Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style: Difference between revisions
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*:::::I am saying that this dispute has been going on for MONTHS and you're just now suggesting there is no space between "de" and "Lesseps"??????? That was never once brought up by you during our MANY , many, many discussions. This so called alleged "legal document" photo, shared by a gossip tabloid, is the only thing in existence which blends the two. The show which Luann de Lesseps has been on for many years, credits her as Luann de Lesseps, small "d", space, capital "L" as does every reputable source available to the public. So am I to understand that you are now asserting an entirely different viewpoint on this issue??? [[User:AnAudLife|AnAudLife]] ([[User talk:AnAudLife|talk]]) 18:30, 22 October 2019 (UTC) |
*:::::I am saying that this dispute has been going on for MONTHS and you're just now suggesting there is no space between "de" and "Lesseps"??????? That was never once brought up by you during our MANY , many, many discussions. This so called alleged "legal document" photo, shared by a gossip tabloid, is the only thing in existence which blends the two. The show which Luann de Lesseps has been on for many years, credits her as Luann de Lesseps, small "d", space, capital "L" as does every reputable source available to the public. So am I to understand that you are now asserting an entirely different viewpoint on this issue??? [[User:AnAudLife|AnAudLife]] ([[User talk:AnAudLife|talk]]) 18:30, 22 October 2019 (UTC) |
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*:::::::You do realize the spelling and capitalization of one's common name can differ from that of their legal name? Yes, we are sorting her common name, but I'm presenting the legal spelling of it to make sure when one makes a statement regarding sorting that they have all of the information. Also, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AThe_Real_Housewives_of_New_York_City&type=revision&diff=912354283&oldid=912142042 I've cited the legal document before as one of the bases of my position], so please refer to that so I don't have to keep repeating myself. {{tq|This so called alleged "legal document" photo, shared by a gossip tabloid, is the only thing in existence which blends the two.}} Again, are you still contending that the source is unreliable? If so, state it and present your reasoning so we can understand. [[User:KyleJoan|<span style="font-family:Consolas; color:#CD8C95">'''K'''yle'''J'''oan</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:KyleJoan|<span style="font-family:Consolas; color:#8B6969">talk</span>]]</sup> 18:57, 22 October 2019 (UTC) |
*:::::::You do realize the spelling and capitalization of one's common name can differ from that of their legal name? Yes, we are sorting her common name, but I'm presenting the legal spelling of it to make sure when one makes a statement regarding sorting that they have all of the information. Also, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AThe_Real_Housewives_of_New_York_City&type=revision&diff=912354283&oldid=912142042 I've cited the legal document before as one of the bases of my position], so please refer to that so I don't have to keep repeating myself. {{tq|This so called alleged "legal document" photo, shared by a gossip tabloid, is the only thing in existence which blends the two.}} Again, are you still contending that the source is unreliable? If so, state it and present your reasoning so we can understand. [[User:KyleJoan|<span style="font-family:Consolas; color:#CD8C95">'''K'''yle'''J'''oan</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:KyleJoan|<span style="font-family:Consolas; color:#8B6969">talk</span>]]</sup> 18:57, 22 October 2019 (UTC) |
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{{Outdent}}I think that your assumption that the VERY WELL KNOWN name, "de Lesseps", dating back centuries, is spelled "Delesseps" based on one alleged photo shared by a tabloid rag is a huge reach. More importantly, this new argument of yours has no real bearing on this discussion, as to how it is sorted. [[User:AnAudLife|AnAudLife]] ([[User talk:AnAudLife|talk]]) 19:27, 22 October 2019 (UTC) |
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* There's a redundant discussion open at [[Talk:The Real Housewives of New York City]]. In that particular case, this comment by someone else is obviously correct: "Luann de Lesseps, an American, married a Frenchman, Alexandre de Lesseps. He is French, his name is French therefore so is Luann's." It's not the Anglicized name "De Lesseps" (usually alphabetized under "D"), it's the French name "de Lesseps" (alphabetized under "L"). Similarly, if Emma Vandenberg was born Emma Shtoop in the Netherlands and married an American named Jim-Bob Vandenberg, she's alphabetized as ''Vandenberg, Emma'', regardless of the fact that her next door neighbor growing up in Amsterdam was Jan van den Berg, alphabetized under B. This is about languages and conventions within them (more precisely, the average conventions of publishers who focus on works in that language, as encapsulated in the majority of style guides and other reliable sources on what to do in those particular languages) – not where a specific individual was born. Anyway, I've referred parties at that talk page to this talk page, since there's this open RfC on it. — [[User:AReaderOutThataway|AReaderOutThataway]] <sup>[[User talk:AReaderOutThataway|t]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/AReaderOutThataway|c]]</sub> 18:18, 22 October 2019 (UTC) |
* There's a redundant discussion open at [[Talk:The Real Housewives of New York City]]. In that particular case, this comment by someone else is obviously correct: "Luann de Lesseps, an American, married a Frenchman, Alexandre de Lesseps. He is French, his name is French therefore so is Luann's." It's not the Anglicized name "De Lesseps" (usually alphabetized under "D"), it's the French name "de Lesseps" (alphabetized under "L"). Similarly, if Emma Vandenberg was born Emma Shtoop in the Netherlands and married an American named Jim-Bob Vandenberg, she's alphabetized as ''Vandenberg, Emma'', regardless of the fact that her next door neighbor growing up in Amsterdam was Jan van den Berg, alphabetized under B. This is about languages and conventions within them (more precisely, the average conventions of publishers who focus on works in that language, as encapsulated in the majority of style guides and other reliable sources on what to do in those particular languages) – not where a specific individual was born. Anyway, I've referred parties at that talk page to this talk page, since there's this open RfC on it. — [[User:AReaderOutThataway|AReaderOutThataway]] <sup>[[User talk:AReaderOutThataway|t]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/AReaderOutThataway|c]]</sub> 18:18, 22 October 2019 (UTC) |
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*:I've closed that redundant thread per [[WP:MULTI]], and used {{tlx|Moved discussion to}} to soft-redirect people to {{em|this}} RfC. Someone had already removed the RfC tag from the one over there. {{ping|KyleJoan|Pbsouthwood|Almond Plate|AnAudLife}} pinging previous commenters at that thread so they can comment here or (if they already did) make sure their views in both RfCs are consistent, etc. — [[User:AReaderOutThataway|AReaderOutThataway]] <sup>[[User talk:AReaderOutThataway|t]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/AReaderOutThataway|c]]</sub> 18:37, 22 October 2019 (UTC) |
*:I've closed that redundant thread per [[WP:MULTI]], and used {{tlx|Moved discussion to}} to soft-redirect people to {{em|this}} RfC. Someone had already removed the RfC tag from the one over there. {{ping|KyleJoan|Pbsouthwood|Almond Plate|AnAudLife}} pinging previous commenters at that thread so they can comment here or (if they already did) make sure their views in both RfCs are consistent, etc. — [[User:AReaderOutThataway|AReaderOutThataway]] <sup>[[User talk:AReaderOutThataway|t]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/AReaderOutThataway|c]]</sub> 18:37, 22 October 2019 (UTC) |
Revision as of 19:27, 22 October 2019
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Manual of Style page. |
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Frequently asked questions Wikipedia's Manual of Style contains some conventions that differ from those in some other, well-known style guides and from what is often taught in schools. Wikipedia's editors have discussed these conventions in great detail and have reached consensus that these conventions serve our purposes best. New contributors are advised to check the FAQ and the archives to see if their concern has already been discussed. Why does the Manual of Style recommend straight (keyboard-style) instead of curly (typographic) quotation marks and apostrophes (i.e., the characters " and ', instead of “, ”, ‘, and ’)?
Users may only know how to type in straight quotes (such as " and ') when searching for text within a page or when editing. Not all Web browsers find curly quotes when users type straight quotes in search strings. Why does the Manual of Style recommend logical quotation?
This system is preferred because Wikipedia, as an international and electronic encyclopedia, has specific needs better addressed by logical quotation than by the other styles, despite the tendency of externally published style guides to recommend the latter. These include the distinct typesetters' style (often called American, though not limited to the US), and the various British/Commonwealth styles, which are superficially similar to logical quotation but have some characteristics of typesetters' style. Logical quotation is more in keeping with the principle of minimal change to quotations, and is less prone to misquotation, ambiguity, and the introduction of errors in subsequent editing, than the alternatives. Logical quotation was adopted in 2005, and has been the subject of perennial debate that has not changed this consensus. Why does the Manual of Style differentiate the hyphen (-), en dash (–), em dash (—), and minus sign (−)?
Appropriate use of hyphens and dashes is as much a part of literate, easy-to-read writing as are correct spelling and capitalization. The "Insert" editing tools directly below the Wikipedia editing window provide immediate access to all these characters. Why does the Manual of Style recommend apostrophe+s for singular possessive of names ending in s?
Most modern style guides treat names ending with s just like other singular nouns when forming the possessive. The few that do not propose mutually contradictory alternatives. Numerous discussions have led to the current MoS guidance (see discussions of 2004, 2005, 2005, 2006, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2008, 2008, 2009, 2009, 2009, 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2017, 2017, 2018, 2018, 2019, 2021,
2022). Why doesn't the Manual of Style always follow specialized practice?
Although Wikipedia contains some highly technical content, it is written for a general audience. While specialized publications in a field, such as academic journals, are excellent sources for facts, they are not always the best sources for or examples of how to present those facts to non-experts. When adopting style recommendations from external sources, the Manual of Style incorporates a substantial number of practices from technical standards and field-specific academic style guides; however, Wikipedia defaults to preferring general-audience sources on style, especially when a specialized preference may conflict with most readers' expectations, and when different disciplines use conflicting styles. |
![]() | Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments, look in the archives, and review the FAQ before commenting. |
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Style discussions elsewhere
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Add a link to new discussions at top of list and indicate what kind of discussion it is (move request, RfC, open discussion, deletion discussion, etc.). Follow the links to participate, if interested. Move to Concluded when decided and summarize conclusion. Please keep this section at the top of the page.
Current
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- Wikipedia talk:Timeline standards#Past vs Present tense again (Open discussion, possible future RfC)
- Wikipedia talk:Article titles#Gay or Gay? (open discussion)
- Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Awards#Award wins, nominations, and "pending" awards (open discussion)
- Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#ERA style solutions (open discussion)
- Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Words to watch#Racist, sexist, homophobic, and transphobic (open discussion)
- Help talk:Citation Style 1#Italics of websites in citations and references – request for comment (RfC)
Concluded
Extended content
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RFC on Sorting of Names with Particles
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This issue has to do with the sorting of surnames that are preceded by prefixes known as particles, such as de or von. The rules for sorting of surnames are complex and depend on the customs of the nationality. The question is whether names should be sorted based on the national origin of the surname, or the nationality of the person. An example is Luann de Lesseps, an American socialite and reality TV personality, whose surname is that of her French nobleman husband. Should she be alphabetized as: A. de Lesseps, Luann (nationality of person, American) or B. Lesseps, Luann de (national origin of name, French) or C. It depends. If so, specify what it depends on.
Enter your !votes with a brief statement as A or B. Enter any back-and-forth comments in the Threaded Discussion.
RfC expired on October 16 and restarted on October 20. KyleJoantalk 03:17, 20 October 2019 (UTC)
Robert McClenon (talk) 00:52, 16 September 2019 (UTC) I have updated the RFC to add C. If specifying C, please indicate what it depends on. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:48, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Survey
- Oppose both A and B. The correct answer is: it depends. If we have evidence that the subject prefers one usage or the other, we should follow that. The two given choices A and B are insufficient, and we should not start making rules for things that would normally fall under editorial judgement per WP:CREEP. So formulating this RFC as a binary choice between which of two new rules we should impose was a bad choice. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:22, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
- Support A, B or C. It is standard practice in the library and archive world to index names by the particle if the name is not native to the country from which the individual comes and without it if it is. So, in this case, as she's American it would be A, but if she was French it would be B. However, this would only apply if it was her birth name. Given it's her married name and her husband, as a Frenchman, would be indexed without the particle, it's a less cut and dried case. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:09, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
- Support B. Lesseps, Luann de. Since her name is a French name that she still uses post-divorce, given to her by marriage from a French nobleman, Count Alexandre de Lesseps, and the traditional cultural usage as well as historical indexing of the name is to sort by the surname not the particle, I think one would conclude that in this case it should be indexed under Lesseps. I see no reason to index them differently because of nationality. AnAudLife (talk) 17:25, September 16, 2019 (UTC)
- Support B. The sorting order of names should depend solely on the name, not on any other factor that has nothing to do with the name itself. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 15:59, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
- Support B - The sorting order of names should depend on the national origin and history of the name, not of the person with the name. If related persons in a family have different nationalities, they should still sort together. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:45, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
- C – it depends. The same name is apt to be indexed differently by language and other cultural considerations. Jan van Leuwen in Amsterdam probably expects to be alphabetized under L, and even most English-language sources would do so (at least formal and academic publishers would, and WP is one). But a Torontonian, Londoner, or San Franciscan named John Van Leuwen (and he probably would capitalize the V) would generally expect alphabetization under V. "Van" is just an opaque name fragment in English, but means (and is parsed as) 'of' in Dutch. — AReaderOutThataway t/c 22:44, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
- C - Make it simple and base it on the same reliable English-language sources that presumably informed the rest of the article. We can spend hours parsing a name's history and details of cultural usage but at the end of the day, if the New York Times (or some other reliable source) uses de Lessup, Luann, then why not go with it? If equally solid, respectable sources use different naming conventions (there's plenty of that) then sort it out on the talk page. Glendoremus (talk) 04:48, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
- Support C, The sorting of names with prefixes varies according to cultural tradition. This case refers to an American television series, and an American person, written in American English. I see no reason not to follow American procedure per WP:MCSTJR, with the proviso that an American name means the name of an American person, regardless of the history of the name, as that is the simplest logical interpretation of WP:MCSTJR. · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 05:01, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
- A it depends on the article language - the description is correct that the rules are complex and depend on the customs of the nationality. The order or capitalizing of nobiliary particles in grammar guide (Chicago Manual of Style et al) or common answers would be hard to describe. (I'll note that I have seen cases such as John le Carre listed under l and under C, and Vanderbilt as a single string is obviously under V, Van Gogh is capital V but not Vincent van Gogh, , Charles de Gaulle is lowercase d, but not Cecil De Mille, and then Martin van Buren and so forth.) But there could at least be a simplification convention for practicality that the usage in a list would dependent on the article language (e.g. in British English) so that the list would consistently follow one set of rules and a name can be found. In the context shown I think that would be to start with the particle and to capitalize it as the first letter: "De Lessups, Luann"; "Le Carre, John"; "De Gaulle, Charles". Cheers Markbassett (talk) 05:39, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
- Support C. Due to the inconsistency between the subject's nationality and that of the first person known to have the surname, sorting Mrs. de Lesseps in a way that is analogous to the way she invokes her name (i.e. de Lesseps, Luann) seems the most appropriate. KyleJoantalk 00:03, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
- Support C. With German names, both options are required, as with French, Dutch, etc. There are names such as von Allmen where the «von» is a necessary part of the name, and there are other cases where it is a detachable nobility prefix, so we need both options. --mach 🙈🙉🙊 07:14, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
- Support B. Depends on the language of the article: sorting is for the benefit of the reader, who cannot be expected to know the subjects' nationalities nor their various sorting conventions. Besides, I'd look for Richard of York under Y whether or not "of York" is really a surname or not. Batternut (talk) 08:28, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
- D Sort on the particle for everybody. No exceptions. --Khajidha (talk) 15:45, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
- Support C. The sorting should be based on the most usual capitalisation of the article in the full combined first and last name. If the article is capitalised, it should be used in sorting, if it is not capitalised it should be ignored in sorting. Advantage of this rule is that no deep digging into origin of name and person is needed, while the used spelling needs to be sourced anyway.−Woodstone (talk) 06:24, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
- C Follow the sources for the speciifc case, and failing that (if sources are not clear) use editorial judgement. This is to complex for per-defiend rules. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 22:46, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- Support C (opposing both A and B) as per David Eppstein, and particularly "
it depends
", and we should not straitjacket editorial judgment. Also: While allowing that rest of the world is not entirely consistent (especially across languages), we should not try to be different. Collating of names is something we should strive to be as consistent as possible with general practice in order to minimize confusion (the principle of least surprise). For that reason any discussion that does not review other authoritative practice is deficient, and therefore not a proper basis for making a rule. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:57, 20 October 2019 (UTC)
Threaded Discussion
- According to this [2] there was a Proton family in New Jersey in 1880 and Protons lifespan has been decreasing recently ("An unusually short lifespan might indicate that your Proton ancestors lived in harsh conditions"). This [3] suggests there are Protons in far-flung India, Australia and Argentina. So this question about particles has more significance than one might think.
- Seriously, we've talked about this recently with no resolution:
- At that time I passed on someone's suggestion to start alphabetizing with the first uppercased word (i.e. ignore the particle if it's lowercased). We're certainly not going to countenance rules based on someone's nationality -- can you imagine that Arbcom case? (That's assuming we adopt a rule at all -- not convinced yet of that, as I still haven't seen the dispute on multiple articles called for in WP:NONEEDNORULE.)
- Of course, in these days of <ctrl>-F I wonder how much this matters anyway. EEng 01:41, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
- WP:MCSTJR states:
Whether or not to include the particle in sorting can be up to the individual's personal preference, traditional cultural usage or the customs of one's nationality
, and thatAmerican, Australian, Canadian, and English names generally sort on the prefix, regardless of capitalization.
What is the correct interpretation of these guidelines? For example, all of the most common surnames in Australia in 2007 originated elsewhere. So, would Australian names in this context be names that originated in Australia, are popular in Australia, or names of Australian nationals? If it is all of the above, then wouldn't the customs of one's nationality encompass traditional cultural usage? Furthermore, regarding this case specifically, according to this New York Times article, the subject states that she prefers to be addressed as Mrs. de Lesseps. I wonder whether that qualifies as a personal preference. KyleJoantalk 01:49, 16 September 2019 (UTC) - In WP:MCSTJR it says, “Names with particles or prefixes are a complex field and there are exceptions and inconsistencies.” And then goes on to say, “Whether or not to include the particle in sorting can be up to the individual's personal preference, traditional cultural usage or the customs of one's nationality.” Firstly, we have absolutely no idea how she prefers her name to be alphabetized but we do know that she likes it spoken out loud as “Luann” or Mrs. de Lesseps, which is common, you don’t drop the particle when speaking the name. Secondly, traditional cultural usage is, according to WP:MCSTJR, “Generally, Dutch, French, German, Italian, Portuguese, and Spanish names do not include lowercase particles in sorting, but do include uppercase particles.” Example being Ferdinand de Lesseps, the French diplomat, who, according to Merriam Webster’s Manual for Writer’s and Editors should be sorted under Lesseps not under the particle de. *Note, Luann’s ex-husband, whose name she bears, is a direct descendant of the French diplomat Ferdinand de Lesseps. Thirdly, Luann de Lesseps is of French, Canadian and Algonquin ancestry and she was born in America, so that brings us to the sorting by “custom of one’s nationality”. So what is the custom of American sorting? There are so many other American references like International Federation of Library Associations and Institutions (page 68 & 69 of publication, but page 40 of PDF) and the Merriam Webster’s reference I cited earlier and many others that also support sorting by the surname and not by the particle in American reference and catalogue. I don’t want to clutter this area up with a massive amount of links but I will if asked or if necessary. Let me also add, that indexing members of a family bearing the same name that all have different nationalities not only sounds absurd but extremely complicated, unnecessarily tedious and would open up a world of problems in other cases, which is maybe why most indexing instructional references prefers sorting by traditional cultural usage. How would one know to look up Luann by the particle and her ex-husband by the surname? In this particular case, Luann is listed and mentioned along with several other socialites on the The Real Housewives of New York page so making this determination is important for alphabetization purposes. Lastly, WP:MCSTJR also states, “American, Australian, Canadian, and English names generally sort on the prefix, regardless of capitalization.” Her name is neither American, Australian, Canadian or English, as we’ve already deciphered that it is indeed a French name. What this seems to boil down to is does Wikipedia want to adhere to American cataloging norms and customs and index as Lesseps, Luann de or under a different set of indexing rules yet to be established? AnAudLife (talk) 17:19, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
- Comment: I am not convinced that we have established that de Lesseps is a "French name". How is "French name" defined in this context? Is du Plessis a French name or a South African name? Most of the people I know with the name are from families which immigrated over a century ago and cannot speak French at all. Is van der Merwe South African or Dutch? At which point does a name become Australian? Are the names that came over with William the Conqueror now English? · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 07:09, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
- The name de Lesseps in this particular case: Luann's ex-husband is a direct descendant of the French diplomat Ferdinand de Lesseps (who developed the Suez Canal), can be traced back to France as far back as the 14th century, prior to that some of his ancestors, it is believed, came from Spain, see Wikipedia. Which takes us back to WP:MCSTJR, “Generally, Dutch, French, German, Italian, Portuguese, and Spanish names do not include lowercase particles in sorting, but do include uppercase particles.”AnAudLife (talk) 14:01, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
- Not quite my point. Does the MOS explain how a name is allocated to a nationality? If it does I have missed it. Two immediately obvious possibilities are that the person with the name is French (either a national of France, or French speaking), or the name has a French origin, which in this case is not disputed. In the case of American and Australian names, the second option is unlikely, as most Australian and American names originated in other countries, including France. For consistency we must consider the possibility that the first option was intended, but it remains unclear. The context of MOS suggests that the first possibility may have been intended, so there is a need to know how a "French name" is defined in this context. · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 14:33, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
- Exactly. Unless we have data that supports the notion that the first person with the surname de Lesseps had adopted or were given the surname while under French jurisdiction, the exact origin of the name is not and will never be fully known. The reason it’s colloquially known as a “French name” is because the people known as having the name are/were French nationals. KyleJoantalk 21:54, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
- @Pbsouthwood: Some would argue that we're all descendants of Adam and Eve who had no surname that anyone knows of. Some could also argue that we all evolved from apes who had no names at all. At some point we have to draw an intelligent conclusion. As I stated previously, de Lesseps can be traced back to France as far back as the 14th century, that is a far cry from the one century you spoke of when referring to people you personally know with a French surname. And since the 14th century is as far back as we can go with this surname, then that should be the accepted origin until we learn otherwise. AnAudLife (talk) 22:59, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
- I am clearly not getting my point through, so will try again. I do not think that the origin of the name is what WP:MCSTJR refers to in
American, Australian, Canadian, and English names generally sort on the prefix, regardless of capitalization. However, there are discrepancies between different sources on whether to sort on the prefix or not
. I think that it is the nationality of the person with the name. I accept that this could be clearer, and it is possible that the intention of the person who wrote the guidance may have differed from my interpretation, but until someone comes up with a reasonably plausible explanation of what constitutes an "American, Australian, Canadian, or English name" other than the name of an American, Australian,Canadian or English national, I consider the name should be sorted on prefix. Whether the first person to bear the name on record was French by nationality or home language, or whether the first instance of the name on record was written in France or elsewhere is to my mind not relevant. · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 04:38, 19 September 2019 (UTC)- Okay, obviously there are different interpretations here of the sentence "American, Australian, Canadian, and English names generally sort on the prefix, regardless of capitalization. However, there are discrepancies between different sources on whether to sort on the prefix or not" in WP:MCSTJR. I still believe the intention is to refer to NAMES, it even says names, not meaning the nationality of the individual, but the names. WP:NAMESORT is written in great detail about sorting many different surnames and it covers a lot of name origins; Arabic, Chinese, Icelandic, Nobles, Spanish, French, Jewish, etc., and then it covers American, Australian, Canadian and English in the sentence we're discussing. I can't imagine the nightmare of indexing based upon where someone was born and I sincerely doubt the author meant it that way. Additionally, The New York Times article that is being referenced, is being completely misconstrued. Luann de Lesseps is talking about how on the show she had chastised Bethenny Frankel for introducing her as "Luann" instead of "Mrs. de Lesseps" to a driver. She references it being "a level of respect", she believes it's proper manners to not introduce someone by the first name only (I watched the episode). Both Luann and Alexandre refer to themselves as Mr. or Mrs. de Lesseps, they don't drop the "de" when being introduced or spoken to. This has nothing to do with how she prefers to be indexed and I can't understand why anyone would draw that conclusion from this article. AnAudLife (talk) 05:50, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
- "American, Australian, Canadian, and English names" is obviously referring to the names of people from those countries. It is saying that for native English speakers names such as "van der Waals" or "de la Mer" sort under V and D respectively, regardless of how such names would be sorted in the source language. --Khajidha (talk) 03:18, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
- PS - the idea of indexing by what language a name derives from is what causes my nightmares. If a person is named "Pierre de la Whatever", then his personal name is "Pierre" and the rest is his surname and would be indexed under "D". That is the only thing that makes sense to me. --Khajidha (talk) 16:22, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
- Okay, obviously there are different interpretations here of the sentence "American, Australian, Canadian, and English names generally sort on the prefix, regardless of capitalization. However, there are discrepancies between different sources on whether to sort on the prefix or not" in WP:MCSTJR. I still believe the intention is to refer to NAMES, it even says names, not meaning the nationality of the individual, but the names. WP:NAMESORT is written in great detail about sorting many different surnames and it covers a lot of name origins; Arabic, Chinese, Icelandic, Nobles, Spanish, French, Jewish, etc., and then it covers American, Australian, Canadian and English in the sentence we're discussing. I can't imagine the nightmare of indexing based upon where someone was born and I sincerely doubt the author meant it that way. Additionally, The New York Times article that is being referenced, is being completely misconstrued. Luann de Lesseps is talking about how on the show she had chastised Bethenny Frankel for introducing her as "Luann" instead of "Mrs. de Lesseps" to a driver. She references it being "a level of respect", she believes it's proper manners to not introduce someone by the first name only (I watched the episode). Both Luann and Alexandre refer to themselves as Mr. or Mrs. de Lesseps, they don't drop the "de" when being introduced or spoken to. This has nothing to do with how she prefers to be indexed and I can't understand why anyone would draw that conclusion from this article. AnAudLife (talk) 05:50, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
- I am clearly not getting my point through, so will try again. I do not think that the origin of the name is what WP:MCSTJR refers to in
- @Pbsouthwood: Some would argue that we're all descendants of Adam and Eve who had no surname that anyone knows of. Some could also argue that we all evolved from apes who had no names at all. At some point we have to draw an intelligent conclusion. As I stated previously, de Lesseps can be traced back to France as far back as the 14th century, that is a far cry from the one century you spoke of when referring to people you personally know with a French surname. And since the 14th century is as far back as we can go with this surname, then that should be the accepted origin until we learn otherwise. AnAudLife (talk) 22:59, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
- Exactly. Unless we have data that supports the notion that the first person with the surname de Lesseps had adopted or were given the surname while under French jurisdiction, the exact origin of the name is not and will never be fully known. The reason it’s colloquially known as a “French name” is because the people known as having the name are/were French nationals. KyleJoantalk 21:54, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
- Not quite my point. Does the MOS explain how a name is allocated to a nationality? If it does I have missed it. Two immediately obvious possibilities are that the person with the name is French (either a national of France, or French speaking), or the name has a French origin, which in this case is not disputed. In the case of American and Australian names, the second option is unlikely, as most Australian and American names originated in other countries, including France. For consistency we must consider the possibility that the first option was intended, but it remains unclear. The context of MOS suggests that the first possibility may have been intended, so there is a need to know how a "French name" is defined in this context. · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 14:33, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
- The name de Lesseps in this particular case: Luann's ex-husband is a direct descendant of the French diplomat Ferdinand de Lesseps (who developed the Suez Canal), can be traced back to France as far back as the 14th century, prior to that some of his ancestors, it is believed, came from Spain, see Wikipedia. Which takes us back to WP:MCSTJR, “Generally, Dutch, French, German, Italian, Portuguese, and Spanish names do not include lowercase particles in sorting, but do include uppercase particles.”AnAudLife (talk) 14:01, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
- To ensure all of the information is presented, according to this article containing legal documents, the name is legally spelled as one name under the United States jurisdiction (i.e. DeLesseps), which differs from the spelling used in her common name (i.e. de Lesseps). KyleJoantalk 04:24, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
- Hollywood Life? I hardly think that is a reputable source for anything whatsoever. This dispute was never about the spelling of her name, it’s well established that it is “de Lesseps” AnAudLife (talk) 05:35, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, HollywoodLife.com, owned by Penske Media Corporation (PMC), is an unreputable source in the vein of Variety, Rolling Stone, WWD, Deadline Hollywood, BGR, and others, all owned by PMC.
This dispute was never about the spelling of her name, it’s well established that it is “de Lesseps”
– I guess the legal documents are wrong, then. KyleJoantalk 05:43, 19 October 2019 (UTC)- I guess we should capitalize it all as well, just like in those “legal docs” that are allegedly the real deal. Or maybe, we should go with how she spells her name everywhere else, which is “de Lesseps”, just like her ex-husband does and their 2 children do. The spelling, the capitalization and the space on “de Lesseps” has NEVER been disputed by anyone, even you, until now. AnAudLife (talk) 05:52, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not following. Are you still suggesting that the source is not credible or are you suggesting that the spelling of her name under US jurisdiction–regardless of whether it is spelled DELESSEPS, DeLesseps, or Delesseps–does not play a part in sorting her common name? The two assertions cannot both be true. I'm merely saying that maybe some users will consider that distinction a factor in figuring out how to appropriately sort the common name, indubitably spelled de Lesseps. KyleJoantalk 18:12, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- I am saying that this dispute has been going on for MONTHS and you're just now suggesting there is no space between "de" and "Lesseps"??????? That was never once brought up by you during our MANY , many, many discussions. This so called alleged "legal document" photo, shared by a gossip tabloid, is the only thing in existence which blends the two. The show which Luann de Lesseps has been on for many years, credits her as Luann de Lesseps, small "d", space, capital "L" as does every reputable source available to the public. So am I to understand that you are now asserting an entirely different viewpoint on this issue??? AnAudLife (talk) 18:30, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- You do realize the spelling and capitalization of one's common name can differ from that of their legal name? Yes, we are sorting her common name, but I'm presenting the legal spelling of it to make sure when one makes a statement regarding sorting that they have all of the information. Also, I've cited the legal document before as one of the bases of my position, so please refer to that so I don't have to keep repeating myself.
This so called alleged "legal document" photo, shared by a gossip tabloid, is the only thing in existence which blends the two.
Again, are you still contending that the source is unreliable? If so, state it and present your reasoning so we can understand. KyleJoantalk 18:57, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- You do realize the spelling and capitalization of one's common name can differ from that of their legal name? Yes, we are sorting her common name, but I'm presenting the legal spelling of it to make sure when one makes a statement regarding sorting that they have all of the information. Also, I've cited the legal document before as one of the bases of my position, so please refer to that so I don't have to keep repeating myself.
- I am saying that this dispute has been going on for MONTHS and you're just now suggesting there is no space between "de" and "Lesseps"??????? That was never once brought up by you during our MANY , many, many discussions. This so called alleged "legal document" photo, shared by a gossip tabloid, is the only thing in existence which blends the two. The show which Luann de Lesseps has been on for many years, credits her as Luann de Lesseps, small "d", space, capital "L" as does every reputable source available to the public. So am I to understand that you are now asserting an entirely different viewpoint on this issue??? AnAudLife (talk) 18:30, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not following. Are you still suggesting that the source is not credible or are you suggesting that the spelling of her name under US jurisdiction–regardless of whether it is spelled DELESSEPS, DeLesseps, or Delesseps–does not play a part in sorting her common name? The two assertions cannot both be true. I'm merely saying that maybe some users will consider that distinction a factor in figuring out how to appropriately sort the common name, indubitably spelled de Lesseps. KyleJoantalk 18:12, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- I guess we should capitalize it all as well, just like in those “legal docs” that are allegedly the real deal. Or maybe, we should go with how she spells her name everywhere else, which is “de Lesseps”, just like her ex-husband does and their 2 children do. The spelling, the capitalization and the space on “de Lesseps” has NEVER been disputed by anyone, even you, until now. AnAudLife (talk) 05:52, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, HollywoodLife.com, owned by Penske Media Corporation (PMC), is an unreputable source in the vein of Variety, Rolling Stone, WWD, Deadline Hollywood, BGR, and others, all owned by PMC.
- Hollywood Life? I hardly think that is a reputable source for anything whatsoever. This dispute was never about the spelling of her name, it’s well established that it is “de Lesseps” AnAudLife (talk) 05:35, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
I think that your assumption that the VERY WELL KNOWN name, "de Lesseps", dating back centuries, is spelled "Delesseps" based on one alleged photo shared by a tabloid rag is a huge reach. More importantly, this new argument of yours has no real bearing on this discussion, as to how it is sorted. AnAudLife (talk) 19:27, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- There's a redundant discussion open at Talk:The Real Housewives of New York City. In that particular case, this comment by someone else is obviously correct: "Luann de Lesseps, an American, married a Frenchman, Alexandre de Lesseps. He is French, his name is French therefore so is Luann's." It's not the Anglicized name "De Lesseps" (usually alphabetized under "D"), it's the French name "de Lesseps" (alphabetized under "L"). Similarly, if Emma Vandenberg was born Emma Shtoop in the Netherlands and married an American named Jim-Bob Vandenberg, she's alphabetized as Vandenberg, Emma, regardless of the fact that her next door neighbor growing up in Amsterdam was Jan van den Berg, alphabetized under B. This is about languages and conventions within them (more precisely, the average conventions of publishers who focus on works in that language, as encapsulated in the majority of style guides and other reliable sources on what to do in those particular languages) – not where a specific individual was born. Anyway, I've referred parties at that talk page to this talk page, since there's this open RfC on it. — AReaderOutThataway t/c 18:18, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- I've closed that redundant thread per WP:MULTI, and used
{{Moved discussion to}}
to soft-redirect people to this RfC. Someone had already removed the RfC tag from the one over there. @KyleJoan, Pbsouthwood, Almond Plate, and AnAudLife: pinging previous commenters at that thread so they can comment here or (if they already did) make sure their views in both RfCs are consistent, etc. — AReaderOutThataway t/c 18:37, 22 October 2019 (UTC)- Do you believe the sorting of the common name (i.e., Luann de Lesseps) is entirely unaffected by the legal spelling and capitalization of the name (i.e., Luann Delesseps or Luann DeLesseps)? KyleJoantalk 18:57, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- I've closed that redundant thread per WP:MULTI, and used
(Withdrawn) RFC on the use of the term "conspiracy theory"
Withdrawn: there is a clear consensus to not discuss this here. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:41, 9 October 2019 (UTC) | ||
---|---|---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||
Should the phrase "conspiracy theory" be broadly defined or narrowly defined? --Guy Macon (talk) 15:46, 7 October 2019 (UTC) Closing CommentsTo be filled in by an uninvolved and neutral closer. Do not post here. NoteThis RfC excludes any use of Conspiracy theory (legal term), which has a well-defined and specific meaning that is clearly not the same as common usage. BackgroundThere are two common opinions regarding what we should call a conspiracy theory. Disagreement about which definition to use is usually limited to describing claims made by politicians about their political opponents. Broad definition This view holds that any time someone expresses the opinion that a conspiracy exists, we should call it a "conspiracy theory", and that it does not matter whether there is strong evidence of an actual conspiracy or zero evidence of an actual conspiracy. In other words, all theories that there has been a conspiracy are "conspiracy theories". Narrow definition This view holds that there is a distinction in connotation between the highly perjoritve term "conspiracy theory" and less negative phrases such as "alleged conspiracy" and that in common usage "conspiracy theory" has a specific meaning of a theory that is considered untrue or outlandish. In other words, not all theories that there has been a conspiracy are "conspiracy theories".
Ground RulesAs always with RfCs, the quality of your argument counts more than the support counts. A compelling policy-based argument is worth more than multiple "I like it" / "I hate it" comments. If this RfC becomes too large, it will be moved to a sub-page and a link left here. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:46, 7 October 2019 (UTC) Support narrow definition: not all theories that there has been a conspiracy are "conspiracy theories"
Support broad definition: all theories that there has been a conspiracy are "conspiracy theories"
Other (be specific)
Threaded Discussion
|
Cisgender, yea or nay?
Is it appropriate to use the term cisgender in the article of someone who objects to that term, e.g. to say that they advocate for the rights of cisgender women? Should we avoid it because they don't like it? Should we use it because it's the accepted terminology? Vashti (talk) 15:10, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- Why not just say that they advocate for the rights of women? Is the issue that the person in question does not include trans women in their conception of women? If so, then simply say so. --Khajidha (talk) 17:11, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- PS - you could (in addition to the ideas above) also state that she objects to the usage of the term "cisgender". --Khajidha (talk) 17:25, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- I've never understood this whole sis gender thing. Brothers are male and sisters are female. What's the problem? EEng 17:46, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- I absolutely support that the transgender women should be talked about as contrasting with cisgender women, not with real women or biological women. Georgia guy (talk) 17:55, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- Is there a Venn diagram or something explaining all this? EEng 17:57, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- @EEng: try gender identity or cisgender. Let me know if you want the short "twitter version" of it. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:08, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- EEng, I've just spent the last 20 minutes trying to put this into a set theory expression and now I'm confused. SITH (talk) 10:50, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- @StraussInTheHouse and EEng: Programming language would likely be easier.
#include <iostream> using namespace std; int main() { string SexAssignment = ""; string GenderIdentity = ""; string SexAssignment = ""; bool Cisgender = ; cout << "What genital structure did the person as a newborn appear to have?"; cin >> Genitals; SexAssignment = (Genitals=="PENIS") ? "MALE" : "FEMALE"; cout << "What is the gender identity of the person?" cin >> GenderIdentity; if (GenderIdentity == "Man" && SexAssignment == "MALE") { Cisgender = true; } else if (GenderIdentity == "Woman" && SexAssignment == "FEMALE") { Cisgender = true; } else { Cisgender = false; } if (Cisgender == true) { cout << "This person is cisgender"; } else { cout << "This person is transgender" } return 0; }
- EvergreenFir (talk) 16:38, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- I think we need a language supporting multivalued/fuzzy logic. EEng 20:18, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- Not disagreeing with you there, but the point is that the person in question did not "advocate for cisgender women", but explicitly opposed the rights of transgender women. --Khajidha (talk) 17:59, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- So say that. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 19:51, 8 October 2019 (UTC)- Exactly. This discussion boils down to "should we blow a hole in WP:NOR just to make far-left transgender activists happy?" If reliable and independent sources say someone is a women's rights activist who is hostile to tranwomen being included (i.e., is an outspoken TERF), then we say that. If those sources (not unreliable ones like random blogs) describe the person as a "cisgender rights advocate" (has any reliable source ever used that phrase?), then we'd say that. We'd say both, with sufficient attribution for clarity, if the RS are in disagreement. We follow the sources. We also have a principle that we don't label people (especially BLPs) with terms they would disagree with on principle, without sourcing, attribution, and qualification. If the subject is sourceably known to object to the neologism cisgender, then we'd say that, too. PS: Stuff like this has to stop. WP is not a playground for gender studies students nor a platform for language reform advocacy. WP is written in contemporary, mainstream, formal English, no matter how much someone doesn't like contemporary, mainstream, formal English.
Short version: WP:Use common sense and WP:Don't be a fanatic.
2601:643:867F:5370:CDB0:4476:46F5:1603 (talk) 17:29, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
- Exactly. This discussion boils down to "should we blow a hole in WP:NOR just to make far-left transgender activists happy?" If reliable and independent sources say someone is a women's rights activist who is hostile to tranwomen being included (i.e., is an outspoken TERF), then we say that. If those sources (not unreliable ones like random blogs) describe the person as a "cisgender rights advocate" (has any reliable source ever used that phrase?), then we'd say that. We'd say both, with sufficient attribution for clarity, if the RS are in disagreement. We follow the sources. We also have a principle that we don't label people (especially BLPs) with terms they would disagree with on principle, without sourcing, attribution, and qualification. If the subject is sourceably known to object to the neologism cisgender, then we'd say that, too. PS: Stuff like this has to stop. WP is not a playground for gender studies students nor a platform for language reform advocacy. WP is written in contemporary, mainstream, formal English, no matter how much someone doesn't like contemporary, mainstream, formal English.
- So say that. --Ahecht (TALK
- Is there a Venn diagram or something explaining all this? EEng 17:57, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- How do reliable sources describe this person’s activism? We should follow the sources, an neither insert nor omit based on our own opinions. Blueboar (talk) 18:00, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- Agree. Use what sources use. Additionally, there is nothing wrong with the term "cisgender" and its use should not really be a problem. If, in this case, it is inaccurate, then that is an issue. If the person in question just says something akin to "I support women, and transgender women aren't women, so I don't think cisgender is necessary", well that's their personal opinion and not reflective of the nomenclature. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:10, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- I think this would be easier to answer if we knew the exact sentence being argued over and what the source for that sentence says. --Khajidha (talk) 18:24, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- The article is Magdalen Berns and the question in context is the lede sentence that now reads "women's rights on the basis of sex" - which is anti-trans in-language in itself. It's a curious case where, because she has just died, there are a lot of glowing obituaries, a few past casual mentions, and no other sources at all. The sentence was changed to "cisgender women's rights" in this diff; it was changed back in this diff. This is the source; it says "she repeatedly clashed with LGBT and women’s groups over her determined defence of women’s sex-based rights and the rights of lesbians to assert their sexuality in the face of relentless demands to redefine sex as gender." Vashti (talk) 19:42, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- I would suggest something like: "Magdalen Berns (6 May 1983 – 13 September 2019)[2][3] was a British software developer and YouTuber. Berns, a lesbian radical feminist, came to prominence as a result of a series of YouTube vlogs focusing on lesbian politics and free speech. Her views were criticised by many due to her positions on the basis of sex and the gender identity debate, with some describing them as anti-trans." --Khajidha (talk) 19:49, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- "Women's rights on the basis of sex" is standard legal language. See On the Basis of Sex. -Pine457 (talk) 19:53, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- However, naked in the lede like that, it's obscure - it has in-group meaning to y'all that it does not have to the rest of us. Vashti (talk) 20:02, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- It has the same meaning to anyone who is aware of sex and gender distinction in modern English usage. -Pine457 (talk) 20:32, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- No. "Sex not gender" is a key tenet of the anti-trans community, "women's sex-based rights" is a key phrase, and so "on the basis of sex" is acting as a dogwhistle here. Vashti (talk) 20:38, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- It's a bullhorn, not a dogwhistle. These are attempts to communicate very clearly exactly what we're talking about: the idea that certain laws were written to protect females. Whether law in the future will hold that a sex-based or gender-identity-based definition shall prevail, or even sometimes one and sometimes the other, is an unsettled question. If you think the article would benefit from a link to sex and gender distinction, go ahead and include it. -Pine457 (talk) 20:51, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- What makes it a dogwhistle in particular is that it's used to make your prejudice against trans people tacitly understood, and to appeal to that prejudice in others. It's as entirely unsuitable in Wikipedia's voice as something like "race realism" would be. Vashti (talk) 20:57, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- Excuse me, I have no prejudice against trans people. The question of whether women's rights shall refer to a sex-based definition or a gender-identity-based definition is not settled law, and we shouldn't pretend otherwise. As The Guardian put it,
Women’s oppression by men has a physical basis, and to deny the relevance of biology when considering sexual inequality is a mistake
andThis is a complex issue that society needs to consider thoughtfully.
It's not a reason to hurl insults at each other. - If you believe that the article would benefit from a link to sex and gender distinction, go ahead and include it, but this isn't secret prejudicial language. It is relatively simple academic language, with a standard usage since the 1960s. -Pine457 (talk) 21:16, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- It's not an insult, but a statement of fact; take "your" as a plural if you like. It remains the case that this language is a dogwhistle for your community, as I'm not the first to have noticed. That said, I'll defer to the judgement of others on this. Vashti (talk) 21:25, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- It is not a "statement of fact" that people who believe in sex-based rights are prejudiced against trans people. Many trans people, for example, believe that transwomen should not be competing in women's sports. These are complex issues not easily reduced to "you're either for us or against us" reasoning. Once again, the phrasing is intended a bullhorn. There's nothing secret about its meaning, it's very simple, the idea is that some rights and protections are based on sex. Ask a bystander what "sex-based rights" would mean and I'll bet they can explain it. -Pine457 (talk) 21:55, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- I have absolutely zero interest in debating trans rights with you. We're here to build an encyclopaedia, and don't need to get outside the issue of language - which the mention of prejudice was there to explain. Vashti (talk) 22:04, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not debating what the rights should be. I'm pointing out that your claim, that believing in sex-based rights equates to prejudice against trans people, is a non sequitur. -Pine457 (talk) 01:54, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- It's not the belief in sex-based rights that equates to prejudice, but membership in the anti-trans community to which Magdalen belonged, and to which that dogwhistle belongs, and from which canvassed IP accounts and new editors have flocked. Vashti (talk) 07:42, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- "
and from which canvassed IP accounts and new editors have flocked
." And your evidence of this conspiracy is ....? Please spare us the unsubstantiated harebrained suspicions. Pyxis Solitary (yak) 15:27, 9 October 2019 (UTC) - That's circular reasoning: they're prejudiced because they're prejudiced. For comparison, some US liberals express prejudice against people in rural areas (and some vice versa), but being a liberal is not itself evidence of such prejudice. While I would agree that certain individuals express prejudicial viewpoints, involvement in gender-critical feminism is not sufficient to ascribe prejudice to someone who does not express prejudice. Most of us believe that adults should be allowed to do what they want with their bodies, and that people should not be required to conform to sex stereotypes to be afforded the same legal protections as those who do conform. I think this article in the New Yorker is a fair treatment of the issues: What Is a Woman? The dispute between radical feminism and transgenderism. -Pine457 (talk) 17:53, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- "
- It's not the belief in sex-based rights that equates to prejudice, but membership in the anti-trans community to which Magdalen belonged, and to which that dogwhistle belongs, and from which canvassed IP accounts and new editors have flocked. Vashti (talk) 07:42, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not debating what the rights should be. I'm pointing out that your claim, that believing in sex-based rights equates to prejudice against trans people, is a non sequitur. -Pine457 (talk) 01:54, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- I have absolutely zero interest in debating trans rights with you. We're here to build an encyclopaedia, and don't need to get outside the issue of language - which the mention of prejudice was there to explain. Vashti (talk) 22:04, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- It is not a "statement of fact" that people who believe in sex-based rights are prejudiced against trans people. Many trans people, for example, believe that transwomen should not be competing in women's sports. These are complex issues not easily reduced to "you're either for us or against us" reasoning. Once again, the phrasing is intended a bullhorn. There's nothing secret about its meaning, it's very simple, the idea is that some rights and protections are based on sex. Ask a bystander what "sex-based rights" would mean and I'll bet they can explain it. -Pine457 (talk) 21:55, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- It's not an insult, but a statement of fact; take "your" as a plural if you like. It remains the case that this language is a dogwhistle for your community, as I'm not the first to have noticed. That said, I'll defer to the judgement of others on this. Vashti (talk) 21:25, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- Excuse me, I have no prejudice against trans people. The question of whether women's rights shall refer to a sex-based definition or a gender-identity-based definition is not settled law, and we shouldn't pretend otherwise. As The Guardian put it,
- What makes it a dogwhistle in particular is that it's used to make your prejudice against trans people tacitly understood, and to appeal to that prejudice in others. It's as entirely unsuitable in Wikipedia's voice as something like "race realism" would be. Vashti (talk) 20:57, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- It's a bullhorn, not a dogwhistle. These are attempts to communicate very clearly exactly what we're talking about: the idea that certain laws were written to protect females. Whether law in the future will hold that a sex-based or gender-identity-based definition shall prevail, or even sometimes one and sometimes the other, is an unsettled question. If you think the article would benefit from a link to sex and gender distinction, go ahead and include it. -Pine457 (talk) 20:51, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- No. "Sex not gender" is a key tenet of the anti-trans community, "women's sex-based rights" is a key phrase, and so "on the basis of sex" is acting as a dogwhistle here. Vashti (talk) 20:38, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- It has the same meaning to anyone who is aware of sex and gender distinction in modern English usage. -Pine457 (talk) 20:32, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- However, naked in the lede like that, it's obscure - it has in-group meaning to y'all that it does not have to the rest of us. Vashti (talk) 20:02, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- The article is Magdalen Berns and the question in context is the lede sentence that now reads "women's rights on the basis of sex" - which is anti-trans in-language in itself. It's a curious case where, because she has just died, there are a lot of glowing obituaries, a few past casual mentions, and no other sources at all. The sentence was changed to "cisgender women's rights" in this diff; it was changed back in this diff. This is the source; it says "she repeatedly clashed with LGBT and women’s groups over her determined defence of women’s sex-based rights and the rights of lesbians to assert their sexuality in the face of relentless demands to redefine sex as gender." Vashti (talk) 19:42, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- I think this would be easier to answer if we knew the exact sentence being argued over and what the source for that sentence says. --Khajidha (talk) 18:24, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- Agree. Use what sources use. Additionally, there is nothing wrong with the term "cisgender" and its use should not really be a problem. If, in this case, it is inaccurate, then that is an issue. If the person in question just says something akin to "I support women, and transgender women aren't women, so I don't think cisgender is necessary", well that's their personal opinion and not reflective of the nomenclature. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:10, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- It should be used based on the sources. I don't think "cisgender" is inherently offensive or insulting or anything, but in a specific context it can have implications that would need to be properly cited (by having a source that uses the word) - saying that eg. someone advocates for the rights of cisgender women implies that they don't advocate for the rights of other women, which we'd obviously need a source for. --Aquillion (talk) 20:26, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think we'll have trouble finding sources to the effect that Magdalen didn't advocate for the rights of trans women. A source that says she advocated for cis women's rights will be harder, since the sources are one-sided. Vashti (talk) 20:42, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- If sources are “one sided”, then so be it... we can not go beyond what sources say. Doing so would violate our WP:No original research policy. Blueboar (talk) 21:37, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- Indeed. It's unfortunate in this case. Vashti (talk) 21:39, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- If sources are “one sided”, then so be it... we can not go beyond what sources say. Doing so would violate our WP:No original research policy. Blueboar (talk) 21:37, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think we'll have trouble finding sources to the effect that Magdalen didn't advocate for the rights of trans women. A source that says she advocated for cis women's rights will be harder, since the sources are one-sided. Vashti (talk) 20:42, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose any proposals as unnecessary: here goes...
- P1) We're building an encyclopedia.
- P2) An encyclopedia describes subjects using the terminology used by reliable sources.
- __________
- C1) If a critical mass of reliable sources describe something as "cisgender women's activism" then we describe it as that.
- C2) If a critical mass of reliable sources describe something as "women's activism" then we describe it as that.
- Avoid instruction creep. This debate doesn't need to happen. SITH (talk) 10:50, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- And if there's no critical mass of reliable sources? Vashti (talk) 11:15, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- Then look for more sources. Given that this person died recently, you may need to WAIT until more sources are written. Blueboar (talk) 11:49, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- And if there's no critical mass of reliable sources? Vashti (talk) 11:15, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
Again this does not seem an MOS question as much as a verification one. If someone did not use a word we cannot say they did.Slatersteven (talk) 13:39, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- Don't put words in people's mouths, even dead ones. If a biographical subject never used the term "cisgender" to describe her/himself -- neither can Wikipedia. If a biographical subject objected to the word "cisgender" being applied to her/him -- Wikipedia cannot rewrite history and create the idea that she/he did. Whatever terminology may be employed by sources, the subject's personal truth should be noted in the article.
(On a personal note ... the use of "cisgender" to describe biological males and females is politically correct dogma. Not everyone "in the life" bows to the PC jackboot.) Pyxis Solitary (yak) 14:51, 9 October 2019 (UTC)- I disagree. We certainly can't claim that they said something they didn't, but if reliable sources describe someone as anti-trans then we should say so, even if they insist that they are "real woman positive" or some such twaddle. A subject doesn't have to agree with a negative characterization for it to be included; it merely has to be adequately sourced. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:17, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- David is correct. Wikipedia primarily follows what reliable secondary sources (sources that are independent of the subject) say about our subjects... not what the subjects say about themselves (although that can be mentioned in passing), and we definitely do not insert our own opinions. Blueboar (talk) 17:35, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- If reliable sources say someone's anti-trans we can include that, but that's a different matter than using the controversial neologism of cisgender to describe an individual who rejects the term. The former may be relevant, even if disputed, to understand someone's views. The latter is not. -Pine457 (talk) 17:53, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- I concur with David Eppstein here. And Merriam-Webster attests cisgender in its current meaning as dating back to at least 1994, so it is not a neologism. XOR'easter (talk) 18:04, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- Oh you children... for some of us, anything coined after 1960 is a neologism. Blueboar (talk) 18:22, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with Blueboar. Everything after the 1960s is PC rubbish and newfangled shenanigans. We should capitalize Internet and use two spaces after full stops. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:57, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- Oh you children... for some of us, anything coined after 1960 is a neologism. Blueboar (talk) 18:22, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- We're unlikely to find anything about her that uses the term. She presented herself as a women's rights advocate but defined women to exclude trans women (at least as regards certain rights and protections). Her critics focused on this exclusion. So, she could not really be described as "pro-cisgender" in any meaningful sense. --Khajidha (talk) 18:26, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- That wording, "She presented herself as a women's rights advocate but defined women to exclude trans women", looks clear and jargon-free to me. Can we find sufficient sources to support it? —David Eppstein (talk) 20:01, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
Works for me EvergreenFir (talk) 20:06, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- "Presented herself" sounds like a POV synthesis unless sources support it. Vashti (talk) 20:17, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- I thought my previous attempt was better?: "Magdalen Berns (6 May 1983 – 13 September 2019)[2][3] was a British software developer and YouTuber. Berns, a lesbian radical feminist, came to prominence as a result of a series of YouTube vlogs focusing on lesbian politics and free speech. Her views were criticised by many due to her positions on the basis of sex and the gender identity debate, with some describing them as anti-trans." --Khajidha (talk) 20:32, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- "Her positions...with some describing them as anti-trans" is both vague (what were those positions) and opinion-based (it is centered around whether other people thought about her positions as positive or negative rather than what those positions actually were). "...defined women to exclude trans women", in contrast, both explicitly and specifically states her positions and avoids expressing an opinion over the validity or political correctness of those positions. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:48, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- I think either way the article would need to mention that she was seen as anti-trans. I don't see much indication that she was deeply involved in feminist advocacy beyond anti-trans and anti-sex worker advocacy. The only mention I've been able to find of her in a high-quality source is this Snopes article, which describes her as a youtuber who is characterized as holding anti-trans views. I don't see much indication that she was known for her advocacy for women in general. Nblund talk 20:39, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- "Her positions...with some describing them as anti-trans" is both vague (what were those positions) and opinion-based (it is centered around whether other people thought about her positions as positive or negative rather than what those positions actually were). "...defined women to exclude trans women", in contrast, both explicitly and specifically states her positions and avoids expressing an opinion over the validity or political correctness of those positions. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:48, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- I thought my previous attempt was better?: "Magdalen Berns (6 May 1983 – 13 September 2019)[2][3] was a British software developer and YouTuber. Berns, a lesbian radical feminist, came to prominence as a result of a series of YouTube vlogs focusing on lesbian politics and free speech. Her views were criticised by many due to her positions on the basis of sex and the gender identity debate, with some describing them as anti-trans." --Khajidha (talk) 20:32, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- I would go with "She presented herself as a women's rights advocate but defined women to exclude trans women".Slatersteven (talk) 08:02, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- That wording, "She presented herself as a women's rights advocate but defined women to exclude trans women", looks clear and jargon-free to me. Can we find sufficient sources to support it? —David Eppstein (talk) 20:01, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- How her activism is described should have nothing to do with her personal preferences on terminology. Just describe it neutrally in accordance with the sources. If "cisgender" is the most accurate word to use, use it. Kaldari (talk) 23:31, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
General discussion of the term cisgender
- This discussion has nothing to do with describing a subject as anti-trans. This discussion is about applying the term "cisgender" in the description of a subject when that subject rejected the label "cisgender" and refused to apply it to her/himself, or anyone else.
C-i-s-g-e-n-d-e-r.
"twaddle
" in Wikipedia is when editors go off-track discussing something else instead of the topic. Pyxis Solitary (yak) 08:29, 10 October 2019 (UTC)- What exactly is the sentence under debate? Much will depend on that. And opposition to the label "cisgender" is often correlated with anti-trans positions, so the situation is not as clear cut as you are trying to make it.--Khajidha (talk) 09:47, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- I refer you to the reason for this discussion:
"Is it appropriate to use the term cisgender in the article of someone who objects to that term, e.g. to say that they advocate for the rights of cisgender women? Should we avoid it because they don't like it? Should we use it because it's the accepted terminology?
"
What is complicated about this? Pyxis Solitary (yak) 09:57, 10 October 2019 (UTC)- The question you cite is not about describing Magdalen as cis, but her activism as being in favour of cis women. That's why editors are presenting alternatives that don't use the word "cisgender", such as "she advocated for women's rights but defined women to exclude trans women". It's not "twaddle". I agree that opposition to the word "cisgender" goes hand-in-hand with anti-trans positions. Vashti (talk) 10:06, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- "
the word "cisgender" goes hand-in-hand with anti-trans positions
". This is a myopic generalization. Someone who repudiates the label "cisgender" is not automatically anti-transgender.
Let me put it this way: I, the real life person behind the name Pyxis Solitary, reject the term cisgender. I have refused to use it since the day, over 20 years ago, that I found out what it meant. I don't endorse it in conversations and I will correct anyone who refers to me as a cisgender woman. I have a close friend who is a trans man. I participate in a group that includes transsexual women. Now ... am I anti-trans? Pyxis Solitary (yak) 10:34, 10 October 2019 (UTC)- On this, it's probably instructive to cite Feminist Wiki. Feminist Wiki is actually an anti-trans wiki; it was created by anti-trans activist Penny White and advertised at reddit on anti-trans sub /r/GenderCritical. Here's an organising article for it which describes its intent in detail and states "Let me tell you that [trans rights activists]s and advocates of the sex industry (aka rape industry) have already shown themselves to be very afraid of the FeministWiki. Why? Because it offers cold hard truth in a no fucks given tone (without getting ranty) with citations to back it up, and does so boldly under the highly generic name FeministWiki.".
- "
- The question you cite is not about describing Magdalen as cis, but her activism as being in favour of cis women. That's why editors are presenting alternatives that don't use the word "cisgender", such as "she advocated for women's rights but defined women to exclude trans women". It's not "twaddle". I agree that opposition to the word "cisgender" goes hand-in-hand with anti-trans positions. Vashti (talk) 10:06, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- I refer you to the reason for this discussion:
- What exactly is the sentence under debate? Much will depend on that. And opposition to the label "cisgender" is often correlated with anti-trans positions, so the situation is not as clear cut as you are trying to make it.--Khajidha (talk) 09:47, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- This discussion has nothing to do with describing a subject as anti-trans. This discussion is about applying the term "cisgender" in the description of a subject when that subject rejected the label "cisgender" and refused to apply it to her/himself, or anyone else.
- In the lede of their cisgender page, they state "Since feminists oppose the gender essentialist notion of an inborn, inherent and essential feminine identity, and define gender as a patriarchal tool of sex-based oppression rather than a personally felt identity, they consequently disagree with the concept of a "cisgender person" as defined on the basis of gender identity." That seems pretty coherent: anti-trans feminists oppose gender identity, therefore they oppose the idea of cisgender people and the term. Vashti (talk) 11:00, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- You haven't shown that there's anything anti-trans about that wiki. But even for the sake of argument, your logic is fallacious: "anti-trans people reject this term, therefore rejecting this term is an anti-trans action" is affirming the consequent. -Pine457 (talk) 12:07, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- Here's Feminist Wiki's page on "transgender ideology". It's an anti-trans wiki. Are you really trying to use formal logic to argue that there isn't an overwhelming correlation between these two positions? Vashti (talk) 12:26, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- I don't see any bigotry against trans people on that page, can you point out what you're referring to? And I am following up on this: Pyxis said 'Someone who repudiates the label "cisgender" is not automatically anti-transgender.' You responded and appeared to be disputing Pyxis' claim. You appear to be disputing it by affirming the consequent. If not, what is your argument? The vast majority of people in the world do not accept this label for themselves, regardless of how they think about trans people. -Pine457 (talk) 12:38, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- Here's Feminist Wiki's page on "transgender ideology". It's an anti-trans wiki. Are you really trying to use formal logic to argue that there isn't an overwhelming correlation between these two positions? Vashti (talk) 12:26, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- You haven't shown that there's anything anti-trans about that wiki. But even for the sake of argument, your logic is fallacious: "anti-trans people reject this term, therefore rejecting this term is an anti-trans action" is affirming the consequent. -Pine457 (talk) 12:07, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- In the lede of their cisgender page, they state "Since feminists oppose the gender essentialist notion of an inborn, inherent and essential feminine identity, and define gender as a patriarchal tool of sex-based oppression rather than a personally felt identity, they consequently disagree with the concept of a "cisgender person" as defined on the basis of gender identity." That seems pretty coherent: anti-trans feminists oppose gender identity, therefore they oppose the idea of cisgender people and the term. Vashti (talk) 11:00, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
This is not a forum to discuss user conduct, and any argument based upon it is (as far as I am concerned) invalid and without merit. So let me make this clear, if the argument is "if you oppose the use if Cisgender you are A HOMOPHOBE!" I oppose its use, period.Slatersteven (talk) 13:40, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- That's absolutely not what I'm arguing. But it seems like there are WP:UNDUE issues with allowing the viewpoint of a small group of activists to veto the use of words, when they aren't applied to a subject. For reference, the supposedly mainstream arguments above are not even mentioned at Cisgender. Vashti (talk) 14:01, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- It is only a small minority of people who use the word "cisgender" in the first place. Most people have no use for it. It is an obscure neologism, which the usage history at the cisgender page attests to. While you can point to it first appearing in academic literature in the 90s, most people still haven't heard of it, most of those who have only heard of it this decade, and fewer still actually use the word. (And many who learned of it this decade learned it in the context of a slur, from the "Die Cis Scum" phrase.)
- I think the most common objection, among the few who have cause to think about the word at all, is summarized by John Boyne writing in The Irish Times here:
And while I wholeheartedly support the rights of trans men and women and consider them courageous pioneers, it will probably make some unhappy to know that I reject the word “cis”, the term given by transgender people to their nontransgender brethren. I don’t consider myself a cis man; I consider myself a man. For while I will happily employ any term that a person feels best defines them, whether that be transgender, non-binary or gender fluid to name but a few, I reject the notion that someone can force an unwanted term onto another.
- Shall I try to get that noted in the cisgender article, or will you remove it? A critique in The New Statesman was removed earlier this year. -Pine457 (talk) 17:54, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- Since I don't edit at cisgender, it isn't my business what you do there. If you can substantiate your critique, then it should be in the article. Vashti (talk) 19:19, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
Cisgender is a term that exists and is used widely enough by professional sources to be "legitimate". Whether or not a user personally likes it or not is not at issue. I don't like the word "moist", but I would never suggest Wikipedia not use it. There appears to be a lot of misrepresentation of arguments and intent. If folks want to sincerely discuss the term itself, then do so. But honestly that does not appear to be happening here. EvergreenFir (talk) 17:37, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- I don't disagree that it can be used, but it is sufficiently WP:TECHNICAL that, when clearer ways of expressing the same idea are available, it might be preferable to use them instead. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:50, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- Certainly. IMO, articles broadly related to gender studies (including feminist BLPs) would generally be an appropriate place to use them. I would not, however, suggest we use it on Bill Gates' BLP. EvergreenFir (talk) 17:57, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- You want to use a controversial term which many people have only been exposed to as a slur, on BLPs, specifically only on the BLPs of people who are most likely to object to it? You can't think of a better option? -Pine457 (talk) 18:08, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Pine457: the word cisgender is not a slur and not recognized as such by any dictionary I am aware of. The term is not controversial beyond WP:FRINGE viewpoints in any academic or professional circles. I'll also point out that feminist BLPs would also be the most likely be of people who use the term. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:16, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- I didn't say it was always a slur, but it is sometimes, and that's how a lot of people learned about it. Paula Blank in The Atlantic writes
'It's clear that some gay men and lesbians see "cisgender" as a slur, a way of labeling them as elitists or conformists after all (i.e., as not "queer" enough).'
This is not an uncontroversial term to apply to people who don't apply it to themselves. - Merriam-Webster was mentioned above. Their definition is
'of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity corresponds with the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth'
. That means we need to know that an individual conceptualizes him- or herself as having a gender identity, and we need to know what that self-defined identity is, before we could synthesize that information and declare them to be cisgender, even if the term was not controversial. The only option that I see as being in accordance with Wikipedia policy would be to reserve the term only for people who self-identify as such. -Pine457 (talk) 19:43, 10 October 2019 (UTC)- But we're not talking about labeling Berns as cisgender. We're talking about using the term in her BLP (well, recently living which is covered by WP:BLP). EvergreenFir (talk) 19:51, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- The plain meaning of the proposal applies the label to her, though. If we say she's "a woman who advocated for the rights of cisgender women" then we're saying she's a cisgender woman. No reasonable person would interpret that phrase any other way. -Pine457 (talk) 20:10, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- Perhaps I'm unreasonable, but I definitely don't follow the logic there. Does someone have to be a member of a group to advocate for it? Nblund talk 20:29, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- If you think the above phrase has another reasonable interpretation, please explain what it is. If she were "a trans women who advocated for the rights of cisgender women" then it would be clear she's not being included in that group. But she's not trans. -Pine457 (talk) 20:33, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- She could be a woman, whose sex assigned-at-birth is not documented in reliable sources, who advocated for the rights of cisgender women. That is, in fact, exactly what she is. I'm not quite sure what the objection is here. Nblund talk 20:42, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- So you're proposing that until we see her birth certificate, she might in fact be a transwoman and we should write the article to reflect this likelihood, despite having no evidence of it. That seems like a reasonable guideline to follow for biographies. Should we add "this person's sex assigned at birth is not documented in reliable sources" to each article's lead, or should it go in the first paragraph after the table of contents? -Pine457 (talk) 20:55, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- What? I believe you yourself argued that it would require WP:OR to call her cisgender. I agree. We can't do that. What we can do is call her a woman - which doesn't imply anything about her assigned sex. We don't need to state that this is unknown, because that's true of virtually every BLP. Nblund talk 21:05, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- We can call her a woman. My point is that 'if we say she's "a woman who advocated for the rights of cisgender women" then we're saying she's a cisgender woman. No reasonable person would interpret that phrase any other way.' I asked you to provide another reasonable interpretation, and you came up with "she could be a woman, whose sex assigned-at-birth is not documented in reliable sources". My point in linking to reasonable person is that we're writing for an audience who are not gender studies or queer studies academics or students, not activists, and not ideologues. An average person does not read "a woman" and mentally note that it should be interpreted as "a woman whose sex assigned-at-birth is not documented in reliable sources." An average person will read "a woman" and interpret it as meaning she is not unusual in that respect. Therefore, if she is not unusual in that respect, and she "advocated for the rights of cisgender women," then we're saying she's a member of that same class, that she is a cisgender woman. Only someone who is immersed in gender studies jargon (no disrespect intended, I am likewise immersed) would be likely to analyze it differently. -Pine457 (talk) 21:32, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- What? I believe you yourself argued that it would require WP:OR to call her cisgender. I agree. We can't do that. What we can do is call her a woman - which doesn't imply anything about her assigned sex. We don't need to state that this is unknown, because that's true of virtually every BLP. Nblund talk 21:05, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- So you're proposing that until we see her birth certificate, she might in fact be a transwoman and we should write the article to reflect this likelihood, despite having no evidence of it. That seems like a reasonable guideline to follow for biographies. Should we add "this person's sex assigned at birth is not documented in reliable sources" to each article's lead, or should it go in the first paragraph after the table of contents? -Pine457 (talk) 20:55, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- She could be a woman, whose sex assigned-at-birth is not documented in reliable sources, who advocated for the rights of cisgender women. That is, in fact, exactly what she is. I'm not quite sure what the objection is here. Nblund talk 20:42, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- If you think the above phrase has another reasonable interpretation, please explain what it is. If she were "a trans women who advocated for the rights of cisgender women" then it would be clear she's not being included in that group. But she's not trans. -Pine457 (talk) 20:33, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- Perhaps I'm unreasonable, but I definitely don't follow the logic there. Does someone have to be a member of a group to advocate for it? Nblund talk 20:29, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- The plain meaning of the proposal applies the label to her, though. If we say she's "a woman who advocated for the rights of cisgender women" then we're saying she's a cisgender woman. No reasonable person would interpret that phrase any other way. -Pine457 (talk) 20:10, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- But we're not talking about labeling Berns as cisgender. We're talking about using the term in her BLP (well, recently living which is covered by WP:BLP). EvergreenFir (talk) 19:51, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- I didn't say it was always a slur, but it is sometimes, and that's how a lot of people learned about it. Paula Blank in The Atlantic writes
- @Pine457: the word cisgender is not a slur and not recognized as such by any dictionary I am aware of. The term is not controversial beyond WP:FRINGE viewpoints in any academic or professional circles. I'll also point out that feminist BLPs would also be the most likely be of people who use the term. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:16, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- You want to use a controversial term which many people have only been exposed to as a slur, on BLPs, specifically only on the BLPs of people who are most likely to object to it? You can't think of a better option? -Pine457 (talk) 18:08, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- Certainly. IMO, articles broadly related to gender studies (including feminist BLPs) would generally be an appropriate place to use them. I would not, however, suggest we use it on Bill Gates' BLP. EvergreenFir (talk) 17:57, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
I too must be one of these unreasonable people. It seems, at best, disingenuous to suggest that advocacy for women (cis and/or trans) can be used to infer the gender identity of the advocate. We are in no way saying "she's a cisgender woman
" and it's a bit ridiculous to insist we are. Frankly I'd just as soon argue that, as a radical feminist, she may be genderless as many radical feminists espouse gender abolitionist views. EvergreenFir (talk) 21:36, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, as someone likewise jargon-immersed, you are not the audience we are writing for. The reasonable person also will not consider the possibility that she might have self-identified as genderless, which is even less salient than the possibility that she's trans. These suggestions all fail to consider what the phrase would most likely mean to an ordinary reader. The reason why saying she's "a woman who advocated for the rights of cisgender women" means she's a cisgender woman is because there's no other interpretation that's salient for the average reader. -Pine457 (talk) 21:55, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- The average person likely assumes that is the case for anyone who is not specifically designated as trans. Why does that matter? Your objection was that we can't call her "cisgender", but we aren't doing that, and it isn't any more implicit here than it is in every other blp. I think you're really just sort of objecting to the term in general here. Nblund talk 22:01, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- The average person doesn't assume anyone is cisgender, because the average person doesn't use that word or concept. It becomes implicit when you use the word, that's priming. We are calling her cisgender if we use a phrase which has no other likely interpretation to the average reader. I have no objection to using the word on biographies of people who use it to describe themselves. -Pine457 (talk) 22:11, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- Yep. And "priming" the reader is not allowed under WP:NOR; it's just another variant of WP:SYNTH – trying to lead the reader around by the nose, manipulating article language to imply things not actually found in the sources. 2601:643:867F:5370:CDB0:4476:46F5:1603 (talk) 17:29, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
- The average person doesn't assume anyone is cisgender, because the average person doesn't use that word or concept. It becomes implicit when you use the word, that's priming. We are calling her cisgender if we use a phrase which has no other likely interpretation to the average reader. I have no objection to using the word on biographies of people who use it to describe themselves. -Pine457 (talk) 22:11, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- The average person likely assumes that is the case for anyone who is not specifically designated as trans. Why does that matter? Your objection was that we can't call her "cisgender", but we aren't doing that, and it isn't any more implicit here than it is in every other blp. I think you're really just sort of objecting to the term in general here. Nblund talk 22:01, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
Not a forum
It is time to stop... this is a content dispute and not a matter of style. the original question was “can we say she is X”... the answer is: If sources call her X, yes... if sources do not call her X, then no. It really is that simple. Blueboar (talk) 22:07, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- Actually my original question was "can we call her activism X"; I've never considered that it would be appropriate to describe Magdalen as X without an overwhelming weight of reliable sources. Vashti (talk) 22:13, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- What you actually asked is:
"Is it appropriate to use the term cisgender in the article of someone who objects to that term,
" (1)
"e.g. to say that they advocate for the rights of cisgender women?
" (2)
"Should we avoid it because they don't like it?
" (3)
"Should we use it because it's the accepted terminology?
" (4)
Which raises the question: where are the reliable sources that, in their narrative about the biography subject, describe her activism as "for the rights of cisgender women"? Pyxis Solitary (yak) 03:58, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
- What you actually asked is:
Can we drop this now its getting tendentious (from both sides).Slatersteven (talk) 08:52, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
- Agreed, and I just got here. I agree with the sentiments above that we need no new (or changed) rules. 2601:643:867F:5370:CDB0:4476:46F5:1603 (talk) 17:29, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
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Opinions required at Template talk:Infobox isotope#Infobox title typograpy.
There's a dispute concerning the display of the name of elements/isotopes in {{Infobox isotope}}/{{Infobox element}}. Specifically, it concerns if commas should be followed by spaces or double spaces. Please comment at Template talk:Infobox isotope#Infobox title typograpy. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 12:38, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
"Committed suicide" or "died by suicide"?
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
So I was doing some cleanup on "commited" this morning, and ran across a ton of mentions of "committed suicide", categories that use it, etc. Alongside a number of related terms like "successful suicide", "committed suicide" is an increasingly deprecated phrase; Suicide#Definitions discusses this.
The Samaritans describe it as "inappropriate language"[8], and research has suggested that "attempted suicide", "died by suicide" etc. are most acceptable. Is there a consensus on what language Wikipedia should use? Vashti (talk) 10:52, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- there's also Suicide terminology. Vashti (talk) 10:54, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- The first time I saw it about a year ago, I was going to revert the change. However, quick research found what you noted above, and it seems to be used on The Guardian and The New York Times. I'd support not using "committed" per NPOV policy WP:IMPARTIAL. The revert reason I generally see used is "not common".—Bagumba (talk) 11:06, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- Committed is overwhelmingly the usual collocation. Died by suggests an artificial attempt to engineer language change. Doremo (talk) 11:43, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) See Talk:Suicide#Use_of_the_word_"committed" and the archives to which it points. Historically there has been no consensus to deviate from normal English usage. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 11:46, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- This again? We just had an extensive community discussion on this (See archive 197). Consensus was that “committed suicide” was fine... on par with “committed a good deed”. Blueboar (talk) 11:51, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, I did a search for it and I didn't see anything. It's fine with me if there's a consensus on it. Vashti (talk) 12:12, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- I had a look at the past discussions, and I appreciate that there's a longtime historical consensus on this. I also had a look at current media style guides and guidelines to see what opinions they gave, when they gave an opinion. Perhaps it might be time to look at this again? Is it really "engineering language change" if it's *this* widespread, and consensus among relevant professional groups is that it should not be done?
- Sorry, I did a search for it and I didn't see anything. It's fine with me if there's a consensus on it. Vashti (talk) 12:12, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- Associated Press: "Avoid using committed suicide except in direct quotations from authorities." [9]
- Reuters: "Avoid the phrase “committed suicide” unless you are quoting authorities, as the phrase implies criminality. Instead say died by suicide, killed herself or took his own life. [10]
- IPSO, the Independent Press Standards Organisation (UK): IPSO does not seek to limit the language that journalists can use to describe suicide. However, journalists should be aware that the Suicide Act 1961 decriminalised the act of suicide. Many organisations working in the area of suicide prevention are concerned about the use of the phrase ‘commit suicide’ and argue that the phrasing stigmatises suicide and is insensitive to those affected by suicide. They prefer to refer to a person’s decision to take their own life, or that they died by suicide." [11]
- The Guardian and The Observer: "Say that someone killed him or herself rather than “committed suicide”" [12]
- BBC News: "Some people are offended by the use of the term "commits suicide", as they say it implies a criminal action. The BBC’s Editorial Guidelines say that "kills oneself" or "takes one's life" are preferable options." [13]
- ABC, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation: "Avoid the phrase committed suicide. Other terms are readily available: killed himself, took their own life, etc." [15]
- Buzzfeed: When reporting on suicide, use language such as "killed oneself" or "died by suicide"" [16]
- World Health Organization, "Preventing Suicide: A Resource for Media Professionals": "The phrase ‘committed suicide’ should not be used because it implies criminality..." [17]
- NICE, the NHS National Institute for Health and Care Excellence: Lists "people who commit suicide" as "don't use". [18]
- The Samaritans media guidelines: "Avoid labelling a death as someone having ‘committed suicide’" [19]
- Papyrus, "Prevention of Young Suicide" media guidelines: "When reporting suicide we urge you not to use the term ‘committed suicide’. Changes made in the Suicide Act of 1961 decriminalised the act of suicide in the UK." [20]
- Vashti (talk) 13:35, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- Style guides are not actual usage. Actual people, talking about actual suicides, actually say "committed suicide". We write in the English language as it is, not as style guides wish it to be. --Khajidha (talk) 14:22, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- I also find it strange that we would be told not to use "took [someone else's] life", as it is overly flowery language, but "took his own life" is okay. --Khajidha (talk) 14:24, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- But we also seek to be neutral in our descriptions and turning to the professional standards of reliable sources is appropriate here. EvergreenFir (talk) 14:36, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- I also find it strange that we would be told not to use "took [someone else's] life", as it is overly flowery language, but "took his own life" is okay. --Khajidha (talk) 14:24, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- Style guides are not actual usage. Actual people, talking about actual suicides, actually say "committed suicide". We write in the English language as it is, not as style guides wish it to be. --Khajidha (talk) 14:22, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- "Killed him or herself" is the most neutral and most clear phrase available, and should be favoured. "Committed suicide" borders on a euphemism, which we are meant to avoid. RGloucester — ☎ 14:38, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- How is "committed suicide" anywhere close to a euphemism? It literally means "performed the act of killing oneself". "Took his own life" might be characterized as close to a euphemism, but not "committed suicide". --Khajidha (talk) 15:06, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- "Committed suicide" is much more common (and thus more neutral and clearer) than "killed himself". Doremo (talk) 15:08, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- It uses a Latinism to obscure meaning, a common pattern with euphemisms. Without training in Latin, the word "suicide" does not obviously mean anything. Are you suggesting the average person knows what sui and cide mean? "Killed him/herself", on the other hand, is natural English, with no obstruction. If someone does know what suicide means, it is usually only in terms of knowing that "suicide" is equivalent to the plain English "killing oneself", not in terms of a visceral understanding of the word's actual meaning. "Suicide" is beautification, no different than "toilet" is beautification. If "committed suicide" has been more common, it has been because there has been a tendency in English formal writing for centuries to favour beautified Latinate terminology...something Wikipedia does not do, and which is discouraged by our style guide. RGloucester — ☎ 15:14, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- You don't have to have training in Latin or know what sui and cide mean to know what the perfectly normal English word suicide means. It may have started as "beautification", but it is now normal usage. I also fail to see your point about "toilet", as that is the normal English word for the "porcelain throne" in my dialect. --Khajidha (talk) 15:23, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- The point is that "suicide" is not the starting point for meaning in English. It has an added layer of beautification. Again, if "suicide" is understood, it is only understood through the basic referent of "killing oneself". One would never need to explain the meaning of "killing oneself" as "suicide", but the reverse is in fact true. We have an obligation to use simple English, and avoid euphemisms where possible. These goals are written in our Manual of Style. Therefore, the basic words should be used, and the layers of beautification stripped away. RGloucester — ☎ 15:29, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- You could raise the same objection to many other Latin or Greek derived words. What makes suicide any different from, for instance, acceleration? --Khajidha (talk) 15:35, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- Moreover, kill is also originally a euphemism, meaning 'beat, strike'. How about "He slew himself"? But slay is also originally a euphemism ... Doremo (talk) 15:42, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- That difference is determined by how reliable sources on style treat the matter, and also by limitations on available terminology. In this case, we have many style guides discouraging the use of "committing suicide", and favouring "killing oneself". "Killing oneself" is a readily available terminology that has not been uniquely created or promoted by some people. First of all, in scientific areas that deal with concepts of "acceleration", that word is the normal word used, is not actively discouraged by anyone, and has no readily available alternative. However, there may well be cases where "acceleration" can be replaced by simpler terms when it is used in a metaphorical context, and this is probably preferable. RGloucester — ☎ 15:47, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- You could raise the same objection to many other Latin or Greek derived words. What makes suicide any different from, for instance, acceleration? --Khajidha (talk) 15:35, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- The point is that "suicide" is not the starting point for meaning in English. It has an added layer of beautification. Again, if "suicide" is understood, it is only understood through the basic referent of "killing oneself". One would never need to explain the meaning of "killing oneself" as "suicide", but the reverse is in fact true. We have an obligation to use simple English, and avoid euphemisms where possible. These goals are written in our Manual of Style. Therefore, the basic words should be used, and the layers of beautification stripped away. RGloucester — ☎ 15:29, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- You don't have to have training in Latin or know what sui and cide mean to know what the perfectly normal English word suicide means. It may have started as "beautification", but it is now normal usage. I also fail to see your point about "toilet", as that is the normal English word for the "porcelain throne" in my dialect. --Khajidha (talk) 15:23, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- It uses a Latinism to obscure meaning, a common pattern with euphemisms. Without training in Latin, the word "suicide" does not obviously mean anything. Are you suggesting the average person knows what sui and cide mean? "Killed him/herself", on the other hand, is natural English, with no obstruction. If someone does know what suicide means, it is usually only in terms of knowing that "suicide" is equivalent to the plain English "killing oneself", not in terms of a visceral understanding of the word's actual meaning. "Suicide" is beautification, no different than "toilet" is beautification. If "committed suicide" has been more common, it has been because there has been a tendency in English formal writing for centuries to favour beautified Latinate terminology...something Wikipedia does not do, and which is discouraged by our style guide. RGloucester — ☎ 15:14, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- Some Speculation The question is not whether 'committed suicide' is used in English. It is. But why is it called 'commit suicide'? It's because suicide has been considered sinful in Christianity, leading to the laws quoted above. 'Commit' means you are doing something that's bad. "perpetrate or carry out (a mistake, crime, or immoral act)." ([21]) I would say follow the style guides quoted above BUT allow for 'commit suicide' in quotations or in religious or legal contexts where a value judgement on suicide is specifically being discussed (as a sin or as illegal activity). For instance, I would keep the 'committing suicide' on the Ahitophel page, where suicide is being discussed as a sinful behavior. My thinking is: this is an encyclopaedia, and encyclopaedias aren't supposed to drive the reader toward a value judgement: they are supposed to report events in a neutral manner. But also, when suicide is being discussed as a sin or crime, it has to be left as it is. Personal opinion. Geographyinitiative (talk) 15:36, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- No... commit means “to intentionally act“, but NOT necessarily sinfully. After all... “committing an act of kindness“ is not a sin. Blueboar (talk) 15:57, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- I don't know if perhaps this Google Ngram chart may be instructive here. The phrases "acts of kindness" and "acts of violence" are clearly long established. But if you pair them with the verb "commit", "commit acts of kindness" is so rare that it does not even appear - whereas "commit acts of violence" is a much more common phrase, and has been for centuries.
- No... commit means “to intentionally act“, but NOT necessarily sinfully. After all... “committing an act of kindness“ is not a sin. Blueboar (talk) 15:57, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- I believe the phrase "commit acts of kindness" only caught on after Anne Herbert's 1982 epigram. As that page says, "[i]t was based on the phrase 'random acts of violence and senseless acts of cruelty'", and so is that seemingly positive use of the verb "commit". Vashti (talk) 19:41, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- "Killing himself" is what happens to Darwin award winners; it implied they were not set out to die but ended up in an action that killed them. "Suicide" implies intentional death. --Masem (t) 15:37, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- That is a good point; one does not accidentally commit suicide. Doremo (talk) 15:49, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- It's been known to happen. [22] EEng 16:18, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- I am sure there are stories of people that were thinking of committing suicide, got onto that proverbial ledge or whatever, changed their minds, but in trying to get off the ledge, slipped and fell and dies. That would still be, to distinguish "killed themselves", not "commit suicide", since the intent was not to die. But still, in the broader case, this is a reason not to try to replace "commit suicide" with "kill themselves" due to different connotations. --Masem (t) 16:53, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- Normally we would specify that a person died by accident on those cases. Jimi Heselden is not described as "killing himself", he accidentally fell off a cliff. Prince is described as dying from an "accidental overdose". Jon-Erik Hexum is described as dying from an accidental self-inflicted gunshot wound. I browsed through the list of Firearm accident victim in the U.S., and I couldn't find a single instance where we said someone "killed themselves" without specifying that it was accidental. Nblund talk 20:57, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- That is a good point; one does not accidentally commit suicide. Doremo (talk) 15:49, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- "Killing himself" is what happens to Darwin award winners; it implied they were not set out to die but ended up in an action that killed them. "Suicide" implies intentional death. --Masem (t) 15:37, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
The research linked above states that "Those who had been affected by suicide solely through their own experiences more commonly found it acceptable compared with those whose experience of suicide was exclusively through work or volunteering.", so I wonder what the point of this is. --Khajidha (talk) 16:38, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- The research also breaks the findings down by country (US, UK, and Australia). In the by country results, "commit suicide" shows overall acceptance in the US but ranges from unacceptable to acceptable in the UK and Australia. --Khajidha (talk) 16:42, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- Died by suicide is neutral, precise, and as Vashti notes above, universally supported by the style guides that govern the sources we're likely to be citing in our articles. As multiple sources note, the term "commit" generally has moral implications. You don't "commit retirement", and "committing random acts of kindness" is a play-on the more common phrase "random acts of violence". "Commit" also implies a person has full control of their faculties (you don't "commit an accident") which is not necessarily the case for people who die by suicide. Wikipedia is written in "plain English" but that isn't the same thing as "conversational English". When's the last time you heard someone reference a "perineum", or discuss "defecation"? Commonly used terms can be confusing and non-neutral, and there's nothing unclear or jargon-y about the phrase "died by suicide". Nblund talk 17:01, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- It's just made up gobbledygook that I can't recall ever coming across except when someone says that we should use that phrase instead of commit suicide. --Khajidha (talk) 17:17, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- And yet, here it is in ABC America, the AP, BBC News, Business Insider, CBS News, the Chronicle Herald, CNN, the Guardian, the Independent, the Irish Examiner, the Irish Independent, the Irish Mirror, the Irish Times, the LA Times, MSNBC, NBC News, the New York Times, NPR, the Philadelphia Inquirer, the Salt Lake Tribune, Science, USA Today, Vox, the Wall Street Journal.... Vashti (talk) 17:31, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- Gobbledygook? Do you really think it could be difficult to understand or are you just not used to hearing it? Articles that avoid the term "commit" (1, 2) read as perfectly natural to me. MOS:WORDS lists lots of terms that are common in everyday speech that Wikipedians should generally avoid because they're imprecise or non-neutral Nblund talk 17:46, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- I find it hard to understand as "died by" generally refers to something that happens to or is done to someone, while "suicide" is not some external event. --Khajidha (talk) 19:52, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- "Found dead from an apparent suicide", "died by intentional overdose". Would you say either of these are ambiguous? The term "suicide" already indicates self-infliction. Nblund talk 20:34, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- The first says "dead from", not "dead by". For the second, I find it just as confusing/wrong as the standard phrasing would be "died from an intentional overdose". Whether it could be described better as confusing or as poor grammar, "died by" just reads wrong when attached to a self-inflicted act. --Khajidha (talk) 21:00, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- "Died from suicide" seems fine as well if that's the sticking point. Nblund talk 21:15, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- The first says "dead from", not "dead by". For the second, I find it just as confusing/wrong as the standard phrasing would be "died from an intentional overdose". Whether it could be described better as confusing or as poor grammar, "died by" just reads wrong when attached to a self-inflicted act. --Khajidha (talk) 21:00, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- "Found dead from an apparent suicide", "died by intentional overdose". Would you say either of these are ambiguous? The term "suicide" already indicates self-infliction. Nblund talk 20:34, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- I find it hard to understand as "died by" generally refers to something that happens to or is done to someone, while "suicide" is not some external event. --Khajidha (talk) 19:52, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- In prose, we should not standardize on either term, but use what the RSes of the major media for that nation with the most relevance (most likely, the person's nationality). In broader articles (articles about suicide, mental depression, etc.) stick to what the appropriate MEDRS sources give. If the situation is vague enough - that is, no clear case for either by sources, then defaulting to "death by suicide" sseems to be a good approach. --Masem (t) 17:11, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- "Commit suicide" relates to "commitment". It does not relate to illegality or sinfulness, at least not in present use. The finality of death represents a "commitment" to that nonliving state of being, this being because there is no turning back. It is actually a powerful phrase. The impetus to eliminate it is misguided. We don't use language for namby-pamby purposes. Bus stop (talk) 17:32, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- So are all of the dozen or more reliable sources above just mistaken about what the phrase means? Nblund talk 17:46, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- Nblund—I perceive a relation between two words: "commit" and "commitment". Would you agree they are related terms? Would you agree that "commit" and "commitment" are related terms? Bus stop (talk) 17:59, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- But we can't edit Wikipedia based on your perceptions. Commitment means one thing; it's related to the verb commit, but does not define its meaning. We can say that one commits oneself to a decision, which can be good or bad: "she committed herself". But when we say that someone commits a particular act - murder, rape, adultery, suicide - it's because these things are, or were, crimes. Here are some recent historical stories from The Times back archive to support the many sources above:
- Nblund—I perceive a relation between two words: "commit" and "commitment". Would you agree they are related terms? Would you agree that "commit" and "commitment" are related terms? Bus stop (talk) 17:59, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- a man attempts suicide in 1957 and is convicted. "X, aged 31, of Noll Road, Islington, pleaded Guilty to charges of attempting to commit suicide..." ["Van Suicide Attempt Charge." Times, 30 Jan. 1959, p. 6. The Times Digital Archive, http://tinyurl.gale.com/tinyurl/BuA6e8. Accessed 13 Oct. 2019.]
- a man attempts suicide in 1959 and is convicted. "He was convicted of arson and attempted suicide and was put on probation..." ["Love-Sick Felon." Times, 24 Mar. 1959, p. 17. The Times Digital Archive, http://tinyurl.gale.com/tinyurl/BuA540. Accessed 13 Oct. 2019.]
- a woman attempts suicide in 1959 and is convicted. "X, of no fixed address ... was charged with attempting to commit suicide on March 15 and pleaded Guilty." ["Model 'Incited To Suicide Attempt'." Times, 26 Mar. 1959, p. 7. The Times Digital Archive, http://tinyurl.gale.com/tinyurl/BuA342. Accessed 13 Oct. 2019.]
- in 1959, a man attempts to shoot his wife, and his attempted suicide is added to the charge. "X, aged 38, accountant ... was charged with shooting at his wife ... and with attempting to commit suicide on August 13." ["Wished To Appear As Hero To Wife." Times, 10 Nov. 1959, p. 8. The Times Digital Archive, http://tinyurl.gale.com/tinyurl/BuA2n5. Accessed 13 Oct. 2019.]
- a woman is tried for suicide in 1959. "X, aged 20, of no fixed abode, was charged on remand... yesterday with attempting to commit suicide." ["Langley Says Girl Was Hysterical." Times, 15 Dec. 1959, p. 7. The Times Digital Archive, http://tinyurl.gale.com/tinyurl/Bu9yo7. Accessed 13 Oct. 2019.]
- a man threatens suicide in 1960. "A police officer said it was not expected that charges would be laid; it was considered that X was a sick man." [OWN, OUR. "Man's Threat To Take 80ft. Leap." Times, 5 July 1960, p. 6. The Times Digital Archive, http://tinyurl.gale.com/tinyurl/Bu9ur9. Accessed 13 Oct. 2019.]
- The style guides and professional organisations have it right. Vashti (talk) 18:10, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- ^Right. Bus Stop: the word has two definitions. The second definition of "commit" (to pledge) is generally paired with the preposition "to": you can "commit to marriage", but you don't "commit marriage". Your argument, in essence, is that all of the sources are just wrong about which definition is actually intended. But if everyone consistently misinterprets a term, then it is ambiguous and we should avoid it in favor of something more precise.Nblund talk 18:15, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- The style guides and professional organisations have it right. Vashti (talk) 18:10, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
"But if everyone consistently misinterprets a term, then it is ambiguous and we should avoid it in favor of something more precise."
No, we are not here to right great wrongs. And as I am explaining—there is nothing "wrong" with the phrase "commit suicide". Language reform for the sake of language reform should be rejected. Bus stop (talk) 18:35, 13 October 2019 (UTC)- Who said anything about "righting great wrongs"? The goal of Wikipedia is to inform readers, ambiguous or non-neutral language stands in the way of that. MOS:CONFUSE cautions against using terms in ways that might mislead readers, and WP:MOS recommends clear language wherever possible. Nblund talk 18:54, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- I think there's a major dollop of EngVar involved here, as the vast majority of the sources quoted above are UK or Commonwealth in origin. As are the most vocal of the opponents of using "commit suicide". While suicide was a crime in various jurisdictions in the US at various times (even within my own lifetime), I don't recall the phrase being perceived in quite the same way as said opponents seem to perceive it. "Committed suicide" has always seemed to this 45 year old American as the simplest, clearest, most straightforward phrasing. "Killed himself" seems to be trying to soften the blow, as it does not necessarily imply a purposeful act (as explained above) and all the other options given are either euphemisms or neologisms that jar the reader. Or both. --Khajidha (talk) 18:58, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- You could be on to something there; I think someone has already said it's worse in the Commonwealth. Then again, it could just be that I'm British and most of the sources I have access to are as well. But there are plenty of sources in the media list above from the US and even Canada - and from across the political spectrum, too. Here's Fox News, Fox again, and I'm not allowed to link Breitbart but a quick Google search will show plenty of hits. Vashti (talk) 19:22, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- I have no problem with "killed him(her)self"; it doesn't strike me as a euphemism at all. It's true I can imagine saying that someone accidentally killed himself, and not (in any ordinary case) that he accidentally committed suicide, but I think "killed himself" carries a very strong presumption of intentionality in the absence of some word such as "accidentally". On the other hand, "died by suicide" sounds like something that just mysteriously happened to the person, not something the person did, and in that sense does sound like a euphemism. If it genuinely becomes the standard, of course we will adopt it, but I don't think Wikipedia should be leading the charge on this sort of thing. --Trovatore (talk) 00:06, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- You could be on to something there; I think someone has already said it's worse in the Commonwealth. Then again, it could just be that I'm British and most of the sources I have access to are as well. But there are plenty of sources in the media list above from the US and even Canada - and from across the political spectrum, too. Here's Fox News, Fox again, and I'm not allowed to link Breitbart but a quick Google search will show plenty of hits. Vashti (talk) 19:22, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
Ten of the fourteen style guides listed above are journalistic house-styles and two of the remaining four are specialist guides for journalists. News outlets are in the business of selling their stories. If writing "committed suicide" causes more people to get their news elsewhere than "died by suicide" then the latter gets enshrined in their style-guides. We should not be among the vanguard in promoting unusual phrasings. Primergrey (talk) 05:18, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- Not this again. I propose a moratorium on the suicide RFCs. Committed suicide is fine, the only people offended by this are those looking to be offended. Here are other non-criminal things that people commit. Code is committed, people commit to being vegetarian. They commit to their spouse. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 05:30, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- I would support a moratorium proposal. The discussion is going nowhere. Doremo (talk) 07:51, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- I prefer "Committed suicide" as "Death by suicide" to my ears seems redundant as suicide is the action of killing oneself. However unlike the media links above we do have recent small studies by neutral experts on this with a recommendation Language use and suicide: An online cross-sectional survey PLoS One. 2019; 14(6): e0217473. Published online 2019 Jun 13. doi: "10.1371/journal.pone.0217473 Variation in opinion exists amongst people affected by suicide regarding most phrases, often depending on contextual factors. “Attempted suicide”, “took their own life”, “died by suicide” and “ended their life” were however considered most acceptable. We argue that academic and media guidelines should promote use of these phrases,....I don't mind "took their own life" for prose text but as an older timer prefer simply suicide for infoboxes.--Moxy 🍁 06:51, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- The long list of mainstream style guides advising against "committed suicide" is pretty convincing to me. WanderingWanda (talk) 07:16, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- Either "died by suicide" or "killed him/herself" works, with the second being blunter than the first. In some contexts (such as "cause of death") just the word "suicide" would probably suffice. "Committed suicide" is an old usage dating back to the days when suicide was a crime, and is deprecated by mainstream style guides. -- The Anome (talk) 07:40, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think it matters if something dates back to days when suicide was a crime. Is anyone implying there is a crime when they say that someone committed suicide? No one is implying anything of the sort. That is a completely bogus argument. Ditto for the sinfulness argument. The phrase simply means death by one's own hand. There are no implications regarding "legality" or "sinfulness". The phrase happens to be a part of the English language. You can't tell someone not to speak English. The language belongs to everyone. The problem with all this is it is an attempt to tell others what they can't say. Bullshit. There has to be a solidly-grounded reason for someone to be required to shut up. By default we should be allowed to use the English language. Bus stop (talk) 16:05, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- "Committed suicide" is fine, as is "killed him/herself". "Died by suicide" is unnecessarily confused language. Our job is to use language that is commonly used, not to be an instrument to change language. Whatever organisations may say in their ever more convoluted attempts to be PC, "committed suicide" is still the common term in common use of the English language and is not in any way insensitive or insulting. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:13, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- Thinking of John: whatever style guides say, I try to avoid "committed suicide" because - for me - it sounds (too) similar to "committed a crime". We have other options, "died by suicide", "took her own ife", "killed herself" - be inventive. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:24, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- There is no problem with "committed suicide", or the term would not be the dominant phrase in contemporary reliable sources written in English. This thread should just be hatted as [probably unintentional] forum shopping and rehash. We've really been over this again and again and again (here, at WT:MOSWTW, and in many other venues). Very recently, too, in an RfC that closed in favor of retaining "committed suicide" [23]. 2601:643:867F:5370:E44A:534:D1D4:338C (talk) 09:41, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- Retain "committed suicide", and declare a moratorium on discussing this unless something significantly changes in the real world. Given the RFC mentioned by the IP above, which closed just a month and a half ago, there is no need to keep on repeating the same debates over and over. — Amakuru (talk) 09:46, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- This is clearly going nowhere, but since people will certainly keep asking about this, I'd like to sum up before I go and do literally anything else. I get the impression that we are not all having the same conversation. The original MOS discussion on "commit suicide" was in 2004. At that time, it certainly would have been an inappropriate change. But 15 years have passed, and usage has moved on, while every new raising of this has ultimately harked back to that 2004 consensus, and what people like and don't like, and what they have and haven't heard of.
- Absolutely nobody on this thread has suggested that the MOS should deprecate "commit suicide" because it is offensive. Nobody has been arguing from some great personal political position. What has been argued is:
- that there is strong WP:MEDRS deprecating "committed suicide" as harmful ("guidelines or position statements from national or international expert bodies") and associated with the crime of suicide - former in the USA and UK, but still current in many places;
- that there is overwhelming evidence that, since 2004, the media have adopted these guidelines, across national and political boundaries - imperfectly, but overwhelmingly; [24] [25] [26]
- that Wikipedia should do the same, because at this point we are not "following usage", we are one of the last holdouts insisting on a usage that WP:MEDRS deem not offensive, but harmful.
- I've also spent the afternoon researching what relevant professional groups say, when they express an opinion. Out of 34 relevant organisations, all but one (PAHO, who operate primarily in Spanish IIRC) have a position on this. Of those, five use the Reporting on Suicide guidelines (including ROS themselves), which don't deprecate "commit suicide" - but do recommend "died by suicide". The rest - 27 organisations in all - either state outright that they deprecate "commit suicide", or recommend guidelines which do. 27 of 34. Even PAHO state that we should "avoid the use of stigmatizing language". And these sources are in addition to the many, many sources provided above!
- Meanwhile, these are the arguments for the current consensus:
- WP:ILIKEIT regarding "committed suicide", ignoring WP:RS;
- Original research about what people think "commit suicide" means, ignoring WP:RS; [27]
- WP:IDONTLIKEIT regarding "died by suicide", ignoring WP:RS;
- That the usage of the man on the street should trump both WP:MEDRS and WP:RS. (though what I find interesting here is the clear downward trend in its use.)
- I've cited countless RS in this thread. I've put in hours of work. Where are your sources? What is your argument, besides "someone said in 2004 that it was fine and we've been nodding along ever since"? Vashti (talk) 16:13, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- What I find interesting in that graph is the clear trend of "die by suicide" not being used. Every variant of that phrase on that graph is so close to 0% as to be indistinguishable from 0%. --Khajidha (talk) 17:15, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- Zoom in further and you'll see it going up. I would like to see figures past 2008, myself. Vashti (talk) 17:19, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- ^seconded. As long as the argument amounts to "it sounds funny" or "every stylebook and dictionary is wrong about the meaning of the word", then this is likely to be a recurring dispute. Commit can imply criminal or immoral actions. It's silly to keep arguing otherwise, and the revisionist etymologists here need to cite some sources if they want to sustain this argument. As it stands, reliable sources consistently note that the term is ambiguous, and recommend against using it because it can potentially mislead readers. We have perfectly viable alternatives that are clearer, and we have plenty of precedent for eschewing common-but-misleading terms. Nblund talk 16:28, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- You are dissecting the language, Nblund. You are saying
"Commit can imply criminal or immoral actions."
It is almost funny. Just because it can imply criminal or immoral actions does not mean that it does imply criminal or immoral actions. Bus stop (talk) 16:36, 14 October 2019 (UTC)- [citation needed] Vashti (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- No, we do not need to cite that the word "can" does not mean the same as the word "does". --Khajidha (talk) 17:21, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- Then cite something in a reliable source that counters the ten or so organisations who state that it does, or recommend statements that it does. Vashti (talk) 17:29, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- No, we do not need to cite that the word "can" does not mean the same as the word "does". --Khajidha (talk) 17:21, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- MOS:ALLEGED states:
Words such as supposed, apparent, alleged and purported can imply that a given point is inaccurate
. It recommends that we avoid them because of that potential implication. Why would we take the risk of needlessly misleading readers? Nblund talk 16:43, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- [citation needed] Vashti (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- You are dissecting the language, Nblund. You are saying
"misleading readers"
how? Bus stop (talk) 16:47, 14 October 2019 (UTC)- I'm sorry, this is an obtuse question. Nblund talk 16:49, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- It is my contention that the phrase "committed suicide" is not inherently misleading. I asked you how that phrase could possibly mislead readers. I'm sorry if that is an "obtuse question". I am trying my best not to be obtuse. Bus stop (talk) 16:53, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- What is your basis for that view? David Minthorn, one of the AP editors explains
Committed in that context suggests possibly an illegal act, but in fact, laws against suicide have been repealed in the US, at least in certain states, and many other places
. MOS:CONFUSE (and WP:BLPCRIME) both would caution us to avoid language that could give leaders an impression that a crime has been committed. Ample evidence has been provided for this, and your contention seems unfounded. Nblund talk 17:00, 14 October 2019 (UTC)- But that's just it, in American English I don't feel any implication that the phrase "commit suicide" implies wrongdoing. It is simply the way it is said.--Khajidha (talk) 17:09, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- Yet The American Association of Suicidology, the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, the National Action Alliance for Suicide Prevention, the National Alliance on Mental Illness and the Department of Veterans Affairs still deprecate it. AAS state outright that it is criminalising, while NAASP say that it reinforces stigma. Vashti (talk) 17:16, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- But that's just it, in American English I don't feel any implication that the phrase "commit suicide" implies wrongdoing. It is simply the way it is said.--Khajidha (talk) 17:09, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- What is your basis for that view? David Minthorn, one of the AP editors explains
- It is my contention that the phrase "committed suicide" is not inherently misleading. I asked you how that phrase could possibly mislead readers. I'm sorry if that is an "obtuse question". I am trying my best not to be obtuse. Bus stop (talk) 16:53, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
@Khajidha:, in British English it doesn't imply wrongdoing either. @Vashti:, 15 years is no particularly long. I'm still essentially using the language I learnt at my Mother's knee in the 1950s. I'd agree that this is going nowhere, that's why there was an attempt to head it off when the thread started yet again. Threads like this are akin to EU voting; if the people don't vote the right way, keep making them vote until they get it correct (=my way). There is no clear consensus, let's put this one to bed at let it slumber for at least a year, preferably five. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 17:38, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- Putting it bluntly, "the sources don't matter because I like it" is not an argument I care to encounter on Wikipedia. Vashti (talk) 17:41, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
Are offsetting commas needed for titles?
Simple question, which of these is correct:
- The Testaments by Margaret Atwood and Girl, Woman, Other by Bernardine Evaristo jointly win the Booker Prize for Fiction
- The Testaments by Margaret Atwood and Girl, Woman, Other, by Bernardine Evaristo jointly win the Booker Prize for Fiction
This issue has arisen in the current T:ITN on the main page, and my belief that the comma in the second title should be offset by another comma has been challenged. I suppose it depends if the words of the title are regarded as part of the running text or not. Thanks — Amakuru (talk) 14:29, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
- The first one is appropriate; the second one contains the opening comma of a paired comma pair but is missing the second comma. The coordinated subject and title-internal commas are irrelevant; it is equivalent to the (incorrect) "Lara, by Bernardine Evaristo was ...". Doremo (talk) 14:45, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
- What do you mean by a "title-internal comma"? The MOS page makes no mention of such a concept. But now that you mention it, the presence of a necessary comma at the end of the second title might actually necessitate further commas elsewhere too. Perhaps
- The Testaments, by Margaret Atwood, and Girl, Woman, Other, by Bernardine Evaristo, jointly win the Booker Prize for Fiction
- is the only way to do it... — Amakuru (talk) 15:11, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
- The title Girl, Woman, Other contains two (irrelevant) title-internal commas. The phrase "by Bernardine Evaristo" should have either paired commas both left and right ("Girl, Woman, Other, by Bernardine Evaristo, is ...") or no commas ("Girl, Woman, Other by Bernardine Evaristo is ..."). Having only the left of the paired commas is equivalent to having an opening parenthesis or an opening dash while lacking the second one; that is: "Girl, Woman, Other (by Bernardine Evaristo is ..." or "Girl, Woman, Other—by Bernardine Evaristo is ...". Doremo (talk) 15:32, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
- As for the full example, one could support either paired commas for both on the basis of them being reduced nonrestrictive clauses: "The Testaments, by Margaret Atwood, and Girl, Woman, Other, by Bernardine Evaristo, jointly win ..." (i.e., < "The Testaments, which was written by Margaret Atwood, and Girl, Woman, Other, which was written by Bernardine Evaristo, jointly win ..."), or no commas for aesthetic reasons, to reduce comma clutter: "The Testaments by Margaret Atwood and Girl, Woman, Other by Bernardine Evaristo jointly win ..." Doremo (talk) 15:38, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
- What do you mean by a "title-internal comma"? The MOS page makes no mention of such a concept. But now that you mention it, the presence of a necessary comma at the end of the second title might actually necessitate further commas elsewhere too. Perhaps
- The first is correct. The commas inside the title are part of the title string and have no bearing on the sentence structure, which is "Foo by Bar and Baz by Quux jointly win the Xyzzy", requiring no syntactic commas. Conceive of content within a title string as similar in this regard to content within brackets, or within a dash-delimited parenthetical, or hidden inside a footnote, if that helps your thinking about it and parsing it. — AReaderOutThataway t/c 06:26, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
Aside: The "Foo, by Bar, and Baz, by Quux, jointly won the Xyzzy" style is obsolescent in a construction this simple and involving basic attribution; it's a style that went out around the 1920s when entertainment-related reportage increased markedly. It would still be used in more complex cases and relationships, and the styles can be mixed. Example, and note the lack of a comma before the simple attribution with "at" but presence of a comma before introducing a more complex relationship after "then"): "The Dilithium Blast Test Laboratory at the University of Elbonia, then under the direction of lab director Phnord Blutto, was closed for 8 months in 2025 for repairs after an uncontrolled explosion that killed three researchers." The comma is also often added for emphasis, irony, or other attention-seeking; an example closer to the OP's music focus: "Back in a Flash, by Vanilla Ice, won a 2021 Best American Roots Performance Grammy; the acoustic album was his first studio release since 2011, and a major departure from his previous rap and hip-hop styles." — AReaderOutThataway t/c 19:09, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
Redlinks Revisited. Again: This time concerning cited redlinks
Hey List editors.
I've been editing List of caves over the years and it's in fairly good shape right now, but it still has a lot of redlinks with citations. I instantly delete any redlink or blacklink (is that a term?) that isn't cited. However, in the case of caves, most of these redlinks will never get an article, at least not any time soon (talking many years here). Is it possible to create an individual policy for a list article that strictly prohibits redlinks of any kind, sourced or not? Leitmotiv (talk) 19:08, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
- I'd have thought the questions of whether it's cited and whether it's a redlink are reasonably independent of each other. We have articles on subjects that are not notable, and we lack articles on subjects that are notable. In general I'd have thought it best to verify that the entity really doesn't exist before removing it, even if it's a redlink and there is no citation. The WP:V requirement is only to remove material "likely to be challenged" not to have a blanket policy of removing any uncited material. — Amakuru (talk) 20:09, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
- In a lot of cases requiring list entries to be blue serves as a filter to keep the lists from getting out of hand by restricting them only to list members notable enough for their own articles, a higher requirement than verifiability. For instance in lists of alumni of universities, it would in many cases be easy to fill the lists with the names of all graduates, regardless of notability, sourced to newspaper listings or commencement programs, but I think it's clear that would be a bad idea. On the other hand if the number of list elements is limited naturally in some other way, it may be reasonable to allow entries that are sourced but not bluelinked. Even in such cases, I think redlinks should be limited to topics for which notability is likely even though the article hasn't yet been written, and that other sourced entries should be left unlinked. But I don't have a strong opinion whether the list of caves is of the former type (something that would grow unwieldy if you listed all verifiable caves) or the latter type (one where sourced but unlinked entries should be allowed). —David Eppstein (talk) 20:33, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
- @David Eppstein: List of caves is absolutely of the former type. It has the potential to get very unwieldy as many caves are trivially mentioned in articles on the internet (to say nothing of the trivial mentions in spelunking literature). I'm wondering if this is also a matter of aesthetics too. One could add tens of thousands of characters of cited redlinks, but I don't feel that would really improve the article. To be quite frank, abundant redlinks are an eyesore and it looks shoddy. I think if you're navigating Wikipedia's articles, you're typically not interested in link articles citations. But that's just my opinion. Hmmm... maybe I could propose a move as another option: List of caves to List of caves with articles. Leitmotiv (talk) 22:00, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
- Here's what I would do. Make a separate article at, e.g., List of caves in Madagascar, and redirect all the redlinks there. Include the unlinked names with their sources on the target list, with whatever other information we may have about them (coordinates, adjacent settlement, etc.). bd2412 T 21:22, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
- I'd be tempted to just remove all the redlinks, either boldly or after discussing it at the list talk page. It's what happened a while back at List of people by Erdős number (one I edit regularly that would also grow unwieldy with redlinks — one might argue that it is already unwieldy just with the bluelinks) and it seemed to go smoothly enough for it. It does require continued vigilance reverting attempts to add new ones, but at least that way the inclusion criterion is easy to explain. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:52, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
- In a lot of cases requiring list entries to be blue serves as a filter to keep the lists from getting out of hand by restricting them only to list members notable enough for their own articles, a higher requirement than verifiability. For instance in lists of alumni of universities, it would in many cases be easy to fill the lists with the names of all graduates, regardless of notability, sourced to newspaper listings or commencement programs, but I think it's clear that would be a bad idea. On the other hand if the number of list elements is limited naturally in some other way, it may be reasonable to allow entries that are sourced but not bluelinked. Even in such cases, I think redlinks should be limited to topics for which notability is likely even though the article hasn't yet been written, and that other sourced entries should be left unlinked. But I don't have a strong opinion whether the list of caves is of the former type (something that would grow unwieldy if you listed all verifiable caves) or the latter type (one where sourced but unlinked entries should be allowed). —David Eppstein (talk) 20:33, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
- Agree the relinking and citation matters are severable. The entry might be appropriate in a list (depending on its stated inclusion criteria – see WP:SAL) as long as it's sourced, but there is no reason to redlink it if we do not think it could sustain a properly developed article. Most caves are not going to be article-worthy, because of a lack of in-depth coverage in multiple, independent, reliable sources (WP:N). Many of them are probably instead best treated as subsectional content (under "Tourism", "Attractions", "Geology", or whatever) in a broader article about the area in which the cave exists. Anyway, "this has a citation" is not a defense argument about removing a redlink, though it often is against removal of its entry in a list or mention in a non-list article (cf. the difference between the WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE and WP:N standards; the criteria for mention/listing is much lower that for creation of a stand-alone article). — AReaderOutThataway t/c 06:22, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
"U.S." vs. "US"
According to this edit, "US" is preferred over "U.S." (in this case, in a stand-alone context; two edits prior, this was changed from "United States" to simply "US"). Is this statement correct? This does not seem to be reflected in the MOS:US guideline and I've mostly seen "U.S." being used in such contexts. There have been partial discussions on this in the past, but no consensus ever came of it. Regards, Lordtobi (✉) 16:14, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
Actors' names in film plots
Can we add a note to avoid including actors' names in film plots? Since February 2017, MOS:TVPLOT has included the line Avoid minutiae like dialogue, scene-by-scene breakdowns, individual jokes, technical detail, as well as any information that belongs in other sections, such as actors' names.
The corresponding line in MOS:FILMPLOT currently reads: The plot summary is an overview of the film's main events, so avoid minutiae like dialogue, scene-by-scene breakdowns, individual jokes, and technical detail.
This is pretty straightforward encyclopedic tone/summary style, so I feel we can go ahead without a big discussion. – Reidgreg (talk) 19:20, 22 October 2019 (UTC)