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::Irrelevant reference. TFOWR, you're the one rolling out the straw man argument, not me. It's just simple geography the stateman decided a long time ago. The bottomline is, a consensual mandate is an important content and community building tool. Forbidding the poll caused far more disruption than allowing it to run its course. It was counterproductive. --[[User:LevenBoy|LevenBoy]] ([[User talk:LevenBoy|talk]]) 18:11, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
::Irrelevant reference. TFOWR, you're the one rolling out the straw man argument, not me. It's just simple geography the stateman decided a long time ago. The bottomline is, a consensual mandate is an important content and community building tool. Forbidding the poll caused far more disruption than allowing it to run its course. It was counterproductive. --[[User:LevenBoy|LevenBoy]] ([[User talk:LevenBoy|talk]]) 18:11, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
:::The only disruption came from you, LevenBoy - I closed the poll as it had run its course - it was a [[WP:SNOW]] close of a pointless poll that was outside [[WT:BISE]]'s remit anyway. My only regret is that I didn't close it as soon as it opened. My reference was relevant was because it showed you asking {{xt|How on earth can you say knowledge of constitutional matters are of no relevance when we are discussing and deciding matter of Statehoods?}} Yet above you claim {{!xt|We are not talking about "constitutional law". There is no need of any knowledge of constitutional law.}} The diff speaks to your honesty. Which I believe is ''very'' relevant in a thread you started about my conduct. [[User talk:TFOWR|<b style="color:#000">TFOW</b><b style="color:#F00">R</b>]] 18:35, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
:::The only disruption came from you, LevenBoy - I closed the poll as it had run its course - it was a [[WP:SNOW]] close of a pointless poll that was outside [[WT:BISE]]'s remit anyway. My only regret is that I didn't close it as soon as it opened. My reference was relevant was because it showed you asking {{xt|How on earth can you say knowledge of constitutional matters are of no relevance when we are discussing and deciding matter of Statehoods?}} Yet above you claim {{!xt|We are not talking about "constitutional law". There is no need of any knowledge of constitutional law.}} The diff speaks to your honesty. Which I believe is ''very'' relevant in a thread you started about my conduct. [[User talk:TFOWR|<b style="color:#000">TFOW</b><b style="color:#F00">R</b>]] 18:35, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

::::The poll had not "run its course". The poll had hardly even started. It was open for less than a day. The purpose was to clearly see what everyone thought, and their level of thought, and to build a clear mandate for consensus. As I have had to caution you, you do not speak for others.

::::I think it was a situation where you should "Assumed Good Faith" in the first place and consulted others. There was nothing uncivil or disruptive in the questions. They are entirely pertinent and logical. --[[User:LevenBoy|LevenBoy]] ([[User talk:LevenBoy|talk]]) 17:25, 11 October 2010 (UTC)


== Fox News Channel controversies ==
== Fox News Channel controversies ==

Revision as of 17:25, 11 October 2010

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    Time for WP:RFRD?

    Unresolved

    We're getting more and more requests for rev del at ANI. Do we think there's enough frequency here to split off those requests into a "Requests for revision deletion" board? I don't watchlist ANI, but I could watchlist something more modest like this. Jclemens (talk) 17:58, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Certain requests for revision deletion (outing, personal information, so forth) ought not be posted at ANI at all, nor any central noticeboard. –xenotalk 18:00, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Of course. But the fact remains that we have at least half a dozen on ANI right now. I would expect that you'd put this list on {{admin dashboard}} for quick action, much like our take on {{db-attack}}, such that we'd reduce the risk vs. just accepting them on ANI by quickly handling them. Jclemens (talk) 18:03, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I wonder if we could "appropriate" something, like the unblock-l mailing list that has lots of admin eyes on it, yet is still private, to direct such requests to? Because posting on ANI is defeating the whole point of RevDel, as would a separate noticeboard. A separate mailing list might be a better idea, actually. Courcelles 18:06, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, if something really merits oversight, we're pretty clear on that one, but there are plenty of gross insults meriting RD2 but not oversight. This would be targeted for those, again, like G10s. Jclemens (talk) 18:15, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Irony. I was literaly just coming here to pose the same question. WP:BURO and WP:BEANS aside, surely it's better to have REVDEL requests somewhere better than the highly visible (and some may say toxic) atmosphere of ANI. I'm not sure what my opinion is on wether it's better to have a board or a mailing list (gut instinct is that I don't like mailing lists) but it's clear we need something per Jclemens. Pedro :  Chat  19:29, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I vote for a board. Instructions should make clear that you should not identify anything in the objectionable content when posting diffs. These requests can be handled very quickly. --Selket Talk 20:06, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I guess I missed the boat on this. Are the rev-delete criteria that broad that items which merit rev deletion show up dozens of time a day? How many things are we rev deleting which would be better left in the history and reverted? Protonk (talk) 21:00, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    The main things appear to be BLP violations in edit summaries (which can't just be reverted) and extremely offensive BLP violations in the text of an article. Personal information happens but is rarer. -Selket Talk 21:12, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    (ec) Well, based on my reading of ANI today, it certainly seems like it. Feel free to peruse it and make up your own mind on whether the number of requests is based on merit (they should have indeed been made and done) or overuse (better simply reverted, as you say). Jclemens (talk) 21:13, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I was just thinking about this today, considering how many revdel requests are on the ANI board right now. Since I've found myself doing so many of them lately anyway, I'd be happy to sign up for a mailing list or watchlist a noticeboard, whichever way people want to go. I just don't think that ANI is the best place in the long term for these requests. -- Atama 21:32, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Perhaps we should make this more clear on the WP:REVDEL policy page, just as it is on the requests for oversight page? I do have to agree with Xeno, that we should be discouraging people to post Revision deletion requests on ANI or any noticeboard as that only creates a "Streisand effect", which we don't want. –MuZemike 21:22, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    At the same time, though, we can be sure that any request getting posted at ANI will get rapidly dealt with; earlier today, I dealt with one report within three minutes of it getting posted. Unless it's oversightable stuff (which should always be emailed anyway), I think overall it's better for these reports to get a minute or two of high-profile attention than to send it off to what is certain to be an under-staffed and under-utilized mailing list, where requests may end up getting left around for hours or missed entirely (which does happen, even on the OTRS lists at times). Hersfold (t/a/c) 21:42, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    The ability to stick a {{resolved}} on an entry is one reason I prefer a noticeboard to a mailing list. Jclemens (talk) 21:52, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Sometimes not, though; we had an outing issue on ANI yesterday which ended up with at least three admins having to revdelete about fifty revisions on half a dozen articles. By the time that had been cleared up, any editor who was interested would have known who the editor concerned was in real life. Black Kite (t) (c) 22:08, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I hope that situation is the exception, not the rule. That was a situation where personal information was sitting on a talk page for 2 years without being reverted. I doubt that happens a lot (or am I being naive?). -- Atama 22:12, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Outing issues shouldn't go to ANI anyway; those DO belong at the oversight list for that reason. Normal revdelete stuff - grossly offensive attacks, copyright vios, etc., can be handled in due time. Hersfold (t/a/c) 02:01, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think anything that needs RevDel also needs public postings. Noticeboards are fast, but visible. Mailing lists are private, but slower. I don't think there's a good solution either way. I would prefer a mailing list over a noticeboard, but both have their drawbacks. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 02:13, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Consider, though, that a RevDel mailing list OR noticeboard can explicitly exclude anything that meets the criteria for oversighting. RevDel on the way to oversighting is not something appropriate for such a noticeboard; RevDel for inappropriate content that does not rise to that level is. Jclemens (talk) 02:22, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Very true, but people will inevitably ignore things like that and post OSable stuff publicly because either they don't understand the gravity of the situation or they don't bother reading important notices. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 20:00, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Although a standalone specialised board could really, really whack people in the face with the need not to do that. Also such a board would provide a convenient single place to go for removing info from public view, since in explaining the difference between RevDel and Oversight it would point people to the latter's email address. This would also been opportunity to clarify under what circumstances Oversight is now preferred to RevDel, which I don't think is clear enough. eg at Wikipedia:Requests for oversight some of the points seem like RevDel. Finally, it would help keep experience with handling these requests in one place, which may be helpful for consistency. Rd232 talk 15:57, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    What I'm afraid is going to happen is that people are going to start posting stuff that should be oversighted on-wiki to this noticeboard, making it visible in two places instead of just one. –MuZemike 04:01, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Well if that really happens, even after taking advantage of the specialisation to make the issue much more prominent and clearer than it is now at AN/ANI, then we can delete the board and try something else. Rd232 talk 08:01, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    I think you'll find that those who wish to harass users via outing will game the system to make the personal information known in as many places as possible. Unless there is a bright line against posting personal information, like if in doubt do not do it, if unsure, do not do it, etc, it will continue to happen for a variety of reasons. Until the consequences of doing so are clearly not worth the thrill of harassment, it will continue. Bullies will always justify their tactics until it is clearly and uniformly forbidden. 71.139.5.184 (talk) 10:30, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Just a thought, but as we already have {{Copyvio-histpurge}}/Category:Requested history purges and {{Non-free reduced}}/Category:Rescaled fairuse images, both of which involve revision deletions (AFAIK anyway), why not implement something similar along these lines? In any case, as I commented at the TfD for {{Copyvio-histpurge}}, I don't think it would be appropriate to delete that template without having something to replace it. PC78 (talk) 15:14, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Straw Poll

    Seems that the discussion has died down a bit, and people have staked out a few definite positions, which I'm going to try to summarize here:

    Position 1: Nothing new is needed

    The status quo position. Editors can be encouraged to use the oversight mailing list and/or discouraged from posting anything to ANI. The risk of centralizing RevDel requests anywhere per either of the following outweighs the benefits in doing so.

    Support
    1. 2nd choice to establishing an "WikiEN-admins" mailing list, see discussion below. –MuZemike 15:26, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    2. First choice per my comments above. Hersfold (t/a/c) 16:32, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    3. Sorry, but I just don't see any good way to deal with this. ANI has its speed benefits, and hopefully no one is stupid enough to post private info there. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 00:58, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    4. No matter how fast ANI or a new board can take care of the problem, material that is subject to revdel should not be posted anywhere in the same way that oversight requests should not be onwiki. I have no objects to a new mailing list, but don't think it's necessary. -Atmoz (talk) 18:39, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    5. Kevin Baastalk 17:31, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    6. I agree that we should discourage new posting of the offensive material on site by making a new board that hosts it. Anyone that puts the noticeboard on their watchlist will see the content. This looks like a well intended proposal, but would led to more focus on the content not less. For example, an internet site could easily find the offensive material if it monitors the noticeboard. Also, the content is not always corrected perfectly with revdel on the first try. It is not uncommon for extra diff with offensive material to be left on the page in error. So we are potential taking a page with low page views to one with much higher page views. For these reasons, I recommend against a centralized noticeboard. FloNight♥♥♥♥ 09:14, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      I respect your concern but "Anyone that puts the noticeboard on their watchlist will see the content. " is exaggerated. Generally people will be sensible enough not to put sensitive content in an edit summary or on the board itself (and revdel is available for errors here); so it's generally just diffs to the content, which people will need to first go to the board for, and then click on. Diffs which will disappear as soon as the revdel is done. And I'm not quite sure who is supposed to be out there looking on a continuous basis for revdel content on anybody on Wikipedia in case something interesting gets rev-deleted (meaning: no source for it). I can't quite see a market for that. Anyway, we can slightly guard against this by keeping even the subject/topic out of the edit summary - eg just "RevDel Request 817". Rd232 talk 10:01, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      Everyone that reports a contribution to be revdel will have the page added to there watchlist, right? So overtime the number of people who are alerted about new content will steadily grow. But I'm not primarily concerned about the innocent rubberneckers, but the people who deliberately troll. Our internal discussions are monitored by people who are banned and in dispute with Wikipedia editors/admins and WMF, and the also people who are the subject of articles. When I checked my email today before posting this I saw an email on checkuser mailing list about a vandal account who was trolling and mentioning the name of a banned wikpeida editor in their trolling on meta. I'm very concerned that putting the content in a centralized location will expose more low profile content to these vandals and trolls. We know that trolls and banned users are already doing this to some degree. This will make it easier for them to see the newest content that is problematic enough to be remove. IMO, we will be making the situation worse for the sake of efficiency of processing the requests. Also, my concern is that people will get the impression that placing the content on this page is the "right" way to get it removed when it would be by far better to quietly contact an active admin to do it. Also, on this page are there going to be discussions about whether to keep revdel, or whether to escalate to suppression. Will someone be clerking the page to keep out discussions and questions about content? FloNight♥♥♥♥ 08:52, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      Well as I said below, it comes down to which you think is more of a problem: A) people seeing Bad content in the article before it's RevDeleted, because they're reading the article (or at least watching it and seeing the Bad edit) or B) vandals and trolls looking to cause problems, and deciding to use Bad content to help them, and getting easier, centralised access to it, albeit in very brief bites before it's RevDeleted. I don't see any easy answers to prevent both - the current solutions offered basically trade off A and B (and to me A feels marginally more of a Real Life problem and B marginally more Wikipedia, though both have both qualities). More complete answers might be some completely new approach, like say a Site Notice type thing which is only visible to admins (and can be dismissed immediately once the issue is handled). Or else a board which can only be read by admins (but permitting posts from anyone). In the mean time, the current system defaults to ANI, which has the worst qualities of both A and B. We can emphasise at the new board that if you can catch an admin active right now (eg get an onwiki or IRC confirmation they'll respond quickly to an email you're about to send), then that may be preferable to posting on the board. Again: this explanation is not an option at ANI. Rd232 talk 11:25, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    7. Nothing new is needed. -FASTILY (TALK) 17:47, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm not in favour of either of the other two options; more consideration needed before we do either. John Vandenberg (chat) 07:52, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • You gotta be kidding. We're supposed to be trying to decrease the impact of these postings, not highlighting them, with a noticeboard whose history will include all of the articles that have been vandalized....or users who have been on the receiving end of harassment....or the ones that actually need to be oversighted. Try this sample post to ANI instead. "HI, I need an admin to do a revdelete, could an admin please email me? Thanks!" Much better to wait fifteen minutes, with three people seeing the problem edit, than wait five minutes with 300, including folks taking screenshots of it just to prove how inept we are. Risker (talk) 08:35, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • screenshot of what? A specialised board can provide detailed guidance on how to make a request without revealing any more info than necessary, as well as providing guidance on how to try contacting someone directly instead. Rd232 talk 10:16, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Per the other functionaries who have explained why we should not do this. oppose any of the other options. A noticeboard is a very bad idea. A new mailing list is a bad idea. ++Lar: t/c 18:26, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • A noticeboard would defeat the purpose of the procedure, Revision delete is intended to hide revisions, not call them to general attention. DGG ( talk ) 15:03, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Discussion
    • Comment Not convinced on the issues some have raised here. RevDelete (in this sense) is not the same as oversight/suppression and doesn't need the same degree of off-wiki privacy. It's in effect a cousin of WP:CSD. Attack pages may be emailed to oversighters or asked about off-wiki, but the norm is they are simply tagged on-wiki and dealt with by admins as a routine on-wiki matter. RevDelete (in admin mode, as being discussed here) handles similar kinds of issues. So I see no problem with it being visible on-wiki that RevDelete has been requested. A noticeboard seems the sensible option. FT2 (Talk | email) 11:50, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      We don't have a CSD noticeboard. They are tagged, as you point out, and dealt with sans a public record+discussion of them being left behind. John Vandenberg (chat) 07:57, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Position 2: Add a new noticeboard

    A new noticeboard provides a centralized place, much like the monitoring of {{db-attack}} where RevDel'able material can be widely watchlisted and quickly handled by interested admins. We can NOINDEX it, point people to oversight mailing list for serious issues, and not archive it to keep the Streisand effect to a minimum to mitigate the known risks.

    Support
    1. As proposer. Jclemens (talk) 04:57, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    2. Sounds good. Access Denied [FATAL ERROR] 06:52, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    3. Makes sense to me. Disagree it will necessarily have slower responses than ANI. Yes, ANI has more watchers, but the relevant watching will be from active admins, which is a pretty small group - and with proper announcements, that shouldn't be an issue. If anything, it might lead to quicker responses, because ANI has so much else going on that (a) requests won't appear on watchlists the same way they will on a specialised board and (b) quite a few admins basically ignore ANI as taking too much time and trouble, and at least some of these may watch the new board. Rd232 talk 19:18, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    4. Can't hurt to give it a try. I agree with Rd232's points as well. Airplaneman 23:06, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    5. Good idea, we already have the category for attack pages. Make it like AIV, dealt-with reports should automatically be removed. Maybe make disposable date-based subpages that are deleted a soon as everything for that day is done? — Train2104 (talk • contribs • count) 02:24, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    6. The lesser of all evils. I think it would likely be well maintained to be honest - AIV is rarely backlogged for example and I'd view it as a similar board. Pedro :  Chat  13:59, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    7. I think it would help get these requests off ANI and would bring faster response than an email list. -- Atama 20:03, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    8. Seems like a sensible proposal, as worded, above. -- Cirt (talk) 20:08, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    9. SarekOfVulcan (talk) 05:46, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    10. Give it a try. I like the bot idea. MER-C 02:11, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    11. Yes. MLauba (Talk) 10:51, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    12. Sounds like a good idea, but oppose the use of a bot for revision deletion. This task should be made by humans, to avoid bugs in the bot causing problems. Armbrust Talk Contribs 14:39, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    13. Provided that it bears a prominent warnings, including an editnotice, that requests for the removal of non-public information are NOT to be placed on the noticeboard under any circumstances, but must instead be emailed to the oversight list or otherwise transmitted to oversighters privately. WP:AN/I currently lacks such an editnotice, and the warning in the header is buried. Also, a dedicated noticeboard easily facilitates the revision deletion of the requests themselves, when necessary, while WP:AN/I will probably have too many unrelated intervening edits. Peter Karlsen (talk) 05:18, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    14. As long as the material linked to there isn't oversightable, this is probably the best way. The page's header and editnotice can ensure that users know what not to put there, and it's as visible as Category:Candidates for speedy deletion as attack pages, which I believe is on the same level. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 09:13, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    15. Support per precisely Peter Karlsen's thoughts above. Arbitrarily0 (talk) 15:58, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    16. Would result in plenty of people handling the requests, so response times would be similar to AIV or RFPP, and would stop these requests piling up on ANI. Possibly we could delete the page once a day to remove any problematic material in the edit history. Hut 8.5 12:51, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    17. I think it is a good idea. --Alpha Quadrant talk 01:02, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    18. Support per my comment in previous section. RevDelete in the sense being discussed is used as a cousin to WP:CSD which are tagged on-wiki and not seen as a problem to do so. The kinds of issue for which RevDelete will be used here, are similar to those which have CSD templates and where on-wiki tagging and eventual admin action have been used for years. No problem with them being listed at a noticeboard. FT2 (Talk | email) 11:50, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    19. Support - easiest option. Magog the Ogre (talk) 05:59, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Discussion
    • What if we have a bot that automatically revdels revisions submitted to the board (with limits on number of revisions per user in a time period and perhaps require submitter to be autoconfirmed, etc. to prevent abuse) pending admin review? This way any revisions submitted would be revdel'd immediately and invisible to most people, but we still retain the benefits of a public noticeboard. T. Canens (talk) 00:53, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • What, so we'd then go back and check for abuses, reverse them, and block editors for requests made in bad faith? Hmm... that's a radically different proposal. Not sure I've thought through all the implications yet. Jclemens (talk) 19:35, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • In any case an obvious, um, advantage of this noticeboard idea is that it permits automation. E.g. very much in the spirit of a completely open Wikipedia something similar to Deletionpedia could be set up. A bot could save all problematic edits on a server outside the Wikimedia Foundation's hands before an admin gets around to dealing with them. This would take inclusionism to a new level and would certainly be useful for all kinds of research about Wikipedia. Hans Adler 19:56, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • This is such a distant possibility that any further discussion of it is really an unnecessary and possibly even counter-productive distraction. In any case, if volumes ever get high enough for people to seriously consider automation, I doubt the existence of a board would make all that much difference. In other words... come back c. 2015 and see how things are going. :) Rd232 talk 22:34, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
            • It appears that you've come around (based on what some more recent posts are saying) to realising that this is not "such a distant possibility" as to be discounted, but rather a very real clear and present danger. Did you want to formally retract the above and then apologize to those you cast aspersions on? Might help soften some of the opposition to any change in the status quo among many of those who have actual experience with oversight and other privacy sensitive roles within WMF. Because your latest proposal, that RFO be enhanced to speak to the revdel aspect without any encouragement of posting any private information, is a lot closer to what's needful here if we want to properly respect privacy and not enable those who actively wish the project and its volunteers harm than where you started from. Which is to be applauded. ++Lar: t/c 14:47, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I agree with Hersfold. We are taking content that often is only on a page with a very low number of view, and moving it to a centralized page where many more people will see it. Seems to me this approach would make it possible for someone to monitor the page and see their offensive comments repeated. Some of our worst vandals look for new people to harass. Copycat vandals are a problem, and could be made worse if the material is centralized. FloNight♥♥♥♥ 09:28, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • It's not obvious that many more people will see it than on ANI, which is the status quo. Non-admins wouldn't have much of a reason to monitor the new board (would they?) and the setup (unlike at ANI) can very clearly be limiting info to diffs, which die for non-admins as soon as RevDel is done. "Some of our worst vandals look for new people to harass." I can't comment on that - I'm not aware of anything like that and it doesn't obviously make sense to me (I thought vandals generally targeted editors, unless they had a real-life grudge). And if the material is swiftly RevDeleted, copycat vandals don't have anything to copy. And remains true that if this actually happens, we can pull the plug very easily. There's also the issue of alternatives: the only one which avoids this risk entirely is a new admin mailing list, which creates issues with timeliness of response, as well as perhaps coordination problems. A priori, I'd put not removing things from the page in question with due speed as a higher problem than potential problems from centralisation, but maybe I'm just unfamiliar with that territory. Rd232 talk 10:11, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Actually, most people have the sense to find an administrator on a one-to-one basis to ask for a revdelete. And the only "timeliness" issue is the number of readers who see the problem edit between its identification and its removal. Fifteen minutes with three people seeing it is a lot better than 5 minutes with 300 people seeing it...copying it...discussing it... Risker (talk) 08:41, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • The 3 people are more likely the ones who actually care about the subject and perhaps know the person IRL; the 300 (in 5 minutes?!) are likely admins and random passersby. Rd232 talk 10:02, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
            • And malicious lurkers rubbing their hands in glee that their bot gets to auto archive the content all the links posted... lots of raw material for later mischief in one handy place. We should not be encouraging anyone to post any details of the problems themselves and a notice board is likely to do just that. ++Lar: t/c 18:24, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
              • It need not, and why would it? As explained, it can be designed as merely a central place for contacting admins about RevDelete, with no-info logging of request handling. This would be better than the status quo, which is ANI + an unknown number of requests never made by people who are unaware of RevDel or how to get a request executed. Rd232 talk 19:47, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Note
    I have added this straw poll to {{Centralized discussion}}. Access Denied [FATAL ERROR] 21:15, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Eww, the idea is to revdel something before lots of people notice it. If we create a noticeboard, people will use it rather than dig around a bit further until they find the way to privately request revdel. John Vandenberg (chat) 07:43, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • And a big notice at the noticeboard suggesting they contact someone privately wouldn't help them? You could even have a system by which admins log themselves in and out at the board as available right now for private messages. (Ideally with some kind of software backup to check for them forgetting to log out.) Rd232 talk 10:02, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Position 3: Add a new mailing list

    A mailing list loses the {{resolved}} capability of a noticeboard, but it's relatively simple to restrict membership to admins such that we're not putting requests for rev deletion directly onto Wikipedia... as long as people follow the instructions.

    Support
    Discussion
    • If we were to go forward with a "WikiEN-admins" mailing list, it would definitely need to be non-public for obvious reasons; non-admins can post to the list, but they will not be able to subscribe to it or view any other emails in it (similar to "unblock-en-l" regarding unblock requests). Something like this would also open the door for other forms of (at times sensitive) discourse exclusively amongst en.wiki admins. I'm leaning towards supporting if at the least to see if this is a viable route to go, but perhaps more discussion is necessary if we wish to go in this direction. –MuZemike 15:23, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Ewww. I get enough emails already from the lists I'm already on. Also has severe risk for these requests to fall through the cracks and never get noticed. Hersfold (t/a/c) 16:32, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Can't people just send stuff into WP:RFO's mailing list like they do now? That's what I do. Gets the job done. - NeutralhomerTalk04:06, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Likewise. Also, if there are two mailing lists, some mail will go to one place that should have been sent to the other, and then it will be forwarded to the right place - increasing the net exposure of information that's being removed because it shouldn't be exposed. Better to just make the current Oversight infrastructure a front end for all of this stuff. Gavia immer (talk) 18:52, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • a new mailing list for admins could be quite useful, but it should be considered with more than this in mind, by way of a full RFC. John Vandenberg (chat) 07:50, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Neutralhomer is correct, Requests for Oversight is a better alternative than a noticeboard. First off, a goodly number of published requests for revision deletion have actually been serious enough for oversight. Secondly, the oversighters keep a pretty close watch on the mailing list, and most requests are DISCREETLY addressed in a short time. Finally, the more people who are on a mailing list, the higher the likelihood of leaks. Any mailing list with a thousand people on it is going to leak like a sieve. Risker (talk) 08:45, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm confused: are you suggesting all RevDeletion be handled via RFO (discounting cases of admins being approached directly)? Doesn't that require all the work to be done by oversighters, or else admins to have access to it (which I thought they didn't)? Rd232 talk 10:02, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • This board has received, what, 5 requests for revision deletion in the last month? There were hundreds of revision deletions during that time. The oversighters can handle the few that aren't already addressed in other ways. But creating a noticeboard whose main effect will be to PUBLICISE EDITS NEEDING REVISION DELETION defeats the purpose of revision deletion. As to whether or not it will be overwork on the part of oversighters, the oversight team had no difficulty keeping up with the volume of requests before admins had revdelete, and it would be even simpler now with better workload management and a wider timezone availability of oversighters. The argument that it would be too hard for a newbie to find an admin doesn't make a lot of sense; the biggest issue that newbies face is that they don't even know that certain edits can be revdeleted, and they're no more likely to go to the "right" noticeboard than to anywhere else. Here's a question for you, though. Why are there so many revision deletions? Has anyone been reviewing them to ensure that policy is being followed? I'd venture to say that at least 30% of the ones I look at aren't covered by policy. Risker (talk) 11:13, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • "Has anyone been reviewing them to ensure that policy is being followed?" - how? A specialised board would permit some reviewing, as even after swift deletion, other admins could look. Consistency is one of the arguments for having a board: and it's a big argument, because there's quite lot of uncertainty both among admins and among everyone else as to what qualifies. The former figuring out some kind of agreed practice would be a basis for more clarity all round. Rd232 talk 13:58, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • Of course, if oversighters can handle the load that well, then having them do all RevDeletion would be one way to both centralise and ensure consistency. Leave admins the RevDel right but as a matter of practice, point everything to WP:RFO. Rd232 talk 14:07, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • No matter how vociferously you shout "PUBLICISE EDITS NEEDING REVISION DELETION", that doesn't mean that this board will do much of that. I've made various suggestions as to how the board can make posting at the board a last resort, with alternatives given at the board itself which avoid making any info public. Those alternatives are not publicised anywhere else! There needs to be a central place to handle this, even if the place itself doesn't actually handle the info itself and thus isn't really a board. But it would make sense for it to handle posts on occasion as a last resort. Rd232 talk 14:07, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
            • it needs to not do any of that. Not one bit. Else I think regardless of consensus it needs to not be done... consensus cannot override WMF privacy policy. I do like the idea about tracking that mail was sent, and that it was handled, without any actual details of what the mail says, but as soon as any details are made public, no. Not acceptable. ++Lar: t/c 18:22, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Position 4: status quo

    Position 1 does not adequately describe the status quo ante, which is unhelpful. Currently we have

    1. WP:RFO
    2. WP:ANI
    3. Contacting admins directly.

    1. currently ignores RevDel. 2. is highly visible (most watched page?), has no relevant guidance for RevDel, and if it had any, it would be pretty well lost in the existing noise of instruction. 3. Is haphazard, and especially for newbies problematic. For anyone, creates the problem of knowing whether an admin will actually respond to an email or user talk page request in a timely manner. Now let's review this again: who supports this? Rd232 talk 10:09, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • I do. (nice straw dog by the way but ok) It is not perfect but it's better than either of alternatives 2 or 3. Especially 2 (a new noticeboard) which is fraught with peril. ++Lar: t/c 18:28, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Status quo works for me, as apparently it does for the majority of people looking for revision deletion. Please note these statistics here: Wikipedia:Revision deletion/Statistics Given this data, it's pretty clear that this is a tool being used by a wide range of administrators, and that it is being used very regularly; the numbers you are seeing here are only from five months. As I noted above, I am concerned to see this many revision deletions being done; in fairness, when administrators got the tool, some went and reviewed long-present data that was not covered under the strict deletion policy but was covered under the revision deletion policy. Risker (talk) 16:54, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      As an aside, do we have any idea what a similar slice of oversighting actions was in the preceding period? I'd be interested in knowing if a lot of these revdels are things that previously would have gone and been accepted for oversight, or if it is the wider availability of the tool + perhaps a less firm grasp on what can and cannot be revdel'd. Syrthiss (talk) 17:05, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    By and large, oversight only oversighted things that would get the foundation sued and personal data about people. Statements such as "Foo is a ***ing *** whose ***ing mother ***s ***ing goats" would just have been reverted. Go back prior to revdelete in the history of Jeremy's talkpage and you'll see what I mean. These days they revdelete the 4chan stuff. Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:56, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Position 5: RevDel Central

    A "noticeboard" (really a RevDel equivalent of RFO) designed as a central place for explaining how to make RevDel requests, elaborating some kind of system to make contacting admins by email more transparent (without making any info public) and less haphazard. Exactly how this would work can be hashed out later; the principles of this proposal are i) no info public and ii) a central place to explain and manage requests. This can be done in any number of ways (and would probably evolve over time, like everything else). For example it could be structured as a log with "request number # sent by email to Admin Y at time such and such", and after deletion the admin responds on the board with a link so other admins can review. Or, if we didn't even want that level of publicness (though that's hardly more than the existing log), we could devise some system involving requests going by email to several admins, so that the decision is reviewed entirely offline, and the log merely shows requests and the timeliness of fulfilment (not even who, since that would leave contribs checkable for Clues). The board could, for instance, provide a list of Currently Online Admins (who are willing to deal with RevDel requests). Rd232 talk 19:47, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    1. As proposer. Rd232 talk 19:47, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Position 6: Oversight

    Merge everything into WP:RFO, and have oversighters' mailing list deal with RevDel requests. The RFO page can present the "email admins directly" option, and leave the Oversight mailing list as a fallback. Rd232 talk 19:47, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    As mentioned above, this is the only sane option. Gavia immer (talk) 19:55, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Yep. ++Lar: t/c 14:48, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Sufficient consensus?

    I think we have gotten sufficient consensus to create the noticeboard, so someone should go ahead and do it! Meanwhile, I'll be designing a header and editnotice in my userspace. Access Denied [FATAL ERROR] 00:40, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Well it's sufficient consensus for a draft to be helpful at this point; it may help overcome some reservations. Rd232 talk 10:16, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    It's a little bit "cart before the horse", but those who oppose the board in principle seem to underestimate the range of design options available. Besides what I've already said above, you could design the board so that all that's seen publicly is a log of requests (with no useful information in the log, not even a link, least not whilst it's any use to non-admins). For example the log could be structured as "request number # sent by email to Admin Y at time such and such", and after deletion the admin responds on the board with a link so other admins can review. Or, if we didn't even want that level of publicness (though that's hardly more than the existing log), we could devise some system involving requests going by email to several admins, so that the decision is reviewed entirely offline, and the log merely shows requests and the timeliness of fulfilment. Rd232 talk 14:25, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm all for something sufficiently clever to avoid BEANS issues, that actually gets coded, actually works, and actually diverts traffic away from ANI. Jclemens (talk) 22:23, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I imagined that my idea you're replying to wouldn't require coding, just instructions to people on what to do, and a template or two. Rd232 talk 20:33, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Revisiting this, there's still a clear numerical majority favoring a new noticeboard, but at the same time there are also a number of pretty senior people saying it's a bad idea. I'm simply not seeing why it's a bad idea, given that we're already getting multiple requests at ANI, that the content in question will only last on-wiki as long as it takes an admin to RevDel it, and that it doesn't change Oversight at all. Jclemens (talk) 03:46, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • We need more input I think. Myself, a notice board that merely tracks that requests were made is preferable to one that gives links to the items in need of attention, and my opposition to it is softer. But a notice board to track this would be, in my view, fairly complex in operation so I'm not seeing the benefit. ++Lar: t/c 04:13, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Here it is

    User:Access Denied/RFRDHeader Access Denied [FATAL ERROR] 17:35, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    I first came upon this editor as a result of a post to the WP:BLPN in June 2010. Having tried hard, I now believe that this editor is a not net contributor to this article or related ones. User:Tao2911;s edits shown the classic signs disruptive editors. Many editors have noted the repeated problems with NPOV and violations of BLP policy. Since June 2010, the editor has been attempting to insert poorly sourced negative material into the biography of a living person Eido Tai Shimano. His edits have been the subject of multiple postings to the BLPN and reliable sources noticeboard by different editors; July 2010 July 2010 July 2010 July 2010 August 2010 September 2010

    The editor's conduct has been discussed on ANI in July 2010 and previously for issues related to other articles. The editor has been warned on their talkpage about personal attacks,"point violations", BLP violations and edit warring.

    Of particular concern is their disregard for our BLP and V policies. S/he has used poor sourcing (e.g. blogs) but more worringly has repeatedly inserted material that are not in the citations given.(see [1][2][3][4][5][6]). Their edits are also slanted and breach NPOV standards. e.g.[7]. Editwarring against multiple editors to protect their preferred version has also occurred on multiple occasions (see the article logs for September/October for example [8]) In addition to the article related problems, Tao2911 attacks other editors, accusing them of vandalism, being "pro-Shimano fascist sexist trolls" bias, whitewashing and censorship, and has made disruptive, point making edits.

    Besides the examples given above, the most recent edits are a case in point. Recently returned from an edit warring block, Tao2911 has, without any discussion as requested and commenced on the talkpage to delete sourced information that had been agreed to by editors on the talkpage, and more problematically still, to insert negative false material (in that it is contradicted by the citations given) :ie in this edit s/he adds "some of" to the sentence about Shimano's denials of allegations of sexual misconduct, a limitation not found in the sources given. This has been reverted, quite correctly, by another editor. In July User:EyeSerene explained that this kind of problematic, tendentious editing, especially on a BLP might eventually lead to sanctions.[9]. Several other editors have asked for restrictions on Tao2911 [10][11] I think we've tried long enough to help this editor learn the kind of standards (editorially and behaviourally) required on WP and especially a BLP article. It appears the editor is able to make useful contributions on other articles, and indeed one they have edited Adi Da was recently made a Good Article. However, the time has come for Tao2911 to be topic banned from this page and from any related pages that deal with Shimano, though perhaps others have other ideas. Slp1 (talk) 16:41, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Slp1 gives a fair summary of events, and I concur with his request. I first visited the Shimano page after discovering it through WP:BLPN. Not knowing the history, at first I was sympathetic towards Tao's position. However, his disinclination to discuss things reasonably quickly changed that opinion. I am disturbed not only by what seems to me to be a tendency to accuse others of conspiracy when others disagree with him, but also by the pattern of highly tendentious editing. In Tao's absence, reasonable progress was made toward a consensus on this contentious article. That progress has been nullified by his edits and comments. His edits to Shimano are routinely improper per the BLP rules, and his interactions are difficult to perceive as good-faith discussions. It's definitely time for something more than a slap on the wrist, especially given Tao's history, as summarized above by Slp1. In my opinion, Tao's primary contribution to the Shimano page has been to unite opposing editors—through disbelief at his actions. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 18:26, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    After Slp1 summary and macwhiz statement I do not have much to add. While discussing matters in Shimano talk page, as well as in BLPN or RSN, I was struck by the manners of Tao and they way he responds to me and other editors. By now all of us, involved in editing this page, reached limit and it does not look we can find a way to cooperate with him. There is a consistent pattern in the way Tao is sabotaging efforts of others, who try to make this page balanced and complete. I support the request for banning Tao2911 from editing this and related pages. Spt51 (talk) 02:20, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I got involved after seeing the issue raised at various noticeboards as detailed by Slp1 above, and have intermittently followed events since July. I have seen numerous examples confirming that Tao2911 will not understand basic procedures regarding a WP:BLP and sources. Reading various news reports makes it obvious what a Buddhist teacher has been doing for many years, but reliable reports use quite mild language, while Tao2911 would prefer something more direct. I endorse Slp1's statement above, and if no better solution can be found, I support a topic ban. Johnuniq (talk) 10:33, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    "Tao 2911 will not understand basic procedures regarding a WP:BLP and sources". Reading today's discussion in POV section on Shimano page I am sorry to say, but I feel even stronger that he should be banned. Personally, I have a problem with they way he responds to editors and the language he uses. It was pointed out to him, but still the same pattern. Can someone explain to him what is appropriate and what is not? Spt51 (talk) 22:09, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    I understand WP:BLP perfectly clearly. Ban me, and you will simply hand the page to a concert of biased editors who wish to remove all mention of scandals surrounding Eido Shimano that have directly resulted in his retirement. I'm not going to draft the long list of dif's that would show this activity on behalf of partisan editors (Spt51 seems to have joined WP for this purpose) - a long list it would be, indeed - but check out the page history for yourselves. All I argue for again and again is a succinct description of the scandals that the New York Times describes as having "rocked the American Buddhist community."Tao2911 (talk) 22:25, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Defining the use and scope of "Incivility" (Terminology of the British Isles)

    Can someone firstly tell where how and where the "best" place is to appeal, and have removed, the terms of a sanction?

    Cheers. Secondly, I want to discuss a serious policy matter which related to this.

    In the terms of the sanction place on me and Triton rocker is about a disputes over the Terminology of the British Isles. The admin Cailil has used the term "persistent incivility" and "assumptions of bad faith" for both of us. What he really means and is is banning us from is discussiing the national identity or nationalist POV of the other editors involved in this dispute - Not "incivility".

    I am concern about this because the word or policy is being use to hide a different meaning.

    The disputes about the terminology of the British Isles are definitely being influenced by nationalist interests - it has been going on for a long time. We need "good faith" but we also and to be realistic it. We need to be able to discuss it where it might effect content and editorsæ motivations. These sanctions are just a kind of censorship from doing so. Many of us have point out that the sanctions are completely onesided.

    It is true to say that I strongly believe the motivations for the removal of the term British Isles from the Wikipedia by HighKing and other Irish editors are not logical or sincere and are nationalistically motivated. We need to be able to discuss this seriously without being blocked all the time. "Britain and Ireland", which is what they want to use, cannot be used to mean "British Isles" because the British Isles also include other islands with their own independent governments and identity.

    They want to use Britain and Ireland to make Ireland equal I suppose - I accept that - but they are confusing two different uses of the terminology. It creates problems because it removes the same rights for the Isle of Man and Channel Island which are part of the British Isles and British history. They are not part of Britain and Ireland. We cannot list all 4 nations every time. "British" in British Isles is not the same as the "adjective form" Britain as in Great Britain.

    The sanction was rapidly pushed through by Cailil, who is coincidentally also Irish, when both Triton rocker and I could not respond to it in anyway because we had been blocked see, sanction. Practically the only people commenting on it were those same editors we are talking about. It was also prejudiced by what was then an ongoing sockpuppet investigation Sockpuppet investigations LevenBoy which has since cleared me complete.

    Because of this, I think the sanctions and the terms are wrong and unfair. --LevenBoy (talk) 23:25, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • Well, TR's was completely correct; a complete inability to stay within the grounds of a sanction doubled with incivility to boot. LB, I will have a look at your case, but it's half midnight here now, so it may not be until tomorrow. Black Kite (t) (c) 23:32, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    If you look at TR's behaviour he was perfectly "civil" with others. He just had the wrong, perhaps too British, sense of humour.
    You are talking about something else entirely which was "your indefinite ban" to stop him adding the term British Isles to any page. I think we should question it too. The sanction being applied is completely different and even more far reaching. It is an identical censorship to me. He was also blocked during Cailil pushing through his sanction and I think he should be allowed to join this discussion. --LevenBoy (talk) 23:52, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Didn't this already undergo review on ANI? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:00, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    (answering self) Yes, on Oct 3rd - Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive642#Inappropriate sanctions imposed on Triton Rocker and LevenB, filed by a SPA, review finding was that the sanctions were appropriate. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:03, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually GWH this went in front of ANi before that again for community approval in the first instance[12]. When that ANi thread closed with only LemonMonday (that same WP:SPA account who already had this reviewed on 3/10/10) objecting I imposed the community's decision. Also the sanction is for persistent incivility and persistent failure to assume good faith as stated and as defined in policy--Cailil talk 00:46, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    For ease of reference the block and the civility parole discussion for LevenBoy was precipitated by this edit[13] which was preceded by a warning for this one [14] (warning issued by TFOWR[15]). That warning came days after LB had been blocked for incivility for these edit [16] and this one[17] made after users were asked not to comment on this page[18] (these offending edits were made after 4 earlier instances of disruption with 4 warnings - that particular issue is explained here[19])--Cailil talk 01:38, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    A number of the contributors here seem to be missing the point. That point is in regard to the sanctions, which were unilaterally imposed by the Cailil account without consensus. I have previously remarked on this. The indiscretions of LevenBoy are quite minor and there has been a total over-reaction to this matter. As LevenBoy points out, only those from what we can call the anti-BI camp were in favour of the sanctions. In fact, the sanctions appear to have been designed to silence opposition; what do we make of this from HighKing [20]? Given that Triton Rocker is blocked with no access to talk page, and LevenBoy has only just resumed editing after a significant break, how could HighKing claim the sanctions were successful if it was not that his consideration of success was the silencing of opposition. Tis whole issue of anti-BI POV goes on and on. Surely admins identifying, however indirectly, from one side of the debate, should not be issuing sanctions on those from the other side. LemonMonday Talk 12:23, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I guess I'm missing the point, too. When this was initially brought to ANI an uninvolved admin, Mjroots (talk) commented:

    Agree. Wikipedia is plenty big enough for troublesome editors to find outlets for their talent away from areas where it has been shown that their editing is problematic. The alternative is to completely exclude them from the project.

    When this was last reviewed an uninvolved admin, DGG (talk) commented:

    I am a little startled by Lemon Monday's statement above that "imposing a version of civility on the debate, which, due to the nature of that debate, is arguably inappropriate. " -- when this apparently refers to imposing a high level of civility. Where higher levels are most needed is precisely for disputes like this--the more intractable the dispute, the greater need for a very high standard of polite behavior, because of the ease at which they can escalate. I certainly endorse Cahill's actions.

    Another uninvolved admin, Georgewilliamherbert (talk), commented too:

    Concur with the blocks and DGG's comment.

    How many uninvolved admins need to concur with Cailil, Black Kite and myself before this matter is settled? LemonMonday, for that matter you've been told exactly what relevance Cailil's nationality has to this (i.e. none) on multiple occasions. After making your drive-by comments you disappear into the ether. The same happened when you asked for a diff of a civility issue - I provided one, but your thoughts on the matter were conspicuous by their absence. TFOWR 12:35, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I think LemonMonday should be blocked for tag team edit-warring [21] and continuing this battleground mentality with his comment above. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:00, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Great minds think alike. I just did that, and cited the very same reasons, tag-team edit warring and WP:BATTLE, plus WP:HEAR. [22] Jehochman Talk 13:01, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]


    I was just going to ignore this issue but it troubles me. I am struggling to understand the definition of edit warring, anything seems to be possible to fall foul of the rule. I have received a warning and threatened with a block for edit warring on British Isles naming dispute. The time line (my clock is usually 1 hour wrong)..

    • 19:45, 3 October 2010 - Highking removes templates with no debate. (removing templates)
    • 20:15, 3 October 2010 Juhrere (now indef blocked) undoes Highkings edit. (restoring templates)
    • 22:11, 3 October 2010 GoodDay undoes Juhrere's edit and tells him to take it to talk. (removing templates)
    • 12:45, 4 October 2010 BritishWatcher - undoes GoodDays edit (restoring the templates)
    • 16:47, 4 October 2010 HighKing - undoes BritishWatcher's edit (removing templates)
    • 21:52, 4 October 2010 BritishWatcher - Adds a different template (more refs template)
    • 15:34, 5 October 2010 BritishWatcher - Readds POV template and explains on the talk page one of the many problems (adds POV template)
    • 15:57, 5 October 2010 HighKing - Undoes BritishWatcher's addition of POV template (removes POV template)
    • 13:45, 8 October 2010 LemonMonday - Restores both templates

    I do not believe anyones actions in the above warrant a block, not even Highking's, nobody even violated WP:1RR let alone WP:3RR. Now i understand that "Edit warring" does not always have to mean 3RR or 1RR is violated, but i do not see how the "exemption" is justified in this case. An instant 12 hour block for LemonMonday in part for "Tag team edit warring" simply for restoring tags that were removed without debate or consensus after a year, that sort of thing could apply to so many editors and reverts. My 2 edits were over 24 hours apart and were trying to restore the status quo, if it was in a WP:1RR area then i could understand it, but as far as im aware no such restrictions exist on that page. Will the next person on the naming dispute page that removes the templates be given a warning or blocked for tag team edit warring simply as others have acted previously? It hardly seems fair.

    We may as well scrap 1RR an 3RR and simply say never revert anything because it can be classified as edit warring. BritishWatcher (talk) 08:42, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    I'd imagine that the key part is "...in part for...". If you or HighKing had also been "...continuing this battleground mentality with [your/their] comment above..." or otherwise expressing a WP:BATTLE mentality or inability to WP:HEAR then it's entirely possible that you or HighKing would also have been blocked for 24 hours. There is also the fact that by the time anyone noticed the edit warring it was mostly several days stale, which Jehochman did explain to you and HighKing. In contrast, LemonMonday's edit warring was not stale. TFOWR 11:15, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I still do not see how 2 edits over a period of more than 24 hours is edit warring and deserving of a block, its not even a technical breach of WP:1RR, let alone WP:3RR and yet if it was spotted at the time by the admin apparently it would justify sanction. LemonMonday made one edit restoring a template that was removed several days before, i do not see how that justifies a block either. Will the next editor to remove those templates from the article be blocked because they too are "tag team edit warring" simply for removing a template someone else removed? BritishWatcher (talk) 14:39, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    A key thing to understand BW is that reverting slowly but continuously over a long period of time is just as bad as breaking 3RR inside 24 hours. The reason we have policies about edit-warring or reverting in general is becuase the abuse of the revert function (or indeed edits that partially revert a previous edit) clogs up the history of an article. WP:3RR explains that editwarring need not be fast and furious but can also be slow - both are prohibited by policy. When we find slow edit wars they are taken seriously (as you can see). Also all of you really need to remind yourself that area is under probation--Cailil talk 14:44, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Edit warring slowly over a long period of time with dozens of edits backwards and forwards just spaced enough not to violate WP:3RR is one thing which i accept is problematic, but just two edits over the use of a template separated by more than 24 hours and the second after comments on the talk page, in an area that has no 1RR and sanctions only apply to adding/removing BI seems extreme. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:55, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict) BW, you're still missing the point that LemonMonday wasn't blocked solely for edit warring. WP:BATTLE and WP:HEAR were also cited by Ncmvocalist and Jehochman, and I repeated that in my previous reply to you. TFOWR 14:59, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    You could have been blocked, but nobody noticed at the time. Rather than place a punitive block on your account, which isn't allowed, I left you an admonishment not to edit war further. The basic pattern should be edit-revert-discuss, not edit-revert-revert-revert-revert. That sort of repeated reverting is hopeless because it doesn't lead to a stable outcome. I didn't see any intervening discussions of the edit, just a lot of slow-reverting, but if there were discussions please do leave the diffs and I'll update the record. The take away point is quite simple: don't participate in an edit war. This isn't a borderline case at all. Jehochman Talk 15:02, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Well i made a number of comments on the talkpage after my original revert. These are the main ones, although there are a few others where i simply made minor alterations / corrections to other parts of my comments.
    12:45, 4 October 2010 - (I undid Gooday's revert. Restoring the tags (POV and OR) removed by highking without debate after over a year) [23]
    12:51, 4 October 2010 - (i create a new section on the talk page titled "tags") [24]
    12:59, 4 October 2010 - (I mention another problem) [25]
    13:00, 4 October 2010 - (I respond to James saying theres still a ton of citation tags in the article which is enough to be concerned about) [26]
    13:01, 4 October 2010 - (i add to previous comment, no problem with tags being removed once some of the issues are dealt with) [27]
    13:15, 4 October 2010 - (i respond to James and highlight a problem with one of the sources) [28]
    14:08, 4 October 2010 - (Mentioned problems with a few more sources and another issue) [29]
    16:47, 4 October 2010 (HighKing undoes my revert, removing the tags again) [30]
    21:52, 4 October 2010 - (i add morerefs tag to article) [31]
    22:06, 4 October 2010 (I reply to HighKing saying the article certainly has neutrality/accuracy issues) [32]
    15:32, 5 October 2010 (I reply saying the intro is a problem for a start as it gives undue weight to random terms nobody ever uses which are put in the intro. I state i will be readding the neutrality tag. [33]
    15:34, 5 October 2010 (I readd the POV tag) [34]
    15:57, 5 October 2010 (Highking reverts my addition of POV tag) [35]
    I just do not understand how my actions are "edit warring" that could justify a block. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:08, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Expanding on what TFOWR wrote about BritishWatcher's timeline, I don't see one thing which I would expect to see, & which would prove that there is no battlefield mentality in this dispute: an attempt by any party involved to actually discuss the matter. Maybe there is one; BritishWatcher didn't provide any diffs or links for this Admin (who is so disinterested in the matter as to be almost uninterested) to investigate for himself. But, if a group of editors are simply reverting each other without discussion, then it doesn't matter if they are under a 3RR, a 1RR or a 0RR restriction. They are all edit warring & they all deserve sanctions. Either talk the matter over & figure out where you can agree on the matter, or find yourselves another hobby that doesn't involve editing Wikipedia. -- llywrch (talk) 17:35, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Returning to the main point

    I want to return to the main point again.

    This sanction was hurriedly pushed through while neither I nor Triton Rocker could defend ourselves. Yes, it was brought up again but, again, hurriedly closed while neither I nor Triton Rocker could comment or defend ourselves. Triton Rocker is still not allowed to defend himself because his talk page is still conveniently blocked. [36] The point I want to make is, this sanction is essentially dishonest in its wording. It is not about "incivility" meaning "bad words". In my case, it was not even about my irrelevant history. Cailil's sanctions are not about bad language or rudeness. It creates a false and prejudicial impression to new contributors to the dispute. The intention is to stop individuals from rationally discussing the issue of editors involved in the British Isles naming dispute being nationalistically motivated, and possibly even irrationally so. Specifically questioning the motivation of the Irish editors involved.

    If you look at Triton Rocker's history, I can see no relevent history of "incivility". I think he was an example of civility even while being accused of being me, reverted or attacked by the usual gang surrounding these topics. See: [37], [38], [39], [40], [41], [42], [43] (taken at random).

    What are "incivil" about these? Nothing. Therefore it is not about "incivility".

    Like I said, the accusations were framed in an then ongoing sockpuppet accusation which has since cleared as "pretty conclusively Unrelated." [44] This I believe was deeply prejudicial. Basically, no one else cared about it except the Irish tag team involved in the dispute.

    I am raising this is because it sets a dangerous precedent in any nationalist conflict area or naming dispute where an admin who themselves associate with one side or another can swoop in and throw around blocks at the other side. Of course, I want the wording taken off or sanction changed, and I think Triton Rocker should be allowed to defend himself.

    Neither of us was making false or harsh accusations. No one was calling anyone else a "Nazi". The others editors literally state their nationalistic or republican sympathies clearly on their talk pages, or would admit to it. No one was being outing.

    It is highly relevent to ongoing discussions that we are allowed to discuss this. --LevenBoy (talk) 16:26, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Premature Poll Closure

    I apologise but I have to raise the issue of the admin TFOWR prematurely closing a poll I set as consensus building and unilaterally forbidding it to complete, despite being supported by others. [45].

    We need to clarify matters on the British Isles naming dispute. We need to see where individuals stand and resolve the contradictions. It may even be that we have to encourage certain user to educate themselves what the legal reality of the 4 states are. I asked TFOWR politely to allow me to ask three simple questions which would help us do so.

    • Is Britain and Ireland is an invalid equivalent for British Isles. (speaking legally or technically) - the answer is no because Britain and Ireland does not include the Isle of Man & Channel Islands whereas British Isles does.
    • Are the Isle of Man & Channel Islands a part of the United Kingdom or Republic of Ireland? - the answer is also no because Isle of Man & Channel Islands are neither part of Britain nor Ireland.

    And, thirdly, I want to ask

    • What do we do when references, which might be subjective opinion, outdated, propagandic or even erroneous, contradict that reality?

    The reason for these questions is that the Irish activists on the Wikipedia, lead by HighKing, have been persistently attempting to replace "British Isles" with "Britain and Ireland" which is incorrect because it excludes the Isle of Man & Channel Islands.

    I feel TFOWR is becoming provocative by twisting my words suggesting that I want to "poll reality" or by changing the argument, that it is "beyond the scope of the project" to decide national borders, when those borders have already been decided nationally and legally.

    Amazing, he claims "Contributors' knowledge of constitutional law is of no relevance here" when, surely, that is precisely what we need to accept in such a dispute to get it right. While accusing me of disruption I think he is actually causing more disruption and blocking consenus building. I have stated clearly that I think he is acting beyond his authority here. --LevenBoy (talk) 16:26, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    The question on Britain and Ireland / UK and Ireland are valid ones although it may have been better to deal with that at the main terminology page, rather than BISE. "Britain and Ireland" is claimed to be the main alternative to the British Isles, at present British Isles does mislead people about the status of "Britain and Ireland", which is not an archipelago in north west europe. TFOWR did nothing wrong by closing one of your polls, infact closing the poll on if they are part of the UK / Ireland highlights its commonsense they are not part of those places. There for there is a problem with "Britain and Ireland" being an alternative name for the archipelago. BritishWatcher (talk) 16:56, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • The more disruptive certain editors become, the more closer those editors move towards a ban - for however long it takes for the actual message (not the foolishly fabricated excuses that this is about a pro or anti POV of some sort or that this is about overreaching authority of some sort) to sink in. I'm not sure how many other ways that Cailil, TFOWR, Jehochman, Georgewilliamherbert, llywrch, DGG, Mjroots, or any other user for that matter can make it clear that this area is under probation and disruption should (and will) be met with sanctions. With the continued soapboxing and battleground mentality exhibited by Levenboy, particularly in the section above this one, there will be no option but for a topic ban to be imposed if there isn't a drastic change soon. Note: I've also changed the title of this section to something more neutral. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:07, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • LevenBoy set up two polls: one asks under what circumstances, if any, "Britain and Ireland" is an accpetable alternative for the term "British Isles". I have not close this poll, as it is a valid question to ask. The second poll asked whether the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man are part of the United Kingdom or the Republic of Ireland. I have closed this second poll because it is not within our power as Wikipedia editors to decide this - the constitutional status of these islands is well known, not disputed, and I felt the poll was pointless. Indeed, I felt that the purpose of the poll was to justify an edit like this one - a cheap attempt to make a WP:POINT. Regarding LevenBoy's amazement at my "Contributors' knowledge of constitutional law is of no relevance here" point - I have told LevenBoy and other editors at WT:BISE time and time again that what matters is policy and precedent, not contributors knowledge of arcane British constitutional law, or other expert topics. This should come as no surprise to most Wikipedians: this project was set up in such a way that non-experts could participate; indeed, so that non-experts could take a primary role. Expert knowledge has never been required: what's required is the ability to read, discuss, and collaborate. I do not believe that contributors' knowledge of British constitutional law is relevant at WT:BISE, and I believe if LevenBoy wants to ask other contributors about their knowledge of such law it is best done on LevenBoy's talkpage. TFOWR 17:10, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • This is a straw man argument. We are not talking about "constitutional law". There is no need of any knowledge of constitutional law. We are talking about simple, commonly known geography as presented in any number of reliable sources.
    The purpose of the polls is to build consensus on the basis of our mutual knownledge of that commonly known and agreed geography, identify the contradictions and resolve them. It is very simple. The problem is if we have individuals who strongly believe something is right which is wrong, who want something to be in the future that is not in the present, we have to identify that, inform them using the reliable references and resolve the matters with them.
    Why would TFOWR block that from happening and, by digging his heels in forbidding it, cause disruption by doing so? The poll was going ahead perfectly peacefully and was well accepted. --LevenBoy (talk) 17:29, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Just sayin'... TFOWR 17:35, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Irrelevant reference. TFOWR, you're the one rolling out the straw man argument, not me. It's just simple geography the stateman decided a long time ago. The bottomline is, a consensual mandate is an important content and community building tool. Forbidding the poll caused far more disruption than allowing it to run its course. It was counterproductive. --LevenBoy (talk) 18:11, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    The only disruption came from you, LevenBoy - I closed the poll as it had run its course - it was a WP:SNOW close of a pointless poll that was outside WT:BISE's remit anyway. My only regret is that I didn't close it as soon as it opened. My reference was relevant was because it showed you asking How on earth can you say knowledge of constitutional matters are of no relevance when we are discussing and deciding matter of Statehoods? Yet above you claim We are not talking about "constitutional law". There is no need of any knowledge of constitutional law. The diff speaks to your honesty. Which I believe is very relevant in a thread you started about my conduct. TFOWR 18:35, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    The poll had not "run its course". The poll had hardly even started. It was open for less than a day. The purpose was to clearly see what everyone thought, and their level of thought, and to build a clear mandate for consensus. As I have had to caution you, you do not speak for others.
    I think it was a situation where you should "Assumed Good Faith" in the first place and consulted others. There was nothing uncivil or disruptive in the questions. They are entirely pertinent and logical. --LevenBoy (talk) 17:25, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Fox News Channel controversies

    It appears this article has received a large amount of off-wiki requests for editing. The article has had to be protected twice, and I'm pessimistic about its future given the tone on the talk page. The recent RFC is something ridiculous like 250KB, and as you can see above, there is clear evidence of off-site canvassing. Is there some sort of sanctions we can draw up concerning this article without involving ArbCom? I'm afraid I stepped into an ugly mess by protecting this article, a mess I'm not prepared to see through to the finish lest it eat up all my time here. Magog the Ogre (talk) 23:09, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Even ArbCom might not be able to handle such a large case if comments from meatpuppets swamped the case page. I haven't been involved in this, but if it is a very major issue, I'd keep up the fullprot, start a new RfC with clear organization and clear goals, and then hope for consensus some way or another. Then, any editor who breaches the terms of the RfC can be warned, then blocked, without more arguing about. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 00:24, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I would suggest that we place the article (and any related ones, as necessary) under community-based General Sanctions similar to Arbcom Discretionary Sanctions immediately, to head off the problem before it becomes unmanageable. It has been done in the past, with mixed results, but I think it is worth trying in cases of off-wiki collaboration or meatpuppeting. We could either use AN/ANI for enforcement request, or establish a separate sanctions noticeboard, or even revive WP:CSN to handle community-enacted probation enforcement. The WordsmithCommunicate 00:32, 6 October 2010 (UTC) Actually, we could probably apply this to most of the pages in and its subcats, which are almost universally problem articles. The WordsmithCommunicate 00:41, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support Community Sanctions idea WordSmith makes a good argument and its much needed IMO, it will also centralize allow us to centralize and future discussions and actions The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 00:50, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support CS Seems reasonable. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 03:08, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm not convinced that community probation will be helpful here. I'd be happy to endorse the protection in a way that that it doesn't become a centre of controversy, but I don't see the point of us going into this repeated cycle of where we impose this then it eventually needs to go to ArbCom anyway and then ArbCom accepts and then they impose discretionary sanctions which go hand in hand with AE. That's all that I can foresee from the suggestions so far. An alternative is changing this into a Community request that ArbCom impose discretionary sanctions (without, at this time, trying to address specific individual editors, which would be the real time-eater); that seems more suitable for the particular circumstances here. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:24, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • What I'm proposing is not like the failed Climate Change sanctions, rather I want standard discretionary sanctions, but without the months-long hassle of an Arbcom case. The WordsmithCommunicate 04:36, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • The issue is that WP:AE is an AC page; if anything gets confusing or goes wrong, AC puts a lid on it (as they know the circumstances of the case for which they put discretionary sanctions - particularly ones which are especially drafted for a particular topic). When CC probation was enacted, they thought they importing something that was standard (they happened to copy every textual bit of Obama probation, as well as every page) - the reason it failed was for that same reason; what I'd specifically drafted for Obama probation with a specific type of operation doesn't to work in all other disputes; it's not quite-so "standard". Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:08, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support community sanctions. I assume the concern is that ArbCom discretionary sanctions will take too long to handle the ever-mounting piles of unpleasantness over there. I also like the idea that the community acts of its own accord to define certain topics as so contentious that they need to be editing more slowly, carefully, and civilly. It's bad when individual admins try to start imposing such rules, but if there is enough community support to say "Hey! Calm down already!" it seems like a good thing to me. Of course, we'll need wider input for this....Qwyrxian (talk) 04:33, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • This section got prematurely archived, i'm putting it back. What is the next step here? The WordsmithCommunicate 06:41, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • No it didn't; it was archived due to inactivity. A project-wide scheme cannot be put in place on the basis of limited input otherwise the entire project would be free to use discretionary sanctions (in reality, the Community specifically rejected this). The next step is for administrators to demonstrate that they've used all of the tools available to them in this area; that may include making a few proposals in relation to specific editors here with the specific restrictions they have in mind and seeing how the Community respond to these, and in more clear cases, blocks. If it does turn out that all the restrictions that need to be imposed have been via the Community, there's no need for anything else because it's just a handful of editors (some of whom might be treated as a single entity). If it doesn't, that's when your proposal will be ready for enactment. Steps need to be taken before shortcuts can be used. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:11, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • It appears that everyone except you is in favor of some sort of community sanctions scheme, so now we need to determine the exact scope and process for handling issues. If we want to revive CSN, we'll probably need either an RFC or a thread on the Village Pump, to attract a wider consensus. The WordsmithCommunicate 17:14, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support community sanctions. As proposed by The Wordsmith (talk · contribs), with the note about location by NuclearWarfare (talk · contribs). A logical, rational, sensible, and reasonable proposal. -- Cirt (talk) 20:49, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Sanctions

    It looks like we have some sort of consensus that sanctions on this specific article is a good idea. Where do we start? The sanctions must address two things:

    1. The meatpuppetry and WP:SPA's.
    2. The edit warring by long existing parties

    Putting a blanket 1RR sanction would address #2, but not #1. I'm open to ideas. Magog the Ogre (talk) 20:32, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    I think we need to determine specifics for a few different parts of the proposed sanctions, so I have created a few subsections below. The WordsmithCommunicate 01:42, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I've added some initial thoughts at, um, sub-section #Some thoughts below. If anyone wants to move the sub-section somewhere more appropriate, please feel free to do so.  Roger Davies talk 06:22, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Scope

    This proposal seems like it would cover Fox News Channel controversy and related articles, broadly construed. However, we might want to look at expanding it to all "Criticism of..." articles, which are nearly always problematic. The WordsmithCommunicate 01:42, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    How to enforce

    The gist of discretionary sanctions is that any uninvolved admin can do whatever he needs to do to maintain the peace. As far as requesting enforcement, AN/ANI is one possibility, but that place handles enough issues already, and it might be better to have a place where people can respond to complaints while they already have knowledge of the specific sanction. Therefore, I propose reopening Wikipedia:Community sanctions noticeboard as a sort of community-run WP:AE board. I'm posting to the Village Pump to attract wider attention to this issue. The WordsmithCommunicate 01:42, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Some thoughts

    Community-placed discretionary sanctions is a great idea, and a great way to nip disputes in the bud before the parties get too entrenched. However, the purpose of them is to streamline the sanctioning process so it is probably wise to build in a few safeguards. Here are some initial thoughts based on a few messy ArbCom cases:

    Define the area of conflict
    Best to do this broadly and to include talk pages and any Wikipedia process related to articles within the area of conflict.
    Topic bans
    It's best if these explicitly include article talk pages as well as associated Wikipedia processes and their talk pages, widely construed. I know that some people believe that editors should have their say, come what may, but in reality posses of heavily involved editors turning up at AfD, admin talk pages, AN/I, AE etc really games and snarls up Wiki process and so it's best to try to keep them out of the equation.
    Admin discretion
    This means just that. It means that an uninvolved admin can and should act on their discretion, and of their own volition, without having to wait for community consensus or the outcome of a discussion.
    Uninvolved admins
    The enforcement has to be done by admins not only without a dog in the fight but also appearing to have a dog in the fight. Obviously, this means they're not part of the dispute but, less obviously, it means that they don't have a recent history of fraternising with or leaning on one side or the other. This needs spelling out as WP:INVOLVED is not concise enough and perhaps over-nuanced. Perhaps something along the following lines:
    For the purpose of imposing sanctions, an administrator will be considered involved if they have recently or significantly: (i) participated in an editorial dispute with the editor or (ii) interacted personally with the editor, or with other editors with whom that editor is in dispute, or (iii) participated in an editorial capacity in a content dispute affecting the article or related articles within the broader topic. Previous interaction in a purely administrative capacity does not constitute administrator involvement.
    Sanctions
    There are more options that straight blocks and bans so perhaps include some guidance to help admins to get creative. For example:
    The sanctions imposed may include: blocks of up to one year in length; topic-bans applicable to any page or set of pages and their talk pages within the area of conflict; strict revert restrictions for edit-warring; interaction bans for feuding, baiting, and incivility; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project.

    Anyhow, that's my 2/100,  Roger Davies talk 06:14, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • I'm going to echo what Roger Davies has just said: with solid guidelines for the process such as those Roger has suggested, I believe that a community sanction regime, applied to an article or topic area when it becomes clear that there are recurrent problems, has the potential to be very effective in addressing these situations before the situation becomes so entrenched that little short of an Arbitration Committee case will resolve the problems. I think that timeliness of the application of community sanctions is important. If a situation has been going on for years, there may be much more limited success than if community sanctions are applied after only a few weeks or months of problematic editorial behaviour. The earlier that the battlefield mentality is deprecated, the more likely that less combative editors will return to improve the article in encyclopedic manner and repair any damage that may have taken place. Risker (talk) 06:30, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]


    I support proposals taken to reduce edit warring and certainly prevent a repeat of the canvassing/meatpuppetry that took place over the recent RFC (no more RFCs and use of mediation instead seems like an easy solution to prevent or reduce what was basically vote rigging in the recent RFC). How the talkpage is managed though is always a rather delicate issue, what some view as "incivil" others have no problem with and think is perfectly within the rules. The focus should be on the article, not a witch hunt that takes place resulting in editors getting blocks or other sanctions applied for their comments that would be acceptable on other article talkpages but not Fox News related ones. Having such differences between articles on what is and is not allowed causes confusion and can lead to people being caught out accidentally because they think their comments are ok. Any sanctions agreed should certainly include a clear need to provide a warning to advise people their comments are unacceptable on the fox article, before any blocks are applied so they are not caught out by any change in the rules or how the rules are enforced in the area. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:38, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    A new game with the featured article

    Just as a heads up for those admins who don't watch TFA or RfPP, but yesterday (Shield nickel) and today (Convoy GP55) there's been IP vandalism to redirect the TFA to [The Game (mind game)] (intentionally not wikilinked), which has resulted in batches of short semi-protection. It would be helpful if other admins could keep an eye out. Ta. GedUK  08:51, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    It's not just TFA; I reverted this [47] yesterday. Seems to be a variant on rickrolling, might need an edit filter. Acroterion (talk) 12:57, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    And this [48] by the same IP, now blocked. Acroterion (talk) 14:52, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    They need to free themselves: [49] --Golbez (talk) 14:58, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I suspect it is, having read the article, an attempt to make people lose the game, by making our most prominent articles redirect. An edit filter should be fairly simple to do, I'll make a request. GedUK  14:19, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Related: TheGamer123 (talk · contribs). -- zzuuzz (talk) 14:57, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Grr...Aside from the fact that I just lost the game, is an edit filter the best way to handle this? I'm just wondering what would happen if anyone needs to make a legitimate redirect sometime in the future, would there still be a way to do so? Overall, small concern, and assuming an edit filter will do the trick of stopping the redirecting, I'd say go for it and cross the bridge I just mentioned when the time comes. Ks0stm (TCG) 15:08, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    The filter can be set to deny non-autoconfirmed editors and to warn others. Acroterion (talk) 15:31, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Sounds good to me. Thanks for clearing that up. Ks0stm (TCG) 16:57, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Filter 363, set to log only for now, editcount threshold 50. No hits yet. Thanks to EdoDodo. Acroterion (talk) 17:01, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't imagine this will persist, so that's probably all the action we need to take, save for reverting. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 17:05, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Filter got a few hits. Since all of them looked alright and there were no false positives I have gone ahead and changed it to disallow the edit. - EdoDodo talk 20:23, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Damn, I lose! --TS 00:44, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Heh. The edit filter is doing quite a good job of catching the vandalism, and it seems to be quite common (about a dozen hits a day), so I'll leave it enabled. If the filter misses any edits, please let me know, preferably by email. - EdoDodo talk 16:45, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, it's still picking it up. Good work I think! GedUK  11:49, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Uh-huh... GedUK  11:49, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Proposing community ban

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


    Note to closing admins - This should remain open for a bare minimum of 48 hrs per existing community ban best practices, to allow for adequate community notice and review and comment period, then be closed by an uninvolved administrator. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:30, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:SNOW? I wouldn't do it, but it's a point I felt i had to make. NativeForeigner Talk/Contribs 00:29, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    SNOW does not apply to ban discussions. 48 hrs bare minimum, to ensure everyone has their say. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:14, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    The Maiden City is a long-term sockmaster, since his (second) indefinite block 18 months ago. See Category :Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of The Maiden City, Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of The Maiden City and Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/The Maiden City/Archive for details of his sockpuppetry. Current behaviour includes personal attacks, sectarian abuse, anti-Semitic abuse, edit warring, canvassing other editors to edit war on his behalf.

    The contributions from those IPs from today alone should hopefully illustrate the problem. Nobody is likely to be unblocking The Maiden City any time soon, so it should be relatively easy to make this a formal ban? O Fenian (talk) 15:17, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Ban Rich Zubaty

    This situation more or less speaks for itself. Here we have a user that has edited from multiple accounts and ip addresses over the course of the last several years for the sole purpose of getting an article on either himself or his (self-published) book onto Wikipedia. When confronted about the relative notability of himself or his work, he becomes very aggressive and angry, and engages in ridiculous hyperbole, comparing Wikipedia's content and behavioral policies to living under the nazi regime or apartheid, despite the fact that it was people exactly like Mr. Zubaty, who believe in the inherent inferiority of a particular type of human being (in this case women) who headed those regimes. In any event, he refuses to acknowledge and abide by our policies and guidelines despite having them explained to him repeatedly and having been blocked repeatedly. Therefore I propose that Mr. Zubaty be indefinitely banned from editing Wikipedia under any identity or ip address. I have informed Mr. Zubaty I would be taking this action at his current identity's talk page [50] and indicated that any statement he wishes to make here can be copied over from there. (I forget if current consensus is that we do these type of things here or at ANI, if it's ani this week, feel free to move this over there) Beeblebrox (talk) 20:20, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • He was blocked for six months in May, he came back under another ip and edited again after five months. He was told when he was blocked that the duration was six months. He wrote a whole book, I assumed he knew how to count to six. There was no ban, just a block. However, this ban discussion is not so much about block evasion as it is about Mr. Zubaty's attitude and apparent goals being inconsistent with Wikipedia content and behavioral policies. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:06, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Rai Muhammad Saleem Bhatti

    Resolved
     – user turned out to be a sockpuppet being used to evade a block. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:15, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Rai Muhammad Saleem Bhatti continues to make disruptive edits to biographical articles despite all our warnings. The user has made no attempts to communicate. Is the next step a request for comment, mediation, or can this concern be handled here? I went ahead and created Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Rai Muhammad Saleem Bhatti. Marcus Qwertyus 20:24, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    I don't know that i would bother working on the RFC any further. This user has never edited an article talk page and has never responded to any comments on their own talk page. It's kind of hard to come to a voluntary agreement with someone who won't even speak to you. Let's see if he can show at least enough cluefullness to come here and explain themselves. This is a collaborative project, users need to be willing and able to communicate with other users. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:55, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Fair enough. Marcus Qwertyus 03:00, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Went back to check on him, and while combing through his contribs discovered very compelling evidence he is a WP:DUCK of Rai muhammad saleem akram bhatti, therefore now indef blocked for being a block evading sock account. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:15, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    General question

    Given the various things that Wikipedia is not, is there anything that can be done about an editor when 94% of their edits are to Wikipedia space, article talk or user talk, and under 5% are actually article edits? (And no template or category edits at all, but a few to files.) Such an editor seems to be here to discuss, or push a POV, not to improve the encyclopedia. Can anything be done, or is everything dependent on there being bad behavior from the editor? Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:43, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    To the point: That sort of editing distribution wouldn't be surprising if an editor primarily contributed media (sounds, pictures) and did some related WP space work, such as helping with the featured sound or featured picture candidates. Gimmetoo (talk) 00:08, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I take it you are not going to tell us who you are talking about? Anyway, if there is no "bad behavior" then why should we "do something" to them? Sure, it would be nice if fewer folks spent their entire time here griping and fighting and actually worked on the encyclopedia instead, but i don't believe there is any rule that says they have to. If you can provide evidence that they are here to push some POV agenda that is another matter, but if they just don't work on articles but aren't actually causing a disruption it's probably best to just ignore them as much as possible. Beeblebrox (talk) 07:49, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    You could ask them if they have considered running for adminship - nobody misses my article contributions... LessHeard vanU (talk) 08:42, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Those willing to spend a lot of time sorting out the mechanics of wikipedia, resolving disputes, helping other users, etc. are just as valuable as those who contribute large amounts of content to the encyclopaedia. You're proposing we sanction constructive editors who happen to do most of their work out of article space? You may as well start with me then (and LessHeard vanU) Sorry for volunteering you there ;). GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 08:47, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    My pie slice is pretty close to what you're describing, actually. sonia 09:06, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Mine comes a hell of a lot closer. When I first read this post I was almost certain the OP was talking about me. Though art the man as Nathan said to David. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 11:35, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Mind you, this is not the venue to get a really project wide range of opinions - mostly because a lot of the people who may take the alternative view to those expressed above are occupied in the writing of content. ;~) LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:02, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • @LHVU: Yes... well, I wasn't thinking about admins, who obviously have legitimate reasons to spend a lot of time in places other than mainspace - although, even there, I think the best admins remain well-involved with article editing, which is (after all) our core. In any event, what other venue would you recommend as a place to get a wider range of views? Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:30, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Some people [who?] might consider that now the encyclopedia has grown so rapidly, it has reached a "Maintenance Phase" and as such article edits are less crucial. I seem to recall this being discussed over at everyone's favourite website for the mentally un-hinged rather more sanely then on Wikipedia as it goes. The irony was delightful. Pedro :  Chat  21:17, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    The obvious flaw in the maintenance phase argument is that the overwhelming majority of wikipedia's articles are complete shite. Why have a corps of knights janitors dedicated to the maintenance of shite? Malleus Fatuorum 22:02, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I guess it is so that all articles either do not become more shitty (this applies to all of them - good or bad) or are flushed down the toilet. Airplaneman 22:20, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Well there are always WP:Alternative outlets. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 22:06, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    And the relevance of your comment with that rather unhelpful and insulting blue link is what? Malleus Fatuorum 22:09, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Just letting you know that if you want to call all of our collective contributions "shite", no one's forcing you to contribute to the project. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 22:19, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, if you do NPP, you do run into a lot of this. Airplaneman 22:23, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Seconded. My contributions to the improvement of WP is by (gently) nudging articles that have to business here out the back door. This typically involves me tagging an article and dropping notices on the author's talk page. This means that I'm getting about 1~3 User talk notices for every mainspace edit? Does this make me a bad WikiPedian? Hasteur (talk) 14:19, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    It seems that the learned GiftigerWunsch is of the opinion that my time would be better spent elsewhere, and he may well be right. His reasoning is faulty on several levels though, but I can't be bothered to argue with him. Malleus Fatuorum 23:30, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • The concept that we are in the maintenance phase by no means is meant to indicate that Wikipedia is "finished" and just needs upkeep. The idea is that, for the most part, we already have article on subjects that are actually notable. It's also true that many of those articles suck ass and need lots of help. The problem is that instead of helping our existing articles most new users, and some very experienced ones as well, just want to keep creating new articles so they have bragging rights or whatever, and will stretch the concept of notability to rather absurd extremes in order that they might be allowed to keep creating articles instead of working on the several million articles that are already in dire need of cleanup, better sourcing, etc. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:42, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Indeed; unfortunately while randomly looking up some random terms I want extra information about, I almost invariably find myself making at least a few clean-up edits to that article while doing so. Without the many editors dedicated to helping clean up articles, as well as helping to resolve conflicts which would lead to serious problems in mainspace, I shudder to think what description Malleus might reserve for wikipedia. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 22:50, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • (Reply to Beeblebrox) It's an awful lot more more work to improve an article than it is to write a new one, and as you say, it comes with far fewer bragging rights. Little wonder that so many prefer to write new crap. Malleus Fatuorum 23:43, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Sorry, I disagree. Obviously a stub is ripe for expansion and improvement. A more mature article may require more work to sort out the wheat from the chaff, and a willingness to grasp the topic at hand, realise what is and what is not important to a reader's understanding of the topic; but doing that really only requires some general knowledge and an ability to take the time to work on it. This is not only a learning process on the part of the editor, but also is a valuable input into improving "defective" articles". Maybe not an ideal development process, but at least a step forward, if done properly. But my experience is that such steps will only be taken by those with the confidence in their own ability so to do. So bald statements about competence really do not help. Rodhullandemu 00:26, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Who are you disagreeing with? Malleus Fatuorum 00:44, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    You mean you don't know? Rodhullandemu 00:47, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    No I don't know, so I ask you again. Who were you disagreeing with? Malleus Fatuorum 01:07, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm guessing both you and Giftiger. There is really no use arguing over this; it is a waste of time better spent elsewhere, helping this encyclopedia become less shitty. Airplaneman 02:31, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Responding to the original poster (& ignoring a lot of unhelpful comments), I think the most important factor in your hypothetical situation lies in your comment, "Such an editor seems to be here to discuss, or push a POV, not to improve the encyclopedia." If someone's intent is not to improve the encyclopedia, then it really doesn't matter where they are active: we don't want them. I only hope that anyone betraying this intent in meta space will be shown the door faster than in any topic area. On the other hand, if they are contributing in apparent good faith, that will make matters more difficult to resolve. -- llywrch (talk) 05:43, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    When I saw the original question, I was immediately reminded of a certain editor who contributes almost nothing to the encyclopedia other than jokes and pure personal opinion, especially at ANI. I have occasionally brought this up, but for some reason this person seems to be too popular to get even an ANI ban through against them. The editor is apparently part of a subculture that seems to be forming around WP:Reference desk. (There is nothing wrong with the reference desk, but involvement in that doesn't qualify anyone for discussions related to encyclopedic content or behaviour of editors in article space, and is most certainly not an excuse for consistently providing personal opinion where rational arguments are required.) Hans Adler 10:37, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    If you have concerns about an editors motives / intentions then you should be glad that 94% of their edits are on talkpages where they can do no damage to the article content itself without others assisting them. Out of control talkpages with POV flying around in all directions is in my opinion far less problematic than an editor making a large number of POV edits to articles which seriously undermines wikipedias status as a neutral source of information. There are no rules about how much or how little someone need contribute to this project, its all voluntary. If they have not violated the rules, they have not done anything wrong. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:59, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Alphathon made me fear getting blocked

    GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 14:03, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Defining "involved admin" more explicitly

    I've started a discussion on this with a draft proposal here.  Roger Davies talk 10:07, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]