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January 9

Something about Mount Everest

I don't understand how Mount Everest's prominence is equal to its height. The Mount Everest page only provides one clue—a link to Topographic prominence—but the description there doesn't make sense either. Just because a mountain is the highest point in a continent shouldn't mean its prominence is equal to its height. And Mt. Everest doesn't just drop down to the Indian Ocean, either, because it's hundreds of miles from any significant body of water and there's the huge valley of the Ganges River between them. I measured the prominence on Google Earth and my most optimistic estimate is 4,700 metres (15,400 ft) for the prominence—the place where I measured it, at the junction of the two big glaciers that flow off the south and west sides of the mountain, is at somewhere around 4,160 metres (13,650 ft). I know the real prominence should be somewhere around 3,700 metres (12,100 ft) (but I'm being generous here). I don't think every single anonymous visitor who leaves the Mount Everest article wondering what the real prominence of the mountain is will take the trouble to use Google Earth to search for the prominence. What I mean in summary is that many people—especially aspiring climbers—would want to know how much the mountain rises above the surrounding terrain. Shannon^talk _contribs 02:27, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

The answer to your understandable confusion seems to be that in this context, (Topographic) 'prominence' does not have its general or 'lay' meaning, but is a technical term with a precise definition, and that definition means that the tallest peak on any isolated landmass (island or continent) has a prominence equal to its elevation above sea level. The property you are interested in is instead called "height over base" or "base elevation", and the problem with it is that it is difficult both to define and to measure precisely. As the relevant footnote on the Everest article says:

"The "base" of a mountain is a problematic notion in general with no universally accepted definition. However for a peak rising out of relatively flat terrain, such as Mauna Kea or Denali, an approximate height above "base" can be calculated. For Everest the situation is more complicated, since it only rises above relatively flat terrain on its north (Tibetan Plateau) side. Hence the concept of "base" has even less meaning for Everest than for Mauna Kea or Denali, and the range of numbers for "height above base" is wider. In general, comparisons based on "height above base" are somewhat suspect."

Hope this helps to clarify what I agree is a tricky concept to follow in the Topographic prominence article you had linked to. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 03:07, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks so much for clarifying the answer. I did some research while waiting for answers to the questions I posted on various talk pages, but the idea didn't hit me until I posted here. Now I may suggest putting a "Height over base" parameter in the mountain geobox. The figure listed there would be rough, rounded to a few thousand or a few hundred - such as 3,700 m for Everest - and would not apply to smaller mountains. Just a thought. Shannon^talk _contribs 05:13, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

This would probably need to be discussed at WikiProject Mountains, but although I can see such measurements being of interest, I can also foresee opposition because, with so many "heights above base" values being officially unmeasured and open to interpretation, it might lead to a lot of largely pointless arguments and encourage near or actual Original Research: would calculating 'height above base' from contours on a published map constitute OR? - I'm really not sure. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 06:32, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I think it's really dangerous to put seemingly scientific and precise data into an encyclopedia when the things that you are talking about are so fuzzily defined. IMHO, we should talk about height above mean sea level - and leave it at that. But as you say - this is something to discuss at the relevant WikiProject - where you'll probably find that this has already been discussed and agreed. SteveBaker (talk) 16:13, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

No discussion of "height over base"/"base elevation" (by names or concept) there as far as I can see from the discussion page and archives, Steve. There has been some discussion of prominence and a little about "eminence" (which seemed to be an OR invention - prominence*elevation above sea level - by one of the editors and not the same thing), but nothing on this parameter which, to be fair to Shannon, is something I've seen referred to elsewhere despite having no particular interests in this area. However, I'll leave Shannon to pursue it at WikiProject Mountains if s/he chooses. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 17:29, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

"Eminence" meaning that the mountain's "height over base" is measured from the highest contour line around the mountain that is also connected to another area? For example, if Everest is connected to a neighboring mountain by a 14,000' ridge, then its eminence would be 15,000'.

Sex in the Morning with Morning Breath

Many articles and magazines suggest that sex in the morning when one just wakes up from bed is the most enjoyable due to elevated levels of various hormones. How do people deal with unpleasant morning breath? Or is morning breath not something that affects all people? Acceptable (talk) 03:07, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

It just doesn't, err, come up. More seriously, I think if both people have "morning breath" it is not as big a deal. --Mr.98 (talk) 04:16, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Helpful Household Hint: Keep some mints handy at bedside. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:18, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

And humans are remarkably flexible and adaptable. Lots of options that make morning breath less of an issue. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 08:49, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Try toothpaste. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:35, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

If you can get up to go to the bathroom to get some toothpaste, you may as well use mouthwash and do the job properly. Or were you suggesting you keep a tube near your bed, so as not to have to get up and lose your ... err, mood? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:16, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I recall something David Steinberg once said, and the reference will tell you how long ago this was. He was making fun of movies that show couples making love in the morning before they get up, having "breath like violets", when in reality they would have to "run to the john like Mercury Morris." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:17, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Neither the penis nor the vulva have a sense of smell so there need be no problem. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 23:23, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

So everything's peachy as long as you don't kiss or breathe in each others' faces. Yeh, nothing like morning delight! After that, then you dash like Mercury Morris. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:43, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

haha not sure why this makes me laugh! Brilliant answer! Gazhiley (talk) 23:35, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

That's all very well, but what if your other half insists on clamping their mouth all over your face? What would be worse: having to endure their foulness, or being embarrassed about your own foulness even if they don't seem to mind too much?

Everyone who's ever been born has had morning breath, but we can smell that of others more intensely than we can smell our own. So while we're thinking "Yukk! I wish he/she would get their mouth away from my nose", they're probably thinking the same. Obvious solution: just say to each other, "Yukk! Your breath stinks!". How romantic that would be. Guaranteed to enhance the mood of the occasion.  :) -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 23:47, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

This is one case where if you both have allergies, congestion, etc., and wake up stuffed up, it's a benefit. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:21, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Who cares if you are really in the mood? Also, you don't have to go missionary style and smell each other's breaths. The Great Cucumber (talk) 19:46, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

just do it already and get it over with! --Talk Shugoːː 21:49, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

You could try holding your breath. Mitch Ames (talk) 01:59, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

... but what was the Movie called.

In 1972 there was a fatal train crash involving a school bush in Congers, New York, known as the Gilchrist rail disaster, when a school bus stalled at a level crossing and was struck by an oncoming freight train. A number of students were killed. The NTSB ruled that the bus driver was negligent. I remember a TV movie that I had seen more than once about the incident, but cannot remember the name. In 1980, the movie was due to screen again on New Zealand television, but by a tragic coincidence a similar accident occured in Southland, in which a schoolgirl died, and TV management deemed that showing the movie after that incident might be in poor taste. Does anyone know the name of the movie, since it is not mentioned in the Wiki article about the crash. Thanks. The Russian. C.B.Lilly 05:46, 9 January 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Christopher1968 (talk • contribs)

NB. The article in question is Gilchrest Road, New York crossing accident in case anyone needs it. Nanonic (talk) 11:44, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

"Long Journey Back" (1978), starring Stephanie Zimbalist. [1] on IMDb. Tevildo (talk) 00:42, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I was about to suggest The Sweet Hereafter. Karenjc 00:44, 10 January 2010 (UTC) Ah no, but that was Alton, Texas. Karenjc 00:46, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

It was also made in 1997 - quite tricky for it to be on the TV in 1980. :) Tevildo (talk) 00:47, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your help, but having looked at these movies on IMDB, I see they are not what I am looking for. I may also have gotten wrong the date of the Southland, New Zealand bus and train collision in which the 12 year old girl was killed. It may have been as late as 1983, meaning the movie could have been made as late as that. The one with Stephanie Zimbalist in seems similar, and there was also one made in 1985 called First Steps, in which Judd Hirsch portrayed the famous Dr. Jerrold Petrovsky, who attempted to allow a paralysed girl to walk again after a car wreck. The movie I am trying to find has a scene in which a psychiatrist is sitting in a cafe with one of the young girls who survived, and is eating ice cream, and trying to help her to deal with the guilt she feels about surviving, and the sadness in losing so many friends. I must admit, I assumed this movie was about the Gilchrest crash, because the plot of it, and what did actually happen then over 37 years ago are very sismilar. If any one has any more suggestions, please do not hesitate to say. Thank You. The Russian. C.B.Lilly 07:06, 10 January 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Christopher1968 (talk

Actually, my sincere apologies. I believe Long Journey Back was the movie I saw, since new information about it has come to light, so thanks very much, The Russian Christopher Lilly 10:49, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Paypal and direct debit?

If Paypal allows direct debit from your bank account to transfer money from a buyer directly to a seller, without having to add credit to the PayPal site first(?), then what is the point of having a facility to credit your account in the first place? (They have my bank details) Or does the PayPal account first need to be credited with the appropriate amount? Its been so long since I used PayPal I forgot what I did, and the artificial intelligence in place of a human on the PayPal site is, well, unintelligent and cannot answer this question. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.2.198.9 (talk) 14:27, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

To set up a verified paypal account, paypal send two small amounts of money to your bank account which you must then report back. Without this step, you could concievable enter anyones direct debit information in and have them pay for things. See How do I verify my PayPal account?. Nanonic (talk) 14:47, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

So this is really only a security measure? Does it have any other applications? For example, supposing someone put all their money from their bank account into PayPal and then closed their bank account, could they still purchase items? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.2.198.9 (talk) 15:02, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

If PayPal held your actual cash money that you transferred to them, they would be a fiduciary and would transfer funds under your direction. Presumably your "direction" would be logging in with a password. Getting more money into the PayPal account would be a bit of a trick though, you might need to buy postal money orders and mail them to PP or pay Western Union to do a money transfer into your PP account. However, if you prepay money into your PP account, it is still your money and you can spend it from PP without using a bank account. Franamax (talk) 15:34, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

FWIW I think it's also to do with the speed of transaction - if the money's already in ur paypal act, it will transfer quicker to seller.. If they've gotta take it directly from ur act it's gonna add time, and ur less likely to get positive feedback or at least a lesser feedack if it takes longer... For example the seller wont see your money for at least 6-8 days if it's gotta be taken from a bank account and then transferred to them, 3-5 days if its from a credit card, and within 48 hours if the money's already in your paypal account... This is my experience as a seller through paypal anyway... So I think the variety of methods is to provide choice... Gazhiley (talk) 23:46, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Martini mishap

So I have a stainless steel martini shaker—a Cobbler shaker, to be specific, sort of like the one in the first photograph in the shaker article. I was shaking a frosty martini up last night, and the dang thing fell off the counter. It landed top-end down with a thunk. There are no obvious signs of damage, no breakage.

Here's the tough part. I can't get it open anymore. I think it must of wedged the pieces together just enough to make them damn near impossible to pry apart. They were never very easy to pry apart anyway, especially while the internal contents were cold (metal contracts, etc.), but now that the temperature has stabilized, I still can't make them budge. There is no obvious way for me to try and pry them apart, much less without scratching it up.

Any suggestions for recovering this shaker? It still has its martini contents in it (and now with a load of melted ice), if that helps. --Mr.98 (talk) 15:28, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

What about heating the lid, which should make the rim expand? --TammyMoet (talk) 16:19, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Try WD40. Turn the shaker upside down so the liquid can gain access, and leave a couple of hours.Froggie34 (talk) 16:42, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Such accidents can be the result of having one tee many martoonies. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 23:19, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

You'd think, right? But actually it prevented me from having one! --Mr.98 (talk) 20:49, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Boil the contents. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 09:53, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Update: heating the lid didn't help. Even creating an extreme temperature difference (boiling the top, freezing the bottom) would not budge it at all. WD40 has not yet helped any either. Might try all-out boiling but I think air can escape (some liquid can escape) so that might prevent it from popping off that way. Ugh. What a pain. It is really on there tight—I can't get it to move at all. --Mr.98 (talk) 20:49, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Duct tape is your friend. Seal the gap where the two halves meet, and then set the shaker upright in a deep pan of boiling water. When the contents boil, the top should pop off (perhaps violently, so cover to pot). DOR (HK) (talk) 04:33, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

That's pretty dangerous advice...although it might work. Once the contents (which we know are liquid) boil, the increase in pressure inside might well pop the lid right off. (Although if it's not symmetrically wedged on, you might just get a fizzle of steam along one short stretch of the circumpherence. However, the amount of over-pressure needed to pop the lid might just result in an impressive explosion when the lid does come off - with superheated steam blasting out and an impressive vapor explosion as the vaporized alcohol hits the heat source. So if you really want to consider doing that - you need to be a long way away from anything fragile...like people...and houses...and (especially) me!! No - I honestly don't think this is a good suggestion - sadly.

You could do the reverse - put the thing into a vacuum chamber and pump the pressure down to the point where the internal pressure would pop the lid. It's hardly less dangerous though since the 'overpressure' would be the same.

I think what I would actually do if I were in your position would be to try to create some asymmetry - perhaps by tapping down on one side of the lid with a rubber mallet or something. Once the lid is at an angle to the body you might be able to twist it loose...I don't hold out much hope of that working - but it's the most practical suggestion I can come up with.

If you had a couple of those 'strap wrenches' that they use to remove subborn oil filters from car engines - you could probably use them to grip the lid and body more firmly and thereby get enough leverage to 'unscrew' one from the other. I have one with a rubber strap that would be unlikely to damage your cocktail shaker...but you'd need two of them I think.

SteveBaker (talk) 05:36, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Those are great suggestions: buy a vacuum chamber, hit it or go at it with SteveBaker's car tools. How about drilling a hole in the base and shoving a steel rod through the hole to pop off the lid. Then have a plate welded over the hole. Nobody need see that. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:58, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

I feel distraught that one of my brethren should be suffering in such a manner :( Lemon martini (talk) 15:54, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Wear rubber gloves when trying to pry the two parts apart. Latex examination gloves are fine, or dish-washing gloves. The "grip" is greatly enhanced this way. Bus stop (talk) 16:04, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Get one of those things for opening jars that has something to grip the lid at one end and a long handle, then you can get some leverage on it. If you can start it twisting then it should come loose. You may want to hold the base between your feet so you can get a better grip on it (or use 2 jar openers). --Tango (talk) 17:17, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Having pondered on this for some hours, I think judicious bashing of the stuck top, a la SteveBaker's rubber mallet suggestion, is the more likely avenue. You would want to grasp the body of the shaker in one hand, and try to ensure that the direction of travel of the rubber hammer is in the general direction of opening the thing, rather than closing it. And you might have to be prepared a) to bash away for some time until you get a result and b) for the contents immediately to disgorge themselves onto the floor. --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:26, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

I would say just write off the loss of your martini and make another one in a different shaker. Googlemeister (talk) 22:44, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Update: So I did try boiling it, well aware of the possible dangers and steps were taken to minimize them. Nevertheless, nothing happened. It is on there TIGHT and I'm not sure I can get it hot enough to compensate for that. It will not budge. I tried using a very strong vise (carefully covered so as not to scratch) as a means of trying to deform the lower portion a bit so that some kind of gap could form between the two sections (which I could then use to wedge it out). No progress at all. I've tried some bashing and banging and no dice. Won't budge. There's obviously just enough give that some liquids can get through, over time, but it is otherwise totally immobile. It won't move or twist or anything. It is sealed on there GOOD. I've basically written it off—anything I think I could do that would separate the two pieces would probably damage them to a point that fixing said damage would cost more than the shaker. Oh well. Lesson learned! --Mr.98 (talk) 23:15, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

A Query about White Magic

I am a Christian, and as such believe that any magic, so-called "white" or otherwise, comes from Satan. However, my stepmother has a book entitled A Dictionary of Angels. In the back of this book are several incantations for summoning (supposedly) benevolent angels to do one's bidding. As I cannot believe that an angel that is not fallen would do the bidding of the devil, I am in somewhat of a state of confusion. Can anyone help?

Thank you for your time.

JJohnCooper (talk) 19:32, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Sure. It's all made-up nonsense. There is no such thing as magic (black or white). Angels, devils, satan, santa clause, the easter bunny and god(s) do not exist. My wife insists that she is in fact the tooth fairy - but I'm skeptical about that too). No confusion is necessary - merely a little clear-headed rationalism. SteveBaker (talk) 20:01, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate the response, Steve... but I was kinda hoping for a response which assumes that religious people are NOT raving lunatics. :) JJohnCooper (talk) 20:13, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Ah - sorry. In that case I can't help. SteveBaker (talk) 01:44, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Disregarding SteveBaker's rampant materialism (combined with poor spelling and inability to capitalize), let's actually look at the theology behind this. Angels are certainly part of Christianity, being mentioned in the Bible several times. It's also true that practitioners of magic are condemned, with no distinction made between 'black' and 'white' magic. In Christianity an angel is a direct messenger of God; their presence is frequently equated with God himself. In either case the purpose is to do God's bidding. God sends angels for special purposes. They have great power, slaying thousands in some Bible stories.

Now what is the likelihood that an angel is going to turn up because you spoke correctly some words you read in a book? If you are summoning him for your own purposes, then that's getting dangerously close to blasphemy - trying to use God for your own devices. If you really need an angel, then ask God - God answers prayers and is always listening. He's not going to refuse you something you need just because you don't get the words right. (He may not agree with you on what you need, of course). Also an angel is going to do God's bidding, not yours. DJ Clayworth (talk) 20:15, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

(After multiple edit conflicts) :Ok, guys, enough of the name-calling. This is an encyclopaedia and not a forum. Anyway, to answer the OP's question in a more logical way, where in the Bible did it say that any magic, black or white, was from Satan? I'm sure it did, somewhere or other, but then, why does Jesus start turning water into wine (ok, believers call this a miracle, and for some reason miracles are different from magic, but then intoxicating substances are also mentioned in the bible as being from Satan, so how could it be a miracle that in turning water to wine Jesus made something from Satan to give to the guests of a wedding?) Don't worry, JJohnCooper, the bible is riddled with contradictions all the way through it. I wouldn't trouble myself if I were you. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 20:22, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Just for clarification, I had not intended to try any of the spells, regardless of any responses. KageTora, look at Deuteronomy 18: "Let there not be found among you... a fortuneteller, asoothsayer, chamer, diviner, or caster of spells..." And Clayworth, I have had prayers answered many times. But you're right on one point: Why would an angel come because of some stupid words on a page? However, I now have a new question: Is it possible that those spells would call up a demon in the guise of an angel? JJohnCooper (talk) 20:30, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

KageTora: Magic is different from miracles. The power behind a miracle is from God, and for Magic is from somewhere else. The Bible does not explicitly say that magic is from Satan, but it does condemn its use. I can point you at the places if you like. I'm surprised you didn't find that in your detailed study of the Bible - the one you used to determine that it is full of contradictions.

JJohnCooper, I would think it very unlikely that the words do anything at all. Believing in God does not have to make you ridiculously credulous. DJ Clayworth (talk) 01:14, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

DJ, are you aware that your edit increased the size of the page by exactly 666 bytes? --Trovatore (talk) 01:18, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Also, KageTora, the substance Jesus transformed from water was non-alcoholic wine, as the guests considered it to be of surpassing quality, and the best wines in those days were actually thick, almost syrupy drinks which had no alcohol content. JJohnCooper (talk) 20:32, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Psalm 104: He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth; And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart. That's grape juice?? --Trovatore (talk) 02:22, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

"[T]he best wines in those days were actually thick, almost syrupy drinks which had no alcohol content"? What is your source for this information? Give me a link to a (non-religious) page which states exactly what you have just said. Otherwise, I shall take the words of the bible to be literal, using the word 'wine', which means, 'wine', and not 'fruit juice'. I do understand that as a Christian you will have an answer for everything, but I was just trying to help you in your question. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 21:32, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

You might be a better response if you asked what would the Bible tell me to do if an angel did appear? Would it suggest the angel could be a demon in disguise? Otherwise, what you're actually asking us is akin to asking if magic exists. For the most part, people on this desk are willing to theorise within fictional stories or, indeed, religion, so long as your questions don't directly presume them to be true. Vimescarrot (talk) 21:03, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

All right. To rephrase: Is there anything in classical Jewish or Christian legend or scripture to suggest that a spell for conjuring an angel might actually call up a demon? JJohnCooper (talk) 21:07, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

This is not quite on the mark, but the story of the Witch of Endor might be of interest. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:10, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

That was helpful, Bugs, though that case involved a demon posing as a ghost rather than an angelic spirit. Thanks for the link. JJohnCooper (talk) 21:19, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Blasted edit conflicts... I have read of instances where demonic entities posed as angelic ones, but the concerned individuals had not attempted to summon either. JJohnCooper (talk) 21:13, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

If you take the Bible seriously, there were plenty of non-evil people who did magic. Moses was apparently quite accomplished, and widely considered one of the good guys. So there's no way to believe in the Bible and believe that magic only comes from Satan. The thing is full of examples of God doing magic by himself, and his priests/prophets doing magic (presumably powered by God.) Friday (talk) 21:39, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

God does magic? That's certainly not a biblical assertion. Notwithstanding the dispute between Maimonidies and Nachmonidies on the subject of the existence of magic, God certainly does not perform magic. Magic, according to the aforementioned sages of Jewish thought, consists of incantations uttered in order to call upon the powers of beings that will then allow one to perform said magic -- something God would certainly not do. Much like we strike a match and allow the phosphorus to receive enough friction to ignite the head of a match, without the match determining whether the person holding it is a righteous individual or not, so too does tapping into a higher spiritual plane, as Moses did, not require one to be morally agreeable. Bilaam is one such example of an evil 'magician.' In reality, though, he just knew the metaphysics involved in reaching a higher spiritual plane. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 01:25, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

"Magic, ... consists of incantations ... to call upon the powers of beings that will then allow one to perform said magic." -- That's a circular definition, which doesn't help. For this discussion to have any meaning we really need to define magic (other than by reference to itself). Mitch Ames (talk) 03:50, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I think what the OP is worried about is if, when trying to summon an angel, he could accidentally summon a demon or something. JJohnCooper, I really wouldn't worry about it. If these things are as powerful as it is claimed they are, they'd be all over the place turning up whenever they felt like it, and not having to wait until someone accidentally says 'Ftumch' or something. Seriously, I wouldn't worry about it. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 21:48, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

We could go to the pictures, or go "blibblblibblblibble" Tevildo (talk) 22:54, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

For the OP, there's 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 : "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.". This is probably more likely to be intended metaphorically than literally, although such viewpoints are always controversial when it comes to the Bible. Tevildo (talk) 22:54, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

The OP starts with premise after premise concerning his beliefs (for or against). And ends up aware that he is confused. Not surprised. Maybe it would be better to start with facts and evidence and draw conclusions from them. Without that starting point he will remain confused and struggling to reconcile the impossible. Fantasy land was never meant to be more than allegorical. Kittybrewster ☎ 23:04, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Ahh, but there are many people (whose websites, in addition to the vices frequently mentioned here, have embedded MIDIs of "angelic" music and JavaScript fireflies that chase the cursor) who claim to _have_ the facts and evidence that such an approach requires. Perhaps the best advice is to - I'd say "critically examine" if that phrase did not have unfortunate connotations - not take an overly-credulous approach to any source of information. On a separate point, although I hesitate to actively recommend an author whose prose style and reputation in the industry are rather suboptimal, the OP might find that Roger Elwood's books present a view of angels that's consistent with his theology and might go some way to answering his doubts if taking a more sceptical approach to the issue isn't on the table. Tevildo (talk) 23:23, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

(Possibility 1) The people writing the angel books are con-artists or delusional, and nothing will happen if you use their spells.

(Possibility 2) The people writing the angel books are in possession of an amazing truth hitherto denied to generations of scholars, and if you use the spells you will get your own personal angel.

(Possibility 3) As above, except magic is Satanic so your "angel" will be a demon in disguise.

(Possibility 4) It's all nonsense, and you could employ your time, money and conscience better elsewhere.

We have no special insight - find a pin and take your pick.

Is that pin with or without angels dancing on the head of it? Mitch Ames (talk) 02:54, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

The answer to that time-honored question is, "Either all of them, or none of them." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:01, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Karenjc 23:44, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Wine in the Bible was normally non alcoholic. Jesus warned about the leaven of the Pharisees, and as much as representing the idea of false doctrine, leaven was also seen as a corrupting influence. The Jews mostly ate unleavened bread. The Bible has a multitude of verses condemning drunkenness, so there is no way Jesus would have made Merlot or Riesling back then 2000 years ago. As for magic, all is evil. Witches claim to practise white magic to look good. Only outright Satanists would not hide their true nature, although all witches are serving Satan. Of course, without realising, so is everyone who is not doing God's will. Miracles also are not always from God, and if one wants God to act for them, He will do so according to His will, but not by letting anyone summon an angel as if it were a genie. The Russsian. C.B.Lilly 07:22, 10 January 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Christopher1968 (talk • contribs)

Sorry to keep 'wining' on :) , but still nobody has given me any link to an article written by a scholar (archaeologist, etc., not Biblical scholar) proving to me that the word from the bible translated as 'wine' refers to a drink which was not, in fact, wine, but a non-alcoholic drink which must obviously have been made in a vastly different way from its alcoholic counterpart. Also, why would the same word 'wine' be used in the numerous places in the bible which warn against drunkenness? Surely, at least to avoid confusion and conversations like this in the future, they would have chosen a different word? --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 14:39, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth we have an article: Magic and religion. Mitch Ames (talk) 09:02, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

To the OP, you need to be aware that Christianity does not have the monopoly on angels. The angels in your stepmother's book come from Gnostic thought, not Christian. Therefore you should have no problem with this: it's a different (but similar) belief system. --TammyMoet (talk) 10:24, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Just remember the most important lesson from the bible: If angels DO come to your house, and a rabble forms and demands you release the angels to them so as they may "know" them. Give instead the mob your two virgin daughters, so they can do to them as is good in their eyes.. Genesis 19.. Vespine (talk) 04:04, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Ouch! Good one! SteveBaker (talk) 05:18, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Considering what Lot's daughters got up to afterwards, I don't think they'd have objected too strongly. And it should be mentioned that the angels originally wanted to spend the night on the street, to find out _exactly_ how wicked Sodom was... :) Tevildo (talk) 18:55, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

O.o *Watches as innocent question spawns a debate which rapidly spirals out of control*

KageTora, I got the wine info from a Jentezen Franklin video which my youth leader showed the class at one meeting. I don't know the title of the sermon, but he cited some fairly reputable sources.

I'd like to apologize for the way I worded my response to DJ Clayton and KageTora waaaaay ^ up there; it implies that most of what Clayton said is not correct (which it is) and that I didn't value Tora's input (which I did.) Just wanted to clear that up. JJohnCooper (talk) 19:21, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

I guess I'll just have to take your word about being told the wine was non-alcoholic, then, because I have found no reference whatsoever anywhere to anything that states this, other than Christian websites. No worries about the way your response was worded - I didn't take it that you didn't value my input because, after all, we have continued to converse on the topic since. The only thing I can say is, nobody calls me 'Tora'. If my name is shortened, people call me 'Kage'. :) --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 20:08, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

This being the refdesk, can I point all participants to the article on Christianity and alcohol? Summary: JJC's position is not unheard of but is clearly a minority one in "mainstream" Christianity. Of course there are those who think mainstream Christians aren't really Christians; I don't know if he's in that camp or not.

My personal prejudice is that all this finding of ways to make Jesus a teetotaler comes from a tradition that's far too skeptical of physical pleasure of any sort. "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they called him a drunkard and a glutton". But I don't claim any special expertise. --Trovatore (talk) 20:31, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

I've got it figured out - just email me the words of the incantation - I'll read them and let you know if any angels show up. You're off the hook afterlife-wise - and I'm no worse off because if all of this nonsense is true I'm screwed anyway. Easy! SteveBaker (talk) 00:58, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

@SteveBaker "klaatu barada nikto". Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:12, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, thanks! That got rid of that damned great silver robot that's been standing in my back yard for the last year...but sadly, no personal Angels yet. SteveBaker (talk) 20:23, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

...or 'Ftumch'. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 16:16, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

That only works on robots called Gort! You have to add a 'gesundheit' at the end to call up evil spirits.--220.101.28.25 (talk) 16:45, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Steve... um... if you did call up a demon it would probably end up killing you. None of us wants that... or at least I don't.

I'm not a teetotaler; my youth pastor was making a point. I do believe, however that being drunk is a sin. Drinking is not; drunkenness is. JJohnCooper talk I forgot to log in on this...

silver slugger requirements

I need to know what qualifications are for silber slugger award in US baseball. if player is in 1 game and gets 2 for 4, will he get it if all other players are below .500? What if he plays half season and get injury when his BA is .450, will he get it?

Silver Slugger winners are voted for. I'm sure the voters take the player's at bats, etc. into consideration. Woogee (talk) 20:35, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Silver Slugger Award does not get into criteria, but it's reasonable to assume that the personnel who vote for this award would only consider players who had played most of a season, and they certainly wouldn't vote for a guy who played just 1 game. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:04, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Just to be clear, the Silver Slugger isn't awarded for any particular game; it's awarded at the end of the season and is based on the entire season's accomplishments. Like the Golden Gloves, the awards are voted upon by the coaches and managers and the voters are free to vote for whomever they want, sometimes with bizarre or embarrassing results. For example, in 1999 Rafael Palmeiro was awarded the Gold Glove award at first base, despite only playing 28 games in the field. So, while I agree with Bugs that it's unlikely that anyone would win the Silver Slugger award for playing just one game, baseball voters tend to make stupid decisions based on frankly bizarre ideas on a regular basis, so I wouldn't put anything past them. Matt Deres (talk) 14:53, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

If we were talking about the batting champion, and not the Silver Slugger, a player is required to have at least 3.1 plate appearances for each game his team plays in order to qualify (unless the player would still have the highest batting average if enough hitless at-bats were added to reach the 3.1 average mark.) So for that award at least, you can't just have a good game or a season shortened too much by injury. --Onorem♠Dil 15:02, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

True. The batting championship is based on stats. The Silver Slugger Award is an opinion poll, so it's subject to whims, just as other awards like MVP and Cy Young and so on. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:16, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Locating a business

Hi, I'm looking to find the contact details for a games shop, but I only have its location (London, ish) and the (fairly uncommon) first name and nationality of its owner to go on. What's the best way to find them? Does any part of the directory enquiries menagerie have enough data that this could be pieced together? Or will I need to do some more heavyweight sleuthing than that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.78.119.102 (talk) 21:55, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, if you were to post whatever information you have here, we might be able to help. Have you tried a Google search along the lines of "games shop London <owner's name>"? Tevildo (talk) 23:06, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Tried, it doesn't work. And I'm a little loth to post it on here, because that could be construed as just looking to get my legwork done for me :). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.78.119.102 (talk) 23:19, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I suppose it would be possible to post a letter addressed to "X's Games Shop, London" asking for contact details - the Post Office _sometimes_ manages to get letters through based on such limited information. However, it would be much easier if you were to post the details - if not here, then on a UK gaming forum, perhaps? - and see if anyone recognizes them. Tevildo (talk) 23:34, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't think there's any problem with using this desk to do your "legwork" - it's when it a simple enquiry that could be found using the search box in google and wikipedia in seconds that annoys the ref deskers! Complicated enquiries are good fun! Gazhiley (talk) 23:50, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Go ahead and post all the info you have - this is the sort of question we're happy to have a go at :) Exxolon (talk) 17:23, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Limitations on the Height of Buildings

What are the various limitations on the potential height of a habitable structure? I imagine that there are a lot of factors (technological, economic, legal, etc.)—I'm wondering how they all fit together. For example, regardless of financial concerns, what's the maximum height we can achieve? Which factor would prevent us from building further?

Alfonse Stompanato (talk) 22:10, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, if you build it so high the top floors are in the death zone, that would be a problem (although you could overcome it by making it air tight and fitting an airlock). I guess the biggest problem is the weight on the bottom level - you need to build the bottom layers out of something with very high compressive strength and there will be limits to how strong a material you can get. To an extent, you can overcome that by building a pyramid (so the weight is spread over a greater area), but then you are limited by how much land you have available to build on. If you get above 100km then you are in space and you have a Space tower. --Tango (talk) 22:23, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

The trick is to start from Clarke orbit and work down. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 00:31, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

There is a big difference between tensile and compressive structures. Tensile ones do, indeed, seem the more plausible for connecting the ground and space. --Tango (talk) 03:06, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Burj Khalifa (see article) formerly known as Burj Dubai, is a skyscraper in Dubai, United Arab Emirates, and the tallest man-made structure ever built, at 828 m (2,717 ft). Wind resistance is a major limiting factor to the height of buildings. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 09:49, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I understand this new building has shattered Taipei 101 by over 1000 feet. From Irving Wallace's Book of Lists, there is an article saying that Frank Lloyd Wright once considered a mile high ( 5280 feet ) building, which would have been nearly twice as high as this new one. Some foresaw problems with firefighting, as can be seen in 20th Century Fox and Warner Brothers disaster ( in movie terms, as well as by subject ), The Towering Inferno. It is said the Sears Tower sways a number of feet at the top, due to high winds. That is interesting about building up to space. If one got to where one is weightless, would that make the upper floors weightless, and take the strain off some of the lower ones ? I suspect not, but that is intriguing. The Russian. C.B.Lilly 12:10, 10 January 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Christopher1968 (talk • contribs)

Well, not really. You don't become weightless in space because of your height above the ground - it's because of your orbital speed. If you build a tower 22,000 miles high - then you'd be weightless in the penthouse suite - but not in any of the other 10 million floors on the way up there...and then - only if you built your tower at the equator. SteveBaker (talk) 15:41, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Surely the main concern is legality. No way is anyone going to grant planning permission for buildings miles high. They'll find a way to stop that. - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 19:55, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Why wouldn't they? It's fantastic publicity for wherever you build it. Why do you think buildings like Burj Khalifa are allowed to be built (in fact, I think that was even built by a state owned investment company)? --Tango (talk) 23:20, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

That depends on the country. But I'm sure there are plenty of 3rd world countries that would shrug their shoulders, take your bribes and offers of masses of national prestige and local employment and let you build whatever you want. SteveBaker (talk) 05:15, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

According to the article Demolition the tallest steel framed building deliberately imploded was only 439 feet (134m). A couple of towers 1362/1368 feet upsettingly (but efficiently) were collapsed one day. Has anyone given thought about how to do it when Burj Khalifa needs to be demolished? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:47, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

The big limitation is logistics: as the tower gets higher, the percentage of the building devoted to moving things (air, water, people) in and out increases, to the point where adding further height doesn't increase the amount of usable space. --Carnildo (talk) 01:14, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

When can One buy Internationalized domain name

When do Internationalized domain names go on sale? Acceptable (talk) 22:33, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

As the article states, they have been on sale for some time. If you mean internationalised top level domains, ICANN are currently processing uncontroversial requests, as detailed here. Among other requirements, there is a $26,000 fee. Warofdreams talk 05:26, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

January 10

Source and cause of my stuckupness and possible remedies

I am stuckup. I think I'm better (in terms of intelligence, dignitiy and significance) than any of my peers or classmates I meet or come across at school. One exception is I don't feel this way toward people who are clearly better than I am. So it hurts my pride to try to befriend, approach, or just say "Hi (name)" to people. I want others to always do that to me first. Others mistaken me as being shy, but I'm more stuckup than shy, if I'm shy at all. I'm trying to figure out why I feel this way. What are some sources and causes of being stuckup. Additionally, what are some methods that can eliminate this aspect of personality? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ysk1 (talk • contribs) 05:17, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

The book Difficult Personalities : A practical guide to managing the hurtful behaviour of others (and maybe your own!) has a chapter on Superiority which may help. Friends - A practical guide to understanding relationships might help. You should also consider seeking professional counselling. Mitch Ames (talk) 06:06, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I have the same attitude. I like to try to look past my obvious superiority to others and concentrate on how I can take advantage of, or get something from, the other person, whom I term as my "mark," and people (mostly) are more easily manipulated by a friendly attitude. Well, aside from chicks, who seem more to respond to meanness. Rasputin72 (talk) 06:09, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Note to the OP: The world does not rotate around you. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 09:51, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Of course it doesn't. Impossible, when it rotates around ME! But seriously, if this is a serious(?) question. I think you have proved that you are not superior to "my peers or classmates" as to really think so is surely a major flaw? Self-confidence is one thing, but “Self praise is no recommendation” (anon). Are you sure you're not just shy and trying to cover it up with a 'snooty' attitude? How to eliminate this attitude?, at least you recognise it, that's a good start! --220.101.28.25 (talk) 11:19, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

An early girl friend that that not only was I 'stuck-up' but so was my dog. Was quite pleased by that!--85.210.170.108 (talk) 12:16, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Profit from the sad example of Godolphin Horne ;-) Dmcq (talk) 14:14, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

"I believe in equality. Equality for everyone. No matter how stupid they are, or how much better I am than they are." -- Steve Martin, "What I Believe." It occurs to me that one possible cure for this ailment would be to join the Marines. His leaders during basic training will make it clear what his level of superiority is. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:14, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

You should read Mesillat Yesharim by Moshe Chaim Luzzatto. My father-in-law recommended it after getting to know me. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 02:01, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Why should you say "hi" to people? I mean, if they say "hi" to you, then it is out of politeness that you say "hi" back.

There is such a thing as a healthy ego. In silence you can have a healthy ego. If it interrupts your silence to say "hi" first to people — then don't do it.

Forget about all the other reasoning going into your calculations and your motivations and the possibility of changing your behavior. You can be among people without "saying" anything to them. If they say "hi" first, that is another thing. Then it would constitute "snubbing" them to not say "hi" back.

But what I think you are experiencing is simply the comfort of your own silence. That, I contend, is a healthy thing. Bus stop (talk) 02:44, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Articles for deletion

On average, how many articles are nominated for AFD each day (24 hour period)? Rasputin72 (talk) 06:04, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Is there something stopping you from counting? ~ Amory (u • t • c) 22:53, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

We tracked it at one point, and it seemed to hover near 100 per day in various categories. But that was over 2 years ago. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 13:26, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Successive Article for Deletion nominations

What are the pages with the most nominations for AFD? I notice some pages have been nominated four or five times. Rasputin72 (talk) 06:05, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

GNAA got to eighteen[2][3]... 88.112.56.9 (talk) 06:27, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia talk:Lamest edit wars#Lamest deletion wars for an old list. Nanonic (talk) 12:34, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Light.................the most wonderful thing in the world................................

i learnt that light can be bent??? is this possible??? i read in a book that, if my twin bother {initially r of 15 years} stays on earth n i go to roam in outer space through a spacecraft but the only thing i do is i go inside a wormhole , then when i would return after 50 years i would b only 15 years old but my brother's age would be 65 years old???can anybody make me understand??? what r the required conditions for this??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.197.241.176 (talk) 09:32, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

See the article Twins paradox. This has nothing to do with travel in a wormhole the possibility of which is no more than a far-fetched speculation. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 09:41, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) :If you return after fifty of your years, then you would be 65, and the age of your twin brother would depend on how many years had passed on earth. Wormholes ( read our article) are very much theoretical, and it is doubted whether they can be used for time travel. It has been shown that the twins paradox is genuine, so, yes, it is possible that you could return to Earth younger than your twin, but, with current technology and without wormholes, the effect would be small. You can observe light bending round the sun during a solar eclipse. See Bending_of_starlight#Deflection_of_light_by_the_Sun Dbfirs 09:53, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Every time you look through a lens, or even your eye, you are bending light.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 10:54, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Rainbows are another example, any time light enters a medium of different density, say water or glass at an angle, it will be bent(refraction) and come out at another angle. This is also why fish appear at a different point than they really are if you are standing in water spearfishing. See also Prism (optics).--220.101.28.25 (talk) 11:32, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

• This is probably more in line with your initial question,Gravitational lens --220.101.28.25 (talk) 12:55, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Light can be bent by gravity - the way that Einsteins' special relativity was first demonstrated was by the way starlight was seen to be bent by the sun's gravity during a total solar eclipse. It can also be abruptly bent as it crosses the boundary between two substances with different refractive indices - which is how lenses work. The lenses in our eyes - and the glass in fiberoptic cables have gradually varying refractive indices, which bend the light more gradually in a curve rather than abruptly as a simple glass or plastic lens does.

Wormholes are not "real" - we've never found one, ideas on how to make one are at best wildly impractical and more likely completely impossible. Science fiction fans are speculating wildly in assuming that they might even exist. Forget wormholes - they not in any way important.

However, if you were to travel a good fraction of the speed of light, then Einstien's special theory of relativity says that time becomes distorted for you relative to your brother who stays here on earth (this is the "twins paradox" that Cuddliable mentioned. That's a very real, experimentally proven, effect. The astronauts who flew to the moon and back experienced time flowing at a different rate than for those of us who stayed here on the ground...although they weren't travelling all that fast - so the effect was really small! It's a little bit complicated because while their sustained high speed caused time to slow down for them, the lack of the earth's gravity caused it to speed up...in the end, they actually aged by about a third of a millisecond more compared to the rest of humanity rather than less as you'd expect from their rate of speed alone. Apollo 8 astronaut Frank Borman is said to have actually demanded 400 microseconds of overtime pay from NASA because of that. SteveBaker (talk) 15:35, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Who are these people called Cuddliable and Einstien ? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:22, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

If wormholes have anything to do with backwards time travel, the odds are good that they don't exist. I think there was a Twilight Zone episode that was a twist on the Twins Paradox, though really more like an O. Henry story. Half of a couple was supposed to go on a long space flight that for some reason would cause aging to slow dramatically. That meant when the astronaut got back, his girlfriend would be old. So the space traveler decided to tough it out and not go through hibernation. When the astronaut got back, he was old - but his partner was still young, because she had separately decided to go through hibernation to stay young for him. Yeh, not exactly light-speed related, I know. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:15, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

So what's the problem? He just goes into hybernation until she catches up and they live out their retirement happily ever after. (Except she finds his aged body repulsive and finds a younger guy while he's asleep...but that's a different story). SteveBaker (talk) 05:12, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

She was willing to stick with him as his young companion, but he told her to go find someone her own age and have a happy life. That episode was called "The Long Morrow". Not to be confused with Vic Morrow. I had forgotten that it featured Mariette Hartley, who was Spock's love interest in a time-related episode of Star Trek called "All Our Yesterdays". And the show's other featured player, Robert Lansing, appeared in another Trek episode, an intended spinoff called Assignment: Earth". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:24, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

With Teri Garr! Who was on Friends with Jennifer Aniston who was in Picture Perfect with Kevin Bacon! Adam Bishop (talk) 08:04, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

European winter storms of 2009–2010

Have the European winter storms of 2009–2010 created any change in the sales of SUVs? Also, judging from past winter storms, do such events affect those who are relativly young when they occur to later be more likely to drive 4x4 vehicles? Thanks. 81.157.54.253 (talk) 11:57, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

It's too early to answer your first question, most of the trade bodies - including the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders won't release their full figures for December/January until February or March as it takes some time to collate that data. Nanonic (talk) 12:32, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Interesting question though. I was thinking of buying a new car when the UK 2010 Registration Plate appears in March but because of the horrendous snow and ice we have experienced in Scotland over the past 3 weeks, in addition to minus 9 degrees temperatures, added to our stingy central and local governments not gritting and salting our roads in order to save money (official policy by the way), I went to my local dealer and asked about a 4x4, only to be told that there were none available for at least a couple of months. So maybe that gives an indication as to their sudden demand.92.30.55.253 (talk) 13:11, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Shouldn't think so. It is standard practice to require 2 months delivery since each vehicle has to be optionalised. If they had said 4 or 6 months I might begin to believe there is a sales surge. But who has money for new 4 x 4s in the UK at the present time with high road tax and a high-tax-on-guzzlers budget looming plus a General Election within weeks!!??Froggie34 (talk) 14:49, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks all. I'll wait for the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders stats. 2 months for the paperwork to be done and delivery may be standard, but it is 2 months until one is availabe as far as I understand it. 81.157.54.253 (talk) 15:40, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

There has perpaps been a higher demand in used SUV's? Used cars can usually be bought right away. The Great Cucumber (talk) 19:37, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I would like to set the record straight - I do not think there have been any storms, at least in England, just a lot of snow. 89.242.112.19 (talk) 18:15, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

cf snowstorm 131.111.248.99 (talk) 18:36, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I quote from that article: "Snowstorms are storms where large amounts of snow fall." We havnt had any storms. We havnt had much snow by North American standards, it is just a lot more than what we normally get in England, which is very little. 78.151.110.26 (talk) 23:01, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Was she, or was she Not ?

In the 2009 movie Amelia, Hilary Swank, who is left handed, portrays Amelia Earhart the same way. Is this a mistake, or was Mrs Putnam ( Amelia ) really a southpaw ? I note that in both Erin Brockovitch and Ocean's Twelve ( I think ), the left handed Julia Roberts portrays her characters as righties. I suspect the real Erin Brockovitch is right handed, so that is why, while in the latter film, she was playing right handed Tess Ocean, pretending to be Julia Roberts, until another left hander,Bruce Willis, turns up and wrecks her cunning ruse. Some also say that Ronald Reagan was a lefty, but I recall seeing film of him vetoing a bill to fund roadworks for Boston, and he appeared to be a right hander. So, what is the truth behind these questions ? Was Amelia Earhart Putnam left or right handed, and what about dear old Ronny, the Errol Flynn of B movies ? The Russian. C.B.Lilly 14:24, 10 January 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Christopher1968 (talk • contribs)

There is a tendency for left-handers to be more ambidexterous than right-handers...so perhaps this isn't so surprising. SteveBaker (talk) 15:17, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I put [amelia earhart left handed] into google and about all that turned up was a vandalistic comment on answers.com and a similar question to the above but with no answer.

You never know. Brooks Robinson threw and batted righthanded, but signed autographs lefthanded. Shoeless Joe Jackson batted left and threw right, which is not unusual. Ray Liotta, who played Jackson in Field of Dreams, batted right and threw left. Gary Cooper, a righthander, played the lefthanded Lou Gehrig in The Pride of the Yankees. When Cooper had to appear to be lefthanded, they had him wear a uniform with a backwards "NY" on his right side, and flipped the film. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:49, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Going off that, the more used terms when classifying are actually "Right-handed" and "Non-right handed." That's because while righties tend to use their right hand dominantly for everything (throwing, writing, etc.) so-called "lefties" are usually more fluid, and many use their left for some things and their right for others. Handedness says it all, so I'm with the above editors in that... I don't know. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 22:52, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank You. That clarifies a lot. I knew a kid in my class when I was nine who was ambidextrous, but I can't remember which hand was dominant. Is this ambidextrous nature forced on left handers because of this mercilessly right handed world ? My left handed mother explains how they tried to force her to be a righty, but she resisted. Because their brains are wired different, such a thing is not good. All credit to Mother. I am right handed, but I do some things differently to other right handers. I know people who write left handed but bat at cricket and use pool cubes right handed - like my youngest sister, Joyce. Yet our middle sister Michelle is right handed, but uses a pool cue in her left hand. If I use sellotape™, I hold it in my right, and pull it out with my left, but when I was working in my aunt and uncle's bakery, and holding a roll of stickers to be put on muffins in the same way, one of their right handed workers said I was doing the wrong way. Cheeky girl. I do it the way I see fit, but are there psychological or anthropolgical studies on handedness ? I can think of many things people can do with their hands that could be done either way. When I shuffle cards I hold the deck in my right hand, and shuffle with my left. Also, I understand left handers use the right brain, which is more artistic, but what explains the existence of right handed artists ? How do their brains work ? I am not very artistic, but my right handed brother in law and some of his right handed boys are. Also, what determines which hand you wear a watch on ? The same brother said he was told it had to do with gender, such that girls were to wear them on the right wrist, while I was told that you put it on the opposite hand to what you are. Yet his own son, my nephew, right handed, has his on his right wrist, and we may joke about him being a bit of a girl, but based on this, I see that although there is a convention about it, wearing one's watch on any wrist is up to the individual. The Russian Christopher Lilly 04:31, 11 January 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Christopher1968 (talk • contribs)

I recommend reading Lateralization of brain function. In short: everyone who has not had half their brain removed uses both the left and right sides of their brain. You use both the left and right sides of your brain. There are some things which are mostly done in one side of the brain, although brains are surprisingly flexible and can often use other areas if necessary. The divide is not as straightforward as "right brain is artistic, left brain is logical". Your handedness may correlate with how and where your brain handles some things, but it isn't a straightforward "every left-handed person is like this, and every right-handed person is like this". Plenty of artists are right-handed, and plenty of mathematicians are left-handed.

As to watches: wear them where you want. It's more convenient to put them on the hand you use less, as you're less likely to have a hilarious accident by looking at the time while holding a mug of tea or long, sharp knife. 86.178.229.168 (talk) 01:24, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank You. I understand that now. That makes sense.The Russian Christopher Lilly 11:20, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Name Change

I'm in the UK and would like to change my name. Is there an official govenment department I can do this with? Search engines provide many unoficial sites that can do it for as cheap as £2.99 - http://www.twominutedeedpoll.co.uk/index.htm - but I want to do it with a trustworthy official organisation, whether online or not, so it can be changed on my passport, driving license, etc. Are there forms I can collect from the council or post office or something? Thanks. 81.157.54.253 (talk) 14:45, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

UK Deed Poll Service. 92.30.55.253 (talk) 14:54, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

(e/c) Her Majesty's Courts Service: http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/9805.htm#deed_polls. There's a Word-document guide that includes all relevant forms and instructions. It costs exactly £64.43. Most of that (£52.88) is an advertisement in the London Gazette; the official "enrollment fee" is only £10 out of the total. There is a phone number at the back of the guide that you can call with any questions. Xenon54 / talk / 14:59, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I read the document and it says the London Gazette advert is mandatory, what about for those who are changing thier names for security reasons, an advert of it would be counter productive? And so would asking others to sign it. 81.157.54.253 (talk) 15:37, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

In your case, I'd call them (the number is on page 15, not at the back as I said earlier) and explain the situation, and perhaps they can accommodate you. Best of luck. Xenon54 / talk / 16:07, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Births, marriages, deaths, divorces, the roll of electors, wills, estates, and changes of name are public records, and are available from the relevant records office to anyone, bar exceptional circumstances. It is possible to have a court temporarily seal a public record if a compelling reason can be shown, such as a clear and imminent fear of crime. That would happen as part of a larger legal proceeding (such as a divorce or a criminal trial) and if that's the case it's a matter you should discuss with a lawyer. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 16:06, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Deed polls can't be used to change your name for deceptive purposes, which I think what you describe would count as (you are trying to deceive whoever you feel threatened by). If you think you are in danger, you need to talk to the police. --Tango (talk) 17:03, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

You don't have to do anything official - just use the other name! Changing a name by deed poll means you get a notary public (usually a solicitor) to witness the statement that you, (old name) renounce that name and wish to be known as (new name) from this moment, and used to cost £5. That's all you used to have to do, and I don't recall seeing any law being passed to prevent this. --TammyMoet (talk) 16:35, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

That is technically true, but you may have difficulty getting people to use the new name without getting a deed poll and publishing it in the London Gazette. Banks, the passport service, etc. generally want documentary evidence of the change of name, they won't just take your word for it. --Tango (talk) 16:57, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I think I might just use the £2.99 site and use that as proof of name change. The official method seems to invole too many people knowing about it. Thanks 81.157.54.253 (talk) 19:08, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I suggest you ask someone at the Immigration and Passport Service, the DVLA and your bank and find out what they would require in order to use your new name. Deed polls aren't intended to be used to hide from people - that is why it is usually required to put a notice in the London Gazette. --Tango (talk) 23:17, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Indeed as already mentioned by Tango, you aren't allowed to change your name to deceive, or to defraud and the TwoMinute website makes that clear [4]. The website does say they will refund you if someone refuses to accept it [5] and other websites also say you should have no problem [6] but I would caution that even if no one in the UK has problems with your two minute deed poll I would wonder what people in other countries would think of your two minute deed poll so if you ever plan to visit another country you may want to take that into account as well. Bear in mind you do often have to declare if you've ever used a different name when travelling. Do note that you have to get a witness no matter what method you use, the two minute site for example clearly specifies this as those the other one. This shouldn't be surprising. And as is the norm the witness must be [7] "independent of you i.e. not a relative or partner or someone living at the same address. Therefore, a friend, neighbour or work colleague will be a suitable witness." Nil Einne (talk) 04:45, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

If you are a British citizen then you can just change your name, and notify people that it has been done. I did. But then I thought it through and went to a lawyer and paid for the change to be recorded officially. Glad I did because foreign countries do not accept a simple name change, they want documented proof. And they won't accept an officially modified passport. In fact, in France, it is almost impossible to change one's name. So it is hard for them to understand that the British can do it so easily, and as often as they like!Froggie34 (talk) 09:07, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

I changed my name for £1 - I bought the piece of paper from a legal stationers, filled it in, got it witnessed by a friend and cross-signed by a solicitor friend (they are also known as "commissioners of oaths", I think). I then took this document to my bank etc, who made photocopies. Obviously I had to get a new passport, and that costs a lot more, but it was due for renewal anyway. One pound. Hope this helps! almost-instinct 10:39, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

tattoos

hey, why dont people get tattoos on the palms of their hands???76.189.133.235 (talk) 14:52, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps you could be a guinea pig for that experiment and let us know how it works out? :) Most likely it's because the palms, and also the soles of the feet, are much more sensitive to pain than the areas where tattoos are typically done. Also, it would be less visible. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:10, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Who says they don't? --Mr.98 (talk) 15:24, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

People do. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 15:25, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Ouch! What kind of drugs do they take before getting such tattoos, beyond the stereotypical high-proof alcohol? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:28, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

People get them in all-sorts of sensitive places, Bugs. Google Images will have a whole bunch if you care to peruse. Here's one I made earlier, as they say on Blue Peter. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 15:53, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I realize that. I just wonder what they use for pain-killers. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:03, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Charles Manson had a pentagram tatooed to the palm of his hand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 16:00, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Pain killers are not recommended, as they can thin the blood and cause excessive bleeding. Many people consider the pain to be an essential part of the tattoo expereience. But see [8].--Shantavira|^{feed me} 17:07, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

According to that site, they can "affect one's mental state adversely". As compared with the mental state that brought them to the tattoo parlor. I guess it helps if you like pain. However, it seems like the original question has been answered. It was a false premise. Tattoos can and are made anywhere you'd care to name and that the tattoo artist is willing/able to do. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:14, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

People who are tattoo junkies go for the pain and the adrenaline, generally. My wife got one a long time ago, in memory of a friend who died (it is very tasteful), and the pain was what really made it something more than just "something on her arm" for her. My understanding is that the pain in part makes the tattoo application a very emotional and enduring experience. Which I think is probably appropriate given their permanency. (It doesn't mean people will make great decisions about them, obviously.) --Mr.98 (talk) 20:33, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

This is beginning to make a little more sense to me now. It's not just that you've got a picture on your body somewhere, because you could do that with a marking pen. It's also the implied symbolism of what the tattooed one went through to get it. I'm guessing this is directly connected to the growing interest in piercings, as those with one often have the other. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:28, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I've got a tattoo, Bugs. I got it when I was 20 after years of searching for the right one and I never had an intent to get another. However, those 3 hours of brutal pain - oddly enough - left me wanting another one as soon as I walked out the door. It's a weird psychological response, but it's definitely real. There's a very special "high" associated with (personal meaning + tremendous pain). I've managed to hold off on getting another, but the desire remains... 218.25.32.210 (talk) 01:46, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Fascinating. Now that I think of it, I have a vague recollection that Drew Carey, in his book Dirty Jokes and Beer, remarked on this when he talked about getting his nipples pierced. One of them got infected and he had to take the piercing out. But I think he had something like that "high" you're describing. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:57, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

In response to the OP, Craig Ferguson recently got a tattoo which extends down his forearm onto the palm of his hand. As of about a month ago, he was telling his guests that "there's a reason tattoos stop right here (pointing to wrist). That (pointing to palm) hurts!" JJohnCooper (talk) 19:35, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

I think the biggest reason that not many people get a tattoo on their palm is due to the amount of things you touch with your palm, blisters as well as general use of the palm causes the tattoo over time to fade and disapear in spots. Also just from the way the palm wrinkles and rubs skin to skin all of the time will cause the same effect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.218.50.226 (talk) 21:41, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Good luck will rub off when I shakes hands with you. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:02, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Sum

How do I sum all possible products from the numbers 1, 2, 3, ..., n? For example, 1x1+1x2+2x1+1x3+3x1+2x3+3x2+3x3+... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.250.215.128 (talk) 15:22, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

This would be better on the Mathematics Desk. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 15:26, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I just realized that. I'd typed in WP:RD/M, thinking it would redirect there, but it redirected here instead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.41.186.123 (talk) 16:05, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

WP:RD/MA takes you there. Please do not change either of these redirects without some sort of consensus, or at least mentioning you're going to do so. 131.111.248.99 (talk) 16:38, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

These could be sums of infinite series. You might need to break them up into seperate series, and see if there are any patterns. The Russian Christopher Lilly 12:31, 11 January 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Christopher1968 (talk • contribs)

    n     2
/  ___   \
| \      |
|  \  k  |
|  /     |
| /___   |
\  k=1   /

Cuddlyable3 (talk) 12:55, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

How you work it out: use distributive law to convert this to: (1+2+3+4+...+n)*(1+2+3+4+...+n) giving cuddlyable3;s answer. This comes out to $n^{2}(n-1)^{2}/4$

werewolves?

whats your take on them? real, fake? --BoardsofCanadaDawnChorus (talk) 17:16, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

You are asking for an opinion here rather than an actual answer - you'd be better off asking this on a forum or other Q&A site. Read Werewolf to get an overview of people's beliefs and the likely origins of them. Exxolon (talk) 17:20, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Well i'll just say this...I can't see how there's any 'opinion' to have - they're fake, not real, not even slightly. ny156uk (talk) 17:27, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

ohh exxolon didnt kno thanks. --BoardsofCanadaDawnChorus (talk) 17:38, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Assuming the OP's question is on the level (which I'm not 100 percent certain of), the larger topic of persistent belief in critters like werewolves and bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster and such stuff as that, could be interesting to explore, and I wonder if there's a comprehensive article on it. It's like a throwback to pagan religions, which were rife with such superstitions. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:10, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Bugs, the study of dubious and anomalistic subjects in general is often known as Forteana, after Charles Fort, and there are several magazines devoted to it, such as the Fortean Times. Unproven creatures fall under the rubric of Cryptozoology.

Note that those interested in Forteana do not necessarily "believe" in any (let alone every) given instance of it (though they may be more open-minded towards possibilities than the average), but also find interest in studying the phenomena of the beliefs of others in them.

As well as once believed-in but disproven-in-a-literal-sense "creatures" such as werewolves, Cryptozoology covers creatures known to exist but apparently present in places they should not be, creatures thought to be extinct but possibly or sometimes provably not, and creatures whose existence is suspected, often from local anecdotes etc, but not yet proven scientifically; an increasing number of exploratory zoologists are beginning to admit that part of their work amounts to cryptozoology.

Note also that my own interests in such matters have little other than an underlying philosophical attitude (Forteanism) in common with my involvement (such as it is) in a thriving Pagan Religion :-). 87.81.230.195 (talk) 04:11, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Excellent. I hope OP took note of that. Meanwhile, here's a brief mention of the subject in a well-known film:[9] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:16, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

ohh wow, bugs. cool. pagan religions. --BoardsofCanadaDawnChorus (talk) 18:13, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

So the question was indeed a joke. Any reason we shouldn't just delete this section? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:39, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

There are no evidence as to that they exist or have existed before. It's fun fairy tales which also make great Hollywood movies etc., but noone believes in them for real nowadays. The Great Cucumber (talk) 19:43, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Angua, the werewolf-cum-cop in a popular series of fantasy novels, has a certain charm[10]. PhGustaf (talk) 20:09, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

What's a 'werewolf-cum-cop'? An official from Health & Safety that regulates the quality of bodily fluids from werewolves? --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 05:24, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

There have been some good werewolf movies. An American Werewolf in London was an interesting twist on it, although I kept expecting the wolf to break into the "Be a Pepper" song. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:10, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

On the ref desk talk page, at least one other editor agrees that this question is inappropriate for the ref desk and could be deleted. Any objections? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:11, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

You have my full support if you want to delete it Bugs. I think the OP needs to be sent the message that you should have two brain cells to rub together before troubling the locals with a half-witted question. Vranak (talk) 11:18, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, the header does say "Miscellaneous", which makes it hard to call anything off-topic. Even if the OP was just wanking, there's a possibility for an interesting thread on lycanthropy. PhGustaf (talk) 21:20, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Aha, a loophole. Well, the OP asked to be adopted. Maybe we could wait until the adoption papers are signed. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:24, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Surely you meant 'Wabbit-hole'? Eh Eh Eh Eh. Elmer Fudd. --220.101.28.25 (talk) 11:53, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

More like a rabid-hole (This is indeed getting ridiculous). --Saddhiyama (talk) 12:25, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

In the fantasy novels, Angua's more or less human boyfriend has adjusted to her being complicated a few days a month. "She has her own flap in the door, and she buys her own dog biscuits." PhGustaf (talk) 04:27, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

We should at least link to Clinical lycanthropy - it's worth a read. SteveBaker (talk) 05:08, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

I would argue that stories of beastly men are true if properly interpreted. I have, of course, allegorical interpretations in mind. -Pollinosisss (talk) 08:42, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

For those who believe the Warrens' claims of exorcising demons, they once ostensibly removed from a man a demon which caused him to believe he was a wolf. He didn't actually become a wolf though.

Also, 'cum' as used above comes from Latin and means 'as well as' or 'also,' Mr. Smarty-Pants KageTora. :) JJohnCooper (talk) 19:29, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Not really. Latin 'cum' means 'with', 'although', 'by' or 'from' i.e. the ablative case as in magne cum laude. Please refrain from comments on the loin covering of another respondent. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 22:45, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

That evolved into con in Italian and Spanish, and... avec in French??? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:47, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Etymology of avec: Old French avoec, avuec from Vulgar Latin aboc, abhoc, a Frankish corruption of Latin apud hoc (“‘with this, near this, close to this’”). Used as a replacement of Latin cum "with" in Merovingian and Carolingian documents. Gradually supplanted Old French od (“‘with’”). Involvement of werewolves cannot at this time be ruled out. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 12:31, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Don't worry, Cuddly, I actually pride myself on the smartness of my pants. I always make sure the well-ironed crease goes straight down the middle on both legs, and wear a suitably sized belt just below the belly-button. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 22:49, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

January 11

Calculator Manual

Hi, I have a graphic calcualtor, Texet GR4F-x3, but I can't find instructions of how to use it online. I press all the number buttons and the only one it seems to understand is 6, i don't know if it's faulty or in the wrong mode. I have an exam in about 3 hours and any help provided before then is appreciated. 81.157.54.253 (talk) 05:13, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

The user manual is available from the Texet website here. Nanonic (talk) 05:23, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Wow, thank you for the speedy response. I looked on their site but couldn't find it. 81.157.54.253 (talk) 05:39, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

I still can't fathom how to use it so I guess it's broken. No matter, I have another non-graphic calculator. Thanks 81.157.54.253 (talk) 05:50, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

If the 6 key is working (ie you push it a bunch of times and a bunch of 6's come up on the display) - but the 1,2,3,4,5,7,8,9 and 0 are not - then I'd say it was broken and the manual won't help. However, the problem is 99% certain to be the keyboard - since you have nothing to lose, you could carefully disassemble the thing and see if the connector has half fallen out - or perhaps there is junk stuck in the keys or something. If nothing else, it'll be interesting and instructive to see what you find...and maybe you can fix it. SteveBaker (talk) 00:26, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Battery? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 12:22, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Do you think the '6' key runs on some magical power source not available to the other keys? It seems unlikely to be the battery if one key works reliably and the others do not. SteveBaker (talk) 20:16, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

No. I think that erratic response to key presses often occurs when the battery voltage to the key scanning matrix is weak. Is it stupid to disassemble the calculator without first checking the battery? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 22:51, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Depending on the calculator, you might need to do one to check the other - remove the battery to get behind it, or disassemble it to get at the battery. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 13:18, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Where's the Crime.

Ever since I saw that Professionals episode on the creeps who had a rifle that could shoot two miles ( which in reality I doubt due to windage ), where they intended to kill a Greek dignitary at Wimbledon, I have wondered, what if someone was, say, standing in the Czech Republic, and aimed a rifle at someone just over the border in Germany and killed them, where would the murder take place ? The act was committed in one country, but the victim died in another. Or even if someone shot in one country flees his attacker then dies in another, who has the jurisdiction ? The Russian Christopher Lilly 12:29, 11 January 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Christopher1968 (talk • contribs)

The murder occurs where the victim died. That country would seek extradition of the murderer from the neighbour country. See Georgi Markov and Alexander Litvinenko. Kittybrewster ☎ 12:38, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Why are those two relevant? --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 18:24, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes that makes sense. Thanks. Without looking him up yet, I know that Georgi Markov was the Bulgarian dissident ruthlessly stabbed with an umbrella contining a metal ball full of ricin. The Russian Christopher Lilly 12:57, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

This must happen fairly often. Depending on jurisdiction, quite a considerable amount of time can pass between a murder being committed and the victim's death. Historically in England and Wales it was a year and a day, and now it can be far longer. Marnanel (talk) 13:32, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

See also Gary McKinnon. Kittybrewster ☎ 13:38, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

See personal jurisdiction. But even if country A says it has jurisdiction over country B, it can't, without violating international "norms" cross the border to apprehend the individual. In theory country A could declare anyone wearing red hats in country C to be unlawful criminals, but it's [hopefully] unlikely that country C would respect that designation. If country A tried to do otherwise, we typically call that war. Shadowjams (talk) 08:22, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it used to be a year and a day in New Zealand, too, I assume because, if a person can last that long from injuries, they may not have been bad enough to cause death. One could debate the point by suggesting the victim might not have died at all, even if say two years after they were attacked, had they not been so. I could go on for ages on that point but I won't. ( and they all breathe a sigh of relief ). The main thing is, if one intends to kill someone, and they injure them, that they do die, even if after a while, they must be liale for something - even murder, if say the person was so badly injured they were put into an irrecoverable coma. The train robbers of 1963 bashed the driver, who died years later as a result of what they did. He may not have died at that time otherwise, so at the very least, they sped up his demise. As for countries controlling others' laws, this is evident in some not wanting to return murderers to the US if they are going to be executed. Why should they care ? These same countries - mine included - would be up in arms about America trying to dictate to them, so let it work both ways. If someone was being returned to a country to be executed for speaking out, that might be another story, but then we get into the whole debate about some nations standards being what they are, and whether one country has the right to dictate to any other.The Russian Christopher Lilly 11:17, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Consider the 270 people who were murdered over Lockerbie in Scotland by a terrorist bomb that exploded at that point in the flight path. The bomb was loaded in Germany - the plane was due to explode over the Atlantic on its way to the USA leaving no trace - but was delayed by unexpected head winds - and so Scotland became the crime scene with everything that followed. And the convicted perpetrator Abdelbassett al Megrahi has now been released to his homeland of Libya by Scotland's ridiculously stupid Justice Minister Kenny McAskill as an act of compassion. Nice for him. Not so nice for the families of the 259 airline passengers and 11 Lockerbie residents who died.92.30.100.29 (talk) 12:03, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

WP:SOAP, thanks. Marnanel (talk) 19:14, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I get you there. I watched that ridiculous sideshow live as it happened in the middle of the night in New Zealand, as they drove his van through Scottish streets. I get that. I do not know if he was innocent, I do not believe so. Only if he was should he have been released. But guilty ? Even if dying ? Shame, but too bad. Had they hanged him - or better - given him a firing squad as a foreign enemy spy - he would not have lived long enough to get cancer. He was from a country that murdered that police woman from their embassy that time - why did the British not storm it then and there ? What, to avoid an international incident ? Isn't that what Libya already did by firing on the people outside ? Some of that diplomatic immunity is a joke. But the plane was American, as were most of the victims. Would that not entail US jurisdiction - at least wrt those who died in the plane ? Of course, if he was innocent, why did Libya hand him over ? People get upset that Arabs or Moslems are stereotyped as terrorists, and some times they might have a point - not all of them are - and some taken for Arab turn out to be Brazilian - but when all is said and done, especially also in the seventies and eighties, those doing the deeds were Moslem and or Arabs. People here picketed an Israeli tennis player in Auckland over Israeli air strikes - but do those same people criticise Osama bin Laden and his hags ? The Russian Christopher Lilly 13:29, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

One more time, this time with feeling: WP:SOAP. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:33, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough. I got carried away - for quite some time. Only as I saw others giving their opinions. If it can be seen that they are not, neither will I. But if someone attacks what I believe, am I not to respond in kind ? I do apologise, also for adding things about people not proven, even if I was not stating it as fact myself. I realise that sometimes there has to be a time and place for facts - not opinions, as there is a time for each thing as appropriate, as written in Ecclesiastes. That last bit was a fact, which I leave the rest of you to look up if you wish, rather than preach about it. I have even seen Mathematics and Statistics books which seem to give their author's own political opinion, much to the annoyance of other Mathematicians, and certainly wrt to Maths, I have tried to keep opinion out of it. This would be refreshing. Thank You for steering me in the right direction in terms of behaviour here. I have never added my opinion to any articles I have added facts to, that have been left out, just here. I try to avoid chat rooms and such, and I guess this has begun to degenerate into one. Some of you others need to see that too. If I have done wrong, I admit so, but I have also seen others - and they know it - snap at people, or be sarcastic. I guess saying others made me do it is no real excuse, but I trust we can continue from now on with just the facts, ma'm. The Russian Christopher Lilly 03:34, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

"But if someone attacks what I believe, am I not to respond in kind ?" No. Step away, and leave it. WP:Don't give a fuckism helps. Keep WP:CALM. 86.178.229.168 (talk) 22:16, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Very well, point taken. From vast experience I have seen the value of " A soft answer turneth away wrath; but grievous words stir up anger. " I shall endeavour not to take these things too seriously. I know what I stand for. I am happy with that, and yes, to maintain neutrality, since this is an Encyclopaedia, is paramount. As I said, there is a time and place for me to go all Irish on someone who disrespects me - but Wikipedia is not the place. The Russian Christopher Lilly 10:57, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Besides that, no one here attacked what you believe. 92.30.100.29 started some off topic soapboxing, you agreed and continued it. No one here every disagreed with you, said you were silly or anything of that sort, they just told you both to stop soapboxing. In other words, if there's a time and place for you to go all Irish on someone who disrespects you, perhaps not only is Wikipedia not the place, but the time should be when someone actually disrespects you?

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure that Scotland doesn't have the death penalty, not even for foreign spies. You're welcome to disagree with that practice personally, but as you said not here. Also while I personally didn't agree with the picketing, if Osama or his 'hags' came to New Zealand, if recognised they would be arrested on sight (if not subject to extraordinary rendition) so there's no need for picketing.

Finally I'm pretty sure an analysis of terrorist attacks in the seventies and eighties in particular (since that's a period you mentioned and IMHO a fairly poor timeframe for that statement) would show a fair number of them were not in fact commited by Arabs or Muslims since there were a number of active groups at the time particularly left wing ones like the Red Army Faction, Black Liberation Army, Japanese Red Army, Revolutionary Cells (RZ), Shining Path, as well as those aggitating for an independent homeland like the Fuerzas Armadas de Liberación Nacional Puertorriqueña, Euskadi Ta Askatasuna, Tamil Nadu Liberation Army, Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam, Irish National Liberation Army, IRA (which highlights the existance of the opposite, i.e. those opposing such movements like the Ulster Volunteer Force), and perhaps I should also mention the lone wolves like the Unabomber and Marc Lépine (I can understand some debate about whether he it would be accurate to call him a terrorist although that isn't for wikipedia, however it's even more ridiculous to call him Muslim then it is Obama) and of course stuff like the African National Congress and their Umkhonto we Sizwe.

Many of these were of course cooperating or loosely linked in a number of ways and they often had overlapping causes and so a number of these did cooperate with terrorist groups that may be termed Muslim or Arab (the PFLP in particular). And such groups (Muslim or Arab) did carry out a number of attacks themselves. But clearly for the 70-80s period a fair number of attacks weren't but such groups.

P.S. Just to be clear, please don't use this as an excuse for further soapboxing, unless you have factual information about anything I said that is incorrect or misleading. I thought it wise to mention facts here, since this is the RD.

Nil Einne (talk) 13:14, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Earmark(Pork barrel) spending

I am currently trying to find out what gives the Officials of the US GOVERNMENT the right to pass Earmark legislation and to find out if this type of spending is legal in accordance with Article 1. Section 8 of the Constitution.

Any help you provide will be greatly appreciated!

Sincerely yours, Raymond F. Moretti —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.70.218.196 (talk) 21:29, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article Earmark (politics) is, unfortunately, a bit short on reliable sources. That's the best, however, I can offer without either expressing an opinion or reinforcing or denying any of your opinions on the matter. --Jayron32 21:40, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Here is Article 1. Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 22:32, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Let's be clear on who is doing this. An earmark is a paragraph added onto a bill, by a U.S. Representative or a U.S. Senator, which authorizes (or requires) the government to spend some money on something. The bill as a whole (including the earmark) is then passed by the entire House and the Senate. Everyone in the House and in the Senate has had the opportunity to read the bill, so everyone has had the opportunity to learn all about the earmark. The earmark is now part of the law, so if the earmark directed the government to spend US$30 million on the study of the banana slugs that live in Corpus Christi, Texas, then the government now has to go and spend that money on that study. It's all perfectly legal. What people usually object to is earmarks that seem like wasteful spending that has nothing to do with the main bill; the Golden Fleece Awards were a notable yearly denunciation of wasteful government spending, in the opinion, anyway, of Senator Proxmire, while he was alive. (I've no data on how many of these Awards went to earmarks as opposed to wasteful spending in general.) Comet Tuttle (talk) 22:58, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Except in the case of signing statements, in which the President may say, "I'm signing this, but that doesn't mean I'm going to spend that money on banana slugs, no matter what the law says." Of course, in fact, that's really a line-item veto, which the President does not have a Constitutional right to do. Woogee (talk) 00:51, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

The courts have generally ruled that while the Constitution constrains the federal government's regulatory power, it doesn't constrain its spending power. The government can spend $100 billion digging a giant hole to China if it wants. There was a big debate in the early 19th century as to whether this was the case but it has since been settled definitively on the side of Henry Clay and against that of Andrew Jackson. See Maysville Road veto. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:43, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Furthermore, while Congress can appropriate funds it is up to the executive branch to spend them. For example, Congress may grant $100 billion dollars to dig that giant hole to china, but there is nothing preventing the executive branch from dragging its feet about doing so until the project gets repealed by later legislation. Such is the way of "checks and balances" that goes on... --Jayron32 01:50, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually, that's not exactly true. Nixon tried to do that, and Congress passed a bill that says presidents can't do that anymore. See Impoundment (political). -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:49, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Don't pretend there aren't ways around that. One can issue "studies" until the cows come home, and pretend that one is making progress on spending approrpriations as directed, there are lots of ways to stonewall such appropriations even if one never actually officially "impounds" it as described. --Jayron32 04:43, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

. Comet Tuttle (talk) 06:00, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

So that is what Ronald Wilson Reagan meant when he said he would not endores Pork Barrel spending as he vetoed a bill to fund a roadworks for Boston. I believe he was wrong, and the much needed system got built anyway, but why is it, if the Americans have two houses, that the President can veto the thing anyway ? Where's the democracy ?The Russian Christopher Lilly 11:07, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

It's checks and balances. The President can veto legislation that he thinks is inappropriate, but if 2/3 of "the people" (i.e. the House and Senate) disagree, they can override. Similarly, there is no line item veto allowed, because that gives too much power to the President. It's all or nothing. Some states allow a line item veto, and that was their choice in their state constitutions. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:12, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

See Veto override. The President can veto a bill that both houses of Congress have passed, true; but Congress can then override the veto by passing the bill again with a 2/3 majority in each house (as opposed to the simple majority vote that was needed to pass the bill the first time). The bill then becomes law even though the President disapproves of it; and he is then obliged by the Constitution to uphold the law. Our article Bill (proposed law) discusses this a little, but unfortunately it was written to cover both Great Britain and the US, so the article is generalized and vague, and the links at the bottom of the page are probably more straightforward to read about the US process. The President is quite powerful in the US, but not all-powerful. (The head of government in the US used to be much weaker under an earlier, unsuccessful constitution called the Articles of Confederation.) Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:11, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

That is a relief. Saves the US from dictatorship. There have to be checks and balances. In New Zealand we have only one parliament, and the Governor General assents to the Bill as a formality. I do not believe he is allowed to veto it. In Australia in November 1975 the Governor General Sir John Kerr dismissed Prime Minister Gough Whitlam, the very man who appointed Kerr to the post in the first place. This was due to the Labor Government's money bills being passed in the lower house, but not ratified by the Liberal Party controlled Senate. The GG thought this meant Whitlam had lost the ability to govern, but was maligned for his actions for years to come. It caused a constitutional crisis in Australia, and led to Labor being voted out of office before Christmas. Some suspect CIA involvement, as alluded to in the true story The Falcon and the Snowman, made about nine years later. In New Zealand we have only one house nowadays, so things are a bit more straightforward. The Governor General only signs the bills as a formality, and I do not believe he has the right to refuse. I understand that the President can be dismissed if he is deemed unable to execute the office, but is this by a vote in both houses, or by a document signed by the Cabinet, as shown in Air Force One ? These differences between countries are intriguing, because they are examples of each nation's individual sovereignty, such as the fact I believe that the US cannot hold a snap election, since by law I believe they must occur every four years. I do not think Governors General can sack anyone in NZ or Oz any more. I do think though that some government isn't as democratic as it should be, and without having to overthrow it by force, the people should be able to do something about their government when they see fit. The Russian Christopher Lilly 13:19, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Both New Zealand and Australia use the Westminster system. This means that, in practice, normally, the respective prime ministers "advise" their governors-general and expect their advice to be taken as instructions. At law, however, the power is held by the governor-general, who appoints and dismisses ministers as he/she sees fit; those ministers hold power "at the governor-general's pleasure". Nothing has happened in Australia since 1975 to render a repeat of the 1975 Australian constitutional crisis impossible. There were a number of factors at play, one of which was the appointment of non-Labor senators to replace Labor senators who had died or resigned. That is now impossible, since the Australian referendum, 1977 (Senate Casual Vacancies) altered the constitution; but in essence, the same crisis could arise again, and the same outcome could obtain. Much less likely in NZ, where there's a unicameral parliament. But in theory, a NZ Governor-General could still dismiss a NZ Prime Minister for any weird reason. Nobody thought it would ever end the way it ended in Oz in 1975, either; but at the same time, nobody to my knowledge has ever argued that what Kerr did was constitutionally improper. It was just highly unexpected, coming under the heading of the rarely-used reserve powers of the Crown. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:28, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

As to the US system, to permanently remove the president from power requires an impeachment, which involves both houses of Congress: the House of Representatives votes to impeach, and the Senate tries the case. This is specified in the Constitution by Article 1, Sections 2 and 3. The two presidents it has been attempted against (Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton) both survived the Senate vote. Richard Nixon probably would have lost, but he resigned before the House voted to impeach him. If the president was impeached and convicted then the vice-president would become president.

The procedure depicted as being considered in the movie Air Force One was the temporary replacement of a president who is "unable to discharge the duties of his office". This is covered under the 25th Amendment, Section 4. Basically the vice-president and a majority of the cabinet can declare the president incapacitated (and if the president disputes this, Congress decides who's right). Presumably they had in mind situations where the president was injured in a shooting or accident, or seriously ill, and could not declare himself incapacitated (that's Section 3 of the amendment), but in the movie they imagined it being used because of the hostage crisis. (There was a similar fictional situation in the TV series The West Wing: the president's daughter was taken hostage, and he removed the criminals' leverage by declaring himself incapacitated under Section 3.) In any such temporary situation the vice-president becomes acting president until the president recovers his capabilities.

(If the vice-presidency happens to be vacant at the time, as it was in the West Wing episode, the Presidential Succession Act applies.) --Anonymous (Canadian), 22:16 UTC, January 13, 2010.

Thank You, that clears a lot of things up. Being a New Zealander, I was not even aware that our Governor General could do that. Whatever happens, the interests of the People should always be paramount. All this talk also reminds me of the movie Dave, as well. It seems better if a dismissal is the result of a law enacted by the representatives, rather than just a piece of paper signed by some of them. I know Sir John Kerr was roundly criticised, but I also know he did nothing illegal, and if there was a problem with what occurred, safeguards would need to be enacted. It seems many regard the appointment of a Governor General as a joke, some kind of " rubber stamp ", which they believe has no real power. Obviously only when the law is tested, do people realise otherwise. I could continue, but then I would be getting into personal opinion, so I shall not. Tempting, though. Without trying to sound opinionated, one only ever hopes for a Government they agree with, which protects their interests, without being autocratic. The Russian Christopher Lilly 03:48, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

See Governor-General of New Zealand. (And note the hyphenation: the only Commonwealth realm whose Governor-General is a Governor General is Canada). -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 18:40, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm obviously not an Australian but while I believe you're right nowadays it's generally accepted that what Kerr did was constitutionally allowed, it's my understanding some people do question the proprietary of certain of Kerr's alleged actions, e.g. "Years later, Fraser, supported by his staff, claimed that Kerr had asked him the same three questions earlier in the day over the phone, something which Kerr adamantly denied in his memoirs." Nil Einne (talk) 13:07, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

January 12

Cost to White House of Super Bowl security

How much does security for the Super Bowl cost US taxpayers, given its status as a National Special Security Event? Has it been proposed to tax the NFL for this cost? NeonMerlin 04:34, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

No more than air conditioning at the park ranger office in Yellowstone National Park -- the White House doesn't pay for this out of its budget. Perhaps you refer rather to the US Federal Government. And if you think the government should tax the NFL, do you think it should also tax the airlines for federal air marshals? DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 05:18, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Why are you biting the questioner over a technical detail and a matter of opinion? Comet Tuttle (talk) 05:58, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Matter of opinion? It is not within the NFL's control how the US Gov defines the level of risk at events -- if the NFL would refuse, would the government overrule or cancel the Super Bowl? If the government decided that Obama's daughter's school play was a security threat event, should the school have to fund the extra security? And I didn't think my comment was biting, merely questioning the premise in a comical sort of manner. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 13:19, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

No answer yet, but this document says that Congress authorized US$100 million (!) for the Secret Service to provide protection for the two 2004 Democratic and Republican nomination conventions. Each of these was a multi-day event, smaller than the Super Bowl. Comet Tuttle (talk) 05:58, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

There are a number of news sources online that give potential manning figures for Super Bowl's past including [11] and [12], none give full figures (mainly stating National Security reasons for not disclosing the cost) but the second link does also state that the NFL earmarked over US$6 million to contribute to the costs for Superbowl XLIII. Nanonic (talk) 12:46, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

snoring

what can u do to prevent snoring all the time72.53.194.237 (talk) 10:40, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Some women have been known to sew marbles into the back of their husband's pyjama tops. I assume the idea is that people snore when they sleep on their back, so the discomfort of the marbles may get them to turn to the side. Also don't eat cheese before bed. There was also a device, which South Africa used to win the 1995 Rugby World Cup, ( along with other means I bet are not shown in the movie Invictus ), which was a plastic strip put on the nose, that kept the nostrils open wider, allowing them to breathe more easily. The Russian Christopher Lilly 11:03, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

You could read the article on snoring, particularly the part on treatment. Or this, or this, or this...etc. etc. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:22, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Snoring may be a sign of a pathological condition and advice on its prevention may amount to medical advice. Having said that the treatment of snoring, like the treatment of a number of common human conditions is not easy to relieve. You may notice that there are many alleged cures for snoring, this should tell you that none of them are really effective. The same principle applies for, say, treatment of haemorrhoids or the common cold. I propose Murphy's Treatments Law which states that the more treatments available or alleged for any said condition the less likely any of them will cure the condition. Richard Avery (talk) 11:36, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I know an ex-soldier. He told me that when one of his mates snored, they'd kick him, hard. Apparently, he soon learned not to snore. Note: I'm not recommending this approach, but it has a certain logic to it! --Dweller (talk) 12:00, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

_{Ah, God Bless our brave heroes!} —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.4.186.107 (talk) 13:29, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I used to snore a lot. At boarding school my roommate used to hit me on the head with hockey stick when I snored. After doing this a few dozen times, he found that he merely had to say my name in a threatening manner. almost-instinct 16:27, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Snoring can be a symptom of a sleep disorder, and that can have negative effects on you over time, as it can make the heart work harder for one thing. You should discuss this with a doctor, who might recommend a sleep study, in which they can determine the extent, if any, of your sleep disorder. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:09, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Bugs, snoring is a sign not a symptom. How does snoring make the heart work harder? Why is that a problem? Having sex makes your heart beat faster, do you advise that we all desist for the sake of our health? The heart was designed to work hard at times, this is why regular exercise which increases the heart rate is generally good for us. Nevertheless I broadly agree with your remarks. Caesar's Daddy (talk) 14:57, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Snoring can be connected with sleep apnea, a sleep disorder which makes the heart work harder than it wants to by causing the sleeper to wake up frequently during the night. We're getting into the realm of medical advice here. "See a doctor" is reasonable advice to any OP. "Don't see a doctor" is medical advice, which we're not qualified to give. I am somewhat qualified to discuss sleep apnea in general terms, since I have it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:08, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

"snoring is a sign not a symptom" ... What!? "sign" is the laymen's term for "symptom". A symptom is "a phenomenon that arises from and accompanies a particular disease or disorder and serves as an indication of it." -- kainaw™ 19:29, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

My understanding is that a "sign" is something objectively observable to a third party such as a doctor (e.g. a limp, posture, discoloration etc etc) whereas a "symptom" is something perceptible only to the sufferer, such as a pain or sensation: do you have references to the contrary, Kainaw? Since snoring nearly always occurs only during sleep, it is rarely directly perceptible to the sufferer, but very obvious to anyone else present. As Bugs says, snoring can be part of more serious problems that can interrupt breathing entirely for many seconds, straining the heart, and can cause frequent but unremembered waking during the night, leading to extreme daytime tiredness or even narcolepsy, which is especially dangerous if the sufferer drives or operates (other) 'heavy machinery.' At the very least it can often indicate health-threatening overweight. Definitely worth consulting a doctor over, even if one lives in an uncivilised country </snark> where this would involve some extra expense. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 21:31, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. Whether it's a sign, a symptom, an e-mail, a telegram or a message delivered by homing pigeon, going to the doctor would be a good thing to do. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:10, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Yamaha XJ 900

I checked on this bike and saw that it was last manufactured in 1994. The seller insists that it is a 2006. Is this possible?41.112.210.79 (talk) 16:19, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

We have an article on Yamaha Diversion which lists some replacement models that were manufactured after that model, however a quick scan of it reveals that production for the last line of those may have ended in 2003. cheers, 10draftsdeep (talk) 17:52, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Don't bikes have a 'VIN number' like a car that you could look up someplace? SteveBaker (talk) 20:12, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

It may be that the bike has been rebuilt. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 22:36, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

It may be...but that wouldn't give the seller the right to call it a 2006 bike. You'd normally say something like "It's a 1994 bike that was completely rebuilt in 2006". SteveBaker (talk) 18:46, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Digging and construction by North Circular Road in N London

Hi

I'm curious as to what all the work is that's being done in N London alongside the North Circular Road (A406) that's been causing disruption to traffic for a few weeks already, just where the road is narrowest (3 lanes shared between the two directions).

For context, it's where the road makes a very sharp (right-angled) bend in the Southgate area. Anyone who knows the road well will remember the "chicken lane" that used to exist there, that traffic in either direction could use - whoever was bravest!

I think it's a separate project from some large scale renovation work of derelict properties in the exact same place that's going on simultaneously.

Struggling to find info myself, so any useful leads gratefully received. --Dweller (talk) 16:37, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

You could try http://public.londonworks.gov.uk/roadworks/help which /might/ let you know what's going on. http://public.londonworks.gov.uk/roadworks/?x=PqwiPIlDs8nql7vlYfLxGQ (if it works) lists everying happening in the Southgate area. --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:31, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Amazing site, thank you. --Dweller (talk) 17:52, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity do you know if there's sucha site for Swansea, South Wales? As a driving instructor it helps to plan routes if you know what roadworks are on and for how long... Plus I'm nosey! hehe Gazhiley (talk) 14:00, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

http://www.traffic-wales.com/ would seem to be your friend. Not sure how far down it resolves - may be trunk roads only. But looks like there's lots of good stuff in there. There's also http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/southwest/travel/ which seems to have some great resources. --Tagishsimon (talk) 14:42, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Does anyone know what these kind of puzzles are called?

Hello wikipedia, im a highschool student in my final year and i wish to get into medicine. In Australia, you need to take the UMAT to get into medicine. It's intended to be a sort of general aptitude test, similar to an IQ test i guess you could say with a more medical skew. You're not really meant to undertake any-kind of preparation or study for it, however preparation coursesexist for it anyway. These are very expensive and i dont have a lot of money, i doubt their effectiveness anyway. (I guess this is why a lot of rich kids only get into medicine here, along with other factors)

The umat is broken up into 3 sections, the first two i believe you cant really prepare for, however the 3rd section has puzzles (there are some pictures below) i think you can ace this section and get 100% if you practice the puzzles until can do them in a heartbeat. The preperation course fee includes a program that generates an unlimited amount of these puzzles, something similar to that would be nice a link perhaps or even a website with a couple pre-rendered images. I'd settle for just the name of the type of puzzle however.

http://i48.tinypic.com/okvsxz.png - Image 1 http://i50.tinypic.com/14e9iis.png - Image 2

~Cheers, kp. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.180.104.23 (talk) 18:06, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

They're called various things, like "non-verbal reasoning" tests. This link, for example, might be helpful. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 19:06, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

These are really intended as general IQ tests - and they are supposed to be designed in such a manner that practicing them doesn't help and also such that the score you obtain won't change significantly throughout your life. The theory is that if you aren't smart enough to get the right answer, you won't understand why the correct one is correct. Lack of that understanding is what prevents you from learning and improving with practice. That said, you can gain modest improvements through practice - mainly because the tests are imperfect in their goals. SteveBaker (talk) 20:10, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

If you want more, I suggest searching for IQ tests online (the sort that put 50% of the population at 130+), until you find one with this sort of question. Most will be a mix of these and other sorts. - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 20:21, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

A variant of the Raven's progressive matrices.--droptone (talk) 13:23, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Barcode - what country is it?

Hello. I have a product with barcode as following: 2902 2717. What country does it come from? What is the name of such code? 83.31.109.65 (talk) 20:14, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Our article section Barcode#Types of barcodes has a list of many barcode standards. I would hesitate to guess because many of the standards have variable numbers of digits, meaning your 8-digit code could be any of those. Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:28, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

It would help to know what the product is, as some types of barcode are only used in particular applications. I'd hazard a guess that it may be an EAN 8 barcode. If so, the first three digits are the GS1 country code - but 290 is apparently "Restricted distribution", so it could be from anywhere. Warofdreams talk 21:23, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Looking for a kind of watch

Good evening,

The past week I've been searching all over the internet to find a specific kind of watch. I'm looking for a watch which has only one hand which goes from 0 to 12 (doh) ánd back. So like this:

hope this works

Once I saw one, but I could never find it again.. Does this kind of watch has a special name? Could you provide me with some examples please?

Thanks! Sealedinskin (talk) 20:16, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I've seen a clock built like that: http://gradbert.org/wordpress/?p=5 - this one has hours, minutes and seconds. But I don't know of a name or where you saw the watch. SteveBaker (talk) 02:30, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I've seen watches like that at high-end watch stores (I know The Swiss Watchmaker has one at the moment). No clue on the name, though. I suppose you could contact them. --Mr.98 (talk) 17:47, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Guess what. I happened to go by a watch shop today and I asked. They belong to a broad category of what are called jump hour watches. --Mr.98 (talk) 19:01, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

We do not (yet) have an article about jump hour watches, but they are mentioned in Cortébert (watch manufacturer) and Chronoswiss (which appears to be a blatant copyright violation, but I can't research at this time as I am behind a corporate firewall). --LarryMac | Talk 19:27, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

It's not one big copyvio anymore.  :-) Dismas|^(talk) 20:58, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks guys, I managed to find some interesting links looking for 'jump hour watches', although most results only have the 'rotating background' which displays the hours instead of the hence and forth going arm. But thanks again. Sealedinskin (talk) 21:55, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I was unable to look at your linked graphic before (see previously mentioned firewall issues), and I see now that it's not at all like the jump hour watches that I saw in our articles. But I'm a little confused - what happens in your diagram when it is one hour past noon? Does the hand swing all the way back to the left? Or does it point to 11? --LarryMac | Talk 00:40, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

OK, some more googling and some more refinement. What you are talking about is, I believe, called a "retrograde jump hour" watch. I think they refer to the fact that they have to jump all the way back to the beginning instead of completing a circle—something that probably requires the jump hour mechanism, but is not just that. (But I don't really know for sure if that's why it is called that or if that is exactly how it works.) Here are some of the ones I found searching using those terms: Here's a nice one. Here's a really crazy one. And another. And the second one on this page is a beauty, for only $8,350. If you put "retrograde jump hour watch" into eBay, you get a bunch of (impressively expensive) results as well. --Mr.98 (talk) 00:59, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Font Identification (BBC DVDs)

Hello,

Does anyone know what the font used on this DVD cover is? I believe all the text (apart from "BBC Video" and "2 disc set") on this particular cover uses the same font, but to be specific, I'm referring to the font used for the "THE COMPLETE SERIES" text. I've also seen this font used on other BBC DVD covers, perhaps mostly notably at the top of covers for the Red Dwarf DVDs. Any ideas as to what font it might be would be appreciated - it's always struck me as a rather nicely proportioned sans serif.

Thanks!

- Hiram J. Hackenbacker (talk) 22:05, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

It _isn't_ Colin Samuels, but it's close to it... Tevildo (talk) 23:27, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

My second suggestion is Eurostile Heavy. Closer, but still not quite there. I agree that a specialist font site would be a good idea. Tevildo (talk) 23:47, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Hiram, you may get a quicker response at What the Font forum, which specializes in such questions. Abecedare (talk) 23:31, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion - I've posted a case on that site. Hiram J. Hackenbacker (talk) 00:18, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Looks like Eurostile Heavy with a 140% or so horizontal scale. (Which is very easy to do in a layout program.) --Mr.98 (talk) 16:57, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Roller skating

A friend of mine seems to think that roller skating is a pursuit which is perceived as feminine by society. We both live in the UK. I've no idea how to Google up an answer, so I turn to you! Are skates feminine in society's eyes? Vimescarrot (talk) 22:05, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Roller skating might be, roller blading (ie. inline skating) certainly isn't. Which are you interested it? --Tango (talk) 22:21, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Inline skating - although now I come to think about it, I forgot to mention that to my friend! Might explain it! Vimescarrot (talk) 22:21, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

International Roller Sports Federation would disagree, as would all of the male skaters who participate in quad roller skating at the Pan American Games. Woogee (talk) 23:47, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

That would be like someone asking you if wrestling had a masculine image to it and you providing links to female wrestling. Sports are special, because males and females both compete. Sorry, I won't be able to explain this, so I would just say I'd like to keep sports separate (by the way, I am Vimes' friend he refers to above). --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 00:31, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

(EC)In the US, it might be that roller skating is associated with a practice of yesteryear, and when depicted as popular culture (such as in an episode of That 70s Show) it may be depicted as camp, which may itself be perceived as effeminate. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 00:19, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand what KageTora is trying to say. Roller speed skating is not competed by both males and females in the same races, any more than cycling, rowing, or swimming are. Are those sports conceptually masculine vs. feminine? And what makes roller skating more feminine than ice skating? Woogee (talk) 02:06, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I didn't say or imply that any sport was practised by both males or females in the same races. I said I wanted to keep sports out of it because of reasons that I'd rather not try to explain because I know the internet well enough to know that if I make a single mistake on a minor point this thread will be hijacked by someone and the entire point will be lost in discussing back and forth that minor point. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 16:47, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

This is not a scientific question and not all "perceptions" of a society are completely rooted in facts and reality. This is why there are still many gender inequalities which exist in western societies even if a lot of people perceive that men and women are treated equally. I used to go to the rink when I was a kid but I would have to agree now that roller-skating is perceived as retro, camp and effeminate, by some people anyway, more people then would perceive it to be the opposite. Vespine (talk) 03:07, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Never having been to the UK, I don't know if you have these, but in the States we have drive-in restaurants like A&W Restaurants and Sonic Drive-In. At these places it is not unheard of to see the waitresses on rollerblades. And in decades past, they would wear roller skates. It was more prevalent in the past but you can still see it from time to time. The servers are predominantly female and therefore a stereotype might be built on this. Dismas|^(talk) 03:23, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

FWIW, I believe staff of both seses at Tesco in Peterborough UK use roller skates to get around the store. Also I moved link for Roller skating from heading to first line. -- SGBailey (talk) 09:45, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Carrefour - a huge hypermarket group in Europe - have their supervisors on roller skates.Froggie34 (talk) 14:49, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Interesting info, and productive too, I think. Thanks for all the responses. The pictures of KageTora in rollerblades will be online before 2011. Vimescarrot (talk) 21:22, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

January 13

Fame in USA

I've suddenly become very worried by the possibility that the most famous British person in the US is Simon Cowell. Firstly, how can I verify this? Secondly, what can I do about it? (ps actors don't count, as they're not famous for being themselves) almost-instinct 11:16, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Excluding actors makes life a little difficult for yourself. Also defining 'most famous' is tough. You could do something as rudimentary as go based on number of google-hits with their name in speech-marks and the web address being a .com (but that's a problem as .com is both US and international). Alongside Simon Cowell, and excluding actors you could put such people as the Queen (Elizabeth the II) and bands such as The Beatles (sure they're not still performing but in terms of fame they're still hugely famous) and many other popular UK based bands. I'm not sure why you'd rule out actors, given that actors are a huge part of the group of people we'd define as 'famous'. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 12:23, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Actors are just doing and saying what they're told to do or say by their script - eg Hugh Laurie in House is British but that has no bearing on the bulk of his fame in the US. almost-instinct 12:29, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

You also get actors who end up doing other notable things - Ricky Gervais, for example, is hosting the Golden Globes. In the short term, that skews the numbers as far as fame and popularity (which aren't always the same). You'll want to know if you're searching for the most famous British person now, or at a certain point in the year. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 13:16, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I suppose I would what to take Gervais' overall fame and deduct the purely acting part, leaving the British Guy On My TV portion. And I mean now-ish. Obviously, I'm in no position to be fussy ;-) almost-instinct 13:20, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

"Actors are just doing and saying ... by their script..." - How do you know that "reality show" hosts are any different? Mitch Ames (talk) 02:48, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

This question does not seem suitable for the reference desk, as it looks more like a request for a comment or an opinion. --Saddhiyama (talk) 12:39, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

To confirm: this is not a request for a comment or an opinion. To rephrase my first question: How can I can quantify Simon Cowell's fame in the US compared with other non-actor British people? almost-instinct 13:18, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

An objective measure of someone's fame could be the number or quantity of mentions in the media serving that group (in this case the US), weighted by the circulation of those media. Another dimension could be the quality of the fame - for example I expect Elizabeth Taylor gets less mentions than some fad popette, but many people would regard her as being more famous. Some people become houshold names - a survey could be done which compares the product recognition of Simon Cowell with other celebs. I suppose you could reduce someones fame by reducing their exposure in the various media. A lot of public people are almost instantly forgotten as soon as they stop appearing on tv or other media for one reason or another. There have been academic and other books and papers published about fame or celebrity - try searching in Google Scholar or Google Books. 92.24.99.218 (talk) 13:24, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

More generally, see Proxy (statistics). You'll have to come up with a measure or measures you think correlate with fame, along the lines of suggestions made above. Good luck with that. --Tagishsimon (talk) 14:46, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Also, your conditions aare a little haphazard and arbitrary. You want to exclude the quotient of fame attaching to actors, leaving only their UK-fame-ness; but you do not want to apply the same condition to the Cowell, and exclude the fame ataching to his activity as host of a karaoke competition. That doesn't compute for me, but your milage may vary. --Tagishsimon (talk) 14:51, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

See also Q Score -- I think it's exactly the type of measurement you're looking for, though note that as it's valuable marketing info you likely won't be able to get your hands on it. — Lomn 14:47, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you! I suppose actual values I could put into my yet-to-be-decided-on formula could include the Q score, minutes spent onscreen, viewing figures per minute, value to advertisers (either through personal endorsement or value of advertising on the shows appeared on) number of articles in the press, number of gratuitous references in the press, number of appearances on chat shows ... any more? Do any American publications produce annual lists of, say, Influential Celebreties? almost-instinct 15:00, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

It depends on what is meant by "influential". You'll have publications like People with a "most intriguing people" issue. But that doesn't measure their influence, just maybe their visibility. Seems to me that Time or Newsweek had a writeup sometime back about the 100 most influential people in the world. Sorry about the vagueness, but you might be able to google it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:29, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Given what I'm asking, I'm in no position to quibble with anyone else's vagueness :-) almost-instinct 16:36, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I have a 1960s Quiz book that was written in the early 70s. Here and there it asks "Who was...?" about someone who had a short time in the public eye. One of those questions is about Regis Philbin, who at that time was known pretty much just for being Joey Bishop's talk show backup. Your average American certainly knows who Regis is now, and might be saying, "Joey who?" So he's a lot more famous. But is he very much more influential? And in what way? It's a slippery concept. The article about the influential had many names unknown outside of a specific profession, but were nonetheless regarded as highly influential. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:32, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

By analogy with consumer products, some celebrities may get a lot of mentions in the media, but not have much impact with the public. Like a heavily-advertised new product that does not sell very well. Others may have little media attention but be noticed and remembered by the public. So you need to decide if you are going to measure the quantity of mentions in the media, the quantity of exposure of an average member of the public to them, or the extent to which people are aware of them and remember them. 92.24.99.218 (talk) 16:37, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I believe that there are surveys of which celebrities are most recognized, but I can't immeditely lay my hands on one. In a paper in the Annals of Improbable Research, the highest-ranked British persons collectively are the Beatles, and the highest-ranked individual is George Harrison. However, the list is not comprehensive and does not include, for example, Elizabeth II or Princess Diana (either of whom is, in my subjective opinion, better known to Americans than Simon Cowell), nor does it include Cowell himself. John M Baker (talk) 17:12, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I am an American who has never heard of Simon Cowell but who knows of many other notable people in the UK. Marco polo (talk) 17:20, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Consider yourself lucky :-) almost-instinct 17:41, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm a Brit (quite a well-informed one, I hope) who has never ever heard of Regis Philbin (see above). Is that a good thing? Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:55, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

He's been an American TV presence for a long time now, on talk shows and game shows. But he seldom does movies or TV series as such, so it's very possible he would be little known outside the USA. As far as Simon Cowell goes, I know of him but I never watch the shows he's on, but whether he's better known among the average American than ERII or Diana, would be an interesting survey to take. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:26, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

saw

Who konw saw IV Mark Hoffman (Saw) working department name ?-58.152.255.207 (talk) 14:49, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid your question is not clear. Can you try to rephrase it? --Mr.98 (talk) 16:13, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Erm... I think the question is: "What was the police department Mark Hoffman worked in Saw IV called?". I suppose. TomorrowTime (talk) 17:41, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Guinness World Record citation please (1997—2001 and 2002+)

Do you have a Guinness Book of World Records, for any year 1997—2001 or for 2002+. I'm looking for a citation for The Theatre of Small Convenience, Malvern, England, which claims to be the smallest theatre (building) in the world since 2002, and for the Piccolo Theatre, Hamburg, Germany, the previous record holder. If you have one or both books, it would be great if you could provide citation details (title, publisher, edition, page, authors (?) & ISBN) to verify both claims. GyroMagician (talk) 15:32, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

All I can tell you is that the GBR for 1991 (ed. Donald McFarlan, ISBN 0-85112-374-0, Guinness Publishing Ltd.) lists the Piccolo as the smallest theatre, on p.163. If you Google "smallest theatre in the world you will get competing claims today.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 17:38, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that, that's a good start. Yes, I thought there might be competing claims. I think it's all in the wording - The TSC claim to be the smallest theatre (building). I think the building part is key, for their claim at least. But I'd like to have it from the horses mouth, just to be sure! GyroMagician (talk) 18:46, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

The 2002 edition, page 196, describes the TSC as "the smallest commercial theatre" in the world. The previous edition in my library, the 1997 edition, page 146, says the Piccolo is "the smallest regularly operated professional theatre". Reconcile the difference in the wording as you may. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 18:56, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Excellent! It's slightly absurd, but perfect for the claim on my page - now updated. I'll ignore the difference in wording, and hope I never get into a discussion about it. Thank you both very much. GyroMagician (talk) 21:15, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Arabic Translation

Can someone who speaks Arabic tell me what this means?

منيح منيح :) أنا مصري.

Luthinya (talk) 16:52, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Why don't you ask on the language desk? Anyway, Google Translate says: "Minih Minih:) I am an Egyptian."--Mr.98 (talk) 17:10, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Funny, Google said, "Minih Minih:) I'm from Egypt" to me. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 17:13, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

It depends on the punctuation. If you remove the period at the end, it changes it. I don't know Arabic so I don't know why that might be. But rather asking us blind men, they ought to ask at the Language desk, where people can probably explain it more accurately. --Mr.98 (talk) 17:43, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Advice taken. Somehow I did not spot the Language Desk the first time round...foolish of me. Thank you all! Luthinya (talk) 21:24, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

National Insurance number and privacy

When I apply for a job in the UK, I have to give my National Insurance number. Just wondering how I can find out how much information about me that allows my prospective employer to see? I am aware that nobody here can give me a definite answer, cause that would be legal advice, so I'm just looking for hints about what search terms I should use. The National Insurance article here doesn't mention privacy, and I've tried googling "national insurance number"+privacy, but didn't find anything helpful. Any hints would be most welcome. cheers! 89.195.20.176 (talk) 21:14, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

(OR) - The only experience I have of this is using NiNOs to cross-check you names and dates of birth agsinst details provided for an English course for recent immigrants. So they must be able to find out those two pieces of information from it, at least--86.25.237.165 (talk) 22:33, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) Your NI number is used by your employer to make payments on your behalf to HM Revenue & Customs so that you build up contributions towards your State Pension entitlement. If it is a genuine number, then your emplyer has no legal access to any information about you whatsoever. There may be some very limited information (such as previous names and addresses) exchanged if the number is not genuine. As far as I know, there is no obligation on you to give your NI number until you have a contract of employment. I wonder why a prospective employer is asking for this, unless they have had problems with illegal immigrants in the past. HM Revenue & Customs hold a database which includes previous names, addresses and date of birth, but this is not available to employers and is used only for checking purposes. Dbfirs 22:37, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

(later) Prospective employers are able to check that the name and date of birth that you have given correspond to your NI number. Most employers will not need to do this in advance because the information is automatically checked free of charge after the first pay-day, but some will wish to pay for a "pre-check" if they have had problems with employees giving fake details in the past. Dbfirs 22:52, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Here in Canada the equivalent of the NI number is the Social Insurance Number. The SIN (as it is called) allows you find out quite a lot of things about you, especially credit checks, and is a much sought-after piece of information by identity thieves. I would recommend not giving either number to anyone not entitled to have it. Your employer is of course entitled to have it, and you'll have to trust them not to misuse it. Of course you are already trusting them since they employ you. DJ Clayworth (talk) 01:00, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Long Beach Municipal Airport and various of small airports in LA

Is there any difference between orange county airport and municipal airports. Is the airprot in Compton Airport, El Monte Airport Santa Monica Aiport is these likely for out of state. Could they go to Mexico or New York or the Midwest? Or those airports is only west coast states. Since Municipal means city and orange county could be international because it goes to Mexico.--209.129.85.4 (talk) 21:22, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

John Wayne Airport is owned by Orange County, California. It's the only commercial airport in Orange County. The List of airports in the Los Angeles area shows larger airports such as Los Angeles International. That list also shows Compton, El Monte, and Santa Monica (among others) as general aviation airport, which usually means small private planes. --- OtherDave (talk) 22:01, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

WHat's the contrast between small private planes and public access airports? Does private ones menas only certain groups can access the airports for business purpose or it just menas the airplane tickets costs is higher?--209.129.85.4 (talk) 22:15, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I think you should read our lengthy airport article. It also has links to articles about specific types of airports. Orange County airport has scheduled passenger service; like LAX or other airports you're probably familiar with, it's serviced by many airlines and people can just walk in and buy a ticket and fly somewhere. Some general aviation airports don't have any scheduled passenger service; you drive up to the air service's building and you rent a plane to fly it somewhere, or you take a flying lesson, or their pilot flies you where you want to go, or whatever. (You would call them in advance of your visit.) Many airports, including John Wayne Airport, have both the regular passenger terminal and the GA "terminals". Anyone can buy a ticket from a private operator like this; it's not restricted to "certain groups". The cost of having a pilot fly you in a Cessna or Piper to where you want to go will be much higher than getting a ticket at any airline that services regular passenger terminals. Comet Tuttle (talk) 00:31, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Diffusion of the wiki

Please provide me with data showing the growth of users on your site since the start of 2001. I am trying to create an S curve demonstrating the diffusion of the wiki. Technomamab (talk) 23:16, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Everything we have is in pages linked from Wikipedia:Statistics -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 23:20, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Also, I might be misreading this (in which case, disregard please), but your wording ("your site") seems to indicate you think this site is in some way centrally planed, when it is in fact completely community-driven (grass roots, so to say (my, I do use a lot of parentheses, don't I)), and there is no real central committee, just community rules. I think that's an important point to note if you are researching the wikipedia phenomenon. TomorrowTime (talk) 23:47, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

That's not 100% true - we do have the Wikimedia Foundation - they own things like the name, the logo and the domain names - and since they collect money and pay wages for the (tiny) staff and also provide servers, etc, they do (in effect) "own" the site. SteveBaker (talk) 01:42, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Not just in effect. The quite literally and exactly own Wikipedia. --Jayron32 02:57, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, they own "Wikipedia" the name (and associated trade dress), and the physical servers on which Wikipedia is hosted, but they don't own the content of Wikipedia. All contributions to Wikipedia are still copyrighted (owned) by their contributors. The Wikimedia Foundation simply has a non-exclusive right to their use. -- 70.90.187.65 (talk) 04:39, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

January 14

Round protrusions on side of 18-wheeler trailer

What are the 6 (a bit of a 7th one is visible on the right edge) round things on the side of this truck? Some of them are dented in. Thanks -- Sean —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.182.94.172 (talk) 00:40, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Ventilators maybe? SteveBaker (talk) 01:35, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Light? Bus stop (talk) 01:52, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

New York Question

In a multi-storey building in New York, what would the 'Metro Level' be? --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 00:54, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to guess, and could be totally wrong, that it's the level at which the "Metro" station is, i.e. the commuter train, likely below street level. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:56, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I thought it would be. Just like Paris, right? :) Thanks! --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 01:01, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

This article[13] which I actually found by googling ["empire state building" "metro level"] on a hunch, where it talks about Bloomingdale's, indicates that the metro level is indeed the subway level. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:05, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Cheers, Bugs! Funnily enough, that is the EXACT building I am writing about! --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 01:30, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Nice searching, BB. Bus stop (talk) 01:08, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Here I find a sentence on the same topic: "The new Metro Level (call it anything but the basement, pleeease) is only the first phase …" Bus stop (talk) 01:14, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Cheers, Bus Stop! I will remember that! --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 01:30, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Cheers, KageTora! Bus stop (talk) 01:40, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

How did we get in Boston? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:24, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Weird wind turbine google earth shadow

Hi all. There is a wind turbine at Lat 52.656818, Long 0.683378. The google earth image seems to show a tower without the nacelle and blades. But the shadow seems to indicate their presence. Anyone know how this can be explained? Thanks. - Akamad (talk) 01:04, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

For reference, Google Maps link here. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 01:09, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

The Swaffham E66

Incidentally this page and this one say that that this turbine (on Turbine Way in Swaffham) is an Enercon E66 like this one; it's apparently part of this place, and indeed Wikipedia has a photo of this precise turbine (right). -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 01:16, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

These people have spotted the same anomaly and theorise as to why. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 01:22, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

And for no reason other than completeness, here is a short documentary about climbing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwmalCmwtFU -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 01:37, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

First of all, here is a proper link [14]. There are a couple of possibilities:

1. There could be a seam between two photos taken at different times running nearby. The mapping system blends those maps together to try to hide the seam. What can happen is that (perhaps) the tower was built - the first photo taken - then the generator and blades were added and the second photo taken. The result might be that the shadow fell into one photo and the tower into the other. However, such seams are generally much more obvious - so I suspect that's not it in this case.
2. Google's photos are often taken by aircraft flying up and down in regular strips over the ground - in order to keep the number of strips to a minimum and thereby save fuel, time and money - they don't just take 'looking straight down' photos - but also photos that look sideways out over the ground. Because the Google Maps interface is presenting a more or less straight down view, the mapping software tries to correct for tall objects that come out weirdly when a photo taken on a slant is presented as a plan-view map. This correction relies on the software correctly estimating the height of the object. The way they calculate that height is by comparing two photos taken a few seconds apart as the airplane flies along - when you compare those two photos, the tops of taller objects move relative to the ground beneath them from one photo to the next. The software can figure that out and apply the necessary corrections.

I'm betting that it's the second of those things: OK - now consider a windmill. The blades are spinning in the wind. This will confuse the height-estimation software because the blades are moving either much more or much less compared to the ground than an object of that height should (depending on which direction our photo-plane was flying). The height estimation software may simply be confused into doing crazy stretching or shrinking - or it may have clever tricks to recognise this situation. We know Google's software does things like that because it's not often confused by things like cars driving along roads that are roughly parallel to the direction of flight of the plane. However, what it probably does in cases of confusion is to remove these fast-moving features completely...and I'm 99% sure that's what happened here.

It conveniently explains why the tower is being drawn - but the moving parts are gone. I'm a little surprised that the blades weren't also removed in the shadow - but this is a complex situation - and Google don't publicize the fine details of their algorithms for height data extraction and motion detection - so we can only speculate.

SteveBaker (talk) 01:24, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

The 1st theory would entail the pre-construction and post-construction photos to have both been taken when the sun was at pretty much the same angle (despite being perhaps weeks apart); that seems like too much of a coincidence. The 2nd theory (at least some kind of strip-stitching artifact) is credible. It works even without a height-estimation issue, if the strips are horizontal (that is West-East), which an evident stitch boundary a little north would support. In this case, by coincidence, the blades and the tower end up in different strips. The frame used for the tower has the arms in a Y position, but they two upward ones are cut off and the lower one hidden by the tower. A different configuration is visible in the strip used for the shadow section. The two strips may have been taken maybe 30 minutes apart, or maybe Google's plane has multiple cameras (as the streetview car does) and they don't care about perfect time synchronisation when merging their view (bar weird stuff like this, they wouldn't need to). -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 01:34, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Maybe the blades are included in the picture but the plane in which the blades lie is such that they are all but invisible from our vantage point. Bus stop (talk) 03:13, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

5 people in NYC cab?

Can three adults and two children ride in a NYC cab? Bubba73 ^{(Who's attacking me now?)}, 01:54, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Possibly. I googled ["new york" taxi how many people] and it led me to this city government page [15] which gives a variable answer. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:22, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Depends on whether it's an SUV or sedan vehicle, and whether the front passenger seat is currently occupied by the driver's shopping/laundry/dinner. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 02:46, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

It also depends on where you want to go; it may be almost as convenient and much cheaper to take the New York City Subway. --Jayron32 02:53, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Do they still have "jump seats" in cabs? Or are those considered unsafe now? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:55, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

We are planning a tourist trip that will go to several places. I'm getting too old to do too much walking (I can go a few miles a day). Efficient use of our time is important. Bubba73 ^{(Who's attacking me now?)}, 03:15, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I figured you weren't asking just from curiosity. :) You might want to call Yellow Cab or whatever, and find out what your options are. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:37, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

clothing line made of money

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