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Explanation of Request for Comment on WP:WEIGHT of Russian influence on the 2016 United States presidential election in multiple articles and templates

Below is a Request for Comment I am posting here because it deals with multiple articles and templates. The issue is WP:Weight. This is an attempt to centralize discussion and drive at an overall consensus that can guide content.

In particular, this is to get feedback and gain overall consensus on what should be the WP:Weight of information in Russian influence on the 2016 United States presidential election throughout various articles that relate to United States presidential election, 2016. If Wikipedia could come to a general consensus, it will guide content inputs into several articles.

To state my position clearly, I am of the belief that Russian interference or the belief of Russian interference by US intelligence in the 2016 election is one the most historically significant aspects of the election. That being said, I am of the belief that it should be mentioned in the opening of articles that also reference the election. For example, in the current article United States presidential election, 2016 it currently reads:

Trump is projected to win the Electoral College by 74 votes, with 30 states and Maine's 2nd congressional district going to him, and 20 states and the District of Columbia going to Clinton. Clinton received about 2.8 million more votes nationwide (2.1% of the total cast). This is the fifth time after the 1824, 1876, 1888, and 2000 elections that the president-elect lost the popular vote. Third-party candidates Gary Johnson (Libertarian) and Jill Stein (Greens) scored respectively 3.3% and 1.1% of the national vote.

It is my belief that Wikipedia should add a sentence similar to:

Seventeen U.S. intelligence agencies represented by the United States Department of Homeland Security and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence concluded Russia interfered in the 2016 United States presidential election and the Central Intelligence Agency concluded Russia influenced the election to help elect Donald Trump as President of the United States.

I believe something similar should be added to the opening of several articles, including Donald Trump. In my opinion, a foreign government's influence in another nation's election an essential fact to know in any article that relates strongly to that election. As a general rule, if another article mentions the 2016 election of Trump in its lede, it should also mention the CIA conclusions that Russia attempted influence the election in favor of Trump. I also believe it should be in several templates, such as Template:US 2016 presidential elections series and Template:Trump presidency, discussion currently here and here respectively.

Note: There are multiple ongoing discussions that somewhat relate to the question below. Many of the same editors are involved in each. I think it is important to come to an overall guiding consensus on this so it can guide inputs into multiple articles and templates. That said, I will link to this discussion on Russian influence on the 2016 United States presidential election, Donald Trump, and United States presidential election, 2016. I believe most editors that are currently involved will see it and post here. However, I think it is also important to get uninvolved editors to give their opinion.Casprings (talk) 01:46, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Request for Comment

1. Should Wikipedia generally accept that in articles that are strongly related to the 2016 US presidential election and mention the election in the lede, it should also contain information regarding Russian influence on the 2016 United States presidential election?

2. Should the article Russian influence on the 2016 United States presidential election be included in templates related to the US's 2016 election? Casprings (talk) 01:40, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Survey

• Support at least one sentence in WP:LEAD of related articles, per WP:WEIGHT in thousands of reliable sources. Support inclusion in the templates, per same coverage in those thousands of sources in multiple languages. Sagecandor (talk) 02:01, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose for forcing a Russian influence article plug-in sentence into the leads of related articles; as the proper place is the "See also" section. As for templates, sure. ^Falling_Gravity 02:33, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
• Support some inclusion of this info in the lede of 2016 Presidential election related articles. If this story changes later, the amount in the ledes can also change later. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 03:30, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. By "interfere" they mean someone leaked emails showing the DNC's very real collusion with the media to manipulate public opinion in favor of its candidate, so we might as well blame Russia. A vague reference to Russian "interference" or "influence" conceals more than it reveals.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 05:14, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose both – No need to "advertise" this article everywhere. Just mention the allegations and link to it where appropriate, to be discussed on a case by case basis. The story is too recent and shaky at this point to consider it a central part of the 2016 election, which has seen a lot of controversies already… — JFG ^talk 06:50, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose both - There is a strong case to be made for the inclusion of this issue in templates; the place for that discussion, however, is on the template's talk page. There is no deadline on Wikipedia, and Wikipedia is not a newspaper. The proposed articles to be affected are high visibility and are deserving of our individual attention. If this issue is of such historic importance that it must be thrust to the forefront of every article related to it, it deserves our individual attention on an article-by-article basis, without handling it with a shotgun scatter shot one-size-fits-all hamfisted approach crafted during the heat of the moment while the issue is still very much in play. This is, in sum, a solution in search of a problem... the issue is being debated in our talk pages, and it is already receiving prominent coverage in related articles. Marteau (talk) 09:56, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose both per WP:NOTNEWS - these allegations are thus far based on anonymous persons reporting in one outlet. We can't make encyclopedia-wide changes. BlueSalix (talk) 10:09, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
• Comment - OP has admitted strong bias above and should be topic banned from political articles. --68.228.149.115 (talk) 13:27, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose both per comments above, esp. WP:NOTNEWS. And I'd happily bet a year's wages that the agency will change its mind very soon after the installation of the new director. The ultimate net effect of the (ephemeral) proposed addition would most likely be to embarrass the encyclopedia, not to help the reader. --Dervorguilla (talk) 14:11, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
• Support inclusion I think it should be in the lede, written very carefully to state that there is current bipartisan support for an investigation, and that the accuracy of the contentions of interference, that the Russians via hacking did influence the election, is a subject of debate and dispute, with no conclusion as yet arrived at as to their accuracy. Activist (talk) 13:56, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose strongly the notion that we should attempt to categorically decide what information belongs in articles of an arbitrary type. The scope of articles that could be construed as being related to the 2016 US election is potentially monstrous. This is asking for leave to push a POV, and for myriad pointless discussions on "whether this article is related to the election" as a thin guise for "does this Russian content actually belong on the article". Article content should be decided on a case-by-case basis. TimothyJosephWood 14:10, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
• I Oppose strongly', and encourage everyone to become more involved in this article Russian influence on the 2016 United States presidential election, and other, related articles. -Darouet (talk) 16:06, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose based on three fronts. First, we don't have proof, that the Russians were actually trying to influence I don't think it's clear what level of influence really occurred. To say influence occurred is not proven (that isn't to say the Russians didn't try). Second, without knowing the motivations of voters we can't say the election was influenced. I've heard at least one commentator claim that Hillary's characterization of Trump supporters as "deplorable" may have had the biggest impact beyond any basic message either side was pushing. We don't have the historical hindsight to know how this really played out and how it actually impacted the results. Third, (and this is the biggest one) as others have said, this information should be added on a case by case basis. We just shouldn't say such material should be universally added. Springee (talk) 16:18, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
• Weak oppose of the first question. These decisions are best made at each article. Support inclusion in the sidebar. Sidebars are for navigation and the article in question is very relevant to the 2016 election. - MrX 18:37, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
• Support inclusion in the US Presidential Election 2016 article (duh) and in the Trump article (a bit more borderline but at this point I think justified). Support adding the Russian influence article to the template (duh).Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:42, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose inclusion in the ledes of articles. Except for possibly the Election article, it would be grossly undue weight and a BLP violation in the lede of, say, Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton (which the nominator has specifically mentioned as being included). Such blatant POV pushing in an attempt to undermine the legitimacy of the election would be embarrassing to the encyclopedia. I will, however, support usage in the template. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 15:27, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
• Support Given that this is an accusation made by the nations security service, it seems to be more the reasonable to include it in the lead. It does not matter if it had an influence, what matters is the nation intelligence services said they tried (and may have succeeded, they certainly got the candidate they wanted).Slatersteven (talk) 15:46, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
• Support mentions in the leads of the articles said to have been influenced. Support inclusion in the template.

(Pinged by bot.) As per policy, the alleged Russian interference clearly belongs in the template on the elections, and in the leads of those articles whose subjects are said to be have been influenced. WP:NPOV means we report what the sources say, not that we decide for ourselves! (However, I can't see why it should be mentioned in every article on the election.)

I was surprised to see that the word "alleged" does not appear in the article title. There are still claims and denials flying around, and no consensus is visible.

However, the allegations are highly significant coming from the Director of National Intelligence and so on. These are not random accusations by involved parties. WP:NPOV says we should cover them and MOS:LEAD says they should be in the lead. This is a no-brainer to me. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:24, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: I could probably accept that it fits well in the lede of the election article. However, do you really think it is due weight for the main biographies of Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton? In their decades in the public eye, is the allegation of Russian interference in the 2016 election one of the most notable things about them as living people? I don't think a negative, highly contentious statement like that should be one of the first thing a person reads about the President-elect of the United States. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 00:00, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

@The Wordsmith:, yes, it should be part of the description of the election result. For any election, anywhere in the world, if we have information that it was less than free and fair, it should be mentioned. That is Democracy 101. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:53, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

So if there is some evidence (even non-public evidence!) that at least one vote was cast by a deceased person, we must henceforth say in EVERY article that mentions a particular election result, "Candidate XYZ allegedly 'won' the election, but there is evidence zombies interfered with the result"... that is the logical conclusion of your "less than" linguistic mandate. Wikipedia is supposed to reflect what the sources say, and if in six months we see some state-level election officials in the federal electric chair for treason, THEN methinks we shall have cause to say "Trump won but the KGB tampered". Not the case, given what we know right now, however. 47.222.203.135 (talk) 09:17, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose mention in article leads and the template for now. This Russian interference is so far unsubstantiated. What was it exactly? What impact did it have on the 2016 US election exactly? Did Trump win solely because of it? Have previous US elections been similarly affected? Until those questions have been answered, inserting mention of this everywhere is reckless and sensationalist (would we give accusations by Vladimir Putin that the US had interfered with a Russian election the same weight as this?). This could very easily fizzle out like the recounts did and end up amounting to nothing. Joshbunk (talk) 01:13, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
• Pretty strong oppose, to the overall treatment of this topic, as retroactively being the Most Important Thing™ of the 2016 election cycle. By contrast, although Nigel Farage was pretty active in the 2016 election, we don't wikilink to Brexit from the intro-paragraphs of every single article and template, and there is no vast and urgent push by wikipedians to have every United States politics article give a sentence about how "seventeen news agencies agree that the United Kingdom influenced the election in favor of Trump." There is also no attempt to use this fairly-impeccably sourced list to say that Tony Blair was running a conspiracy to help the United Kingdom influence the election in favor of Hillary Clinton. I have a 'personal' axe to grind, with the 2016 election cycle, which is that the pollsters massively fucked up.[1] (Twice actually, counting this.[2]) They were off by *eight percentage points* in each of the key swing-states of PA + WI + MN + NH. Pennsylvania and Wisconsin are what swung the election.[3][4] These statewide mispredictions, WAY outside the margin of error, caused super PACs to reallocate hundreds of millions of dollars,[5] and likely 'influenced' the Senate races,[6] as well as plausibly influencing the presidential outcome.[7] If the "dern KGB-funded commies" were computer-cracking the pollster data of dozens of firms to alter the swing-state figures, or if they were computer-cracking the voting-machines used in the general election, then we will soon have court convictions and executions for espionage/treason, at which point I would support inclusion of such a sentence. But weasel-worded handwavy "some agencies currently staffed by people who work for Trump's partisan opponent's former boss claim that secret evidence indicates Russia was 'influencing' the election in some unspecified manner by spreading propaganda" is pure and simple an attempt to retroactively justify what happened. Wikipedia *is* supposed to educate the readership, but until we know a LOT more, adding a sentence about vague 'interference' is far too point-of-view. Suggest asking again in six months, at which point either this will turn out to be like Lois Lerner, or it will turn out to be like Herbert Hans Haupt. Or most likely, it will turn out to be a small subsection of propaganda, right next to the oh-so-coincidentally-timed release of the infamous 2005 recording eleven years later in October 2016. (*That* was also forcibly inserted into the intro-paragraphs of every post-1932-election-related-article, usually as a pull-quote.) On a more general note, not speaking in any way about the support-voters nor to the wikipedian who opened this RfC in good faith, I do see this RfC as a small step in the wrong direction... I do *not* want to see every article on politics in the USA start to become a battleground like Israeli-Palestine conflict or the Balkan conflict topic areas, so I ask that folks please try and remember that wikipedia is aiming for eternity, not for righting great wrongs. This is a fairly important substory of the 2016 post-election news cycle, but it is not the most important thing of 2016 politics, given the data we have right now. 47.222.203.135 (talk) 08:54, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
• Each article should craft its own lead. It will be relevant to many and should be added to many. But it should be discussed at each article. Discuss adding it to the template on the template talk page. I'm not too experienced with the tradition of what gets added or not. Seems plausible. Chris vLS (talk) 15:35, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
• Strong oppose Mandating that this appear in the lede of an article is quite possibly a NPOV issue. It's better to mention it in a subsection or See Also. Editors should be able to make a lede without being mandated by a checklist of things to add into it, that may or may not appear as NPOV. _{Adotchar| reply here} 10:17, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - Summoned by bot. Per WP:NOTNEWS and WP:NPOV. This is far too early for any kind of mass inclusion and a waiting period is necessary. At best, I would support a mention in the see also section.
• Per Wikipedia policy, the lead is only supposed to summarize the gist of the article. Therefore, I oppose any mention of it in the lead. I am however not necessarily opposed to it being mentioned in another part of the article. Summoned by bot. Prcc27❄ (talk) 20:23, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose both. The bot sent me. It would introduce bias into the articles and fail neutral point of view. SW3 5DL (talk) 14:30, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

This is a vague pair of questions. Just how strongly related to the election are you talking about? Maybe you could provide a list or some good examples of what sort of articles and templates you think this information should be in. This somewhat comes off as POV-pushing, I'd like to see input from editors with no dog in the race before I offer an opinion. —DIY Editor (talk) 02:06, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

United States presidential election, 2016, Donald Trump, Hilary Clinton, Template:US 2016 presidential elections series. This is not meant to be WP:POV pushing. I just think an overall opinion would help guide content inclusion.Casprings (talk) 02:11, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

• Comment This eminently passes high importance in the WP:10 year test. Major reporting about demands for further investigation from the President-Elect's own party. Statements from Republicans and Democrats alike joining together in a rare show of bipartisanship over this issue. - (Examples: The Wall Street Journal Fox News The New York Times The Washington Post National Public Radio Los Angeles Times). Sagecandor (talk) 02:20, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

• Need further study and also more defined proposal on what will appear in the article. The Russian involvement is currently unclear. There are indications that Russian hacking of the RNC (Republicans) was somewhat unsuccessful except the emails of a few people. There are editorials that the Russians might have been trying to pretend they support Trump in the hopes that Hillary would be elected. Hillary would be less likely to retaliate in a fit of rage. Furthermore, Hillary reset relations with Russia when she was Secretary of State so the Russians might really want her. This saga is very unclear at the moment. Usernamen1 (talk) 03:01, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

@Usernamen1: The article title currently implies that involvement is unambiguous. I think this is a major problem per WP:POVTITLE, and should be rectified ASAP. -Darouet (talk) 16:07, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

The article title reflects reliable sources. You don't like what the reliable sources say, take it up with them. It would be POV to NOT accurately represent reliable sources.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:44, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

And oh yeah, note that "Usernamen1"'s comment basically amount to "some people say this" kind of stuff. There isn't a single source provided for the claims some of which are plausible and some pretty ridiculous. And again, sources disagree.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:47, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

• @Casprings: By your own admission, you think that Russian interference or the belief of Russian interference by US intelligence in the 2016 election is one the most historically significant aspects of the election. Some editors agree with you more or less strongly. Other editors, me included, think this story is merely hyperventilation by the Democrats and some elements of US intelligence community and military-industrial apparatus, amplified by journalists who need to feed their publications. Both points of view are interesting, and none should influence what Wikipedia reports. In this context, I disapprove of pushing this information to numerous articles, as you suggest, because this is advocacy of your POV on the story. I recommend noting the allegations and hypotheses, both sourced, and letting readers make up their mind. — JFG ^talk 06:46, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
  • @JFG: If another article is mentioned in an article's lede, it is often in one to three sentences that tell the reader the key facts of the ariticle. I think the key facts of the election are. 1. Trump won EC, Clinton got more votes. 2. US Intel believes Russia influenced the election. We disagree about the second, but I reject claims of POV pushing. and I find it divisive to claim that again. The correct forum for user conduct is not this one.Casprings (talk) 13:02, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
    • Both JFG and I worry that you may be pushing your POV here, Casprings. Also, I'm a bit troubled by your use of the loaded term "divisive" in your riposte. --Dervorguilla (talk) 14:01, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
      • You are right. My apologies to user:JFG.
    • JFG, thanks for your opinion but, again, sources tend to agree with Casprings here.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:44, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
      • I would like to see sources that give a ranking of the most important political events of 2016, which put Russian attempts to influence USA elections *above* wikileaks itself, and *above* Brexit. Nobody is arguing that the Russian-'interference' article is not important, just that it is not so important that we need to retroactively insert it everywhearrr. I don't think Casprings is pushing a POV, because they asked in an RfC. They asked in good faith, and I expect the answer they will receive is that, no in fact, the sources do NOT say that Russkie-propaganda-tactics were one of the top ten political events of 2016. Or perhaps I'm wrong, and such sources do exist; if so, please educate me by listing the ten most-reliably-sources URLs which explicitly say such things. I'm not asking for sources which say "Russia stuff is important" here because that is not the dispute, I'm asking for sources that say 'Russia stuff is way more important than Brexit in terms of worldwide political events in 2016' or the like. I know of exactly zero. 47.222.203.135 (talk) 09:07, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
• Comment I've been for inclusion in text and against inclusion in leads at this time. It appears that this story will have long legs and I'll change my mind. Just think the RfC is a bit premature. Objective3000 (talk) 18:00, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
  • I can see the "related to the US election" being a bit problematic and possibly game-able, but in the case of articles currently enummerated the info surely belongs in there (and in the lede).Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:45, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
• strong oppose as embarrassing to Wikipedia and to the United States. Speaking as someone with an information security background, the entire allegation is cringeworthy. Of course Russian hackers exist. They have always existed and they are not going to "cut it out," although I admire Obama's loyalty for saying they should. What is newsworthy is that the Democratic party dismissed the need for adequate security in this election, and now we have all this pearl-clutching over their discovery that yes, email security Is A Thing and maybe HRC should listened to the State Department's IT people. Imagine an aide sharing a laptop with Anthony Weiner, omg. Add, if you must, a selection of the reporting, but in god's name please don't endorse this in the voice of Wikipedia. Please make sure anything about this is clearly attributed. Personally, I think it is too soon to adequately assess these events. The same government that begs for recruits at information security conferences wants me to believe that "very sophisticated" hackers would leave a username and metadata in Cyrillic behind? Perhaps they are right -- we don't know what they are not making public -- and perhaps, as these agencies tell us at DEFCON, they lack technical expertise. It all smells like WMD to me, and I keep waiting for the discovery of a convenient set of ID documents. Elinruby (talk) 05:39, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Menachem Mendel Schneerson and the Crown Heights riot

The Schneerson page is fervently protected by a group of editors. I have discussed this on the talk page, and placed an item on the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. However given the past behavior of the editors Bus Stop, Debresser, and Kamel Tebaast, and their present intransigence to even provide an alternative entry, or placement, and recurrent raising of strawmen arguments, I have no optimism, zero optimism that this can be a consensus decision. The riots in 1991 occurred between two communities who rarely interacted. Most reviews of the events note how they almost do not see themselves. The events were convulsive for the history of New York City.

My goal is simple. The main reviews of the history of the time, or biographies of Schneerson, by third person authors, cite this event as important in his life, as linked to the leader of one of the two main communities involved in the riots. Again, we can focus on a single but important source: the obituary of Schneerson in the New York Times. Nearly 5-6 paragraphs of some thirty comment on this event or the repercussions. That alone should be a citable notion in the biography of the man.

My aim is that the biography link the fact that it was an accident in the motorcade of Schneerson that served as a trigger of the riots. After much discussion, I think we should also use the sources to say that Schneerson had nothing to say about the incident. Both these points have myriad sources. Given the controversial nature of the information according to editors, given the controversy that has ranged since, the most apt location is in the controversy section of Schneerson, which includes a discussion of whether the Rabbi dissuaded his followers from considering him the Messiah. I add this, because it does give some indication of why the article is so difficult to edit. I think other arguments about why the riots occurred, why this pedestrian accident led to a riot, the detailed responses of various communities, and community leaders and politicians, and Schneerson himself, can be discussed in the Crown Heights article. But the link exists, not because I want it, but because it is present in the neutral authoritative historical sources. To avoid it, is to belittle the role of an encyclopedia. Here was my suggested entry for the article (a subsection in controversies section):

• Crown Heights Riot

The Crown Heights disturbances in August 19, 1991 were set off when a car in Rabbi Schneerson's motorcade went out of control and killed a 7-year-old black child. In the days that followed, a riot erupted in the neighborhood, reflecting existing tensions between Jewish and black residents. Two men, one of them a young Lubavitch adherent, were killed during the riots. Schneerson had no public comment on the death of the child or the riots.

I am looking for guidance on how to resolve this.Rococo1700 (talk) 03:23, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

I have supported addition of this paragraph on the talkpage, but as the history of the article shows, other editors remain opposed. They claim the information about the riot is not relevant to the article about the rabbi. A previous discussion on this subject, which can now be found on the talkpage, also ends noting that a something short and balanced would be acceptable.

On the other hand, Rococo1700 is explaining WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior, posting at 4 venues at the same time (here, the talkpage, WT:JUDAISM, and WP:DR which is now closed). His posts on the talkpage are unreasonably long and passionate, on WT:JUDAISM he lies about me and on WP:DR he called this article a hagiography. All these things do little to endear himself or his point of view to me. Debresser (talk) 16:18, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

And WT:BIOG. Kendall-K1 (talk) 01:07, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

The reason I am here is because it is exasperating to argue with people like Debresser, who change the argument all the time. In the talk page, he stated: This was discussed before, at Talk:Menachem_Mendel_Schneerson/Archive_4#Didn.27t_he_run_over_somebody.3F. I stand by my opinion from then, that there is no connection to the rabbi. He tried to end the debate by saying it had been decided that there was no connection. Now he says he agrees with a paragraph. The discussion did not come to a consensus.

My point is simple: Reliable published sources make the point that this event is major event in his life. The present article does not mention it at all. The term hagiography has been used by numerous other editors in describing this article. It is tough not to use the term, when one of the controversies regarding Schneerson is whether he is the Messiah or not. Again, I successfully argued before after the dedicated efforts of many editors to remove a false statement from the article. This time, I do not have the patience with individuals who do not follow the guidelines of an encyclopedia. I am not interested in litigating legalities of the Crown Height riot in this article. The only point is that a major neutral and authoritative biography of Schneerson dedicates almost ten percent of the entry to this event. All the historical retrospectives of the event, discuss Schneerson's link to the events. This article includes zero. This is not going to be solved by mediation. It will require arbitration to keep the article encyclopedic.Rococo1700 (talk) 20:52, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

I am quite fed up with your untruths. I did say that there was agreement not to have a mention of the car accident alone, but I also added that if a paragraph would include something about the riot and the rabbi's reaction as well, then all of that together would be different story. Since that is what you wrote , I support as promised. It seems as though you are complaining about my support!

In addition, you write overly long posts, with the result that nobody wants to take part in the discussion. You include comments about editors, instead of restricting yourself to the subject at hand. You are forum shopping: this is already the fourth venue you posted at, and now you are already mentioning arbitration!? Why not call in the army? If you continue in this way, you will soon enough simply be ignored and referred to WP:DEADHORSE. Believe me, I have seen it before, and it is a perfect way to deal with annoying WP:BATTLEGROUND editors like you. So if you don't want to go that way: 1. no more lies 2. no more comments about editors and the way you think they behave or should have behaved 3. shorten your posts 4. no more forum shopping. Debresser (talk) 22:19, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

What action is User:Rococo1700 asking, anyway? At DRN it wasn't clear whether they were asking for arbitration, or blocks, or mediation. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:54, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

That is pretty obvious. He seeks support for his opinion that the paragraph he wrote is balanced and neutral and should be added to the article. Debresser (talk) 23:52, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

I am not asking for mediation. I initially had hope, but all suggestions are deleted and blocked, even if well-sourced. There has been intransigence in past, and after short discussion on talk page, there continues to be now. There is no movement. I recommend arbitration. I recommend a third party come up with a paragraph about the facts to be placed in the article, and allow outside editors including myself offer opinions. If both sides (the deletion and insertion sides) agree, we add more. If not, only the arbitration paragraph is allowed in. Following that, this article will benefit from a mechanism that prevents this task from being just deleted later. I am interested in changing the article than blocking the editors from all of Wikipedia. My fear is that they will however attempt to delete the entry. But let us begin by getting some facts in the article. I would like to write a paragraph under the heading Schneerson and the Crown Heights riot. I have provided my suggestion.Rococo1700 (talk) 03:20, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

I agree with the drift of Rococo 1700's ideas in this matter for the Schneerson article. The traffic accident involving the cortege, what may have been silence or oblique references from Schneerson after , the subsequent deaths, the absence of any compensation by the perpetrator or his employer, or dangerous driving charges, the paying out of 400,000 dollars by NYC et cetera are all noteworthy and encyclopaedia material. The "superiority of jews over all others" remarks reliably attributed to Schneerson are also noticeably absent and merit a separate section and/or mention under theology or controversy section. That both are missing is another glaring example of how a coterie of editors can commandeer an article to its detriment and the detriment of WP's credibility.--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht ^Talk/_Stalk 01:15, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Tumadoireacht, I am not going to discuss the points you brought up, not because I agree or disagree, but because my aim is to remain focused on getting at least mention of the linkage of these events to Schneerson into the article. It has been a tactic of Bus Stop, Kemal Tebaast, and Debresser to raise extraneous issues and opinions to get arguments started. I do think there is plenty of sourced and relevant material that can be added to the Crown Heights riot entry. I have focused on a paragraph with well-sourced material prominently featured in its own section in a succint retrospective biography of Schneerson, in fact his long obituary in the New York Times. The problem is that once you get them to agree on the text of the paragraph, they then argue that we can't agree where the paragraph should go, or try to hide it in the text. This information was a subsection of the Wikipedia biography from 2009 to 2013 or 2015, and a section of his obituary comprising nearly 10-20% of the biography. They now claim it is unimportant, and because we can not agree to make it a subsection or a paragraph, it can't be inserted. Ultimately I recommend focusing on a core, relevant, well sourced subsection entering into Schneerson's biography linking to Crown Heights riot. Rococo1700 (talk) 07:07, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

You have offered good reference, a chance for discussion, and a sound rationale Rococo - perhaps it is time to be bold and choose a place in the article or a new section where you believe the text belongs and insert it. Agenda hounds must then offer a clear singular rationale if they revert you. You have my consensus and support. Oh and Merry Christmas !--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht ^Talk/_Stalk 11:09, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@Tumadoireacht He was bold already. And then he was reverted. And then he was bold (disruptive) another 3 times or so, and was again reverted each time. Your advice is a little belated. Debresser (talk) 16:11, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@Debresser - perhaps it is the reverters and not Rococo who are naughty/"bold"/misguided/suffering from agenda fever. your advice is a little unseasonal.--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht ^Talk/_Stalk 17:53, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

@Rococo1700: First, after looking at the article it does seem to suffer from a significant degree of WP:PEACOCK ("renowned" etc.). I had assumed there was more of a background to the dispute regarding the riot but the talk page conversation was pretty brief. At any rate, I did not notice any compelling reasons against inclusion or clear arguments as to why this is not a "controversy" related to Schneerson. Especially since this is not a BLP, any major incidents related to the person ought to be included somewhere in the article, and if the accident and riot were significant elements of the obituary it seems like inclusion is an obvious choice. @Debresser: There also seems to be a lack of civility and respect on both sides of this. I'd like to remind everyone involved of WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL, and of course WP:NPOV. Editing articles where one's personal opinions on or attachments to the topic are significant is a bad choice and there are many other articles on wikipedia that need attention. —DIY Editor (talk) 18:42, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Agree completely. Rococo1700 is being very annoying, e.g. asking all editors again and again to "address the Rfc" on the talkpage. Which is precisely what editors are doing. The fact that all there disagree with him, does not mean they don't "address the Rfc". The comment regarding personal involvement is a bit awkward, since several editors involved are veteran editors. Speaking for myself only, I have an 8-year+ record of being able to make good edits, including edits opposite to my POV in various areas. Debresser (talk) 19:27, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

What exactly would an edit opposite to one's POV be, including something that you don't want to see included? Editing articles where such a POV exists seems problematic. —DIY Editor (talk) 19:47, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

"including something that you don't want to see included" Precisely. Yes, it is problematic. It demands strict adherence to what you know to be correct and believe in, Wikipedia policies and guidelines, over one's emotions and opinions. There is a reason Wikipedia does not restrict editing in fields of personal interest. I think there are two reasons, as a matter of fact. 1. A believe that editors are capable of good editing, even in view of personal opinions. 2. The understanding that the truth is likely to benefit from opposite points of view. Anyways, I am not reciting the credo, but when several editors, from different backgrounds, collectively disagree with a certain editor, that is IMHO more likely to be a reflection of that one editor's problems, than anything else. Debresser (talk) 21:06, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

In any case, I think the recent talkpage discussion has proven that Rococo1700 is not just annoying, but has some competence issues. Debresser (talk) 21:15, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

@Debresser - point of information- you are not stating the truth when you say all editors disagree with Rococo. As to your statement re Rococo being "annoying"-Wise folk say that no one ever annoys one - instead one takes what others offer and annoys oneself. Finally your point on competence- if Rococo is an enthusiastic but less competent editor then you ( as you maintain), and has a shorter pedigree, perhaps it behoves you, and indeed all of us to assist him/her to greater skill with the fraternal welcome which WP aspires to.--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht ^Talk/_Stalk 23:19, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Okay, not all. Thank you for your advice. I hope you understand that my first reaction was also to see how to work together with him to improve the article. That is why initially I supported his edit, with some modifications. However, his continued battleground behavior has utterly antagonized me. Unfortunately, Rococo1700 is one of those editors who is not here to contribute collectively to this project. He wants to push a point, and is not susceptible to good influence. That is why he was blocked recently. Perhaps his block will put him back on the right path, but I doubt it. Debresser (talk) 06:51, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

impeachment of Dilma Rousseff

I have many concerns about the Impeachment of Dilma Rousseff article, which definitely does not meet due weight standards and has a number of other problems, some of the latter just possibly caused by language issues. For example, she does not offer a defense but an "excuse". The talk page shows that then-active editors felt that her contention that removing her amounted to a coup did not warrant inclusion because she was impeached in accordance with the constitution. According to those editors. Help is especially needed from anyone who speaks Portugese, but even if you don't -- I can just barely read it sometimes -- there is still plenty you could do. I am annotating the talk page; so far nobody is answering.

BLP in *enormous* need of help. It's an important event so deletion a very last resort Elinruby (talk) 20:46, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

PS - so far I have not pinged anyone as the last edit by anyone else was a year ago, including the editors I quoted above. Then someone listed it on Pages in need of translation, which is how I came to it. I don't usually do Portuguese, but I needed a break from what I was working on, this article was languishing, and I followed these events in the news, somewhat. There is no current disagreement, although I took issue (today) with the comments above. I'll note on the page that I sought help here so watchers will know -- please advise whether I should go further and ping the people who where editing it last year. Mainly though, I am asking for help not a determination of bias. There is no question the article is defamatory, whether deliberately or not. Setting out the case for the prosecution is not a balanced account. I am going to go post a BLP warning on now and return to the language issues, and address the neutrality as best I can, as I come to it. But that will leave her version of events out, because there is no more than a sentence or two there now. I didn't really sign up to research this, or to solve every language problem for that matter -- I may well encounter stuff my very very iffy Portuguese can't handle. I might be able to fix the badly translated titles in the references, maybe. Elinruby (talk) 21:03, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

given that at least one editor is definitely paying attention, I pinged everyone on the talk page, with the exception of two users where I would have had to create a talk page for them.Elinruby (talk) 23:37, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Dear Elinruby, that article describes the impeachment process, following strictely that sources support, imho. If you find reliable sources that support "coup theory", expand the article, please. I apologyse my poor English, as so your Portuguese. I began a revision in your last edits, concerning some lack of "trans-title" in some refs, but I'm busy in next days. Best regards. PauloMSimoes (talk) 21:57, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you @PauloMSimoes: for your help with those titles, a technical issue which would have been daunting for me. I will also leave some comments in the text with questions that perhaps you can answer and which I suspect may be language issues. There is one in the lede already. Please do not apologize for your English, which is better than my Portugese.

The thing is, it is not a matter of proving there was a coup. Dilma Rousseff said this, not a random bystander, and therefore it is pertinent. She is an important party to the events in the article and if she disagrees with the accusations -- which she did -- then her version of events needs to be expressed. I do not see that right now, although there may be something there in the statements about blackmail, which need to be better stated, as they are confusing. Was she the one being blackmailed? Apart from this point of confusion though, we have only the statement that she denies wrongdoing or knowledge of wrongdoing, and and another than no wrongdoing on her part was found; two widely separated sentences in a fairly long article. She *did* say the proceedings amounted to a coup. This is part of her version of events, and it can totally be qualified with "according to Rousseff" if you disagree, although as I recall NPR pretty much said that the impeachment was political. But we can go there when I have found a reference for that. For right now, here on this board, my point is that this is the epitome of a story with two sides and that both need to be presented, especially since there are serious accusations of malfeasance made by people under who were investigation against someone who was cleared, or at least not proven to be involved. Since the article has sat like this for a year, the fact that you are busy for a couple of days is minor I guess, but this does need to be addressed. Elinruby (talk) 22:25, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

meanwhile, re the "coup" remark:

• theintercept.com/2016/09/23/brazils-president-michel-temer-says-rousseff-was-impeached-for-refusing-his-economic-agenda/ -- there is a portugese version of this article
• theintercept.com/2016/09/28/brazils-impeached-ex-president-dilma-rousseff-says-successor-confessed-to-the-coup/ this one also
• www.thenation.com/article/international-tribunal-declares-impeachment-of-brazils-dilma-rousseff-an-illegitimate-coup/ -- guest author
• www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-37271465 -says not a coup
• www.wsj.com/articles/brazils-dilma-rousseff-likens-ouster-bid-to-coup-detat-1471377698
• www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/11/dilma-rousseff-brazils-ex-president-says-successor-temer-took-bribes
• www.economist.com/news/americas/21696550-how-should-presidential-systems-deal-political-breakdown-when-coup-not-coup

The sources may not support the coup remark -- at the moment I agree that most express skepticism, although not all, so a real weighing for due weight would require more research than I am willing to do right now. But there are solid sources that she *said* this. Elinruby (talk) 23:32, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Agree Clearly bias against Dilma. Dr. Loo^{Talk to me}

It was not a coup, period. Dilma, as other populist leaders like Kirchner, Chávez or Maduro, simply tries to explain her misfortunes with some convenient conspiracy theory. But it is just that, it's just rethoric for the masses, Dilma does not believe it for real. The Constitution of Brazil says it clearly: "constitui crime inafiançável e imprescritível a ação de grupos armados, civis ou militares, contra a ordem constitucional e o Estado democrático" (Portuguese: "The action of armed, civilian or military groups against the constitutional order and the democratic State constitutes an unsustainable and imprescriptible crime"). Meaning, she's accusing them of committing a crime. But did she formally accused them in court? Did she provide some proof to back it up? Is she ready to have her conspiracy theory tested against the legislators' right to defense and the scrutiny of an impartial judge? No? Then there's nothing else to be said. The conspiracy theory is noteworthy enough to be mentioned, and it is, but as what it is. It can not receive equal validity, or treated as if it was a plausible and accepted theory. Cambalachero (talk) 23:47, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

I am not saying we should say, in the voice of wikipedia, that it was a coup. At all. I am saying that SHE said so and she is entitled to have her version of events reported in the article. I repeat, this is a BLP. It does seem she has discredited herself a bit by using such an emotionally-charged word, since the news outlets of the world then focused on fact-checking this rather than the validity of the claims against her, at least in many cases. And yet. It is also true that the charges against her were at best pretty technical, which one is left to induce from the language of the article, and that she was impeached by people deeply implicated by Operation Car Wash, which has yet to find evidence against her. But for now let's start here: The article reads like the case for the prosecution written in bureaucratese intended to shore up its validity. We do hear that she denies the charges, and that she offers an "excuse" for Petrobras losing money. (It occurs to me just now to wonder what the price of oil was at the time, but again, that's background.) This is almost an attack article and the only reason I have not proposed it for deletion is the amount of work that has gone into chronicling events that are definitely notable. It seems better to keep and make neutral. And again, I am not Brazilian and not involved in the article until now; I came to the article from the translation wikignome system Elinruby (talk) 02:23, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

It is impossible to debate with someone that states" It was not a coup, period...., Dilma does not believe it for real." and does not present any kind of references to support the statement. The Wiki-Rules are not based on my or your personal preference. The poor neutrality of the article will continue to exist, because the Brazilian editors clearly don't like the woman and they will never accept facts based on reality if it does not mirror image they private conceptions and points of view. Noam Chomsky has informed them, "the impeachment count as a kind of soft coup", in their opinion, is just another PT's paid propaganda source. The article is a joke. Dr. Loo^{Talk to me} 23:02, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Well see here is the thing. This is a bioography of a living person. It contains disputed defamatory material. The default is delete, people don't seem to realize this. The other side of this must be presented. If you think that the other side is mendacious then fine, you bring it, but it must be in the form of some sort of evidence. This will be a little hard for english wikipedia to process because of the Portugese but the page cannot remain as it is. That is not an option and I am not going away. Those are the rules -- unless someone can explain to me that I am wrong about this --- and so long as these are the rules they WILL be applied to this page. It theoretically should have been deleted already. I am open to treating it as a news story but even then the rule would be DUE WEIGHT no? Elinruby (talk) 08:38, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Dilma, her party and their supporters are actively engaged in spreading the coup discourse and provoking political division among the brazilian people. Legally, there was no coup and any brazilian with 3 or more working neurons knows better than to use wikipedia to spread the coup discourse. The people who support the coup discourse can easily be linked with some clear bias towards Dilma, PT and latin american socialist dictators and/or murderers such as Guevara, Castro, Chavez, Maduro and Kirchner. Noam Chomsky supports this gang because they antagonize US capitalism. Every brazilian artist who voiced support for Dilma either held first-tier offices in PT governments (Gilberto Gil), had close relatives in first-tier offices (Chico Buarque's sister was a minister) or received millions of reais (BRL) of taxpayer money to produce movies, plays and musical records through a law (Rouanet Law) that enabled PT to extensively buy political support. This was the case of the cast and producers of the movie Aquarius who cried coup in a protest in the 2016 Cannes festival. Some bias in the article is expected, and it probably will only be resolved when time has passed and the events can be analyzed with proper hindsight. This surely won't be the case before the next president-elect takes office in january 2019 nor before her political allies face trial for their numerous crimes. The bias exists, and it is unlikely to be properly fixed in the short term. Fbergo (talk) 23:41, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

I haven't counted my neurons lately but I am not Brazilian anyway so... Please explain artists in first-tier offices? I was not aware that artists in particular favored Rousseff. Why should I care about Chico Buarque? -- and ok then, Rouanet Law seems like something that should be in the article if that is the case. I am not aware of the Aquarius incidemt at Cannes. Is that in the article? Elinruby (talk) 08:51, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps we should have an article on the "soft coup" conspiracy theory. Several populist leaders (Dilma, Kirchner, Maduro, etc.) seem to love it, there should be some material for an unified article about the concept. Cambalachero (talk) 03:07, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

yeah there should. You want to try to draft one? Maybe include a primer on how to amend the constitution, isn't that how these things are done? Elinruby (talk) 08:25, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Good catch @Elinruby:, as evidenced by the reactions of @Fbergo: and @Cambalachero: the article seems to be a magnet for tendentious editing with a lack of regard for wikipedia policies and guidelines. They also seem to have no problem violating WP:FORUM in the promotion of their clear points of view and should in my opinion entirely recuse themselves from editing this article. This type of editing damages wikipedia. —DIY Editor (talk) 05:46, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Do you think that we should give equal validity to a fringe theory? Cambalachero (talk) 12:58, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

As far as I know, and I have never gotten into a fringe theory discussion so I could be wrong... However I think WP:FRINGE is intended to address ideas like chemtrails and birthers and miracles and... I dunno. It seems to me that if you are going to say someone is corrupt then you need to allow them to answer it. If you think she is lying then then thing to do -- someone feel free to jump in here -- is to say (for example) Dilma says that "so and so didn't do his evaluation report honestly and took a bribe to recommend a Petrobras expenditure" then you refute it if it is not true. As in "so and so said she used to hide the guns. She denies this but so-and-so testified to this effect at her former colleagues' trial on this date", with a reference. I can't parse what is right or wrong about a lot of this stuff, mind you. Why the big discussion about whether or not she handled guns? I do think it is material that Cunha is in jail and Temer has someone who is he ing to indict him -- I don't know how realistically but that *is* happening. Or is this just party politics the way it always is in Brazil? Anyway. The defense in an impeachment trial is highly material to the article about the article^oops impeachment.

In ten words or less the fact that you don't believe her doesn't make it a fringe theory. I saw an article that said that 60% of the legislative branch was under indictment, and they voted to impeach her, who notably remains unindicted I believe? I realize that members of her party were indicted and it's hard to believe her hands are clean especially on the matter of protecting Lulu by appointing him as he chielf of staff. Elinruby (talk) 17:24, 26 December 2016 (UTC) Contrast the article about the impeachment of Temer -- much more focused. I do not think that anyone, even Rousseff, disputes that the procedure to impeach a president was followed. When she calls this a coup she is saying that it is an illegitimate transfer of power, I think. It's possible she should not call it a coup as this would affect treaties and trade agreements, right? Brazil doesn't need to be on any sanctions lists. However, I would like someone to explain this budget manoeuver to me, since apparently both Rousseff and Temer have done this --- funded certain programs by executive edict? And the budget is a legislative function...Elinruby (talk) 17:37, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

NY Times said: "Vice President Michel Temer, who has been convicted of violating campaign finance limits and will now be under tremendous pressure to stem Brazil’s worst economic crisis in decades. Describing the effort to remove her as a coup, Ms. Rousseff, the first woman to be president of Brazil, has repeatedly rejected calls to resign, vowing to continue her fight to stay at the helm of Latin America’s largest country, the world’s fifth-most populous." 76.111.200.108 (talk) 19:17, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

The fringe theory is only the claim that the impeachment was a coup. The popular reception (people who think it was right, people who think it was wrong, and how they all reacted) is a completely different thing, and there's nothing fringe in there. Saying that the impeachment was wrong in an opinion, but saying that it was a coup is factually wrong. If it's wrong, it matters little if it is a popular misconception. If Rouseff calls it a coup but is actually using the concept as an analogy, then we should explain that analogy (note, however, that she does not "compare" it with a coup, she flat-out says it's a coup). It still wouldn't be a coup, because it does not fit the definition. Note, by the way, that legislators are not judges, and it is legitimate for them to vote for or against something (in this case, an impeachment) for mere political reasons. If a legislator thought that she was innocent, but it was in the best interest of Brazil to remove her (there is a big economic crisis on top of this), he does have the right to vote against her. Cambalachero (talk) 23:10, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

All of that may well be true. Or not, I do not know. But right now I am not trying to parse the legalities of what should or should not have taken place. The president of Brazil was impeached and removed from office. This is unquestionably notable and wikipedia should have an article. Wikipedia is supposed to be written to the neutral point of view standard. If there are mutiple points of view then they should be reflected. Fringe theory would be something more like the fairies stealing money from the Brazilian treasury.Elinruby (talk) 05:19, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Rousseff's reaction to the impeachment is intrinsically notable for her biography article. The more off-base the more notable you might even say. It deserves some mention. —DIY Editor (talk) 00:44, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

The general view in mainstream sources is that the motivation for the impeachment is political, not legal. The government's supporters do not support the impeachment, the opposition is willing to overlook worse abuses among its own members. That must be made clear in the article. TFD (talk) 01:29, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

well I seem to remember that popular sentiment was not in her favor at the time of her impeachment. But this is also true of Temer at the moment. I agree that the background should be explained but that means someone needs to enunciate it. My point at the moment is simply that surely she had something to say about this. If she called it a coup then that is one of the things that she said. The fact that she said it was a coup and people disagree, well, you say she said it, then you say that on the other hand, so and so said such and such. I never did get an answer on the consequences of calling it a coup. Wouldn't there be sanctions usually? Ambassadors recalled? I think there may have been a misuse of legislative power but it does seem that the procedures of the law were followed. There seems to be a lot of emphasis on this. But even if that is true it still matters what she said about it. Elinruby (talk) 05:19, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

to amplify the above -- some of the recent comments seem to support the coup theory. But those are still opinions until they are cited to reliable sources. So is my speculation above that there may have been misuse of legislative power, within the legal sytem perhaps. That is an opinion. It is a fact though that Dilma Rousseff said this. The people saying it was a coup need to realize that there is resistance to even quoting Rousseff saying this. Look, as I recall, she made quite a long speech at that proceeding and we should be quoting it. If she said things that were false the article can say so if there are reliable sources that support debunking, but it is still going to be true that she *said* this. Elinruby (talk) 08:13, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Chuck Blazer

The article in question is Chuck Blazer.

The following three sequential diffs are the subject of contention 1.https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chuck_Blazer&diff=756421661&oldid=742371419 2.https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chuck_Blazer&diff=756421764&oldid=756421661 3.https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chuck_Blazer&diff=756443152&oldid=756421764

Chuck Blazer has two sources of notability: soccer administration, and large scale financial crime. I believe the version of the lead I modified was too 'sanitized.' By the wording, Blazer might be an innocent Whistleblower. I changed the wording to make his criminality clear to readers early on in the article, and explain how he was coerced to be a cooperating witness. No POV commentary—his criminality is well publicized. GiantSnowman responded with a blanket reversion (no summary), while leaving a Level 2 Vandalism warning on my Talk page. I responded by opening a discussion @ Talk:Chuck Blazer. I believe my arguments there use Wikipedia policy to thoroughly justify my changes to the article. I especially put the torch to Snowman's attempt to justify his edit with WP:UNDUE, and I want to restore my edits. Tapered (talk) 04:04, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Blazer is primarily notable as a soccer administrator; his brush with the law is secondary. The current wording in the introduction has been there a ling time and is well thought-out and neutral. Your wording is NPOV and violated BLP. You seem to have some agenda in painting him as a "crook", as the wording on the talk page shows. GiantSnowman 08:33, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

I think the current version is just fine; we don't know exactly why he chose to become a cooperating witness and that's too detailed of information for the lede at any rate. We should dispassionately describe people accused and/or convicted of crimes, even if they're awful people; we should let the sources do the condemnation, not us. 08:43, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

@NorthBySouthBaranof: The description of Blazer's flip doesn't belong in the lede. However, please explain why the following sentences aren't factual. Short of his actual thoughts and emotions, we know exactly why Blazer flipped—he was confronted by law enforcers who told him he could cooperate or go to jail for the rest of his life. Chuck Blazer is a white collar criminal. Tapered (talk) 02:44, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

I agree with GiantSnowman. The proposed language in Tapered's edits is unnecessarily accusatory. The second paragraph in the lead pretty much covers Blazer's actions in the scandal.--MarshalN20 ^Talk 17:37, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

@MarshalN20: Just to tidy things up, how was (and future is) the wording of my edit "accustory?" Also, why would some variation of 'Chuck Blazer is a white collar criminal not be appropriate for the lede? Tapered (talk) 02:53, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

The lede as of this minute is excellent. Chuck Blazers notability, to the majority of the world's population not versed in the arcana of soccer organizations and administration, derives from his central role in a major scandal. May I be struck dead by lightning if it's otherwise. I'd like to know how my direct language about his guilt in financial crimes as a soccer admin is any harsher than what's on the page now. I'd like to thank NorthBySouthBaranof for his excellent work on the article. The lede is now better and more informative. I've added the story of Blazer's 'flip' to last section. If you're not sure why he flipped, please read the NY Daily News article that is Refs #3 and 19. It traces the chain of events flawlessly, starting with Warner and bin Hammam's ham-handed bribery at the Carribean Football Federation meeting. Couldn't be plainer. Tapered (talk) 02:01, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

To clarify, if you check the number of articles in reliable sources, print and online, about Chuck Blazer, I bet my life that most come in the wake of his role in the CCF/CONCACAF/FIFA scandal. Aside from his larceny, he was good for soccer, at least as an entertainment industry. To be fair to him, it may be that he should be more, or equally, notable for his efforts, but he's not. Virtue ≠ Notability. Tapered (talk) 03:23, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

1) NY Daily News is a tabloid, not a reliable source; 2) if you cannot see the difference between you suggested edits and the current version then you really shouldn't be editing at all. GiantSnowman 09:38, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Who, besides you, has declared the NYDN not to be a reliable source?

The difference—what I see is that there's a detailed account of Blazer's pleas and status as an informent, and no mention of Blazer's apprehension in the lede. I acknowledged that it's a better lede than after my edit, but mine was very much an improvement over the previous one, which completely sidestepped his notability as a convicted major criminal. Blazer flipped when he was apprehended on a city street and informed by an FBI agent and an IRS agent that they knew the crimes he'd committed, and that he could be arrested or become a cooperating informant. I've changed the word "airtight" to "incontrovertible," to avoid the near occasion of 'purple prose.'

Please stop Wiki-harassing me. It's not the behavior of a good administrator. Tapered (talk) 22:00, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

As you have been told, your choice of language is inappropriate. Why do you fail to recognise that? GiantSnowman 22:08, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

• Isnt this the guy who had an apartment for his Parrot? Is that in the lede? -edit- Actually it was his cats/pets in Trump Tower and is not mentioned in the article at all. Shame. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:50, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

@Only in death: I'll see what I can do (at some point, not just now!) to address your concerns. But I think some of the people @ Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard (New York Daily News unreliable?) might object! Tapered (talk) 06:38, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Good news! I don't expect to be struck by lightning. I didn't keep precise numbers, but the number of New York Times articles which mention Chuck Blazer before and after the crucial year of 2011 (the kickoff of the ongoing Association Football scandal), are nearly equal. The only dedicated article of note before 2011 was in 2010—a Q&A about the World Cup. 2011 saw the largest number of articles, virtually all of which concern Blazer as an administrator, but an administrator dealing with the aftermath of the CFU scandal, the primary exception being a dedicated article about his resignation from his CONCACAF offices. All articles after 2011 concern Blazer's criminal activities, and there are several dedicated articles in 2015, by far the largest concentration. The preponderance of dedicated coverage @ NYT and hence Blazer's primary notability in 2016, is for criminal activity. Please note that the NYT may have the best soccer/association football coverage in the US, that Blazer is a native of New York City, and that he lived and conducted his business in NYC. This makes it likely that he probably received more press coverage before 2011 @ the NYT than any other media outlet, and that his notability is likely even more skewed toward his criminal activities in most other media outlets in the US and elsewhere (though he probably received significant coverage outside the US around the 2022 World Cup bidding process). Tapered (talk) 07:11, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

This isn't really true, though. His primary notability is not for the criminal activity, but for revealing that criminal activity to investigators and serving as a confidential informant. The lede certainly discusses that he is also guilty of various crimes himself, but the focus of the reliable sources is on the revelations he made that led to the discovery of a much more widespread set of criminal activities. He is guilty of tax crimes, but also disclosed systematic corruption. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:50, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

@NorthBySouthBaranof: Had Blazer not been part and parcel of the criminal activities—purely a whistleblower—that could be said. But since he was both conspirator/criminal and informant, it's an artificial distinction. His notoriety derives from criminal behavior. Tapered (talk) 03:10, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

The Peruvian nitrate monopoly conspiracy

The article in question is Peruvian nitrate monopoly.

I am concerned that the creator of the article is pushing a fringe perspective that basically amounts to a conspiracy theory of the Peruvian state monopoly as the primary driver for the War of the Pacific, which was a conflict fought between Peru, Chile, and Bolivia over the control of nitrates in South America. This is the version of the article supported by the creator, Keysanger: [8]. I have edited the article to reduce the fringe perspective and with evidence that supports the mainstream view on the topic, which is that Chilean expansionism is what caused the War of the Pacific. This is my proposed version: [9].

I have attempted to discuss matters with Keysanger at Talk:Peruvian nitrate monopoly#Chilean bias - Article Needs a Rewrite, but the user obfuscates the matter by missing the point (whether purposefully or inadvertently, I don't know) and ignoring it (preferring instead to engage in edit wars).

I should clarify that my position is not against the idea that Peruvian Nitrate Company was attempting to gain an upper hand in its cartel of nitrates by purchasing a Bolivian mine. However, to manipulate the information to paint it as if Peru sought the start of war is simply ludicrous. Clearly, this exempts Chile's role in the conflict, despite the mainstream historical perspective is that Chile, which had been damaged by the Peruvian monopoly, was the country that resorted to the use of force in order to resolve the matter in its favor (much in the same way it had done during the War of the Confederation).

To sum things up, here is a straightforward quote from the historian Robert N. Burr:

Chile justified war against Peru on the basis of an alleged conspiracy to destroy Chilean nitrate operations and establish Peruvian predominance. It was claimed that since established Chilean interests and rights in the Bolivia littoral stood in the way of that scheme, Peru became secretly allied with Bolivia which it then encouraged to resist Chile's just demands. The extent of Peruvian treachery became evident when it sent to Santiago a mediator even as it prepared for war. [...] A detailed evaluation of the merits of these and other versions of war guilt in the Pacific conflagration of 1879-1883 is beyond the scope of this work. Several conclusions do present themselves, however, in connection with the circumstances and forces that affected Chile's decision to wage war and its formulation of war objectives. The most immediately obvious casus belli was the conflict of interests arising from one country's economic predominance on the soil of another. [...] Bolivians came to entertain fears concerning ultimate Chilean political domination of the littoral. But fearful, impotent, poorly governed Bolivia could neither strengthen its economic and political position in the littoral nor develop an effective policy toward Chile. For their part Chileans came to regard the coastal desert as their own in all but name. Not only were Chilean economic interests predominant, but development of the littoral was due almost exclusively to Chilean capital, labor, and technology. The spasmodic efforts of frequently corrupt local Bolivian officials to carry out the often arbitrary orders of the Altiplano were met by Chileans with angry resentment.

— Robert N. Burr, By Reason or Force (1974), pp. 138-139.

Sorry for the long quote, but I think it adequately sums up the point. Best.--MarshalN20 ^Talk 17:13, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Sati

An RfC has been initiated in the talk page of the Sati article. Neutrality is one of the core issues of contention. Please comment on the article talk page if this topic interests you. Soham321 (talk) 05:01, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Seriously spamming multiple noticeboards with this 1 day old dispute? —DIY Editor (talk) 06:24, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

DIY Editor, could we please be a little more civil here? The instructions at WP:RFC clearly endorse publicizing of an RfC in various noticeboards. As for the fact that this is only a 1 day old dispute, I am not prepared to argue with an editor who insists on inserting into an article edits which are not supported by the reference they are using. See this comment of another editor on the sati talk page endorsing my position. Soham321 (talk) 07:59, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps you're right, I just didn't see much of an exchange before calling for an RfC, which is certainly your prerogative. Joshua Jonathan has broken out your questions with detailed text of the competing versions on the talk page. —DIY Editor (talk) 08:18, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

No mention of the fact that Peermusic is accused of stealing copyrights and misleading artists and lost a related courtcase?

This article doesn't mention the controversy at all. I have listed some reliable sources on the talkpage (BBC, the Guardian). I don't really write articles, I prefer typofixing and related gnomework, can someone (preferably an experienced editor) please fix this problem? (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 07:04, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Its from 2005-2006. A basic explanation is this: Peer music signed up lots of Cubans prior to Castro. Once he came to power - as a US company it became difficult for them to pay/contact the musicians in Cuba. They made efforts to for a lengthy period of time but were unable to. The Cuban state-run organisation that handled its musicians obviously wanted a piece of the pie from the recordings of artists (who were mostly dead) sold in the 90's so they alleged theft, unfair contracts etc. The 'loss' for peer music was that they tried to claim a blanket copyright over all their back catalogue - which was rejected. The judge held some of the works would have still been in copyright held by Peer depending on when the artist died, and also that the Cuban governments allegations were basically rubbish. The article is not slanted as such, it was created in 2009 when the news of the court case was 3 years stale at that point. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:49, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

I posted the comment after watching the documentary mentioned on the talkpage. People like the composer Rosendo Ruiz Quevedo alleged that they were treated unfairly, not just the Cuban government. About 10 minutes in he gets asked: "do you think the contracts were fair?" and his response was: "no, totally unfair" (it has been translated obviously). The information seems to be relevant to the article, so I think it should be mentioned. Articles like for example O.J. Simpson contain information about stuff that happened more than 3 years ago. I wouldn't be in favor of deleting it just because the court case is "stale". (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 11:41, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

As far as I can see it was never *in* the article (I had a look through the history - if it was there, I didnt find a diff). When the article was created it was likely the editor just used the most recent information. The court case was related to Cuba, but almost every record company/publisher has a long list of people alleging unfair contracts. Its generally completely unencyclopedic. The Cuba stuff probably should be in there, but its absence does not make the article non-neutral. Its a contract dispute - par for the course for the record industry. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:36, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

I agree with most of what you wrote in this section: allegations of unfair contracts are probably usually completely unencyclopedic (most of those allegations are never mentioned in reliable sources) and contract disputes are probably par for the course for the record industry (luckily I do not work in that industry, it seems depressing!). I removed the template, the information is available on the talkpage (BBC and the Guardian are reliable sources) and if someone wants to write something about that then I will appreciate it, but I personally prefer typofixing. (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 08:27, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

@Only in death: Forgot to ping you. Are you a Warhammer 40k fan? (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 08:31, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

RfC on Nehru

An RfC has been initiated on the talk page of Jawaharlal Nehru. Please vote on it if the topic is of interest to you. Soham321 (talk) 04:46, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

RfC at Alternative Medicine

There is an RfC at Template talk:Alternative medicine sidebar concerning the use of the term pseudomedicine. Interested editors are encouraged to join the discussion. 2001:56A:75B7:9B00:441:A41B:9784:50F1 (talk) 21:17, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Verbatim Nazi propaganda on Talk pages

Revisiting this topic... (Prior discussion: permalink).

The matter of the WW2 German High Command press communiques (Wehrmachtbericht) has been controversial over the years. Most recently, it was discussed at this noticeboard (link above), as well as at Military History Talk page (Quoting from London Gazette versus Wehrmachtbericht), and various article Talk pages such as on Manstein (link) and Bach-Zalewski (link).

The material was deemed undue and was subsequently removed from articles. An editor has recently began reinserting this material on Talk pages of related articles, stating that this was being done for the purposes of archiving the transcripts: sample diff 1 and diff 2.

I don’t believe that this is needed or desirable, given that Talk pages are not storage areas for material that by consensus has been determined to be unsuitable for the main space. Given that the material represents unadulterated Nazi propaganda, it may be undue for the Talk pages either.

I would appreciate more input on this matter. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:16, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

It is my personal opinion that this is not propaganda. Claims that a single aircrew attained "ace" status on each of three single missions, and that the radio operator shot down three more aircraft after the pilot's gun jammed when he had already shot down six aircraft... such claims are material for mockery and derision, not material for propaganda.

Secondly, I do not see any indication in the edits you mention, that there is any glorification of the Nazi regime.

Some users may take the view that "archiving" such material to the talk page is inappropriate. That is the discussion to be had. MPS1992 (talk) 23:46, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

@MPS1992: Interesting... where do you see "mockery and derision"? K.e.coffman (talk) 23:50, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

That's my response to those claims. I don't consider them credible. MPS1992 (talk) 00:30, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

What solution to this problem do you seek? Should these additions be blanked from the talkpages? Should the editor adding them be banned from making further such additions? MPS1992 (talk) 00:33, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

How many deletion notices have you left on the other editor's talkpage in the last two months? MPS1992 (talk) 00:36, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

No matter how amusing they may be to some readers, the fact is inescapable: this was Nazi Party war propaganda. No amount of minimization or ridicule can change that. While I recognize the Mel Brooks approach [10] has merit, that's not what's available to the project on mainspace pages. The bigger issue, however, is that it is simply not necessary to include large quoted sections, either on article pages or on talkpages. These chunks are immaterial and do not expand understanding of the article subjects. There is no reason to have them on the article pages, and placing them on the talk pages after consensus has removed them from the article pages has the appearance of trying to perform an end-around. Delete and carry on. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 05:12, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Would propaganda from another party in the same historical conflict be handled differently? If not, specifying this material as "Nazi Party war propaganda" is meaningless, and also makes the unfair implication that the editor concerned is deliberately disseminating Nazi material. It also makes the title for this section unreasonable. MPS1992 (talk) 09:04, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Drawing the inference that I think posting Wehrmachtbericht extracts is equivalent to having an objectionable viewpoint was not my intent, and I apologize if that is how it sounded. I am, on the contrary, assuming the postings were well-meant. But I do think there is a definite historical revisionist or denialist effect (not intent) to use of that material in biographies. So there is meaning to posting it, and to objecting to it. But as I said, even if we ignore that effect, there is no reason for it. The information can easily be conveyed through text like "cited three times in the Wehrmachtbericht for exploits in the Defense of the Reich aerial campaign<ref>{{cite web |url=www.bundesarchiv.de |title=Wehrmachtbericht |date=19 April 1945 |website=BundesArchiv |publisher=Federal Republic of Germany |access-date=30 December 2016}}</ref>. An interested party can read the text for them self, if they so desire. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 13:30, 30 December 2016 (UTC).

Apparently, editor ‎Dapi89 sees the matter of transcripts differently (in addition to the original editor), as they have reverted my removal of the transcript from a Talk page:

• "Don't remove additions to the talk page unless it is vandalism".

I don't believe these transcripts belong on Talk pages, but perhaps more input is needed to convince the two editors? K.e.coffman (talk) 19:54, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Why don't you ask the editor that put them there why he did so? Did you bother to ask? Or did you, like so often, delete things you don't like first and ask questions later.

I'm going through the hundreds of articles you've deleted from Wikipedia without consensus on the (erroneous) charge they are not notable, exactly because of that kind of attitude.

You seem to forget K.e.Coffman, that you've dumped these transcripts on article talk pages as well. What's changed? Dapi89 (talk) 20:05, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

I have placed Wehrmachtbericht transcripts on Talk pages as part of the discussion, for example here:

• Wehrmachtbericht report, take 2

Please review WP:TALK#USE; "archiving" of material removed by consensus is not listed there.

Also ping MisterBee1966, as editor Dapi suggests, so that the clarify the intention behind placing the transcripts on Talk pages. K.e.coffman (talk) 20:22, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing me here. I am aware that the Wehrmachtbericht is propaganda and a delicate topic, requiring context to avoid the historical revisionist or denialist effect as stated earlier. The reason for my archiving the wording, as a working copy, was to counter historical revisionism. To make this evident to the casual reader, I placed the working copy in a hidden section (see Talk:Gerhard Raht). As Eggishorn suggested, my intension was and still is to work the information into the article, if needed countering the wrong information with reliable secondary sources, or if correct, confirm the information with other sources as well. What alternative storage area do you suggest? Moving the verbatim text to Wikiquote is probably also not in the best interest. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 20:37, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

I believe the editor MisterBee1966 is describing a classic case of WP:OR: "if needed countering the wrong information with reliable secondary sources, or if correct, confirm the information with other sources as well", as comparing and contrasting a primary source should be left to historian and researchers, not done by Wikipedia editors.

In this case, the primary source (the collected Wehrmachtbericht transcripts) is highly problematic and have been deemed by various editors to be "rubbish", "unreliable Nazi propaganda", and "crap of a primary source" that "has no place in Wikipedia" (this is from collection of discussions linked above). The view that these transcripts represent "historic testimony" is clearly in the minority.

The "archiving" for any future use is not needed to begin with, since the transcripts exist in the article history. Please also see feedback from MilHist discussion: Talk pages. K.e.coffman (talk) 22:18, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

When things are posted on a talk page and then discussed, at the conclusion of the discussion they are then archived, either manually or through a bot at regular time intervals. No need to be held and preserved on the talk page, nor just posted there when there is no current article discussion on them. And as for inclusion in an article, once something is removed by consensus then there is no reason to preserve them on a talk page specially unless, as I said above, they are posted there as part of a direct discussion on them; then once the discussion is over; the discussions are archived like every other discussion. Kierzek (talk) 18:29, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Current consensus on the Wehrmachtbericht

An good point was made over at MilHist: "cutting and pasting the transcripts into the talk page isn't good practice unless the consensus is currently being challenged" (link).

Question for @MisterBee1966: is there an intention to challenge the current consensus? K.e.coffman (talk) 16:14, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

I am not challenging the consensus at this moment. I understand that today, the community believes that the verbatim Wehrmachtbericht transcript should not be part of the Wikipedia articles, unless the wording is addressed and commented by other secondary reliable sources. This needs to be looked into on a case by case basis. However, I will follow up on the idea suggested by Nick-D. Nick suggested that the Wehrmachtbericht might be posted to Wikisource. I am currently checking into the copyright status of the Wehrmachtbericht. It has to be public domain in order for it to be hosted at Wikisource. The fact the Wehrmachtbericht is Nazi propaganda does not seem to be an issue at Wikisource, it is not a reason for exclusion at Wikisource (feedback from an administrator at Wikisource) Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 17:22, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

@MisterBee1966: Okay, great, thanks for clarifying that there's no intention to challenge the existing consensus. Since the matter appears to be settled, would you mind removing the transcripts from Talk page where they have recently been added, such as at Talk:Helmut Lent#Wehrmachtbericht references and others? K.e.coffman (talk) 20:41, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

@MisterBee1966: Please advise. K.e.coffman (talk) 16:50, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Since there's been no response, I removed the transcripts from Talk pages. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:51, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

NPOV vs undue weight

Any article included on Wikipedia, also promotes it by virtue of its existence. Is this ever a reason to exclude an article, because its promotion amounts to WP:UNDUE weight, assuming the contents conforms to WP:V and WP:RS?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Iantresman (talk • contribs)

There can be no such thing as NPOV vs. undue weight because undue weight is a part of NPOV. And the answer is no - WP:UNDUE governs content within an article, not the creation of new articles. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:52, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

I disagree, there is potential that an article - typically a spinoff article - may technically meet NPOV but fail an UNDUE aspect. One common article that can be problematic but common as a spinoff is "Criticism of X". Now while normally these are written to take both constructive and negative criticism, it would be possible for some topics to find only negative criticism in the reliable sources, and next to none coverage in counterpoint to those. Per NPOV, we can't make a false balance so the fact the criticism article would only include negative points is in line with that. But that would also arguably be against UNDUE in the sense that pullng out the excessive criticism about a topic from its main article is basically making something that starts approaching an attack article. Instead, that content should be relocated back into the main topic so that it becomes far less UNDUE in the coverage of the entire topic. Another way to look at this is that NPOV covers how we as editors should write about controversial topics, but UNDUE is more specific about how to determine what sourced opinions and statements should be included and in what ratios to present a reasonable neutral balance with the rest of the facts of the article. --MASEM (t) 23:25, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

No topic by its existence is NPOV. Take for example "Ancient astronauts," which is about the theory that aliens visited Earth in ancient times. Provided it is based on reliable secondary sources (none of which support the theory) then it is neutral, if it gives due weight to opinions expressed in reliable sources, that is, if it explains that there were no ancient astronauts even if it details the claims there were.

"Criticism of articles" are however POV nightmares, but their problem is that they fail notability, in other words, they describe a topic that does not exist in reliable sources. Take for example the article "Criticisms of socialism." While authors have written criticisms of socialism, they do not write about criticism of socialism. Some authors criticize socialism because they think it will lead to communism, others criticize it because it will not lead to communism. Some define it as state ownership of the means of production, others define it as the welfare state. If experts were to write books and articles that grouped all these criticisms together under one topic, then we could write a neutral article, explaining the different criticisms and noting the degree of support they had.

TFD (talk) 02:36, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

"Criticism of X" articles may seem to fail notability, but when these are spun-out from a larger topic under WP:SS, the notability of X generally carries into that subarticle, presuming X is a very large topic and can't be covered under WP:SIZE in a single article, . (We had this discussion around 4-5 years ago on these types of articles) It's also a natural split of such articles too for some topics. But the resulting article still must be written NPOVly, and it could be possible, as I said, that UNDUE could not be met in such a case. --MASEM (t) 04:43, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Seems to me that this is at least partially about WP:POVFORK, right? --Ronz (talk) 16:58, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

No, not a povfork, unless the main article totally leaves out all mention of criticism – by which I mean, criticial assessment – AND that criticism is so predominately one way or the other that its presence or omission makes a difference in the reader's assessment of the topic.

I am not entirely clear on Masem's position, but there are cases where the critical assessment of something can go much deeper, and with much more detail, than is appropriate in the main article. (E.g.: Theory of continental drift.) Perhaps a distinction should be made between articles that just pile up "criticism" – usually of the negative kind – against a topic, to the extent of suggesting a result or status significantly different from that of the main article, and articles that examine the criticism itself, perhaps explaining what is only summarized in the main article. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:25, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

And that's why I brought up POVFORK. Forking a subtopic places a large amount of additional weight on that subtopic. Sometimes it's deserved, sometimes not. When it is not, I think POVFORK applies. --Ronz (talk) 00:26, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Your unsupported opinion that povfork applies doesn't explain much. I am trying to sort out why povfork might, or might not, be applicable. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:11, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

I guess that related to this is, can we have a neutral article without any critical analysis? Can ideas be described neutrally (perhaps using attribution) without comment, and not violate WP:WEIGHT. What if we have minority source in support, but no mainstream sources? Is it simply a matter a framing the subject appropriately? --Iantresman (talk) 00:03, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

I'd argue that articles without historical context tend to be very poor, and critical analysis is usually a part of such context.

I'm not sure what you mean by "minority" vs "mainstream" sources, but you may be referring to topics that fall within WP:FRINGE. --Ronz (talk) 18:08, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Now that I can agree with, that giving the historical context tends to improve an article. Also, that critical analysis tends to be for the better, because it explains why a view is accepted, or not. Even where there is no opposing view, an explanation can be good. I think the key issue here relates to the idea of a "neutral" article. That implies not favoring one side or another, which assumes some kind of opposing viewpoint. Can something be "neutral" if there are no other "sides"? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:26, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Yes. Articles can be neutral even if there is only one 'side' which is based on biased sources. As that is not what 'neutral' means in NPOV. "All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." Only in death does duty end (talk) 22:38, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

This makes sense when talking about a controversial topic that does not feature a singular person or group at the center of it; eg it makes sense for topics like global warming. However, I have seen numerous cases as of late where the controversy features a person or named group at the center of it, who more than likely has a far-from-popular opinion compared to the general public which does not get shared or widely reported in RSes, leaving only the sources that critique that person or group as the only RSes that could be used. The resulting article, if we were to follow UNDUE in this manner, would thus leave that article in a state where only contrary views to the person/group are presented, making it appear as an attack article. This happens all too frequently on subjects that would fall within the alt-right, as a current example of this problem.

In such cases, UNDUE becomes problematic to resolving neutrality. We are supposed to document controversies, which in such cases should include some type of statement that describes what those individuals/groups state from their side, even if these are not reported in normally reliable sources. Opinions on the controversy at large should subsequently be inserted as within UNDUE, but we should not be using UNDUE to eliminate or negate voices from parties central to a controversy that is about them. The resulting article will still be likely weighed heavily against that person/group due to the opinions about it, but at least the fundamental facts of the controversy are laid out to help the reader understand why the controversy exists. --MASEM (t) 16:46, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

MASEM, criticism sections have the same problems as criticism articles, which turning them into articles does not address. Criticism is best inserted in the section about whatever is being criticized. So for Thomas Jefferson for example, we do not need a criticism section saying that he was criticized for owning slaves, we can put that in the section about his slaves. TFD (talk) 19:01, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

If the criticism can be narrowed down to a facet, it absolutely makes sense to write the criticism locally when talking about that facet. But not all criticism nicely compartmentalizes like this. Take Criticism of Christianity where many of the subjects covered are not representative of single facets of the main Christianity article. As such, you will often end up with a criticism section or a separate criticism article. The section is less a problem because its still on the same page as the fundamental facts that are being criticized so the neutral presentation is there. Criticism articles do need to be careful though to avoid just taking only the most popular views without providing sufficient context as to avoid the non-neutral attack article approach. --MASEM (t) 19:08, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Like I said above, a critical article on a topic ("Criticism of ...") can go much deeper than is appropriate in the main article, and perhaps Criticism of Christianity exemplfies this. Where a "Criticism of X" article is a problem, and possibly warrants exclusion, is the kind that disputes the mainstream view of a topic. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:22, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Apropos of certain points that are made in this conversation, maybe an essay I wrote many years ago might help: Wikipedia:Notability vs. prominence. I think it is helpful to look at ideas on a spectrum. The strong cut for subjects which are "not notable" is to not have articles about them. Opinions which are really obscure may be marginalized within other articles due to our WEIGHT clause. jps (talk) 13:29, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Saleh v. Bush

• I attempted to restart an existing discussion on the article-talkpage, but have not yet received a response (low-traffic leaf-article).
• I then asked for some eyeballs on WP:IRC, where SparksofLight suggested an RfC, whilst AntiComposite suggested contacting this noticeboard.
• State the article being discussed; Saleh v. Bush
• Include diffs to the specific change being proposed: well, although I made a small change to the article (removing a weak source and inserting an ever-so-slightly-better one), but that is not the content-dispute for which I would like some NPOVN advice... rather, I would like NPOVN folks to please say whether they think the article needs WP:TNT or maybe even WP:AfD, which to my eyes seems to be the two viable options
• Concisely state the problem perceived: the body-prose of the article is using wikivoice and WP:SYNTH to litigate the lawsuit against the defendants, most of whom are famous living people, and often the sentences are backed by either WP:ABOUTSELF sources (the plaintiffs) or WP:PRIMARY sources (the court docs)

If some folks with a bit more expertise than me in the topic of international legal battles over alleged war crimes can please take a look, I would appreciate it. 47.222.203.135 (talk) 04:25, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

I've very briefly looked over the article and think that it is written as a soapbox for the legal efforts of the plaintiff and her legal team, rather than as an encyclopedia article about the legal case and it's outcome. I think it needs a rewrite from independent sources. -Ronz (talk) 18:01, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

I was WP:BOLD and reverted it prior to the latest expansion of the article, done by a WP:SPA ip, 68.106.25.127 (talk · contribs). Subsequent edits [11] are relatively minor beyond expanding the "Chronology of the lawsuit" section, and noting that the section is poorly sourced and BLP applies [12]. --Ronz (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Historical Vedic religion

Historical Vedic religion is too euro-centric in its bias. It only references Western scholars. Unfortunately much of western scholarship on Indian history is built on layers of colonial bias. To make an article on India neutral and unbiased, it must cite modern Indian scholars in equal measure if not more.