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Definition of "trans woman"

The trans woman page currently starts with the following sentence:

A trans woman (sometimes trans-woman or transwoman) is a woman who was assigned male at birth.

This is problematic for various reasons, mostly relating to neutrality. The question of how exactly 'woman' and 'man' are defined, and as such whether transwomen and transmen respectively are truly included under those terms, is a rather contentious topic. Common dictionary definitions of 'woman' and 'man' are based on biological sex, and a 2017 Pew Research poll unsurprisingly shows that 54% of US adults are of the opinion that whether a person is a man or a woman is determined by their birth sex. Opinions split significantly among Democrats and Republicans, indicating that the topic is political. Even the Wikipedia article woman, which is linked in the sentence starting the article, starts out by defining women as female people, presumably because this is what most reliable sources state. It adds at the end of the lede that "woman" may also refer to one's gender identity.

To make the article neutral, I've proposed the following wording:

A trans woman (sometimes trans-woman or transwoman) is a person who was assigned male at birth but identifies as a woman.

This proposal was struck down repeatedly by several editors based on what I cannot see as substantiated reasons. I think it's most likely to be the strong personal views of most editors who keep watch over transgender-related articles, that makes them reluctant to make such articles neutral. This is part of a more general problem I've faced repeatedly while editing such articles, although most of the time we have been able to reach a compromise, or reluctantly accept one another's position after served with sufficient evidence. This time it seems I've hit a wall. (This is not an accusation of bias on part of any individual editor, but seems to be more of a group-level problem.) I think that it's unlikely to be coincidence that I've had the biggest problems with this particular edit in my months of editing, and that "trans women are women" is at the same time a core slogan (if not the core slogan) of transgender political activists.

Disclaimer: I unconditionally support the human rights and dignity of all people who don't conform to traditional gender norms, which includes people who identify as transgender, lest anyone doubt it. Taylan (talk) 17:44, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree for the purposes of an article that does not attempt to identify any person, that for clarity and neutrality, the second passage should be used, it's more precise (given that we are a global encyclopedia). If we were talking about any specific individual or identifyable group, then I would completely agree for respect of the subject that the first approach is more proper, but in talking in broad general terms for an encyclopedia, the second is proper form to introduce the topic. --Masem (t) 18:53, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

As an editor uninvolved with the discussion, I think the main problem is the difference between transgender and transsexual, which as far as I can see isn't explained in the lead section of the article. Personally I think both forms should be included since, to the best of my knowledge, both are correct. --Jamez42 (talk) 20:59, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

• Comment - I frankly don't care a whole lot between the two proposed wordings, but prefer the first one a bit. However, the OP has been rather relentless on this, despite no consensus for such changes at the article's talk page and this amounts to POV-pushing, FORUMSHOPPING ([1]), and equine carcass abuse. They often cast aspersions on editors who disagree with them, claiming (as said above) that we are "reluctant to make such articles neutral", unreasonable ([2]), and "lose [our] shit" ([3]) (see also [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9]). EvergreenFir (talk) 21:08, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
• Comment The first is potentially confusing, especially for readers from parts of the world where perhaps the gender debate is not occurring. The second version is an indisputably factually accurate statement and to the point so it gets my vote. To be honest though I question whether gender can actually be an identity, because an identity is a social construct whereas transgender people claim their gender is innate rather than constructed. Personally I think "A transwoman (sometimes trans-woman or transwoman) is a biologically male person whose gender is female" would be even better. Given a choice between the two versions above though the second is superior IMHO. Betty Logan (talk) 21:14, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
  • An issue I see with this is that it seems that "transwoman" can be used by a person that may have been biologically born as a man but have gone under gender transition operations to become female, in addition to persons that are biologically male but have not undergone transition operations, and simply have a female gender identity. Also we get into the tricking meaning of "gender" here. This is a case to be extremely precise to avoid terms that have multiple meanings in this context , like standalone words "woman" "man", and "gender". --Masem (t) 22:12, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Support Betty Logan's suggestion I was going to say that I think the second sentence above is better because this terminology is confusing for people who are from areas where this isn't common, but I think this version is even more clear. I'm imagining trying to explain this to my grandparents, both the ones from America and from another country, and I think this is the best way to go. I don't see how any of these 3 lead sentences are non-neutral POV though. They aren't indicating anything anti-trans (or explicitly pro-trans for that matter). Natureium (talk) 01:50, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Before we can define "trans woman" we surely have to define "trans". I don't know what it means. Is it an abbreviation of something? If so, what? HiLo48 (talk) 23:04, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't think it can be defined in isolation. It is generally a component of a another word (e.g. transform/transfer/transfusion/translate) which has no direct meaning of its own. You can see from those examples there is a common theme though. Betty Logan (talk) 23:20, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

To me the common theme is the creation of neologisms, whose meaning the inventors and other people in the same grouping are certain of, but which are totally unclear to those a little removed from the centre of the action. HiLo48 (talk) 01:32, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

English prefix trans- is derived from Latin preposition trans, meaning "across". Both trans·fer and trans·late derive from trans + fer[re] (ppl. latus) "carry", thus "to carry across". Trans woman is a shortening of transgender woman, a woman who is transgender. Transgender is from 1965, and trans woman was first used in 1996. But although decomposing words into parts is the basis for their etymology, it doesn't always help you see what they mean, otherwise trans·late would mean "carry across", and "under·stand" would mean something different than it does. You have to consider how a whole word is used, irrespective of its component parts. Mathglot (talk) 08:28, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't see any discussion of sources here. Such matters should be decided not by editors' personal opinions or opinion polls or what editors think may be confusing but by reference to reliable sources.Smeat75 (talk) 03:10, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

• On a procedural note, that the OP started this discussion because every other edtior (AFAICT) on the article talk page opposed their POV, and that the OP failed (AFAICT) to give notification/a link to this discussion on that talk page, would seem to add to the question of whether this is forum-shopping, as I see another editor has already noted. -sche (talk) 04:17, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Should a talk page message have been left? Yes. However, I read the talk page and do see some issues there where editors seem to be taking the stance on the lede sentence from the "respect for the trans women" side, while the OP here is logically arguing towards the possible confusion of the term "woman" (not "trans woman") within the context of a global encyclopedia where English is not clear in context (the point Betty Logan makes). WP is not a safe space, we have to be clear about what the term is considered to mean, even if this might offend those that align with the term. As long as we're not directing this to anyone specific or not, this should not be a problem in terms of WP's neutrality. That all changes if we're directing that towards any one or group personally identifiable, at which point respect for that person/group takes precedence. --Masem (t) 04:52, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
    • Re your second sentence, yes, I have noticed that a few editors may be basing their views not as much on WP policies as we would all like. I also notice other editors (there and in the related discussions on Talk:Trans man) appearing to be doing likewise in the "discredit the trans women" direction. But it has seemed like, for the most part, policy-based arguments have been prevailing. This article's body does need to more fully explain the topic ... I would guess it is relatively short at the moment because editors have mostly focused on [[Transgender]] (which is four times this article's size). -sche (talk) 19:46, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose Betty Logan's suggestion, which runs counter to the the spirit and the letter of MOS:GENDERID and introducing contentious concepts ("biologically male person") which are irrelevant to the article in question. The article is about a gender identity, and apart from sex assignment, I see no reason to invoke terminology about biological sex. Newimpartial (talk) 06:10, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

  The current version of the article states that a transwoman is somebody who "was assigned male at birth". How is that not "invoking terminology about biological sex"? After all, saying someone was "assigned male at birth" is simply a euphemism for saying someone was born with male anatomy. Betty Logan (talk) 07:19, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

  But "biologically male person" is not a helpful term since it includes the phrase "male person" which factually incorrect for a transwoman. "Assigned male" is a neutral and preferred term. --bonadea contributions talk 07:32, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

  "Assigned male" is a euphemism and obfuscates a fact. These designations are not handed out via a lottery. If you object to the term "biologically male person" that can easily be converted to a "a person born biologically male" or something along those lines. I disagree with with Newimpartial that this article is about gender identity; it is actually about gender and biological sex because both are defining traits of transgenderism i.e. you cannot be transgender if your gender matches up to your chromosomes. Betty Logan (talk) 07:46, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

  It's not a euphemism, it's technical jargon. Also, the last statement above is incorrect. See for example, an XY trans man with androgen insensitivity syndrome and typical external female anatomy.

  Also, you say that the term "biologically male person" is "not handed out via lottery". If by this you mean to say that babies are pronounced "biologically male" (or female) based on a biological test, you would be mistaken. In no case that I am aware of are biological tests performed on infants presumed healthy at birth; instead, a birth attendant merely observes the neonate's genitalia and assigns them a gender by saying "it's a boy" or "it's a girl" without performing any test at all. This observation (which may or many not match chromosomes, hormones, or internal anatomy) goes on the birth certificate and becomes the basis of legal gender, even though it may be wrong, as in the example of the AIS trans man. Mathglot (talk) 09:18, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

  No animus directed at Betty Logan, but this disiscussion is a perfect example of why articles on trans topics should be edited by people who have read and understand the literature and not based on the POV and OR of all arrivals (perhaps especially from the noticeboard).

• "Assignmed male" is not a euphemism and is in fact the virtually universal term used in recent RS. The conflict in these terms is not between "biological" sex and "subjectively experienced" gender but between the gender identity socially assigned at birth and that experienced and affirmed later. As pointed out by others, chromosomal tests are seldom administered at birth, but rather gender is assigned by nurses or midwives by anotomical observation. So, for example, for someone whose anatomy at birth does not represent their chromosomes, they are not transgender if their socially assigned gender corresponds to their gender identity even when the latter might conflict with their chromosomes: a chromosome test could not suddenly make them a trans woman. Similarly, if a person in this situation were to experience a gender in conflict with that assigned at birth, they could identify as trans even if their identity matches their chromosomes. (There is however no requirement that gender discrepant and nonconforming individuals identity as "Trans Men" and "Trans women" - these are identities rather than "objective terms, which Betty Logan's appears not to understand.)

  Since the terms "Trans woman" and "Trans man" do not make reference to "biological sex" according to the RS, it would be misleading to readers (and apparently also to editors) to use the term in the respective articles - in fact, it represents what I have called elsewhere "the worst KIND of POV OR". Newimpartial (talk) 12:46, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

  No, it's actually a good sign why this area needs uninvolved eyes. Our goal is clarity for a global readership, many who may be from areas of the world where LGBTQ is culturally suppressed, or face hostility, or just not considered at all. While most of us are likely from Western countries and readily understand that terms like "woman" and "man" when talking about this area generally mean how the person identifies, this is in no way a clear fact in other parts of the world. We have to have to bite the bullet, recognize that we might have to step on sensitive terminology issues so that for a generic article not specific about any person or group (eg, GENDERID does not apply) that we need straight-forward, clear and simple language that cannot be confused with other terms to define the topic. That's a simple, factual starting point that every English reader cannot be confused about regardless where they came from. After that, then I would fully expect the article to delve into the sensitivity around the issue, how trans women are considered "women" in most of the West, etc. The attempts based on the talk page to try to obfuscate the plain, basic definition that would be understood worldwide is an issue here. I fully agree that fight must be done where GENDERID applies, but this specific article is not that case. --Masem (t) 13:04, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

  The threading here is already horribly mangled, but I wanted to make a second reply to Masem's comment here that has, I think, continuing relevance to this discussion. There aren't "talk page efforts to obfuscate" and certainly "biological sex" would not be part of the "plain, basic definition". I think the reliable sources show that worldwide, the term "woman" is used not to indicate xx chromosomes but to mean something like "people accepted as women within my culture". From where I stand, it is the chromosome folks that are obfuscating... Newimpartial (talk) 12:49, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

  (bringing this in as to keep some threading elements). You are talking about a very narrow section of RSes that apply to women and gender studies. When we look at all RSes throughout time, "woman" remains defined as "a human female". (Oxford, MW, Cambridge). And a good related discussion I found in trying to search on other examples is from Salon here about the issues lexicographers have with the new meaning of these terms. As that article points out, they are trying to stay middle-ground conservative and thus not yet changing those definitions. And that's only considering the English language. If/when sources like Oxford and MW actually do reflect the fact that the primary definition of "woman" should be "one that identifies as a human female", then we can use that version. Basically, the core issue here is that we know that there is a cultural push to respect how some people identify as gender, which requires a new approach to the vocabulary. Where we can on en.wiki, we will respect that new vocabulary and what identities known persons and groups want to use, as long as we can stand key notable facets without this play on the language (eg at one point, Caitlyn Jenner completed in sports as a man, we can't hide that at all). But when it comes to the general terms, where there is no single specific individual group of discussion, we need to be direct based on the meaning of the words that everyone else in the world would understand, not just those that are deep into the reading of gender studies. But we are dynamic, so if there is this shift that the world (outside of gender studies) is shown to accept the definition of "woman" as "identifies as a human female", then great, we will adapt to. Unfortunately, right now, we have to follow where the English language is now to stay neutral rather than favor a small minority of sources. --Masem (t) 13:21, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Feel free to rethread or insert an arrow.

Thing is, we are not talking about the article for Woman, we are discussing Trans woman. So the OED definition of"woman" is not even tangentially relevant here (and q.v. NOTDICTIONARY). The existing text AFAIK represents the majority of current, reliable sources and any reference to "biological sex" clearly would not. The article Trans woman is an article on gender identity, and if readers don't understand what that is, the article should explain it. What the article should not do is to apply misleading simplifications e.g. with appeal to the red herring of "biological sex". What's more, this is not a gender studies article but one about the lived experience of millions of people. MOS:GENDERID suggests to me that we should not violate the language in which that experienced is described without very good reason. Newimpartial (talk) 14:56, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

It is relevant because while this is a topic that would fall within women's/gender studies, it is not a technical article about it (where we're introducing a uncommon English word that requires background knowledge to understand), nor written in a manner that identifies this as a women's/gender studies topic as to set the expectations for what some words might mean. It is a "top level" article, written for 100% of the audience. Take a person from Russia or China with English-as-a-second-language, they are going to take what is currently there to assume that "transwoman" only applies to those that have transitioned gendered, because the meaning of the word woman they know, and what is first in the blue-link, is "human female". That misses out on those men that haven't transitioned gender but identify as a woman.

Which is the other problem is that you're insisting on a definition that is from the RSes that are cleared favored in this area. There's volumes more outside that, and I'm sure some very critical and opposed to that definition (I personally do not hold their opinion), that are likely RSes too. Using a biased set of RSes without considering the larger context is a problem too. That's why JARGON comes into play, we're not writing for only readers interested in gender studies but all readers. We need 100% crystal clear language, and whether that is to say "now identifies as a woman" or "is a woman by their gender identity" or some aspect to make it clear we're talking about the secondary definition of "woman" is needed. And again GENDERID does not apply, because we are not talking about a single individual who could state their preference but by a broad category that lacks any singular voice. --Masem (t) 15:16, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

We are taking about the group of people who identify as Trans women, and we can be reasonably certain that they identify as women and not as male. The whole reason we are having this discussion is that the OP doesn't believe that they are women and has edited the article repeatedly based on their POV, including the current attempt to be "neutral" about whether they are women or not. And this particular subthread is about Betty Logan's proposal, which is objectively worse in that it makes an entirely unnecessary appeal to "biological sex" that is unsupported by current RS and seems to be a throwback to 1980s transsexual discourse. Newimpartial (talk)

• In what sense are the articles Trans man and Trans woman not articles about groups of people to whole MOS:GENDERID would apply? I am at a loss to understand what Masem means here. Newimpartial (talk) 17:36, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

  It's the difference between a specifically identifyable person or named group (where we are giving some type of Proper Name that leads to clear identification of an individual or group), rather than a general category of people. For example, if the article was about GLAAD, we would very much likely respect GENDERID in talking about trans-women/-men within that, since people can be identified from that group name. But in the broad category of trans-women, we're not identifying anyone specifically. GENDERID does not apply. --Masem (t) 18:52, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

  In this case wouldn't anyone who identifies as a trans woman clearly belong to the group trans women? Also unclear on the reasoning for why GENDERID should be taken to apply to trans people when they are only referred to singularly. Rab V (talk) 19:11, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

  It's a broad category, it is not a specially named group. There's a significant difference here. --Masem (t) 20:13, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not convinced by Masem's reasoning here. The relevant paragraph of the MOS is: Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. I don't see how it is restricted to "Proper noun" identification as Masem suggests. People quite literally and publicly identify themselves as individual Trans women, and indeed the article has a section on "Notable trans women". It seems evident to me that the current text is fully compliant with GENDERID, while Betty Logan's "biologically male" is incompatible (quite apart from being nonsensical in context). Newimpartial (talk) 19:32, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

What's up with the scare quotes, Masem, at ...how trans women are considered "women"... above? Just because someone may have uninvolved eyes, doesn't mean those eyes are unbiased. For all the good will in the world you may have, uninvolved sometimes implies uninformed. Mathglot (talk) 20:15, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Keep in mind we are writing an encyclopedia aimed for the "uninformed". Given the world population, it is a minority that know about the sensitivity here. Trying to promote that minority view in light of generic article is a problem. --Masem (t) 21:29, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict)You are exactly right, that is who we are writing the encyclopedia for. However, you probably don't want the uninformed writing the articles about complex topics, or at least, not just off the top of their head without referring to sources every step of the way. Mathglot (talk) 23:40, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Biological context is not nonsensical. Biological sex is a fact. XY-sex determination is a fact, albeit with a few atypical cases. What is nonsensical is the idea that "sex" is arbitrarily assigned: it is not. Take the case of David Reimer for instance; after a botched circumcision as a baby he was castrated and given a sex change i.e. he was born biologically male (i.e. with male anatomy) and then designated female as a result of a sex change. As he grew older he rejected the female identity assigned to him and embarked on hormone therapy to restore his male characteristics. Having a female identity forced onto him did not make him a transgender male, by merely being assigned female shortly after his birth. If this is the criteria then it makes the whole transgender definition arbitrary. Sex designations are not random: they are distinguished by distinct biological features, and it is the mismatch between these biological features and gender that gives rise to transgender people. If you want a clear definition of what a transgender person is then it is impossible to avoid the biological context. Betty Logan (talk) 22:29, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

The DL;TR for the above interention is simply ICANTHEARYOU. For goodness' sake, if Davis Reimer now has the gender identity of a man but not a trans man, it is because he identifies as a man but not a trans man. Chromosomes only enter into it if they enter into David's process of identification. I feel like I am hearing from Betty a transsexual politics and science of the 1980s; those sources are simply no longer reliable. Newimpartial (talk) 23:24, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Newimpartial, Love that initialism; can I steal it? Assuming it stands for "desultory logorrhea; tough read", but wasn't completely sure. Mathglot (talk) 01:05, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

LOL. If there's a word for a Spoonerism of an initial ism, I don't know that word. Newimpartial (talk) 01:27, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

1.6% of the population being intersex is not "a few atypical cases". The lack of basic understanding of what it even means to be transgender (to not identify with the gender assigned at birth) is astounding. EvergreenFir (talk) 23:29, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Betty, you are correct: XY-sex determination is a fact; it just never happens at birth, except in the most extremely rare of cases. However, you don't seem to understand the difference between genetic, anatomic, and biological.

The Reimer case is a complete red herring here, since Reimer was never trans, and he was never DNA tested. DNA testing didn't even come into existence until he was already 20, and by then he had already been living as a male for six years. But I find it interesting, even amusing, that you raised it. If you accept the Reimer lesson you are proposing, namely that gender identity is innate and cannot be altered, then you align yourself with the transgender activists criticized by some here, who say precisely the same thing. You make an odd couple, to say the least. Mathglot (talk) 23:42, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

I bear transgender people no animosity, and have no problem with sharing facilities etc. I do believe that gender is largely innate, simply because I have never met anyone or heard anyone talk who feels like they "switched" gender. I have a transgender colleague who tells that "in her mind" she has always been female and I don't see how you can really dispute somebody else's sense of sentient self. Dual-gender people may exist out there, but I suspect gender is overwhelmingly static even in transgender people. I also don't see how you can divorce the concept of transgenderism from biological sex, male anatomy or male physiology or whatever you want to call it. If you were to randomly assign sex designations then pretty much half the population of the planet would be transgender (following the definition currently installed in the transwoman article), which seems like a logical fallacy to me. Betty Logan (talk) 00:17, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

• If the article has a section on "Notable trans women", meaning we know they were born biologically male but identify as female, then that means that trans- aspect better be covered by sources and essential to the person's notability per GENDERID, so that the fact that they were male at birth should be part the BLP article and thus on the list (eg like Caitlyn Jenner). Thus, there's no incompatibility there. Its the case where the person's notability has little do with them identifying as "trans"; that is the case that GENDERID was written towards, to prevent things like deadnaming, etc, where their earlier life has present little impact on their current notability. In such cases, we're not even support to call out to this transitional nature. We'd call them a "woman" or "female" and that's it, and act like the trans part was not there; these people should definitely then not be on the list in the current article to prevent calling out an aspect that is not covered by their article. That's the type of respect that GENDERID aims for. But when we are talking the broad category of these people, we need to weight precision of the English language over sensitivity. --Masem (t) 20:13, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Masem, you are skipping a key step here. They are notable trans women if they identify as trans women; we don't have to know anything about a person's chromosomes or anatomy in RS to know how they are identified in RS, so the sex (as opposed to gender) aspect is quite irrelevant to this as other sections of the article. Newimpartial (talk) 23:24, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

If they have clearly and publicly identified as a trans woman, that better be sourced in the article. (I would readily assume there's trans women that are activities for supporting other trans women, so establishing they were that before via self-identification makes a lot of sense). What we don't want are people that through word of mouth or bad journalism (the likes of TMZ) identifying people as trans-women without self-identification or clear past notability on their previous identity. That's the who point of GENDERID. --Masem (t) 23:51, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

• Support - The proposed wording seems perfectly factual and doesn't run afoul of MOS:GENDERID, despite claims above. The OG wording might be confusing to those who are just now learning about the subject and we need clarity for those readers. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)} 07:53, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose both – Why use a decidedly non-neutral expression such as "assigned male"? We would be clearer for readers of all backgrounds if we simply stated "born male", or "born a biological male", to avoid any ambiguity between biological sex and self-identifying gender for the word "male". My suggestion would be:

A trans woman is a person who was born a biological male and identifies as a woman.

Note this proposal also avoids opposing biology to identity with "but", rather using "and" to show both are not contradictory. Sounds a lot more neutral imho. — JFG ^talk 08:30, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Maybe because it doesn't correspond to sources or reality? Nobody is born "biologically male" except a tiny minority of babies who have to undergo chromosome or other tests. Everybody else is just presumed male (or female) based on appearance. And where's your source that "assigned male" is non-neutral, or is that just an opinion? You did add "imho", so maybe that answers that. Mathglot (talk) 09:31, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Slightly more than 50% of people are born biologically male. Natureium (talk) 20:23, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Nature in, "biologically" is still a nonsensical term here. By it, you seem to be conflating anatomical and chromosomal sex, which are (1) imperfectly corellated and (2) strictly irrelevant, since it is the social gender label applied at birth (or shortly after) that is relevant to the article.

Also, completely unsourced factoid. Noice. Newimpartial (talk) 12:26, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Comment: A while ago I felt uneasy with "assigned sex" terminology also, as I agree it's used euphemistically for trans people so as to avoid offending them, but a compromise I made with myself was to improve the sex assignment article to clarify that 1) in most cases, sex assignment is accurate with regard to biological sex (as revealed by studies about the frequency of disorders of sex development [DSD]), and 2) intersex/DSD issues (where sex assignment is indeed inaccurate) are separate from gender identity issues. So long as the sex assignment article makes these points clear, I think it's a good compromise to use "assigned female/male" terminology when referring to trans people, linking to the sex assignment article. As a bonus, it includes the tiny minority of people who are both intersex and identify as transgender. Taylan (talk) 12:31, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I agree with Taylan's point 1; in the vast majority of cases, sex assignment most likely aligns with biological sex. (Tough to find data on this, but I concede the point. Williams Institute says 1.6% of one population identify as trans, implying 98.4% cis, but this is an identity statistic, not a biological one.) However, there is a small minority of cases in which they are not in alignment, and the locus of this discussion resides squarely in that sliver, or we wouldn't be having it. (As Taylan pointed out, intersex issues are an independent variable, and orthogonal to this discussion.) Mathglot (talk) 20:42, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Support this optional also. Very clear, neutral, and doesn't include any euphemisms that might be confusing for anyone reading this overview article on wikipedia because they aren't familiar with the topic. Natureium (talk) 20:23, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose As already stated, a blatant case of FORUMSHOPPING. The OP has not presented any concrete evidence that the existing wording is POV. Denying "transwomwn are women", despite governments, NGOs and academics working towards acceptance of this, could well be interpreted as transphobic and in support of the POV of minority groups such as Anti-transexual feminists. --John B123 (talk) 09:36, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

• Comment on WP:FORUMSHOP concerns and a related question: Firstly, apologies for not linking this section from the trans woman talk page. I don't like bureaucracy and haven't used the ANI before; I just read the banner on top of this page to get the basics. It should be clear from the talk page that there was no intention to hide this discussion. Secondly, the principle of forum shopping seems to be to use forums where one is likely to gather people who sympathize with one's position. I decided to use the ANI not because I hoped to fish for people who are antagonistic to trans issues, let alone who support radical feminist gender abolitionism(!) like I do outside of Wikipedia; I came here hoping that people would be more unbiased. I find it very noteworthy that the only people here who opposed my proposed change to the trans woman page so far are those who come from the talk page of that article. Everyone else either supported my proposal or asked for more radical rewording which I wouldn't have dared to suggest, such as to bluntly call transwomen "biologically male." This supports my idea that trans-related articles are often kept in line with a certain POV by groups of editors who are probably naturally drawn to such articles through their interests in life. (Again: not an accusation towards any individual, or an accusation of intentional bad faith.) As such, a question (if I may ask it here): how to best deal with such a problem on Wikipedia? (I imagine it affects many other groups of articles also.) In my experience it takes an undue amount of patience and resilience to bring neutrality and/or fair representation of oppositional positions into trans-related articles by discussing things on the talk page. Surely I shouldn't be using the ANI every time? How else do I best get impartial editors to join in on a discussion? Taylan (talk) 13:09, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

As, by your own admissions, those who disagree with your POV are biased, your question "How else do I best get impartial editors to join in on a discussion" boils down to "How do I get editors who agree with my point of view to join in the discussions". As the OP has been trying unsuccessfully trying to change this wording since 19 February 2017, I think it's time to draw a line under the matter once and for all. --John B123 (talk) 15:06, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose per John B123. Rab V (talk) 19:03, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

(Following up on my comment earlier in this section,) I remind everyone that we're talking about the first sentence of an article that continues on for another ~30,000 bytes, so pace the user who didn't know what trans meant, if you go to any article with no prior knowledge, you may need to read more than one sentence; even WP:LEDE says the whole lead is summarizes the article. This article's lead is very short, though, and could use additional sentences, including perhaps one better explaining (rather than just linking to the article on) transgender, but the current wording of the first sentence seems broadly like a good summary; everything after it goes into the details. There is always room for improvement, but we should be wary of switching to language that casts doubt on what reliable sources say about this topic / that reduces it to "identifying".
(People will always find imperfections in comparisons, but one I made on the talk page is that the first sentence of the article on Barack Obama does not say he "is a politician who identifies as an American", nor does the first sentence of the article on Donald Trump say he "lost the popular vote but won the electoral college and identifies as the 45th President of the United States" or indeed that he "identifies as having won the popular vote". There are guidelines against wording that casts doubt on the veracity of things reliable sources report; the lead sentences of those articles just say that Trump "is the 45th and current President" and Obama "is an American politician".)
I also agree with those who oppose this on the grounds that it may constitute forum-shopping. -sche (talk) 19:34, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

The issue is that, at least in context of speaking of a person, "American" is clearly well defined, being a person that resides or is a citizen of the US; there's no other definition to worry about. The phrasing presently use uses "woman" but in a version (generally to be a person that identifies as a female) that is not synonymous with the normal definition of the word that the whole world uses (being simply, a biologically-female human). There's ambiguity that we need to be more precise about in the lede of that article to meet the needs of the global world readership. Until there's near worldwise acceptance that "woman" would mean the identification rather than the biological meaning, we need to be very precise on this terminology article. --Masem (t) 20:18, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose. This keeps getting run up the flagpole and finding no one saluting, so now it has been brought to a different flagpole so that well-meaning users with little or no understanding of the topic might, without having read the discussion, be more likely to salute it. (Surprise, so far it's working!) I'm not going to reargue this here, but in short: the established wording is consistent with relevant WP policy, is not in conflict with recent reliable sources, and is clearly written in such a way that is unlikely to confuse readers. The discussion that spawned this noticeboard thread is a textbook example of IDHT. (Other letters worth fishing from the alphabet soup and examining include SPA. The soup may have a hint of MEAT in it, too; I can't be sure, but recently there have been uncannily similar efforts at related articles.) Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 20:23, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry everyone but his conversation has become far more confusing than the original problem appeared to be. People are using and trying to justify language that is (politically?) "correct" in their own cultural niche, but that clashes with that used by others. Using different language does NOT imply criticism or negative views. It is a difficult topic because it is relatively new, and the English language does not have certainty in the area. As others have said many times, our audience is global, and includes many who are not close to the politics of the evolving language in this area. We need to be able to write about this in ways that are clear to readers who don't know any transgender people, and who have not kept up with the latest in what is considered offensive or non-offensive by those close to the world where these issues arise. HiLo48 (talk) 22:30, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

The idea we need to dumb ideas down for our readers is farcical. We are not writing like Judith Butler. No language used is any more complicated than an intro to women's studies book. EvergreenFir (talk) 23:32, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

I said neither that we should dumb things down nor that the language is too complicated. Your contribution is unhelpful. It suggests you either didn't read or didn't understand my comment properly. HiLo48 (talk) 00:16, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Apologies HiLo48, that comment was more directed at Masem. But your last sentence does seem to suggest that this is somehow too confusing for folks As to what is offencive or not. EvergreenFir (talk) 05:57, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

If "trans woman" was a term only used in woman's studies, so that the likely reader of such an article would be expected to be familiar with that, you're right. But this term is being presented in a broad, global society context. We have to ignore the specialization of terms until we can establish enough context to explain the term, especially since it overlaps with a very different meaning that is much more common in the world. Once you have context established, then you can use the word as it would mean in the field. Think about how this would work for readers with English-as-a-second-language, or people using translation tool, or people from Eastern countries where LGBTQ are prosecuted; we are not just writing for the Western audience where the context may seem clear. --Masem (t) 00:00, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

I think using language similar to that found in RS while explaining any terms that may be too technical is a fairly common way to deal with this. Rab V (talk) 00:05, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

That makes a lot of sense. The problem is finding the language to explain technical terms. This thread alone demonstrates that people cannot agree on the language to do that. HiLo48 (talk) 00:16, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Masem, I grant your good faith on isues of ESL, foreign readers at en-wiki, or translation, and you will find me an extemely sympathetic audience in anything having to do with those topics as I spend a good deal of my time with them. In thinking about this problem, however, the last thing you want to do in this article (or any article) is cater to users using a translation tool. This is not the venue to go into details about that, but come over to WP:TRANSLATION or WP:PNT if you are interested, and I'd be happy to discuss that further. I absolutely support using clear English here, or anywhere. Nevertheless, the realities of certain topics are such that they are not easily conveyed to those who do not have the vocabulary for it or unfamiliar with the jargon, and that includes not only ESL folks, but also native speakers who haven't been exposed to the topic and the vocabulary before. I remember wandering into a Philosophy article, and getting slapped on the wrist, because I assumed a word was used in the normal, everyday, English sense, and "fixed" it, but actually it meant something else very specific in that context. So, now I know. Anyway, when the jargon is complex but clearly supported by reliable sources, then we should use it, and then wikilink it, and possibly add inline or footnote type explanatory notes if further clarification is needed. We should not try to explain something assuming the lowest common denominator; for one thing, there would never be any agreement about "how simplified" it should be. After all, the "trache shave" article is not called Trache shave, is it? And tell me how many people know that word, even including those who have had the operation? Best to stick with the proper words, and explain as needed. Mathglot (talk) 01:27, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

The core point is this: The word "woman" that, without any other context, has a meaning that 100% of the world understands without question (a biological female), and has a rather centuries-long meaning. The argument being used here is to use on the first instance of the term (lede sentence) to use a meaning of "woman" that a small fraction have come to use it over only a few decades. We cannot override common sense, common meaning, and long history here to favor a small group, at least to make our encyclopedic article perfectly clear to the rest of the world. Let's put it this way: it is not so much what RS define "trans-woman" as, but what RS define "woman" as, and the clear overriding meaning of RS in that sense is the biological female meaning. It may seem that we're not being sensitive, but WP is not censored nor a "safe space" for ideas. The reality of what "trans-woman" means to the rest of the world outside of women's or gender studies has to take precedence to make sure we don't confuse our readers. This is basically, MOS:JARGON, understanding that "woman" as "identifies as woman" is jargon at this point in time. --Masem (t) 02:10, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

@Masem:, you raise an interesting point by linking MOS:JARGON. At the link, they make this observation: For unavoidably technical articles, a separate introductory article (like Introduction to general relativity) may be the best solution. The fact is, articles about Trans issues are about unavoidably technical topics, as many of the "Support" voters here have taken some pains to point out. I don't disagree, but I don't think unwarranted simplification for an inherently complex topic is the answer. The {{Transgender sidebar}} links over 100 topics, and the Nav template links even more. It could well be that what is needed here, is a new, Introduction to transgender topics article, which speaks directly to these issues of what the words mean, and what the topic is about. This may not be an immediate solution to the current question at issue, but then again, this section alone is now 47,518 bytes, a decent size for a non-stub article. Maybe we should have all been collaborating there, where every one of these viewpoints could be accommodated, instead of spending this much time on one line. I dunno; just a thought. Mathglot (talk) 03:40, 17 June 2018 (UTC) update by Mathglot (talk) 03:42, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Call it what it is and make it basic reading rather than some convoluted gender studies text.Marketless (talk) 01:38, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Masem that is a terrific comment and sums it up. This is not a gender studies article.Marketless (talk) 02:18, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

@Marketless, congratulations on your fifth day at Wikipedia, and thanks for your contributions at Fleshlight, Artificial vagina, and Testicles as food. I notice you have four warnings on your talk page and a block already, but you managed to find WP:NPOVN well enough. Again, welcome. Mathglot (talk) 02:32, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Oh thank you very much but I didn't know this was the place to be sharing congratulatory messages. What have you been up to this weekend. any plans for your summer vacation. How's the family?Marketless (talk) 03:47, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose per John B123, FORUMSHOP, IDHT and other arguments. As far as technical jargon, call it what it is at first, wikilinked for those who want to follow terms they're not familiar with, and then explain as necessary in footnotes or explanations in the body of the article. Terms used should be those used by reliable sources. Mathglot (talk) 03:18, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Technical gender studies terms should be reserved for gender study classes. I do not oppose the change.Marketless (talk) 03:35, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

How is A trans woman (sometimes trans-woman or transwoman) is a person who was assigned male at birth but identifies as a woman not an improvement. It is easier for people to read. this not a gender studies class.Marketless (talk) 03:38, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Marketless, no need to make the same point four times. Everybody here reads English. Mathglot (talk) 03:56, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

They are different points I've made. Sorry to disagree with your point of view but no need to get nasty now.Marketless (talk) 04:08, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

• Neither. If we are going to stuff around with the lead, let's get it right. Why a mention of assigned male at birth. Who did the assigning? Isn't it simply a random outcome during conception? Moriori (talk) 03:49, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

That's actually a good point Moriori. The current one is not good and needs to be made easier for people who are not trans or from the LGBT community to understand.Marketless (talk) 03:56, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

@Moriori: you'll kindly notice the wiki links in both bold texts in the OP whereupon you may investigate the meaning of the term assigned male at birth for yourself if you are unfamiliar. EvergreenFir (talk) 06:01, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

@EvergreenFir: What a snarky response to a legitimate post.Furthermore you totally missed the point. I asked why we mention assigned male at birth rather than random outcome during conception. I have three children, and we knew the gender of each one months before birth (as do millions of other people). They weren't assigned gender at birth. They weren't assigned anything at any time. Their sex was decided randomly at conception. Moriori (talk) 22:31, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

You mistake a sincere post for snark and had you not, you'd understand what sex assignment is. As for your own children, I don't think it very appropriate to bring up their anatomy in this forum. EvergreenFir (talk) 00:09, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose on procedural grounds. A FORUMSHOP proposal from an SPA who has spent the last 18 months arguing from the POV that Trans women are not women and has even recently EW on this basis deserves a DENY response. Newimpartial (talk) 13:20, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose procedurally, per Newimpartial. Start an RFC at Talk:Trans woman if you're determined to argue this or if there's reason to believe other editors support your view, otherwise you should simply drop it and do something else. power~enwiki (π, ν) 22:47, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Notes

Straw poll for "assigned male at birth"

This debate seems to have lost a lot of focus. One of the main contentions throughout is this notion that sex is "assigned at birth". I am interested in finding out whether a consensus actually exists for the phrase "assigned male at birth". If a consensus exists then we can move on, but if one does not exist the phrase should be removed and replaced by a (yet to be decided) alternative. So, do you support the phrasing of "assigned male at birth" in the opening sentence defining at "trans woman"? Betty Logan (talk) 23:16, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose As myself and other editors in this discussion have pointed out, the sex is not "assigned". It is determined via a biological process and to state it is assigned is WP:JARGON at best, and a WP:EUPHEMISM at worst. It is worth noting that Encyclopedia Britannica defines a transgender person as somebody "whose gender identity varies from that traditionally associated with their apparent biological sex at birth." That cuts to the chase and does what an encyclopedia is supposed to do: it explains a confusing topic in clear terms for a general readership. At the moment the Wikipedia article is not achieving that. Betty Logan (talk) 23:16, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

  You are mistaken, and seem to have missed the import of apparent in the quote. The sex of a baby is determined by observation of genitalia, full stop. Only a tiny minority of births involve any kind of DNA or other sex-related testing. When a birth attendant says, "It's a girl!" or "It's a boy!" the baby's sex has been assigned, and goes onto their birth certificate that way without any kind of testing being performed to verify it. About 99% of the time, this is a correct assignment, and that's the end of the story. In discussing the minority of cases where someone is transgender, scholarly articles universally use the term, "assigned male/female at birth" or some variant of it. There are reliable sources numbering in the thousands that use this term. The fact that you are so unfamiliar with the scientific literature about transgender issues as to never have heard the term before, means your vote is based on pure opinion, and blithely ignores the consensus of a massive amount of independent, reliable, secondary sources. Mathglot (talk) 21:13, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

  The fact that I am unfamiliar with transgender terminology actually makes my point more relevant. These articles are for a general readership, and judging by the responses here I am not alone. There is a reason why Britannica does not use this "assigned at birth" terminology. The first two dictionaries I looked up (Merriam Webster and Oxford Dictionaries) don't use it either. They define the term in clear unambiguous English. Wikipedia has an entire article discussing Sex assignment and readers shouldn't have to read a whole other article just to understand the first sentence of this article. Betty Logan (talk) 22:45, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

• Support. Clear and unambiguous. We don't want to say that trans women actually were men (not only as opposed to women in general, but as opposed to women with the wrong body) before their operation, do we?? Georgia guy (talk) 23:46, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
• Procedural oppose this is a content issue which should be debated at some other forum. Regarding that content issue: the sex chromosomes of transgender person are generally not in dispute, but whether that is the appropriate criteria to determine the gender of people (who are minors) in a social construct is disputed. I abstain from that discussion. power~enwiki (π, ν) 23:50, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
• Objection this is not a forum to debate the use of a widespread term that forms the very basis for the definition of transgender. If you need educated on the term, ask at the ref desk, visit related articles, and then discuss on the articles' talk page. This has nothing to do with NPOV. EvergreenFir (talk) 00:06, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Wikipedia reflects the consensus of reliable sources. That means we don't discount decades of science for the whims of far left social activists who earned their PhDs with theses like Dating violence in Stephenie Meyer's Twilight saga. Male and female are biological categories and biology, an actual science, isn't subjective or "assigned." This trendy new religion has no more basis in reality than the old ones. 155.254.48.193 (talk) 00:25, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. This has everything to do with NPOV and preventing Wikipedia from looking foolish. If anyone needs to be educated re this they need only read Wikipedia, which states, "A baby’s sex is determined at the time of conception.". Thank you for that Wikipedia. It is not assigned nine months after the event where it had already occurred randomly. Millions of parents know that already. Thanks for opening this Betty Logan. My beef is not with trans, but the assigned claim.Moriori (talk) 00:40, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
• Procedural oppose (the poll); this noticeboard is, as others have noted above, not a forum of first instance for a content question that should be decided based on what reliable sources say, and not on the opinions of commenters. And most reliable sources on this topic do discuss it in terms of sex assignment, not any of the permutations of "born a man" some commenters are floating. -sche (talk) 04:26, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
• Support the language and Oppose the poll. No !votes should count when posted by editors unable to distinguish sex from gender, for frack sakes. Newimpartial (talk)
• Oppose Sex is not assigned. This language is common in certain circles, which are prominent online, but the majority of people are probably not familiar with this neologism and we should avoid it. It probably should be defined outside of the lead though because of it's use online. Natureium (talk) 14:49, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

  Are you suggesting that Wikipedia articles should avoid using terminology because the majority of people are probably not familiar with it? These terms are from the article Woman: medial labial consonants, gametes, karyotype, 47-XXX, mitochondrial DNA, pre-eclampsia, and sub replacement fertility rate; I wonder how many people are familiar with all of them. Should they be avoided too? The idea, of course, is silly. Encyclopedias are full of expressions we don't know; that's partly why we have encyclopedias, to find out what they mean. And the more technical the article, the more such unfamiliar terms there will be. And that's fine. In a paper encyclopedia, you might have to flip back and forth and read other articles in order to understand a technical topic. Luckily for us, in an online encyclopedia we have hyperlinks, which makes the process that much easier. Articles on transgender topics are still considered specialized or difficult and employ technical jargon. For the general reader, it's just an unavoidable fact that much of the terminology will be unfamiliar, and require some time consulting footnotes or other articles to understand some of the expressions. If we dumb down the article so they are never exposed to them, we will be doing a disservice to readers who came here to learn. With respect to this particular expression, even Simple Wikipedia's articles on transgender and Sex assignment use it. If it can use this expression, we can hardly expect en-wiki to do it simpler than Simple. Mathglot (talk) 07:55, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

• Object This isn't an NPOV question at all. It's a matter of settled science. The sex/gender distinction is not a subject of debate among experts. Nor is the definition of "transgender" (pdf). This RFC set up also seems destined to confuse users - since "oppose" in the first half section roughly the same thing as "support" in the second. Nblund ^talk 15:34, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • It's not asking about the science of it. I don't think that's in dispute here. They're asking if it should be described as "assigned at birth" or described in some other way that make be easier for people to understand who aren't familiar with that terminology. If I hadn't heard that before, I would think that "assigned" meant that the biological sex of the person was in question and had to be assigned (i.e. some for of intersex condition). Natureium (talk) 15:49, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Clarity isn't an NPOV issue, and there are plenty of ways to address that that don't require us to deviate from the language typically preferred by experts. As for the intuitive interpretation of the term: sex assignment is usually an educated guess based on the appearance of a baby's external genitalia. The language makes it sound like sex is ambiguous because sex is, in fact, somewhat ambiguous. Nblund ^talk 21:00, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Sex is biological and gender is social. I think we are all in agreement here. Sex is rarely ambiguous. Sex is often defined by presence of a functional SOX9 gene. There's not much ambiguity there. Natureium (talk) 22:21, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

That's really an oversimplification, but my point is that we generally don't examine the chromosomes of a healthy baby before writing a sex on the birth certificate, we assign a sex by eyeballing it. This is error prone and unscientific, and the language reflects that fact. Nblund ^talk 01:36, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

• Procedural oppose as per reasons already given by other editors. John B123 (talk) 16:05, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose: Why not "Born as a man", "Born with male organs", or something like that? Cambalachero (talk) 16:47, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

  It implies that trans women were men; not only as opposed to women in general, but as opposed to women with the wrong body; before the surgery. Thus it implies that they were born cisgender and points toward the idea that being transgender is something that works by choice. Georgia guy (talk) 17:19, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

That's because they physically were. Trying to suggest that they weren't is going to be extremely confusing. e.g. Why would someone have a surgery to become male if they were already male? Because they were born with female anatomy. Natureium (talk) 17:34, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose (edit conflict) with the exception of individuals who were born with ambiguous genitalia. If/when the preponderance of reliable sources start using this terminology then we can follow the general usage. Unless biology has changed radically sex is what it is while the social construct of gender may be evolving in out society. Besides not, to my knowledge, being typically used in the bulk of the developmental biology or obstetrics literature, the phrase "assigned male at birth" simply leaves those of our readers who are not on the bleeding edge of the new social consciousness going "huh??". Jbh ^Talk 16:58, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Per JBH, with rare medical exceptions, people are not 'assigned' at birth, and I would be interested to see a MEDRS compliant source (that is unrelated to those exceptions) that agrees. Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:23, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

  Sure; here are a few: (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30). Shall I give you some more, in batches of one hundred, say? Mathglot (talk) 19:18, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Um... first, not all of those sources actually are MEDRS compliant... and second, of those that are MEDRS compliant, only a few use the word “assigned”.

My point... If you are going to play the “Here is a long list of sources that agree with me” game... please at least make sure the sources actually support what you say. And remember, It is always more effective to make your point with a few well chosen examples, than to try to overwhelm your opponent with lots of poorly chosen ones. Just saying. Blueboar (talk) 22:00, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

I started with number 1, expecting to go through all of these because I thought it would be interesting, but even the first one was not what most of these comments are saying. The argument raised was that assignment is only needed in the case of unclear sex, which the article was specifically not addressing. Natureium (talk) 22:19, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

The term is used more often in those contexts because it tends to be a matter of dispute in those cases, but it applies to the classification of infants int general. If you want more sources, you can check American Psychological Association, the World Health Organization, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and the Royal College of Psychiatrists. All sources discuss "assigned sex" in the context of transgender and cisgender people. Nblund ^talk 15:00, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

• Object. This is not the place to seek to change content that is based on the most reliable and up-to-date sources, has local consensus across various articles among editors who have familiarity with the sources and their terminology, and would be quite stable were it not for the parade of SPAs, sockpuppets, meatpuppets, and sleepers that appears sporadically to disrupt the project and waste everyone's time. That some people are unfamiliar with the terminology appropriate to the topic isn't terribly germane; we don't dumb down content to placate the masses, we use wikilinks and, where appropriate, inline explanations. And we most certainly don't dumb down content because some people—or even most people—don't like it; that would be a misapplication of NPOV. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 17:43, 18 June 2018 (UTC) Further note: there is also something a little bit off about starting a straw poll where "oppose" means essentially the opposite of what it did in the related thread just above. It's as though someone didn't like the way things were going in the discussion, so they asked a different question in the hope of a different result. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 17:46, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
• Weak Support Whilst it is generally true that assigned an "actual birth" gender are the same it is not always the case. To thus assume that someone who is transgender was (say) male at birth when there was a slim change they may have been an Hermaphrodite or have some hormonal imbalance.Slatersteven (talk) 08:58, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose, nowhere does it say that content issues cannot be decided on a noticeboard, on the contrary, it is common that the result of deiscussions here result in the changing of wording of articles. I object to "assigned at birth" as a euphemism. With the exception of Intersex individuals (which is a different issue to trasgenderism), sex is not assigned, it is simply a fact of nature evidenced by a persons chromosomes/body morphology/sex organs/etc. If that person decides to transition to a new gender, that's all well and good, but their sex was not 'assigned', its just what their sex was before they decided to transition. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)} 09:13, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Support The problem seems to be the ambiguity of the term "assign". I think in general usage, assignment involves an active decision about categorization, whereas determining sex at birth is a process of recognizing an existing category (from Sex assignment#History: The discernment of an infant's sex is almost universally considered an observation or recognition of an inherent aspect of a baby.). Gender can be "assigned" but sex cannot. I think the most clear way to present this would be something along the lines of the Encyclopedia Brittanica's definition, to avoid ambiguity between sex and gender, or between different uses of the term "assign". The key distinction between a trans person and a cis person is whether their gender identity and their biological sex at birth align in the way traditionally associated. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 11:27, 19 June 2018 (UTC) Never mind, I've realized there's an obvious flaw in my reasoning. "Assigned x at birth" may sound odd from the perspective of the usual meaning of "assigned" but it does appear to be the language used by medical sources when it comes to determining an infant's sex. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 22:37, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - there are two problems with the phraise... first is the potential for confusion over the use of the word “assigned” (as several others have noted)... second is the issue of whether this assignation (if it exists) occurs at “birth”. The fact is, the majority of parents are told the gender of their child well BEFORE birth. This indicates that the entire phrase is flawed jargon. Blueboar (talk) 13:30, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
• Object to poll I’m not clear what this is meant to achieve. If we are discarding the wording found in reliable sources as “jargon”, presumably we will replace it with something cobbled together from our own inexpert opinions on sex and gender issues. What specific wording is being proposed to replace it?--Trystan (talk) 14:28, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Um... no. The Wikipedia community is perfectly capable of reaching a consensus that wording “X” is rejected ... without agreeing on a wording “Y” to replace it. If X is rejected, then X is rejected... regardless of what replaces it.

In fact, nothing requires us to replace it (at all). If we can’t reach a consensus on the definition of “trans woman”, one option is to simply NOT define it. Intentionally OMIT a definition, and trust that the reader will know what we are talking about without definition. Blueboar (talk) 16:05, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

And that would serve our readers how? I mean, I love our readers, but I don't trust all of them to know that the Earth is round. The more esoteric a topic (and transgender topics are definitely still in that category, even among many of our First World readers), the more important it is that we not make assumptions about what people know. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 20:22, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

• Comment: While assigned female/male at birth is used in many transgender-friendly sources (presumably to avoid offense), academic studies on disorders of sex development make it clear that said assignment is generally consistent with the actual sex of the person (although for the general population and not for transgender populations in particular). I'm not sure if this constitutes WP:SYNTH but it might be a justification to use phrasing such as "born female/male" in place of "assigned female/male at birth". Taylan (talk) 16:11, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

  Object to "born female/male". Taken literally, it is a variant of the statement that all people are born cisgender and that transgender people only become transgender by choice. Georgia guy (talk) 17:05, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

No, it means people are born a specific sex. Which is how it works. It does not in any way suggest that being transgender is a choice. Natureium (talk) 23:04, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

• Object per Georgia guy. I think I am starting to understand the problem the NPOVN editors are having. The current, reliable sources reflect the reality that while "biological sex" may be intended as an objective fact, what actually happens is that infants are assigned to a sex category by a combination of medical professionals, parents and others, and this is a cultural process: the anatomy cannot be interpreted and made significant without culture. But I don't think this perspective is understood by many editors here, in spite of its prevalence in the RS. Newimpartial (talk) 18:08, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

• Support keeping the definition with a reference to sex assignment. The idea of sex assignment is clear and precise in a way that phrases like born male are not, it is used in RS and is a long established in medicine and sociology. In general I prefer accurate phrasing and if there are concerns the phrase is confusing to readers it can be followed with quick definitions. Rab V (talk) 18:58, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
• Support - assigned male/female at birth (or infanthood) is the term used in the literature. In most cases the assignment is obvious. In a minority of cases (intersex, other conditions, and mishaps) it is not obvious anatomically (and in relation to comments above - xy gene tests are not so simple... See Foekje Dillema, XY gonadal dysgenesis, Androgen insensitivity syndrome). In other cases the assignment does not match the psychological identification. Assigned is neutral terminlogy that skirts around whether the assignmetn is/was correct or incorrect (treating the fact that this was the assignment) - and is the term generally used.Icewhiz (talk) 19:17, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
• Note NBlunds comment is one of the only ones here that directly references the language reliable sources use. "If you want more sources, you can check American Psychological Association, the World Health Organization, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and the Royal College of Psychiatrists. All sources discuss assigned sex in the context of transgender and cisgender people." I'd also add the American Medical Association to that list. I think this gives a lot of clarity on what language high quality sources use and I find that extremely compelling. The other side's arguments seem based more off own point of views, and some show they don't understand the concept of sex assignment and are mischaracterizing it. Rab V (talk) 19:19, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
• Support - per Icewhiz. Also I wanted to note that after I looked for citations, I found that under the World Health Organizations definition of transgender they use the term " assigned male at birth" when talking about transwomen. American Academy of Pediatric has also used the term when talking about transwomen. My point here is that the term seems to be backed by several very notable health organizations, when I actually went to look for what authorities in the field have said. ShimonChai (talk) 19:42, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Really need a broader discussion

While the community has already achieved consensus on how to handle individuals that would fall into this area of LGBTQ/gender identity, the above shows that there's a clear split on how to handle generalized topics like trans woman. This is probably because editors are coming from two different broad schools of thought here. There's clearly a group from women's/gender studies along with the sources for that, and then the other side are coming from the established medical field, where WP:MEDRS is a principle here. This is no way to suggest that the ideas of gender identity should be treated as fringe as MEDRS is set up to normally handle, only that we basically have two different fields covering the same topic, one long-established, one rather new, and there's a conflict of terms in play here, and we're pitting well-established concepts of human biology against reliable content from experts in the field of gender studies. We should recognize neither side is wrong, but they present a challenge of which way we should be presenting this material. This is a NPOV problem, though encompasses many other concepts in policy too.

That means, to me, we should have a broader discussion not so much on the point this discussion started with, but on how we handle the intersection of these sources on generalized articles (not about any specific person or group). That includes whether GENDERID should apply to generalized articles, how to write these articles for a global audience to be crystal clear in explaining the concept, and how to deal with the conflicting intersection of sources. I do not recommend this here, this is something to handle at WP:VPP to get wider audience on the matter.

I only post this to see if this makes sense as the next step. Note this would be a broad RFC (not like the above section on the question of "assigned at birth", but which terminology should we prefer and other related questions. --Masem (t) 20:17, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

It's not entirely clear to me which "side" you are calling the "women's studies" side and which one you think is the MEDRS side. MEDRS and other high-quality sources on this topic with which I am familiar generally use language like "sex assignment", while much of the argumentation in favour of wordings like "born a man" seems to come from people, including folks interested in gender studies, who disfavor MEDRS in favor of more pop-culture-y sources about sex and gender that more reliable sources highlight the oversimplisticness of.

Before the article on Chelsea Manning was renamed, editors spent time gathering sources on a subpage of that article's talk page, seeking to clearly determine which name was more common; perhaps it would be useful to similarly gather sources to determine what wordings reliable sources most commonly use with regard to these topics. (Or perhaps it would be a massive open-ended time-suck.)

-sche (talk) 21:45, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

By MEDRS, I'm speaking towards the sources that are based on physiology, rather that the psychology around gender identify, and its more than just the issue of "sex assignment"/"born a man/woman". It goes back to the original point, such as which definition of "woman" can we start with. By necessity, the whole of gender identify is based on the notion of overriding the normal medical definition of certain terms to be more respectful of individuals, but as I pointed out before, as a reference work, we have to be careful with such situations since globally, these concepts are not readily accepted. Hence the need for a larger policy discussion on which direction to take. --Masem (t) 22:00, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Has anyone looked at sources? Whether MEDRS or just RS, the language of "sex assignment at birth", as well as "birth sex" and "natal sex", are easily found. But the former is indeed used by medical organizations. American Psychological Association, American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, World Health Organization, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, American Academy of Pediatrics, and a ton of academic medical research ([10]) to list a few. Unless folks can point to sources, preferably contemporary ones to best reflect the current language use, all these !votes are pointless and based only on opinion, not on NPOV. EvergreenFir (talk) 22:10, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Don't get too hung up on just the definition of "sex assignment", that's part of the issue. The issue is NPOV in an unusual sense: We nominally want to respect the gender identity of identifiable persons (from previous consensus) , but when it comes to general terms, trying to apply that same respect will lead to significant confusion due to differences in the definition of words between established medical practice and gender studies. I see buried in the discussions above that not respecting the class of individuals that would fall under the transwomen/transmen is seen as not being neutral towards these persons, so there is the NPOV here, or at least figuring out the balance of viewpoints here. --Masem (t) 22:26, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I'm "hung up" on it because it's being "debated" above. OP's is related, and as I said above I honestly don't care too much between the two wordings. I'm not sure which neutrality issue generally you are seeing, but I see a concerted effort by folks who wish to move away from what is clearly mainstream language in reference to and in description of transgender people. EvergreenFir (talk) 22:43, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

I know it's discussed above, but its clear to me we need to discuss the larger issue of how to approach generalized articles on these category of people, balancing respect for these people (a core part of gender studies), and straight-up clarity for our readership. You can't answer the question about sex assignment property until we know where we stand on the broader issue. --Masem (t) 22:47, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

I don’t agree that there is a distinction between established medical practice and gender studies along the lines of what you are suggesting. For example, the concept of sex assignment was used in medical journals long before anything resembling modern gender studies existed. It initially referred to sex assignment of intersex individuals. Its application to trans individuals isn’t a gender studies euphemism; it’s a continuation of that medical tradition. Specifically, it’s a way to avoid making unsupported, unscientific claims about the causes of transsexuality when those causes are poorly understood. (e.g., if the causes are biological in nature, describing a trans woman as being born “biologically male” is inaccurate.)--Trystan (talk) 22:41, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

• Reply to Masem I think that would be a sensible next step. The aim of the straw poll above was to determine whether the terminology had broad support or whether it presented a problem for a general readership, and I think the poll demonstrates that there is a problem. Yes, I take on board that this terminology is part of the "language set" of social science and gender studies, but general encyclopedias such as Britannica and dictionaries such as Merriam Webster tend to avoid it, mainly because they understand they are introducing people to these concepts and terms. We are not arguing that this terminology should be completely excluded but these concepts need to be defined in broad, easy to understand, English, especially in article leads. It seems to me this is specifically what WP:JARGON is supposed to prevent. Just focusing on one sentence in one article doesn't really address the problem, so we need to be striving for a general principle i.e. when defining something in this topic area, we should perhaps look to general texts rather than specialist ones for appropriate language. That is the sort of discussion I would prefer to see. Betty Logan (talk) 22:41, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

you have yet to provide any sources from any related area of study like gender studies, sociology, psychology, medicine, childhood development, etc. Which support your claim that this language is inappropriate, too technical, or not neutral. EvergreenFir (talk) 22:46, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Sources aren't needed to understand that trying to implicitly have "woman" mean "one that identifies as woman" instead of "a human female" in an article without any other context is a clear problem for us, and one not clearly resolved. And that's the tip of the iceberg here of what I can see going on looking at the above discussion and the talk page there. --Masem (t) 22:52, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

You're begging the question here. The sources EvergreenFir cited above all on the the medical/biology side. You mention the use of the term "woman" above, but "woman" doesn't have a precise medical definition, as far as I can tell. The assumption that "woman" and "man" are synonymous among lay people or non-westerners with biological sex is also dubious. Nblund ^talk 23:04, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

The definition of "woman" that means "one who identifies as a women" is a very young concept, contrast that to the long-established meaning of "human female" - and that's the English meaning, where gender studies have the most advancement. This is common sense that the bulk of the world is going to presume long-standard meanings over the ones preferred by gender studies. Mind you, in time, that could change (At one point until the early 20th century, we had certain words that were considered politically correct to call African-Americans, that's clearly changed), but common sense is clear right now we're not there yet. --Masem (t) 23:15, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

The more common colloquial definition is probably "a person who appears to be an adult female", and that definition is far from historically or geographically universal. The notion that a person with a female name, female legal status, and female external genitalia might be called a "man" under your suggested definition is probably just as foreign to many non-experts as the notion that self-identity is central. As far as I can tell, you're the only person who is citing gender studies, and but haven't provided any sources that point to any meaningful disagreement between medical and social sciences on this issue. It seems like this is more a question of dictionary definitions vs. the definitions preferred by relevant experts. In that dispute, there's really no question that Wikipedia policy favors expert sources. Nblund ^talk 00:44, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

How does their definition suggest that? That's not even how the scientific would necessary define sex. There is a difference between chromosomes and the genes on those chromosomes, and the expression of those genes (not "expression" is a social science way, it's an actual thing). If they have a female body, I find it hard to believe that they would, to use your preferred terminology, be "assigned male at birth". Natureium (talk) 01:11, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

You can read the entry I linked to: she didn't meet the IOC definition of a biological female because she had a Y chromosome, although she was obviously a woman by any normal definition of the term. Nblund ^talk 13:37, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Oh. That's a sporting authority, that's not a medical definition. Natureium (talk) 14:48, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

No one has provided a medical definition of a "woman" yet, despite several claims that there is a disagreement between the medical and social science definitions of the terms. The closest I can come are the 8 criteria listed here, which include both gender identity and presentation alongside chromosomes and genitalia. Nblund ^talk 16:47, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

This goes back to the core issue: are we talking "woman" by sex or by gender. If by sex, then a medical definition is going to follow the accepted biological one, which is a human female, and that's going to be based principally on what genitalia they have (though by chromosomes there can be exceptional cases outside that). If by gender, then that's where identity comes into play. Thus when we have a very general article about issues related to trans- persons and other gender identity groups, we have to be clear on context on the meaning of words. While we can absolutely ignore the "sex" based definitions on specific individual pages (per GENDERID), these general pages need a high degree of clarity for all readers. Hence a need for the discussion of how to handle these topics --Masem (t) 17:38, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

You haven't provided a biological definition of "woman" either, and the biological definition of 'female' isn't primarily based on external genitalia. Clarity is great, but staging an extended debate about a non-existent conflict between medicine vs. gender studies or imagined medical definitions of words doesn't clarify anything. I promise I'm not Sea-Lioning you here: you're making an assertion about some some supposedly well understood bio-medical definition of "woman" that you haven't been able to source, and I suspect it doesn't actually exist. Nblund ^talk 18:37, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm speaking on common knowledge and common sense. A biological definition of "woman" would be "a human female" (same as the main English definition) and of that, a female would be "member of the species that produces ova" and/or "gives birth to offspring". And yes, I am aware that "sex" itself may have multiple differences if you are talking physiology (what organs a person has), chromosome make-up, and more (eg this 2015 paper that has raised some skepticism in the area) that could create a "spectrum" of biological sex rather than the binary approach; this does not seem to be bad research.
But, and this is key: from strictly the biological sex standpoint, these are extremely novel concepts that haven't yet gained widespread scientific acceptance, though not necessary refuted as fringe science. That's where things like MEDRS requires us to be careful with how we present this information, since we're not yet had a scientific reasons to treat "woman"/"man" from the "sex" standpoint as anything but biological with limited exceptions. If the broad, global scientific community comes to accept that biological sex has a similar spectrum as gender identity, then things would be different. I personally believe, from observations of general sources, that while there is general acceptance that gender identity is clearly a spectrum and not binary (at least, in most countries), the scientific community and the world as a whole has yet to accept that biological sex is a spectrum, and per our policies, we're supposed to stick with this in areas of science.
But this argument is getting to the weeds, about the question of a larger RFC. There's clearly a conflict between traditional views, current scientific stances, and the concerns of those in gender studies alongside WP policies that is not easily answered by any discussion here. Its basically taking on the debate that, from the earlier Salon article I posted, that dictionaries are seeing in how to define these terms to reflect these modern ideas. --Masem (t) 19:12, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

To be clear, when I say "provide a definition" I'm asking if you can supply a medical or biological source for a definition of "woman". I strongly suspect this doesn't exist, and I don't think it's productive to start an extended discussion where we both just assert our own "common sense" definitions of the word.Nblund ^talk 22:23, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Given the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia, how could our approach to defining a topic such as trans woman be anything other than canvassing and compiling the definitions given in reliable sources? There is room to move using that approach. E.g., This Lancet article uses a definition similar to that proposed at the top of this discussion: “a person assigned male at birth who identifies as a woman or in similar terms”. But the approach of the above sections is that we should challenge the RS definitions, discarding elements we don’t like or that run contrary to public opinion polls. It sets us off on a path of original research and endless conflict.--Trystan (talk) 19:08, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

The issue above was the omission of the "identity" part in putting the word "woman" in context, as to understand it is the gender-identity definition, rather than the biological-sex based definition that most of the rest of the world would assume to mean. Adding the precision language, while may be insensitive to those that are trans-women, is in line with meeting our global readership. Now, Lancet has the identity part, which is fine, but I suspect if you compile the RSes that define the world, most which will come from those involved in gender studies, you will find a large number that might omit the identity part, on the basis that in their field, "woman" implies "identifies as a woman" (eg , showing respect for those that are trans-). That creates a conflict for us to present the definition presented by RSes. --Masem (t) 19:16, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Masem, I will suggest that before taking this to the VP the question is sketched out here first. We don't want to ask the wrong question, and we don't want to ask it in a way that either side feels it is "loaded" to advantage one side of the argument. Betty Logan (talk) 23:28, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I would definitely make sure we work out one or two simply-presented questions, and establish the goals of the RFC before posting. I still see this present section as figuring out the shape of those questions. --Masem (t) 00:22, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

I would support this idea. There is clearly a gap between the medical concept of transgender and the social/women's studies concept of transgender. People are really trying to push a scientific issue into a social issue. Natureium (talk) 23:09, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

@Natureium: what gap do you refer to? I provided all medical and scientific sources and I see no gap. EvergreenFir (talk) 23:41, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

• Note: I have notified three WikiProjects—Women, Gender studies, and Medicine—of this discussion. Someone else had notified LGBT studies already. If anyone is aware of other relevant WikiProjects whose participants might bring relevant insight or experience to the discussion, please let them know. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 03:00, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Straw poll for "born male"

In the straw poll for "assigned sex" terminology, there were 10 opposers, 6 supporters, and 6 objections. After some additional discussions, attention on this issue seems to have dissipated. (No contributions since 10 days.) To continue the discussion, this is the first of two steps I'm intending to take. First let's see how much support or opposition there is to using the wording born male when referring to trans women in the lead section of the trans woman article.

Rationale: I suspect there will be a similar, almost half-half split of support vs. opposition/objection, as there was a near half-half support/objection vs. opposition with "assigned sex" terminology. This will leave us paralysed as there is no third alternative I can think of, which both sides would agree on. As such, step 2 is to ask those who opposed "assigned sex" terminology (and presumably supported "born male" terminology) to reconsider their decision, as 1) there seems to be no third alternative, 2) while they may not like it as much as "born male," they probably prefer it over no change being made to the trans woman lead section at all (which already uses "assigned sex" terminology), and 3) it's actually quite well-sourced as Mathglot demonstrated somewhere above with a massive list of citations. Once we have consensus on "assigned sex" terminology, I hope we can re-evaluate support/opposition to the change I proposed at the beginning of this discussion. In short: to those who feel uneasy with "assigned sex" terminology, I would ask whether they would like my proposed change to be made, or whether they'd rather discuss this topic for weeks only to lose interest and ultimately leave the lead section of the trans woman article in its current state. But anyway, let's focus on step 1 now. Taylan (talk) 18:22, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

• oppose "born male" as the language is unsourced and irrelevant to a gender identity article. Newimpartial (talk) 18:28, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

• comment I don't know why you are prolonging this discussion. The reason, in your words "attention on this issue seems to have dissipated", is that people have had their say. You wanted to change the wording of the lead of the article Transwomen to suit your POV, against the wishes of others. When you failed to get support on the talk page, you brought the discussion here. Having again failed to get a consensus to change it, you still won't accept it. It's time to draw a line under the matter and move on. --John B123 (talk) 18:47, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

• "Born male" is, unsurprisingly, not used by many reliable sources (is it used by any that would meet MEDRS-type standards?) because it is not neutral, compared to the more accurate and longstanding "assigned" language that reliable sources do use; for those reasons, one should not use it. Moreover, as John suggests, one should probably step away from the horse... -sche (talk) 19:01, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Born Male - Primarily since RSes do not use it. I'll note that some find this term offensive - but I don't give that much weight. What is of weight, is that determining who is "male or female" is a non-binary situation in human (and non-human) sexuality. In 97% of cases it is straightforward. In a small minority it is not, however there is a significant intersection between these minority of cases and trans-people - in particular, there are ambiguous cases which are assigned male/female at birth - at times (often in the past) - undergoing surgery during infanthood/childhood to change the ambiguous manifestation to the assignment - who identify (at some later stage of life when they are able to express themselves) as the sex opposite to the assignment. In this subset of cases - referring to the ambiguous gender identity at birth as "born male" or "born female" is technically incorrect. See for instance: Ambiguous genitalia, gender-identity problems, and sex reassignment, Sex assignment for newborns with ambiguous genitalia and exposure to fetal testosterone: attitudes and practices of pediatric urologists. (interestingly - noting difference in opinion between physicians for sex assignment on the same case type - For 46XY cloacal exstrophy, two thirds favored the male sex.Icewhiz (talk) 19:48, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
• Comment Clearly the poll above demonstrates there is no consensus for the terminology currently in use in these articles. That said I think this poll is misguided (do you honestly think this poll will produce a consensus for "born male"?). I support a new discussion as advocated by Masem at the Village Pump. Rather than focusing on wording at one specific article I would like to see a general principle emerge whereby we define topics on Wikipedia using the same neutral language that is also used in other general readership texts (such as Britannica, Merriam-Webster and Oxford Dictionary). Betty Logan (talk) 20:27, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Betty Logan no, if you read my rationale you would have noticed that I don't expect this poll to form a consensus. I thought it would be good to have it out of formality and for clarity. That's because the majority opposed assigned sex terminology, but that terminology is used currently in the article; my intention was to make it clear to those who opposed assigned sex terminology that there won't be a consensus for "born male" either. After they acknowledge that, hopefully they will turn to a more important discussion, such as whether the trans woman article should or shouldn't claim that transwomen are literally women, which is a strong ideological position. Taylan (talk) 11:12, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

• Strongest oppose to this tendentious disruptive nonsense. This is beyond equine abuse. Until you provide some basis other than your personal preferences, it's hard to take any of this seriously. Especially when we must neutrality reflect sources (WP:5P2 and WP:NPOV). To reiterate my point from earlier, "assigned (fe)male at birth" is used by all the major professional and governmental organizations I can think remotely relevant to this: American Psychological Association, American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, World Health Organization, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, American Academy of Pediatrics. EvergreenFir (talk) 06:11, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
• oppose It all depends on context, but given that there is some evidence that (in a few cases admittedly) assigned birth sex was in fact erroneous to some degree I am opposed to a blanket assumption that because someone was assigned a make sex they were born male.Slatersteven (talk) 11:17, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Broader questions to be asked

In considering in opening an RFC at VPP to answer broader questions related to this, I think there are two fundamental questions:

1. Does GENDERID apply to general articles related to trans-people and concepts (such as trans woman) that are not specifically about named individuals or groups? (Named individuals/groups may be mentioned in these general articles as, say, examples or attributed quotes, but the articles are not specifically about individual people or groups).
2. In articles where GENDERID does not apply, and otherwise reference concepts around biological gender and gender identity, should we assume that our readership will recognize "woman" to mean "identifying oneself as a woman" (and same with "man" and any other related terms) or do we need specific clarity to differ between the biological and ideological meaning?

Please do not answer these here. I'm trying to suggest neutral questions that capture the problem that can be answered Yes or No (but of course room for in-betweens). I'm looking for input if these are neutral, simple, fair questions to ask for a wider VPP.

I know there's a deeper question on the subtle differences between "born", "identified at birth" "biologically" "genetically" , etc. I think that's far out of scope until we get an answer to both of the above. --Masem (t) 23:30, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Comment there is nothing neutral about characterizing the meanings of "woman" in question here as "biological" vs. "ideological". Better terms might be "biological" vs. "sociological" or "cultural" (the latter in the anthropological sense), or simply "sex" vs. "gender". The specific question at stake here seems to be whether readers will accept the gender identity meaning of woman (which is widely documented and referenced, including in Woman) as the relevant intended meaning in an article on a gender identity. Newimpartial (talk) 23:37, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

To stay neutral, I was trying to avoid framing the second question as what "gender identity" editors would want. I'm asking, in no other context, do readers/editors understand the "identify as..." meaning. But again, this starts with whether these general articles fall under GENDERID. --Masem (t) 23:50, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

I recognize that you want the discussion to be more general, though I am not sure that is in fact advantageous. But in any event, you will never frame a discussion in a neutral way while using loaded terms like "ideological", which is why I provided so many alternatives. Newimpartial (talk) 23:54, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Given your framing of things here (which another user has pointed out the loaded language of: namely that despite how you present things, gender identity seems to have a biological basis, and the ideology that external anatomy should overrule how people present and are treated by others is just that—an ideological POV), and your loaded framings of things in the discussion above which I pointed out problems with, it seems like you may be having difficulty stepping back from your own point of view enough to be able to present the issue neutrally.

I also question if a "broader" discussion is useful: how many articles are actually affected? It seems like the dispute is about [[trans woman]] and [[trans man]]. And your question seems to be whether articles about gender identities should use 'gender' senses of terms, or 'sex' senses. It would be confusing, not to mention unsupported by most of the reliable sources on the topic I'm familiar with, for an article titled "trans women" to devolve to calling them "people" and contrasting them with "women"; at a minimum, one would need to clarify "women assigned female at birth" or the like, and clarify that trans men were or were not intended to be included under that umbrella.

If more than just a handful of the same users who've been beating this horse think continuing this discussion is a good idea, which so far does not seem to be the case, then I'll be happy to help workshop possible RFC questions' wordings. But so far, the discussion seems to be petering out. -sche (talk) 22:27, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

You speak of "a handful of users" but there are more people here who oppose the current wording in the trans woman article than those who support it (10 vs 6), or almost as many if you count the procedural oppositions in the first straw poll as "support" (10 vs 12). Clearly, the current lead section of the trans woman article is in line with one of two contrasting positions that are both well-represented on Wikipedia. (And one is much stronger represented in the general population, as the Pew Research poll that was linked a while ago. The position held in the current lead section is the minority position.) Taylan (talk) 11:18, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Pew is not a valid citation when it comes to parts of Wikipedia that are about established facts, on either side, you shouldn't advocate for a research poll of the general public to dictate what is and isn't true, what is and isn't the minority or majority position shouldn't be what this is orientated on. The major health organizations seem to be neutral, and use the term assigned male and birth. ShimonChai (talk) 14:59, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

For anyone who is unaware, EvergreenFir, Rivertorch, Newimpartial, -sche, Rab V are all on the same ideological "team." They are unwilling to compromise even when provided with reasonable sources. This discussion has become very sided tracked and should merely answer the question of whether or not the definition needs to be changed. It seems that there is general support to do so. Not WP:Aspersions, just an observation. Userwoman (talk) 02:03, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Legacy section in Nortel article

I have started a discussion on the "Legacy" section" in the Nortel article, regarding the appropriateness of referring to a specific company. I notified WikiProject Companies and WikiProject Telecommunications but so far no one has contributed to the discussion. Input in the thread on the Nortel discussion page is welcome. isaacl (talk) 01:05, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Additional contributors to assist in forming a consensus are welcome. isaacl (talk) 04:16, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

It's not NPOV, it's a COI I believe. 68.238.148.138 looks like an E-MetroTel corporate IP address to me. Shritwod (talk) 22:30, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm aware of potential conflict of interest issues; however, I prefer to focus on the basic question on whether or not the content is appropriate for the article, which is a due weight/neutral point of view question. isaacl (talk) 00:08, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Fountain (Duchamp)

Reliable but recent (since roughly 2014) sources have put forward the theory that Fountain (Duchamp) was the creation of another artist than Duchamp. This has been the subject of a recent burst of media activity, e.g. in BoingBoing and The Independent. Some of the editors on the talk page at that article insist that (although it is described in the body of the article) this theory must be kept out of the lead until it becomes the consensus of the art world as a whole. Additional opinions welcome. Please contribute at Talk:Fountain (Duchamp), not here. —David Eppstein (talk) 16:56, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Including section on racist Ron Paul tweet in Ron Paul article

Hi,

Racist tweets by Ron Paul were the subject of widespread press from reliable sources. Including: CNN, CBS, NYTimes, ABC News, The Independent, Daily Mail, The Hill

Eight editors (including myself) have worked on the section, and only one has removed it (not counting anonymous IPs with 1-2 edits in their history). The removing editor, User:Red_Rock_Canyon, is very new (account created on July 1st) and writes that the information is "insignificant", "undue" and "completely irrelevant", and said that consensus is now required to re-add it. Please advise? Drsmoo (talk) 13:41, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

While it definitely got widely covered, keep in mind we are WP:NOT#NEWS and try to avoid recentism. Its better to judge, in a week or a month or a few months, if that tweet had any impact on Paul's standing. As an encyclopedia we are not required to post every little gaff that a notable person may do, but should be aware if that created a longer-term issue. The rush to include that does make us look non-neutral from a political standpoint, and UNDUE does not require us to include every widely-covered event if that may affect neutrality. --Masem (t) 13:50, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

It's perfectly fine to include it. This has extensive RS coverage (the Daily Mail is not a RS though). Politicians pushing racism and anti-semitism is obviously of long-term encyclopedic value. This is not a first for Paul either, and in the past he's also blamed racist content written in his name on other people. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:53, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

I have to agree with Masem on this. The issue here is relevance, and it takes a bit of time to see if some stupid comment someone makes on Twitter actually has any relevance. Wait... and if the media is still talking about this in a month, we know it has relevance. If not, then we know it is not worth discussing. Blueboar (talk) 14:38, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

I doubt it will have any effect on his standing in isolation, but it's likely to be mentioned in any future recounting of Paul's weird history of having his name attached to racist statements. Rather than place it in its own section, it could be mentioned in relation to the newsletters controversy: something along the lines of "Paul's newsletters received renewed attention in 2018 after a racist cartoon was posted from his Twitter account. Paul later released a statement saying that a staffer had inadvertently tweeted the image." Nblund ^talk 23:34, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

But, realistically, if that is all of the attention the event drew relative to everything else, we don't need to document it; there are many many other things in Paul's history that have more serious effects or impacts. We have to be aware that in a 24/7 news cycle, just because the media jumps on something doesn't mean it is appropriate for us as a summary work to include. --Masem (t) 04:26, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Foreign relations of France

Significant content, including sourced content, has been continuously removed from the Foreign relations of France article by Aquintero82 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). These content removals may represent a potential lack of neutral point of view regarding the topic, whereby content may be being removed en masse to suppress it from Wikipedia's readers. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 03:26, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Information was added to enhance the content of the France's diplomatic relations. Content that was removed is mentioned in the various individual articles regarding France's bilateral relations. Aquintero82, (talk), 21:30, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Rachel Maddow in conservative politician BLP ELs

I wonder if a Rachel Maddow video segment is ever an appropriate EL? Especially of a controversial, conservative state official. But especially in this case where my removal was reverted. The rationale was that it balances the official campaign site. But I have difficulty with this logic. ☆ Bri (talk) 18:59, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

I've removed it as a BLP issue. It is very inappropriate to use an opinion piece like that as an external link on a biography. It fails WP:EL anyway, as the website is barely indirectly linked to the subject, and the argument the campaign site is giving biased coverage is a non-starter, as WP:EL specifically calls out government bios & campaign pages as an example of where multiple official EL's are allowed. So thats a non-starter. The place for Maddow would be in the prose as a reference, if it passed the requirements of WP:BLP and WP:RS. Only in death does duty end (talk) 19:21, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

There may well be BLP reasons to remove that link... but you did not cite that policy when you boldly removed it. You cited WP:ELPOV, which would not seem to apply; that calls for not skewing the external links toward one opinion, and with the Maddow piece there was a total of one anti-subject opinion link, and certainly the campaign website is pro-subject (and this is not a subject for which opposition is so rare that to reflect it is undue.) That's the reason you got reverted, because your stated reason for deletion was found lacking. Let me suggest that you review WP:ELPOV before you invoke it again. --Nat Gertler (talk) 22:15, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Charlie Engle (marathoner)

This article is advertorial to the point of parody. User:FactsMatter doesn't seem to agree. May benefit from outside input. May also benefit from FactsMatter disclosing whether they have an outside conflict of interest with the subject. GMG^talk 19:31, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Edward S. Herman

This article contains multiple out of context quotes and links to anti-Herman editorials and opinions without context or relevance.

Note:the unsigned comment above was added by Prop9, a new user who has been edit warring at Edward S. Herman to remove cited material. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 00:55, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

The page is still having an edit war: c.f. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Edward_S._Herman&type=revision&diff=850243388&oldid=850086925 . I will be happy to clarify the issues discussed in the talk page and potential WP:COI if that would be helpful. Prop9 (talk) 17:59, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Reproductions of studies or other such publications

A discussion has been started about the handling of Wikipedia articles that are closely aligned reproductions of studies or papers in the public domain. As this topic seems to cross OR and NPOV, this has been published on the OR noticeboard, however I would appreciate the input of editors who normally patrol the NPOV noticeboard. The discussion has started at Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard#Reproductions of studies or other such publications. _pseudonym Jake Brockman ^talk 10:08, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Help needed at Talk:Imran Awan

Really need some help on this one. Just look at the page and you will see what I am having to deal with. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:41, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

91.235.142.81

The IP per WP:DUCK is likely a sock of Apollo The Logician. An investigation was opened, but later closed because it stopped editing just when the investigation started and the edits were too old. The IP was already dormant before when it was warned about disruptive editing, and since administrative measures are preventive, I want to request an action to prevent further disruptive editing, including WP:NOTHERE, edit warring and POV pushing. --Jamez42 (talk) 19:21, 17 July 2018 (UTC)