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Volunteer Marek

CFredkin (talk · contribs) is banned from the topic of post-1932 politics of the United States, and closely related people, broadly construed, for three months. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 21:00, 24 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Volunteer Marek

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: CFredkin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 00:06, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Discretionary Sanctions (Consensus required: All editors must obtain firm consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion). If in doubt, don't make the edit.) at Donald Trump

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1:37, 14 September 2016 Content recently added by 3P
13:53, 14 September 2016 Content recently added by 3P
16:33, 14 September 2016 Content reverted
16:49, 14 September 2016 Content restored in violation of Discretionary Sanctions

Snapshot of article Talk page at time of restoration indicating lack of consensus regarding content (bottom 2 sections)

Nofication of OP of violation by uninvolved editors and OP's response.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Prior notification of OP of DS at article

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

VM has clearly violated discretionary sanctions in this case. Multiple editors have noted this. The implication of his behavior is that he thinks discretionary sanctions don't apply to him.

Please note: Despite SomedifferentStuff's claim below, this request does NOT involve a 1RR violation. Please see "Sanction or remedy to be enforced" above.CFredkin (talk) 22:30, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User: Laser brain: If my behavior is going to be examined as part of this request, then I'd like to respond to the allegation that I've gamed the DS process somehow. (That seems to be the most common allegation.) I'd encourage the OP's to provide actual evidence to support the allegation. Presumably it means that I've been using DS to block content from being added to Trump's bio which is not actually questionable. If that's the case, there should be multiple examples of me reverting content (and declaring DS) and then my objection ultimately being decisively over-ruled in the Talk discussion.CFredkin (talk) 17:53, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User: Laser brain: Also, please review the discussion in this section of the Talk for Donald Trump, titled "Depth of coverage on Trump Foundation and current NY inquiry". I pointed out that an entire paragraph of the disputed content is not supported by the source provided. Somedifferentstuff and VM both responded to my post. Net result: as of this post, the unsourced content remains in Trump's bio. Please tell me who's operating in the best interest of the project.CFredkin (talk) 18:43, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a list of archived AE activity regarding VM. (I'm not even sure if it's complete as I stopped looking after a while.) Seeing this list, I guess it's not surprising that a straightforward complaint of DS violation against VM would result in my being banned.

1 No action taken. 19:07, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

2 No action taken, see admin discussion below. 01:09, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

3 Case was without merit and filing party blocked for sock puppetry. 22:15, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

4 No action taken 19:14, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

5 Not closely related to the Eastern Europe discretionary sanctions so outside the jurisdiction of AE. 07:43, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

6 Volunteer Marek and Russavia are banned from interacting with each other. Russavia is blocked for two weeks for violating his Eastern Europe topic ban. 07:05, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

7 This complaint is archived in the expectation it can be reopened when User:Volunteer Marek returns to Wikipedia editing. 21:27, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

8 Submitter blocked indefinitely. 08:46, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

9 Volunteer Marek warned for incivility. No other action. 17:30, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

10 Jacurek, Volunteer Marek, Dr. Dan and Lokyz are sanctioned as described in this thread; M.K is warned. 06:47, 17 March 2011 (UTC)CFredkin (talk) 20:05, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'll also note that the only actual evidence I've seen of alleged recent wrongdoing on my part is a post by Bishonen on my Talk page alleging that I gamed DS by reverting after 26 hours. Everything else has been generalized accusations.

It's interesting that the only editors who posted here as 3P's who have not edited Trump-related articles (as far as I can tell) were Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi and Vanamonde93. However, I believe Vanamonde93's post here was retribution for my opposition to his recent admin candidacy.

Leading the charge (although late to post here) to get me banned is MastCell, the admin who does no administrative work. As far as I can tell, all the edits he makes don't actually require administrative authority. So why does he have it? Because it's great for intimidating other editors and it allows him to get away with being generally nasty toward those he disagrees with (e.g. [1], [2], and [3]. He can't engage with me administratively, because he's been pushing his own agenda on Trump articles, so instead he gives this dog whistle to his buddies.

That was the signal for Bishonen (who had previously, and not long ago, declared that she was not going to get involved with DS enforcement) to head to my Talk page and threaten me with a ban for reverting after 26 hours on a page with DS. That's right, VM can get away with being the recipient of an amazing number of AE enforcements without so much as a slap on the wrist. But heaven forbid I revert after 26 hours on a DS page, and I'm threatened with a topic ban.

Then there's Drmies, who brackets her appeal here for boomerang sanctions against me with posts([4], [5]) advocating deletion of an article I created.CFredkin (talk) 22:54, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:NeilN: I don't understand this post below. How is removing "firm" from the DS being discussed here going to change behavior? Multiple editors here have pointed out that when VM restored the reference to the Generals and Trump University, he lacked firm consensus, consensus, and in fact any support at all for doing so in Talk. And he later only removed the reference to the Generals, not Trump University.

I would say other editors will look at VM's blatant violation of DS and the proceedings here and conclude that what counts most on the project is having a group of like-minded admins who've got your back. In fact, I've had more than one editor email me to say that given the intellectual dishonesty of the liberal editors on political articles, they're not planning to engage in the project moving forward. I'm sure nothing would make you guys happier, but the inevitable consequence of that dynamic is that WP's articles will become increasingly biased over time. As that happens, readers will conclude that WP is not a reliable source for information.

In fact, that bias is already happening. Look at Clinton's campaign article.... liberal editors have blocked any mention of her "deplorable" comment and any mention of the Clinton Foundation-State Department controversy that's been a huge issue for her campaign. And then look at Trump's campaign article.... anything negative said by or about him has been added there, including an unfounded attack by Hillary regarding the "alt-right" movement. What's the chance that any attack by Trump against Clinton would end up in her article? That's easy... no chance.CFredkin (talk) 00:39, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[6]

Discussion concerning Volunteer Marek

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Volunteer Marek

Here we go again. Please see the, what? last three? reports against me this month - all closed with no action - for why this is bullshit. This is a blatant attempt to abuse discretionary sanctions bordering on harassment.

Here is the relevant discussion at User:NeilN's talk page.

Here is User:MastCell's comment there: [7]. The edit summary is on gaming discretionary sanctions and it refers to CFredkin's behavior (just like he's doing here). MastCell's comments are so on point that they deserve being quoted in full:

" it's pretty obvious what CFredkin is doing. He reflexively reverts any material that might reflect negatively on Donald Trump, typically with a vague or non-existent rationale, and then demands "firm consensus" before the material can be re-inserted. Any attempt to achieve consensus is then filibustered with further vague objections, most commonly some variation of "WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS-in-Hillary-Clinton's-article".

The discretionary sanctions are intended to promote caution in inserting potentially contentious material, but he's realized that he can render any material "contentious" simply by reverting it. It's a pattern which, combined with his editing history, makes it clear what he's up to. He's gaming the discretionary sanctions, and I see other editors, including Marek, getting frustrated with it. More to the point, if the discretionary sanctions are giving editors like CFredkin or Anythingyouwant de facto veto power over content, then they're not being enforced in a productive way."

because that's EXACTLY what CFredkin does. He blanket reverts any editor who's not one of his allies, claims that discretionary sanctions protect his edit warring and then filibusters any discussion to make sure that he can always claim that no "firm" consensus has been achieved. This is also the case the particular case of this request. Here's the talk page discussion [8]. There's five different editors who disagree with CFredkin. But hey, CFredkin objects, so "no firm consensus" so "I get to do whaa I want!!!".

Here's User:Somedifferentstuff's relevant comment [9]: "If Volunteer Marek deserves sanctioning then so do half the editors at Donald Trump, in particular CFredkin for consistently gaming the system in regards to discretionary sanctions with his drive-by deletions. I know this is silly season but enough already. I won't even get started on Anythingyouwant as I was in awe of the description here --- and low and behold, he strikes again".

For the record, I don't know Somedifferentstuff from a hamster and though I've obviously seen MastCell around (since he's a super-veteran editor) I don't recall interacting with them in any substantial manner. So it's not just me that has noticed and is getting totally fed up with CFredkin's behavior (Anythingyouwant does sort of the same thing, but he's not so obnoxious and transparent about it) and thinks it's long over due for a topic ban. CFredkin should've been topic banned when they first made an appearance making BLP vio edits. But hey, assume good faith, let it slide, and here we are now, four months of irritation too late.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:39, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:39, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And to be explicit, there were four editors on the talk page plus myself who agreed with retaining the text. Ok, Anythingyouwant appears to have changed his mind later but at the time of my edit under discussion, their comments on talk indicated support for keeping the material. That's five editors who want to keep the text. And one editor - CFredkin - who wanted it removed. And he removed it. Against consensus. And then tried to invoke discretionary sanctions and filed this report as some kind of abracadabra magic spell that gives him immunity from being reverted.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:26, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Zaostao, please don't accuse me of lying. Especially when it's your fault you have problems with reading comprehension. My statement clearly refers to the issue of including text about the Trump Foundation - you know, that's why I quote editors' statements about it and link to the section about it. What you are pointing out is that there was no consensus for something else - mentioning the New Jersey Generals in the lede. And I agree with that, which is why I self reverted that portion of my edit [10].

Again, in regard to the pertinent issue - whether to include material on the Trump Foundation - there was indeed five editors, and strong consensus for inclusion when CFredkin tried to remove it and when I restored. So stop throwing unsupported accusations around and strike your comment. (Also, why are you showing up to every article I edit?) Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:50, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Zaostao, first please don't alter your comments after someone replied to them, as you did here, since that makes it look like I'm replying to something other than what you actually said. Second, there was indeed no consensus for including the NJ Generals and I did a partial revert. Now Trump University, the discussion was more mixed, and I was considering self-reverting that as well but you beat me to it [11]. If you really want to know here is the timeline:

I undid CFredkin's revert at 16:47 [12]
I went to real life work. Anythingyouwant complained on my talk page that instead of immediately responding to CFredkin's admin-shopping at NeilN's talk page [13] I "waited six hours". Gimme a fucking break. If I have to go to work, I'm gonna go to work, not check Wikipedia every ten minutes to see if someone somewhere said something bad about me. Tough noogies guys, get over it.
I got done with work and noticed that CFredkin was trying to stir up controversy and haranguing admins and running around crying "discretionary sanctions" as he usually does when consensus is against him. I didn't have much time to look at the whole thing, but I did a quick partial self revert at 21:59 [14] to show good faith. I then drove home
I had dinner.
I quickly checked Wikipedia and quickly responded to the attacks on me at NeilN's page.
I hang out with my family and watched a cartoon with my kid.
I checked Wikipedia again at about 00:00 Sept 15, had some time to actually pay attention to what all this was about and made some more edits.

But now it seems that I was STUPID to actually partially revert myself at 21:59 (Sept 14) since now you're trying to use that against me to argue that "I was aware" of ... something or other. I'll keep that in mind and try to be less accommodating in the future, since apparently making a show of good faith just gets twisted against you.

Look, it's freakin' ridiculous of you to demand that I respond immediately on Wikipedia to every little storm that someone concocts in some tea cup. I responded to the concerns on the same day, when I had time to actually sit down with Wikipedia. And your insistence on bringing this up just evidences how bad-faithed your editing is (and you still haven't explained why you're stalking my edits).Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:19, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And btw, I'm gonna go to work again now. So whatever crazy shit you guys come up with in the mean time, don't expect an immediate response. Probably shouldn't state this, since now there'll be a flurry of attacks (get him while he's busy!!!) Have fun with yourself.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:22, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You already brought up this MVBW business and tried to make something of it in like fifty million previous AE reports against me and in all of them nothing happened, because there was nothing to it. Just drop it. Your WP:BATTLEGROUND is showing.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:20, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I mean, seriously, is there some external forum or website or something where you guys collect and share these diffs, because you and a few others keep posting the same set and it ~~almost~~ looks like a cut-n'-paste.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:22, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Re Anythingyouwant - Anythingyouwant says " VM made six edits spanning 21:59 to 22:46 including this refusal to revert Trump U from the lead". This is blatantly dishonest. Oh screw it, let's call it what it is - it's Anythingyouwant lying his ass off. I made a partial self-revert. This partial self-revert did not include reverting a part which ATW apparently wanted me to revert as well. And now he shows up here and pretends that my good faithed partial-self revert was a "refusal". Do you see me refusing anything in that edit? No? That's because I'm not. But yeah, I'll keep in mind that trying to compromise with some people only makes them use that against you for the future. This is classic WP:BATTLEGROUND tactic where every action by an editor one disagrees with is made to look bad and nefarious even when it's actually doing what you want.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:25, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And like I already replied to Zaostao - this boils down to the fact that I didn't fully revert within six hours after CFredkin went crying to an administrator. Like I already said, I was at work and wasn't even aware he had done this. I briefly noticed it six hours later but as I was busy with other stuff I made only a couple quick edits, including self-reverting myself in part. But that's not enough for the battleground warriors. They expect and demand that when they complain about something, the editor being attacks comes running to fulfill their wishes immediately and without delay. I want this and I want it now! Ok... how old are you? Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:29, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And oh yeah, did I mention that majority of the edit had "firm" consensus on the talk page when I undid CFredkin's revert? Cuz it did. This is just CFredkin yelling "discretionary sanctions! discretionary sanctions!" as an edit warring and POV pushing tactic.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:31, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, ATW, it was a lie. I didn't "refuse" to do anything which is what you are claiming. I made a partial self-revert rather than full revert. And no, I didn't break DS since the edit restored material which had support on talk page for the most part. If you had been nicer about it, and didn't try to make this into a battleground and had just waited a bit longer (like I said, at work) we could've worked it out amicably. But this isn't really about the edit in question, is it? It's about trying to hang a sanction on someone who gets in the way of pushing your POV. Because whether "Trump University" is mentioned (literally, as briefly as possible) or not, and whether I self-revert after six hours, or ten hours, doesn't matter all that much. But it provides you with this bullshit excuse to agitate here on WP:AE.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:43, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Dervorguilla - yes, and I self reverted that part about the Generals as soon as I noticed. Frankly, it was such a minor part of the dispute, and of the text, that it didn't immediately pop on my radar. But when it did, I undid my edit. What's the problem? Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:34, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by My very best wishes

I think the POV-pushing by CFredkin is immediately obvious from many his comments. Consider this for example. He tells: If we are going to say Trump is "racist" in the lede at Donald Trump presidential campaign, 2016, then it seems completely fair to include this reference here. Both comments are equally well sourced and character-based.

Everything is wrong here:

The lede at the Donald Trump presidential campaign in fact does not tell that he is a "racist"
He makes assumption that if something bad was said about one presidential candidate, than something bad should also be said about another presidential candidate, just to "get even"
CFredkin is obviously against saying about Trump that he is a "racist". OK. But he votes "Yes" so say an equally bad thing (according to his own comment) about another candidate.

My very best wishes (talk) 02:13, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Word "firm" was removed, but I do not think it changes anything in this AE discussion. My very best wishes (talk) 13:28, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

The restriction tells: All editors must obtain firm consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion). I guess it comes from Template:2016 US Election AE. Was it actually authorized by Arbcom for all pages related to US elections 2016? Based on comments below [15], I can see that no, it was not specifically authorized by Arbcom, and it was poorly worded.

I think this restriction should not be used as something prone to WP:gaming. For example, anyone can remove anything he does not like (no matter how well this is sourced and relevant) and claim: "hey, that was challenged by reversion, where is your consensus to include?". And this is actually happening, like here (see also edit summary). Moreover, making a restriction "to enforce BRD" is a questionable idea because WP:BRD is an essay, not a policy. My very best wishes (talk) 16:57, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi

Volunteer Marek: 27 edits since December 2015;
CFredkin: 222 edits since March this year.

_Muffled ^Pocketed 08:18, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Zaostao

Volunteer Marek states "And to be explicit, there were four editors on the talk page plus myself who agreed with retaining the text. Ok, Anythingyouwant appears to have changed his mind later but at the time of my edit under discussion, their comments on talk indicated support for keeping the material."

Volunteer Marek restored the contested material at 16:47, 14 September 2016 (UTC) and the talk page discussing this issue at the time showed no support for the inclusion. Anythingyouwant disagreed with the inclusion citing WP:MOSBIO, Buster7 said "OK. Maybe no mention in the lead but the Generals could be mentioned somewhere in the article," and Muboshgu said "Generals definitely not important enough for the lead. Trump U probably not."

So Volunteer Marek's claim that "there were four editors on the talk page plus myself who agreed with retaining the text" is simply a lie, he had not discussed restoring the material, and there were only three editors on the talk page, none of whom supported the inclusion. Zaostao (talk) 13:36, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There was no support for the inclusion of Trump University in the lede either, but you left it in when you were self-reverting. You also did not discuss any of this on the talk page, in fact, the talk page when you made your partial self-revert was exactly the same as it was when you made your original restoration of the contested material. The excuse being that "but I meant to restore this contested material (Trump Foundation), not this other contested material (New Jersey Generals & Trump University) that I re-added as collateral" is not valid, and you showed awareness that you made the restoration of the New Jersey Generals and Trump University material along with the Trump Foundation material when you made the partial self-revert that left the unsupported Trump University material in the first paragraph of the lede.

You restored contested material without discussion and against the consensus on the talk page at the time of restoration. Zaostao (talk) 14:19, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate you giving me the time line of your day Marek, but if your time is limited, may I suggest that you spend that time working and with your family instead of restoring contested material without discussion? It would be beneficial to all parties.

Addition: Marek states that "Now Trump University, the discussion was more mixed, and I was considering self-reverting that as well but you beat me to it."

1) He admits here that he was aware that he also restored the contested Trump University material along with the Trump Foundation material, and also was aware of the discussion that he did not partake in (how else would he know the discussion was "more mixed" or not), but chose to leave the contested Trump U material in when he made the partial reversion that removed the New Jersey Generals material.

2) This seems inconsistent as after I removed the contested Trump University material, Marek then made his first contribution to the talk page (his first in 12 days actually: 3rd September to 15th September despite having restored the contested material on 14th September) stating that he thought Trump University was important enough to be in the lede. He also later said that "Of course Trump U is notable. Why in the world would it not be?" in response to CFredkin stating "Neither seems notable enough to warrant mention in the lede," so I have to seriously question whether Marek was actually considering removing the Trump University line himself or if that statement was a lie—although it doesn't really matter either way as he still restored contested material without any discussion on the talk page and when the talk page was actually in consensus against the restoration. Zaostao (talk) 20:34, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Also, Marek complains about my presence here, but does not complain about My very best wishes' presence despite the fact that they showed up before me? As D.Creish has shown below, I think if there's anyone who is "stalking your edits", it is MVBW. Zaostao (talk) 18:23, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"one can at least hope that discretionary sanctions should be interpreted in a way that removes obvious single-purpose tendentious agenda accounts like CFredkin, rather than rewarding them while punishing the people who have to deal with them." –MastCell

Is this speaking as if the account being reported in this filing isn't (at least recently) a single-purpose tendentious agenda account? Do the same 3,000 edit test for VM, how many are not partisan edits to politics related articles? Zaostao (talk) 23:19, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement By D.Creish

You're correct, it's not relevant. --Laser brain (talk) 16:52, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I don't know whether this is relevant here but I'm concerned about possible WP:TAGTEAM-ing by Marek and My very best wishes in political articles.

In Debbie Wasserman Schultz Marek makes two reverts which remove the same block of content:

When Marek's second revert is reverted, MVBW (having never edited the article before) makes another two reverts removing the same block of content Marek had removed:

In Hillary Rodham cattle futures controversy (under 1RR) Marek removes a significant amount of content, is reverted, then reverts:

18:16, 14 September 2016

and again MVBW (having never edited this relatively obscure article) reverts to remove the same content:

00:20, 15 September 2016

One could chalk it up to shared interests but MVBW's edit summaries and (occasional) talk page comments don't reflect an understanding of the text he's restoring or removing.

For example, in his first revert above he refers to Wasserman-Schultz denying Sanders access to the DNC's computerized voter database as a "petty detail", when the incident was covered in every major RS, and the cited source was a NY Times article focusing exclusively on the incident.

In his 3rd revert his edit summary is: rv per BLP. The arguments on article talk page look convincing, but account(s) look suspicious. Something published by newspapers is not research. Except none of the editors whose content he reverted had posted on the talk page... and while one account looks suspicious the other two look normal. His reference to "research" is a bad paraphrase of Marek's talk page comment where he objects to including a USA Today "study."

The only part of MVBW's summary that seems reasonable is "rv per BLP." His reversion also restores a broken link corrected in a separate edit, suggesting he didn't examine the content or edit-history before restoring and simply deferred to Marek's version.

A more thorough search showed the pattern repeating:

MVBW only edit to Polandball is to revert an editor who reverted Marek
One of his (only 3) edits to Humanitarian situation during the war in Donbass continues a revert war started by Marek
Each of his 4 edits to Clinton Foundation (1, 2, 3, 4) restores or removes content Marek had earlier attempted to restore or remove - the 3rd, a direct reversion of Marek's reversion
His only edit to Viktor Yanukovych is to revert an editor who had just reverted Marek
3 of his 5 edits to Anna Politkovskaya perpetuate a revert war to assist Marek: 1, 2, 3
6 of his 10 edits to Ghouta chemical attack (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) restore or remove content Marek had recently restored or reverted
His only edit to Clinton Foundation–State Department controversy reverts the removal of material Marek had recently added - again note the generic edit summaries: "I do not think there is agreement on this"
His only edit to Luhansk People's Republic reverts the preceding reversion of Marek's edit
His only edit to Ukraine reverts the preceding reversion of Marek's edit
His only edit to The Holocaust in Poland reverts the preceding reversion of Marek's edit
His only edit to Zaporizhian Sich (besides a page move) reverts an earlier reversion of Marek's edit
His only edit to Foundations of Geopolitics reverts the preceding reversion of Marek's edit

If I continued searching I'd expect to find more. Effectively they appear to operate as one account with extra revert and consensus privileges. D.Creish (talk) 17:19, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Reply

@Volunteer Marek: I mentioned your and MVBW's involvement at AE only once previously. I don't think "tried to make something of it in like fifty million previous AE reports" is a remotely fair or honest representation. Please retract it along with the personal attack that follows. D.Creish (talk) 22:06, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Somedifferentstuff

First, the initial filing of this complaint is malformed. It list 4 diffs, 3 of which do not involve Volunteer Marek (you need at least 2 diffs to demonstrate a violation of discretionary santions - i.e. 1RR). Second, the above section by D.Creish appears to be some type of "guilt by association" attack. It is largely focused on another editor called My very best wishes, who appears to be following him around. In other words, it is not his responsibility to monitor the actions of a fellow editor, much less be ascribed sanctions for their behavior. Lastly, whoever takes on this case needs to look at the discussion that took place here. Cheers. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 22:11, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SPECIFICO

It's clear from this thread that CFredkin is abusing AE to pursue a political agenda against Volunteer Marek because Marek is upholding WP policy in the face of Fredkin's POV and Battlegound editing. CFredkin should be TBANned from American Politics per ARBAP2. SPECIFICO talk 13:38, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It should also be clear to the Admins who are declining to enforce ARBAP2 that their inaction is enabling various anti-Clinton POV editors to run out the clock, gaming the system long enough for their stuff to stay on WP and Google search results through the election. There really isn't time for Admins to ruminate, warn, study and relitigate all this misbehavior. All of this nonsense e.g. using WP to post anti-Clinton conspiracy theories as if they were fact, will be removed on the normal WP cycle -- about 12-18 months -- but the POV warriors know that, and so did Arbcom when it authorized Admins to act with appropriate timely sanctions to put a stop to this behavior. SPECIFICO talk 19:02, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Dervorguilla: appears to be stating that a punitive remedy should be levied against Volunteer Marek. But on WP, remedies are applied for prevention, not to shame and blame. Furthermore, Dervorguilla, you fail to consider the context of battleground and POV behavior by other editors. SPECIFICO talk 17:21, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Anythingyouwant

The edits in question by VM were twofold: partly to the opening paragraph of the lead, and partly to a section about the Trump Foundation. This AE complaint is reasonable as to both, and reasonable as to either one separately, regardless of the outcome. For brevity's sake, I'll confine the rest of my comment here to the first edit by VM (i.e. his edits to the opening paragraph). At 14 September at 13:53, the following sentence was added to the opening paragraph of the lead: "He is the founder of Trump University and the New Jersey Generals football team." This sentence was removed at 16:33 on 14 September. Then Volunteer Marek edited this BLP by restoring that sentence at 16:47 on 14 September. At that point (16:47) there was already a talk page discussion with no consensus for including this material (three editors had commented and none of them supported reinclusion of the disputed sentence). Volunteer Marek had previously been informed about discretionary sanctions at this BLP.[16] VM's edit summary said: "restore well sourced material removed with misleading edit summaries".[17] But there had been nothing misleading about the edit summary VM criticized (please compare VM's blank edit summary for a non-minor edit at 16:49); even if VM had been correct that someone else's edit summary had been misleading, that wouldn't give VM power to revert new and contested material back into the opening paragraph without consensus, contrary to discretionary sanctions. Shortly after his edit to the opening paragraph at 16:47, a complaint was filed at 17:12 over at the user talk of an uninvolved admin, who requested at 17:52 that VM answer the complaint.[18] VM made six edits spanning 21:59 to 22:46 including this refusal to revert Trump U from the lead. Finally, another editor removed Trump U from the opening paragraph at 23:37. So, VM had plenty of time and opportunity to comply with the discretionary sanctions, and chose not to.Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:50, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Just to be clear, this refusal to revert Trump U from the lead paragraph did revert some other stuff, but still it was a refusal to revert Trump U, exactly as I said above (without "lying my ass off"). I don't think VM ought to be praised for violating discretionary sanctions less than he tried to do initially.Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:34, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Believe me, VM, I'd have much preferred if you hadn't screwed around with the lead paragraph of this very high profile BLP, because then I wouldn't feel obliged to stick my neck out like this at AE. Cheers.Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:48, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Lord Roem, you refer to "VM's self-revert", but if you click on it you'll see that it was only a partial self-revert, and VM himself described it as such in his edit summary. The material that was not reverted had no consensus at the article talk page, including insertion of "Trump University" into the opening paragraph. It's nice and all that VM reverted himself a little bit, and I will certainly keep that tactic in mind next time I want to get away with controversial insertions.Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:06, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

MastCell has now pinged me twice, so I will now respond. I have already denied that any misrepresentation was made by me in the incident five years ago to which MastCell refers. I do not want to comment any further here in this proceeding, unless or until anyone suggests sanctioning me, at which point I would like to see specific diffs and allegations to which I can respond. Preferably, we won't get to that point, but please let me know if and when we do. For now, I deny MastCell's accusation that I have recently lied about anything at the Donald Trump talk page. MastCell omits to mention that an uninvolved admin has already absolved me of that bogus charge (User:NeilN wrote "Different editors place different emphasis on different parts of guidelines. Doing so is not deliberate misrepresentation"). MastCell also omits to mention the explanation I gave him at the time, and omits that other experienced editors shared opinions similar to mine. Again, if I am being considered now for sanctions, please let me know why so that I can respond appropriately. Thanks.Anythingyouwant (talk) 07:00, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Belated statement by Dervorguilla

"I disagree with ... putting ... in the first paragraph ... 'He is the founder of ... Generals football team', per WP:MOSBIO," says Anythingyouwant. "OK. Maybe no mention in the lead," says Buster7. "Generals definitely not important enough for the lead," says Muboshgu. Looks to me like a reasonably well-founded consensus against reinstating, not for reinstating. Yet Volunteer Marek, an experienced editor, goes ahead and openly reinstates. He appears to have been openly taking a needless risk. I think he and other interested editors (including this editor) deserve to learn what the consequences are -- both for a risk-taking editor and for an editor who correctly calls him out. --Dervorguilla (talk) 09:17, 17 September 2016 (UTC) Dervorguilla (talk) 09:17, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[Rewritten after helpful comment]: "I disagree with ... putting ... in the first paragraph ... 'He is the founder of ... Generals football team', per WP:MOSBIO," says Anythingyouwant. "OK. Maybe no mention in the lead," says Buster7. "Generals definitely not important enough for the lead," says Muboshgu. Looks like a well-founded consensus against reinstating. Yet Volunteer Marek -- an experienced editor -- goes ahead and openly reinstates. He appears to be taking a needless risk. He gets properly called out. I think he and other interested editors deserve to learn what the consequences are -- both for the risk-taking editor and for the editor properly calling him out. --Dervorguilla (talk) 09:23, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MelanieN

I think this diff (a comment by Bishonen at CFredkin's talk page) might be helpful in evaluating this situation. (Note: I am WP:INVOLVED in several of these articles, so anything I say here is as an editor, not an administrator.) --MelanieN (talk) 04:26, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Also relevant: this comment by MastCell at NeilN's talk page. --MelanieN (talk) 08:06, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Recent activity: On September 19 VM and CFredkin got into a small edit war at Political positions of Donald Trump, in which they both did things that would have been sanctionable under Discretionary Sanctions. However, that article has not been identified as being under DS so the edits were allowable. I would like to suggest that somebody place a DS warning on that page, and possibly other Trump related articles, because this is by no means the first time that this kind of edit warring has happened there - by people who are clearly very well aware of what they can get away with in the absence of DS. --MelanieN (talk) 16:23, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Just another straw in the wind: In a discussion at CFredkin's talk page, User talk:CFredkin#Gaming 1RR in American politics, he claimed that VM violates AE sanctions but gets away with it because "the same admin intervenes on your behalf at AE each time to give you a pass." When challenged to say who he was talking about, he backed down and struck the allegation. This seems to be to fall somewhere in between bluster and tendentiousness. Not to mention his unsupported claims that the admin community is "biased" and is "selectively enforcing policies". There is definitely a battlefield mentality here. --MelanieN (talk) 22:38, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Vanamonde93

I have interacted substantially with both Marek and CFredkin, so I am commenting here as an editor only. Marek's behavior was sub-par, and in my view he should certainly have been more circumspect about the revert: but he has self-reverted, which does not seem to leave too much to be sanctioned. I want to echo MelanieN's comment, and add that CFredkin's track record in this area is poor. I, too, have found that his modus operandi, more often than not, is to remove any material of Trump (or other mainstream republican candidate) and then demand consensus for its inclusion, or else insist that it is undue weight. He also tends to dance very close to the edge on many of the restrictions in place on US politics pages, whether they be 3RR, 1RR, or requiring consensus for contentious material. I can post diffs if necessary, but this is easily verified by looking at the number of warnings on his talk page, or the reports here. Moreover, a point he makes frequently is that Hilary Clinton and Donald Trump (for example) should be treated symmetrically, because that is his interpretation of NPOV: which of course is incorrect. NPOV means giving due weight to all significant points of view in reliable sources; and reliable sources treat the two candidates differently. Vanamonde (talk) 13:19, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MastCell

I agree with the consensus below that this request is meritless, but I'd like to expand on my comments here, on stonewalling, filibustering, and abuse of the discretionary sanctions by CFredkin, the filer of this complaint. CFredkin is a prolific single-purpose agenda account, whose only apparent interest in Wikipedia is in its potential as a platform for right-wing talking points. Here's an exercise: go back in CFredkin's contribution history and look for edits that don't directly involve partisan US politics. And if you find any, let me know—I went back about 3,000 edits or so before I gave up. If he has contributed anything to this project besides partisan political edits, please show me.

CFredkin also shows a striking disregard for this site's behavioral norms and policies. He was busted for abusive sockpuppetry designed to push a partisan agenda (see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/CFredkin/Archive), but was let off with a 2-week block. He subsequently racked up multiple blocks for edit-warring, again in service of his partisan agenda. He has become more adept at avoiding these sorts of bright-line violations, but he continues to edit-war in a more subtle manner (see this thread for one example). In light of his flagrant disregard for site policies when they stand in the way of his political agenda, his newfound stance as a defender of the project's integrity is strikingly hypocritical.

The most concerning behavior is the abuse of discretionary sanctions. CFredkin's m.o. is to reflexively revert any material that might reflect negatively on Donald Trump, regardless of how well-sourced, relevant, or policy-compliant the material may be. He then demands a "firm consensus" to reinstate the material, pointing to the discretionary-sanction requirement for contentious edits. The final step is that he stonewalls any effort generate consensus on the talkpage (together with Anythingyouwant). At best, his approach makes it a grueling weeks-long slog to insert any material into the article, since he's realized he can render anything "contentious" simply by reverting it and then invoking the discretionary sanctions. At worst, he effectively vetoes appropriate, policy-compliant material that goes against his partisan agenda, and then uses the discretionary sanctions as a weapon against good-faith editors who recognize what he's doing, as in this filing against Marek.

I'm not under any illusions as to our ability to deal with this sort of subtle, corrosive tendentious editing, but one can at least hope that discretionary sanctions should be interpreted in a way that removes obvious single-purpose tendentious agenda accounts like CFredkin, rather than rewarding them while punishing the people who have to deal with them. MastCell ^Talk 19:51, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oh no. According to CFredkin, I'm infamous, as "the admin who does no administrative work". This is a transparently disprovable lie; I've logged nearly 8,000 administrative actions here. Perhaps he meant to say that I haven't adminned much recently, which is true. Of course, I haven't edited much recently either, mostly because I'm tired of dealing with people like CFredkin.

CFredkin also provides several diffs to support the claim that I'm "generally nasty". Please, scrutinize those diffs, because he's saved me the trouble of digging them up. The first two ([19], [20]) relate to an instance where I called him out for a blatantly dishonest misrepresentation of a source. (He took a source describing the business community's horrified reaction to Donald Trump, and cherry-picked from it to write that "Trump has been endorsed by a number of members of the business community"). I'm not sure why he thinks that this reflects badly on me, rather than on him, but it is worth reviewing, especially in the context of other evidence of his unscrupulous approach to this project (for example, his deceptive use of sockpuppets).

(The third diff involves Anythingyouwant, who's previously been sanctioned for misrepresenting policies, doing more of the same). I think I was firm in response to these instances of dishonesty, but not "nasty", although I guess that's in the eye of the beholder. MastCell ^Talk 04:19, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MrX

My perception of CFredkin's editing career is reflected perfectly in MastCell's statement. CFredkin started as an SPA with a troubling history of edit warring. After several blocks, he was more careful about crossing 3RR, but still continues to edit war [21] [22] [23]. More troubling, is that he has learned how to use WP:ARBAPDS as an implement to veto content that doesn't mesh with his point of view [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [35]. These, and many more reverts like it, seem to be attempts at GAMING the system.- Mr X 23:41, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the motivation for CFredkin's editing conduct seems to derive from the need to correct perceived inequities in how Wikipedia covers politicians on opposite sides. Comments like these suggest an agenda to RIGHTGREATWRONGS:

On the positive side, CFredkin is almost always civil, and does use the talk page to discuss content. He has also made numerous improvements to article content, albeit within a narrow range of subjects.- Mr X 00:15, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tiptoethrutheminefield

An arbitration remedy that says "All editors must obtain firm consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged" simply takes discussions down to a level of whoever shouts loudest and longest wins. While this may match the state of political rhetoric and political engagement in America, it is hardly conducive to producing acceptable article content. I think the remedy is now made even worse by the decision to remove the qualifier "firm". "Firm" means something that has a sound argument behind it, something that is not going to be easily upturned, something not based on just short-term raw numbers or long-term perseverance (something that most editors assume "consensus" means). On Donald Trump presidential campaign, 2016 I see lots of pov opinions in the lede unacceptably presented as if they were facts, plus lots of weasel and editorializing. The biggest red flag is the weasel-jargon "populist" - a word that ruling elites everywhere have started to regularly use to justify their widespread unpopularity and antidemocratic actions. I see little indication from administrators that they recognize a problem, but every indication that they are happy with things as they are. We have Drmies, Wikipedia's always available "man on the Clapham omnibus" administrator, being the first to fly the boomerang flag, allowing all other administrators to flock immediately around it. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 14:52, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Johnuniq

In their 00:39, 22 September 2016 comment, CFredkin reveals an inappropriate approach including two mentions of "liberal editors". The attitude indicates that the editor should not be editing articles on US politics because Wikipedia should not be an adjunct to the election campaign. Rather than complaining about the "like-minded admins who've got your back", CFredkin should engage with the points raised by the uninvolved administrators. For example, has CFredkin ever added content that "reflects well on Clinton or poorly on Trump", or removed the inverse? What about the diffs presented, for example, by Drmies? Johnuniq (talk) 02:12, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Volunteer Marek

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I don't know if AE is set up to handle this but from where I stand, both parties have made claims against one another and both parties' behavior should be examined. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 16:56, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, and I've been looking through both of their contributions in this matter. --Laser brain (talk) 17:07, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This request doesn't hold water. There's a lot of semi-legalistic arguments in the above statements about how one should go about discussing before reverting or adding in reverted material. The re-addition of the 'Generals' sentence seems strange to me, but VM's self-revert seems to resolve that, at least in my mind. However one slices it, I don't think this singular edit is indicative of any behavior that needs to be sanctioned. I'd close this with no action, like the previous requests regarding VM. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 18:45, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Which begs the question of the boomerang... Drmies (talk) 21:33, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  - After review of the new evidence and discussion both above and in this section, I agree with Bishonen's proposal. 3 months would be sufficient, in my mind. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 03:44, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Laser brain, do you have any findings? Also, I note that the "firm consensus" wording in the template that implemented the AE remedy has been replaced with simply "consensus". This should change the behavior of editors. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:18, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm leaning heavily toward a boomerang for the filer. I see quite a bit of troubling behavior in diffs provided by MelanieN and MastCell, and I believe CFredkin is gaming DS to remove his perceived opponents. This thread is also very concerning, and I do believe he is gaming 1RR and illustrating that he considers Wikipedia to be ground zero for ideological political battles. He's edit warring and now making unfounded accusations of admins at the same time his behavior is being examined here, which indicates that he lacks the ability to see his own part in these conflicts. I suggest a three month topic ban from post-1932 US Politics. --Laser brain (talk) 13:37, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What would you think about a zero revert restriction that would allow CFredkin to continue to contribute to their area of interest but significantly disrupt their MO described above? ~Awilley (talk) 14:45, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that's sufficient, for my part, since gaming the 1RR isn't the only MO by which the user pushes for bringing articles into compliance with his own political views. Having reviewed his editing recently, I just don't think it shows any respect for NPOV, even aside from the 1RR technique. Bishonen | talk 10:13, 21 September 2016 (UTC).[reply]

Support boomerang. A three month topic ban from post-1932 US Politics, broadly construed, is just what I had started to consider applying myself, but through AE is better. If CFredkin has ever, in his diligent editing of these articles, restored content which reflects well on Clinton or poorly on Trump, or removed content which reflects well on Trump or poorly on Clinton, I haven't seen it. I'm not saying it can't have happened, but it must be vanishingly rare. He's a tendentious editor, and specifically, he has been using the discretionary sanctions as a way to force his preferred content into articles. That is not acceptable, no matter how polite a person is while doing it. Actually even the "polite" part of CFredkin's polite POV-pushing has started to flake off a little during this discussion; not that superficial courtesy is what's at stake here. I support Laser Brain's proposal. Bishonen | talk 14:42, 20 September 2016 (UTC).[reply]
I support this boomerang too, and think that three months is generous, given how old and consistent some of these diffs are. Some highlights: invoking the BLP here is completely gaming the system. This edit is very questionable and its edit summary also attempts to gain the system of DS. Same thing here, in that infamous set of edits to the Trump lede--though I actually agree with its removal from that paragraph, but it should have been placed elsewhere in the lead (that's just an editorial thing, of course). This edit to the Trump article, same thing--threatening BLP/DS while whitewashing the article. Drmies (talk) 16:09, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- CFredkin, I made this comment long before I looked at your edit history and drew the above conclusion--"it begs the question" doesn't mean I thought you should be banned or whatever. The question came up because of User:Lord Roem's comment, and it was just a question. I was not very aware, or aware at all, of you and your editorship here. Second, the Clinton Foundation AfD and the charge of retaliation, if that's what you're going for, I can see that I never clicked on the history of that article; it may be that I knew back then that you created the article, but I am not aware of it. (I can be a bit forgetful.) Finally, you say that "liberal editors have blocked any mention..." of something--well, I like to be a unifier, not a divider, and painting your opponents as "liberal editors" suggests that you have internalized not just a POV but also the thought that political POV determines editing behavior. I know some editors that I suppose are liberal, and I know some that I guess would not vote Democratic ever ever ever, but when I'm editing with them I only care about whether they can write, and whether they have a grip on neutrality and other policies. Drmies (talk) 19:22, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@CFredkin: Before, changes could be stonewalled while debating what was "firm" consensus - a nebulous notion to be sure. That won't happen any more. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 01:45, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sean.hoyland

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Sean.hoyland

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: No More Mr Nice Guy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 21:04, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Sean.hoyland (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles#Amendments

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

21:54 16 Sept First revert (notice no explanation in edit summary)
03:00 17 Sept Second revert 5 hours later, this time claiming a BLP violation.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

[36] 3 month topic ban for 1RR violation.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above.
Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months. He mentions ARBPIA 79 times in the edit summaries of his last 500 contribs, so it's safe to assume he is aware.
Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 3 May 2016.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Sean.hoyland (who according to the banner on the top of his user page edits exclusively in the ARBPIA topic area because of something related to "suppressing dissent" [37]) first appeared on the Walid Khalidi article after two weeks of no editing. Despite never having edited this article or its talk page before, he reverted another editor without explanation in the edit summary or talk page [38]. I reverted him reminding him of BRD (can be seen in the first diff I link to above). He reverted me, again with no explanation. He was reverted and 5 hours later made the second revert noted above, where he refers to BLP but does not explain what the problem is exactly.
I notified him on his talk page that he violated 1RR [39] and invited him to either participate in the discussion and explain the nature of the BLP violation he sees there or self-revert. He removed my warning and did neither.

@Kingsindian, even if your description were accurate (and it isn't. Anyone can see only 4 people including you and me have participated in the discussion in the past year, and you arrived after Sean's 1RR violation), restoring the RIGHTVERSION is not exempt from 1RR. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 04:56, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I added a link to a previous case in which Sean was reported for violating 1RR and received a 3 month topic ban. I would also like to point out that he has been warned [40] about accusing other editors of being socks without providing sufficient reasoning, as he did below.
Putting aside his ridiculous justification, I don't care if he talks to me or not. It has been long established here and elsewhere that "reverting but being unwilling to discuss the revert is unacceptable and disruptive behavior" [41]. He can address his comments to someone he likes, but he can't invent reasons for reverting without discussion and in violation of 1RR. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:15, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@JzG, could you please explain how this is "a deliberate attempt at entrapment", and by whom? Am I reading you correctly and you think someone tricked Sean into making reverts without discussion or edit summaries, and in violation of 1RR? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 02:03, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@AnotherNewAccount, you'd think a BATTLE laden rant in which an editor announces he will not collaborate with those he finds ideologically unacceptable would elicit some kind of reaction from the admins but apparently that's acceptable behavior for ARBPIA and this board. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:19, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

While we wait for the admins to finish contemplating this case (and I'm starting to get the feeling that Sean's sense of impunity is not completely unfounded), I have a question: would an editor saying it is "proven" that a living person deliberately committed academic fraud in order to "get" another academic be a BLP violation? Seems exactly like the sort of thing Wikipedia could get sued for. Such an accusation has been sitting in this thread for a few days now. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:15, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Could someone close this already? Here is a summary of the salient points that came up in the filing and resulting discussion:

1RR violation (previously topic banned for 3 months for 1RR violation: [42])
Refuses to discuss his reverts ("reverting but being unwilling to discuss the revert is unacceptable and disruptive behavior": [43])
Proclaims here and on his talk page that he's an SPA only interested in reverting other editors in ARBPIA, and his edits in the last several months reflect this.

I gather you guys are going to just ignore all these things which would, for most other editors, result in indef bans (I wish you were more honest about your reasons for this. Entrapment? Come on), but someone is going to have to close this and put their name on the close. It's not going to just get archived. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:28, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Kamel, there's no consensus problem here. Not a single admin has indicated they accept Sean's BLP reasoning. Not a single admin said Sean's behavior was acceptable or that he didn't violate the Arbcom mandated 1RR restriction. There's a consensus, they just don't want to act on it. Apparently some editors get extra privileges, like not being bound by Arbcom decisions or normal editing practices. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:27, 26 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@T. Canens, don't forget to note you're using your discretion to let his refusal to discuss his reverts slide as well. Someone might compare this request to the filing just below and get the wrong (or right) idea. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:43, 27 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Nishidani, on the contrary, I'm arguing that cases should be judged only on their merits and regardless of what "side" an editor is on. Usually someone who violates the 1RR restriction would get sanctioned (see below). If they had been previously topic banned for a similar offence they would get a longer topic ban (I can easily show dozens of examples). Usually the fact someone outright refuses to discuss their reverts is of concern to admins (see below), not something to be ignored. Usually BATTLEGROUND fueled rants on AE get people sanctioned. Etc, etc. Why is this is a special case? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:19, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[44]

Discussion concerning Sean.hoyland

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Sean.hoyland

Ed, I don't think your solution will work. Firstly, I don't think there can be a legitimate consensus to include a misquote presented as a legitimate quote and so I will not pursue one. The evidence that demonstrates that the Village Statistics 1945 survey was misquoted was provided on the talk page (see here) and the orginal document can be seen at the National Library of Israel here (see Explanatory Note, paragraph A/5). Secondly, I choose who to engage with in ARBPIA. It is not a choice for anyone else to make and it excludes people I regard as belligerant ethno-nationalist POV-pushers and/or sockpuppets. There also has to be a good reason to expose myself to the inevitable pitifully infantile personal attacks that accompany engagement with these kinds of editors on talk pages (many examples of which can be seen at Talk:Walid_Khalidi#Dr_Brawer_quote), and in this case there was not. So for me, there will be no response to statements made by NMMNG and Epson Salts here or anywhere else, no dialog or collaboration, no replies to questions, no explanations and no discussion on talk pages and no seeking consensus with these individuals on this or any issue. If that results in a block or topic ban, the benefit for me personally outweighs the cost of engagement. Sean.hoyland - talk 16:39, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I should add that, while I have made hundreds, perhaps thousands of 1RR violations in ARBPIA reverting disruptive editors (as anyone can see from my edit history), I don't believe this was a 1RR violation. I think the removal was justified by WP:BLPREMOVE because a statement that criticizes a living person based on a demonstrably false quotation of the source they used fails the basic verifiability test. The source cited is simply wrong. The associated quote can and should be removed, in my view. There was no justification for the repeated restoration of the misquote and no amount of waiting or discussion could produce a situation that would justify its restoration based on policy. A legitimate consensus for that is impossible. There was nothing to wait for and there is never a good reason to avoid the inevitable reports that follow from any attempt to suppress the illegitimate actions of belligerent ethno-nationalist POV-pushers in sock and/or non-sock form. 1RR is not there to facilitate editors repeatedly and knowingly restoring false information into a BLP and self-preservation is not a valid reason to delay an action that an editor or bot regards as justified by policy in my view. Any long term editor knows that effective suppression of the disruption and contamination that inevitably follows from Wikipedia's inability to exclude these kinds of editors from ARBPIA will have costs for the editors doing it. So admins can do as they see fit and there will be no complaints from me. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:58, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

AnotherNewAccount, you are correct that I have 'no intention of editing collegially with those whom he deems "belligerant[sic] ethno-nationalist POV-pushers'. You are incorrect in assuming this is related to an "ideological agenda", but that doesn't matter. I had the privilege of attending a good college where working 'collegially' was possible. Perhaps in the future it will be possible to edit this way in ARBPIA with all editors, but right now that is neither possible or advisable in my view. The topic area does not have an effective admissions policy and so the notion of 'editing collegially' is wishful thinking and an irresponsible policy that exposes editors to attacks and the idiocy and ugliness of nationalism. My view after many years of editing, is that editors in ARBPIA should not collaborate with these kinds of editors because it is counterproductive. Editors who violate WP:NOTADVOCATE should not be here in the first place. Collaboration perpetuates the toxic unsafe environment which is why my edits are now restricted to uncommunicative bot-like reverts mostly of long-term-abuse accounts. I am glad that you misidentify these as "often good-faith new editor[s]" because the less you know about it the better. ARBPIA should be treated as an unsafe work area in my opinion and shutdown until Wikipedia can provide an effective measure of protection to editors and content.

Re: Kamel's 'directly rendering Wikipedia's policies meaningless' statement. This is nonsense. Wikipedia's policies are already meaningless. Bear in mind that in practice I have absolute impunity. I can literally do as I please. If blocked I can create as many accounts as I wish, all of which would be impossible to confirm as sockpuppets because, like many others, I have the access to the resources and experience necessary to do that. The fact that I wouldn't do that is just a random factor over which Wikipedia has no effective control whatsoever. Blocking is only effective against people with integrity, which sadly means it is largely ineffective in ARBPIA.

Re: Sir Joseph's statement "It is a common practice for those on the Palestinian side to claim sockpuppet for other people. We see that here and that has to stop. It is a chilling atmosphere when every dispute has allegations of sockpuppetry." The reason it's common practice to claim sockpuppet for other people is because it is common practice in ARBPIA for people to use sockpuppets. I'm aware that accusing someone of sockpuppetry without filing an SPI report is an article of faith the Church of Wikipedia. I haven't accused anyone of sockpuppetry here but I would have no qualms doing so even if it resulted in a block. I have simply reflected the reality that in ARBPIA the editors can be legitimate editors or socks, and the mix is probably 50/50. Complaining about the number of sockpuppets or telling people to shut up about sockpuppets does no good either way. It changes nothing. Blocking a sock changes nothing, they will just come back. In practice, if an editor that resembles a sock behaves well, does not violate WP:NOTADVOCATE, complies with all content policies, they will be left alone. But if they harass editors they dislike, which is what usually happens, or go back to their misuse of Wikipedia, someone is going to say they resemble a sock, and wishing they didn't or blocking them for voicing their opinion changes nothing. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:54, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kingsindian

Please see the comment I made here on the talkpage. The basic issue is that there is (at least) 6-2 or 7-2 consensus on the talkpage to pare down some material, which is being obstructed by one editor by using wikilawyering. In the face of this obstructionism, Sean.hoyland has violated WP:1RR. You can "punish" the 1RR violation, or see the underlying issue. Up to you. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 02:40, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am not surprised that Epson Salts is wikilawyering here as well. Here's the consensus timeline. The initial discussion was a year ago, which nobody objected to, 3-0. Here Zero made the first edit which they forgot to do a year ago. Epson Salts reverted (3-1). Sean Hoyland reverted (4-1). Nishidani commented (5-1). NMMNG commented and re-reverted (5-2). Sean Hoyland reverted again. I comment (6-2). Pluto2012 commented (7-2).

This is of course not the first time Epson Salts has engaged in wikilawyering. Nor is it the first time they have given an unsolicited opinion that Zero and Nishidani should not be editing in ARBPIA, insinuations about source falsification, personal attacks and so on. One can easily find a ton of pages where they insert themselves into a content dispute, always to throw gasoline on it. I can give diffs if required. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 16:03, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Can we close this, one way or another? There is no more edit-warring on the text and there are proposals on the talk page to fix the text, one way or another, without including the misquote from Brauer directly. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 04:08, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Zero0000

Although it would have been good for Sean to state his explanation more expansively on the talk page, I believe that it is a reasonable judgement that the revert was justified by the BLP rules. As KI says, one editor is wikilawyering to keep a fake quotation in the BLP, that reflects badly on the subject of the BLP, despite everyone agreeing that it is fake. Even if you disagree that this justifies a revert, I think you should see it as a fair call made in good faith. Zero^talk 05:38, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@EdJohnston: Actually a link to a scan of the misquoted document has been on that talk page for over a year; see Huldra's text "I agree". Everyone has long all they needed to check that there was indeed a misquote. Zero^talk 23:23, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Epson Salts is easily the worst editor in the I/P area at the moment and I challenge anyone to identify any positive contribution he/she has made to the encyclopedia. What I see is endless POV-pushing, stonewalling, sneering and abusive tone and bad faith. The case brought here is actually representative. Any editor who is dedicated to article improvement, on noticing an objectively incorrect item in an article (in this case, a BLP even) will be thinking about how to fix the error within the rules. Epson Salts instead wastes the time of multiple editors by fatuous wikilawyering to keep the incorrect item in the article. The reason is quite obvious if you examine the direction of his POV-pushing. He/she even went to WP:NORN without notifying anyone else in the discussion and tried to get support by means of a distorted description (he/she makes it sound like a disagreement between an editor's opinion and a source's opinion, but it is nothing of the sort). Zero^talk 23:58, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement byEpson Salts

This is a very clear cut case of 1RR violation. Even the editors who posted here in support of Sen.hoyland do not deny that fact. I won't go into detail into the misrepresentations by Kingsindian or Zero as to the nature of the dispute (the quote is not 'fake' - we are talking about a possibly missing ellipsis; the current discussion is 4:2; it obviously can't be obstructionism by a single editor if they concede there are at least two who opposed to their position etc...) - because we are not supposed to be rehashing and deciding content issues here- that's for the talk page discussion - a page where Sean hoyland has been conspicuously absent. The question before us here is - do we allow 1RR violations for what some editors think are 'good' edits. That's a very slippery slope. Epson Salts (talk) 13:19, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Drmies: You are confused as to the argument I am making. A noted scholar, who is a geographer by training and current occupation, who is published in a peer-reviewed academic journal on a topic of geography, is an academic source. An activist, who is an anthropologist by training and a current researcher in internet activism, who is published in a group blog on a topic far outside her academic expertise (WII history, Nazism and Arab antisemitism), is not. There's nothing inconsistent about this position.

Would you care to point out where I am wikilawyeirng on the relevant talk page? I have already said I am willing to rephrase the Brawer crticism and have asked Zero0000 for a proposal for such re-write - what is the issue?

And let me understand the position you are taking: It is ok to violate an Arbcom mandated 1RR restriction, refuse to discuss the reasons for the revert, and declare that you will continue to do so in the future , provided it is a revert to the "right version"? It would be useful to know this. Epson Salts (talk) 22:43, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Nishidani

There is no 'misrepresentation' by those editors. The second diff constitutes an IR violation, but was motivated as a WP:BLP violation. Zero outlined a case one year ago that the quote from Brawer comes from him running together two sentences widely separated, with a crucial element missing, to formulate a criticism of another scholar, Walid Khalidi.Nota bene that on perceiving this, he did not rush to 'score' a point, the vice of many editors here. He waited a year for further collegial input This is an inexpugnable fact which ES still challenges above: 'we are talking about a possibly missing ellipsis. I.e. the talk page has the evidence, a scan has been provided to verify the full text, the fact that Brawer in defiance of fundamental scholarly practice dropped the (. . . .) marks indicating an ellipse, to get at Khalidi is proven. For ES it remains a possibility. That is wikilawyering on WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT principles.

A further point.In reverting Sean.hoyland’s revert Epson Salts’s edit summary reads: disruptive edit warring by editor not participating in the discussion. But that is precisely what ESS does. For example, this, at Max Blumenthal, where he reverted never having participated on that talk page. Epson Salts varies policy reasons for reverts from page to page, indulges in abuse of, and bad faith accusations of several editors, and when told to desist replies:'You get back exactly what you dish out', which misses the point. I asked him to stop abusing Zero, not me. There is no trace in Zero's edit record of intemperate language. Hoyland should have waited: there were several eyes on that page. But it is not as if he can't see what has been obvious to several editors since ES arrived on the I/P scene.Nishidani (talk) 21:55, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I accept the I/P area is always going to be difficult. But there is an uptick in hostility and sneering recently that is effectively making any form of editing close to impossible because the hostility is undisguised, and it comes with theories about me, or others. I am assumed to be a Hamas-POV pusher (here and here, herewhere the technical literature I cite (per WP:NPOV - one cannot just cite incidents of terror and cancel out what the huge scholarship on it regularly produces as contextualization or theories regarding its causes - is then interpreted invariably as 'my opinion'), or part of a 'gang of buddies' who are going to get what, apparently, 'we' dished out now the 'shoe is on the other foot' (here; here against Zero;here; or here), which today echoes exactly the unembarrassed, openly 'vindictive' declaration of an intent to 'dish it out' to a perceived group which I mentioned earlier. It comes, note, after The Blade of the Northern Lights advised him to 'tone down' the aggressiveness he flaunts.Nishidani (talk) 21:15, 24 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

NMMGG/KT.The innuendo above that the respective merits of each particular case be ignored, and that in its place all I/P cases be collapsed into 'if you take one of our guys out, you have to take one of theirs' logic, and if you don't, you're biased, is, if not rhetorically coercive, then arguably intimidatory, and out of place. If a IR rule is broken, though the reason of the reverter had a policy basis, that is one thing. A sanction is probable, but it is not to be taken as identical to repeated aggressive personal attacks, amply documented, by the editor Hoyland reverted. There is no mechanical parity between the respective behaviours. Hoyland is not fighting a sanction, if his interpretation for the second revert is invalid. Epson Salts has been attacking everyone. They are two qualitatively distinct forms of behavior. Nishidani (talk) 20:37, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Huldra

Ah, this is a case of horrible "wiki-lawyering"; saying that if anyone is scholar, is a WP:RS, therefor should be represented. Well, there are countless of WP:RS-sources which gives the number of killed in the Deir Yassin massacre around 250. Today we know this isn´t true, so we do not use them in the article (except to note that the estimates of killed were earlier larger.)

That Brawer is a scholar does not mean that everything he wrote is correct. When shown that what he wrote was not correct, then it is a horrible (sanctionable?) idea to put it into an article. Huldra (talk) 23:46, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

OK, the Brawer quote S.H removed twice is: [According to Brawer, the reliability of the original version is in doubt,] to the point where the explanatory note on the original 1945 version specifically states: "The population estimates published here cannot, however, be considered other than rough estimates which in some instances may ultimate be found to differ considerable from the actual figures." This in a discussion of Khalidi`s 1992 book: All that remains.

Besides the fact that the Brawer quote is not as stated in the Village Statistics 1945, it also seems to me that Brawer wants to give the impression that Khalidi has hidden the fact that the 1945 populations were estimates. However, Khalidi does no such thing. On p. xxi in "All that remains" Khalidi writes: "It should also be stressed that the population figures are not the result of an actual census but extrapolations as at year-end 1944 prepared by the Mandatory Government´s Department of Statistics on the basis of the 1931 census."

It is not Khalidi´s fault that the 1945 populations figures were estimates!

To me: if editors add the full Brawer quote to Khalidi´s BLP, it indicates that the editors have no knowledge of Khalidi´s work, Huldra (talk) 21:03, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kamel Tebaast

Most all of Sean.hoyland's edits are reverts, s/he walks the fine line and knows the rules, and you admins are suggesting a warning for a 1RR. No topic ban! No block! Nothing! A warning! You're out of order! You're all out of order! The whole trial is out of order! They're out of order! That man, that crazy man, reverted everyone, and he'd like to do it again! It's just a show! It's a show! It's "Let's Make A Deal"! "Let's Make A Deal"! Hey Admins, you wanna "Make A Deal"? I got an insane judge who likes to let off Palestinian nationalists with warnings! Whaddya wanna gimme Admins, 3 weeks probation? Kamel Tebaast 07:56, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Drmies: Not my fault you don't know one of Pachino's best scenes ...And Justice For All

@Zero0000: The worst editor in the A/I area is Sean.holyland. Since 11 August 2008, s/he has made 5,739 revisions. Clearly very little "positive contribution he/she has made to the encyclopedia".

@Kingsindian: You don't find it ironic that you wrote about Epson Salts giving "unsolicited opinion" about other editors while you were giving an unsolicited opinion about another editor?

@Admins: Enough with all these straw man and misdirection arguments, refocusing on other editor diversions, and, a first that I've heard on Wikipedia, "entrapment". With 5,739 REVISIONS, most all in the A/I area, Sean.hoyland clearly knew the rules. S/he made two reverts in five hours and bi-passed the opportunity to self-revert and discuss in Talk. A sanction must be given. If not, you are directly rendering Wikipedia's policies meaningless, and you are adding to the real concern that Wikipedia has one set of rules for editors who support Palestinian nationalism and one for editors who support Israel. Kamel Tebaast 16:01, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Can Wikicourt end with no consensus? Kamel Tebaast 18:21, 26 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@NMMNG, you're forgetting some very important details. The admins acknowledged that "wikilawyering" and "entrapment" were the real culprits, apparently causing Sean.H to act this way. Kamel Tebaast 20:11, 26 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@T. Canens: As a relatively new editor who wants to learn, and for all the new editors, can you please explain how you justify that an undisputed 1RR violation should "slide", while many other editors have received sanctions for far less? Thank you. Kamel Tebaast 17:16, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sir Joseph

Two things need to be kept in mind. (I am not taking any sides in the content dispute or 1RR since I haven't looked into it.) It is a common practice for those on the Palestinian side to claim sockpuppet for other people. We see that here and that has to stop. It is a chilling atmosphere when every dispute has allegations of sockpuppetry. Secondly, the claim that there will be no interaction, no explanation, no discussion is completely contrary to Wikipedia. When someone edits they are editing under the guidelines that there will 100% be discussions and explanations. These comments need to be addressed, independent of the actual 1RR case presented here. 🔯 Sir Joseph ^🍸(talk) 16:12, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding calling others socks, Sean Hoyland was already warned for this before. Here is one time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive152#Sean.hoyland Quite frankly I'm surprised no admins are commenting on his statements that he will not cooperate with editors. 🔯 Sir Joseph ^🍸(talk) 20:36, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by AnotherNewAccount

This is a very clear 1RR violation, and I fail to see how the content in question violates BLP guidelines either. (As for Kingsindian's supposed "consensus", it looks very much to me like a traditional ARBPIA non-consensus: the standard sizable group of pro-Palestinian editors with strong views all agreeing with each other, out-arguing the rump of 1-2 opposing editors by sheer force of numbers. Neutral editors, are of course, entirely absent.)

Scrutinizing the accused editor's overall conduct of late, I question whether Sean.hoyland is even here to build an encyclopedia anymore. The last few months' editing has consisted of little more than ideological revert ninjaing and POV-motivated enforcements of 30/500 without even the courtesy of an explanation to the often good-faith new editor being reverted. Reading his rant above, it's clear that he has no intention of editing collegially with those whom he deems "belligerant[sic] ethno-nationalist POV-pushers" - that is, those editors who oppose his heavy ideological agenda. I was originally going to suggest he be placed on 0RR, but demonstrating this clear battleground mentality, I now think administrators should consider a topic ban. AnotherNewAccount (talk) 20:15, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ijon Tichy

Sean.hoyland should be sanctioned for clearly violating the 1RR restriction. Perhaps a (short-term, temporary) topic-ban or block. I greatly respect and admire Sean's work, he is a net positive asset to the project by a very wide margin, he is clearly here to build an encyclopedia, and does a great job of reverting a wide range of edits by disruptive editors. Sean's work always strictly follows, and asserts, Wikipedia policies and guidelines across many articles in the I/P topic area(s). I hope that he will soon decide to exit his retirement or semi-retirement and resume contributing many more edits to the encyclopedia --- I enjoy reading his good work. However, he broke the rules (which is a very rare behavior for him) and should bear the consequences.

Meanwhile, Epson Salts appears to continue to edit disruptively while completely ignoring the warnings and helpful advice that were provided to him here on this board from experienced users including Kingsindian, Zero0000, Nishidani, Huldra, Drmies, JzG, and The Blade of the Northern Lights, as well as from user Joe Roe here. For just one recent example of Epson Salt's many disruptive edits over the last few months, users may want to take a look at Talk:2008 Dimona suicide bombing. This is just one representative case of the numerous incidents where Epson Salts has used WP as a battleground and where Epson Salts has continued to relentlessly hound and personally attack Nishidani across numerous WP articles, despite many requests and warnings by Nishidani, and others, to stop. Ijon Tichy (talk) 17:11, 24 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Sean.hoyland

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I would close this with a warning to User:Sean.hoyland that he may be blocked if he edits the Walid Khalidi article again without getting prior consensus on the talk page. Sean's second revert doesn't appear to be justified by BLP. People are claiming that the Village Statistics 1945 survey could have been misquoted but there is not quite enough information provided at Talk:Walid Khalidi#Dr Brawer quote to be sure that happened. EdJohnston (talk) 15:43, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with EdJohnston--respectfully of course! I think that Sean.hoyland hasn't been perfect here, but it is pretty obvious to me that indeed Epson Salts is wikilawyering on the talk page where there seems to be a pretty clear consensus that a. not every apparently status quo is a "stable version" and b. the challenged material was indeed excessive and its source questionable. I note that Epson Salts claims that "sourced, academic material" (a rather vague adjective, that second one) shouldn't be reverted, though in another discussion (still at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Miriyam_Aouragh_as_a_source_for_the_views_of_Gilbert_Achcar) they are acting as if they believe the opposite. So yes, I think I'm with Kingsindian here (that that day would ever come...) and I think that the underlying issue needs to be dealt with here. If one calls Sean.hoyland's disruptive or in violation of this or that, then surely the handiwork by Epson Salts is, and I think that they're ready for a topic ban. That is, I think Wikipedia is ready for that. Drmies (talk) 22:33, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, Epson Salts, not confused, but your sarcasm is appreciated. Drmies (talk) 02:45, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Kamel Tebaast, I love a bit of entertainment, but huh? what? Drmies (talk) 17:30, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Frankly, this looks to me like a deliberate attempt at entrapment. Sean.hoyland needs a shot across the bows, which is fair, but nothing more. And Epson Salts needs a pretty strong warning to watch his step. Guy (Help!) 23:26, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Essentially agree with JzG, and further emphasis that Epson Salts seriously needs to back it way down. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:04, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest this be closed with a strong warning to Epson Salts for wikilawyering and wasting time. I don't see much reason to sanction or warn Sean.hoyland or No More Mr Nice Guy. Bishonen | talk 09:43, 27 September 2016 (UTC).[reply]
For Epson Salts, I would go for a topic ban right now. I think we can use our discretion to let this 1RR violation slide. T. Canens (talk) 15:59, 27 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- I have no objection to a topic ban for Epson Salts, either. Bishonen | talk 01:41, 1 October 2016 (UTC).[reply]

ה-זפר

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning ה-זפר

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Supreme Deliciousness (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 00:47, 24 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: ה-זפר (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: [1rr]

pov pushing
vioaltion of npov

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Revision as of 19:19, 15 September 2016
Revision as of 21:55, 16 September 2016
Revision as of 18:21, 18 September 2016
Revision as of 18:50, 18 September 2016
Revision as of 16:49, 22 September 2016
Revision as of 03:04, 23 September 2016
Revision as of 21:49, 23 September 2016 "the edit was neutral and enhancement of the article head. discussion net required."

In the edits above he puts Hebrew before Arabic in the infobox and main article text, changes the map to an Israel north east map removes "occupied" by Israel in infobox and changes it to "control", adds Israel time zone.

I warned him at his talkpage and he continued to edit war and violate the 1rr after:[45]

He has not made one single post at the talkpage, he is just resorting to edit warring. I asked him to please discuss at talkpage and get consensus and he just continued to edit war:[46] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:48, 24 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3A%D7%94-%D7%96%D7%A4%D7%A8&type=revision&diff=740892709&oldid=740860033

Discussion concerning ה-זפר

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by ה-זפר

Statement by Debresser

This editor is damn annoying, but that isn't specific to his editing in the IP-conflict field. I think that it would be more beneficial for this project if WP:AE would explain to him the essentials of community editing one last time, and put him on probation. Debresser (talk) 15:23, 27 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Malik Shabazz

My experience with ה-זפר has largely been limited to the article about Israel, but I find that the editor rarely uses edit summaries or the talk page, and inappropriately marks most edits minor. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 01:27, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning ה-זפר

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

In addition to the two blatant 1RR violations after a warning specifically about it ([47]), I'm quite spectacularly unimpressed by the attitude shown in these edits: [48] ("the edit was neutral and enhancement of the article head. discussion net required."), and [49] ("Enhanced the head. Added currently administrated by. My edit is not disputed. I'm just adding current administration status. [de facto and de jure cannot be used]"). For clarity's sake, ה-זפר: If someone disagrees with or reverts your edits, they are in dispute and discussion absolutely is required. This type of aggressive, dismissive attitude has no place in a sensitive area like ARBPIA, and I'd support a lengthy topic ban for both that and the blatant 1RR violations and general edit warring. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 10:11, 27 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Towns Hill

Blocked 72 hours to prevent further disruption of the India-Pakistan topic area. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 00:59, 1 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Towns Hill

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: EvergreenFir (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:03, 26 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Towns Hill (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBIPA :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

03:13, 26 September 2016 Editing in section about the‎ Kashmir conflict
03:13 - 7:29, 23 September 2016‎ (4 consecutive edits) Explanation
03:13, 23 September 2016 Adding content about Bangladesh on Wartime sexual violence
22:31, 22 September 2016 Creating content about Bangladesh on Wartime sexual violence
06:24 - 8:23, 19 September 2016‎ (5 consecutive edits) Creating section about Kashmir on Wartime sexual violence
00:08 - 02:58, 29 August 2016‎ (13 consecutive edits) Added content about Kashmir on Wartime sexual violence
07:27-10:59, 28 August 2016‎ (4 consecutive edits) Added content about Kashmir on Wartime sexual violence
09:25, 30 August 2016 Edited on article about battle from Indo-Pakistani War of 1971

Diff since AE filing

11:14, 27 September 2016 Reinserted Kashmir content on Wartime sexual violence with edit summary "Sexual crimes by Indian occupation forces against Kashmiri women is not part of Indo-Pakistan conflict (which is separate and dates to 1947). Its part of Indo-Kashmiri conflict. This referenced and cited section cannot be removed by a random IP address."

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

02:49, 24 March 2016 You may make no more than one revert every 24 hours to a page within the India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan topic area for a period of 1 month, subject to the standard exceptions by Slakr
15:12, 15 May 2016 Banned from the topic of conflicts between India and Pakistan and from anything to do with Bangladesh by EdJohnston

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on 15:12, 15 May 2016 by EdJohnston (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

User was also indef blocked by Diannaa on 19:22, 30 August 2016 copyvio and later unblocked.

The Kashmir conflict clearly falls under ARBIPA as it's an ongoing conflict between India and Pakistan. Anything related to that conflict or Indian/Pakistani actions in that area would easily fall under the discretionary sanctions, broadly construed. I agree with Lankiveil that it's disingenuous to suggest Kashmir is not under these DS. EvergreenFir (talk) 00:46, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

17:04, 26 September 2016

Discussion concerning Towns Hill

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Towns Hill

Actually I think all this is being over-interpreted. I have not edited anything contentious re. Bangladesh or Indo-Pakistan disputes. Rape of Kashmiri women by Indian troops is not part of Indo-Pakistan conflict. Its part of the Indo-Kashmir conflict. Towns_Hill 11:55, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
Conflicts between India and Pakistan do not include conflict between India and Kashmiri people. If Indian army is raping Kashmiri women, it does not fall under Indo-Pakistan conflict. What would fall under Indo-Pakistan conflict would be the charge that the Indian Army raped Pakistani women.Towns_Hill 00:30, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Statement by SheriffIsInTown

As he is still a fairly new editor, I am pretty sure he has misunderstood his restrictions and thought that Wartime sexual violence does not come under this restriction, as he is been staying away religiously from the pages which got him this topic-ban at the first place. This is a common mistake made by new editors when under a topic-ban as they think that the restriction is on the article names rather than content. Requesting that he should be given a leeway here with a more clearer explanation as how these restrictions apply to the edits he made. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 17:43, 26 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@RegentsPark: Blocks/bans are supposed to be preventative rather than punitive, he did not respond yet himself but my thinking is that he must have misunderstood these restrictions as I can see he stayed away from most of those articles which were specific to Bangladesh. Wartime sexual violence is not specific to Bangladesh. I see a potential of good contributor in him and think he should not be punished. Maybe he can be given a rope here. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 18:59, 26 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Towns Hill topic-ban was invalid to begin-with, it was issued in haste and was based on a rather inflammatory comment of one editor to an admin's TP. He was never reported at AE and was not given a chance to defend himself. He was banned on a comment of an editor who went on admin shopping and knew which admin would be more than willing to entertain his request because that specific admin has been mentioning distributing topic-bans on forums in the past. Bans/Blocks should not be distributed like candies and avoided as much as possible until they are absolutely necessary as they put a huge stain on an editor's credibility and history especially when the editor is a new editor. Towns Hill's t-ban should be reviewed and reversed. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 10:20, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Volunteer Marek

@User:EdJohnston - dropping "and Bangladesh" from the restriction is just going to cause a shift in the problematic behavior. Like a balloon - you press in one place, it gets bigger in another. And that area has a lot of problems already (SheriffIsInTown's presence here indicates that if TownsHill is let loose there, it will probably get worse). @User:Seraphimblade - Bangladesh was part of Pakistan until the bloody and brutal Liberation War in 1971. That war also involved India. So for most practical purposes "and Bangladesh" is redundant with "conflicts between India and Pakistan". I'm assuming it was added in there just so TownsHill or whoever can't try to WP:WIKILAWYER it. I mean, there probably are some articles which are about "just Bangladesh" and are not somehow tied up with the India-Pakistan conflict, but probably not many, and in any case, these are not the ones that TownsHill chooses to edit.

As an aside, I do wonder if the increase in disruptive activity on Bangladesh-related articles correlates with the imposition of discretionary sanctions on India-Pakistan in 2012. It's possible that users who wanted to fight over I-P conflicts realized that was an easy way to get sanctioned, so they went over to Bangladesh articles to fights their battlegrounds there by proxy. I can think of a couple accounts who seem to fit that pattern. Another good reason to leave "and Bangladesh" in there.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:53, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi

I'd just like to point out that although it is belt and braces to insert 'and Bangladesh,' the provision on the original restriction- that is, 'broadly construed'- should be enough to include it. Since, as had been pointed out above, before 1971 it actually was part of Pakistan ('East Pakistan'), it is disingenuous to argue that is now completely irrelevant.

Statement by Kautilya3

Just a note to say that the user has also edited Partition of India after this report was filed. The edit even adds text saying Thus the 1946 election was effectively a plebiscite where the Indian Muslims were to vote on the creation of Pakistan. The edit summary is worth noting too. It does seem that the user has great difficulty understanding the scope of their topic ban. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:01, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Towns Hill

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Not sure what clarification is needed. The restrictions clearly apply to anything to do with Bangladesh and there are a whole string of edits on that topic. So also is the India Pakistan conflict restriction. Sexual violence during the conflict is clearly about the conflict. On the face of it, these are clear and umambiguous violations of the ban. --regentspark (comment) 18:07, 26 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps Bangladesh, the part not covered by the liberation war, can be withdrawn because much of that is independent of India and Pakistan. However, that still leaves many problematic edits. The ones connected with the liberation war, the Kashmir conflict ones, the annexation of Hyderabad (definitely India/Pakistan related). I'm willing to be lenient, but TownsHill's own statement leaves a lot to be desired. Disassembling aside, the majority of the edits are India Pakistan related. --regentspark (comment) 22:41, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to hear from EdJohnston as to how the topic ban from Bangladesh-related topics works. WP:ARBIPA authorizes discretionary sanctions for India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, but I can't find anything indicating that the area of the case was ever broadened to Bangladesh. If it wasn't, that portion of the ban seems to exceed the authority to impose sanctions and wouldn't have been valid to start with. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 10:24, 27 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- I do see that there are several problematic edits aside from the Bangladesh portion. I'd endorse the suggestion of a 72-hour block, and removing the portion of the sanction regarding Bangladesh (though with the caution that if any edits regarding Bangladesh touch on the ARBIPA area, they are still covered under the ban and can be accordingly sanctioned). Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 21:32, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The restriction I imposed on User:Towns Hill says "Banned from the topic of conflicts between India and Pakistan and from anything to do with Bangladesh." I would be open to dropping "and from anything to do with Bangladesh". However this won't make the present complaint go away, since all the diffs given above (except #4) apply to war-torn countries where Indian and Pakistan were fighting. The atrocities that were said to be committed in Kashmir were due to India-Pakistan conflict. Diff #4 does not violate the restriction because it was a charge that rapes were committed by soldiers of the post-independence Bangladeshi army. EdJohnston (talk) 21:07, 27 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think a clarification (or extension) is required to make it clear that matters relating to military conflict in Kashmir absolutely come under the banner of "conflicts between India and Pakistan", given the frozen conflict between the two states over the territory. It does to me seem somewhat disingenuous to claim that one thought the ban didn't already apply in that situation, however. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 11:38, 28 September 2016 (UTC).[reply]
The edit linked to by Kautilya3 would seem to indicate that this user is probing at the limits of the topic ban to see how far they can go. Initially I was happy to go with good faith, but I'm finding that an increasingly difficult position to maintain. A short block might be in order. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 09:55, 30 September 2016 (UTC).[reply]
I think at least a 72 hour block, and a firm notice that this sort of thing is going to lead to very rapidly escalating blocks. There's no shortage of disruption in India-related articles, and it gets amplified several orders of magnitude if admins don't send an unambiguous message that they will enforce sanctions. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:25, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Nishidani

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Nishidani

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Debresser (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 22:21, 27 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Nishidani (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles :

Specifically Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles#Decorum and Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles#Standard_discretionary_sanctions.

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

28.9.16 Personal attack in the claim that I am "drifting", in the claim that I argue "from self-esteem". WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT claim that my objections are not policy/guideline-based.

He acted precisely in the same manner the last time we disagreed on the talkpage of an IP-conflict related article, Talk:Mahmoud_Abbas#Gilbert_Achcar, with blatant WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT behavior.[50] The insults were at other pages during that same time.[51][52]

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Archive_11#Amendment_request:_Debresser_.28August_2016.29.
Was warned recently.[53]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: [54]

Further comments

@Kingsindian Content dispute? This post is about incivility in a very specific and sensitive area, where there exist clear standards of behavior, that have been violated. This post is about tendentious editing. When an editor asks for a policy/guideline even after it has been provided again and again, and does so on various talkpages, to create the false impression as though those who disagree with him refuse to reply to his "legitimate" request, and thereby show them as though illegitimate, that is extremely disruptive behavior. Debresser (talk) 23:14, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Nableezy If all you see in this post is a complaint about the words "drifting", then you are either trying to deliberately mislead editors here, or you are completely unfit to edit articles in the IP-conflict area. Debresser (talk) 23:14, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@All I find it telling that editors with a well know POV try to make it look as though this post is about some triviality. This post is about a very smart editor, who knows how to hide his blatant POV and tendentious editing behind a mask of adherence to Wikipedia policies and guidelines, but is guilty of minor but systematic transgressions for years now, and it is about time he is called to answer for that. This WP:AE post is about what just a small example of that behavior, which I hope suffices to get him warned or temporarily topic banned, and my hope and expectation is that Nishidani will see it as a warning and mend his ways. Debresser (talk) 23:14, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Nishidani Why do you say I represent the Israeli point of view?[55] (and many more edits that prove I am a good editor, who does not let his personal opinions stand in the way of good editing) Debresser (talk) 17:04, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@The Wordsmith If all you saw in my report is 1 mildly standoffish comment, then I suggest you read it again. Shame on you. Debresser (talk) 17:04, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@AnotherNewAccount Nice collection. In my post I only wrote about his insults to me, not other editors, and even there you found another good example I had already forgotten about, since this way of denigrating talk has become expected from Nishidani. The only correction I would like to make to your post is minor, that I didn't "boil over", rather calmly reached the decision to post here in an attempt to finally stop Nishidani's POV pushing. I am glad to see my take on Nishidani's editing is shared by other editors. Debresser (talk) 00:42, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Ijon Tichy You are falling in Nishidani's trap too. I don't have to quote the policy page to quote policy! If I say something is not reliably sourced, do I have to provide a link to WP:RS? If I say something is not relevant, e.g., do you really need a link to a policy page, or is it evident that information should be relevant? Debresser (talk) 18:13, 1 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Nishidani 1. A suggestive question is not a reliable source, even if the person who asked it would be a reliable source if he made a clear statement. One of the two uninvolved editors who replied at WP:RS/N said so specifically. 2. With only two uninvolved editor replying at WP:RS/N and one of them saying "In short, it is not encyclopedic." and the other "The only question I see is if his comments *should* be included. Which would be an NPOV issue. Personally I favour inclusion but there might be a slight BLP issue", how did Nableezy, or anybody else for that matter, reach the conclusion that the WP:RS/N wasn't in in my favor? That is delusional! Debresser (talk) 21:32, 1 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Nishidani

This is vexatiously piddling, and coming quickly in the wake of Debresser's earlier problems here (arguing without regard to policy), doesn’t look like he has absorbed the lesson. Indeed, above in the indictment, he expressly shows that he has not accepted that verdict by directly referring to my behavior at Talk:Mahmoud_Abbas#Gilbert_Achcar and citing as evidence a diffwhere I pleaded with him to drop the chat and argue from policy. He was sanctioned for refusing to listen.

This is essentially a clash over whether the same interpretation of the rules should be applied to events regarding Israeli victims of terrorism, and Palestinian victims of terrorism, regardless of the ethnicity involved. I insist that editors are obliged by WP:NPOV to adopt the same criterion everywhere. Several Israeli victim pages include the names of the injured. No one objects. When I added the names of Palestinians maimed in an Israeli terrorist attack, Debresser suddenly objected. After 14 years of wikipedia, that one can still hairsplit and argue the point to exhaustive attrition on very simple policy guidelines in the I/P area is a further sign that it is totally dysfunctional. The seriousness of commitment can be generally judged by a simple glance at the edit history of each editor: who is actually constructing an article, and whose edit record consists mainly in raising objections to the addition of content, by revert and then by engaging in extenuating wikilawyering on the talk page. Since I have interests I in both areas I am never obstructed if I go and write up, say, to cite a recent example, Elio Toaff, I can triple the content in a day, undisturbed: if I touch the I/P area I am drawn into absurd melodramas over the simplest edits, which are contested, reverted or challenged at sight.

Regarding the specific complaint. Debresser in opening a thread to challenge my addition made an insinuation about my motives. I made the briefest of responses to this WP:AGF violation, and asked that one focus on policy, as did the other editor. Debresser’s comments here, here, here, here, and and here, are void of policy considerations. This is exactly the substance of the complaint made at the earlier arbitration case regarding him. He keeps talking past requests for policy justifications for his position, trusting in his opinions or suspicions. Having started the thread motivating his challenge by a personal insinuation against me, he ended it by protesting I had not observed WP:NPA, and jumped at an opportunity to report me.

When I asked him for the nth time to respond by policy his answer was I am applying good editing rules to this article

It is this that I referred to in the diff he adduces. In my judgment, his repeatedly ignoring requests to cite a policy ground for his objection, and, when asked to focus, simply replying ‘I am applying good editing rules to the article,’ sounds to be like an argument from self-esteem. To answer a request for a policy reason with the riposte:’I am a sound editor’ is to privilege a confidence in one’s own personal judgment over logic, policy and the reasoned objections another editor might raise. I.e. self-esteem gets the better of a neutral rule-based system of collaboration.Nishidani (talk) 12:23, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As to Debresser's link to the warning on my page by Lord Roem, I responded here, and I think my record since will show I have hewed closely to that advice.Nishidani (talk) 12:44, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Kingsindian. All reports are based on 'content disputes'. The difference is, is the dispute being handled by respect for the rules, i.e. policy, or not. If an editor, as Debresser in the Mahmoud Abbas case, and, I believe here, refuses to cite policy when repeatedly requested to do so, it is no longer a content dispute, but a behavioural issue. He had 3 months for that, which he leveraged back to a month. Fine, that was fair. I'm bewildered as to why he would try to get back at me on such trivial evidence for insisting he just begin, after 90,000 edits and a sanction, to adopt solid policy grounds to oppose edits. I should add that I do not want a sanction: I'd like to see Debresser simply warned strongly to take to heart the advice he was given when he was sanctioned. Nishidani (talk) 15:00, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Debresser by this and this, you are suggesting I am such a subtly devious editor I get away with pushing a blatant POV, and that my recourse to policy is just a ‘mask’.

I take care, among other things, to try and see to it that the Palestinian side of the conflict is fairly represented just as numerous editors (like yourself) edit the Israeli side of the conflict to ensure fairness. I don't see the latter as being 'blatant' because they represent a POV. That's their job and it is perfectly respectable. The only thing is that both perspectives must accept that there are 2 points of view to be described, not one. WP:NPOV is obtained by balancing POVs, not by erasing one of them as ‘blatant’. If you think our interaction is to be governed by a suspicion, as you declared recently that my contributions are to be read as ‘inspired by’ this ‘blatant’ POV, then anything I attempt to register is subject to challenge, not on policy grounds, but by reference to my putative bias. Were that principle adopted, no one would be allowed to edit the I/P area. All policy reasons can be dismissed as a ‘mask’, which, effectively, may throw light on why you ignore repeated calls to cite policy. If it’s a ‘mask’, policy for you becomes meaningless or a pretext: it need not be addressed because your diffidence about the editor’s supposed ulterior motives is enough for you to oppose this or that edit. That way of thinking creates obvious problems here.Nishidani (talk) 15:12, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The premise of the load of diffs AnotherNewAccount provides is that one should not discuss in detail proposed edits on the talk page. One of the deepest problems here is the profound unfamiliarity of many editors with the history of this area. Time and again, one is dragged into detailed explanations about the most trivial issues because many editors appear to not have familiarized themselves with the technical or scholarly literature. Indeed, offense is taken if one tries to set down facts or authoritative interpretations on a talk page, and they are airily dismissed as WP:SOAP. I thought collegiality meant consensus building through ample discussion. Nope. Shut up. If a group of editors assert that:'The Golan Hights is within Israel', one sets out the documentation. If they wikilawyer it, and are reminded that this view is that adopted, singularly, by the ruling Likud party and is authoritatively endorsed by the Likud Prime Minister, they feel insulted. My point was, by all means defend an 'Israeli official POV', but do not try to enter as a fact a specific party position with the complex constellation of Israeli politics. It is a running complaint since 2010 by members of either Likud or Yisrael Beiteinu, which is part of the present coalition, that Wikipedia maps of Israel do not show the Golan Heights, and that funding and courses are in place to get young students to register on Wikipedia and change the maps.

In any case, this is the 10th or 11th time I've been dragged into AE over 6 years, a venue I myself have used with great austerity, only once, against a sockmaster who represented an Israeli pro-settler NGO, and was permabanned. It seems to be a popular pastime. I don't know if the point is to wage a war of attrition to get me to retire in exhaustion, or swing a permaban. Speculation is pointless. Once more, all I can say is that if any diff above, checked in context, seems to suggest my behavior is problematical, then I'm quite willing to respond to any administrative challenge.Nishidani (talk) 12:03, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As to hasbara, it is not a put down term by Israel's enemies. It is what the Israeli Likud-lead government funds since 2013, providing scholarships to students willing to 'defend Israel' by writing on social media, such as Wikipedia.It is endorsed by Binjamin Netanyahu.Nishidani (talk) 12:57, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Kamel Tebaast. Could you please refrain from confusing what is developing into a complex complaint. Taking me to task for putatively 'intellectualizing' Ariel Sharon' (?) by my having mentioned the facts established concerning his career ((duly documented on the pages you link) is extremely obscure and serves no evidential basis. Thank you. Nishidani (talk) 13:15, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Debresser. I can't let you get away with your latest assertion you know policy. This is the record you allude to.

*(1) I am not disputing that Gilbert Achcar is a reliable source 13:04, 24 July 2016

*(2) How does a question, even a suggestive one, turn into a reliable source? 14:08, 24 July

I.e. In response to repeated requests by 2 editors to clarify what you meant by 'Reliable Source' you said Gilbert Achcar, one of the world's foremost authorities on the Arabs and the Holocaust, was reliable, but not if if his quote contains a question. Then you said he wasn't reliable. You then repeated that your objections are policy based, refusing again to speak policy.

There is no other descriptive word for the above than WP:STONEWALLING/WP:IDIDNOTHEARTHAT

Even blind Freddy and his dog, sniffing at the RS/N discussion, should be able to twig that Debresser's response is farcical. Such are the rewards for trying to get some useful information into an encyclopedia anyone can edit (stuff out of).Nishidani (talk) 21:00, 1 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion concerning Nishidani

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may] remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Kingsindian

Content dispute. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 14:50, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What does the mass of diffs in AnotherNewAccount have to do with the original request? Are people simply allowed to randomly throw mud against the wall hoping something will stick?

The discussion at Talk:Israel#Map_of_Israel is about borders of the map of Israel. One position, which was the original one, is to show Israel's boundaries under international law, namely the Green Line. The problem is that Israel does not consider these the legal boundaries and claims some territories outside these lines. Some random drive-by editor removed the map saying that the Golan Heights isn't included in the map, so it's invalid. This led to an interminable, and so far inconclusive discussion, though we seem to be close.

Nishidani's points, contrary to AnotherNewAccount's characterization, are about the content and take the position of international law. There is a contrary argument which some people make on the talkpage: whatever the status of international law, one should at least show territories over which Israel has "de-facto control". The details are very thorny; see the comment I made here.

Now, because of repeated edit-warring, some people, including me, have made several compromise proposals, which people can read on the talkpage. As far as I know, Nishidani agrees with my proposal.

This absurd diff dump by AnotherNewAccount, who has never participated on the talkpage, is silly. As I pointed out here, AnotherNewAccount considers what other people write to be "childish rubbish", and talk pages to be "lunatic asylums", so this is not surprising. I'm sure this approach is very civil and constructive. It's easy to snipe from afar with no consequences for doing so.

Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 11:29, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Nableezy

Jesus christ, somebody says youre drifting and thats a "personal attack" that requires coming to AE?

Statement by AnotherNewAccount

Debresser clearly filed this in frustration after several run-ins with Nishidani of late. I haven't been here the last few days, but up until then I was observing Nishidani's conduct on Talk:Israel, which included some extremely insulting putdowns of several editors including Debresser, despite being asked several times to stop. Also stonewalling, soapboxing, and tendentious nitpicking over precise details to justify the retention of a map that clearly failed to reflect the reality of complete Israeli control of the Golan Heights - which he refused to accept for ideological reasons.

[56] Pretty much his first comment in the discussion was a POV-push, apparently Israel's annexation of the Golan Heights was "snapping off territory gained in war" while Russia's annexation of Crimea was merely "resumption of its 2 centuries+ sovereignty".
[57] Bad faith characterization of other editors' reasonings.
[58] Implication of the invalidity of a forming consensus (that the article's map should show, in light green, the disputed area of the Golan Heights, which Israel has controlled and ruled unimpeded for almost fifty years) as he considered it formed by merely an "ad hoc majority of people strongly attached to Israel". (Incidently, his later attempt to get "neutral input" over on WikiProject Maps was slapped down when a genuinely neutral editor all-but sided with the "unfavorable" view.)
[59] First partisan reference to the idea that this disfavored view is "Likud" in nature. (Note: Likud is a right-wing Israeli political party, and the current ruling party in Israel.)
[60][61] General stonewalling.
[62] Accuses other editors of "Likudization via imaginative maps".
[63] Assuming good faith, I think Nishidani was being facetious here, but this was a tendentious suggestion that mischaracterized the other editor's intention
[64] First condecending putdown, against Bolter21. Nitpicking over the exact details of "annexation". General high-handed attitude.
[65] I hardly know know where to begin with this tendentious reply.

Spectacularly rude putdown against Sir Joseph, declaring his intention to ignore him because this reasonings are just "throwoffs from rote learning from bad textbooks" and "this is all meme replication from school textbooks or middlebrow newspapers."
Trite dismissal in "...everything you say is impressionistic", followed by one of his irrelevant anecdotes.
Bad faith mischaracterization of opponents' editing as "...a Likud venture...". The filer Debresser politely expressed his frustration with Nishidani constantly calling the opposing view "Likud".

[66] Reply to Debresser. More inappropriate Likud/Netanyahu references. Nishidani uses erudite-but-vague language here but I think he's essentially accusing other editors of parroting the Likud party line.
[67] "I guess the next move for the ethnonationalization here will be to map the West Bank as an integral part of Israel." - another bad faith mischaracterization of opposing editors' intentions.
[68] Insulting putdown against filer Debresser, and was immediately asked to stop.
[69] Soapbox. In particular, "You keep harping on the hasbara theme..." (the term "hasbara" is used as a term of distain to imply the opposing editor is promoting propaganda).
[70] Issues a rambling reply that Sir Joseph's points come "directly from the standard 'how to reply' talking points lists", followed by another of his wordy offtopic rambles.

Collating the above has taken much of the evening, so I can understand if Debresser didn't have the will to do it himself. Judging by the diff submitted above, Nishidani is continuing with the problematic talk page attitude towards Debresser after he was asked to stop. I think Debresser has boiled over, and justifiably so. AnotherNewAccount (talk) 21:30, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kamel Tebaast

Thank you, AnotherNewAccount, for teaching me a new policy: WP:SOAP. In case your fine examples weren't enough to move Nishidani into the semi-finals, here are a few more:

[71]: Nishidani's SOAP that led No More Mr Nice Guy to remove unwarranted material and ask Nishidani if he could "kindly cut out the SOAP?"; and TheTimesAreAChanging to refer to Nishidani's rant as "mostly pseudo-intellectual gobbledygook (complete with Nishidani's trademark comparison of Israel to Nazi Germany, which is obviously necessary".
[72]: Illustrating a typical Nishidani SOAP, in one edit, as to whether Yasser Arafat should be referred to as a terrorist, Nishidani managed to slide in an ad hominem attack on me, that I "lack detachment and wish to skewer the subject of the article"; discounted that he could use straw man tactics; intellectualized Ariel Sharon's stature (notwithstanding that he killed Arabs, was the architect of the 1982 Lebanon War, responsible for the Sabra and Shatila massacre); and culminated with a hypothesis that "We hsve [sic] a fair statement of Arafat's ambiguity in his lead, we have a one-sided hypothesis of Ariel Sharon in his lead."
[73] (If you need more, just go up above to AE Sean.holyland) Kamel Tebaast 05:24, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by ZScarpia

The curious thing about AnotherNewAccount's rather impressive-looking charge sheet is that you would have expected him to lead with the strongest part of his case, yet examination of the first diff actually tends to highlight as problematic the behaviour of Kamel Tebaast, who has commented above, rather than that of Nishidani. The comment Nishidani makes is innocuous and factual. Kamel Tebaast comes the closest to making a personal attack, which is what this incident is nominally about, with what could be called a honeyed insult. If anyone there is pushing a point-of-view it is also him.
Things crumble further with the second diff, where AnotherNewAccount's description misrepresents Nishidani's comment.
International law is very clear that the Golan Heights is Syrian, not Israeli, territory. The third diff shows a group of editors trying to claim that that clear legal position is only a point of view. Again, the effect of the diff is to highlight the behaviour of editors other than Nishidani as problematic.
And so on ...
← ZScarpia 23:49, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ijon Tichy

In general editors should refrain from analyzing the personality or character traits of fellow editors. It was not a good idea for Nishidani to make a remark regarding Debresser's self-esteem. That remark did not help the discussion. It would have been sufficient for Nishidani to request that Debresser provide a clear policy justification when Debresser makes a controversial or a contested edit (Debresser appeared to brush-off Nishidani's repeated requests that Debresser provide policy justifications for his edits). We assume good faith in each other and we trust that Debresser (or any editor) must have a good reason when he makes a controversial or a contested edit, but we are required, by WP policy, to verify that the edit is policy-compliant. Thus, it is incumbent upon Debresser, that when an editor asks him for a policy justification, that he not answer with something to the effect of 'trust me, I know what I'm doing.' (We are all required to trust, but we are also required to verify.) In the future, if Debresser can't provide that justification, then it is better that he refrain from making the controversial or contested edit until that time when he can provide it and discuss it on the article talk page.
Ijon Tichy (talk) 00:13, 1 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think the editors who provided diffs about Nishidani's behavior (Kamel Tebaast and AnotherNewAccount) have presented the diffs in good faith. However, it is impossible to fairly and objectively analyze the diffs without giving careful consideration to the full and unique context of each diff. Once the (typically complex, nuanced, specific, and unique) context is fully and carefully considered, it appears that in almost all cases Nishidani was entirely correct in saying or doing the things he said or did, and that in the remaining small number of cases he was as close to being correct as can be reasonably expected when editing in a highly controversial and contested topic area (the Israeli-Palestinian conflict) with many sub-topics that are very complicated, broad, deep, messy, and intricate. The I/P area is one of the most difficult and most challenging topic areas to edit in WP.

Another factor that exacerbates the already-considerable difficulty is the fact that the data over the last several years show that the I/P area tends to attract people who often don't bother to read the high-quality sources that Nishidani provides, or they read them too quickly and superficially, or they read them carefully but they don't understand the nuances or intricacies involved, or people who don't have a genuine interest in history in general. Or they don't understand - or refuse to understand - the discussions that Nishidani provides [which are necessarily long and detailed, because of the many complexities, layers, nuances and subtleties involved, and which Nishidani does a good job of summarizing, explaining and clarifying; Nishidani never resorts to WP:SOAP]. The data additionally show that the topic area also tends to attract numerous meatpuppets, sockpuppets, posters who make death threats, anonymous blankers and reverters, ranters flooding one's email with vicious slurs, people who are gaming the system, or people who are using the WP I-P conflict topic area as a battleground, or as a vehicle for propaganda. Nishidani's overall track record over the last several years, including the last several weeks, in this highly challenging and difficult topic area, has been excellent. Nishidani is not perfect and there are some minor areas where his behavior could be improved (as I have alluded to above), but his contributions are strictly based on source-based reasoning and on full adherence to NPOV and NOR, and he strongly insists that others likewise limit themselves to making only policy-compliant contributions; and he also does a great job, overall, in dealing with many difficult or disruptive editors.
Ijon Tichy (talk) 01:33, 1 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Nishidani

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Seriously? A single diff of being mildly standoffish is now a personal attack worthy of asking for a topic ban? If that's the worst behavior going on in the IP topic area, we should probably just tell Arbcom we don't need DS anymore. This has all the hallmarks of a vexatious filing. Debresser, if I'm mistaken please tell me why and why there should not be a WP:BOOMERANG here. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 14:00, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@AnotherNewAccount: See, THAT is a request with some meat in it. Its going to take some time for me to look into that evidence, so please bear with me for a day or two while I evaluate it. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 23:41, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[1] The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.

[2] This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

[a]

[b]

@@ Line 684: / Line 684: @@
 @AnotherNewAccount Nice collection. In my post I only wrote about his insults to me, not other editors, and even there you found another good example I had already forgotten about, since this way of denigrating talk has become expected from Nishidani. The only correction I would like to make to your post is minor, that I didn't "boil over", rather calmly reached the decision to post here in an attempt to finally stop Nishidani's POV pushing. I am glad to see my take on Nishidani's editing is shared by other editors. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 00:42, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
-@Ijon Tichy You are falling for Nishidani's trap too. I don't have to quote the policy page to quote policy! If I say something is not reliably sourced, do I have to provide a link to [[WP:RS]]? If I say something is not relevant, e.g., do you really need a link to a policy page, or is it evident that information should be relevant? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 18:13, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
+@Ijon Tichy You are falling in Nishidani's trap too. I don't have to quote the policy page to quote policy! If I say something is not reliably sourced, do I have to provide a link to [[WP:RS]]? If I say something is not relevant, e.g., do you really need a link to a policy page, or is it evident that information should be relevant? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 18:13, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
+@Nishidani 1. A suggestive question is not a reliable source, even if the person who asked it would be a reliable source if he made a clear statement. One of the two uninvolved editors who replied at WP:RS/N said so specifically. 2. With only two uninvolved editor replying at WP:RS/N and one of them saying "In short, it is not encyclopedic." and the other "The only question I see is if his comments *should* be included. Which would be an NPOV issue. Personally I favour inclusion but there might be a slight BLP issue", how did Nableezy, or anybody else for that matter, reach the conclusion that the WP:RS/N wasn't in in my favor? That is delusional! [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 21:32, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
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