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May 17

Appeals to the U. S. Supreme Court: availability/access of legal briefs to the public

When lawyers file appeals to the U. S. Supreme Court, are all of these filings (the briefs, petitions, etc.) a matter of public record? I imagine that they must be. If so, are these easily accessible online? If not online, where can the public see these? In particular, I am asking about this case: J. W. Ledford was a death row inmate in Georgia who was executed today (May 17, 2017). He filed an appeal with the U. S. Supreme Court, arguing that it is unconstitutional to execute anyone younger than age 21. (See: Georgia Killer Appeals Execution, Argues 20 Is Too Young to Be Sentenced to Death.) That is the paperwork that I am interested to see. Any thoughts on this matter? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 14:40, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Records of the Supreme Court are kept in the National Archives and Records Administration (AKA the National Archives). They are all publicly available, though not always easily available, depending on the effort you wish to put in. This is the main webpage for Supreme Court records. Records and briefs are also kept at the Law Library of Congress (not to be confused with the similarly named Library of Congress), see here for information. They seem to be available on physical media (paper and microfilm). --Jayron 32 14:46, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Also this page at the Supreme Court's own website seems useful. --Jayron 32 14:47, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Just to be clear, I want something online and free of charge. If possible. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 14:52, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Start at the Supreme Court's own website then (linked above), they link to some online sources for briefs, I don't know if they are free, but there does appear to be something online. Try that. --Jayron 32 14:57, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The National Archives contains historical records. There is a significant lag in how long it takes for current court records to show up in the archives. FindLaw provides free access to many court documents (though a quick look couldn't determine precisely how much is available). older ≠ wiser 15:06, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Are [1] and [2] possibly the documents you are seeking?

(Also, in case they aren't all you're looking for, if you can google who represented Ledford, you could email them and ask for the public court documents on the case. Or the State Attorney's office. They're not obliged to answer you, but they just might indulge you). Eliyohub (talk) 17:52, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, all. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:03, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Joseph A. Spadaro, Jayron32, Bkonrad, and Eliyohub: Coming to this thread late as I was online last week. There is no routine online access for applications to the Supreme Court or to certiorari petitions and oppositions (although this may change in the future, and as noted above, some parties may choose to publicize their filings). However, once a case is accepted ("cert. granted") for briefing and argument, all the merits briefs of the parties and any amici are available online, free-of-charge here. Copies of some cert. petitions and oppositions are available online on a paid basis from Lexis and Westlaw as described on the page linked by Jayron32, but there is a distinction there between "paid" pre-cert. cases (in which the papers are professionally printed and a copy is furnished online) and "in forma pauperis" cases (in which this is usually not done). (If an in forma pauperis case is granted, the petitioner's brief is printed at government expense, so the distinction no longer applies.) Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:01, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What stops Africa from redrawing the ignorant colonial borders that put rivals in the same country?

A lot of things probably but at least there wouldn't be as many civil wars and insurgents. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:40, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Because there is no single intelligent entity called "Africa" who can just do things. The place we call "Africa" instead has about 1.2 billion intelligent entities who each have different needs and wants and goals. Those 1.2 billion people don't act, or think, or behave as a single entity making a single decision. --Jayron 32 17:51, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Same thing that stops the Middle East or subcontinent from doing the same. Inertia, power dynamics, etc. Also, who says they want to? Some countries willingly absorb rivals via conquest, or you would be asking "What stops China from redrawing its borders that put rival Tibetans in the same country?" Or, they have an idealist view and want to make the cosmopolitan group work. --Golbez (talk) 17:56, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If the sum of net extra international war this caused would be less bad than the sum of net ex-civil fighting and rebelling was bad (taking into account that war crimes against say a million are worse than war that more closely followed the law of war between states against a million and worse war crimes are worse than lesser ones like using expanding bullets) then maybe it'd be better to allow the homogenousish countries squashing the smaller homogenousish countries. I don't know if this would be the case but a subset of these rivalries would surely be close to evenly matched. Maybe they'd just hate each other and mine the borders? Whereas they might genocide or oppress that same group in countries where they were a majority and didn't think the other countries would intervene (that's what a psychopath leader might do, not intervene for his tribe in another country cause the brethren minority act like a sacrificial buffer state speed bump against the enemy majority, intervening makes his own army weaker and refugees means more non-enemies to rule). Minority guerrillas would have less power to cause asymmetrical war if minorities were smaller. Maybe some would even think it's hopeless and stop fighting or just move to a country that likes their tribe better. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:59, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) The African Union has agreed on the "intangibility of African borders", through the 1964 Cairo Declaration on African Borders. Basically, the member countries agreed that the colonists made a mess of drawing borders n the continent, but have decided not to re-open them as this would create a veritable Pandora's box of problems. There have been a few exceptions though, such as the recognition of the independence of Eritrea and South Sudan. This document seems to have a lot of additional information [3]. --Xuxl (talk) 17:59, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If each ethnic, religious, and tribal group had a territory which was 100% their group, and none of their group was outside that territory, then you would have a natural border. However, in the real world, not only is each group spread out and overlapping with other groups, but the ethnic, religious, and tribal boundaries don't match each other. This means that any attempt to draw (or redraw) national boundaries will inevitably lead to many being excluded, or even evicted, from the nation they most identify with. One exception is natural boundaries, like for an island. Japan, for example, is more homogeneous than smaller regions, such as Israel/Palestine. However, you ultimately get to the conclusion that different ethnic, religious, and tribal groups need to learn to be tolerant of each other and live together, and that national boundaries are irrelevant, and perhaps even counter-productive, to that goal. StuRat (talk) 18:02, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Japan is homogeneous? Ask the Ainu people or the Ryukyuan people about that. --Jayron 32 19:29, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Ryukyuans are like the Dutch compared to the Germans, very closely related linguistically and geographically peripheral. The Ainu language is dead. μηδείς (talk) 05:46, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Homogeneity through intentional cultural erasing is hardly a model we should strive towards. --Jayron 32 13:59, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The prblem with groups like the Ainu and Eyak is that the peoples themselves give up on their language when it is no longer profitable. No one killed off the Gauls, the Picenes, the Etruscans, the Samnites. They just taught their children Latin. Navajo is the only indigenous language in the US that is growing in population. The Ainu were doomed in Japan as they lived on a large home island (they may still speak Ainu in the Islands Russia stole from Japan). Ryukyuan is slowly dying off due to economic pressure by the northern Japanese standard. There's no extermination program, just the same market forces that have existed for a myriad millenia. μηδείς (talk) 04:13, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"is more homogeneous than" != "is homogeneous". —Tamfang (talk) 19:13, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, and I'm sure Jayron knows this, but it won't dissuade him from continuing to set up straw man arguments he can use to attack others. Not sure why he enjoys this so, but it does seem to be one of his favorite hobbies. StuRat (talk) 01:38, 20 May 2017 (UTC) [reply]

Wise words. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:00, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In 1959, an ethnographer named George Murdock created a rather famous map of Africa, you can see versions of it here and here that rather captures the scope of the problem; and I would posit that HIS borders are probably too simplistic; there are likely groups whose homelands are interspersed within each other in rather intractable ways. Imagine every one of those as a sovereign state on its own, with full border controls, customs, governments of various levels of corruptibility, claims to lands in other such regions, and what that would do to the economy of such a place. There's a reason why globalization (with all of its problems) is the direction the world is working towards, it works more than it doesn't; there's movement towards more interconnectedness between ethinicities and states, less border controls, etc. The solution to these problems has never been put everyone in their own box and don't let them out... It's also worth noting that Europe hasn't exactly been immune to these arbitrary boundary divisions any more than Africa has. After all, European powers worked out their own boundaries without much regard for ethnic homogeneity either; after all every European country has their own ethnic minorities which have been marginalized by the dominant culture; you don't really think the borders of France, for example, have represented a uniform homeland of a single culture group, or that they ever have? Ask the Bretons or the Occitans or the Basque or the Alsatian Germans or the Nizzardo Italians or dozens of others who were not historically French. Europe didn't deal with these issues by giving every one of these groups their own isolated homeland with full sovereignty, and that probably wouldn't have been the best solution anyways. --Jayron 32 18:32, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Scottish National Party would disagree. Not that I'm a Scottish independentist. I don't know enough about the issue to decide whether to take side 1, side 2 or no side. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:07, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Scottish National Party would disagree with what? That the Bretons are not French? I doubt they have a political position on the matter, and what the fuck do we care about their opinion of ethnic groups in France. They're hardly all ethnographers. --Jayron 32 19:23, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Scottish National Party is in the European Free Alliance Europarty within the Greens/EFA EU parliamentary group. "[The EFA] consists of various regionalist political parties in Europe advocating either full political independence and sovereignty, or some form of devolution or self-governance for their country or region." While it only has a Breton autonomist full member (a second party of a group can only join with the first's consent), the European Free Alliance has the Aralar Party as a full member which is Basque independentist and is unlikely to consider themselves French. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:34, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Your nonsequiturs grow increasingly infuriating and make it difficult to help you. --Jayron 32 01:24, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wow. That is a lot of peoples. They can't all be enemies with their neighbor surely. Can't some form a contiguous country with other ethnic groups based on kinship, already being allies, strength in numbers, negotiation (you get 20% of our oil and we get an equal value of X etc), not disliking enough that they can't live together, preventing anarchy, the enemy of my enemy is my friend etc.? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:14, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No, that's not the point. War and conflict are primarily economic issues; access to resources and issues related thereof are the major sources of wars and conflicts; you don't go to war with someone because they speak a different language or like pineapple on their pizza or other such bullshit; you go to war because they have something you want or need, and they won't give it to you (for whatever reason) so you decide to take it by force. Now, the government of your country may tell you that you're going to war to stick it to those pineapple-on-pizza eating asshats (fuck them!) but that's because most people aren't really all that excited about going to war so that some rich people can get access to a zinc mine or some nice bit of farmland or some such. They need some reason to convince the poor people to go die so they can make more money. "They're different than you are" is that reason. Two neighboring people groups tend to live in peace so long as both groups have economic security (or, at least until their corrupt leaders decide they need a bigger yacht). --Jayron 32 19:23, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well... not every war is economic... people do fight over religion. So, if one group has a holy book that says: "The Great God abhorreth the mixing of pineapple and cheese", and another group has a holy book that says: "And on the third day the Lord said 'Let there be pineapple pizza', and it was good"... the two groups might well go to war over it. Blueboar (talk) 23:49, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

To be fair, religious differences are oftentimes an excuse to exploit resources. For instance, the fact that Saudi Arabia, deeply intolerant of Shia Islam, insists on holding onto the largely Shia Eastern Province, is probably not unrelated to the fact that this is where most of the oil is. Similar deal with the Second Sudanese Civil War. Even when the warring powers are motivated by non-economic reasons, it is typically the presence of valuable resources that brings weapons and foreign powers into the conflict, leading to escalation. Causes of any war are usually murky. But this really gets right back to the border drawing issue. Sudan spent 60 years fighting to keep the ignorant colonial borders, because the government didn't want to lose half of its most profitable industry. And to harp even more on Jayron's point, SMW, you're basically asking, "why can't we all just get along?" In many cases, the alternative is simply too profitable. If cooperation means no longer plundering wealth from the land of people you don't like anyway, and the government is helpfully painting those people as subhuman terrorists, yeah, don't expect that to change peacefully. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:23, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You have to look at leaders of those wars. They stand to gain wealth and power through victory. No matter what the "official" cause of a war is, it's always ultimately about money and other material things. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:28, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Lone wolf suicide bombers are a perfect example of that, what with the fancy cars, homes and bling they enjoy when their mission is accomplished. The argument that everything is economic is rather naive Marxist claptrap. μηδείς (talk) 03:00, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't always religious. At our article The True Believer, by Eric Hoffer, I find for instance "Hoffer argued that fanatical and extremist cultural movements, whether religious or political, arose under predictable circumstances: when large numbers of people come to believe that their individual lives are worthless and ruined, that the modern world is irreparably corrupt, and that hope lies only in joining a larger group that demands radical changes." That "lone wolf suicide bomber" to which you refer may not be unambiguously religious. Bus stop (talk) 03:19, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, of course this occurred to me; for example, there was the once very popular and largely atheist anarchist movement, the unabomber and so forth. But one counterexample is enough, so I didn't find it necessary to go beyond a contemporary one. μηδείς (talk) 03:55, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt if any border anywhere represents a perfect solution to the inhabitants' desire for sovereignty. I think the borders that exist in any part of the world represent the most feasible ones available given the many other worse possibilities. Bus stop (talk) 00:56, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Desire for sovereignty outside of the country one lives in comes from the fact that one is not provided with sovereignty within the country one lives in. --Jayron 32 01:23, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The real answer to the unasked question here is, there is no indigenous culture of respect for Western-type liberal values in most of the continent. Some lands like Egypt and South Africa have or have had approximations of it, with the current tolerance of former European oppressors in South Africa and the until recent tolerance of the Copts in Egypt, restored now by de facto military dictatorship.

But if we ignore that, assume that all peoples will live in peace, then there are ways to split up Africa into reasonable units. First, a knowledge of French, English or Arabic will get you by in almost the entire continent. Second, Murdock's map is an excellent resource, but it is one that intentionally splits up all groups, even when closely related. Read Languages of Africa and there are really only half a dozen major language families, although some are quite diverse. These include Afroasiatic, Nilo-Saharan, Niger-Congo, Khoi-San, Indonesian, and Indo-European.

Those groups are too diverse (many doubt the reality of Khoi-San) to serve as the basis of nation states. But their subgroupings might. For example, the Niger-Congo languages include the large Bantu language family, and many other families of the "slave coast" The Bantu area can be split up into 16 areas (see map). A "Bantu Confederation" might be ethnico-culturally homogenous enough to make up a federal state, even though there are something like hundreds of dialects, and few standards (like isiZulu and Swahili) with more than a million speakers. looking at the maps of the African language families and the Bantu family, one can see the basis for states. In places where Arabic is the dominant language, there might be no need to split up existing nations into smaller ones--just use the smaller ethnicities to define provinces within the larger state.

But this is all fantasy. Europe as it is now is the result of centuries of genocide and the oppression of minorities. Who of us is to direct such a project? μηδείς (talk) 05:13, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

off topic

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

"no indigenous culture of respect for Western-type liberal values in most of the continent..." is dangerously close to "Africans are not capable of being good humans" which is disgustingly racist and has no basis in reality. I stopped reading after I got to that particular bit of bigotry. I suspect the rest of your post was similarly stupid, but to keep me from going into a rage I stopped reading after that. --Jayron 32 12:02, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You are viewing Medeis' culturally relativistic views in the first paragraph through your own absolutist lens, via the apparent reasoning that "not subscribing to Western liberal values = not capable of being good humans", to arrive at a "disgustingly racist" inference. I do not believe that anyone else can tell you whether it is "right" that you believe what you believe in such an absolutist way, but if you recognise that it was your inference, perhaps that would help you to avoid unncessarily lashing out at others in similar situations in future. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 16:04, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The implication that Africans are incapable of peace because they are Africans is absolutely bullshit no matter how you carefully phrase your words. If am absolutely intolerant of bigotry in any form it expresses itself, I am not ashamed of it and will not back down, and allow people to be bigoted because we're talking about a different culture, relatively speaking. If Medeis meant something other than "Africans are incapable of <whatever> because they are Africans" she can speak for herself, she doesn't need you come to her defense. --Jayron 32 16:13, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I had the same word in mind, relativism. Jayron, you do not know peasantry having them surrounding your dwelling. --Askedonty (talk) 16:19, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not only is this ridiculous: "The real answer to the unasked question here is, there is no indigenous culture of respect for Western-type liberal values in most of the continent" but just as ridiculous is: "What stops Africa from redrawing the ignorant colonial borders that put rivals in the same country?" So, in summation, we have a stupid question and a stupid response. Nothing surprising about that. Bus stop (talk) 16:33, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if it was "respect for Western-type liberal values" that led to Germany invading Poland, or Russia invading Ukraine? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:50, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Jayron32:, I said Western-type liberal values--not white liberal values. There is nothing racist about this, and I have neither said that Africans are incapable of adopting them nor that only or all whites hold/held to liberalism. Look at the difference between North and South Korea, or at Japan, the latter two of which have adopted the Western style of individual rights and limited government and are highly successful non-White cultures while North Korea isn't. Race obviously has nothing to do with it. I also ended my thread with the statement But this is all fantasy. Europe as it is now is the result of centuries of genocide and the oppression of minorities. Who of us is to direct such a project?. But you didn't get that far, given your mind shut down at the word Western. μηδείς (talk) 17:25, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"Western-type" or "Western" is a dogwhistling for "white people", and you knew that. As I said, the rest of your writing could have been brilliant, but when you open with the notion that Africans are incapable of adopting liberal democracy, it poisons the well for the rest of the writing. Instead, don't make sweeping statements about the capabilities of entire continents of people, as that tends to set up the rest of your thesis in a negative way. --Jayron 32 17:50, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have lived over half my life in the Bronx and Harlem, and had black lovers for over half my lifetime. I won a Fulbright scholarship to study Zulu in South Africa. I end my contribution speaking openly of European genocide. Yet you go ballistic when you hear the word "Western" and admit you useed it as an excuse to ignore what you concede was a brilliant contribution. Now you fall back on "dogwhistles" that you hear, but you don't see me avoiding the words oppression and genocide in relation to European history. Accusations of intolenat bigotry by someone who hadn't read what I wrote followed by assertions that you can hear things I have not said is unbecoming, and, frankly, a personal attack. Since personal accusations are not references, I am going to collapse this subsection as off-topic. μηδείς (talk) 20:22, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder what would have happened if Mountbatten, rather than drawing a top-down line across India, had arranged a series of plebiscites – "With which of your neighbors, if any, are you willing to amalgamate?" – starting with villages and working up to the biggest units that got majority approval (perhaps requiring a higher threshold at each successive stage). Such a process, if successful, could invite imitation in Africa. —Tamfang (talk) 19:27, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The problem was the number of enclaves this would have created, and the intractable sectarian violence when there was not a strong central government to stop it. Look at the result in the Balkan Wars, when Bosnia-Herzegovina, which had been peaceful under autorcratic rule, fell subject to internecine warfare literally based on shibboleths and then-uncorked religious conflict between Catholics, Orthodox, and Muslims. (This is a good example of the supposition above that hatreds at the individual level are stoked to increase the power of warlords in the upper echelons.) μηδείς (talk) 20:42, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I meant to recommend the movie Gandhi and its depiction of the Partition of India, which killed many thousands. μηδείς (talk) 01:05, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

...estimates of loss of life accompanying or preceding the partition disputed and varying between several hundred thousand and two million. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:12, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Another thought: Even if European colonizers hadn't drawn artificial national boundaries in Africa, it still would have happened anyway. Take the case of Shaka Zulu, who brutally conquered and annexed the territories of neighboring tribes. In time, that would have happened throughout Africa. StuRat (talk) 01:13, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This book [4]^{[unreliable source?]} chronicles the issues which arise and how they are handled. 86.134.217.72 (talk) 18:43, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Reading suggestions on American Civil Rights movement and Indian Independence movement?

Hi Wikipedians,

I realise this is probably not what the Reference Desk is for, but on the whole I have found you guys the most helpful people on the internet when it comes to open, slightly qualitative questions which are not the easiest thing to Google for, so I hope you will indulge me.

For a writing project, there are a couple of pieces of 20th century history I want to immerse myself in, with particular reference to the internal political dynamics of these movements. I was wondering if you would be able to recommend the definitive (or at least a selection of the most definitive) works. I'm not afraid of - in fact, I would welcome - the academic and dry, but if there's an excellent popular history that would work too. The two things are the African-American Civil Rights Movement (I'm British, so please don't tell me to check my privilege and accuse me of ignorance for not knowing all this already) and the Indian independence movement (I'm British, so please feel free to tell me to check my privilege and accuse me of ignorance for not knowing all this already). :p

I've read through the excellent Wikipedia articles already, but I'm eager to get much deeper into the detail, as I say with particular reference to the internal dynamics. Would you guys have any recommendations? Dan Hartas (talk) 20:55, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A good place to start is the reference/further reading/bibliography sections of the above linked articles (if applicable). Btw, did you mean "Indian independence movement" (re: the country of India) or "Native American self-determination". ;) — 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:0:0:0:1 (talk) 21:10, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The former. I picked these two because they're the most notable cases of a non-violent movement prevailing over a militant tendency and the movement ultimately becoming successful through that means. I have had a look through the bibliographies but it's difficult to get a sense of a book's main thesis, it's prestige and it's particular focus that way, in general I find recommendations the best place to start! Dan Hartas (talk) 21:32, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A method to immerse oneself in the dynamics of a movement is to seek the writings of and about a key person of the movement. For the African-American Civil Rights Movement (1954–1968) that person is Martin Luther King Jr. and his sermons and speeches. For the Indian independence movement that person is Mahatma Gandhi whose collected works are currently a Wikiproject. Blooteuth (talk) 22:00, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's also worth noting that King took a lot of inspiration from Gandhi and his methods, so there's a direct connection there. this provides a lot of good information on the connections there. King even took a 5 week tour of India in 1959. --Jayron 32 01:19, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I can't recommend anything about modern movements, but I would look into the fact that much of the problem with Federa;/tribal relations had to do with treaties imposed on Indians either by good faith or force (removal to Indian Territory (Oklahoma]) and in the Northwest where the treaties were abrogated by the Feds when it was discovered that monied interests could use the land the Indians had agreed to limit themselves to. See also the Trail of Tears, where civilized farmers were removed from their lands based on race. Understanding the 19th century history of injustices will give a firmer basis for understanding the nature of 20th century claims and movements. μηδείς (talk) 23:31, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong Indians, as the OP had already made clear by his link. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.60.183 (talk) 23:56, 17 May 2017 (UTC) [reply]

Stupid me, I assumed American in the title implied American Indian. Still some good advice tho. μηδείς (talk) 00:19, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Our article on Paul Robeson has lots of references to works relevant to the US Civil Rights movement, especially in the early and precursor stages. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:29, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Wikipedia is not a good source for the Civil Rights Movement. The best source on the internet would be the Civil Rights Movement Veterans website. Makes sure you review the Freedom Movement History & Timeline 1951-1968 and the How to Use This Website for Students, Teachers & Others pages. The site is hosted by Tougaloo College and maintained by Bruce Hartford, a veteran of the Civil Rights Movement in the southern United States. Mitchumch (talk) 15:11, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

May 18

publicly owned pets

Are there recorded examples of quadrupeds who hung out in towns but did not belong to any specific person? I feel like there’s been a film or show about one of those, but I have no idea what it was (if anything). — (((Romanophile))) ♞ (contributions) 07:39, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Military mascot might meet some of your criteria. Phil Holmes (talk) 07:44, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Romanophile -- Semi-feral cats, who at least partially rely on human food handouts, but are not part of a human household, are quite common in some areas. The cats of Rome have been described and depicted a number of times (what Wikipedia has on this is apparently in the Largo di Torre Argentina article), while recently there was the movie Kedi (2016 film) about cats in Istanbul... AnonMoos (talk) 08:51, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ducks that live on and around public ponds are common throughout at least the developed world, the municipal parks authorities usually bear some responsibility to maintain their habitats but do not actually own them. Various sacred animals associated with certain deities in India may be fed/maintained by temples. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 09:12, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The sacred geese in the temple of Juno, who are supposed to have saved Rome from a Gaulish attack. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wymspen (talk • contribs) 09:40, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ducks and geese may have four limbs, but are bipeds. See Quadrupedalism. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 09:42, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Street dog, urban fox, rats and mice, grey squirrels. All these may occasionally be treated as pets. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:25, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There used to be the Canadian Parliamentary Cats. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:06, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And Larry the 10 Downing Street cat, the Chief Mouser to the Cabinet Office. Alansplodge (talk) 11:31, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Kenton, Tennessee has a large population of white squirrels, who are featured in an annual festival and protected from harm by local law enforcement. Original research warning: I have been there and seen them. A restaurant owner said that when non-white squirrels are seen in town they are "encouraged to leave." If I recall correctly, they did not have pink eyes as one might expect in albinos, so they may just simply be white furred animals. The would seem to qualify as municipal animals.Edison (talk) 13:08, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Encouraged" to be put into a big pot of burgoo given my understanding of the culinary history of the area... --Jayron 32 13:44, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I seem to recall an old British film (1940's maybe ?) where a dog was ordered to be destroyed as a stray, but a barrister (lawyer) argued that the dog was in fact public property, and therefore not a stray, and not subject to the law. This dog would "do his rounds" where he visited various residents and locations. StuRat (talk) 01:30, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You may be thinking of Greyfriars Bobby (1961), a Disney production but set in Scotland: "Bobby's fate rests with the Lord Provost of Edinburgh (Andrew Cruickshank) and, without a license and someone to take responsibility for Bobby, he may be destroyed. The children of Edinburgh contribute their pennies for Bobby's license. Bobby is declared a Freeman of the City and adopted by the populace of Edinburgh". The film is loosely based on an actual 19th century dog, Greyfriars Bobby. Alansplodge (talk) 16:39, 20 May 2017 (UTC) Alansplodge (talk) 16:37, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, that's the one. StuRat (talk) 23:59, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Why is there no large city at the mouth of the Susquehanna or Connecticut River?

Philly and Wilmington are at the mouth of the Delaware (or close enough), New York's at the mouth of the Hudson, Boston's at the mouth of the Charles, DC has both tidal Potomac and the head of navigation (but inner DC was on soggy ground so I can see why there was nothing there in 1787), Hampton Roads has the mouth of the James.. I guess Cairo, Illinois at the mouth of the Ohio isn't big because it needs a 64 foot tall flood wall. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:24, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Pure speculation here: the Susquehanna is fairly shallow at its mouth and therefore probably never played an important role in shipping. With little industry depending on the river for transportation, no city grew to support it. -- Ed (Edgar181) 14:32, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not speculation at all: The text of the article Connecticut River states in clear English why there is no large port there. I will not insult SMW by quoting the text he could read himself in the article he cited. The Susquehanna does have a small but significant city at its mouth, Havre de Grace, Maryland; it was a significant enough port that it was seriously floated as a Capital for the United States. Its proximity to Baltimore; which has a better natural harbor, probably prevented Havre de Grace's development into a larger city. Many major early American cities were sited and grew up around large, well-protected harbors rather than the size of the river they were sited near; compare New York (Upper New York Bay), Boston (Boston Harbor), etc. Boston is particularly a good parallel for Baltimore; just as Baltimore's harbor is more important than the Susquehanna in terms of siting a city, Boston is not sited at the mouth of the the Merrimack River, which is a very important river in New England, but which also has no major settlement at its mouth. Mouths of rivers are only useful where they also include a well-protected harbor; not merely for being rivers. --Jayron 32 15:09, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Site is different from cite. Bus stop (talk) 16:06, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So corrected. --Jayron 32 16:08, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

lol Bus stop (talk) 16:10, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If someone posts a link which they have not actually read, they could be said to have "sighted" it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:45, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

lol Bus stop (talk) 16:49, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Out of cite, out of mined. —Tamfang (talk) 19:30, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Philadelphia is nowhere near the mouth of the Delaware, although it is at the mouth of the Schuylkill River. Baltimore and Philadelphia are suitable inland ports with access to the upper Delaware and Susquehanna. Plenty of people not native to the are actually think Philadelphia is on the coast, while in fact it is an hour's drive inland from Atlantic City at the South Jersey shore. μηδείς (talk) 21:14, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Philadelphia lowest elevation: sea level. Just like Baltimore. I really don't know where the mouth of the Delaware is, it just sort of fades into its bay without getting much wider in a short or shortish distance like the Hudson or Charles. Delaware Bay seems to suggest it's Wilmington. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:27, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Delaware river is tidal up to Trenton, NJ, so if we want to talk about where the river ends, it's still nowhere near Philadelphia. You are trying to force words onto things. Words are human tools, not Platonic Ideals. μηδείς (talk) 01:09, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Zoomed in, Google Maps apparently keeps saying Delaware River till the Mad Horse Creek Wildlife Management Area which is way downstream of Wilmington. So Wilmington is wrong too? There's also different kinds of tidal infiltration. Saltwater can infiltrate on the river bottom when the surface never drops close to high tide. Then there's where the surface is the height of high tide but it's still like 2+ feet above sea level. 0 feet would be less riverine than that and reaching the low tide level of the area at low tide would be less riverine than that. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 01:53, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Here:

The Delaware River Basin Commission (DRBC) uses a stream location and identification system based on river mileage. The stream mileage system was published by DRBC staff in 1969 with revisions in 1988. The mileage system for the Delaware River and Bay consists of a "mile zero" and a line along which distances from mile zero are measured (the "mileage line").

What is "Mile Zero?"

Mile zero is located at the mouth of the Delaware Bay (i.e., where the bay meets the Atlantic Ocean) at the intersection of a line between the Cape May Light (New Jersey) and the tip of Cape Henlopen (Delaware) with the centerline of the navigation channel. The position of this point is Latititude 38° 50' 32" N and Longitude 75° 03' 18" W.

This makes sense as there is not a clear dividing line between the river and the bay, the river gradually widens into the bay and there is not any meaningful way to differentiate the end of the "river" as there is no delta or similar structure as there is with some other rivers. As Medeis notes, the estuary system (where the river has tidal influences) begins way further north than what is typically called Delaware Bay, at Trenton. From Trenton southwards, there's no meaningful line to draw to say "the River ends here and the Bay starts here" except in a purely arbitrary way; there's no particularly geographic reason to choose one spot or another, the DRBC's definition above is as good as anyone's, Google's is fine too, as is "Wilmington-ish" or the southern limit of the Twelve Mile Circle or any of a number of other places. As Medeis notes, also, it's not that important; understanding how the entire hydrologic system works is probably more interesting than picking some arbitrary point where the river becomes the bay. --Jayron 32 02:43, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Jayron, you might want to read the 2nd, 3rd and last quotes in the header of my talk page. μηδείς (talk) 03:46, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Salinity, and surface freezing are also relevant. The water at Philly is normally fresh but sometimes brackish, and normally unfrozen even on the coldest day of the year, but it sometimes freezes for weeks. μηδείς (talk) 04:18, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You mention DC. There was a little city at the head of navigation of the Potomac river: Georgetown. Ships could reach it from the sea but could not go further upstream because of the rapids. -Arch dude (talk) 04:26, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Those rapids being the Great Falls (Potomac River). The limit of navigability for many rivers on the East coast of the U.S. lies downstream of the Atlantic Seaboard fall line. --Jayron 32 14:40, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, the limit of navigation is at Little Falls, which is where Georgetown is. Great Falls is well upstream from there. -Arch dude (talk) 00:05, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Saying a prayer before a meal by Christians and Muslims

I observe that Christians only pray before a meal in groups but never individually, but Muslims do so individually in public. By the way, I think I can distinguish Christians from Muslims. Muslims wear a headscarf and/or pray in Arabic. Christians have no headscarf and pray in English. Why do Christians never pray individually, when eating alone? 140.254.70.33 (talk) 18:40, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

How do you know they don't? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:45, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

From my observations in the movies, Christians gather and hold a prayer. In real life, I see Muslims praying solo. 140.254.70.33 (talk) 18:54, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Movies are generally fictional. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:56, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Among the many misconceptions of your post, I present: Christian headcovering. Minimal research will also find Muslims without hijabs, Christians praying in Arabic, Muslims praying in English, Christians praying individually, and, I strongly suspect, Muslims praying collectively. — Lomn 18:55, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'd note the specific wording was head scarves and a substantial proportion of of Muslims don't wear headscarves as these generally refer to specific types of coverings only generally worn by women except sometimes for practical reasons (in which case the religion is probably moot). Even if you call the Keffiyeh a head scarf, many Muslim men do not wear that, as it's even more of a cultural thing than the headscarf. This isn't to say all Muslim women wear headscarves, as some don't wear any head coverings and others wear things like the Niqāb not generally considered a headscarf. Nil Einne (talk) 11:04, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You do know that the world population is about 7 billion people, right? And that you've probably only observed a few thousand of them at most, right? So, your experience and your observations only account for something like 0.01 % of all people in the world? So why would you decide to base your understanding only upon your observation when your observation is such a meaningless portion of humanity? You could instead read about these religious groups and learn about all of the different kinds of people you've never had the opportunity to meet. There's a billion muslims and a billion Christians in the world, and their diversity of religious practice is bewildering (there are probably several hundred to several thousand different sects of EACH, and there's a wide variance in practices between each sect!) Wikipedia has articles titled Christianity and Islam that are probably a good start; your local university or college may offer courses in Comparative religion which would expose you to the diversity of faiths and practices... In short, don't trust your personal observation of human behavior as anything resembling universal; humans are far too vast and diverse for any one person's individual interactions to create any larger picture. --Jayron 32 19:02, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think you mean 0.0001%. --76.71.6.254 (talk) 04:08, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Even moreso. --Jayron 32 11:13, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

- And the OP is talking about observance of actors playing Christians in movies, where a group prayer would be part of the plot and the dialogue - as with the family's weekly Sunday dinner gatherings on Blue Bloods. Someone praying alone in a movie would inherently tend to lack dialogue (unless God talks back). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:08, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

See also Grace (prayer).--Shantavira|^{feed me} 06:57, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is also appropriate for this question to note that in the Simpsons the Rigel 7 Children's Choir sings before a communal meal 'Tasty creature, we salute you. ((Slurp) For your juicy sacrifice. (Slurp)' Might I suggest yet again a quick check with Google when one has a query before posing them here. Dmcq (talk) 12:41, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I just had a look in Wikipedia and unfortunately the articles on comparing religions are mostly with a Christian bias. A big difference between Christians and Muslims in general is that Christianity is more oriented towards saving the individual - it is more of a personal religion, whereas Islam is more oriented towards working within a society. Rituals are much more important to Muslims even if they are alone and their thoughts and deeds otherwise are not so important in general, in this way they tend to be much closer to Jews than Christians. Dmcq (talk) 13:29, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

May 19

Peel & Co

Are two sets of Peels connected? The politicians who descended from Sir Robert Peel, 1st Baronet (including his son the prime minister) started their fortune with cotton mills. The family associated with Peel & Co., founded in Alexandria just before Victoria's accession in 1837, made their money exporting cotton (and wheat). The Peel Society offers an essay from 1852 showing more Peels than I can count. Were the cotton exporters and the cotton manufacturers related? Carbon Caryatid (talk) 01:18, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The article on Edward Peel (big-game fisherman) says he was a member of the Peel family - see Earl Peel. Wymspen (talk) 11:13, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I've been working on the article that we both linked to. That unsourced statement re the relationship is what I am seeking to verify, or enlarge upon. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 20:59, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A stub "Sir Edward Peel" was speedy deleted[5] when it looked like this and, after it was restored at DRV, I improved the article retaining the original content "Peel was the son of William Felton Peel, of the wealthy aristocratic Peel family" (which I had a hunch was true but could not reference). I now see the information about his father is at odds with this maybe reliable source and have discovered from a "blog" that "Sir Robert Peel (1750-1830) ... his brother’s great-grandson, William Felton Peel (1839-1907), lived at Comberford Hall until 1902".[6] But, and I suspect this is no coincidence, Edward Peel's executors included John Willoughby Peel and Denys Felton Peel.[7] I'm not sure how this fits together (or doesn't). Contact me on my talk page if you think I can help more. Thincat (talk) 19:26, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've now found this but I'm too far into genealogy for my Wikipedian comfort. Thincat (talk) 20:12, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

NEXUS_(frequent_traveler_program)

NEXUS_(frequent_traveler_program):

   NEXUS members entering Canada may use a NEXUS machine to make customs declarations, as long as the member's irises are on file with the CBSA.

   NEXUS members entering the United States, either at preclearance facilities or by landing in the US, can use the Global Entry kiosks, as long as the member's fingerprints are on file.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scala Cats (talk • contribs) 04:43, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Does the iris scans only apply when entering Canada? Are there no iris scans when entering the US for NEXUS members or am I reading it wrong? I always thought that the US immigration checks were much stricter than the Canadian ones. Scala Cats (talk) 04:14, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

what do the numbers mean?

Hi, on this page, I find Steven Pinker is a "42.77". So what is a 42.77? I can tell it's, the higher the better, but apart from that, I can't find anything, and I can't find any site help there. IBE (talk) 18:57, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you've already seen this, but the website has some fairly limited information. 92.29.152.96 (talk) 19:08, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As you'd imagine, some academics have asked the same question.[8] -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 19:14, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hovering over the number in OP's link shows it to be his "RG Score". The last paragraph of ResearchGate#Features states that this is a "citation impact measurement" that "is not a citation impact measure", but correlates with citation impact measures, and that the exact method of calculating it is unknown.--Wikimedes (talk) 19:35, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Fyi, Wikipedia has an article on that: Citation impact. — 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:0:0:0:1 (talk) 19:40, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Is Gibraltar a country?

Does Gibraltar count as a country? Or Is Gibraltar in a country, like Illinois is in the US?--94.143.77.231 (talk) 21:32, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Gibraltar is an British Overseas Territory. It isn't considered part of the United Kingdom or are part of the European Union. While it governs most of its internal affairs, things like defense and foreign relations are handled by the British government. uhhlive (talk) 21:36, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't that be a British Overchannel Territory (plus some driving through France and Spain) ? Or, now that they have the Chunnel, perhaps a British Underchannel Territory. :-) StuRat (talk) 00:54, 20 May 2017 (UTC) [reply]

Correction - Gibraltar is currently within the European Union, as is the UK. Perhaps not for much longer though. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:02, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps? I'd say it's highly probable. Brexit is for real. --Hofhof (talk) 22:04, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The word "country" has many different meanings. Many people equate "country" with "sovereign state", but the two are not always synonymous - for example, Scotland is a country but not a sovereign state. Gibraltar is not a sovereign state. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:42, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

hmmm... Scotland was a sovereign state... Gibraltar never has been. Blueboar (talk) 21:57, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Illinois was invented in 1818 and thus was never a country. Illinois Territory had even less power than a state. Vermont has been a country though. Mostly. Texas too. And California, New York, Georgia, two Carolinas, Maryland, Massachusetts, Hawaii, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Delaware, Pennsylvania, Virginia and Jersey (New, not regular (Jersey Jersey, the Jersey near France that's not Jersey Shore or Jersey Boys)) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:20, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And how is all that relevant to the status of Gibraltar? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.60.183 (talk) 00:09, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) A better analogy might be the United States Virgin Islands which is a US unincorporated territory. Alansplodge (talk) 00:12, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

To be fair, the OP did ask if Gibraltar was "like Illinois is in the US?". The answer is no. Gibraltar has no representation in the UK Parliament except for the Minister of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs who has responsibility for three of the Overseas Territories. Alansplodge (talk) 00:19, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Most do not consider the original 13 colonies to have ever been independent countries. Rmhermen (talk) 00:44, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

On the contrary, they were recognized as 13 independent countries ("sovereign and independent states") in the Treaty of Paris, which ended the American Revolutionary War. As a practical matter they didn't become a single country until the new U.S. Constitution provided for a powerful federal government starting in 1789. --69.159.60.50 (talk) 06:32, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

They [the Thirteen Colonies] weren't represented in the UK Parliament either. The Gibraltarians seem rather happier with that arrangement. Alansplodge (talk) 00:50, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Does British TV news ever say Breenter or Bremoan?

Or are those too informal? Bremain was said on the news right? Does the man on the Clapham Omnibus use these? Are there other Brewords? Like Brenter (referring to the original entering in the 20th century), Brestroy, Brein and out, Brevolving door..? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:37, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No, never heard of any of them. Alansplodge (talk) 00:05, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've only seen Bremain and Bremoan. The rest I made up. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 01:25, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nor have I. Brexit has an entry in the OED, but the others are more jokes than words (by OED standards). Dbfirs 00:32, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Bremain does have a few Google results for British newspapers [9] but I can assure you that it was not a word in common use. However, I have heard of Nexit. Alansplodge (talk) 00:44, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't "nexit" what happened when Netflix doubled their rates and sent their customers a letter saying they were doing this to improve customer satisfaction? μηδείς (talk) 17:12, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No. Alansplodge (talk) 18:02, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

New York Times and Comey memo

How did the New York Times obtain the Comey memo? Did they obtain a written copy or did someone read it out loud to a reporter over the phone?Uncle dan is home (talk) 23:58, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I believe I heard it described on one US TV news clip as being from "a source very close to Comey". In the British media and political milieux this phrasing is a stock formula which everyone understands really means "directly from Comey himself on the strict condition of non-attribution." Does the same convention hold in the US? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.60.183 (talk) 00:18, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Times itself reports on the 16th: Mr. Comey shared the existence of the memo with senior F.B.I. officials and close associates. The New York Times has not viewed a copy of the memo, which is unclassified, but one of Mr. Comey’s associates read parts of it to a Times reporter. Hence the Times has positively claimed that it has not seen the memo (which many take to mean it was read over the phone) does not know its full contents, and that Comey himself was not the leaker. Of course we have only the Times own word for this. μηδείς (talk) 00:53, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In other words... the Times reported on unsubstantiated claims. Oh Well... at least they were honest about it not being substantiated. Blueboar (talk) 01:04, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Slovak World War play

Does anyone know the name of this Slovak World War play? I saw it in the Slovak National Theatre but as I don't speak Slovak, I don't remember much of how it ended (post-intermission), however the first half was about some social-conflict in their village/community after someone dies. If it may help, I believe I saw it on 19 September 2016. I REMEMBER reading the story on WP that evening.Lihaas (talk) 23:58, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Could it have been one of the several dramatic adaptations of the novel The Good Soldier Švejk? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.60.183 (talk) 00:21, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Cambridge Guide to Theatre (p. 276) suggests Midnight Mass (1959) and Antigone and the others (1962), both plays by Peter Karvaš about the Second World War. Alansplodge (talk) 00:28, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Eugen Suchoň: Krútňava (Whirlpool) played on 17 Sept and 24 Sept. [10] The plot could fit. Rmhermen (talk) 00:41, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ah yes, whirlpool. Thanks.

Gotta check out the oters too ;)Lihaas (talk) 14:18, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

May 20

Industrial power rate

Is there an updated version of this list[11]? That data is from 2002 so it's getting a little dated. Scala Cats (talk) 00:05, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What grows in the Fertile Crescent?

How is the fertile crescent fertile? I've seen pictures of that place, and it looks like sand and desert. Where is the food? Where is the water? Where are the lush green plants and fruitful trees? Similarly, there is Egypt. Egypt looks like a lot of sand and sandy-colored pyramids. Maybe the Egyptians had to figure out a way to catch fish? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 02:20, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Did you even try to read the article Fertile Crescent before asking the question? I found the answer to your initial question in about 4 seconds. There's at least 8 major staple crops listed there in a single sentence. --Jayron 32 02:35, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

How do these crops grow in the desert? Are they really desert crops? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 03:05, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't a desert. --Jayron 32 03:07, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following reference should be of interest:

Jan van der Crabben (23 February 2011). "Agriculture in the Fertile Crescent". Ancient History Encyclopedia.

2606:A000:4C0C:E200:0:0:0:1 (talk) 03:14, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm... Wikipedia's article on Jan van der Crabben is about a musician with no mentioning about studies of the agriculture in the fertile crescent. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 03:22, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, wrong Jan. Try this one: [12] — 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:0:0:0:1 (talk) 03:27, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless, it still isn't a desert. here and here and here are images of the Tigris valley. here and here and here are images of the Euphrates valley. Here and here and here are images of the Nile valley in Egypt. Here and here and here are images of the Jordan River valley Those are the four main rivers of the Fertile Crescent. Certainly, there are deserts in the middle east, but not in the Fertile Crescent, which is well irrigated by these rivers and the hydrologic systems that support them. --Jayron 32 03:31, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand how plants can colonize the land nearby a desert. I see deserts right behind the lush greenness in those pictures. What would impede the plants from colonizing further into land? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 03:49, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Unhelpful 50.4.236.254 (talk) 21:31, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
If you stand nearby an intelligent person, it doesn't make you intelligent. If you stand right behind someone who can read and understand what they read, it doesn't mean you can. Same thing here. --Jayron 32 19:54, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Lack of water? Dbfirs 14:07, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Both the Nile and the Tigris/Euphrates were subject to regular flooding, so these rivers not only provided a water source but regularly dumped fertile sediments in the flood plains. Land even a short distance from the flood plain had neither benefit. [13] Alansplodge (talk) 16:46, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Also potentially high salinity (salt pans), the slight insulating effect of water on local temperatures, and sandy soils/hard clays/exposed bedrock being too loose/unbroken for plants to take root. Alcherin (talk) 16:48, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The flood plains have soil and water because of flooding, the surrounding hills don't. That seems to be the crux of the matter. Alansplodge (talk) 18:08, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a picture taken in a marshy area of the land between the rivers:File:Marsh Arabs in a mashoof.jpg. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:32, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Why do humans think they own pieces of the earth?

Is owning property a humanly way to mark one's territory, but instead of using body odor, humans use language? But then, there is the idea that land ownership can be transferred from one human to another, especially by blood. What about the extraterrestrial objects? Who owns the moon, the sun, stars, the asteroids, and other celestial bodies? Is buying land just a peaceful way to own land instead of fighting aggressively for a place on the earth and defending it to the death? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 03:45, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What do you think? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:48, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Imagining a prehistoric tribe of humans, I think land ownership is a way to mark territorial boundaries. Humans tend to be highly territorial creatures and feel threatened when a foreign group of humans encroach on the property unexpectedly, consuming precious resources. The two groups of humans come together and work together to form a bigger group, because somehow cooperation helps both sides survive better. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 04:06, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Land tenure is studied in anthropology.
Sleigh (talk) 07:08, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No one owns the moon. International space law is governed by the 1967 Treaty on Principles Governing the Activities of States in the Exploration and Use of Outer Space, including the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies.
Sleigh (talk) 07:16, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Despite the treaties, the Moon is obviously part of the US... there is, after all, a faded American flag flying on it, as well as trash strewn about and an abandoned car sitting in the yard. 😉 Blueboar (talk) 14:47, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, if you accept that humans can justly write laws and treaties regarding ownership of the Moon, you have already accepted that they have jurisdition over it. Which is but another form of ownership. - Nunh-huh 08:15, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nomadic tries have existed since humans did.Lihaas (talk) 14:34, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nomads in general consider themselves to have land rights or usage rights to particular areas and anyone encroaching on them risks a violent confrontation. Dmcq (talk) 14:46, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Marriage abroad

Hi,

If a man gets married abroad but didn't notify his embassy, is he legally married in his country of origin? If not, can he get married again in another country? And what would happen if the country of origin finds out? They wouldn't notify the country of residence and put their citizen into trouble I guess. Thank you for you answers! 114.219.39.107 (talk) 04:39, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I know royal members married internationally (Catherine the Great, for example), and the marriage was legit because it was solemnized by a cleric. So yep, your hypothetical person may be legally married in his country of origin and the residential country. There is also recognition of common law marriage. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 04:50, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It would depend on the laws of the various applicable countries. It could also depend on what they could get away with. I recall an episode of Who Do You Think You Are? (U.S. TV series) in which Kim Catrall discovered that her grandfather had abandoned his British family, moved to Australia, and remarried (bigamously). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:32, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

(EC) As with nearly all things with a large number of jurisdictions, there's no simple answer for this. In some countries you do not generally need to do anything for your marriage to be recognised in your home country e.g. NZ [14], UK [15]. Exceptions would be when there is question over legality of your marriage, but in such cases you may not always be able to do anything. (I.E. You don't have a process to apply to have you marriage recognised.) Also remember that in certain cases, e.g. bigamy, the marriage may not actually be valid in the country where you had it performed (or at least you may have violated the law) anyway. However there are obviously some cases where a marriage may be valid in some other country but not in the home country. (Polygamy, underage and marriages where the couple are closely related, and issues relating to the sex or gender of the partners are obvious examples.)

In other countries, e.g. Norway [16] or Israel [17], you do need to register your marriage locally in some fashion.

Note for any country there may be multiple levels of recognition. For example, while you marriage may technically be recognised in the home country, local authorities and businesses may require some sort of proof and they may or may not accept documentation from another country. (Notably, immigration laws and regulations may require something beyond simple documentation before a marriage is considered genuine although this can apply to locally performed marriages too.)

I don't personally know of any country which makes it illegal to marry overseas without notification but it wouldn't be surprising. Per International marriage (Japan) and [18], Japan requires notification within 3 months of the marriage. It's not explained what happens if you don't notify, it may simply be it's difficult or impossible to get the marriage recognised locally (i.e. you may just have to re-marry in Japan).

Remember if you marriage isn't recognised locally, you could be penalised for anything you do which isn't allowed for an unmarried couple. E.g. having sex if the country makes it illegal for unmarried couples to have sex, or if one of the partners is underage but of sufficient age if married. In fact, since a number of countries apply extraterritorial jurisdiction to child sex crimes and the ages for these can be quite high, it's possible you may be in violation of your home countries' law even if you only had sex where you got married. Laws penalising things like bigamy, polygamy, underage or maybe some other types of illegal marriages may also apply regardless of where the marriages were performed. (And getting back to my earlier point, the local jurisdiction may simply not allow such marriages, e.g. due to one partner being underage or if the couple are considered excessively related or issues surrounding the sex or gender of the partners; and there may also be laws covering sex or other aspects of these relationships so their actions could be illegal, notification or not.)

Nil Einne (talk) 06:46, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

See Polygamy in the United Kingdom for an example of some of the contortions this sort of thing involves. Dmcq (talk) 08:31, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Consider also the ramifications of same-sex marriage. A Saudi man and a Canadian man can get married in Canada; good luck having that union recognised in Saudi. And in addition to polygamous marriage, referred to above, there is cousin marriage as well. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 20:35, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note that same-sex marriage related issues don't just affect a man trying to marry a man or a woman trying to marry a woman, hence the reason for my wording above. If one partner was assigned male or female at birth but considers themselves female or male; and the other partner is of the opposite gender, they may not classify themselves as a same-sex couple. However some countries will refuse to recognise the person's gender identity or may require certain conditions which aren't met. If they also don't allow same-sex marriage, it's unlikely they will recognise any marriage (assuming it's only one of the partner's who's gender identity differs from their sex assigned at birth). Yet another country may recognise the gender identity and therefore recognise a marriage, even if they don't recognise same-sex marriage. (It's nominally possible a third country won't recognise the gender identity but does recognise same-sex marriage so will allow marriage.) Nil Einne (talk) 05:16, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Occupation of Greece

Looking at various maps it seems that they all differ regarding the depiction of the German occupation zone in Greece during WWII. Take a look at these examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Greece_Prefectures_1941-44.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_Greece_during_WWII.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Triple_Occupation_of_Greece.png https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Occupation_de_la_grece_(1941-1944)_-fr.png?uselang=fr https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/ETO/East/Balkans/maps/AG/AG-Balkans-2.jpg https://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/map/lc/image/gre76060.gif Is there some kind of reference, like an official map from that time, showing the real borders? Thanks! --151.41.178.80 (talk) 09:01, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

All the maps are largely identical with only small variations (precise borders and some of the Aegean islands), except for the ibiblio one that seems to omit the German zone by the Turkish border and Italian zone on Crete, and shifts the German-Italian border far to the east Alcherin (talk) 16:31, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

OP here. They differ in so many places that I honestly don't know how to replicate. --151.41.178.80 (talk) 16:50, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Quebec torture

What is the word for the group of mostly kids who were tortured and experimented upon in Quebec some 70-odd years ago. I believe its at least partially a French word. (2 words I think). Thanks.Lihaas (talk) 14:53, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You might be thinking of the Duplessis Orphans. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:12, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, thanks.Lihaas (talk) 19:15, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

European countries becoming Muslim-majority countries

How long will it be before certain European countries such as Germany become Muslim-majority countries if current trends of mass Muslim immigration combined with low birth rates continue?96.36.40.53 (talk) 15:37, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think that Europe will stop taking Muslim immigrants before then. Look at Britain, despite considerable drawbacks stopping immigration was enough to make Brexit win by a few tenths of a percent while it is still 85% white and Trump won so America can have a wall. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:28, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A study says that Muslims will outnumber Christians by 2070, but the same report claims that Muslims will make up only 10 percent of Europe's population [19]. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 16:32, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That's so long from now the demographic transition will probably happen and the Muslim population will never rise much above 10%. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:07, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The answer really depends on what projected rates of future immigration and birth rates you use, since you'd have to extrapolate the data. Alcherin (talk) 17:32, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

For a valid historical example see Reconquista. You may also research the demography of the Americas where the immigration of Europeans, Africans and other ethnicities had some consequences. Homo sapiens vs Homo Neantahliensis is also interesting. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 18:53, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Certain European countries already are muslim majority/plurality (Bosnia (Sarajevo/Federation, in particular) and Albania; with significantly large minorities in Macedonia and Bulgaria.

Also, in that vein, don't forget about conversion by natives. Similarly, Europe was Christianized too (with Saapmi's being the last). So never say never.

Also per the immediate above, also Aus/NZ and Africa were not originally Christian nor Muslim but now constitute not far from 100%. (some syncretic animism in the latter and atheism/agnosticism in the former.) While E/ Timor and Philippines are also an example. For that matter Arab paganism too.Lihaas (talk) 19:17, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

For the reasons outlined by Adam Bishop, I'm reluctant to answer this but since it already has so many answers perhaps it's worth pointing out that you should expand conversion, to include people simply completely giving upon religion (or changing religion without anyone trying to convert them). In other words the rate of loss and gain or religious followers separate from birth and immigration. Anyone who tells you they can predict any of these trends should give me money since they're clearly a real Nostradamus so must have more than they know what to do with. Nil Einne (talk) 13:06, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely a valid point.Lihaas (talk) 19:34, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

See also Islam in Russia. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:56, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In case anyone hadn't noticed, this is some dumb Eurabia conspiracy shit. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:11, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Is that going to be Shia or Sunni? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:04, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In Europe , defiantely Sunni. ;)Lihaas (talk) 19:34, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nigerian woman's surname

For the purpose of alphabetization in WP categories (via DEFAULTSORT), which is the main surname of prominent midwife educator Aisha Moh’d Kazaure who hails from northern Nigeria? -- Deborahjay (talk) 19:32, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Most Hausa don't use "surnames" in the Western sense. They usually don't have a "family" name shared by the whole family. They have a given name (usually Arabic and they can acquire other names throughout their lives), a patronymic, and sometimes another name to differentiate them from others with the same given name/patronymic sequence, such as a title, a grandfather's name or a geographical name. In this case, "Aisha" is the given name. "Moh'd", a contraction of Muhammad, is likely the patronymic. "Kazaure" indicates that she has roots in the Kazaure district of Nigeria. When Hausa are required by Westerners to indicate which is their "surname" it is often a matter of personal choice, so it's up to the individual. I believe, however, that in cases like this where the name is basically "Aisha, daughter of Mohammad, from Kazaure", the patronymic (Moh'd) is most likely to be the surname. This might have some helpful information: "Hausa Names".--William Thweatt ^Talk^Contribs 20:29, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

With the overview you've provided, my inclination is to leave her entry alphabetized under "A" for her given name, as it's likely this is how she's known and certainly matches the usage on the page I linked in the query, including the cited references. One, from the Edo State page on nairaland.com, refers to another program whose contact persons are "Dr. Mrs. Joy" and "Dr. Mrs. Grace." This offers insight into usage elsewhere that we can appropriately (?) adopt. -- Deborahjay (talk) 07:15, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

May 21

Snow White's characteristics

Snow White is often described as having black hair, light-colored skin like snow (hence snow white), and red lips; and the story supposedly takes place in Germany. How common is black hair in Germany? I thought that the farther north you go, you would see lighter and lighter features. Also, how can a person have black hair (not albino) and snow-white skin (possibly albino)? What's with the black hair? I would have thought that a girl from East Asia with black hair and a powdered face would have those features, but I can't imagine a Northern European having those features. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 04:17, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

1) It's a work of fiction, so it is not beholden to actual rules; your desire for it to be other than it is does not change its nature, Snow White is characterized the way she is even if you wish she hadn't been. Your imagination, or lack thereof, doesn't change anything about the already-written story. 2) This table can be used to find distributions of hair and eye colors in the Germanophone world (Germany, Switzerland, Austria). Black is relatively rare, but not entirely unknown, and regardless, it wouldn't actually change the actual way Snow White was actually described. Your incredulity doesn't change it. --Jayron 32 04:24, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If black hair is relatively rare, then has anybody written anything about the symbolism of the physical characteristics? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 04:35, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Many people have. Maybe something there can provide you wish some additional reading. --Jayron 32 04:39, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Um... I'm not sure if you read that search result, but that search result doesn't show anything pertinent to Snow White's snow-white skin color. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 04:44, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The first item on Jayron's google search, at least for me, is this:[20] which gives an explanation for the color scheme. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:06, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Besides that one, this and this and this and dozens more from the same. I'm not sure 50.4 wants additional reading so much as he wants to argue with reality. --Jayron 32 05:10, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You are not answering this question clearly or directly. This is not productive. Hatting this. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 17:09, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And I un-hatted it. It's evident you're not reading the links you've been provided. And you don't own the thread. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:54, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What the OP wants to hear is that the Disney version is only b-------. Well ? --Askedonty (talk) 20:49, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If you feel the references don't answer the question, please explain why and we can offer further help. The references seem to be fairly simple English, so it's resonable to expect you can read and understand them. If you are unable to read or understand them for whatever reason, the reference desk isn't the place for you so you should stop hanging around. This is not Yahoo Answers or even Stack Exchange. People will summarise or quote references when they are very long and the answer is in a small part, or the reference may be difficult to access (e.g. behind paywall or the OP is known to have access issues because of where they live) but since this is a reference desk, links to references with answers is a completely acceptable answer. If you don't like that the solution is for you to find a place more suited for you, not for you to hat any answer which doesn't fit your preferred form. Nil Einne (talk) 05:06, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

50.4 might find this item educational:[21] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:18, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In some parts of Ireland, the combination of black hair and pale skin was apparently traditionally considered undesirable... AnonMoos (talk) 07:55, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Although that's a VERY common Irish trait, see Black Irish: "a reference to a dark-haired phenotype appearing in people of Irish origin. However, dark hair in people of Irish descent is common, although darker skin complexions appear less frequently". Alansplodge (talk) 10:34, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As for pale skin, note that a lack of exposure to sunlight can result in that, for people of northern European ancestry. That is, they don't have any Sun tanning. This could happen from staying (or being locked) inside, or possibly from living in a forest where little sunlight reaches the ground. This feature was formerly seen as desirable, since it implies a rich woman who doesn't need to work outside. However, note that the trait can remain an ideal, even when decoupled from this justification, much as a woman with large breasts may attract men, since it's originally a sign of fertility, even if those men aren't interested in having kids. Indeed the phrases "fair maiden" and "Who's the fairest of them all ?" both originally referenced light skin color.

Further, somebody with dark hair would lack sun bleaching of their hair, under similar circumstances. StuRat (talk) 17:23, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Anywhere in Europe someone can have black hair and light skin. It's not weird. Very many Germans have dark hair. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:38, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

military order bearing signature

I'm watching Valkyrie (film) and it's making a big deal out of the conspirators tricking Hilter to personally sign the doctored Operation Valkyrie order.

I was wondering would a military order during WWII passing down the chain of command actually bear the actual signature? The original few copies could be manually signed, but I don't see any way to duplicate a signature with WWII-era technology.

Looking at photocopier the technology wasn't available back in WWII. And if I'm not mistaken most orders in WWII were sent over the telegraph, so only text could be transmitted. Scala Cats (talk) 04:41, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Mimeograph and Spirit duplicator machines would have been widely available at the time, and had been for decades. No idea if they were used as you indicate, but your presumption that since photocopiers didn't exist, reliable duplication methods also weren't, doesn't bear out. Duplication machines did exist. --Jayron 32 05:14, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

My bad, didn't know about those.

Still, my question stands, were those duplication methods used on military orders during WWII (for all sides)? Scala Cats (talk) 05:38, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I found an image of Führer's directive 21 (the order for Operation Barbarossa), which Adolf has signed on the second page. The accompanying text says that it was one of nine signed copies. This makes sense, as the directive could be issued to the various army group commanders, who would then draw up their own orders for their corps and divisional commanders and so on down the pecking order. I couldn't find any detailed description of the system, but it seems logical to me. Alansplodge (talk) 10:22, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In the US military in WW2 the mimeograph was widely used for "cutting orders." See [22]. A clerk used a typewriter set to the stencil position to type a mimeograph stencil with the text. In the mimeograph position, the ribbon was moved out of the way so the key hit the stencil hard enough to cause it to allow ink to flow through. The stencil was placed on the rotary mimeo machine and copes were made, from one to several thousand. That way redundancy was allowed with copies for a soldier, his commander, people required to furnish transportation or equipment, headquarters etc. From start to finish a short document could be reproduced in a few copies in three minutes or so. I used mimeo for several years early in my career. It would not include an image of a signature, but it was possible to splice in images by using other methods to produce an image and literally cutting out a space for the image and taping it into the master. If the boss was present, he could write his signature on the stencil so that it printed, just as we could draw diagrams on it.To copy a document with a signature photostats could be used. This was an early 20th century technology which used photographic paper in a big copy camera with attached processing trays. It only took a few minutes. It was great for a few copies but not practical for hundreds or thousands because of the cost and time. A black and white photo of a document could be taken to a printer where it was electrochemically made into a printing plate and thousands of copies could be made in a few hours (like a newspaper). Edison (talk) 16:13, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Meixi Archways

I need help finding better more reliable alternatives to these sources (preferably printed and in English). The second one seems to be blacklisted by Wikipedia so you will need to google it.

Travel China Guide. "Meixi Archways Scenic Area (Meixi Paifang Scenic Area)". Travel China Guide. Retrieved May 16, 2017.
Liang, Ling (December 6, 2012). "Meixi Memorial Archways". China Highlights. {{cite web}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); Missing or empty |url= (help)

--KAVEBEAR (talk) 07:09, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If you're having trouble finding reliable English sources, then I can take a look through Chinese language results and translate them for you. I did come across this though. Alcherin (talk) 10:21, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Is the wedding ceremony or the marriage license proof of marriage?

First of all, what is the difference between the marriage license and the wedding ceremony? Which one determines that one is married? In a graduation ceremony, the diploma is awarded on the ceremony, so the ceremony marks the day of graduation. However, does the same apply to marriages too? In other words, which one - wedding ceremony or marriage license - marks the day of marriage? Do the marriage license and wedding ceremony occur on the same day? Does a person need a wedding ceremony if the person already has a marriage license? I know it seems like a lot of questions, but all these questions are concerned with the difference between the wedding ceremony and the marriage license. If this is an overly broad question that cannot be answered on the Reference Desk, then please directly say so; and I will narrow down the scope to a specific country. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 19:55, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In the typical U.S. state, you apply for and instantly receive a marriage license; this allows you to get married within a certain number of days, which probably varies by state but could be, say, 30 days or 60 days. Then within that time frame you get married at either a judge's chambers or elsewhere, and you are married from that moment onward. Someone (either the married couple or the one who conducted the ceremony—I can't recall which) informs the county clerk's office that the marriage took place on a certain date, and the clerk's office (perhaps with a slight time lag) issues a marriage certificate to you stating what date you got married.

So the marriage license is permission to marry, while the marriage certificate is proof that you did get married. I'd be surprised if any state deviates in any substantive way from this description. I don't know about outside the US. Loraof (talk) 20:26, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

30 to 60 days? If anyone wants to get married in the States, then I presume that one initiates engagement at one point. Then, just before the intended wedding day, one applies for a marriage license. If one applies for a license right after the engagement, then one has only 30-60 days to prepare for a wedding. Then, the wedding day happens, and then the marriage certificate is sent. Then, the official day of marriage is the wedding day or the marriage certificate issuing day? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 20:50, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The official day of marriage is the wedding day. Loraof (talk) 22:48, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In the United States, is marriage in the judge's chambers a wedding ceremony, or is it when the judge just hands you your marriage certificate, declaring that you are married? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 20:56, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Getting married in the judge's chambers is just like getting married anywhere else—the judge reads certain things, though not as much as a religious leader would read during a church marriage ceremony. Some people might say that what the judge does is too short to be called a wedding or a ceremony, while others would still use those terms. In any event, what happens in the judge's chambers is that he makes you a married couple. When you receive the marriage certificate, a little later, is irrelevant. Loraof (talk) 22:48, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a justice of the peace in Vermont, and authorized to solemnize marriages here. The couple arranges with a person authorized to solemnize marriages (the officiant) to conduct the ceremony. The officiant could be a religious leader, a judge, a justice of the peace, etc. The couple brings the marriage license to the ceremony. The couple is married as soon as the ceremony is complete. Right after the ceremony the officiant fills out the blanks on the license, including the date of the ceremony, and signs it. Then the officiant returns it to the town clerk who issued the license. After enough time has gone by for the certificate to be copied into the official records, the couple may request (for a fee) a certified copy of the marriage certificate. Jc3s5h (talk) 23:00, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That is also the basic pattern in the UK - the licence permits marriage, and the certificate is proof that it actually happened. You have to go through a ceremony (either civil or religious), and then sign the register, to qualify for the certificate. In France, marriage is a civil matter - you get married at the local mairie and obtain the necessary certificate there. Religious marriage is optional, and has no legal standing. Wymspen (talk) 20:39, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There's no such thing as a marriage licence in Australia. Two people who wish to marry (and that means a man and a woman, until we enter the 21st century and permit same-sex marriage) simply arrange with the priest/minister or civil marriage celebrant to have a wedding, and the certificate is issued by the celebrant at the conclusion of the ceremony and handed to the happy couple. Simples. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:10, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Some branches of Quakerism marry without registering their marriage with the government. This practice dates back to Quakerism's earliest days. See Quaker wedding. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:12, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In about 15 U.S. states, common law marriages are recognized, and they, of course, have no licences. Or ceremonies. - Nunh-huh

When I got married in Ontario, Canada, the "Marriage Licence and Certificate" were one piece of paper with that title. The bottom part, the certificate, was completed at the ceremony and was the proof of marriage. Once the marriage was recorded we could also order wallet-card certificates from the government. --69.159.60.50 (talk) 00:11, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Marriage process in modern China, Japan, and the Koreas

I should have mentioned this beforehand. What is the process for marriage in those countries? I've heard that people just apply for a marriage license and hold a wedding banquet. Do they issue a marriage certificate too? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 22:41, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The U.S. Embassy in Seoul describes the South Korean marriage process here. It does involve a Certificate of Marriage Registration (수리증명서, soo-ree jeung-myung-suh). See also marriage in South Korea (articles needs a lot of work). Neutrality^talk 03:23, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In China the general process is submitting an application to marry, getting a health check, then getting the marriage registered (and receiving a certificate to prove it). The application and registration steps are both done at the government marriage registration office. The wedding banquet is cultural and can be held before, on the same day, or some time after the actual registration. For most people there is no separate "marriage licence" step. Wikitravel weirdly has an article on getting married in China: [23]--PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:45, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In Britain a church wedding does not normally require a licence. In a previous discussion 78.146 gave an insight into Jewish weddings:

Following up this thesis I examined the books in my own library. I soon lighted on a copy of Jewish Customs and Ceremonies by Ben M Edidin (New York, 1941). On page 69 there is a drawing of a scroll. The text above and below discusses the hupah. I therefore assumed this was a drawing of a hupah. However, on further investigation I found on page 67 the statement that the hupah is a canopy. It was only when I reached page 70 that I found out that the marriage contract is called ketubah. At this point I suspected that the drawing was of a marriage contract, and deciphering the Hebrew letters at the top it was indeed "KTUBH" ... Even in the simple example cited above there's room for further confusion. Another book describes the formal agreement, (which is a written contract), as 'tenaim (Hebrew for "betrothal terms").' The ketubah is the marriage certificate. Both works agree that this document is written in Aramaic and sets out the husband's obligations to his wife. So we have to distinguish between pre - and post - nuptial agreements, contracts and certificates - and this is a simple example!

May 22

Beyond combining all individual bibles into all - in - one now

Is it beyond even possible to combining all individual bibles into all - in -one now?

As opposed to how its always been. I for one would truly love for sure instead getting more one.--Jessica A Bruno (waybeyondfedup) 00:18, 22 May 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jessicaabrunowaybeyondfedup (talk • contribs)

I am guessing that you mean all the different version of the Christian Bible. Yes, this can be done online, and I believe many sites attempt to do just that. Of course, the books that some would like included in the Bible are nearly endless, so this is quite an undertaking. Some may also have been lost.

It's also possible you meant to include all religious writings, which would be an even more daunting task. StuRat (talk) 00:21, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

'All' is rather a wide term. I suppose it would include things like the Conservapedia crowd-sourced Bible where they try and remove any liberal untruth introduced since Christ first gave his clear upstanding right wing libertarian message. :) Dmcq (talk) 00:31, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Also note that Wikipedia is a good source for multiple versions. For example, our Ten Commandments article includes many versions and sources. StuRat (talk) 00:35, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

But would this "super bible" include these? What about this? Blueboar (talk) 01:12, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The issues would be not just which books to include, but also what "proper" translation to use. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:56, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Any such online attempt to combine all bibles would be either be taken down for copyright violations or not include many recent translations. --Guy Macon (talk) 04:43, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Multilingual Bibles were kind of a 16th-century fad, facilitated by the invention of printing. The first one was the "Complutensian Polyglot". See Polyglot (book)... AnonMoos (talk) 07:17, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The OP may be interested in The Word: The Bible from 26 Translations[24][25][26]. It contains:

Old Testament:

KJV -The complete text appears in boldface type
AAT -The Bible: An American Translation (J.M. Powis Smith and Edgar J. Goodspeed)
ABPS -The Holy Bible Containing the Old and New Testaments: An Improved Edition (American Baptist Publication Society)
Amp -The Amplified Bible
ASV -The American Standard Version
Bas -The Bible in Basic English
Ber -The Modern Language Bible: The New Berkeley Version in Modern English
DeW -Praise-Songs of Israel: A Rendering of the Book of Psalms (John DeWitt)
Har -The Psalms for Today: A New Translation from Hebrew into Current English (R.K. Harrison)
Jerus -The Jerusalem Bible
JPS -The Holy Scriptures According to the Masoretic Test: A New Translation (The Jewish Publication Society)
Knox - The Holy Bible: A Translatioon From the Latin Vulgate in the Light of the Hebrew and Greek Originals (Monsignor Ronald Knox)
Lam - The Holy Bible From Ancient Eastern Manuscripts (George M. Lamsa)
Mof - A New Translation of the Bible (James Moffatt)
NAB -The New American Bible
NEB -The New English Bible
PBV -The Psalms in the Book of Common Prayer of the Anglican Church
Phi -Four Prophets: Amos, Hosea, First Isaiah, Micah (J.B. Phillips)
Rhm -The Emphasized Bible: A New Translation (J.B. Rotherham)
RSV -The Revised Standard Version
RSV -The Holy Bible: Revised Version
Sept -The Septuagint (Charles Thomson)
Sprl -A Translation of the Old Testament Scriptures From the Original Hebrew (Helen Spurrell)
Tay -The Living Bible: Paraphrased (Kenneth Taylor)
Tor -The Torah: The Five Books of Moses
YLT -Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible (Robert Young)

New Testament:

KJV -The complete text appears in boldface type
ABUV -The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, American Bible Union Version (John A. Broadus et al)
Alf -The New Testament (Henry Alford)
Amp -The Amplified New Testament
ASV -The American Standard Version
Bas -The New Testament in Basic English
Beck -The New Testament in the Language of Today (William F. Beck)
Ber -The Berkely Version of the New Testament (Gerrit Verkuyl)
Con -The Epistles of Paul (W.J. Conybeare)
Gspd -The New Testament: An American Translation (Edgar J. Goodspeed)
Knox -The New Testament in the Translation of Monsignor Ronald Knox
Lam -The New Testament According to the Eastern Texts (George M. Lamsa)
Mof -The New Testament: A New Translation (James Moffatt)
Mon -The Centerary Translation: The New Testament in Modern English (Helen Barrett Montgomery)
NASB -The New American Standard Bible: New Testament
NEB -The New English Bible: New Testament
Nor -The New Testament: A New Translation (Olaf N. Norlie)
Phi -The New Testament in Modern English (J.B. Phillips)
Rieu -The Books of Acts (C.H. Rieu)
Rieu -The Four Gospels (E.V. Rieu)
Rhm -The Emphasized New Testament: A New Translation (J.B. Rotherham)
RSV -The Revised Standard Version
Tay -Living Letters: The Paraphrased Epistles; Living Gospels: The Paraphrased Gospels; Living Prophecies: The Minor Prophets Paraphrased and Daniel and the Revelation (Kenneth N. Taylor)
TCNT -The Twentieth Century New Testament
Wey -The New Testament in Modern Speech (Richard Francis Weymouth)
Wms -The New Testament: A Translation in the Language of the People (Charles B. Williams)

--Guy Macon (talk) 04:43, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

More examples:

Hexapla
English Hexapla. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.0.159 (talk) 12:48, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There are several issues involved in creating a Bible translation. Even assuming you only want to think about English versions (ignoring the thousands of other languages) you first have to determine what was the original text as written, and then decide what it means. We do not possess the originals of any part of the Bible - there are many old manuscripts, but as they had to be copied by hand, they vary. Most differences are minor - some are clearly mistakes by a scribe, or different ways of expressing the same meaning. A few matter - so you either include the possibly contradictory versions in your translation, or pick one. As the languages used to write the Bible are no longer in use (modern Greek and Hebrew are related, but have changed over time) it is not always simple to decide what a word or a phrase meant when it was first used. Do you put several possible meanings into your translation, or pick one? Then you have to pick the best way to express that in modern English - which is a much richer language than either Greek or Hebrew, and can often express a single idea in many different ways. So do you use modern colloquial English, or stick to a more traditional or literary style? There really is no way to come up with a single translation which is right for every English speaker today. Wymspen (talk) 13:27, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Manbulge

The article Packing (phallus) describes the artificial bulge used by transmen as a "packer". Is there a non-slang standard word for the natural/non-artificial bulge in cis men that is not ambiguous? The terms manbulge, mooseknuckle, trouser tent, lunchbox, cockbulge etc. all seem like slang or colloquially nonstandard. Please provide references since I'm considering adding them to the "packing" article. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.67.95.137 (talk) 10:24, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Codpiece was quite unrevealing in this respect. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 10:37, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I dont think "codpiece" can be added to the packing article. I'm thinking of adding something along the lines of "... for transmen who want to resemble having a (insert term here)". 79.67.95.137 (talk) 10:41, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Does "genital bulge" not work? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.60.183 (talk) 18:27, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nope. I'm looking for a single noun without adjectives. I guess manbulge is the most standard term even though its slang. 79.67.95.137 (talk) 19:09, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Agricultural revolution and cats

Ok, so dogs get a lot of credit over cats for being useful and for being able to be put to work whereas cats are depicted as lazy, aloof unwilling to be trained, etc. - I think it's time to redress that balance. Sure, dogs are very useful for all sorts of purposes at the moment, but I think it's cats who got the ball rolling. Without them, the agricultural revolution would never have been possible because unprotected granary stores would have been plundered and infected by vermin, right? So, is it fair to say that without cats, we'd never have made from the transition from hunter-gatherers to organised, settled communities. Maybe the reason ancient cultures worshipped them was because they knew how fundamentally important they were to their society, especially in terms of ensuring a grain surplus. Just checking that my theory makes sense, or if I'm missing something entirely --Andrew 17:37, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In Ancient Egypt, they were venerated for their ability to hunt and kill rats, mice and most especially cobras. You can read about their status in our article on Cats in ancient Egypt. Cats were certainly a factor in civilization's move from hunter-gathering to agriculture but there were other agricultural civilizations thriving at the same time as the Egyptians potentially without the use of domesticated felines.. uhhlive (talk) 18:10, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

See Shillourokambos, which is evidence that humans domesticated cats as early as 9,500 years ago, which would indicate that domestication of cats is correlated with the neolithic revolution, with all of the caveats of correlation does not imply causation. --Jayron 32 18:18, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I like to think that whilst man domesticated the dog. Cats domesticated man. As said above, cats are not easily trained as they are their own masters. Their ancestors realized that the early agriacultralists proved them with a sources of vermin all year round – so they moved in. At the same time, making sure, that on cold winter nights they always had the warmest place next to the fire and trained humans to sit in the second best place around that fire. Aspro (talk) 18:58, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Currently the favored hypothesis among all the biologists I know is that dogs and cats both domesticated themselves, i.e. it's not that we bred them selectively for certain traits, but that the situation was such that those who didn't mind living around humans higher lifetime fecundity. Self-domestication#In_animals. Note also that domestic cats are far less changed in terms of genetics than dogs are, compared to their wild counterparts. This is mentioned at cat. SemanticMantis (talk) 20:29, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"So, is it fair to say...", no, not really. It is fair to say cats seemed to have performed a very important service in many societies around the time that grain storage became important to human settlements. See rat catcher, rat terrier and even mouse trap for non-cat ways that some human societies have dealt with rodents in their grain stores. Pest_control#History also has some general info, but not much on rodents. While indeed lack of cats may have hypothetically made grain storage harder in the neolithic era, WP:OR I don't think it's fair to say the agricultural revolution wouldn't have happened. But none of us can say for sure, we don't have a working crystal ball. SemanticMantis (talk) 20:36, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Also, isn't the feline trait of burying feces important to domestication ? That is, any number of animals could hunt rodents, but they would also leave feces around the camp. Not a desirable trait, as this tends to spread disease (primitive man may not have known this, just that stepping in poo is "gross", not knowing that this disgust is an adaptation to avoid disease). Of course, dogs do leave little "presents" everywhere, but the benefits must justify this increased disease risk. StuRat (talk) 21:02, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Stu, where is your evidence for the above? How do we know that primitive humans disliked stepping in faeces? What are the benefits you speak of? By the way, I cannot think of a domesticated agricultural animal that does no transmit zoonosis. DrChrissy ^(talk) 21:32, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What decade is this wallpaper from, roughly?

I have recently come across this old wallpaper in a house I was refurbishing. Are there any art experts on Wikipedia that can tell me what era this style of art comes from, even if it is a guess? Thanks! --Abledtaken (talk) 20:59, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 569: / Line 569: @@
 :Also, isn't the feline trait of burying feces important to domestication ?  That is, any number of animals could hunt rodents, but they would also leave feces around the camp.  Not a desirable trait, as this tends to spread disease (primitive man may not have known this, just that stepping in poo is "gross", not knowing that this disgust is an adaptation to avoid disease).  Of course, dogs do leave little "presents" everywhere, but the benefits must justify this increased disease risk.  [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] ([[User talk:StuRat|talk]]) 21:02, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
+::Stu, where is your evidence for the above? How do we know that primitive humans disliked stepping in faeces? What are the benefits you speak of?   By the way, I cannot think of a domesticated agricultural animal that does no transmit [[zoonosis]]. <span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">DrChrissy</span> <sup><span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:red; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">[[User talk:DrChrissy|(talk)]]</span></sup> 21:32, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 == What decade is this wallpaper from, roughly? ==