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August 9

Is there any EVIDENCE of an afterlife?

Without belabouring the point, we have had pogroms, inquisitions, religious rallies, ethnic cleansing, and downright hysterical social engineering, all in the name, though not exclusively, of some form of afterlife or other-wordly superpower; but, to the best of my knowledge, nothing firm, such as would be accepted in a typical and enlightened court of law, beyond blind and unquestioning faith in numerous and diverse dogma, has ever been presented as being factual evidence such as to be convincing enough as to command the adherance of zillions of ordinary people over the ages. So why do humans perpetuate their belief in an afterlife based on their own construction of one? 92.17.241.223 (talk) 00:15, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

There is no evidence that would be accepted by many people (although others say the evidence is all around them). But it's interesting that witnesses in courts of law usually have to swear an oath before giving their testimony, and swearing on a Bible is a long-accepted practice in Western countries. That doesn't prove that courts accept that whatever's in the Bible is true, but it does demonstrate that they're happy to accept the bona fides of a person who does make such an oath, so in that sense they accept the Bible. Also, I know that in the Australian parliament, every day's session starts by the presiding officer saying a prayer that includes something like "Oh Lord, be pleased to guide and bless our deliberations ...", and then members/senators stand and recite the Lord's Prayer. Other legislatures may have similar practices. So the law is supposedly framed with divine guidance to begin with. Again, this doesn't prove anything about the existence of an afterlife, but it seems to be an implicit belief among our lawmakers. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:37, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Short answer: no. Long answer: most people don't want to die and are afraid of it. So the idea of an afterlife is very reassuring to most of them, and since the vast majority of people would rather be happy than right, they'd rather believe that they will live forever somehow than to accept their mortality and limited life. — Kieff | Talk 01:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

It's not actually about "right", Kieff. The existence of an afterlife will never be proven, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The non-existence of an afterlife can't be proven either, because a negative can't be proven at all. Which is why the whole question is in the realm of religion and personal belief, and not in the realm of science. If there ever were scientifically acceptable evidence of an afterlife, religions would instantly cease to exist, because there'd be nothing to believe in anymore. -- JackofOz (talk) 01:40, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

JackofOz, I hardly think religions would cease to exist just because of a trifling mater like proof. Millions of people still believe in “intelligent design” despite very good evidence that it is hogwash.

In reply to the original question and to Kieff, I have never understood why eternal life should be a comfort to anyone. Do people consider whether this would actually be a good thing? I’m quite sure that I would go mad before the first millennium of existence, and in eternity there are an infinite number of millennia. . . There are many reasons why people might commit horrible atrocities in the name of a fantasy. Origin of religion gives detailed information about many of these possible reasons. --S.dedalus (talk) 03:10, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Jack's point isn't that religion would be destroyed by proof that it's false, but rather by proof that it's true. Compare the babelfish. --Trovatore (talk) 03:12, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that was my point, Trovatore. But, S.dedalus, I stand by my statement. Are there any religions based on a belief in the existence of Queen Victoria, or apples, or the moon? No, because these things are all known to exist, so it's not a matter of belief but scientific and universally accepted fact. The question of belief or faith only arises when there's something for which there is no scientific or rational evidence that it actually exists. So the moment the existence of the afterlife were proven, it wouldn't be necessary to believe in it anymore because we'd accept it as a fact. If that happened, the lifeblood of religions would be drained from them and they'd go out of business, bringing a whole new meaning to the term "spiritually bankrupt". Some say they're that already, but that's not a question for here and now. -- JackofOz (talk) 03:31, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, sorry Jack. I miss-read your reply. Actually I think the reason there are no religions based on proof is because of the nature of the word “religion.” :) It’s a question of semantics I believe. If proof were found for a religion’s dogma the structure of the organization itself might remain but it would instead be referred to as a branch of science. --S.dedalus (talk) 04:32, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I know what you're getting at, but I don't think that actually makes a lot of sense. Once a question of belief becomes proven, it always enters the domain of science, and religion then retreats to focus on matters that haven't yet been proven. The church used to pronounce on the Earth-centered structure of the solar system, and those who had a different view had a very hard time of it (Galileo being the classic example). Then it became established that it's actually heliocentric, and the evidence being incontrovertible, the church said "OK, fair enough, you boffins can have that one and we'll concentrate on less tangible dogma that you won't be able to prove in a month of Sundays". (There may be a teensy simplification of the complex connection between religion and science back then). The delineation between science and religion has become ever sharper, and knowledge of the solar system's structure has been firmly in the former camp for a long time now. Religionists may have private views on the matter, but the religions themselves have no formal position on it because they acknowledge it's a matter for science alone to speak on. On the other hand, the afterlife is something that religions have well developed positions on, and science pretty much takes a back seat, although individual scientists have their opinions (true; not true; undecided; undecideable; whatever). That doesn't stop scientists from doing what little research they can in order to shed some light on the afterlife and hopefully bring it into their sphere. But the best they can ever hope to do is prove it exists; because they can never prove it doesn't. A scientist who engages in such research had better be temperamentally inclined to a belief in the afterlife, because otherwise they'll spend their labours in a totally fruitless endeavour (even for those who believe, a search for proof will probably also be fruitless, but there's still a slim chance). Maybe that's why most scientists prefer to show no interest in the matter, because most of them disbelieve in it to begin with. Mind you, that never stopped certain scientists from decreeing categorically that the afterlife does not exist. Quite how they know that, I'm not entirely sure. -- JackofOz (talk) 08:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, they'd still do all of it, I think. Only it wouldn't be called a religion, but a lifestyle. — Kieff | Talk 03:35, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I also never understood that, but from talking with lots and lots of religious people about it, they unanimously seem to think that, somehow, the afterlife will be eternal bliss, by definition, and that these problems - boredom or madness - would not exist in such a state of existence. Doesn't make much sense to me, but again, "making sense" is usually not included in the "belief in afterlife" package. — Kieff | Talk 03:39, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

You need to take into account that, in the view of most people who believe in an afterlife, we go there not with our temporal bodies but with our spiritual component only. So, there's nothing to "do" there, and hence the question of boredom doesn't arise. Whether spirits have minds is an open question, but I doubt that spirits have much to do with the sanity/insanity spectrum. -- JackofOz (talk) 03:43, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Really? I’m under the impression that the average religious person does indeed believe that they will go to the afterlife in a concuss, pseudo-corporeal state of some sort. To quote one example, wouldn’t the whole 72 virgins deal be a bit tricky if all the martyr happens to have in paradise is the spirit component? :) --S.dedalus (talk) 04:45, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, beliefs do vary between religions. Resurrection of the dead may be of interest. In Christian belief, the soul (spirit) gets to Heaven/wherever first, and only at the end of the world does the body get resurrected and rejoin the spirit. The Catholic Church had a centuries-long ban on cremation because of this belief; which never quite made sense to me, because a 500-year old body would have completely decayed anyway, apart from any skeletal remains. Seems that the the belief that God works in mysterious ways applies only to certain situations. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:25, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

As someone who has spent a good deal of his life as alternatively an atheist and a devout religious man, I can tell you the answer to why humans have religion depends on one's perspective, and is extremely complicated. It cannot be answered in one sentence.

• The theistic perspective states it is because humans are tapping into a genuine religious experience. Most people ascribe to this theory.
• The naturalist perspective states it is because humans are programmed by evolution, in some shape or form, to believe such things. Even when suppressed, religion has an amazing way of cropping up behind the scenes (think Communist China, with Falun Gong, or Civil religion - I am watching a hymn being sung to the nation at the Olympics as I write this). The Naked Ape has an interesting section on this. My synopsis goes something like this:

1. It maintains social order (social order is extremely important in humans: read the book),
2. It maintains group/tribal cohesion
3. It fills the role of the traditional primate authority figurehead (e.g., think of Roman emperors called gods)
4. Humans, like most animals (and primates especially), come preprogrammed believing there is a right and wrong which needs to be adhered to (even atheists have political views). Karma, Heaven, etc. all address the issue of unfairness.
5. Humans are the only animal on the planet with the intellectual capacity to contemplate the nature of the universe; this fills the confusing contradiction of our existence.
6. Humans are scared of death and want to think they live forever.
7. Humans become emotionally attached to dead friends and relatives; death is extraordinarily painful.

• There are other perspectives (e.g., some Buddhist branches) which fail to address the question at all.

Personally, I don't know which I believe; the first two actually have a good point so far as I can (I do not find atheism to be credible). Magog the Ogre (talk) 03:36, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

As many have said, part of the answer hinges on what would be considered "evidence," and by whom. The Catholic church clearly believes in an afterlife, and has any number of instances of manifestations by dead people that accepted by the believers -- from Moses and Elijah appearing with Jesus during his lifetime to modern-day apparitions by Mary. Non-Catholics tend not to see these as authoritative, any more than non-Mormons have much faith in Joseph Smith's plates or non-Muslims accept that Gabriel dictated the Koran to Mohammed.

From another viewpoint, sticking with the Catholic point of view, the eternal afterlife's central focus is the Beatific Vision -- the direct presence of God, something that mortals cannot grasp. I'm not arguing in favor of this, just saying that something sufficiently beyond a person's experience or imagination can't be understood. On a much smaller scale, if you've never been able to "get" one of those Magic Eye illusions, it's awfully hard to grasp how the picture could seem three-dimensional. OtherDave (talk) 12:26, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Seeing as no person alive today has ever come back from the dead, we can't really say. Whether or not you believe Biblical accounts of such people (Lazarus for one, and Jesus, who not only came back from the dead but was God, according to the Bible) is up to you; I personally do believe them and thus believe in an afterlife, but whether you consider Biblical accounts empirical proof or not is your decision. I suppose another way to put it is that there's no evidence that there's NOT an afterlife, anyway. --Alinnisawest(talk) 01:03, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe a randomised controlled trial of those who do experience an afterlife and those who don't. If it meets the 95% confidence intervals then it surely can be considered as evidence, can it not?

How do athletes go to the Olympics?

How do athletes go to the Olympics? Today is the opening ceremony of the 2008 Summer Olympics and that makes me desire to go there. In the future, I want to go to the Olympics (especially diving or swimming; summer Olympics) and my father said to me, "I will earn money because I'm an athlete". In my lifetime, I want to be a Olympian (professional athlete who performed at the Olympics.) I participated in two unofficial Olympics (one of them is non-sport). I would want to win Olympic metals. Can this make me famous because I want to become famous. Right now, I'm writing a blog The Olympic World that reports about the 2008 Summer Olympics. And; How do athletes sign up for an audition to go to the Olympics. What should I do if I want to go? Jet (talk) 01:52, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe you have to succeed at quite a lot of regional, then national, trials before you get up to the Olympic trials which determine whether you are on the team. (At least in the US, which is where your user page says you are from.) It's no trivial matter. Your best bet now would be to seriously consider your chances—are you the best swimmer at your high school? Are you likely to ever be the best swimmer at your high school, no matter how hard you train? Are you likely to be the best swimmer in your city? Are you likely to be the best swimmer in your county? How about state? If you can sincerely answer all of those with "it's possible", and then go on to say that you might be one of the best in your country, then maybe it's realistic. If not, well, them's the breaks, as they say, welcome to the rest of us. There are lots of other ways you can succeed in life. I know pragmatic thinking gets a bum rap in idealistic, "anybody can be a winner!" movies, but most successful people (of all sorts) are fairly honest with themselves about what they are good at and what they are not good at, and try to find ways to accentuate the positive. That's my advice, anyway. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 04:01, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

At school/county level, it's not just about being the best either - you have to be a very long way ahead of everyone else. For example, at school I was the best by far, at my local club I was the best by a bit, but at county level I was simply average. I ran 54s for 400m aged 15 - which was the 'C' standard for 13 year-olds. So you can tell early on whether you'll ever be any good. (I live in England, by the way) 82.13.18.200 (talk) 20:25, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Is America in decline?

I was watching the opening ceremony of the Olympic games and ended up being depressed at the end. It brings be back to articles I've read recently by Fareed Zakaria and Kishore Mahbubani talking about the decline of the United States. Is the United States on the path towards decline and irrelevance like? Is the US going to be like France with our glory days behind us? Even though I am a Democrat, I am also skeptical about Barack Obama and whether he can change anything in this country, mostly because my views on people coming in and changing things have been somewhat colored and dashed by recent experience. Some signs:

1. American industry is struggling; note the inability of General Motors and Ford to beat out Toyota, Honda and even Hyundai in terms of sales and profit. 2. Increased discretionary spending on Social Security reflecting an aging population. 3. Decay of general infrastructure; see Minneapolis bridge collapse, Hurricane Katrina. 4. Myopic leadership in Washington; see anyone on within fifty mile radius of Washington.

Is America doomed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blue387 (talk • contribs) 04:48, 9 August 2008

1. Certain industries have always struggled, but see below.

2. This will cause a problem, but certainly not the destruction of society.

3. Infrastructure in this country is as good as it's ever been; we just have a larger media to make a bigger deal out of problems. There are many natural disasters far worse than Katrina in the history of the US.

4. A subjective statement; there will always be alternating good and bad administrations, as there have been for 200 years.

It is important to point out that the United States has been at the top of the world for 100 years, but since the fall of the USSR, it has enjoyed its most prominent position ever. From here, the only direction for it to go is downward. I would not say that we are in danger, within our lifetimes, of seeing the US lose much of its political, economic, or military power (it will lose some, but will be at the top). However, the growing influence of China may eventually put it on top, as would a possible European Union as one country or Russia. Theoretically, any unforseeable wars could destroy the American backbone of power. Eventually, something will have to happen, though it might be a long time. But personally, I find warnings of the US losing some world power in small increments but still remaining very powerful (in the model of the UK of the 19th century) much more credible than some of the doomsday sayers - the US simply has too powerful an influence in too many powerful places to fall suddenly, short of a sudden catastrophe. Magog the Ogre (talk) 05:12, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

People can argue one way or another about America being in decline. However, that is not the purpose of the Wikipedia reference desk. I'm sure there are plenty of forums out there with passionate ongoing discussions about this very issue. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 13:35, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Decline of a world power is a long-term thing that only becomes clear over a matter of decades. During the 1990s, the consensus among world experts on macroeconomics and geopolitics was that the United States was the undisputed world hegemon, more powerful than ever and head-and-shoulders above any potential challenger. The United States has had several bad years, and looks set to have several more, but it is too soon to draw long-term conclusions. Other nations are likely to be as challenged as the United States in the aftermath of the global credit bubble. Marco polo (talk) 14:45, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

A book on this general topic is Paul Kennedy's The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers. It explores the era from 1500 to 1980 and the politics and economics involved with rising and falling "Great Powers". He has some interesting ways to measure the strength of countries and comparing strength relative to other countries. One example for the 20th century is based on population, urbanization, industrialization and industrial output, energy consumption, and other factors. He points out that for some time after World War II the United States produced about 50% of the world's industrial output, and that this is way out of balance with the US's population and resource base as a percent of the world's total. Naturally, this could not be maintained forever, and other nations have come to "take over" various industries that had once been dominated by the US. Calling this kind of thing "decline" may be literally true, but the word has connotations that suggest it shouldn't be happening or somehow the nation is at fault or doing something wrong.

At the end of the book, which was published in 1987 (just before the Soviet collapse), Kennedy makes some predictions about the future, based on trends in the statistics in the rest of the book. These include the rise of China and the relative decline of the US.

An exercise one could do to calculate, very roughly, a country's "natural power" could compare population and resources against other countries (add more factors and detail for less roughness). This suggests that the US still has some "decline" to go, but that the country has a large land base and is rich in various resources-- closer to Europe as a whole than France. One of Kennedy's main points is that historically Great Powers have ended up with "interests" beyond their long-term ability to defend militarily, which can result in higher and higher military spending and debt. The suggestion is that a Great Power in decline, like the US today, needs to abandon some of its less important interests in order to decline without crisis. He gives plenty of examples of Great Powers that did not do this and ended up declining "catastrophically".

In any case, if the "glory days" of the US were around the mid-20th century, then I think yes, they are behind us. Unless the rest of the world destroys itself again as happened in the early 20th century. This raises a question. Which factor contributed more to the US reaching such a height of relative power around 1950: Its natural greatness, or that other world powers self-destructed in long and terrible total war? This is the kind of question Kennedy explores in this book. Pfly (talk) 17:53, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Well first off I think it's difficult to forecast these matters, and indeed a lot of people were saying these sort of things in the late 70s and had just as much if not more reason to say so. But even if America does lose its position as the worlds only superpower, I don't think it's necessarily something to get depressed about. It's likely to be more a matter of other parts of the world catching up to America than America's standard of living going down the crapper. Just as Britons today live better lives than they did while they were the preeminent power, I don't see any reason to believe not being "number 1" would necessarily impact the everdyay lives of Americans. TastyCakes (talk) 20:13, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

In case anybody in the USA might be interested, "America" ist the name of a continent, which is not identical with the "United States of America". -- Meister (talk) 13:58, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Calling the USA America is common throughout the English speaking world, including Canada which would seem to have the most reason to be touchy about it. And for the record, neither of the continents is "America", they are North and South America or the Americas. TastyCakes (talk) 14:09, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

All great civilizations eventually fail. America is not going to collapse anytime soon, but big changes are almost certainly going to happen soon. No country can continue burning resources at the level America does indefinably. I’m fairly sure that the peak of America’s power came sometime around 1945. We are now only slowly realizing that we are no longer the absolute power we once were. Asia will no doubt continue to strengthen from now on, as America very gradually weakens. However there should be no shame in not being a superpower. In many ways Europeans have a far better quality of life than Americans. No doubt the world will be a slightly more sensible place without our particular brand of foreign policy insanity. --S.dedalus (talk) 06:48, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Michigan/Ontario geography

After visiting in Oscoda Michigan I was curious to find out which city in Ontario is opposite or might be considered a "sister city" if they do that. GBbookerGbbooker (talk) 15:31, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean an official sister city, or a city that has the same "spirit" as Oscoda? − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 16:32, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

According to this site, its sister city is Diss, Norfolk, England, and the context suggests there is only the one sister city. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 16:35, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you mean a similar city across the lake from Oscoda - something like Wiarton, Ontario? Rmhermen (talk) 19:33, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

What happened?

Acer became BenQ and all of the sudden even though its site is still online none of the CD drivers, warranties, data sheets, applications, driver, or firmware updates will download. Plus you can not reach them by phone or by fax. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.100.162.249 (talk) 15:45, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I've copied this question to the Computing Reference Desk for more attention. Follow up here. Franamax (talk) 23:57, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

"Characters of x" vs. "List of x characters"

I've noticed that the "characters" articles on Wikipedia seem to be titled in two different ways: "characters of x" and "list of x characters". "List of x characters" end up being lists, while "characters of x" articles are just, well, articles. For example, why is list of characters in Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow and Dawn of Sorrow a list, while characters of Kingdom Hearts not a list? They both appear to be lists. Can someone clarify this for me? Xnux the Echidna 03:35, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Inconsistency. Or hobgoblins. OtherDave (talk) 17:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

So... what should I do about this, eh? Xnux the Echidna 17:11, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

You could go around and try changing all of one format to the other, though I think that's a thankless and ultimately futile task. (You may have a different opinion. I can be bold, but more often, I'm lazy.) Trying to get all the character lists in Wikipedia to be consistent is something that will happen only after we resolve more burning issues like U.K. versus American spelling, the serial comma, and the hidden meaning of userboxes. If there's a project that crosses lots of these lists (like "characters in games"), you might join the project and see if others want to work on the consistency of nomenclature for lists. OtherDave (talk) 17:29, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest trying to start a discussion on this topic at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television) - this is an area where standardisation could be quite useful. Grutness...wha? 21:40, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

CASH WITHDRAWAL SECURITY??

I have been told that recently there has been a security development whereby if you are coerced into drawing cash by another person by entering your PIN in reverse order the money will be paid but the police will be immediately alerted and directed to the scene of the incident. I find this a tad implausible. Can anyone confirm or deny this or add any further information? I'm talking about the UK Richard Avery (talk) 17:11, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not in the UK, but Snopes seems to have weighed, measured, and found this notion wanting. (And besides, if youse try puttin' ya number in backwards, I'm gonna be sorry but you're gonna be sorrier.) OtherDave (talk) 17:32, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Sounds implausible to me, too. I'm in the UK and have never heard of it. If there was such a system, you would expect it to be widely known - it's pretty pointless otherwise. --Tango (talk) 17:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a "D'you know what they should have?" evolved into a "D'you what they have?". Standard urban legend progression. I can think of countless drunken moments where I could have put my pin in backwards and alerted the police inadvertently. Fribbler (talk) 18:01, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

OK, thanks for that everybody. I had serious doubts but didn't think of Snopes. I couldn't understand why my bank had not told me and what do people with palindromic numbers do!!! I also thought the same as Tango. Richard Avery (talk) 19:58, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Online clearance

Some sites like ebay serve as clearance between seller and buyers. Where can I obtain an authoritative list of the most important clearance sites? Perhaps organized by revenue.Mr.K. (talk) 18:51, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Lord's Prayer in parliament

Above, JackofOz writes that MPs in Australia recite the Lord's prayer at the beginning of sessions. Hearing of such practises always makes me sad about the state of the so-called free world. This is what you might expect from bible belt school districts in the USA, but I wouldn't have thought it existed in a place like Australia. It isn't so much the religion as such, but the mandatory, hollow, routine-like, pointless recital of a statement. You know: "Sure, mate, we're a free country with freedom of religion, freedom of speech and stuff like that. But, if you want to take part in making laws, you have to ask the lord for forgiveness and protection, acknowledge his kingdom's will come and that you're sinful". It kind of seems to be along the same lines as making MPs/citizens declare their allegiance to Mao, Kim Il-sung or somebody like that with regular intervals. My question is, do we have articles on these issues, in Australia or other places? Has there been challenges, controversy at all? Any good pointers to outside articles on this (except for the ones I seem to find all the time, with American conservatives blaming wars and economic decline on the lack of church-going in Europe)? /Coffeeshivers (talk) 19:39, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, interesting contraposition with the US. Of course in the US we have a constitutional bar on establishment of religion; while no one has managed to get any traction on the issue of banning non-denominational prayer to open a session of Congress, I'm pretty sure something as specific as the Lord's Prayer would be out of bounds. On the other hand, as far as I know Australia has no such restriction, though I can't find any reference to an official state church. --Trovatore (talk) 20:59, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

(e/c)We do have an article on discrimination against atheists. There is no section on Australia, however. Here in the US, the situation is similar. Congress is lead in prayer daily by a chaplain. Although the Supreme Court overruled them, some states (mostly in the Deep South) symbolically forbid those that "deny the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments" from office. Arkansas won't even let you testify (once again, overruled in courts). On the other hand, no politician running for President would be caught dead saying atheism caused economic decline, or for that matter no one short of maybe the Westboro Baptists. As a fellow atheist, I'd say just deal with it. Run for Parliment, and if you win, make a big deal out of it. You'd probably get them to change their mind about it.Paragon12321 (talk) 21:11, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

The Standing Orders provide for the Speaker/President only to say prayers; it's become traditional, but by no means mandatory, for individual senators and members to join in. This is a little of the history of the practice in the House of Reps (from [1]):

Upon taking the Chair of the House each day, and a quorum of Members being present (see p. 265), the Speaker reads the following Prayers: Almighty God, we humbly beseech Thee to vouch safe Thy blessing upon this Parliament. Direct and prosper our deliberations to the advancement of Thy glory, and the true welfare of the people of Australia. Our Father, which art in Heaven: Hallowed be Thy Name. Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil: For Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen.

On 7 June 1901 the House agreed to a motion ‘That the Standing Orders should provide that, upon Mr Speaker taking the Chair, he shall read a prayer’. An amendment providing for the appointment of a chaplain for the purpose was withdrawn, as it was agreed that the Speaker was the most appropriate person to read Prayers in the House. The standing order was amended in 1918 when the initial Prayer or preface was amended and an additional Prayer was added before the Lord’s Prayer for the duration of the war. In its report of 21 March 1972 the Standing Orders Committee considered a submission from a Member which suggested a different form of Prayer, and that Prayers once a week would suffice. The committee agreed that there should be no change either in the frequency of offering Prayers or in their content.107 When the Procedure Committee reviewed the standing orders in 2002–2003, partly with a view to modernising their language, the committee made no recommendation in relation to the Prayers, and the revised standing orders adopted in November 2004 retained the original wording.

The UK Act that established our Constitution opens with: Whereas the people of New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia, Queensland, and Tasmania, humbly relying on the blessing of Almighty God, have agreed to unite in one indissoluble Federal Commonwealth .... However, the Constitution itself, at s.116, explicitly prohibits the parliament from making "any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth."

And here are some snippets that may be of interest: [2], [3], [4], [5]. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:02, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

THey say the Lord's Prayer in the Parliament of Ontario too. There was a huge controversy when it was suggested that they stop; the vast overwhelming majority of people either supported it or did not care. Adam Bishop (talk) 04:02, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Declarations of allegiance... You might be interested to read Oath of Allegiance (United Kingdom), explaining briefly the requirement for an MP to take their seat in Parliament in Britain. 79.66.38.215 (talk) 04:43, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the responses, people. Most interesting, and discouraging. "So help me God" required in the British citizenship ceremony. The rest of it seems reasonable, why tag on such a thing to invalidate it all? (I know the answer. It has always been like that, and it would be more controversial to try to remove it. But still...) Re Paragon12321's entry above: Obviously it is not a mainstream idea that atheism is to blame for whichever kinds of decline, I was merely commenting on the types of articles I seem to come across when googling for information on issues like these. I.e. Westboro Baptists and their likes being outraged over a jurisdiction loosening the requirements on claiming to be a Christian to perform certain duties. /Coffeeshivers (talk) 11:53, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

medicine

i had rasied liver function and high trigylines doctor put me on metforim 500mg 3 times a day and bezafibrate 200mg twice a day can u take both together —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.181.156 (talk) 20:01, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

We cannot offer medical advice; you need to ask your health-care provider and/or pharmacist. Out of curiosity, though, what's a "trigyline"? --Trovatore (talk) 20:51, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

If the same doctor put you on both, then I would expect so. Doctors generally know quite a lot about medicine, and certainly more than random people on the internet. If you think he's made a mistake, ask for a second opinion, either from another doctor, or your local pharmacist (they also know a lot about medicines). --Tango (talk) 21:25, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I think he meant high triglycerides--79.76.203.9 (talk) 02:17, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Daughter's Female Partner

My daughter will have a civil ceromony this year with her female partner. What will her partner's relationship be to me? The definition of daughter-in-law is "the wife of one's son". I have not seen any definition to include "the female partner of one's daughter". Would the French term "belle fille" encompass it? Any ideas please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.213.181.240 (talk) 20:28, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I think daughter-in-law works, the definition is just out-of-date. A daughter-in-law is someone that has become a member of your family through law, rather than birth, and a same-sex civil partnership seems to fit that definition just as well as a conventional marriage does. --Tango (talk) 21:18, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

It's one case where language hasn't caught up with social change. I'd use the term "De facto daughter-in-law" - it gets the point across without fuss although (a the article de facto points out), technically speaking it's incorrect. We do need a separate set of terms both for civil ceremonies and for LGBT couples, really though. Grutness...wha? 21:31, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I would interpret "de facto daughter-in-law" as meaning the "common law wife" of your son (or, possibly, daughter). If they've actually had a civil ceremony, then the relationship is de jure, not de facto. --Tango (talk) 22:14, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

These type of situations get a little touchy. There are those who strongly oppose the uses of conventional family terms in reference to same sex relationships. Thus it's not just the idea of language catching up to society. Marrage, wife, husband, aunt, and uncle are all terms that fall into this area. To my ears Tango's logic is sound enough but that doesn't mean everyone will consider it so. Omahapubliclibrary (talk) 22:48, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Even the Wikipedia article on Affinity (law) states that in-law terms apply to kin of "husband and wife" rather than husband or wife. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omahapubliclibrary (talk • contribs) 22:56, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand, what's the distinction you're trying to make? --Tango (talk) 23:15, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

"husband and wife" automatically precludes the possibility of husband and husband, or wife and wife (or husband and wives/husbands and wife for that matter) - husband or wife as separate terms allows for any of the glorious multitude of possible combinations. Grutness...wha? 01:16, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, yes, like I say, the definition of out-of-date. It wasn't a concious decision to exclude same-sex partnerships from the definition, they simply didn't exist until recently. --Tango (talk) 02:35, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

You could always ask your daughter -- or, even better, her partner. I'm sure she's been asked before, and your openness about your uncertainty could help strengthen your relationship with her, especially if you ask in a "how would you like me to refer to you" way. (By way of analogy, in a different situation she might prefer to be called "black" rather than, say, "African-American," or vice-versa. That could count for a lot more than how someone else might decide to label her. OtherDave (talk) 23:20, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Why not just "daughter's partner"? It has no more syllables than "daughter-in-law", and it is accurate. The word "partner" sort of suggests "same-sex", but what does the gender of your daughter's partner matter anyway? If in some context the gender of your daughter's partner is important, you could say "daughter's female partner" or maybe better still "my daughter's partner, Linda" (or whatever her name is). Marco polo (talk) 01:55, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

"Partner" could suggest they were unmarried. You could go with "daughter's civil partner" to make it clear exactly what the nature of the relationship is. --Tango (talk) 02:35, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

In English, definitions describe usage instead of dictating usage. You should use the term that you think best describes the relationship, and only you and your new family member really get a vote in this. -Arch dude (talk) 16:16, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

If you think of her as your daughter's wife, and consider her part of your family, then you should just use 'my daughter-in-law,' which is a simple and clear description of your relationship to each other, even if the actual law has not yet caught up with you. If you don't think of her as part of your family but tolerate her presence out of a desire to avoid conflict with your daughter, you should refer to her as 'my daughter's partner,' which will establish that she is related to your daughter but not to you and maintain the distance you desire. If you deeply resent her presence, 'That Woman' is the traditional address, or 'my daughter's ... friend.' It all depends on what message you'd like to convey about your relationship to her. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 14:35, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Trolling on foreign-language wikis?

Is there much trolling on foreign-language wikipedias? It would be interesting to see how different cultures vandalise and troll. DrugProblemm (talk) 21:06, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Why wouldn't there be?78.149.94.253 (talk) 14:57, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I also thought it was a silly question on first reading it but it may well be a very useful learning experience. DrugProblemm might want to consider visiting Wikiversity and conducting research as part of a learning project. Sensible question :) 79.184.38.147 (talk) 21:10, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

McKinney, Texas

If Linda Theret's daughter treated McKinney, Texas very bad, should she expect the same treatment? Ericthebrainiac (talk) 21:49, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

That would be a matter of opinion. The reference desk is not a venue for debate, it's a place to get answers to questions which actually have answers. --Tango (talk) 22:10, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Definitely not. Well, she should expect no worse treatment than that meted out to editors who ask incomprehensible questions on the Ref Desk. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:11, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

If Tuesday Weld had married Hal March II, would she have been Tuesday March the Second? OtherDave (talk) 23:21, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Regrettably, no. The wife would only use the "II" part if she used her husband's first name as well. They could have a daughter and name it after the mother, though, that would do it (it would be a little unusual to use "II", but it would be valid). --Tango (talk) 00:19, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

But if Wanda Jackson had married Howard Hughes, divorced him, then married Henry Kissinger, would she be Wanda Hughes Kissinger now? --Trovatore (talk) 04:59, 11 August 2008 (UTC) I should say, to avoid accusations of plagiarism, that this is not original with me; however I don't know to whom to attribute it.

What the !#@$! are you talking about? And who is Linda Theret? DrugProblemm (talk) 00:14, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

The principle of some school in McKinney, Texas whose daughter was involved in some scandal. Google will give you the details if you care. --Tango (talk) 00:19, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Do Texan schools operate on principles?  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 02:50, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok, so I don't know the difference between an 'a' and an 'e', so sue me! ;) --Tango (talk) 03:05, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

August 10

M.I.T.T.

What is M.I.T.T. (Mastery in Transitional Training?)? A friend is trying to get my brother to take the class/course/whatever it is, and he has no information on it. I can't find anything online. Thanks 75.83.185.97 (talk) 03:17, 10 August 2008 (UTC) Joanne

Where is it being offered? --Tango (talk) 03:27, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Why not Google Transitional Training (as I just did) ? All the answers are there.86.200.7.78 (talk) 10:25, 10 August 2008 (UTC)DT

Still looking for info. This is a self help type program - like The FORUM, I think, and it's offered in Los Angeles. When I Google any combination, I get all sorts of other courses (flying, equine, etc.) but not this one. - Joanne —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.83.185.97 (talk) 17:26, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Is the flying course taught by ex-Pralite monks? I wanna take that one. --Trovatore (talk) 08:46, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Offered where in Los Angeles? You need to look up the organisation offering it. --Tango (talk) 17:47, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Finally found it - it's www.mittraining.com. Strange I couldn't find it Googling. My brother was finally told what the site was. Thanks for the suggestions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.83.185.97 (talk) 21:27, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Earthquake colors

We had a minor earthquake here a couple summers ago (big enough to shake everyone a bit around but small enough that no one was hurt)... They're pretty common for us, but this one was very odd. Right before it happened, our backyard starting glowing green. And I don't mean that it was especially bright out and the sunlight was reflecting the foliage or anything like that: anything and everything was tinted green. I actually did a double-take while walking through our kitchen and had to stop and stare. You know those sunglasses Dorthy wore in The Wizard of Oz when visiting the Emerald City? Yeah... I think I know what that must have looked like now. The bark on the tree, the trampoline, the lawnmower... It was like someone had dressed everything up for Saint Patrick's day. I was afraid to step out for a while for fear of what horrid things might have fallen from the sky and caused it. (I actually wondered for a split second if it was fallout or something to that effect).

As soon as the quake was over, everything was normal. I spoke to some people afterword and asked them if they had noticed anything strange before the actual earthquake (before telling them about what I saw, mind you), and every one of them made mention of changing colors before anything else. There was talk of bright yellow, deep blue, and I don't even remember what else... Anyway, my question is this: has anyone else heard about this? And is there a term for this phenomenon? I know that it's been seen before (I had a weather book at some point with a picture of a farmhouse in Japan minutes before a quake where everything looked dark blue), but all that I can find on the subject is the same video of right before the China disaster. It's similar, but not what I'm looking for... These colors weren't in the sky (they were everywhere), and every news site related to the video labels it as nature's warning for "severe" earthquakes, whereas ours was pretty mild. You'd think after hundreds of years of this happening there'd be more research on the subject, but so far as I can tell no one sans myself considers it even remotely interesting. --69.146.230.243 (talk) 03:52, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Earthquake lights? Adam Bishop (talk) 04:00, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

If they lights were in the sky (aurora-style) then couldn't they be reflected on the ground? Plasticup ^T/C 04:26, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I stepped out and looked around and the sky was normal. It was just the stuff on the ground that was tinted. Odd, no? --69.146.230.243 (talk) 04:31, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't St Patrick's Day by any chance?  :) JackofOz (talk) 15:08, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Supposing that it was indeed earthquake lights, the sky appearing normal wouldn't necessarily prove anything, if this earthquake took place during daytime. During the day, the sky is very bright, after all, what with the sun being up and all. There's not a lot up there to reflect the green light back down to you, unless it was a very cloudy day, so you could easily not notice it at all. Your back yard, on the other hand, is made of things that reflect light, so the green glow would be far, far more noticeable down there. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 01:48, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization as self-defeating organization

The Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization is described as an "international organization" for peoples who "lack representation internationally". The existence of the organization, however, gives these peoples international representation. Is there a name for this phenomena, other than, say "self-defeating" or "self-contradictory"? − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 07:08, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

A Self-refuting idea? Fribbler (talk) 11:51, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Paradox? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.4.187.55 (talk) 12:11, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

See also self-reference and linked articles. There's nothing deeply paradoxical or self-defeating about this organization, though, since it becomes perfectly sensible if you replace "lack" with "otherwise lack" or "formerly lacked", and that's undoubtedly what the original phrasing was intended to mean. I'd call this a false paradox arising from an incorrect logical interpretation of an English utterance. -- BenRG (talk) 12:58, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe "otherwise lack", but not "formerly lacked", since they have former members such as Estonians, Latvians, and others. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 01:12, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Heterological. Malcolm XIV (talk) 14:08, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with it, and "otherwise/formerly lack" is unnecessary. "Peoples who lack representation internationally" defines who is eligible to join; it doesn't describe their status after they've joined. Look in any set of eligibility rules for a club, organisation etc, and you won't find any mention of "members" because they only become members at the moment of joining. That's why joining rules don't need to include such crazy sentences as "Membership is available only to persons who are not already members". -- JackofOz (talk) 21:24, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

cooking

is corn starch the same as corn flour —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.239.124.20 (talk) 08:21, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

According to Cornflour and this, in the UK, cornflour is the same as cornstarch in the US. But according to this, "if you are talking in American terminology. Cornflour is finely ground corn, which is essentially polenta. Cornstarch is a common ingredient used to thicken sauces..." Zain Ebrahim (talk) 08:43, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I've no idea what corn starch is, but from both of Zain's descriptions above, corn starch sounds like the US name for what we call corn flour here in the UK - something to thicken sauces with. Astronaut (talk) 15:56, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Really! Then what do you call corn flour, meaning the stuff you make cornbread out of? --Trovatore (talk) 22:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

We don't make cornbread. DuncanHill (talk) 22:12, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

So much the worse for you.... --Trovatore (talk) 22:14, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I suspect that we would call it polenta flour, or cornmeal, if we did have any call to use it. DuncanHill (talk) 22:17, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Corn meal -- yes, we use that term too, sometimes. Polenta flour sounds like it's specifically for making polenta, which is not very likely what we'd use corn flour for. (You really should try cornbread; you're missing out. The best cornbread is made from coarse-ground flour, possibly with a few whole kernels mixed in, and is a bit greasy and salty and not too sweet. There's a version of cornbread that's way sweet but I don't really like it much — if I wanted cake, I'd have asked for cake.) --Trovatore (talk) 23:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

what is the difference

what is the difference between an Atheneum and a Museum? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.173.188.133 (talk) 12:33, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Have you read Atheneum? Zain Ebrahim (talk) 14:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

did you know that the Atheneum in Hartford Connecticut is the oldest Atheneum in the country? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.173.188.133 (talk) 19:00, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Based on the Wadsworth Atheneum and Boston Athenæum articles, that doesn't seem to be true.

Atlant (talk) 22:56, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

abandoned vehicles

Why does it seem that every abandoned vehicle on the side of the freeway has a t-shirt hanging from one of the side windows? We can't come to any logical conclusion as to why anyone would do that after their car breaks down, but maybe we don't know something that everyone with an unreliable car does. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.218.82.112 (talk) 15:39, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

A T-shirt or other flag means "I need help." It indicates that the car is not merely stopped for the convenience of the driver and that the driver cannot deal with the situation without assistance: it is a request that another motorist please stop and provide assistance or carry a message. When the driver no longer desires that other motorists stop, the flag should be removed. -Arch dude (talk) 16:04, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

door knob

looking for ways to keep door knob from comming off, this is a glass door knob with a set screw that screws down on to the shaft,and keeps working off the shaft.Rpzeoh (talk) 16:06, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

If you mean that the set screw is loosening gradually, a little bit of nail polish may be enough to prevent it rotating. Franamax (talk) 16:33, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Loctite is a thread locking material which helps to keep screws from working loose. You can also buy a new setscrew for less than a dollar at a hardware store, which might be tighter than the old one, or you can buy a new knob and screw if the threads in the knob are worn. Edison (talk) 19:44, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I suggested nail polish because it can be reversed with nail polish remover (you just dab it on the top of the setscrew). Loctite definitely does the job - but it might also make removal of the screw more difficult when desired, especially for an older screw where the driver slot is widened out. I've seen the nail polish method recommended for securing eyeglass screws, and it has the benefit of being widely available in almost any purse around the globe. :) Loctite and a new setscrew are valid options. As far as buying a new knob - I personally will spend hours farting around with repairs before buying something new, long past the point when I should - but I like fixing stuff! Franamax (talk) 23:44, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Username

Hi, I've looked over the username policy, and fully understand it. But I just can't think, so I'd like some suggestions on a good username. Thanks. 79.75.153.179 (talk) 16:39, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Loyal to the Group of Seventeen. Algebraist 16:50, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

If I'd thought of it before creating my account, I'd have gone with Trout Slap Replica.[6][7] (It's not taken if you want it.) Deor (talk) 17:02, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

It's difficult, isn't it? Your username, ideally, should represent you, but still protect you (i.e. not tell people who you don't know who you are). Lots of people choose something to do with their favourite tv show/book/movie/historical person ("HomerSimpson"/"OpheliasSuicide"/"GWashingtonWasHere", etc.). Others use a reimagining of their real-life name by changing letters, changing the order, spelling it like another language, and so on. Others use a creation of their own ("SarahJaneP.Fothering-Ettisburg"), or a witty reference to the site their working on ("WorldsBestWikiEditor"). Still more use a random combination of letters which may or may not be their initials ("sDjL"/"RMcD73") Steewi (talk) 04:18, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm...WhaleOilBeefHooked? Lemon martini (talk) 12:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Uneven bars

When did the Asymmetric Bars in gymnastics become the Uneven Bars? The latter just sounds child-like to me. They were called Asymmetric bars when I used to watch the Olympics as a kid. Jooler (talk) 17:16, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Moved to Wikipedia:Reference desk/Entertainment as it covers sport. Jooler (talk) 20:38, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Getting robbed by the police

This is something that happened to me recently and I know it will happen in the future because I will continue traveling so it will happen again. But I want to do better.

I arrived in Maputo the capital of Mozambique by bus. At the bus station a man dressed in plain clothes climbed into the bus and flashed his badge. He demanded I show my passport. I turned to the man sittng next to me for the last 40 hours, a guy who said he was an instructor at the police academy. He verified that they were police officers. He said they were in plain clothes. He suggested they might be trying to find Chinese illegally entering to visit their families (I'm ethnic Chinese).

The man with a badge went on to find three Kenyan nationals of Somali ancestry (Somalis are highly reviled immigrants in Southern Africa) and asked them for their passports too. He then told us all that we would have to go to the police station with him. There were four other men with this guy with a badge. I went to get the police instructor to ask what was going on. He talked with them but they still persisted. I asked the instructor to go along with us but he didn't want to.

So with the Kenyans were marched to a police station (a real police station to my initial relief). But in the back, we were all searched and taunted for being Somali and Chinese (a uniformed officer even went up to us while we were back and did a "ching-chong-chong" dance. The Kenyans did not have the protection of American citizenship and were strip searched and had all their USD taken. I was just hand searched and had some money taken. I forked it over, hoping to get the hell out as quickly as possible. We were released then.

It has always been standard advice to defuse corrupt police by going to the station. Apparently in Mozambique that's how you really screw yourself. So what could I have done differently? Demanded on the spot that the embassy be called and accompany me? Bluffed somehow? What would have been likely responses by the thugs and how would I have handled it best? Help me think this over guys!

Lotsofissues, Finally in Cape Town, 18:46, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm really sorry to hear about this, but I'm afraid that when you are in the hands of corrupt police, sometimes your only recourse is to pay them off. They have absolute power to do what they want, short of provoking a foreign-relations incident. I'm afraid that they can probably get away with roughing up a US citizen, so you were lucky. In some countries, you just have to include bribes as part of your travel budget. Marco polo (talk) 19:29, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

When being mugged, I have often read the best advice is to cooperate and hand over your small stash of "muggers money", while keeping the rest of your cash safe in your underwear, boots, hat, or whereever. But I have also always believed that it is best to cooperate with foreign officials. It is however an unfortunate fact that in some countries the police and other government officials are poorly paid and are therefore tempted by corruption. Foreigners are often targeted because they are usually ignorant of the law and/or don't speak the language. Western visitors are often simply relieved of their cash, while other "undesirables" who are less likely to kick up an official fuss, are treated more harshly. You could ask at your nearest US consulate but I doubt you would get very far without specific details like the names/ID numbers of the police officers involved. Best advice: put it down to experience and don't visit Mozambique without taking precautions (hide your money, learn Portugese, find out what Maputo police uniforms and IDs look like) and if you are unfortunate enough to be mugged like this again try to get some details like names, ID numbers etc. However, it is also worth remembering that $50 is a big payday for these guys, and a cheap night out for you or I. Astronaut (talk) 19:50, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry it happened to you LOI, but maybe afterwards, you could write a piece about your experiences for a travel supplement and make a profit. Julia Rossi (talk) 01:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

You ought to report it to the US consulate. They probably won't do much for you but it's a good thing to have it on paper along with the location of where it happened—it could prevent it from happening again, or at least they could modify their current copious travel warnings on the country to include police crime. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 13:40, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Web phones

I am thinking of getting a new cell/mobile phone that offers web access. I particularly want to be able to use this phone while traveling outside of the United States, so I'd like to be able to replace the SIM card with a local prepaid SIM card to avoid the astronomical "roaming" fees that US cell-phone providers charge for network access outside the United States. The iPhone seems to be the premier web-accessible phone, but it does not seem to have a replaceable SIM card. Are there other phones, available in the United States, that feature replaceable SIM cards? Also, one of the main reasons I want web access for mapping sites like Google Maps. Are Google Maps (or, say Multimap) files large enough to strain the bandwidth of most cell phones? Thank you! Marco polo (talk) 19:40, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Is this to do with your forthcoming trip to the UK? Here in the UK, the full iPhone service is only available on the O2 network on special iPhone tarrifs. The O2 iPhone help implies that the iPhone needs a SIM card (either per-paid or post-paid) to be inserted in the "Sim carriage" slot and the iPhone needs to be connected to iTunes to complete it's activation. To be honest, I wouldn't bother getting an iPhone just to use google maps or multimap, when the car rental company can probably offer a satellite navigation device or you can buy a decent (approx 4 miles to the inch) printed map of the whole country for about £5 from any gas station. Astronaut (talk) 20:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Almost all J2ME compatible phones can run Google Maps Mobile, and the original iPhone has the slowest internet compared to modern 3G phones due to its very huge deficiency of not being 3G. The whole thing of iPhone being premier web-accessible phone is complete BS when the rest of the world had Google Maps Mobile, Opera Mini and others all along. --antilived^{T | C | G} 04:35, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

But that complaint no longer applies as the iPhone 3G works fine on 3G networks.

Atlant (talk) 22:51, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

How come Chris Kaman gets to play on the German national basketball team?

I wuz watchin the Olympics and somebody on the telly said it's because his grandparents are German or something.... but what are the requirements, exactly? Don't you have to be a citizen?--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 20:10, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

As of July 2, 2008, he is a naturalized citizen of Germany, though I don't think his special case is mentioned in the article on German nationality law. Apparently Kaman's naturalization was conditional to his expressed commitment to henceforth only play for the German national team, and to keep his primary residence in Germany. Germany's Interior Minister Wolfgang Schäuble seems to have pulled some strings as well. [8] ---Sluzzelin talk 20:21, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

If the England cricket captain can be born in South Africa, I'm sure Chris Kaman can play basketball for Germany. Anyway, the Chris Kaman article says: "Kaman is a dual citizen; he is a citizen of the United States and of Germany. His great-grandparents were German, so he acquired German citizenship in July 2008." Another thought, perhaps he missed the cut to make the US team, but still qualified for the German team. Astronaut (talk) 20:31, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but as Sluzzelin points out above, the only reason he acquired dual citizenship last month was so he could compete with the Germans internationally. Just seems a little shady. In any case, I enjoy watching Shaggy play, so I suppose there's no real harm being done.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 21:14, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Rule 42 of the Olympic Charter sets out the nationality requirements for the Olympic Games (it's on page 81 of the Charter). If he is a dual citizen, then bye-law 1 would apply: "A competitor who is a national of two or more countries at the same time may represent either one of them, as he may elect. However, after having represented one country in the Olympic Games, in continental or regional games or in world or regional championships recognised by the relevant IF, he may not represent another country unless he meets the conditions set forth in paragraph 2 below." So, as long as he has never played for the US team, he can choose to play for Germany. (If he wants to play for the US in future, there is a three-year waiting period after the last time he plays for Germany, unless the German Olympic Committee agrees to waive it.) - Eron^Talk 21:01, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

That makes a bit more sense. Thanks everyone for the replies.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 21:14, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Where can i obtain reviews about Jones International University?Priscila02 (talk) 21:16, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

On Google there are a few paid reviews by Jone International University (JIU), and a few other add on college searching engines. The school is accredited, it belongs to the Better Business Bureau, but why can't i find reviews on discussion forums by students or alumni's else where? I am very interested in their curriculum but would like more reassurance from the community other than provided by JIU ? Thanks! Priscila Priscila02 (talk) 21:16, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Where money for covering budget deficit comes from

Almost every government in the world is having negative budget year after year. there is this money coming from? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.157.85.105 (talk) 22:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Most major currencies no longer adhere to any sort of standard (such as a gold standard or silver standard). Instead, the modern practice of fiat currency allows a government to simply print more (or electronically create more, which is even simpler). As such, the value of money is driven primarily by the user's confidence in it. — Lomn 22:30, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

More commonly, governments borrow the money. See government debt. Algebraist 22:36, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

It is financed by the private sector which buys government bonds. Plasticup ^T/C 23:46, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

As others have said, it's covered by borrowing from individuals and private companies. That means many governments have ever increasing debts and never pay them off (they pay off individual bonds, but only by selling new bonds). This may seem to be a problem, but it isn't necessarily. The key measure of debt isn't the actual size of the debt itself, but rather the ratio of the debt to the country's GDP (the size of its economy, roughly speaking). If GDP rises at least as fast as the debt rises, then the ratio doesn't get any worse. That all goes horribly wrong, of course, when economic growth drops (or even goes negative, ie. the economy is shrinking) as it's doing in many countries at the moment - governments have to keep borrowing to get their country their the economic crisis, but the economy isn't growing enough to compensate for the extra debt, and that's when the problems start (it starts to become difficult to afford all the interest, for example). --Tango (talk) 00:11, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

For the U.S., it's basically money loaned by China. Edison (talk) 00:40, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

@Tango, nice Freudian "borrowing to get their country their the economic crisis" as it does (though take it you meant through or over)  ;) Julia Rossi (talk) 00:44, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

In case you're serious, only a small fraction (less than a trillion dollars) of the United States public debt is held by China. Most is still borrowed from US citizens. Algebraist 00:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

However, China's enormous US dollar reserves are effectively an interest-free loan to the US government (or Federal Bank, I suppose), see seigniorage. I expect that's what Edison was talking about. --Tango (talk) 00:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC) Scrap that. On second thoughts, I doubt much of the reserves is actually in currency, they'll be in bonds, so are already in Algebraist's figure. --Tango (talk) 02:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

To add to Tango's point about debt not necessarily a huge problem, bonds issued by governments of developed markets like the U.S. and Western European nations tend to have credit ratings of between A and AAA (anything BBB and higher is considered investment grade, while BB and lower is considered a risk), since their ability to pay off debts on schedule (bonds take anywhere from 6 months to 30 years, possibly longer to mature) is rarely in doubt.

An Alternative to bond issues is a sovereign wealth fund, which typically invests the surplus in a government budget, often in other governments' bonds, and can be used to raise funds for downturns. China's SFW famously invests heavily in US government bonds, and it's especially popular with oil producing nations, who have more money than they know what to do with, but are particularly vulnerable to market volatility and geo-political events. Mosmof (talk) 01:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

100 Essential Thinkers

What's the name of the painting on the cover of this book? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.6.132.190 (talk) 23:17, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

From a Google image search, it looks like a cropped The School of Athens by Raphael. AlexiusHoratius (talk) 23:21, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

August 11

Grilled/toasted cheese

What is it about grilled or toasted cheese that make it so absolutely yummy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.242.64 (talk) 00:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Heating can enhance flavours: the good old Maillard reaction that caramelises sugars, flavour carrying fats (cheese/butter), salt content, soft texture contrast with crunchy, and a dairy-based eating culture = comfort food. Yum! Julia Rossi (talk) 00:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

If you're a big fan of toasted cheese, I'd also recommend a southern New Zealand delicacy, the cheese roll. Grutness...wha? 01:32, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

We have a restaurant around where I live that's surprisingly famous for it's age that specializes in grilled cheese. They've elevated it to a gourmet dish. Here's the menu for your inspiration. -LambaJan (talk) 12:02, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

The main culprit for grilled cheese deliciousness is the Maillard reaction. —D. Monack ^talk 23:15, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

purpose of a toast rack

What is the purpose of a toast rack that makes it better than just piling the stuff on a plate? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.242.64 (talk) 00:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

The main reason Toast racks are used is to stop toast going soggy. The secondary reason they are used predominantly in hotels and other establishments is because these people hate us and want us to have cold toast. Nanonic (talk) 00:27, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

MMM. Shouldn't the article mention their purpose? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.242.64 (talk) 02:11, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Does now. 81.187.153.189 (talk) 07:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Huh. I thought they were decorative. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 02:12, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

If that were their purpose, that would make them the ugliest table decorations in the history of the world. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I have rather a nice pewter toast rack which I use for letters. DuncanHill (talk) 11:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

They are used to allow toast to stand and cool before butter is spread onto them - the idea being that toast is supposed to be crisp on the outside and slightly 'fluffy' inside. Personally I like the butter on as soon as possible (ideally having it applied by the toaster as it 'pops up' thus being instantly buttered and saving me time as well). 194.221.133.226 (talk) 15:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Can you actually get pop up toasters that will butter it as soon as it emerges?--79.76.229.54 (talk) 21:49, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it's just me, but I think our use of toast rack in the article is backwards; it's supposed to be used before the bread has been toasted. To make french toast you need to have stale bread and evenly stale bread will absorb the egg mixture more evenly, resulting in a better final form. Let the bread sit in the toast rack over night so it's ready for french toast in the morning. Matt Deres (talk) 10:42, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Speedfight 2

Can anyone tell me the max speed (preferably in km/h) of a Peageout Speedfight 2? --212.120.246.239 (talk) 01:38, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

It seems that the top speed of a Peugeot Speedfight 2 is around 100 km/h. [9] Fribbler (talk) 12:34, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I forgot to mention I meant the 50cc version --212.120.246.239 (talk) 20:10, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

[Link] The 50cc version appears to get up to about 60-65 km/h (restricted) and about 80-90 de-restricted. Fribbler (talk) 12:40, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

In the UK it would be restricted to 30mph, to qualify as a moped. DuncanHill (talk) 12:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Safe Digital Cameras

With the advancement of digital cameras these days are these types of cameras safe to pass through baggage equipment to put on aircraft??. With film cameras i do know it will damage any undeveloped film. I need some good advice if possible.--logger (talk) 02:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Digital cameras are more or less tiny computers with lenses in them. I don't see any reason why magnetic baggage checkers would mess up the memory. Paragon¹²³²¹ 02:14, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

They should be fine. There will be a sign up in the airport saying what things can't be put through the x-ray, just check that to make sure. --Tango (talk) 02:29, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Why not ask the airport ?86.197.45.20 (talk) 06:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)DT

I have passed my digital camera through airport x-ray scanners more times than I can count, and have never had an issue. I think it's pretty safe. — QuantumEleven 13:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

"Our screening equipment will not affect digital cameras and electronic image storage cards." -- Coneslayer (talk) 16:58, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

And I think it's safe to add that although I no longer use camera film, preferring instead the much cheaper and more convenient use of digital cameras that I have carried through airport x-ray machines without any rsultant problems, I was always assured and always found that any exposed or unexposed film rolls would not be adversely affected either. 92.17.93.127 (talk) 19:53, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

How do you buy football (soccer) team?

My dream. Is to buy heroic people. One that can bring home the World Cup! I dont know how to start this. Endevors hard to start? I expect a sad inheratance soon that will greatly enrich me! If you can tell me WHO to start with, I can thank you.--PedroEnriqueGonzalezDelRio (talk) 04:28, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Any sufficiently wealthy person can buy a football club. For example: Roman Abramovich bought Chelsea, and Thaksin Shinawatra bought Manchester City. However, no single football club can "bring home the World Cup" because it is contested between national teams which cannot be "owned" by a private individual. If you wish to persue a dream of owning a football club, the best approach is to find a club that needs the money and find out if the current owner wishes to sell to you. It is an expensive business, a top club in the Premier League would cost hundreds of millions of pounds, the weekly wage will be huge (with top players earning tens of thousands of pounds every week, the weekly wage bill could easily exceed £1,000,000), and buying new talent can cost millions per player. Astronaut (talk) 06:18, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

But, once bought, your revenues from ticket sales and promotional deals will easily cover that, and then some, provided you maintain a loyal fanbase by winning. -LambaJan (talk) 11:57, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

It should cover it if things go well - it's not uncommon for football teams to get into financial difficulties, though. --Tango (talk) 21:15, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Possibly the easiest way to own or in this case part-own a football club is to join a subscription group such as MyFootballClub who recently purchased Ebbsfleet United F.C.. Nanonic (talk) 21:40, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

To get the world cup your team will need to be a national team. That means you will need to lead a nation. There are two routes you can take: Start a nation (not as hard as you might think, but supremely lame) or command an existing nation (harder, but infinitely more satisfying). Assuming that you choose the later, you will need to establish your unambiguous control over the country. Again, there are two routes you can take: Woo them like a little girl, or take charge like a man. It's up to you. Then you'll want to start assembling the finest football team in the world—no sense taking second best because with only one cup every four years you can't afford to waste any chances. So yeah, seize control of a medium-sized nation, recruit some footballers, sit back and enjoy your well-earned trophy. Plasticup ^T/C 12:55, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Rash after Febrile Convulsion

Hi my 18 month old nephew had a Febrile Convulsion last Saturday night. Around 4 days after he came up in a rash. The Doctors called this Rosalee and said it is not uncommon for a rash to appear after this convulsion. Is this correct and do i have the right name for it? --Osf21 (talk) 08:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Usual comment, we don't offer medical advice, but I think that the word you want is rosacea.--Artjo (talk) 09:02, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Or roseola ... this illustrates why you should ask not us, but your doctors. Ask them to explain it and spell out the word for you, when in doubt. We really can't comment on whether it's not uncommon when talking about a specific case (your nephew) whom we can't see or examine (unlike your doctor) for which we aren't qualified anyway (unlike your doctor). Thank you for understanding that we really cannot comment any further. See Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines/Medical advice and Why not. ---Sluzzelin talk 09:14, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Graffiti

Is there any sorta database of graffiti out there ? I mean we're all pretty anti it i guess, but i remember seeing in Beirut some 19th century stuff and thinking wow, we all like to mark... and i'm sure likewise people in 100+ years will think wow, looky there at that photo of that dodgy Otara dairy wall... I wish they'd preserved that. I guess its so prevalent and socially abhorrent and logistically challenging that actual examples or otherwise aren't kept... ? Boomshanka (talk) 09:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

...and i don't mean the 'flash' stuff (bombing) as seen on the wiki page - just ordinary, everyday, tagging - John Hohepa stuff —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boomshanka (talk • contribs) 09:48, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes. You found it here! Its just that some twat decides to erase some of the more interesting writings from time to time. They will be stored in the archives somewhere though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.155.64 (talk) 11:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Search for it on Google Images. Useight (talk) 22:36, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I love graffiti -- it's calligraphy and endlessly brilliant. Even the tags are inventive and clever. It's only socially abhorrent to people who like beige and non-artist types and people who don't want people risking themselves on railway tracks (fair enough). Unfortunately part of the culture is transgressive and ephemerality is part of the game: the right to "write" over the last guy/girl in one upsmanship. Someone I'd heard of tagged my recycle bin and I felt so honoured. Sorry, I'm carried away... Okay Boomshanka, when's your book on enZed-affiti coming out? Julia Rossi (talk) 23:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Random tagging can be pretty dull and pointless, but if it's pretty creative and has something to say, like the work of Banksy, Blek le Rat and others, then I'm all for it. Astronaut (talk) 11:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Visit your local museum of modern art and you may be able to pick up a few books on graffiti. You cn find plenty online if you'd prefer to order. --Shaggorama (talk) 22:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I too love graffiti. There is a place under a bridge in Kassel, Germany that has some of the most amazing graffiti I have ever seen. --S.dedalus (talk) 01:00, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Kilroy was here Plasticup ^T/C 12:43, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Greece

What do Greeks do for entertainment and recreation? 220.233.83.26 (talk) 09:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

watch the Olympics . Boomshanka (talk) 09:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Complain? — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 22:28, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Drink ouzo? Dance? Break things? DuncanHill (talk) 22:31, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

The same as everyone else? --Masamage ♫ 22:35, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

OOPAH! -LambaJan (talk) 00:27, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

There's a reason why Greek style is so named. On those long languid balmy aromatic evenings, you have to do something to while away the time.  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 22:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Even Mykonos has DJs and glittering bars these days[10] ; ) Julia Rossi (talk) 00:42, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

BED BUG BEETLE

Blood-fed bedbugs.

Hi Everybody, I recentle got woken up at 2:22a.m. with a bite or bites from what looked like a small beetle. When squished with a piece of toilet roll,or placed between a piece of clear tape and squished,it is full of blood. Some seem to have a black liquid also,maybe older beetles. They only seem to come out in the very early hours of the morning,and I have washed and turned the bedding upside down to find any more. Any advice?? Fluter,with calomine lotion all over! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.86.15.15 (talk) 14:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, we don't give medical advice (as it says at the top). If you have a question about what sort of beetle eats people when they go to bed, that is OK - but we can't tell you what is wrong with you or what you need to do about it. A doctor will. (If you pay her.) 89.242.136.83 (talk) 16:24, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I wish to second the no medical advice answer above, and add, thats disgusting! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 16:42, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not seeing a request for medical advice. Anyway, check out the article on bedbugs. - Eron^Talk 16:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Er, how exactly is this medical advice?? Anyway, they might be fleas (do you have pets?). It would also help if you could describe what part of the world you're in, so we can try and I identify the bugs. Best thing to do is throw out your mattress, bedding etc and buy new ones. Also, be hygienic and change and wash your sheets daily, if you can. Of course, if you're in the forest them you should be used to being bitten by all manor of things by now... 79.75.153.179 (talk) 17:49, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Throwing all that out and buying new stuff is an expensive proposition, and might not work. I would say, call a professional first. If you're going to throw out your mattresses, you want to do it only once. The good news is that bedbugs, while disturbing, are not known to be particularly harmful -- I did a little web searching on this a few years ago when I was concerned that they might be around, and it seems that they are not (or were not at the time) seriously implicated as disease vectors. --Trovatore (talk) 09:24, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

(Although, of course, if you or some visitor to your home is allergic, that could be bad -- our bedbug article mentions the possibility of an anaphylactic reaction.) --Trovatore (talk) 18:07, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Do they look anything like the blood-fed bedbugs in the image? — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 22:24, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi Fluteralomine, sounds like it's breeding season for bugs. Pest bombs might work if you strip the bed, and wash the sheets in hot water. Personal insect repellent could tide you over. Next step, the exterminator. Julia Rossi (talk) 23:01, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Beijing 2008

Can one compete in more than one event, say Bob plays Hockey, but is also entered in the swimming, and gymnastics? if there is a limit, what is is? 2 5 20, all events? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 16:41, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

People often compete in more than one event, although it's usually multiple events in the same area (100m sprint and 200m sprint, say). I don't know if you can compete in events in completely different areas - there would be issues with schedules if you can. --Tango (talk) 17:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Historically there have been people who have competed in multiple events. Teddy Flack competed in Tennis and Athletics in 1896 for Australia. Steewi (talk) 01:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

There are some competitors who have switched sports between olympics. Only this morning, I was watching the archery and the commentator remarked that the chinese archer currently 'shooting' had previously played different sports. The commentator was possibly talking about Zhang Juanjuan, though other sports are not mentioned in her article. Astronaut (talk) 11:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Rebecca Romero (UK) won a silver in rowing in Athens 2004, and a gold in cycling at Beijing. Gwinva (talk) 22:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Hair straightening

Hi, this is a follow up to a question I asked earlier, but the archive seems to have a problem. Anyway, the link was this.

Ok, so I have long hair but it's all curly and such, and I want to straighten it. I have a standard straightening iron thing, but I'm clueless on how to use it, or if I need some gel or something. Special technique? Any advice, experiences etc would be welcome. Thanks. 79.75.153.179 (talk) 17:46, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Heat up tongs first. Hair is best slightly damp so when almost dry or spray water into hair, use comb or brush to select some and run the tongs down it a piece at a time until you've done it to all your hair. I thought gadgets had instruction leaflets, no? Needs practice I believe. Julia Rossi (talk) 22:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Straightening hair by ironing it or by "konking" it with lye can be quite destructive of the hair. Perhaps you could find frineds who value you for who you are. Edison (talk) 03:11, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Why the nasty assumption about the poster's friends? Perhaps he just wants to try a different look. Some people find very curly hair inconvenient – keeping long, aggressively curly hair neat and orderly can require a lot of time and effort – but they don't like the look of short hair. In this particular case, the guy just seems interested in growing it long just because he can, so why not help him out, without the helping of attitude? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:38, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, here's a link to the previous discussion]. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:38, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I know a girl with wavy hair whose straight-haired friends very strongly encouraged her to iron her hair so it would be like theirs, to the point it was severly damaged from the constant straightening. Eventually she made new friends who were accepting of her as she is. Hence the response. It was a response from experience, not from theory. Edison (talk) 16:20, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

For all the people that tell me to straighten my hair just so I can look like them there are just as many people that compliment my curly hair. Any random person on the street can have straight hair but curls are much more rare and special. --124.254.77.148 (talk) 10:17, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Career Rut

I work for a large corporation in finance. Im am very bored with my job yet I found that no other careers interest me. However, whenever I am asked to research something, I get excited about the project and try to find whatever I could find then somehow "put it all together" so that it makes sense and in some ways answers the question of the requestor. Are there any careers that are similar to this? --Anilmanohar (talk) 19:10, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

You may wish to consider becoming a pure researcher, such as those employed within Government Departments (I speak here of the UK). Their role is to carry out research into many previously unresearched areas of public and administrative policy and practice, and to produce reports based on their findings, together with statistics, case histories, official sources of reference material etc., etc. In most cases, the researcher/team will close out the report with options/recommendations that will be helpful to the decision makers who commissioned the study in the first place. Subsequently, any decisions, proposals, or policy changes adopted by Heads of Department and/or Ministers that are based partly or wholly on the report's recommendations will have a better chance of being accepted by any scrutinisng body, or even the opposing political parties who may be called upon to vote the proposal into law, than if such proposals were simply put to the floor for debate without any evidence having been sought to justify them. 92.17.93.127 (talk) 19:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

If you like doing research, esp. economic research, there are a large number of think-tanks that do work in that area. It helps if you have statistical chops but even if you don't, you might look into that arena if you enjoy doing research of that sort. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 21:24, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Why not check out www.marketresearch.org.uk/86.211.110.89 (talk) 13:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)DT

Black holes in the solar system?

moved to more appropriate science desk here -->[11] Julia Rossi (talk) 22:52, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

August 12

Strange plant

We found a very strange weed up on our land the other day ([12]) and have not been able to identify it... Any ideas? Sorry for the crappy picture, but all I had at the time was a camera phone. It's rather large for a weed and very, very thorny; everything, from the leaves to the flowers (purple and made up of what appears to be little "bunches"... Not really sure how to describe it) is covered with thorns. We're trying to use goats to clear out some of the weeds on the land and even they wouldn't go near it. --69.146.230.243 (talk) 00:38, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

It's a thistle. DuncanHill (talk) 00:40, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Donkeys will eat thistles, as will some breeds of sheep. DuncanHill (talk) 00:46, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

So will humans -- well, a sort of thistle, anyway. --Trovatore (talk) 00:48, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Huh... I thought that sounded right, but I've never seen one quite this enormous -- it's probably four feet wide and three feet tall, and the flowers are huge. --69.146.230.243 (talk) 01:32, 12 August 2008 (UTC) Ah, just found this page... That's it. I'm positive. It's still pretty frigging big, but that's the one. Thanks for the help, all. --69.146.230.243 (talk) 01:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Just be careful with that judgmental "weed" language. The thistle o' Scotland was famous of auld, wi' its toorie sae snod and its bristles sae bault. — OtherDave (talk) 18:24, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Police officer

When a cop retires, do they get to keep their habiliment, badge, truncheon, police radio, gun, etc.? I was hoping the article (or police) might give a little information on that, but they doesn't. Could hardly find any information on the Internet. Anyone know? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 04:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

It probably depends on where they are. What country are you in? --Tango (talk) 04:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

US. I read that in Columbus (don't know which one) you receive a "retirement badge". How is it here? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 05:13, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I would be very surprised if a former police officer was allowed to keep his police equipment. Imagine if a cop took early retirement, they could go around posing as an active officer - impersonating a police officer is usually a serious offence. Astronaut (talk) 12:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

and what about the car, that would be cool, no more jams, just flick that blue wailer and "bye-bye New Jersey, I've become airborne" Richard Avery (talk) 14:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Even in the U.S. it will depend on which department you work for. Some supply most of your gear, others require you to buy it yourself. I doubt that anywhere you get to keep your bagde or ID, but if you have to buy your own gun, nightstick, hand cuffs, bullet-proof vest, etc., you keep them. Rmhermen (talk) 14:07, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I expect that a retired cop in the US gets some sort of ID stating the fact, so that when another cop anywhere in the US starts to write him up for a parking or moving violation, a flash of the ID will generally elicit professional courtesy. Edison (talk) 16:17, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

No, that's what the fraternal order of police thingy that they put on their bumper [or (illegally but who's going to do anything about it) on their license plate] is for. --Random832 (contribs) 16:54, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that if you go through the Maryland State Lodge of the Fraternal Order of Police, the specialty plates mentioned on the State of Maryland Motor Vehicle Administration site are not actually illegal. — OtherDave (talk) 18:48, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

russian poet

could you name the russian poet who won the nobel prize died recently? thank you124.43.49.186 (talk) 07:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

On the assumption that this isn't homework, you're probably looking for Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn. He did write a small amount of poetry, but he was best known as a novelist and historian. -- JackofOz (talk) 07:08, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Joseph Brodsky was the poet winning it in 1987, died 12 years ago. Julia Rossi (talk) 01:26, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

How to post a personal view on the Internet for Free

The headline speaks for itself; I am trying to find an outlet, in regards to a certain website, that expresses some caution to other potential viewers because of the content this site has. I don't know how to make you understand, it has nothing to do with porn or politics, however the content on this site is truly unpleasant and wanted to warn others about it. I've done everything I could to settle the matter, but all efforts were futile. So my question is this: is there a way or site where I can post my views, freely, like creating a website or something? All I want is to post a simple message; how might I do that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.254.47.173 (talk) 08:08, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

You could setup a blog through a site like www.blogger.com and warn about the site - though the chances are nobody more than a handful of people will read it. To gain greater exposure you could try by linking to your blog on a website like www.digg.com and hope that enough people agree/read it (and it receives enough diggs) to make it up the list and that will - as a result - increase readership. You could also consider trying search-engine optimisation so that when individuals search for the website in question your 'anti' site comes up in the first page of google-results and thus will potentially get more readers too. It won't be easy and will take a fair bit of work but it is possible to use the internet to get your opinion heard by thousands/millions. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 08:44, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Identity of paypal sellers

If a seller tell me that he is, say John Smith and that his paypal is johnsmith@email4u.com, how can I proof his identity?Mr.K. (talk) 10:39, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

There's really no way to do that. What his e-mail happens to be has nothing to do with this actual name. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 12:28, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I know that your email can be any possible name. However, if paypal verifies its users, is there any way to check basic information about a seller? Like address and such. Mr.K. (talk) 10:21, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

If you have bought something over eBay or Yahoo you can ask for the contact information of the seller, otherwise, in case of doubt I won't buy from a random seller. 80.58.205.37 (talk) 11:24, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Type o negative

In one of thier songs, Who will save the sane, they mention avogadro's number 3.141592653. What is the significance thereof? Or any other info thanks. Zionist193.115.175.247 (talk) 13:01, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

We have an article, Avagadro's number, which may help answer your question. By the way, 3.14159263 is not Avagadro's number, but rather pi. DuncanHill (talk) 13:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, allow me to rephrase the question if i might, why is this used in the song, more than once. What is the significance of the number to the band or song. Thanks

I consider myself to be somewhat of a fan of the band, and while their lyrics can mean many things, I found our article about the album World Coming Down has some interesting information about that song: "Who Will Save the Sane?" incorporates Peter Steele reciting the first eight digits from the mathematical number pi (3.1415926). At the same time during this song, Kenny Hickey's melody is actually 31415926 in notated guitar tablature (the guitar being tuned in Drop D). cheers, 10draftsdeep (talk) 13:53, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

UK maps

My partner and I are planning a trip to the UK next month. We will be hiring a car and traveling through England, Wales, and Scotland. I have a slightly out-of-date (c. 2003) A-Z Road Atlas of Great Britain, which has maps of the entire island at 6 miles to the inch. That works for mapping routes from one major town to another. Unfortunately, it's not so good for mapping routes from one out-of-the-way rural place to another, and we will be visiting ancient and medieval sites in lots of out-of-the-way places. My A-Z Atlas shows most of those places, and shows some of the minor rural roads around them (using very fine and faint lines). However, when I zoom in on an online map site such as Google Maps or Multimaps, I see that my atlas does not show every rural road, and if I were to use the atlas to navigate minor rural roads, it would be easy to mistake one left turn for another. Also the A-Z Atlas shows the centers of major towns, but it does not show the urban road network outside the center in any detail, and it does not show minor towns in any detail (and we will be visiting or passing through lots of minor towns.) An obvious alternative would be to make a list of all areas not adequately covered by the A-Z Atlas and to print out 40 or 50 maps from Multimaps or Google. However, my dying home printer is not up to the job, and using the printer where I work for such a large non-work-related project might attract unwanted scrutiny. Also, I don't have access to color printers, and black-and-white maps of unnamed roads in rural areas are not so easy to follow. Ordnance Survey maps are an option, but an expensive and inefficient one, since the areas where I need the most help tend to be in areas along the edges of 2 or 3 OS maps. Can anyone recommend an inexpensive source of relatively detailed maps of the UK? Thanks. Marco polo (talk) 13:27, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

It is possible to buy Ordnance Survey maps centered on anywhere you like (thus avoiding the "edge of sheet" problem) but they cost about £16 for a Landranger sheet (1:50 000) - this compares to about £7 for an ordinary Landranger sheet. The OS also has a "get a map" service online, but the area viewable is limited. Once in Britain you may be able to find second-hand OS maps in charity shops, for about £1-2 each. Michelin produce maps of the UK - they are not as detailed as the OS, but are designed for motorists, so may be suitable for your purposes. I would add that road signage in the UK is generally pretty good, so it is actually quite hard to get really lost. DuncanHill (talk) 14:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The AA have an online routefinder service, which will give you a printable list of directions to follow, they are not bad but in my experience seem to take one on unnecessarily long routes, and are propbably best simply as a suggested route, not as one to be followed exactly. DuncanHill (talk) 14:07, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Local Tourist Information Offices may have free maps of the areas they serve, these will not be as detailed as the OS, but are likely to shew most attractions. One can also buy County atlases (produced by the OS & by other mapping companies) which will shew varying levels of detail - the most detailed will shew every road, others will be less detailed, but may include town plans at a higher scale. Overall, though, I would say that the OS maps are far and away the best for detailed navigation in the country, and the individual Geographers' A to Z books for cities. DuncanHill (talk) 14:21, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Alternatively, you could buy a sat nav system, or, as you will have a passenger, a mobile device with web capabilities to view the websites mentioned above. Warofdreams talk 14:26, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

... or you could just buy a larger scale road atlas. Philip's do a 3-miles to 1 inch road atlas; Collins "Superscale Road Atlas" is 2.5 miles to 1 inch; and AA do a "Close Up Truckers Atlas" at 1.5 miles to 1 inch. Gandalf61 (talk) 14:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The standard Landranger 1:50,000 scale OS maps are excellent and at £7 are a lot cheaper than the the bespoke OS map-making service mentioned by DuncanHill. They show pretty much everything of interest including inaccessible crags, ruins, castles, churches, etc. and all roads/tracks down to something too small to ride a horse down! However, not every street is shown in towns (the streets are not named either), and each sheet only covers a 40 miles x 40 miles square (or maybe it's 40 km x 40 km?) of the country; so 204 sheets cover the whole country. Check them out at Amazon.

That said, there are other maps available. The 6 miles per inch map from A-Z sounds particularly poor, while the road atlases published by the AA, RAC, Philips and Collins have a better scale and are readily available in gas stations and supermarkets (you can get a sneak peek at Amazon). Astronaut (talk) 15:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

...and as someone else has already pointed out, british roads are well signposted (with the possible exception of the generic "The North" or "All through traffic" that you will see on occasions) - I really don't think you will get really lost. Keep an look out for the brown "tourist information" signs. Astronaut (talk) 15:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Or use a combination of maps and road-signs. If the places you are visiting are visited by others the chances are they will be signposted - probably in those nice brown-signposts that you get. Seriously though you don't need a map that shows you every single road, you need a map that shows you the major 'numbered' roads and you can work out the rest using a bit of logic, directional sense and using of road-signs. Of course this is all coming from someone who refers to himself as a 'human sat nav' (and no that doesn't mean constantly directing you the wrong way!). 194.221.133.226 (talk) 15:38, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Do also have a good read of Road signs in the United Kingdom before you come - our signs are quite clear, but there are some differences from those in the Boston area, and with a little knowledge of the conventions you should find your driving experience here much more pleasant. DuncanHill (talk) 15:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

You can also read the Highway Code online at [13]. DuncanHill (talk) 15:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The Great thing about living in Great Britain (good one eh?), is how small we are (I am only 5'6"). But seriously, from John o'Groats at the top of Scotland to Land's End at the bottom of England is only about 1000 miles - and from East to West is rarely more than 100 miles, and usually, much less. So if you fix an image of the whole island in your head as you drive, and have a rough idea of where you want to be at the end of each leg of your journey, then as others above have suggested, you can never be far out. Sure, buy a cheap SatNav or a more up to date map when you get here - you will get good ones for less than £5 in any bookstore - but if you are not working to any fixed schedule, enjoy the adventure. As I suggested above, this is a Great country for getting lost in, because you know you will never be far from the nearest town, village, hamlet or motorway service station - and we are so so friendly and helpful. You will just love us - and like many visitors before you, you probably won't want to leave. 92.19.39.172 (talk) 22:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

You've had lots of advice, but I'm here with mine anyway. As Astronaut mentioned, every garage, service station and supermarket has good maps for about £5-7, scale usually 4 miles to an inch, and which generally cover every road and place you might need. But if you're really keen on detail, then Philips Navigator is the one you want: "The main road maps are at 1.5 miles to 1 inch (3 miles to 1 inch in the Scottish Highlands) and are extra clear and detailed, showing even the smallest roads and lanes that are omitted from other atlases. Every roundabout, junction and slip-road is shown in detail on main roads and motorways. In country areas, thousands of individual houses and farms are marked, along with footpaths and tracks." -- follow link for more detail. Gwinva (talk) 23:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

If you travelling fairly extensively then buying individual maps may be a bit of a pain and expensive. Does your car-hire place rent Sat-Navs? As that would make things a lot easier. If not then this company [14] rent them out and as far as I can tell would deliver to a hotel, although I have no idea if the company is any good. Franmars (talk) 09:48, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

No need to buy individual maps. All the road atlases mentioned so far cover the whole of Great Britain in one volume - some will cover Northen Ireland and RoI too. Don't forget that the area of GB is only 80,000 square miles so even at 1.5 miles to the inch a 200 page A3 atlas can easily cover the whole island. Gandalf61 (talk) 12:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah, Marco Polo is still travelling, having been from Venice to China and back again during medieval times!78.149.94.253 (talk) 14:54, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Link doesn't work

There's a link on a website that doesn't work. When ever I try to click on this link or similar links on this website nothing happens..well just on my eeePC, it works fine on other computers. Anyway, the eepc is the only pc i can use at the moment so i was wondering if someone could just give me the url the link links to.

Go to http://www.surfthechannel.com/info/Movies/Movies_all/83265/Get+Smart.html?aid=116409 and more or less in the centre there should be a link which says "Go To External Site". This is the link I want. Thanks. --212.120.246.239 (talk) 13:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

It's a Flash link to a pop-up window, so you've probably got either Flash or pop-ups disabled. However, Now that I have clicked on the link, I regret to inform you that it goes to a page that announces "This video is unavailable.". APL (talk) 14:14, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

An alternative solution

Although not quite as scientifically advanced a solution as Soylent Green to the problem of human body disposal are there any places in the world that use Biochar as the means of human or animal body disposal? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.100.0.88 (talk) 14:53, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The article says "Current biochar projects are small scale". So, yes, it is used, probably at agricultural universities and other research facilities. This is not something that would be used on humans, though, because of the strict regulations on how human bodies are to be disposed. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 20:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it odd how the disposal of human bodies is so restricted? Sticking them in the ground next to our houses and groundwater seems like the worst possible idea, and yet it is the preferred method. Then we like to expend energy burning them when we could actually reclaim the body's energy. Plasticup ^T/C 12:28, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I lived not far from the cemetery my grandparents, uncles and aunts were buried in. It had a stream running through it. The stream originated in the cemetery as a spring and about half way through the cemetery a lot of stringy slimy yuck was growing. As the water would passed a childhood friend remarked, "Look, there goes part of your grandmother!" ...yeeooowhh.

Then after my dog died and we decided to have her cremated. Another friend saw a wisp of smoke and said "Look, there goes Elizabeth right there!"

All I need now to round things out and to make my life complete is to hear another friend say "Oh wow, did you feel that crunch?. We must have just stepped on your mother." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.100.0.88 (talk) 16:32, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Operation Reinhard

Although Reinhard Heindrich dies in Czechoslovakia in '42 Operation Reinhard was named after him, so would he have accrude bad Karma for was was to transpire? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 15:47, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I think that Reinhard Heydrich managed to accrue more than sufficient bad karma (if one believes in such a thing) in his lifetime. DuncanHill (talk) 15:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

If this were the language desk, I would be tempted to congratulate the OP for an enrichment of our linguistic resources. "Accrude" seems a useful term for some collections of unkarmatical humanoid "achievements" in the Olympic event of the Master Race. --62.47.129.88 (talk) 20:07, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Oops, --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:09, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Plane crashes in which the survivors are stranded for a long period of time

How many have there been? Flight 571 is the only one I can think of. 220.235.149.63 (talk) 16:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about plane crashes, but The Straight Dope reported on the notion of people being shipwrecked for a long time. -- KathrynLybarger (talk) 19:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

What is this car?

Image:Viatura da policia militar rodoviaria de são paulo isoesdeumpm.blogspot.commaxdias.JPG - I'm pretty sure it's a Vauxhall/Opel, just not sure what? ninety:one 20:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

It's listed in the article Police car as "GM Astra Sedan, Highway Military Police patrol - São Paulo State, Brazil (Polícia Rodoviária do Estado de São Paulo)". To be honest it looks more like a Vectra than an Astra to me. Nanonic (talk) 21:46, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Can't believe I missed that, that's where I found the gdamn image. Cheers! ninety:one 22:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The trouble is - it doesn't really look like either an Astra or a Vectra. It doesn't give me great confidence that the Military Police (Brazil) article says it's an Opel Astra when it's clearly got the GM/Chevrolet badge on the front instead of the 'Z' emblem that Opels ship with. Admittedly the Opel Astra and the Chevy Astra are identical except for the badge. But the shape of the headlamps doesn't fit any of the cars in either our Astra or Vectra articles - they all have a sharp point towards the back end of the car - and that photo shows a more rounded headlamp. I think it's more like an Impala - which makes more sense because Chevy sell a special version of the Impala to police in the US. It makes more sense that Brazil would buy an existing police-special Impala than to go for the Astra or Vectra and have to convert it themselves. (It's a terrible condemnation of modern car design - that even with an almost inexhaustible supply of photos, the darned things are SO BORING that you can't tell one from another! Yet another reason I drive a MINI.) SteveBaker (talk) 02:17, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Methane Digestors

Are there any electricity producing methane digestors made for a small farm? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.119.61.7 (talk) 21:40, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

To produce electricity from methane I suggest you burn it in an engine then couple that to a generator. Or did you mean a digestor for producing methane from waste matter--79.76.184.142 (talk) 00:34, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

See Biogas article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.184.142 (talk) 01:50, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Using a fuel cell would probably be a better idea than burning it in an internal combustion engine. A typical converted gasoline generator will need a constant flow of gas to keep the engine running - if you generate less methane than it needs, it'll stop and you'll have the hassle of restarting it. A fuel cell converts the gas directly into electricity - no moving parts, nothing much to go wrong. Look (for example) at section 3.3 of this document. Also this one and this one. SteveBaker (talk) 01:43, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

August 13

Scared, frightened, confused, and unsure what is suppose to happen next

I got word today that my mom plans to divorce my dad. My parents are in there fifty's and the news caught me completely off guard becuase they had until today been happily married for just shy of thirty years. I suspect that this abrupt shift may have come about as a result of my mother's MS, which was diagnosed a few years back. I'm the oldest son from the marriage (22 years old) and would rather not see this marriage end, so I intend to fight it to the best of my abilities (which I reliase may be hard since the divorce will be between mom and dad, not me and mom or me and dad). Is there anything I can do/say that may encourage one or both parties to stay togather? Has anyone else gone through this? Can some one tell me what to expect from all this? Any help - anything at all - would be apreciated. 75.56.179.62 (talk) 01:19, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Reference Desk isn't really suited to giving advice on things like this. There are probably helplines you can ring for advice - what country are you in? The advice I would give is not to try and fight it, that won't work. You need to try and help your parents make the right decision. It may turn out the right decision is to divorce - it may be better than staying in an unhappy marriage. Things happen and people change, even after 30 years, sometimes there isn't anything anyone can do. Your best bet is to talk to them and try and get them to talk to eachother. Get them to discuss what's wrong and consider all the options. Try to avoid taking sides - if they do end up getting divorced, you don't want to end up estranged from one of them. You mention you're the eldest son, which suggests you have siblings - you may be able to support eachother through this difficult time, remember they're going through exactly the same thing as you. Good luck! --Tango (talk) 01:51, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

As Tango says, this isn't the kind of thing the Ref Desk is at its best, but as someone whose parents got divorced, married other people, and got divorced again let me put in my two cents.

A lot of relationships end. You really need to just bite the bullet and accept it -- it sucks, but it's not the end of the world. If your parents want to get a divorce, chances are it's not a whim, but something they've thought about for a good while now. Frankly, they're probably not having a good time with it either, and the last thing they need is you going nuts over this. I think you should take a deep breath and try to look at it like this: it doesn't change anything really important between you and your parents. It doesn't make them love you any less or make you love them any less. It doesn't mean they can't get along in the future (and one factor affecting that is probably going to be how easy or difficult you make it for them), even if they don't share the same address. It doesn't mean that the years they spent together were a lie or devoid of meaning, and it doesn't invalidate any of your happy memories. The success or significance of a relationship isn't determined solely by how or when it ends. (Honestly, I think it's kinda depressing that what is traditionally considered to be a successful relationship ends in someone's death.) If they don't want to be married anymore, even if you could force them to stay together, it wouldn't make them happy. It might preserve a comfortable illusion for you, but, y'know. They're your parents, but they're also human beings with wants and needs and the right to make the decisions they need to make to be happy.

So, what can you do? You can certainly suggest counceling and try to find out what's wrong and see if you can help them out, but the first basic requirement of that is that you're capable of putting your own panic aside and deal with the issue with some degree of objectivity -- and that means accepting, right from the start, that they may have a good reason for doing this. Also, it may simply be none of your business. I mean, it affects you, absolutely, but they're the ones in the marriage. It's a cliché, but all you can do is love 'em and support 'em. There's no reason a divorce should ruin your family, even if it changes it. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 08:40, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I'm sorry you've had such a horrible shock. News like this knocks the bottom out of everything we thought we knew about the way the world works, whether we're five years old or fifty, so it's not surprising you're upset and confused. But two things you say are very revealing and you may need to think about them further. Your parents have been "happily married" for nearly thirty years - you may find this is not as clear-cut as you think, hence the current situation. As a parent, I am aware that my children think they know a great deal about my husband's and my relationship, and I also know exactly how much they haven't the first clue about, and probably never will. And whilst you personally would "rather not see the marriage end" and intend to "fight" the divorce, this isn't your relationship - it's theirs; and you can't force them to be happy together just because it makes you feel better. I'm guessing from your language you're in the USA, so I'm not sure what relationship counselling services are available to your parents, or to you and your siblings, but all I can suggest from my own experience with two messy family divorces is the following:

(1) Keep talking and don't take sides. Make sure your parents both know that they will not lose you because of this. If you are frightened by the prospect of such a major change after all these years, think how they must feel! (2) Try to help your family reach a new stable situation as soon as possible, be it together or apart. The longer the uncertainty and instability last, the more frightened and unhappy everyone will be, and the more chance there is of conflict. 3) Remember that this is not the end of the world. Things will probably be different at the other end of this, but they can still be stable and even happy in a new way, if everyone does their best to help make them so. Your family may be changed by this, but it does not have to be broken.

Best wishes to you and your family. I hope things work out. Karenjc 09:21, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Try and see it from their point of view. Getting divorced at 50, especially after 30 years of marriage, is not a decision that they will make lightly. Your mom must have some very strong reasons to be making such a drastic change—maybe she wants to talk about it. In any event, it is likely that one or both of them is/are deeply unhappy and they have decided that this is the only way to rectify it. Your parents are people too, with needs and feelings like the rest of us. This is going to be harder on them than it will be on you. My best advice is for you to try and understand why they are doing this. In the process you might come to appreciate your parents in a whole new light, or at least be convinced that despite the pain it is ultimately the right decision. Plasticup ^T/C 12:17, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

If it makes you feel any better, my parents did the same thing at about the same time (and it was my mother who instigated it, similarly). I was rather sullen about it for maybe half a year, and not the most pleasant person to be around, but after that I came to accept it, and in the end I think it was for the better for them. My mother has since moved on with other things in her life, my father recently remarried and is totally happy (with his frankly better-matched new wife).

There is no purpose in "fighting it". It will only cause you more pain in the long run, and could run a schism between you and one of your parents that is unnecessary. Better to try and make sense of it from your mother's point of view, and to help your father cope with it. He'll rebound.

In my case, I was aided in the fact that I no longer lived at home. My younger sister was still in high school, though, and she suffered more from the instability of the situation. Now that she's long out of the house (has since graduated from college), she's fine with it too.

Try not to take it personally. Try to see their side of things. Try not to take sides. Try not to create any lasting damage between you and either of your parents. Over time, you won't feel hurt or shocked by it anymore. It has been maybe six years since my parents broke up, and frankly, it's just not an issue for me anymore. In my case, both of my parents have benefited from their decision in the long term. My father is much happier now than he was when he was married to my mother, because her unhappiness trickled down in many ways in their day-to-day lives in a way that is only visible after the fact. My mother is much happier being on her own—she's gone off and started to live the life she always dreamed she would want to live. You need to start thinking of your parents not so much as "Mom and Dad", as a symbolic entity that serves as the anchor for what you know of "the Family", but as two adult human beings, two people not very different from yourself.

Here's my only real advice: talk to someone about it, someone you trust. I made the mistake of holding it in and really not telling anybody about it for maybe a year or so. I justified this to myself by saying that it was my business and no one else's, and it made me very upset to talk about it. But in retrospect I see this didn't help me any—that only by talking to people about it was I able to make sense of it, and to come to accept it for what it was and to understand what it wasn't. Don't hold it in—get it out there. Everything looks scarier in the dark—once it's in the light you'll be better able to evaluate it. I imagine posting this on here is one step in that, but probably a fairly early one. Keep at it. You'll make it. They'll make it. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 16:49, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Chances are they (individually or severally) would not have much success telling you who to have or not have a relationship with. Likewise you cannot have much success telling them who to love. Sometimes when people divorce it is a shock to one of them. Other times it is just a recognition of something that has already happened. They will each still be your parent. Try to work through this with them and maintain a relationship with each. Best wishes. Edison (talk) 04:42, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

A good place to discuss serious issues is on xkcd's Dear SB - http://forums.xkcd.com/viewforum.php?f=48 Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 09:10, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

These things are rarely sudden decisions. Considering your age - it's perfectly possible that your parents have been staying together through an increasingly difficult relationship for many years in order not to upset you...going through the education system...getting your first job, etc. Perhaps they decided that once you hit that magical 21 years old that they could finally do what they'd wanted to do years ago. I honestly don't think you should interfere. The natural first reaction is to try to keep them together - but they don't WANT to be kept together - if they did, they wouldn't be doing this. Best to assure them both that you'll support whatever they decide - and (most important) that neither of them are going to "lose" you. This is going to be tough on both of them. Interfering can't possibly end well and taking sides would be an utter disaster. By the time people get around to using "the D word" - it's all over. SteveBaker (talk) 01:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

What is this called?

What is the name of the disorder where is person pulls out their hair and then consumes it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.101.5.76 (talk) 01:38, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Trichophagia - Eron^Talk 01:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Then there's pica, which is eating of non-food items, which includes trichophagia. StuRat (talk) 16:14, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

id call it gross —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.188.139.77 (talk) 02:00, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Why? Cats do it all the time. But then they puke up the fur ball--79.76.229.54 (talk) 19:54, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The frequency of occurrence of a phenomenon is not related to its grossitude. -- JackofOz (talk) 01:31, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

For example. - Eron^Talk 13:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

What's with the back door at Borders?

I know other places have a back door, but for some reason Borders stands out the most. By stand out, I mean stick out like a sore thumb by trying too hard not to draw attention. Like the certain types of quiet kids that always get noticed despite thier silence, it screams for attention. This door is not open to the public. It has no handle on the outside and always leads to a grassy area by the highway. It isn't an emergency exit, there's no sign above it, and nobody seems to use it, or look at it! It's the epitimy of a "mystery door" (Or perhaps a magic one, ha ha?...) It's driving me crazy! Would someone who works at Borders please explain this before I snap and push the damn thing open! The last thing I need is a disorderly conduct charge. --Dr. Carefree (talk) 03:46, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. Is it a green door? - Eron^Talk 04:52, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Which, of course, begs the question: What's Behind the Green Door? Surely the answer can't be as mundane as "the bookstore", although "the outside world" at least offers more possibilities.

Atlant (talk) 22:34, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Does it provide access to L-space? DuncanHill (talk) 22:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps it is a door staff use for leaving after the store closes? Presumably it is an emergency exit-door? Or perhaps the door is used for ushering in 'celebs' when they come to do book signings? I've literally no idea why but hey-ho it's fun to speculate. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 07:40, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

What Borders are you talking about? My local Borders in Cambridge has three doors, all open to the public. Algebraist 10:39, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The rear doors I have seen in large bookstores are for the unloading of product from trucks, or sometimes for the entry and exit of employees, especially after the store closes. From your description, it isn't clear whether you are discussing a specific Borders, or all of them; for example, none of the Borders stores in my city connect to a 'grassy area by the highway,' as far as I recall. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 10:41, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I used to work at a Barnes and Nobles and the back door there leads into the Receiving department, which is just a big room where you open boxes, scan in the inventory, and set it up for distribution around the store for the next morning. You also handle other mail-related functions back there (like sending books back to the publisher, or stripping the covers off of books and sending those back). It's an incredibly uninteresting area of the bookstore (and a pretty dull job, incidentally—it's totally apt that if you work back there you are officially known as "a Receiver", as you "take it" from the corporation all day long). I imagine Borders is probably pretty similar in that respect. For the record, we never used the back door for entry and exit of employees at my Barnes and Noble (except for lunch breaks, mid-day comings and goings, etc.)—I don't think you could turn on/off the alarm from there? We always went out the front door. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 15:24, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

hi

want to know about love where i find it in wikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.225.3.76 (talk) 07:37, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Love. Karenjc 08:27, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

You might find some love and affection at WP:MENTOR. I have already found all the love I need. I suggest avoiding WP:AfD, WP:DR, WP:RfC, and WP:RFA—no love there. Plasticup ^T/C 12:06, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Check out WikiLove and Wikipedia:No terms of endearment too. ---Sluzzelin talk 12:31, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Human behaviour

What is the name of subject relating the human's natural activities as behaviour —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.46.126.117 (talk) 08:15, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

anthropology and cultural anthropology I think are what you are after. You would also be interested in psychology and sociology 194.221.133.226 (talk) 08:58, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

If by "natural activities" you mean "activities universally done by humans regardless of culture and time" then you may want to check out the book Human Universals by anthropologist Donald Brown. It is an attempt to catalog traits that are universal to all human societies. Sub-disciplines that attempt to determine which activities are universal (and their possible adaptive value or reason for evolving) include: Evolutionary Psychology, Sociobiology (also including Sociology more generally), all of Anthropology, and Cross-cultural psychology.--droptone (talk) 12:33, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

There is also ethology, the scientific study of animal behavior. Humans are animals, too! — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 14:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Stationery code in NZ?

What is the name of the naming system used in New Zealand to label different exercise books and paper pads? For example 14B8 is 7mm lined A4 loose leaf refill; 3B1 is a little 7mm lined note book; 1B5 is 7mm lined soft-cover exercise book and 1J5 is a 5mm grid soft-cover exercise book. They seem to be used only in NZ and I think it's quite a curiosity having a standard on something often neglected. --antilived^{T | C | G} 09:47, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Official name of the system? NZS 8132:1984! It's a New Zealand Standard. As you note, it's designed to make identification of stationery easy. Gwinva (talk) 00:08, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

See New Zealand standard for school stationery -- SGBailey (talk) 07:49, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

WHAAOE! --antilived^{T | C | G} 08:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I was kicking myself that I never thought to look within WP for the answer, but I see the article is new. Yet again the Ref Desk comes to the rescue of WP! Gwinva (talk) 22:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Minor injuries

Whenever there is an accident in the news you always hear that so many people suffered only "minor injuries". What counts as a minor injury? Stubbing your toe? Breaking your arm? How minor does an injury have to be to get a mention? --124.254.77.148 (talk) 10:09, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I found a hospital information page here that lists some minor injuries: things that you might want treatment for, but which aren't life-threatening, like cuts and sprains. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 10:20, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I suggest that there's also an implication that it will get better reasonably soon. If you lose the use of a body part, for example, that's not minor. I'd guess fractures would be on the border between minor and not-minor, depending on who's counting. --Anonymous, 03:35 UTC, August 14, 2008.

And which bit is broken!86.197.20.168 (talk) 15:36, 14 August 2008 (UTC)DT

troll alternatives

What other sites could be recomended, that are similar to wiki ref desk, where numerous people ask numerous strange, wierd, and interesting questions. A place where one can be sent to troll rather than here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 16:33, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Almost any internet forum? --98.217.8.46 (talk) 17:05, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

4chan? — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 17:18, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Yahoo Answers. Corvus cornix_talk 18:24, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

And don't forget The National Association of Gasbags. — OtherDave (talk) 22:09, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Yahoo answers would be quite appropriate. It's already full of genuine idiots; a troll would feel at home. 24.76.161.28 (talk) 07:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Speaking from experience, I can tell you that it is the fact that the Reference Desk takes itself so seriously which makes it a prime target for trolling. What fun would trolling yahoo answers be, when it is already full of sililar people? Also, I often find myself actually learning something through Wikipedia, which I guess is an added bonus. 212.85.21.254 (talk) 12:21, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah you got to be pretty clever to get a troll post to bring more than ten replies over about 5 days 8-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.203.9 (talk) 02:28, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

management

How is management becomes a process? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.54.67.78 (talk) 17:18, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The article management process has many links to proceed through. Julia Rossi (talk) 00:38, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Scrabble dictionaries

Are there words in the TWL dictionary that aren't in the SOWPODS dictionary? I see that the latter is significantly larger, but even if there's one or two, I'd like to know. Cheers, Angus Lepper^{(T, C, D)} 17:31, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

In a related question, are there any large word lists (not necessarily used for Scrabble) other than these two? I'm trying to build a reasonably comprehensive dictionary for an anagram-finder. Angus Lepper^{(T, C, D)} 17:39, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I checked using this SOWPODS dict and this TWL '06 dict, and the answer is: no, ALL TWL words (178690) seem to be in the SOWPODS list (267750 words). -- Aeluwas (talk) 18:42, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

See http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Frequency_lists -- SGBailey (talk) 20:11, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The enable2k word list (http://personal.riverusers.com/~thegrendel/software.html) contains 818 words that are missing from TWL06 (including several "ANTI*" and "UN*" words like antibaryon, anticapitalists, antilogarithmic, unabbreviated, unescorted, and unforgiven; some stuff that really doesn't seem that obscure like breadsticks, carsickness, descramble, drownings, overstrike, and stirringly; and some that are probably better spelled with a hyphen or a space or a capital letter like bald-headed, belly button, Neanderthal, and Southerner).

Of those 818, 462 are also missing from sowpods, including a bunch of pluralized "ANTI*" and "NON*" words like antisubversives and nonexplosives; the surprising (how did this not get into sowpods?) babysitter; breadstick (singular) although breadsticks (plural) is in sowpods; many more examples of questionable word construction, unhyphenation, and uncapitalization like beautifuler, color-blind, and Crayola; and even some short words that could be useful on the board like assed, clit, and dickys.

These counts don't include the words of more than 15 letters found in enable2k (4262 of them), which aren't in the Scrabble lists because they wouldn't fit on the board. There are other words that can't ever be played in Scrabble, like pizzazz. There's only 1 Z and 2 blanks so a word with 4 Z's is unplayable, but it's in TWL06 and sowpods for some reason, so that class of words apparently doesn't contribute to the differences between enable2k and TWL06/sowpods.

P.S. Aeluwas's word counts were off by one. TWL06 has 178691 words and sowpods has 267751. Those files have no line ending on their final lines, so if you wc -l'ed them you missed the last word. --tcsetattr (talk / contribs) 01:27, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Shouting out when in extreme pain

Why does this seem to help some people? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.229.54 (talk) 19:52, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Don't know exactly how it's helpful, but it's an involuntary reflex when pain comes by surprise or becomes intolerable. Maybe at a primal level it serves to bring attention to the need for help; or as an emotional release in challenging situations to pre-empt pain (eg in martial arts sports). Julia Rossi (talk) 00:43, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Personally, screaming at the top of my lungs whilst dancing around waving my thumb that just got smashed with a hammer helps distract me from the searing pain. But I suppose that violates WP:OR, doesn't it? ;) --Alinnisawest(talk) 01:16, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Get's the crybabies sympathy. Edison (talk) 04:36, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

It's only WP:OR if you do it to yourself - if I hit you with the hammer and carefully document what happens as a result in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, then it's OK for you to write about it. I have a range of hammer sizes and weights here - we're going to need graph paper and a slide-rule. When are you free? SteveBaker (talk) 00:52, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Youre also going to need a calibrated sound level meter to record the volume of the WAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!! when you hit the thumb (or other body part) with varying (calibrated) impulses. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.203.9 (talk) 01:04, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Bicycles

How the hell do we ride them without damaging our (esp men) genital parts . ie what part of our bodies actually support our weight?. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.229.54 (talk) 23:45, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

This part. - Eron^Talk 00:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

A cutaway racing saddle does not support most of the buttoxks, but there seems to be a pelvic bones around there that the saddle slices between. However i feel there is still a lot of (unhealthy) pressure on the crotch.--79.76.203.9 (talk) 16:51, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's my cheeky answer: They make a seat that's split in two, with room in between for your kibbles 'n bits. However, I don't know whether this seat is actually effective or just a bum steer. StuRat (talk) 00:05, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

So it's just a haunch? OtherDave (talk) 01:54, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Watching the road race (Olympics) and wondering why the seat is so small and uncomfortable looking. It must be hell on the coccyx. Is there a reason for this? Julia Rossi (talk) 00:32, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I dont think the mens coccyxs(?) touch the saddle as they are always bending forward. But it could be hell on the cocks and balls! Hence the original Q —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.203.9 (talk) 16:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course, you must know that Wikipedia no doubt has an article on this. See Bicycle saddle, esp. Bicycle_saddle#Crotch_pressure. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 00:50, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

August 14

Swimming World Records

Why are swimming world records broken quite fequently, whereas track and field world records can stand for more than a decade without being broken. Quite a few swimming world records have been broken at the Olympics so far, wheras in the athletics there might be 1 at most world records broken. Why is this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.35.93 (talk) 00:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Likely because of advances in both swim gear and pools- for example, many people are attributing the success of Michael Phelps to the design of the swimming pool (it's both deeper and wider than an ordinary one, thus creating less turbulence) and his swimsuit (or whatever they call it professionally) which has a new design to lessen drag. But in above-ground sports, slight changes in equipment don't affect the athletes as much- for example, a new brand of silk shorts is not going to help basketball players any! --Alinnisawest(talk) 01:11, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Note that Phelps is only wearing the bottom half of the new suit, he isn't wearing the top part. Corvus cornix_talk 01:23, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Swim training and even swimming technique are changing radically because (as a competitive sport) it is comparatively new. Butterfly isn't even 100 years old. Compare that to running and throwing, which have been around longer than our species. Plasticup ^T/C 01:40, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

In fact, they say that butterfly will someday be faster than freestyle. Sounds crazy, but look at the trends in the world records over time... Plasticup ^T/C 01:42, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Just a nit: you mean it will be faster than crawl (front crawl, Australian crawl, American crawl, whichever you like). Freestyle means that you are free to pick any style, except when it's a leg of an individual medley a medley. --Trovatore (talk) 04:33, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Not really a "nit"--it's a very important and interesting point. Should butterfly become reliably as fast as crawlstroke (by any name), freestyle races might become a sight to see--some athletes relying on one stroke and some on the other. Crawl would remain a staple of the last leg of the medley race, but pure freestyle races might become "free" in a sense that they haven't been in decades. User:Jwrosenzweig as 71.112.40.194 (talk) 06:58, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, this has happened in the past. Because backstroke and front-crawl use different muscles, some distance swimmers liked to alternate between to two stokes so as to rest certain muscle groups within the race. The 1500-freesytle world record was once broken by a man alternating between 100m of front crawl and 100m of backstroke. I haven't see this in modern times, but it is technically possible. Plasticup ^T/C 12:27, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The pool itself is being talked about as a contributing factor, it's depth and tighter climate control. [15] Plus it's indoors which helps. In Athens they were competing in an outdoor pool. RxS (talk) 04:42, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

If the changing design of the pools is contributing measurably to the swimmers' ability to swim faster and faster, how can they meanigfully compare records from today against those of, say, 50 years ago? It seems to me that if today's swimmers had the pools from 50 years ago to swim in, all other factors being equal, they'd be swimming more slowly. Conversely, if the swimmers from 50 years ago had today's pools to swim in, they would have swum faster than they did. Aren't these record comparisons somewhat fundamentally flawed? -- JackofOz (talk) 09:07, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Wanna talk about track shoes? Plasticup ^T/C 12:27, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Wait, Plasticup, they think that the butterfly will be faster than freestyle because of the trends of changes in world records? That seems like a questionable conclusion. The rates of change in newer events will be faster than the rates of change of older events. This can be explained by the fact that the best techniques for old events have been determined and there is very little room for improvement due to physical constraints. This is akin to why it is easier to go from a 7min mile to a 6min mile than from a 5min mile to a 4min mile. There are boundaries on human achievement due to physical constraints. This explanation seems, at least at first glance, to be correct given that our article on the Butterfly stroke states that it is "the newest swimming style swum in competition". (Also) this explanation would also work for why rates of change in women's events are quicker than rates of change in men's events. Even in the West where we pride ourselves on being progressive in respect to women's issues, we've only been accepting of women athletes for the past ~50 years compared to the long history of love for men's competition.

If you want to argue that the butterfly events will have faster times than the freestyle events, then you'll need to appeal to some sort of analysis of the mechanical aspects of the strokes involved and not the rates of change in achievement. A good book which dicusses these sorts of issues is Full House: The Spread of Excellence from Plato to Darwin (US title) by Stephen Jay Gould.--droptone (talk) 12:29, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. Why spoil a perfectly good empirical analysis with all that subjective "analysis of the mechanical aspects"? You are bound to mess it up. Plasticup ^T/C 14:15, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

A quick one - Estonian pronounciation of the female given name, "Katrin"

Ah, I feel kind of foolish but I'm getting conflicting answers on the internet. Kat-rin [16]? Kaht-reen [as in Katrina] [17]? I'm sure both are used, I'm just not sure which one (or another?) is used in Estonia. Thanks! Kinou (talk) 02:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

This question is better suited for the language help desk so I moved it to there.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 20:32, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Olympic baseball pitching: bounce off ground?

In an Olympic baseball game shown today, the Korean pitcher appeared to be bouncing the ball off the ground so that it was rising as it crossed the plate. He was doing all right against the American minor league players who constitute the U.S Olympic baseball team, since Korea won. If this is a useful technique, why is it nerver done in amateur or professional baseball in the U.S.? Because it looks too much like Cricket? Bouncing off the ground is bound to lower the speed of the ball and give the batter far more time to assess the pitch and react. Edison (talk) 02:20, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

For Major League Baseball at least, rule 2.00 states (in part): "If the pitch touches the ground and bounces through the strike zone it is a “ball.” anonymous6494 02:41, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

That explains why they never do it in major league baseball! Another departure of olympic baseball from how it is normally played. Still, it is interesting that it can be so effective a technique to place the ball where the batter does not expect it. Are Korean pitchers skilled at this technique from playing cricket? Seems unlikely. Edison (talk) 04:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

By striking the ground with the ball and imparting spin on the ball the pitcher, like a cricket bowler, is able to vary the angle at which the ball leaves the ground and consequently reduce the amount of time the player has to react to a number of variables, not only sideways movement but vertical angle as well. Richard Avery (talk) 07:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Are we sure that this is actually a rule in Olympic baseball? Rmhermen (talk) 18:52, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm almost positive it isn't. The IBAF rules say that they use the Official Baseball Rules, 2008 edition. I read through the rulebook on the IBAF site and they don't seem to offer any exemptions or alterations to the rules regarding pitching. Unless someone can provide a link to an assertion of this, I'd say--sorry, Edison--that either Edison didn't see what he thought he saw, or that the U.S. players were inexplicably swinging at pitches that had bounced. It is possible, of course, to miss a bounced pitch (which would be a strike) or to hit it to a fielder and be out...in which case the Korean pitcher would seem to be "doing all right". But as the bounced pitch is, by definition of the rules, wild and a ball, why would the batters swing at them unless by mistake? If there's video of the game you saw, Edison, I'd be interested to see it. User:Jwrosenzweig editing as 71.231.197.110 (talk) 19:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The alternative would be that the pitcher was throwing a ball which dropped and then rose, also unlikely. I just know what I saw and marvelled at. Edison (talk) 00:41, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Blood iron test

I gave blood today and first they checked the iron level- they put a drop of a blood in some kind of greenish solution and then watched it for a second before deciding it was fine. What did they put it in and how does it tell them the iron level? 70.162.28.222 (talk) 03:12, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

This is the "CuSO4 Gravimetric Method" (can't find an article on it here). Basically, the blood is dropped into some Copper sulphate and the higher the haemoglobin in the cells, the quicker the blood drop sinks (haemoglobin is heavy). It provides a quick and easy method to detect anaemia, and is accurate enough to screen out those who need to keep all the iron they have!. Fribbler (talk) 13:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Is this possible?

From the Conservapedia Commandments:

Posting of obscenity here is punishable by up to 10 years in jail under 18 USC § 1470. Vandalism is punishable up to 10 years in jail per 18 USC § 1030. Harassment is punishable by 2 years in jail per 47 USC § 223. The IP addresses of vandals will be reported to authorities. That includes your employer and your local prosecutor.

How exactly can you go to jail for posting an "obscenity" on that site? I never knew it was illegal. Same for vandalism: how in the world can someone go to jail for ten years for vandalizing an internet page? Reporting the IP addresses of vandals so they can go to jail seems pointless in the first place, right? They do change all the time. I hope someone can help me with my curiosity :) CL — 08:23, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

You can report the IP with a timestamp to the ISP and they CAN see who's assigned to that IP at that time but wow that would massively violate the freedom of speech. Welcome to the oppressive world Comrade America. --antilived^{T | C | G} 08:29, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

That is what I thought in the first place. How can a conservative site make such claims when it violates what they base their ideals on: the first amendment. Ten years for vandalism, I'd like to see the uproar on that - CL — 08:32, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

You're surprised that conservatives are hypocrites? DuncanHill (talk) 11:28, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The 1st amendment has nothing whatsoever to do with expressing yourself on Conservapedia, or Wikipedia for that matter. Neither of those are the government, and neither has an obligation to provide you with a forum. -- Coneslayer (talk) 13:05, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, Anyone actually checked what 18 USC S 1470 actually says? It wouldn't surprise me if sites were careful. Wikipedia of course doesn't want 'obscenity' other, but tends to have a less legalistic approach to dealing with violaters. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 11:26, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

"Whoever, using the mail or any facility or means of interstate or foreign commerce, knowingly transfers obscene matter to another individual who has not attained the age of 16 years, knowing that such other individual has not attained the age of 16 years, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both." Obscenity doesn't mean swear words, of course, it means this. -- BenRG (talk) 11:41, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

These days, American civil rights fall under the perview of the liberal agenda. I'd have thought that defending a 230 year old document would be considered "conservative", but hey. Plasticup ^T/C 12:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Conservapedia is a bunch of raving maniacs. Why would you worry about their bogus legal notices? They've already had problems with trying to report purported vandals to the FBI, and the FBI told them to go shove it because they were wasting their time. Don't confuse Conservapedia with "conservatives" in general. It's a small, select group of idiots. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 14:03, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed with the above. The 'commandment' is simply incorrect, like so much else on Conservapedia.

Having said that, do you have a link to "They've already had problems with trying to report purported vandals to the FBI"? DJ Clayworth (talk) 21:03, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah [18], most helpful. DJ Clayworth (talk) 21:22, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that diff. What whackjobs. CL — 23:33, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I note that if you rearrange the letters of "Conservapieia," they also spell "Cadavers opine." Edison (talk) 00:38, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, aas providence, aced pervasion, overpaid acnes, paced aversion, avoidance reps, paradise coven , variance dopes, aspic endeavor, parade novices and vane picadores:-)--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 00:52, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly the whole incident appears to have been a huge embarrassment to the Conservapedia whackjobs. If you look at the bottom of the article DJ Clayworth kindly linked to, it gives an extensive list of all the users blocked in order to cover up the fiasco. One user was blocked for “mentioning the FBI.” lol. Wikipedia meets Nineteen Eighty-Four. --S.dedalus (talk) 06:53, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

See obscenity. Obscenity is not considered "speech" under the First Amendment. However, the bar for what constitutes obscenity is quite high. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 11:46, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Disturbance

I am a 20yr old guy studying engineering in a hopeless college in India.I get pretty disturbed when I realise that a girl has had a crush on me.It looks cheap to worry about it,even to me.I get a high whenever a girl calls me handsome.I behave as if I have conquered the whole world.I am a dud in regular academics though I have a scientific bent of mind.I am a loser who has a hopeless future yet I still think I am someone great.I realised lately that I am just a daydreamer who does'nt has a concrete ambition.I think I am suffering from a mental paralysis.I know everything yet still do nothing.Please help me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.235.49.2 (talk) 09:07, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The reference desk is not a place for medical diagnosis -- especially on the miscellaneous page. Since many of the things you describe are related to your own thoughts and feelings, you might consult a mental health professional such as a psychologist or psychiatrist. OtherDave (talk) 10:50, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Railway track geometry

In the field of railway permenant way, are there any standards used in respect of the geometry of track layouts? (I.E is there a fixed set of switch radii)?

Major railroads since the 19th century published standards for turnouts, etc based on rail weight, type of switch etc. There were probably local railroads in bygone days where the geometry was determined by the engineer at the time of the installation. Edison (talk) 00:31, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Theyc ertainly used to have, and I think they'd be silly if they didn't still have - clearance distances between tracks and maximum curvatures seem like very important details to, erm, keep track of. I know I've seen such standardsfor the UK annotated in an old book that my dad owned (it may still be in my back room somewhere among his hundreds of railway books), but I'm afraid I've not found a comprehensive online or readily available source for them. It's likely that different countries would have different regulations, depending on such details as standard carriage size and track gauge - it would be different in Canada to India to the UK.

The most comprehensive document I've found online is an old standard for the UK (a guess that your use of the term "Railway" is that that might be a closer mark than a US document). It's in pdf form, downloadable here. Grutness...wha? 00:35, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Vatican

In the Vatican, the Secret Vatican Archives can only be viewed if one already knows exactly which document you want to see, and can prove that you have the relative qualifications to see it. Further more an index in part or in whole is forbidden, so surely there are documents in there that are important to history and humanity, that no one knows about, nor ever will, and they will never be seen, surely this is wrong? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 12:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

So all documentation that could be potentially import to history/humanity has to be publically accesible? Why? The wrongness (or rightness) of this situation is entirely down to individual perpsective on privacy and issues of public-interest. There isn't a definitive answer. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 12:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The answer to "why" would be so we can learn about history and the world, I should think... but really, I can't tell you definitively if it's "right" or "wrong". No one here can. It's a matter of personal perspective. --Alinnisawest(talk) 13:55, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Knowing that there is some unreachable knowledge stored there adds some well-needed mystery to the world. I think that this is the right thing to do. Plasticup ^T/C 14:12, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Meh, they'll open it all up eventually, and index and archive it all properly. But who knows, most of it could be useless crap! (Well, probably not.) Adam Bishop (talk) 17:08, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

You have to admire the low-key humor of putting your Secret Archives on the internet. Also, the Catholic Church has its own priorities and does things in its own time; they're even planning to put up a statue of Galileo. Digitizing their documents could take a while. The Codex Sinaiticus project, which involved digitizing some 700 pages of a bible dating from the time of Constantine, was projected to cost £680,000 and take four years. -- OtherDave (talk) 21:40, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

business studies

time is said to be the most vital resources in management discuss[eddie] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.219.210.168 (talk) 14:10, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Have you read our articles management and time management? They may be of help to you. DuncanHill (talk) 14:33, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Can Canadian Healthcare be used in the U.S.?

An individual that is a Canadian citizen plans to live with relatives in the U.S. for approximately 6 months. She does not plan to become a U.S. citizen. Would she be able to use her Canadian Healthcare in the U.S.? Would she need to get a "rider” of some type through the Canadian health insurance system that allows her to seek services here in the U.S.? I appreciate any information you can give me. Thank you! Elephantandgiraffe (talk) 14:11, 14 August 2008 (UTC)giraffe

She should contact her provincial health provider (OHIP, whatever); they will be able to tell her. My general understanding is that yes, provincial programs continue to cover residents for 90 days after leaving the province. The next 90 days would be up to her, and (if memory serves) she will have to re-establish residency for 90 days upon return before resumption of benefits. That's pulled out of some very hazy areas of memory, though. She really should contact her provincial health provider. Prince of Canada ^{t | c} 14:18, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

(ec) The rules vary somewhat from province to province in Canada, as health care is a provincial rather than a federal responsibility. In general, however, Canadians travelling abroad will almost certain want to purchase private health insurance, as their provincial health plans will provide very limited out-of-country coverage. For Ontario – Canada's most populous province – their Ministry of Health provides the following advice (their emphasis):

When I travel outside of Canada will OHIP pay the same medical expenses that are covered in Ontario?

No. If you are a resident of Ontario and you are insured under OHIP, you are entitled to very limited funding for a limited range of medical services when you are travelling outside of Canada. For this reason, you are strongly advised to purchase additional health insurance every time you leave Canada. [19]

That link contains a number of other frequently asked questions as well. (For reference, inpatient services are only reimbursed up to $200–$400 per day, far below what you're likely to actually pay at any U.S. hospital.) Similar guidance likely applies to residents of other provinces. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:30, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

What are the rules about returning to Canada to use health care? If you have moved to the States permanently, can you return to Canada and use Canadian healthcare if you get sick? TastyCakes (talk) 14:38, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Again, it varies province by province but there is usally a waiting period - typically ninety days - before you are covered unde the province's health care plan. It is also necessary to establish residence in the province. This even applies for moves within Canada - I am moving to British Columbia from Ontario, and I will not be covered under BC's plan for the first three months. However, I will be covered by OHIP for ninetay days after I leave the province, so I'm OK. - Eron^Talk 14:43, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Wait till she sees how much insurance in the US costs! This is one of the main reasons I am considering a permanent move from the US to Canada. 192.251.134.5 (talk) 18:45, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

It also depends on why she is going to the US (to hang about, to work, to study). In some provinces, students don't lose their health care coverage if they go to school out of province. In any event, though, the amount provincial health care covers can be a minuscule fraction of what an American doctor or hospital will charge. I was shocked to find out that in the US one could be charged up to $500 for a plain physical. Manitoba Health Care reimburses something like $20 per visit, no matter the reason, and only slightly more if the doctor is a specialist. In Alberta ob/gyns and family physicians are paid the grand total of $500 for a low-risk pregnancy. That covers everything from the earliest pregnancy test up to and including delivery and the first post-natal check-up. An American doctor's fee for the same services could be well into five figures. --NellieBly (talk) 07:13, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

The "free" health insurance that most Canadians receive covers only basic healthcare -- no prescriptions, no vision, no dental, no physical therapy, etc. So Canadians, like Americans, usually also get insurance through their workplace to cover things the provincial insurance plan doesn't cover. One of those things is out-of-country emergency healthcare. If you don't have supplementary health insurance that covers that expense, then it's important to buy travel insurance before leaving Canada. Note that sometimes, Canadian provinces send patients to the U.S. for healthcare unavailable in Canada or will agree to cover a procedure in the U.S. if it cannot be done in a reasonable amount of time in Canada.-- Mwalcoff (talk) 11:40, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

History of world records

I am looking for the dates and values of swimming world records over the last 50-60 years. I'm sure there is a database that catalogues every new record, but I can't seem to get my hands on it. Plasticup ^T/C 14:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The official body for granting world records in swimming is FINA. I checked their web site but it has recently been revamped and not all documents have been transferred over yet. So, I can't find historical data on records there, but that doesn't mean they won't be there at some point in the future. - Eron^Talk 14:40, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Category:Swimming records includes a bunch of "World record progression ..." articles, example World record progression 100 metres freestyle which gives several references and links. ---Sluzzelin talk 15:05, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

cracking knuckles

What makes the noise when you crack knuckles? It seems like something that would be quite disturbing if I weren't so used to it. TastyCakes (talk) 14:42, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

See Cracking joints Nanonic (talk) 14:43, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Family Crests & Coats Of Arms

Hi there, can you please tell me why the coat of arms/family crests keep changing depending on what website you go to?....how is anyone surposed to know the correct one? The spellings of the surname were all the same. Your help would be much appreciated, thanks,

Ony —Preceding unsigned comment added by ONY44 (talk • contribs) 17:22, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Coats of arms are not given to families but to individuals. Rmhermen (talk) 18:44, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The books or websites that promise to find "your coat of arms" are just looking for a coat of arms awarded to someone with a similar name to you. Since they aren't really 'your' arms there is no 'correct' one. Feel free to pick whichever you want. DJ Clayworth (talk) 20:56, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

There's a lot of nonsense in the coat-of-arms business, and plenty of people willing to sell you crests, shields, and other heraldic tchotchkes. As Rmhermen points out, in many (most?) European countries, arms were awarded to individuals. In Scotland, for example, the Lord Lyon King of Arms is the ultimate arbiter of who is entitled to "use arms." You might find the "About coats of arms" page of interest, though of course this applies only to arms granted by the Lord Lyon. You can pick whichever you like, if you're so inclined, though in Scotland if the arms have been registered, infringement is a crime and can be prosecuted. — OtherDave (talk) 21:55, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

In England and Wales, likewise, pretending to arms falsely is an offense tried by the Court of Chivalry, which hasn't done much lately but in a ruling fifty years ago found that it does still exist. Many people (having a decent degree is good enough) can buy new arms from the College of Arms. Algebraist 09:23, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Joining an Improv Comedy Group

How does one join such a group? Better yet, where are the closest classes to the Lehigh Valley (Allentown, PA)? I have attempted to do my own research, but I cannot locate any classes near me. Can any one give me some good insight on this? Thanks!

Kate —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.183.190.77 (talk) 18:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Try find some open-mike (microphone) nights and go to them, try finding people who are part of the improv-group and befriend/ask them about joining, put yourself forward to do little 'sets' in the local area and try raise your profile. All these things will help you in your quest. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 08:27, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

As someone who's in a (fairly inactive) improv comedy group, I'd certainly agree with the user above. If you can't find any improv comedy groups around your way, or none which will take you on, consider asking any actors or stand-up comedians you know if they would be interested.

Improv comedy courses aren't very common, in my experience, although some general improv training might be useful. The most important things are to be confident, remember to enjoy yourself and play to the audience. Pursue themes which go down well with the audience, and don't worry if they don't get something or you feel your performance in one round isn't great - provided the audience are laughing heartily by the end, they won't remember any hiccups along the way. The great advantage of working with a sizeable group is that you don't have to have a great idea every round - you can feed off the other performers. Oh, and most important - don't drink alcohol before you go on, or you will probably find your performance far more amusing than the crowd! Warofdreams talk 12:33, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

August 15

Tornado!

Are you guys OK? I saw on the news that a tornado hit near Wikimedia HQ, while watching the Bigfoot matter that is still (News conference tomorrow) in the news. I suspect that Bigfoot is either a primate or that someone got a suit and decided to play in the woods. 65.173.104.93 (talk) 01:17, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Can someone do something about the replica message above? It caused a edit conflict. 65.173.104.93 (talk) 01:18, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

"We guys" come from many different countries. No tornadoes down here lately. Was your comment about Bigfoot part of any question you'd like an answer to? -- JackofOz (talk) 01:20, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and I was concerned about the people at the Wikipedia HQ in Florida who may have got hit by today's tornado. 65.173.104.93 (talk) 01:37, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikimedia moved to San Francisco last year. They don't have to worry about tornadoes anymore, just earthquakes. Paragon¹²³²¹ 01:41, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Good news - You'll be in position regarding Bigfoot and/or a UFO conference that will be going on Friday and over the weekend. Bad news - California gets several minor quakes, and the occasional quake that could cause some damage. Should've moved to Sedona, Arizona, Only thing there is (alleged) aliens and bizarre creatures that may interest Wikipedians. 65.173.104.93 (talk) 02:05, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Nintendo 64 Games

Hi, I recently (on an impulse) bought a Nintendo 64 at a garage sale. It turned out to be a great move! I've been having a lot of fun with it. Unfortunately, I only have two games, Conker's Bad Fur Day, and Super Mario. I want to get Super Smash Bros for it, but I'm also looking for more games that are like Conker's Bad Fur Day (that is M-rated, similar humor, etc.). If anyone has any suggestions for great N64 games, please, suggest! Also, if any games that are similar to Conker's Bad Fur Day come to mind, please let me know what they're called. Thanks for your suggestions! --71.98.28.63 (talk) 02:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Me and my buddy still own this amazing system and I find it to be the best ever. Anyway, you should try finding Star Fox 64, Mario Kart 64, and Banjo Kazooie the original. Banjo Kazooie is an adventure similar to Super Mario in its scale. Mario Kart is a cartoonish racing game, and Star Fox is a shoot em up arcade style from a jet fighter. All very good. Good Luck finding them! The Reader who Writes (talk) 06:10, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I can't beleiver nobody has suggested Goldeneye which might just be the greatest N64 game of them all and also, potentially, the best single-screen multiplayer game in the history of computing citation needed. Anyhoo your best bet to find games will be on things like ebay, garage sales and game-trading shops which often still have older games available. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 07:28, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Goldeneye hasn't really aged as well as Conker's or Super Mario. A major part of what made Goldeneye so special was that it was the first "modern" FPS game that most console gamers had ever played. You can't really re-create that excitement for a modern first-time player. APL (talk) 13:07, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

IGN has a list of the top N64 games. Their list looks pretty good. Here's the 6-10 list (it isn't found on IGN's servers and I had to use Archive.org to find a copy).--droptone (talk) 12:15, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I've got to recommend MarioKart 64. Not the best of the MarioKarts, but they're all pretty fun. (I know you asked for games "like Conker's", but I don't know any. I wish I did.) 13:07, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah. MarioKart 64 is the best N64 game I've played, especially the team battle game.  :-)) Astronaut (talk) 13:39, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Cost of NLP Course

Hi,I am currently looking for a NLP course.I have no idea how much I need to spend,in order to take this course. Can anybody tell me where to get the information of the cost? Or anybody knows the cost? Thanks!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.93.96.226 (talk) 03:31, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia has users in almost every country on Earth. Where do you live, and where are you planning to take the course? Prices will vary wildly not just from country to country but from city to city. --NellieBly (talk) 07:06, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

If I take the course in US or UK,how much will I need to spend?Thanks alot!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.151.198.126 (talk) 07:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

What, in your context, is NLP? -- SGBailey (talk) 11:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Why a different page?

Whenever I type Fungi on wikipedia I see a strange page. Why is it doing that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.13.221.79 (talk) 04:59, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

What do you see? I see the article on Fungus (permalink). — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 05:13, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you are looking for Fungi (music)? Plasticup ^T/C 14:09, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Abu Salama Society was deleted as a non notable company. --Cyrus Andiron 16:24, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Could you tell me what this means.

I am a member of this society and, although it has been low key for the past few months, it has just elected a new board and is currently making plans for future projects and activities.

Emerald88 (talk) 11:16, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Does Wikipedia:Notability help? -- SGBailey (talk) 11:22, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Or WP:ORG in particular. Unfortunately, in WP, a new board and future plans don't make an organisation notable. It has to be covered in independent, secondary reliable sources. Best, Zain Ebrahim (talk) 11:26, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Relay Medals

OK - I know that all the team members in a relay race (swimming etc.)compete as a unit so that if the team wins they each collect a medal (I am thinking here of Michael Phelps in his Gold Medal Relay Race the other day). What I don't understand is how any member who fails to win in his bit of the race, despite his later team-member/s catching up in their section/s, can honourably lay claim to a winner's medal. Seems unfair to me. 92.22.209.236 (talk) 11:35, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean by 'win in his bit of a race'? It's a single race, competed in by a single team. If the team wins, then the team members share the victory. By your reasoning, if a relay team won a race without any of the four runners being the fastest for their stage (which is perfectly possible), then no-one could honourably claim victory. Algebraist 11:42, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

It's a team event, so you win as a team and lose as a team. The difficulty with your idea is that with the exception of the first-leg each of the other swimmers are going to start their leg at different times. Whilst you could look at the speed of their leg in isolation it will only tell half the story. If by the time it comes to your leg you are already 3 body-lengths behind it will alter how you swim, similarly if you are 3 lengths ahead you will swim differently - or if you are close then you will be pushed harder by the feeling of other swimmers being near. In short the leg-time in isolation isn't really evidence of whether a person is able to 'honourably' lay claim to a winner's medal. There is no I in team - people who seek to place the victory on one individual unfairly discount the importance of the other team-member's performance (even if it is less than the 'star player') 194.221.133.226 (talk) 12:33, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Does the argument hold for football ? Anyone not directly scoring a goal or touchdown be not entitled to a medal ?86.211.108.189 (talk) 13:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)DT

Scuse my ignorance Algebraist - but if NONE of the relay team wins in their section of the race - how can it be possible for the team to win the race? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.22.209.236 (talk) 13:53, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

To win, the sum of the times of each of the team members needs to be lower than the sums for the other teams. So it is possible to win none of the segments but still win overall if there are more than two teams. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 14:03, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Think of it like this: Lane 1 does 4 x legs averaging 30 seconds (120 seconds). Lane 2 does 1 leg at 25 seconds and the rest at 35 (35x3 + 25 = 130 seconds). Lane 3, 4 and 5 do the same as Lane 2 - between them they each win a leg of the race but overall they are slower than lane 1. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 14:07, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

So - is that the way it worked when Michael Phelps and his team-mates won their Gold Medal for their relay event? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.22.209.236 (talk) 15:13, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

In the case of the US team's relay, they fell behind, meaning that the first 3 Frenchmen swam combined faster than the first three Americans. But the fourth American swam fast enough to not only be faster than the fourth Frenchman, but fast enough to make the four total American times faster than the four Frenchmen's combined times. Useight (talk) 15:23, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Source for Quote: "Your Lack of Planning..."

Who is the source for the quote: "Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."?

Thank you for any help,

--Grey1618 (talk) 13:31, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Google "Lack of planning on your part" and you will be offered a page of references. Why not do this before asking here?86.211.108.189 (talk) 13:48, 15 August 2008 (UTC)DT

to the OQ from the ref desk, lack of searching on your part does not require a response on ours. LOL!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 15:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I see nothing resembling an answer to the question in the first two pages of Google results. -- BenRG (talk) 15:57, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I did perform a google search and, as the above commenter noted, found nothing useful in the first several pages. Mostly companies selling mugs with that quote, unattributed, painted on. --Grey1618 (talk) 16:03, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Good paper sorting method?

Okay, kind of a boring question, but hopefully someone out there will have some insight ...

I'm a co-librarian of a choir. After each performance, the choir members (the co-librarian and me included among them, since we also sing) turn in their sheet music, which is numbered (1 through 50, for example), and the other librarian and I sort it into numerical order and return it to our music library. The choir members turn in the music so that each song is in its own pile, but, of course, each pile is not in numerical order to start with.

So here's my question: what's the fastest way to sort 50 pieces of paper into numerical order? We usually have something like 12-15 separate "sets" (i.e., piles) of music to sort. In the past, we've recruited friends and family members, but it still ends up taking a fairly long time, about a half hour or more depending on how much help we get. We've also tried doing this thing where one of us would sort numbers 1-25 of each pile and set aside numbers 26-50 to be sorted by the other. That worked a little better, but I'm hoping there's some super-fast method I haven't thought of.

Thanks in advance! Dgcopter (talk) 15:35, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Get the quiristers to line up in order of the numbers on their sheet music, and to place their copy face down on top of the previously placed piece. DuncanHill (talk) 15:39, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm tempted to suggest some sort of Sorting algorithm like Quicksort, but I don't think that would actually help for humans sorting physical pieces of paper. Probably DuncanHill's solution is better, if that's not feasable, then perhaps some sort of compromise. Set up a bunch of piles for "Pages 1-5","Pages 6-10". It seems like that would speed things up considerably. APL (talk) 15:44, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Whistle while you work Plasticup ^T/C 15:49, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Heh, it's funny, but I had thought about using something like a bubble sort, but yeah, like you say, humans sorting physical things don't work as well as computers sorting data. Regarding DuncanHill's suggestion: the problem is that the choristers ... well ... aren't very helpful. Notice I say we recruited family and friends? That's because nobody else sticks around. And we were thinking about doing separate piles for different ranges, like APL suggests, but sometimes we don't have the space, especially when there are 15 separate sets of sheet music to be turned in. Dgcopter (talk) 16:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)