to such a claim. A rather more obscure work that had in fact had a previous outing there would attract less attention, but still some. But back in the good old days, pre-web, how did they know that an upcoming performance of some piece in, say, Budapest could be accurately advertised as the premiere performance in that city, or in that country? Was there some great book where all premiere performances were meticulously recorded, or was it down to the memories of the cognoscenti? -- JackofOz (talk) 09:28, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Back in the Dark Ages pre-Web (in which 2/3 of my life to date was spent), most specialist professions and areas of interest had at least one and usually several-to-many regular journals (periodically compiled devices made from assembled sheets of thinly-pressed wood-pulp on which dark liquid had been impressed to form permanent images and writing) devoted to its doings. These were regularly circulated both to interested private individuals and to public libraries, and frequently bound into more permanent volumes to which regularly updated indices were added. As such they formed a de facto though not necessarily de jure consultable record of such events against which individuals' memories - indeed an important (and in aggregate impressively powerful) factor as you suggest - could be corroborated.

In addition, similar one-off factual compilations (called "books") devoted to relevant subjects (such as Tchaikovsky and his Works) would frequently, though not necessarily with complete comprehensiveness, record such landmark events.

It would, of course, have been in the interests of any impresario to avoid making such refutable errors, since after only a few his/her professional reputation would become relatively worthless. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 14:29, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Well said, 87! I may quote you on this pre-Web system of knowledge transfer. BrainyBabe (talk) 16:11, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

In order to perform a work you have to ask permission of the author. Usually an author of a work will know if a request is the first in a country. If the author has died then the copyright holder fulfils the same function. It's pretty rare that a work that has gone out of copyright is anywhere close to having a premiere. DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:16, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

One candidate I'd like to see produced is Bram Stoker's own original play version of Dracula: or The Undead. It was written and given a single performance (a matinee at the Lyceum Theatre, London on 18 May 1897, a week before the novel's release) purely to secure a performance copyright so that others could not legally stage their own versions without permission from or payment to Stoker. The performance was unadvertised (bar playbills displayed only half-an-hour in advance of the 10:15am commencement) and only 2 tickets were sold, so I don't think this counts as a premiere in the modern sense. (Stoker was of course the Lyceum's Manager, so all this was easy for him to arrange). The sole MS was then lodged with the Lord Chamberlain's Office as required, and the work was first published in book form only in October 1997.

Although various stage (and of course film) adaptations of Dracula have been written by others and performed over the years, I'm not aware that this original has yet seen a second (and more conventionally accessible) performance. The first edition's indicia seem to confirm that the play itself (though not the accompanying modern introduction, notes etc.) is out of copyright. (I suppose I should add something about all this to the relevant article pages.) 87.81.230.195 (talk) 18:34, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Fascinating. Not quite in the same league: The signature theme for the now-defunct Australian radio serial Blue Hills was taken from a work written by a British-born composer, Ronald Hanmer. It ran for 27 years (1949-76) and the theme became famous, indeed, dare I say it, iconic, to most Australians. Hanmer moved to Australia in 1975, and only then discovered his little tune had achieved fame here. Apparently nobody had ever bothered to tell him. I have no idea of the copyright status of the music. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:02, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

People who were unknown in life but became famous after death

Van Gogh and also Nietzsche apparently - who else? 78.149.142.179 (talk) 10:59, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but this topic has been deemed non-notable. The Wikipedia punishment squad will be around later to deal with you in the usual manner. --88.109.165.189 (talk) 11:13, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Seriously though, if you can think of a notable topic in this line or thought, consider going over to Wikipedia:Requested_articles. If you're just trying to find more information and need help, try the Wikipedia:Reference Desk. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 11:25, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Yet another example of petty deletionism run riot. Gerard Manley Hopkins. Emily Dickinson. Nick Drake. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 11:27, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that's so much deletionism, but an unrefined topic. It probably could work if the list's criteria was a little more objective. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 11:34, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

One of the list's main editors laid down a perfectly workable set of criteria. Didn't amount to a hill of beans in the deleting admin's decision. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 11:38, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't know about this list in particular, but in general you can't just make up a set of criteria. That's data synthesis. This is why things like "List of Megafauna" was deleted. APL (talk) 12:59, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Some of the creators in the List of works published posthumously, e.g. Emily Dickinson and Wilfred Owen. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 11:31, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Anne Frank. AnonMoos (talk) 13:13, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Philip K. Dick was known only among science fiction fans. Then the movie Blade Runner which came out at about the time of his death made him hot in Hollywood. 195.35.160.133 (talk) 11:48, 8 September 2009 (UTC) Martin.

Not sure whether that qualifies, since he was somewhat well-known among a reasonably broad public... He was not a big seller, but he was much appreciated among some cognoscenti in the field, and he had dozens of books published commercially under his own name. AnonMoos (talk) 13:13, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Dick was alive when someone gave me a book and remarked that it was "typical Dick" as if I ought to know what that meant. ;) —Tamfang (talk) 05:07, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I think that if there is put enough thought in it, the list will be virtually endless. Notable examples include Franz Kafka and William Shakespeare. --Saddhiyama (talk) 13:38, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I concur with Kafka, but Shakespeare was hardly "unknown" in his lifetime - he was a professionally performing actor, prolific playwright and occasional poet who would have been quite familiar to all those in the theatrical profession, many of its aristocratic patrons and most of the London play-going public. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 14:06, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree, but he did go from being only a locally known playwright to becoming recognised as the greatest poet and playwright in the English language (and this recognition only occurred long after his death). --Saddhiyama (talk) 15:28, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

True, but he was about as well-known during his lifetime as any other London-based playwrights contemporary with him. I think that definitively rules him out of the "unknown in life" category. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 17:24, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

John Kennedy Toole, the author of A Confederacy of Dunces, often cited as one of the more influential works of Southern-U.S. literature of the twentieth century would certainly qualify. He committed suicide before publishing a single work; it was only through the efforts of his mother that the book was published. --Jayron32 15:16, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Johann Sebastian Bach's work as a composer was disregarded until a century after his death, when Mendelssohn avidly promoted him. --TammyMoet (talk) 15:47, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Jesus? --Sean 16:10, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Not really -- the available evidence indicates that he was reasonably well-known as an itinerant preacher, wandering miracle-monger and (in the eyes of some) general troublemaker in Judea and Galilee during the last three years of his life... AnonMoos (talk)

No doubt that his fame increased hugely after his death. DJ Clayworth (talk) 18:19, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

My tongue was in-cheek, but on a percentage basis (# who've heard the name before subject's death / # who've heard it after), he is probably hard to beat. --Sean 20:28, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I'd have though Adam would beat Jesus. Admittedly he's less historical. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 23:14, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Mohammed Atta and basically anyone else who became famous after they died, specifically BECAUSE they died. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 16:14, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Gregor Mendel. 213.122.20.81 (talk) 17:01, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

What I really meant was people who had no idea they would be famous after they died. 78.147.7.217 (talk) 21:42, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Mendel fits the bill very well. He wrote down the results of his experiments, just as a hobby, and died with no idea his work would eventually be the kickoff to the 20th century revolution in genetics. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 23:00, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

That's not entirely true, Bugs. To quote his article, "Mendel read his paper, Experiments on Plant Hybridization, at two meetings of the Natural History Society of Brünn in Moravia in 1865 . . . [and it] was published in 1866 in Proceedings of the Natural History Society of Brünn . . ." so he obviously intended that his work should come to the attention of the wider scientific world. Unfortunately, the comparative obscurity of that journal meant that this took until after his death. There's an amusing anecdote that after Charles Darwin died, a copy of the Proceedings was found on his bookshelves - with the pages uncut! However, I don't think this has ever been confirmed as true. (By the way, Bugs, please don't think I'm stalking you! It just seems that we have a number of areas of interest in common.) 87.81.230.195 (talk) 17:40, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Again, people whose works were published posthumously. Various of them requested that their papers be destroyed, and it was only because their relatives disregarded the instructions that we know about them today. This applies to Kafka and Emily Dickinson, for example. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 23:14, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

On a morbid note, a lot of murder victims only become famous after their murder. Exxolon (talk) 01:17, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I would add to the list any of the many successful candidates for the Darwin Award. DOR (HK) (talk) 07:46, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

If the question is what "people who had no idea they would be famous after they died", then Johann Sebastian Bach probably fits the bill even better. During his life he was not really famous for his music compositions, and by his later years his style was rapidly falling out of fashion, regarded as stuffy old-fashioned stuff. A large amount of it was never even published and languished here and there in manuscript form. What fame he did have was mostly for being a great at improvising at the keyboard. Although even there his style had fallen out of fashion, and in those days long long before audio recording one's fame for improvisation was not likely to increase after death! If nothing else, it I think Bach would be amazed to somehow learn how famous he has become. Just one musician among multitudes during his life, whose approach was increasingly irrelevant and dismissed at he got older, to today where his music is ubiquitous and a significant number of pieces familiar to hundreds of millions of people, and widely considered among the top ten greatest composers ever--perhaps in the top three, or, for a large number of people simply the greatest composer period. And ironically the fame he did have in his life, being great at keyboard improv, is basically lost to us today. Pfly (talk) 08:15, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

While not entirely unknown, Bradley Nowell never saw the fame that he would achieve. cheers, 10draftsdeep (talk) 18:51, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

US motivations behind stopping Zahir Shah becoming the Afghan head of state.

What were the US motivations behind stopping former king Zahir Shah becoming the Afghan head of state during the Emergency Loya Jirga in June 2002? ExitRight (talk) 12:38, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't follow Afghan politics closely, so I have to ask: What's the basis of that question? What article discusses it? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?}carrots 12:41, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Not hard to discern. The article linked by ExitRight, in the section headed Return, states "However he was obliged to publicly step aside at the behest of the United States as many of delegates to the Loya Jirga were prepared to vote for Zahir Shah and block the US-backed Hamid Karzai." 87.81.230.195 (talk) 14:00, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Most delegates to the Loya Jirga wanted to install the former afghan king as head of state. I was just wondering why the US was apparently opposed such a plan. ExitRight (talk) 12:48, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, the statement is referenced to a book (in the article it is reference #15), which is:

• Dorronsoro, Gilles. "The Return to Political Fragmentation". Afghanistan: Revolution Unending, 1979-2002. C. Hurst & Co. pp. 330. ISBN 1850656835.

If you want more info on that statement, you should probably find the book in question. --Jayron32 15:10, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

My impression on general motivations in the USA administration at the time is that they could have been very much a matter of having simply not been thought out all that carefully. The simple fact that the man you mention was a former monarch may have played a role along with the fact that Karzai was a well-known entity to the USA ("Our guy"). I don't think you are likely to find an expert on motivations willing to speak so easily on this particular topic, but perhaps you will (It's been a number of years).Julzes (talk) 05:37, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the replies. I've looked up the Dorronsoro reference in google books which says: "The crucial decisions, in particular the choice of Harmid Karzai, had already been taken by the Americans". So it seems that it was simply a case of Karzai being "our guy". Having said that, I think I should perhaps rephrase the main question and ask why the Americans saw Karzai as being more able (at the time) to lead Afghanistan rather than Zahir Shah. ExitRight (talk) 06:51, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Karzai was tight with Zalmay Khalilzad, who was running the show at the time of the LJ. Also, America's slogans about "freedom being on the march" would be awkward while reinstating a monarchy. --Sean 16:42, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Ernest Hemingway Cover Art

Who was the artist that made these two covers for Hemingway's The Sun Also Rises and A Farewell To Arms (http://www.sc.edu/library/spcoll/amlit/hemingway/images/sun1.jpg and http://www.sc.edu/library/spcoll/amlit/hemingway/images/armsusa1.jpg , respectively)?--24.58.152.19 (talk) 16:04, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

The title vignette for The Sun Also Rises seems to be by Cleo Damianakes ---Sluzzelin talk 16:26, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Both dustcovers seem to carry the work of Cleo Damianakes (sometimes referred to as Cleonike Damianakes, sometimes as Cleo Wilkins) [4]. ---Sluzzelin talk 16:36, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Who is the author of the bible?

For cataloging purposes it might sometimes be meaningful to have one. Which is the most common choice? God? Saint X? Multiple authors? Unknown? Mr.K. (talk) 16:13, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

"Multiple authors." See Authors of the Bible. There are many books in the Bible. Even under "traditional"/mythical understandings of the authors (e.g. Moses writing all of the Old Testament, which seems wrong), there are multiple authors. The best you can do on the "God" argument is that they were "inspired" by God, but that's somewhat different from saying "God wrote it". --98.217.14.211 (talk) 16:33, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Nobody argues that Moses wrote the entire Old Testament; it's only the Torah that you're thinking of. My MLA Handbook says to treat it as an anonymous work and alphabetise by the name of the translation. For example, if you're citing the New Jerusalem Bible in MLA format, you'd give the following:

The New Jerusalem Bible. Henry Wansbrough, gen. ed. New York: Doubleday, 1985.

Remember that "The" doesn't get alphabetised; to continue the example from the MLA Handbook, you'd alphabetise it between something written by Edith Nesbit and the book Octovian. Nyttend (talk) 16:53, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, when you're Cataloging a work, you really only need a title for the MARC record. And then, if there's no author in a 1xx field, you make what's called a "Uniform title main entry" in the 130 field. See [5] for more info on MARC fields. Makeemlighter (talk) 16:54, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Also, [6] talks more about uniform titles. Makeemlighter (talk) 16:56, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

The Torah wasn't entirely written by Moses, given that it describes his own death. In fact, the Old Testament is a patchwork quilt of various stories written down, including two different (and contradictory) creation stories. Some of the stories refer to God as "YHWH" and some as "Elohim", hence the expression "Yahwists" and "Eloists" to describe different anonymous authors (including those two contradictory creation stories). The New Testament is much shorter and rather easier to attribute, since most of the entries have an author's name attached to them (even if the author is a pseudonym, as with the Revelation to John). The Bible is typically regarded as being "inspired" by God, not being the literal "word of God" except where it says so. If you start talking about the Quran, though, you get into a touchy area, as Muslims believe that the Quran is actually the word of God being spoken to Muhammad, who simply wrote it down. That's another story. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 17:10, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Conservative Christians basically see it as the writers being supernaturally inspired to write what God felt important to relate, while maintaining their own individual styles and character - the way they used words, their experience, etc.. That's roughly what I remember as the description from seminary. So, just "multiple authors" should work. The total is about 40 for the whole Bible, counting all the prophets, etc..Somebody or his brother (talk) 19:50, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I have never read of or met anyone who claimed that God "wrote" the entire Bible. Conservatives would say it had many authors, each divinely inspired. Others might say that it had many authors, who are not the people credited with the various books, not divinely inspired, and who wrote or revised the books for various secular purposes. Edison (talk) 03:06, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I've always heard it as "divinely inspired", which is kind of a disclaimer for when obvious contradictions arise, because obviously God wouldn't make such mistakes unless He's a little careless at proofreading. But those so inspired, might have mis-heard something. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 13:01, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I imagine the theological view on that is that God, being omnipotent, can cause his normally fallible listeners to have perfect hearing and perfect memory, for the things He's directly imparting to them. -- JackofOz (talk) 19:49, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Which doesn't explain how the gospels manage to disagree on nitpicky little details like the names of the disciples and when Jesus was crucified relative to Pesach. Oh, and how there are two different, and contradictory, creation stories. Well, it's the thought that counts, ya know? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 23:50, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:57, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

The meaning of "divinely inspired" is that the human authors of the text were guided by God so that they wrote what God wanted them to write and without error: for example, we who believe in actual divine inspiration believe that the four evangelists each wrote in their own styles, but with God's guidance. This means that we believe there to be an explanation for seeming contradictions, such as the question of Nathanael vs. Bartholomew for the disciple's name, which I believe to be a matter of being his given name vs. the original for son-of-Tholomew. "Divine inspiration" teaches that the entire Bible is the word of God and thus equally without error: it's not a matter of "not God's word, just divinely inspired". Nyttend (talk) 02:59, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Which still doesn't explain the two contradictory creation stories, for example; or the confusion over whether Jonah was swallowed by a whale or a fish, for another example. This is in contrast with the Ten Commandments, which are presented as God talking directly to Moses, in the first person. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 03:13, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Gay and lesbian studies

My first thought was, do you have to study to be gay or lesbian? However, I want to know what kind of people study it? What is the purpose of it? And specially, I would like to know if universities should teach really any topic?--Mr.K. (talk) 16:16, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Have you read the article on Queer studies and followed its links yet? ---Sluzzelin talk 16:38, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Read our article on Queer studies if you really don't know what it is. All sorts of people study it (people of all sexualities, if you are wondering). It has nothing to do with studying to be gay or lesbian, obviously.

Universities don't teach "really any topic"—there are a limited number of things that are taught in universities, and the determination of what becomes a valid university discipline is complicated and based on quite a lot of factors. The simple version is that if enough academics decide something is a separate field, and can get university administrators to back them, then it suddenly is one. If university administrators decide something is no longer something they want to support, they can eliminate it. Determination of whether something is "valid" is based on a lot of things, including but not limited to its reputation in the wider academy, whether it can generate revenue (in terms of donations in many cases), whether students want to study it, etc. It is, generally speaking, harder to create new disciplines than those outside of the academy perceive it to be, mostly because those outside of the academy aren't used to seeing any of them and it looks like they are being created all the time. In practice, it's a very long process—it can take decades for a new academic discipline to emerge and be given independent space at a university, especially in the humanities (in the sciences, the money comes a bit easier, and with money comes clout). --98.217.14.211 (talk) 16:41, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

The purpose is the same as any of the cultural studies, ethnic studies, and gender studies, such as women's studies, men's studies, African American studies, Asian American studies, Native American studies, Chicano studies/Latino studies, Jewish studies, Slavic studies, American studies, Celtic studies, etc. Gay and lesbians form a recognizable and distinct group within the general population, which has distinct cultural traits. Anthropologists, sociologists, and historians want to study these cultural traits (as they wish to study the traits of all cultural groups), and use the term "gay and lesbian studies" (or similar) to label the study of this group and their culture. The purpose, as with all anthropological/sociological/historical inquiry, is to figure out what makes us tick as human beings. In their idealized form, universities are devoted to the pursuit of knowledge in all forms, and so should offer the class (as a pursuit of knowledge) as long as there are people willing to teach it, and students willing to be taught it. -- 128.104.112.179 (talk) 22:19, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

As a post-script, your initial impression embodies a rather common misconception of universities. Universities aren't trade schools - they don't exist to teach "how-to"; they exist more to teach "what-is" - the scholarly/academic pursuits of inquiry, rather than practical "how-to" aspects. (They do teach a lot of "how-to"s, but primarily in the context of techniques which are useful for furthering your academic inquiry, rather than a practical end unto themselves.) -- 128.104.112.179 (talk) 22:26, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Reminds me of Woody Allen's joke in Bananas: he regrets dropping out of college, since his major was Black Studies, and if hadn't dropped out, he would have been black by now. —Kevin Myers 01:54, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Here's a list of courses from the LGBT studies program at the University of Maryland, to give you a general idea: [7] -Elmer Clark (talk) 02:09, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Enrolling in "Gay and lesbian studies" to learn how to be gay or lesbian makes as much sense as the bathroom grafitti exchange I one saw "A:My mother made me a homosexual." "B:If I buy her the yarn, will she make me one?" Edison (talk) 03:01, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

It's not the function of the Reference Desk to determine what universities should teach; and you seem to be labouring under a misapprehension about what LGBT Studies courses do teach. AlexTiefling (talk) 12:04, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Certainly, it is not the task of the RD to know what universities should teach. But, are there any rules to exclude certain kinds of studies? Could you make a degree about tree leaves and call it "Tree leaves studies"? 80.58.205.37 (talk) 11:04, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

This aspect of university life is often mis-reported for dramatic effect. Generally speaking, universities only directly offer degrees in a limited range of subjects. (A large number of combinations may be possible in some cases, such as joint or combined honours degrees in British universities, where the degree is in 'Subject 1 with/and Subject 2' - e.g. 'Biology and Sports Science'.) The distorting factors are: 1) it's often reported that a degree is available 'in' a particular topic that is in fact only the subject of a single course unit - about one quarter of the curriculum for one semester, potentially. So a university may decide to teach one unit about some comparatively trivial or pop-cultural topic, in the context of a wider and more serious degree, and see it reported wrongly that the whole degree is in the pop-culture topic. 2) If you take a PhD/DPhil, your degree is 'in' the specific, detailed subject of your studies and thesis. So if you're a physicist, and you do a PhD about the effect of infra-red lasers on beryllium salt crystals, your PhD will be in 'The effect of IR lasers on beryllium salts' rather than just in physics. AlexTiefling (talk) 12:14, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Is lying ever mandatory?

Is there ever a legal duty to lie? Not asking for legal advice, just interested in your creative answers.--92.230.69.67 (talk) 18:38, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

People who work as intelligence agency operatives are often given "cover jobs" (Valerie Plame's article mentions she had one), and in some cases admitting or disclosing intelligence agencies' mere existence is a crime (as was formerly the case for the UK's Secret Intelligence Service, whose employees all simply said they worked in some dull capacity to do with the export of paperclips at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office). Whether that's formally just a legal requirement not to tell the truth, or a requirement to actively lie, you decide. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 18:59, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Clandestine HUMINT operational techniques may be of interest; it's very hard to find a decent ref for you with Google, as all I can find are ads for people to do maternity cover. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 19:04, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

It likely depends on if you believe "lying by omission" is lying. There is frequently a duty for people to keep things secret - even to the point where they can't even acknowledge that they know the secret. When asked direct questions on the subject, they would be required to avoid answering. In a sense, that is lying because it isn't telling "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" (those three phrases aren't redundant - each is addressing slightly different aspects). -- 128.104.112.179 (talk) 21:59, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Have you ever seen the film Apocalypse Now?

Colonel Lucas: Your report specifies intelligence, counter-intelligence, with ComSec I-Corps.

Willard: I'm not presently disposed to discuss these operations, sir.

Colonel Lucas: Did you not work for the CIA in I-Corps?

Willard: No, sir.

Colonel Lucas: Did you not assassinate a government tax collector in Quang Tri province, June 19th, 1968?... Captain?

Willard: Sir, I am unaware of any such activity or operation - nor would I be disposed to discuss such an operation if it did in fact exist, sir.

--Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 22:15, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

UK Cabinet Secretary, Sir Robert Armstrong, used a useful phrase during the Australian 'Spycatcher' trial in 1986.

Lawyer: What is the difference between a misleading impression and a lie?

Armstrong: A lie is a straight untruth.

Lawyer: What is a misleading impression - a sort of bent untruth?

Armstrong: As one person said, it is perhaps being "economical with the truth".

--Phil Holmes (talk) 14:52, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Bureaucracy and "Bureaucratise"

I work for an agency that is very (and I mean very!) bureaucratic. Can anyone recommend books or articles on "how to speak like a bureaucrat" or even understand "bureaucratise?" I checked the archives but didn't find anything (maybe there is a form to fill out - in triplicate)!

Do you mean bureaucratese? I can think of a few places to learn about this, but most of them are about mocking it or getting people to stop. 169.231.32.17 (talk) 20:44, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Terms like "bureaucratese" or "legalese" or "corporate speak" generally are always used derisively to describe the sort of vacuous, meaningless language used by certain groups of people (like bureaucrats and lawyers and managers) who want to sound like they are saying something important, but really have little meaningful content in their speech. The Wikipedia article Buzzword actually describes the phenomenon well. All of these modes of speech, and especially political speech, are about using lots of words while actually saying as little as possible. --Jayron32 20:54, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, jargon is often very specific to a particular group. Wikipedia has plenty of unique jargon - for example, "POV" to mean (roughly) "biased". I think the best way to learn it is by being immersed in it and learning as you go along. --Tango (talk) 21:37, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Start with Business speak and Legal writing, and remember that Plain English is usually preferable. BrainyBabe (talk) 21:40, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps the idea you're after is covered by Doublespeak? Also this site and looking at transcripts of Alan Greenspan, who was quite a master at saying a lot of nothing. 131.191.87.100 (talk) 20:59, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Countries in Africa without two term limits

Which eight countries is ones without two term limits for national leaders rule. Will they eventually have two-term limits for natioal leaders?--209.129.85.4 (talk) 20:33, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

It seems strange to me that you apparently know there are eight, but do not know which ones. I suggest you consult whatever source told you there were eight. You can also choose some likely countries and consult their articles in Wikipedia.

As for what they will eventually do, Wikipedia is nota crystal ball. --ColinFine (talk) 23:34, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

"National leader" is an imprecise term. Do you mean the Head of state or the Head of government? --Pykk (talk) 00:08, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

ex. of Paul Kagame and Joseph Kabila. Do Rwanda and DR Congo have two term limit for prsidency?--209.129.85.4 (talk) 19:44, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

This said 8 country in Africa with out two term limit. Senegal just had it. Abdoulaye Wade will be affect after 2012 election. Armando Guebuza's last term expirs after 2014.--209.129.85.4 (talk) 19:48, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

John Agyekum Kufuor unfortunately have expir his two terms, 2000, 2004, 2008 and have to terminate his power to 2008 giving it to John Atta Mills. yoweri Museveni is lucky, voters can contest the two-term limits to eliminate it. I wish Ghana have eliminate the two term limit, so John Kufuor could've ran for 2009 elections.--209.129.85.4 (talk) 19:54, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Rwanda and Ziare

Do Rwanda and DR Congo have two term limit rule for leaders yet? If not will they eventually have them? how often is the elections at those countries?--209.129.85.4 (talk) 20:35, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

British/German Meetings in Finland in WW2

I'm engaged in a debate over whether British and German troops (governmentally assisted, though probably volunteers) could reasonably have or actually manifestly did fight alongside of each other in Finland during either the Finnish Winter War of 1939-40 or early in its Continuation War. One person with a mixed-quality memory claims he read it in something by Simon Sebag Montefiore. His original claim of 1941 has been laughed away, but I'm thinking that it's more likely if it is laughable that Montefiore did some careless work here (perhaps repeating Soviet propaganda). Please, if anybody has collected Montefiore's work, could he or she find the closest thing to this statement?Julzes (talk) 22:48, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Correction: If it was Montefiore, it was in a journal article not a book, and it may not have been Montefiore. Therefore the question is a straightforward historical one: Did German and British troops (not a rare few and not a large contingent either) fight alongside each other in Finland? The answer seems to be No, but it isn't totally settled. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Julzes (talk • contribs) 23:28, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

According to Foreign volunteers in the Winter War, the Finns did not accept Germans, and the German government forbade it as well, being allied to the Soviet Union at the time. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:51, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

British volunteers apparently joined Detachment Sisu, which did not see any combat. However, the same article also states "There were still some British volunteers in Finland in 1941 when Finland was again in war with the Soviet Union. This time there were German troops stationed in the northern part of Finland and some of the former British volunteers were employed by their embassy to monitor German troop movements." Clarityfiend (talk) 23:58, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

So far none of this is actually new to the debate. Well, if anybody is in a good position to dig into this and interested, the source of the claim *sounds pretty good to me*, so sourcing the initial propaganda and knowing where it turns up in Western reports would be interesting. I'm inclined to give up on it as possible historical fact and look on it as Soviet propaganda.Julzes (talk) 00:35, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

It makes as much sense as an episode I saw of a 1960's US TV WW2 series about the desert war in which US and German soldiers combined forces to fight Muslim forces, somewhere in the desert. Having stood off the insurgents, they nodded and went their separate ways. Edison (talk) 02:57, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, the general plausibility is not in question with me, but so far I've seen nothing but evidence to the contrary aside from the gentleman-in-question's memory of having been taught it and then having read about it later. I'm led to conclude that some Soviet propaganda is all there is to it ultimately, and that could lead back to individual Soviet fighters who fought both Germans and Brits at different times. It's an interesting question: What's the ultimate provenance?Julzes (talk) 04:38, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

September 9

staggering consuls

Has any state had a chief executive consisting of two or more persons with staggered terms? The Roman Republic had its two consuls but they were elected together. —Tamfang (talk) 05:09, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

There aren't many countries with multiple equivalent heads of state. The best example I can think of is the Swiss Federal Council, which is a seven-member body which acts collectively as the Head of State of Switzerland; but they are elected together every 4 years. Some states have a split Head of State/Head of Government roles, each with differing responsibilities (i.e. a President and a Prime Minister); however these roles are not really the same as two or more people equally part of the Head of State role. Both the United Arab Emirates and Malaysia have rather interesting arrangements for their Heads of State. In each case, the head of state is elected from among the Monarchs of the constituent states of the nation. Still, in those cases there is still a single Head of State representing the whole confederation; though they are elected from among a group of Heads of State of the constituent states. An interesting idea, but I am not sure any state actually used that system. --Jayron32 05:20, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

The head of state of Malaysia isn't elected but is rotated in an historical order.
Sleigh (talk) 23:52, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Ancient Sparta traditionally had two kings; it seems logical that their reigns would be staggered, though not by design. Rhinoracer (talk) 09:24, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

San Marino continues the tradition of the Roman Republic in that it has two heads of state: the Captains Regent. They are, however, also elected together. 80.123.210.172 (talk) 10:15, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Possibly Tanistry is somewhat close to this idea? Best, WikiJedits (talk) 10:46, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Co-Princes of Andorra? Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 16:56, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Good idea. 80.123.210.172 (talk) 17:28, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Andorra doesn't really fit the staggered terms either. Terms implies a finite, definable term. One of the co-princes DOES have a finite, definable term (the President of France) but this is due to coincidence, not design. The role of the King of France in Andorra descended to the office of President. The other co-prince, the Bishop of Urgel is appointed to his See like any other Roman Catholic bishop, and does not serve a fixed term. --Jayron32 18:03, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Depending on what the OP wanted, yes I can see that a fixed term may be a requirement. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 18:31, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

insurance

1.what are the individual methods of providing indemnity? 2.explain limitations of indemnity. 3.what are the challenges facing insurance industry in Kenya? 4.explain insurance underwriting claims & its process.sources of information to underwriters.Solit (talk) 06:42, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

These homework questions can't be answered for you here.--Wetman (talk) 07:28, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

True, but we can link to some resources that may be useful. See Life table, Mortality rate and Morbidity rate etc. See Medical underwriting,Life Insurance and also Indemnity. ALl these (and the related links/references) should be able to help. As for question 3 - Kenya may have problems that make insurance difficult if there is limited business-trust/enforced regulation. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 10:19, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Referencing

I read somewhere that some hundreds of years ago, an Author attempted to collate books that have ever been written.However, I have forgotten the name of the Author and the title of his work [I think it was something like 'bibliotheque universalis']. Kindly help me, I am really interested in how many books were in existence or were published between 1000BCE and 1500CE. Mark Inyangetuk, National Broadcasting Commission, Abuja - Nigeria. 41.222.209.2 (talk) 13:13, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

There was Conrad Gesner's 16th century Bibliotheca universalis. ---Sluzzelin talk 13:19, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

That's it. But remember that many more books were lost in the cultural bottleneck of Late Antiquity than were retained. Encyclopedias, abridgements, epitomes did them in. A good head count of titles only begins with printing: incunabula are well catalogued.--Wetman (talk) 13:25, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, of course that is very true. I didn't find any estimates of how many works were in existence at a certain time before printing. Some more articles you might like to read, Mark: Callimachus's Pinakes, and the article on Johann Albert Fabricius. I didn't find an article on the history of bibliography on Wikipedia---Sluzzelin talk 13:28, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Also, any discussion regarding the numbers of books from antiquity to exist will eventually lead to the Library of Alexandria, so I may as well point you there to beat the rush. :-). The OP may also want to check out Great libraries of the ancient world and follow some of the links there. Matt Deres (talk) 17:38, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like the Siku Quanshu, though I very much doubt that's what you were referring to. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 01:40, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Nineteenth-century artists

Nineteenth century artists promoted the medieval view of momankind as the seducer and destroyer of mankind explain this view —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darlenelangley (talk • contribs) 18:28, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Please do your own homework.

Welcome to the Wikipedia Reference Desk. Your question appears to be a homework question. I apologize if this is a misinterpretation, but it is our aim here not to do people's homework for them, but to merely aid them in doing it themselves. Letting someone else do your homework does not help you learn nearly as much as doing it yourself. Please attempt to solve the problem or answer the question yourself first. If you need help with a specific part of your homework, feel free to tell us where you are stuck and ask for help. If you need help grasping the concept of a problem, by all means let us know.

Has someone been telling you something negative about Moominkind? -- AnonMoos (talk) 00:40, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Moomins are the destroyer of mankind! Those creatures terrified me as a child. -- EA Swyer ^Talk _{Contributions} 01:04, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Role of mistresses in royalty

So, watching an episode of Doctor Who has had me thinking about Madame de Pompadour and various other mistresses of royalty and more specifically, kings. And also, the queens. I'm looking for "a day in the life of" sort of stuff here. Would the king sleep in his own room with the mistress? Or in her apartment/room? Or would he be alone? During the day, would he spend his free time with both women (same time or separate)? What about heirs? Would he only have sex with the queen enough to get her pregnant? According to our article, Louis XV of France had 11 kids by his wife but he also had a large number of mistresses, so this has me just a little confused. Were the mistresses looked down upon by anyone? I don't suspect so since M. de Pompadour seems to have had so much influence. I've never been one to care about royalty but the social/marital arrangement has me curious. If you'd like to base your responses around Louis and M. de Pompadour, that's fine since they're the ones who inspired the questions. Thanks, Dismas|^(talk) 21:17, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

With regard to sleeping arrangements, the king, the queen, and each of the (principal) mistresses would generally have their own bedchambers, antechambers, dressing rooms, and possible sitting rooms too, separate from the State Rooms where the royal marriage bed (or the lit de justice or some other ceremonial bed) might be. People would come and go in the night more or less as they pleased. It was fairly common knowledge at court when (for example) Charles II was sleeping with the Duchess of Portsmouth, and when with Nell Gwyn or Hortense Mancini - and equally common knowledge that he very rarely slept with his wife, Catherine of Braganza. John Evelyn reported that only a few days before his death, Charles was up and about in the day time with several of his mistresses in attendance. This would tend to indicate that kings kept social company with their mistresses quite openly.

Similarly, when Marie Antoinette arrived at Versailles, she was appalled at the favour shown to Louis XV's mistresses; she had been raised at the strictly Catholic court of Maria Theresa, who disapproved fiercely of such things. So, to answer another of your questions, the queen and the wife of the heir apparent might reasonably look down on mistresses, no matter elevated those mistresses were. (And I recall from the same source - Antonia Fraser's book on Marie Antoinette]] - that the king, queen, and principal mistresses all dined together, at least some of the time.) Some monarchs (like James I) only seem to have slept with their wives enough to produce 'an heir and a spare', while others (like Louis XVI and Carlos II) tried for a long time without success. (Louis eventually had an operation and reproduced; Carlos got through two wives without success.)

According to Wikipedia, Louis XVI probably did not have an operation; he just needed to be told how to have sex properly. --Anonymous, 23:45 UTC, '09/09/09.

(Oh, and 'M. de Pompadour' would be a man's title. The usual shorthand is 'Mme de Pompadour'.) AlexTiefling (talk) 21:40, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

It differed from king to king and era to era, according to the individuals and mores of the time. Since royal or noble marriages were generally dynastic, they were not always successful or fulfilling. George IV hated his wife and pretty much banished her; he lived with Mrs Fitzherbert instead, who was a companion as well as sexual partner. He had other mistresses from time to time, as well. We have a rather poor Royal mistress article, plus maîtresse-en-titre, a semi-official position as mistress to kings of France who, apparently, were given their own apartments. Gwinva (talk) 22:32, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

And of course, the position of "maîtresse-en-titre" gave rise to the phenomenon of the king "cheating" on his official mistress by having a clandestine affair with an unofficial mistress (something that Louis XIV seems to have been fond of)... AnonMoos (talk) 22:23, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

One point to remember is that medieval castles, and palaces for centuries afterwards, had no corridors. To get from A to B you had to walk through rooms in which anything might be going on, from political intrigues to defecation (hm, not so far, then). Some rooms had privacy (chambers, closets, and cabinets -- all words with alternate definitions), but many did not. The beds had four posters and nice thick curtains. BrainyBabe (talk) 21:04, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

True, but the more private rooms would be behind the more public ones. You would have to walk through someone's personal sitting room to reach their bedroom and through that to reach their closet. You wouldn't walk through someone else's bedroom unless you were doing something involving that person. Well, that is true for people with their own apartments. Servants' rooms would be different, as might rooms for junior members of the court (ladies in waiting, that kind of thing). If you go back to Saxon castles, I believe it was common for many members of the court to sleep in the Great Hall. --Tango (talk) 23:08, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. I can think of pre-Georgian country houses in England -- I know, not Versailles, but germane to the general discussion -- where massive curtained beds sit in rooms with doors connecting them to other rooms, on a wing with no corridors. Think of Hertford House, as well. As for much earlier times, the men who pledged loyalty to Beowulf slept in the hall, on the floor, amidst the rushes and the straw, along with their hunting dogs. BrainyBabe (talk) 20:14, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Birth certificates and surnames in the US

I'm thinking specifically of US law here. I don't own any rug rats, so I'm not familiar with the process of filling out birth certificates. When a baby is born, and the birth cert. is filled out, do the parents have the option of giving the kid a different surname than either of the parents? If the parents have a long and ethnic sounding name, can they elect to have their child named Jones, or Smith, or even Doe? Dismas|^(talk) 21:22, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

this is governed by state law, so there's going to be at least 50 different answers. The variables are going to be things like: are parents married? if not, does the father acknowledge paternity? etc. In Louisiana, for example: If married, or divorced for less than 300 days, the father's surname must be used for the child unless an Acknowledgment of Paternity Affidavit is signed by the biological father, the legal father and the mother, in which case the child is given the biological father's surname, or a hyphenated mother-bio father surname (in either order). If the mother is unmarried, the mother's surname must be used for the child, unless the natural father is known (and has acknowledge the child or subsequently married the mother or has been judicially deemed the father) .There is provision for changing the surname based on DNA evidence, within certain time limits. So there may be places where any surname can be used, but there are also places where the choice of surnames at birth is closely regulated. - Nunh-huh 22:11, 9 September 2009 (UTC) P.S. In general, there's no problem adopting another name or getting it changed judicially as an adult, as long as the intent is not to defraud. So as an adult Gino Geanakopoulous-Huntington-Osterman-Smythe-Termagant could become Gino Ghost with little problem. - Nunh-huh 22:13, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. See Chad Ochocinco for a recent famous case of a famous American changing his name. The principle of "self-determination" holds that you can call yourself anything you want, and have the right to that name to be legally recognized as well. --Jayron32 01:45, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you but I wasn't asking about adults changing their names. I was looking specifically about what goes on the birth cert. at birth. Thanks, Nunh-huh for your response. I should have figured that it would differ from state to state... Dismas|^(talk) 01:50, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Just some OR, but I know personally one family who gave their kids a unique surname, using the first syllable of the father's name and the second syllable of the mother's name (just as one word, not hyphenated). — Michael J 21:04, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

"Cbtfcbmm Cvft"[sic] (Languages vs. dialect, round 3)

Just to follow up on the discussion:

@Nil: I am not missing the point. There is a clearcut line between a language and a dialect even when they are part of the same continuum. You can clearly say A is a dialect while B is a language since there's a way you can draw a clear line between a two, even if you can say English and Malay are languages and clearly not dialects of each other: That is called mutual intelligibility. The idea you don't have, is that a language is a category, so a dialect is different, whereas a language composes dialects. You can say there's clearly a difference between light and dark but you can't and you can divide all shades into either light or dark by using saturation. If the gray is less than 50% black, then it's light, if it's more than 50% black, then it's dark, magic, as it seems.174.3.110.93 (talk) 21:52, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

You haven't said where this clearcut line goes, though, unless you mean to say that it should go halfway, that is, at the 50% mark: but for this to be workable, you would need a system of measuring the percentage of mutual intelligibility. Like Nil said, "If you have a way of accurately and consistently measuring you can perhaps put everything into a category..." 81.131.0.113 (talk) 00:31, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, none of us are novel to language. You can tell if something someone says is something you can understand. If you were to take that principle, and say "50% of that I don't understand", then you would say that is a language.174.3.110.93 (talk) 00:41, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but this is a line of demarcation which is different from person to person. Some kind of survey could be performed to find an average, but how do you decide which group of people should participate in the survey? Speakers of the same language? That is unfortunately circular, since whether they are speakers of the same language or not is what we are trying to establish in the first place. ...You could determine whether any two individuals speak the same language by this method, yes, although it is an arbitrary definition which may go against established habits, that is to say, you may find you redefine things that we currently call dialects as languages by this method. ...It all reminds me of gestalt psychology, specifically the section "Prägnanz" which is to do with deciding what is a distinct set and what isn't. 81.131.0.113 (talk) 00:58, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, a random sampling of people would be how you would determine intelegiblity.174.3.110.93 (talk) 02:57, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

@OP: I wonder if you have lived through the problem of classification of Chinese? It's a more-or-less unified written language and possibly five or more distinct spoken languages or dialects. The first-level divisions of Chinese might be "languages" by the standard of intelligibility. But intelligibility is a matter of degree, and in the borderlands between the first-level divisions, at least, the lines are often quite blurred. How unintelliglbe does it have to be before it's classified as a separate language? It's often not so clear-cut. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 01:44, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

By the time it gets to the borderline, it would be a language continuum. I guess then that Chinese languages are continuic.174.3.110.93 (talk) 02:57, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I still can't find the question we are being asked to answer. This appears to be a discussion that belongs elsewhere. // BL \\ (talk) 02:30, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

What happened is that the discussion was over before I could continue contributing. Wiki law states that you can not move archived questions back on to the reference desk.174.3.110.93 (talk) 02:57, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Then shouldn't this just be added to the intial question? It is without any context here and appears to be just a series of opinions. 03:47, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I did link to the original question; it's right up there in the bluelink.174.3.110.93 (talk) 04:24, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Ideally yes, particularly since the OP seems primarily interested in my reply. If the OP had wanted my response they could have asked on my talk page and I likely would have responded (as mentioned below, I won't anymore after this). At least the OP should provide links back to both questions Nil Einne (talk) 17:37, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

The borderline of course is part of the problem. With light and dark, you can perhaps if you want to create an artificial definition between the two where less then 50% saturation is light and 50% or more is dark. However that is a completely artificial construct which is basically meaningless except for the human need to create categories. It's clearly nonsensical to say that 49.999(infinity minus 1)% is light and 50% exactly is dark and so is 0% light and 100% dark. (In other words 0% and 49.999(infinity minus 1)% light; 50% and 100% dark.) In fact if we look at it scientifically it gets even more complicated. It's unlikely you can measure things that precisely, so in practice you're going to end up with greys that are sometimes light sometimes dark. (Or better, colours who's margin of error falls within both light and dark.) In fact it gets even more complicated when we start to think about what we're actually talking about. What is 100% saturation? I presume we are talking about reflected light here so do you mean something which absorbs all light? What wavelengths? Anyway this is getting a bit OT so back to the original issue. Languages don't tend to have as much continuonity as shades of grey but there's still some. And the same with the shades issue, if you say something is a dialect because it falls within the borderline of your arbitrary definition as is something else very far from the borderline then something else which falls on the otherside of your borderline are languages the same with something very far from the borderline you should hopefully start to realise the limitations of your approach. (You also get the same problem where something falls within both because of the confidence interval of your 'measurement'.) PalaceGuard has mentioned some of the problems with Chinese (which as I mentioned is also I think shared with Malay and Indonesian albeit to a lesser extent and in a different way) which I thought I hinted at in my previous points. To use an example, if you have 3 different languages/dialect it seems to be easily possible that X might be somewhat (over 50%, whatever that means) mutually intelligible with Y and Y with Z, but X barely with Z. Does this mean X and Z are seperate languages but dialects of Y? How does that work? In fact, I doubt languages fall in two dimensions anyway. If you have 4 languages/dialects maybe A and C are somewhat mutually intelligibility to B but not each other (similar to XZ-Y). You may think of A and B as opposite ends of C. But what if D is somewhat mutually intelligible to C but not A and B? Or alternative if D is somewhat mutually intelligible to A and B but not C?

P.S. I'm not sure if you entirely appreciate the difficulty of actually measuring what you're discussing. How do these people you randomly sample determine intelligibility? How can you come up with a consistent way? Person A's idea of what is mutually intelligible will be different from person B. There could easily be a difference in what people's idea of mutually intelligible that varies from location to location and from language/dialect to language/dialect? What sort of conversations do you use in determining intelligibility? How do you choose your speakers? How do you 'randomly sample'? I mentioned the Kelantanese dialect. While Kelantan is a state in Malaysia, I doubt follows the border exactly so you're going to have problems choosing the people who use your chosen test language/dialect. And as has been mentioned, it's likely their version will vary from other people who you've also arbitrarily decided speak the same dialect/language. And what about the fact that some of your sample population has more exposure to it or similar dialects then others? (In other words, their opinions are going to depend on their experience with other dialects/languages rather then just the dialects/languages your trying to test. These are some of the many issues which make considering such a test pointless IMHO.

Nil Einne (talk) 17:32, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I did link to the original question.174.3.110.93 (talk) 04:24, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Ok, a lot of your arguments are based on speculation.

Let's examine them one by one.

First, you may be confusing that I take languages and dialects as varieties that on the same intelligibilty level, or taxon, if you will.

Let's take English. When one refers to English, they are actually referring to Englishs that people understand to a degree with out losing the idea-behind-the-words. Some people use British spelling while others use American spelling; ironically, we can both understand these Englishs. Even though these are dialects. Another example is I would recommend you take a look at some earlyScots writings. It's like in the history of scots article or something. I could still read what they are talking about.

The other problem is that may be you think that I think of language, or linguistics (or language in the linguistic sense), like a number line. No. I don't believe language is like that. I believe language is like a tree, or like in biology, the tree of life. Languages branches off one another and twigs branch off of those. So no, I do not realize the limitations of my approach.

Second, the confidence interval of your 'measurement'? I have no confidence interval of my measurement. There is no estimation in "my" method. You do it until you get the percentage, or an estimation of that percentage. And no, this is not physics, you can not calculate a margin of error.

Third, using your example: X and Z could very possibly be separate languages, as well as Y. There is a linguistic phenomenon where vocabulary can be extremely similar, but languages are defiantly not related. A somewhat good example, but not very good, is Korean and Chinese (and I suspsect Mandarin, but the articles does not state). Korean shares 60% of it's vocabulary with Chinese, or rather, Korean vocabulary is 60% Chinese. Genetic linguistics has establish that Korean (the Korean spoken during Silla period) was definitely related to the Japanese spoken at the same time. Presently there is a debate where these are language isolates, or if Japanese and Korean constitute a language family. And just to keep on track, Chinese is not included.

Fourth: "If you have 4 languages/dialects maybe A and C are somewhat mutually intelligibility to B but not each other (similar to XZ-Y). You may think of A and B as opposite ends of C." Did you mean "You may think of A and C as opposite ends of B."?

(This fourth) (Your) situation is what is found in a lot of language continua. Germany is the best example. I think we haven't done enough research in this area, but in some valleys of germany, people can not understand the german spoken in the next valley.

For you postscript, I don't think anyone, would just go to a country and start asking people questions about language. I am almost completely certain that preparation, specifically research work, goes into a "grammer book" of a language before jumping in to this foreign territory and madly stenographing the target language.

The people that I'm randomly sampling are not the people who determine intelligibility. I almost think you are arguing for the sake of arguing. How do you choose your speakers? I choose them by randomly sampling them. How do you 'randomly sample'? I pick names out of a hat.

Your last argument hinges on the fact that having exposure to different dialects and languages will affect how they speak the language-to-be-tested. Let's take English. If we were to apply the same test to a random sampling of English speakers, the english would be uniform, and if it was not uniform it would not be very intelligible. Actually, no, it wouldn't be intelligible, or that all the other randomly sampled testsubjects will define the nonconformist as the, TBH, non English.174.3.110.93 (talk) 07:14, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

The original question was why Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian are called languages when the term dialects would be more apropriate from a scientific point of view. TomorrowTime (talk) 06:08, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the context, TomorrowTime. It remains a discussion where the OP appears to be more interested in airing his/her views than in getting an answer. Any answer might be best found on the Language Desk. // BL \\ (talk) 15:54, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

For future reference, the original question was Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2009 July 15#A Question That Requires Language Deskers Too followed up by Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2009 July 24#Nil Ellien which the OP linked to. I'm actually surprised I keep seeing these, since I don't check out the RDH all the time but I guess I do check it enough that it isn't that improbable. In any case, I agree the OP seems to be fixed in their view so these two will be my last replies to the question Nil Einne (talk) 17:32, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

A language is a dialect with an army and a navy. There really is no other answer. --Tango (talk) 23:13, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Being cute definitely has it's merits.

The answer is linguistic, mutual intellgeabitly.174.3.110.93 (talk) 04:27, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

No, the answer is political. Spanish and Portuguese are mutually intelligible to a large extent, but nobody doubts that they are separate languages. That is because of the political influence of those Spain and Portugal at relevant points in history. --Tango (talk) 14:41, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

No, actually the lexicon is shared by a large percentage, but the phonology is not mutually intelligible. And you admit it yourself. That criterion is political and not linguistic.174.3.110.93 (talk) 23:27, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it's rather notorious that Portuguese speakers generally find it easier to understand Spanish speech than Spanish speakers do with Portuguese speech, so there's a one-way intellegibility factor (not just mutual intelligibility)... AnonMoos (talk) 06:40, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Ok, maybe i should say intelligiblity, or linguistic intelligibility, or linguistic-intelligibility, or linguisticintelligibility.174.3.110.93 (talk) 07:30, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

September 10

Obama speech comparison

It has been touted as propaganda but how does it really compare to the scene in Wall-E (~ 40 minutes, 40 seconds) where the classroom of babies is being taught the alphabet as "A" is for Axiom, your home sweet home, "B" is for Buy-N-Large, your very best friend? -- Taxa (talk) 02:28, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Which speech are you refering to? In the past 3 days, Obama has made 3 major speeches on different topics which have been important enough to have been carried live by all of the major news networks in the U.S.? --Jayron32 03:22, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I would assume he's talking about the one where he was talking to kids in school, pushing the propaganda that they should stay in school. Bush had a similar gig, in fact that's where he was when 9/11 happened. Bush had to grow up in a hurry that day. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 03:45, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Wonder if its an omen? 9/11/2009 is not that far away... -- Taxa (talk) 03:52, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Does this question even have an objective answer that we can provide? It seems like a request for opinion or the start of a forum discussion... Dismas|^(talk) 06:24, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it does; I think it's an attempt to stir up political debate and promote a frankly absurd view of both the President and Wall-E. AlexTiefling (talk) 12:06, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Ya think? :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 12:24, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Also, it could be a way to classify individual responders or reference desk consensus according to political opinion. -- Taxa (talk) 19:03, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Here is the text of the speech [8]. You can decide for yourself. Rckrone (talk) 19:38, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Why would we want to classify ref deskers by political opinion? --Tango (talk) 19:57, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Everyone and everything has a natural tendency to assess and to classify. Cockroaches assess some movements as threat, others as not a threat. We classify food according to glycemic load or fat or moisture content automatically. Classification/identification is what all entities with functional brains naturally do. -- Taxa (talk) 20:21, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Nobody questioned cockroaches. To be more blunt... What is your need to classify everyone here? This is a Reference Desk, not a "Get your Political Meter Assessed" Desk. Leave the idiotic time-wasting self-classification polls to Facebook. -- kainaw™ 20:59, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

err... Thanks for making the point and your example. -- Taxa (talk) 20:34, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Why Alexander the Great didn't conquer Rome?

Alexander the Great wanted to conquer all the known world and declared himself as an emperor of the world. But he didn't invade Rome. Why? 174.114.236.41 (talk) 02:35, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

See Alexander_the_Great#Influence_on_Rome. -- Taxa (talk) 02:38, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

More importantly, because at the time of Alexander, lands to the east were composed of very large, very rich kingdoms with lots of plunder and other good reasons to conquer them. Rome, on the other hand, was basically a backwater town on a small river on a mountainous peninsula with not a lot else going for it. It had, by the time of Alexander, started to consolidate its power in central Italy (Latium), but its hegemony even over its own neighborhood was not assured at this time. Basically, the Italian Peninsula wasn't worth worrying over, so Alexander ignored it. He had MUCH bigger fish to fry... --Jayron32 02:45, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

(ec) Rome was still a very minor state at the time of Alexander. It had not reached a strength to worry the Meditteraenen states until over 100 years after Alexander's death and hadn't even conquered all of what we now call Italy until around 260BC. By the time Rome became a power to be wary of in the region - Macedonia had lost most of it's captured territories and endured civil war. This resulted in the country being much weaker during the Macedonian Wars than under Alexander and they eventually became a Roman province. Nanonic (talk) 02:59, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

The "oracle" connected with the Gordian Knot "predicted" that Alexander would conquer Asia, which did not have its modern geographical meaning. He never declared himself 'emperor of the world": wasn't that Jack Dawson?--Wetman (talk) 05:46, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I am pretty sure that Alexander claimed the titles Autokrator, Hegemon, and Basileus (essentially "Commander", "Ruler", and "King"), all of which would later become associated strongly with the Roman title of Imperator. Technically, the actual title of Emperor did not exist in the world until Augustus Caesar, who was the first Emperor of any kind. The greek titles existed beforehand, but only got associated with the office of emperor during Byzantine times. During Alexander's time the office of Emperor did not exist; it is only later historians by analogy that call the sort of state established under his rule an "Empire". For most of history, Empire was synonymous with Rome. --Jayron32 13:55, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Consider, too, that he was only 32 when he died! While Jayron32 is quite correct that the Italian penninsula didn't seem as worth it, one could postulate that, had he not died - the reasons vary, including sadness over the death of hephaestion - he would have tried to conquer Rome. Alexander living longer is a great subject of alternate history, given that youthful age (well, early middle age for those days).Somebody or his brother (talk) 13:57, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

32 was not early middle age. Googlemeister (talk) 14:31, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, the belief that many people died "young" in pre-modern times, even antiquity, isn't quite true. It is a misunderstanding of the data. If you plot the age at death of everyone born during some time frame, you can get the life expetency; however these numbers are heavily skewed to the younger side because, prior to modern medicine infant mortality was so high. In most places, absent a major epidemic like the black death, anyone who lived to the age of maturity had a high probability of living into his/her sixties or seventies. In otherwords, if you lived to be, say, 16 or so, then your likelyhood of living to 70 or 80 were not much different than today. The statistics are skewed to a much lower life expetency because living to 16 was so hard to do. --Jayron32 14:38, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Ah, yes, I knew that. :-) As I approach 40, though, such thigns start to escape me. (Not that I'm blaming that for calling it early middle age. Actually I was a bit concerned that if I kept the original "young" in there, someone would correct it saying that 32 is not young.)Somebody or his brother (talk) 14:48, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Hate crimes committed by LGBTs

I am looking for examples of notable hate crimes where the perpetrator is LGBT. (I tried posting this question earlier but don't know if it somehow didn't go through or was removed.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.186.12.252 (talk) 04:17, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

One book which generated some controversy (I can't say much more about it than that) was The Pink Swastika... AnonMoos (talk) 05:02, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Look at the bizarre nature of his original version of the question [9] and you'll see why I rubbed it out. He came back with a toned-down version. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 05:14, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, you're bound to find some, if you look long and hard enough. Gay people are human too: I don't suppose that is the answer being so energetically searched for.--Wetman (talk) 05:40, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

The Jesse Dirkhising case, an example of pro-LGBT bias in the USA. --59.189.56.201 (talk) 06:01, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

It's nice that you pointed it out, but it would have been easy, and more helpful, to link the name.... Jesse Dirkhising. Dismas|^(talk) 06:21, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

The question was not about pro-LGBT bias, it was about hate crimes commited by a member of the GLBT population. The article doesn't indicate that the Dirkhising case was a hate crime - apparently, the perpetrators killed Dirkhising because they were sick fucks, not because they would hate him for being straight or white or whichever other category of hate crime target he might have fit in. TomorrowTime (talk) 08:08, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

That anonymous comment about "pro-LGBT bias" refers to the allegation that the Dirkhising murder was under-reported because the killers were gay (and therefore, so the argument runs, immune from criticism in the liberal media). In fact, as the article points out, the reason the murder was under-reported was simply that it wasn't newsworthy enough. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 09:11, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't know whether this comes under "hate crime" as such, but most of Jeffrey Dahmer's victims were of African or Asian descent. -- JackofOz (talk) 09:00, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Ernst Röhm and Edmund Heines were pretty good at the hate crimes. Algebraist 11:49, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Read Opie's question as originally posted and you'll get a better idea of his motivation. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 12:25, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I read it and don't see the problem, or why you decided to remove it. The only objectionable thing I saw was that some people see "Aspie" as an epithet, though plenty of people don't. --Sean 12:57, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

He brought up certain specific groups. That can't be accidental. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 16:36, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Anyone who commits violence against members of minority groups, merely because they happen to belong to such groups, is committing a hate crime. But asking questions about such crimes is not a problem, is it? We encourage OPs to give some context to make their questions clear. Identifying certain minority groups for this purpose is not discriminatory or problematic. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:54, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

The specific groups he mentioned are an odd choice of "examples". I'd be interested in hearing him explain how he pulled them out of the hat. I'm not going to sit around waiting for that explanation, though. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 23:49, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

The OP has certain views/agendas, but don't most people? I don't think it's the role of reference librarians to pass moral judgment where the question can be answered by sticking to facts and references. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 00:10, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

My guess is that the OP either didn't want to limit answers to a specific minority group, or didn't want to give the impression of being a white-supremacist nut job who thinks everybody is out to destroy humanity. --99.237.234.104 (talk) 01:09, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

But he did mention specific, odd groups in his original posting. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 03:10, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Sean. The question as initially posed was fine. Its removal was inappropriate. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 10:15, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

OP here. I thought many know about the friction between blacks & LGBTs and between Muslims & LGBTs. My best friend is an Aspie (I didn't know some find the term offensive) and has been harassed by LGBTs. But examples can have any minority group as victims, instead of always the same minority group as victims.

Ernst Röhm and Jeffrey Dahmer are interesting examples (Jesse Dirkhising also, even if it wasn't a hate crime). Even more examples would be appreciated. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.186.12.227 (talk) 04:09, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

As per your original question, you appear to be determined to perpetrate certain stereotypes. There are Black LGBTs, just as there are Muslim ones. Which means a statement like “the friction between blacks & LGBTs and between Muslims & LGBTs” appear to be bigoted. Further, even when you know some people consider “Aspie” to be offensive, you persist in using the term. In short, you are not here to obtain useful information on obscure subjects, but to provoke.

How do we deal with trolls, class? DOR (HK) (talk) 07:06, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

By assuming good faith for as long as remotely plausible. 213.122.24.205 (talk) 17:50, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I would definitely consider the offensive, but Baseball Bugs, you an have uncanny inclination to censorship. There was no reason to remove the post. There are people who want to respond who don't have a sensitivity to the offences you take.174.3.110.93 (talk) 07:41, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I deleted it because it looked like trolling and race-baiting. And I still think so. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 12:57, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Your original removal was definitely out of line. A polite request to use more sensitive terms would have been ok; removing a question of fact because, in your personal opinion, without generation any consensus, it "looked like race-baiting," is very much against the spirit of the reference desk. As you can now see, the question was perfectly answerable, and no debate was provoked except on the subject of your inappropriate censorship. -Elmer Clark (talk) 22:32, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but on regular talk pages, race-baiting and similar stuff is not allowed, it's reverted on-sight. And his peculiar naming of particular groups sounded to me like some kind of "wishful thinking" that harm would come to these particular groups. He rephrased it in a more general way, and that's fair. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 22:37, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

This is not "race-baiting." He listed some examples of groups that LGBT people might have committed hate crimes against, perhaps to emphasize that he didn't simply mean hate crimes against non-LGBT people in general. And calling it "wishful thinking" is an absurd and insulting leap of logic (I seriously cannot comprehend how you came to that conclusion) and certainly a very blatant disregarding of WP:AGF. -Elmer Clark (talk) 22:42, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Since you're kind of forcing the issue, his original wording was, "I am looking for examples of notable hate crimes where the perpetrator is LGBT. The victim can be black, Muslim, Aspie or whatever..." My initial response to that wording was, "What the f--- is that supposed to mean?" Obviously, you're seeing it differently. But while you're accusing me of not assuming good faith, you're nonetheless assuming bad faith on my part. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 22:51, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

No, I'm not. I believe that you did what you thought was right. I just think you were mistaken. -Elmer Clark (talk) 23:50, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I am an Aspie myself and I know many Aspies and we all identify as Aspies. Maybe a few use the term to insult us but most Aspies and their supporters use the term Aspies in a friendly way, even as a badge with pride. Baseball Bugs and DOR (HK) are either ignorant about Aspies or hate Aspies, I hope the former. I suggest they get to know the Aspie community first. Good to know that OP has an Aspie friend. So stop calling OP a troll and answer his question instead. Once I met this gay online and he said a lot of racist things to me after he found out gay sex is a crime where I live, but maybe that is an isolated incident. --59.189.59.75 (talk) 07:50, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Jerome Tobar

Can any user please tell me the dates of birth and death of Jerome Tobar, author of the book "Inscriptions Juives de K'ai-fong-fou", which was published in Shanghai in 1912. Thank you. Simonschaim (talk) 08:40, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Some library catalogs have such information on many authors... AnonMoos (talk) 14:25, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I also didn't find anything online (as AnonMoos suggested, maybe an editor with library or JStor access will do better), but if you get no better answers here you might consider contacting the Society of Jesus, since Tobar seems to have been part of the Jesuit mission in Shanghai – the Chinese Province branch (see email address on that page) might possibly still have some relevant records. The only other thing I found was more of his books. He seems to have actively published between c. 1895 and c. 1916. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 15:11, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

worldcat.org shows that book was published in 1900. A bit of searching in books.google.com shows Tobar died on September 3, 1917 [10]. With some determination you might be able to find his birthdate the same way. Or, since he was apparently a Jesuit priest, there might be some church records you could get hold of. 70.90.174.101 (talk) 08:45, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Simonschaim (talk) 13:32, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Western (wannabe) Buddhists

Isn't it ironic, that many people turn to Buddhism in the hope to find their self, but, Buddhism is about finding your non-self?--Mr.K. (talk) 11:33, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Are you asking a question? This appears to be a forum-type comment. I'll admit that I, too, ramble at times, and can't get out what I actually want to say - such as one query I had on why people behave in a certain way, which I eventually found in articles on sentimentality, etc..

So, if you have a question about why Westerners become interested in Buddhism, please visit our article on Buddhism, and then - if you have a further question - we'll be happy to help.Somebody or his brother (talk) 13:47, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

OK. Let me formulate the questions in a less "forum-type" style (as if the RD were not a forum). Do Westerners get interested in Buddhism because they have lost any identity of themselves and cannot longer find it? Is Buddhism about not having a self? Isn't it a lost quest?--Mr.K. (talk) 16:15, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

The ones I know didn't but that is OR.Actually,it sounds as though you don't really know what Buddhism is,if you feel it can be summed up in that one phrase...hotclaws 16:46, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I can't speak for all western Buddhists (or any, as I'm not one myself), but as I understand it, a large number turn to Buddhism and other "eastern" religions because they are disillusioned with the Judeo-Christian belief system they grew up in. It's similar to a lapsed Catholic converting to Lutheranism because they no longer believe in the primacy of the Pope. The people who convert to Buddhism don't find the message of the monotheistic God of the Torah/Bible to be compelling anymore, and view the philosophy of Buddhism to be more in line with what they think a religion "should be". It's not necessarily them trying to "find themselves", but rather of them trying to adhere to a religion which more closely matches their beliefs. By the way, I like the koan-like nature of your original question. -- 128.104.112.179 (talk) 16:31, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

As someone who helps to run a Buddhist centre, I can assure you that the vast majority of people turn to Buddhism (in the west) to find a sense of purpose and a less stressful lifestyle. The very few who turn up wanting to annihilate the self are usually people who don't like themselves and misunderstand what Buddhism is about.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 16:55, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

The (several) Westerners I know who are Buddhists began to investigate the religion because it was interesting. There were no other, “finding yourself” or “lost identity” issues at all. DOR (HK) (talk) 07:09, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Evidence that Jesus existed

Not quiet sure how to phrase this question. Simply put I guess I am asking whether there is evidence, outside of the bible, that Jesus existed. Not that it really matters, but just to be above board with my intentions, I have no religious beliefs but I have always been interested to know whether or not it is widely accepted, by people who would require more than just the bible as evidence, that Jesus definitely did exist. I understand that defining "Jesus" may be tricky, but I suppose it is whether there was a man who, around the same time and in a similar location as indicated in the bible, lived a life and carried out acts that fairly closely match with Jesus's representation in the bible. Blu-Ray Betamax (talk) 11:53, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Have a look at Historicity of Jesus. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 11:57, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

As has been previously discussed here, the evidence for the existence of Jesus is about as strong as that for any other person from ancient times who was not a ruler or high government official, and is not mentioned in contemporary inscriptions... AnonMoos (talk) 14:24, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

How do US children treat their parents?

Do they say things like 'shut up', 'fuck you, you nazi', 'blow my cock, fagot'? I'm asking because in some American films the children indeed say such things to their parents... Mr.K. (talk) 11:56, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Also in American movies, human beings can fly under their own power. Just like real life. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 12:19, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

It's not uncommon for American children, during those hectic years of puberty and hormones, to have painful outbursts towards their parents. "Respect for one's elders" is almost non-existent in the United States (unlike many other countries), and there is virtually no corporal punishment anymore. Rudeness is quite common. Obviously this is a generalization, but I don't think it's too off the mark, based on my observations and talking with others. (This my no means implies any sort of American exceptionalism—I'm sure teens all over the world go through this to some degree, though Americans do love their foul language.) --98.217.14.211 (talk) 12:56, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

There's a delayed punishment factor for those rude teens: Having teens of their own someday. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 13:04, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I looked quickly at google and it seems like the net is abuzz with distressed parents looking for guidance in dealing with their "extremely disrespectful teenagers". Couldn't find anyone talking about their flying neighbours, though. I don't think you'll find anything concrete/conclusive that suggests that movies are perhaps overstating the problem, however. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 13:07, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

The US, like any other country, has a wide variety of people. Some children will be very polite, some will be very rude, just like in any other country. --Tango (talk) 13:25, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

The difference is that American filmmakers tend to memorialize it, hence presenting a skewed picture to the world. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 13:30, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

If I ever said anything that remotely resembled an insult I would have gotten a good beat down for my troubles. I live in Australia, but I'm pretty sure it's the same in some North American families. Or at the very least in Canada —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.171.151.31 (talk) 14:00, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Thus demonstrating to kids that violence is a socially acceptable approach to solving problems. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 14:16, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

There are other ways to deal with it, like confining the children or denying them privileges as punishment. In my family, nothing remotely like that language would have been allowed. I certainly don't think that all or even most children in the United States today treat their parents with disrespect or foul language, but it certainly happens, and it is not uncommon. This is of course my own POV, but I think that there has been a growing trend, especially among highly educated parents since the 1960s and especially among the large numbers of them that have only one child, to give up on enforcing any kind of discipline on the part of their precious child. These parents believe that if they are just loving, accepting, and indulgent, their children will be angels. They are reluctant to believe that their precious child might exhibit any of the less savory aspects of human nature. However, the parents' lack of backbone or willingness even to defend themselves against their children's outright attacks may cause them to lose their children's respect. Marco polo (talk) 17:00, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

It also helps if the parents refrain from vulgarity themselves. It's hard to tell a kid not to do something if the adult also does it. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 17:22, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I think this is intended to be a comedy element, and not a reflection of reality. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:15, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

• Mr K: Stop asking these 'forum-type questions' (as it was called above). It's not what this page is for; as is clearly stated at the top. If you want a general discussion, or opinion, please go somewhere else. --Pykk (talk) 09:07, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

It is not a "forum-type" question (whatever that may be). It is a sociology question or perhaps sociolinguistics question. People were answering, and not discussing, so that is a proof that I'm right. Mr.K. (talk) 10:49, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

A call for opinions on a tendentious subject fools no one. This is not what the Reference desk is intended for, period.--Wetman (talk) 11:46, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

American films sometimes present children with freakily authoritative qualities. An air of authority emanating from youngsters equates with adulthood. Offensive language may not always be present. But conjured up may be a freakily topsy-turvy world in which children are adults and adults are children. The vulgarity may be just serving as a marker of adulthood. Bus stop (talk) 12:47, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

And as Comet said earlier, those films are typically comedies. Kids being obscene to adults is funny. Adults being obscene to kids is generally not. Although there can be a horror element too, if you've ever seen a film called The Bad Seed (film). Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 12:53, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

True, it is not meant to be taken literally. And yes, this qualifies as "freakiness." I wasn't familiar with The Bad Seed. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Bus stop (talk) 13:55, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Flag of Kosovo

Prior to the declaration of independence of Kosovo, the primary symbol used by those who favoured independence seemed to be the flag of Albania (or something essentially identical to it). When independence was proclaimed, though, a new flag was put forth. Can anyone tell me how common the new flag currently is within Kosovo? If I went there, would I see lots of people using it? I got the impression that some in the pro-independence camp considered the red and black Albanian flag to be the only "real" flag for ethnic Albanians, and that a new flag which didn't use the same symbols and colours might find it difficult to win acceptance even among those who supported independence — is that the case? Is anyone proud of the new flag, or is it just seen as a committee-designed political compromise? (I'm trying to set aside questions about whether the declaration of independence itself was legitimate and so forth... I'm just interested in how people in Kosovo have reacted to the particular flag, not in its political or legal legitimacy.) -- 203.97.105.173 (talk) 13:00, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Hm. Since we don't seem to have a Kosovar refdesker lurking around here, let me offer my (ex-Yugoslav would be the best description here, I suppose) OR. The Kosovo push for autonomy/independance is an old one. Even back in ex-Yugoslavia, Kosovo demanded to be recognised as a republic (i.e., an autonomous entity inside Yugoslavia, on par with Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia etc.), and after the break-up of the country, this transfered into demands for independence. The Kosovo region never had any real flag of its own as far as I know, and had indeed been using the Albanian flag as a rallying point for the majority Albanian population. So, considering that the new flag is indeed, as you say, a comittee-designed compromise flag (similar in this way to the horrible Flag of Bosnia), and considering that the drive behind the independance movement has a long-time association with the Albanian flag, I would imagine that the populace would feel better bound to the Albanian flag. How long this will last and whether Kosovars will one day accept the flag as their own, I can't say though. I believe some day they will accept it. (One interesting side-note: while there is a majority of ethnic Albanians in Kosovo, the years of different history and culture between them and the Albanians in Albania has caused some major differences between them, and the two peoples don't really feel as part of the same populace anymore, so a merge of Kosovo into Albania is unlikely. Or at least so I have been told in Albania.) TomorrowTime (talk) 08:20, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Damages wrongfully won in libel court

There have been cases under English libel law where a person wins damages for claims which are later proven true (e.g. Sonia Sutcliffe from Private Eye and Jeffrey Archer from the Daily Star). What happens to the damages? Lord Archer paid his back, but was he obliged to do so or could the Daily Star have had to sue for them? AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 14:57, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Archer was convicted of perjury and there are laws against people profiting from crime, so I expect there would be some way to force him to pay back the money. In the absence of that, I'm not sure what would happen. --Tango (talk) 15:28, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Liberace successfully sued a British columnist for libel after suggesting that Liberace was gay. Turned out he was, but that was not known until he got AIDS. Don't know if that columnist was still around to do the "told ya so" dance. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 16:59, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

AIDS does not equal gay so I don't know why you brought that up...hotclaws 16:50, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually Liberace#Lawsuits and alleged homosexuality suggests a different picture. He denied he was gay 'til he died. The lawsuit by an alleged former boyfriend came before and is better evidence IMHO then him dying from AIDS Nil Einne (talk) 19:09, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

True, but if there was a time warp and Liberace was known to have AIDS when he sued that journalist, there's no way he would have won the case. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 03:08, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Disclaimer: The above is my personal opinion on the justice of the matter. I ain't no lawyer. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 04:10, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

How convenient then, that the OP asked for user:Baseball Bugs' personal opinion. Oh, wait ... Zain Ebrahim (talk) 10:20, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Opie asked for cases that were proven true. Liberace fits the bill. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 13:08, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually Opie named some cases that were proven true and asked what happens to the damages in such cases. Opie. 13:14, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

And in the case of Liberace, nothing happened, because he had the good sense to die before he could be counter-sued. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 14:37, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

And no-one mentioned Liberace except you, so I fail to see why you're continuing to harp on about him. Malcolm XIV (talk) 16:24, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

He played the piano in life. Now he's playing the harp. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 16:29, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Please stop. Malcolm XIV (talk) 16:34, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

So does one have to counter-sue to get the money back? AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 14:57, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure one could get the money back at all. In the UK you aren't allowed to publish something that could harm a person's reputation unless you can prove it is true. If it is true but you can't prove it, that may well be your problem, I'm not sure. --Tango (talk) 15:00, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

That's what the guy in the Liberace case found out. But Liberace took a major chance by filing suit. The old principle: "Never sue - they might prove it.'" Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 16:29, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

You would think that he might have taken heed of Oscar Wilde's example. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 17:30, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

It looks as though this could be dealt with in one of two ways, according to the examples discussed in this article. It states that "...it has been a long-established principle that if a fraud is committed in the course of giving evidence during a trial the verdict can be re-opened", so if the person to whom you paid libel damages can be shown subsequently to have given fraudulent evidence, you could get the original case reopened in the hope of a replacement verdict, whereupon the court could order the return of the damages and, one would assume, could order sanctions against the other party if they did not comply. Thus it is theoretically possible to get the money back without a successful counter-suit of some type, although the article suggests it's never been done. (Jeffrey Archer's return of his compensation was made out of court and without any admission of liability, so it's not exactly the same thing.)

Or you could counter-sue them for compensation in a brand-new case, on the basis that you are out of pocket because of their previous fraudulent actions. The article discusses a possible example of this related to John Major, and quotes legal opinion that a high standard of proof would be necessary, in relation to the specifics of the original case, in order to succeed with such a prosecution. Karenjc 18:40, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Green and Blue inverted triangles (Nazi Germany)

Hi, I'd like you to help me to understand those triangles, I know Green = common criminals and Blue = emigrant workers, but cannot understand, I mean, examples?. Thank you. --FromSouthAmerica (talk) 15:30, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Examples are found in Nazi concentration camp badges which hark back to Yellow badges worn by jews in the middle ages. Maybe also see Badge of shame. What is it you don't understand?83.100.250.79 (talk) 15:40, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

The nationality of those who wore the Blue and Green triangle. --FromSouthAmerica (talk) 15:48, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Those who wore the green triangle were common criminals. I would think that most of these would have been German/Austrian, though they probably would have included other nationalities (Polish, Czech, Slovene) from Großdeutschland. Those who wore the blue triangle would have been forced and unforced emigrant workers. These mostly came from Poland, but they also included Russians, Czechs, Slovaks, and others. See Forced labour in Germany during World War II. Marco polo (talk) 16:49, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

White men in the fields of women or Black studies

Are there any White men scolars in the fields of women or Black studies ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.202.236.203 (talk) 23:28, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Sure. I looked at Harvard University's website and found [11] in African studies and [12] in women's studies. I'm sure there are many more. Makeemlighter (talk) 02:10, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

September 11

Searching For A Particular Extract From A Novel Be Richmal Crompton

IN WHICH OF THE SERIES OF BOOKS ON "WILLIAM" BY RICHMAL CROMPTON CAN I FIND THE HILARIOUS INTERACTION BETWEEN WILLIAM AND A SUBSTITUTE ENGLISH TEACHER WHO TRIES TO ARROGANTLY SHOW OFF HIS KNOWLEDGE OF WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE ONLY TO BE THOROUGHLY CONFUSED BY WILLIAM? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.229.236.219 (talk) 08:48, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Did you read our instructions about not typing in ALL CAPITALS? It's the internet equivalent of SHOUTING AT US! -- JackofOz (talk) 09:10, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

It might be William Holds the Stage from William the Pirate but I do not remember the books well enough to be sure. Sorry the answer is a little vague but I think it is better to attempt to answer than simply attacking the questioner. meltBanana 12:20, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

People should be told when their behavior is out of line. It's never too late to learn—— one keeps telling oneself.--Wetman (talk) 21:15, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

And I certainly did not "attack the questioner". I questioned their actions, a very different thing. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:21, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

It was indeed the story "William Holds the Stage" which is the second story in "William the Pirate", pp.36-57. However it was not a substitute teacher but an Old Boy of the school who wanted to show off his knowledge of Shakespeare, since he had written an article on him which had been published in the local press. This Old Boy was allowed to give a lesson to William's class, since the teacher had suddenly been taken ill. William, because he considered himself to be a writer, was the only boy in the class who paid any attention to this Old Boy's lesson, but would keep interjecting his own amusing comments into the lesson. Simonschaim (talk) 17:22, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

1992 Los Angeles riots

How come the article does not mention smaller riots taking place in other U.S. cities and Toronto? B-Machine (talk) 14:50, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Questions about articles should really be put on the talk page of the relevant articles. The reference desk is here to answer factual questions.

But to answer your question anyway, the answer is simple, no-one has put it there. If you have good knowledge of the events then Be Bold and improve the article. Please reference your work, but even if you can;t adding accurate information is a good step. Prokhorovka (talk) 18:13, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

The article is about LA. It does not have to mention other - possibly small - riots.--Mr.K. (talk) 17:38, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Beethoven - Six Ecossaises

A couple of days ago, I attended an afternoon piano recital.

The first item on the program was titled "Six Ecossaises" by Beethoven. This was not a weighty, profound work, but a very delightful, enjoyable piece.

By the time the pianist finished the third ecossais, I got the feeling that part of it was repetitious. By the end, I realized that the last half of each ecossais was virtually identical to each other.

I later asked him about the name. He said that an "Ecossais" is a Scottish dance.

I'm familiar with the concept of "Theme and Variations", but I'm unable to tell if this is an example of that, where each of the last 5 dances are a variation of the first. But even if that's so, I'm struck that the last half of each dance has hardly any variation.

If you're interested in listening to what I'm asking about, here's a link to a youtube clip. And there are other clips there which are pretty much the same.

In this clip, times are as follows:

Dance #--Start time--Start of "Refrain"

  1       :04       :18
  2       :31       :46
  3      1:00      1:14
  4      1:27      1:41
  5      1:55      2:08
  6      2:21      2:37

(I put "refrain" in quotes because I'm not sure that I'm using the word correctly).

Finally to the question - how do you define this work?

Is it six different dances, where it just so happens that the last half of each are identical?

Is it six shorter dances, separated by a "refrain" which is not part of each dance?

Other choice?

Is it unique or almost unique? (This isn't the Language Desk, so I think I can get away with this solecism). Are there any other works like this? Bunthorne (talk) 18:25, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I know this piece well. It's usually called "Six Écossaises", but I've always thought of it as a single, unified work, because, as you say, each number ends the same way, so it sounds like variations on a theme. It's been recorded many times, but always complete afaik. I've never heard the individual dances performed separately. It was published only in 1888, 60-odd years after Beethoven's death, and the title was probably supplied by a publisher. It's a little analagous to the Viennese waltz. Take The Blue Danube, for example. The famous theme is only the first of a number of completely different waltz tunes within the overall "waltz". Does that make the work (and most of Strauss's other "waltzes") a set of waltzes, or just a waltz? Titles are arbitrary things, and sometimes tell something other than the story. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:17, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Jack. That makes a lot of sense, especially when one learns how various works got their name. In most cases, I think the composer would be surprised to find out the name their work ended up with. Bunthorne (talk) 02:52, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Portrayal of Jewish women during Third Reich

From what I've seen, nazi propoganda is filled with images of jewish men and portrays them in a certain way (i.e devious, criminal, deformed, sexually perverted etc.,), but I've never seen or read any anti-semitic material from that era about jewish women. Was there any significant attempt to portray jewish women in a certain light or was it just jewish men who were demonised? 198.54.202.114 (talk) 18:34, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, men were certainly the focus of the propaganda posters, but I suspect there were Jewish women elsewhere in the Nazi cosmology. See e.g. this page in an academic book which discusses how Nazi propaganda discussed Jewish women. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 00:37, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

The Jewish man as predatory sexual deviant was a threat to the purity of "Aryan" womanhood; the reverse situation (Jewish woman/"Aryan" man) apparently wasn't considered worth featuring in Nazi antisemitic propaganda. Another frequently depicted aspect of the demonized Jew not mentioned by the OP is as the fat plutocrat, particularly a profiteer enriched by exploiting the German people. As such the Jewish woman appears as a rich man's corpulent wife, as seen in the children's textbook, Der Giftpilz, and popularly in Der Stuermer. -- Deborahjay (talk) 07:49, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

extermination

What did the Jews do that made the German people so mad at them that they would go along with extermination versus say expulsion? -- Taxa (talk) 19:16, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Not much. The German people were having difficult times (due to reparations from WWI, among other things) and the Nazis gave them somebody to blame. People like to have somebody to blame. --Tango (talk) 19:35, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

The Nazis cited a book written by a Jew calling for Germany's destruction (I forget the name, but I'm sure someone knows what I'm talking about it and will post a Wikilink to it.) Also, the Nazis did try expulsion but other nations didn't want Jews either. See MS St. Louis. 204.2.252.254 (talk) 19:41, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

The book is Germany Must Perish! A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:35, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Given that it was published in 1941, it simply cannot be related to the Nazi treatment of Jews. DOR (HK) (talk) 07:40, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

German attitudes toward Jews had little or nothing to do with Jewish actions. Antagonism toward Jews was (is?) a feature not just of German but of virtually all European Christian cultures that goes back hundreds of years. The Nazis just tapped into it to pin the blame for the German people's troubles on the Jews. See our article on Anti-Semitism. Marco polo (talk) 20:02, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

What about Islamic cultures? Did they play any part in the role you have given to Christian culture? -- Taxa (talk) 20:39, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Answering the first question: I read somewhere today that the an opposition to the Nazi party was the Communist party, which was led by thirteen men, all Jews. A general Europe-wide fear of Communism meant Jews were despised by association; blaming Jewish communists got the people on your side. So all those people were killed due to fallacy...The article may not have been accurate, it wasn't on Wikipedia. Vimescarrot (talk) 20:53, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

That would mean that anticommunism was the foundation of antisemitism in Germany, which is untrue. The anti-semitism article will be useful reading, and probably more so the two articles Racial policy of Nazi Germany and Nuremberg Laws. And The Destruction of the European Jews. To quote our article on the latter:

In the early stages, Nazi policies targeting Jews (whether directly or through aryanization) treated them as sub-human, but with a right to live under such conditions that this status affords. In the later stages, policy was formulated to define the Jews as anti-human, with extermination being viewed an increasingly urgent necessity. The growing Nazi momentum of destruction, began with the murdering of Jews in German and German-annexed and occupied countries, and then intensified into a search for Jews to either exterminate or use as forced labour from countries allied with Nazi Germany as well as neutral countries. Comet Tuttle (talk) 22:23, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

All 13 were Jews? That seems unlikely. Karl Marx was a Jew, so that might be some of where the association was coming from. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:01, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Some of the early big-shots of the Soviet Union were Jews. One has to remember that in the early 20th century anti-Semitists blamed the Jews for the rise of Communism and everything else bad that happened. Propaganda will work even (or especially) if something isn't true (read: Big Lie). The early 20th world was AFAIK very racist and anti-Semitic (I saw TV documentaries which spoke among other things of 'scientific studies done in the early 20's by respected American universities which "proved" that Japanese couldn't fly planes because they didn't have a depth perception because of their slitted eyes and that Blacks couldn't fly planes because they "weren't smart enough", etc' (our article Tuskegee Airmen mentions the last). The Dreyfus affair, Henry Ford, The International Jew, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion... these were but the more acute symptoms. Read for example Scientific racism especially the 19th and 20th century sections. Flamarande (talk) 00:36, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

What about Cuba from which Jews were turned away? Cuba became Communist... and now Venezuela. (BTW - it was just reported that Russia is shipping Missiles to Venezuela.) -- Taxa (talk) 04:21, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

It's MUCH more likely that you guys have this 180 degrees wrong. I am pretty certain that the Nazi's hated the Communists because it was a "Jewish philosophy" (per Karl Marx's background, and others noted above) and not the other way around. They didn't hate the Jews because they were communists, they hated the Communists because they were Jews! --Jayron32 04:31, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

To focus on the question of "Why extermination rather than expulsion" - once the Nazis gained enough power to go from rhetoric to implementation in ridding Europe (and with the Third Reich's aims, eventually the world) of Jews, they developed and used the most effective means of doing so. Remember the numbers involved: so many live refugees were impediment to the policy of Lebensraum and overall would be competing for dwindling resources needed to sustain the wartime homefront population. By eliminating them (that included plundering their properties and wealth by expropriation), there were problems solved and much benefit to be gained. So the Nazi Germans devoted themselves to finding increasingly cost-effective and practical ways to exterminate this vast and reviled population, from shootings by the Einsatzgruppen to gassing in extermination camps plus a number of similarly brutal variations in between. The only valid reason for allowing some skilled or physically fit Jews to continue existing for a time was to exploit them in concentration and forced labor camps, for the benefit of the German war effort. There was evidently no humanitarian reason to keep Jews alive, and so they were exterminated and their remains reduced by incineration or disposed of by burial in mass graves. Kindly note that I don't present this with chapter-and-verse citations (which could well be compiled with more time than I have available at present) but as a condensed description of Nazi theory and practice over the Third Reich period, as is documented in many articles in Wikipedia and research libraries and period archives (in one of which I work). In summary: extermination of the Jews was in their best interests, expedient, and evidently outweighed any counterargument.-- Deborahjay (talk) 08:35, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

The Nazis gave away the wealth and possessions of the murdered Jews to the Nazi's supporters and also the non-Jewish public. Thus, while in Britain for example people became very short of material things during the war, in Nazi Germany working class women began wearing fur coats and there were not material shortages except for perishable goods such as food. I do not remember the details of the book I read that went into the details of all this - its title might have been something like "Nazi Economics". There is another similar book about this that I have not read. 78.149.190.169 (talk) 23:26, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Pharos Lighthouse & Nice (France)

I have just been speaking to a Chinese friend of mine who is studying French in France. She told me that she is going to visit Nice, and she said it is famous for its lighthouse, which she then called 'Pharos'. She was unable to explain to me why she called it Pharos, because she had to suddenly go and do something, but it got me thinking. Why would she think Pharos, the Lighthouse of Alexandria and one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World would be in (or indeed have anything to do with) Nice in France? Can anyone get the connection here? --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 22:34, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

The French word for "lighthouse" is "phare", just as the Spanish word for lighthouse is "faro". So the lady is probably just trying to translate the word and came up with the wrong guess. But then, this question is better for the Language Reference Desk. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 22:41, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Ah, that would make sense. She said 'la ville phare [sic] du Sud' which made no sense to me, not knowing that 'phare' was 'lighthouse', then she said 'il y a un lighthouse, un beacon, un pharos', and these words all struck me as they are all related. I see, now. So, it's just a lighthouse and has nothing to do with Egypt? Thanks! --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 22:53, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Almost nothing, as museum has almost nothing to do with Alexandria.--Wetman (talk) 06:57, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Pharos is a name for a lighthouse - eg http://www.panoramio.com/photo/5243764

See Lighthouse_of_Alexandria#Pharos_in_culture

also " Pharos became the etymological origin of the word 'lighthouse' in Greek (φάρος), Bulgarian (фар) and many Romance languages, such as French (phare), Italian (faro), Portuguese (farol), Spanish (faro), Romanian, and Catalan (far)." from the same article.83.100.250.79 (talk) 12:03, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Also, the expression "la ville phare" in French does not directly refer to a lighthouse. It means "the leading city" or "the trend-setting city". There is a distant reference to a lighthouse that lights the path that others follow, but the expression is now completely divorced for its coastal origins. --Xuxl (talk) 21:09, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Possibly that's what she meant to say, but the conversation turned (by my misunderstanding) to lighthouses. No wonder she 'suddenly' had something else to do.... :) --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 11:47, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

September 12

Symbols

the following symbols are widely used in internet communication after a sentence. but I exactly don't know the meanings. plz tell what to the following symbols mean:

1. :)
2. (:x
3. :-)
4. ;):P (sometimes also :-P)
5. ;):D WikiQuestionnaire (talk) 01:17, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

See Emoticon and the lists linked from there. Algebraist 01:20, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Or just type :-) into the search box.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:22, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Help identifying a sci-fi story...

Shot in the dark, but here we go:

Purchased this paperback book at an American supermarket sometime in the 90's. The plot involved (at least) 2 major interstellar warring factions, both of which had mech technology. You had to "die" to become a mech pilot, as your brain was basically grafted in. I can recall one side considered this a tremendous honor, and would hold elaborate ceremonies before executing their best soldiers in front of their peers and relatives. Doctors then would rush over and prepare the body for transfer. For the other side, their mech pilots were criminals or soldiers who had been mortally wounded, and required various psych-drugs to keep fighting.

I also recall a female commander of some sort masturbating in her private quarters in orbit while watching prisoner interrogations via some sort of camera robot on the planet below (yes, I did actually buy this at a supermarket). The only other certain detail is that I passed the book to a friend of mine (who I'm no longer in touch with, or else I'd ask him!) and he bought the entire series - so there's more than one?

I also recall the winning side's recruitment of some sort of tremendous whale or jellyfish-like aquatic aliens with incomparable psych powers, who played a pivotal role in the final space battle by mind-controlling the enemy commanders. However, I'm not as certain that the preceding plot snippet is from the same book - it may be another scrap of sci-fi memory that time has seen fit to combine.

Any of that sound familiar? Be my hero! Thank you! 213.146.164.142 (talk) 07:32, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Just a note that if no one comes up with the answer here, you might want to repost your query to the folks at the Usenet group rec.arts.sf.written, who can usually answer questions like yours in a matter of minutes. If you don't have a newsgroup provider, the group is accessible via Google Groups here (but you'll need to create a GG account to post your message). Be sure to include "YASID" ("yet another story ID") in the message header. Deor (talk) 11:40, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for that, I'll be sure to do so if it doesn't work out here! (OP on a different conn)61.189.63.208 (talk) 13:04, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't sound familiar, but can you post the answer here if you get it from somewhere else, because that book sounds crazy but amazing! Prokhorovka (talk) 14:52, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

(OP) Just went ahead and posted that on the Usenet group listed. Will be sure to post here again if they find it! 61.189.63.208 (talk) 23:25, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I hope you didn't use the phrase "sci-fi" when you did, as that's offensive to a large segment of the SF community. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 06:24, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

By chance, I did not. But I find the thought of anyone taking offense along those lines as both laughable & sad. There is so much more to life than being offended by literary genre classification. 61.189.63.208 (talk) 06:57, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

A lot of people tend to pronounce it "skiffy", which offends science fiction devotees, who feel that the intentional pronunciation marginalizes the genre. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 07:01, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

This excludes those devotees for whom that is the prefered pronunciation, I suppose. Algebraist 11:39, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I've heard that true aficionados prefer "S.F." to "Sci-Fi" anyway, as with "Trekkers" vs. "Trekkies". Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 11:30, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

As far as I know, no-one uses "S.F." It's "SF" or "sf". Algebraist 11:39, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Just to clear up some of the above: members of the 'SF Community' (which has a cultural continuity stretching back to the 1920s) generally prefer SF/sf, pronounced "ess-eff". Some of the eldest may still use stf ("ess-tee-eff"), short for the older term Scientifiction, a portmanteau name coined by Hugo Gernsback, who founded the first English-language magazine devoted to the genre. Sci-Fi (pronounced "sigh-fie") was originally coined as a (non-disrespectful) pun on Hi-Fi by prominent SF & Horror Media Fan Forrest J Ackerman. However, for some reason Sci-fi became popular with journalists and others who often mocked the genre, and it consequently fell out of favour with Fans, who therefter mainly applied it to poor-quality TV and Film works (or written derivatives thereof) which exploited SF trappings with no intellectual vigour, and regarded its use to refer to written SF as a giveaway that the user was an ignorant outsider. In recent years, Fans have taken to using "Skiffy" (rhyming with "jiffy"), supposedly a doubly ignorant mispronunciation of Sci-fi, amongst themselves as an ironicism. The post-Star Wars boom in (mostly media) SF has created a large genre viewer- and readership who have little cultural contact with the original SF Community, and are therefore excused from caring about any of this. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 20:16, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Cleopatra Thea and Cleopatra III

According to their respective pages, Cleopatra Thea who married the Selucid Alexander Balas, and Cleopatra III who ruled Egypt, have the same parents (Ptolemy VI and Cleopatra II) and were contemporaries. What, if any, is their relationship besides the shared name? -- Deborahjay (talk) 11:48, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

If they had the same mother and the same father, they would be sisters. Thea appears to have been 2-3 years older than III. --Jayron32 12:05, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I got as far as drawing the conclusion that they were sisters, but as the pages are mute on this point I though perhaps some more information and editing might be in order. -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:08, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I looked through Google and found this [13] which clearly states that these two were indeed sisters (the page is about their mother). Flamarande (talk) 15:35, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Education to work in corporate finance?

At first I intended to list my business/economics interests and ask what education would suit the most, but then I found the corporate finance article, which actually encompasses all such interests. So, at the bottom of that article there's a section on "related professional qualification" listing various degrees. But which of all those degrees is the best? Do different degrees (from the list) correspond to qualification for work in different topics listed, or do all the degrees listed qualify for work in all topics listed?

Thanks in advance for your input. Jack Daw (talk) 12:05, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

It somewhat depends on the country where you intend to work. I think that in the United States, the MBA would be the standard degree for this kind of job, though a CPA qualification would probably also help. Marco polo (talk) 18:06, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

two more USPHS songs

I've learned the United States Public Health Service has two more songs. They happen to be Anchor & Caduceus and Bicentennia. I'm trying to find the lyrics to both songs. If anyone out there has any more information, please let me know. Thank you.69.203.157.50 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:56, 12 September 2009 (UTC).

It looks like Anchor & Caduceus is a fanfare so it's unlikely lyrics could be written for it.--Cam (talk) 13:17, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Neoptolemus I of Epirus

Does any source give information to additional children to King Neoptolemus, besides Alexander I of Epirus and Olympias, the mother of Alexander the Great? --Doug Coldwell ^talk 19:17, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Here's one: The first hit on this google books search is (page 187) Pyrrhus King of Epirus‎ by Petros Garouphalias (Stacey, 1979), ISBN 9780905743134. On the google search page you can read this text: 'Neoptolemus I had three children: Troas, Olympias and Alexander of Molossus... and ...of Epirus or else that Neoptolemus I must have had other children we do not.... Best, WikiJedits (talk) 14:54, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Caster Semenya

If she was to run in a men's race or an open race against men, would she be any good? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.128.187.243 (talk) 20:00, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Not very. Her winning time in the 2009 World Championships in Athletics – Women's 800 metres would have put her 47th in the heats for the men's event. Algebraist 20:07, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Or to put it another way: very good. Based on the above, he/she would be the 47th best in the world. --Anonymous, 23:54 UTC, September 12, 2009.

It doesn't work like that. There were only 48 people that finished their heat. People don't run the same time every race, so you can't assume the slowest person that qualified ran faster than the fastest person that didn't qualify would have run. All the women in the women's final ran faster than the 47th and 48th place men in the men's heats. I suspect those men just had a bad day. --Tango (talk) 23:59, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it can't just have been a bad day since apparently they both ran season's bests. Either they've had a bad season or they aren't actually good enough for the competition and qualified through some loophole intended to get more countries involved. --Tango (talk) 00:01, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Looking at 2009 World Championships in Athletics qualification standards, it seems that Semenya would not even qualify for the men's event. None of the loopholes would apply in her case. Algebraist 11:29, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

September 13

How many US Army Colonels have been killed in combat/from combat-related injuries, ever?

I'm trying to figure this out. I was trying to use icasualties.org, which used to have an extensive search feature that allowed you to browse the fatalities in both OIF and OEF by rank, country, unit, name, age, etc. It no longer has that. I'm trying to find out the highest-ranking deaths in the United States Army, and then going down the ranks to see the frequency distribution. Right now the highest-ranking deaths I can find are of Captains... any help?--12.48.220.130 (talk) 00:16, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

edit: Found a Major--12.48.220.130 (talk) 00:22, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Just from a brief look at the List of Medal of Honor recipients for World War II, I can see a brigadier general, a rear admiral, and several lieutenant colonels who received the award posthumously. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:04, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Army Col. James W. Harrison Jr. was killed back in 2007.--12.48.220.130 (talk) 01:50, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I'd be surprised if anyone has made a list of all the US Army colonels killed in combat, ever. There are very many. Colonels died by the score in the Civil War; generals often got killed too—you had a better chance of surviving as a private. High ranking officers died less frequently in later wars; Simon Bolivar Buckner, Jr. was one of the highest ranking to be killed in WW2. —Kevin Myers 07:39, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

This discussion lists lots of generals, though not all died in combat. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:38, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Custer famously died in combat, as well. Malcolm XIV (talk) 10:49, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Okay, but what about the current conflict? I've found 3 Colonels killed in Afghanistan.--12.48.220.130 (talk) 14:58, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Islamic factoids in Borges

1. Somewhere, off-handedly, Jorge Luis Borges refers to Muhammad being taken up to heaven, departing just as a bucket of water has been kicked over, and returning before a single drop of water has fallen. This is used to illustrate differences in the perception of time. My question is, where does this story come from? I know next to nothing of Islam, and would be curious to know if it is a bona fide Islamic tradition, either from the Qur'an or elsewhere, or if it is merely an artistic fabrication on Borges's part.

2. Somewhere else, also off-handedly, Borges mentions an event in Islamic eschatology: every creator of idols is confronted by his creations, which strike him as imperfect and deformed. Then the idolater and his creations are cast into hellfire. This factoid is used as a metaphor for the frustrations of the artist. It strikes me as a probable fabrication, but I'm not sure.

I don't even remember where I read these two things. If someone out there is more familiar with Borges or with Islam, I would appreciate being enlightened on either count. LANTZY^TALK 01:07, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

On factoid 1, that looks like a reference to Muhammad's ascension or Mi'raj. I don't know about factoid 2. Marco polo (talk) 02:10, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I am not sufficiently familiar with Spanish idiom, but in English the expression "to kick the bucket" is an old-fashioned euphemism for "to die". (I know this isn't exactly what the OP asked.) BrainyBabe (talk) 08:58, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

No. 1. is told in the Burak (or Buraq) entry of Book of Imaginary Beings. No. 2. is kind of the plot of The Circular Ruins buthe might have described it more specifically elsewhere it does sound familiar I will dig a little more. meltBanana 16:47, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Dhani Harrison

I have copied the following from the titled article:

Harrison's first name is pronounced similarly to the name Danny but with an aspirated 'd'. He is named after two notes of the Indian music scale, 'dha' and 'ni'.

If one or more of the linguists here could give us the/a definitive IPA for his name, we could put that in the article instead of the text shown. Thanks. // BL \\ (talk) 02:02, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

If it's the same sound as in "dharma" then the IPA should be /d̪ʱ/. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:59, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

When I first heard him say it in an interview, I thought he said "Donny", not "Danny". Therefore, the IPA suggested by Adam Bishop looks correct to me. -- kainaw™ 04:15, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm guessing from the above that you're an American, Kainaw. Would you differentiate between Donny and Dah-knee? Malcolm XIV (talk) 16:00, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

It depends on the speaker. If it is an accent I'm not used to hearing, everything sounds funny. Since nearly everyone I work with is not an American, I am pretty good at tuning in to many different accents. -- kainaw™ 16:04, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I have just realized that, though I meant this question to go on the Language Desk, I obviously put it here on Humanities. I am grateful that (a) no one has chastised me and (b) Adam Bishop and Kainaw have provided answers. I do need the IPA for the whole of the name, however: Dhani Harrison. Thanks. (If someone feels the need to move this to the Language desk, please feel free. // BL \\ (talk) 14:33, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Will raising the Fixed Deposit rate induce in more savings?

With the current turmoil in the banking system all across the globe, will raising the FD rate induce more savings in the financial institutions ? Arteyu ? _{Blame it on me !} 07:19, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

It should induce more savings but not appreciably. What really increases savings is a bleak forecast of the economic future. Raising the FD rates will divert savings from shares, debentures, bonds, gold and all kinds of mixed funds. Raising FD rates will also raise the lending rates inturn hurting retail and institutional loans, hence curbing real growth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sabilosha (talk • contribs)

Struggling to be published

I'm a young writer who's been trying to get published for years, and it doesn't seem to getting me anywhere. I've searched all of the net and sent out queries and synopsises to various publishers, not to mention writing contests, but with no response. The story I wrote is a short story about how vulnerable today's family is, now all I need is to find someone willing to publish it. Do you know who can go with it and which ones will pay well for it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.202.139.241 (talk) 08:17, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Have you tried Self-publishing? Mitch Ames (talk) 12:52, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Two more helpful resources:

(1) If you think the reason for the rejections may be you haven't found the right publisher/method of landing a publisher, an invaluable resource would be the archives here: [14] - detailed advice on effectively submitting your work, written by a literary agent.

(2) If you think the reason may be the writing itself still needs work, read the archive here [15] - advice with a focus on improving your writing (voice, pace, overwriting, etc) from a published author (90 books) who got rejected for nearly 20 years before her first sale.

Sorry I don't have any resources specifically for short story writers. If you consider self-publishing, you might think about whether and how you could overcome the marketing difficulties (assuming you would like both to earn something and see the piece distributed widely). Best, WikiJedits (talk) 14:42, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

My suggestion is to keep writing. Don't quit your day job yet, but keep at it. Publishing will not make you rich quickly; for most people, even being published doesn't guarantee any real money coming in. But you will only improve if you keep at it. Avoid self-publishing—it is just a waste of your own money. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 18:20, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I second 98's last point. Excluding certain special circumstances which do not include such fiction, a writer should never pay any money directly in order to get published, whether as "agents' fees" or anything else. Any such fees or expenses should come out of the money the writer is paid by the publisher after acceptance or publication. This does not include fees paid for writing courses or other tuition, which may sometimes be worthwhile. Another reputable blog you may find helful is http://absolutewrite.com/ 87.81.230.195 (talk) 19:47, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

'Acquittal' from a death by hanging charge

Is it true that initially the murder sentence was commuted as '... shall be hung' but there was some lawyer who found out a loophole so that his client was only 'hung' but not executed. From then onwards they changed it to 'death by hanging' or 'hung until death'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.132.118.34 (talk) 13:38, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't know which country you are thinking about but there was a change to the wording of the sentence of death in England and Wales in 1957. The traditional sentence was "that you shall be hanged by the neck until your body be dead". The Judges slightly revised the wording in 1903 to "you be hanged by the neck until you be dead". Reforms in the mid-19th century had already stretched the meaning of the sentence by aiming to break the prisoner's neck in the fall – the so-called 'long drop method' – so that death would actually occur in an instant. The sentence itself remained the same until 1948 when the House of Commons voted against capital punishment, and all death sentences were commuted to life imprisonment; it was thought appropriate to shorten the formula and so the sentence was changed to say that "unless His Majesty shall otherwise order, you shall suffer death by hanging". The House of Commons was overruled by the House of Lords and capital punishment returned, so the Judges reverted to the traditional sentence except that they retained "that you .. suffer death by hanging" instead of "hanged by the neck until you be dead". This form of words was approved by Parliament in the Homicide Act 1957. Sam Blacketer (talk) 14:10, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Why was "Dead" repeated 3 times in the judicial condemnation "Hanged by the neck until you are Dead, Dead, Dead, and may God have mercy on your soul?" See also, from 1777 [16]. This same weird and redundant formula was supposedly used in the U.S in sentencing of an outlaw, to which he is said to have replied "And you can go to Hell, Hell, Hell!" [17]. Edison (talk) 20:33, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Tho it doesn't answer your question, you may be interested in "Hanging from a historical and physiological point of view" from The Medical Times and Gazette, June 10, 1871.—eric 20:41, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Meleager (general)

Apparently Meleager is the son of Neoptolemus I of Epirus. Whom were the children of Meleager?--Doug Coldwell ^talk 14:46, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

The rather extensive biography from Who's who in the age of Alexander the Great: prosopography of Alexander's empire by Waldemar Heckel makes no mention of children. He doesn't even know Meleager's wife's name or her family. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 20:22, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

What an excellent source! I read over and see what you mean. This source says the father of Arsinoe of Macedon was Meleager. It looks like this Meleager of Royal blood descended from Alexander I. Are we talking two differnet Meleagers do you suppose, OR could they be one and the same. The Meleager in the Google source is in the right time period as Alexander the great and could certainly have been one of his generals (I believe). Really interested in any additional information you might be able to find on Arsinoe. Thanks.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 22:45, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Celibacy

When a man wants to become a priest, he must respect celibacy. Celibacy is to not have sexual relationships from that day forward or it means that person must be virgin. --190.50.85.101 (talk) 17:06, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, do you have a question?Popcorn II (talk) 18:25, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

There are men - even with children - who became catholic priests after their wife died. So, no, there is no need for a catholic priest to be "virgin". -- 91.45.103.122 (talk) 18:33, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

In fact it is theoretically permissable for a man with a living wife (and children) to become a Roman Catholic priest, although he might be required to refrain from sexual relations with her thereafter. I believe there have been rare instances of this, where the man in question was an Anglican priest who had converted. To answer the original question directly, celibacy does not require prior virginity.87.81.230.195 (talk) 19:35, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Episcopal priests are apparently "welcomed back into the fold", even if they have families. The celibacy policy for Catholic priests is based on the theory that they are "married to the Church". Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 20:10, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

There was a more or less serious religious novel "The Accidental Pope" about a guy who left the priesthood to get married, started a family, then became widowed and ended up becoming Pope. IMO it wasn't very good, but it had some entertaining scenes involving the Pope's young children running around in the Vatican and getting underfoot. 67.122.211.205 (talk) 23:54, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Money Markets & Financial Institutions

When the Federal Reserve comes into the money market to mop up excess liquidity, banks put their money (the deposits) in the central bank at OPR plus a spread, which means they get more than 3.5%.” What are the tools used by the Federal Reserve to achieve the statement, and why the move is done in the money market rather than financial market ? 218.111.21.12 (talk) 19:49, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Just wondering...

Are business telephone customers billed for incoming calls? 74.64.121.56 (talk) 20:03, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

If they operate freephone numbers, or single-rate numbers (like 0845) then they pay the excess. Other than that, business telephony billing is much like a buy-in-bulk equivalent of consumer telephone billing. They also get billed for services (which are often available to consumer too, but make more sense to business) like where your personal number rings in five different places in once; whether things like that are billed on a flat-rate or per-call depends on the business plan and the provider. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 20:39, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Qing Dynasty

Would China have been better off in the 19th centuries if the Qing Dynasty hadn't come along? If China had remain under the rule of a Han ethnic dynasty instead of the Manchu. Would China have modernized and become a constitutional monarchy like Thailand or Japan?--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 21:11, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

This is not a discussion forum to debate what might have happened. To keep it simple and on fact... The Ming Dynasty collapsed due to a failure in leadership, extreme corruption in government, a complete collapse of the economy, and multiple hardships such as famine, disease, and earthquakes. The Ming Dynasty was not in a position to regain power. It was just waiting to be overthrown. -- kainaw™ 21:25, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Getting Seed Capital

Let's suppose a guy wants to start a company that makes electronic goodies. To finance his venture, he approaches a Venture Capital (VC) firm. If he was any hopes to receive funding, must he have designs, patents, technology whitepapers, etc.? Or is an idea that is realistic, has simple designs for, and an effective marketing campaign sizeable enough for some VC's to give him funding? Thx for explaining, and respond on my talk page plz.--LastLived (talk) 21:17, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I have extensive knowledge of this subject due to being a fan of Dragons' Den! You need to show two main things - that there is a market for your product(s) (you need a good product and some market research) and that other people can't steal that market (a good patent will do that). It also helps to show that you (or a partner) has some entrepreneurial skill. It also helps if you have a significant amount of money that you have or can put into the business yourself. --Tango (talk) 21:42, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

First Person

What's the oldest example of a story written in first person? TheFutureAwaits (talk) 23:48, 13 September 2009 (UTC)