Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard: Difference between revisions
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==Menahem Lonzano== |
==Menahem Lonzano== |
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{{DRN archive top|Improperly filed. — [[User:TransporterMan|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS; color:blue; font-variant:small-caps;">'''TransporterMan'''</span>]] ([[User talk:TransporterMan|<font face="Trebuchet MS" size="1">TALK</font>]]) 15:37, 25 August 2011 (UTC)}} |
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The making of this request would appear to violate [[User:Chesdovi|Chesdovi's]] topic ban [[User_talk:Chesdovi#Topic_ban|here]] [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive92#Chesdovi|background here]] against editing "all articles, discussions, and other content related to the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly construed across all namespaces". Chesdovi's [[User_talk:Chesdovi#Joseph.27s_Tomb_2|interpretation]] of this ban to mean only those articles, discussions, and other content ''specifically about'' that conflict is currently the subject of a new request for arbitration enforcement against him [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Chesdovi|here]]. If that request should be determined in his favor, then he should feel free to relist this discussion here, but until then I am going to close it as improperly filed. — [[User:TransporterMan|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS; color:blue; font-variant:small-caps;">'''TransporterMan'''</span>]] ([[User talk:TransporterMan|<font face="Trebuchet MS" size="1">TALK</font>]]) 15:35, 25 August 2011 (UTC) |
The making of this request would appear to violate [[User:Chesdovi|Chesdovi's]] topic ban [[User_talk:Chesdovi#Topic_ban|here]] [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive92#Chesdovi|background here]] against editing "all articles, discussions, and other content related to the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly construed across all namespaces". Chesdovi's [[User_talk:Chesdovi#Joseph.27s_Tomb_2|interpretation]] of this ban to mean only those articles, discussions, and other content ''specifically about'' that conflict is currently the subject of a new request for arbitration enforcement against him [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Chesdovi|here]]. If that request should be determined in his favor, then he should feel free to relist this discussion here, but until then I am going to close it as improperly filed. — [[User:TransporterMan|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS; color:blue; font-variant:small-caps;">'''TransporterMan'''</span>]] ([[User talk:TransporterMan|<font face="Trebuchet MS" size="1">TALK</font>]]) 15:35, 25 August 2011 (UTC) |
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==IOUF -- re: Gulabe Kothari== |
==IOUF -- re: Gulabe Kothari== |
Revision as of 15:37, 25 August 2011
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Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN) | ||||||||||||
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This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN.
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Case | Created | Last volunteer edit | Last modified | ||||
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Title | Status | User | Time | User | Time | User | Time |
Neith | In Progress | Potymkin (t) | 27 days, 9 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 6 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 6 hours |
Defense of Sihang Warehouse | New | Adachi1939 (t) | 8 days, 11 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 2 days, 15 hours | Adachi1939 (t) | 2 days, 11 hours |
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Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 02:46, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
Example case
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Spore (2008 video game) (Example case)(Example post)
DiscussionResolutionThe dispute at hand seems to be to me that there are multiple possible genres to the article, and many sources backing up the different genres, however the issue of which genre best fits is still an issue. A mediation cabal case might be useful here, the assistance of a third party editor could assist in working out a compromise that works well. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... |
Heroes in Hell, Gilgamesh in the Outback
![]() | Consensus reached for use of language suggested by Dokzap or, if not, discussion on that point has, at best, stalled. Other issues should be discussed on article talk pages or at the ANI discussion. — TransporterMan (TALK) 01:07, 22 August 2011 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000
Dispute overview
- Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?
I created an image gallery of the people on the President's Working Group on Financial Markets, including a scanned copy of their 1999 report on OTC Derivatives. Wizardman deleted this gallery. I restored it. He deleted it again. We exchanged messages on our talk pages. We disagree about the importance and/or appropriateness of the gallery. There may also be an issue with one of the 5 gallery pictures is a placeholder as there are no easily obtainable free images out there yet of one of the PWG members.
Users involved
- Who is involved in the dispute? (Make sure you let them know you have posted here)
Resolving the dispute
- Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?
We exchanged talk page messages.
- How do you think we can help?
Decide if the content is appropriate, and whether it benefits the article or not.
Decora (talk) 00:27, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000 discussion
Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
I don't think zero posts on the talk page and a single user talk message entitled "Notice of intent to file arbitration dispute" can be reasonably construed as an attempt to resolve the dispute.
- what kind of discussion could have been possible? he deleted the edits several times with no explanation, ("cleanup") and when i ask for an explanation, he basically said that the gallery was 'palceholders', something that i dont even understand, because only one of the 5 was a placeholder. not sure what more i am supposed to do before coming here. Decora (talk) 02:49, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
But since we're here anyway, galleries are generally frowned upon, since they tend to be unnecessary and to clutter the page. This particular gallery does not, to me, appear to be a good use of images; the people pictured aren't even mentioned in the text and what they look like isn't relevant to the article. The gallery is also not well conceived: one of the members lacks a photograph, and one isn't a person at all. It appears that you might be confused about how sources are used at Wikipedia. A pdf does not have to be linked to as an image to be used as a source. Usually the citation of a document links to an online version of that document. The proper method of citing sources is described here. So list the members in the text and cite the report like one would with any other source document. Danger (talk) 02:07, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
- the people are, in fact, mentioned in the article numerous times. the whole article is about the arguments they made and the results of their work. Every time the articles references 'the PWG', it is referencing those four people - but there are no pictures of them in the article. The one man does not have a picture, but the same was true of the 1933 German Election page for several years, until someone added the missing pictures of the other candidates. the picture of the document is not a citation, it is a picture of the report they produced, the report that heavily influenced the creation of CFMA, and a report that is heavily referenced in the text of the article. Just as an article about a book might have a picture of the book, or a film would have a picture of the one sheet, or an article about a painting would have a copy of the painting, or an article about the nuremburg laws would have scans of the laws, or articles about the wannsee confereence has scans of the conference notes. it is illustration, not reference Decora (talk) 02:49, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
- Ah, I misunderstood your intentions regarding the report scan. It's true that articles about artistic works usually include an image of the work. However, the report is not an artistic work and there's nothing distinctive about its appearance. Further, as far as I can tell, it is not the subject of the article. It might be appropriate to insert an image as normal (i.e. not in a gallery) in the article, but it certainly shouldn't be in a gallery of the members of the PWG. Regarding the images of the members, it might be appropriate to include images of individual members if their actions–as individuals, not the group as a whole–are discussed in the text. Otherwise they seem to be just decorative. --Danger (talk) 03:34, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
- If a gallery seems necessary, I'm sure there's a way to make it without needing to add the placeholder. Having the pictures of those members split up throughout the article could help the article read better, since it is quite long. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 19:01, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
- Decora, is splitting the gallery into individual images distributed through the article an acceptable solution for you? --Danger (talk) 22:18, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000 resolution
Nazism
Dispute overview
- Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?
An editor (Darkstar1st), occasionally joined by others, is intentionally soapboxing and trying to destroy the integrity of both the article and the talk page, filling it up with obscure theories, non-RS comments, cherry-picked sentences taken out of context, and then deleting the actual RS in the article. When confronted on this, he talks in circles, and apparently does not understand the concepts of RS or Wikipedia in general, even though he's been a member for some time. I've had enough with him...as he is clinging to these wacky ideas that Nazism=Left Socialism...which is completely opposite of the accepted scholarly view of pretty much every educated person on the planet. He obviously has an agenda, and will not stop until there is some kind of "intervention." I've never had to ask for help like this before...but things are getting way out of hand.
Users involved
- Who is involved in the dispute? (Make sure you let them know you have posted here)
- Darkstar1st (talk · contribs)
- Bryonmorrigan (talk · contribs)
- TFD (talk · contribs)
- Saddhiyama (talk · contribs)
One user noted that Darkstar1st is also doing this in other related pages, such as Strasserism.
- Andy Dingley (talk · contribs)
- I'm probably the user who noted the Strasserism issue. These articles aren't my usual turf, but in less than a day I've already seen some relentless POV-pushing by Darkstar1st, with cherry-picking of words from sources and no account of their context or meaning. It's not an impressive sight. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:37, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
Resolving the dispute
- Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?
Both I, as well as TFD and Saddhiyama, have attempted to discuss these issues with him, but he is both unwilling and frankly...possibly "unable" to act in a rational manner.
- How do you think we can help?
Anything would be great. He's ruining the work of a lot of people, and wasting all of our time by making us go through and undo all of his edits.
Bryonmorrigan (talk) 20:09, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
Nazism discussion
Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
- I have come across Darkstar1st in the past. In this case he is persuaded that nazism is a form of socialism and has set up multiple discussion threads across a number of articles and presented numerous sources, none of which he has apparently read, that he believes supports his views. With his lengthy experience, he is aware of Wikipedia policy yet chooses to ignore it and waste the time of other editors. TFD (talk) 21:03, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
- Nazism *is* a form of socialism. This is a historical and ideological fact. The article clearly states this several times, so this can hardly be what the dispute is really about. --OpenFuture (talk) 02:33, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
- No. This is 'fact' according to some ideologies. If the article states this as fact, it is wrong. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:42, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
- No, it is fact, full stop. Sorry. Seems like a dogmatic Darkstar1st has run into some dogmatic socialists that doesn't like the truth. This is as such not a content dispute but a failure of people to compromise because of dogmaticism from all sides. The best resolution here would probably be a topic ban for all of you, but I doubt that is going to happen. --OpenFuture (talk) 02:55, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
- I think we'd need to go to sources. The National Socialist Party is considered by the sources with which I am familiar a fascist rather that socialist organization, but I would not be surprised if other sources disagree. --Nuujinn (talk) 03:24, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
- I think that OpenFuture misunderstands the problem. 'Socialism' isn't a fact, it is an ideology (an idea in people's heads). There are no 'facts' regarding socialism beyond the fact that people believe in the concept - or don't. 'Truth' doesn't come into it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:37, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
- Fascism is also sprung out of socialism. I think I have understood the problem spot on. Dogmatic people with opposing dogmaticisms, who all are right in some way, and therefore refuses to listen to the other side, who are also right in some way. Start listening to each other and you'll undoubtedly come to a consensus. It is as factual as any social science issue can be, but yes it is of course possible to view tat as not being factual at all, you are right. --OpenFuture (talk) 03:47, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
- How exactly is that supposed to help anyone "come to a consensus"? Insisting that anyone who disagrees with you is 'dogmatic' is hardly a constructive approach. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:59, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
- Right, so stop doing that, is what I'm saying, and start listening to each other instead, as both sides here have valid points. --OpenFuture (talk) 07:34, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
- How exactly is that supposed to help anyone "come to a consensus"? Insisting that anyone who disagrees with you is 'dogmatic' is hardly a constructive approach. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:59, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
- Fascism is also sprung out of socialism. I think I have understood the problem spot on. Dogmatic people with opposing dogmaticisms, who all are right in some way, and therefore refuses to listen to the other side, who are also right in some way. Start listening to each other and you'll undoubtedly come to a consensus. It is as factual as any social science issue can be, but yes it is of course possible to view tat as not being factual at all, you are right. --OpenFuture (talk) 03:47, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
- I think that OpenFuture misunderstands the problem. 'Socialism' isn't a fact, it is an ideology (an idea in people's heads). There are no 'facts' regarding socialism beyond the fact that people believe in the concept - or don't. 'Truth' doesn't come into it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:37, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
- I think we'd need to go to sources. The National Socialist Party is considered by the sources with which I am familiar a fascist rather that socialist organization, but I would not be surprised if other sources disagree. --Nuujinn (talk) 03:24, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
- No, it is fact, full stop. Sorry. Seems like a dogmatic Darkstar1st has run into some dogmatic socialists that doesn't like the truth. This is as such not a content dispute but a failure of people to compromise because of dogmaticism from all sides. The best resolution here would probably be a topic ban for all of you, but I doubt that is going to happen. --OpenFuture (talk) 02:55, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
- The idea that Socialism=Fascism or that Fascism/Nazism is in any way connected to the Left...is nothing but pseudohistorical gibberish, and is not accepted or promoted by any reputable sources. It's a modern Newspeak myth created by uneducated American Conservative talk show hosts to redefine the worst villains of the Far Right as being "really" Left-Wing, and is not even remotely applicable to Wikipedia standards. It would be funny if people weren't so gullible as to believe this kind of nonsense, which is comparable to Holocaust Denial. Bryonmorrigan (talk) 05:22, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
- And regardless of the indisputable fact of DarkStar1st being completely wrong in terms of history and politics...what he's done to the page, and also the talk page, is inexcusable, and a clear violation of a multitude of Wikipedia rules. These rules have been pointed out to him, but he continues to spam up the talk page with mountains of cherry-picked, irrelevant nonsense, treating it like a forum, and trying to drown out any dissent to his obscene conspiracy theories. Bryonmorrigan (talk) 05:28, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
- 1. I thought the point was that Nazism is connected to socialism, not that Nazism is connected to "left". Those are different concepts. 2. If Darkstar1st is such a horrible vandal, what is this doing here? Start an RFC or an Arbcom case or something. This is for helping to settle disputes, not dealing with vandals or disruptive editors. I'm not sure where is best though, although it sounds like you need an RFC. --OpenFuture (talk) 07:34, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
- No. This is 'fact' according to some ideologies. If the article states this as fact, it is wrong. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:42, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
- Nazism *is* a form of socialism. This is a historical and ideological fact. The article clearly states this several times, so this can hardly be what the dispute is really about. --OpenFuture (talk) 02:33, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
This is what happens when an editor is enamored of a particular source and demands to use it regardless of logic. Hayek's book was highly controversial even at the time (see this critical review for an example) and has very few supporters today. If the article has a section for discussing unorthodox viewpoints, it is not impossible that Hayek could be mentioned. However, citing him as a source of fact in the starting paragraphs is completely unacceptable. WP:FRINGE and WP:WEIGHT both apply. Zerotalk 06:23, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
The issue is related to misuse of reliable sources in a large number of political articles, and the fault is not only on the side of Darkstar. When "quoting out of context" is used by one side, it is bad, by another side it is good, there is a continuing problem on many articles on Wikipedia. The issue of "fringe" is also a continuing problem, indeed, but in many articles, and this article is by far from the most problematic. Cheers. Collect (talk) 07:52, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
I don't want to comment on Darkstar1st's behaviour as I have not been paying attention to his specific edits. What I would like to do is give some more general comments concerning the problems we have on these articles.
For as long as I have been vaguely keeping an eye on some articles related to Fascism and Nazism I have been seeing a regular stream of IP editors and disposable accounts who take it as almost axiomatic that Nazism, and sometimes also fascism, are of the political left. The root of their apparent belief seems to be a non-mainstream understanding of the nature of the concepts of left and right in politics from which they extrapolate their line on Nazism by a mixture of non-mainstream sources and outright original research. Admittedly the concepts of left and right have shifted throughout the history of their use and are not perfectly defined. There is legitimate disagreement on their precise definitions and usage but this attempted radical redefinition of left and right, which turns established usage on its head, is not part of that legitimate disagreement.
The editors pushing the POV have been, as far as I can tell, almost exclusively from the USA and it seems to me that there is a deliberate programme of language change going on there which does not seem to be a natural language shift but one driven by an American right wing political agenda. The agenda is to reassign all odious historical movements of the right to the left so that the left is tainted and the right gets to cover itself in flowers and kittens and never admit that it has a dark side, just as all things have. Wikipedia is not meant to be at the vanguard of language change, particularly not one that seeks to encode political assumptions into the language and render existing terminology useless/meaningless in a manner comparable to Orwell's Newspeak. The one thing I have found very hard to work out with the hit and run editors is whether we can assume good faith with them. Are these editors aware that they are engaging in propaganda or have they simply never read any mainstream history about Fascism and Nazism until they stumble over it on Wikipedia? Is somebody pointing them in our direction? The steady stream of IP editors makes me wonder. Each one turns up pushing the same arguments as the last, has the consensus explained to them on the talk page, argues for a bit and then melts away to be replaced by another IP editor. It is a bit of a Groundhog Day experience and it consumes time that we could be spending on more productive things. Intentional or not, it is disruptive to Wikipedia. Looking at this from the outside, in the UK, it is all very bemusing.
It is interesting to see some longstanding editors making similar points. I am happy to assume good faith with them although that doesn't stop me regarding OpenFuture's comments above as very fundamentally mistaken. I don't want to pick him apart line by line but he is entirely wrong to suggest that those who disagree with him are all "dogmatic socialists". Mainstream thinkers on the right recognise Nazism and Fascism as the darkest side of the right but as the left has learned to accept that Stalinism and Maoism are the darkest side of the left. I respect his right to hold a non-mainstream opinion but he should read WP:TRUTH.
The line on Nazism, which I was taught at school and which is followed by mainstream academics of varying political hues, is that Fascism and Nazism are of the right although they also incorporated some elements from the left. This the line taken by the Nazism article (except when it is being messed up) and is the line it should continue to take as its main thrust, unless academic consensus changes, which is highly unlikely.
Notable, non-mainstream views can be included with appropriate weight but must not be over-covered or passed off as mainstream. I suggest that this is where more discussion would be productive, rather than constantly, fruitlessly, revisiting the broad thrust of the article.--DanielRigal (talk) 10:52, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
- (ec)"Mainstream views of left and right" is indeed one of the primary issues - with many current authors from Arthur Schlesinger, Jr. on averring that the "left-right spectrum" is not easily applicable to some groups. In fact, the debate about the linear spectrum is mainstream. Schlesinger, by the way, is not generally associated with the "American right." So Wikipedia should, indeed, note that the whole idea of a simple spectrum is now questioned widely, and such questioning is mainstream and not "fringe." [24], [25], [26], [27], [28], [29] and on and on. With the mainstream now questioning the use of a linear spectrum, I suggest that its emphasis be depracated. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:01, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, talking about "left" and "right" is in general pointless as it doesn't have any meaningful definitions. --OpenFuture (talk) 12:03, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
- Yet again: I agree that claiming that Nazism is on the left is complete nonsense. But that is very different from saying that it is a form of socialism. Those claims are not equal at all, and must not be treated as equal. --OpenFuture (talk) 11:57, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
- None of the sources I have read categorize nazism as form of socialism. TFD (talk) 19:49, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
- Now we have provided you with plenty of sources on the topic, which reasonably should close this. The issue here isn't the view of Nazism, but the failure to keep the debate constructive on Talk:Nazism. Darkstar1st is only one of the culprits in that failure. IMO this can be close d now. --OpenFuture (talk) 20:59, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
- You have provided no reliable sources. You seem stuck on the Communist theory that Nazism developed from German Conservatism and are confused by the fact that liberals called Conservative policies "socialist". You are even providing Lenin as a source for your opinions. TFD (talk) 01:49, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
- Now we have provided you with plenty of sources on the topic, which reasonably should close this. The issue here isn't the view of Nazism, but the failure to keep the debate constructive on Talk:Nazism. Darkstar1st is only one of the culprits in that failure. IMO this can be close d now. --OpenFuture (talk) 20:59, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
- None of the sources I have read categorize nazism as form of socialism. TFD (talk) 19:49, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
- (ec)"Mainstream views of left and right" is indeed one of the primary issues - with many current authors from Arthur Schlesinger, Jr. on averring that the "left-right spectrum" is not easily applicable to some groups. In fact, the debate about the linear spectrum is mainstream. Schlesinger, by the way, is not generally associated with the "American right." So Wikipedia should, indeed, note that the whole idea of a simple spectrum is now questioned widely, and such questioning is mainstream and not "fringe." [24], [25], [26], [27], [28], [29] and on and on. With the mainstream now questioning the use of a linear spectrum, I suggest that its emphasis be depracated. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:01, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Nazism resolution
Nsibidi, Igbo language, Efik language
- Nsibidi (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Igbo language (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Efik language (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Dispute overview
- Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?
A user is challenging whether nsibidi, an ideographic writing system, should be considered a writing system because in their opinion ideograms are not considered writing by some author or book. This is despite the fact that ideograms are considered writing here on wikipedia and on dictionary definitions; nsibidi is considered a writing system by every reliable source that is out there; there are other ideographic writing systems on wikipedia that are considered writing; and nsibidi itself has logographic elements, such as the character for the script itself.
The origin of this dispute is when the user edited the Igbo language page and, in their opinion, claimed that nsibidi should not be put into the writing systems section of the infobox because "nsibidi is not writing", when challenged about this the user went on to impose their opinions on the main article of nsibidi itself, despite editing it before all the disputes took place, back then they apparently didn't see a problem with it being called writing.
The user has used all the references they can get (2) to support their opinion that ideograms, and therefore nsibidi, are not writing. On their user talk they used a reference for nsibidi on the Igbo language page from the Smithsonian website that read:
Nsibidi is an ancient system of graphic communication indigenous to the Ejagham peoples of southeastern Nigeria and southwestern Cameroon in the Cross River region. It is also used by neighboring Ibibio, Efik and Igbo peoples. Aesthetically compelling and encoded, nsibidi does not correspond to any one spoken language. It is an ideographic script whose symbols refer to abstract concepts, actions or things and whose use facilitates communication among peoples speaking different languages.
When the user dug up this quote, they failed to read where nsibidi is described as a "script", can the readers please tell me of a script that is not considered writing? When I pointed this out, the user then dropped and forgot this reference and moved onto to a book that they had read where writing is supposed to be a certain way in the theory of the author. I didn't know wikipedia is the place to introduce new theories and opinions to argued over and disputed. I showed this user what the reliable sources defined writing as after they proceeded to describe to me what writing is, and how nsibidi could be a "writing system" but not "true writing".
First reference was Websters dictionary definition for writing which reads: "2 : something written: as a : letters or characters that serve as visible signs of ideas, words, or symbols" Just to be sure I gave wikipedias definition: "Writing is the representation of language in a textual medium through the use of a set of signs or symbols (known as a writing system). It is distinguished from illustration, such as cave drawing and painting, and non-symbolic preservation of language via non-textual media, such as magnetic tape audio." I explained that a body of symbols which includes a symbol for the name of the system itself is not cave drawing or illustration. The person started talking about road signs and 'no parking signs' being considered writing if nsibidi is considered writing, which is nonsense as road signs aren't used by the society to record their stories, court cases, and family matters.
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/00/Ikpe_nsibidi.jpg/200px-Ikpe_nsibidi.jpg)
All the points I have raised differentiating nsibidi from road signs can be argued, but on the nsibidi page there is this symbol: which was recorded with the specific name "Etak Ntaña Nsibidi" by Elphinstone Dayrell in 1910, just like the sign/symbol/character for nsibidi, and just like hundreds of others in these early 20th century MAN journals that were recorded with Cross River languages. I do not know a road sign in which its existence is to be linked to a specific word, unless there is, of course, writing on them, which many of them have. Again, why would a system like nsibidi have signs such as tortoise, such as sex, such as chief, killed, kill, will kill, solitary man, talk, and others, and place them side by side in order to narrate a story but are just 'road signs', are road signs known to be used to record court cases or love stories and letters? If so they should be investigated to see whether they are writing. The last issue with this comparison to road signs is with the numerical system of nsibidi, nsibidi has symbols that are used for counting which are similar to Roman numerals, (all these are in the references), road signs do not have separate symbols from the Hindu-Arabic numerals to describe numbers, unless I have missed something. Nsibidi was taught in schools also known as nsibidi houses, which is explained in the article (although the article is at its early stages). Every source on nsibidi describes it either as a script or writing system, so why should wikipedia be different because of a users opinion? Isn't this supposed to be an encyclopaedia and not a debating website?
The other issue is with the Igbo language article where the user has removed nsibidi as a writing system (alongside a Latin based orthography), and the user has resorted to redundant edits that do not have any solid reason. The user has claimed that it is not enough for the Igbo language infobox to name the standard form of Igbo as simply Igbo Izugbe (Standard Igbo), but would have to name the dialects that it is based off. The article itself explains the creation of Standard Igbo and all the user needs to do is to read the article to see that there are dozens of dialects that have gone into Standard Igbo to make it a pan-Igbo dialect itself, which makes it impossible to name every single dialect that went into the standard form in the infobox. What is wrong in simply calling it 'Standard Igbo'? That is its name as it is not a pre-existing dialect such as Standard German is.
On the Efik language, it is not and never will be the same language as Ibibio, they are closely related, yes, and they are under a dialect continuum that is named 'Efik', Ibibio itself is not a dialect of the Efik language, it is a language of the Efik language family, and this is because the Efik language, although a minority, became the dominant language of trade and was therefore attributed to the Ibibio-Anaang, et. al. The user is simply wrong in classifying Ibibio and Anaang and other languages in the Efik language family as a dialect of Efik. Please click this link to understand. As you can see the Efik language itself is under the Efik language family; Ibibio itself has its own dialects. The ironic thing about all this is that the user corrected me in the Igbo language article when I listed some Igboid languages as Igbo dialects, and the user is insisting on doing the same thing here on the Efik language and adding 'dubious' tags all over the article. There are even external arguments as to whether this family should be called Efik, or if Efik itself is even a dialect of Ibibio. Before challenging me on this I want someone to provide a reliable source apart from the highly flawed ethnologue that describes Ibibio as a dialect of Efik. This is completely ridiculous and can cause controversy across the communities. How can Efik that is argued to be from Ibibio be the parent language of Ibibio? The problem with all this is that much of this information has been taken from tertiary sources such as ethnologue and other encyclopaedia's. It's either all the languages under Efik as ethnologue describes are separated and the name for the group is explained as disputed, or the languages are considered dialects of the Efik-Ibibio-Anaang-Ukwa languages, instead of the controversial 'Efik'.
Users involved
- Who is involved in the dispute? (Make sure you let them know you have posted here)
Resolving the dispute
- Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?
Yes, and it has led to 'dubious tags'. It has been discussed here, here, and here.
- How do you think we can help?
By relying on reliable resources for facts and not on opinion or new theories.
Ukabia - talk 19:40, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Nsibidi, Igbo language, Efik language discussion
Yes, the solution is to follow RS's. Ukabia seems to be of the opinion that WP is a RS, and that, for example, Daniels & Bright, The World's Writing Systems, is 'opinion'. Ukabia is also engaging in OR: since Chinese and cuneiform are ideographic, and writing, therefore nsibidi, which is ideographic, must also be writing—either not understanding what 'ideographic' means, or the nature of Chinese and cuneiform. Daniels & Bright, and from what I remember other sources, are clear that in order to be considered a writing system, it must be able to represent language, so that a third party can read back a text (assuming they know the language). International pictorial icons used in the West therefore do not count as writing. Yukaghir love letters do not count as writing. Aztec and Zapotec codices do not count (though Mayan does). The Vinca "script" ("Old European") does not count. We speak of "civilization" being founded on the invention of writing, and philologists argue about whether it was the Sumerians or Egyptians who invented it. But ideographic systems existed all over the world, and long before Sumeria and Egypt. "Prehistory" is the time before writing. Using Ukabia's understanding, there is no prehistory.
Ukabia is correct about one thing, however: we do speak of other pictographic/ideographic systems as "writing", using a perhaps less strict definition of writing than we should. Editors have in the past tried to exaggerate nsibidi (that it's 5000 years old, etc.), which is why I've been strict with that article (we don't have Aztec or Yukaghir nationalists trying to exaggerate those "scripts"), but IMO it should be treated the same as these other systems. Note that there are dozens of such systems in use across Africa (which volumes on writing systems don't bother to cover), and there used to be in other parts of the world (and maybe still are). I think this is perhaps s.t. for Wikiprojects writing systems to discuss. — kwami (talk) 21:51, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
As for Ibibio/Efik, some sources consider these a single language, some separate languages. Efik is a variety of Ibibio in the broad sense, but because of its cultural importance (it was chosen as the literary standard), the whole tends to be called 'Efik' rather than 'Ibibio', as Ukabia notes. Some call the Dachsprache 'Ibibio-Efik' to avoid the politics of choosing one or the other. I think this has been happening since the 60s. There have been disputes about this article before, and it has been moved back & forth between the names, but most of the complaints (from both sides) have involved rants and unilateral moves rather than intelligent discussion. It may be a good idea to split the article, though it contains so little info I'm not sure that is justified, but even if we do the debate over what to call the main article will probably continue (Ukabia says it's 'Efik', others say it's 'Ibibio', etc). — kwami (talk) 01:36, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
I said that Chinese and Cuneiform came from ideograms and still have many ideograms in them, if these early ideograms were considered the beginning of writing, then how are ideograms not writing, it doesn't make sense. I did not say Cuneiform and Chinese are ideograms. We've already had a discussion on the Writing system project talk page and a user (Christoph Päper) has already explained that the definition of writing varies among linguists and that ideograms very often are considered writing with some conditions:
Linguists (e.g. DeFrancis 1989) tend to equate writing with glottography, i.e. only if a set of symbols and rules is able to record any and every human language completely it is truly writing. A system that is restricted (not only in practice, but also in theory) to a limited set of languages, e.g. just one, is sometimes also considered writing. Also, since the line is often hard to draw, many scholars include pictographic or ideographic symbols under the notion of writing, if (and only if) they’re retained in a later writing system, e.g. Sumerian cuneiform was only used for labeling in the beginning.
Scientists from other disciplines, including paleography, typography, philosophy and more, as well as laypeople often have a laxer interpretation of the term writing. Famous cases of “semasiography” in question are, for instance, the Yukaghir love letter and the 53$ money order from Turtle-Following-His-Wife (cf. Sampson 198x). Rogers (2005) mentions Bliss as the only semantic writing system and IPA etc. as phonetic writing systems, but others would disagree.
Sometimes a linear sequence of symbols is considered necessary for writing, so no complex 2D structures.
The reliance on one source does not change dictionary definitions of writing. The reliance on one source does not change wikipedias countless references of ideograms as writing. On the same talk page I went further to explain logographic uses of the nsibidi script and how authors who recorded them described some as "names written", and went further to give native words for them like door, love, and Etak Ntaña. The user has not explained why there are specific words used for some 'characters', yes characters as Macgregor has described them. Bear in mind, ideograms whether 'true writing' or not, are still considered writing systems.
"But ideographic systems existed all over the world, and long before Sumeria and Egypt." None of them have a glyph for the name of the writing system itself described as "written" or names written in them with their original symbols.
"Note that there are dozens of such systems in use across Africa (which volumes on writing systems don't bother to cover), and there used to be in other parts of the world (and maybe still are)." There is no reliable source that claims these symbols to be writing. I've already given a source that compared nsibidi to a uli graphics and they were differentiated as writing and motifs. Every source in the nsibidi article notes nsibidi as a 'script' or 'writing system', but this is only up for debate because of your opinion with the excuse of one dubious edit that was undisputed and even had a source. You claim that I am practicing original research, yet you're the one using an authors definition of writing to negate the works of other authors who have studied nsibidi, yet the author you talk about didn't mention nsibidi once in their book, again you resort to original research by claiming this is a sign nsibidi is not writing. The nsibidi article isn't the only article on wikipedia where mistakes have been made, especially at stub level, there are featured articles with fallacies. Holding on to this past event has nothing to do with facts now. Can anyone show us any of the systems across Africa that early 20th century missionaries described its use as "that of ordinary writing" and that are still considered scripts? My guess is that there are none. Ukabia - talk 14:03, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
I just want to make it clear that this is not an issue of whether nsibidi is "true writing" or not, but if nsibidi is a writing system. There are no arguments against nsibidi being a writing system. Ukabia - talk 15:43, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
- Some references to nsibidi over some years
1968 "I have already mentioned various West African devices for transmission of thought (p. 7 f. and 11). Nsibidi or Nchibiddi or Nchibiddy seems to be the only true 'ideographic' script of the West African natives (Fig. 9.7)."
- The alphabet: a key to the history of mankind, Volume 1. David Diringer (1968). Pg. 106.
1977 "The nsibidi signs used by secret societies in various language groups in southern Nigeria, eg the Igbo, Efik, and Ekoi, have been considered by some to be of a similar pictographic nature, but others have maintained it is true writing, based on either a logographic or syllabary system. Although nsibidi signs were first discovered by TD Maxwell as early as 1904, published accounts remain fragmentary and the available evidence seems insufficient to decide the matter one way or another. Adams adds an interesting detail that might be mentioned, viz. that the Arochuku people of this same general area and probably users of nsibidi, sent messages between villages by painting them on the bodies of the messengers themselves" [it has since been established that the people of Arochukwu not only use nsibidi, but trade ukara]."
- Language in Africa: an introductory survey. Edgar A. Gregersen (1977). Pg. 176.
2000 "Formerly a ukara was not signed or marked, but one can now see in a corner of the cloth the owner's or maker's mark. There were however lodge identifications. […] It resorts to a myth remembered from the Efut by the Efik and is probably to some extent a reminiscence of an older Efik cult. Ukara is a cult object of a complex society open to external influences. […] The ownership of a ukara is of course essential for a mboko (leopard-man). In the middle of the 19th century, the missionary Waddel noted that 100 pounds sterling had to be paid to acquire the highest grade and obtain the right to wear the corresponding ukara. […] On close examination, a ukara reveals a rigorous arrangement of motives:"
The total depth of Ekpe symbolism on these cloths, although rich, cannot be entirely clarified on account of the discretion surrounding Ekpe rites and Nsibidi. (Cole & Aniakor: 1984, 61).
"Nevertheless, one can readily see that the motives function collectively like a poem in which most of the signifiers are repeated and reinforce the raison d'etre of the text and the object. […] Some are iconic and logographic, simply saying what they mean, either a proverb (the tortoise) or a text (the fish), which may be explained to the novice."
- African writing and text. Simon P. X. Battestini (2000). Pg. 148.
2007 "Prior to Arabic (ajami) writing and later franco- or anglography, Emmanuel Obiechina mentions the existence of proto-literate "ideo-diffusion" scripts like Bamum Vaï and Oberi Okaime as well as the Yoruba “Aroko“ system, Ewe ideographs and Igbo chalk marks as underdeveloped ideographs, unlike the Nsibidi script, “the only true ideographic script in West Africa,” whose development, he speculates, was arrested by the introduction of Western writing in West Africa; "Groweth of Written Literature by the introduction of Western writing in West Africa," Présence africaine 66 (1968): 58-60."
- The African palimpsest. Chantal Zabus (2007). Pg. 23. Ukabia - talk 19:18, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
Fascinating stuff indeed. As the opinion of a non-involved non admin who found much of the above TL;DR, this seems to me to be mostly a case of definitions. What is a "script", what is a "writing system", what is a "language", etc. And I agree the only way to determine that is to look for consensus in reliable sources. --OpenFuture (talk) 21:05, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
- Understood OpenFuture. I am surprised that this is considered a debatable issue partly because of the advice you've given. The dispute has turned to whether reliable sources consider ideograms writing or not, when the real focus is whether nsibidi is a writing system or not. Every source mentioning nsibidi more than suggests that it is. For this to be debatable there should be another array of reliable sources conflicting with the status of nsibidi as a writing system, or a generally noticeable debate, yet no one has brought up anything that says nsibidi is not a writing system, or that nsibidi as a writing systems itself is being debated. The only debate that seems to be going on outside wikipedia is as to what type of writing system nsibidi is as demonstrated above, whether pictographic, ideographic, logographic, syllabic or whatever else. Sources suggest that it is a mixture of pictograms, ideograms, and logograms as the nsibidi article already notes. This whole dispute seems more like the opinion of one user against reliable sources. What exactly are we looking for apart from sources to sort this dispute out? Is wikipedia not an tertiary encyclopaedia relying on published sources? Ukabia - talk 02:30, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
- I know nothing about Nsibidi, but from both of your descriptions here I get the impression that this is not an open and shut case. Based on the quotes that Ukabia has provided above it would seem that Nsibidi has some writing-system-like aspects, but based on Kwami's argument this may not be enough to qualify it as a true writing system. As always, the way to settle this one is to look to the sources. Kwami mentioned Daniels & Bright, and when I did a cursory Google search I found this book review which suggests that it is an authoritative text that cannot be easily ignored. I suspect the best wording will ultimately be something like "authoritative texts such as Daniels & Young do not classify Nsibidi as a writing system, but some scholars have suggested otherwise". However, whether my suspicion is right or not will involve finding which sources are authoritative, and how the claims are weighted in the sources. We will only really know what to put in the infobox after we have done that research first. I agree with the suggestion of talking about this at WikiProject Writing Systems - it seems like a good place to start. — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 04:56, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
We have RS's mentioning that it has been claimed that nsibidi is writing (no source is ever mentioned), but we have no RS's that it actually is writing. Ukabia is engaging in OR and synthesis, and does not understand the basics of what a writing system is. There are many systems like nsibidi around the world, and in our history of writing article we were careful not to say they were writing. (Until Ukabia added nsibidi to that article and started revert warring over the claim that it is writing.) Of course, it may turn out that nsibidi is an ideographic writing system, but since we have RS's that such a thing is not possible, that claim would require good sourcing. Or that it's not ideographic after all, despite all of the accounts that it is. Again, we require good sourcing. D&B mention 16 indigenous scripts in West Africa, and don't mention any contention: they're simply accepted as writing. Nsibidi is not. — kwami (talk) 06:17, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
- Daniels & Brights' book was not created to cancel out certain writing systems that didn't meet their criteria of writing. How are we going to talk about research and sourcing in one paragraph and then later make a conclusion based off of nothing? Its a good thing I read the review because now it seems that the section of the book that supposedly went into depth on African writing systems (and snubbed nsibidi) was actually a part of the book dedicated to "the invention of writing in modern times", focusing on the N'Ko alphabet and Vai syllabary and spending one or two paragraphs on the Bamum script and not even mentioning the Ajami script. Do we proceed to put on trial all the African scripts confined to the footnotes (like the Kpelle syllabary) or even completely absent (like the Mandombe alphabet et. al.)? What are the 16 African scripts mentioned, and how many paragraphs are they each given? This is not to talk of other scripts that may have been left out. It doesn't make sense that with all the sources describing nsibidi as writing, the authors didn't think to debunk the "myth" and ignored the maturing topic altogether, unless, of course, they didn't even mention the topic of pre-Latin African writing systems at all. Daniels & Bright would be a good source to prove nsibidi not to be writing if they had defined it themselves in a part of the book dedicated to the many pre-Latin African symbols and glyphs, instead, the reasons for its elision from the book is up for guess work. Ukabia - talk 08:34, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
- To call anything a writing system or writing we need reliable sources directly mentioning that claim. I've also emailed Daniels asking for sources but I don't know if he's around (we've corresponeded in the past).Dougweller (talk) 10:24, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
- Ok. Now I realise you only have my word that this is what Daniels says, but given that, here it is. He isn't familiar with Nsibidi but says "Ukabia is quite mistaken about the meaning of "ideographic," since Ukabia claims that Chinese and "cuneiform" have "ideographic elements." He notes, and I whole-heartedly agree, that general-purpose dictionaries are not useful sources for the meaning of technical terms. He goes on to say that "The reason for excluding ideographies from "writing" is that if you're going to include all visual semasiographic systems as "writing," you're going to need a different term for "true writing" anyway, so why not use the traditional one, instead of letting some _other_ communication system have the "exalted" term "writing" applied to it? Why does Ukabia want to call Nsibidi "writing," if it doesn't act like any other writing system? Why isn't Ukabia pleased that Nsibidi is (apparently) a semasiographic system that transcends a single language and (apparently) functions for speakers of every language in the world? (For if it's ideographic, is is not bound to any single language -- as mathematical notation is not bound to any single language but can be read off in any language that has mathematical vocabulary.)" In a 2nd email he notes that "If Dalby didn't mention it, it probably either could not possibly be confused with writing, or else is so obscure that it was unknown to the principal specialist in the field of the second half of the 20th century." Dougweller (talk) 12:02, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
- Your help is appreciated Dougweller. If you don't mind, can you please ask Daniels what he thinks (even if it's just an educated guess) of Battestini's (2000) claim that "some [nsibidi symbols] are iconic and logographic, simply saying what they mean, either a proverb (the tortoise) or a text (the fish), which may be explained to the novice.", and Elphinstone Dayrell's (1911) labelling of nsibidi symbols like "Nsibidi name written"; a label for a symbol simply named "Okereuki" (this was under a section he called Inde, probably an Igbo sub group; "Okereuki" is very likely the Igbo name Okereke, but I'll leave that to the author), the labelling of abstract glyphs with 'native' names like the bunch of bananas 'Etak Ntaña'; "The 'Nsibidi sign for welcome"; J. K. Macgregor's note on another name which was made up of two corrupted Latin letters and one generic nsibidi sign; and just the general use of logographs among all the ideograms. I say all this because it wasn't intended for this dispute to be over whether ideograms are writing systems or not, this is partly because of the way I phrased some things and how the article was worded (ideographic writing system), but the main issue is whether nsibidi is writing or not and why all the sources that note nsibidi's dynamic use as ideograms, logograms and possibly (although I doubt this myself) syllabary/mora are wrong. Ukabia - talk 16:42, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry but I'd rather not. Among other things he isn't familiar with it, and I'd rather not wear out my welcome with him. He did read this board. Dougweller (talk) 18:24, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
I've had a little more chance to look into this now, and I have to say that I agree with what Kwami has been saying all along. It is quite easy to find references to Nsibidi as a writing system, but these appear to be informal usage and generally occur in books on signs and symbolism or other non-specialist sources, rather than in specialist linguistic sources. To add to Daniels & Bright, Nsibidi also doesn't make an appearance in the three other writing system encyclopedias I found on Google Books.[30][31][32] The most telling source I found was this one, which refers to Nsibidi as a "protoliterate system":
All these scripts - the Nsibidi, the Bamum, the Vai, and the Oberi Okaime - could be regarded as protoliterate systems, in the sense in which Kramer uses the term to describe the Sumerian phase of writing in Lower Mesopotamia when writing was first invented, rather than the sense in which Goody and Watt use it to refer to the fully developed Sumerian, Egyptian or Chinese systems, which, though restricted to a relatively small proportion of the population, of an elite literati, were already being utilized for religious, administrative, and technological purposes. The Bamum, Nsibidi, and Vai scripts obviously showed considerable promise of further development, but their rather limited and local application meant that they were doomed in the face of the advancing cosmopolitan Western and Arabic scripts.
I think this all indicates that we should avoid calling Nsibidi a writing system. I suggest using something like "protoliterate system" instead. — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 23:08, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
- I'm confused. I understand why the absence of nsibidi in the books you provided could be seen to mean that the authors do not consider it writing, even when some other systems are not mentioned. What I don't understand is why nsibidi is grouped with syllabary systems in the Obiechina book while the other books consider them writing, but this book calls them protoliterate...
- But, I agree with 'protoliterate'. To put the issue of nsibidi to a rest (because there seems to be differing views as to what nsibidi is, whether from indirect sources or from its early exposure), the script should be left as saying 'nsibidi is a protoliterate system of symbols that has yet to be determined to be a system of ideograms, of logograms, or less likely a syllabary.' I don't know about "less likely" but I think this is fair because 1. all the sources mentioning it directly, (including the early documenters) describe it as a "writing system" and there apparently aren't any recent sources that deal with its status as a writing system, these same sources call it "ideographic", so we'd have to drop that as well, and 2. there is no bias in the sentence towards nsibidi being a writing system or not. This is better than saying "a set of written ideographic symbols (claimed by some to be a writing system, either logographic or even a syllabary)" for the reasons above. It's more obvious now that nsibidi hasn't been given any of the recent special attention that it needs.
- The issue of the Efik language and Igbo Standard is still open. Ukabia - talk 00:30, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
- Well, I did say that I didn't know anything about nsibidi, so I don't think I can help you regarding its relation to the other syllabary systems (at least not without doing a lot more research). I'm glad that you're happy with "protoliterate" though. Let's see what Kwami thinks of your wording suggestion. — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 01:13, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
- But what does "proto-literate" mean? He says Vai is "protoliterate", yet Vai is a true writing system (a syllabary), so evidently it has nothing to do with the nature of the script itself, which is what we're debating. We'll need to ask the writing-systems project whether they want to call systems "scripts" when they are not true writing, but meanwhile we have numerous recent sources that nsibidi is ideographic, and none that it is anything else. Even Ukabia is of the opinion that it's ideographic. "Proto-writing" would be fine: that's the term we've been using for such systems, one which is defined, and defined as precisely the kind of system our refs say that nsibidi is. — kwami (talk) 09:13, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
- I agree, we want to use defined terms, and "proto-writing" is obviously better than "proto-literate" if the former is in wide use but the latter isn't. If Ukabia is also happy with this, great. If not, I think we should take the debate to WikiProject Writing Systems as I am definitely showing my ignorance of the subject here. — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 18:05, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
- S/he placed it in the 'proto-writing' section of the history of writing article, but then insisted that we treat it as a full writing system. — kwami (talk) 10:12, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
- I agree, we want to use defined terms, and "proto-writing" is obviously better than "proto-literate" if the former is in wide use but the latter isn't. If Ukabia is also happy with this, great. If not, I think we should take the debate to WikiProject Writing Systems as I am definitely showing my ignorance of the subject here. — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 18:05, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
- Efik language
The Efik article is incorrect because it notes Ibibio, as well as other languages, as a dialect of Efik, which it is not. The issue was not whether the language family was called Efik or Ibibio, but with the Efik language being portrayed as a language of the whole of the Cross River, which it's not (an official language of Akwa Ibom State is Ibibio and not Efik for example), only the language family is conveniently called Efik because of historical reasons. The article should therefore inform readers that this is not the Efik language but the Efik language family, this will stop disputes from Ibibio language speakers who do not consider their language Efik, and rightly so, because the opposite seems to be the debating point. The page should be called Efik language family, and it should note down the languages under it, including Efik and Ibibio, as languages, not dialects. If there should be an Efik language article it should be done under the 'Efik language' which is under the Efik language family (as described by ethnologue). It is dubious to link Ibibio language to the Efik language. Ukabia - talk 14:15, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
- This is a dialect cluster variously called 'Ibibio', 'Efik', 'Ibibio-Efik', and even 'Central Lower Cross'. It's been moved around on WP; until a few months ago, it was at "Ibibio", where I had moved it some time ago, but a good case was made that "Efik" is the more appropriate name, so I moved it there. Regardless, this cluster consists of several varieties, several called 'Ibibio' and one called 'Efik'. Some sources consider these varieties of a single language (Efik is the standard variety for all of them), others that they are distinct. This is a bit like Serbian vs Croatian vs Serbo-Croatian: no matter which name we choose, someone objects that it's "oppressing" them. If we go with Ukabia's wishes, we'll simply upset someone else. AFAICT, there is no one right answer, so it's a matter of what our sources say, not what Ukabia wants to be true. — kwami (talk) 09:20, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
- Most of the disputes from native speakers are not based on the name of the language group itself, but the idea of Efik being a language that Ibibio, as well as other languages, are a dialect of. The Efik language family (or maybe Efik languages) article can explain the issue with its naming and this would be an easier way to appease the speakers. There are already external disputes, as I said, as to whether Efik is a dialect of Ibibio, but I've already said that I have no problem with the language family being called Efik, but this has to clarified to the reader. If there were to be an 'Efik language family' article and then separate pages for the languages under it then the native speakers would be happy to have their language articles pop up whenever they do a search. This issue is similar to Ikwerre of which a large amount of speakers are displeased with any classification of it as an Igbo dialect, yet there has been little controversy over it being under the Igboid languages; of course there are sources that say Ikwere is a dialect of Igbo, but this has not been a problem. Efik and Ibibio are not considered the same language in Nigeria itself (list of languages in Nigeria, Efik language family), added with the strong ethnic identities that these groups have, it would be better to give the languages a chance to be separate articles under the 'Efik language family'. Another reason to clarify the difference between the language family and Efik is for the sake of other articles, especially those dealing with history, say, for example, the Aro confederacy which historically used Igbo and Ibibio. If we have Ibibio linking to the Efik language, or imply that Ibibio is a dialect of Efik, then this will just cause a whole lot of confusion. Ukabia - talk 19:25, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
- If someone had bothered to write separate articles on Efik-proper and Ibibio-proper, that would be different. But no-one has. Lots of complaints, but no willingness to do the work required to resolve the issue. Meanwhile we have one language article, so that's the language article. And while your claim may be true, you have not provided good refs for it: Ethnologue divides varieties into 'languages' based on their requirements for scripture, which very often does not reflect what others consider separate languages. Many linguists comment that many of what E counts as 'languages' are not considered languages by anyone else. Meanwhile we have plenty of sources that treat them as a single language. There is therefore nothing wrong with presenting them that way. If you want things to be different, then write up separate articles for the various varieties of Ibibio-Efik. — kwami (talk)
- As for Igbo, we have refs, though unfortunately not very complete ones, about Igbo dialects. There are also lists of various cities, all of which are said to be "dialects", but of course they won't be equidistant. We need a dialectological account of Igbo. We have conflicting accounts of what the standard is based on; these portray a history of flitting from one dialect to another, but I suspect it may actually be that the standard has not changed, only the names for what it's based on. But it is unencyclopedic to say it's based on 'Central' Igbo, when Central Igbo is not one of the options among the dialects we list. — kwami (talk) 09:26, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
- Central Igbo is gone, Standard Igbo has taken its place. Standard Igbo isn't based on Standard Igbo, but many pre-existing dialects. I thought the "standard forms" section of the infobox is asking for the name of the standard form instead of the dialects it's based on, otherwise there are a lot of dialects that need to be added to that section, and as you said, there are already conflicting accounts of what they are. I think it's better to leave it as 'Igbo Izugbe (Standard Igbo)', and if needed add it to the dialects list, and then leave the article to expand on what it is. Ukabia - talk 19:25, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
- "Standard Igbo" is fine, as long as we define what it is. Otherwise the term is meaningless. We can explain it in the text instead of the box, but we need to explain it somewhere. Also, I rather doubt it's based on "a lot" of dialects. Apart from minor elements of vocab, very few standard languages are, and when somebody says they are (see Filipino language, which is simply standardized Tagalog, but which the govt falsely insists is based on all of the languages of the Philippines), that's usually political BS rather than reality. Igbo may be an exception, but we'd need a good ref. — kwami (talk) 10:12, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
Nsibidi, Igbo language, Efik language resolution
Kyle Bartley
Dispute overview
- Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?
There is a content disupte over whether this footballer had one or two spells at a certain club; I have directed the two users in question to the article's talk page, where I have listed my evidence and opinion, and welcomed other input - none has been forthcoming. This is degenerating into a slow, lame edit war, with neither party willing to discuss.
Users involved
- Who is involved in the dispute? (Make sure you let them know you have posted here)
- GiantSnowman (talk · contribs)
- Wicka wicka (talk · contribs)
- Johnelwaq (talk · contribs)
Resolving the dispute
- Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?
Posted (twice!) on both user's talk pages requesting comment, as well as iniating a discussion on the article talk page.
- How do you think we can help?
Encourage the editors in question to use the article talk page to reach consensus, rather than blindly reverting one another.
GiantSnowman 21:17, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
Kyle Bartley discussion
Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
It looks like Wicka wicka (talk · contribs) had made his opinion about discussions very clear. GiantSnowman 21:23, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
- I see Wicka wicka has since joined in the discussion at Talk:Kyle Bartley, so I don't think any more action is required here. I don't see this as anything more than a new user not being familiar with Wikipedia's many rules and guidelines, and I think we should try and give them the benefit of the doubt. I have left a little note on their talk page about the three-revert rule and consensus, just to make them aware of the relevant policies. Hopefully this should be enough to nudge them in the right direction. — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 13:34, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
- I had already posted on their wall about 3RR and edit-warring - which they then removed. Many thanks for posting again though, hopefully this can be sorted ASAP. GiantSnowman 15:14, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, and he has also reverted your offer of help. GiantSnowman 16:05, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
- ...aaaaand now been blocked. GiantSnowman 18:39, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
- Ah yes, I should probably have looked for that. If the edit warring continues after the block expires then we can have another think about what to do. I would suggest posting here if it's not severe or at WP:3RRN if it is. — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 20:02, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, let's monitor developments for when the block expires, which should be soon. GiantSnowman 18:17, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
- Ah yes, I should probably have looked for that. If the edit warring continues after the block expires then we can have another think about what to do. I would suggest posting here if it's not severe or at WP:3RRN if it is. — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 20:02, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
- ...aaaaand now been blocked. GiantSnowman 18:39, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, and he has also reverted your offer of help. GiantSnowman 16:05, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
- I had already posted on their wall about 3RR and edit-warring - which they then removed. Many thanks for posting again though, hopefully this can be sorted ASAP. GiantSnowman 15:14, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
Kyle Bartley resolution
User talk:mugginsx
![]() | Listing editor satisfied with clarification of policy, no further dispute. — TransporterMan (TALK) 18:19, 23 August 2011 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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List of hentai authors
Dispute overview
- Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?
The majority of the content was deleted under claims of unsourced entries.
Users involved
- Who is involved in the dispute? (Make sure you let them know you have posted here)
Resolving the dispute
- Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?
Discussed the issue in the article's discussion board and with the user on my talk section.
- How do you think we can help?
Establish if the deleted entries are sourced or otherwise.
Alucardbarnivous (talk) 01:30, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
List of hentai authors discussion
Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
Well, it looks like what TheFarix has done here is removed all the entries that are redlinks, not all the entries that are unsourced. If he had removed all the unsourced entries then there would be no list left, as there is not a single source for the whole article. What TheFarix has done is actually fairly lenient - we have strict standards for any mentions of living people on Wikipedia, as you can see if you read the page Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. Being accused of being a hentai author when you are not one could be very damaging for some people, so it's important for Wikipedia's reputation that we minimise the risk of this happening. The biographies of living persons policy that I linked to above says that "any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation". There is only one realistic way to solve this dispute in my opinion, and that is to cite every entry in the list so that they follow Wikipedia policies. If not, then I think we should reduce the size of the list even further. — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 02:41, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
List of hentai authors resolution
Zaza people
Dispute overview
- Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?
This article contains subjective POV and ethnocentric content. User:Wikisupporting added an ethnocentric point of view, which contains POV materials, using reference which does not correspond to the content #[33]. And more seriously, apart from adding POV material, the user is erasing other academically referenced sources about different theories. Another serious matter is that this user not only ignores but most importantly prevents other users editions, by erasing other objective, impartial and politically neutral academic theories about this article and engaging in edit wars, with other registered users on this. Unfortunately this user is abusing and violating Wikipedia policies, and his/her edition was restored before the Zaza people article became fully protected. Importantly that this article be able to be edited and monitored by users who are knowledgeable on this topic and non-political and neutral.
Users involved
- Who is involved in the dispute? (Make sure you let them know you have posted here)
- Wikisupporting (talk · contribs)
- Takabeg (talk · contribs)
- Van de Kemp (talk · contribs)
Resolving the dispute
- Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?
I wanted to edit this article, but due to the edit wars between the above mentioned users, the article has been fully protected indefinately.
- How do you think we can help?
This article should be able to be edited and monitored by users who are knowledgeable on this topic and non-political and neutral. The article should not be fully protected indefinately, but semi-protected for certain periods, because fully protecting this article did not solve the dispute and the controversial content is still present.
Menikure (talk) 13:20, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
Zaza people discussion
Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand. This is now at WP:RSN and Wikipedia:WikiProject Neutrality and Wikipedia:Editor assistance/Requests and was added to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement but removed as inappropriate. A request at WP:RPP for semi-protection with similar comments on an editor was declined. Dougweller (talk) 13:39, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
- In fact, I don't think it belongs here at all. I just checked and discovered that Menikure (talk · contribs) has never tried to discuss this on any talk page and indeed that Menikure has never responded to comments on his/her own talk page. At the top of this board it says "This noticeboard is not for disputes which have been carried out only through edit summaries or which have not received substantial discussion on a talk page.". I'm suggesting that this be taken to Talk:Zaza people. Dougweller (talk) 13:52, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
Zaza people resolution
Referred back to the article talk page due to lack of any discussion. Dougweller (talk) 13:53, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
Menahem Lonzano
![]() | Improperly filed. — TransporterMan (TALK) 15:37, 25 August 2011 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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IOUF -- re: Gulabe Kothari
Dispute overview
- Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?
There is a disagreement regarding the notability of a graduate of this university foundation. I believe the individual is notable and the other party believes they are not.
Users involved
- Who is involved in the dispute? (Make sure you let them know you have posted here)
Resolving the dispute
- Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?
Yes, we have discussed this on the talk page.
- How do you think we can help?
Please step in and end the edit war.
Thomanq (talk) 15:18, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
IOUF -- re: Gulabe Kothari discussion
Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.