Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

Welcome — ask about reliability of sources in context!

Before posting, check the archives and list of perennial sources for prior discussions. Context is important: supply the source, the article it is used in, and the claim it supports. Additional notes: RFCs for deprecation, blacklisting, or other classification should not be opened unless the source is widely used and has been repeatedly discussed. Consensus is assessed based on the weight of policy-based arguments. While the consensus of several editors can generally be relied upon, answers are not policy. This page is not a forum for general discussions unrelated to the reliability of sources. Start a new discussion

Is PCMag a reliable source?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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What is the reliability of PCMag?

• Option 1: Generally reliable
• Option 2: Additional considerations
• Option 3: Generally unreliable
• Option 4: Deprecate

Equalwidth (C) 05:51, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

What context you have in mind? I use PCMag as a source for articles about old hardware/software from 1980s/1990s, in that case it is a reliable source. Are there some recent issues we should be aware of? General reliability questions like this aren't much helpful. Pavlor (talk) 06:02, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

69.126.34.232 (talk) 11:34, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

What did 69.126.34.232 do? Equalwidth (C) 11:54, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Is there an actual live issue? Where are you thinking of its use and how? - David Gerard (talk) 08:44, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Invalid question: This question needs a lot more context. Like David said, historically it was a very good source for computer information. Is it still a good source? Perhaps but in what context are you proposing/objecting to it's use. Please note that we should never start the discussion of a source with the RfC style options. That should be reserved for sources that have been discussed significantly in the past. Instead, for source that normally aren't discussed here the question should be raised with a specific use example. Springee (talk) 16:56, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

• It depends on context of what specifically is being cited for what specific article content. One couldn't cite them for medical advice for example, and information in a 1991 article may have become outdated. And I'd really like a link to what prior discussion was not resolved so it needed to come to this RFC for conflict resolution. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 16:27, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
• No consensus. From the gigantic banner which appears at the top of this page -- Context is important: supply the source, the article it is used in, and the claim it supports. This is not supposed to be some kind of official council where we decide which sources are "good" and "bad". jp×g🗯️ 23:54, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The Daily Signal

Yesterday, I saw in my news feed on my Android a Washington Post article about John Clauser, specifically about a Nobel Prize winner pivoted toward climate change denial. I was not familiar with the subject, and the article remains paywalled (naturally), so I took to Wikipedia to read about the subject. As expected, there is a section about Clauser's denial with the Post's article newly added, but I also noticed a footnote adjacent to it, which points to The Daily Signal. I thought, as editors, we were not to use The Daily Signal. Have I been incorrect? The source has been removed and can be added back in if this discussion finds for its reliability. FreeMediaKid$ 20:53, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

The last discussion appears to be this one in archive 334. The general consensus of that discussion seems to be cautionary due to it's relationship to The Heritage Foundation. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:36, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

As of yet, no user has reinserted the source, but it may be because I urged them to do so only "if this discussion deems it reliable." Reading the Post's article in archive.today to bypass its paywall (an administrator may need to redact this part of my comment if it is indeed the wrong thing to post), I was able to verify the material sourced, and The Daily Signal's piece, published in August, was remotely related to Mr. Clauser's denial, which he professed in November, anyway, so there is nothing to lose from deleting the citation or gain from adding it in. I still lean toward the understanding that The Daily Signal is at best no more reliable than an average think tank publication and publishes undue content. There are better conservative-leaning sources out there. FreeMediaKid$ 01:23, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

• It always depends on context - of what specific piece is being cited for what specific WP content. See WP:RS, specifically WP:RSCONTEXT "Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Wikipedia article and is an appropriate source for that content." And remember that while WP:V is an important policy, RS is a guideline and not a policy, so a page does not necessarily follow it. RS even says it "is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though occasional exceptions may apply." Cheers Markbassett (talk) 16:49, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

  Although WP:RSCONTEXT is true it doesn't hold for all situations. For instance WP:CIRCULAR sources will never be good, and reliable self-published sources can never be used in BLPs.
  Also WP:V states verifiability means other people using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source, you would need a very good WP:IAR argument to ignore that, and if other editors disagree with your evaluation of a source a talk page consensus would be WP:LOCALCON. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:22, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

  • User:ActivelyDisinterested - for those it still depends on context -- both WP:CIRCULAR and WP:BLPSPS state when you can use them. I would think one *should* use them in such context, but suppose it might depend on specific cases. Cheers

    You've mixed up WP:SPS and WP:BLPSPS, third party self published sources can never be used in BLPs. From the policy - Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer, bolding in the original. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:35, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

There is not an official Wikipedia council that dictates what sources are always good and what sources are always bad. You have to look at the context in which a source is used, fire up the ol' noggin, and think about it. jp×g🗯️ 23:56, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

The OP contains a detailed description of the context in question. Maybe your knee-jerk reaction also requires someone to fire up the ol' noggin? 50.232.6.4 (talk) 01:43, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Whether the Daily Signal is reliable for this statement depends entirely on the journalistic merit of the specific citation being referenced; the OP gave a Washington Post article. Digging through the revision history of John Clauser we can find this, which I presume is the article in question. The claims being made here are pretty straightforward. The statement it's being used to back up, in the article, is He has concluded that clouds have a net cooling effect on the planet, and stated “there is no climate crisis". Here is what the article says:

The International Monetary Fund canceled a talk with physicist John Clauser after he said, “Climate change is not a crisis.” [...] According to the educational climate organization CO2 Coalition, where Clauser serves on the board, Pablo Moreno, director of the IMF’s Independent Evaluation Office, read the flyer for Clauser’s lecture and “immediately canceled,” or technically “postponed,” the event. [...] Moreno did not respond to The Daily Signal’s inquiry regarding concerns that Clauser’s lecture was postponed due to his views on the alleged climate crisis."

It's written by Virginia Allen, who is "a senior news producer and podcast host for The Daily Signal". There does not seem to be anything really objectionable here. What exactly is the claim -- he didn't really say that, and they're making it up? jp×g🗯️ 02:54, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Yep as it says in the header While the consensus of several editors can generally be relied upon, answers are not policy, you can offer advise or take the advise given. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:28, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

I added an Archive URL for the original Washington Post article, which should be accessible to all now. I've not checked, but I hope the article confirms what The Daily Signal wrote. Please keep in mind that if an article is hidden behind a paywall, it can usually still be accessed via an archive website, such as archive.org or webcite. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 00:42, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

GNIS regurgitators

background Project:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 357#RfC: GNIS and Project:Reliability of GNIS data

• Sprekelsville, California (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• U.S. Geological Survey Geographic Names Information System: Sprekelsville, California — "Original Citation: Occidental College. Accessed from classic.oxy.edu on 15 December 2005"
• http://classic.oxy.edu at the Wayback Machine (archived 2005-12-15)
• Stockton, Arizona (AfD discussion)

Failing the Sprekelsville test:

• https://california.hometownlocator.com/ca/el-dorado/sprekelsville.cfm

Failing the Stockton test:

• https://roadsidethoughts.com/az/stockton-xx-mohave-profile.htm — The non-existent people at an uninhabited former mine from the 1890s don't self-identify as "Stocktonians".

The subject of GNIS regurgitators has come up again at Alden, Colorado (AfD discussion). Dlthewave has mentioned these before; and hometownlocator and roadsidethoughts are two of the frequently used ones, cited as sources to — ironically — bolster or replace the known-unreliable GNIS. roadsidethoughts in particular makes it very clear that it is a GNIS regurgitator, and they all have all of the problems associated with the underlying GNIS data.

Aside: The Sprekelsville Test is quite useful in other ways. There is a Spreckels family in California associated with a lot of stuff, historically, some of which is linked from that page. But that is Spreckels, with a c. On the presumption that someone from Occidental College did say something about the Spreckels, even though that doesn't pan out when one consults the Wayback Machine's archive, the fact that they got a mis-spelling and the site of the El Dorado Limestone Mine on Shingle Mine Road by Deer Creek south-west of Shingle Springs, California into the GNIS by a wholly wrong name in 2005 should be telling us that the GNIS, which famously mangled names for EBCDIC purposes anyway, is unreliable for even names.

So we really should have something in the Reliable Sources lists that points out that the GNIS regurgitators are just as bad as using the GNIS directly — which effectively one is as it's all machine-generated from the GNIS computerized records.

Uncle G (talk) 09:33, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Agreed; in fact (as creator of the Sprekelsville PROD) I wouldn't be averse to a "generally unreliable" evaluation of GNIS, RoadsideThoughts, and HometownLocator (and the like) all around. The latter sites are SEO garbage, and I'm appalled by the number of United States geographic articles sourced only to them (see my recent PROD nominations for examples). And some of these sites appear to get data from Wikipedia, creating an Ouroboros of trivial (if not patently false) geographic misinformation. This is as much a WP:GEOLAND issue as it is a reliable sources issue, but if we can get sources declared unreliable for geographic purposes, that's a step in the right direction. WeirdNAnnoyed (talk) 01:20, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

• Delete - These aggregators are worse than the databases they draw from because the sources are unclear and there's no apparent effort to fact-check or maintain accuracy as required by WP:RS, they're simply duplicating the data along with all errors. I can't imagine a situation where an aggregator is a better source than readily-available GNIS or census records. –dlthewave ☎ 14:43, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

GNIS is really not that bad, you just have to use your head a little. Normally I wouldn't comment on a thread like this, but I happen to specifically climb mountains using GNIS quadrangles of Shingle Springs, and they're fine for all my own purposes. I agree that sources which obviously procedurally aggregate and republish GNIS data are no more accurate than GNIS itself, though. jp×g🗯️ 23:50, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

The quad maps are a USGS product which predate and were one source for GNIS. I don't think anyone has questioned the reliability of the topo quads. fiveby(zero) 02:45, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Err, Sprekelsville is on the recent quad map! Never seen this before. Did anybody ever figure out what happened here? Hmm, El Dorado Lime and Minerals Company "also known as Sprekels Quarry" fiveby(zero) 03:19, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Uncle G is there a discussion of this "Sprekelsville Test" anywhere? Not that it shouldn't have been deleted or that GNIS doesn't have problems or the aggregators are junk etc. ,but just for my own curiosity as to how this ended up in a quad map. Claus Spreckels is spelled as Sprekels often enough in newspapers to make me think it possibly wasn't a misspelling and the family might have just changed the spelling. There were works in the area before the El Dorado Limestone Company and limestone is used in the refinement of sugar beets. It's not too improbably that there once was a place called Sprekelsville and GNIS is correct, i'm just wondering how it ended up on a quad map. fiveby(zero) 04:48, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

The Mary Sue (in context), others

In current reporting of Sam Altman's sister's accusations of sexual assault against, controversy has been stirred over in Talk:Sam Altman over one particular source: Specifically this article on The Mary Sue, cited in the context of: "The lack of initial news coverage this got at the time has been more recently criticized as being motivated by the lionization of Altman in the press."

1) While accepting that The Mary Sue is a Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial, there is argument that the article is an opinion piece and cannot be used to defend the claim it was linked to (above). What is your viewpoint on this assertion?

2) In the edit, reporting of his sister's allegations was backed by two other sources before it: Slate and Times Now News. Numerous additional sources have also been suggested in talk, including VentureBeat[1], Genius (company)[2], 20 minutes (France) [3], Koran Jakarta [4], The Independent (Turkish edition) [5], The Thaiger [6], Liberty Times [7], Yahoo News (Taiwan edition) [8], and about a dozen others. What is your viewpoint on these sources being sufficient for use on a WP:BLP article?

Thanks in advance - I'll respect whatever the consensus is here. Rei (talk) 09:17, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

@ReiThat article is definitely an opinion piece. It ends with the sentence "What we need to remember is that we, together, can save ourselves, and that all-powerful “tech bros” are only as powerful as we allow them to be." The Mary Sue is already tagged as being considered opinionated by some in the list of perennial sources, but I think that by ending a piece with a call to action like that marks the transition from "opinionated article" to "opinion piece" - yet the article is reachable under the "News" header right now.

I checked The Mary Sue's section on opinion pieces, which contains a whole two articles - from 2013 and 2015. Both pieces merely have a tag at the bottom instead of marking the article as an explicit opinion piece at the top. I think, Altman aside, that The Mary Sue has a tagging problem here

Addendum: I don't question for a second that the assault is real. That's not an opinion. However, the article does contain the aforementioned call to action, accusations against the press in general regarding this case as well as scrutiny of tech bros etc.Cortador (talk) 12:33, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Reading through the somewhat long discussion at Talk:Sam Altman#Sister's tweets the issue appears to be one of DUE rather than RS. The sources maybe reliable, but that doesn't guarantee inclusion.

As an aside, and as it comes up a lot, the last article isn't by Yahoo news, it's by Mashdigi. Yahoo news is simply acting as an aggregator. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:41, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback, both of you (I'll wait a few days to see if any other comments show up). With issue #2, it seems thusfar like the consensus is "Yes to RS, but DUE needs to be resolved on talk". With issue #1, it's really two issues: 1A, whether it's an opinion piece; and 1B, whether it can be used as a citation for the text ("The lack of initial news coverage this got at the time has been more recently criticized as being motivated by the lionization of Altman in the press."). Thusfar, the view seems to be that the answer to 1A is "yes". What about 1B?

Again, thanks for the replies! People who take the time to comment on pages like this really hold the site together. -- Rei (talk) 22:13, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

I think stating that there wasn't enough news coverage initially is fine if attributed to The Mary Sue in-line. Cortador (talk) 07:52, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

• It's fine to quote an opinion piece as the opinion of its author. So, for example, if I wrote an op-ed in the Grauniad saying:

/b/ used to be good, but now it's a pile of shit.

This would not be suitable:

As of 2023, /b/ used to be good but now it's a pile of shit.^[69]

It would, however, be fine to write this:

Famous poster JPxG, writing for the Grauniad in 2023, said that /b/ 'used to be good' but has since turned into a 'pile of shit'.^[69]

Assuming, of course, that there were some reason for my opinion about posts to be noteworthy. jp×g🗯️ 23:11, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

• I see no reason why an opinion piece on from a generally reliable source cannot be used to source a factual claim, especially one that is also trivially verifiable (e.g. so-and-so has accused X of Y, and we have access to the original accusation). - GretLomborg (talk) 06:43, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

The Economic Times

Hi I'd like to get opinions on whether The Economic Times is a reliable source when used at Phoolan Devi. It is taken as India's leading financial newspaper by other newspapers such as Washington Post, Guardian, NYT, Times. It's not in the list of perennial sources and searching the RSN archives doesn't give a conclusive view. At Phoolan Devi, two citations are used three times:

• "Main witness of Behmai massacre dies, court yet to pronounce verdict in 1981 case is used to back The court case concerning the Behmai massacre began in 2012; of the twenty-three people facing charges, sixteen (including Phoolan Devi) were dead by 2020. Of the seven remaining suspects, three were on the run (including Man Singh). A verdict was expected in January 2020 and then delayed because important case documents had been lost.
• "Eye on Nishad votes, Akhilesh meets Phoolan Devi's mother" is used to partly back Mallah people were happy to have someone of their caste representing them in parliament for the first time and she was generally popular among Other Backward Classes. She visited her constituents in their villages and listened to their concerns.[32][33] and Also in 2021, tributes marking the anniversary of her death were made by Akhilesh Yadav of the Samajwadi Party, Chirag Paswan of the Lok Janshakti Party (Ram Vilas) and Tejashwi Yadav of Rashtriya Janata Dal.[33][70]

Thanks for any help. The previous discussion about this is at Talk:Phoolan_Devi#The_Economic_Times Mujinga (talk) 08:54, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

The Economic Times is owned by Times Group, which also owns the Times of India. The Times of India has a mixed reputation based on our list of perennial sources. However, that doesn't mean that all news outlets of Times Group are automatically unreliable. Reuters states that Indian news in general has tough times due to government suppression, and that freedom of the press is low in India. That said, freedom of the press doesn't determine the quality of journalism - you can have a free press that consists of nothing but tabloid rags. However, the low freedom of press combined with borderline promotional pieces like this about Modi, which The Economic Times is unreliable with regards to the Indian government. Nevertheless, they may be reliable for reporting that doesn't step on the government's toes. Cortador (talk) 10:08, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

The Economic Times is considered a reliable source. Perhaps it is worth adding a note of caution on The Times of India in regards to India related articles. Homerethegreat (talk) 11:31, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

It's not, there has been no significant discussion on it previously and the related ones that have occured don't lead to such a conclusion (2013, 2021). There is also nothing unique about The Times of India (TOI) for a note like that, there are many others of its kind with some variations here and there.

Regarding the question, it is true one musn't paint all publications under a particular owner with the same brush and instead assess them individually. That said, in this case it is very valid. Times Group (BCCL) is known for having pioneered the strategy of paid news, as in selling advertisement space in the place of articles and having hidden advertorials which masquerade as news pieces, through its flagship The Times of India, which was then quickly adopted into The Economic Times. The same goes for the pro-government orientation, these two things are actually quite related because a lot of the times the advertorials are coming from the government. The practice itself is also a big liability if the government is dissatisfied with them so you can generally expect these kinds of newspapers to loyally toe the government line regardless of whether the articles are paid for or not (forget concern for factual accuracy), to the point that their normal articles are even discernable since there are no disclosures, this is also in the context of democratic backsliding and the present government's crackdown on independent press generally.

Also, for Indian newspapers generally one can also assume that the assessment of a company's flagship newspaper (The Times of India (RSP entry), The Indian Express (RSP entry) The Hindu (RSP entry), etc) is applicable to their business newspaper (The Economic Times, The Financial Express, The Hindu Businessline, etc) as well. They are usually packaged together or even come as a supplements to the flagship newspaper, and tend to be organisationally conjoined, sometimes even sharing staff. Now, this wouldn't apply to say some publication like Bangalore Mirror which is also owned by Times Group.

As for the specific article, the information is probably accurate but for the lack of doubt, it would be preferable to replace them with better sources. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 22:41, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

References

Thanks. Any other opinions on whether these specific sentences are appropriately sourced? Mujinga (talk) 17:07, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Purely in my own selfish interest of not having to think about Phoolan Devi any longer, I'll chop out the citations to ET, which were only queried because it has the same owner as ToI. The whole time I've been working on this article it's been a challenge to get editors to comment on anything, which I guess more than anything else indicates systemic bias. I still find it hard to believe that a leading business newspaper should be judged on the policies of its sister publication, rather than specific context, but here we are. I wouldn't want this discussion to point to any real consensus on how to use Economic Times more generally, because that discussion simply hasn't been had. Mujinga (talk) 18:00, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I've went to the article and have restored some of the material with other sources, turns out there were in fact mistakes in first the ET article. For instances, the case did not begin in 2012, it began long ago, the charges were introduced against a few more suspects in 2012. And the number of people accused seems to have been wrong as well. The thing is ET is hardly a straight RS, it does not care about rigour and contains hidden advertorials, "leading" doesn't mean anything for our purposes, other than it being well known and having a wide circulation, TOI itself is "leading" and so is say the Daily Mail. Regardless of whatever reason people may have questioned it at FAC, if judged on its own merits one does see that BCCL has introduced the same practices in ET as it has with TOI which causes the same issues. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 23:53, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

BNN Breaking

While looking for information regarding the Venezuelan opposition article, I encountered this article. Having encountered this source multiple times before I decided to look into it.

BNN Breaking has been linked over 200 times on Wikipedia. The website is a product of Gurbaksh Chahal.[9] It has over 100,000 subscribers on YouTube, 140,000 followers on Facebook and on Twitter, it previously had billions of impressions per month (according to BNN). Recently, BNN Breaking got into a legal dispute with Twitter (X) and was removed from the platform. This resulted with the personal Twitter profile of Chalal receiving half of a million followers.

An October 2023 article titled "'Fake news' site publishes more false stories about San Francisco Supervisor Dean Preston" by the SFGate said that Twitter accounts linked to BNN Breaking "were banned last year for violating policies on spam and misinformation" and that three BNN articles about Dean Preston were "negative" and "each contained misleading or false information." SFGate goes on to write: "One of those stories, which was bylined by BNN Breaking founder Gurbaksh Chahal and was riddled with inaccuracies, referred to Preston as 'arguably the most attention-seeking, spineless, and downright insufferable politician the city has ever seen.' Two sentences later, Chahal boasted that BNN maintains a 'commitment to impartiality.'"

Is there more we can do to determine the reliability of BNN Breaking? Should we take a look at the articles that contain information from BNN Breaking? Or, should we just keep and eye on the BNN Breaking for now? WMrapids (talk) 22:18, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

They sound like a fake news site but if not it should be easy to find out because they say Day after day, esteemed outlets like The Washington Post, Al Jazeera, Bloomberg, CNN, The Daily Beast, and Yahoo News, turn to BNN Breaking for credible insights. [10] Softlem (talk) 22:26, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Reliability issues at the POV Venezuelan opposition could keep this page busy all month.[11]

Like the other sources used to cite the undue content: "During her speech following her victory in the 2023 Unitary Platform presidential primaries, María Corina Machado used the seven-star flag of Venezuela on stage behind her":

• https://primiciasvenezuela.com/2023/10/24/usuarios-de-las-redes-sociales-estallan-contra-maria-corina-machado-por-mostrar-bandera-de-7-estrellas/
• https://www.elinformadorve.com/24/10/2023/destacada/maria-corina-machado-aqui-todos-estamos-convocados-a-un-proceso-de-construccion/
• https://el-politico.com/actualidad/noticias-el-politico/maria-corina-machado-los-venezolanos-derrotaron-una-forma-de-hacer-politica/

... there are no About us or Contact pages upon which we can judge things like staff, editorial oversight, fact checking, and they all have the same look and feel, designed to push info via clickbait for social media like Facebook.

Perhaps these websites provide a new extension of chavista propaganda (the Venezuelan branch of "fake news"). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:25, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

While we're at it, I should also point out to one of the latest reports of the Venezuelan fact-checking coalition C-Informa: #CiberalianzaAlDescubierto: El Mazo y las redes anónimas se unen para desinformar. ("#CiberallianceUncovered: El Mazo and the anonymous networks join forces to misinform"). It dsicusses how government astrosurfing campaigns and disinformation networks, which previously targeted leaders such as Juan Guaidó or Leopoldo López, now take aim at María Corina Machado shortly before and after the opposition presidential primaries. One of their tactics is precisely impersonating reliable news outlets, and an eye should be kept out for the upcoming presidential elections next year. --NoonIcarus (talk) 14:53, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Sample, note:

• https://web.archive.org/web/20090824115648/http://www.elinformador.com.ve/quienes-somos

Versus:

• https://www.elinformadorve.com/ (no about page)

And then there's Bolivarian Army of Trolls.

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:33, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

WMrapids, the sources all look similar and may be related; don't unilaterally close off discussion (there are plenty of well-informed editors who can and will do that here if/when necessary). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:09, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

RFC: Electronic Intifada

What is the reliability of Electronic Intifada?

• Option 1: Generally reliable
• Option 2: Additional considerations
• Option 3: Generally unreliable
• Option 4: Deprecate

The last discussion was in 2018 and can be found here. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:25, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

• Option 2: The previous discussion on the Electronic Intifada (EI) was not a particularly sophisticated discussion and needs revisiting: it was not a formal RFC, and the opening statement was somewhat rambling, but one key takeaway is that EI does not appear to have generated serious concerns about its adherence to factual accuracy. Media bias fact check is not a reliable source, but is a usefully indicative resource, and it "could not find any instance where EI directly failed a fact check from major fact checking sources". The site goes on to note that only rates "Mostly Factual" as opposed to "High" in terms of its reporting "due to a lack of transparency regarding funding, as well as strongly loaded emotional wording that may be misleading – so again, pertaining to bias, not factual error. EI is distinctly biased (as all media sources are) – this is certain – and this was the principle charge laid against it in the previous discussion, but bias ≠ unreliable, per WP:BIASEDSOURCES, but merely demands attribution. In the case of EI, the direction of its bias, and its specificity to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is so obvious that it hardly bears mentioning, but option 2 allows for the formal caveating of the source and noting the attribution requirement. I would note that the first naysayer in the last discussion was the now notorious sock puppeteer User:Icewhiz wielding a Huffington Post opinion piece as the only evidence of factual issues, and, per WP:HUFFPOCON, Huffington Post contributions have themselves been deemed unreliable (in a subsequent 2020 RFC). Many of the following votes merely cite the source's bias, which again, should be addressed through attribution, but does not relate directly to reliability. There are a couple of editorial issues that are drummed up, including a piece from 2008 with a misleading quote that has since been caveated at the bottom of the piece, and another quibbled-over piece regarding a statement and its attribution dating to 2002. However, that in 2018 the best evidence of EI's unreliability that could be drummed up are some relatively isolated poorly attributed statements from 2002 and 2008 suggests to me that the evidence of factual inaccuracy is very threadbare indeed. WP:GUNREL means "generally" unreliable, not demonstrably unreliable once every decade or so. I'm not sure I've seen a bar as high as this applied to any source. To maintain the GUNREL rating for EI, a more serious discussion is required, and some significantly more substantial and damning evidence needs to be provided sustaining the charges of factual inaccuracy or manipulation, as opposed to merely lambasting it for its bias, which is utterly transparent – if only in its name alone, with which it really wears its heart on its sleeve about its leaning. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:25, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

MBFC is not a useful way of gauging source reliability. It is the opinion of one random guy, no different to the opinion of the average Wikipedia contributor. That said, I have no opinion on the reliability of this publication. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:12, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

• Option 4: Existing consensus is that the source is generally unreliable for facts, as discussed, for example, in Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_250#Electronic_Intifada_(Again). This source is not only extremely biased but also has a very poor reputation for fact-checking. There were plenty of examples brought up in previous discussions. The fact that the website is cited in existing articles, usually for opinions with attribution, has no relevance to its tendency, or lack thereof, to provide accurate and trustworthy facts. Citing these kinds of sources for matters of fact would compromise Wikipedia's reputation as a trustworthy reference. There is also strong consensus that The Electronic Intifada is a partisan source, although this is independent of its reliability. If something is worthy of publishing in Wikipedia, then there will surely be better RS options. Marokwitz (talk) 21:57, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

  @Marokwitz: If you are saying it is generally unreliable, why have you said option 4, which is deprecation - something else. To deprecate a source, you need to provide some justification, not just your impression based on old, very outdated evidence, part of which was countered in the prior discussion, and which was further discussed in my statement. You have not progressed the discussion on the detail in and way, but merely opined in it. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:28, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

  Al Mayadeen and Press TV are very similar to Electronic Intifada. In comparison, the tabloid Daily Star (UK), though not a top-tier source, is considered more reliable. These three have been deprecated due to their one-sided reporting and loose approach for fact checking. Examples I saw recently in EI include coverage of Israa Jarbis where Electronic Intifada fails to mention she has seriously injured a police officer; relying on a debunked community-noted tweet by Twitter user SyrianGirl as a source in a recent article; and reporting on helicopters shooting at Nova partygoers based on a Haaretz article, while failing to disclose the police's rebuttal of this claim that was published on the same day.

  Overall, evidence shows that the site has a non-existent approach to fact-checking and publishing formal error corrections. Publishing the truth doesn't seem to be a priority compared to advocacy of a specific narrative, thus I believe it should be deprecated to save our editors' time. Marokwitz (talk) 23:24, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

  Evidence stands taller with some actual links for verification. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:50, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

• No consensus. No statements made by the source have been given by the opener of the RfC. What are we supposed to evaluate here? jp×g🗯️ 23:07, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
• Option 3 - it publishes mostly opinion, and where that opinion is by an expert in the field it should be able to be used. But for its news reporting, it is reporting on other outlets reports. I would say, as I did in the last discussion, that when they report something it will usually be found in other sources, otherwise I place it basically on the opposite end of Arutz Sheva and would not use it as a source for facts. nableezy - 23:44, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Option 4 - A) Electronic Intifada is a partisan news site that has a recent and long history of biased partisan reporting and appears to be pursuing political goals through its newspapers.

It also appears that it seems to support armed struggle and removal of organizations deemed terrorist by Western countries from terror lists.

In August 2020, Electronic Intifada published an article by Samidoun coordinator Khaled Barakat, there they wrote “Association with the Palestinian armed resistance and its political parties is not a cause for shame or a justification for repression…boycott campaigns and popular organizing are not alternatives to armed resistance but interdependent tactics of struggle. Any meaningful defense of the Palestinian people must clearly uphold the right to resist colonialism by all means, including armed struggle – and support efforts to remove Palestinian resistance groups from lists of ‘terrorist organizations.’”

Ali Abunimah, the site’s co-founder and current executive director, stated the following regarding Zionism : “one of the worst forms of anti-Semitism [sic] in existence today” and claims that it is the “continuation in spirit” of the Holocaust. Abunimah has compared Israel to Nazi Germany [12] , he also commented the following on a Holocaust survivor (called Elie Wiesel a “moral fraud and huckster”).

Furthermore, from an article in 18 January 2023 it appears the EI supports the incorporation of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, considered terrorist organizations by US, EU... into the PLO.

"But for that storm to sweep away the old, it needs direction. So far, Palestinian discontent with their leaders has not thrown up any clear alternative strategy behind which parties and new political forces can agree to unite.

Any such strategy needs to answer several crucial questions, notably what outcome to seek and how best to get there, how to unite the main factions behind a new vision for Palestinian liberation and how to ensure that Palestinians in occupied territory can endure under different political conditions.

It will also need to find a way to incorporate Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other factions considered “terror groups” in the west into the PLO while managing the diplomatic and financial fallout."

In November 2022, EI hosted a podcast called “How Zionists collaborated with the Nazis.” in the podcast, “Zionists during that time not only were not bothered about the Holocaust, they actively tried to stop anyone who wanted to provide a refuge from doing so.”

In August 2022, Abunimah has said the following in an interview : “Israel always has to kill Palestinians because it is an illegitimate settler-colonial regime that faces constant resistance from the people whose land it is occupying, colonizing and stealing…the regular shedding of Palestinian blood is a necessary component of maintaining the existence of Israel.”

In June 2021, EI Associate Editor Nora Barrows participated in a conference, “Challenging Apartheid in Palestine: Reclaiming the Narrative, Formulating A Vision,” hosted by the Istanbul Sabahattin Zaim University. It was reported that sponsors, participating and conference , were linked to various terror groups, including, Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP).

In conclusion, Option 4 is the most relevant, considering EI's published content both historically as concluded in previous Reliable Sources discussions as well as recently as shown above; therefore one assumes that this source meets the criteria of Deprecation. Homerethegreat (talk) 10:30, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

@Homerethegreat: I'm sorry. What is the point behind the quotations above? You just quote passages without making any points about how they relate to reliability. "one assumes that this source meets the criteria of Deprecation." - don't assume: assumption was the problem with the prior discussion, and now you're copy-pasting the problem. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:22, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

• Option 2 Features section only, anything else only if it is a subject matter expert, and always with attribution. I don't believe that this source is guilty of falsification but some material is fairly heavily biased, so use with due care and attention.Selfstudier (talk) 11:40, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
• Option 3. They don't seem to do much original reporting. I give them 3 rather than 4 for the odd story that might serve as a useful justification for a statement, but I cannot see that happening very often. Most of their articles seem to be either one-sided reinterpretation of the news reported elsewhere or personal opinions. Epa101 (talk) 16:36, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

• Bad RFC Where is the prior discussion? Why is this going to a RfC without a recent discussion or a discussion of how this source is being used? We need examples of misuse before starting a RfC.

Springee (talk) 19:24, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

• Option 3 (possibly 2): There are a number of major issues with EI, which it is better to see as a group blog rather than a news site. First, it does not adequately distinguish between opinion and news (it has a category "features" which has /news in its URL and a category "opinion and analysis" with /opinion in the url; both of these are mainly opinion).The simple additional consideration would be to treat all articles as opinion pieces and therefore attribute. Second, it rarely presents new factual information. The "features" pieces by guest contributors in Palestine count as reportage, which are the most useful and fact-based articles, but the "features" pieces by their own (mostly US-based) team are second-hand analysis of material reported elsewhere. I would say that this secondary material should not be used citing them but rather that the original source should be used if and only if it's reliable (many of its sources are very unreliable, e.g. deprecated Grayzone), and that EI is not sufficiently reliable for it to count towards assessing noteworthiness. (Unsurprisingly, disinformation and conspiracy sites also republish EI articles. E.g. David Icke's website carried an EI article "How the Israel lobby fakes anti-Semitism" by Asa Winstanley.[13]) Third, I think that this is one of those cases where bias and reliability bleed into each other: EI frequently goes into conspiracy theory territory (this is especially true of its associate editor Asa Winstanley).[14] For instance, its support of antisemitic conspiracy theorist David Miller has led to its reportage being described as antisemitic by the Community Security Trust (CST),[15] and CST and anti-fascist researchers Hope Not Hate have described its reporting of Antisemitism in the UK Labour Party as conspiracy theory.[16] Winstanley frequently appears on Iran's PressTV, on a show produced by David Miller dedicated to antisemitic conspiracy theories.[17] Fourth, I think there might be instances where it can be seen to have been actively dishonest. In 2011, along with the Guardian, it falsely claimed that the CST had made up some quotes; the Guardian corrected their story but EI didn't.[18] Several right-wing monitors (CAMERA, HonestReporting, etc) have presented further examples, but I'm reviewing those as I don't see them as reliable sources either. I'll come back here when I have, and if these claims are compelling I'd say option 3 for definite, otherwise option 2 might be fine. BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:53, 27 November 2023 (UTC) Couple more data points. 1. Here are three biased (right-wing), probably unreliable and slightly outdated sources itemising several issues with EI: NGO Monitor,[19] HonestReporting,[20] CAMERA.[21] It's hard to disentangle political criticisms from exposing inaccuracies there, so I'll leave these for other editors to review themselves. 2. I hadn't realised the extent to which EI is integrated with sources that we deprecate. For instance, it heavily uses Al-Mayadeen as a source,[22][23] it is in turn hosted by Al-Mayadeen,[24] it gives a frequent platform to Max Blumenthal of Grayzone,[25] its staff also contribute to Sputnik, ZeroHedge, Russia Insider, MintPress, etc,[26] and are used as talking heads by Sputnik.[27] In this PolitiFact fact check of a fake news story circulated in the current Gaza conflict, by a far right anti-vaxxer, EI was one of the sources he shared, but the fact check does not actually describe the EI article as false. 3. On the other hand, I've found a couple of instances of its use as a source by reliable sources: Columbia Journalism Review from 2010,[28] Associated Press from 2013,[29] and India Today recently.[30] BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:53, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

This noticeboard is for discussing the reliability of sources in context. What kind of content do you want to use and for which article? Alaexis_¿question? 20:50, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

The regular discussions are about the sources in context, but the RFCs are general and a simple neutral question with the four options. See the other RFCs further up the page. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:04, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

The point stands. EI is cited as a source in several hundred articles, so its status at RSP has not presented an obstacle to its use. Is there an actual, live issue about its use or misuse as a source? Otherwise a new RFC is not in order. Banks Irk (talk) 01:42, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

The previous discussion was not a formal RFC with the four normal choices; Option 2, i.e. a halfway house was not presented; and the discussion was swamped by accounts now blocked as sock puppets/puppeteers. It was a not a level of discussion that should stand as the bar for this source. Obviously being labelled as GUNREL has a long-term impact on whether the source is deemed usable, with or without caveats. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:25, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

One more thing, is there a way to distinguish opinions from news published by the EI? E.g., is this article an opinion piece or news [31]? Here are some of the quotes from it (a) But we are to believe the Israelis had no idea [of the October 7 attack that] was planned right under their noses? They probably knew. And they waited for it., (b) The vast network of Zionist organizations acts as appendages of the Israeli state that extend into all our lives around the world. Alaexis_¿question? 20:55, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Not in the url from what I can tell, but other than by style, each piece has a short author bio at the end. The example you've shared has a conversational tone that betrays it as clear opinion, but beyond that it is attributed to an external party - the director of a literature festival. This analysis, on the other hand, is attributed to various contributors and "Asa Winstanley is an investigative journalist and associate editor with The Electronic Intifada", so we know it's in-house. This colour piece appears to be not in-house, but from a journalist and presumably commissioned, but it's a colour piece, so not news. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

So I assume that the analysis is the kind of content you'd like to use on Wikipedia. It's long and uses all kind of sources which range from very reliable to complete garbage, but these are some of the highlights

• Non-sequitur bordering on fake news. How is an opinion of a retired officer who did not take part in the fighting becomes a confirmation that Israel killed most Israeli civilians?

“ A retired Israeli army major has admitted [sic] Israel probably killed some of the 1,200 Israelis the government claims Hamas murdered on 7 October. The confession, discovered by The Electronic Intifada, is one of the highest level confirmations to date that Israel killed many, if not most, of the civilians that died during the Palestinian offensive. ”

• Opinion-piece-style statements in the supposed analysis piece: [Josep Borrell] had no regard for the dead women, children and elderly of Palestine, not to mention the men.
• Extreme bias: the hostages are described as detainees in the custody of Palestinian fighters
• Usage of dodgy sources: they mention an anonymous letter published by Mondoweiss

I wouldn't support deprecating the EI, unless there are proven examples of publishing deliberate falsehoods, but it falls far short of reliable source standards. Alaexis_¿question? 11:34, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I believe I set out by noting that its bias is clear. The question remains not one of its opinion, but one of factual inaccuracy. And, e.g., the "one of the highest level confirmations" statement, while clearly leaning into a viewpoint, is still couched. Any exceptional claims also remain covered by WP:ECREE. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:45, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Kingship and Colonialism in India’s Deccan 1850–1948

Is this a reliable source? Kingship and Colonialism in India’s Deccan 1850–1948 for citing historic events? Ajayraj890 (talk) 12:16, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

The author is a history professor (Benjamin B. Cohen) and the work is published by respectable publisher (Springer), so it should be reliable. Is there any particular detail that you're interested in? No source is always reliable, so context is important. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:15, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes. I am checking about the military conflicts between the kingdoms of Deccan during 16th century. Ajayraj890 (talk) 13:39, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

By context I meant an specific details, rather than the whole subject. As an example the book might be generally reliable, but include one specific statement that goes against academic consensus and so would be unreliable for that claim. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:10, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

I would like to utilize the information from the second paragraph on page 47. IA (talk) 01:55, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Which information specifically from that paragraph do you want to use and what statements to you propose to add to the article? Banks Irk (talk) 02:09, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

For anyone interested page 47 should be available here. I can't see anything exceptional, but it could be taken out of context. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:54, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

The Daily Telegraph (UK)

I want to re-open the debate on the reliability score given to the Daily Telegraph as a perennial source. It's currently on "Generally reliable". Epa101 (talk) 09:59, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Responses (The Daily Telegraph (UK))

• I know that there was a debate on the Telegraph in December 2022. This will focus on rulings by the Independent Press Standards Organisation since then. I have found seven cases when either the Daily Telegraph or telegraph.co.uk was given a sanction on a point of accuracy. I feel that its "Generally reliable" status is outdated. It has drifted outwith the mainstream with its vaccine scepticism. I know that their opinion on vaccines is outwith the considerations on this board, but I mention it to illustrate that this is not the "newspaper of record" of the past. I presume that there is only a realistic chance of its going down one rank, so I'll just put two options.

• Option 1: Generally reliable
• Option 2: Additional considerations

Exhibit 1 They said that a court had overruled the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill. This was not true.

Exhibit 2 They said that Sweden's spending on COVID-related interventions was less than a tenth as much as the UK's. This was not true.

Exhibit 3 They said that there is evidence that home-schooled children do not receive a good education, but then failed to produce the evidence when challenged.

Exhibit 4 They published inaccurate numbers on the number of people allowed to stay in the country under the UK's schemes in combatting modern slavery.

Exhibit 5 They said that a gas-turbine generator that was small enough to go on the back of a lorry would produce the same electricity, faster and more reliably, than 10 offshore wind turbines the size of the Eiffel Tower. This is not true.

Exhibit 6 They said that doctors and nurses were receiving 9% pay increases. This was not true.

Exhibit 7 They said that the decrease in deportation of criminals was linked to an increase in legal challenges on the grounds of human rights, but they could not back this up. You'll not be surprised to know that I vote for Option 2:. I know that all newspapers make mistakes, but I have two simple reasons: first, many of the British newspapers with lower reliability scores have made fewer mistakes in the same time period; second, the mistakes show a systematic bias towards the political right and I do not believe that this pattern could be a coincidence of simple errors. Epa101 (talk) 18:54, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

• Option 2 with regard to any of its 'oppion' pieces. The issue goes beyond just making mistakes, and in Exhibits 3–7 they argued for there incorrect figures/details until IPSO rules against them. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:36, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
• Option 1: Generally reliableLukewarmbeer (talk) 10:10, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
• Option 1 The source is clearly biased in terms of its right-wing perspective, but no news organisation is free of bias. However, the examples listed above do not detract from its reliability for our purposes. Rulings of this nature occur frequently for UK news orgs. I will deal with them one by one:

Ruling 1 (Sturgeon GRB): This was an opinion piece in which the columnist made a factual error. It would not be used in Wikipedia. The paper published a correction.

Ruling 2 (Covid) Opinion piece, would not be used other than for the writer's opinion. IPSO-mandated correction published.

Ruling 3 (Homeschooling) Opinion piece, would not be used other than for the writer's opinion. IPSO-mandated correction published.

Ruling 4 (modern slavery) Article quoted a minister who made inaccurate statements, and complaint was only partly upheld. IPSO-mandated correction published.

Ruling 5 (gas turbines)Opinion piece, would not be used other than for the writer's opinion. IPSO-mandated correction published.

Ruling 6 (doctors pay claim) This piece has poor use of statistics, however, the body text was accurate and the only factually false section was the headline which could not be used per WP:HEADLINE,

Ruling 7Was inaccurate, but only in part, and was corrected by IPSO.

Only two articles could have led to misleading information making it into Wikipedia, and these were later corrected. Boynamedsue (talk) 16:42, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Does it not matter that those two were only corrected after an IPSO ruling? If we say that corrections after an IPSO ruling erase the original error, then any newspaper that's a member of IPSO (i.e. the vast majority) would become a reliable source, since they all correct their errors when IPSO tell them to. Epa101 (talk) 22:06, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Well, not all papers are regulated by IPSO, but the two that aren't are probably more reliable in any case. I fully agree that membership of IPSO does not make a paper reliable, but I don't see significant unreliable content here. These are mostly really borderline cases, and the amount of good sourcing we would lose by downgrading the telegraph is insane. We can't compare with the Mail which is unusable given the propagandist nature of its entire output, or even something like the Jewish Chronicle which published a large number of factually inaccurate stories on a single topic over a very short period . Boynamedsue (talk) 23:44, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Just to be clear, my suggested Option 2 does not put it on the same level as the Daily Mail. It would still be two levels above the Mail. There would be no need to delete every Telegraph reference: it just loses its golden image. On propaganda, it should be noted that its close links to Boris Johnson made it very partisan during his premiership, and it has gone outside the mainstream since Borus was ejected. It's not the Torygraph any more. Epa101 (talk) 13:15, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

• No consensus. I really think it's destructive to the project to constantly be having RfCs about "do you like this newspaper? YES, everything it says is automatically true or NO, everything it says is automatically false". In the real world of normal humans, there are always "considerations" when you write something and find sources to cite. Opinion pieces reflect opinions. Why do we have to have an official stance on them? jp×g🗯️ 23:06, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: My impression is that The Daily Telegraph is generally reliable for news reporting. As with other news sources, opinion pieces are not relevant to our evaluation of the source's reliability for factual reporting. Many news outlets do not fact-check their opinion pieces to the same standard as reporting; this is why WP:RSEDITORIAL says that "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces...are rarely reliable for statements of fact." —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 02:36, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

I think Boynamedsue analysis is correct here. It's totally normal for a major newspaper with a lot of content to have IPSO complaints upheld and to issue corrections. Although IPSO is very imperfect, the fact the paper succumbs to regulation and acts on findings against it counts in its favour in terms of reliability. If there were a significant number of news. Given these corrections mostly relate to opinion and a headline and/or were only partially upheld shows that there is no cause to move from the current option 1 status. BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:58, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

• Option 1: no change - there seems no substantive change here to make for any change to the "Generally" reliable. IPSO issues had happened prior to the 2022 rating, and having another 7 problems among some hundreds or thousands of pieces since still seems "Generally" reliable. That they occurred in opinion pieces and were responded to by editorial staff seems further mitigation. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 22:55, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Discussion (The Daily Telegraph (UK))

• You haven't set this up as an RFC, WP:RFCOPEN explains how to do it properly. That will ensure that notifications are sent out, and the discussion is listed correctly. As an aside "Exhibit 1" doesn't say that "Nicola Sturgeon resigned as a result of the Bill" was untrue but rather that it was a unprovable statement of opinion, and "Exhibit 2" has the same link as "Exhibit 1". -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:30, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

  Epa101, ping so you're aware. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:37, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

  My apologies for not setting this up correctly. After more than 15 years on Wikipedia, I'm still making errors. Thanks also for your pointers on my mistake. Epa101 (talk) 22:26, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

  Epa101, please remove all of your argumentation to the discussion section and leave a neutral rfc statement at the top before this draws responses. As it is now it's a violation of WP:RFCNEUTRAL. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:08, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

  OK, I'm moving it. I don't understand why some of the other notices on this Noticeboard don't have this structure that's being required here, but I'll move it anyway. Epa101 (talk) 09:57, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

  • Bad RFC Not only is this malformed, as noted above, but it is improper. The last RFC was only a year ago. All of the "evidence" consists of complaints about statements in editorial of opinion pieces, not the accuracy or inaccuracy of news reports. And none of them involved use of those opinion pieces as sources in a specific article here. A new RFC is not in order. Banks Irk (talk) 01:53, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

    First, putting evidence in inverted commas is just childish. That is robust evidence. All of it is since the last decision, so it's all new. It all says that it's a matter of fact and not of opinion. Are you arguing that the IPCC is wrong to say that these are matters of fact? If so, you need a source for that, which is stronger than the IPCC's judgement. As regards how they're not used in a specific article, I don't think that is required for a judgement on a perennial source. There wouldn't be much point in having the ratings for each perennial source if we just judged each article on its individual merits. Why say that the Mirror, Morning Star, Mail, Sun, Express, etc. is less reliable in general by the Telegraph if we can just judge each article in each publication on its own merits? When we gave lower ratings to those publications, we didn't say that their inaccuracies had to occur in an article cited in a Wikipedia article. Epa101 (talk) 10:02, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

    Agree it's far too soon for another RFC Lukewarmbeer (talk) 10:08, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

    Is there any time period in which you're not allowed to make another suggestion? I didn't see this in the rules. I can understand that it would get annoying if the same person keeps making the same argument again and again, but I hope that my suggestion here is substantially different to the last one. The December 2022 debate was dominated by the Telegraph's coverage of trans issues. That comes into my first exhibit, but that is only one of seven. I would also note that this newspaper has changed in recent years. It has become more alt-right (e.g. on vaccines) and less conventionally Conservative Party; a rule that a source cannot be reconsidered for multiple risks missing changes such as this. Epa101 (talk) 12:13, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

• Several of these complaints appear to be with reference to opinion pieces in the Telegraph, which already would not usually be considered reliable for statements of fact per WP:RSOPINION. I think only three ([32], [33], [34]) are related to the Telegraph's news coverage, of which one ([35]) only rules that the headline was misleading: and per WP:RSHEADLINE headlines are already not a reliable source. So of the seven rulings initially cited, as far as I can make out only two are relevant to the question of the reliability of the Telegraph's news coverage. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 14:36, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

  Also, 4 is about false statements by a former minister that were correctly reported. Although that violates IPSO journalistic standards, rs policy does not say that news media could report false statements by politicians without fact-checking them. TFD (talk) 17:10, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

• Agree per Banks Irk BADRFC, and no need for a new RFC per Caeciliusinhorto and others that the examples offered are opinion pieces, not news, whose use is already covered by other guideline. I also note criticism of the Independent Press Standards Organisation (IPSO) at that article, and wonder if there is any such body limiting freedom of published opinions in other countries (eg US). We have fact-checkers, for example, but no body that I'm aware of limiting the freedom to be wrong in your opinions. Short of defamatory publications, I wonder how many non-UK publications would by reduced to "restrictions apply" to their reliability if we included mistakes in their commentary and opinion sections; I suspect we'd be left with very few generally reliable sources if we scrutinized very opinion column in the US to the level that apparently the IPSO does. When fact-checking extends to opinion and commentary, rather than news, short of defamation, that would seem to limit freedom of expression, which includes the possibility of being wrong in your opinions. And if the UK has this IPSO body, why do they have such a horrific tabloid industry (confused)? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:47, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

  You can search on their website for breaches, including whether a sanction was decided upon, against any newspaper that is a member (which is the vast majority). Note that the websites are listed separately from the paper, as some articles are only published online. If we compare to newspapers with a lower reliability rating in the same time period: the Daily Mirror/Sunday Mirror has 4, the Morning Star has 0, the Daily Mail/Mail on Sunday has 3, the Daily Express/Sunday Express has 3, the Sun [on Sunday] has 3 and the Daily Star [Sunday] has 0. I accept that some newspapers see the IPSO as insufficiently strict and have not joined, so we cannot compare with them. Still I think that there are enough member newspapers to make comparisons. I feel that the Daily Telegraph is living on old glory with its Wikipedia reputation. Epa101 (talk) 22:02, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree that most of the complaints were about commentary pieces, which are not considered rs anyway. Also, the proposer does not provide any comparison with other broadsheets. If for example the Financial Times, Independent and Guardian had similar levels of complaints upheld against them, then we would be unfairly apply an impossible standard. In fact those papers are not even members of the IPSO, yet are considered rs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Four Deuces (talk • contribs) 17:16, November 24, 2023 (UTC)

The Independent is considered a bit of a fallen giant in Britain now and it is not considered alongside the other broadsheets any more, but nonetheless it has 0 rulings against it for accuracy in this time period. The Financial Times has 0 rulings in the same period. The Times has 3. Unlike other British newspapers with Sunday editions, the Sunday Times is still a very different newspaper from the Times, so I'll count that separately. The Sunday Times has 1. The Guardian is not a member of IPSO, so I cannot compare with that. These comparisons are limited, but the Telegraph has more than others considered. As you can see in my response to SandyGeorgia above, the perennial sources with lower reliability scores have had fewer sanctions for accuracy in this period. Epa101 (talk) 22:22, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

It still reflects an odd sense of press freedom, given there is no such thing in the US to my knowledge; people are entitled to errors in their opinions, as long as they aren't defamatory. And given we have no such beast in the US, it makes no sense to penalize one UK paper for a controversial guardian of the press. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:07, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I suggest leaving ideas of press freedom to one side, as that is a big can of worms. There are some restrictions in the USA that don't apply in the UK, such as the rules on foreign ownership. A lot of our national papers are owned by people with little connection to the UK. On its reliability, I'm not saying to treat it worse than every other newspaper. I'm questioning why we put it on a pedestal at present. My suggested Option 2 only knocks it down one rung. Epa101 (talk) 13:15, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

• I'd say we should wait and see whether The Telegraph is acquired by the Emiratis (which is currently under discussion). Once that has happened and some time is passed, a RfC is probably appropriate considering the UAE's track record regarding freedom of the press. Cortador (talk) 14:05, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Breakinglatest.news

Over the last few months, there have been several reports of The Smiley Company giving legal threats to individuals on Etsy and Ebay over selling smiley face-related products. An edit ([36]) was made to the company's article regarding this, but the source given looked... really bad.

I checked the RSN archives, and while I found a previous discussion about breakinglatest.news, an alternate source was found for that topic. I can't find any other source covering this one, so I reverted the topic, but I figured I should report it here, just to be sure I'm making the right move. miranda ^:3 02:14, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

It's LLM written dross. See this where there was an error generating an article. There's also piles of ads as articles, no editorial board or bylines. Unreliable. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 02:31, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

And another one where the article is pasted into the title field. I don't usually like to endorse things for the blacklist on such short notice, but this really does seem like a giant pile of shit. jp×g🗯️ 23:01, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

• Breakinglatest.news   shows that we have over 60 uses for this source. I think given the LLM stuff there's no need for deprecation and it should go straight onto the blacklist as spam. Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:35, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

• That entire site is a mess. We should blacklist them for the LLM content alone, let alone the lack of an editorial policy. Cortador (talk) 14:09, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

User:Superastig's usage of first party references

I've reached out to @Superastig: to refrain from posting first party references from articles with mostly first party references which all came from the same Facebook account.[37] The editor ignored my message from their talkpage and removed it, without directly responding to my concerns. This editor continues to post first party facebook links in different Wikipedia articles.[38][39][40][41][42]. Posting first party references from social media accounts is against WP:SPS TheHotwiki (talk) 05:17, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

This appears to be the Facebook account of GMA Network who broadcast the programmes in those articles. It's not a great source but WP:ABOUTSELF allows for this type of referencing, -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:13, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

What about the ratings itself? Surely that needs to be provided by a third party source, instead of the Facebook account of the network broadcasting these shows. I've reviewed the episodes section of those article, and they have no other source for its reference, other than the Facebook account of the network (GMA Network) broadcasting those shows. TheHotwiki (talk) 13:10, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Am I missing something in the edits I don't see any ratings being added. Any ratings or other such claims would need secondary sourcing. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:02, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

For the past several months, you never bat an eye whenever anyone, including me, updates the episode titles of every TV series with the kind of sources you indicated. I'm puzzled as to why you got triggered about it today.

There's really nothing wrong with update the episode titles of every GMA TV series. I never claim ownership of every episode list I create. Yet, you seem to get in the way by making strict rules, from not having a separate page for episode lists to requiring us to indicate sources of every episode title. Meanwhile, several editors update the episode titles of every ABS CBN TV series, List of Batang Quiapo episodes and List of Dirty Linen episodes without posting sources about the episode titles.

You've made a big deal out of this issue for a very long time. And it's clear that you don't want anyone to create episode lists or update episode titles of every GMA TV series. Nothing personal. I'm just being honest. ASTIG😎🙃 12:51, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Please refrain from resorting personal attacks. You're accusing me of things I didn't do or say. Do you have evidence that that will prove that I don't want anyone to create episode lists or update episode titles of every Gma TV series? TheHotwiki (talk) 13:15, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

How am I resorting to personal attacks when I'm just being honest with what I said? Common sense, men. We've had this kind of argument numerous times.

This started sometime in August 2021 with Ang Dalawang Ikaw. You nominated its episode list for deletion, in which the list ended up getting merged. With this move, you prompted me to stop creating a separate page for episode lists for every TV series upon its launch.

Not long after, in the same page, you reverted by update and said "again post a reference, you've been told many times to add references". We even had an argument about it. Prior to that, you never reminded anyone to do such. With this move, you prompted me to add a reference everytime I update an episode title.

These prove that you get in the way of creating/updating episode titles of every GMA TV series.

This is never a personal attack. Not even an accusation. All of these were based on our past arguments. And it's the truth and nothing but the truth no matter what. ASTIG😎🙃 14:51, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

You were making separate articles for TV shows, when the article for the TV series themselves weren't even long to warrant a separate article for episodes. It was the main reason why I nominated that article for deletion. You are accusing me of "not wanting a list of episodes and not wanting anyone to update episode titles", which are both false. If I didn't want a list of episodes, all your contributions when it comes to episodes list would have been deleted a long time ago. You were asked to provide third party references in those episodes section (since there wasn't any), which you failed to do so. I brought this issue here, since you didn't cooperate when I messaged you in your talk page and you just removed my message in your talk page. Now you're spewing false accusations toward me, which is a form of a personal attack. How is that civil? TheHotwiki (talk) 15:13, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

You were making separate articles for TV shows, when the article for the TV series themselves weren't even long to warrant a separate article for episodes.

I used to, just like Mc Eduard Figueroa did. But, when this discussion came, I began understanding WP:SPLITLIST. From them on, I never created a separate page for list of episodes upon the time every TV show starts airing, especially when it hasn't reached 100.

You are accusing me of "not wanting a list of episodes and not wanting anyone to update episode titles", which are both false.

Really? Then you should've let the episode lists of such GMA TV shows be rather than making a big deal out of something small, like the "need" for episode titles to have a source. Real simple.

You were asked to provide third party references in those episodes section

The sources I used for episode titles are no big deal at all. In fact, I don't see a requirement for episode titles to have a source. In all of the episode lists Mc Eduard Figueroa created, such as Kambal, Karibal, there were no sources indicated for every episode title. No comment about the sources for the ratings. Be thankful I did away with sources from Yera Calma.

when I messaged you in your talk page and you just removed my message in your talk page.

I have the right to remove your messages because I don't want to get into a heated argument. I'm getting tired of your complaints regarding episode lists. I'd rather have peace of mind.

Now you're spewing false accusations toward me, which is a form of a personal attack.

Those are never false accusations. Those were based on the arguments we had several months ago. Yet, you failed to read any of the links that I indicated in my previous reply.

Even if we keep arguing about this all day long, this is never a personal attack. And there's nothing you can do about it because I am really telling the truth. This is the last time I'll respond to your post. I'm tired of explaining. I'm not gonna waste my time in this discussion ever again. ASTIG😎🙃 16:24, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

• This seems less like a discussion for RSN and more one for ANI, as it's essentially entirely about editor behavior rather than discussion of sources. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 15:14, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

  I was just about to say the same thing. Sergecross73 msg me 16:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Request additonal eyes to review refs

These three refs have recently been attached to an entry on the list of Longest recorded sniper kills, (currently ranked first), as well as in some of the article's prose. While I know some of these sites are generally accepted as reliable, I'm not so sure about their reliability in supporting the content there after further evaluation of them. Would appreciate some extra eyes to take a look. Thanks - wolf 05:19, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

refs

• Thewolfchild already requested extra eyes at Longest recorded sniper kills... Specifically pinging me on the talk page and requesting I review the entry[43]... Apparently they didn't like what I had to say because they decided to edit war and jump venues. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 05:24, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
• The Independent is a good quality source, I can't see any reason to doubt it. Also as four of the references used for other entries in that article are undefined error messages the referencing for this entry is doing well.-- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:17, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
  • Agreed. If we accept the premise that "longest recorded sniper kills" is a meaningfully confirmable record, the sourcing for this entry appears to be just as good as the others in the table – and better than several. The Independent is normally a reliable source; unless other reliable sources have actively cast doubt on the validity of this claim it seems to have just as good a claim to inclusion as anything else in the list. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 12:25, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
• Just to clarify, I'm not asking if the source itself is unreliable, just the specific report, for this specific entry. (If an editor wishes to examine the sources for a different entry and ask asistance, they're free to. But to say "the other entries sourcing isn't very good, so give this a pass", is not very helpful.) The Independent relies on a post from Messenger, an SPS, and comments from a primary source. Newsweek states they: "could not independently verify this information nor the video, and has reached out to the SBU and Russia's defense ministry for additional comment.", and the Kyev Idenpendent relies on a "local source", which is also a post on the Telegram Messenger app, an SPS. So I'm asking if these specific reports are acceptable sourcing. Note, I had first posted about this to the article talk page (as we're supposed to), but after several days, only received a response from two editors, one that only addressed another entry on the list, and the second that only addressed one of the sources, so I came here. Thanks again for any assistance. - wolf 14:55, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

  My point on the other references wasn't on their reliability it is that four of them don't exist they are just error messages. My other comments still stand the Independent is reliable, and I very much doubt any of the other claims have been independently verified (unless someone from the Guinness book of records was there adjudicating). -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:06, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

  By coincidence I got to this article today while clearing down Category:Harv and Sfn no-target errors and removed the references that were broken. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:25, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

  We don't generally question the sources a source uses. Nor would I expect independent verification of most military activities to be available, we don't have that for anything else on that page... So either you're challenging the entire page or you have no argument here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:30, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

  So when Yahoo states that their report is supported by an sps post on a messenger app, you still believe that specific source should be retained as reliable? Or when Newsweek openly states that they haven't verified the info in their report (so not just a questionable source, but no source at all), you would also accept that report as reliable? WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. - wolf 05:37, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

  Again you're using our RS standards to evaluate the sources that the sources use rather than simply the sources themselves. That is a misapplication of this standards. You're mistaken and need to refresh your understanding of how reliability works on wikipedia. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:38, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

  Erm, I thought we were supposed to evaluate sources to determine if they specifically apply to, and sufficiently support, the content they're being attached to. I must've missed the part in the P&G that says we "must blindly accept any ref jammed into an article, as long as it comes from a source that is found to be 'generally' reliable". Again, in evaluating these sources here, one stated they were referring to a "local source" which turned out to be a comment on the telegram messenger app (one step above 4chan on the sps ladder), while another source plainly stated they "had not confirmed the info in their report". Are you really saying you believe we must accept those refs as reliable, with no study or discourse what-so-ever? You think that makes for a dependable encyclopaedia? - wolf 05:08, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

  Reliable sources all use SPS, primary, fringe, biased, unreliable, etc sources in their reporting... Thats not a problem for us. If you want to challenge the sources themselves you can do so... But right now you're challenging the sources the sources are using which is completely different thing. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:07, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

  The Independent attributes these claims to Ukrainian sources (A Ukrainian sniper claims, In a press statement, the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) said: “The SBU sniper set a world record for a successful shot.). While they do mention it as a fact later (The world-record comes...) they don't say anything about verifying these claims and I would attribute them too on Wikipedia. Alaexis_¿question? 20:46, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

using your own cloud for providing documents which cannot be found otherwise in the web.

In a recent discussion on Talk:Space Race#German influence on Soviet space program @SchmiAlf has confirmed he has been using his own cloud website at “owncloud.birkenwald.de” for providing documents which cannot be found otherwise in the web. Appears SchmiAlf has done this for articles and talk pages. Examples I have identified include:

German influence on the Soviet space program

• https://owncloud.birkenwald.de/owncloud/index.php/s/KwbxkbCmynYMfPs

Talk:Space Race, Talk:German influence on the Soviet space program & Helmut Gröttrup

• https://owncloud.birkenwald.de/owncloud/index.php/s/NWbxo4XkpW86WfC
• https://owncloud.birkenwald.de/owncloud/index.php/s/QD7rdfAXcMrfWps
• https://owncloud.birkenwald.de/owncloud/index.php/s/o8TDDTKN3NH3PFr

I assume that these are not reliable sources as per WP:RS and WP:USG, but would like other Editors views.

I also invite @SchmiAlf to provide comments, including an explanation of how he obtained this information, plus disclose any other articles / talk pages he has used his own cloud website to provide information. Ilenart626 (talk) 12:12, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Can it be conformed these documents are genuine? Slatersteven (talk) 12:13, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

This seems like a bad idea at first glance. Selfstudier (talk) 12:15, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

With no provenance to show where the documents came from, and no way to verify that they are genuine they are unusable. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:20, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Here are some relevant points from the assessment of Wikileaks as a source. "Some editors believe that documents from WikiLeaks fail the verifiability policy, because WikiLeaks does not adequately authenticate them, and there are concerns regarding whether the documents are genuine or tampered. ... [L]inking to material that violates copyright is prohibited by WP:COPYLINK". Burrobert (talk) 12:22, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Yup. Obvious copyright concerns, and absolutely no means to verify the material. Cannot under any circumstances be cited. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:26, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

But these are not from Wikileaks (a third party), but from a Wikipedia editor. An argument could be made that Wikileaks as a publisher is reliable (not an argument I would necessarily agree with), but a Wikipedia editor is defacto not considered reliable for sourcing purposes. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:28, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

• It’s not so simple. Remember that there is no requirement that a source be on-line.

So… A LOT depends on where the editor found these documents. Did he find them in his grandmother’s attic, or in a publicly accessible and cataloged archive (such as a university library)? If the latter, THAT ARCHIVE is what should be cited. A scan can sometimes be included with the citation as a “courtesy link”, but it is the ORIGINAL that gets cited. The reputation of the archiving venue is what determines whether they are authentic (and thus reliable) or not (a university would have a good reputation for authenticating documents, your grandmother would not).

That said, no matter where they were found, these documents would be considered primary sources… with all the cautions and restrictions that apply to the use of primary sources. Blueboar (talk) 12:58, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for all the comments. Regarding https://owncloud.birkenwald.de/owncloud/index.php/s/XTAeeiz4wfbS3X7 SchmiAlf has advised “The Zvezda document was handed over as a printed copy to Ursula Gröttrup, Helmut Gröttrup's daugther who grew up on Gorodomlya.” . I’ll let him provide details of the other documants. Ilenart626 (talk) 13:18, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

That would be akin to “found in my grandmother’s attic” and not considered reliable. Blueboar (talk) 13:25, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Overwhelming reactions, indeed. All of them are courtesy links to make these documents available for Wikipedia users and discussions. None of them is my own work or own source. In detail this is explained as follows:

German influence on the Soviet space program

• https://owncloud.birkenwald.de/owncloud/index.php/s/KwbxkbCmynYMfPs

This document can be publicly found in the archive of the Deutsches Museum as part of "Nachlass Helmut Gröttrup (NL 281)" (Gröttrup's inhereditary), see also DM archive info 2/2017

Talk:Space Race, Talk:German influence on the Soviet space program & Helmut Gröttrup

• https://owncloud.birkenwald.de/owncloud/index.php/s/NWbxo4XkpW86WfC

This is the transcript of Ursula Gröttrup's commemorative address on behalf of her fathers 100th anniversary (held on Feb 3, 2017).

• https://owncloud.birkenwald.de/owncloud/index.php/s/QD7rdfAXcMrfWps

This is the transcript of Olaf Przybilski's commemorative address on behalf of Helmut Gröttrup's 100th anniversary (held on Feb 3, 2017).

• https://owncloud.birkenwald.de/owncloud/index.php/s/o8TDDTKN3NH3PFr

This is the Russian Zvezda document "70 Years Gorodomlya" together with a German translation. The pure Russian version is available via Звездные страницы and was scanned from an original which was handed over to Ursula Gröttrup. Unfortunately, the document was never published on the web. However, an 2016 archived version of the Zwezda plant news is available here to reference this 70 years event.

To add for future discussions:

• https://owncloud.birkenwald.de/owncloud/index.php/s/24bT4cP4f2xLCYR

Helmut Gröttrup's publication of April 1958 "Aus den Arbeiten des deutschen Raketenkollektivs in der Sowjet-Union" in DGRR (also part of "Nachlass Helmut Gröttrup (NL 281)" and now fully quoted in Helmut Gröttrup#Publications

• https://owncloud.birkenwald.de/owncloud/index.php/s/BHp4MDDZZTcGnpG

Helmut Gröttrup's 1959 publication "Über Raketen - Allgemeinverständliche Einführung in Physik und Technik der Rakete" (About rockets - General introduction to the physics and technology of rockets) (also part of "Nachlass Helmut Gröttrup (NL 281)" and fully quoted in Helmut Gröttrup#Publications

Due to Wikipedia guidelines, none of these documents could be shared via Wikipedia Commons. --SchmiAlf (talk) 17:41, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

From Wikipedia:Reliable sources Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, even WP:PRIMARY sources must meet this requirement. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:16, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

It's absolutely within the remit of policy to cite offline sources. If something hasn't been published online, we can just cite it to wherever it has been published, and whether the person citing it happens to provide a convenience URL is immaterial (whether it goes to nasa.gov, imageshack.us or whatwhatinthebutt.cheapsupplements.biz.su). If the things are part of some archived collection, well: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Definition_of_published. We have articles that cite treatises from the 1600s and newspaper articles from the 1800s, et cetera. If they've been published, then they should be cited, and if homeslice wants to give convenience URLs we should be thankful for it. If they haven't been published, then they shouldn't be cited, and the URLs don't matter either way. jp×g🗯️ 22:58, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Offline sources are of course fine, any URL even one to an article on a website is still only for convenience (with title and website name you should still be able to find it). But I don't think it's clear here whether all of these have ever been published. If they have then it's not an issue, but the question isn't about them just being offline. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 23:19, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

To clarify if these exist in a museum archive that other editors can access (however complex gaining access might be) then it's fine, if it's the personal papers of an individual then it's not. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:35, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

How many of these links breach WP:ELNEVER re copyvio (are they so old they are public domain), and if they don't have copyright release from the original holder, should they even be linked on this page ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:02, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Would suggest that @SchmiAlf provide some further information on how he obtained these sources to determine if they have been published, as per Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Definition_of_published. For example, how he obtained the scan of “an original which was handed over to Ursula Gröttrup.”, how he obtained the transcripts, etc. If these have all been “published” then no problem.

Was also thinking that there maybe copyright issues, but thought it best to raise the issue here first. If these sources are determined to be reliable, the copyright issue can be dealt with separately, most probably via Media copyright questions board. Ilenart626 (talk) 13:37, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

If it helps smoothing your concerns, I can add the following:

• The Zvezda document was printed with an edition of 2,000 copies (which is noted on the bottom of page 11 together with the name and address of the printing work). It has been distributed to Zvezda employees, business partners and other people (like Ursula Gröttrup). She lent me here sample for scanning. So we both can affirm that it exists as a real printed document.
• The transcripts are of secondary relevance and not used as arguments in our dispute. The speeches (in front of about 200 people) were recorded and later the personal scripts were aligned to the speeches, approved by the authors and put on the web for interested people.

With regard to your copyright concerns: I thought you are interested in finding Russian sources (which Anatoly Zak was still missing in 2012) "to collaborate claims about the extensive influence of the Gorodomlya team on the Soviet rocketry". So it is not a copyright issue, just a question of putting things together under the conditions of fair use. SchmiAlf (talk) 16:11, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

SchmiAlf has now provide further information, so I invite @ActivelyDisinterested, @Selfstudier, @Burrobert, @AndyTheGrump, @Blueboar, @JPxG and @SandyGeorgia to review and hopefully finalise this request. In particular, SchmiAlf has stated on Talk:Space Race#German influence on Soviet space program that the Zvezda document is a reliable source that should overide other sources, for example, the conclusions in Asif Siddiqi (2000) 'Challenge to Apollo, the Soviet Union and the space race, 1945–1974, p84, specifically “after 1947 the Soviets made very little use of German specialists and their influence on the future Soviet space program was marginal.” Would appreciate any comments on how we should treat the Zvezda document from a reliability perspectice. Ilenart626 (talk) 12:23, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

have any RS commented on the "Zvezda document"? Slatersteven (talk) 12:56, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

none that I know of, will ping @SchmiAlf Ilenart626 (talk) 13:23, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

So it fails "reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". Slatersteven (talk) 13:27, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

They may also fail " been recorded then broadcast, distributed, or archived by a reputable party may also meet the necessary criteria to be considered reliable sources." as the publisher is not a reputable party, they are "some bloke on the internet". Slatersteven (talk) 13:29, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Nyet, basically not RS. Selfstudier (talk) 14:13, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

This sounds a lot like using primary documents to overcome secondary sources, it's not something I'd be comfortable with. Is there no secondary sources commenting on these documents? -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 14:17, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I would say no... People are free to disagree with this but I would rather we have a source which can't be directly accessed than have a source hosted on an editor's cloud. That is a slippery slope and I don't like where it leads. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:40, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I think this was already covered above, but we cannot link to a website that's violating someone else's copyright (or that we reasonably suspect violates copyright), as a user's cloud storage copy of an offline published document probably is. That is contributory copyright infringement, and our policy forbids it; those links should be removed. If there is no evidence of permission then we should presume that no permission has been obtained from the original copyright holder. If the user is doing this in multiple instances, their site should be blacklisted and they should probably be blocked as well. And as others said, there is no requirement for sources to be online, you just have to provide enough information in the citation that somebody else could locate the source and verify the information cited, if they wanted to. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 22:50, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree. There is no requirement that a source be available online. We frequently have editors post excerpts (or sometimes entire documents) from non-online or paywalled sources as a courtesy on talk pages or elsewhere. But we can't link to those courtesy copies, especially when it's a copyright violation. Banks Irk (talk) 23:31, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

To address the copyright concerns have now raised this issue at Wikipedia:Media_copyright_questions#using_your_own_cloud_for_providing_documents_which_cannot_be_found_otherwise_in_the_web Ilenart626 (talk) 14:07, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

@SchmiAlf: I haven't followed this discussion, like, at all, but if these documents are significant, can't you hand them over to a reliable source so they can write about it and verify their authenticity? — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 15:03, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Is http://afe.easia.columbia.edu a reliable source for info on asian history?

I've been trying to find a reliable source for the Mongol Battle Standard shown in vexilla mundi, and this website has an article on just that. Is this website a reliable source? Sci Show With Moh (talk) 01:07, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Vexilla Mundi is a hobby site run by a non-expert, the relevant policy is WP:SPS. It not a reliable source for Wikipedia's purposes. I can't find any use of it by on afe.easia.columbia.edu, could you clarify what you're asking? -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:41, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

I want to source the use of war tugs by the mongols, and there's an article on there about just that: http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/mongols/pop/genghis/standard_pop.htm. I'm not asking if vexilla mundi is a reliable source, only the site I linked in the title. Sci Show With Moh (talk) 14:00, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion. I agree with Banks Irk's comments below. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:20, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Looks OK to me. Academic site, qualified authors/editors. One caveat: The site is designed for elementary and secondary school educators in developing lesson plans. [44] As such, it is sort of like a textbook. College level texts are recognized as reliable sources, but typically not lower level texts. But, in this case it is probably OK, but I would prefer a better source. Perhaps the references on the site will provide a stronger source.Banks Irk (talk) 15:28, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Is the WashPo using Wikipedia as a source when reporting on MM4A.

Is the Washington Post copying bits from Wikipedia? The opening paragraph of this WP article about the Musk MM4A lawsuit included this line, "For almost 20 years, the nonprofit Media Matters for America has been known for its aggressive criticism of conservative outlets and journalists, and it has worked to get advertisers to boycott Fox News.".[45] Here is the last sentence of the Wikipedia MM4A article, "It is known for its aggressive criticism of conservative journalists and media outlets, including its "War on Fox News"."[46] The two sentences are very similar. Note, the rest of the article is not a copy from the Wikipedia entry. Springee (talk) 16:09, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

They are similar but they are summaries. I dont think the words aggressive criticism mean enough or are rare Softlem (talk) 16:46, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

If the goal of this is to suggest that the WP is relying on Wpedia and is thus not a reliable source itself, no. The WP has certainly done enough coverage of MM4A over the years that it has established the information in that sentence, whether or not we had an impact on its presentation. (And if that is not the goal, then I'm not clear why the matter is at this noticeboard.) -- Nat Gertler (talk) 16:53, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't argue WashPo is unreliable based on that one sentence even if it was copied from Wikipedia. I thought it was worth noting and wasn't sure if where it would be best discussed. Springee (talk) 18:04, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, if WaPo copied a Wikipedia article word-for-word, but independently vetted all of the copied statements, it would still be a WP:RS. If we catch a source copying bad info from Wikipedia with an apparent lack of vetting, that would be a problem for that source. BD2412 T 17:49, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

No. Banks Irk (talk) 19:30, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

No what? Are you staying the sentence isn't copied with mild changes? Springee (talk) 11:24, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes. Banks Irk (talk) 12:33, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Looking at the 4 sources cited in the wiki article, none have a sentence that would be a close phrasing of what we have. The WashPo sentence very much looks like a copy paste with a slight change. If you want to say it's not technically a copyright violation, sure. It's just one sentence. However, it certainly is evidence that WashPo is looking at Wikipedia for info and copied part of our lead with only mild changes. Springee (talk) 17:57, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Newsweek is more blatant but they buried the cut paste deeper in their article [47]. "Media Matters for America is a left-leaning 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization and media watchdog group founded in 2004 by journalist and political activist David Brock. It was established as a counterweight to the conservative Media Research Center and is known for its aggressive criticism of conservative journalists and media outlets, including its "War on Fox News."" Springee (talk) 18:04, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

The sentence was added to Wikipedia here and here by User:Safehaven86 in September 10, 2015. Safehaven86 was likely a member of a politics-oriented sock farm, possibly with a political agenda. Who is behind this? Clearly some kind of attempt to shape narrative. The earliest echo of the phrase is Fox News itself December 2017, and a Google search finds many other instances. Way to go Safehave86, job done. IMO it should be deleted from the article, but the damage is done, the meme has spread widely. -- GreenC 18:49, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I removed this phrase from the article, and started a talk page discussion. -- GreenC 21:10, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Sidebar note: There is no WP:RS requirement that requires WP:RS's to be based on wp:RS's. North8000 (talk) 18:16, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Indeed the hallmark of RS in some areas is that it is based on unreliable sources. For example in sci/med we want sedondary sources (reliable for Wikipeida) which analyse, synthesise and comment on primary sources (unreliable for Wikipedia). The supposition is that expert sources can sift and use unreliable source in ways which no Wikipedia editor is entitled to. Bon courage (talk) 18:30, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

If we start to see a pattern where a news outlet is frequently using WP in its reporting, then we definitely need to re-evaluate whether we can use it as a source for WP. We want to avoid circular referencing (WP citing a source which is based on WP). However, a single sentence in one news article being similar to a single sentence in WP is not a pattern. Blueboar (talk) 18:41, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Kat Tenbarge of NBCNews.com

No consensus is going to come from this thread.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Following the discussion which led to Claas Relotius of Der Speigel being determined to be an unreliable writer from an otherwise reliable source, I'd like to gauge consensus on Kat Tenbarge of NBCNews.com. She is a "tech and culture reporter" on NBCNews.com, and is formally a writer for Business Insider. Her modus operandi appears to be browsing Twitter to find sources for her NBCNews.com articles. I've identified issues in the quality of her reporting and overall journalistic standards. In this article, Tenbarge uses a Twitter user named "Kamilla" as a source, describing "Kamilla" as an "expert" in "intimate partner violence and stalking". "Kamilla" subsequently identified herself as "an extremely young girl". In that article, Tenbarge uses "Kamilla" as a springboard to highlight the personal information of another Twitter user, with whom she was in a feud. She also admits to posting the employment details, business address, personal address and other personal information of the husband of the latter Twitter user,[48] presumably in an effort to intimidate the family. I would like to determine consensus as to whether Kat Tenbarge's NBCNews.com articles should be considered reliable. I personally believe Wikipedia shouldn't be touching her articles with a bargepole, considering she potentially used a child as a primary source in her reporting, and admits to publicizing the personal details of the family of someone she was in a Twitter feud. Would like to hear as much feedback as possible. Kind regards, Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 00:06, 26 November 2023 (UTC) First, is there an actual, live issue in a Wikipedia article about a reference to Tenbarge as a source? As for Der Speigel, thehe situations are not remotely comparable, and the OP misrepresents the content of the linked article. There is no claim that her reporting is false. So, no, there is no basis to question Tenbarge's reliability. Banks Irk (talk) 19:17, 26 November 2023 (UTC) No, there is no "live issue" regarding her reporting; this is more a general question of poor-quality reporting practices (i.e., using a child as a source and misrepresenting that child as an "expert"). And I'd hate to give the impression I was somehow comparing Kat Tenbarge to Claus Relotius directly. The point was to note that there is precedent of a writer from a publication being questioned, without that questioning impacting the usability of the source overall. Hope that clarification helps. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 22:49, 26 November 2023 (UTC) I am baffled by your characterization of the linked article. Nowhere does she use a child as a source, and nowhere does she portray anyone as an expert. The whole article reports on disputes over the real identity of an anonymous poster harassing the parties in the Depp v Heard case. Are you linking to the wrong article? Banks Irk (talk) 00:09, 27 November 2023 (UTC) The "anonymous poster" you're referring to is "Kamilla", the primary source of the NBCNews.com article I linked, whom Tenbarge offers as an "expert" in "intimate partner violence and stalking"; "Kamilla" later identified herself on Twitter as an "extremely young girl", a child. I really don't know how to make it any clearer at this point. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 00:47, 27 November 2023 (UTC) There is a complete disconnect between what the article states and what you claim it states. Banks Irk (talk) 01:11, 27 November 2023 (UTC) No there isn't. Maybe read all the links provided in the OP first before commenting? Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 01:30, 27 November 2023 (UTC) I stand by by assessment. The article says no such thing. We're done here. Banks Irk (talk) 02:02, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Seconding everything Banks says--the anon account is not a source, she's just reached for comment (Kamilla, who does not disclose her full name to protect her privacy, said in tweets and via direct message that she is not White.) and the word "expert" is never applied to Kamilla in the slightest. Unless the article has been edited, that word only appears once: Still, Depp-focused creators have continued to feed his fanbase with new content, including takedowns of the creators, journalists, academics and domestic violence experts who have spoken in defense of Heard. Just wanted to add this because I find Tenbarge's journalism pretty good in her space and don't want there to be any question that she's acceptable. Alyo (chat·edits) 03:18, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

+1, the original complaint appears to completely mischaracterize the article it's complaining about. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 15:04, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Hello Magazine

Does Hello Magazine meet the requirements for WP:RS when it comes to an actor's personal life? I can't tell if it does or if it's a gossip magazine that shouldn't be used. Kcj5062 (talk) 14:31, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

It is certainly a gossip magazine, often with fawning interviews and profiles, and frequently pays vast sums to its subjects for exclusive coverage in concert with their publicists. Don't use it for a BLP for anything remotely questionable or controversial. Banks Irk (talk) 19:30, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

SimpleFlying.com

I'm not very experienced so please correct me if I'm not going about this correctly. I've noticed that a vast number of aviation articles utilize information sourced exclusively to https://simpleflying.com which is a content farm that regularly plagiarizes other publications, doesn't have a reputation for fact checking, or otherwise being reliable. I began removing citations to simpleflying but realize that given how many articles utilize it, I should seek input.

I found a previous discussion that seems to agree with my perspective. It contains a lot of information but anything that's noteworthy in the aviation/airlines/airports space will have gotten coverage from more reliable publications or local news.

I believe that it should be "deprecated". Avgeekamfot (talk) 08:43, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Sports Illustrated

Sports Illustrated was caught publishing articles by AI-generated writers per Futurism. See Awful Announcing's coverage also [49]. The articles in question were apparently removed but this bears watching. Jessintime (talk) 20:04, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I had come here just now to post the same thing. This is quite disturbing. It's not so much that they are using whatever technology to write these, but that they are apparently lying and deliberately misrepresenting the product of doing so. Like -- fake authors with GAN profile pictures? You've got to be kidding me. This is like, www.best-reaI-news-4u.co.biz tier shit. jp×g🗯️ 20:52, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I came here for the same reason. Generally, reliable sources acknowledge their mistakes and publicize their corrections. So far Sports Illustrated has done neither. To me that isn't a good sign. --Pinchme123 (talk) 21:38, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Both Sports Illustrated and Men's Journal are now just content farms for Arena Group. Neither should be assumed to be reliable sources going forward. Nosferattus (talk) 15:35, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Saw this too. CNET did something similar back in January, and we downgraded its reliability to "generally unreliable". May need to consider something similar for Sports Illustrated. InfiniteNexus (talk) 17:41, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Second time this has happened and again the source outfarms responsibility to a third party, which is understandable as they were outfarming their content creation to content farms. The fact their reputation goes in the trash doesn't seem to be a factor, only accepting any old drivel in a bad attempt to increase page views. Someone should right an essay about sources no longer being reliable once they start shipping AI content. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:04, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Not sure whether I'm the right person for that, but we should adapt a policy that sources who use AI-written content are automatically considered to be unreliable unless a discussion/RfC says otherwise. Cortador (talk) 14:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

AP and the Washington Post have reported on this. Apparently SI hired a third party that did that, but per AP denies that the articles were AI-written. I don't buy their excuse that only the pen names were AI-written - who would use AI for that, exactly? - and I think SI should be downgraded to "generally unreliable" for the time being. Cortador (talk) 14:25, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Ouch. If their internal editorial standards and operations are that low, then we should definitely bring Sports Illustrated down to "generally unreliable". :bloodofox: (talk) 14:34, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Sports Illustrated does still have some good human reporters who do good work. But, their overall content has gone downhill. Some of their content is still usable, but we should be cautious on what we use and what we don't. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:05, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps the way forward is to mark it as "special considerations apply", as "marginally reliable" in circumstances where the authorship can be easily determined to be a human. I think Cortador's proposal is something worth discussing further, as well. AI is going to be a serious problem for verifiability and reliability, particularly when distinct AI sources start referring to each other. --Pinchme123 (talk) 19:58, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

The Cradle

Seeking input about TheCradle ([50]). It was previously discussed last year with limited input. I've never heard of it, and I can't find anywhere it's cited by mainstream RS.

It describes itself as "online news magazine covering West Asia" and is user-supported. On its website, there's no masthead or an evidence of editorial oversight, and the language it uses is very biased (e.g., referring to Hamas as "Islamic resistance movement") and it appears to peddle in conspiracies ("a 'Hamas massacre' that may never have happened.". In one of its news articles, it states as fact that "some Israelis were killed by Hamas during the attack, while others were killed as collateral damage by Israeli forces using tanks, drones, and Apache helicopters, and to prevent Hamas from taking them back to Gaza as captives," which is disputed in mainstream RS.

There doesn't seem to be much original reporting, instead mostly selectively aggregating and repackaging content from other sources. Longhornsg (talk) 21:12, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Where has it been cited? Selfstudier (talk) 01:18, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

It’s a really bad source but if it’s not being used in WP it’s not really worth discussing here. BobFromBrockley (talk) 05:24, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Oh we use it quite a lot: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=insource%3A%22thecradle.co%22&title=Special%3ASearch&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&ns0=1&ns1=1 First use listed (in Afghanistan article) is a piece by conspiracy theorist Pepe Escobar. This is a dreadful site that’s possibly worse than recently deprecated Al-Mayadeen and we should not be using it. BobFromBrockley (talk) 05:29, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Never heard of or read Pepe Escobar, but calling him a conspiracy theorist seems harsh after scanning his wikiarticle. Mujinga (talk) 17:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

In addition to the Cradle, he's found a comfortable home for his words at The Unz Review, RT, PressTV, and Sputnik News, among other watering holes of conspiracy theorists and antisemitism peddlers. Longhornsg (talk) 21:19, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

The Cradle is clearly pro-Palestinian, and therefore a biased source, if that's what you wanted me to say. I'd disagree with pretty much all of your assessment though. For example, we also call Hamas the Islamic Resistance Movement since that's its name. Mujinga (talk) 17:03, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

• The site has an icon "Become an Author", i.e. anyone can contribute after registering. It does not say anything about editorial policies and fact checking. Therefore, it looks to me almost like a blog, i.e. "generally unreliable". It probably should not be used for contentious political topics. My very best wishes (talk) 17:14, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

  The "become an author" link is an invitation to pitch a story -- not at all like anyone can contribute. (Also that's not how blogs work?) --100.36.106.199 (talk) 21:14, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

• It's quite interesting that they chose to write the following passage on their About Us page We chose the name The Cradle as a reminder that the cradle of civilization was borne of this region... West Asia is the start of history in so many ways, but today the region has lost its roots largely because non-sovereign states act as pawns in the geopolitical calculations of The Other (bold mine). They don't say who The Other is but they do lavish praise on those who want to eject The Other on the same page. Possibly I'm paranoid but this reminds me of the rhetoric of some other organisations in "West Asia" whose goals include the obliteration of a certain people. Happy to be proven wrong if they clarify their position elsewhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alaexis (talk • contribs) 1919:52, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Is https://www.flaginstitute.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/ICV27-E7-Zhao.pdf a reliable source for info about the mongol empire?

Recently I was trying to see if I could get the battle standard of the mongol empire (The sulde) onto the page. I found this source that was completely in my favor, but I can't tell if it's reliable or not. Sci Show With Moh (talk) 02:26, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

No. The institute is a membership based charity, not an academic institution. The presentations are by amateurs, with no indication of editorial oversight, and this particular presentation is described by an attendee and fellow presenter as merely conjectural.[51] Banks Irk (talk) 03:14, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Okay, good to know. Sci Show With Moh (talk) 03:25, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I would make a distinction between member reports presented to the society and authoritative works such as Flying Flags in the United Kingdom which are creations of the institute itself. Member reports presented by subject matter experts would likely be usable, but ones presented by amateurs would not be. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Is the Charles Fort institute website a reliable source for academic information?

I am currently searching for reliable sources that have info on the Mongol Banners (tugs). I found an article on the Charles Fort Institute website about this very topic (https://forums.forteana.org/index.php?threads/the-spirit-banner-of-genghis-khan.69644/) and I want to know if I can use it. Sci Show With Moh (talk) 12:57, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Trying to view that link gives the message that my IP address is banned. That's interesting; so far as I know I've never been to that website, let alone interacted with it. A link to a forum for an institute presumably associated with Charles Fort doesn't inspire confidence. Mackensen (talk) 13:05, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

That is not an article, that is a discussion forum, so we cannot assume there is editorial control for factual correctness. This makes it a self-published source. Such sources can be used for statements not about living people so long as the self who is publishing it is an acknowledged expert in the relevant field. In this case, the post is from "MrRING: Android Futureman", so you might understand my dubiousness as to the level of established expertise. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 14:38, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, even if we ignore the forum/self-published aspects here, I can't imagine what that could possibly be useful for. It looks like there's plenty of random speculation ("Another place where the banner could have been hidden is right under the monastery. ... Anyway, it wouldn't surprise me if there are other, larger caves in the area and if someone took the opportunity to hide relics there.") and stories told second hand without sufficient information to possibly corroborate ("My guide, a Western expat, had once climbed its slopes and had had an unexpected "accident" there. She broke an arm or leg. Her Mongolian friends immediately took her away, and insisted she never go back, because the place was taboo.") This is completely unusable as a source. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 16:55, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

FrontView Magazine

Is this article in FrontView Magazine a reliable source to support the statement in Berman Brothers (producers) that The Berman Brothers have received a Grammy Award for the Baha Men's "Who Let the Dogs Out" in 2001? I can't see anything on the magazine's website about its journalistic policy, and there is no byline. I can see it has been used about 40 times in en.wiki as a reference in music articles. Thanks. Tacyarg (talk) 20:09, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

That would be a problem, as the official Grammy website lists the Baha Men, not the producers, as the Grammys for individual recordings go to the musician (producers are listed for the album awards, and "song of the year" is for the songwriter.) Additionally, that FrontView page appears to be a press release, given that the text that starts off the article is attached to songs from the album it discusses on YouTube. As a press release, it falls into self-published source territory, which means it can't be used for boastful claims about the source... and claiming the winning of a Grammy is indeed boastful. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 20:45, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. I've taken the claim out of the article. Tacyarg (talk) 22:09, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

MakeUseOf

This source was brought up in an AfD discussion. The specific reference link is here. There was a previously discussion at RSN but I do not really see a consensus in that discussion. It is currently being cited over 400 times in Wikipedia so hoping we can get a consensus in this discussion. It has an editorial policy, but also allows contributors and sponsored posts (note the example they show of a sponsored post is not marked as sponsored). I also see a lot of disclaimers, including on the specific reference link above, that claims "Readers like you help support MUO. When you make a purchase using links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission." CNMall41 (talk) 07:37, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I have little confidence in the reliability of MakeUseOf and its usefulness on Wikipedia, seeing as its content mainly consists of how-to guides and listicles. As a Valnet-owned property, MakeUseOf's fact-checking policy is heavily similar to those of sister sites Screen Rant and Game Rant, except that it doesn't include a section on "Checking for Official Comment" like them; it also doesn't list its staff on its about page, which both sister sites (SR, GR) provide. I additionally found many of the authors' bios to be too vague in sufficiently asserting their credentials and experience (example here). Ultimately, I would mark MakeUseOf as unreliable, extending the status to its pre-Valnet work as well; a Wayback Machine snapshot from 2018 shows that the site didn't even have an editorial or fact-checking policy despite providing a list of its staff on its about page then. CascadeUrbanite (talk) 09:22, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

PesticideInfo for non-BMI

References to pesticideinfo.org have been removed from articles (mainly) due to its characterization as a "Generally unreliable source" in the widely used user script User:Headbomb/unreliable.js. For non-BMI, this judgement is unfounded and actually contradicts the evidence:

• Assessment of toxicological databases: PAN Pesticides Database met the inclusion criteria and ranked in the midfield of the evaluated 21 databases
• Arizona Department of Agriculture: This environmental group maintains a pesticide database that presents current toxicity and regulatory information. Notable features: sources for information (including EPA) completely transparent; site is very easy to navigate.
• Statements by provider: Sources & Methodology, About

pesticideinfo.org has been listed in Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine/Toxicology task force#Tools / Resources for 13 years. Moreover, there is a Wikidata property (PesticideInfo chemical ID; no opposing votes to the proposal).
In my view, the tabs Ecotoxicity, Usage and Regulation may be generally usable. On the other hand, the content of the tab Health should not be used per WP:MEDRS. To get an impression of the database, you may want to have a look at some example entries (nonanoic acid, paraquat dichloride).
In conclusion, I would like to propose that pesticideinfo.org is no longer considered a "Generally unreliable source", but a generally reliable source for non-BMI content. Leyo 11:18, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

For anyone interested the last discussion appears to be Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 257#Compendium of Pesticide Common Names. The main concern in that thread is that pesticideinfo.org is a work from Pesticide Action Network a group that advocate for alternatives to pesticides. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:38, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Concur. If that's the only source then something's up. Bon courage (talk) 12:02, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

@ActivelyDisinterested: That's why the NGO has been putting resources into the development and the update of this database. There is no evidence that the content of the database is biased. I'd guess that for the NGO, it is important that this database is perceived as reliable to actually be used by other stakeholders. The same would of course apply to an industry database. --Leyo 12:12, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Just one point on it is important that this database is perceived as reliable to actually be used by other stakeholders, it's not Wikipedia job to help improve the perception of the database.
If it meets the standard of a reliable source it should be used, if it doesn't it shouldn't, but anything else isn't an important factor. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:47, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Of course, I didn't mean it in the way that Wikipedia should do anything. I gave the reason why they strive for an unbiased, reliable database. --Leyo 14:38, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Seems to be some misunderstanding of my comment, I was just highlighting the last discussion as the header and edit notice ask you to do when opening a new discussion. I'm not stating any opinion on the source itself. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:42, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Concerning If that's the only source then something's up.: As detailed in Sources & Methodology, the data is available in the original (many) sources, too. However, the data from multiple sources is compiled in the PesticideInfo database. For example, in the tab Regulation, there is information on the regulatory status internationally, in the U.S., in California as well as on allowable residue levels in various regions. --Leyo 15:42, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Of the 48 reviews of NewsNation, 4 are press releases & 17 from NewsNation or its owner

Is that reasonable? I tagged it for too many primary and selfpublished sources as well as needing 3rd party sources, they were almost immediately removed by User:Vjmlhds with the edit summary "Honestly, there are no real issues with the sources. All legit media news outlets, and there is no better source to tell you what a TV network telecasts than the network itself". I see that List of programs broadcast by NewsNation has had an OR tage for for about 15 years. Doug Weller talk 12:13, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

@Doug Weller For innocuous, non-controversial information such as broadcasted programmes or company personnel, primary sources are okay. However, if half the sources in an article are primary, it brings up another question: how notable is all of that? E.g. the "Evening news programming" subsection has a whole two sources, and both are primary. Unless someone can provide non-primary sources, this indicates that their evening news programming isn't independently notable, and that the section should be deleted. In fact, that goes for the whole "Programming" section, which has only one non-primary source. Cortador (talk) 14:35, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Is eurasian-defence.ru a reliable source?

I've been trying to find a reliable source for a Major General who was commander of the Uzbek Airforce and I came across this source. It is The Center for Military-Political Research (CVPR) at Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs. The article currently under deletion discussion.

Machine-generated text at ScienceDirect used as source

An alarming number of articles (over 1000) currently contain some links to www.sciencedirect.com/topics/, which is a collection of machine-generated pages. Not only machine-generated text isn't a valid source, but referencing such an URL obscures the real source of a piece of information. It's like adding a claim to a medical article and referencing it to "somewhere between the third and the fifth corridor in the medicine section in the library", or "the computer told me", or "an AI thinks so". Nemo 23:38, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Recently discussed last month: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_417#Elsevier_topics_again. I agree that something needs to be done here. Maybe adding auto-reversion to additions would be a good idea. Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:52, 29 November 2023 (UTC)