Wikipedia:Featured article review: Difference between revisions
+ |
move three, delist 1 |
||
Line 11: | Line 11: | ||
{{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Equal Protection Clause/archive1}} |
{{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Equal Protection Clause/archive1}} |
||
{{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Open cluster/archive1}} |
{{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Open cluster/archive1}} |
||
⚫ | |||
⚫ | |||
⚫ | |||
{{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Peterborough Chronicle/archive1}} |
{{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Peterborough Chronicle/archive1}} |
||
{{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Able Archer 83/archive1}} |
{{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Able Archer 83/archive1}} |
||
Line 20: | Line 17: | ||
==Featured article removal candidates== |
==Featured article removal candidates== |
||
:''Place the most recent review at the top. '''If the nomination is just beginning, place under Featured Article Review, not here.''''' |
:''Place the most recent review at the top. '''If the nomination is just beginning, place under Featured Article Review, not here.''''' |
||
⚫ | |||
⚫ | |||
⚫ | |||
{{Wikipedia:Featured article review/BC Rail/archive1}} |
{{Wikipedia:Featured article review/BC Rail/archive1}} |
||
{{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Siege/archive1}} |
{{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Siege/archive1}} |
||
Line 26: | Line 26: | ||
{{Wikipedia:Featured article review/New Radicals/archive1}} |
{{Wikipedia:Featured article review/New Radicals/archive1}} |
||
{{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Comet/archive1}} |
{{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Comet/archive1}} |
||
{{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Mumbai/archive1}} |
|||
{{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Macedonia (terminology)/archive2}} |
{{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Macedonia (terminology)/archive2}} |
||
{{Wikipedia:Featured article review/H II region/archive1}} |
{{Wikipedia:Featured article review/H II region/archive1}} |
Revision as of 02:26, 26 May 2009
Reviewing featured articles This page is for the review and improvement of featured articles (FAs) that may no longer meet the featured article criteria. FAs are held to the current standards regardless of when they were promoted. There are three requisite stages in the process, to which all users are welcome to contribute. 1. Raise issues at the article's talk page
2. Featured article review (FAR)
3. Featured article removal candidate (FARC)
The FAR and FARC stages typically last two to three weeks, or longer where changes are ongoing and it seems useful to continue the process. Nominations are moved from the review period to the removal list, unless it is very clear that editors feel the article is within criteria. Given that extensions are always granted on request, as long as the article is receiving attention, editors should not be alarmed by an article moving from review to the removal candidates' list. To contact the FAR coordinators, please leave a message on the FAR talk page, or use the {{@FAR}} notification template elsewhere. Urgent reviews are listed here. Older reviews are stored in the archive. Table of Contents – This page: Purge cache, Checklinks, Check redirects, Dablinks |
Featured article candidates (FAC) Today's featured article (TFA):
Featured article tools: |
Nominating an article for FAR The number of FARs that can be placed on the page is limited as follows:
Nominators are strongly encouraged to assist in the process of improvement; they should not nominate articles that are featured on the main page (or have been featured there in the previous three days) and should avoid segmenting review pages. Three to six months is regarded as the minimum time between promotion and nomination here, unless there are extenuating circumstances such as a radical change in article content.
|
Featured article reviews
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by Raul654 05:14, 8 July 2009 [1].
Review commentary
WikiProjects notified
- Problems with (1c) The article is almost entirely sourced to one reference and large amounts of unsourced paragraphs. The minority refs do not have publisher info and look like a personal website.
- A lot of listy bits
- Inconsistent formatting of numbers, etc YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 01:53, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Inconsistent formatting of numbers is an easy fix and shouldn't count, and I'm not concerned by the single reference source- the source could be the definitive text on the subject, making reference elsewhere redundant, for example. I do agree the article could use a few more references for some of the paragraphs, but generally it seems OK to me. Commander Zulu (talk) 03:22, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: there are a number of paragraphs without an in line citation. The basic rule for B class is at least one per paragraph or block of information, so I imagine that for FA it would need this at a minimum. I would probably like to see page numbers in the citations, but that is not necessarily a must. On the whole, though, it has good content, seems well written, it is well illustrated, etc. Probably just needs a few minor fixes and should be able to stay listed in my opinion. — AustralianRupert (talk) 03:36, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Counter-comment (Comment on comment? Whatever :)) There are no rules that say you must have a certain number of cites per paragraph. There are rules that say that "Material challenged or likely to be challenged, and all quotations, must be attributed to a reliable, published source.", and in practice this does usually mean that at least one cite per para is necessary, but I wouldn't want anyone to think that getting to FA-standard means achieving a greater and greater density of citations. If you're using high quality printed media references, you can often get the desired result with fewer cites than if you're using a ragbag of random websites, for example. Rant over. :) 4u1e (talk) 17:08, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- No there isn't and definitely if you write a sport bio from web only you will need a different news/stats report for each game whereas with a dedicated biog it will all worked into the same place. But still, (1c) "well researched" generally implies that there is a variety of sources. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 03:00, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Like I said before, the book the editor used might very well be the Definitive Text on the subject. There isn't always a need for many sources, IMHO. Commander Zulu (talk) 08:59, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- No there isn't and definitely if you write a sport bio from web only you will need a different news/stats report for each game whereas with a dedicated biog it will all worked into the same place. But still, (1c) "well researched" generally implies that there is a variety of sources. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 03:00, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Image problems: Sources and rationales required for File:Krag-Jørgensen-Hotchkiss.jpg, File:Krag-Jørgensen-Speed Loader 2.jpg and File:Krag-Jørgensen SNABB38.jpg. DrKiernan (talk) 10:56, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, copyrights. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 01:56, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist per own statement YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 01:56, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, agree with above assessment by YellowMonkey (talk · contribs). Cirt (talk) 07:02, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist Claims like "design was considered promising", "made the rifle more cumbersome" and "...for use when hunting seals from small boats. They were turned down due to the high cost of manufacturing" ought to have sources. DrKiernan (talk) 14:24, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 01:05, 22 June 2009 [2].
Review commentary
My main concern is 2c, as the sources seem very thin. Very large chunks of information are unsourced. The "legacy" section is also listy, poorly sourced, and reads like a trivia section, which also seems to be unfocused (section 4), straying too far from the topic. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 15:55, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments from Collectonian (talk · contribs)
I agree, this article no longer appears to be of FA quality. The plot is excessive, at nearly 900 words, failing criteria 2 (WP:MOSFILMS. Cast list seems unnecessary and should be smerged into plot as indicated by same MoS. The few bits of prose are completely unsourced, failing criteria 1c. If sourcable, move into production section. Some of the background content seems a bit off-track, unfocused. The initial stages section has more unsourced content, as does the Casting, Music, Reception, and Merchandizing sections. It also fails criteria 1c in that it is using unreliable sources, including IMDB, and many of the sources are badly formatted (and 23's a combo of 2 or 3 sources). Several "references" are also just notes without sources to confirm them. The legacy section does indeed appear to be a trivia section, with questionable sourcing for much. Some actual bits could be moved into reception after cleaning out the bad bits. There is also an excess of external links in the EL section.-- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 16:06, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
May be worth comparing the article's current revision with the revision at the time it was promoted: diff. The "Cast" section was added since the promotion, and the "Legacy" section has been expanded. (That particular section seems fairly trivial to me.) In addition, the "Charges of racism" section could be improved (avoiding the weasel wording of equating Film Quarterly critic Jonathan Rosenbaum's opinion as "Some observers"). The Turner citation seems to be a worthwhile addition that could possibly expanded. Overall, though, I can tell this is an article from the earlier days of Wikipedia and WikiProject Films, where we do not have as high standards for film articles. It's a Good Article at best, and I do not think it benefited from much copy-editing nor research. From what I can tell in a cursory search, there is coverage in Cinefantastique, American Cinematographer, Cinefex, and Journal of Popular Film and Television. Judging from the lack of results at WorldCat.org, though, there are no books or full chapters critiquing the film. I think some of the additions to the article since its promotion indicate that any retrospective detail about Gremlins will be fairly piecemeal. (I found a couple of paragraphs in a horror film book via Amazon.com about how Gremlins and Gremlins 2 attacks Reagan ideology.) —Erik (talk • contrib) 17:36, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The prose is really a fair distance from our 1a standard--and, frankly, I don't believe it should have been passed under the 1a definition at the time (June 4, 2006): "the prose is compelling, even brilliant." The prose is serviceable, at times labored. At any rate, it is not of a professional standard. This article would require a full-dress effort on several fronts to represent our best work. DocKino (talk) 05:43, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, prose, focus. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources.
- Delist, per FA criteria concerns, and above comments. Cirt (talk) 07:04, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, article has sadly not been touched since FAR started beyond some vandalism. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 13:44, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist as nominator, clearly no longer FA quality as FA has gotten so much tougher. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 22:21, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist due to inability to meet FA criteria and no real improvement since coming to FAR. We can do better than this for Featured Articles of films. —Erik (talk • contrib) 21:27, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was kept by YellowAssessmentMonkey 02:02, 7 August 2009 [3].
Review commentary
- Notified: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Classical warfare task force, User talk:Paul August, User talk:Sj.
FA from 2004, referencing/1c issues. Article seems to rely way too heavily on primary sources as opposed to secondary sources. Could use an overall copyedit pass and review for flow. Image review and cleanup/improvement of the individual image pages would also be helpful, images include: File:AtaloPergamo.jpg, File:Dying gaul.jpg, File:AttalusICorrected.jpg, and File:Attalus I coin depicting Philetairos.jpg. Cirt (talk) 07:02, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeap, it relies mainly on primary sources, although secondary sources are also used. It was one of the first FAs I read before my own ventures, and almost 3 years later I still regard it as FA quality. I am willing however to help adding secondary sources (through googlebooking only), if that is ok with Paul.--Yannismarou (talk) 18:14, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, of course. Paul August ☎ 04:00, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, I'll start working, maybe as soon as now (!); definitely during the weekend.--Yannismarou (talk) 21:02, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, of course. Paul August ☎ 04:00, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeap, it relies mainly on primary sources, although secondary sources are also used. It was one of the first FAs I read before my own ventures, and almost 3 years later I still regard it as FA quality. I am willing however to help adding secondary sources (through googlebooking only), if that is ok with Paul.--Yannismarou (talk) 18:14, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, copyrights. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 01:59, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, per FA criteria concerns. Cirt (talk) 07:04, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Are there any suggestions for changes to the article? Paul August ☎ 18:16, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Main concern iterated above is heavy usage of primary as opposed to secondary sources. Cirt (talk) 23:14, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Are there any suggestions for changes to the article? Paul August ☎ 18:16, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- O! We are fast here. As I understand the main argument for delisting is citations. I'll express my opinion about copy-editing as well, but, allow me to tell you, that, if somebody argues that the prose is not satisfactory, he/she has to present some concrete examples to support his/her arguments. Otherwise ... In the meantime, I'll start adding secondary sources. As I have made clear, I still believe that this is a FA, and for the time being I am
weakkeep.--Yannismarou (talk) 20:45, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply] - On this subject, from these sources, secondary sources are more likely to summarize Livy than emend him. Most of the obvious secondary sources seem to have already been listed; I would also look at the first chapters of Magie's History of Roman Asia, for an idea of what is important enough to list in comparable space. It would be a virtuous act to check them thoroughly; but it's unlikely to change the text much. Justin (for what he is worth) should also be a primary source, IIRC. Weak keep Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:44, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Turn to full keep. Most primary sources are now backed by secondary ones; and I don't think that any event still cited by only prim sources has been ever questioned. Agree with Sept: secondary sources don't add much; they just summarize Livy without amending him. I promise I'll check Justin.--Yannismarou (talk) 14:15, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- And, by the way, the copyright status of the photos mentioned by Cirt looks to me fine.--Yannismarou (talk) 14:17, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist - there are paragraphs and sentences that are missing citations and {{cquote}}s where {{quote}} or no block quote at all should be used. —Ed (Talk • Contribs) 02:54, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Surely not-too-far-off-keep (?) - I changed the cquotes to quotes, and tweaked a bit of prose here and there, but this subject area is not my forte, and I feared intorducing ambiguity with too much reduction of repetition. Surely the basic biographic details in Early life are easy to source (?) Please keep this open a bit longer and I can see what I can find. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:58, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps some of the present tenses in the verbs should be past tense. Shouldn't there be a source for the conjectures in "Early life"? "twenty decked Rhodian warships" could be unclear to some: 20 decks or 20 ships? I think I would prefer the Magna Mater cult to appear in chronological sequence between the First Macedonian War and Macedonian hostilities of 201 BC rather than at the end. DrKiernan (talk) 12:08, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Tweaked to Rhodian decked, although any reader who can conclude that the Greeks built warships larger than the Titanic is probably hopelessly lost anyway. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:03, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delist (but obviously willing to change in response to edits)Neutral (for explanation see below Paul August's summary comments). The heavy reliance on primary sources itself requires commentary early in the piece. A section is needed along the following lines: "Attalus life is known primarily from Livy, while his blah blah. Scholars' analysis of Livy... (explain what the secondary sources say about Livy's historiography etc)" etc Livy wrote two hundred years after Attalus's time. This could also open a debate about the definition of a primary source, but leaving that aside, the extensive reliance on Roman/ Greek sources requires serious discussion before they are then effectively adopted as reliable. I would also recommend the text be re-styled to occasionally remind us of the basis in sources. "Livy reports that.."; "Polybius's report of the battle described..."
:Other issues:
- Early life is either seriously under-referenced, WP:OR, or both.
- Is there really no archaeological research at all to contribute to a contemporary analysis of this historical figure? I find the lack of archaeological research strange.
- Occasional clunky prose: "The spoils from Oreus had been reserved for Sulpicius, who returned there, while Attalus stayed to collect the spoils from Opus." 'Spoils' used twice, and not felicitous phrasing either. Better might be "Sulpicius returned to the spoils reserved for him from the sacking of Oreus, while Attalus stayed to claim those from Opus" (or similar). "Attalus, with his fleet at Aegina, received an embassy from Athens, to come to the city for consultations." Better might be "Attalus, with his fleet at Aegina, received an embassy from Athens inviting him to consultations in the city." There are others that could be improved.
Why is the section "Introduction of the cult of the Magna Mater to Rome" tacked on after the family section, which reads as though it should be the conclusion to the article, with its final lines about succession and death? hamiltonstone (talk) 05:21, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: I've just got my hands (again) on the most authoritative work on the subject, Esther Hansen's The Attalids of Pergamon (1971). I'll try to review the article for accuracy, giving more granular citations, where it seems appropriate. Paul August ☎ 16:00, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added several cites to the "Early life" section, which I think is now well sourced (if not over sourced). With this and the sourcing that Yannismarou has done, I think the article has adequate sourcing. If other editors think that more sourcing is still required, please say so, and I will try to provide it. Thanks to all for trying to improve the article. Paul August ☎ 18:44, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I must say Hamiltonstone raises some interesting poitns above. Kudos on the early life sourcing. Is there anything in the book about archaeological evidence? I am not familiar with doing ancient hsitory articles, so I could imagine this might vary tremednously from figure to figure. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:37, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Hamilton raises indeed some interesting points, but I cannot agree (and I did not agree even before Paul's further citing) with his first remark. His second remark is interesting, and I also want such a section (an overall assessment of the x personality) in the articles I write, but I do not believe that such an analysis is a prerquisite for FA status; and it is not a standard for biography articles. In any case, such a section should not be necessarily based on archaelogical evidence, as Hamilton seems to imply. Prose issues should be taken care (and maybe they have already been; I did not follow the recent edit history of the article), but, as far as the last remark is concerned, I am also not sure I can agree. In terms of structure, if an important aspect in a person's biography cannot be related to the linear narration of a biography, then it can be placed at the end of the latter; and I can't see any wrong in that, unless something better can be proposed. About archaelogical evidence in particular, I'll contribute in case I find something in the net, google book etc. In any case, keep in mind that the article has already more sources than the average FAs!--Yannismarou (talk) 14:39, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I would not be surprised if there were a serious absence of epigraphical evidence. Pergamum was a capital for a century after Attalus, and a provincial capital for centuries thereafter; Attalus' monuments are likely to have been rebuilt. If secondary sources have nothing to add to Livy, it is likely that there is no evidence on which to base it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:48, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Some responses.
- Paul's intensive work in the last couple of days is improving this greatly, and yes, early life is now sorted.
- I am not sure whether Yannismarou is counting my intro text as my first remark (about the need to discuss the primary sources in the article), or is referring only to the bullet points. Based on Y's reference to archaeological evidence in Y's text, I am assuming s/he has counted just the bullet points, in which case I am very surprised at these observations. Y's own essay on FAs talks about in-line cites being better every sentence than every para: the early life section had only one in-line cite when i viewed it, and that was at the end of the first sentence. Y concludes his/her remarks by saying that this has more sources than the average FA. I don't think that is relevant - this is a matter of being, per FA criteria, "a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature on the topic". If the literature is there, it should be covered. I'm not an expert, hence my query (rather than statement) re archaeological evidence - if it isn't there, then fair enough. Interestingly i note from the footnotes that "inscriptions are the main source of information on Attalus' war with the Galatians", suggesting that archaeological evidence (and i mean not only epigraphical) may be relevant, even important, to the subject. BTW I didn't think this article had many in-line cites by FA standards, so I mustn't be reading the ones that are 'lighter on'.
- Finally, I would again emphasise my point about a need to discuss the sources in the article. If we are relying heavily on Livy, I would suggest an analysis of the implications of such reliance is essential. Otherwise the article may not meet the FA criteria of being comprehensive in "placing the subject in context". It doesn't have to be a huge deal, but it should be there. For examples, see some of the material in the 'background' section of Walter de Coventre (FA), the 'historical record' section of Theramenes (FA), or the 'sources' section of Donnchadh, Earl of Carrick (current FAC). hamiltonstone (talk) 00:37, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't think that note on Theramenes adds much; it omits the minor details that Lysias, Thucydides and Xenophon are contemporaries and that Diodorus is an unreliable compiler of some four centuries later, who may be copying a good source on this subject. Quellenkritik should be done right, or not at all. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:32, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Indeed - I wouldn't know my Gaius from my Julius, so I was oblivious to any issues in the Theramenes text - sounds like a reason to either improve it or bring Theramenes to FAR as well. I just wanted to give illustrations of what kind of text was needed - i'm taking it as read that Paul Agust would do it well, particularly with Septentrionalis cheering him on :-) hamiltonstone (talk) 03:00, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh, it's mostly harmless. But the absence of such a paragraph is no great loss either. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:00, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- In case it is not clear, these are keep arguments. If Theramenes has defects, this article should not be required to imitate it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:16, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Septentrionalis commented "Quellenkritik should be done right, or not at all." This is FA: it should be done right, I would not have thought 'not at all' was an option.:-) hamiltonstone (talk) 03:54, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Indeed - I wouldn't know my Gaius from my Julius, so I was oblivious to any issues in the Theramenes text - sounds like a reason to either improve it or bring Theramenes to FAR as well. I just wanted to give illustrations of what kind of text was needed - i'm taking it as read that Paul Agust would do it well, particularly with Septentrionalis cheering him on :-) hamiltonstone (talk) 03:00, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Some responses.
- Note: I'm continuing to work through the article, checking sources, and adding, or increasing granularity where appropriate. I've done so through the section "Macedonian hostilities of 201 BC". I'll attempt to address other concerns above when I've completed my review. Paul August ☎ 15:14, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I hope this will be kept as an FA. Tony (talk) 13:03, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Note:Continuing to work on the article, but I will be away for the weekend, so nothing more from me till Monday. Paul August ☎ 16:34, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Note for closer - I think this is progressing steadily in the right direction. Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:56, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I've completed a detailed review of the article. Some comments:
- Acurracy: I have (I believe) checked every assertion of fact in the article, and I can write with some confidence that each is well supported by the cited references. If anyone has any concerns about any of the assertions in the article I urge them to please say so and I will attempt to address them.
- Quality of sources: Esther Hansen's The Attalids of Pergamon (531 pages), is by far the most comprehensive work on the subject (for example her chapter on The Reign of Attalus I runs to 44 pages), and while perhaps a bit dated (1971), remains authoritative, particularly so for the purposes of an encyclopedia article (rather than say a research paper). The other secondary sources (mostly provided by Yannismarou) -- all of very high quality -- mostly serve to corroborate Hansen.
- Reliance on primary sources: I believe that those editors who have expressed concerns about the possible over-reliance on primary sources may be misapprehending the situation. Although by glancing through the "Notes" section, one can see many citations to Livy, Polybius, etc, — except for the handful of places in the text where direct quotes have been used — there has been virtually no reliance on primary sources at all. Rather it has been Hansen's work which has been almost universally relied upon. As far as I can tell the article contains no "original research" and no interpretations of primary sources independent of the secondary sources.
- Granularity of sourcing: There are various opinions on how granular source citing ought to be. Should each paragraph have it's own citation?, each sentence? each assertion? In my view no universal rule like this can make sense. This must be judged on a case by case basis, and only by reading and understanding what is being written and its context. You most certainly can't simply scan your eyes down an article and judge the adequacy of sourcing by the density of citations (no offense meant to anyone, and I'm not saying that anyone on this page has done that).
- Commentary on primary sources: hamiltonstone, has suggested above that "the heavy reliance on primary sources itself requires commentary early in the piece". I'm not sure that such a thing would be a particularly useful addition to the article. The primary sources used here are the standard ones for this period and locale. Their idiosyncrasies are well understood, and have no particular significance for this article. Most of what might be said about these sources in relation to this subject would pertain to any article concerning this period and locale. Moreover as I've written above, there has in fact been little reliance on primary sources, and then only to augment and flesh out a bit the secondary sources. Whatever issues there are concerning the primary sources have presumably already been taken into account by the secondary sources.
- Archaeological evidence: hamiltonstone has written: Is there really no archaeological research at all to contribute to a contemporary analysis of this historical figure? I find the lack of archaeological research strange. There has, of course, been significant archaeological research pertaining to Pergamon and the Attalid period. And bits of this research can be seen explicitly in the form of epigraphical evidence in three places in the article, (see notes 10, 48 and 53), although such epigraphical evidence underlies and supports other content in the article. Otherwise, as with the proposed commentary on secondary sources, there is little of particular significance to this subject and the secondary sources have presumably made appropriate use of all relevant archaeological data.
- "Magna Mater" section: Two editors, DrKiernan and hamiltonstone, suggest above that the section on the "Magna Mater" should follow (chronologically) the section on the "First Macedonian War". I have moved the section accordingly.
- Tense: DrKiernan has written above Perhaps some of the present tenses in the verbs should be past tense, but having reread the article, I find no use of present tense at all.
- Paul August ☎ 20:24, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you Paul for your excellent work. I have no problems with the article now retaining its FA listing. I am describing my position as 'neutral' because I am undecided what to think about the lack of explicit treatment of primary sources. On the one hand, I think Paul's point, that "whatever issues there are concerning the primary sources have presumably already been taken into account by the secondary sources", is well made. That is indeed a very good reason to ensure the text is fully referenced to the secondary sources, as Paul has done here. It incidentally also takes care of my query about the archaeology. On the other hand, I don't accept the comment "The primary sources used here are the standard ones for this period and locale. Their idiosyncrasies are well understood". To those familiar with the field, maybe. To a wikipedia reader, that would certainly not be the case. Does that mean these points would need to be raised in every article that relied upon them? Perhaps, but only briefly. I was never suggesting an entire essay. However, I think the fact that the Livy article, for example, does talk about the nature of his writings, together with the citation of secondary sources throughout the current article, ensures there is not a significant problem. Probably I am thinking that if FA is the very best that WP has, then it might indeed go as far as discussing the sources. But no matter. The article is very good, and I am clearly in a minority on this. Thank you Paul and others for their efforts here. hamiltonstone (talk) 04:45, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- My comments on primary sourcing may reflect an over-acute awareness that the primary sources for this article are (as classical history goes) unusually sound: Livy has no axe to grind, and is confirmed in essence by Polybius; to make a point of their flaws is undue weight. The modern historian's expectation of contemporary unbiased sources, compounded with documentary and archival evidence, is (for almost all of ancient history) starkly unrealistic; it may be sort of true for a few years in Athens and Rome, and for a narrow level of information (ruler's epithets, but not dynastic politics) in Egypt. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:34, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you Paul for your excellent work. I have no problems with the article now retaining its FA listing. I am describing my position as 'neutral' because I am undecided what to think about the lack of explicit treatment of primary sources. On the one hand, I think Paul's point, that "whatever issues there are concerning the primary sources have presumably already been taken into account by the secondary sources", is well made. That is indeed a very good reason to ensure the text is fully referenced to the secondary sources, as Paul has done here. It incidentally also takes care of my query about the archaeology. On the other hand, I don't accept the comment "The primary sources used here are the standard ones for this period and locale. Their idiosyncrasies are well understood". To those familiar with the field, maybe. To a wikipedia reader, that would certainly not be the case. Does that mean these points would need to be raised in every article that relied upon them? Perhaps, but only briefly. I was never suggesting an entire essay. However, I think the fact that the Livy article, for example, does talk about the nature of his writings, together with the citation of secondary sources throughout the current article, ensures there is not a significant problem. Probably I am thinking that if FA is the very best that WP has, then it might indeed go as far as discussing the sources. But no matter. The article is very good, and I am clearly in a minority on this. Thank you Paul and others for their efforts here. hamiltonstone (talk) 04:45, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - hahaha, reminds me of reading latin and greek texts at school :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:52, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Three more comments:
- Thanks: To everyone for working to improve the article. Special thanks to Yannismarou for his work on the article and comments above, and also to hamiltonstone and PMAnderson for their thoughtful remarks.
- Unsastisfied conserns?: Some editors who have expressed concerns above with the article have not commented upon the subsequent changes and discussion. I would appreciate knowing if their concerns are still unsatisfied.
- FA status: I don't understand how the FA process works, but to be clear, I have No opinion as to whether this article ought or ought not to be an FA.
- Paul August ☎ 18:32, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 14:33, 16 July 2009 [4].
Review commentary
- Notified Wikipedia:WikiProject Airlines, Wikipedia:WikiProject Florida, Wikipedia:WikiProject New York City, and Wikipedia:WikiProject Miami
The article has a severe lack of inline citations that would disqualify it from being even a good article. I posted requests on various WikiProject pages to ask for help to refimprove it, but so far it hasn't been refimproved. WhisperToMe (talk) 17:54, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Image problems: File:Tran12G7.jpg: needs an LoC id number. Though it's likely to be PD, it's unlikely to be a federal US government image. File:PAA "The Americas" Route Map 1936.jpg and File:PAA San Francisco - Manila - Hong Kong Clipper Schedule.jpg require fair use rationales. DrKiernan (talk) 10:31, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments:
- I've given the article a quick copy edit and added fact tags where needed.
- The prose is fairly good, but the problems come with a lack of citations. I suspect that many of the fact tags could be filled by citations already existing in the article, but that requires someone with the inclination to do it.
- The top of the China Clipper schedule is overlaid with text on my screen.
- The Life Magazine citation needs to be completed.
- Why is a description of the Boeing 307's problems commented out?
- "Some time" is how long?
- There's a run-on sentence in the Airline Deregulation Act paragraph.
- The "19 security failures" sentence is awkward and unclear.
- That's about it. The prose gets a bit less clear as the article goes on, and in the Bankruptcy section, it gets a bit convoluted. Despite that, the citations should be the first priority for anyone looking to improve the article. JKBrooks85 (talk) 23:47, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Suggested FA criteria concern are citations (spot-check showed that some 1-citation paras did not cover all the text), copyrights. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 04:05, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Looks like there have been lots of improvements. Still some 1c issues, in subsection Pan_American_World_Airways#Accidents_and_terrorist_events. Cirt (talk) 01:17, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist. I've given the article a copy edit, and the prose is good at the start but becomes borderline toward the end. The real problem is with the citations, which don't cover the whole article and need to repeated where facts and figures are mentioned. I think that some of the information for those facts is contained in citations that are already present, but they need to be repeated where required. Until the citations are improved, I can't support keeping it. JKBrooks85 (talk) 23:49, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist Improved, but 1c issues still exist and doesn't look anyone has been working on it recently. Dabomb87 (talk) 16:45, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 02:19, 25 June 2009 [5].
Review commentary
- Notified: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject France, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland , Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Theatre, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cricket, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Poetry, User talk:Saposcat, User talk:Yossarian.
FA from 2004, referencing/1c issues. Could use an image review for File:Brocquy Image of Beckett.jpg, File:Beckett-grave-paris.jpg and File:Sam beck 20euro gold Reverse.JPG. WP:LEAD is a bit short. Could use copyediting, pass for cites, overall. Cirt (talk) 06:21, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
On images, File:Beckett-grave-paris.jpg lacks requisite source information such as author (which from the minimal text, appears to be different from the uploader? But it's not clear.) File:Brocquy Image of Beckett.jpg should be tagged and deleted as copyvio (I'll get around to it today if someone doesn't hop on it sooner), as the author of the image did not specifically permit CCbySA2.5 licensing. The coin image... meh, it could be fine, but it needs a better use rationale. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 13:45, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Lead is incomplete. The page is not comprehensive enough with research (lacks education and development, discussion of early works). Not enough citations. Writing seems more personal essayish than encyclopedic - too much subjectivity. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:29, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Not a reason to defeature, but it could do with a cricket infobox, in line with all other first-class cricketers. --Dweller (talk) 11:08, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I think we could use some more detailed description of what is actually missing. I'm not convinced there is a problem with this article. For example, what is lacking an inline citation that requires one? What information is missing? I see your list, OR, but... those sections are in the article. So, I'm unclear what you mean.--Laser brain (talk) 22:37, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]- I've deleted the Brocquy image as copyright vio, and managed to find enough info to salvage Beckett's grave image. That just leaves the FUR for the coin image, which I added to but still think is rather weak. Unless someone objects I'll remove. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 23:14, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, copyrights, lead. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 02:00, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, per FA criteria concerns. Cirt (talk) 07:05, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, completely fails WP:FA criteria for referencing; lead also far too short, and the ELs need serious trimming. Certainly not featured quality. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 02:00, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist per concerns brought above. Requires complete overhaul. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 21:54, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist Weak lead; external link farm. DrKiernan (talk) 17:09, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist I have to agree and don't have the time or resources to fix it. ww2censor (talk) 17:53, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 03:45, 15 June 2009 [6].
FAR commentary
FA from 2004, referencing/1c issues. Article seems to have an essay-style tone to it. Could get away a bit from the primary sources and focus on secondary - a bit of reworking and overall referencing improvement throughout the article could help with this. Cirt (talk) 08:52, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Agree, especially with the 6th section title. Also to me the article seems a bit unfocused and disorganized. I'd suggest splitting by Supreme Court case interpretation and how the EPC stands on affirmative action, etc. --Andrewlp1991 (talk) 02:10, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I wrote it, and I agree. It 'is' too essayistic, I now see. Unfortunately, I don't have time at the moment to go back and change it. Thanks and good luck! Hydriotaphia (talk) 03:57, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, structure and organisation. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources.
- Delist, per FA criteria concerns. Cirt (talk) 05:56, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, FA concerns not addressed. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 20:36, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep pending more detailed explanation of the article's problems. I find it disturbing that a few generic sentences about the article's problems fermenting on this page with almost no attention can result in a delisting. --Laser brain (talk) 22:47, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 01:05, 22 June 2009 [7].
Review commentary
- Listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Astronomy/Article alerts; main editor vanished
Today I have improved a lot the number of references of this article, but it looks still so incomplete: no information about observation, about age and how to calculate it, and some sections are short (just make a comparison between this article and globular cluster). If you don't agree, close this review, but I remain on my opinion. :-) --Roberto Segnali all'Indiano 04:19, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment on first view referencing looks a little sparse. Should't be too hard to save though (?) Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:25, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Most paras have one cite. Do these account for the entire (or most) of the para? YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 00:52, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Suggested FA criteria concerns are comprehensiveness and citations. Joelito (talk) 23:03, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, per FA criteria concerns. Also not much done to improve article since FAR nom started. Cirt (talk) 11:11, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by Raul654 05:14, 8 July 2009 [8].
Review commentary
- Wikiprojects notified. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 04:19, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fails 1c. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 04:19, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I have notified Geogre, a primary contributor, and will be watching this too to see if I can help. Mike Christie (talk) 10:52, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll try to look in on this shortly. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:22, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- From comments on Geogre's talk page, he feels it meets 1c, so I'm not going to stick my nose into something so fraught with chances of just causing drama. I've got enough work to work on, thanks. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:44, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Question: Fails 1c? You mean it is not well-researched? If so, a pointer to where you think the research is lacking would be helpful for anybody who intends to work on it. Or is there a specific part of criterion 1c you believe it fails? Yomanganitalk 16:10, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I am fairly sure he is refering to the fact that the article has only one inline citation and not that many references overall. Spiesr (talk) 17:21, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- That may be (actually it has quite a few inline citations, although only one footnote), but I was hoping that YellowMonkey would add more than a two word rationale for what is essentially a request to delist some people's hard work. Yomanganitalk 23:42, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I am fairly sure he is refering to the fact that the article has only one inline citation and not that many references overall. Spiesr (talk) 17:21, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Current feature article standards essentially require every paragraph in an article the have multiple specific citations. Usally in the standard of footnotes like this <ref>Smith 2007, p. 1.</ref>. Modern featured articles like this one have extensive lists of citations in a refernces or notes section. This article contains only 1 item in its notes section. And while the article does have a few of citations of a different formatting in the text, which should look like this (Smith 2007, p. 1), there are not nearly enough of these for the article to pass criteria 1c and maintain its featured status. Spiesr (talk) 17:39, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll see if I can't dig up some sources and add some citations. Kafka Liz (talk) 10:52, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It might be a good start to reformat the in-line citations to harvnb template format, so they are clickable and lead to the appropriate reference in the references section. I am happy to do this, though I won't be able to insert the page numbers. I wouldn't insist on using footnotes at this time, given that Geogre deliberately used another system; the harvnb citations can easily be changed to footnotes later on if needed. Having the refs show as hyperlinks will also make it more apparent how much of the content is cited. Sound like a good idea? JN466 09:32, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. Although there's a couple of the harvard links I can't get to work; most jump down to the appropriate reference, but a couple don't. JN466 21:33, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Suggested FA criteria concern is citations. Joelito (talk) 23:02, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, per FA criteria concern cited above by YellowMonkey (talk · contribs) and Joelr31 (talk · contribs). Cirt (talk) 11:12, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist per Cirt. Not enough citations. FAR has been open for several weeks. JN466 15:19, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Let me note that very view of the sources you'd expect to see used have been used for this article. I have to say I don't think Wikipedia should have FAs for historical sources (chronicles, annals, and so on), that don't use such sources. As a result of this problem, the article comments meagerly on important critical issues, little about diplomatic, composition, "textual archaeology", and so on. It's a good article, don't get me wrong, but we expert more comprehensiveness from FAs these days. The required rewrite is so massive that it has to be delisted. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 05:30, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 01:05, 22 June 2009 [9].
Review commentary
- MilHist WikiProject and TomStar81 notified.
Article was promoted in 2006 with weak support. I have tried to fix a number of its deficiences, but feel it still falls way short of the required standard. My primary concern is around its coverage of the relevant material; my reasons are listed in more detail on the talk page. Socrates2008 (Talk) 09:23, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Is it possible to temporarily hold this good-faith FAR since TomStar81 is on a brief wikibreak for end-of-semester exams? (His notice on his user page says he will be out until 15 May.) Tom is very conscientious about whether older FAs meet newer, more strict requirements, having personally nominated several articles he was involved with for FAR. I know that Tom won't have a problem with an FAR in general, but I echo thoughts on the WikiProject Military history discussion page, that the timing of this FAR could be seen as unfair. Many thanks for the consideration. — Bellhalla (talk) 11:10, 2 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the note - no objections from me Socrates2008 (Talk) 11:54, 2 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I AM NOT BACK YET, but I am taking a little me time to unwind before finals start, and that leads me to this page. I am aware that this is an older FA, and that my name appears as the FAC man, but it should be noted here that I am not the one who worked on bringing the page up to FA standards, that would be Natebjones (talk · contribs), who at the time was thought to have left. Melchoir (talk · contribs) then asked if someone would be willing to help the article get to FA, and I volunteered. I am opent o the concept of the FAR/C to improve the article, but I want to make it clear before we start that I am unfamilar with just about everything in the article, so this one will be a greater challenge for me to improve since I am starting with one hand tied behind my back. TomStar81 (Talk) 21:48, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeah, I'm afraid I can't be much help here... good luck! Melchoir (talk) 05:00, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, I'm back, so lets do this thing! :) I need to know what needs addressed specifically, I'm going to venture a guess that the citations and such need updating, but specifical examples of what needs done would be apreicated. This moves to the top of my wiki-priorty list, so expect me to be watching this until the FAR concludes or until the FARC concludes, which ever happens last. TomStar81 (Talk) 07:13, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Cool - please take a look at the talk page of the article for initial details. Thanks Socrates2008 (Talk) 09:11, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
After trying my best to locate the books and other sources cited in the references section I have unfortunately come up largely empty handed, so I think at this point the best option is going to be to simply start from scratch and see where that leads me. You should start seeing some improvement sometime in the next seven days, although it may be touch and go for a while becuase I am still trying to get a few RL issues in order. It goes without saying though that I am thankful for the patients everyone has shown during the FAR. TomStar81 (Talk) 21:58, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, I'll do my best to help. Socrates2008 (Talk) 00:32, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Suggested FA criteria concerns are citations and comprehensiveness. Joelito (talk) 23:01, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist With everything else going on here at the moment I haven't had time to dive into this like I had hoped. Better it should be delisted then remain an FA in its condition. TomStar81 (Talk) 23:09, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, per FA criteria concerns. Cirt (talk) 11:13, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was kept by Raul654 03:03, 3 August 2009 [10].
Review commentary
I have split out Cane toad (Australia) since it was a large part of the article (and is also deserving of its own article). Having split out such a large amount of content a FAR is probably needed. I had also found a number of other issues that should not have occurred in a FA. There was a lack of punctuation and poor structure, and before I split out the information about cane toads in Australia the article lacked balance. I have corrects some of these issues. On a minor note I created the Cane toads dab page to get rid of the two links and explanations in the hatnote. Makes it look a little nicer! -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 09:15, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The article gets stubby towards the end. Single sentence sections are not good. Jay32183 (talk) 09:05, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't agree with the split. Many FAs are significantly larger than the two articles combined. I have proposed a remerger of Cane toads in Australia back into Cane toad before this goes on any longer. Discuss at Talk:Cane_toad#Merger_proposal. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:33, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Article size should not have anything to do with FA status. Splitting out Cane toads in Australia is surely a requisite for the ability to retain the FA status. The info I split out gave the article an imbalance toward Australian info - especially with the large "In popular culture" section. It is interesting to note that the new article has already been rated as C Class. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 06:08, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well of course it'd be rated C-class as it was well referenced and comprehensive. My point is that the rest of the article probably needed expanding, not the aussie bit needing contracting. There is also a guideline not to make radical changes to Featured Articles, and also some form of adequate summary should have been left on the article page. I am sad as I have seen many of these daughter pages receive little traffic compared with the mother article, even when the link is very obvious. As the article is now unstable, its Featured status should probably be revoked on the spot. Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:15, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The Aussie info is not contracted - it is simply moved. I suspect that the info about other countries is not likely to be expanded and the Aussies stuff may be of a higher notability (I will expand the summary at cane toad at some stage). I don't think the traffic difference is a valid argument. Cane toads is of interest to a wider sector than cane toads in Australia - and that is another reason to split the article. I was not aware of a FA guideline re splitting but I guess being bold can override a guideline. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 09:23, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well of course it'd be rated C-class as it was well referenced and comprehensive. My point is that the rest of the article probably needed expanding, not the aussie bit needing contracting. There is also a guideline not to make radical changes to Featured Articles, and also some form of adequate summary should have been left on the article page. I am sad as I have seen many of these daughter pages receive little traffic compared with the mother article, even when the link is very obvious. As the article is now unstable, its Featured status should probably be revoked on the spot. Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:15, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- In my opinion this FAR was a bit premature since the FAR was opened moments after the split was made. Discussion in the article's talk page would be better to avoid redundant discussions. Joelito (talk) 15:04, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The FA was not justified before the split IMHO. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 07:18, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The article was in overall better shape before the split. You've left the article with stubby, single sentence sections where previously there were fully fleshed out paragraphs in a single section. Although, Joelito's point was that there should have been a discussion about the split on the talk page prior to an FAR. Jay32183 (talk) 07:44, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The Aussie stuff was spread throughout the article and giving it its own article cleaned it up. The stubby section I left can be expanded and I will do it as soon as possible. I saw no need for a discussion on something that looked like it needed doing. It was hardly a case of being overly bold. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 11:08, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The article was in overall better shape before the split. You've left the article with stubby, single sentence sections where previously there were fully fleshed out paragraphs in a single section. Although, Joelito's point was that there should have been a discussion about the split on the talk page prior to an FAR. Jay32183 (talk) 07:44, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Now is not a good time to review this article, given that major changes to the article have been attempted in the last few days, but not completed, and there is a current discussion about the split/merge on the article's talk page. Apart from this, there has been little change to the article over the past year, so I think it's a bit premature to strip it of FA status on the basis that it's unstable. Doing that would set a very bad precedent, in my view. To avoid wasted effort, let's put this review on hold until the talk page discussions and any action resulting from them are complete. -- Avenue (talk) 09:06, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Agree with this. I had intended the original as a rhetorical question and hope it keeps FA. Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:24, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- According to the Featured article criteria "A featured article exemplifies our very best work and features professional standards of writing, presentation and sourcing." Even before I split out the Aussie section the article should not have fitted that description. WP can do much better than what was on offer in the article. Also, article stability is but one of the FA criteria. A few points to justify remove of the FA status (in no particular order):
- A lengthy hatnote that should have only been one link
- lack of punctuation
- Presence of redlinks
- A lengthy "in popular culture" section all about Australia yet the sections on other countries were very short and generally lacked references.
- Poor article flow in the "Introductions" section. It should at least have Level 3 headers for individual countries
- Unsourced statements since April 2008
- The Notes and References should be one section (I notice that the References header has since been removed. Not all the References are linked to the article text. It should therefore be in a Further reading section. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 11:08, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Agree on many points in the preceding - there needs to be more detail on the native range in the Distribution section, and the Poison section is small. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:13, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I think the refs are not linked to inlined refs as they predate a big move to inlining. So are probably relevant to the text. Hopefully, they can be accessed and we can determine which references what and help get the text inlined. I don't think a further reading section will eb required. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:15, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist for the following reasons:
- presence of redlinks
- references that could be inline rather than listed after the refs section
- lack of info on the introductions to the different countries
- Note that I had split out the info pertinent to Australia to the Cane toad (Australia) article. See the discussion at Talk:Cane toad#Merger proposal. I had also fixed a number of glaring reasons why the article should not have had a FA status. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 03:50, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: I am thinking probably Hold for the time being as from the discussion above, there appear to be a few issues left to resolve that have attention from editors that could potentially address them. I agree with Casliber (talk · contribs) that instead of spinning out material, it may have been best to instead expand the other subsections. However, there do appear to be some 1c issues that should be addressed. Cirt (talk) 07:15, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - I'm currently working through the article to address the referencing and comprehensiveness issues. It should take about a week to see that complete. On the plus side, there are sufficient references available to meet any 1c concerns. - Bilby (talk) 01:45, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments:
- In the description section, it's unclear to what the length is referring to in the first sentence: the male or female toad.
- The tadpoles' length mention needs an Imperial conversion.
- Toadlet size (in mm) needs an Imperial conversion.
- Snout-vent length needs an Imperial conversion.
- "Eat widely" is unclear ... is that area or the variety of their food?
- "The cane toad" and "cane toads" are used interchangably throughout the article. I'd suggest picking one style and sticking with it.
- It adds a bit of variety I guess, but as it isn't the same as using different common nouns or formats, but just a plural/singular is it a big problem? YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 02:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Done - I've changed most of the instances of "cane toads' to "the cane toad", as the former suggests more than one type of cane toad, while the latter is clearer. I've left "cane toads" only where the discussion seemed related to individual instances of the cane toad, rather than the species. - Bilby (talk) 03:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It adds a bit of variety I guess, but as it isn't the same as using different common nouns or formats, but just a plural/singular is it a big problem? YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 02:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I added a citation needed tag at the end of the predators section.
- Bilby got rid of the sentence YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 02:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Could you add a citation for the thought that it was introduced to "most Caribbean islands"?
- In Martinique, what does it mean that the toads were "successful"?
- It's a bad idea to start a sentence with a numeral, as in 1884.
- In Fiji, "the government of" what?
- How were toads used in human pregnancy tests? It's not mentioned until the New Guinea section, when it's thrown in casually, even though that prompts strong questions.
- It is explained in the "uses" section at the bottom. It's hard to fit it in the intros part without doubling up YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 02:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Done - I've added a little bit of context to the pregnancy testing reference in the New Guinea section, and extended the material in "Uses" for balance. (I found a really cool source, so it made me happy). - Bilby (talk) 04:43, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It is explained in the "uses" section at the bottom. It's hard to fit it in the intros part without doubling up YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 02:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- That's about it from me. Fix these, and I'll support its keep. JKBrooks85 (talk) 06:40, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- One final thing ... that last sentence of the lede seems a bit awkward. I don't understand the use of "farmers" since other people's pets also are apt to eat the toads, and livestock are herbivorous. JKBrooks85 (talk) 10:57, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Suggested FA criteria concern is comprehensiveness as a result of section split. Joelito (talk) 22:59, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Note Moving to FARC since no progress was observed to resolve the split. Joelito (talk) 22:59, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delist multiple citations needed. DrKiernan (talk) 17:04, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm on them. :) I'm marking missing ones as I go, but given the topic citations won't be a problem. There's sufficient, readily available material to source each statement, although it will take a few more days to be done. - Bilby (talk) 17:10, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Bilby has done a marvellous job on expanding the article, improving the breadth and depth YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 01:01, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not worried about the citation for Chaunus marinus, I can see that this name is used in more modern literature on cane toads. It's the identifications that confuse me. The rococo toad is given an unfamiliar Latin name, surely it should be Bufo paracnemis? I'm inclined to think that Schneider's toad is something else. I think this section is rather confused, and should be removed until something better can be written with verifiable sources. DrKiernan (talk) 14:18, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree - I've removed those sections, as they don't seem core and I've been unable to find any support for them in the literature. - Bilby (talk) 17:06, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - While I'll probably make a pass to ensure WP:MoS compliance, at this stage I think referencing and expansion should be pretty much done. Every claim has been referenced, and where possible I've double checked any existing references. - Bilby (talk) 17:06, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Close The single remaining "fact" tag is trivial. DrKiernan (talk) 08:15, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry - I had missed that fact tag. That's a tad embarrassing. It should be covered now. - Bilby (talk) 10:04, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Great job bringing article up to standard. I did a pass for MOS, and I think I got everything, except that the ecology, behavior and life history section needs conversions. Dabomb87 (talk) 16:18, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. I considered using the convert template, but found it read better if done by hand. - Bilby (talk) 03:12, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep/Close etc. Great work. Prose might need a little massaging but not a deal-breaker. Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:01, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm onto it. Yes I think the prose could be improved quite a lot. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 06:57, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Alternative text needed for the images. Dabomb87 (talk) 17:36, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. And thanks - I didn't realise that the wiki supported alt tags, and I'm really pleased to find out that it does. - Bilby (talk) 03:12, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hold for the moment. There's still a few things to clear up, but nothing major.JKBrooks85 (talk) 06:41, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. My comments have been addressed, and with a coterie of editors repairing other comments, I'm confident this article should remain featured. JKBrooks85 (talk) 10:56, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Meets FA standards, great job. Dabomb87 (talk) 15:39, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment There's one dead link. Dabomb87 (talk) 19:59, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Removed. DrKiernan (talk) 11:42, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep, and thank you Bilby. hamiltonstone (talk) 03:23, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The prose is mostly OK, but needs attention in quite a few places; I've done a little cleaning up. But I haven't fixed multi-bloopers like this: "... it was introduced to Puerto Rico in the early 20th century in the hope
thatit would be more effective against a beetle infestation that was ravaging the sugar cane plantations. It was, and following the economic success of the toad in negating the beetles ...". If this FA retained, I think the authors should locate copy-editors who will spruce it up. ... or now? Tony (talk) 10:56, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Did a round of full copyedit YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 07:42, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I will copyedit more this weekend. Awadewit (talk) 23:32, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I've done some copyediting now - it looks good to me. Awadewit (talk) 01:20, 2 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I will copyedit more this weekend. Awadewit (talk) 23:32, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Did a round of full copyedit YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 07:42, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Featured article removal candidates
- Place the most recent review at the top. If the nomination is just beginning, place under Featured Article Review, not here.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 02:05, 9 June 2009 [11].
FAR commentary
- Notified: WikiProject Volcanoes, WikiProject Iceland
OK, I saw that there is some activity on WP:Volcanoes, so might be a good time to spruce up the referencing. It has a total of 7 inline refs and an ugly tag that I cannot remove at the top. Should be relatively straightforward. I will tag (i.e. criterion 1c) and notify parties. Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:42, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- One of those nice volcano infoboxes would look cool. Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:58, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Done, although the infobox is actually from WP:MOUNTAINS. -- Avenue (talk) 18:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Image problems
- File:Heimaey before 1973.jpg isn't by the USGS. That's why when the USGS uses it, it say "Courtesy of Sólarfilma" in the caption. The copyright rests with the Icelandic company.
- File:Early stages of the 1973 eruption of Eldfell.jpg and File:Lava flow advances into Heimaey.jpg are by the late Svienn Eirikksen. The copyrights should rest with his estate, not with the USGS. DrKiernan (talk) 12:50, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'd add some concerns about accuracy and comprehensiveness, although these are hopefully fairly minor. For instance, the "third of all the basaltic lava" statistic seems wrong, concerns about placename translations expressed on the talk page have not been addressed, and the volcanological content seems a bit light. -- Avenue (talk) 01:56, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Suggested FA criteria concern are citations. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 02:28, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, per FA criteria concerns. Cirt (talk) 05:09, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, unaddressed FA criteria issues. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 20:37, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist inadequate citations; four entire sections are unreferenced. Maralia (talk) 22:25, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist per Maralia MacMedtalkstalk 22:02, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist (reluctantly) due to referencing issues, which is a shame. I can't address those and I'd hoped someone who knew the topic could save it. What do others think of the prose? Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:52, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 03:45, 15 June 2009 [12].
FAR commentary
FA from 2004, referencing/1c issues. Article seems a bit short, considering the popularity of the song, surely there must be more discussion of it in WP:RS/WP:V secondary sources. Also, lots of short paragraphs and one-sentence paragraphs throughout, could use copyediting. There is not much info in the article about musical composition, certainly not much that is sourced. Cirt (talk) 21:28, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Rodhullandemu
- First thoughts: Initial issues were (a) a {{cn}} tag on the original lyrics; these appear to have originated, as far as I can tell, from a factoid sourced to a poorly-written book, so for the time being, I've deleted that claim. (b) A deadlink to Guinness World Records.com, which I've resurrected from the wayback machine, but it doesn't substantiate the claim of 3000 cover versions, so I've corrected that; in particular, for a FA, the list of "eclectic" cover versions requires sourcing, and I've yet to find a reliable and definitive list. Rodhullandemu 22:37, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Have added a section on "Musical structure". Probably needs reviewing for style & against sources. Rodhullandemu 02:05, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Realist2
- A lot of the article is sourced by http://www.beatles-discography.com/ so those all need replacing.
- http://www.oocities.com/SunsetStrip/Palms/6797/songs/yesterday.html Needs replacing
- http://www.oocities.com/~beatleboy1/dba05help.html needs replacing
- done --Andrewlp1991 (talk) 05:04, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- done --Andrewlp1991 (talk) 03:17, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, comprehensiveness. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 02:32, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, per FA criteria concerns. Cirt (talk) 05:01, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Still a few dead links and unsourced parts, so removed YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 03:42, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 02:05, 9 June 2009 [13].
FAR commentary
Criteria WP:FACR for the rewiew: 1a (sometimes weasel-like prose), 1c (missing citations), 2 (e.g. "infinity - infinity" has only short "-" ), specifically 2a (lead too long).--Ioannes Pragensis (talk) 17:44, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I concur that the lead is too long. The rest will take a little more time to look at. It appears that the editors who bird-dogged this article as an FA and through its first real FAR have gone inactive. Athanasius • Quicumque vult 14:43, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Is there a reason that the newer FAR is listed as "archive1"? Athanasius • Quicumque vult 14:48, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It had to do with the new archiving system. I fixed it. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:53, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I took a quick look at the article and found some problems:
- Several paragraphs have zero citations. Some of those paragraphs really need citations.
- The article doesn't mention the crucial connection between the omnipotence paradox and the law of non-contradiction. See: Horn LR (2006). "Contradiction". In Edward N. Zalta (ed.). Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.
- The article doesn't make the important connection between the omnipotence paradox and monotheism. See: Baillie J, Hagen J. "There cannot be two omnipotent beings". Int J Philos Relig. 64 (1): 21–33. doi:10.1007/s11153-007-9152-7.
- The article doesn't mention that the omnipotence paradox is a standard argument for atheism. See: Grim P (2007). "Impossibility arguments". In Martin M (ed.). The Cambridge Companion to Atheism. Cambridge University Press. doi:10.1017/CCOL0521842700.013. ISBN 0521842700. This could be illustrated with File:Atheism1.svg, which is both a logo and a diagram of a variant the paradox.
- Likewise for agnosticism. See: Woods PA (2007). "From the middle out: a case for agnosticism". Sophia. 46 (1): 35–48. doi:10.1007/s11841-007-0008-5.
- I agree that the lead is too long. Also, it doesn't really summarize the body: it contains several notions (e.g., the quote from Titus) not in the body, and some important notions discussed at length in the body (e.g., types of omnipotence) are not mentioned in the lead.
- More illustrations are needed.
This article is clear and has good prose, but I'm afraid it'll take some work to fix these problems. Eubulides (talk) 22:42, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, prose, lead. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 02:36, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist as per my comments in the FAR commentary. The abovementioned problems remain, as no edits have been made to the article since then. Eubulides (talk) 04:51, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, per FA criteria concerns. Cirt (talk) 05:06, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, no significant progress so far.--Ioannes Pragensis (talk) 08:32, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, concerns have not been suitably addressed. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 20:41, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by Joelr31 22:55, 7 June 2009 [14].
Review commentary
The article fails criteria 1c, since most of the article lacks in-line citations. Arsenikk (talk) 12:16, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree, the citation is lacking for an article of its size. There is also an extremely large amount of broken wiki links for a featured article. The Locomotive section could be greatly enhanced by use of template box layouts, such as used for the locomotives on Virgin Trains. The citation and broken links problems are more critical however.81.111.115.63 (talk) 16:36, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This article also fails criterion 3:
- File:PGE timetable.JPG - This non-free image needs a stronger fair use rationale or needs to be removed. Why do we need to see this particular cover? What does it show visually that cannot be explained with words?
- File:Optimized image 44efede4.png - This non-free logo needs a stronger fair use rationale or needs to be removed. Why do we need to see this former logo?
- File:Bcrailway.png - This non-free logo needs a stronger fair use rationale or needs to be removed. Why do we need to see this former logo?
See this dispatch for help on non-free images. Awadewit (talk) 05:35, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, image copyright. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 01:16, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist Image and reference issues have not been addressed. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 17:03, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, per FA criteria concerns. Cirt (talk) 06:13, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, does not meet FA criteria. Arsenikk (talk) 18:56, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 00:49, 2 June 2009 [15].
Review commentary
- MilHist WikiProject notified
One of the early promotions before the vogue for inline citations. An unsourced quote and example farm can be easily dealt with by removal, but a more thorough tune-up should also be considered. DrKiernan (talk) 08:37, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Doing a little copyediting and MOS cleanup, but yes, citations sorely needed here. Maralia (talk) 04:57, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Suggested FA criteria concern are citations. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 05:14, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, per FA criteria concerns. Cirt (talk) 07:53, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, major sourcing problems.--Otterathome (talk) 17:19, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 00:49, 2 June 2009 [16].
Review commentary
- Notified: User_talk:Henry_Flower, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Thailand, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Southeast Asia, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rock music/Regional and national rock music taskforce.
FA from 2004, referencing/1c issues, could use a review of the images to see if the two free-use have appropriate documentation and if the fair-use image is appropriately used or is something that could be replaced by a free-use image, or simply described in the article's text. Cirt (talk) 07:52, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The article should follow a well defined transcription method for the many Thai words it contains. Preferred standard for Thai in wikipedia is Royal Thai General System of Transcription or RTGS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Woodstone (talk • contribs) 09:17, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Advocacy of your preferred transcription system is of course entirely legitimate, but it´s misleading to suggest that it is the standard on Wikipedia. For much discussion, see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Thailand#Romanization and the related drafts. In any case, there´s a lot more Lao and Isan here than Thai.
- As far as referencing goes, you can decide for yourselves whether it meets currrent FA requirements. ;) HenryFlower 13:41, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The two free images are fine. I'm not concerned by the fair-use one: it is a single frame comprising only one-twentyfifth of a second of running time, and it does illustrate the genre. DrKiernan (talk) 14:22, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, and diversity thereof (Miller is the author of Garland). Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 05:10, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, per FA criteria concerns. Cirt (talk) 07:51, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 00:49, 2 June 2009 [17].
Review commentary
- Notification of all relevant parties complete: Nominator and main contributor User:Haukurth, WikiProject Books, WikiProject Iceland, WikiProject Norse history and culture
1(c) - currently no inline citations. It could be accurate but harder to verify and inline citations are now part of criteria. (Background:It was promoted 4 years ago and has not been reviewed since.) Tom B (talk) 13:42, 2 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeah, I wrote it, and you're right that it isn't in the current Wikipedia style. I honestly don't really care that it doesn't have footnotes - it cites its sources very carefully, even if it's not to page numbers. Having those numbers would probably not make a lick of difference to your ability to 'verify' the accuracy of the article since you presumably don't understand Icelandic to begin with.
- Anyway, I'm fine with the article being demoted - I've learned a lot since I wrote it and I now think it's deficient in several ways (Wikipedia citation style being the least of these concerns). Haukur (talk) 15:31, 2 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Suggested FA criteria concern are citations and unspecified deficiencies not elaborated on by the author. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 05:15, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, per FA criteria concerns. Cirt (talk) 07:53, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 02:05, 9 June 2009 [18].
Review commentary
- WP Rock music, Artrush, and Fritz Saalfeld notified
Article was promoted in February 2006 when standards were far lower. Use of fair use images to depict a band automatically disqualifies it and it's far less comprehensive than other articles on similar subjects. Exxolon (talk) 15:44, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I dont see a problem re comprehensiveness; the band had a short life span. Ceoil (talk) 20:50, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Two of the non-free images definitely need to go. It is possible to get a free image of Gregg Alexander, with or without his trademark hat. Jay32183 (talk) 02:10, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Please check out the image talk pages here and here, as those concerns came up, and were addressed there, earlier. --Fritz S. (Talk) 08:26, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The first one I still say must go, your rationale is not acceptable. A free image can be created that adequately presents the same information. I was not talking about the group shot, but the shot from the music video. All it shows is Gregg Alexander and a free picture can be obtained. He's alive and not in hiding. He doesn't need a scheduled event, people can run into him on the street. His representation can be contacted. File:New Radicals Gregg Alexander.jpg and File:New Radicals Someday Well Know video.jpg can be replaced by free images. Or they can be removed; with the group shot we don't need a second or third image of just Alexander. Jay32183 (talk) 22:55, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Please check out the image talk pages here and here, as those concerns came up, and were addressed there, earlier. --Fritz S. (Talk) 08:26, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, copyrights. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 05:08, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment The copyright issue can probably be considered resolved since all but one of the copyrighted files has been deleted. Jay32183 (talk) 06:51, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, per FA criteria concerns. Cirt (talk) 07:52, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Uncited claims appear to include: "considered a relatively constant member" (reference given is not a neutral third-party); "well received by music critics...compared its funk and soul-influenced upbeat to the early work of Prince and Mick Jagger"; "received much media attention"; "mass media's excitement"; "fans immediately recognized". DrKiernan (talk) 15:21, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 00:49, 2 June 2009 [19].
Review commentary
FA from 2004, referencing/1c issues, lede needs work, copyediting needed throughout, lots of skimpy subsections with only a few sentences, lots of bullet points that don't look that great. Article was a promotion under the old FA "refreshing brilliant prose" system. Cirt (talk) 12:10, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Notified: User talk:Bryan Derksen, User talk:TUF-KAT, User talk:Kingturtle, User talk:Gentgeen, User talk:Stewartadcock, User talk:Robogun, User talk:Cimon Avaro, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Astronomy, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Astronomical objects, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Solar System. Cirt (talk) 12:16, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Images
- I'd cut File:W-preview.jpg; it's unnecessary to have a copyrighted image when there are free-use ones available. Also, I don't see where the author has given permission for its use.
- The animation of the comet orbiting the sun (File:Comet tails.gif) should slow down when its away from the sun and speed up when near the sun, also the size of the tail should depend on the proximity to the star.
- No sources for File:Comet wild 2.jpg or File:Comet borrelly.jpg (the uploader is banned).
- For images that are generated by commercial software, like File:Comet 2006 VZ13 linear orbital element example.jpg, should we use {{non-free software screenshot}}? DrKiernan (talk) 14:16, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Alright, I went through the references and made them all nice and tidy. Some of them I removed and replaced with {{cn}} tags, as they were dead links or page no one could access. Some others did not support the sentences they were attached to, etc... Now we can work on reffing what needs to be reffed, style issues, etc... Headbomb {ταλκκοντριβς – WP Physics} 04:10, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There are still a number of citation issues, for example the claim that comets are balls of tar is certainly astonishing to me. DrKiernan (talk) 13:40, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- As dark as tar, not tar.Headbomb {ταλκκοντριβς – WP Physics} 04:55, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, lead, prose, structure. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 05:08, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, per FA criteria concerns. Cirt (talk) 07:50, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was kept by Raul654 21:33, 13 August 2009 [20].
Toolbox |
---|
FAR commentary
Notice to the nominator: Please notify relevant parties (editors and projects) per step 6 of "Nominating an article for FAR; otherwise your nomination is incomplete".--Yannismarou (talk) 08:37, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Now notified all four wikiprojects, and the only two original main authors who are still active, NikoSilver (also the original nominator) and Francis Tyers. Anybody else? Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:04, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- No, I think that's fine!--Yannismarou (talk) 09:10, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Current problems with this article:
- Etymology section: was an amateurish and redundant mix-up of actual etymology and mythology. Partly cleaned up now, by importing text from elsewhere, but may need further scrutiny.
- History section: far too wordy and far too much detail. This is a complete fork of a "History of Macedonia" article. It needs to be reduced to those bits that are actually necessary for the article's task: making the terminology understood.
- Linguistics section: account of Ancient Macedonian is confused, making an ad-hoc distinction between "sister language" and "cousin [language]" (which doesn't exist in linguistic terminology), also stylistically awkward.
- "Ethnic Macedonian nationalism" section: unnecessary POV editorialising about "extremist ... nationalists". Overlong block quote, of a size that makes it a fair-use / copyright problem, should be removed, paraphrased and/or broken down into smaller units. Same for the overlong block quotes in the following section.
- Geography section: needs better maps/graphics to illustrate the various different boundary lines discussed
- Demographics section: problematic POV statement that "As a regional group in Greece, Macedonians refers to ethnic Greeks (98%, 2001)". This specifically Greek meaning (as opposed to one that covers all the ethnicities including the Greeks and the local minorities) seems barely existant in English.
Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:21, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Close.This is a WP:POINT nomination just on the eve of the Macedonia arbitration by an involved party, with a direct objective to undermine the featured status of this article, which elaborates on the ambiguity and complexity of the issue.--Avg (talk) 14:35, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Speedy close: The nominator is most obviously not acquainted with FA criteria, and the relevant procedures. Thus the above nomination fails to explain why the article in question should be de-featured. As I can also notice, another FAR nomination was filed, which was recently closed. In such a short time from the previous one, I see no grounds for the current FAR. In addition, taking into consideration the weird coincidence with the Macedonia arbitration (filed by me by the way), I am wondering if the reasons for this FAR are spurious. In any case, I would like to remind to the nominator that FAR is not a place for the resolution of content disputes among editors. You should thus raise your case in the article's talk page, and not here.--Yannismarou (talk) 08:31, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It's pretty obvious from my nomination which criteria are not met, isn't it? I said: "History section: far too wordy and far too much detail". That's obviously criterion 4 ("stays focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail"). I also said: "account of Ancient Macedonian is confused", and: "etymology section: was an amateurish and redundant mix-up". That's obviously criterion 1c ("well-researched"). I also raised concerns over copyright/fair use problems. That's the spirit (though not the letter) of criterion 3, which deals with "acceptable copyright status" and "non-free" content problems (it is ostensibly only talking about images, but of course NFC problems related to text are no less serious.). As for contacting people, how many would you deem necessary? As for the Arbitration case, it has nothing to do with it, except for the coincidence that I saw an arbitrator recommend reading this article, which I then went to do, surprisingly, for the first time, finding the article in the state it is. As for the previous review, it dealt exclusively with an entirely different set of concerns, and was speedy-closed on the grounds that those other concerns were baseless, so I dare say that's pretty irrelevant to the validity of the concerns I am raising. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:53, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fut, read step 6, and you'll see that it is pretty clear which are the parties you should notify. I do not intend to do your job!As far as to your remarks, let me just notice that, when a FAR nomination opens, the reviewrs do not focus solely on the nominator's arguments, but evaluate the article themselves. At the time, distinguished FAR reviewers concluded that the article adhered to FA criteria. You argue that, in the meantime, suddently something changed. Let's see; you may be correct, while I may be wrong. Nevertheless, I still believe that these are issues which are mainly content-focuses, and should be thus raised in the article's talk page; not here. I stand by my opinion that this nomination should be speedy close, and I keep my doubts about your weird timing despite your explanation.--Yannismarou (talk) 09:09, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]- No, the previous review including all the responses to it dealt exclusively with the issue of whether or not an article that dealt with the meaning of a word was legitimate in principle. Apart from that, the discussion only has vague assertions that the content was overall "good". Nobody ever dealt with concerns of the sort I'm raising. BTW, at the time of the original promotion, the overlong quotes (which are directly in contravention of any number of rules and guidelines) weren't yet there. But the etymology section used to be even worse back then. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:15, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Fut, if the problem is the quotes (I also do not like them, but this is not a reason strong enough to defeature an article), raise the issue in the talk page, and split or remove them, or turn them into proper prose. Whatever! I haven't yet read in detail the "Etymology" section, but I honestly don't see any major problems; in any case, I'll look closer to it. As far as the "history" section is concerned, I dont's see why both "Early" and "Modern History" do not adhere to WP:SS. They are indeed summaries of the main articles (which are much longer), and I think that this history summary is very useful for the reader, in order to grasp the theme. If you disagree, again go to the talk page, and say why the history section souldn't be like that. I continue! You say the "Ethnic Macedonian nationalism" sections is POV. Why? Because of the quote? I answered before to that. By the way, I also see a "Greek nationalism section", so isn't that balanced? If you disagree, and you think that there should only be a "Greek nationalism section" (?!), then again go to the talk page. In any case, I can't keep wondering: what are you doing here?--Yannismarou (talk) 09:35, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- No, the two sections are both bad. The one is tendentiously worded, and the other is non-existent, because if you take away the block quote there's nothing left. That's why I'm finding the block quote issue hard to fix, too hard for me to fix it without more time and appetite. If we wanted to take them out, we'd be left with an asymmetrically empty ruin. We'd have to re-write the whole section. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:42, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- No, if you take away the quotes (after you summarize them of course) in both sections, still more than something is left. Shorter sections, but they will continue to exist with good content. I see no empty ruins! By the way, I am not sure if the quotes from the Greek nationalism section should be removed. They are excellent summaries of the Greek nationalism and wrongdoings, dealing also with the use of nationalist and scornful terminology such as "Skopians". Yes, long but indeed very accurate and useful. I still fail to grasps the POV problems (probably you sole real argument concerning the article's FA status) concerning these two sections. Both sides' nationalisms are presented in a detailed and sourced way, and I think quite balanced. You do not like the quotes? This is another issue! So, I'll keep asking: what are you exactly doing here?--Yannismarou (talk) 10:06, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Quotes are non-free content. They must be removed unless the their precise wording is an object of critical analysis, on the same criteria we must remove non-free images that are not the object of such. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:17, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- What I'm doing here? I'm doing precisely what the FA process says I ought to be doing: discussing "possible improvements" with the aim "to improve articles rather than to demote them" in a situation where they would otherwise fall short of the FA criteria. What do you think I'm doing, please? Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:24, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- No, if you take away the quotes (after you summarize them of course) in both sections, still more than something is left. Shorter sections, but they will continue to exist with good content. I see no empty ruins! By the way, I am not sure if the quotes from the Greek nationalism section should be removed. They are excellent summaries of the Greek nationalism and wrongdoings, dealing also with the use of nationalist and scornful terminology such as "Skopians". Yes, long but indeed very accurate and useful. I still fail to grasps the POV problems (probably you sole real argument concerning the article's FA status) concerning these two sections. Both sides' nationalisms are presented in a detailed and sourced way, and I think quite balanced. You do not like the quotes? This is another issue! So, I'll keep asking: what are you exactly doing here?--Yannismarou (talk) 10:06, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- No, the two sections are both bad. The one is tendentiously worded, and the other is non-existent, because if you take away the block quote there's nothing left. That's why I'm finding the block quote issue hard to fix, too hard for me to fix it without more time and appetite. If we wanted to take them out, we'd be left with an asymmetrically empty ruin. We'd have to re-write the whole section. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:42, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Fut, if the problem is the quotes (I also do not like them, but this is not a reason strong enough to defeature an article), raise the issue in the talk page, and split or remove them, or turn them into proper prose. Whatever! I haven't yet read in detail the "Etymology" section, but I honestly don't see any major problems; in any case, I'll look closer to it. As far as the "history" section is concerned, I dont's see why both "Early" and "Modern History" do not adhere to WP:SS. They are indeed summaries of the main articles (which are much longer), and I think that this history summary is very useful for the reader, in order to grasp the theme. If you disagree, again go to the talk page, and say why the history section souldn't be like that. I continue! You say the "Ethnic Macedonian nationalism" sections is POV. Why? Because of the quote? I answered before to that. By the way, I also see a "Greek nationalism section", so isn't that balanced? If you disagree, and you think that there should only be a "Greek nationalism section" (?!), then again go to the talk page. In any case, I can't keep wondering: what are you doing here?--Yannismarou (talk) 09:35, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- No, the previous review including all the responses to it dealt exclusively with the issue of whether or not an article that dealt with the meaning of a word was legitimate in principle. Apart from that, the discussion only has vague assertions that the content was overall "good". Nobody ever dealt with concerns of the sort I'm raising. BTW, at the time of the original promotion, the overlong quotes (which are directly in contravention of any number of rules and guidelines) weren't yet there. But the etymology section used to be even worse back then. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:15, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It's pretty obvious from my nomination which criteria are not met, isn't it? I said: "History section: far too wordy and far too much detail". That's obviously criterion 4 ("stays focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail"). I also said: "account of Ancient Macedonian is confused", and: "etymology section: was an amateurish and redundant mix-up". That's obviously criterion 1c ("well-researched"). I also raised concerns over copyright/fair use problems. That's the spirit (though not the letter) of criterion 3, which deals with "acceptable copyright status" and "non-free" content problems (it is ostensibly only talking about images, but of course NFC problems related to text are no less serious.). As for contacting people, how many would you deem necessary? As for the Arbitration case, it has nothing to do with it, except for the coincidence that I saw an arbitrator recommend reading this article, which I then went to do, surprisingly, for the first time, finding the article in the state it is. As for the previous review, it dealt exclusively with an entirely different set of concerns, and was speedy-closed on the grounds that those other concerns were baseless, so I dare say that's pretty irrelevant to the validity of the concerns I am raising. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:53, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Agree more or less with what Fut.Perf states, it would certainly be good to paraphrase those large blockquotes. - Francis Tyers · 10:41, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Quotes in the Greek section already paraphrased. If you like my "job", I'll do the same with the Ethnic Macedonian nationalism as well. Of course, "it would be good"! I did not say the opposite. I just said and I insist that this is no argument for de-featuring.--Yannismarou (talk) 10:48, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for this. But for my taste that's still a good deal too long and wordy. In fact, your summary of Danforth repeats things that I'm sure the article is already saying elsewhere (e.g. that Greeks say "Skopje"), and it's generally just following the progression of ideas too slavishly. I think this could easily be cut back further to no more than half the size. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:57, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Updating: Possibly, but there are definitely no copyright problems now (and I believe no POV problems as well). "For my taste", as I said above, this long expose is not necessarily wrong. There may be some repetitions, but sometimes this is inevitable in an encyclopedic article. And I am not sure it is treated before in the article why Greeks say "Skopje" or "Skopjans". And, even if it is, it is this sections which provides the necessary in-depth analysis. So, I am not sure it should be trimmed.--Yannismarou (talk) 11:04, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The other section paraphrased as well. "Extreme" POV terms removed; references to the language trimmed (they look to me as the standard ethnicMac position, and no "nationalism"); shorter quotes fully in accord with WP:QUOTATIONS kept. Any further real FA concerns?--Yannismarou (talk) 11:23, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- And, by the way, any (serious) criticism I hear until now about the article is a classic {{sofixit}} case.--Yannismarou (talk) 11:29, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- No, it isn't because the problem of the overlong history section concerns a radical change to the whole scheme and scope of the article, which I would neither want to push through without prior discussion, nor do I have the time and inclination to fix it. I just feel that it isn't FA stuff. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:15, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- "I just feel that it isn't FA stuff" is not good enough Fut. When the article was promoted and kept the overlong history section existed. Unfortunately, my concerns about the reasons this FAR was initiated are reinforced by the vagueness of your arguments. In any case, even under these circumstances, I am happy to see you at last at a FA-related page. We both made our cases; let's see what other experienced reviewers shall say.--Yannismarou (talk) 13:31, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, when it was promoted the history section was a lot more concise. That old version was actually quite readable [21]. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:38, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, you are only partly correct (again!). I now checked it in detail, but the longer version existed indeed when it was kept. The only serious difference I see comparing the current version, and the version of the article when it was promoted, it is the first quite long and uncited paragraph of "Early History". Personnaly, I won't disagree to remove it (and I may even do it per BRD). Now, the rest of the two history sections have minor differences. Yes, some minor details have been added, and the bullets have gone, but the focus remains on the terminology (with the exception I repeat of the first paragraph of the first sub-section). In any case, a problematic paragraph is not a reason strong enough to defeature an article.--Yannismarou (talk) 13:46, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I think it would go a long way if we could get the "early history" passage back to the way it was around the time it was featured. I can try and find when the expansion took place and identify the best prior version. As for the thing I mentioned initially about needing better maps, I seem to remember we once had one where different versions of "geographical Macedonia" from the 19th century were compared. Perhaps we can exchange that for the one historical map we have in the geography section now? Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:32, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, you are only partly correct (again!). I now checked it in detail, but the longer version existed indeed when it was kept. The only serious difference I see comparing the current version, and the version of the article when it was promoted, it is the first quite long and uncited paragraph of "Early History". Personnaly, I won't disagree to remove it (and I may even do it per BRD). Now, the rest of the two history sections have minor differences. Yes, some minor details have been added, and the bullets have gone, but the focus remains on the terminology (with the exception I repeat of the first paragraph of the first sub-section). In any case, a problematic paragraph is not a reason strong enough to defeature an article.--Yannismarou (talk) 13:46, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, when it was promoted the history section was a lot more concise. That old version was actually quite readable [21]. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:38, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- "I just feel that it isn't FA stuff" is not good enough Fut. When the article was promoted and kept the overlong history section existed. Unfortunately, my concerns about the reasons this FAR was initiated are reinforced by the vagueness of your arguments. In any case, even under these circumstances, I am happy to see you at last at a FA-related page. We both made our cases; let's see what other experienced reviewers shall say.--Yannismarou (talk) 13:31, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- No, it isn't because the problem of the overlong history section concerns a radical change to the whole scheme and scope of the article, which I would neither want to push through without prior discussion, nor do I have the time and inclination to fix it. I just feel that it isn't FA stuff. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:15, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Hey I found it. It's pretty good, I think, only that it would be even better if it also showed the modern country boundaries for comparison.
- Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:35, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Agreed. Added.--Yannismarou (talk) 21:54, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, balance, comprehensiveness, clarity. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 00:57, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delist, per FA criteria concerns. Cirt (talk) 20:21, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Can you be a bit more specific, so that I can try to address your concerns?--Yannismarou (talk) 13:44, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- 1c issues throughout. If you like I can tag these parts of the article with {{fact}}, so it is more clear where the article is lacking. Cirt (talk) 19:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd appreciate that.--Yannismarou (talk) 20:05, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Added some. Cirt (talk) 06:40, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. 3 out of 10 gone. Give me a couple of days to go through the remaining ones.--Yannismarou (talk) 16:56, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- 2 or 3 still left I think.--Yannismarou (talk) 00:12, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. 3 out of 10 gone. Give me a couple of days to go through the remaining ones.--Yannismarou (talk) 16:56, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Added some. Cirt (talk) 06:40, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd appreciate that.--Yannismarou (talk) 20:05, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. One tagged sentence which for me was not accurate enough, it was removed. In all the other cases sources provided.--Yannismarou (talk) 23:16, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. It seems by the discussions above that many of the major concerns have been resolved. Everything now looks to be cited to reliable sources and it presents a clear overview of the subject. The maps are clear, and the history section has been pared down to a version that the original FAR nominator seems happy with. I'm not a content expert here, so I'm not best placed to judge what exactly might still be POV or undue weight; for that, it might be worth getting the nominator to revisit. But in most other respects the article seems strong enough to keep. The prose could do with a light brush here and there (e.g. "Loring Danforth, a professor of anthropology at Bates College asserts that ethnic Macedonian nationalists, who are concerned with demonstrating the continuity between ancient and modern Macedonians, deny that they are Slavs and claim to be the direct descendants of Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians"), but not to an extent worth delisting over; I advise badgering a good copyeditor to give it some TLC to be sure. Any remaining content issues should be minor enough now that taking them to the talk page first would be the prudent course next time. Steve T • C 12:38, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I think the most immediate concerns have been met – the biggest one being the overlong history section. I think there are still a few details that deserve tweaking, and I'm not overall entirely happy with the general impression of wordiness – I do believe the whole thing could be slimmed down quite considerably, but I haven't got the time and energy for it now, so at present I have no objections against keeping it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:33, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. Some prose polishing would help indeed, but I agree with Steve that the problem is not to an extent worth delisting over. Fut. has an excellent grasp of the English language, and, it would really be helpful, if he could offer some copy-editing, when he fings time.--Yannismarou (talk) 20:32, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- YM asked me to comment on the sources here.
- Need publisher and year for "Rostovtseff, History of the Ancient World, ii, 78
- Fixed.--Yannismarou (talk) 23:34, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Page numbers missing on a number of print sources, including current refs 10, 11, 12, 19, 37
- Sources replaced or supplemented.--Yannismarou (talk) 00:18, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Current ref 17 (http://www.servat.unibe.ch/law/icl/mk00000_.html) lacks a publisher and what makes this a reliable source?
- Publisher added: University of Bern.--Yannismarou (talk) 00:52, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Current ref 24 (http://www.mymacedonia.net/aegean/aegean.htm) lacks a publisher and what makes this a reliable source?
- It is reliable for the purpose it serves. It is an example of irredentist site using the terms in question.--Yannismarou (talk) 00:46, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- What makes http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=rup a reliable source?
- It is Ethnologue!--Yannismarou (talk) 00:18, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- You've mixed up order on the web references. You link to the publisher and give the title of the page in italics afterwards, which is just... very very very odd. Normally you link the title of the page and give the publisher of the site in plain text afterwards. And you don't do it ALL the time, sometimes you do the normal method. You really should pick one method and stick to it for consistency.
- I think I fixed them; at least most of them.--Yannismarou (talk) 17:57, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- http://uranus.ee.auth.gr/new/eng/macedonia.old/kofos deadlinked
- Fixed; author and publisher added.--Yannismarou (talk) 18:19, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- As did http://www.florina.org/html/2003/2003_osce_albania.html
- Replaced.--Yannismarou (talk) 18:37, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- And http://www.makedonija.info/info.html gave me a "Suspected malware site" alert.
- Replaced.--Yannismarou (talk) 18:37, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Current ref 79 http://makedonija.name/ is lacking a publisher and what makes it reliable?
- Added. As previously, it is an example of what the article says: an example of a history version denying any historical relatedness to the Bulgarians.--Yannismarou (talk) 00:52, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Current ref 80 http://www.macedoniainfo.com/ lacks a publisher and what makes it reliable?
- Linked a small specialized page. Again, it is an example of Bulgarian irredentism.--Yannismarou (talk) 00:58, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- http://www.oocities.com/bulgarmak/ dealinked
- Removed, and sentence cited with a better source, more accurately representing its content.--Yannismarou (talk) 17:43, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- A number of the non-English websites lack publishers also. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:45, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I think I fixed most of these websites.--Yannismarou (talk) 17:57, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Need publisher and year for "Rostovtseff, History of the Ancient World, ii, 78
- Dead reference link
- Fixed.--Yannismarou (talk) 23:28, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Ref consistency Inconsistencies in date formats, of the language tag, and the pp. etc whether to use a space or a full stop. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 03:17, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Should be fixed, along with a host of other MOS niggles. Dabomb87 (talk) 16:12, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- MoS is mostly something made up in school one day; we have policy on that.
- The substance of the article has improved, distinctly (if marginally), since this FAC was started. The areas about which I know something are really better; at least the vacuous eponym Makednos is not being asserted as history. (It would be nice if we could phrase the likelihood that Ancient Macedonian was Indo-European in such a way as not to assert the debatable claim it was Greek.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:35, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Should be fixed, along with a host of other MOS niggles. Dabomb87 (talk) 16:12, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep MOS, prose, and content issues seem to be mostly resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 15:19, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep, changed to Keep, positive improvements to article since nom. Cirt (talk) 22:37, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Wait A couple issues remain. There are several dead links, dabs, and the images in the templates need alt text. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:34, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Besides the several remaining dead links,[22] also use of tertiary sources are not not considered "high quality" references as 1c madates, such as http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/354264/Macedonia and http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761555941/Macedonia.html#p6. The references need to be checks for quality. —Mattisse (Talk) 01:07, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The first of these is a single use (for the population of "Aegean Macedonia"); this is the sort of thing for which the Britannica is a quality reference, and which is unlikely to be readily sourceable elsewhere - since Aegean Macedonia is nobody's statistical unit. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:40, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I can see only two dead links, and two dabs; one of the dead links (CIA Factbook) had been fixed by me days ago; I don't know what is going on with it. I'll fix them again later tonight, and I'll also try to further back the two sources mentioned by Matisse, especially the second one, which is indeed problematic.--Yannismarou (talk) 09:00, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I had fixed most of the dead links a couple days ago, which is why there are only two now. Dabomb87 (talk) 13:42, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks! I removed one dead link, and the "symprwtevousa" thing per my comment in the edit summary. I also provided another source for the administrative organization of Greek Macedonia.--Yannismarou (talk) 08:20, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It's in Danforth's book, which should probably be used more widely. Danforth implies that it's unofficial, and lists it, like the Vergina flag, in his discussion of Greek Macedonian nationalism - which he seems to view as almost a separate movement from Greek nationalism. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:54, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- No problem with that. But do you have the relevant page(s)? The problem with google book is that it offers you a partial reading, and, if you don't find quite fast what you want while searching, you suddenly come along a polite announcement that unfortunately you can no more see any other page from the rest of the book!--Yannismarou (talk) 08:17, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I meant to. It's p. 83 in the Google Books edition, paperback; I think I've added the hardcover to the list of references. The link should now work better. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:04, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks! I removed one dead link, and the "symprwtevousa" thing per my comment in the edit summary. I also provided another source for the administrative organization of Greek Macedonia.--Yannismarou (talk) 08:20, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. Well written; sorry to be lazy, but I'm commenting only WRT 1a. Pity if this can't be saved. Tony (talk) 10:37, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Citation 101 is showing up as dead. JKBrooks85 (talk) 07:54, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- True. Now that you draw my attention to that passage, I'd like to question the whole structure of the double notes system: a separate set of footnotes numbered "N-1", "N-2" etc., which contain additional content and in turn point to other, normal footnotes for referencing. For one thing, this strikes me as highly non-standard in formal terms; but additionally, this material is also rather questionable in content terms. These notes seem to have been used systematically as a way to push borderline OR material of a speculative nature out of the main body of the text. All this speculation about what is "offensive" to whom should either be integrated in the main text – if we are confident about the sourcing – or removed. Note N-1 is pure OR (citing a primary source and drawing interpretative conclusions from it); N-2 is drawing interpretative conclusions from two sources (one of them dead) by way of novel synthesis; N-3 is a redundant re-statement of the Macedonia naming dispute and as such redundant with the section on "politics"; N-4 is entirely unsourced speculation; N-5 has more or less acceptable sourcing, but could easily be integrated in the main text. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:43, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The distinction between notes for citation and notes for commentary is not novel; this is the original divergence between footnotes and endnotes. In Wikipedia, compare the FA Pericles. I don't use it myself, but it is permitted by WP:FOOTNOTE and seems well-intentioned. PMAnderson 22:43, 2 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I regret disagreeing with FP on this, but this seems ungrounded. N-1 describes a primary source; that cannot be pure OR if the book exists. (If it doesn't, we have much more serious problems.)
- N-2 contains an assertion that Pirin Macedonia has been used by Bulgarians, but some Bulgarians now find it Republican propaganda. I see no synthesis, although I wouldn't mind breaking this up into two assertions.
- N-3 is a statement of the Greek POV, from an official source. If FP wants to break this up, fine - but describing the various POVs here is the point of this section of the article, and I see nothing wrong with doing so in the parties' own words. In text it might be undue weight; but down here?
- N-4 is unsourced, but asserts that FYROM can be offensive to both sides (extreme Greeks object to the use of Macedonia at all). This seems obviously to be the case; we have anons replacing FYROM with Vardaroscopia, don't we; but I'll see if Danforth says so.
- N-5 could be incorporated, but then we would lose the quote. Why? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:57, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- True. Now that you draw my attention to that passage, I'd like to question the whole structure of the double notes system: a separate set of footnotes numbered "N-1", "N-2" etc., which contain additional content and in turn point to other, normal footnotes for referencing. For one thing, this strikes me as highly non-standard in formal terms; but additionally, this material is also rather questionable in content terms. These notes seem to have been used systematically as a way to push borderline OR material of a speculative nature out of the main body of the text. All this speculation about what is "offensive" to whom should either be integrated in the main text – if we are confident about the sourcing – or removed. Note N-1 is pure OR (citing a primary source and drawing interpretative conclusions from it); N-2 is drawing interpretative conclusions from two sources (one of them dead) by way of novel synthesis; N-3 is a redundant re-statement of the Macedonia naming dispute and as such redundant with the section on "politics"; N-4 is entirely unsourced speculation; N-5 has more or less acceptable sourcing, but could easily be integrated in the main text. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:43, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid I maintain my objections. Note N-1 isn't just "describing" a primary source; it is very explicitly interpreting it ("Contextually, this observation indicates [...]"), without the guidance of a reliable secondary source. That's the very definition of OR. N-2 clearly "synthesises" the two assertions, and again interprets the result ("..., thus,..."), without guidance from a reliable secondary source regarding the notability of the claims and the representativity of the primary sources exemplifiying them; moreover, the last part of the claim ("many people in the country also think...") is entirely unsourced. My objection about N-3 is not so much about its content, but about the fact that it duplicates something that already has its own section in the body of the text, the "politics" section. – The more I think of it, the more I am also generally dissatisfied with the whole idea of having such footnotes dedicated to the topic of what might be "offensive" to whom. It smacks of context disclaimers, which we don't do. Either the "offensive" nature of this or that term is notable enough to be made an explicit object of sourced analysis; then it can and should go into the body text; or else it should simply be ignored. – Finally, about the issue of double footnote systems, you may well be right about wiki precedents, but still, in half a lifetime of academic reading I cannot remember having ever seen anything in print that does something similar. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:25, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I read it differently. This is an international dispute; people may well want to know what words and terms are causes of offense in that dispute. These are facts, and non-trivial facts, about the dispute; as useful as other articles about ethnic slurs.
- The argument that we should pussyfoot around offensive language on this matter has just been rejected by ArbCom; we were both there. That should suffice. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:58, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The closest parallels I can think of in academic publishing are book-length; but it is not uncommon to move long notes to the end of the volume, and keep the citations on the page. If I run across one before this is resolved, I'll note it here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:58, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Compare Zimmern's Greek Commonwealth or on a much larger scale, the two dozen appendices to Tarn's Greeks in Bactria and India.
- But I cannot address FP's complaints about what these imply, because I don't see the implications myself; if he wants to modify them while keeping the (non-synthesized) content, I would like to see the result. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:17, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was kept by Joelr31 22:53, 7 June 2009 [23].
FAR commentary
- Listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Astronomy/Article alerts; main editor vanished
This article has very fiew citation and is not so complete; some sections need an improvement, expecially about the origin. Furthermore, a concise explanation of the late stages of the regions is needed. --Roberto Segnali all'Indiano 10:41, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I translated this article to spanish wikipedia and made it a good article there, the spanish one is a little bit larger and referenced, so it would be a good source to make this one better. Locos ~ epraix Beaste~praix 03:38, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Suggested FA criteria concern is citations. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 01:32, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Citations have improved somewhat since the start of FAR, and I'll try to help with it more during this week. Random astronomer (talk) 10:22, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I added some new source and will add some more. Ruslik (talk) 11:55, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, per FA criteria concerns. Cirt (talk) 12:35, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep per Ruslik's work. –Juliancolton | Talk 04:50, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Cite for the Herschel quote?
- Perhaps the details of Russell's and Bok's seminal papers could be given?
- I wonder if there should be a cite for comments like "thought to contain"?
- There is some repetition of points from the end of the "Observations" section at the end of the "Origin and lifetime" section, though neither one looks out-of-place particularly. DrKiernan (talk) 12:41, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delist, the work done is not enough: it's good adding references, but the article needs an improvement on large-scale. Quoting Cirt. --Roberto Segnali all'Indiano 04:25, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]- Ok, but it's important not to forget this article... --Roberto Segnali all'Indiano 09:03, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Currently all statements (except some minor) in the article are cited. I also expanded the lead, which now satisfies FA criteria. I think the article may be kept as FA. Ruslik (talk) 16:52, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I finished. The article can be definitely kept now. Ruslik (talk) 08:13, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep, 1c issues have been addressed IMO. Good work Ruslik! Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 20:45, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"thought to contain many times as much matter as would be needed to create a planetary system like that of the Milky Way." The Milky Way is a galaxy rather than a planetary system. DrKiernan (talk) 09:20, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Clarified. Ruslik_Zero 09:55, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. Just one problem now: File:Rosette Nebula dss2.jpg is nominated for deletion [24]. I recommend removing the image for now, until the deletion request is resolved. DrKiernan (talk) 10:00, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep: problems raised are addressed. DrKiernan (talk) 12:43, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. Just one problem now: File:Rosette Nebula dss2.jpg is nominated for deletion [24]. I recommend removing the image for now, until the deletion request is resolved. DrKiernan (talk) 10:00, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- There are repetitive words from higher in the heading hierarchy in several section headings, per WP:MSH. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:08, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 03:46, 26 June 2009 [25].
Review commentary
- Notifications: Alasdair, WP Films (Chinese task force), WP Hong Kong, WP Comedy.
The article has no information on critical reception outside of the US, which I have already pointed out at the talkpage and by placing a banner in the article. I have also previously tried to get the attention of primary contributor Alasdair. To me it seems like this falls somewhere between comprehensiveness and neutrality. I believe that a film FA should have at least a minimum of information about critical reception in Hong Kong, and possibly other markets where the film has been successful.
Peter Isotalo 11:59, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I have never contributed significantly on film articles - do you know what are some reliable sources for critical reviews and reception of non-US or Asian/Chinese movies? Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 17:39, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't know this specific topic, but I would imagine that major newspapers is a good place to start.
- Peter Isotalo 18:19, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- You said "the article has no information on critical reception outside of the US", and that's false. That section mentioned the box office result and awards received in Hong Kong. So the tag of "not representing a worldwide view of the subject" shouldn't even be there in the first place. OhanaUnitedTalk page 02:49, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Critical reception is as far as I understand reviews, not commercial results and awards.
- Peter Isotalo 06:31, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- You said "the article has no information on critical reception outside of the US", and that's false. That section mentioned the box office result and awards received in Hong Kong. So the tag of "not representing a worldwide view of the subject" shouldn't even be there in the first place. OhanaUnitedTalk page 02:49, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to do something about it, but I have real life issues to deal with at the moment. Ask someone else please.--Alasdair 13:20, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Suggested FA criteria concern is comprehensiveness/balance. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 02:46, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep, the FAR nominator indeed raises a valid concern that certainly should be addressed and dealt with in more depth at the article's talk page, but the article is of a high quality and well-sourced, and this isn't something worth losing its FA status over, IMHO. Cirt (talk) 10:19, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Weak keep. I basically agree with Cirt, without denying that Peter has a point, and the section in question should be improved.--Yannismarou (talk) 14:47, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. A tiny and trivial section shouldn't interfere with the big picture. OhanaUnitedTalk page 04:03, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I filed this FAR hoping that my comments about the bias would be amended quickly, not that it would linger here for several weeks. I guess we might as well close this now as long. I'm satisfied as long as no one removes the tag in the article until it's properly amended. Peter Isotalo 09:20, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- On the other hand, the purpose of FARC is to settle such issues, and keep the high level of the FAs. Thus if we close the FAR keeping the tag at the same time (which means that no improvement was made) are we doing our job properly?--Yannismarou (talk) 13:40, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I think an RFC is needed to hurry things up YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 23:51, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The reception section looks balanced to me, with some positive and some negative comments ascribed to named critics, one of whom is from Hong Kong and two of which are American. I've added two references to British reviews, which parrot the comments already in the section. DrKiernan (talk) 09:10, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist. This article has not been checked for MOS issues. I found WP:ACCESS, WP:MOS#Captions punctuation issues, WP:MOS#Images, left-aligned images under third-level headings, WP:MOSNUM issues, MULTIPLE missing publishers in the citations, empty parameters in cite templates that could be cleaned out, so I stopped there. Concerned about all of these keeps when there are still things to be addressed. There are also prose issues: from a non-gamer, what the heck is "A MMO 2D Side-scrolling Fighter Game ..." ? Do others really think this prose is FA level? "Two-thirds of the time were spent shooting the fighting sequences." When publishers aren't even provided, has reliability of sources been reviewed? Tools added: several dabs and multiple dead links also need attention. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:34, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments - Sandy asked me to comment, so these were the concerns I noted. What makes http://www.imediaconnection.com/content/6581.asp a reliable source for the information that the movie developed a cult like following and that it was the highest grossing foreign language film in the United States in 2005? Three deadlinks in the refs. What makes http://www.movieweb.com/news/NEa2riad0SBYdc reliable? What makes http://www.soundtrackcollector.com/catalog/soundtrackdetail.php?movieid=70817 reliable? Whether this is worth a keep or a delist, I don't know. There were indeed a number of refs lacking publisher information, also. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:51, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist. This is a pretty good article, but not one that meets the current Featured article criteria, specifically 1a (prose), 1b (comprehensiveness) and a little 1c (quality of sources). The sourcing issues, as described by Ealdgyth above, are likely the easiest to fix; it shouldn't be too hard to find alternative sources that, for example, list the film as a cult favourite in Western markets. Similarly, should someone have the time to work on this, the prose and manual of style issues can perhaps be tackled well enough to give it a pass. However, I find myself agreeing with the nominator that there is a huge gap in the article's coverage; how a film was perceived, by reviewers and audiences alike, is a major—not "tiny and trivial"—part of a film article's makeup; how the film ("the highest grossing in the history of Hong Kong") was perceived in its primary territory is a chief among the information that should be included in such a section. If there was an indication that the issue was going to be worked on, it wouldn't be such a big deal, but as the original nominator is currently inactive, and with a lack of editors able to source reliable information from the primary market, the gap will remain for some time yet. I have several other concerns with the article, but to avoid clogging up this FAR page, I've listed them at Talk:Kung Fu Hustle#Review. Issues include original research and synthesis, prose complaints, MOS issues (as described by Sandy above) and out-of-date information. Perhaps few of these alone would be enough to warrant a delist, but cumulatively they point to an article that needs an overhaul before it can be considered an example of "Wikipedia's best work". All the best, Steve T • C 10:45, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Leaning de-list I've only read parts of the article, but I too have concerns not only with 1b but with 1a. The comments above about the quality of sources seem troubling. Not having any information on the critical reception (other than awards) in its home country seems quite odd, even if such a section would probably only be a paragraph. Imagine an article on a Hollywood movie that focused solely on non-American reception. Also missing is any discussion of how the story/script evolved. "Chow's first priority was to design the main location of the film..." Really? Some odd prose throughout as well. "Many of the props and furniture in the apartments were antiques from all over China." OK, great, but why? The all too common problem of describing the production process without digging deeper into the motivation behind it (i.e. how does it serve what they were trying to achieve in the moving). "Yuen managed to take seemingly outdated wuxia fighting styles like the Deadly Melody and Buddhist Palm and recreate them on the screen with his own imagination." "Managed to"? Also, the first half (the focus on "outdated") does not contrast with the second half (recreation on the screen). And why "with his own imagination"? What does that mean? "In spite of the film's success, Yuen Wah worried that nowadays fewer people practice martial arts." Again, quite a disconnect between the two thoughts. "Having lost the Taiwanese film market in the late 1980s following a visit to China, he switched to doing business." Wuh? "Doing business"? "Having been asked whether she wanted to have any dialogue in the film, she decided not to speak so as to stand out only with her body gestures." Asked by whom? Context? What is this trying to say? TwilligToves (talk) 11:28, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Removed because of combination of OR, prose and citations. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 03:45, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was removed by Raul654 03:24, 3 August 2009 [26].
Review commentary
- WikiProjects notified.
Fails 1c. Very few citations. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 01:19, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Wow. I don't see why this article passed in the first place. Hopefully the sources are in the article and the footnotes just haven't been added. I might look into it later. --Al Ameer son (talk) 02:30, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The grammar part does enumerate some structural peculiarities of Aramaic, but it does not pin down the existing oppositions and their evolution into each other within grammaticalization. It does not say anything about syntactic patterns, constructions, information structure.
- The phonological part doesn’t address synchronic phonological processes that might often be observed in individual varieties, but is restricted to the sound inventory.
- Next to no in-line citations.
- Looks like B class. The content seems to be slightly better, not yet sufficient for GA, while the in-line references lean more towards C class. G Purevdorj (talk) 09:27, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I wrote the original article and got it to featured status a few years ago. The article gained featured status long before Wikipedia had any decent form of referencing. Most of the historical part of the article is based on the overview by Klaus Beyer, which is mentioned as a general reference. When the article gained featured status, the main concern was with its length rather than its references. For that reason, some sections, like phonology, were kept short. If I could have a list of specific practical issues with the article, I can improve it pretty quickly. I feel it is far better to look for ways to improve articles rather than bureaucratic reclassification. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 12:20, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I guess at least every paragraph must have a reference, and more where required, including page numbers (maybe with an exemption for lexicons?!). The number of books given as references should exactly be those that were quoted in the article.
According to Wikipedia:Splitting#Article size, the size is maybe a bit large, but it is still considerably smaller than the FAs Mayan languages and Turkish language and the GA Japanese grammar, so I hope length will not be of concern right now.
If the others agree with that, I would suggest giving some more details about the function of voice, word order and its functions and the development of the aspect system. The expression of modality would be worthwhile as well. I don’t get the state thing as well. G Purevdorj (talk) 13:34, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I think the grammar section is severely lacking in information, presentation and sources. It doesnt give any kind of feeling for what is typical of aramaic in comparison with other semitic languages. I would vote delist on this issue alone.·Maunus·ƛ· 17:01, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Suggested FA criteria concern is citations. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 04:03, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, per FA criteria concerns. Cirt (talk) 00:44, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, sourcing issues have not been addressed. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 02:11, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Hold on — I have asked for a little time to update this article and don't appreciate this being pushed through. This takes time to build, but a moment to tear apart. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 11:29, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Articles that meet the FA criteria are kept as featured articles; articles that don't are delisted. It's on the community to make sure articles meet current FA criteria. If you want to bring an article back to FA status, then make your intentions clear. You announced your plans to refine this article two weeks ago, but we never received any further comment from you. FAR will give time to editors who want to salvage an article, but you must give us updates of your progress. I believe everyone here assumed that the article work had been aborted. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 15:43, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Feel free to use my talk page rather than assume things. It does take time to write articles, and it takes time for me to take the books down from my shelves to reference everything. I have written an expanded section on grammar also. Our aim is to make the article as good as it can be. I am capable of doing that, most others aren't. To that end I expect the Wikipedia community to be supportive of improvement work rather than pulling meaningless deadlines from the air. I am grateful that a few of the above statements have been useful. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 16:01, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Very well, but you must start referencing the article ASAP or it will undoubtedly be delisted. Even B-class articles need to have footnotes. Anyway, I know it might take time to find the page numbers and the specific book, but you or someone else with sources needs to at least start the footnoting process or editors will not be convinced that it shouldn't be delisted. Cheers and good luck! --Al Ameer son (talk) 16:38, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- While progress is being made to address the referencing issues this FARC will be left open. Be sure to provide updates or I will assume that progress has stalled. Joelito (talk) 16:13, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Very well, but you must start referencing the article ASAP or it will undoubtedly be delisted. Even B-class articles need to have footnotes. Anyway, I know it might take time to find the page numbers and the specific book, but you or someone else with sources needs to at least start the footnoting process or editors will not be convinced that it shouldn't be delisted. Cheers and good luck! --Al Ameer son (talk) 16:38, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Feel free to use my talk page rather than assume things. It does take time to write articles, and it takes time for me to take the books down from my shelves to reference everything. I have written an expanded section on grammar also. Our aim is to make the article as good as it can be. I am capable of doing that, most others aren't. To that end I expect the Wikipedia community to be supportive of improvement work rather than pulling meaningless deadlines from the air. I am grateful that a few of the above statements have been useful. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 16:01, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have begun adding references to the article. Some re-editing is required as controversial material has been added. Once decent references are in place for all substantive points, I shall add a more extensive guide to Aramaic phonology that I have written. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 14:32, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Still many referencing issues throughout. Cirt (talk) 02:52, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Lots of work needes still, in addition to the citation issues mentioned, there are image layout issues, a mixture of endashes and spaced emdashes (see WP:DASH), a farm in See also which should be reduced, left-aligned images under third-level headings, etc ... cleanup needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:29, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist nothing happening YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 03:25, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Remove. Referencing concerns remain. Prose issues, structure-related issues (stubby paragraphs and sections), the clean-up need Sandy raised. And not much improvement. I think the best thing is Garzo to re-nominate the article, when he feels ready to do so.--Yannismarou (talk) 09:36, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly, I would like to commend Gareth for his contributions to wikipedia. Subject-specialists and professionals prepared to use their real names as they edit here are in short supply and should be welcomed and encouraged. As he is an identifiable expert, I do not feel that his work requires the same intense verification required for contributions written by anonymous or pseudonymous contributors. I have only one particular concern with the reliability of the article, and that comes from Gareth's comment that "controversial material has been added". Can Gareth assure us that the article represents current academic thinking, and presents a balanced view of the subject area?
On the issue of prose and structure, I have a few comments:
- "Modern Aramaic is spoken today as a first language by many scattered, predominantly small, and largely isolated communities of differing Christian, Jewish and Muslim groups of the Middle East[1]—most numerously by the Assyrians in the form of Assyrian Neo-Aramaic—that have all retained use of the once dominant lingua franca despite subsequent language shifts experienced throughout the Middle East." - this sentence is too long.
- The use of "(see below)" indicates structural problems, as it should not be necessary to refer to information that follows to understand information that precedes it.
- The "Geographic distribution" section includes some history, so maybe this section and "History" can be combined to avoid the short, listy introductory history section later on?
- Please use either ndashes (–) or mdashes (—) but not both, so that the article presents a uniform style to the reader.
- Make "The dialects mentioned in the last section were..." specific, say "The Post-Achaemenid Aramaic dialects were...".
- The use of idiomatic phrases like "with a foot in Imperial" can be confusing to readers who do not share your particular cultural background or are reading english as their second or third language. It is better to speak plainly and use simple sentence forms.
- I suppose there should be a cite for "Modern Aramaic speakers found the language stilted and unfamiliar."
- There are a number of short sections in the "Middle Aramaic" section. Perhaps reviewers here would be assuaged if this was formatted as a table?
- The "See also" section contains many links that are already linked earlier in the article. It is generally considered unnecessary to repeat links. DrKiernan (talk) 14:38, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Nothing seems to be happening with this one. Main contributor has not edited since May 5. I will wait a few more days before closing in the hope that Gareth renews editing. Joelito (talk) 01:59, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I apologize for leaving you all waiting: I've been busy with publishing deadlines. I have a draft of three new sections to add to the article, mostly covering points raised above, and I have a list of references to be added to the extant article. Thank you, DrKiernan, for your points, I think most of the changes you suggest can be made without too much difficulty. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 23:52, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Can we get an update? This FAR has lasted well over two months now, and I don't see a potential for progress in the foreseeable future. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 20:48, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I have expanded the section on nouns and adjectives, including detailed explanation of the state system, as has been requested: more soon. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 00:29, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist, I'd say. Put it out of its misery if none of the authors cares. "Old Aramaic covers over thirteen centuries of the language." Hmmm. "Ancient Aramaic refers to the Aramaic of the Aramaeans from its origin until it becomes the official 'lingua franca' of the Fertile Crescent. It was the language of the city-states of Damascus, Hamath and Arpad." Mixed tenses. Where are the citations? Looking no further.Tony (talk) 11:27, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- There's nothing particularly wrong with any of those statements; please explain yourself. I'm expanding those points that have been requested and will be adding the citations soon. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 01:56, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Rejoinder:
- One language "covers" another? To fix, ask why "of the language" is needed in the first place. Better something like "refers to the language in its form from the X to the Y centuries". Be specific and the logic is right, then.
- "Aramaic ... Aramaic"—please avoid such close reps. "refers to the language of". Easy. But even in the lead, I'd still want a bit of timing ("Crescent in the blah century BC").
- The link to "Israel" goes to "Isreal and Judea". Is this an important distinction that should not be concealed in the pipe? Unhappy about having to click on "Second Temple" in the second sentence to orient myself. The lead should be big picture and prepare non-experts for the greater detail in the body of the article. This lead creates too many questions in my mind.
- Remove "therefore" from the second sentence? "... period and the mother tongue of Jesus ...". The second sentence is a three-item list, and the second item, without a tense, is uncomfortably hanging between the past of the first item and the present of the third.
That's the opening two sentences. I think this demonstrates that the article needs time off the list, where it can be worked up to modern FA standards in a number of respects and resubmitted. A shining article we can all be proud of will probably result. Tony (talk) 16:50, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist. I do agree that inserting references into such an article will take a while, but if one is an expert and has the relevant literature at hand, supplying in-line citations could probably be done within one day. Indeed, NONE has been supplied since this review began. But even if work was ongoing, almost two months is too long for a FAR. G Purevdorj (talk) 22:54, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- No, to most of those observations. Some references have been added and the grammar section is being rewritten. It seems no one else has the will or ability to edit this article, so I am doing it all. I have real work to do too. Providing the best references for an article like this isn't that easy: three millennia of detailed analysis isn't found in a couple of books, and I really want to move away from the overdependence on Beyer that the article has. So, this is not a helpful or constructive comment. Of course, if you want to delist the article I'll spend my energy on something more deserving and let you all do this rewrite. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 22:54, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Possibly you are right about the time frame, but the worst problem is not the number (or quality) of cited research work, but rather the lack of linking the available information to its sources in the bibliography via in-line references. During the last 50 or so edits, about one in-line reference has been added. The problem of verifiability should have preference over sheer content matters. I wouldn't have written my last commentary if it was about 10 new in-line references. By the way, TriZ, please care a bit to hit the right tone - commends like my last one are less likely to give me a timeout than yours. G Purevdorj (talk) 19:59, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- No, to most of those observations. Some references have been added and the grammar section is being rewritten. It seems no one else has the will or ability to edit this article, so I am doing it all. I have real work to do too. Providing the best references for an article like this isn't that easy: three millennia of detailed analysis isn't found in a couple of books, and I really want to move away from the overdependence on Beyer that the article has. So, this is not a helpful or constructive comment. Of course, if you want to delist the article I'll spend my energy on something more deserving and let you all do this rewrite. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 22:54, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep on hold. I can't believe the wiseacres here, it's un-fuckin-believable. Here we have a real expert in the field of Aramaic language, a subject that few know much about, and your doing like this? If you want some quality articles on these subjects, then have some patience and give the experts some credit. Comments like G Purevdor's should be ought to be removed and the user to be awarded with some refreshing time-out. The TriZ (talk) 15:09, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist. After months original concerns haven't been properly addressed. Aaroncrick(Tassie Boy talk) 07:46, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist. A read through the history shows no organized progress toward keeping this an FA in more than three weeks. JKBrooks85 (talk) 11:22, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Images need alt text per WP:ALT. Dabomb87 (talk) 13:42, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist The crucial issue of lack of citations 1c has not changed since March 23 {four months ago) when it was nominated for FAR.[27] —Mattisse (Talk) 15:47, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist—citation desert. Tony (talk) 10:33, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Update: Gareth has not edited for over a month now. I say we bin this right now. This FAR is going nowhere. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 02:47, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree. JKBrooks85 (talk) 08:50, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delist ·Maunus·ƛ· 12:09, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was kept by Joelr31 22:51, 7 June 2009 [28].
Review commentary
- Notified: WP Opera Browser, Remember the dot
- 1d & 1b not met, especially for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opera_(web_browser)#Critical_reception.
WhatisFeelings? (talk) 05:16, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Let's see..."1d" is "neutral", and "1b" is "comprehensive". So, are you saying that there are opposing viewpoints that you do not feel are adequately discussed? Could you provide links to reliable sources discussing these viewpoints? —Remember the dot (talk) 00:19, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- "1d not met": Because it's a relatively short article perhaps? This is because it is well modularised, surely a merit rather than a fault. If you take the sum of the linked "sub-articles" it's more than comprehensive - some might say overly so. If you mean #Critical reception specifically, it alone has 3 other sub-articles.
- "1b not met": Examples? ɹəəpıɔnı 04:18, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The article lacks balance; the entire Critical reception section as whole is an example. Not meeting 1d is a consequence of not meeting 1b. This also responds to the above "are adequately discussed?" To reply more: "provide links to reliable sources" - I googled for a second, and http://operawatch.com/ is among the reliable sources (you may wish to use it as a secondary source), though I like to remind the viewers that, in general, notifiers do not necessarily have an interest in keeping articles FA status when they does not meet the standards noticed, specific to that article.WhatisFeelings? (talk) 19:07, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- as an addition remark, at least the Opera article attempts to improve, while the Firefox one does not, or at least it seems that way.WhatisFeelings? (talk) 19:16, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The article already cites Opera Watch three times. —Remember the dot (talk) 19:14, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- that is one source, and the section lacks sufficient critical remarks; the FAR issues are already stated, and implied.WhatisFeelings? (talk) 19:17, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- "the section lacks sufficient critical remarks" - Are you aware of any further criticisms? If so, please insert but editors can't invent criticisms. I'm not implying there aren't any, just that it seems to me all I'm aware of are in the article. ɹəəpıɔnı 04:10, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Do you not know how to google??? "but editors can't invent criticisms" - haha, you are sooo funny. Oh gosh.
- Future development is section #6 - keep the arrangement of sections in line with the Firefox article.
- Furthermore, someone had added http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Opera_(web_browser)&curid=18996620&diff=276029200&oldid=275733216 - this does meet WP:LINKS
- WhatisFeelings? (talk) 06:07, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- it's also missing System requirementsWhatisFeelings? (talk) 06:55, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- ←←
- "the section lacks sufficient critical remarks" - Are you aware of any further criticisms? If so, please insert but editors can't invent criticisms. I'm not implying there aren't any, just that it seems to me all I'm aware of are in the article. ɹəəpıɔnı 04:10, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- that is one source, and the section lacks sufficient critical remarks; the FAR issues are already stated, and implied.WhatisFeelings? (talk) 19:17, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The article already cites Opera Watch three times. —Remember the dot (talk) 19:14, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- "do you know how to google???" , yes, of course I do. What's your point? This is a ridiculous retort. Please reply with something meaningful.
- "haha, you are sooo funny" - Sorry, maybe my sense of humour is lacking; I don't get the joke.
- On the future developments section being unlike the Firefox article - you are just after commenting above on how poor the Firefox article is, why on earth should the Opera article try to emulate it. There's no MoS entry for browsers or software that I'm aware of: here.
- On the Russian link(s), they are allowable as per the first exception for foreign language links in WP:LINKS as they are the ONLY official source to the relevant Russia-specific statistics related to the browser.
- System Requirements are in the 3rd and 4th paragraphs of the lead-in. ɹəəpıɔnı 02:46, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You may wish to change or amend the eight dead links (see [29]). DrKiernan (talk) 12:39, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed 6 of them. The 7th appears to be a toolserver problem, not a problem with the link. The 8th is in a language I don't speak so I don't know how to fix/find a suitable/relevant alternative. Should non-english links be used as references on en.wiki? Although it's possible the original link pointed to an english article. ɹəəpıɔnı 04:26, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Dab checker tool reveals two dab links. Dabomb87 (talk) 01:56, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Update - i'm not exactly sure but i'm assuming that if the FAR noticer is inactive, then the FAR in question is removed/canceled. in any event, there was very low activity from those i notified.WhatisFeelings? (talk) 23:49, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FARC commentary
- Suggested FA criteria concerns are broken links/citations, NPOV and comprehensiveness. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 01:06, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Broken links have been fixed since mention (the yandex error is a toolserver bug), and dab checker shows no dab links. On other issues, the single user who raised them has refused to elaborate, instead replying with pejorative remarks. ɹəəpıɔnı 05:56, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Not a direct issue raised above, but in general sourcing seems pretty good throughout. Cirt (talk) 02:50, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I'm working my way through some cleanup (copyediting, MOS, ref formatting, etc.). I have concerns whether some sources meet RS. Also finding a fair amount of proseline to clean up. More later. Maralia (talk) 15:02, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. I hope that improvements are on the way:
- Prose concerns: The word "Opera" is mentioned at least 13 times in the lead! Prose in "Features" is not compelling.
- "Opera responded to these accusations the next day." Saying what?
- "Critical reception of Opera has been largely positive,[84][85][86] although it has been criticized for website compatibility issues,[87][88] partly because many web sites do not adhere to web standards as diligently as Opera.[89][90][91] Because of this issue, Opera 8.01 and higher have included workarounds to help certain popular but problematic web sites display properly.[92][93]" Overloading with citations, which break the prose. Combine them or merge them or make a selection among them.--Yannismarou (talk) 09:46, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Default to keep. Three months with no "remove" or "delist" votes. DrKiernan (talk) 08:50, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Cleanup still needed I see bare URLS in references, missing publishers in a few (foreign language) references, excessive external links (see WP:EL), questionable sources ([30]?), and undefined abbreviations (CSS). It's close, but not quite there yet. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:20, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- There's been a fair few edits recently with the release of the 10 beta so it's possible this is as a result of that, not older deficiencies. I'll take a look anyway. ɹəəpıɔnı 15:21, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- ^ Heinrichs 1990: xi–xv; Beyer 1986: 53.