Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous

October 4

Stacy Arthur

I'm not really sure where to ask this as it pertains to an article but I'm also looking for references for said article so I thought the ref desk would be better... So, I'm just gonna ask... I'm trying to find a source for a bit of info that was in the article for Stacy Arthur. I removed it as it didn't have a source but I'd like to find a source. The info was that Arthur's husband was killed by a deranged fan shortly after she appeared in Playboy. So I went looking on the net and found a discussion between some fans that mentions a Entertainment Tonight report. The link to the online synopsis is dead. So after searching a bit more I found several references to a newspaper called The Cleveland Plain Dealer. But all I have is these links from the Cleveland Public Library: [1] [2] [3]. So can I use those as a source? I mean, I can piece together that her husband was killed by a fan named James Lindberg. And judging by those links, it happened in Oct/Nov 1991. So would this be a suitable source? And if not, or even if they can be, can anyone find a better source? Thanks for reading all that... Dismas|^(talk) 01:27, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

The Plain Dealer is the major newspaper in Cleveland, Ohio, and some would say the entire state. Anyone with access to a library in the state should probably be able to get back copies, or worst-case, microfiche. I would feel better if someone were able to look any of these articles up in the paper, rather than using these links. --After Midnight ⁰⁰⁰¹ 00:15, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Here's a link for an October 1991 article. I think it should work without a login, but let me know if you have difficulty accessing it. - EurekaLott 21:14, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't really have anything more to add than what's been already said. Basically, we need someone with the ability to look up the articles in back issues of the newspaper in question to corroborate the claim, since that would be the most reliable source out there. Perhaps we can find a Wikipedian in that area who would like to take a trip down to their local library in Cleveland for some research? -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. ^{Think out loud} 00:07, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Blackwater employee salaries

With all the attention Blackwater USA has been getting recently with their mercenary soldiers, I've been wondering, approximately how much does a medium-level Blackwater operative make in Iraq per year? EDIT: as well, what was Erik Prince's rank when he dropped out of the Navy? Thanks. Acceptable 01:57, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

this page tells a story of one recieveing $365,000 (about a thousand per day). It also says that provided you stay in the country for at least a year, the money is tax-free.this blog Notes the pay varies from 500 to 1000 USD per day, so somewhere wround $182,000. If you're looking for a "medium-level," let's use an arbitraty number of $750 per day, leading to a slarly of a little under $275,000. this page notes that the US government pays Blackwater security agents $1,222 per day when it needs them. For comparison purpose of all this, those sites are quoting $36,000 to $96,000 for an officer, or "$51,100 to $69,350 a year in salary, housing and other benefits" for a "top Army sergeant". --Ybbor^Talk 02:14, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Flywheel

Hi, i would like to have a brief, very simple description of a FLYWHEEL. This is for a High School Reasearch Assignment, and I will be very greatful for contributions. The Wikipedia and Simple English Wikipedias are too confusing. Pls help, thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Erzhaosong2000 (talk • contribs) 03:43, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Please see question asked of you at Simple:Talk:Flywheel — User:ACupOfCoffee@ 06:11, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

It takes energy to get a wheel (any wheel) to rotate. If there is little friction (good bearings) then it will keep rotating a long time. When energy is needed, it can be taken from the wheel again. So it is a simple mechanical means of storing energy. The amount of energy stored is a function of the weight and the speed of rotation - making a heavier wheel rotate faster takes more energy. Another factor is the radius (size) because the further from the axis a part of the wheel is, the more energy it takes to make is rotate (can't think of a better way to say this). In the formula in the simple Wikipedia article, these are represented by M (mass), $\omega$ (angular velocity) and R (radius). Combining the two equations there gives $\omega$²MR²/4 (those equations could do with some more explanation if this is supposed to be 'simple'). A fly-wheel is not just any wheel, but specifically designed to store energy. So it should be heavy and/or rotate fast. For example, some buses have a fly-wheel that is used for stopping and starting. When the bus stops (eg for a traffic light), the fly-wheel is connected to the wheels, so the rotational energy is transferred to it, so the bus will slow down while the fly-wheel speeds up. Then, when the bus has to start driving again, it is connected again and the energy is transferred back. Of course, you wouldn't want to lug a heavy wheel around on a bus, so it is made of a lighter material that can withstand extremely fast rotation. Did that help? If so, I (or you) could add it to the article. DirkvdM 08:50, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Brief and simple description? A flywheel is a heavy wheel that stores energy by spinning. You store the energy by spinning the wheel, and extract the energy by having the wheel spin something else. (As Dirk says, it could spin very fast instead of being heavy, but you wanted simple) Kinder Surprise used to have a range of tiny flywheel-driven cars, which were useful for understanding this. If only I still had one... 79.65.119.193 10:19, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah, yes, those were cool. Funny, by the way. The name is a combination of German and English, but it was an Italian product. (Called Ferrero - I wonder if they also had Ferraris :) ). DirkvdM 18:47, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Erzhoasong, once again, could you please tell if my explanation (or the anon's) helped you? I'm especially interested in this case, not just because I want to improve the article, but also because I like to reduce things to their simplest form and wonder if I succeeded. DirkvdM 06:24, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Never mind, I added it to the article anyway. My first simple English! :) DirkvdM 06:17, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

the colors and thier meanings of Italy's flag

For a school project I need to know the meanings of the colors of the Italian flag(ie) red is for , white is for, and greens is for??????????? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.217.55.183 (talk) 04:29, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

See Flag of Italy. 75.121.168.218 04:47, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

The short version of which is "<shrug> nobody knows". SteveBaker 20:56, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Tomatoes, cheese and spinach? DuncanHill 21:13, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

We don't need such flippant answers. The green is obviously pesto. —Nricardo 23:17, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

For pizza Margherita it's Tomatoes, Mozzarella and Basil, but that's from the flag to the pizza, instead of the other way around. -- 72.33.121.200 19:18, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

electric locomotives,traction,signalling-the working principles

header 1	header 2	header 3
row 1, cell 1	row 1, cell 2	row 1, cell 3
row 2, cell 1	row 2, cell 2	row 2, cell 3

Is this the most enigmatic "question" ever? -- JackofOz 04:50, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

And did you deliberately add to the confusion by not indenting your post? It now looks like you asked the 'question'. Are you aiming for an aura of enigmaticism? DirkvdM 08:54, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

No. Yes, I guess it does (now fixed). No, my existing aura is more than adequate for that purpose. -- JackofOz 10:08, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Somebody fill out the table, for crying out loud. --Ouro (blah blah) 11:37, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps electric locomotive, traction, and railway signal will be of aid. — Lomn 12:53, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Possibly the answers were supposed to go it the table provided?87.102.94.194 15:21, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh! It's a table! I thought it was a map of a really small prison. SteveBaker 18:59, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

With, nevertheless, three prison guards? DirkvdM 06:29, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

co-operation agreement

Does Jahangir Nagar university have co-operation areement with the university of oslo in Norway? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.189.224.2 (talk) 05:56, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Dunno, I couldn't find anything like that - but they have a seriously awful website. Their webmaster clearly doesn't know the difference between local filepaths and URL's - so the page probably looks great from his computer - but nobody else on the planet can see it! [4] ! SteveBaker 19:23, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia equivalent of "set"

Out of pure, banal interest, I was wondering what the Wikipedia equivalent of "set" is. In other words, in the OED, the word "set" has the most different definitions of any word. What Wikipedia disambiguation has the most pages pointing away from it? Batmanand | Talk 09:23, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Single letter disambiguation pages, such as A (disambiguation), are very long; Do the links have to point the a page with the same name as the disambiguation page, or just any link in general? --antilived^{T | C | G} 10:40, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking, as with dictionaries, that they have to be pointing to the same word or phrase. Batmanand | Talk 13:14, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Then I give you ... John Smith. --Tagishsimon (talk) 13:26, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

• The answer is "Greatest Hits", with 299 articles. The first legit one (different meanings, rather than just being a glorified category) is "Big Brother", with 89. For the hell of it, I downloaded all the titles from Special:Allpages and counted which titles were most commonly disambiguated with parentheses. Here are the ones with 30 or more: User:TotoBaggins/Articles with 30 or more disambiguators. --Sean 17:25, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

  Most of the "Big Brother" entries are just versions of the reality TV series in different countries, though. I'd say the highest legit one in your list is probably "Angel", although the count for that does include several songs, films and fictional characters. And just what the heck is it with Romanian rivers named "Valea Mare", anyway? (Answer to self: apparently Râul Valea Mare means "Big Valley River" in Romanian, and also apparently Romanians aren't the most creative of people when it comes to naming rivers. Also, it seems a user has been going around creating stubs on every river in Romania here.) —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 23:54, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that would be the List of albums titled Greatest Hits page. -- JackofOz 23:59, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Cycle ball in America

I search clubs for Cycle ball in America. I play this sport in Germany, but there must exist some clubs in America. In this List I found two player from USA (Berry Charles / Yarbrough Kavin) but I don´t know where the are come from. Many thanks for every information. -- sk 12:30, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that this sport is virtually unknown in the United States. After some web searching, I could find only a few mentions of the sport as something strange that is played outside of the United States. In fact, I don't think that the sport has an established name in the English language. In the web, I saw it called "cycle ball", but also "bike ball" and "bicycle soccer". If it ever became popular in the United States, it would probably be known at first as "bicycle soccer". If there are American players, my guess is that they learned the sport in Europe and played on European teams. Marco polo 17:03, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Not quite the same, but since Marco responded, it's now completely on topic: Bicycle Polo. jeffjon 18:41, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Now that you mention it, I'd completely forgotten about that sport where you knock Marco around a field with a bent stick. :-) SteveBaker 18:52, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, they haven't forgotten that sport at my workplace. :-) Marco polo 16:07, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Cycle polo and Cycle ball are different sports! I only search clubs for Cycle ball. -- sk 08:27, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Gold tooth

What is the procedure for putting in a gold tooth? And how does it hold in there? I couldn't find an article on it. Keria 15:27, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Are we talking crowns or 'grills' here? You could have a peek at the article on both, they both cover methods of installation. Lanfear's Bane 15:32, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

See also Dental implant Rmhermen 15:46, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

B.Sc.

For the first time in my life, I have an academic degree. I am a Bachelor of Sciences. What can I actually do with this degree? I have absolutely no interest in pursuing an academic career, I want to work in software development in privately- or state-owned companies. JIP | Talk 17:17, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Basically you can get a job that requires a B.S., that's pretty much the point of it --froth^t 18:20, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Yep - there are lots of non-academic jobs that require a BSc before they'll even glance at your resume...especially in the field of software development where it's very tough indeed to get a job without having a degree. Is there any specific field within Software dev that takes your fancy? (I used to develop software for flight simulation - and nowadays I work in computer games - perhaps I can offer you some needed advice or answer questions about the practicalities of these kinds of careers.) SteveBaker 18:48, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I have got three jobs in software development without any academic degree. The first two by posting a Usenet message asking for a job. For the first, I got one reply, for the second, I got two. The third was by actually asking the company, which I got to know through a former co-worker who also works there. From what I've learned, in software development (particularly in the down-to-the-dirt coding I'm interested in) experience is much more valuable than official degrees or qualifications. At least in the private sector, I have never worked in the public sector. JIP | Talk 19:09, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah, so that's what the last bit of your question was about. I was already wondering what third option there might be. Btw, I'll refrain from making jokes about the abbreviation, because I'm sure they've all been done already. :) DirkvdM 06:34, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

To a point, you're right. In terms of what is actually valuable to a company, experience is critical - being a good programmer is all about having a million little snippets of code in your head that you can drop down onto the page without thinking about it. You can't teach more than a few hundred of those snippets - the rest is all down to experience. However - in terms of getting a job - you've got to get your resume seen and get yourself at an actual interview before your experience can really show through - and when 50 people apply for a job and the human resources people have to cull it down to 5 to come for an interview, they cull pretty brutally - and people with no degree get culled out soonest. You can sometimes get a job by happening to know someone or by being in the right place at the right time - but that's not a reliable way to find work. I honestly don't think that jobs where you program on the bare metal are any different. The work is certainly a heck of a lot easier than fighting with a gigantic pile of middleware and operating system (trust me, I've done both) - but even so, I think most employers work the same. It's not about the engineering - it's about the human resources people. Personally - as a programmer who has been a team leader - I'd settle for experience over a degree anytime (assuming programming is the only skill required - of course that's not often the case). SteveBaker 12:00, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

For the fear of being misunderstood, when I say "down-to-the-dirt" I don't mean "close to the metal", i.e. writing device drivers or something. I mean, when you have a great idea for a program, just go ahead and implement it, and don't speculate on how it might interest the scientific community. Specific CPU register operations are too low-level for me, and research on life's great mathematical problems is too high-level. What I want to worry myself about is what data structures and inheritance hierarchies I should use in which code. JIP | Talk 20:03, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm thinking steve was using "close to the metal" to mean the opposite of fighting with a pile of middleware and APIs, not necessarily computer engineering type work --froth^t 19:25, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah "close to the metal" means talking directly to hardware - the sort of thing you do when working on little microcontrollers without an operating system. I kinda assumed that's what was being talked about because those little one-off, small projects are very do-able by one self-taugh programmer.

Well, as to "when you have a great idea for a program, just go ahead and implement it" - er - YIKES!. That can be a very dangerous way to work. For anything beyond the very simplest programs, most companies are not going to be happy with you just jumping in and writing code without some kind of justification for the time and money spent on the work. Probable gains versus probable investment. Also, you're much more likely to be working in a team on some larger project and the various pieces have to dovetail together. Just diving in and implementing is rarely appreciated! In my last job, we had half a dozen programmers cooperating on a single program of about half a million lines of code - gradually assembled over several years. It's well beyond the ability of any single programmer to do that - and to do any part of it without extensive discussion and planning would certainly be the mark of an amateur! In my present job (I'm a video game programmer), we have around 2.4 million lines of software (about 2 million lines of C++ and 400,000 lines in various scripting languages) - we use the same basic code for a wide variety of games with half a dozen teams with a dozen programmers on each - and we have to be quite careful to keep things planned and under control or you'd get a very ugly mess in short order! There aren't many jobs out there where just getting an idea and throwing together a short solution is going to be required. That kind of thing happens (I do this for putting together a quick one-off tool) - but it's not likely to be a major part of a decently paying job. SteveBaker 04:05, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I didn't mean to just go straight to implementation without planning. What I meant was to skip all that research on whether this would be truly something worthy of note by the scientific community, and noting what bits relate to which scientific work where. Many of my ideas for an academic thesis have been returned by saying "good project, but the scientific community wouldn't be interested". The planning-implementation-testing cycle in production software development is what I like better. JIP | Talk 05:09, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Machine guns

How do belt fed machine guns get rounds into the chamber? After the first round is fired after you place the round on the belt has always confused ForeverDEAD 17:37, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Belt (firearm) has some info and an illustration. Not sure whether you're asking about the belt specifically, or autoloading guns in general. See also Semi-automatic firearm. Friday (talk) 17:40, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Belt-fed machine guns include a mechanism to move the belt along, bringing the next round in the belt into place to be loaded in the chamber. They use the energy of the recoil from the first round to open the chamber, eject the round, and feed the next one in. - Eron ^Talk 17:49, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, I knew how normal box fed worked just belt confused me ForeverDEAD 18:28, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Did Sir Roger Casement have a sister who became (or already was) a Catholic Nun?

I was brought up and educated in the North East of Yorkshire in England some 60 years ago, and have always believed, though I know not from what source, that one of my teachers in my Primary School (York Street Infants' School) who was a Nun who lived in a local Convent belonging to The Sisters of Mercy there, was the sister (sibling) of the renowned and executed-for-treason Irish Freedom Fighter (during the Irish Easter Uprising), Sir Roger Casement (the Knighthood being subsequently withdrawn by the then British Government). I have researched many online web pages about Sir Roger, but can find no mention of the Sister. Any info. would be most gratefully received. Thanks for any help forthcoming. 81.145.241.198 19:24, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Correction - I have just been informed it was not Sir Roger Casement - it was instead James Connolly,another Irish Easter Uprising martyr, whose sister Elizabeth subsequently went on to become a teaching Nun in my Primary School. Thanks anyway. 81.145.240.116 23:14, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Jolly Ranchers and Windows

Ok.. so me and a few friends went rolling and one of my friends decided to stick the jolly ranchers onto a few windows by licking them and placing them onto the windows.

We were told by someone else that all it would do was cement itself to the window but after awhile it would just slowly fade away with a lot of water.

So I was wondering if jolly ranchers really do any harm to windows. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.245.76.224 (talk) 20:53, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

From what I know, no. It's just sugar (etc.) and the window is made of glass, so no harm done, other than annoying the person who owns the window :) --PolarWolf ( grrr... ) 21:28, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

It sounds weirdly pretty, if one was deliberate about color choice. --Masamage ♫ 21:32, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Well... The girl who's window we put jolly ranchers on was really mad about it. Like really. (she didn't know it was us who did it.. long story. lol) and a few of her friends and her were saying that the saliva was acidic and could break the windows (haha) and one even said that putting saliva onto open wounds could cause you to get infected or die (which he said he saw on some educational show). yeah.. I have REALLY smart classmates let me tell you. lol.

But the girl's mom is upset about it and I think it might be because it left behind some of the coloring on the windows because i know they got the jolly ranchers off. But I don't know.

It might be a nice idea to offer to clean their windows as a way of apologising. DuncanHill 22:47, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, saliva is not really acidic to any degree that can affect glass (I don't know its ph off hand but it can't be very high or you'd know it if it, say, got on your hands, etc.). Perhaps her friends were mistaking the fact that saliva contains enzymes which can break down food with the fact that it is acidic. In any case, it's probably a mess to clean up, but I don't think it can permanently damage the glass. Some soap and hot water should take it off with a bit of friction. --24.147.86.187 23:06, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

The average pH of human saliva is around 6.5. That's considerably less acidic than rainwater. FiggyBee 01:24, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Thought experiment: What to they make laboratory flasks and test tubes out of? Glass maybe? So how resistant to acid do you think glass is? No, there is no conceivable ingredient in candy that's going to eat away at a window. It's going to go away as soon as there is enough water around because most of whats in the candy dissolves in water. The only possible way it could harm the window would be some kind of bizarre thermal thing where maybe the glass wants to expand or contract and the candy doesn't or something - which could just maybe crack the glass - but I really seriously doubt that. SteveBaker 12:06, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

That actually sounds like a very legitimate concern, but I'm sure modern glass is well-treated to avoid thermal expansion --froth^t 19:29, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Creating pages in a different way

Is it possible to create the same page but in a different light?

Remember, what looks good to me, is also looking good to you. Ericthebrainiac 22:04, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean (or why you are linking so many words), but if you are asking, can there be two versions of a page on the same subject in Wikipedia, portraying it in different ways?, the answer is "no, that isn't supposed to be allowed," but as Wikipedia is large and decentralized you can sometimes get things of that nature, and there is always going to be case that articles will have different slants depending on the specificity of the subject matter (an article on IQ differences among races is going to spend a lot more time presuming IQ differences of some sort than an article about the social construction of race would; in theory these are not at all incompatible but in practice the articles get edited by different editors, people with different agendas come along, and even a well-disciplined, good-faith effort towards NPOV will lead to two apparently contradictory articles). But in general Wikipedia's organizational policies subscribe to something of a nested-but-atomic theory of knowledge, whereby any given thing should be represented once specifically but be part of a series of nested articles of greater and lesser specificity and/or greater and lesser divergence from topic. If that makes any sense. Very short answer: don't make duplicate articles with difference slants. --24.147.86.187 23:03, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

The one case I am aware of that takes different approaches to the same topic is General relativity vs. Introduction to general relativity. Unless you're dealing with something as complex as space-time however, this probably isn't necessary. --Ybbor^Talk 01:41, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

About that second line, browsers are not wysiwyg, so no. DirkvdM 06:37, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

You make be interested in WP:POVFORK --froth^t 19:07, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Hydromorphone abuse?

I hope this isn't a medical question. After surgery of a broken foot, doctors prescribed me some pills Hydromorphone painkillers. Seeing as the name contains part of the word "morphine", I became curious. What is the difference between hydromorphone and morphine that inclines doctors to prescribe to me hydromorphone instead of morphine? Per mass, how does hydromorphone compare with pure morphine in terms of potency? Thanks. Acceptable 22:54, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Of course it's a medical question. You mean you hope it won't get deleted. DirkvdM 06:41, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

It's a medical question, but it's not a medical advice question - it's not describing symptoms or asking for a diagnosis or course of action. It's just asking for information that could be found in a pharmacy reference book. Anyway, our article on hydromorphone seems to contain most of the answers. Gandalf61 09:50, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I know, I was just teasing. DirkvdM 06:30, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Polystyrene foam

My laying hens love eating styrene foam.Is it harmful to them and can it be harmful to humans by eating the eggs or flesh of the poultry? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.61.206.171 (talk) 23:07, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

You may want to read the relevant section of our Polystyrene article (but note that it's uncited, so take it with a grain of salt). That said, since it is commonly used to package food, I doubt it'll release anything acutely poisonous. As for what it does to the chickens, I'd recommend asking a veterinarian. I wouldn't really expect it to be good for their health, though. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 00:08, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Original research warning!! I have had chickens for a couple years now. In the last house I lived in they pecked away at the foam insulation that skirted the house. They didn't seem to be affected by it and neither were the eggs. They stopped doing it when we moved. We also had to replace those panels before we got hosed on our security deposit... but it was cheaper to replace the panels. Dismas|^(talk) 03:50, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Some foam peanuts are actually cornstarch even though they look like polystyrene, so they are edible (but rather bland).--Shantavira|^{feed me} 10:14, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Polystyrene is not in any way biodegradable - which means that the chickens can't digest it. This is both good news and bad news. It means that you aren't going to suffer from eating eggs or flesh from these chickens. However it's also not good news for the chicken because it can't digest the plastic. There was a piece on NPR the other day about some kind of seabirds off on some remote island whom researchers were concerned about (I don't recall the details - sorry) - they discovered that the young birds had their stomachs partially filled with plastic which just sat there because they couldn't digest it and it didn't pass out of their gut naturally. This reduced the volume of the bird's stomach and prevented them from getting adequate nutrition. So I think you should keep the plastic away from the chickens if you want them to remain fat and juicy and to lay decent eggs - but I don't think you have to worry for your own safety. SteveBaker 12:16, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

• They were talking about the Great Pacific Garbage Patch. As for the chickens, maybe you should give them a supply of small stones, which I believe they like to eat as a kind of digestif. Presumably the instinct to do so is what's got them eating your styrofoam. --Sean 13:03, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Chickens will naturally seek out those "stones" from the ground if they aren't kept in cages and have access to dirt. For those kept in cages, they need some form of poultry grit (we probably don't have a link to that since it would be a dict def at most) in order to help digest grain. Grain and grit are mixed together in the chicken's gizzard. The grit helps break down the grain into more digestible pieces since chickens don't have teeth to chew their food. Dismas|^(talk) 13:54, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

value of a book

what is the value of the book called the rosary by Florence L. Barclay first edittion purple hard cover. excellent condition 1911 printed by G.P.Putnam's sons New York and London the nickerbocker press and it has been signed on the inside cover using old ink well ink and feather in fancy style writting and it reads as to Mrs Margaret Higgins from George april 22/11 thank you hurmit2003 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.69.233.123 (talk) 23:44, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Is this it?

I don't think there is any way for anyone here to find a good answer for this question. I would take the book to a specialist at book valuation. The book isn't signed by the author - so I doubt it has any special value in that regard. Some people collect first editions though - so that might add to its value. But since the book was published in 1909 - and yours is dated 1911 - it's hard to see how it could be a first edition?!? We have an article about Florence L. Barclay and about the book The Rosary - which was a best seller in 1910. This page has much more information about printing runs and publishers. You need an expert to value it though - perhaps it's worth emailing the address at the bottom of that website? SteveBaker 12:26, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

everything that describes this book in the 20th century american best sellers research matches the book I have. it has a linnen cloth sticthed over the book to protect the purple book. yes the picture you asked if it was the book I have. it is the same book but my book is in better condition it is not all warn out.and the dates on it is the same it was published in 1909 but the writting sighned in the front cover to mrs margaret higgins from george has 1911. you have to see it to belive it. thank you hurmit2003 the only difference I see is my Book has embroided floral design made like a frame around the tital and author on the front cover.

Yeah - so the copy you have was published in 1909 - but signed two years later. That makes sense. Well, maybe it's worth something - it's hard to know. You need a book expert. SteveBaker 03:49, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

October 5

Laying an egg

Does it hurt when laying an egg? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.121.209 (talk) 01:22, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I doubt anyone here has any experience... FiggyBee 01:29, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Aw c'mon, dont be a chicken! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.121.209 (talk) 01:53, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

That's interesting. It's probably something that can be studied; whether the pain receptors are active during egg-laying, or whether the critter gives signs of being distressed. I don't know the relative size of egg to cloaca, but since it hurts a lot when humans give birth, it probably hurts at least a little for egg-laying creatures. (Except, you know. Fish.) --Masamage ♫ 06:02, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I thought about that too at first, but I believe that humans are somewhat of an exception here because of our big heads, combined with the way we walk; a larger opening would require a layout of the pelvis that would make walking upright more difficult. Not sure about the second bit, but the big head is certainly a factor. However, chickens are also exceptional in that they are bred (ie not 'natural'). In casu to produce very big eggs, which is rather similar to the big head thing. Might an indicator be how many chickens die during 'childbirth'? DirkvdM 06:51, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Said opening gets much, much larger during childbirth, of course. Most of the worst pain is from the contractions, not the actual birth. --Masamage ♫ 17:20, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Corollary: Perhaps it could be compared to childbirth? The opinions are divided as to the objective level of pain that is inflicted upon the mother, maybe it's similar? (oh, just read Masamage's answer above to the end) --Ouro (blah blah) 08:31, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know the answer but maybe this anecdote can help somebody determine whether it is painful or not. I saw once on TV a huge chicken egg, it appeared to double in width an average one. It looked really massive. After showing the egg, the farmer showed the ass of the prodigious chicken. The animal had the anal sphincters completely destroyed. --Taraborn 09:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

• That chicken's doing it wrong. --Sean 13:04, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

That's not something you want to read whilst having your breakfast :( Lemon martini 11:15, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the whole chicken vs. human debate, humans can only have one child every nine or so months. That's assuming they become pregnant immediately following the birth of the previous child of course. But chickens lay an egg a day (roughly, I know they take a day or two break between laying clutches). Their bodies are used to poppin' one of those out more often than a human is a child. The first couple may be hard for the chicken but beyond that I would think it becomes old hat. Although, when a chicken first starts to lay eggs, the eggs aren't as large as they will eventually become. When a chicken first starts laying eggs, those eggs are only half the size of eggs that they will lay once they mature fully. I've even checked our nest boxes here at home to find eggs no larger than a robin's egg (maybe an inch long). Dismas|^(talk) 13:44, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

• I agree. Also, eggs are much more "vagidynamic" than small humans. I recently watched an egg emerge from a chicken (into my hand!), and there was no visible difficulty or straining, and the chicken didn't make any noise. I don't believe it was painful. --Sean 13:58, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

They will occaisionally cluck when it's done but that's about it. Dismas|^(talk) 14:20, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Army field surgeon vs hospital surgeon

How does a US army field medic (corpsman?) compare with a general/trauma surgeon found in US hospital in respect to years of experience and general quality? Thanks. Acceptable 01:29, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

A corpsman is a Navy medic. But a field medic or a corpsman is like an EMT. A surgeon is a doctor with several additional years of training. Rmhermen 02:34, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

On a battlefield, would an Army field medic be certified to perform surgery on injured soldiers? Acceptable 15:48, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

As for years of experience, a trauma surgeon is going to have much more overall experience than your average army medic. As for what a medic is trained to do... U.S. combat medics are trained and expected to perform a wide range of procedures, including cricothyroidotomy, needle-chest thorentesis (we don't have an article on that?), intubation, insertion of a chest tube, administration of cardiac drugs, and, in only the most drastic of circumstances, a field amputation. They are expected to be able to identify when each of these procedures is called for, to perform the procedures without assistance or supervision of any sort, and without having to request authorization to do so. In the civilian world these procedures are restricted to certain highly trained/certified specialties. A combat medic might be the only friendly medical assistance for many hundreds of miles, and as such they need to be trained to do practically everything. I am now a civilian and work in a hospital. At my hospital only physicians may insert chest tubes and even they do not intubate. There are respiratory specialists who handle intubation. The role of a combat medic is not to do everything for the patient, but to stabilize the patient for transport to a field hospital where they can recieve proper treatment by trauma specialists. Due to the very lethal nature of battlefield hazards, however, that means that a medic is expected to perform procedures that, in the civilian world, are restricted to physicians and other specialties. 152.16.59.190 01:18, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Women heads of government in Islamic nations

A woman holding the premiership of an Islamic country seems like a contradiction. Yet, it's happened in places like Pakistan and Indonesia. Given the suppression of women in public life in these countries, how is it acceptable to men that they lead the country? 75.36.37.72 01:53, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

See Women and Islam#Women and politics and also Female political leaders in Islam and in Muslim-majority countries. It is interesting that there is also a historical precedent of Islamic women involved in politics, for instance Aisha, Ume Warqa, Samra Binte Wahaib, Razia Sultana, Delhi Sultanate, and Shajar al-Durr. Never the less there is a disputed Sunni hadith, Sahih al-Bukhari, 5:59:709, which condemns a woman’s involvement in politics. --S.dedalus 02:10, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Where did you get that quote? The article says the hadith says "people with a female ruler will never be successful". Which is not quite the same. And if you want worse stuff said about women, you might as well look at the bible - stoning and such. The decisive thing here is that these scriptures are very old, written in a period with completely different beliefs. DirkvdM 07:25, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Defensive much? :) Given the quote you provided I'd say S.dedalus' paraphrase was fairly accurate, or at least a logical extrapolation; saying it's not quite the same sounds like hair-splitting. Given the initial question, your comparison to the bible is a bit of a non sequitur and sounds like trying to change the subject; though if you're arguing that both religions contain elements of sexism and misogyny, I wont disagree. Finally, considering that many adherents of these religions believe in their scripture's inerrancy (or some variation thereof) I'd hardly say that being able to view them in their historical and cultural contexts is "the decisive thing". According to many, many people we are talking about the "Living Word of God" not some cultural relics whose outdated notions of sexual equality are easily cast aside in favor of a more enlightened view. 38.112.225.84 13:57, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Suppression of women in public life in 'these' countries? Which countries? Indonesia? Where did you get that idea? Have you been there? You must have some very strong indications for this (which I haven't seen when I was there) because the one indication you present goes against it. Or are you just falling for the hype? I know it takes a strong mind to resist that, but think about it. Apart from what you've been seeing on tv, what do you really know? You know that these countries have had a female leader, something that hasn't happened yet in many of the 'advanced' female-friendly countries in the West. Instead you might wonder why that is. Take the biggest example, the US. There has not been a single female (or black, or gay, or ... ?) president yet and the congress only has 16% women. Don't believe the hype. Women are second rate citizens the world over. And in as far as religion is a decisive factor, it's not quite unique to to islam. If fanatic christians were scrutinised as much as fanatic muslims, that would also open up a pile of filth. Recently, concerning islam, the handful of bad muslims get all the attention, while the handful of bad christians get more and more votes. DirkvdM 07:14, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Indeed I agree with you DirkvdM that Christianity is also very hard on women and that most western nations include plenty of sexism. However, you cannot deny that Islamic country often include a huge amount of mistreatment of woman (and again I understand that is not necessarily related to Islam, but is in some cases cultural or political). I do not say this though any personal bias towards Islam; I simply want to point out that the OP’s question is entirely valid. For instance Female genital cutting, Child marriage, Sex segregation, and Honor killing are relatively common in many predominantly Islamic countries. Then there are the passages in the Qur’an: An-Nisa, 34, Surah an-Nur ayah 31, ^{[Quran 33:58]}, ^{[Quran 2:282]}, ^{[Quran 4:34]}, and ^{[Quran 2:228]}. In Iran thousands of woman have been arrested or warned for dressing inappropriately (i.e. not wearing a hijab or not wearing one “properly”) [5]. Indeed the Bible contains many equally sexist passages and western society includes some shocking examples of violence towards women, but this question is not about the Bible. --S.dedalus 23:04, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Again...I agree the original questioner seems to be falling prey to the seemingly common inability of many Westerners (read: Americans) to distinguish between various Muslim countries, groups and ideologies. Careful reading up on the subject would indeed help allay some of these misconceptions. A country with a predominately Muslim population does not necessarily mean the government is a fundamentalist theocracy or follows, for example, Wahabism.

In this context, saying that, "women are second rate citizens the world over", is rather disingenuous. While in a general sense one could argue the truth of this statement, it does not follow that therefore all countries' treatment of women is equally bad. Women here in America, for example, have much greater freedom, equality and opportunity than their counterparts in, say, Saudi Arabia. So, soapboxing aside, I'd agree with you that the questioner has much room to expand his knowledge of Islam and its various incarnations both political and religious. 38.112.225.84 14:13, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

• FYI Dirk: in English there is a distinction between "second rate citizen" and "second class citizen". The former means that the women are citizens of poorer quality, while the latter means that their citizenship (rights, etc.) is of poorer quality. --Sean 14:54, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Really, Sean? I know quite a few women who'd probably dispute that. -- JackofOz 00:45, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

• I think it's unfair to jump on the questioner just for adding Indonesia to the mix, when it really is a curiosity that a place like Pakistan, where the situation for women is indeed horrible, can elect a female leader, while places like the US and France, where the situation for women is incomparably better, have not yet managed to do so. --Sean 15:09, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

If the question is about Indonesia and Pakistan, then why do you think it is 'really' about Pakistan? I just react to the country mentioned that I know about (and a fair bit at that). I haven't been to Pakistan yet. DirkvdM 07:02, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Concerning the little misquote - I assume there were no bad intentions on the part of dedalus, but there is a danger. Such little misquotes are the basis of gossip, and worse in this case, given the present tense relationships between western and middle eastern countries, which are often linked to islam (more than to christianity). Someone makes something sound ever so slightly worse, which gives room for the next person to make it slightly worse still. Let this pass on about ten times and the last story might be that women with political aspirations should be punished. Especially with sensitive subjects that can easily in a certain environment spin off in one specific direction, one should be careful not to misquote.

Concerning the comparison with christianity. That is totally valid. If things were the same 'here' (assuming for the moment all western participants in this discussion) then they wouldn't have asked the question (in that way). But my major point was that there was a strong suggestion that islam is specifically bad to women and that should show in public life. However, I saw no such indications when I was in Indonesia, the biggest muslim country in the world. So it constituted a useful answer. So far for the defensive bit. :)

Dedalus, as you pointed out, culture has a lot to do with this. I take that further and say it's the decisive factor. Take the different versions and interpretations of christianity (again that, because it's closer to home for most here). It's the same religion, yet it is interpreted in wildly varying ways. Most distinctively, in cities it is much more liberally interpreted than in rural areas. The bigger (or closer by) the city or the more rural the area, the less respectively more strictly religion is interpreted. Same with islam in Turkey and Morocco, or example. This is not a coincidence. Culture determines how the holy book is interpreted. Religion is used as an excuse, as as a tool to cast cultural preconceptions in concrete. For example, Indonesians are very gentle and forgiving people. So their interpretation of islam is also very mellow. Of course there are occasional 'burps', even riots, which might have a religious link, but it's a very big country, so that makes sense. (It may also have to do with amok, letting all that restraint loose occasionally, but that's going a bit too far off-topic.) DirkvdM 07:02, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, there are now, perhaps, a couple hundred English translations of the Qur’an so I think anyone who wants to find a negative connotation of Islam will find it regardless. However we can only hope that people will click on the link and read the passages in question for themselves. After all, even within Islam there is a wide variation in how the scripture is interpreted. --S.dedalus 14:38, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I'll grant you your point, DirkvdM (you're welcome), about the danger of paraphrasing a source quote in a particular way and having that become the basis of spiraling misconceptions about a religion and how it's actually interpreted and practiced by its adherents. Again though, I'd be careful about your assumption of culture as the decisive/defining factor in religious interpretation. I think culture and religion interact with each other in complex ways and it's not always accurate to view one acting on the other in a straightforward and linear way; rather they often inform and act on each other in rather complex ways. Also, I don't think you can get away from the fact that an arguement can be made that a certain degree of patriarchal male-oriented thinking is built into both Christianity and Islam and that this influence will manifest itself, sometimes subtly, sometimes not, even in relatively "liberal" cultures such as Indonesian and American. Are the religious texts of Christianity and Islam inherently incompatible with truly egalitarian ideals? I don't know, but I think it would require some pretty creative re-imaginings/interpretations of the source texts, which would considerably alter the religions from how they were orginally conceived (being of course human products of particular historical periods, incorporating all the prejudices and mores of the people/period in which they were created). Of course we can see that such alterations have happened and continue to, albeit seemingly at an excruciatingly slow pace (due probably to the inherently revelatory nature of these religions), in large part informed by various culture preferences and differences. 38.112.225.84 19:43, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that culture and religion influence each other, both ways, but I think the influence of culture on religion is much larger, with religion being just an excuse for all sorts of things that are really cultural. But the slow change of societies is indeed probably for a large part caused by religious conservatism. A good example of that is the sudden jerk forward in the West when the influence of the church started fading. So for progress (or lack thereof) the influence of religion is probably indeed the greatest. DirkvdM 18:27, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the original question, in relation to Pakistan especially, is an interesting one. I personally am not knowledgable enough about the specifics of that country to satisfactorily answer it, but I'd be interested to hear any informed theory or opinion on the subject. I too find it to be a bit perplexing of a phenomenon and somewhat contradictory in light of certain Pakistani practices concerning the treatment of women (the lead of the article Sean linked to refers to the, "systemic subordination" of women to men). Or, maybe, as an American I'm just slightly embarassed by their having elected a female president before we have (wait!, is that why the did it) :). 38.112.225.84 19:56, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

The sailing schedule in 1967-1968 for the Italian Line passenger ship Cristoforo Colombo

My family (Margaret MacNeil, Mary MacNeil, Dennis MacNeil, Susan MacNeil, Katherine MacNeil and an employee Mafalda Bergamo, sailed on this ship to return to the US after several years in Italy. They would have arrived in New York City in June, 1967 or 1968. I'm wondering if any of the passenger manifests from the Cristoforo Colombo are available for reseach. I realize that it is too much to expect that they might be online, but if there is an archive available I'd appreciate any contact info available. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.204.241.238 (talk) 02:17, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

• The sailing schedule is easy to find, or at least the arrival and departure dates from any ship are; the New York Times online archives include logs for all ships. I searched for "Cristoforo Colombo" in 1967-1968 and found, for example, that it arrived in NY on June 14, 1967, and departed for Gibraltar the following day. Passenger manifests, I have no idea. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 15:14, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

how'd this guy get off so light?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Thomas_Sweeney

would court records tell why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.217.195.89 (talk) 04:20, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

He was convicted of Voluntary manslaughter not murder. In the US that carries a maximum sentence of 10 years in prison. This leniency is presumably because voluntary manslaughter is carried out under “circumstances that would cause a reasonable person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed.” --S.dedalus 05:49, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

That is a federal sentencing guideline for trials in federal courts. Sweeney was convicted in California court where the maximum may be different. (This link says 11 years max.[6], this one says 16 years[7]) Rmhermen 06:57, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I found: "193. (a) Voluntary manslaughter is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for 3, 6, or 11 years." from CALIFORNIA CODES PENAL CODE SECTION 187-199 [8] The short sentence is for mitigating circumstances, the midle for ordinary, the longest for aggraved circumstances (like previous violent convictions). Rmhermen 07:04, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Planning for a bleak future

Assuming a worst case scenario in the future where:

1. Global warming has reached or exceeded predicted levels.
2. The rising sea level has reached or exceeded predicted levels
3. War, rioting, and economic chaos are universal (perhaps caused by dwindling oil supplies).
4. Worldwide communication and transport are restricted or nonexistent.
5. Epidemics of diseases like Bird flu, Smallpox and Ebola are common.

What would be the best and safest geographic location to be at? Sources would be appreciated, but are not required. Thanks --S.dedalus 06:34, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Global warfare and disease epidemics? The moon would be my favourite. FiggyBee 07:02, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Haha! I promise I won’t sue Wikipedia in a hundred years if I die from a combination of mob violence, drowning, Ebola, and heatstroke as a result of bad advice. :) --S.dedalus 07:05, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

War, rioting and economic chaos have always been a part of human societies. We actually see less of the first two in the West since WWII (demonstrations are nothing compared to riots in the times of kings and all-out capitalism). So the West is a good place to be now. Worldwide communication and transport have never been as big as they are now. People complain too much. We've never had it so good (materially speaking, at least). Concerning diseases, I don't know if they're more common these days (and am curious). On the one hand we have better medical care, but on the other hand overpopulation and increased intercontinental transportation and in the case of lifestock inbreeding and huge monocultures are good breeding grounds for epidemics. I don't know which of these is a stronger factor. Which leaves global warming. And there again, it's best to be in a rich country, which has the means to fight the effects of it. DirkvdM 07:47, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Antarctica? --Masamage ♫ 07:51, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

As long as you can find bare rock to build on- I wouldn't want to build on the snow pack in a global warming scenario.. --froth^t 19:04, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Damn, I now see I've misread the question. You're asking 'what if'. But the answer remains the same, I suppose. Be where the money is. Or maybe not? You are in part talking about the breakdown of what those rich societies are built on. So maybe somewhere where people aren't dependent on it and can still 'live off the land' would be better then. Yesterday I watched a documentary (tribe) about the Penan, some of whom still live as hunters/gatherers. They're also very friendly and welcoming people. Their habitat is largely destroyed, though. Transportation breaking down would be a real saviour for the little remaining primary lowland rainforest. But the disaster would then have to strike very soon, before that is also gone. And of course we couldn't all go there, but I doubt if many would want to (thinking they're dangerous savages, the opposite of which is true). Of course there is one problem with your question. If worldwide transportation has broken down, how would you get there? DirkvdM 07:57, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Hopefully we’d all have so warning before thing got that bad. Probably several years. --S.dedalus 01:05, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

We'd all have The same Warning. If you aren't ready by then you're in the same position as everybody else.--APL 20:07, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Anywhere as long as you are Emperor of the World. 81.241.103.75 08:12, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Let's see. You'd want a large, easily defended, self-sufficient, impregnable structure, well above sea-level, with its own water supply, and protection against biological and chemical contamination. Sounds like Cheyenne Mountain to me. Gandalf61 09:35, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

1. Global warming has reached or exceeded predicted levels. - So not close to the equator.
2. The rising sea level has reached or exceeded predicted levels - Inland and 30' above sea level (at least)
3. War, rioting, and economic chaos are universal (perhaps caused by dwindling oil supplies). - So you need to be away from where other people are likely to be - and yet be self-sufficient so you can survive economic chaos.
4. Worldwide communication and transport are restricted or nonexistent. - Since you need to be away from the rioting, this may actually help you stay away from those people.
5. Epidemics of diseases like Bird flu, Smallpox and Ebola are common. - If civilisation has collapsed, forget about modern medicine - so, again, you need to be far away (and out of reach) of other people.

So an otherwise more or less uninhabited island - at a reasonable distance from the equator - high enough to stay out of the way of rising sea levels - but with enough arable land and a sensible enough climate to make subsistance farming possible. Tricky. Islands that are high enough above the ocean to avoid the rising sea levels tend to be pretty rocky - which is not good for farming. This is really a problem in general because most fertile land came to be that way because of being in the flood plain of a large, sluggish river...sadly, those are the places that will be under the ocean if there is a large sea level rise. Another problem is that an awful lot of other people are going to be having the same idea - so the really good places may turn out to be battlegrounds anyway. For that reason, it might be worth looking for someplace livable - but sub-optimal. SteveBaker 12:42, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for this exceptional analysis. It helps to know generally what to look for. Perhaps the New Zealand suggestion bellow would be such a place? --S.dedalus 01:03, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Also, a lot of answers will presuppose some kind of survivalist skillset, so if you're lacking in this area you might want to brush up. If you are truly worried about such scenarios I'd also stress the importance of preparation; it's never too early to start caching :). Personally, I'm looking at the Desolation Sound as my post-apocalyptic destination of choice. All the fish and game you could want for, with extremely remote locations, many accesible only by boat. 38.112.225.84 14:21, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

That could be a good choice. I've often considered the interior part of New Zealand's South Island - perhaps the area around Wanaka as a possibility. - Eron ^Talk 14:37, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I've been thinking along similar lines for a few years now. I disagree that survivalism is a realistic option and would counsel against a very remote location. No individual or family can really be sulf-sufficient in maintaining tools, equipment, and anything metal, and it would be extremely difficult for a single family to be really self-sufficient in food and clothing. For this reason, I think it would be wise to seek not just a relatively safe location but also a community that is likely to 1) welcome strangers and 2) stand together in providing community security and mutual aid. Of course, if you have a couple hundred friends with a diverse skill set, you could found such a community, but this is not an option for most. Given these criteria, I think that the best choice would be a small town in a somewhat isolated location, but not a small town that is too insular or tight-knit for an outsider to become a part of the community. In terms of avoiding nuclear fallout, a location in the South Pacific, such as New Zealand, is probably ideal, and it has a tradition of immigration that probably works in an immigrant's favor, particularly if the immigrant can manage to look and more or less act like a native New Zealander. Because New Zealand is VERY far from everyone I know and love and because it would take some effort for me to immigrate to New Zealand legally, I personally am considering a locale in Canada that I prefer not to name. Marco polo 16:24, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Tell us!!!! (P.S. I was just kidding about Desolation Sound area, it would be terrible place to retreat to, I meant the Yukon) I agree that a hard-core hermit style survivalism scenario is not optimal for the reasons you list and a few others to boot. Nevertheless, certain skills, many of which roughly fall within the rubric of "survivalism", would be indespensible to a required self-sufficiency (individual or small-community wise) in the proposed scenarios. Skills which are notably absent for many of us used to modern convenience. Also, an extremely important factor which you should not neglect to consider in lurid detail is: Choosing the right mate(s) to repopulate the planet with. Think, birthing hips, etc... 38.112.225.84 17:41, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

With the Adam and Eve scenario we’d all die from inbreeding anyway. :) What kind of survivalist skills were you thinking of? Agriculture? Medicine? --S.dedalus 01:12, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd go with the Canadian Prairies. It's one of the areas where civilization is likely to thrive: warmer temperatures will make them fertile farmland; there's access to the Athabasca tar sands, the iron and copper mines of the Michigan Upper Peninsula, the heavy industry of Ontario, the hydroelectricity of Quebec, and many other benefits. --Carnildo 19:46, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

That’s a good point. The only disadvantage is that it’s right in the “no man’s land” between Russia and America if there were another cold war. --S.dedalus 01:14, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I've never really understood survivalists. In times and places of unrest, breakdown of society, or warfare, big cities have always been the place to be. Sitting on a cache of supplies in the middle of nowhere sounds like a recipe for getting slaughtered. FiggyBee 04:44, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Survival is about staying alive without a cache of supplies. Such as there are in cities. Some Yanks have 'stolen' the word to mean something else. I ended up with a small group of those in California. Very friendly people, until I mentioned just what you said. If you build up stocks, then how are you going to defend yourself against the lazy sort of people who prefer to take in stead of make. That suggestion pretty much pissed off the 'leader'. probably because he was afraid to lose his flock. DirkvdM 08:08, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Assuming global warming, tropical areas would generally be a bad choice (although there will be exceptions). But if you have little means to warm yourself in winter then you shouldn't go for cold areas either (I believe quite a lot of wild west trappers froze to death in their cabins). So a moderate climate seems like the best choice. Of course, there, the climate is also likely to change, so one can not count on plentiful fish or game or fruit or whatever still being there. Unless the ecology in the area is very varied, so that something will survive, possibly by moving to a different area. So definitely not a 'monoculture' like a prairie. The greatest biodiversity is in lowland tropical rainforests. They're in the tropics (naturally), but they also 'make their own weather' it is said, so maybe they won't be too hard hit by climate change (if any is left after all the logging, that is).

So apart from lowland rainforests, the tropics are out. And most of North America, South Africa, Australia and East Asia seem bad choices for having too little variation. Which leaves the southern half of South America, Europe (not the south, which will dry out, nor the north, which is too cold), possibly Madagascar and (yes, again) New Zealand. Something that really struck me in New Zealand was the enormous natural variation. On the Heaphy Track, I walked through four very distinct ecologies in one single day! (See the last section of the article.) After which I ended up in the friendly town of Karamea (no, not the bloody song), which is at the end of a road, so nicely isolated. No large supplies for looters, nor any easy means to get there, so not worth their while. Still, there already is a small town for a 'base', the means to live off the natural surroundings and the locals (not too many) who will know what to find where (Kiwis really dig their natural surroundings). Don't all come there. (Well, ok, you guys are welcome :) ). DirkvdM 08:08, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

world

What is the length of the English Channel in kilometers?

• What is the world's oldest known city?

• Who was the first Republican President of America?

• Which country is known as Sugar Bowl of the world?

• Name the founder of Red Cross Society? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.124.160.211 (talk) 09:44, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Question 2: Damascus. Question 3: Abraham Lincoln. Rhinoracer 10:30, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Question 1 The boundries are too blurred to define the length.--88.111.120.104 12:39, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

You really should do your own basic searches before coming here. All but one of these answers can be found with the simplest of Wikipedia searches.

• Henry Dunant founded the Red Cross (it's right there in Red Cross.
• The greatest quantity of sugar comes from Latin America, the United States, the Caribbean nations, and the Far East (that's in Sugar). I couldn't find any references to "The Sugar Bowl of the World" that seem pertinant - but if I had to guess, I'd say Barbados.
• The English channel is 560 km (350 miles) long (that's from English Channel) - I agree with 88.111.120.104 that the limits of the channel are ill-defined, but that's a reasonable figure.

SteveBaker 12:55, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

The answer to question three could have easily been found in the introduction to Republican Party (United States). Dismas|^(talk) 13:05, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd be careful about Damascus. It's generally regarded as the oldest continuously inhabited city, but I'd bet there are ruined cities that are older and that are known to us. -- JackofOz 14:56, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Isn't the oldest city Jericho? Rmhermen 15:08, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Ur of the Chaldees anyone? DuncanHill 15:50, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget about Çatalhöyük. -- 72.33.121.200 19:09, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Hey, questioner, are you going to make a donation to WP if you win the quiz? 86.17.50.12 17:58, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Well done 72.33.121.200 how could I have forgotten Çatalhöyük! DuncanHill 19:14, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Our articles on Jerico, Ur/Caldees and Catalhoyuk place all three more recently than Damascus. SteveBaker 22:25, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that the articles List of oldest continuously inhabited cities is a good place to start. Jon513 15:39, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Note that the questioner does not specify that the city need be continuously inhabited, nor, indeed, inhabited today. --Dweller 08:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Damascus article says the city was founded, 8000-1000 BC. Babylon cites "The earliest source to mention Babylon may be a dated tablet of the reign of Sargon of Akkad (ca. 24th century BC short chr.)." Nineveh is also pretty ancient.

I think you'll find this question difficult to answer. Perhaps your best answer is actually "Enoch" (See Genesis 4:17) --Dweller 08:53, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

What does a trader do, really?

What is it really a trader (a stock trader, say) does to earn their living? It's obviously not simply pushing the buttons and clicking the mouse, so I conclude that they are actually taking decisions of what to buy and sell. But how can educated decisions be made in a few seconds (cause that's often the case, right?)? One might then imagine that they set up rules for themselves in advance to make the decision easy, like "When the price exceeds this value, I sell." or "When this quantity that I calculate goes below this other value, I sell.". If that is the answer, all those trades could (and should) be handled by a computer instead. So, what do they do, really? 130.237.48.27 10:58, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

What you're sort of describing is day trading and not everyone engages in that type of trading. People like stock brokers do make trades but they do it after quite a bit of research and requests from their clients. Perhaps those links will help you. Dismas|^(talk) 13:02, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

They have to read company prospectuses, research the past record of the company, looks at annual investor reports, look at market trends in their business sector, investigate their competitors, what technology is doing to their market, the track record of their managers, the state of pay in that sector of the market, the probable cost of raw materials in the future, etc. They aren't making decisions in a few seconds - they've already figured out which stocks to watch for and what they are worth. The 'snap decisions' are likely to be based on research they did in advance 'just in case'. Setting up those rules can often now be automated - you can certainly set up automatic buy and sell orders that are triggered on a specific set of conditions. However, "When the price exceeds the value" entails you knowing what the "value" is. Also, it's not the value NOW (because that's just the price) - it's the value at some time in the future that matters - and worse still, it's not just a matter of whether it'll be worth more - it's a matter of whether the time it takes to grow by a certain amount will exceed the probably return from other ways to invest the money. I think you are dramatically underestimating the work that is involved in doing this well. SteveBaker 13:08, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

(After edit conflict) Yes, a stock trader definitely does a lot more than just pushing buttons. A professional stock trader spends a lot of time watching the markets and talking to their counterparts in other firms, to work out who is likely to want to buy stock X and who is likely to want to sell stock Y. Trades themselves involve a degree of negotiation, so developing working relationships with other traders is important. Although a trader may work within a set of objective rules most of the time (although they may not be able to articulate them), a good trader will also recognise exceptional circumstances in which they should ignore the rules. A trader may occassionally be taking rapid, almost instinctive, decisions, but their instincts are based on years of experience - like a racing driver, airline pilot or surgeon. And even in more automated, humdrum and run-of-the-mill markets, it is often cheaper for a firm to hire a bunch of junior traders than to develop and maintain complex computer programs. Gandalf61 13:18, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

"Also, it's not the value NOW (because that's just the price) - it's the value at some time in the future that matters - and worse still, it's not just a matter of whether it'll be worth more - it's a matter of whether the time it takes to grow by a certain amount will exceed the probably return from other ways to invest the money." -- and this underestimates it again. The question a trader is asking is, what will people 'think its worthin future... and thats as much a gut feel of the market, its reacrtuons and responses, [[crowd Stock in X corp. can be bought now for $Y. If I buy them, will someone else buy them for "enough to make it worthwhile" in "some time in future"? That's research, gut feel, and a thousand other things. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 00:48, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Not really deja vu

Have you ever come across something that you hadn't heard of before twice in a really short time? It seems like this happens to me a lot, but I've never heard anyone mention it. Like I had never heard the phrase general practicioner to refer to a doctor before one day and I read it in some news story the next. Is there a word for this? Recury 14:48, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I would have to go with coincidence, though you might be interested in the article synchronicity. 38.112.225.84 14:51, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I absolutely recognise what you are saying. It has happened to me many times – too many times for me to think they are coincidences. I guess our minds are more likely to take notice of "general practicioner" after we have been introduced to the concept than before. I too would like to know what it is called. —Bromskloss 15:10, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

• I agree. This happens to me all the time after learning new words. I think the brain must just fill in an unknown word from context, much the way we fill in our blind spots from context. Another example is when I've bought a new car, I start to see that same model everywhere I look, whereas I had previously not noticed them at all. --Sean 15:20, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I love coincidences and I hope there is a name for the effect Sean describes, I am very familiar with it. I love 47's and my house number is 23. Favourite one recently was lamenting in work how I had never been paintballing - fifteen minutes later my wife phones up and asks would I like to come paintballing with a group from her work. Also last night discussing the most inappropriate song for the DJ to accidently switch to during the bride and grooms first dance - later back at someones house, the third song of a random selection of a large .mp3 collection, the upon decided song. Lanfear's Bane 15:52, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

• From cognitive psychology, there is the recency effect, or it could be a form of "priming". Perhaps you see the word "osteopath,"(a type of healthcare practitioner), in a news story, and later in the day you see the term "general practitioner" (a basic family doctor). Each term is stored in memory, "primed" by the recent exposure, and at a higher level of activation than 20,000 other words or terms in your entire passive vocabulary, of all the words you may have seen at some previous time. Many of these words are not ones you would use, and you may not be sure of their meaning, like "defalcate" or "hemiola" (of course for some Wikipedians these may appear in every other sentence). The next day, you see "general practitioner" again in a news story (for instance discussing the profession of the mother of disappeared 4 year old Madeleine McCann). It is already simmering at a high level of activation, and the additional exposure makes it "pop" in some phenomenological way which feels a bit like deja vu. You don't see a recurrence of "osteopath" and its activation level remains below the "deja vu" level of activation, and gradually fades back into oblivion. Your brain pays attention to words which recur, does not pay attention to the ones which do not recur soon after the initial priming, and it seems like an amazing coincidence that the word, person, song, whatever recurred. The non-recurrence of all those other terms is ignored. Edison 16:51, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Getting to know strange women in public situations

I have quite often been in the situation - for example in a train or even in the street - where I (a single man) can tell a woman is attracted to me, and I've been attracted to them too. But although I normally have self-confidence, in that situation I feel nervous. The more the mutual attraction, the more the nerves. (Its not just me - Sappho reports in one of her poems the same symptoms when she sees someone she feels attracted to - mouth dries up, heartbeat up, lost for words, and so on). I feel if I forced myself to speak, it would come out as a nervous squeek anyway. That's part of the problem - the other part is just what should I say/do to start chatting to a complete stranger of the opposite gender? Especially, for example, when they are a few feet away in the street and we are not in a crowd? I feel sad after such events, as I think how the opportunity of a relationship has been lost. Thanks. 80.0.110.253 21:15, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

"Hi there," often works. In my experience, it's not what you say - it's just saying it. If, as you believe, the other person is interested in you, then any opening at all will be welcome. Don't try to be clever, don't force it, Just say hi. If she responds, talk about the weather. If you're waiting for a train or bus, comment on how they are always late. Think of something innocuous that fits in with where you are at the time - if it's a grocery store, ask her which tomatoes are better for a salad or something. It's really not about the words, it's about making contact. - Eron ^Talk 21:49, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Ditto to the above. If there is a mutual attraction, then they will respond in kind. They know that they're in the same situation and will talk if spoken to. You don't have to get into anything heavy like your stance on whether 1984 was better than Brave New World or peace in the Middle East. It wouldn't be expected at first. Not until you really have time to get to know one another. Dismas|^(talk) 22:37, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

(But just remember: 1984 was much better than Brave New World.) - Eron ^Talk 02:30, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

"Pardon me miss, I seem to have lost my phone number, could I borrow yours?" :) no, don't --S.dedalus 06:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Advice noted. But what do I say after that? And how do I get from that to phone numbers? What should I say when we are just two people on an otherwise empty street for example? Thanks 80.0.98.153 10:47, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

If it's an otherwise empty street, I'm assuming that you're walking somewhere, so ask if it would be alright if you walked with her and chatted. Maybe tell a little white lie about having to turn at the next corner so that she doesn't think that you're trying to follow her home. So what if you have to go a block out of your way to keep up the pretense? At least you'll be chatting. And when you part ways, say something akin to "I've enjoyed our chat. Would you like to get together for some coffee some time?" Or lunch or whatever. And if she says that you could have a bunch of caramels instead of coffee, then you know she's seen Good Will Hunting more than once... ;-) kidding on that last bit. Dismas|^(talk) 13:26, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

• I'd say don't worry about asking for her phone number. Just enjoy the chat. You'll probably see her again some day, and then you'll be old friends and she'll probably invite you up to see her record collection. --Sean 14:30, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the effort, but I think the last two replies are more appropriate to American culture. If you asked a stranger if you could walk with them in the UK they'd think you were crazy. And I'm sorry to say in the UK, where almost everybody lives in what Americans would call cities, then you rarely see people again. Actually the event that prompted this question was a woman walking past me in a large empty street, so I'd have to do a 180 degree turn, and I was not in my home city. 80.2.201.6 16:32, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

It's vitally important to find SOMETHING non-dorky to say - even if it's something that's not clever - and it has to be something that demands an answer. If you are on a train, you can start with something really basic like "Is it my imagination or is this train running late today?" - something that demands an answer - but which stays clear of any comment about the other person. Beyond keeping it simple and impersonal, it pretty much doesn't matter what you say because if the other person was in the exact same quandry of trying to find a way to open a conversation, you just did what they were absolutely praying you would do - and if they didn't want to talk to you then a brief, impersonal "No" can end the conversation for them. No risk of embarrasment on either side. Once you have exchanged a few words on the banal subject of how terrible the trains are recently (or not), the way is now open for either side to say something deeper without it seeming weird. Exchanging phone numbers is painful. When you are just about to part at the next station (or whatever) you don't have the time to do anything clever - and you only have seconds to act. One way to get past this is to have some business cards printed and in your pocket. "Hey, here's my card!" is all it takes. Nobody ever refuses them. Lots of people hand those out - it's not weird and you aren't asking the other person to give away personal information to a perfect stranger - you can give it to them without them having to instantly commit by writing something down. However, now they have your number and can phone you if they want to - you've inherently given them permission to do so - told them your name - what you do for a living - and provided several ways for them to get back to talk to you (especially if it has your cellphone and email on it). SteveBaker 22:17, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I've found that getting the phone number is the easiest part of a first meeting. I've found a counter-intuitive method that has an enormous success rate. I've used it many times and only once has someone replied "I'll give you my e-mail address." Every other time they have given me their phone number (and name, if I haven't gotten that, yet). After you've broken the ice and had a nice, normal chat - you don't have to sweep her off her feet, just show her that you're easy to talk to - then you inevitably reach the point where the conversation seems to be winding down. That is the time to get the number. If you let the conversation dwindle and the silent stretches become awkward, getting the number might prove difficult. When you first detect the conversation is slowing, but before it is undeniably in a closing phase, simply hand her a pen and a piece of paper, without saying a word. If she asks "What is this for?" then, in a matter-of-fact voice, speak these two magic words: "Your number." That's it. That's all you have to do. Most of the time they don't even ask what the pen and paper are for; they simply write their number on the paper. I have no clue why that works so well, but it does. It may have something to do with the perceived confidence level that convinces them to give the number, but if so then it is truly ironic how I came upon this method. I discovered it by accident one time when I didn't trust my voice to ask for the number, and I've used it ever since. 152.16.188.107 05:59, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

You're in the UK and you want to start a relationship with a woman you met once on the street or train? Bad idea. You might be able to chat to them, have a friendly conversation, but trying to get their number is a bad idea. If you see them several times, sharing a journey or running into them a lot, and you've had more than one chat with them, then you might be in with a chance. Also, it can be slightly different if you meet them in a bar, or at the bar of a pub, provided it is a sitting-down and talking sort of bar. If you try to get a phone number/relationship out of this single meeting, you are almost certain to get rebuffed which isn't going to help your self-esteem. So, having already noted that you are extremely unlikely to get a relationship/phone number out of a single meeting in this situation, we can move on. If you just want a conversation, to enjoy the socialising, or boost your confidence, or increase your chance of a better conversation next time you meet them, that should be relatively easy. Make sure you are in a non-threatening situation, because you are a stranger approaching a woman in a city in the UK. If you are the only people in a train carriage, let it go; you will be more likely to make her nervous than anything else! Don't walk purposefully over to her. Wander closer (as if for some other reason) if you aren't already close enough for casual conversation, then make some generic comment about the general surroundings; the weather is always a safe bet, as is a comment grumbling about the lateness of public transport or suchlike. If she is reading something, you could ask if it's any good (suggesting you had been interested in reading it). Hopefully you will enjoy a brief but positive conversation, then move on. If she seems reluctant to answer, is avoiding looking at you or is otherwise giving signals of being uncomfortable, abort the conversation. Just move away, possibly mumble an apology 'if I made you uncomfortable' and there will be no need for either of you to say anything to the other again. Failure to do this could result in negative social feedback :o If you're interested in a relationship, and you do not think you would normally see this person again, you're doomed to failure! Just enjoy the conversation. This advice is UK, and in fact England, specific. Skittle 00:18, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Copyright question

Hello,

I would like to write a short play based on the short story The Ingenious Patriot by Ambrose Bierce. Given that he died around 1914 and much of his work can be found for free on the web (including the story I want to adapt), would this be within United States copyright law as long as I gave him credit? I know some Wikipedians are very knowledgeable concerning this sort of thing, so I figured this might be good place to ask! Thanks so much for your time!

129.170.118.220 22:56, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm gonna get the smack down for offering what could be considered legal advice but I'm throwing caution to the wind and informing you also that I am not a lawyer and thus could be blatantly wrong. That being said... Our article on copyright states that "So when can one conclude that a book is in the public domain? In the United States, all books and other works published before 1923 have expired copyrights and are in the public domain." There isn't a source for this particular sentence but since Bierce died in 1914, it could conceivably help you out. You may also want to read over United States copyright law. Dismas|^(talk) 23:05, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and on a more personal note, if it were me, I'd give him credit. It might not make you look like a great playwright for not having thought up the whole story on your own but as an audience member, it may get me interested in Bierce and make me want to read more about him or read his works. Therefore you may be educating the public and that's always a good thing. Dismas|^(talk) 23:08, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Again, this is not legal advice, but I'm reasonably sure I'm correct: whether you give credit has nothing to do with whether it's legal for you to copy something without getting permission first. In cases where there is a copyright and you do ask for permission, the copyright holder may choose to require you to give suitable credit. However, what does require you to give credit in any case is the principle of being honest. Shakespeare's works are in the public domain, but if you copy something from Shakespeare and pretend you write it, it's still plagiarism, and you really don't want to do that.--Anon, 23:20 UTC, October 5, 2007.

As far as I can tell the story was published at least as early as 1898 so it is unequivocally in the public domain in the United States and you can do what you want with it. And yes you should give credit, but that has nothing to do with the legal argument—you don't want to be accused of plagiarism or unoriginality, do you? If you give credit you will be seen (at best) as someone who did a clever and original adaptation; if you don't give credit you will be considered a fraud and a cheat (at worst). --24.147.86.187 04:24, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

• Another reason to give credit is that Ambrose Bierce is famous, while you presumably are not. Ads for your play should feature his name prominently if you want to get Bierce lovers who don't normally go to plays into the theatre. --Sean 14:36, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I would note that the story is available as part of a collection by that author on http://www.gutenberg.org. Since Project Gutenberg are very careful only to keep books that are firmly out of US copyright in their collection, you can definitely use it as the basis for your play. You should give credit to the original author as a matter of honesty - but I don't think you are legally required to do so - although you would find that most publishers would be greatly upset if you didn't give that credit. SteveBaker 21:50, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

• Steve is wrong as to Project Gutenberg policy; see Project Gutenberg#Copyright issues. --Anonymous, 12:30 UTC, October 7, 2007.

"if you copy something from Shakespeare and pretend you write it, it's still plagiarism" Not on WP, where verbatim copying of DANFS seems to bother nobody.... Trekphiler 04:03, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia cares about legal issues (copyright), not intellectual issues (plagiarism). Wikipedia is not (in fact, Wikipedia is really not) supposed to be original, whereas a play or academic essay is. DANFS is public domain, so verbatim copying is perfectly legal. FiggyBee 04:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Song on The Independent's advert

What is the keyboard solo on The Independent's adverts. This is the advert. Thank you ^^ 81.158.176.129 23:40, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

It's Still D.R.E. by Dr. Dre from the album 2001, you can listen to a extract on last.fm. Nanonic 17:26, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Masturbation

Hi, I have a friend aged 13 who masturbates and has ejaculation and all's OK. A few days ago he told me that he reached the orgasm but had no ejaculation and that this happend twice. Is this normal? Can you run out of sperm? How long does it take for more to be created? Thanks, js —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.199.200.76 (talk) 23:48, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

See retrograde ejaculation for one possible answer. Friday (talk) 23:50, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

You can't "run out" of sperm. According to this reliable page from the University of Pennsylvania Health System, the male body produces 12 billion sperm per month, and each ejaculation releases 300 million. That would seem to be enough for 40 ejaculations per month, though I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that the body produces more the more one ejaculates. --zenohockey 02:20, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

See Masturbation#Masturbation frequency, age and sex. According to that, "nearly all males masturbate daily well into their 20s", and "adolescent youths report being able to masturbate to ejaculation around six times per day". a.z. 05:38, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

At age 13 your body (or "your friend's") is still figuring out exactly how that hardware works. That doesn't sound exceptionally abnormal (I can recall a few similar things when I was going through puberty, oh joy of joys that was), though if it continued for a few days you'd probably want to get it checked out. --24.147.86.187 04:15, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

There's some potentially interesting information here on orgasm without ejaculation. - Eron ^Talk 04:45, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

In my experience if you masturbate frequently, you can indeed run out of semen, albeit temporarily. This depends on the person, and after a night's sleep your body is usually ready again. However if the person has been ejacultaing normally and consistently and this carries on for more than 3 days or so, it may pay to get it checked by your medical practitioner Pumpmeup 05:42, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

October 6

A Surgeon's Hands

Do surgeons perform exercises to increase steadiness and reduce shakiness in their hands? If so, what are some of such exercises? Or must their steady hands be a natural genetic trait? Thanks. Acceptable 01:25, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

One's options are more varied than "exercise" vs "natural genetics". Practice and repetition can help a surgeon in the same way that they help, say, a guitarist. When one starts play guitar you can barely keep them steady much less the sort of rapid-fire precision needed to play carefully. But with lots of training and practice and reptition you gain the sort of muscle-memory needed to reproduce precision work without even thinking about it. I doubt surgeons are too different in that respect. --24.147.86.187 04:18, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

• Playing video games might help: "Three hours a week decreased mistakes by 37 percent, study finds". --Sean 14:44, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Hah, playing super monkey ball on medical equipment ^^. Also I find it amusing that the doctor likes that game because it has no blood and guts- he'd probably get better practice playing the medic in TF2 or battlefield :) --froth^t 19:02, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you can use a few hours in Trauma Center: Under the Knife practising incisions on virtual people of which you have no consequence (other than losing the game) if you "slipped" :p. --antilived^{T | C | G} 04:41, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe the thought of litigation keeps their hands steady....or do they have to control an anxiety tremor caused by the thought? hmm Richard Avery 21:42, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

engine

I asked this here before but I still don't believe the answer. I've only driven an automatic so this question pertains to that I guess. When I press on the accelerator, the rpm guage immediately shoots up. As long as I don't cause it to shift gears, the harder I push, the higher the rpm and it stays constant while I hold the pedal at that position. But my speed isn't directly related to the rpm- my acceleration is. When I hold down the accelerator, the rpm shoots up and stays still, but my speed takes several seconds to get up to the maximum it'll reach at that RPM/gear. So what is the mechanical mechanism that allows a rapidly spinning rpm on the engine to gradually bleed rotational energy to the drive shaft? This can not be caused by simple gears, if that was so, the speed would always perfectly reflect the rpm, and only their "constant of proportionality" would vary. But this isn't the case- they're not proportional at all. So what mechanical mechanism allows this to occur? Friction as a clamp slips around the drive shaft? --froth^t 02:08, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

That'd be your torque converter. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 02:24, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Which is indeed automatic transmission-related. My major gripe with that. DirkvdM 08:14, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

What is your gripe? Froth was specifically talking about automatics. With a manual transmission, there is a direct relationship between the engine RPM and the speed of the car, unless you're slipping the clutch. FiggyBee 13:30, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I think Dirk's gripe is with automatic transmission, not with TenOfAllTrades' answer. DuncanHill 13:41, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Yup, having power and not being able to use it fully. DirkvdM 17:36, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

THANK you finally! Every time I got in a car I've been grumbling "grr they have no idea what they're talking about" heh.. last time I asked a dozen people swore up and down that I was crazy and that such a thing was mechanically impossible :) --froth^t 18:56, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

FYI, torque converters were mentioned the last time you asked, see Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Science/2007_June_12#car_engine_question. Friday (talk) 21:46, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

oh :o I asked even before that though. this is my third try. I think the first was in 2006 or so --froth^t 21:53, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

This is a tricky thing. When the gearbox isn't shifting and the clutch/torque-convertor isn't slipping and the tyres aren't skidding, your speed is precusely the RPM multiplied by the overall gear ratio multiplied by the circumpherence of your tyres. Accelleration is proportional to torque - not RPM. However, in a conventional automatic, there is a viscous coupling (the torque convertor) that allows the transmission to slip - so when the RPM changes suddenly, it allows the wheels to catch up to that speed more gradually. In that case, the rate of accelleration is going to be dependent on the RPM in come complicated manner. Of course there are some cars with CVT (Continuously variable transmissions) in which the RPM hardly ever changes - and some sorts of full-on hybrids only use the engine to generate electricity - so again, the RPM and speed are pretty much unrelated. On my 1963 Mini, (stick shift) the speedometer is broken - I fitted a tachometer instead and so long as I remember the gear ratios and can do some quick mental arithmetic, I know my speed by knowing what gear I'm in and the tachometer reading. SteveBaker 21:33, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

......honestly officer!! DuncanHill 21:38, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

This still sounds weird to me. I don't think it's normal that the torque converter would slip that noticeably for several seconds. Anyone have opinions on that? Friday (talk) 21:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

"...the torque converter would slip noticeably for several seconds." If this is true, then is this the reason that automatics are generally smoother when driving? Acceptable 22:37, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Unless you've got a locking torque converter, it's always slipping. And yes, it does make for a smoother ride. --Carnildo 06:31, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Which everyone does (have a locking torque converter, that is). FiggyBee 06:42, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Should one want to simulate the smooth ride-ness of an automatic, would one need to slip the clutch for a longer period of time, therefore causing more wear? Acceptable 15:08, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

You can be smoother by slipping the clutch more, and yes, this will wear it out faster. But you can be smooth without slipping the clutch excessively too. It generally going to be easier to be smooth when accelerating gently than when trying to do it quickly. Friday (talk) 15:50, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Lava Pumice-Powered Soap Bar And Its Uses

Can you use Lava Soap for your face? I mean it seems most facial cleansers have pumice, so why can't I use my Lava to exfoliate? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.153.81.7 (talk) 02:57, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

3D weave

Has anyone ever weaved cloth in three dimentions? I recently worked out a way to do it, and I wonder if anyone has done it before. Using google, I managed to find ScotWeave which appears to have layered cloth, but I'm trying to find something where the thickness of the cloth is about the same as the length, resulting in a woven 3D object. — Daniel 19:21, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Aside from double weave (two interconnected layers of cloth) and tubular weave (two layers of cloth connected only at the edges, making a seamless tube), I can't think of any examples. Possibly someone has done one as an art project, but it doesn't seem it would be a useful technique. Rmhermen 21:52, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you have a look at velvet or corduroy (corde du roi - so called because of its expense to manufacture - thus called Cloth of Kings). These two fabrics are both double decker weaves that are subsequently split through their conjoined thickness to produce 2 sheets of the resultant piled fabrics. 81.145.241.210 23:21, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

what would be the midway point be

is there a site on the web that if you put a distance in from where you live it would show the place that distance from where you are

a friend that lives in los angeles would meet me half way for vacation i live in wilmington nc...ive tried different sources including mapquest and aaa cant seem to find the answer

alicia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.12.19.230 (talk) 19:45, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Looks like Oklahoma City is the place for you, as the crow flies, if a crow flies a great circle route. I used the ruler in Google Earth. It's a free download, no bundled malware. --Milkbreath 20:04, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I just found a website (through Digg) for doing exactly this: http://www.happymedian.com/ — Kieff | Talk 17:05, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

If one of you is travelling faster for whatever reason this sounds like the setup for a bad algebra word problem :(

Printing a Trade Paperback sized book

I am writing a book for my gf as an anniversary present and I want to print it out in trade paperback format. Is such a service usually available at printing studios, or is a special location necessary? Are there any in the Detroit MI - Windsor ON area? Thank you. Crisco 1492 20:06, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

There are hundreds of these so-called "Vanity Press" places on the Internet. As the somewhat derogatory name suggests, some are more reputable than others. The honest ones just print the books for some rate - others claim to be publishing and advertising the things but you pay an enormous up-front fee and wind up being stuck with a big pile of books that you don't need. For a one-off, you can do it at (for example) www.cafepress.com - mostly they do T-shirts and such - but if you dig around on their site a bit, you'll see that they'll print books for you too. SteveBaker 21:09, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[www.cafepress.com/cp/info/sell/products/books Here's] the direct link to the cafepress page. Seems very cool- you send them the content and set how much profit you want to make on each sale, and cafepress will handle production and payment, and charge customers the actual cost of production plus your set profit amount, then mail you the check at the end of the month. This is really slick, it doesn't look like there are any up-front fees or anything :O --froth^t 22:09, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Ooh, they even let you print very small numbers (like 1) of copies for personal use. I'm going to get my video games walkthroughs published :D This is awesome, thanks a lot for the pointer steve --froth^t 22:11, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

So its all online now, eh? :P I definitely was hoping for a something a little closer to home. However, I will take a look at those sites and see how much to print just one book. Thanks a lot. Crisco 1492 03:23, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I should stress that CafePress is just one of these services - there are very large numbers of them out there - some cheaper, some more expensive - depending on the quantity (most will print just one copy up to thousands - but some have minimum quantities of 50 or so). There are also wide varieties of bindings, paper quality and standards for how you send them data (mostly it's PDF files - but there are others). SteveBaker 04:23, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

porn question (an appropriate one)

If one wanted to get porn off the internet w/o paying any money, confirming through a credit card or checking account, or anything like that (it would still be okay if they asked for an email address for confirmation) how would one do this? does this sort of thing even exist? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.23.84.129 (talk) 21:47, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

KKch.. kkchhh. kchchhhh BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA --froth^t 21:52, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Gesundheit. DirkvdM 18:32, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

So essentially you're asking how to commit credit card fraud? Considering free porn is everywhere on the Internet, committing felonies to try to get it is probably not a good idea. -Wooty [Woot?] [Spam! Spam! Wonderful spam!] 23:17, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

eh? he's specifically asking for porn that DOES NOT need a credit-card - so an entirely unjustified accusation of criminal intent. DuncanHill 23:21, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree w/ DuncaHill. That wasn't a very nice thing to say to our anon friend.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 00:12, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

OP:Just google a bit more and you'll get all the pornography you need. --Taraborn 00:02, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

www.youporn.com. Aaadddaaammm 03:17, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

richardsrealm.com, atkingdom.com, thumbzilla.com, longestlist.com etc. etc. Need we say more? Dismas|^(talk) 13:29, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

See the Wikipedia article PornoTube. Edison 01:09, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Sheeesh, it's hard NOT to find porn on the internet. Someone I know used Google images to look for Bob the Builder's sidekick Wendy. Sadly, she just searched for "Wendy" and her 5 year old was amused to see "boobies" on the results screen. --Dweller 09:34, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. There is so much free porn on the Internet that I have started to wonder why people would bother paying for porn. JIP | Talk 11:45, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

in this case you would go to persiankitty.com, then scroll through all the crap and pick a site that matches your interests.

Freight for fashion companies

I have a questions about freight and freight costs for fashion companies. What companies do the big companies use and more specifically who do they use to transport into and from australia? Are there designated fashion freight/transport companies? Who are the biggest ones and who do the luxury brand companies use?

jeanne —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.122.119.123 (talk) 22:54, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Try Tibbett and Britten. 81.145.241.210 23:22, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Cost of scalpels

How much do the various types of surgical-grade scalpels cost? Thanks. Acceptable 23:35, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

About £10 per handle, and about £30 per 100 blades, per [9] DuncanHill 23:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC).

Oh, so they're not really that expensive, eh? Do surgeons not re-use them for hygienic reasons or because they wear out easily? Acceptable 23:44, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it's hygiene - specifically vCJD. DuncanHill 23:47, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

If they were really that worried about vCJD, they'd throw out everything every time, not just scalpel blades. I expect that really the reason is that at a few cents per blade, it's more cost-effective to replace than to sterilise and sharpen. FiggyBee 00:31, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

That sounds most likely to me, too. --Masamage ♫ 00:50, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

What? Why would they be worried about that?.. wouldn't viral infections be more worrisome than ultra-rare TSEs? --froth^t 05:52, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

According to the CJD article (and the TSE article you linked to), prions may not be made inactive by simple sterilisation methods. FiggyBee 06:46, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I can tell you that definitely scalpel blades used for surgery in the UK NHS are all disposable - blade and handle. It is done both for control of infection and on cost grounds, luckily the two coincide in the one aim. Richard Avery 21:39, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Fast Talking in Old Movies

Does anyone know why people in older (pre-1950?) movies often speak very rapidly? Think of classic gangster movies and also of the stereotypical fast-talking newspaper reporter. Or did people back then simply speak faster than after the 1950's? Any help would be appreciated. Haute Fuzze 23:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

The question calls to mind The Front Page (1931 film). If characters in a movie speak fast, it is presumably for comedic or dramatic effect. It should not have anything to do with the technology, if the sound movie was made in the 1920's or later. In some silent movies the characters move fast because of present day 24 frame per second projection of silent movies filmed at 16 frames per second or so. Edison 00:31, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I've often wondered that myself. Noel Coward was the worst I've come across in this respect - I saw In Which We Serve, in which he spoke so quickly and clippedly that I picked up only about a half of what he said. Sort of defeats the purpose, really. -- JackofOz 01:31, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I've wondered about that all my life watching old movies, and so have many of my friends and family. So is there any reason? My older relatives claim that people actually spoke faster back then. I don't believe that. Haute Fuzze 02:24, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I've watched several Thirties movies lately without noticing such a phenomenon. —Tamfang 08:15, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Funny, I've been noticing it for decades. This is just a theory, but it might have something to do with the social stratum at which the movies were pitched. The middle-upper classes those days tended to be better educated, more widely read, and more practised at wit, repartee and general conversational skills than the "man in the street", and they had a wider range of knowledge from which to draw and thus had more to say and thus spoke a little more quickly in order to fit it in to the available time. The movie "speed thing" was reflected in other things, not just talking. Shots of audiences at theatres always had them clapping a lot faster than I've ever seen "real" people do. They also walked faster; and they made immediate analyses of situations and instant decisions often affecting the lives of thousands of people. And orchestras in movies always played pieces faster than they do now, often rushing towards the end of a piece at breakneck speed. I've also noticed this on old recordings, so it may just have been the fashion of the day. -- JackofOz 12:26, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Suggest it has more to do with the need to squeeze a story into a standard length (70 mins?) to accommodate the cinema programming: second feature, shorts, ads, main feature,86.200.4.62 14:05, 7 October 2007 (UTC)petitmichel

I think I can explain why the images look fast (eg the clapping), but I don't think it applies to how fast the sounds are. Anyway, it's because old cameras took less frames per second than modern cameras - which means that because there are less frames in old films the picture is perceived to be quite fast —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.208.110.207 (talk) 06:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It's not so much that early cameras had a lower standard frame rate, but that they were cranked by hand and thus had no hard standard (was the same true of early projectors?); the operator sometimes deliberately cranked slower to save film. With sound, the rate had to be fixed. —Tamfang 17:28, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

October 7

"Dark Ride"

where was the movie "Dark Ride" filmed? The amusement park looked too well done to just be a throw-up-and-tear-down-after set. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.217.195.89 (talk) 02:48, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

According to the Internet Movie Database, Dark Ride was filmed in Los Angeles and at the Santa Monica Pier. See [10]. I would assume they used Pacific Park. - Eron ^Talk 02:56, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Selfless good deed

Hi,

As with so many ref desk questions, this is inspired by Friends. In a recent episode (The One Where Phoebe Hates PBS), Joey thinks that a true selfless good deed is impossible as any good deed makes you feel good. Is he right? I'm sure philosophers have pondered this point. I've heard that sacrificing yourself for someone else can be perfectly good, but if I was the person that lived, I wouldn't be completely happy that this person had just died for me. What about if you were forced to (say) kill a baby to save mankind. You'd feel shit, but it would have been a good thing you'd done (in the grand scheme of things). Any thoughts? Aaadddaaammm 03:14, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

you're exactly right. Think about war in which you kill other people so you and your buddies don't get killed by them (you're forced, in other words). and look what happens to veterans: post-traumatic stress disorder and post-war depression. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.217.195.89 (talk) 03:48, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

The concept of win-win is important here. Sacrificing your own or another's life is an extreme case, and I'd prefer to talk about more mundane circumstances. If you do something for another person, unless you derive some positive return from doing it, even it's just the knowledge that you've made a teeny positive difference to their life, you've sacrificed a part of yourself for no good purpose, and you've lost. That's why doing good works purely out of a sense of duty, or some other reason that doesn't give something back to the doer, doesn't work and is not sustainable. There will always be at least a tinge of resentment involved on the part of the doer, and the gift will be compromised. The recipient may not be consciously aware of this, but at some level they will detect that the deed was not done with with the giver's full heart. Ultimately, win-lose and lose-win are both lose-lose. -- JackofOz 04:09, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

A direct contradiction of JackofOz's formulation: in the 12th century, Maimonides laid down eight levels of charity, from the least to the most honorable.

1. A person gives, but not happily.
2. A person gives cheerfully, but less then they should.
3. A person gives when asked by a needy person.
4. A person gives without being asked, but gives directly. The recipient knows who gave, and the giver knows who received.
5. A person gives a donation in a certain place, so that the giver does not know the receiver, but the receiver knows the giver.
6. A person makes a donation secretly. The giver knows who received, but the receiver doesn't know who gave.
7. A person contributes anonymously to a fund, which then dispenses the money. Neither party knows the other.
8. The highest level is to prevent someone from becoming needy in the first place, by (for example) teaching a trade, teaching someone how to fish, finding someone a job, etc.

--jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 15:30, 7 October 2007 (UTC) I can come up with way more levels than that. For example, if we believe the gradual increase in honor from (1) to (7) and accept that (8) is higher than those - then higher still than teaching face-to-face would be to teach anonymously so that the pupil never knows who it was who was teaching them. The ultimate would be: "Someone contributes knowledge (eg how to fish) anonymously to a foundation ("a fund of knowledge") that dispenses the knowledge to learners. Neither party knows the other. (Hmmm - does this sound at all familiar? I'm beginning to get this warm glow all over). But it doesn't end there. There are virtues between level (7) and (8) such as contributing money to pay teachers to prevent someone from becoming needy. Teaching other teachers. I think there are an infinite number of levels of honor in charity. SteveBaker 23:59, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Bill Clinton's new book Giving might be of interest. -- JackofOz 08:30, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

This is an interesting and fairly well known case where the language one uses shapes the answer one gets. There are different levels, or layers, or "takes" on what words like "choice" or "self" mean, and these influence the answer.

In some ultimate sense, every action a person does is probably selfish. That is, we do it because we wish to, and in that wish, some reason that benefits us can be found. We feel good, we want to look good, we want to not be criticized as citizens and human beings, we feel its right and bnot doing right would be uncomfortable (a feeling we wish to avoid), etc etc. So in once sense, it's very hard to find a single action or choice made, that does not serrve the "self".

However in another sense, that isn't the most helpful take. It's a "take" to be aware of, and in terms of psychology, therapy, and "spiritual development" it's definitely one that is important to examine, but we also want our answers to allow shades of grey. Some actions are beneficial to others and the main surface thought is to help others. We want to recognize that and not classify theft with helping old folks cross the road as just being "both selfish", without distinction.

Hope this helps! FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 00:27, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

A BOOK about Meteorite$

This not only tells you about them, it also tells you, as of 2000, how much they are worth. One is worth $0.10 a gram since rust attacks it easily, another is approx. $300.00 a gram. Book is Falling Stars A Guide to Meteors & Meteorites, written by Mike D. Reynolds, ISBN:0-8117-2755-6 The $300 gram rock is from a meteorite allegedly from Mars. Can this be used in appropriate articles ? 65.163.112.225 06:03, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

One rock that is of high value is from a comet, and one hit Siberia in 1947. 65.163.112.225 06:27, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

This source also mentions Robert Haag as well, so this could mean that Wikipedia will have several edits deriving from this source as well. Happy source placement. 65.163.112.225 07:01, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Lovely though it is that you'd like to promote the heck out of this book, Wikipedia doesn't exist to do that. We write facts into our articles - then cite books as a way for people to verify those facts. SteveBaker 14:27, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Possible ICE (Law Enforcement) site

Is there a article concerning http://www.daylaborers.org ? I saw it, and it is a website that depicts illegal and legal aliens who have committed crimes, ranging from infractions to murder and child molestation and child rape. 65.163.112.225 09:39, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

To have an article about it in Wikipedia, a website must meet certain notability guidelines. I can see no reason to think that that website is notable (although you may know better than I do). FiggyBee 10:54, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

holy rock in california

I am trying to do a project on a holy rock in California. I believe that this rock people believe to be spiratual powers, was in a roadway they were trying to build in California and they wanted to move this rock, the people that believed it to be spiritual wanted the rock to remane. They had a vote and decided to move the rock to a park. I can not find anything on this rock or the park. can you give me a direction to look? Thank you Kelly Farewell —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.157.17.95 (talk) 15:29, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

• Try this Google search for "golden gate park" and "shiva linga". It's a quite amusing story. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 16:17, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Try this. I searched on "sacred rock relocated OR moved california park -acropolis -inca". I might be able to do better with a little more to go on. California is a big place that's been around a long time. --Milkbreath 16:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Sending a letter during the UK postal strike

I need to send an urgent letter this week during the Royal Mail postal strike. Which services would be best to use, bearing in mind I want to send a letter, not a parcel. I can have it collected from a commercial address, or I can drop it off at a depot. Any ideas?

--86.156.40.179 16:34, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

It depends how far away you have to send it but in principle almost all commercial delivery companies would be interested in your business. The way the Royal Mail monopoly used to work until the beginning of 2006 was that no other company was allowed to deliver mail for less than a set amount, but it has been lifted. If you're sending within London, courier companies may be the easiest way; otherwise try those well known companies with three initials in their name. Sam Blacketer 17:04, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

You could try TNT, they deliver letters as well as parcels, here is their web-site address http://www.tntpost.co.uk/Mail/ Richard Avery 21:34, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Is it possible to Fax it? SteveBaker 23:50, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Can you Identify a Sea creqature for me Please

I was in the Costa Brava on an almost static boat in the Med at Tossa De Mar, the engine was turning over. Caught in the wash of the boat was a beautiful sea creature. It was about 6 inches in diameter and had a flatter top piece which looked rubbery and appeared separate from the bottom. The bottom looked like a half dome and was made of separate stems, like mini tentacles lots of them mad up a half moon brush. There were colours of a mauve pink and white on the hundreds of small tentacles.. Under them were fewer dark ones. The top part seemed to be moving up and down and appeared as if it were syphoning water in and out. The top of it looked like a teat for a baby's bottle and was flat with a point on top. I thought it was a kind of jelly fish but not jelly like. I also thoughtg of a kind of sea urchin out of shell. I would like to know if you can identify it from the description Thaanks jeanette —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.246.215 (talk) 17:36, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

not sure but look at Echinoderm possibly Sand dollar —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.102.115.31 (talk) 18:51, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

From your description, I'm sure it is some kind of "jellyfish", Class Scyphozoa. A sand dollar would not be free swimming. Not all jellyfish are obviously "jelly-like." There are many species of Scyphozoans and very little is known about them. I would suggest that you do an image search in google using the key work "Scyphozoa" and see if anything turns up that looks like your creature.--Eriastrum 19:29, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Portuguese Man o' War ? -Arch dude 20:40, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

POPULATION VOTE

I,M LOOKING FOR A BLOG ARE LIKE MINDED PEOPLE WHO THINK THE PRESIDENT SHOULD BE ELECTED BY POPULATION VOTE AND NOT THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE.`````` —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.5.130 (talk) 22:49, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

You may also be interested in the caps lock key. It's rude to shout. Aaadddaaammm 23:49, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

In which country? I presume you mean the USA, but that's probably because I'm ignorant and unaware of how other countries with Presidents elect them, but I'd be prepared to hazard a guess that at least one or two have a similar system to the USA. --Dweller 09:29, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

You might try searching for blog + Electoral College + abolish. —Tamfang 17:23, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

HOW DOES ONE THANK WIKIPEDIA ?

REALLY, HOW DOES ONE THANK WIKIPEDIA FOR A JOB WELL DONE ? Did'nt mean to SHOUT at you all. 65.163.112.225 08:05, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

OOPS! Did'nt see where I placed this ! @#$%! 65.163.112.225 08:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Easy. Send me a large amount of money. Send me an email and I'll send you my bank account number.  :) JackofOz 08:28, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Have you taken care of the modalities? —Tamfang 17:21, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Contribute to articles! After all, we're here to build an encyclopedia... and you'd be very welcome (you'll find it easier to get involved if you register for an account - they're free of charge and it only takes a few moments) --Dweller 09:28, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Seriously - send money (perhaps you could sell your caps-lock key on eBay) to the Wikimedia foundation. The foundation pays for the computers and bandwidth to run Wikipedia and as a charity, they always need money! Just click on the "Donate to Wikipedia" link on the menu on the left side of every page. You could also buy a CafePress Wikipedia T-shirt/Mug/Mousepad/ToteBag/Hat - 20% of the sale price goes to the Wikimedia foundation. Wearing your wikishirt with pride will also help to get more attention for the project. (When I wear mine, I get a LOT of people ask me about it - which starts many interesting conversations!)

Contributing your knowledge and expertise is definitely another way to help though...do both!

SteveBaker 14:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

1) send a donation to the Wikimedia Foundation; 2) contribute something to Wikipedia that would not likely be done without you -- either because few people do it, or because the interest/ perceived-peer-recognition/ novelty/ self-fulfillment/ or whatever-else-motivates-people payoffs are too low to prevent a high participant turnover rate. dr.ef.tymac 15:16, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank us by helping us. Some folks, especially young folks, cannot send money and may not feel competent to add factual information. If you are in this category, you can still help. Please see Wikipedia:Community Portal for some ideas. Please especially consider the following:

• check for and correct spelling and grammar.
• look for and simplify over-elaborate language
• wikify articles that need it
• flag articles that whose lead paragraphs are insuffiently clear: add a complaint to the article's talk page.
• add {{fact}} tags where you see an unsupported assertion (but only if you really think the assertion may be questionable.)
• look for {{fact}} tags where you think the assertion is true. find supporting references on the internet and add them.

Thanks. -Arch dude 00:21, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

• Take photographs for articles that don't have them.
• Draw diagrams for articles that would be clearer if they had them.
• Read an article aloud into a voice recorder on your PC and add an audio version of the article.

Lots of things! SteveBaker 18:26, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

• Convert PNG images to SVG;
• Copy content from one article into another article on the same or similar topic if there are gaps and missing information.
• Add ideas for new ways to help Wikipedia to an already-existing list. dr.ef.tymac 20:29, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

October 8

Should the Queen die...

Should Queen Elizabeth II die, will the coins of the Commonwealth countries, more specifically Canada, immediately be change so the back of the coins no longer feature the Queen's portrait, but instead King Charles? Acceptable 00:57, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

New issues would have the new King's portrait, but coins of the old Queen would continue in circulation. Until decimalization in Britain, one could see coins with a variety of monarchs on them. DuncanHill 01:00, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

By the way, the Queen's portrait is on the front (obverse) not the back (reverse) of coins. See Obverse and reverse. DuncanHill 01:01, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

• Obverse may mean "front", but it is more sensible to think of the obverse as the back when it's the same on all denominations of coin. It doesn't help people to tell them apart, and the other side does. --Anonymous, 05:38 UTC, October 8, 2007.

That's why we call the two sides of coins "Heads" and "Tails" - it's much easier! "Head" is the side with the head on it. SteveBaker 14:24, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

In relation to whether it happens "immediately", it would occur as soon as practicable, which would vary from country to country. The King would need to approve the design (or designs, if different countries adopt different designs), and that process could take some considerable time. -- JackofOz 01:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, you could see coins with a variety of monarchs on them well after decimalisation - until the reduction in size of the ten pence in 1992 led to the final withdrawal of the (equivalent value) two shilling and florin coins. Warofdreams talk 02:45, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

You are quite right about shillings and florins though they would only have had George VI and Elizabeth II, as previous silver coinage had been demonetized (I think in 1947) - and of course the sixpence (=2½ new pence) was legal tender until 1981, and very occasionally turned up in change. DuncanHill 10:27, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Sixpences were kept for longer than other pre-decimal coins because the London underground had an enormous investment in machines that accepted them. They actually stockpiled several million pounds worth of sixpences in order to give them out in change LONG after most banks stopped handing them out. SteveBaker 14:24, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the UK's silver and half-silver coins were never demonetized. It was simply a case of what English speakers call Gresham's Law at work - viz., "Bad money drives out good". Xn4 11:21, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Fascinating, I didn't know that! DuncanHill 11:31, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Were the 5p and 10p changed (putting the shilling and florin out of circulation) at the same time? I seem to remember that one happened before my visit to England in 1989, and the second before my visit in 1991. Damn shame, as the old designs were a lot more interesting; though of course they did weigh down one's pocket exceedingly. —Tamfang 17:20, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

No, the 5p was shrunk first, followed by the 10p a couple of years later. -- Arwel (talk) 18:47, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, it's thought very unlikely that he'll be "King Charles". Smart money is on George VII. FiggyBee 02:04, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

On what grounds? —Tamfang 17:16, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

As to "immediately", the answer is that Canadian practice has been to change the portrait when the date on the coins changes. All 1952 coins show King George VI, who died in February 1952; all 1953 coins show Queen Elizabeth II.

The previous transition is more interesting. In 1936, George V died in January and was succeeded by Edward VIII, who abdicated in December and was succeeded by George VI. All coins dated 1936 show George V; 1937 ones show George VI; and Edward VIII never made it onto the coinage. But it takes time to prepare dies, and if production of coins had been shut down from January 1937 until the George VI dies were ready, a coin shortage would have developed. Therefore the mint continued to produce "1936" coins well into 1937, but marked them with a dot under the date. (Apparently they made the dots too small and they wore off with time; in some denominations "1936-dot" coins are now very rare collectors' items. When the same trick was necessary again because of a change in King George VI's title, they used a maple leaf, so there are "1947-maple-leaf" coins that show him as still being emperor of India, produced in 1948 when he wasn't. Presumably the maple leaf would be used again if this device was deemed necessary in the future.)

See Coins of the Canadian dollar.

--Anonymous, 05:38 UTC, October 8, 2007. (copyedited later)

That information was interesting, about King Edward VIII. a.z. 06:03, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Even more interesting is that fact that Edward VIII coins were minted in the UK but not in Canada. -- JackofOz 08:26, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Some Edward VIII coins dated 1936, without a portrait, went into circulation in British West Africa and British East Africa. Xn4 11:33, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Zippo Lighters

I own a zippo lighter, and for some reason i constantly have problems lighting it. Wthe flint is fine, and the whick is fine, and i refuel it constasntly.

Any advice?

Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.251.196.3 (talk) 04:14, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I took the liberty of removing your e-mail address to prevent spambots from finding it. If you can't find the answer you're looking for in the FAQs section of Zippo's website, then you could check this forum, where someone asked a very similar question. One of those suggestions may work for you. 152.16.59.190 06:01, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

If it is a real Zippo, I believe that Zippo garentee it so, send it back to them and they will repair it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.144.161.223 (talk) 11:25, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

most articles per population...

Which country has the most articles per population here on Wikipedia? 83.108.220.136 05:17, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It might be a bit hard to quantify what constitutes a particular country "having" a particular article. Can you clarify the question? If countries that no longer exist count, then I'd say they win by dint of having an infinite article-to-population ratio (>1 articles, 0 population). If you meant which language Wikipedia has the most articles per native speakers, I'll let you do the mathematics. FiggyBee 05:31, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

To do the maths, one also needs to know the number of native speakers per language, info that that link does not provide. But this one does: List of languages by number of native speakers. So now we can do the maths. I suppose it's a matter of comparing the top of the first list to the bottom of the second list. Here's a list of nominees, starting with the least spoken languages, in terms of people per article (which gives whole numbers, which is easier to read) (figures are rounded):

• Icelandic: 300,000 / 17,000 = 17
• Norwegian: 4,700,000 / 134,000 = 35
• Frisian: 600,000 / 5,600 = 107
• Welch: 750,000 / 12,000 = 62
• Irish: 1,700,000 / 5,400 = 315
• Slovenian: 2,000,000 / 53,000 = 38
• Latvian: 2,500,000 / 11,000 = 227
• Lithuanian: 4,000,000 / 55,000 = 73
• Galician: 4,000,000 / 28,000 = 143
• Finnish: 6,100,000 / 135,000 = 45
• Danish: 5,300,000 / 70,000 = 76
• Hebrew: 5,200,000 / 64,000 = 81
• Swedish: 9,000,000 / 254,000 = 35
• Dutch: 20,000,000 / 370,000 = 54
• Polish: 50,000,000 / 430,000 = 116
• French: 70,000,000 / 570,000 = 123
• German: 100,000,000 / 650,000 = 154
• Japanese: 125,000,000 / 420,000 = 300
• Russian: 150,000,000 / 200,000 = 750
• Portuguese: 175,000,000 / 290,000 = 600
• English: 310,000,000 / 2,000,000 = 155
• Spanish: 320,000,000 / 285,000 = 1100

And the winners are (top 10):

• Icelandic: 300,000 / 17,000 = 17
• Norwegian: 4,700,000 / 134,000 = 35
• Swedish: 9,000,000 / 254,000 = 35
• Slovenian: 2,000,000 / 53,000 = 38
• Finnish: 6,100,000 / 135,000 = 45
• Dutch: 20,000,000 / 370,000 = 54
• Welch: 750,000 / 12,000 = 62
• Lithuanian: 4,000,000 / 55,000 = 73
• Danish: 5,300,000 / 70,000 = 76
• Hebrew: 5,200,000 / 64,000 = 81

Note that the big languages don't do well at all. Especially English is rather a disappointment because there are bound to be relatively many more non-native-speaking contributors. And conversely, especially Dutch speakers will often put more time into the English than the Dutch Wikipedia, like I do, so that may keep the Dutch Wikipedia out of the top three, although Icelandic will be very hard to beat. Of course there could also be some tiny regional language that happens to have a fervent following and can thus easily get to the top of the list. I rather expected Frisian to be higher on the list. I didn't count constructed languages like Esperanto and Volapük (the latter of which, surprisingly, has more articles - I had never heard of it).

Of course, the number of articles is just a vague indicator. A specific Wikipedia could have loads of stubs, and I suppose that that will be more the case for the smaller languages. Alas the list does not give the size in bytes of the Wikipedias (just text, not images), which would be a better indicator (depending on what you're interested in, of course). DirkvdM 09:06, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It's a shame that the question excludes Latin (pace all those who think it's spoken in Latin America - is that a Jade Goody?) Are there any reliable stats on how many Latin "speakers" (!) there are in the world today? --Dweller 09:25, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

*cough* I actually hid a link to that article behind "the mathematics". :) FiggyBee 09:27, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

<confused> I don't see any reference to Latin in that article? --Dweller 10:03, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, that was meant in reply to DirkvdM ("one also needs to know the number of native speakers per language, info that that link does not provide. But this one does: List of languages by number of native speakers."). FiggyBee 14:35, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Some of the small languages will beat Icelandic. For example, Scottish Gaelic has 4,500 articles and only 60,000 native speakers - equalling 7.5 speakers per article. Warofdreams talk 10:27, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

*cough* *cough* Forgive me, FiggyBee, as a contributor to Vicipaedia I can't help wondering whether Latin would have been the winner if it hadn't been <<hidden behind the mathematics>>? It isn't excluded by the question, as the Vatican City (with an official population in 2000 of 783) has Latin as its official language. Xn4 11:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Is there some virus going around? DirkvdM 18:15, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

But far more people speak/read/write Latin than the population of Vatical City, so that would be a pretty misleading statistic, especially since the likelihood of those Wikipedia editors actually being residents of Vatican City is pretty low. More likely they are people who took Latin in school. --24.147.86.187 13:07, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

The premise FiggyBee went with for all countries has similar flaws. There are plenty of people in every country who edit other language Wikipedias. It's a flawed premise, obviously. --Dweller 13:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

The same goes for English, like I said. Probably about half the contributors to the English Wikipedia are not native speakers. DirkvdM 18:15, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I can't help wondering why, if we're discussing articles per (head of) population, all of the calculations are population to article? --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:12, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, 'articles per person' would be better English. Xn4 11:14, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Why would that be better English? There's nothing wrong with the grammar, is there? And anyway, it's really mathematics. We just have to make do with whatever bloody natural language we happen to be speaking. DirkvdM 18:15, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It's a shame we don't still have the Klingon wikipedia (now it's at klingon.wikia.com - since there are most definitely zero native speakers and there were quite a few articles, we could have enjoyed watching DirkvdM trying to divide by zero! Arguably, the Esperanto Wiki also has an infinite article-to-native-speaker ratio. :-( SteveBaker 14:10, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

∞. DirkvdM 18:15, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Volapük wikipedia still exists (Vo:Main Page however. Although I see someone has delisted them from wikipedialang (which I'm opposed to but can't be bothered debating) Nil Einne 13:49, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Like I said, 'capita per article' gives whole numbers, which are easier to read. It's the same thing, basically. You guys should really read what I write so we don't have to cover the same ground again. :) DirkvdM 18:15, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikimedia already has a similar list at List of Wikipedias by speakers per article. Thylacoleo 01:57, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

First reaction: Bloody hell, half an hour of my life (if not more) wasted. Second reaction: Ah, see, I'm not nuts, they used people per article as well. :) Third reaction: I missed quite a few. I knew that would be the case, but I didn't think there would be that many in the 10,000 - 100,000 articles bracket.Fourth reaction: Those 30 Volapük speakers are pretty productive, aren't they? Apart from the Ido speakers the only ones with more articles than people. 40.000 per person even!? Nearly all stubs, though ('random article' appears to be 'Pad fädik' in Volapük - first time I found a use for that, btw). Swedish has mostly stubs too, Norwegian and Finnish do a little better. Dutch slightly better still. I haven't checked any more, except English and it surprises me that that doesn't do so much 'better'. On average, the articles are about twice the size of Dutch articles. It would have to be three times the size to compensate for the difference, so the Dutch Wikipedia editors are still more prolific that the English Wikipedia editors. But like I said, especially Dutch native speakers will be quite active at other language Wikipedias (especially the English one), so I think I can conclude that, excluding really minor languages, native Dutch speakers are the most prolific Wikipedians.

Fifth reaction: pride? Nah, that wouldn't be very Dutch. :) DirkvdM 06:59, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Most Volapük articles are bot created I believe. There are a whole load of city etc articles. There has been some controversy over whether they should be listed in wikipedialang. Although they meet the number of articles criteria many people feel they shouldn't be listed given the minimal content in their articles. Others like me while agreeing with the premise disagree with delisting them because it sets a nasty precedent as there is no real way to objective determine quality and although there is currently a resonably large gap between the slightly okay wikipedias and the bot created wikipedias, this isn't guaranteed. Also measures such as depth don't really determine quality so using them seems a bad idea for a number of reasons. You might want to check out Template:Wikipedialang talk and the main page talk page archives for some discussion Nil Einne 13:54, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Of course many English speakers are unable to by circumstance to contribute much or at all to the English wikipedia. And it's obviously not surprising that most languages primarily used in developing countries score very badly whereas the languages that do well are used predominantly in developed countries. English being an international language used in both scores somewhat in between. The fact that most people are more likely to contribute to it then other languages they speak obviously helps to rectify this but not sufficiently (although personally I believe the 600 million estimate used for English is a bit low anyway) Nil Einne 14:07, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

In the list of countries where English is an official language India is the biggest of course, and it makes sense to not include that here, because for (by far) most Indians it isn't their native tongue. The US, Canada, UK, Australia and New Zealand together house some 420 million. Actually, I used the rather low estimate of 310 million. The score should really be 420 million / 2 million = 210. Of course, a lot of USians don't consider English to be their fist language. But a lot of Frisians and Limburgians (and what have you) don't consider Dutch to be their first language, and that 20 million probably includes them. Then again, Netherlands + Flanders = 22 million. Hmmm... DirkvdM 19:08, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Part of this must be that for the very obscure languages, all of the speakers will be able to speak at least one other language. That makes it easy for them to translate articles from other Wikipedia languages. Sadly, there are an awful lot of English speakers who speak nothing else fluently enough to translate it. Also, with 2 million English language articles, finding an article in another language that's not already covered by an English article is tough. So the other languages benefit from an easy source of articles that is largely denied to English Wikipedia. SteveBaker 05:05, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Which, by the way, I have my doubts about. I'd prefer if all Wikipedias would develop completely independently, so each gives a different angle, coming from a different cultural background and (maybe even more importantly) from the sources in those languages. Then, when all are fullgrown (if there is such a thing), all those different angles could be combined into one well-balanced encyclopedia (in, say, Esperanto, for easy translation) that could then be translated back into all those languages. However, I must admit that I also sometimes do the lazy thing for English articles on Dutch subjects by translating the Dutch article. Mea culpa. DirkvdM 17:17, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Car junkyards (or lack thereof)

In the US they have car junkyards, but I can't remember having seen one here in the Netherlands. Nor anywhere else, for that matter, and I've traveled around a bit. One would expect to find these along railroad tracks (where other junkyards are often found), and I travel a lot by train. Where are those car junkyards? Or alternatively, where do the dead cars go? Are they buried so they can go to heaven? :) Or are the cars dismantled and melted down straight away or something? DirkvdM 06:16, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I've seen car junkyards in various nations. Just look where land is cheap.

From Japan, ailing cars go to Russia, and I believe (without bothering to look it up) that elderly, high-polluting buses, with the wrong left-right alignment (as Japan drives on the left) are sent to Vietnam and such countries, and are touted by the Japanese government as "overseas development aid". I guess that a lot of cars and buses go from rich countries to poor ones. -- Hoary 09:24, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

So if there are no junk yards in the Netherlands, do you buy all your car parts new? Dismas|^(talk) 09:52, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

There are hundreds in the UK. Most towns of more than about ten or fifteen thousand people are likely to have at least one, but we call them scrapyards. There are also a few long-established ones in the countryside, but planning controls (what some countries call 'zoning') generally stop new ones from starting outside 'employment areas' for light industry. On your "where do the dead cars go?", I've heard that a lot of dead British cars go to China. Xn4 10:55, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Some Japanese cars also end up in NZ and Australia Nil Einne 13:27, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Plenty in France, too.90.14.18.179 13:25, 8 October 2007 (UTC)petitmichel

In the Netherlands, they seem to be called autosloperijen or autodemontagebedrijven. In Rotterdam, for example, there are a couple of clusters of them on the northern edge of the city. One such cluster is in Hoofdweg, Nikkelstraat, and Chroomstraat in the 3067 postal code. Another smaller cluster is in Gilze-Rijenstraat and Volkelstraat in the 3045 postal code. Marco polo 13:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Whilst scrapheaps/junkyards are an eyesore - they do perform a valuable function in recycling. Perfectly good parts still exist in wrecked or worn-out cars. It's ridiculous to buy (for example) a new starter motor when you can get a virtually new one from a year old car that got smashed in an accident. For some parts like gearboxes - you can save a small fortune by checking out some junkyards before considering a new transmission. The trick is to call them "Automotive recycling specialists" - then it seems so much nicer! SteveBaker 14:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Dismas gave me a thought. I don't own a car, but afaik hardly anyone repairs their car themselves. They take it to the garage, and maybe they've got their own network or indeed they only use new parts, which may be cheaper in the end. Hobbyists don't count the hours they spend on something, but professionals have to. So either they put a lot of effort into it or they have to make the customer wait for days until the part arrives. So maybe only 'hobbyists' would be interested in old parts. And there's a whole lot more of those in the US. Dutch cars aren't 'pimped' or something. That's something that struck me in the US - no-one leaves a car the way they buy it, like the Dutch do. They always alter something about it. Are US junkyards maybe used mostly for that purpose? DirkvdM 18:27, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

They can be used as a source for cheap aftermarket parts, but if I wanted to "pimp my ride," I'd use new parts, not something I got in a junkyard. It's more like if you lose a hubcap on your Honda Civic and don't want to pay the dealer $80 for a new one. -- Mwalcoff 22:56, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, if you were going to "pimp your ride" you'd be getting the latest and greatest. Everything would be new. However, for the people in the off-roading world, many of our parts come from junkyards. Want to replace the rear axle on your Jeep? Go to a junkyard and find an older Ford Explorer to take the 8.8 out of the rear end. The 8.8 is better than the Jeep's stock Dana 35 plus it has disc brakes as opposed to the drum brakes of a Wrangler. Need a new transfer case or transmission for said Jeep, go to the junkyard and pull one from some street-queen Jeep that never left the pavement and was owned by someone who just bought it so that they'd have a convertible that looked "cute". In short, hobbyists love junkyards. Dismas|^(talk) 03:25, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Right, for pimping it doesn't sound likely. Off-roading more so, and that is not done much in the Netherlands, I believe (too many roads :) ). But for example the car that I bought in the US had the rear axel replaced for a heavier one and the transmission changed from manual to automatic. For that, one could just as well use used parts. And that sort of thing is next to never done in the Netherlands (a nephew did something like that to his car (lowering the suspension - a serious problem at speed bumps) and pretty much the whole family laughed at it - I should note that he worked at a garage). Still, another good explanation seems to me to be that garage holders have a network of selling each other parts on demand. each would then have to have only a small supply, taken from the old cars he takes in. In that case, no central collection point is needed. And this makes more sense in a country where people don't work on cars themselves, but leave it to garage holders. Don't know if that's how it actually works, but it makes sense. DirkvdM 07:17, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Scrap yards definitely exist in NZ. Although at least with the ones near me, often the cars are not intact (e.g. the front is seperated from the back). They are definitely used as a source for parts, indeed they often advertised that way. People do definitely repair and/or modify their cars by themselves here. Given our small size and also as we get a lot of Japanese (and occasionally other countries like Singapore) second hand import, genuine parts can sometimes be hard to find, or may need to be imported and would be expensive in any case. Indeed even if people are taking the car to a garage/mechanic, they may source the part themselves. Also, the scrap yard itself may sell the parts to garages etc. This (rather outdated admitedly) link may be helpful [11] Nil Einne 13:27, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Functionality of wedge in NASCAR in detail

For building up the NASCAR section in de.wp, we created a list describing the most common terms and techniques in NASCAR, but now I got a bit confused how the wedge works in detail since the information that can be found on nascar.com is some kind of fuzzy and every other page describes it in some other way, even increasing confusion. Since on en.wp are presumably a lot of more experts in NASCAR, I try to get an answer here. :)

I know wedge describes the crossweight distribution of the car's weight in terms of how much weight is on the right front and left rear wheel. So when I increase the wedge, more weight is transferred to the mentioned wheels and the car is loosing up, because the right rear wheel gets less pressure because of less weight and therefor less grip, right? But now the thing I get confused of: I can make a change to the wedge by changing pressure on the spring on either side. When I put the ratchet in on the right and I want to add a turn of wedge (increasing weight on right front and left rear), do I put pressure on the spring or release pressure? As far as I know, I would release pressure so the car gets down there and the height on the left rear increases in relation to the right rear. And because it gets relatively higher on left rear, it has more weight to carry. To get the same effect when changing on the left side, I have to do it vice versa. Is this correct? --STBR – !? 09:58, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not really an expert on this, but this part of an article seems to explain it pretty well:

"If the driver says that the car is loose in the gas exiting the corner, we’ll put the wedge wrench in a jack bolt in the left-rear window. When you screw down on that left-rear spring, it puts pressure on it and tightens up the car in the gas. If the car is too tight, we go to the right side of the car with the wedge wrench and make the adjustment there. The wedge adjustment changes the load that the springs carry," said McGee.

So when they put a round of wedge in (in the back), it puts more pressure on that spring. That makes sense, since if the car is loose, you want more pressure on the back tires so they grip better. They don't go into what effect ride height has on it, but I don't think that is as important as how the weight is distributed between the four tires. Recury 19:40, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I know that article - and it's one of them confusing me, because in this video NASCAR says when they want to tighten up the car, they take wedge out meaning the car gets more weight at the front left and right rear. According to the article, they put pressure on the left rear spring. Remembering my knowledge in physics, the car should raise a little bit in that corner in relation to the right rear. Because of that it should get more weight on the diagonal right front - left rear, and that is as the video says adding wedge and loosing up the car - the complete opposite. Because of that I ask here what to do with the right rear spring when adding wedge: Do I put pressure on it or do I release it? --STBR – !? 20:52, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

motorway measurements

Where can I find size specifications and averages for UK motorways (i.e. width of lanes, overall width, distance between lights, height of bridges and all these other things)? Keria 15:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

From pictures the lanes look like they are about 11 feet/3.6 meters wide. Keria 17:43, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Tough question. After a bit of googling, I found lots of stuff about Mancunian Way - there's lots of measurements, but not really the ones you are after, but this agrees with 11 feet. The google cache of a Highways Agency page mentions that 3.65m lanes are standard in the UK, but says that 3.5m is common in other countries and has been trialled in the UK with no loss of safety. For the height of bridges, this Mercedes-Benz page says that the standard height is 5m. Bistromathic 21:15, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

eclipse

Why eclipses are somtimes partial and sometimes total? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pjcnic (talk • contribs) 15:40, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

The absolute shadow (the umbra) that the moon casts on the Earth is quite small; you're more likely to be on a part of the planet's surface that is only in the path of the partial shadow (the penumbra) or, even more likely, entirely outside of the path of the shadow. Our solar eclipse article may help you further but here's a link to the Exploratorium that shows the Path of Totality for one recent eclipse [12] and here's more explanation [13].

Atlant 15:46, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Think first of a solar eclipse (when the moon is between earth and sun): Make a fist (that's the moon) - hold it 6" over your desk (that's the earth) - notice how some parts of the shadow around the edge are fuzzy (that's the 'penumbra') and some are solidly shadowed (that's the 'umbra'). If you were a teeny tiny person standing inside that shadow, then within the umbra, the fist/moon would be completely blocking out the sun - so no sunlight falls there and you are completely in shadow. If you are in the fuzzy 'penumbra' region then you can see some of the sun's disk - but not all of it because the moon is in the way - this is a 'partial' eclipse of the sun - because only part of the sun is covered. As the moon moves around the earth, and the earth spins, that shadow moves over the surface of the earth - so some people happen to be inside the umbra for a while - whilst others only get caught by the penumbra - and yet others see no eclipse at all. Because the shadow of the moon on the earth is fairly small - and the coincidence of earth/moon/sun happening to line up, total solar eclipses are quite rare - and the odds of you seeing one in your lifetime are not very large. Partial eclipses are just as rare - but your chances of seeing one when it happens is greater because the penumbra is larger than the umbra.

Secondly, we have the other type of eclipse - a lunar eclipse (when the earth is between sun and moon): Now, we are looking at the shadow cast by the earth onto the moon. In this case, we talk about a total eclipse as being when the moon is completely swallowed inside the earth's shadow (inside the umbra of the earths shadow in fact) - and a partial eclipse is if only part of the moon is covered by the shadow (either umbra or penumbra). Because the earth is much bigger than the moon, lunar eclipses are fairly common - and they are much more often total eclipses than solar eclipses are.

SteveBaker 16:21, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It's a somewhat amazing coincidence that the apparent angular sizes of the Sun and the Moon from Earth are so close that their ranges overlap: that is, the about 11% variation in the Moon's distance from Earth is actually enough to sometimes make the Moon appear smaller and sometimes larger than the Sun. In fact, I believe Earth is the only place in the solar system where both total and annular eclipses by the same body can be seen. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 17:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It's certainly an amazing coincidence - and under those circumstances, one tries to look for a cause (maybe something to do with the anthropic principle) that might make it non-coincidental - but in this case, there doesn't seem to be a cause. It's also interesting to note that the distance from the earth to the moon is increasing - so that millions of years ago, there would have been no annular eclipses at all - and at some time in the future, there will be no total eclipses anymore. So it's not just a coincidence that we live on a planetary system with this property - it's also a coincidence that we happen to live in an era when it's happening. SteveBaker 14:58, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Music Program

I remember seeing a while ago a program that could compose music digitally - that is, it had a library of different instruments playing each note, and an editing system that allowed you to compose sheet music for it to render into a sound file. Any idea where I could find something like that? Black Carrot 15:55, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

You mean something like a music sequencer? —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 17:17, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Or you might be thinking of MIDI, which allows you to play something on one instrument (usually a keyboard) and then play is back with any sound that the machine (or your computer) has available. Note that that does not compose music. That has been done, though, and I've heard such a machine-composition once. Pretty boring, if it weren't a little weird. DirkvdM 07:29, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Scorewriters like Finale notepad (and the non-free versions of Finale) and Sibelius can work like word-processors, but for music. They often also have the capability to play back the music on your choice of synthesised instruments, and some can be plugged into a keyboard to allow you to play the music and see it written for you. Skittle 13:39, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Salt water gargle

Why does gargling salt water help soothe the pain of a sore throat? -- noosphere 16:53, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

This is addressed in the article Gargling. --LarryMac | Talk 19:43, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I believe it may; I gargle salt water and it helps though that may be phycological. The salt can kill bacteria which reduces the sore throat--Phoenix 15 19:46, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it's more to do with the cooling action of the liquid. In my experience it makes no difference if you gargle with plain water or a saline solution. The article on gargling has some suspect science included in the text. There is a need to verify some of the claims made. The idea that an unspecified concentration of saline can remove liquid from the swollen tissues is frankly bad science. There is no evidence in my experience that a saline solution kills bacteria. Human blood is largely a saline solution and it gets infected. Richard Avery 19:55, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's the cooling action of the liquid, because I just gargled with warm salt water and it helped my sore throat. So it must be something else. Plus, I hear warm tea with honey and lemon is also supposed to soothe sore throats, and that doesn't make the throat cooler either. -- noosphere 23:07, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Drinking hot water with honey works for me all the time. bibliomaniac15 23:20, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

hot water with honey and lemon and rum and a Beecham's Powder :) DuncanHill 23:34, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Warm Ribena with honey and lemon and glycerin :D As for 'cooling action', I find drinking cold fluids makes my throat hurt more, and certainly aggravates any cough. Skittle 13:34, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I've read that honey contains some antibiotic properties. Acceptable 00:19, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Here are the answers I got when I asked this same question last December. Dismas|^(talk) 00:31, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Yep, I accept that the idea of cooling is faulty. But I would interested in any objective studies that have been carried out on the effectivenes of say, honey and rum, against plain water or milk. Rethinking the problem leads me to beleive that there may be some lubrication process going on here. sore throats are usually more painful when you swallow and this could be caused by the inflamed and sensitive membrane(s) rubbing against another part of the throat. Gargling applies a lubricant to the parts that are irritated and decreases the friction between the sides of the throat - just a suggestion. Richard Avery 07:46, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

A sore throat is not necessarily dry. If the soreness stems from a viral or bacterial infection (and not from thirst) then there should already be plenty of "lubrication" from the natural saliva in the mouth even before the gargle. Plus, I think gargling with salt water is much more effective than gargling with plain, unsalted water. But, like you, I'd be interested in seeing some good peer-reviewed studies on the matter. -- noosphere 18:43, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Genome

With the human genome being mapped out years ago, do they know which part of the strands make up the code for which part? For example do they know which part on strand x is for or to make the cells that makes up a person's heart or their hair or eyes and eye color. or is this still a mystery and if so when they use gene therapy to treat certain ailments how do they know which gene will make up insulin for example? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.120.230.80 (talk) 18:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

They know what bits of dna do what; see Gene and Introduction to genetics--Phoenix 15 19:42, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

• • We know what some bits of DNA do, but I don't think it's fair to say that the human genome is completely understood -- in fact, the purpose of over 80% of our DNA is still being battled over. --M@rēino 21:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

But, do they know or have identified some genes and what those genes do if they have practiced gene therapy or is that incorrect? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.120.230.80 (talk) 22:14, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

A role for RPE65 in the visual cycle. By supplementing his faulty RPE65 gene with functional copies, doctors hope to treat a man's degenerating eyesight with gene therapy.

We are getting towards understanding our genome, one gene at a time. We do know of a few genes that effect hair and eye colour (MC1R and tyrosinase, for example), though there are certainly more genes out there that have an effect that we don't understand yet. Genes work in complex gene networks, and fully understanding how every gene works and the full range of their influence is the real challenge in genetics. Mapping the genes was a huge undertaking, but it tells us precious little about their function. As such, having a genome sequenced is only the first step in understanding it, to do that we have to study its function. There have been gene therapy trials for some genes with known function. For example, British scientists used gene therapy to treat a gentleman with Leber's congenital amaurosis, which is caused by mutations in the RPE65 gene (see image, right). Its not yet clear how successful the therapy was.

Your question is rather timely, actually, as today the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine was awarded to Sir Martin Evans, Mario Capecchi and Oliver Smithies "for their discoveries for introducing specific gene modifications in mice by the use of embryonic stem cells." The Nobel Committee awarded this prize because their discoveries allowed us to "knock out" genes in mice (and other model organisms) and knock others in in their place. Gene knockouts and knock-ins are among the most important tools we have towards understanding how complex genes work. The BBC reported today that "around half" off the genes from mice have been knocked out, with the other half "predicted to follow soon." [14] In humans, we can't knock genes out (yet), but we can study people with genetic diseases, some of which are similar to natural gene "knockouts." So, I think it is fair to say that there are few if any genes about which we know everything there is to know, but we do have some idea about some functions of some genes. As Mareino says, though, the genes themselves are just as small piece of the jigsaw. To really understand how genes work we need to understand how their regulatory elements control their expression, and then there is all the other non-coding DNA: we really don't have much of a clue what the function of that is. There is still much work to be done. Rockpocket 22:34, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

As I understand it (this is actually more of a question than an answer), genes are codes for enzymes and those enzymes have some effect somewhere in the body. I assume that once you know the genes, you instantly know what enzyme they will make. It's a different matter to know what effect those enzymes have. Or when and how the production is activated. Or whether a certain gene is ever used at all. I believe the vast majority are considered to be obsolete - they're never used afawk. Also, it's not just that one enzyme does one thing - it's usually a complex interaction, probably with a lot of feedback as well. Let me restate that I barely know what I'm talking about. :) I'm basically asking if I got this right. DirkvdM 07:37, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

The classical view of a gene is that it codes for a protein. This protein could be an enzyme and catalyse a chemical reaction. It could also be a non-catalytic protein - it might bind other proteins, provide structural support, fluoresce, etc, etc, etc. Knowing the DNA sequence of a gene will generally tell you the amino acid sequence of the protein - but the amino acid sequence does not really tell you much useful information. Alternative splicing can mess this up a bit - where parts of a protein are derived from separate regions of DNA and stuck together in unusual orders.

The junk DNA label is falling out of favour. When the genome sequences were done, people saw that there were not as many protein-coding (classical) genes as they had expected. We weren't all that better than a worm. Our genome is quite a bit bigger, though. So, a lot of our genome doesn't code for protein. What is now beginning to be realised is that this other DNA is anything but junk - most of it is transcribed (copied from DNA to RNA), and it seems likely that these non-protein-coding RNAs have very important functions in regulating gene expression.

But wait there's more! This regulation adds a whole new dimension (or 2, or 3) to the whole system. Genes can be regulated to produce different proteins from the same gene. They can be regulated temporally in terms of development, circadian rhythms, other triggers. They can be regulated spatially (eg in some organs, in some cells in some organs). They can also be regulated spatially within a cell by compartmentalising (compartments in a cell include: nucleus, mitochondria, ER, cytoplasm).

The feedback between all this stuff going on is mind-boggling. I'm sure that we really don't have a clue. There are many examples of X regulates Y by turning it off, for example. But, in reality it is much more subtle than this, IMHO.

So, in conclusion! Gene's don't make up body parts. Every gene is in every cell in your body. The communication between and within cells tells that cell which proteins to make and this makes that cell what it is (eg. a cardiomyocyte for a heart). Some genes do say "blue eyes" (just an example, I don't know if such a gene exists), but most are simply involved in normal cellular processes. Alright, I'll stop rambling. I think I may have missed the point of the question, but I had fun. Ask me for clarification if you want. Aaadddaaammm 07:59, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Eye color#Determination of eye color describes the multiple genes involved. Rmhermen 17:45, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I forgot to ask, in finding certain genes is one way to do comparisons, like compare if someone had green eyes look on genome for areas that are the same for those with the same eye color but would be different in someone who had blue or brown. A better example would probably be someone with a certain disease like Huntington's if they compared the genomes of all those who had it compared to those who don't and see the difference in those who don't but the similarities to those who do?

Yes. Historically, that was how we would identify genes, or loci, that caused disease or resulted in a certain characteristic. In mice we would do something called recombination or linkage mapping. Essentially, we would focus on a characteristic that were were interested in, say for example melanism. We would then get a mouse that was melanic (black) and then mate it with a mouse from different strain that was yellow in colour. Of the offspring, a certain number of mice would be melanic. These mice must have the gene that caused melanism, however they would also have 50% of the genes from the yellow strain. We would then take one of these mice and mate it with another mouse from the same yellow strain. Again, a certain number of offspring would be melanic. Again, we would know that these mice had the melanic gene yet now 75% of their genes would be from the yellow strain, meaning the melanic gene must be among the 25% that come from the black strain. This process (called back-crossing) would be repeated more times, each time the number of genes from the black strain would get less and less, allowing us to narrow down where the melanic gene is. Eventually we would be able to say, for example, the gene resides on a small region on chromosome 8. With the advent of molecular biology tools, we were then able to do something called chromosome walking that enabled us to identify the exact gene in that region. Once we had the sequence of the gene in the black strain, we would compare it to the equivalent gene in the yellow strain and, if we were correct, we would see a polymorphism that explained the difference in coat colour.

In humans, we obviously can't breed people together simple for the sake of identifying genes. However, we can do a similar type of analysis if we get a large enough popular size. Essentially what we do is compare the genes of people who have a disease with their siblings (who share many of the same genes) but to do have the disease. If we look at enough people, we begin to see genetic similarities. This is not particularly difficult for simple, monogenic (single gene) disorders or characteristics. But as we have already established, many diseases are polygenic (are a result of many genes interacting). Finding genes for complex disorders such as psychiatric illness or heart disease gets very difficult using this method, as instead of looking for a binary characteristic (disease or no disease; black or yellow coats) you are looking for what we call a quantitative trait locus (QTL). Mapping QTLs require a fair bit of statistical knowhow and, speaking from personal experience, can be hellish. Rockpocket 18:16, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

movies

Was Jester Hairston work in "Lilies of the field"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.40.140.38 (talk) 20:59, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

According to Jester Hairston, he wrote and sang the song Amen in that film. Algebraist 23:06, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Jewellery

I would like to know the correct name for a person who re-strings beads - I think it may be French and begin with a 'P'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.140.84.141 (talk) 21:17, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

We don't seem to have anything at Category:Beadwork, and Google doesn't seem to help. Perhaps you would have more luck asking at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language. Rockpocket 06:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

October 9

Dopamine during exercise

Does one's brain produce an increased amount of dopamines, endorphins and other "pleasure" chemicals during painful exercise such as a rapid hill-climb on a bike or a 400-m sprint? Acceptable 00:18, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't it depend on how a specific person reacts to such activities? Some love riding bikes or cars fast, others'd be scared out of their wits by it. --Ouro (blah blah) 08:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

loans and business

I was currently talking to my friend who is an loan officer, and he was telling me about this new program where the government is offering home loans. I currently live in california where the loan bussiness was booming until about last year or so due to so many defaults on sub-prime loans and foreclosers to say the least. In a resault of that many lenders have been bankrupt or just out of bussiness including some banks as well. Now back to my friend the information he got was from a real estate broker, the broker explianed he can loan any body money reguardless of their credit even dead loans. I just want to know if the programs really excist and how would I be able to be the middle man for such a great program. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adrianocarlino (talk • contribs) 00:58, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Nope, probably not. If there was such a program, why are we in the mess we are now? Splintercellguy 01:55, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Such a program would be a mess. —Tamfang 17:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

How do I include a square root sign in a Word document?

I'm doing A Maths formula notes. --166.121.36.10 02:23, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Go to "insert" (next to "file", "edit", "view", etc.), "symbol" and scroll down a ways, or click the menu in the upper right and go to "mathematical operators." --Ybbor^Talk 02:38, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

If you have to include more complicated mathematics, there is usually a program called Microsoft Equation Editor hidden away in your Microsoft Office folder. --24.147.86.187 05:11, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that will work for very simple stuff. If you have to make documents containing mathematical symbols on a regular basis, though, you'd better learn LaTeX. Be warned that you'll need a pretty significant time investment up front, but in the long run there's no contest -- a lot of the stuff you want to do would drive you nuts if you had to use Equation Editor, and I'm not even sure it could do them at all. --Trovatore 06:14, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Concur. The Equation Editor is basically no good/very difficult to use properly if you need to include complex formulas in your documents, and it's true it doesn't allow much freedom if you need to include something that's not too common. Cheers, Ouro (blah blah) 09:19, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Right, but I generally assume that if someone doesn't know about LaTeX then they probably don't really need to use it. Usually if you need to represent complex equations someone has clued you in to it already and what it is good for (since it is basically indespensible for such things). For simple things, Equation Editor can get the job done, though it is a pain in the neck. --24.147.86.187 14:04, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Then again, it's nice to know there are alternatives out there. Someone else reading this thread (other than the OP, such as a mathematical genius bereft of the benefit of formal education, with access to nothing else besides Wikipedia) may find the information useful. dr.ef.tymac 20:38, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Loretta Claiborne

What kind of "mental retardation" is Loretta Claiborne supposed to have? It says in her article here:

She holds a black belt in karate, communicates in four languages, including sign language, and holds honorary doctorate degrees from Quinnipiac College and Villanova University, making her the first person with mental retardation known to receive such honors, according to the Special Olympics organization.

Okay, if a person can do all that, they are NOT retarded. --124.254.77.148 06:12, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I can't answer the specific question, but just to clarify a few points concerning the quoted passage:

• Grading to black belt in karate requires dedication, fitness and physical co-ordination, but I would not rank it as an intellectual challenge. Memorising the kata is largely muscle memory, I believe.
• "Communicating" in four languages could mean any level of competence from a few basic words upwards. The sign language makaton is sometimes taught to people with learning difficulties, to facilitate functional communication.
• An honorary degree can be awarded to recognise a person's achievements in any field. You do not have to pass exams to be awarded an honorary degree.

Without wishing to minimise Loretta's achievements, it is certainly possible for a person with mild learning difficulties to do each of the things mentioned. Gandalf61 09:10, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps this is a cultural thing, but I'm extremely uncomfortable with the term "mental retardation". --Dweller 12:29, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

There is a lot of debate still over whether it should be used as a term, or whether something like "developmentally disabled" should be used instead (see Mental_retardation#Alternative_terms). Personally I think the terms indicate somewhat different things, and think that the word "retardation" has unfortunately taken on a negative association due to playground antics but that any term eventually would. "Mental retardation" was a term initially set up to be a neutral assignment, as opposed to the older terms like "feeble-minded" and "moron", but unsurprisingly it itself has shifted in its neutrality. It's not an easy call to make; there isn't an obvious replacement word that conveys specifically the sort of cognitive deficiencies that "mental retardation" does without also lumping it in with things like dyslexia, which is very different. (As someone who occasionally works on mental health related issues, I have struggled with the terminology acutely, in part because I also work on historical issues relating to it, where "mentally retarded" is already a departure from what the historical actors were saying, but is far more specific than the other terms.) Now, I'm aware that the term "retardation" is normative (it assumes there is a standard ability), but frankly I think that dressing up our meaning in increasingly meaningless words is not a great approach to things, as long as they are explicitly and overtly meant to be offensive... --24.147.86.187 14:25, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

(Interesting?) aside; the phenomenon you describe whereby newly-coined "neutral" terms become tainted by the same problems of the terms they were created to replace is called the euphemism treadmill. FiggyBee 14:40, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

The term intellectual disability seems to becoming more common. Now here's a question: why does our article on intellectual disability redirect to Developmental disability, while Mental retardation is a separate article? Shouldn't those latter two be merged? - Eron ^Talk 14:32, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

The catch-all in the UK seems to be "learning disabled", which is gentler. I suspect I was right and there are cultural differences. I quite like EronMain's "intellectual disability". What term/s do the Special Olympics use? --Dweller 14:35, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

The continual search for ever more politically correct "non-negative" names for what is without doubt a negative condition is truly fruitless - and each consecutive renaming is less meaningful. Sadly, negative terms have to be used for negative conditions. Mental Retardation is a perfectly accurate description. It's a problem of the mind - a 'mental' problem - and 'retardation' means slowing or being held back...which is precisely what's going on here. So, let's just use the right term and not end up with "differently mind capable" or some such nonsense. SteveBaker 14:42, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong in avoiding offence. There are plenty of colourful terms that in the past would have been used in encylopedias that would not have raised eyebrows, that today no rational good faith editor would use, particularly referring to peoples' ethnicity, colour, religion and, yes, disability. --Dweller 14:45, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

But is there any evidence that the afflicted here are offended by the term? In my experience it is never the afflicted in this case who give a damn what the label is—it is instead the self-appointed representatives who apparently care. It's also an odd case, where the "offense" comes not from applying the term to those who are supposed to be designated by it, but to those who are not, which then made it a term of stigma, which then went back against the way it was originally applied. (Ditto "moron", whereas "feeble-minded", by contrast, is a more obviously offensive and dismissive, non-clinical sounding term.) Maybe I sound in particular irritated by this, but I don't really see this as being the same thing as calling someone African-American or Black instead of Negro, which is a change in terminology lobbied for by the so-labeled group itself. I see this as somewhat misguided, in the same way that people decided that "Native American" was somehow less offensive than "Indian" (both are labels given by and in reference to the colonizers), and when used correctly I don't think the term "mental retardation" is offensive or non-clinical, and has decided advantages over all of the proposed alternatives. --24.147.86.187 15:29, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Special Olympics uses intellectual disability, as do the International Paralympic Committee and other sports organizations working with athletes with a disability. It works quite nicely in parallel with the term physical disability. - Eron ^Talk 14:50, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

They would seem to be useful precedents, working in international settings too. --Dweller 14:56, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Note again that "learning disabled" can mean a whole lot of things; if I were dyslexic I would not want to be in the same category as the severely mentally retarded. Saying "severely learning disabled" doesn't really indicate exactly what is going on. Anyway, that's my objection, really — the replacement terms are terribly inspecific. I wouldn't mind a new euphemism coming along, but I'd want it to be as specific as the old one. Ditto "intellectually disabled", which sounds like it can describe a number of athletes I have taught ;-) , but more seriously seems to me to under-emphasize that we are talking about a category of cognitive ability that is far lower than what you would find in the average population. If I say that someone is "mentally retarded" one immediately knows that I have indicated they are in a distinct category different from the "merely stupid", whereas with "intellectually disabled" it is very fuzzy and probably purposely so. While there might be good intentions in not drawing such a sharp line between groups, the fuzziness leads to a lot of unintentional ambiguity and can be very, very misleading. --24.147.86.187 15:29, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that this is another one of those 'continuum' things. We have all shades of 'mental disability' ranging from the mildest things to the worst - at some point you have to draw a line and use the term consistently. Where more shades of meaning are required, we need to qualify those terms. But dyslexia IS in most cases a 'learning disability' and since learning is to do with what happens in the brain, it's also a 'mental disability' - the problem is with people who (a) assume that a mental disability means someone who belongs in an asylum and needs to be drugged continually...and (b) people who have a relatively mild problem like dyslexia who do not want to be misidentified by the people in group (a). It's a pain in the ass that the (a) type people are out there doing that - but I don't think there is much we can do about it. Every time we come up with a word that they won't mis-identify, they change their language to match. Words like "idiot" and "moron" which are now DEEPLY offensive were once fairly accurately defined scientific terms with no special stigma attached to them. "mentally retarded" has spun off "mental" and "retard" as similarly tainted terms. But as fast as we find new euphonisms, they get coopted by the (a)-type people and piss off the (b)-types. I have Asperger syndrome - if someone calls me "mentally retarded", I'd be forced to agree that in some respects that's true...I'm useless at understanding other people's emotions, I'm socially inept and I have to strongly resist the temptation to neaten up the shelf displays at supermarkets as I walk past. Sure - that's a mental retardation. (Of course I can kick butt at science, math and computers...but that's a different thing). If the term "mentally retarded" was a mere banner term that everyone understood to mean "anyone below the 20th percentile in some subset of the mental arts" - there would be no problem in accepting that. SteveBaker 18:20, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Wow. I find it hard to relate to any of what 187 has just said. People are people first, with a range of abilities and disabilities. They have the right to choose how they want to be categorised or labelled - if at all. There is no need to put other people into nice tidy pigeon holes, just to suit our own convenience. Gandalf61 15:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I have a lot of problems with that. Firstly, I don't think there is a universal 'right' to choose how you want to be categorised of labelled. I might want people to categorise me "nicest guy in the known universe with the highest IQ in history" - but I don't think I have any right to insist on it - that's no different from someone with an IQ of 50 demanding to be called "normal" rather than "mentally retarded". Secondly, we DO have to put people into nice tidy pigeon holes for a lot of reasons - for example, if we want to have the para-olympics for "disabled" people - we need to have a pidgeon hole for disabled people or perfectly fit athletes will take over and win all of the events. If we want to provide health care for people with particular categories of disability or pass laws to guarantee suitable education - you have to pidgeonhole those people who qualify separately from those who don't. I'm sorry - but as cute and touchy-feely as your sentiments are - they are just that - sentimental. We MUST categorise people and we CANNOT allow people to simply choose their own category. If we did then we'd be unable to provide the less fortunate amongst us the things they need in order to have some reasonable prospect of a decent life. SteveBaker 18:05, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Steve, I was talking about how people wish to be referred to, not whether they qualify for health care. Yes, it is sometimes necessary to assess, measure and grade people, but it is essential to remember that each individual is more than the sum of their statistics. Gandalf61 23:01, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

But you have to have a way to talk about a collection of people with similar problems in order to set rules, allocate resources and so forth. That guarantees that these 'pidgeon-hole' terms must be applied to people. If the law says that (say) physically disabled people get 10% of their health care paid for by the government - then those people have to be referred to by that term in that context. Sure, everyone is an individual - but we can't let that limit our ability to talk about groups of similar people with a convenient shorthand term. If we have to list all thousand or so brain conditions in order to say "mentally retarded" every time, we'll never get the help those people need. Sure, there is a spectrum of conditions - but you just have to apply limits and define general terms in order to make use of the language to communicate. SteveBaker 04:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Whatever term people may like to use for themselves, it's a safe bet few would be happy to be called "the afflicted". In any case, I disagree that one term is inherently more understandable than another. If someone knows what "mental retardation" implies it is because they have learned that definition. It is possible to learn other terms in the same way. I also don't agree that "intellectually disabled" is fuzzy. It uses two combines two fairly well-known concepts - intelligence, and disability. There is no lack of clarity with the similarly constructed "physically disabled"; no one confuses that with the "merely clumsy". I personally think both "retardation" and "delay" (as in "developmental delay") are unsatisfactory as they imply a slowing down of development, as opposed to an absence or severe incapacity of certain functions. - Eron ^Talk 16:06, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

what???

I want to know the event happened at Columbia at 1975. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.127.123.127 (talk) 06:59, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid you are going to have to be more specific. There are a hell of a lot of places called Columbia. Could you tell us exactly which Columbia you are referring to? Rockpocket 07:24, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Go to 1975, search for 'Columbia' and you'll find nothing. Search for 'Colombia' (the country) and you'll find "Government of Colombia announces finding of Ciudad Perdida." Maybe that's what you were looking for? DirkvdM 07:55, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

• There's also the (part-free, part-pay) New York Times search archive. For example, if you wanted Columbia University, here's the list of all the stories from 1975. --M@rēino 13:53, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

The Class of '75 graduated. The Class of '79 arrived. Altogether there were 1,146 New York Times stories about Columbia University [15], and 105 about Columbia College [16], for which there is a charge, although you could view them free on microfilm or perhaps via computer and ProQuest at a large public library. In 1975 the faculty voted to admit women for the first time. The Trustees dismissed it as "impractical and short-sighted." (Dec. 14, 1975) (Eventually they changed their minds. The college commemorated the 200th anniversary of a revolution which resulted in a name change from "King's College." (Nov. 11, 1975) Edison 04:22, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Albury-Wodonga

If someone lived in Wodonga, would they be able to attend school in Albury and vice-versa? --Candy-Panda 07:29, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes. [17] FiggyBee 07:59, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you! :) --Candy-Panda 08:26, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I can confirm this from my own experience. I was born in Albury, lived there till I was 10, and went to school there. One of the kids in my school was Shane Stone, who lived in Wodonga at the time. -- JackofOz 09:17, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Further confirmation. My mother lived in Wodonga and did all her schooling in Albury. I will assume this would be so that one can choose whether to do the HSC or VCE. Albury students do the HSC, Wodonga students do the VCE (we have similar things here in ACT) Steewi 00:54, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

jornal on training

please find jurnals of training220.247.225.30 08:40, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

What kind of training are you referring to? --Richardrj ^{talk email} 10:18, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

receiving air traffic radio on a fm radio from a distance.

yes i'e seen the archive post but my question is a little more in depth.

I live about 20 km from the nearest airport and i'm a pilot and i understand radio theory as much as the next pilot( which is prbly more than the average joe_), i was just wondering if there was a way to boost the range of my fm receiver( a simple modified household am/fm radio that can receive the proper HF's) so i can pick up my aiports air traffic frequency's. Is it just a simple matter of extending my anntena? I know i can pick up the radio from my plane that is just a couple thousand feet above my house, but that doesn't mean much since radio readablilty increases with hieght.

Is there any way i can modifiy my radio more to pick up the frequencies from my house? What i've done so far is just mess around wih the coils and modulation boxes. i can easily pick up air traffic on this radio when i'm at the airport. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.65.125.84 (talk) 10:01, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, put your antenna as high as you can get it. You could use a directional antenna for more gain, or if it's inherently directional play with the orientation, which may or may not correspond exactly to the compass heading. An amplifier at the antenna will help. The antenna (and transmission line) is the thing you want to max out first. (I'm a former First Phone.) --Milkbreath 10:26, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree FM is pretty much a line-of-sight thing - that's why your reception gets better with height - you can see further. So you don't need a longer antenna (antenna design is a subtle and complex business - longer is not necessarily better) - you need to put the antenna up higher. SteveBaker 14:27, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Airports air traffic frequencies are arround 130-140 MHz, FM is 88-108 MHz. Also, they uses (if i remember correctly) AM (amplitude modulation), not FM. Frequency converter for converting from 130-140 to (for example) 98-108 should be possible. (When in this area FM transmitters were modified from using 65-73 MHz to 100-108 MHz, for some time there were available converters). Also there will be need to modify detector to receive AM, which could be more complicated. -Yyy 07:46, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

World flag

Is there a world flag? Keria 12:20, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia knows all - see our article on Earth flag. Gandalf61 12:34, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

There's also a world citizen flag.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 12:44, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Wow. What ugly flags! Personally, I prefer the Flag of the United Nations. FiggyBee 13:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that the Flag of the United Nations is probably also the one that most people think of when they hear the term "world flag." --M@rēino 13:55, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, ugly. Their only saving grace is that their colours are green and gold. -- JackofOz 14:06, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

While we're talking about flags, I always thought the Flag of the IAEA was impressively kick-ass. It has a wonderful art-deco, Sputnik-era feel to it. --24.147.86.187 14:08, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

The rainbow flag is associated with inclusiveness amongst other things - and would be a good choice should we ever need a earth flag87.102.18.10 14:46, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

The olympic flag, although predominantly associated with sport and the olympics is also a world flag in some ways. Oh and the Voyager Golden Record & Pioneer plaque while not exactly flags were intended to represent our world Nil Einne 14:18, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

It's important to note though that absolutely none of those things are in any way "official" because none of those organisations truly represent every nation on earth. So "Is there a world flag?" is "Yes - in fact there are many of them" - but "Is there an official, universally accepted world flag?" is "No - and there is never likely to be such a thing!". Can you just imagine the grief when some colours are reserved for religious regions and others are the colours of royalty and some combinations have nasty historical connotations. There is no way you'd get everyone to agree on a single flag. SteveBaker 17:56, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Saying that the UN doesn't represent every nation on Earth is a bit pedantic. According to United Nations member states, the non-members are Vatican City (which has observer status anyway), Palestine, Western Sahara and Taiwan, whose sovereignty are debatable, and the Cook islands and Niue, which are represented by New Zealand.130.88.79.24 09:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

There's also (at least one) World anthem (song) just in case you're interested. dr.ef.tymac 20:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

The Internationale obviously also has such aspirations. Or should I say 'had'? DirkvdM 17:37, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Worldwide dog ownership statistics for new article

Hi,

I'm hoping to do an article on dog ownership, to complement some others on pet ownership. An add-on section to Most popular dogs in the world or something.

Can someone help me find resources? I'm looking for stats on worldwide dog ownership by country, rather than within countries. So a table of the form <country name> <pet dog population> or something. or any stats on dog ownership. But not just the KC records of a few individual selected countries. Something about global pet dog ownership stats.

Any help much appreciated!

FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 14:21, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

's gonna be difficult. You might try some dog-owner, pet care or animal rights organisations (on a national level) or things like that, they could possibly give you numbers. I have heard a figure like the ones you are looking for ONCE in my life - a few years back on TV - that in Poland there are about eight million dogs. I suppose this could be true, although this IS a lot for a country with roughly ~38m residents. Cheers, Ouro (blah blah) 08:35, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

barber shops

why is it that the prices listed in barber shops are what you pay? (i.e. no tax is added at the register) No other legitimate businesses that I can think of do this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.217.195.89 (talk) 15:04, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Do you fancy telling us in which country this pertains. In the UK prices displayed for consumers are cited inclusive of value added tax & represent what you pay at the checkout. --Tagishsimon (talk) 15:07, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

There is an odd phenomenon: In the UK, almost all prices are stated inclusive of tax (VAT) - but in the US, they hardly ever are. When I ask people why, Brits say "Well, when I'm shopping, I want to know what I'm actually going to pay for the item - so of course the price should include tax". Here in Texas (at least), Americans say "I want to know how much tax I'm paying - so I need to see that separately."...I guess it goes along with the much bigger mistrust of 'big government' here. Another theory I have about that is that in the UK, VAT purchase taxes are uniform across the entire country. Here in the US, it varies from city to city, state to state - so I guess that being able to see the tax (at least at the checkout) is somewhat useful. Personally, I find it a pain in the ass! If I've only got a $20 in my pocket and I want to buy something that costs close to $20, I have no clue of the exact tax rate on this specific item in this specific city without going to the checkout. Urgh!

I can't say I've noticed that barber shops are any different - but I suppose it's possibly because they are a rare example of a pure service industry. Almost anything else you buy in a retail setting is mostly a product (a hat, a chair, a burger) - but when you get a haircut, aside perhaps from a tiny dab of hairgel or whatever - you are paying for the labor of the person doing the work. Perhaps in whatever country you are talking about, there is no tax on services? SteveBaker 15:19, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

(EC) Actually not everywhere in the UK does this, which can throw you a little - for instance if you visit Makro - their prices are not inclusive of VAT. Lanfear's Bane 15:22, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Even Makro's price tickets include both the net and gross prices. It's just that the bigger, bolder number is the <ahem> cheaper one. --Dweller 15:29, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

And members of the general public are not admitted to Makro. DuncanHill 15:34, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

In the UK, displayed prices must include any taxes, by law, unless the goods are intended for trade use (as at Makro, who require a trade pass).--Shantavira|^{feed me} 15:36, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

(ec) Which means that it makes sense for the prices they display not to include VAT. If the retailer is registered for VAT, they can reclaim VAT paid back. So the ex-VAT price is the price they ultimately pay. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:38, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

In Australia, too, the law "prohibits promotion of part of the price without also specifying the cash price of the product". FiggyBee 15:51, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I think the real reason stores here in the USA don't list prices is because tax varies from state to state and they don't want to appear to be higher priced than their competitors in neighboring states. By listing the pre-tax price people blame the state instead of blaming the retailer.69.95.50.15 16:50, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Are there places with multiple sales tax rates (other than exempting food and a few other items entirely)? If not, sales tax is easy to compute because it's applied only to the gross retail price; whereas value added tax as I understand it is applied in increments every time a product changes hands – when the manufacturer buys the parts, when the wholesaler buys from the manufacturer, when the retailer buys from the wholesaler, and when the consumer buys from the retailer. So, if the consumer were made aware of the last increment of VAT, it wouldn't mean much; and the retailer may not know how much VAT was paid in previous increments and so cannot advise the consumer of it. —Tamfang 16:57, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

In Virginia, the sales tax on groceries is 2.5% and on other items it is 5%. --LarryMac | Talk 17:36, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

The simplest answer, within the States, is that barbers set an unlisted price such that the price-with-tax is a nice round number. I lived next door to a pizza place in college that did the same thing -- all menu items went to the quarter because actual prices looked like $1.13. — Lomn 15:38, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Showing my ignorance there, I was not aware of the ability to claim the VAT back etc, I was with someone in Makro as opposed to doing my weekly shopping there. You only ever eat a 24 pack of Heinz beans once before you go back to Tesco. Lanfear's Bane 15:41, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I've no idea of the VAT setup in the US, but perhaps it is exempt of VAT? I know in the UK we have certain goods/services that are VAT free because they are 'essential'. Perhaps (though probably not) barbers come into this group? If this were the case then it would make sense. I think the UK way makes more sense than showing everything pre tax price - though due to America's state-variable amount it could have a rule to say that the price should display both excluding and including VAT - thus you get the best of both worlds. ny156uk 16:31, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

That's easy. There is no VAT setup in the US. --LarryMac | Talk 17:36, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

When I get my car serviced, I pay sales tax on parts and fluids but not on labor. Perhaps the barber's service, which is almost pure labor, is not taxable (at least in some places)? —Tamfang 16:57, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

There is no VAT per se in the US, at least not in any jurisdiction I'm aware of. Most jurisdictions do have sales tax, which is a little different -- you're taxed on the entire price of the item, not on the value added by the last manufacturer to touch it. Usually at a lower percentage than VAT -- most sales taxes run 5 to 10 percent. This may be part of the reason that it makes sense to leave it out of the stated price -- with a sales tax you can predict the exact final price (assuming you know the tax rate); with a VAT you'd have to know how much the manufacturer paid for the inputs. --Trovatore 17:34, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think everyone here understands the distinction between VAT (which is purely a European Community concept) and sales tax (which is pretty much everywhere else in the world). VAT has some odd properties. The theory is that if I'm a store and I buy some commodity, I pay VAT on that - then I add my profit - and I charge my customers VAT on the total price (which is more than the VAT I paid when I bought the item). The difference between what VAT I collected and what I paid is owed to the government. HOWEVER - if your business is big enough (and I have no clue what the current threshold is), you are allowed to buy items VAT-free (ie you pay no VAT when you buy the item) - and when you charge VAT to your customers, you owe the government the entire amount. Either way, the government collects that same fixed percentage of the final cost - but it may either be collected in small increments as the goods goes from raw materials to parts to finished product to wholesaler to retailer to the consumer...or it may be collected in one big lump in the final stage (or some combination of those things).

Depending where you are in Europe, the VAT rate may vary. As may the list of things that get charged at a higher "Luxury item" VAT rate and the things that are excempt from VAT. As I recall from the last time I was living in the UK, childrens clothes, school supplies, books and food were exempt from VAT and there was nothing in the 'luxury item' category. I'm fairly sure things have changed since then though. SteveBaker 17:50, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

• Two more things:
  • There's a psychological factor. In the USA, customers are expected to tip the barber. American customers are used to paying one bump-up from the list price because of state sales tax. If the sales tax were not hidden in the price, the customer would see two bump-ups -- tax and tip -- but, as the saying goes out of sight, out of mind.
  • For some unscrupulous barbers, this also helps with tax evasion. Barbers are much more likely than most other businesses to (1) have the owner work the cash register, (2) operate almost entirely in paper money, not electronic money. If your receipts don't print out sales tax -- or if you work without receipts at all -- it's easier to let some money slip through the cracks. --M@rēino 18:49, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Part of the reason the prices in the UK and other places are quoted inclusive of VAT is to avoid the iniquitous problems associated with price games, whereby a person si told one price, then pays another.

A private consumer in the UK (for example) buying a £1000 computer is obligated to pay an ultimate out-of-pocket cost of £1117.50 (because the VAT is 100% non-recoverable). A business buying a £1000 computer is obligated to pay an ultimate out-of-pocket cost of £1000 (because the VAT is 100% recoverable). The same applies to supplies of most services.

FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 00:07, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

One more thing: even in the US (and Canada, with the same practice of adding tax(es) to the marked price), there are in fact "other legitimate businesses" where the marked or advertised price is frequently (not necessarily always) the price you pay. These include:

• gas stations
• admission fees to movies, plays, museums, and parks
• buses and trains, both urban and long-distance
• small refreshment stands

For gas stations, I presume the rule originated because the pump was already multiplying the 10.82 gallons you bought by the price per gallon and it seemed silly to then make the attendant do arithmetic on the resulting number, in a time when he would have had to do it himself. Most of the other cases, like barber shops, involve businesses that charge only a small number of different prices and can easily choose to set them so as to avoid dealing with small change -- if they don't have to have sales tax added to the rounded price.

--Anonymous, 04:45 UTC, October 10, 2007.

Synesthesia

No, I'm not asking for medical advice, so all of you who are going to tell me Wikipedia is not allowed, shut up. I'm just wondering if anyone else thinks that this sounds like color synesthesia: every time I hear a song, I associate it with a color. Hey Jude is purple, Everlong is a dark, brooding blue, Where the Streets Have No Name is, for some reason, both black and white (they contrast to create a very nice picture), and Immigrant Song is a greyish white.

I know it sounds weird, but I can't hear a song without having a color that sticks with it... Sometimes it makes sense (I think of green when I hear Kryptonie because Kryptonite is, in fact, green) and sometimes it doesn't (Clocks is white, and I've no idea why). I've never met anyone else who does this, and I just read the article on CS. Musical prowess runs in my family, as well. It seems to me that it fits pretty well - anyone else think so? --69.144.233.96 17:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I believe synesthesia would entail you literally seeing those colours when you hear the song...not just having some vague feeling that a particular colour belongs with a song. But it's really tough to know how another person sees or thinks because we have no way to compare. The way they test for this would be (in your case) to play you hundreds of songs that you've never heard before - ask you to specify the colour you see/hear for each one - then come back (say) a week later so you can't possibly have memorized the songs and colours - play the songs again in a different order and see what percentage of them come back with the same colour for you. True synesthetes can pass this test easily and will score close to 100%. You could probably do this yourself with an MP3 player...fill it up with songs you don't know - listen to them through in order, writing down the colour and the title on the MP3 player. Wait a week, put the player on "shuffle play" mode and (without looking at your original notes - repeat the exercise noting colour and title. Now compare your two lists and see how many you got right. Then I think you'll know for sure. SteveBaker 18:40, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

• Brillant answer, Steve! I second it! --M@rēino 18:51, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

There are many tests to check whether you have synesthesia or not (such as those shown in our article). For some reason I think you won't be categorized as such. --Taraborn 22:08, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

In the meantime you might enjoy a song by The Bobs called Synaesthesia -- I think it's off their Shut Up and Sing album.

When The Beatles sing

It's a yellow thing

And the Stones are always purple

Heavy metal

Is ultraviolet

It's unhealthy

But I love that Coppertone glow

--Trovatore 18:53, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Something similar happens to me with musical notes and chords. C and C major are yellow, E minor is a different kind of yellow, E and E major are blue, A and A major are red, A minor is a different kind of red, B and B major are orange, D and D major are green... Adam Bishop 19:01, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

That's very interesting. Do you have perfect pitch? What do you 'see' if a tone isn't a Western note/frequency? — Matt Eason ^{(Talk &#149; Contribs)} 19:48, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Not at all, I can barely read music, I have only guitar skills of middling quality (but doesn't everyone!). I've never thought about non-Western music like that, I'll have to pay attention next time I hear some. Adam Bishop 00:57, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Btw, thank you for telling the deletionists to shut up. Maybe if they'd 'shut up and sing' they'd get a life. :) DirkvdM 17:57, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Who is "Ted Lapidus" ??

I know that there's a fragrance called "Ted Lapidus", and maybe there's a company called so.. but I want to know who's the person which are these things named after??.. Ahmad510 20:09, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Here's a (not terribly detailed) biography — Matt Eason ^{(Talk &#149; Contribs)} 20:33, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

tigers

Can someone help, I'm looking for pictures of tiger kittens and your encyclopaedia doesn't seem to have any. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.159.90.79 (talk) 20:12, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

There's a few on Wikimedia Commons, like these ones. There may be more if you search around there. - Eron ^Talk 20:25, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

There's another at [18]. It's worth searching for 'tiger cubs' as well as 'tiger kittens'. — Matt Eason ^{(Talk &#149; Contribs)} 20:31, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Using a Scalpel

When making precise cuts in surgery, does the surgeon rest his/her palm on the patients body to stabilize the hand, much like writing with a pencil? Or must the only point of contact be the scalpel? Acceptable 22:26, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

The answer will depend very much on the site of the incision. For example cutting the abdominal skin would not necessarily require the support of the hand on the abdomen because the incision accuracy would only need a tolerance of, say, 2 millimetres. However making an incision on the face, for example near the eye or micro-surgery of nerves, will need fautless precision and thus the surgeon will need to support and steady his hand. Different surgeons employ slightly different methods for achieving accuracy of incision, but the majority use the 'pencil' style method of holding the scalpel, the next most common method being holding the scalpel like a cutlery knife with the end of the handle in the palm of the hand. I do not recommend sugery at home! Richard Avery 08:00, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

FIND A PLACE

I am trying to find Hastle Bach, Pembrokeshire, Wales. Any body know if it ever existed

Tried a number of gazetteers [19], [20], [21], [22], [23], [24], [25], but no luck, sorry.—eric 23:10, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Me, too. It ain't there now, I'm pretty sure, because it isn't in the 1985 Ordnance Survey Motoring Atlas. The closest I could come was Little Newcastle, which used to be called "Casnewydd-bach", "bach" being "little". "Hastle" didn't appear as a word or as an affix in the Welsh dictionary I used or in the glossary of placename elements. There is no placename like "Hastle" in Pembrokeshire, either, that there might have been a "Lesser" one of. I gave it my best shot without leaving the room. --Milkbreath 23:39, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Google Maps shows a 'Castle Bach' in Llandrindod Wells, Powys, Wales. But no 'Hastle Bach'. SteveBaker 04:31, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

The Worst Speller and Naming Your Award Stars

Over the years I have seen several articles that have had misspelled words and gramatical errors, and I now see that this encyclopedia has a group to fix the problem and even an award for those who correct spelling and grammar errors. That revelation leads me to ask a couple of questions: First, does anyone know who the worst speller on Wikipedia is?

Secondly, has anyone considered renaming the spelling and grammar correction star in honor of the worst speller here? In the case of RickK, I gather the antivadal star was named in his honor for his role in preventing/reverting vandalism (at least, that is what I assume); I presume therefore other stars could in theory be named in honor of others who have outstanding or otherwise notabale traits. How about it? Anyone know the answer(s) to these questions?

There was a guy who not only had bad spelling, he didn't think punctuation rules were worth following either, especially the one about putting a space after a comma or period. But he is long gone, thankfully, and I don't remember his name. The worst spellers are usually people from other language projects who have vastly overestimated their grasp of English. Adam Bishop 00:53, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

If you Google Wikipedia for "full of spelling" you'll find no shortage of candidates. Makes amusing reading for a while (but after you've read a few it all becomes rather depressing).--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:35, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

The worst spellers are everyone who speaks the "other" variant of English. ;-)

Atlant 12:13, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

GRADUATION N' CAREER

HI,I GRADUATED FROM HIGH SCHOOL AND I'D LIKE TO KNOW HOW MUCH MONEY DOES A C.I.A AGENT GETS PAID?THANXX PS:ALSO MY SISTER GRADUATED FROM HIGH SCHOOL SO DOES SOMEONE KNOW HOW MUCH MONEY A flight attendant GETS PAID?THANX AGAIN

Couldn't find an answer to the CIA question, but according to here: "...the pay ranges from about $13.00-$40.00 per flight hour or more. Most airlines have in place a monthly guarantee which ranges between 65-80 flight hours. The Flight Attendant is paid the guarantee whether he/she actually works those hours or not. Most new hire flight attendants will earn between $16,000-23,000 and may eventually earn up to $75,000 per year. Actual pay per hour is dependent upon years of service and any special qualifications the Flight Attendant may have on board the aircraft. Flight Attendants also receive a special per diem for each hour spent away from home. This per diem is in place to cover meals and other expenses. With each year of service comes an increase in salary." -Wooty [Woot?] [Spam! Spam! Wonderful spam!] 01:12, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Note that a career in the CIA might mean you are expected to find things. I suggest you practice by first finding your capslock key. This site states "the CIA is a government agency; as such, the salaries are less than stellar. The exact salaries are kept top-secret (as is everything to do with the CIA's budget), but don't ever expect to make six figures - something between $30,000 - $60,000 is a lot more realistic. " "Your starting salary ranges from $34,000-52,000 depending on experience. " --Ybbor^Talk 01:20, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Is Matrixism real?

I keep seeing signs for this religion all over the place. But is Matrixism a real religion or not? 206.188.56.88 23:42, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

We used to have an article for Matrixism though it was deleted due to being a neologism as I recall. You can check the logs if you like... Anyway, it's real in that there are probably a few people who believe in it. It's not "real" in that no governmental state acknowledges it as a legitimate religion. Dismas|^(talk) 00:40, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

It is also interesting that (presumably) one anonymous editor keeps asking question about Matrixism on the Ref Desks. I note there has been numerous edits to the article, its talk page and its deletion discussions promoting its notability from 206.188.56.88. Please be aware that mentioning Matrixism here to generate more Ghits is a form of WP:SPAM. If you have a genuine question, then ask away, but we have pretty much exhausted all there is to say about this subject. Rockpocket 02:11, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Mentioning anything on Wikipedia in order to get Google to boost the rating of the site it links to is pointless because Google no longer counts outgoing links from Wikipedia in measuring the relevence of a site. I believe Yahoo agreed to do the same thing. SteveBaker 13:37, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Pre-med Physics

In North America, is the science course Physics mandatory for all pre-medical and medical students? Acceptable 23:54, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Didn't you just ask this, possibly on another reference desk?

Atlant 12:14, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Nope.Acceptable 01:39, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

October 10

Spanish Book

Does anyone know where I could get a summary of the book "Patricia va a California"? The author is Blaine Ray. I am currently unable to go to many websites other than Wikipedia, so If you could post the actual summary here, that would be "fantastico!" ^_^ Thanks! --PolarWolf ( grrr... ) 00:23, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Patricia is a 15-year-old girl from Guatemala. She goes to California as an exchange student. She lives with a caring American family but encounters prejudice at school, especially from a girl named Debbie. By chance, Patricia finds Debbie in a dangerous situation. She acts quickly and decisively to rescue her. The two girls become fast friends, and eventually Debbie goes to Guatemala to visit Patricia and her family.

And if you are able to access this site you can get more details. http://users.rcn.com/jgoldste/pvac.htm Richard Avery 07:48, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you so much! I'm able to go to other websites now, so this is great. :) --PolarWolf ( grrr... ) 15:50, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Is there a specific wikipedia article on clockwork automata?

Like wind up clocks, but other than something that keeps time.

See Clockwork and Wind-up for starters. The latter is just a disambiguation page, so it has non-relevant content. Perhaps if you have some free time you can expand it. dr.ef.tymac 01:50, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Automaton is a pretty good article. SteveBaker 04:21, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

You might enjoy our all-too-brief article about the Musée Mécanique.

Atlant 12:15, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Or check out the video for the song "Coin-Operated Boy"  :) Corvus cornix 20:30, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

old people living in freshman dorms

Since lots of older people are going to college now, could they live in freshman dorms? I mean like 60 year olds living with all the 18 year olds.

Quite often those people live in the community that the college is in and therefore already have their own homes/apartments/etc. Dismas|^(talk) 02:07, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

It would certainly vary from campus to campus, but the answer is probably "yes" at most places. I'd imagine that (1) most campuses aren't averse to pulling in housing fees and (2) there's probably some sort of no-age-discrimination clause that applies. — Lomn 02:13, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I seem to remember a story about an elderly woman who decided in her 70s or 80s to do the whole college thing at Kent State University a few years back, including living on campus. She eventually graduated. -- Mwalcoff 03:22, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I lived in residence with older people, although not as old as 60. But that was an upper year/graduate student residence. Adam Bishop 07:19, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Pomona College doesn't have freshman dorms, but rather mixed-class dorms (although Sophomores tend to end up in the least desirable dorm rooms since Frosh get distributed around the dorms into reserved-for-frosh rooms while juniors and seniors get first pick of rooms). There was a senior citizen student there in the late 80s who was living in the dorms, so yes, it can and has happened. Donald Hosek 19:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

A variation on this: in the Netherlands I know of only one university that has a campus. Instead, we normally have student houses. I live in one and I'm the oldest inhabitant at 44. So not that 'bad'. :) There are some more older inhabitants and the reason is that the alternatives are a whole lot more expensive, so people don't move until they have a steady well paid job. Btw, even if I had one, I might still not move because I like to live together with a bunch of educated people. (Also, I've got one of the best views one can hope for in Amsterdam, at an intersection of canals and a view of two of the most beautiful towers in the city.) DirkvdM 18:08, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Don't swear

If, in the USA, you refuse to swear on the bible in a court of law, what is the procedure? Keria 05:27, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I can't (...wait for it...) swear to this, but I think in almost any jurisdiction you are permitted to "affirm" rather than "swear", and you don't have to use any holy book. Swearing on a Christian bible is a very strange idea on its face, given that Jesus did explicitly forbid it; it's right there in red letters. --Trovatore 06:02, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

And AFAIA, the "procedure" is you tell the usher you wish to affirm rather than swear an oath. In some places, they'll ask you which you want to do as a matter of course; in others, a particular oath will be assumed unless you request otherwise. FiggyBee 08:12, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Also, so I hear, the judge will sometimes advise the jury that the affirmation is no less binding than the oath and that they must not allow the witness's refusal of a religious oath to prejudice them towards the testimony.--Rallette 09:39, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

You might find ACLU of N.C. & Syidah Matteen v. State of North Carolina interesting. Jon513 11:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Just to be pedantic, since this question is USA-specific, the term in US courts is bailiff, not usher.  :) Corvus cornix 20:31, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

And then there was the "unorthodox" procedure from Fried Green Tomatoes at the Whistle Stop Cafe/Fried Green Tomatoes (film)...

Atlant 12:18, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

If I recall correctly, refusal to swear on a Bible was used as a basis for disallowing the testimony of nonChristians (such as Chinese immigrants) in the U.S in the 1800's. The later allowance of "affirm" was an accomodation to non-Christian witnesses. Edison 04:11, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

As to your first sentence, could be; a lot of things have happened in this country. But as to the second sentence, no, I really don't think so. The phrase "oath or affirmation" appears in the original U.S. Constitution three times. I think it was at least partly an accommodation for Christian witnesses who took one of Jesus's lesser-known, but more explicit, commandments seriously. It's really kind of bizarre, when you think about it, that people "swear to tell the truth" with their hand on a book containing the following passage:

Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

--Trovatore 06:18, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Football

I know this may not realy b what u wikipedia people r used 2 but i have a bet with people at my work who believe they know alot more about football than i do so i have challenged the in a fantacy league, would any of you be able to suggest player who would b good adisions to my team?? plz i ned 2 win this!! thanx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.144.161.223 (talk) 12:32, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

You feel that you are more knowledgable than your co-workers when it comes to football but you're looking to us for advice on who you should pick? Does the player we choose have to display as much good sportsmanship as you are? Dismas|^(talk) 13:38, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Aside from that (because all's fair in fantasy football and showing up one's co-workers), which football? Given the timing, I'm guessing the gridiron variety, in which case the season has started and you're not drafting a clean slate. It's utterly impossible to give specific advice since we don't know the state of your league, but consider searching the web at large and/or sports sites for fantasy advice. There's a big market for this sort of thing. — Lomn 14:50, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

The OP's IP address is in Watford, England, so it's a probable hundred to one on that he's asking us about soccer players. For a fantasy team, the contenders include Pelé, Gerd Müller, Franz Beckenbauer, Johan Cruijff, Alfredo di Stefano, Diego Maradona, Garrincha, George Best, Michel Platini, Eusébio, Ferenc Puskás, Bobby Charlton and Zinedine Zidane. In goal, I'd like to see Lev Yashin, but maybe you could try Gordon Banks, Dino Zoff or Peter Schmeichel. Xn4 01:11, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think he means a all time greatest team, but a fantasy football league in which you choose 11 or so premiership players and get points depending on how they perform each week for their clubs. Umm I tend to lose these things despite being a keen fan, but my advice is get two or three expensive players, these will be the best. Cristiano Ronaldo tends to score a lot of points. Then fill up the team with cheaper players. Look for players who are playing against the lower down teams, or who may be playing twice in a week. Look at the statistics available already from the league you are in, and watch out for injuries. Lots of time to decide though, because it's internationals this week, so no fixtures. Cyta 10:27, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Defenders who take penalties are always a good option. And if you can't afford a goalkeeper from a good defensive team (NB not the same as a good goalkeeper!) pay the minimum for a goalkeeper that never plays. --Dweller 13:01, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Munchausen by Proxy

This is not a medical question, it's a historical one. I'm curious to see if there have been any documented cases of Munchausen by Proxy in which the feigned illness in the child was a mental one rather than a physical one - it seems that'd be easier to fake, wouldn't it, by exaggerating symptoms? Kuronue | Talk 14:13, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

(As munchausen syndrome is a psychiatric illness, then feigning a psychiatric illness would be a case of munchausen syndrome - and so it would be a real illness - a sort of contradiction...)

(clarify : Also Munchausen by Proxy involves faking or causing illnesses in others in order to bring attention to oneself ("by proxy") - I wonder how one could give someone else a psychiatric illness - maybe by giving pyschoactive drugs or something?)

Did you mean something like a parent/guardian claiming their child is 'autistic' or whatever the latest fashionable middle class disease is - as an example - something like that???87.102.79.56 15:34, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

can I add a mild objection to describing autism as a 'fashionable middle class disease'? Autism is a disorder and the autistic spectrum is vast, ranging from problems with social communication right through to the child who is locked into their own world - and many, many other things besides. (That absent-minded uncle of yours who hides away in his study might have Asperger's Syndrome - that's on the autistic spectrum). thanks 83.104.131.135 08:20, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

more information on cornerstone

Greetings,

I was reading the other day about the chief cornerstone spoken of in the Bible. So I checked out your site and was wondering if you had any info about this stone being the cap-stone of the prymids of Egypt. In reading the description of the stone in the Scriptures and the description of this cap-stone, it seems to me they are very simuliar. Just wanted your view and any further information that you might have on the matter.

Thank-you, John Hill Thomasville, NC —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.177.23.140 (talk) 17:32, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

(e-mail removed for spam reasons)

There are a couple of examples in the bible - which one?

Behold, I lay in Zion a chief cornerstone, elect, precious, and he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame... The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone." (1 Peter 2:4-8)

Built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20)

from http://www.mbay.net/~jmejia/chapt15.htm

I don't see a major connection as yet87.102.79.56 18:03, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Although chief might connote top, the foundation context would tend to mitigate against associating chief cornerstones with cap-stones. I found an article with this quote, which may help: "How was the tabernacle kept at the proper form and angles? Special "corner" clips or sockets maintained right angles. The temple was built using this same architecture means by working from the first stone being set properly and the rest of the building being established from that point. The NT uses this analogy of the temple reerring to the cornerstone. If the chief cornerstone was misplaced or in error, the whole building as out square and unstable" --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:07, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Our article on cornerstone mentions the Biblical references and supports the idea of a foundation stone rather than a capstone. Foundation stone is certainly the meaning that I have always associated with these passages. Gandalf61 09:26, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

SNES PAL to NTSC Converter

What was the latest PAL to NTSC converter released by any company for the SNES and thus had the ability to play the greatest amount of Japanese/American imports. Furthermore are there any converters that can actually play " ALL " games.?

Ta. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.119.56 (talk) 19:27, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

PAL and NTSC are video formats. I suspect you're actually asking about SNES modchips that allow you to skirt Regional lockouts. Personally, I'd look for an emulator rather than a hardware solution. Keep in mind that Wikipedia can't really give you advice regarding illegal activities. --Mdwyer 21:00, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I`m not asking about modchips or anything illicit whatsoever. There exists devices, ( search ebay if your unsure ) or even google it, that allow you to play the American or Japanese SNES games on the European console. They are not illegal whatsoever. You place the converter in the console along with any PAL (UK version) game and then the NTSC( or American.Japanese) game and it can play it. Again see previous question. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.119.56 (talk) 21:39, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Wisdom teeth...

The dentist said recently that I'll need my wisdom teeth pulled soon, which annoyed me quite a bit. I was wondering though, is it better to get all four pulled at once, or one at a time (one fourth the dose of whatever it is they inject my gums with...), or does it not matter? Thanks in advance! Pessimistic Nonconformist? 20:05, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

If it was me, I'd definitely get them all at once. The prep takes time, and so does the recovery; the whole thing is sufficiently unpleasant that dragging it out to cover four completely separate occasions would be terrible. --Masamage ♫ 20:26, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the above post -- do it all at once and get it over and done with. That's what I did. (Joseph A. Spadaro 22:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC))

Agreed. All at once. Just go in, get them pulled, get some good drugs so you don't care about the pain for a few days, sit on the couch and eat ice cream, and watch way too much day time television. Plan on having it done on a Friday or sometime when you know that you'll miss a limited amount of work like a three day governmental holiday weekend. Dismas|^(talk) 22:11, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Unless you hate your job. :D --Masamage ♫ 22:12, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Why on earth would anyone want it done at a weekend? Surely better to have it done Monday morning! DuncanHill 22:52, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that would depend on whether your company lets you take sickleave for such things. I might rather have a bad weekend than burn vacation time. These days a lot of companies don't make any distinction between the two anyway, which is great if you don't get sick (because these companies usually give you a bit more of this combined vacation/sick time than you get in pure vacation time from companies that distinguish), but tends to incentivize presenteeism. --Trovatore 23:08, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually I'm still in high-school, but homeschooled, so maybe my mom will let me take a couple days off. :) Okay, thanks for the overwhelmingly-one-sided responses, I'll have them all pulled in one day (wish me luck!). · A Pessimistic Nonconformist? • Talk 23:14, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

It's not that bad. My cheeks were really swollen (I had mine out when I was 14), but that's about it. --_{King of the Wontons} | _{lol wut?} | _{Oh noes! Vandals!} 00:55, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

When I got 4 teeth pulled out for my braces (not wisdoms, 5th from the front), I chose to have one side of my mouth done at a time, with 2 weeks in between. It still sucked, but if I got them all done at once, I would have been twice the drooling mess I was. --Candy-Panda 01:46, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure they need to be removed? You might want to read our article on wisdom teeth, particularly the bit about the controversy. Also check with your dentist how long it will take to have all four removed at the same time. My dentist took an hour to remove just one of mine (though admittedly there were complications).--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:12, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Mine weren't breaking through yet, and they took all 4 at once, I don't really remember any problems with that, but they did put me entirely under for the procedure(using an IV), I think it was about 2 hours. I'll vouch for it not being that bad really (recovery I mean). Dureo 10:28, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Shantavira: Yes, they have to be removed, since they're pushing my other teeth forward, and they aren't even out yet. Pessimistic Nonconformist? 12:35, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I do have one other piece of advice for you. Under no circumstances allow your parents or whoever does the cooking at your house to serve peas for as long as your mouth is healing. When I had mine out, my mother served peas with dinner a few days after the extraction. One fell in the hole in my gums and it took me probably 20 minutes getting it out with a toothpick. Dismas|^(talk) 12:41, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

He, I'll remember that. :) Pessimistic Nonconformist? 12:53, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Might I suggest mushy peas? DuncanHill 12:55, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

In regards to the peas: when my lower two were removed I was given some weird little plunger device thingamabob, which shot out a stream of water that was used to remove food detritus that had accumulated in the holes where my teeth used to be; some pretty gross stuff would come out when I used it. Also, I found using Ibuprofen, or some other over the counter drug, as my pain management drug worked fine, allowing me to "save" the prescription drug my dentist prescribed to me. 38.112.225.84 13:50, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Safety seal equality

How come my orange juice, my dog's arthritis medicine, and my power steering fluid need those paper/foil safety seals but my dishwashing soap does not? For what it's worth, I'm in the States. Dismas|^(talk) 22:38, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

You're unlikely to be poisoned by the soap, since it is rinsed away. The power steering fluid almost certainly has a seal for reasons distinct from the food products - less to do with possible adulteration and more to do with making a good seal, I'd expect. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:41, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the sealed products would otherwise 'spoil' more quickly? Alternatively a lot of products now have a 'child safe' seal that makes it difficult (or at least less easy) for children to get into containers/products that could be harmful to them. It could also be that certain products are more prone to leaking and so need more seals than others, or that packaging firm X has an automated sealer machine, but firm Y don't and so their produce doesn't come sealed - as it is unlikely to be a legal requirement to seal things such as OJ it would come down to company preference. Certainly I find that sometimes our '4 pinters' in the Uk come with a variety of good and bad seals for the lid. Some are incredible hard to remove in one fell swoop, others much easier. This is almost certainly a difference caused by different packaging/bottling machinery installed at different plants. ny156uk 23:06, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

The seal on the power steering fluid (and on other things like brake fluid) is to keep atmospheric water vapor from contaminating the fluid. The arthritis medicine is probably also sealed for that reason. The orange juice seal is probably because the juice has been pasteurized, and the seal keeps bacteria out, giving it a longer shelf life. --Carnildo 23:51, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

In 1982 a truly evil person harmed or killed people by putting poison in Tylenol capsules. [Tamper-evident]] seals on products became common after that, especially for packages anyone culd adulterate, then place on a store shelf. Many years earlier, foil seals were added to the rubber tops of injectable drugs to prevent harmful substances being added, and to prevent narcotics being removed and replaced by inert liquid. In other areas of comerce, like gas stations, a foil seal on a product like a gas additive prevents the merchant from refilling a gas additive bottle with gas and seling it for more money. Edison 04:06, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I am old enough to remember the Tylenol scare. In fact, I grew up less than 20 miles from most, if not all, the victims. And I can see why seals on automotive products would benefit the products by keeping water vapor out. But it just seems to me that something could be put into the soap and end up on my silverware and dishes. Therefore, maybe there should be seals on this as well. Dismas|^(talk) 11:17, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

The safety seals were never to actually make you safer. Only to make you feel safer. It was a marketing technique to make Tylenol appear to be reacting to the crisis. Stoping someone from tampering with all the food products you consume is virtually impossible. Imagine a hypodermic needle going through a plastic bag of chips. You'd never notice the hole. Or think of the whole produce section in the supermarket. If it were a real danger people would be dropping dead on a regular basis. Better to spend your effort on making your automobile safer. 69.95.50.15 13:09, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

What's a "paper/foil safety seal"? --Dweller 12:56, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Yvonne

I recently came across an obituary for a woman named YuVawn. I am presuming this is a variant spelling of the name Yvonne. A google search for YuVawn turned up only 38 hits, all of which were genealogical or obituary entries. Any help you can provide would be appreciated.64.179.37.3 00:32, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I think you're probably right. Help with what, exactly? I'm unclear on what the question is. --Masamage ♫ 02:14, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

My guess is that the OP is after the origin of the variation, and possibly the reason (ethnicity/language of origin). Not that I know what that might be. Does the family name give you a clue to their ethnic background (if you can give it)? Steewi 03:03, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I see. In that case it could be literally anything. The stereotype is that unusual spellings of Western names often belong to people of African descent, but that's just a stereotype. I know a little white girl named Raechyl, and my own middle name is completely made up. Lots of people could have invented the spelling YuVawn independently of each other. I also get hits for Yavonne, Yvon, Yivon, Yevone, Yuvon, etc. etc. --Masamage ♫ 07:26, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Water and Chewing Gum

Why does drinking water while chewing gum make the gum harder (or at least feel harder to chew)? 72.189.138.226 02:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't have any sources but my bet is that it's due to the rapid cooling of the gum. Dismas|^(talk) 02:56, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

inverted commas/quotation marks

220.238.41.51 05:36, 11 October 2007 (UTC)–I have a problem with quotation marks not appearing when the appropriate key is hit. All other keys work fine. I hit shift+ " but the " does not appear until I hit the space bar or the next letter. This must be a software problem because I have tried three different keyboards and it happens on each one. Not disastrous but frustrating.05:36, 11 October 2007 (UTC)220.238.41.51

You seem to have answered your own question. If it's a software problem, then reconfigure or change the software. Or are you saying that this happens no matter what software you're using? Try it in a console or shell or at the command prompt -- or whatever your particular OS calls the straightforward typing of a command in text mode, free of any GUI. -- Hoary 07:12, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

You should probably ask this one on the computer ref desk (there is a link at the top-right of this page). Tell them what software you are using (or does it happen in all software?). SteveBaker 13:22, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Brisbane City Council Budgets

Hi there

What is Brisbane City Council's (australia) annual fuel and maintenance budget for public transport vehicles, including buses ferries etc? Do you know how this roughly breaks down?

Or any idea where this information is easily available?

Thank you

Brad —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.101.190.74 (talk) 06:37, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

For very specific information such as this, it's probably simplest to contact Brisbane Council directly via the "contact us" link on their website.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:23, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Do eggs keep out of their shells?

Can I take the time Sunday to break and separate the egg whites from, say, 30 eggs, putting them into a bottle to pour from throughout the week, speeding up my morning routine and reducing the hassle/mess? How long would egg whites keep outside of their shells? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.0.158.222 (talk) 09:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

In the fridge, in a clean vessel they will last a week. Campers used to break eggs into a jar to save weight and breakages. Why not buy dried egg white powder and reconstitute ? Paul

Is it cheaper? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.0.158.222 (talk) 12:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Just out of interest, why do you need to seperate the whites? Do you have meringue for breakfast? DuncanHill 12:43, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Some people only eat egg whites and not the yolks, to cut down on fat (they are basically water and a few proteins). Personally I find it a bit gross of an idea, but hey I don't eat it ;-) --24.147.86.187 13:18, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

no, but that's a good idea! Actually, I want to cut down on cholesterol. 8 eggs a day is huge in cholesterol, but I hear the whites have none.

Breathing in small flies

If one were to, for example, cycle through a dense forest or other ecological habitat in which a large population of small flies resided, and were to open their mouth wide and breath normally, would at some point the accumulation of insects entering their mouth and lungs render them dead? Weasly windom price 12:47, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

No. See cough. --Sean 13:53, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

different?

what is the difference between the USMC SAMR and the DMR? are there any? --MKnight9989 13:01, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Effective range, muzzle velocity, caliber, length, etc. What specifically were you looking for? There seem to be a number of differences. See U.S. Marine Corps Designated Marksman Rifle and U.S. Marine Corps Squad Advanced Marksman Rifle. Dismas|^(talk) 13:21, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I was under the impression that the DMR could be a M14DMR or a M16A4DMR. --MKnight9989 13:47, 11 October 2007 (UTC)