Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music

Papa Haydn

By accident far from my wiki-home I discovered Papa Haydn without any project banners, although talk is relatively recent.

Its only category is Joseph Haydn. The article may be more about classical music than about Joseph, eg:

"Papa" as founder

Another sense of the term "Papa Haydn" comes from his role in the history of classical music, notably in the development of the symphony and string quartet.

So I "assigned" it to you as well as to Biography and Composers. --P64 (talk) 21:01, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Antonín Dvořák

Lately, I have been thinking about doing a GA/FA push for Antonín Dvořák. The discussion is here if anyone is interested. Comments, additions and ideas on how to improve the article are always welcome. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 01:42, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Classical Barnstar

Template:Classical Barnstar has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. mabdul 19:47, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Sebastian Lee and Sébastien Lee

Sebastian Lee and Sébastien Lee were both cellists who lived from 1805 to 1887, but the articles claim one was German and one was French. It looks like they are the same person, who was born in Germany and eventually moved back, but spent a significant amount of time in France. If this is correct, the articles should be merged. TimBentley (talk) 00:55, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it is the same person. I've merged the information and redirected to Sebastian Lee, as he is better known (and his music is still published) under this name. His "40 Studies" are still well known among cellists. --Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 07:34, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Mozart GA/FA push

Hi. Just so everyone is aware, I am trying to help improve Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart to GA/FA status. The discussion is at Talk:Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart#GA/FA Push. Input from project members would be very much appreciated. Thank you, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 17:05, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Elimination of Latsabidze Giorgi biography in French Wikipedia

Hello my name is Adolfo, I have 39 years and I studied piano for 30 years, I'm writing from Spain. My teacher was from Georgia and he spoke of his country's best musician Latsabidze Giorgi, I study their records and know well their work and career. First I want to congratulate you for your good article on Latsabidze in the English Wikipedia. I'm writing because I need your help because Latsabidze's biography has been removed from the French Wikipedia, they have told many lies about Latsabidze, they say they have never won the international competition Rubeinstein of Paris, who has never received the scholarship Carol Hogel, who has never recorded an album etc .... As you can see here:http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussion:Giorgi_Latsabidze/Suppression I wrote to administrators to demonstrate the lies they tell: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussion_utilisateur:LPLT (August 12) http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussion_utilisateur:Wikinade (August 15) After demonstrating that they lie, I have requested that the biography is restored in the French Wikipedia as you can see here:http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipédia:Demande_de_restauration_de_page#Giorgi_Latsabidze (August 17) They've given the reasons as you can see and I have proven to be lies. I need your help and the help of the English Wikipedia, I need people to write to show their disagreement with the decision because only tell lies about Giorgi Latsabidze. I can not and I just need people to agree with me that it is written in the French Wikipedia showing their disagreement. Thank you very much for your attention--Carlitosbull (talk) 08:59, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Adolfo, some of those links are dead. gonflé. Aucune trace de notoriété It seems that they were worried about (i) Notability, (ii) puff-piece. I'm a bit surprised on count (i), and (ii) can easily be dealt with. Did they not even give you the option of a sandbox while you work on it? (that can be tricky, BLPs are subject to sourcing requirements whether in or out of sandbox). I don't edit much on fr.wp but enough to feel entitled to support an article there if 1 or 2 others did. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:02, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Article alerts not working?

Is there something wrong with alerts? I was wondering why there's been no WP:CM editor input to Talk:Tôn-Thất Tiết RM, and now I see that the alert didn't pick up the RM. I have put in one for the other well known French-Vietnamese composer, the Messaien student Talk:Nguyen-Thien Dao → Nguyễn Thiện Đạo per EMI and Erato LP covers (no sign of a CD reissue...) we'll see if that kicks the alert trigger. (not that all music editors automatically support funny names) In ictu oculi (talk) 15:02, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

• ...Ah, because the article affected actually has to have WikiProject Classical music tag on Talk page, not just WP Composer Tag. Subproject tags don't get picked up by alerts... Fair enough. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:34, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Mass in B minor

On the talk, I had a question in April 2010 about the tempo markings, it's still open. Right now, the Mass is mentioned on the Main page, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:05, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Not waiting any longer, I started a table Mass in B minor structure. Please check it for omissions/mistakes, and please check if it should replace part of the Main article, I didn't dare to go that far, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:11, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Planned edit-a-thon

From 8–14 October 2012, Australia's primary classical music broadcaster, ABC Classic FM, will be holding a countdown of the top 100 French works of classical music as voted by listeners to the radio station. Some Australian Wikipedians including myself are planning to be involved in an edit-a-thon and related meetup in Sydney to create and improve articles about the works on the countdown. Feel free to join in if you'd like! Graham87 13:57, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Very nice! For those of us non-locals, perhaps you can have participants create a list of articles created/edited, so members of this group can examine and perhaps expand. -- kosboot (talk) 00:28, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Good idea. I've copied your comment to the editathon's talk page. All comments should go there rather than here so the conversation is kept in one place. Graham87 05:21, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

The project page now includes a "to do" list which we will keep updated with all of the things we think of that need fixing/creating etc. Please feel free to add your own ideas there, comment and take tasks from that list! Here it is: Wikipedia:Meetup/Sydney/October_2012#To_do. Wittylama 01:56, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Since this takes place in a library, you should add your editathon to the events at: Wikipedia Loves Libraries. kosboot (talk) 02:21, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Good idea; done. Graham87 03:53, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Gabriel Fauré

May I nominate Gabriel Faure for Today's featured article on November 4th? I asked the most significant contributor, Ssilvers, and he said it was alright, but to ask here, so I am.--Lucky102 (talk) 15:46, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

I need to know.--Lucky102 (talk) 20:29, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Why not? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:57, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Musopen: adding free music to articles

I've recently come across Musopen, which not only serves as a repository for free (i.e. freely licenced) music, but has also commissioned recordings of professional orchestras performing famous pieces which have been released into the Public Domain. A list of the "Musopen Symphony Orchestra" recordings can be found here (under Music, not Most Popular), and it would be great to have these added to the articles that don't currently have a recording for readers to listen to. In order to add them, follow these steps:

1. Register at Musopen (allows 5 downloads a day)
2. Navigate to the page of the piece you want to add (you can click on the piece's arrow button on the right under "Learn More" for the piece you want from the link above)
3. A list of recordings should appear, with buttons "Bookmark", "Download" and "Play Music" (note that some, such as the Coriolan Overture do not seem to have the recordings uploaded)
4. Click on the arrow on the far right of the "Download" button, and click on "HQ File" from the drop down list that appears
5. Download the file, and convert to FLAC (dBpoweramp Music Converter is very easy to use once installed)
6. Convert this FLAC file to OGG Vorbis (the format Wikipedia uses) using oggdropXPd for best results (even easier to use once installed)
7. Upload this OGG file to Wikimedia Commons (give the page URL as the source, Musopen as the author and specify "Another reason not mentioned above" with the following code: {{PD-author|[http://www.musopen.org/music/piece/1568 Musopen]}}, but repeating the source page URL in place of http://www.musopen.org/music/piece/1568
8. Use a simple filename (I've been using "Musopen - Piece name.ogg") and then add it to the article using the following code: {{Listen|filename=Musopen - Piece name.ogg|title=''Title''|description=''Title'' performed by the [[Musopen]] Symphony Orchestra}} (replacing the filename with the name you uploaded it as, and the title)

It may seem complicated at first, but once done the first time is really very straightforward. I've added recordings to a couple of articles, but am having trouble downloading the tracks from Musopen at the moment (which I put down to my internet connection), so if anyone else wants to help out here either follow the instructions, or if you'd rather just download them and email the files to me, I'd be happy to convert, upload and add them to the articles. Thanks. --xensyria^T 21:08, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Nice work! However, it'd be better to use the lossless files. See [[this related discussion from last year. IMO it would also be a good idea to add the composer's name in the file name. Graham87 12:09, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Also see WikiProject Free music and its talk page, a project that dealt with many of the original Musopen uploads. You may want to contact Sven Manguard and/or Raul654 about Musopen. IIRC the latter user negotiated with the founder of the site to allow recordings from Musopen on Wikipedia in the first place; the former user instigated the proposal I mentioned above. I don't have much time to work on this at the moment but I wish you well. Graham87 12:21, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, my half-baked solution (I used the suggested general preference for ogg files, down to the encoder software - I hadn't seen the discussion you mention at the time) was based on the disappointing lack of good quality examples on most of the relevant articles, and an assumption that many of this project's users may not be very tech savvy (which seems unfounded in hindsight). Thankfully it seems to have spurred another user to use a much better set of steps than I'd taken and add many other Musopen pieces; I hope they continue to be added as Musopen produces them! --xensyria^T 22:10, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

The code in step 8 above should be {{Listen| filename= Musopen - Piece name.ogg | title= ''Title'' | description= ''Title'' performed by the [[Musopen]] Symphony Orchestra | type= music}} - i.e. with an additional |type=music. That sets the appropriate icon and allows tracking of where free music is used. (I've also added white space for readability and ease of editing; but that's less critical.) Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:39, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

{{Musopen}} should also be used in the source field. --xensyria^T 03:53, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Nitpick: that should be Commons:Template:Musopen, to be used in the file description at Commons.

Re steps 5 & 6: The conversion from MP3 or FLAC to OGG can also be done with Audacity (audio editor). -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:09, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

That's the template, perhaps I should have said one only needs to type {{Musopen}}. And I'm not sure about Audacity, but I know that some of the other encoders aren't at the same standard as the preferred Hydrogenaudio-recommended encoders: dBpoweramp for example gave awful results, stripping all metadata and started at about 1 minute in when played back through VLC (hence why I didn't merge steps 5 and 6). Also, the lossless audio files for most of the tracks that I saw (and I was mostly looking at the newly commissioned "Musopen Symphony Orchestra" pieces) were in m4a format, which is propriety, though it seems the HQ format for their older files is still FLAC; it might be best just to convert to FLAC and upload, but OGG's smaller file size is a strength. --xensyria^T 06:05, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps you're using the free version of dBpoweramp, because the paid one keeps all tags just fine and tend to be the preferred audio converter from what I've seen. But it pains me to see people talking about going from Mp3 to Ogg in the first place. :-( Yes it's smaller but it also creates quality loss on top of quality loss. Not a problem for 30 second samples, but whole pieces, especially well recorded ones it's....just bad. As for M4A, those are AAC files, like you would buy on iTunes. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 13:36, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Template:Johann Sebastian Bach should be kept

Keep - My template for Johann Sebastian Bach was removed from several articles without proper discussion taking place. I believe that Template:Johann Sebastian Bach should be kept, as there are more than 5 articles related to him. Perhaps several "sub-templates" could be nested under this one.

--Jax 0677 (talk) 10:15, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't see yet for which purpose we need this template. The articles appear on the main article Bach, and people looking up works can easily go there, I see no need to blow up hundreds of articles. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:19, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment - If this is the case, then we don't need any navboxes on Wikipedia at all. The navbox is designed to assist in navigating between related articles. The article about JSB itself and the articles that relate to it are long, and the navbox makes finding these articles much easier. This navbox is in line with WP:ANOEP.--Jax 0677 (talk) 10:23, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't agree. I like the template Bach cantatas

and (almost) could not live without it ;) It allows easy links between articles of the same kind. I don't see a reader of the Mass in B minor article sufficiently interested in the Bach family, for example, to install links to those rather remote articles. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:33, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment - Given the number of Bach family members, I strongly believe that some type of navbox is in order, and recommend that people make suggestions instead of just eliminating the navbox outright. Instead of removing a navbox from all articles, which is the antithesis of consensus, it should at a minimum be brought to AfD, instead of making threats to involve an admin as was done on my talk page.--Jax 0677 (talk) 10:56, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't mean to threaten. I asked you to wait, you didn't listen, I felt a bit helpless. Perhaps you wait now, that Mirokado said it much nicer? ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:09, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

• Comment. Since you have started this section to discuss whether the template should be added or not, please do not keep adding it until the issue is resolved. Generally we should ensure there is consensus to make wide-ranging systematic changes to articles, which is another reason to hold off until there is consensus to add this. If the decision is to add it, please look at WP:APPENDIX and other articles with navboxen to see where in the source it goes. I will think a bit before responding to the actual keep-or-not question. --Mirokado (talk) 11:04, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

The template I removed was unsuitable for inclusion in any article. That's why I removed it. Following WP:BRD, this discussion ought to have been the next step. Now, that User:Hyacinth has made some sensible changes (and may possibly continue to so), it may be used on pages which are mentioned in the template, but it should not be deployed on every JSB-related article; see WP:NAVBOX, ("... every article that transcludes a given navbox should normally also be included as a link in the navbox so that the navigation is bidirectional." – Wikipedia:A navbox on every page is not an accepted guideline or even policy. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:21, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Concur - I concur that the new navbox is satisfactory, and that whatever is related to JSB (and is not a Bach cantata) can be placed in the navbox. IMO, the navbox should have been trimmed, not deleted from all pages that it was on, including the parent article.--Jax 0677 (talk) 16:31, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Should birth/death dates be added in parentheses to members of the Bach family, or perhaps their relation to Bach? For example, "Anna Magdalena Bach" would appear as "Anna Magdalena Bach (1701–1760)" or "Anna Magdalena Bach (wife)". Hyacinth (talk) 23:58, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

@Jax 0677: Concur? I said the opposite of what you claim to concur to; the Template:Johann Sebastian Bach cannot possibly be populated with "whatever is related to JSB" nor should it be used in articles which are not mentioned in it.

Jax 0677 has created another half-baked template, {{Bach family}}, which has inappropriate content and is mis-categorised; see Template talk:Bach family. Despite these flaws and without learning from the previous experience, Jax 0677 deployed this template immediately to 4 articles, 3 of which already had the controversial Template:Johann Sebastian Bach. I suggest to remove it from all articles, whether its obvious flaws are corrected or not, and discuss the need, name, content, and deployment of such a template.

@Hyacinth: Their relationship to JSB seems more informative to me. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:01, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

The navbox does seem much improved. If the current "List" articles were added to the compositions section, it seems like it might be OK in the "See also" section of the main Bach article. Can't say that I care for the color though. --Robert.Allen (talk) 16:18, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment

@Michael - What I meant is that articles that are related to JSB might be includable into Template:Johann Sebastian Bach. If this is the case, then they can be included in those articles. The Bach family has more than 5 notable family members, who can also be added to {{Bach family}} along with articles related to them. If there are many articles related to an individual, then an additional navbox for that individual can be created. I have deleted the portals and changed the category, which were oversights.

TfD exists for the purpose of deciding which navboxes to keep or not. Deleting a navbox from ALL articles is a lot like deleting the entire template from Wikipedia before consensus is reached, and opposes WP:BEBOLD.

BTW, why was the template removed from the Johann Sebastian Bach article?--Jax 0677 (talk) 17:42, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

1) Surely, that article doesn't need 2 templates with overlapping content. 2) The template seemed to be be still under construction. A template for the most influential composer ever needs careful consideration, which seemed to be lacking.

Being bold is the 1st step in the WP:BRD cycle, although in the past similar issues have been put up for discussion here first; this template might have benefited from such a discussion.

@Robert Allen: 1) Both template are based on {{Navbox musical artist}} and their colouring stems from the |background=solo_singer in the case of {{Johann Sebastian Bach}}, and from |background=group_or_band in the case of {{Bach family}}; this seems a strange choice as we use {{Navbox}} for other composers. 2) The "See also" section is not the proper place for navigation boxes, the bottom of the article is; see MOS:FOOTERS.

Nitpick: Both templates use documentation which claims they use the {{collapsible option}} but they don't. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:19, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

State added to both templates so that they have the collapsible option. Hyacinth (talk) 10:43, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Should the three templates be combined into one template?

I am wondering, should Template:Johann Sebastian Bach, Template:Bach family and Template:Bach cantatas be combined into one template, having the other two redirect to Template:Johann Sebastian Bach? Any family member with less than 4-5 related articles could be put in the related articles section of the template, and and family member with more can have their very own template. Thoughts?--Jax 0677 (talk) 04:51, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I vote against combining Bach cantatas with anything. It's complex and dedicated to the one topic, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 04:54, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Gerda that the cantatas template doesn't lend itself to further expansion. As for JSB Bach & family: several editors have spent considerable effort to sort out their content (and that of {{C.P.E. Bach}}) – their content & deployment seems now about right to me and I suggest to leave them as they are. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 09:53, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Leitmotif

Comments welcomed here to help resolve a disagreement. Thanks, --Smerus (talk) 19:10, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Music for a Time of War

I encourage project members to review this newly-constructed article as well as its talk page. There are a few more sources needing to be incorporated into the article. Hopefully this will make a great addition to WikiProject Classical music and Wikipedia once completed and reviewed thoroughly. Thanks! --Another Believer _(Talk) 16:37, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Bryllupsdag på Troldhaugen

There's an ongoing discussion on the article's talk page right now about the current title. Maybe you guys could enlight the situation a bit ! Thanks Krenakarore ^TK 01:13, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Missa Brevis (Bernstein)

Promising new article by a new editor. It's still a little rough around the edges, so any help with polishing it up would be appreciated. Voceditenore (talk) 17:08, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

MusicBrainz

While checking over work done by the VIAFbot and checking out the article on WP:UID, I discovered that Wikipedia encourages unique identifiers for recorded music using MusicBrainz. In looking over the templates at MusicBrainz templates, it seems that it applies to recordings. Is it only popular recordings, or is classical music also involved? (I vaguely recalled someone posting about this here, but I can't find it in the archives.) -- kosboot (talk) 20:12, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Krzysztof Penderecki

Hello. I am planning to make Krzysztof Penderecki an FA with the goal of making it a TFA on 23 November 2013, the composer's 80th anniversary of his birth. The discussion is at Talk:Krzysztof Penderecki#FA push?. Input from project members would be very much appreciated. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 01:17, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Mendelssohn Violin Concerto (Nathan Milstein album)

The reason it sounds familiar is that it was the world's first classical LP. I don't suppose anyone has access to a copyrightfree picture? ...Though I'm imagining the cover was probably a brown paper sleeve. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:06, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Is there any reason this needs to be its own article instead of a couple of sentences in the article for the violin concerto and possibly for LP? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 07:23, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi Melodia Chaconne, depends where one's interest lies I suppose. For example what do you consider is most notable out of en.wp's 100 or so classical album articles? In ictu oculi (talk) 10:33, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

David Chan (violinist)

Just created this article, based on this afternoon's nice concert at Carnegie Hall. It's a little rough, but I need to get to sleep - perhaps others can neaten it. Thanks! He's really a good violinist. -- kosboot (talk) 04:13, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

CfD nomination of Category:Classical albums by date

Category:Classical albums by date has been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming. You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for discussion page.--Richhoncho (talk) 12:00, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Help needed at Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Ernest So

A first-time editor could use some help as to establishing notability for this Chinese classical pianist and composer. Thanks for any assistance, or stance as to whether this figure can meet WP:N. MatthewVanitas (talk) 18:12, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Classical crossover

cf. Billboard 2006 "On the Top Classical Crossover Albums chart, a trio of familiar acts dominates the top places. Andrea Bocelli's "Amore" (Sugar/ Decca) takes the top spot, followed by three albums by Il Divo (Syco/Columbia): "Ancora," "The Christmas .. etc. the term classical crossover is distinct enough in the record industry to have a chart. The subarticle Classical crossover mentions Pure (Hayley Westenra album) as an example, but Pure (Hayley Westenra album) doesn't have a genre tag Category:Classical crossover albums. Should there be this category? (category:Opera crossover singers does exist) In ictu oculi (talk) 06:04, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Go for it: I don't see why not. --xensyria^T 00:39, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I will proceed with caution. Will err on the side of considering anything borderline as straight classical at the first run-through. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:43, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit-warring at Goldberg Variations

Members may want to provide input at this discussion. Voceditenore (talk) 15:37, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Resolved by a couple of admins. DavidRF (talk) 18:32, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Should "recommended recordings" be added to Classical Music articles?

I was looking at the article on Mozart's piano concerto no. 19 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Concerto_No._19_%28Mozart%29), trying to determine if a supposed recording of it by Wanda Landowska is real or mythical. But, alas, no listing of famous and/or recommended recordings. In fact, no discussion at all of recordings of the piece.

This is a serious omission. I suggest that all single-composition articles include such a section. For example, for Mozart's piano concerto no. 19, some of the entries would look like these:

• George Szell (cond), Rudolf Serkin (pf), Columbia Symphony Orchestra - Columbia, 1961
• Neville Marriner (cond), Alfred Brendel (pf), Academy of St. Martin's in the Fields - Philips, 1971
• Alexander Schneider (cond), Peter Serkin (pf), English Chamber Orchestra - RCA, 1974
• Murray Perahia (cond & pf), English Chamber Orchestra - Columbia, ca. 1984

Note that in this example, names are spelled out in full, the part taken by each performer is specified, and the year of the recording and the company that originally made it are given. Entries are in chronological order, oldest to newest.

Given that many important recordings have been released multiple times in both the LP and the CD eras, also that downloads are gradually displacing physical media as the primary distribution channel for classical music, inclusion of specific catalog numbers would be to no real purpose. Readers wanting to acquire this or that recording can turn to Amazon or any similar online source for details of which recordings are available in what form.

Undoubtedly, enthusiasts for obscure musicians of cult status will add references to their recordings, even though neither the musician nor the recordings are of significance in the larger scheme of things, thereby cluttering up such references. I can also imagine someone with exaggerated opinions looking at the example list I provided above and deleting (say) the reference to the Perahia recording "because he's a turkey" or for some other specious reason, when the truth is that they simply dislike Perahia's recordings. My advice is not to worry about such issues until they actually become a problem, rather than try to make up a lot of rules in advance. Better that such a list be too long than too short - maybe!

Floozybackloves (talk) 20:14, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

"Selected discography" sections are found in many articles. WP:RS and WP:DUE are the key guidelines here. Toccata quarta (talk) 20:21, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Should "recommended recordings" be added to Classical Music articles? -- the answer is no. Either an attempt at a complete listing of (professional) recordings should be made, or nothing should be. Wikipedia should certainly not be recommending anything. For more popular works, there'd be nothing wrong with splitting it out onto its own page. But even going beyond people's opinions of "that one sucks" or "this obscure recording is the bomb" the issue is that there's no authoritative sources on just what constitutes the 'best' recordings -- for everyone who might remove Parahia's recording, someone else might want to add Derek Han's. Why those four in this instance, outside the fact they are on major labels (and I use that term objectively as none of them are really major in the subjective sense these days)? What about, say, the first one recorded? First digital? First surround? First on a period piano? Maybe even first as part of a complete set? Any of those are probably far more worth noting. Yes obviously a lot of reviewers and publications have their favorites, but given how subjective anything is, there's no good way of distilling it into any sort of shortened list. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 21:38, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Please. Have you not noticed that Wikipedia articles incorporate images, sound files, and "Further reading" sections? Your other point is contrary to WP:RS and WP:DUE. Toccata quarta (talk) 21:47, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't see how images and sound files go against what I wrote. As for further reading, usually these are pretty comprehensive already given that most things don't have huge numbers of books written about them. As for going against RS? I fail to see how a comprehensive listing of recordings can possibly go against that. As for WP:DUE, it doesn't even seem to really apply to this situation. I'm not even arguing that every single recording ever should be listed, but if you consider that in pop music pretty much every artist with a page has their entire discography listed, even albums that will never get pages, I don't see listing every recording that at least could be considered to be decently distributed should not be listed in the same fashion for classical works.

Let's put this another way - consider that there are currently 90 listings on ArkivMusic for Mozart's PC17. Even if 40 of the them are the same recording repackaged (a decent estimate given how many have the same performer, though I'd wager high), that's still 50 separate recordings of the piece available at one of the largest classical music retailers. That doesn't even get into ones no longer available, never released on CD, etc. Why should only 4 of those 50 be listed? And if not only those 4, how many? How DO we determine which ones get listed? Maybe ones performed by artists with their own WP page (I would guess the large majority)? Still, a red link doesn't mean they don't deserve a WP page, so even then.

I'm actually quite curious how you think it should be determined. But one thing is for sure, the trend toward only older recordings and/or only major labels is a very bad one. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 23:46, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

"Recommended" is probably a phrase to avoid here, but notable recordings would add to an article, though only (of course) if they have reliable independent sources naming them as such, and I believe some music encyclopaedias do include such lists. This would also limit the number included in the article, but wouldn't preclude a separate list of all known published recordings. --xensyria^T 00:39, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

I think that describes exactly the current practice, or at least its intent, with which I agree. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:38, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Under construction: Infobox Bach cantata or composition

Because the facts about any given cantata appear throughout the article, I thought about an infobox, first just for cantata, then: it might be useful for other works by Bach as well. I tried it on one, BWV 40, comments welcome. It might be expanded to more details about the included chorales, for example, more variables might be needed if not only for cantatas. I suggest not to use a picture of Bach - he looks too old for most of his works, but show the building of the (likely) premiere, to give a feeling for the time. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:09, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

For clicking convenience: the template there is {{Infobox Bach composition}}; there's also {{Infobox Bach cantata}}. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:45, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

I won't comment on the use of an infobox itself, but I noticed that the location field seems a bit isolated – I originally was unsure about which location it referred to (at first glance). Maybe include it in the premiere field: 26 December 1723, Leipzig. As for the image, maybe use the original manuscript if available? Just my 2¢. Focus (talk) 12:49, 17 December 2012 (UTC)