Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

Welcome — ask about reliability of sources in context!

Before posting, check the archives and list of perennial sources for prior discussions. Context is important: supply the source, the article it is used in, and the claim it supports. Additional notes: RFCs for deprecation, blacklisting, or other classification should not be opened unless the source is widely used and has been repeatedly discussed. Consensus is assessed based on the weight of policy-based arguments. While the consensus of several editors can generally be relied upon, answers are not policy. This page is not a forum for general discussions unrelated to the reliability of sources. Start a new discussion

steve earle songs in films

Betrayed is a movie with debra winger released in 1988. The song devils right hand is in opening credits.

Are "poetic journals" a reliable source for encyclopedia articles?

The article Renku currently uses featured articles from twothree online "journals" of haiku and renku as sources. In fact, at least 10 of the 18 references are to these works.

My concern is that the journals are not scholarly in nature. The articles are almost without exception written by non-specialists in literary history (professional and amateur poets, for the most part) and are being used as sources for Japanese literary history. I am also concerned that articles written for poetic publications by the poets themselves are essentially primary sources, and do not therefore say anything about the notability of their subject-matter.

Almost all of these sources were added by one user, Bagworm, who has without explanation deleted accurate information from the article in the past[1][2], and has used these primary sources as justification for including some rather suspect material.[3]

elvenscout742 (talk) 08:16, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

One of the editors of the Journal of Renga and Renku is an accountant.[4]. It's new and probably quite nice, but I don't see how it could be a reliable source. And she was an editor of SimplyHaiku.com also, which casts doubts on that one. I'm not sure what the third one is. The default for sources is not reliable, so I'd argue that it is unlikely that these are reliable and that to use them someone would have to make a good case that they are. Dougweller (talk) 15:37, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

sources to not have to be scholarly. Published poets, particularly professional poets, writing on the history of poetry are a potentially usable source; certainly they are reliable for opinions in the field. DGG ( talk ) 20:02, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

But what about when an accountant writes about Japanese literary history? Simply being a poet (or claiming that title for oneself) doesn't lend legitimacy to one's views an area that learned scholars have been researching for decades. Also, the views of non-notable poets (as defined by the GNG) really don't need to be given significant space in Wikipedia articles, I should think. elvenscout742 (talk) 07:32, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

That's the point I was trying to make, obviously not well enough. Dougweller (talk) 10:52, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

We then have to inquire why such a journal would publish an article by an accountant. Perhaps he is a recognized expert by the criteria of the editors of the journal. And obviously the reputation of any specific poet when writing about poetry is relevant also. Is the journal known for publishing what anyone sends it, or is it carefully edited for quality? [([Wallace Stevens]], for example, was a lawyer for an insurance firm, and preferred that position to a chair at Harvard.) DGG ( talk ) 17:46, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

The reason for that would seem to be that it's not an academic journal that puts emphasis on accuracy or reliability: it's an outlet for poets (professional and amateur) to publish their own original poetry. Additionally, it came up in the article in question, but are we allowed to say "In recent years ... renku have been written in French, Croatian, Swahili, etc. etc.", and include links to one renku each from said poetic journal as "sources"? This seems to me like it violates WP:NOR in its original assessment of primary sources. elvenscout742 (talk) 05:01, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

The journals are not apparently known for publishing articles by respected literary historians (they do on occasion print interviews and non-academic articles by scholars, though). However, they have also published similar material by hack authors like Jeffrey Woodward who only pretend to know what they are talking about but make embarrassing gaffes regularly. My main concern is that a few users have taken what were previously well-written but under-referenced articles about classical Japanese literature, and replaced much of the content with information about modern, apparently non-notable poetry in English. (I'm not sure if I should shut up about this, though, since the user primarily responsible for this has interacted with me negatively on Wikipedia before, and researching the background of these journals I think I accidentally found out the real-world identity of the user.) elvenscout742 (talk) 06:49, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Al-Arabiya and the Syrian civil war

I would like to get an answer weather is the Saudi Al Arabiya, owned by the kings relatives, reliable source regarding the Syrian civil war (English-language Al Arabiya; Arbaic-language Al Arabiya).

Saudi Arabia is involved in the Syrian civil war (as you can see in the infobox) as it supports the Free Syrian Army and the jihadists; and since the Al Arabiya is a media controled by the king's relatives, it is logical that it can not be reliable source regarding the Syrian civil war.

--Wüstenfuchs 01:50, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Rupert Murdoch's best friend is David Cameron. I guess that means the British Prime Minister controls Fox News. We must cease the use of Fox News for editing British current events at once. Sopher99 (talk) 02:38, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

You are comparing Saudi Arabia and the United Kingdom? In Saudi Arabia you have a nepotist government where king's relatives do every government duty... --Wüstenfuchs 06:48, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I think that line of argument is unhelpful. Is there a particular piece of content which you think Al Arabiya should not be used to support? bobrayner (talk) 23:29, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Since Fox News was brought into this, I can't see why we would ever use it for British current events. Britain actually has its own well-respected news sources with a better reputation than Fox News. Dougweller (talk) 10:54, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

... and back to the original question ... Al Arabiya is considered to be an established outlet per Wikipedia:RS#News_organizations, so, in general, considered reliable for our standards. That does not mean it is necessarily unbiased. In something as emotional as the Syrian civil war, in which most of the countries of the world have expressed support for one side or the other, it is hard to find any source that is completely unbiased. For contentious information, it may sometimes be useful to cite the source by name, something like: "Al Arabiya stated that ...". Please be specific as to what item of content in the article you are asking about, it is possible specific items may have more specific answers. --GRuban (talk) 21:34, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Indie shuffle

Is [5] a reliable source for this BLP[6]. Thanks. Note that it is the only source in the article - maybe this guy isn't notable enough for us anyway. Dougweller (talk) 15:24, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

The relevant guideline here might be WP:NEWSBLOG in that the bottom of the page states "Indie Shuffle is a member of SPIN Music Group, a division of BUZZMEDIA." The statement within the Wikipedia article gives the impression that the album has received many notable, favorable views and I'm not convinced that one non-notable blogger's opinion is sufficient to support that... or the overall notability of the subject. Location (talk) 15:44, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

There are other sources for Max Lugavere the person, however. Fast Company Vogue Italia. --GRuban (talk) 17:47, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Tagging of self-published sources

I stumble across various self-publishing companies such as Trafford Publishing and iUniverse quite frequently. In List of The X-Files episodes, is it appropriate to tag a Trafford book in the bibliography (i.e. Kessenich, Tom (2002). Examination. New York: Trafford Publishing. ISBN 1-55369-812-6.) with {{Self-published source}}? In Bohemian Grove, is it appropriate to tag an iUniverse book in the bibliography (i.e. Hanson, Mike. Bohemian Grove: Cult Of Conspiracy, iUniverse Inc, 2004) with {{Self-published source}}?

My tag of the former was reverted with the explanation: "while this is an accurate tag, i'm not seeing what its purpose is. unless the accuracy and validity of the source is being actively questioned why should we tag it with something?" My impression is that the tag is to alert other editors to material that does not have editor oversight and may not have been checked for accuracy and validity, and therefore may need to be eliminated or replaced with a better source. (I will invite the other editor here for feedback.) Location (talk) 17:23, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

It is valid to tag any book by Trafford or iUniverse with the tag, but the book may nonetheless be reliable, depending on the reputation of the author in that particular subject. In many sci-fi related fields, some experts self-publish. The same is true of many fields of popular culture and local history. This particular title is advertised as containing interviews with key figures in the series, which may be usable, and the authors own critical opinions, whose value depends on his reputation. That's something I cannot judge in this subject area. DGG ( talk ) 17:37, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

I removed the tag as it seemed to me like a cleanup tag (like {{dead link}} or {{refimprove}}) with no stated aim—it wasn't actually challenging any information as dubious or claiming the source was unreliable, in which case I'd have left it up and started discussion. To me it's just stating up front what the link to Trafford Publishing already does, that the book is an example of vanity publishing rather than having been printed by a more academic house. I think tagging these things without actually challenging them seems to say "this is wrong but not in any actionable or specific way", which is a route I'm not sure actually achieves anything. I'd be happy to work on finding a replacement source if the one in question is considered unreliable, I'm just not convinced of the merit of what seems at first blush to be an unactionable cleanup tag. GRAPPLE X 17:46, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

You are correct that I have no reason to challenge any particular piece of information, and in retrospect it does seem as though this particular author knows what he is talking about. I do think accepting SPSs can be problematic for many articles, though (i.e. see below). Location (talk) 17:55, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

[edit conflict]Thanks for the reply. Kessenich does claim to be "an award-winning reporter and author", so I think that would give him some credibility. In the case of many conspiracy writers, they have a reputation for being experts in various subject matter by other conspiracy writers so I'm wondering how that would be addressed. Location (talk) 17:50, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

• The tag is ok, but comment in Talk that you're researching the author, and leave a hidden comment by the tag in the article to See Talk. It is worthwhile to investigate Hanson's and Kessenich's cv and reputation to determine reliability, as discussed in WP:RS. Have they authored other works? Articles in industry magazines? (sci-fi zines?) Works been reviewed in other RS (Kirkus reviews, NYT review of books, etc.)? Cited as authoritative by anyone (Google Scholar, etc.)?
• I've done this exercise for two sources while editing Comparison of Internet Relay Chat clients (search for "rationale"), discussed, and written rationales for their restricted use: Wikipedia:WikiProject_IRC/Sources. Then, if the author is arguably reliable, I'd remove the tag, and replace with a "rationale" link to a page under the appropriate Wikiproject. --Lexein (talk) 18:00, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

• Here's some info about Kessenich link. While he is self-publishes, it seems that he has an editorial background and has experience in publishing news.--Gen. Quon (Talk) 00:32, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• Also, I've found some legit newspaper articles he wrote here and here, among others (he's wrote quite a few). So he is a published writer, and not just boasting on his book.--Gen. Quon (Talk) 00:44, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Sheldon Brown's personal website for bicycle related topics

I am wondering how extensively relying on Sheldon Brown's original research and self published source for various bicycle related articles, such as Bicycle_wheel. Would his website's contents be reliable source or should we only use it very sparingly? Cantaloupe2 (talk) 00:56, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Sheldon Brown's web site is well recognized as an excellent resource. Longer or more specific things should probably be attributed to him, but unless there's some sort of controversy on a specific point it's probably fine to use as is. a13ean (talk) 02:16, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

I would not use it to source facts on anything but the figure himslef. Not for making statements or claims on unrelated issues and subjects. While he may be an expert, this site is self published and has no editorial oversite...its a homepage.--Amadscientist (talk) 07:54, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

In what situation would it be appropriate to use him? Simple facts? What about his opinions which is just that? Cantaloupe2 (talk) 23:39, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

On his own biography, but not when referencing facts on aluminum framing and parts etc. You would need something more reliably published. His own webpage may not be used to reference facts that are available from the other published sources.--Amadscientist (talk) 01:27, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

I believe the relevant passage from wp:rs is "Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic". Even Lennard Zinn, Technical Editor for VeloNews, cites Sheldon Brown repeatedly. -AndrewDressel (talk) 03:35, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources: "Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer; see WP:BLP#Reliable sources." and : "Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field", Simply put, if the Homepage information can be shown or demonstrated to have already been published it may be acceptable if consensus agress, however if it is already published in a third party, reliable source than one should really use that and not the personal webpage of the expert. This is generaly meant for self published papers and journals not a "build your own" homepage. Care should always be used with references to make them as strong as possible and the Sheldon Brown homepage is not that. As I said, best used for citing content about himself.--Amadscientist (talk) 03:50, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, Amad, you're not parsing that guideline correctly. It doesn't mean that only the self-published stuff that has been published elsewhere is reliable. It means that since Brown has been repeatedly published on the subject of bicycles, enough to be considered an acknowledged expert, then even his self-published stuff on that subject can be considered reliable. --GRuban (talk) 20:41, 26 December 20:12 (UTC)

But where was any of his work published in reliable secondary sources on the subject? Commentary of a sentence or so in obituaries and columns do not count. I believe they mean authors who's work have been published in secondary sources, i.e. something he created that is relevant to the topic cited in a textbook or engineering journal. Cantaloupe2 (talk) 22:30, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Our article says: "Brown was a contributing writer for Bike World magazine (USA) in the late 1970s and for Bicycling magazine (USA) in the early 1980s, then for the trade magazine American Bicyclist and Motorcyclist from approximately 1988 through 1992. For several years until shortly before his death, he wrote the "Mechanical Advantage" column for Adventure Cyclist, the magazine of the Adventure Cycling Association.". --GRuban (talk) 22:43, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Sheldon Brown's website is very far from authoritative on the subject of web design, even though Sheldon did (at least at one time) offer his services in that field too. The difference is that reputable editors considered his bike-related writing reliable, but no-one ever (AFAIK) said that about his web design. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:54, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Of course Sheldon's site is RS for maintenance topics. He's the very epitome of a respected expert source within that field. Is there any instance (with cites, please) where we would begin to suspect the contrary?

For wheels specifically, I'd see Jobst Brandt as more detailed than Sheldon, but I don't know of any conflict between either of them, or other credible sources (and there's a whole load of hokum still talked about wheels). Andy Dingley (talk) 22:52, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Well lets see, can someone point out if the lack of dispute constitutes a personal webpage credible reference for WP purposes? What should we do with Brown's opinion pieces? Cantaloupe2 (talk) 00:35, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

The sainted Sheldon is considered a peerless source by cyclists the world over. He was honoured by the Cyclists' Touring Club for his exceptional work (I have a scan of the certificate, which I was responsible for sending to him). Nobody knew more about the subtle art of wrenching. If you remove the cites I am afraid I will have to kill you. Guy (Help!) 23:06, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

It sounds like you're a few steps step closer to him than the public and your affiliation maybe WP:COI. "sainted"? come on. I also don't appreciate your threatening comment suggesting the action you will take if editors were to make edits you don't approve.Cantaloupe2 (talk) 00:30, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that that's sarcasm... a13ean (talk) 03:05, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm guessing that if that isn't struck out it is a death threat. period. Reporting.--Amadscientist (talk) 03:38, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm not buying into the thought that because Sheldon is published elsewhere that his personal selfbuilt homepage is acceptable as RS for facts on bike parts. We still require references to be reliably published....and this aint it.--Amadscientist (talk) 02:18, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

That's probably because you don't know the topic very well, I'm guessing. Google "AASHTA" (example: [7]). As Always, Sheldon has The Answer. I honestly cannot think of a more widely cited source online for bike maintenance, and I speak as a long-term denizen of the Usenet cycling groups. His chain cleaning technique is known as the Sheldon Shake. And no, I am not close to the subject any more than any other cyclist who has used his website is close to the subject. I trusted Sheldon's advice and appreciated the amount of work he'd put into building his site, that's all. Guy (Help!) 15:21, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Sorry you feel that way, Amad, but it's not a "thought", it's how Wikipedia:Reliable sources works. --GRuban (talk) 17:31, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

So, you've interacted him and you're not looking at him from an impartial POV. Recognition in message boards does not count. It is all anecdotal. I think insertion of your personal trust him is inappropriate. So, what reliably published secondary source refers to it as "Sheldon Shake" ? You're closer to the subject than someone who has never had any interaction with him Cantaloupe2 (talk) 00:07, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I, like many, many other cyclists rely on Sheldon's site for information. I emailed him easily three times over a five year period and I never met him. I am no more connected with him than I am connected with the Oxford English Dictionary by virtue of having used the book as a reference. A small number of people seem to be determined to find reasons not to use Sheldon's site as a source, which is just sad. How many bicycle mechanics have you heard of who got an obituary in The Times? Also Obit in Wired - "Sheldon Brown, Web’s Cycling Guru, Dies" - "Brown’s decidedly non-fancy website was a vital resource for cyclists, rich with hints on how to break in a Brooks leather saddle, technical explanations of the workings of 60 year-old internal hubs, and instructions on how to build a tandem from two old steel bike frames. Brown even lauded Shimano’s much maligned Biopace chain rings (a non-round chain ring once made by Shimano)" - there you have a reliable independent secondary source stating that Sheldon's site is considered authoritative. Chris Juden, the technical guru of the CTC, also references his site from time to time, and I have never seen any reliable source dispute the validity and value of Sheldon's information.

I have been asked if his site is endorsed by people like Halfords. That's like asking if Walgreens endorse the FDA as a source. Halfords are commonly known as "halfwits" or "halfrauds" among the cycling community, we are distinctly ambivalent about them. I don't know any cyclist who's ambivalent about Sheldon. Someone even made up frame stickers with "Sheldon Brown is my copilot". And no, the certificate awarded to Sheldon by the CTC does not count as a self-published source any more than any other award bestowed on anybody. Now, you're free to continue arguing the toss about this but the plain fact is that Sheldon is considered a reliable source. Picking a cycling forum at random, a search for Sheldon Brown turns up many hits. This is not even remotely contentious. It's not like Ayn Rand or Gore Vidal or someone, whose opinions are considered controversial, even Jobst Brandt has people who pick fights with him, Sheldon's site was and remains the fountain source of wisdom for many things. Guy (Help!) 10:54, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I really don't care how many times you have contacted the gentleman. His self published homepage is not a RS for citing facts, but only for citing his opinion. Kill me. --Amadscientist (talk) 11:49, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I realise you're losing the will to live, but please can you explain more clearly why you do not think it appropriate to follow WP:SPS, "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications"? Do you not believe that Sheldon Brown was an established expert on bicycles? Or do you think WP:SPS is wrong and that self-published expert sources cannot be used for matters falling within the expertise of the expert? NebY (talk) 13:27, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

As a neutral observer here... we seem to have two related, but separate issues: First we must reach a consensus on whether Sheldon Brown is considered an expert on bicycles... I don't know enough about the topic to have an opinion on this, but... if he is not, then his website would not be reliable; if he is, then his self published source can be considered reliable.

Second, (assuming he is considered an expert) we need to determine whether other experts disagree with what Sheldon Brown says about bicycles ... if so, then the information taken from Mr. Brown's website should be phrased as being his opinion (ie attributed to him), and contrasted with the opinions of the other experts. If not, then we can accept what he says at face value and paraphrase it as being unattributed fact. Blueboar (talk) 15:04, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Blueboar, that's a clear summary and a roadmap for resolving this, in one brief post.

When it comes to assessing Brown's status as an expert, we are fortunate that he is dead. Eulogies abounded. This one for Adventure Cycling was written a few days later, so it talks of those obituaries and other reactions. It also tells us how he moved from having a high reputation in the comparatively small world of print journals about cycling published in the US to worldwide recognition, such that a web search for 'Sheldon Brown guru' brings up a heart-warming and inspiring chorus of praise. Sift it and you will find not just the blogosphere, but general newspapers and magazines in the US and the UK, cycling advocacy groups, companies that make money out of teaching cycle maintenance but recommend his free expertise anyway, and a busy world of online forums still referencing him. We're lucky none of those have latched onto this discussion yet.

Yes, we still have to be discriminating. Parts of his writing are minor facts and expert knowledge, parts are opinions and advocacy based on expertise. So long as we can agree that there is much of the former and have enough of an acquaintance with the subject to recognise the latter, we should be able to return to the articles and proceed in relative harmony. NebY (talk) 17:44, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Blueboar, that is precisely the point. Is Sheldon Brown considered an authority? Yes. We have reliable independent sources that identify him as such. Do other experts disagree with what he says? No, they don't. In fact other experts typically cite his website. Both these points are already addressed above, so it's not so much a roadmap for resolution as a clear message to Amadscientist to drop the stick and back away from the deceased equine. Guy (Help!) 09:15, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Australian head of state dispute.

Source: Australian head of state dispute - a well-sourced Wikipedia article.

Article: Head of state

Content:

There is an ongoing debate in Australia and in Canada as to which officeholder—the monarch or the local viceregal representative—actually is the head of state.

Discussion: As the wikilink to the Australian head of state dispute article is provided, is there a requirement to also provide the many reliable sources in that article when referencing it in another article? An editor is removing this material, saying,:

1. There is no such dispute
2. not supported by attributed source
3. not RS

I see this as vandalism, given that the dispute exists and the statement is reliably sourced, albeit at one remove. --Pete (talk) 07:18, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

I'd suggest that you add a direct citation to support the material, which appears to be what Mediatech492 (talk · contribs) is asking for here. Wikipedia articles can't be used as sources for other articles. Nick-D (talk) 08:20, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Mmmm, could you provide the wikipolicy for this exact situation? It's a simple matter of existence of something. I look at Tide and I see several mentions of Gravity, none of them sourced. We don't need to - Gravity is well sourced. If Mediatech492 (talk · contribs) says "there is no such dispute", when the wikilink demonstrates otherwise, I get the impression he hasn't clicked on the link, which is why I call "vandal". --Pete (talk) 09:37, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

We cannot use Wikipedia articles as sources for other articles. If there is a dispute over who was head of state of Australia or Canada, then it should be simple to use a source from that article to source the claim made in other articles. The specific policy is WP:RS. TFD (talk) 09:42, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Of course. Which section, precisely? --Pete (talk) 14:53, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

In agreement with TFD. GoodDay (talk) 17:42, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Skyring/Pete, please don't falsely state an agreement was reached here, as you did in your restoration edit & edit summary at Head of state. GoodDay (talk) 15:08, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

I raised the subject here. Two editors suggested I add a source to the para. You concurred with TFD's advice. I complied with the advice tendered as per my request. Cheers. --Pete (talk) 20:48, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Again, a Wikipedia article can not be used as a source. GoodDay (talk) 21:07, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

You do not appear to be using the Wikipedia article as a "source" so the use of wikilinking to extant articles is proper, and is not a violation of WP:RS. [8] National Geographic is RS for QE II as "chief odf state". As is the CIA world factbook [9] . in fact, every source I found says QE II usChief of State of Australia. [10] Encyclopedia of World Consitutions states succinctly The queen or the king, acting through the representative the governor-general, is the Australian head of state. BTW, I noited the "Duke of Normandy" excursion on the article talk page -- the custom for many hundreds of years is that the toast is to the most closely related title to the place where the toast is made. On the Isle of Man, the customary toast, indeed, is to "The Lord of Mann, Queen Elizabeth II". If no name is given, then the toast is just to "The Lord of Mann." Ditto in Lancaster (explained to me in depth there, as a matter of fact) and in the Channel Islands (told to me by a Jersey resident). This does not make the local title "higher", nor does it remove the title "Queen" where the name is given, it simply states that the monarch has a peculaiar and direct connection to that place. Pre-WW II, if one were in India, one might toast the "Emperor of India, King George VI", because that was the closest direct title he had in India. In London, one would not toast "The Emperor" because that was not his closest title to the place where the toast was given. Simple explanation to the weird discourse there. Collect (talk) 21:11, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Which version should stand? GoodDay (talk) 21:20, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Actually, there is a debate over whether the Queen or GG is Australia's head of state; the Queen technically holds the job, but the GG has always enacted essentially all of its functions and the Queen has (apparently) made it very clear that she'd only over-ride their actions in an extreme situation (for instance, in 1975 she chose to not act when the GG sacked the government on dubious grounds). As such, there's a long running debate among Australian political scientists and the like over who should actually be considered the head of state, regardless of what's specified in the Constitution. Nick-D (talk) 00:35, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Officially - HRH QE II is "head of state" for Australia - and by her own decision she assigns the functions of "head of state" to the GG - but that does not mean that she is not "head of state" as a "defined office". "Plenipotentiary" is a neat word. Collect (talk) 00:45, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

But which is correct at Head of state? Skyring's version or the version pushed by myself & others? We need more participation there. GoodDay (talk) 00:50, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

The existence of the dispute is admirably sourced. Perhaps discussion as to the dispute, rather than the sources, could be taken to the article talk page? --Pete (talk) 01:59, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

The discussion here seems to establish that it is reasonable to identify the Head of State of Australia as Queen Elizabeth II, but that there is reasonable grounds to also mention the ongoing argument on the topic and to include a link to the Australian head of state dispute article. That would be giving both sides of the argument reasonable coverage wouldn't it? Djapa Owen (talk) 13:11, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Per the sources Collect cites, Elizabeth II is the head of state as far as Wikipedia is concerned. Reliable sources seem to exist that say there is a dispute about this (the sources are here: Australian head of state dispute), it should then be assessed what's the relative weight of these "dispute" sources to determine the weight given to the dispute. If the dispute sources are marginal in the grand scheme of things, the queen should be mentioned as head of state with at most a tiny mention in the article body that links to the dispute page. --Dailycare (talk) 21:59, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Rasul Jafarian (Also Rasool, or Rasoul)

This is what I find as his short bio in an independent history related website:

Rasool Jafarian studied at the Hozeh Elmiyeh Qum[Islamic Cleric School] where he also received his PhD in 2005 in Islamic History. He is currently Director of the History Department of the Pazhooheshgahe Hozeh va Daneshgah institute in Qum and manager of the History of Iran and Islam Library in Qum. His research interests include the Shi'i world, the Safavid era and contemporary Iran. He has published extensively, including the following books: Tarikh Tashayoh Dar Iran (1997); Safaviyeh Dar Arseye Din, Siasat Va Farhang (2000); Maghalat Tarikh (13 volumes) (1997-2006).

When looking on Google Scholar, even though I do not find any papers published by him in English (perhaps because he does not know the language), I am able to see academic publications that cite his works: 1. (PhD thesis Michigan University: search for "jafarian") 2.(journal paper: click on "Download This Paper" ) 3. (journal paper: requires subscription, but his name appears in Google Scholar link provided earlier).

My question is whether I can refer to him as a scholar in matters related to Islamic/Iranian history, even though I know he is definitely a believer and for examples uses honorifics for religious figures.--User 99 119 (talk) 13:49, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Seems fine. The religious views of scholars should not affect the reliablity of their facts in academic writing. TFD (talk) 18:39, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

ancestry24.com

Hi! I'm wondering whether this page[11] (or, more specifically, this one[12]) meets reliable sources criteria. It is used in a BLP (Charlene, Princess of Monaco#Ancestry) and I don't think it qualifies as reliable (not to mention the fact that the content it supports is trivial). Surtsicna (talk) 17:48, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

We actually have a stub article on it: Ancestry24. I can't find many other sources relying on it. It seems to be mostly the project of one person, Heather MacAlister,[13]. Now it has gotten a collaboration and favorable reports from The Witness (South African newspaper), [14], and MacAlister seems to have been a consultant for a genealogy TV program,[15] but unless we find more than that, I don't think it quite makes the bar for a BLP. Especially, as you write, since the content being supported is trivial - a family tree, when only the last person in the tree is notable. --GRuban (talk) 18:19, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

source at White privilege

There is a source being used at this article that appears contentious. It is published in what is, to all appearances, a peer-reviewed journal, though the article has a distinctly personal slant. It was initially tagged as self-published, though it is clearly not. I suppose the question is along the lines of, does the personal tone disqualify it as RS, or does the peer review process qualify it as such?

discussion is here

-- UseTheCommandLine (talk) 22:55, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

It's hardly unusual for academic journals (of which this is clearly one) to publish what are, in effect, opinion articles written by experts in which they argue for their viewpoint on a topic. This article is explicitly presented as being an argument by the author (the first sentence of the abstract reads "This article represents my attempt to turn the gaze and demonstrate how Indigenous Studies is controlled in some Australian universities in ways that witness Indigenous peoples being further marginalised, denigrated and exploited."), and should be treated as such rather than as a work of disinterested scholarship. As such, it's a reliable source for material on the author's opinions but probably not much else. The author appears to be well qualified to comment on the topic and her views may warrant inclusion in the article, but they should be presented carefully. Nick-D (talk) 23:53, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Film Essay On The “Bullet Time” Scene In “The Matrix”

Would anyone consider this reliable?

http://scis.nova.edu/~rbuckley/Film%20Essay.pdf

It's been published under http://scis.nova.edu/ which is a well-known university, but I'm not sure if an essay in the university archive works. It's old, and I can find no way to access this from the root link of the university now. So I'm not sure if it's cited or peer-reviewed or anything of that. Can it be considered scholarly monograph? I wanna know if it's reliable. I only want to use one sentence in "The Matrix (film}" article:

"Linear interpolation was used to fill in any gaps of the still images to produce a fluent dynamic motion."

Any suggestion on how to archive the pdf , BTW?

Another source is http://www.sbc.ac.in/voice/bullet.htm

I'm using it for the same article. What I want to use is:

"To cope up with the problem of camera rigs, these stills are scanned and enhanced by computers to get a real time view of the scene. The computer generated "lead in" and "lead out" slides are filled in between frames in sequence to get an illusion of orbiting the scene. This method of enhancing the bullet time is called interpolation." Anthonydraco (talk) 10:45, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• It seems to me both sources are reliable, the first is a book written by an academic and second source has the editorial board.As I understand the policy, you can cite both to the content.Justice007 (talk) 21:40, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I'll use them then. :D Anthonydraco (talk) 00:44, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

the first source is totally unreliable

it's a term paper in a university class and nothing more. That it is deposited in the university archive means nothing whatever; that is not a standard of either adequate peer review, or any other discrimination or statement of quality. How this can be called a book I do not know--if it were a book by a member of the faculty we'd accept it, but we do not accept student term papers. The second item is a magazine article in an Indian film magazine--I do not know the magazines quality, but it appears to be responsibly edited, so it would do. DGG ( talk ) 03

59, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Dog-gonnit.com

Could you tell me if you feel [16] would be considered as a reliable source, please? It is used in Tamaskan dog which I recently nominated for deletion. I know most of the other refs used are not WP:RS as they are facebook, forums etc but I wanted to check before I make further comment about the article as I don't want to make myself look even more like the inexperienced idiot I most undoubtedly am! SagaciousPhil - Chat 15:48, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

WP:SPS is a start. The site authored by "3dog" is clearly a self published source. The layout shows its an obvious key word stuffed SEO spam site. Cantaloupe2 (talk) 02:35, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Savage Love

The "Savage Love" article about Dan Savage's advice column has been expanded recently with material based entirely on Savage's writings. I think it is proper to require at least one WP:SECONDARY source per section so that minor points are not highlighted as major. There is some edit warring there—new eyes are indicated. Binksternet (talk) 21:42, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Theses

Hi there, I want to write an article on a Mexican religious group called El Buen Pastor(The Good Shepherd). However, most sources only mention this group in the context of it's "parent" church La Luz del Mundo, from which El Buen Pastor broke off in 1942. I have found two sources which provide value information on the group, but they are both theses. The first is a dissertation by historian Jason Dormady, "Not just a better Mexico" : intentional religious community and the Mexican state, 1940-1964.[17] Dormady later wrote a book titled Primitive Revolution : restorationist religion and the idea of the Mexican Revolution, 1940-1968[18] which closely resembles his thesis, but omits this information, perhaps because it was irrelevant (nonetheless valuable). The other is a tesis de licenciatura (bachelor's thesis) titled Catolicismo y evangelio al este del estado de Puebla[19] by Sergio Luis Contreras. This thesis provides excerpts from El Buen Pastor's official history, and one of the thesis adviser's Elio Masferrer Kan is (in my opinion) an authority in the field. The director Carlos Garma Navarro is also (in my opinion) an expert in the field. Dormady uses La Luz del Mundo and independent sources to describe the schism that took place in 1942, while Contreras uses El Buen Pastor and independent sources. Using both Dormady and Contreras would ensure a high level of neutrality on such a sensitive topic.

My question is therefore: can I use these two sources in the article I want to create? I believe El Buen Pastor church meets minimum notability requirements. Ajaxfiore (talk) 17:18, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

If the only sources you can find are a Bachelor's thesis and a dissertation, I would be a bit hesitant to go forward. In the La Luz del Mundo there's a section on the 1942 schism already. Do you think you would have a lot of material to add that couldn't fit within the parent article? TheBlueCanoe 03:26, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

We have in the past usually accepted doctoral theses. I would be reluctant personally to accept those at a lower level, but we have sometimes done so,especially Master's theses for topics that tend not to be covered elsewhere, such as local history. A bachelor's thesis would depend on the reputation of the school and the advisor. From the information you provide, I'd consider both sources acceptable for the purposes you suggest, DGG ( talk ) 03:39, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Since I couldn't find better sources I decided to inquire about this. I was planning to write about El Buen Pastor's beliefs and practices, but perhaps it is too soon to write an article for this. I guess I'll try to add relevant information from other sources to the parent article. Thank you both for your assistance. Ajaxfiore (talk) 17:18, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Oops! I just noticed Dormady does include some details in his book, I'll try to add material from there into the La Luz del Mundo article. Ajaxfiore (talk) 02:48, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

WWWJDIC?

The article Kuroneko currently cites Jim Breen's dictionary[20] as a source for the meaning of a phrase in the Japanese title. Reliable sources don't translate the title (the English title is a shortening of the Japanese title Yabu no naka no kuroneko), but WP:NCFILM says we should provide a translation anyway. The title has two meanings in Japanese, a literal one, and a figurative one that is overwhelmingly more common, but that is not the issue here.

It was mentioned that WWWJDIC might be WP:USERG, but this seems like a faulty argument to me. Jim Breen is a recognized expert in Japanese language studies, and his dictionary is one of the most widely-used J-E dictionaries. His website is also his official homepage as a Research Fellow of Monash University. The dictionary also claims to be copyright the "Electronic Dictionary Research and Development Group".

What does everyone else think about this?

elvenscout742 (talk) 05:15, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Clarification on this project: The WWWJDIC dictionary is based on the underlying jmdict dictionary. This consists of entries submitted by users as well as entries made by the above-mentioned JW Breen. Entries are currently reviewed by a "team" of editors including JW Breen. None of the current reviewers are native speakers of Japanese. The dictionary has been in creation since 1990. Current entries supposedly are reviewed and require references, but many of the older entries were added unreviewed/unreferenced. JoshuSasori (talk) 05:35, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Further clarification: I went to WWWJDIC as my source for this because WP:NONENG says that English-language sources are preferred to non-English language ones, and because JoshuSasori has indicated elsewhere that he doesn't speak Japanese. The same information can be found easily in Kōjien or Daijisen, but a good J-E dictionary seemed better. elvenscout742 (talk) 05:59, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Elvenscout742 you are hilarious. I've never indicated that I do or do not speak Japanese, but inspection of the edit histories of Kaneto Shindo and Yasujiro Ozu should clue you up. JoshuSasori (talk) 06:10, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Your Japanese ability is entirely beside the point, but you indicated that you don't understand Hepburn romanization or Japanese long-vowels when you stated that you had "NO IDEA"[21] where the idea of spelling Japanese people's names with macrons came from. Anyway, whether it is you or some other reader, some Wikipedians don't understand Japanese, and so English-language sources are generally preferable to Japanese ones. Although maybe not when providing etymologies of words. elvenscout742 (talk) 06:24, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Calling WWWJDIC WP:USERG is, quite frankly, ridiculous. The operating project, EDRDG, is run by Monash University, a reputable Australian university, and primary author/maintainer Jim Breen is not only notable enough to have his own WP page, he's a Senior Research Fellow at Monash's Japanese Studies Centre and his scholarly work (incl. much about WWWJDIC) has been published extensively in reliable sources. The dictionary and its predecessors JDIC and EDICT have been actively worked on since 1991. EDICT was a primary source for the Unicode Consortium's Unihan Database, and WWWJDIC is described as "reliable and close to comprehensive" by sources like the Japan Times.

All that said, sources like Kōjien are still a step above WWWJDIC in authoritativeness, but for anything even vaguely modern or slangy WWWJDIC's quite often as good as it gets. Jpatokal (talk) 10:55, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Calling WWWJDIC WP:USERG is, quite frankly, ridiculous. - not ridiculous, no. The Jmdict dictionary (used to be EDICT) is generated from content submitted by users, so in the normal English sense it is "user generated content". Whether to apply WP:USERG is the discussion we should have here. EDICT was a primary source for the Unicode Consortium's Unihan Database - probably Kanjidic, not EDICT. reliable and close to comprehensible - LOL, I think you meant "comprehensive". Anyway I am sure you mean well, but Wikipedia may be reliable and it is certainly close to comprehensive, but Wikipedia isn't a "reliable source" by Wikipedia's own standards. Do you want WWWJDIC to be able to be used as a reliable source for Wikipedia articles? That is the problem. If I submit an entry to WWWJDIC tomorrow then it will change what it says for a particular entry next week. Thus I believe the cautions of WP:USERG apply. JoshuSasori (talk) 11:54, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

No, it's not comparable to Wikipedia. Yes, WWWJDIC takes contributions from the public, but they don't just show up automatically, there's a professional editorial process for approving any changes. See [22]: "Incoming entries are all checked", and that's not WP-style random peer review, but actual editorial review.

Also, your point about changeability is a red herring: any page on the Web can be changed at any time without notice, and that's what tools like WebCite are for. Jpatokal (talk) 23:04, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

The WWWJDIC can be considered a user-generated site. It states plainly: Users of WWWJDIC are welcome to submit amendments to the dictionary files, and also to submit new entries. I have submitted new words & definitions, and I have submitted additional definitions or pronunciations to existing words or kanji. That said, the provider is supposed to add a reference that can verify the new word/definition, and new definitions are annotated if they have not been confirmed by Jim Breen (or his staff, I suppose). So, user generated, but also based on established dictionaries, and also I believe quite respected among Japanophiles. Concur with User:Jpatokal. Boneyard90 (talk) 12:03, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

OK, but the review/reference/multiple editor system is a recent improvement. The bulk of entries were submitted before any review/reference/etc. system was put into place. There are errors being discovered in old entries all the time. I think caution should be exercised. JoshuSasori (talk) 12:36, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Whether a source is reliable or not is not the same as whether it's correct or not. Jpatokal (talk) 23:04, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Also, note that EDRDG consider a Wikipedia page to be a valid reference for dictionary entries. JoshuSasori (talk) 19:51, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Are you referring to [23]? The only recommended references are various dictionaries, all they do is state that you can also "include" a WP article. Jpatokal (talk) 23:04, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

It also might be pointed out that the WWWJDIC-definition that JoshuSasori was continues to challenge was is yabu no naka (don't know how to link WWWJDIC entry but [24] is a carbon-copy), which virtually matches that of Kōjien and Daijisen. elvenscout742 (talk) 01:15, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Is this about dictionaries for translations to English from Japanese (and vice–versa), or is this about Japanese dictionaries of Japanese definitions of Japanese words? Confusion? Kōjien would be the best for the later. Kenkyūsha's would be the best for the former—that is again, for translations to English from Japanese. IMHO

WWWJDIC has to be used in context, evaluated for the specific WP statement it is put forward as a reliable source for and that specific part of WWWJDIC evaluated for reliability. WWWJDIC has itself many sources, and cannot be evaluated as one lump, as reliable or unreliable. Confusion? For one example for Buddhist words, WWWJDIC, set to its Buddhist dictionary setting, sources its entries directly from another source, the reliable, scholarly Digital Dictionary of Buddhism (DDB), which needs to be widely, often and well used as a source, in addition, when words have both superficial plain language meanings, and notable Buddhist more subtle, philosophical, meanings. ——--macropneuma 02:19, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

It's about WWWJDIC. The precise issue in the article is not under question here (it was resolved when I found a report on a lecture by a notable researcher at Hosei University that made the exact point I was making). Of course Kōjien is more reliable than WWWJIC in general, but when they include the same information, WP:NONENG says we should use an English source. Most J-E dictionaries do not give straight definitions of Japanese words/phrases, but rather list some possible translations. Being able to cite an English-language online source that gives a straight definition would be nice. Therefore, we are trying to establish (and hopefully set a precedent as to) whether WWWJDIC can be used as a source for Wikipedia in general. elvenscout742 (talk) 03:51, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Only sometimes, due to its mix of its own sources, reliable and unreliable—depending on the context of the statement it is put forward as a source for and on the context of the source WWWJDIC has itself used. Not in general as a blanket reliable source. ——--macropneuma 04:48, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

But if entries, no matter where they are sourced, are reviewed by a panel of experts before being put online, mightn't that put WWWJDIC over the line into "reliable"? elvenscout742 (talk) 05:01, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Not all of the entries are reviewed by the panel. In the past i've put in a few test additional translation entries which changed the emphasis of a translation (then i removed them) and seen translations by other people under entries for words which i've done scholarly study of in my specialised, study field: 自然農法, which are not the best translations by any means—also obvious by reference to Kenkyūsha's and so on without even my special scholarly studies—and must not be used as reliable sources. It's a pity, and i think great Jim Breen will better the system to become much more robust in reliability, soon, or perhaps already has—since it's been a year or two ago for me.

I've used it as an ancillary source (as a second ref) after the first most reliable source (ref), eg. Kenkyūsha's. It is better to go to beyond WWWJDIC to its sources and reference those instead, eg. Digital Dictionary of Buddhism and numerous others.

For EDICT (Jpn–Eng General) and the default setting of: "Special Text–glossing", which automatically and conveniently incorporates a decision tree choice of various DICTs, depending on your input text—including the often helpful ENAMDICT (person's names)—they are not blanket reliable in my 10+ years of experience using it and IMHO. For these, it is better to dig deeper by repeating the search.

First the most general search you want.

Then, if that was a composite "Special Text–glossing" or "Expanded Text–glossing" setting, then break up your text into sections according to the different dictionaries it has used to output the result.

Sequentially set it to each one of those dictionaries' individual settings and input each of those sections of your text;

for each of those dictionaries' results dig deeper into the history of the translation source within WWWJDIC, often per single words/compound words, as there are not so many long phrases whole translations.

Hence, is that specific translation a reliable source or not? If it was altered by a member of the public without in turn providing sources as basis, and without in turn then getting reviewed by the panel of experts, then no. If it is in turn based on a reliable source then ok. If it is a name ENAMDICT output when it should have decided to use EDICT to translate its meaning to English, then no, and then you have to take that text back as input to specifically set EDICT translation and then repeat the history check again.

When needed i've regularly done this specific checking of this source (each word/compound word) for reliability.

It sounds too complicated when written in description here, but it is not too complicated when we get used to it.

For quick edification, such as in WP talk posts, and quick checking one's memory recall, it's fine amongst others, such as my Mac's (free) built–in, great big Oxford English Dictionary and Thesaurus linked directly to the great big Shōgakukan (Daijisen±) E<–>J, Japanese and Japanese synonyms dictionaries. For editing here in WP the Mac Shōgakukan<–>Oxford is much more convenient than WWWJDIC. If someone (hasn't a Mac and) is lazy for all this WWWJDIC reliability checking, the most convenient and best sources would be to have: Kenkyūsha's and Kōjien, big hardcopies (or computer software) on one's own desk (or desktop). I wish I had, for even more reliable sources and more convenience. I have access to them in the Uni. library. I hope that helps people in general here. ——--macropneuma 05:42, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I might add for my summation, capsule, that in my humble 10+ years of on & off experiences with WWWJDIC, the emphasis of it is on the digital dictionary technologies, not so much emphasis on the highest standards of lexicographical scholarship, as certain dictionaries we've already mentioned above, and including we all know the Oxford English. This is emphasis, and no criticism of Jim Breen or WWWJDIC at all. i perceive, of course, that emphasis to be his purpose and emphasis too; so WWWJDIC is very well fit for its purpose (to me), and i think very fit for Jim Breen's purposes; which are not the same emphases as WP's most reliable sources, purposes. Why, we needn't be (emphasising) using a less reliable source, WWWJDIC, when we can use the widely acknowledged, most reliable, best, sources, we've cited above; and put the WP sourcing emphasis on those. There's no reason not to use WWWJDIC here when fit for the purpose, just not everywhere, generally, reliable. Thanks elvenscout742 & co., for me, at least, a stimulating discussion. ——--macropneuma 11:49, 29 December 2012 (UTC) Second last sentence added for to be sure. :) ——--macropneuma 13:59, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Off topic, irrelevant, false positive and reply.

I'd like to thank Macropneuma for explaining what I was trying to say much more clearly than I did. Thank you. JoshuSasori (talk) 13:46, 29 December 2012 (UTC) Let us not believe it—Your wider than this section WP actions, including disgusting conduct in my presence, odious personal attacks of me in Japan Project a few days ago, extraordinary ingratitude ..., breaches of policy and edit warring against my edits in talk page(s) and so on, show that is a false positive written here for ulterior motives, while all these disgusting actions have been going on until this minute on other pages. Put yourself on the outside and sycophancy will not work, does nothing for me, either. Only constant good faith, competence, humility, respect, maturity and honesty suffice. ——--macropneuma 14:13, 29 December 2012 (UTC) You can start by starting contrition—admitting when you're wrong (and in those cases, clearly, everyone sees that, already—and who can be bothered. Not ur mama!).

I'm not trying to imply finishing this discussion section, in my summation, capsule, above, just my version of my summation, so far, not closing off the section, and my little, genuine, thanks, i also learned certain key things. Anyone having more to say, please, i mean to be encouraging you, in good faith (&c.) ... . ——--macropneuma 15:51, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Gentlemen, this discussion is supposed to conclude whether WWWJDIC is a Reliable Source(tm) or not. Allow me to posit the following two conclusions:

1) WWWJDIC is, generally speaking, a sufficiently reliable source and can be used as a reference for Wikipedia.

2) In case of controversy or doubt, the definitions in other Japanese dictionaries (eg. Kojien, DDB) are considered more accurate and are preferred over WWWJDIC.

In other words, we "assume good faith" for WWWJDIC, and fall back to non-English sources when in doubt. I'd like to work in some mention of preferring WWWJDIC's sources (eg. DDB) over WWWJDIC itself, but not quite sure how... Opinions? Jpatokal (talk) 10:15, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Black Anvil

Is this a good source for the new member's name? Cause many sites say they're now a four piece but don't mention the member's name, but here it does.

"Sunday October 21, 2012 we play our first ever live show as a 4 piece. It is with great honor we welcome our new comrade, Sos to the fold for this special ritual."

The only other places I can find his name is their twitter page and facebook, but those aren't allowed as sources. But I don't know if I'm allowed to put the name on the member list instead and NOT mention in the body. I have no idea. Because I must put his name there but there's barely sources, this is the only one which quotes the band.

BlastBeat4 (talk) 02:40, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

In most instances*, the band's official website would be a reliable source for the names of the members of the band (and if the band has an official twitter feed, twits on their feed about who is in the band would also generally be reliable for that particular claim). *if however, the site is making extraordinary claims (such as naming Bill Clinton as their drummer - we all know he would be the sax player), or if the band is in a contested break-up, then the official site would not be a reliable source for such a claim. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:59, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

MEDRS applies for Christian Science healing?

Does (or how does) WP:MEDRS apply to claims and reports of healing achieved through Christian Science practices?

I have raised a query [25] on the talk page concerning this.

The para in question is here (result of multiple edits over time):

Although the church and its founder make these statements, in the United States, it is the individual's choice what type of care he or she may undergo. Some members deviate from this advice, and the negative outcomes regarding children can be found in the media. Despite negative outcomes due to deviation, any total is still far below[original research?] that of some medical alternatives (prescribed drugs) which are considered some of the deadliest[52]. Defending the record of Christian Science, Robert Peel questions the claim by the medical establishment to be the exclusive authority on healing. He writes that "nosocomial illness – an umbrella term for a whole catalogue of infections acquired inside the hospital – has proved fatal to some patients who entered the hospital for treatment for a very minor ailment."[53] Peel cites a 1978 estimation that of "32 million persons admitted to American hospitals each year, about 1.5 million develop some kind of nosocomial infection, and 15,000 die of it."[54] (See also Iatrogenesis.)

The sources in question are:

• Weiss, Rick. "Prescribed Drugs' Toll Is Among Deadliest". Washington Post. Retrieved 27 December 2012.[26]
• Robert Peel, Spiritual Healing in a Scientific Age, San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1987, p. 24

I appreciate there is a difference between relating historical reports of spiritual/miraculous healing, and making statements about medical efficacy — the query is more how that line is drawn, particularly in regard to sources used, for this topic. Alexbrn (talk) 10:10, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Context Problems, Misuse of Reliable Sources, Disruptive Editing, Biased Sources in article on Christian Science

More eyes are needed to bring Common Sense [[27]] to the article on Christian Science. There is plenty in every section of the Talk Pages to indicate what is happening. In my view, 3O is not being heeded, and emerging consensus is being ignored. I am of the opinion that disruptive editing has been a recurring problem in this article. I read here that Wikipedia articles on religion draw partly from the sacred texts of that religion, as well as reliable secondary sources. I also read that the reliability of a source depends on context. I am finding that the most reliable sources have been misused in the article, and discussion in the talk pages about that seem to be disregarded. Particularly these sections of the Talk Pages to start. [[28]] [[29]] [[30]] [[31]]

If one looks into the footnotes of so-called "reliable sources", it is obvious that the those sources hold a biased opinion of Christian Science medically, theologically, scientifically. A balanced viewpoint should emerge, but a biased viewpoint should not be coming through in Wikipedia's voice, which it is in this article. Sources which accurately describe Christian Science have been objected to by several editors, and reliable sources have been used out of context. Friends whom I have sent to the Talk Pages (who are not Christian Scientists) have remarked that it isn't right what is happening with this article.

There are too many instances in the article of what I am describing to focus on specific instances. What I am hoping for is for someone to go in and take an overview of what has happened. If there is a better place for me to post this, I am open to advice from someone outside of the present discussion: LeviTee (talk) 16:29, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Ray McDermott & Ida Oberman article "Racism and Waldorf Education"

This article is available from two sources: WaldorfCritics.org and WaldorfLibrary.org

I think it would be an excellent source for use in Waldorf education, specifically in the section Waldorf education#Racism controversy. However this article and particularly this aspect of the subject is highly contentious so I want an opinion on the suitability of this source before using it in the article. In particular I am concerned that the article is not (that I can find) published by an academic publisher but is hosted on highly partisan websites (although the sites in question are on opposite sides of the pro- v. anti-Steiner controversy). The article is, however, an addendum to a paper the authors published (with other collaborators) in a more relaible source (Cite doi/10.1007.2FBF02354381 (I don't know how to make that into a link here)) and (as discussed in the article itself) this article was in an earlier draft intended to be incorporated into that main paper. The main paper itself is already cited as a source in the WP article.

To use this source I would introduce it in the context of the main study conducted by McDermott et al into the Milwaukee school and say something like:

McDermott and Oberman discuss Steiner's teachings that humans fall into different races with different places in the evolution of consciousness and different mental and spiritual abilities; cite a study showing that many followers of Steiner consider him infallible; report observing a display of racist attitudes from representatives of the international Waldorf community; express concern about the possible prevalence of racist attitudes amongst some Steiner-Waldorf teachers; and urge the Waldorf movement to tackle racist issues in Steiner's teachings.

However the authors also report that the Milwaukee school they observed (and produced their main report on) not only did not display racism but was actively confronting racism (which they also credit Waldorf educators in Black townships in South Africa with doing) and cite with approval efforts within the anthroposophy and Waldorf communities to confront and reject racism.

John Stumbles (talk) 03:05, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

A DOI can be turned into a resolvable URI by prepending http://dx.doi.org/ to the DOI, so your link would be [32] - however, this does not seem to work - so something is wrong somewhere.

I have (for my sins) been editing the Waldorf education article for a few weeks. Bear in mind the article is on probation and subject to an Arbitration Committee ruling, so care is advised when venturing into controversial areas. In my view, the two sources you mention, being from anti-Waldorf and pro-Waldorf sites, simply will not do — especially for a topic as contentious as racism.

I believe there is some peer-reviewed work by Peter Staudenmaier on the topic, which might prove more fruitful. However, in my personal view the BBC News report currently included in the article is enough on this topic, which is not a very meaty one anyway, and has become a battlefield for pro- and anti- campaigners. I think having much more on racism in this article might run a risk of being WP:UNDUE. Alexbrn (talk) 14:39, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Speech by UN Ambassodor- primary or secondary source?

Does speech by UN ambassodor of Malaysia [33] that is used as a source in article of Settler colonialism [34].Does it primary or secondary source in this contexts?Moreover it seems that http://www.un.int/malaysia/ is a personal page of the ambassador so it maybe WP:SPS also.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 14:10, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

That webpage is the webpage hosted on the UN website for the Permanent Mission of Malaysia to the UN, and the article can be found under the link for NAM Statements By Malaysia.--Ubikwit (talk) 16:42, 29 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

EA WorldView

In Talk:James H. Fetzer, an editor wants to know if http://www.enduringamerica.com/home/2012/12/20/iran-propaganda-101-mass-killing-of-children-in-connecticut.html is a reliable source for James Fetzer's views regarding the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting. Thanks! Location (talk) 16:55, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Press TV and Veterans Today RS for their contibutors

Location claims that Press TV cannot be used to establish notability for Jim Fetzers outrageously anti-semitic viewpoint that the Sandy Hook massacre can be blamed on Israel. Press TV is the main and official news agency of Iran, and Veterans Today is an american-based website that also carries Press TV stories and its contributors, but thus also carries stories approved by the government of Iran. Both have been noted by ADL and Washington Post as carrying wildly anti-semitic anti-israel propoganda. It is hard to document Fetzer if WP disallows two of his most important outlets and source of supporters with similar viewpoints. Kourosh Ziabari was deleted because it was claimed that his many contributions to both outlets were not "notable", and a similar case is being made for Mark Dankof who similarly appear on Press TV and American anti-war websites. If these writers are acting as stealth propgandists for a hostile nation-state, it impossible to document them if they are to be deleted simply because they have been ignored by mainstream pro-Israel western media, yet heavily promoted by pro-Iranian pro-Palestine outlets. Redhanker (talk) 17:08, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

FYI: I posted your concern in the thread immediately preceding this one. The issue is one of using reliable secondary sources for Fetzer's opinions versus primary source material. Location (talk) 17:14, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

[Cross posted from Talk:James H. Fetzer for clarification.] The Veterans Today source explicitly states: "Posted by Jim Fetzer" at the top. Regarding the Press TV source, it is primary source material. On this, WP:BLPPRIMARY states: "Where primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source, subject to the restrictions of this policy, no original research, and the other sourcing policies." Per the discussion at WP:RSN, let's see if http://www.enduringamerica.com/home/2012/12/20/iran-propaganda-101-mass-killing-of-children-in-connecticut.html fits the requirement of a reliable secondary source. Location (talk) 19:19, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

I have pointed out to User:Redhanker who is trying to use Gilad Atzmon's opionion on a WP:BLP that he cannot promote a non-WP:RS source as WP:RS just because it supports his view on an issue. I've certainly seen all these sources deleted instantly when others tried to use them as critics of Israel. I have been waiting for him to respond on the Richard A. Falk article on his removal of an Atzmon quote about Falkf and wondering if I was going to have to bring this here, but I can see he already is here on the same issue. CarolMooreDC 22:36, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

As well as Talk:Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting#Iran Press TV conspiracy theories. Location (talk) 22:42, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Conversion therapy

I've removed the following from Conversion therapy for sourcing concerns:

NARTH repudiates aversive techniques and stresses therapeutic efforts toward growing more fully into what it considers one's biologically appropriate gender identity.

I think these primary sources don't quite support what we're reporting in Wikipedia's voice. Can some folks please offer input? Thank you. Insomesia (talk) 13:20, 30 December 2012 (UTC)