Wikipedia:Education noticeboard

Welcome to the education noticeboard
Purpose of this page Using this page This page is for discussion related to student assignments and the Wikipedia Education Program. Please feel free to post, whether you're from a class, a potential class, or if you're a Wikipedia editor. Topics for this board might include: Content issues created by real or potential student assignments Improving student assignment output quality per the RfC Questions about the trainings or any question from instructors or students Discussion of the Wiki Education Foundation or the Wikipedia Education Program. Students who have done great work and need {{The Excellent New Editor's Barnstar}} Of course, we should remain civil towards all participants and assume good faith. There are other pages more appropriate for dealing with certain specific issues: An issue requiring immediate administrator attention → Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents Vandalism by non-participating students from schools → administrator intervention against vandalism. Cut-and-paste moves/history merge → the cut-and-paste move repair holding pen. Students revealing sensitive personal information → requests for oversight. Please DO NOT make such requests here; reports here are visible to everyone. Course announcements from dashboard.wikiedu.org / outreachdashboard.wmflabs.org → /Wiki Ed course submissions Issues related to dashboard.wikedu.org / outreachdashboard.wmflabs.org → meta:Talk:Programs & Events Dashboard For a list of topics that students should avoid editing → Wikipedia:General sanctions#Active sanctions "Start a new discussion thread". Use an informative title: ==Informative title==. If a thread is related to an ongoing discussion, consider placing it under a level-3 heading within that existing discussion. You should generally notify any user who is the subject of a discussion. You may use {{ping}} to do so, or simply link their username when you post your comment. It is not required to contact students when their edits are only being discussed in the context of a class-wide problem. If no comments have been made within 30 days, your post and any responses will be automatically archived. Please sign all contributions, using four tilde characters "~~~~". If discussion is already ongoing elsewhere or if there is a more natural location for a discussion, please continue the discussion there, and put a short note with a link to the relevant location on this page. If you cannot edit this page because it is protected, please place your comments on this page and they will be addressed. Managing threads If you'd like to make sure a thread does not get archived automatically after 30 days, use {{Do not archive until}} at the top of the section. Use {{User:ClueBot III/ArchiveNow}} within a section to have it archived (more or less) immediately. A brief Archives page lists them with the years in which those now inactive discussions took place.
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Concern about an AFD

I have some concerns about this AFD that might need some assistance. An editor has worked on the article (and not much else) since August but has said it is part of an assignment for Coastal Carolina University and that he is one of 125 "travel" students who have been assigned to write articles (an assignment apparently suspended pending the outcome of the AFD).

I'm not sure how credible the claim is (or whether it is an elaborate AFD ruse) but I thought if there was some way someone could contact the university... If it is legit, the lecturer (and his/her students) could do with some assistance. If it's not, a quick call/email to the uni should sort it. Would appreciate suggestions. Stalwart111 14:04, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

User:JMathewson (WMF), can't we have that google spreadhsheet with the colleges and Regional Ambassadors on Wikipedia? That would help make things like this more efficient, in my opinion. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 14:08, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Also, who is the private "+ 1 more" person who can view that spreadsheet currently besides you and the Regional Ambassadors? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 14:09, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Stalwart, I don't see it on that spreadsheet. Is it on anyone else's radar? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 14:13, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

It seems like Wiki Voyage is an appropriate place for this. If the instructor/students are doing a project with a sister project, then there isn't always going to be the communication between the class and this part of Wikimedia. I have experience working with Wikinews. But perhaps if we find out who the instructor is then that course/instructor/students could be "gently" directed to the more appropriate site with a contact there. Just a suggestion, Crtew (talk) 15:17, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

No, this isn't a class I've ever heard of or known anything about, though I'm happy to try and contact the professor. @Biosthmors: There are privacy issues with almost all of that information in that spreadsheet. What information do you want available on-wiki? The non-RA person on the spreadsheet is probably Sage, as I shared it with him a while back, but I don't think he's on the RA listserv anymore. JMathewson (WMF) (talk) 17:28, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Everything but the private info. =) I'm assuming the real names of the professors is not private, though, right? Brian Carver edits anonymously, though he still runs assignments. So this would be Institution, Professor name, Class name (such as a link to the course page), and Regional Ambassador username (I think the real name should be disclosed to the Professor, with the understanding it might get to the students), if one has been assigned. If the subheadings were the 10 regions (aren't there 10), then that would be awesome. And actually that should serve as the place where Regional Ambassadors should be listed (assuming we don't redesign the Ambassador program after the WEF spin-off). That's something for a RfC, in my opinion. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 18:01, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Jumping in randomly here, I do not think you could anonymize the list well enough to preserve privacy. If you know a USA person's zipcode,, date of birth and gender, you can probably personally identify them based on that alone. There is also the seminal case described here. Unless there is a compelling reason otherwise, I cannot see a reason for them to share personally identifying information. --LauraHale (talk) 19:58, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure anyone suggested that kind of fine grain detail—just classes, colleges, and regions (and maybe names?), which would be the bare necessities for the program anyway czar ♔ 23:36, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

User:LauraHale, the Regional Ambassadors are now required to post real-life names in Wikimedia space. I oppose this requirement. But I support a requirement for publicly available real names for instructors who run Wikipedia assignments per WP:ASSIGN, which describes when contact with the instructors can become necessary. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 12:50, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

@ Biosthmors , What information do you particularly want in the database that you do not have access to for privacy reasons and why? Can you explain the need and how you would deal with potential privacy related issues for students? (This is something I am very curious about given that I am working on English Wikinews to create a formal education program.) I'm personally fine with users being required to post their real names when interacting with classes, but this largely stems from general experiences on Wikinews, solving problems with credibility and accountability. --LauraHale (talk) 13:05, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

LauraHale, I have access to the document. I want the community to have access to a list that would include the Institution, Professor name, Class name (such as a link to the course page), and Regional Ambassador username (I think the real name should be disclosed to the Professor, with the understanding it might get to the students), if one has been assigned. If the subheadings were the 10 regions (aren't there 10), then that would be awesome. And actually that should serve as the place where Regional Ambassadors should be listed (assuming we don't redesign the Ambassador program after the WEF spin-off). That's something for a RfC, in my opinion. (I stated this above.) I think you are mistaken when you start asking for explanations about how this would create privacy concerns for the students, because I am suggesting nothing of the sort. As for users, Online Ambassadors are not required to post their real names, and I strongly support this position. JMathewson (WMF), could we get that list on Wikipedia? Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 16:43, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

@Biosthmors: The reason that information isn't on a separate WP page as of now is because we used to have pages with that type of course information, but the extension essentially replaced it. If you go to the Courses list, you can find the class name, professor, and institution. It's basically the same information minus the personal contact information in the RA database. Hopefully with the new changes to the extension, there will be a "coordinator" role, which RAs can take. We were really just trying to minimize the number of pages that 1) don't get used and 2) duplicate other ones. What's the reason for wanting a new one on WP? The RA database as it stands is for you guys to have contact info (which we can't post here). What pieces are missing from the extension? JMathewson (WMF) (talk) 17:39, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

See here where Sage connects the dots for people? This info should be public, in my opinion. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 16:16, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Would me posting the real names of professors be WP:OUTING? If so, why does the WMF think it is OK to force volunteer Regional Ambassadors to reveal their real names? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 12:57, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Company?

• I now believe the reason nobody has been made aware of this "class" is that the class itself doesn't exist. One of our clever colleagues just pointed out that the "student" in question has a username that just happens to be the same as the CEO of the company being written about. The blog on the company's site makes a similar claim about the article being written as a "university paper" but attributes the work to group of Florida students instead. The story is starting to fall apart. Stalwart111 03:09, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Weird. I haven't looked into it myself, but thank you for your vigilance. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 12:47, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Campus Ambassador application: Birajkarmakar

Birajkarmakar (talk · contribs)

1. Why do you want to be a Wikipedia Ambassador?

   As a lover of wikipedia, i want to join it.also I want to help recruit new Wikipedia contributors on campus,Organize engaging on-campus events to encourage editing (and continued editing) of Wikipedia,think of creative ways for promoting Wikipedia in my region etc.

2. Where are you based, and which educational institution(s) do you plan to work with as a Campus Ambassador?

   Dr.B.C.Roy Engineering College,Durgapur,West Bengal,India

3. What is your academic and/or professional background?

   B.Tech, 4th year

4. In three sentences or less, summarize your prior experience with Wikimedia projects.

   I am great lover of wikipedia. Always read wikipedia documents for particular Searching.I know how to edit wikipedia.

5. What else should we know about you that is relevant to being a Wikipedia Ambassador?

   myself mozilla reps also foss evangelist.

@OhanaUnited, Neelix, Ktr101, Pharos, and Pongr: @Sleuthwood, Etlib, Daniel Simanek, Biosthmors, and Kayz911: @DStrassmann, Rjensen, Bluerasberry, and Kevin Gorman: --Birajkarmakar (talk) 10:12, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

• Support Looks like they will benefit with the rights. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 15:50, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Kevin Rutherford, could you edit your name in the origin spot of the automated post above so your name (Ktr101) will eventually match in times like this? I'm not sure, without looking first, how one would do this, though. Best. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 10:09, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

And User:JMathewson (WMF), could you please remove Daniel Simanek from that list? He is out of the program. Is anyone else no longer an active Regional Ambassador? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 10:11, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

• Not yet. No demonstrated commitment to the project. User:Birajkarmakar, could you not join Wikipedia first as a volunteer? That way you'll learn things like what is listed at WP:ASSIGN. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 12:53, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Campus Ambassador application: Aashaa

Aashaa (talk · contribs)

1. Why do you want to be a Wikipedia Ambassador?

   As a Wikipedia Ambassador i get enough great chance for promoting and developing wiki culture to my University Students and friends. I am a graduate student of International Relations of my University. I have more then 3 years experience as a contributor of my Bengali Language wikipedia. As a campus ambassador, i enjoy share my experience to develop more information in Bangla and Bangladesh related pages at English Wikipedia.

2. Where are you based, and which educational institution(s) do you plan to work with as a Campus Ambassador?

   I'm from Dhaka, Bangladesh. Presently, i'm a student of Department of International Relations, University of Dhaka, which has more then 30 thousands students and a notable University at Bangladesh.

3. What is your academic and/or professional background?

   I complete my undergraduate study on International Relations, i've earned a Honors degree Bachelor in Social Science. Now, i study in Graduate level of International Relations at My university. I've work as a freelancer journalist on Science, Technology, Youth, Development and Education at Daily Prothom Alo, a national newspaper of Bangladesh. I also joined with open source software movement at Bangladesh.

4. In three sentences or less, summarize your prior experience with Wikimedia projects.

   Since 2009, i've got a new window of learning & sharing of what i know. Prior experience with different Wikimedia projects helps me to get various types of different informations about me, myself, my world.

5. What else should we know about you that is relevant to being a Wikipedia Ambassador?

   At my university, i've connection with more then 10 student club and 5 more societies, which helps me to get more interaction for establishment a great wiki culture at University of Dhaka.

@OhanaUnited, Neelix, Ktr101, Pharos, and Pongr: @Sleuthwood, Etlib, Daniel Simanek, Biosthmors, and Kayz911: @DStrassmann, Rjensen, Bluerasberry, and Kevin Gorman: --Aashaa (talk) 19:21, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

that is exactly the skill set we need to promote Wikipedia there. Let me ask what language will be used in Wiki-oriented courses at the University of Dhaka--English in the English Wiki or what?? Rjensen (talk) 19:53, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

At University of Dhaka both English (as a medium of university degree) and Bengali language (as native language) will be used. Besides this, every year a thousand of students learn Japanese, French and Spanish from the language institute of the university. This may be a good tool for wikipedia!--Aashaa (talk) 03:46, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

I recommend writing just for the English language Wikipedia. Rjensen (talk) 04:10, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your recommendation. I hope i do a good amount of work for this.--Aashaa (talk) 04:41, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

@Rjensen:Hold up! Why do you recommend this? The Bangla community is awesome. Why should school groups not contribute to the local language? Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:23, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Dear, @ Blue Rasberry i'm directly involved at the various work of Bangla Wikipedia Community. In my University i've great chance to involvement to engage more pupil for both in English and Bangla Wikipedia. I already initiated a assignment group on developing Bangladesh, Dhaka and University of Dhaka related wiki pages with information and images. Next January 2014, I'll start my M. Phil program which related on international relations and international media. This scopes helps me to generate university knowledge and information about the local wikipedia and also for English wikipedia. I've a sincere contribution to my local language. To generate local information toward global information i am now contributing in english!--Aashaa (talk) 19:25, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

User:Aashaa - as you like! If you wish to contribute in English then do so, and you can contribute in Bangla if you wish. Blue Rasberry (talk) 19:37, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Have you met any of the Wikipedians in Dhaka? You must have, if you have been working on Bangla Wikipedia for so long. One of the projects we are discussing is meta:Grants:IEG/Colours of Bangladesh. I think that this group my be interested in partnering with you. I may also be able to help with this. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:48, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes! Since 2008, from the beginning of my University life- i met and close connection with a lot of Wikipedians in Dhaka. Wikipedia Administrator in Bangla Ragib, Bellayet, Nasir8891 &Wikitanvir; and Wikimedia Bangladesh's president munirhasan with senior Wikipedians like nhasive and many other more are very known to me for promoting and developing Wikipedia Culture and more wiki related activities in Bangladesh and a little in India. You could visit my contribution [[1]]! I already heard about the project and ready to act as a volunteer. Yes, you are right-we, the wikipedians as a group complete this types of initiative. I attended as a junior contributor of [Wikipedia Unconference 2012] . Beside this i was attened as a speaker and act as a demonstrator of Wikipedia Seminar at University of Rajshahi, 300 KM away from another old capital city of Bangladesh, at last winter. At July 2012, i visit India office of Wikimedia Foundation at New Delhi, India. There i saw a lots of campus young and enthusiastic Ambassador. Since then i herad abouth this program and warmly waiting for the next step..--Aashaa (talk) 15:56, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

I would love to see the education program become more established at the U of D. I just gave you the userright to be a campus volunteer. If you ever find a professor and class who would be willing to try to do a Wikipedia assignment, or if you ever want to talk about this program more, then contact me and I will help you with it. Blue Rasberry (talk) 19:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Dear, i've already connected with four university professor and associate professor who are asking me to do Wikipedia assignment through their class at University of Dhaka. I could connect with them to you through email. My university teacher are very serious about this. That i asked for the User Right of Campus Ambassador. You probably know here in Bangladesh its little tough to work without any authorization of institution for do any types of work in University and many other government institutions. Its good to hear that being a campus volunteer, i need to do work more initiative for the great position of First Wikipedia Campus Ambassador of University of Dhaka! Thanks for your support. I'll quickly connect you through email.--Aashaa (talk) 19:52, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Update from Wiki Education Foundation October 2013

The main news for this update is that we have job descriptions for the program manager and executive director positions, and we'd like to get feedback on them. We have offered the program manager position to Jami Mathewson, and she has accepted; the start date will be November 1. We'd have preferred to get feedback on the PM job description before offering it to Jami, but the WMF is going to stop funding her as of October 31 and we felt it was necessary to make an offer immediately we had the job description agreed to by the board. That's not to say that the job description can't be improved by feedback given here, of course. The job descriptions are below. I'll be away for the weekend and will only have intermittent access to a computer so I may not be able to respond to any comments till Sunday night. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:11, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

So these aren't job openings, really, right? You already have people in mind you want to hire. Sounds like WMF already has their minds made up. Good luck! Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 18:51, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

There's nobody in mind for the ED post; just the PM. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:25, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

How does one apply for either post? Who makes the hiring decisions - the board of the WEF? Where can I see a list of all people who work for the WEF? Thanks, I will email this around. Blue Rasberry (talk) 00:28, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I too would be interested to know, as I am going to be job searching soon. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 03:03, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I'll post an email address to send resumes and a cover letter to shortly; just checking with the board to see who will receive them, and to see if there's anything else we'll request. Blue Rasberry: the WEF has no employees at the moment, though Jami Mathewson will soon be an employee (I hope). The hiring decision will be made by the board, which is Diana Strassman (chair), PJ Tabit (treasurer), Mike Christie (secretary), Chanitra Bishop, Bob Cummings, Richard Knipel, and Annie Lin. I only have limited time to post this morning but will come back later and link those names to their user pages. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:55, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

PJ suggested that we hold off on applications until we get feedback on the job description for the ED, and possibly revise it in the light of that feedback; we ought to have a stable job description before inviting applicants. That seems sensible to me. I will however post here how to apply when I have that information. In the meantime, please let us know how the job description could be improved. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:42, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Mike. :) I'm excited to work for the WEF—I know we've been in a really weird limbo over the last year while trying to not make too many changes in the midst of figuring out who will coordinate the program. This is going to be a great opportunity to take all the feedback you guys have given and to continue getting feedback about ways we can improve the student experience when editing Wikipedia as well as the volunteer experience. Whenever there's an ED posting, after taking into account all of the feedback, we'll definitely want to reach out here to get the most qualified candidates for the role. Cheers to a fun road ahead. :) JMathewson (WMF) (talk) 19:42, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Congratulations JMathewson! We need somebody who has knowledge of the WEP and can with the community support take this to the next level! I think that's what we all want. Crtew (talk) 04:06, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

WEF Program Manager job description

Reports to: Executive Director

Scope of work

The program manager is responsible for:

• registering participating professors, classes, and Wikipedia Ambassadors;
• recruiting, managing, supporting, and evaluating Wikipedia Ambassadors;
• monitoring program activity to ensure that assignments run smoothly and successfully;
• supporting the training of Wikipedia Ambassadors, including updating and maintaining online training, fostering communication between experienced and new Wikipedia ambassadors, and answering questions as needed;
• helping to develop and execute ongoing evaluation of all facets of the education program, including student contributions, ambassador support, and professor participation;
• addressing concerns raised by stakeholders;
• developing partnerships with mission-aligned organizations and academic institutions;
• working with the executive director to improve the self-sustainability, effectiveness, reach and diversity of the education program; and
• managing public outreach and press inquiries.

Deliverables

The program manage will:

• provide regular reports on progress toward goals, established in consultation with the executive director, for recruiting and on-boarding professors and ambassadors;
• provide a monthly report to the executive director describing progress, changes, successes, and problems/challenges/concerns in the program; and
• conduct annual program evaluation using metrics/goals established in consultation with the executive director.

Qualifications

Required:

• experience coordinating and mentoring volunteers;
• strong oral, written, and interpersonal communication skills;
• demonstrated ability to work independently and meet deadlines with limited supervision;
• experience editing Wikipedia.

Preferred:

• experience with the Wikipedia Education Program;
• ability to use SAS, Stata, Access, or similar programs to conduct basic data collection and analysis;
• ability to use social media (e.g. Facebook, Twitter) to advance the mission of the WEF;
• experience collaborating with many stakeholders with sometimes conflicting opinions to advance shared goals.

Comments

You say "preferred: experience with the Wikipedia Education Program". Could someone who is in charge of hiring for this position make a guess at how many people have enough experience to meet this qualification? Surely just passing experience or one term of experience is not significant, right? How many people exist in the world who have enough experience to matter? Of that population - how many might one guess to have analytics experience of the sort preferred? 50%? 5%? Thanks. Blue Rasberry (talk) 00:19, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I doubt there are very many people with experience with the EP; that's partly why it's preferred, not required, though it's also true that it could be learned on the job more quickly than some of the required skills. The analytics skills, to me, are preferred not required because they're less central to the role -- it's important, but those skills could be acquired on the job or even, at a pinch, farmed out to someone else. That's not true of some of the requirements such as strong communications skills. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:59, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

• I see nothing about helping improving the quality of Wikipedia:Student assignments. Why is that? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 16:16, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

  I take it you mean improving the quality of student assignments, not of the linked article? If so, I'm not sure what you're driving it -- do you mean that improving the quality of what the students produce should be a goal? I think we have to settle for intermediate steps -- improving the resources we provide to professors and students. Obviously the better work the students produce, the better off the encyclopedia is, so I'm not disagreeing with the end goal. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:46, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

• And why is there nothing about working in tandem with the Wikipedia community, whether they are ambassadors or not? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 16:18, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

  Can you clarify? Obviously the PM has to work with the community: there will be communication back and forth. But a great deal of what the PM does is invisible to the community -- phone and email exchanges with the professors, answering inquiries, writing and reviewing resources. Do you have some wording you would like to suggest as part of the job description? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:46, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

WEF Executive Director job description

Reports to: Board of Directors

Scope of work

The executive director is responsible for:

• working closely with the board of directors to develop the organization's strategic plan;
• directing the transition of operations from WMF to WEF;
• overseeing the organization's annual operations, including implementation of annual plan;
• providing strong fiscal management;
• leading initiatives to engage stakeholders;
• establishing with the board of directors annual fundraising goals and ensuring that those goals are met;
• setting annual numeric goals with the program manager to ensure measurable programmatic expansion; and
• overseeing the development of the organization’s key messages.

Deliverables

The executive director will:

• work with the board of directors to develop both annual and short-term (three-year) strategic plans;
• provide a monthly report to the WEF board of directors summarizing program activity and metrics as well as fundraising progress; and,
• raise, with assistance from the board of directors, approximately $600,000 in the first year.

Qualifications

Required:

• demonstrated record of fundraising success and possession of a network of donors who may be interested in WEF's work;
• organizational skills, including ability to successfully design and develop projects and provide metrics-driven outcomes analysis;
• management skills including budgeting, time management, goal setting, and human resources capabilities; and,
• exceptional communication and presentation skills, both verbal and written.

Preferred:

• advanced degree;
• work experience (preferably as an instructor or administrator) in institution of higher education;
• background in program evaluation, preferably in the field of education;
• proven ability to find creative and effective solutions in situations with limited resources; and,
• at least seven years of work experience in not-for-profit setting.

WEF ED comments

• Where did the figure of $600,000 come from? And why? It's remarkably specific, given that everything else here remains so undetermined and vague. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 23:47, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

• The $600k figure was determined based on several factors, including what is required to meet WEF's annual expenses, an estimate of additional funds needed to put it on sound financial footing, and an estimate, based on the recommendation of an expert, of what would be a reasonable amount for our organization to raise in its first year. Pjthepiano (talk) 02:25, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

• Your grant proposal bid lists your expenses as $147,570 for six months (most of which is salaries, a fact eloquently criticized by Mike Cline here). I take it you then quadrupled that figure by four to come up with $600k and so two years' worth of funding? Your grant proposal also dedicates $10k to fundraising, with the notion that you will hire a consultant to help--in addition to the Program Director, who is now (it seems) essentially going to be a full-time fundraiser. Have you hired a consultant yet, and has this indeed informed these calculations? --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 16:47, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks for the reply, @Jbmurray:. As I noted on the grant talk page, it is not unusual or inappropriate for labor costs (staff salaries) to make up the bulk of the budget for an organization like ours. Our major output as an organization is staff support for the education program. It would be strange, I think, if at this point in the WEF's development the bulk of our costs were for something other than labor. In addition, as I've noted here and elsewhere, as the organization grows, we will be able to devote additional resources to other priorities and staff salaries as a percentage of the overall budget will fall. To your second point, your arithmetic is correct, but I think you've missed the point. We hope to improve the education program by doing, among other things, supporting more research, conducting more evaluations, expanding access to the program, improving instructional materials and course designs, supporting ambassadors, etc. All of these things take resources. I think it'd be a mistake to underinvest in the program and then turn around and wonder why it didn't do better. And to your final point, you are mixing up positions. The Program Manager (Jami) is solely focused on programmatic work. The Executive Director is focused on fundraising, strategic planning, etc. We have not yet hired a fundraising consultant. However, we have received input on these issues from both fundraisers at the WMF and independent consultants. Pjthepiano (talk) 04:01, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Ah yes, it is indeed the Executive Director whom you see as mainly devoted to fundraising. Which makes things even more circular, as they're mainly raising funds for their own salary. It does all seem rather inefficient. (In my experience, by the way, which is in the Arts, it's the Board who are expected either to raise funds or to donate them themselves. The usual phrase for board members is "Give it, get it, or get off.") --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 13:24, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

It's actually a standard practice in the nonprofit world for the executive director to be heavily focused on fundraising. We do plan for the ED to be supported in his/her work by the Board; however, as I've said, we have been advised by numerous fundraising professionals that if we don't have an ED who can raise organization-sustaining amounts of money, we will fail. As you know, we have placed a great importance on having a Board that represents the interests of Wikipedians, academics, ambassadors, and others. The individuals that best represent each of those constituencies may or may not have access to (or have on their own) the money the WEF will need to survive. I think if we had said that WEF Board members needed to raise or donate $100k per year or be kicked off the Board, you'd be railing against us here on the ENB for only accepting wealthy people. I think if you look at how other organizations function, you'll find that what we are proposing is a standard practice in successful operations. Pjthepiano (talk) 22:38, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Pjthepiano, enough of this talk of "rail[ing]." I'm merely pointing out my own experience with non-profits, and trying to get you guys to expand on what you have in mind. It's called communication! No need to bristle so. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 04:04, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

I apologize. I didn't mean to characterize your current talk as "railing." What I meant was that if we had set conditions (e.g. requiring them to donate or raise $100k) that would limit Board service only to wealthy people then you would be criticizing us for that also (appropriately, in my opinion). I'll admit I am frustrated by our discussion since we have already debated many of these issues (e.g. proportion of the budget going to labor costs) at length on this and other pages. Could we move on to new items? Pjthepiano (talk) 13:18, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, I think that the topic has been discussed very little here. And elsewhere it was only discussed (and briefly at that) in the context of your grant proposal. Indeed, your model for how the WEF should operate in general has basically hardly been discussed at all. It's about time there were some discussion, shy though the WEF may be of such debates. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 20:19, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

I've no intention of being shy of such debates, though I probably haven't always responded to your comments as fully as I might. I'll have to plead pressure of time as at least a partial excuse. I would love to see such a discussion here; in fact LauraHale, below, asks related questions -- and by discussion I don't just mean that people ask questions and WEF board members respond: I mean that I'd like to see non-WEF-board-members engaging with each other and coming to consensus on these points. The more discussion on this topic the better, as far as I'm concerned. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:45, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I'll add that the goal for the board has always been to be representative, rather than to be a fund-raising board, and I still think that's the right approach. The byelaws give us the option of four or five appointed seats in addition to the elected ones. These were conceived as a way to bring in expertise the board might be lacking -- financial controls, educational design, whatever -- but I think appointing people with fundraising abilities ("give" or "get", in jbm's terms) would be a good idea. There's also been a suggestion that we could have an advisory board which would be made up of prominent figures who would be able to help us fundraise; that hasn't been discussed much yet but I'm sure it will be. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:05, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

The problem here is that if the board aims to be representative, it's nowhere near that aim... and you admit it won't get close for some time. The current members are there out of WMF selection or self-selection, there has been no attempt to replace the various members who have left over the past year or so (except by putting in an ex-WMF staffer). Yet if you were to move towards a representative model, you might soothe some of your current problems. I don't see much reason why you don't make at least a gesture towards representativity now. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 20:19, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

What do you have in mind? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:48, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Quite specifically, I have mentioned a) that you need to have some kind of links with the Educational Technologists. Among the names I've raised have been Jim Groom and Brian Lamb, but there are others; and b) someone who is prominent in Digital Humanities, and here I've specifically suggested Cathy Davidson. But you do need to figure out what this board is for. It's not even close to representative at the moment, and doesn't seem to have much other logic, either. It's a group of those chosen by or formerly employed by the WMF. And their track record has not always been good, as we know. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 23:45, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

The names you suggest could be candidates for appointed seats; there wasn't much discussion of them when you first suggested them, because we were nowhere near ready to talk about appointed board members, but I've passed the names along to the board again now. With luck the educational professionals on the board will know more about those disciplines and those names than I do. I think I do know what the board is for, and one of its jobs is to be representative; I agree it's not very representative so far -- we have members of the constituencies we want to represent, but they weren't chosen by a democratic process. What do you suggest to make the board more representative, prior to the elections? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:45, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm not jbmurray, but he would be a good person to have on the board in an instructor slot. That would (COI) leave me a slot. ;-) User:Pharos seems to be more of a "Wikimedia Chapter" person than an "English Wikipedia" person, I would argue. So that might be a concern, but honestly, I don't know. Pharos could do a great job of representing the Wikipedia community and I wouldn't know it because I'm not privy to the board conversations. It doesn't appear they are very active on the education noticeboard, at least. That, to me, does raise a bit of concern. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 23:03, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I have no special interest in serving on the board, at least as the organization is currently constituted. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 23:45, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

jbmurray, do you have any people you would like to see on the board? Or does anyone who is a current member concern you in any way? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 23:06, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

See above as to who I'd recommend. As to who concerns me: We know so little about most of the members of the board, who have barely interacted here, it's hard to say. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 23:45, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Pjthepiano, I'm not sure how specific you want to get, but I'm curious what kind of evaluations you have in mind, what kind of support to ambassadors you imagine, and what you mean by expanding access. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 10:04, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

@Biosthmors: I think that's an important and productive question. When we spoke on Skype a few weeks ago, I emphasized how I think we need to have a discussion about what the appropriate metrics are for the program. Right now, however, we're operating on some tight deadlines trying to orchestrate the hand off from the WMF to the WEF so could we table that discussion for a bit? For now, if you could give us feedback on the ED and PM job descriptions that'd be great. Once we get some of these administrative things running smoothly, I agree that we need to turn our attention back to the issues you've raised. Pjthepiano (talk) 22:47, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

• Why would this position be more valuable to the movement than, say, the Executive Director of the Wikimedia Foundation? Remember how the Chapters Association was told to go back to the drawing board when they proposed an ED position that paid half this much? And, absent some major external fundraising, how is the WEF in a position to offer to pay this much? This seems quite a bit of cart-before-the-horse. Risker (talk) 00:49, 22 October 2013 (UTC) NOTE: See below. Risker (talk) 03:41, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

• I think that reads "raise $600K [in donations]" not raise $600K for the ED salary! --Mike Cline (talk) 01:40, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks for the question, @Risker:. I'm not sure I understand your question comparing the ED positions at the WMF and WEF. Could you elaborate on what you are asking? With regard to your second question, the ED will devote much of his/her time to "major external fundraising," at least at first. We have discussed this quite a bit with experts in this field and they have advised us that it is highly unlikely that we will be able to secure the amount of money we need to sustain the WEF long term without this ED position. And as Mike mentioned, the $600k is not the ED's compensation. As you'll see from our startup grant, we estimate that ED's salary will be about $85k, which is modest, but competitive for a small organization like ours. I hope that helps. Pjthepiano (talk) 02:18, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I stand corrected, Pjthepiano. Seriously though, that's a huge chunk of change for a program whose metrics are pretty odd. Pages are pages, they're not x number of keystrokes. Risker (talk) 03:41, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree that we can certainly have a discussion about what the appropriate metrics for the program are. I'm not sure I agree that the WEF budget should be smaller because the evaluation methods the WMF used are "odd." But I think your point is well taken - a full discussion about evaluation methods would be very fruitful. Pjthepiano (talk) 04:13, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

• The feedback I have seen from inside the movement says that no more than 20% of I believe staff salaries should be spent on fundraising. Given the large number amount, what percentage of time does the WEF foresee this position to spend on fundraising? How have other Chapters/Thematic Organizations handled their initial employees? I can think of one chapter (not the WCA) that wanted their first employee to have this position first, and they got knocked down for it big time. --LauraHale (talk) 13:33, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

• I think a difficult thing here is that the WMF has a much larger avenue for fundraising (donations by many via millions of page views), whereas the WEF will need to foster some new relationships with grant-making organizations. I think the WEF board has been very realistic that this role will be a much higher percentage of the ED's overall job description in the early year(s)...hopefully not plural. :) Hopefully a great candidate will already have some of these relationships and the skills so that it does come out to be a smaller percentage of her/his salary. Also, you said "other" Thematic Organizations—the WEF actually withdrew its Thorg application but does intend to seek affiliation again down the line. Just to clarify. JMathewson (WMF) (talk) 20:12, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
• @LauraHale:, I'm not sure where the 20 percent figure you cite comes from, but it's typical for the ED of a nonprofit to spend the majority of their time on fundraising. As much as we would like the ED to focus solely on programmatic work, the reality is that the program needs resources to be sustained. Pjthepiano (talk) 03:30, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

My apologies. I think I misunderstood something. In any case, the 20% number came from a presentation made by Asaf at Ibercoop conference in Mexico City last week or the week before. The 20% dealt with the whole organization, not just the ED position. After looking around for best practices information, I see that a number of ED descriptions place a lot of importance in the role of fundraising as a key basis for hiring them when an organization has small staff. (Though inside the movement, this appears to be handled differently. First employees don't often appear to be in a fundraising role, but doing things like GLAM or education or interns who do office paperwork. Amical Viquimedia has a staff person for their education programming, and Wikimedia UK does. The first as I understand it gets a lot of their money through government grants. The question when looking for an ED to bring in money then should be is the person going to seek these through grants or soliciting individuals? Either approach likely impacts on the organization in a big way.) --LauraHale (talk) 12:50, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply, LauraHale. I can't speak to the models of the organizations you've cited without knowing their particular financial situations. I do know that we won't be able to replicate the WMF model (few organizations can). When the WMF puts a campaign on WP, it gets seen by millions of people. We don't have that luxury. So our organization (both our Board and our ED) will have to spend more time raising money through other sources. Pjthepiano (talk) 16:29, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Can you provide information on what organizations you are trying to model yours after? And what type of fundraising you are aiming to do? Will it be primarily through grants, either government or other sources? Or through a donation driven model where you seek donations from wealthy individuals? Or smaller donations from a larger pool of potential donors? I would think the type of funding you're seeking is going to end up being a major driver of the metrics you will be asked to provide, and will dictate the likely candidate you would get for ED. If you're looking for a grant based funding model, getting some one with experience getting large single donors seems less worthwhile. If you're seeking grants, then it seems like something the ED and the board should all have skills and knowledge in. --LauraHale (talk) 17:44, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

I expect most of our support will come from grants and large private donors. The former is the space where the ED will be mostly responsible for building relationships, developing grants, and securing funding. I see the latter as being a space where the Board can play a larger role. WEF is obviously a small organization so the Board is going to have to be heavily involved in many operational tasks, including raising money. However, we have been advised by several experts that we need an ED focused on fundraising if we have any hope of sustaining the program. Pjthepiano (talk) 22:00, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Biosthmors

• I strongly disagree with setting annual numeric goals with the program manager to ensure measurable programmatic expansion. I don't think the education program has its house in order yet. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 15:54, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
• There isn't even a bullet for having a working knowledge of Wikipedia as a preferred criterion? O my. Who was/were the author/authors? Was that point debated before it was left out? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 15:56, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

  The point came up; my recollection is that several people pointed out that any formal requirement for WP experience might cut too deeply into the pool of candidates. Of course a knowledge of Wikipedia would be an asset. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:45, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• How long after the hire will the annual plan and strategic plan be developed? Where will it be published? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 15:57, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

  I don't know where it will be published but I'm sure it will be. There is no timeline yet. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:45, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• The text that says: "working closely with the board of directors to develop the organization's strategic plan". So how should I conceptualize the relationship between the ED and the board? Is the chair of the board the "real" boss? Is the ED the "real" boss? Is the consensus of the board the "real" boss? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 16:02, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

  This is more a question about how boards interact with the organizations they represent. The board can fire the ED; the ED can't fire the board. Does that answer your question? Within the board the chair is a position that the board can choose to change at will. The chair has whatever powers the board chooses to delegate, assuming the board has those powers to begin with. There's no iron template that we have to fit within. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:45, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• Does overseeing the development of the organization's key messages imply that the WEF already has key messages? What are those key messages? Do they reflect community consensus on Wikipedia? Or will I just start seeing (WEF) behind account names instead of (WMF) making spurious arguments and mischaracterizations of Wikipedian opinion? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 16:06, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

  I'd like to see discussion on this board help to shape those messages, especially the parts that concern those on this board the most -- for example, what message do professors who are interested in teaching with Wikipedia receive? If there's any message that the WEF supports that the WP community doesn't, I'd be alarmed. If there turns out to be a disconnect between what WEF board members say and what the community thinks, I would encourage the community to elect better (more representative) board members. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:45, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• I see absolutely nothing about helping insure the quality of Wikipedia:Student assignments per the results of Wikipedia:Education Working Group/RfC. Is this because the WEF thinks it is a bureaucracy that operates above the lowly level of Wikipedia community consensus? Or can the community consensus from the RfC that there are concerns are about the quality of the work done, the amount of time needed to monitor and correct mistakes, and the value for money of the programme please be incorporated into the job description of the ED? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 16:11, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

  As above I'll assume you mean improving the assignments, not the linked essay. Do you mean that the ED's job description should include this? My answer is partly the same as for the PM, but I would also say that the ED is, of necessity, going to be mostly a fund-raiser, so not mentioning student assignments is because they will be less involved with classes on a day-to-day basis than the PM. Also as above, I hope it's a given that we all want student work to improve. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:45, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Online Ambassador application: q4pradeep

q4pradeep

q4pradeep (talk · contribs)

1. Why do you want to be a Wikipedia Ambassador?

   I Love to Work with this open Wiki, and wanna help friends over the world to keep the article best on Wiki. I found several mistakes

articles from India corrected them and now I'm interested making my contribution to Wiki.

1. In three sentences or less, summarize your involvement with Wikimedia projects.

   Want to help the projects simple and efficient.

2. Please indicate a few articles to which you have made significant content contributions. (e.g. DYK, GA, FA, major revisions/expansions/copy-edits).

   I made a few editing in several articles and modified several dates.

3. How have you been involved with welcoming and helping new users on Wikipedia?

   I just love to share info on FB and G+ about articles from wiki than any other sources.

4. What do you see as the most important ways we could welcome newcomers or help new users become active contributors?

   It's just by sending appreciation mails to good contributors. And other things such as sending them badges and other cool stuff.

5. Have you had major conflicts with other editors? Blocks or bans? Involvement in arbitration? Feel free to offer context, if necessary.

   No, never.

6. How often do you edit Wikipedia and check in on ongoing discussions? Will you be available regularly for at least two hours per week, in your role as a mentor?

   I spend about 3 hours on internet alone daily browsing something or the other. I prefer Wikipedia for reading articles. And other information several companies.

7. How would you make sure your students were not violating copyright laws?

   I'll cross check their articles and I'll make my best effort to avoid flaws.

8. If one of your students had an issue with copyright violation how would you resolve it?

   First I'll ask him to modify the article, and I'll send apologizing mail to the copyright holder, I'll try making compromise upto my level best

9. In your _own_ words describe what copyright violation is.

   To be frank I just gone wikipedia and read this article "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_violation"

10. What else should we know about you that is relevant to being a Wikipedia Ambassador?

    I'm a student of undergraduate, self under took web designing projects, Video Editing projects running own website www.q4pradeep.in

Endorsements

(Two endorsements are needed for online ambassador approval.)

• Oppose. User:q4pradeep, Online Ambassadors need substantial Wikipedia experience. Do we need to change our documentation to make this clear? You are more than welcome to gain that experience. We always welcome new editors. Feel free to ask questions at the WP:Teahouse if you need help. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 08:22, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Request for course instructor right: Breamk (talk)

Name

Kent Bream

Institution

University of Pennsylvania

Course title and description

Medical Missionaries and Community Partners. This course develops a historic approach to understanding medical missionaries in the 20th and 21st centuries.

Assignment plan

Students are required to create or significantly improve a wikipedia page on a notable medical missionary or missionary organization. The course has been runnign for si years with numerous pages created and edited.

Number of students

22

Start and end dates

Sept 2013-Jan 2014

@OhanaUnited, Neelix, Ktr101, Pharos, and Pongr: @Sleuthwood, Etlib, Daniel Simanek, Biosthmors, and Kayz911: @DStrassmann, Rjensen, Bluerasberry, and Kevin Gorman: --Breamk (talk) 23:54, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Return to the Course pages module.

Hey, Kent! Glad to have you and your students back editing this term. Let's see if someone can get you the appropriate user rights to pick back up where you left off. :) Thanks for coming to the noticeboard to ask for the user rights—I guess you see that we've created this Education extension since you last participated! JMathewson (WMF) (talk) 20:18, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Hi Breamk. Thank you for your interest in Wikipedia. =) I saw in the email (thanks Jami, could we post it here, perhaps?) that your class had some articles withheld in WP:Articles for creation last time. Does anyone know if we have learned from that experience so that the students will get perhaps improved instruction on how to create Wikipedia articles, so that their work might more consistently improve the encyclopedia? What has changed in the assignment from last semester to this semester? I haven't had a chance to evaluate your old course page yet. Could we link it here? Thanks all. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 08:28, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

There are actually only 2 students whose articles did not make it through AfC (one because the editor questioned the reliability of sources and one because the editor thought it read too much like an essay). The other 10+ students seem to have added very good articles for new editors. I think this is Kent's demonstration that he can train his students to add good content. Do you disagree? JMathewson (WMF) (talk) 17:10, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Also, I think professors who have already taught with Wikipedia tend to do better and better work each semester. I've seen this with dozens of folks because they learn as they go, get a feel for Wikipedia, and in general are teaching something a second or third time around. Kent already worked extensively on his assignment last year, and I'm sure he's spent a lot of time improving it after that experience. That's not to say we shouldn't continue guiding and counseling professors along the way, but I do think we should be wary of creating so many barriers to entry for people who've not only already demonstrated they're valuable to Wikipedia but are likely to become even more so as time goes on. JMathewson (WMF) (talk) 17:16, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

I recently talked with a professor who has been, for several years, getting his students to contibribute without understanding how we base articles off of WP:SECONDARY sources and not WP:PRIMARY ones as a matter of policy. I'm not trying to create a barrier. I just want there to be a "check" for Wikipedians to say "we suggest X" or "please don't do Y". Can we get a link to the last course page so that we might pick out X and Y? And the two AfCs? I'm about to get ready for bed and I don't have the time or energy to dig it out myself. If some RA wants to grant the user right then by all means. I just want to do some due diligence on my/Wikipedia's end. As for quality, I've only done one serious good article review, Talk:Malaria/GA2, and I kept finding text–source integrity issues. I'd have to start evaluating text–source integrity for many articles in the class and then a random sample of new editors before I can comment intelligently about article quality. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 22:06, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:USEP/Courses/Medical Missionaries to Community Partners: Great Ideas in the name of Public Health (Kent Bream) is the course page and User:Bluerasberry was an online ambassador. Lane, do you have any comments on the strengths vs. weaknesses of 2012 course? Did you provide any feedback at that time on how the class might perform better for 2013 and beyond? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 09:29, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

No, I do not have any feedback and I was not deeply engaged. I just posted an offer to chat on the instructor's talk page. If this person wishes, I will give them a tour of Wikipedia, help them setup their course page, and then be on call to support the class when students take up articles. See my message at User_talk:Breamk#A_cup_of_coffee_for_you.21. User:Biosthmors has some concerns but still, I would support the granting of instructor rights to this user now. Biosthmors? Do you have enough information to feel comfortable doing this? Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:33, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Special:UserRights/Breamk shows they were granted already, which I don't oppose. If I see, upon inspection, that there are specific directions the class' work should go in, that opinion could change, in the sense that we should communicate those things before granting the user right, in my opinion. It just seems like a natural responsibility that Ambassadors to academia on behalf of Wikipedia should welcome (communicating the strengths and weaknesses of student output, so courses can evolve and improve). Thanks for the note. Best. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 13:42, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Request for course instructor right: Garcia-FM

Name

Ignacio Garcia.

Institution

University of Western Sydney.

Course title and description

Interpreting and Translation Professional Practicum – The course aims to improve students translation skills using Wikipedia to translate articles from English into Arabic, Chinese, Japanese or Spanish. The students enrolled in this course are advanced undergraduates who have taken various translation courses and practiced translation intensively. Wikipedia will be used to translate English articles that are not available in those languages.

Assignment plan

Students will either choose an English article that has no corresponding article in the other language or further develop stub articles in their language which have a full English version.

Number of students

About forty

Start and end dates

March-April 2014

@OhanaUnited, Neelix, Ktr101, Pharos, and Pongr: @Sleuthwood, Etlib, Daniel Simanek, Biosthmors, and Kayz911: @DStrassmann, Rjensen, Bluerasberry, and Kevin Gorman: --Garcia-FM 02:26, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Return to the Course pages module.

• Thanks for posting this. I posted on your talk page to set up a chat to discuss this. Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:42, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Where's the documentation for the automated note you left, by the way? Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 14:06, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Contributing to Wikipedia brochure rewrite: draft text is up

LiAnna posted a few weeks ago asking for feedback on the "Welcome to Wikipedia" brochure, which is used for many in-person outreach events like edit-a-thons and is also often given out to students who are going to do Wikipedia assignments. We've now posted draft text for a completely rewritten version (tentatively retitled Contributing to Wikipedia: A guide to improving the online encyclopedia). Feedback or edits at this point would be really helpful — especially from anyone who has used the previous version of the brochure or has wanted a physical, printed piece of welcome literature when working with newcomers.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 14:54, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Sage. Is there a deadline? I was away last week but I hope to have good suggestions this time around. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 08:31, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

We want to have the text essentially finalized by 15 November.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 17:36, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Can English Wikipedia get its own version? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 13:34, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

If, by the final version, you (or anyone else) feels like there were too many compromises to avoid en.wiki-specific content, then yes, anyone can make a more localized version. The source files will be available. That said, I'm pretty sure that we can write it in a way that works well for en.wiki without being exclusive to it.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 13:49, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 14:04, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Biosthmors

• Why link the community portal? I don't think the community uses it because the Wikipedia:Community bulletin board was outdated with something from July. I made that edit. We should just link people to the Village Pumps and link them to the Signpost and tell them they can put Template:Signpost-subscription with {{Signpost-subscription}} on their user page. They should also have a link to the course page on their user page per WP:STUDENTUSER.
  • Thanks! I've copied your comments over to the draft talk page, so that we can keep a central discussion if and when those from other wikis join. I've replied there.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 17:36, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Guideline?

I have expressed a potential interest in getting WP:ASSIGN up to a guideline level on the talk page there (WT:ASSIGN#Guideline). Please comment there if you are interested in the possibility or if you have any advice. Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 10:47, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Education program userrights

Where can I find documentation on the education program userrights? Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:25, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

WP:Course coordinator. Best. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 13:26, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Okay, that is scant, and I am not sure that the talk page for that documentation is best for discussing education program userrights.

I have course coordinator userrights. It seems like inherent in that userright is the "campus volunteer" userright, but not the "online volunteer" userright. Is that the way it should be? Should not the "course coorindator" userright make a person also instantly a campus and online volunteer? Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:37, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

I think this is related to the problem I perceive with the current three ways to be an Ambassadors, which I find lacking. Who came up with that system? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 13:45, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

If we are going to the source, then I would like to have a chat with whoever knows the system and then have documentation of what these userrights are. Also, it seems like no more ambassadors! There are coordinators and volunteers. Should we stop saying ambassador? Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:54, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T58101

@Bluerasberry: I agree the userrights are a bit muddled; it's on the agenda for improvements to the extension, although not near the top at this point. (The small adjustment of making it unnecessary to explicitly assign online or campus rights to coordinators is trivial, and I'll see that this happens soon.) As I've brought up here before and discussants seemed to think was a good idea, I think we only need one volunteer right; there's no need to separate the two ambassador roles within the software, and it just adds an extra layer of complexity for no benefit. If our developer gets through the higher-priority issues quickly, we may be able to tackle this in the next few months; otherwise, it may need to wait until the potential redesign by the Growth team next year(-ish). On the terminology, we changed from "ambassadors" to "volunteers" to make the system more general. Editors who are not participating in formal education programs (or education programs that are set up differently from the US/Canada ones) can also use it (although that has not really happened so far on en.wiki). If the Growth team takes on the project of building a replacement, one of the main goals (as we've talked about it so far) will be to make it as good as possible for many different kinds of outreach programs instead of built around the needs and assumptions of the US/Canada education programs.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 14:08, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. It is not that I care about the bureaucracy of doing things in a certain way. It's just that when I expect things to work in one way, and then they do not, then it makes me wonder if I am using the system improperly. Now that I understand what is happening I do not need anything changed anytime soon, and if others are confused I can explain it to them.

I also wish for this model to be applied to non-university organizations and I hope that there is as much potential for that as for outreach to schools. Thanks. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:14, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Question for the WMF, questions for the WEF, course not getting off to a good start

I am asking this question because it is prompted by User:SandyGeorgia's and User:Colin's current troubles, which are Wikipedia's troubles. It relates to a course mentioned now in the archives. Did anyone at WP:WMF happen to help "the Evolutionary Medicine Wikipedia Network (EvMedWikiNet)" develop? Did any Wikipedian? I see it linked at Education Program:Case Western Reserve University/ANTH 302 Darwinian Medicine (Fall 2013). It just appears that, from my perspective, with neuroscience, psychology, and now this, that we keep ending up with all these professional societies having large ambitions, but without ever appearing to get help from Wikipedians first. It's quite annoying. Has anyone had contact with the Evolutionary Medicine Wikipedia Network? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 15:24, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Many schools participate without any interaction with the education program or with Wikipedians. I feel like this course would have been signaled to WikiProject Medicine, but I do not recall it being mentioned there. The two users Biosthmors just mentioned are also people on the medicine page. At Wikipedia:Education_noticeboard/Archive6#Request_for_course_instructor_right:_Sanetti_.28talk.29 it seems that there were problems soon after starting. This does not seem like a risky class if the professor gives oversight and has had a bit of training. Hmmm... I am not sure what action to propose but this needs a response. I could offer an hour of video chat with the professor. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:42, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

I see Education Program talk:Case Western Reserve University/ANTH 302 Darwinian Medicine (Fall 2013)/Timeline needs some basic formatting, but I think that is best done with an ambassador and professor working together on Skype so the professor actually learns how to edit Wikipedia. Wikipedia shortcuts aren't even linked on that page. If this course is going to be run again, which I hope it does, if feedback is taken to improve the course/course page (and hopefully others within this "network", though google doesn't show anything). Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 15:49, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

I do not see the bad course page as a major concern. I do dislike the wizard guidelines in setting up a timeline, and also for asking for the syllabus for the course. This just results in copyvios and useless information being pasted here. In any case, I offered to talk with the professor - see User_talk:Sanetti#Offer_to_chat_about_course. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:52, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

The hour of video chat would ideally be with a medical editor (such as User:Jmh649, or User:Colin, or even User:Maralia or User:Nikkimaria) since issues of editing medical articles are rarely well explained by others (WP:MEDRS in general, and as it relates to WP:UNDUE). In this case, it just happens that the first thing to come to attention was copyvio (before we even knew it was a course),[2] in the midst of another WMF whitewashing of ongoing copyvio concerns, but copyvio is more easily addressed than the other problems that are surfacing (copyvio can easily be reverted, the rest is harder to deal with). For example, experience with writing for a Wiki with a known POV (Evolutionary medicine) will present a challenge for students who are guided by a professor who may not understand issues of WP:UNDUE in neutral writing, or at least may not be experienced in same. I am stretched to explain these issues to the professor and her students, but have patiently tried to do so, and it has taken my time away from article editing, since this course is hitting multiple medical FAs on my watchlist. It is unfortunate that they are targeting Featured articles, as a good deal of their proposed content may turn out to be UNDUE on those pages. The bad course page is certainly a concern, as pointed out by Colin (they are targeting highly viewed articles contrary to some course guideline page). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:53, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

It's a little upsetting to me to see you describe the recent plagiarism research as "whitewashing". I've tried to be fully transparent about the methodology we used (and its known and potential shortcomings) and the results we got, and to be circumspect about what conclusions are warranted.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 16:14, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Actually, it was a later comment from someone else that triggered my comment (can't recall who, but another WMF person came late to the discussion and questioned something along the lines of implying there was no problem-- most offputting). Sage Ross, you rarely write anything that concerns me! Now, having said that about you, that is not to say that I don't have ever-growing concerns about this program.

The sense that those promoting this program are not understanding its effects on established editors continues, and continues to grow. On this very page, where I raised a coyvio concern, within 24 hours, professor rights were granted by someone who wasn't even aware that concern was on the page and without taking advantage of that opportunity to bring it to the prof's attention and make sure the prof was brought up to speed. Do you all think blowing the whistle on a student who is identified by name on a public forum is fun or that it was something I wanted to do, considering it is this program that has led to an increase in ill-prepared student editing? For gosh sakes, at least read what is on the page before granting rights and missing the chance to educate. And the concern that class editing constitutes meatpuppetry continues, and established editors find it harder and harder to keep articles clean. Issues like this further the division between paid and unpaid volunteers. Yes, in general, there is whitewashing of those concerns on this board, but no, I'm not going to take the time to go back and find the comment from the WMF staffer that amounted to "whatdya mean problems, there are none". Baloney. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:38, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Went back in archives to find the referenced comment, which was, in response to Bios:

I'm trying to understand what you think is "sucky" about the program in the US and Canada. -- LiAnna Davis (WMF) (talk) 18:42, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Seriously, this noticeboard isn't that old, there are only five or six archives, and it's not that hard to process through the discussions of problems; that comment seems dismissive. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:20, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

And Sandy, it's been a while since I've done much with deep vein thrombosis, but I think it's given me enough exposure to MEDRS to be a "spokesman" on behalf of how to edit clinical medical topics.

I wouldn't mind helping out with the course page, but offering now doesn't seem like a good time. Lane has offered to help. Sandy has been reaching out by email. You two, keep us updated? Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 16:32, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

I did not intend to leave you off the list of qualified ~! By all means, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:38, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Sandy. But FYI, when you said "For gosh sakes, at least read what is on the page before granting rights and missing the chance to educate", I agree with your sentiment, but I think that would have been technically impossible unless the course page were developed in user space with a Wikipedian (or a Wikipedia-savvy person) before being "reviewed" here. The user rights are to play in the Education Program space. I made that kind of argument here. That's a super long thread, though! Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 17:16, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

As previously discussed on this page, the program pages have been made sufficiently difficult that I (a long-time and involved editor) have difficulty even finding the pieces to sort out what's what when my watchlist is hit by student editing. An already difficult situation made worse by programming changes here that make Wikipedia pages not act like Wikipedia pages. Call me an old dog who can't learn new tricks, but seriously ... I write articles. I don't want to have to figure out why you all set up pages that can't even be found or watchlisted. I used to love mentoring new editors. This program has taken the joy out of both. Because I spend most of my time now fixing faulty edits and attempting to mentor students who will never become established Wikipedians, or become knowledgeable enough to help with routine article maintenance. They are here for the grade, they take our time and resources, they leave when the course ends. In the case of medicine, after typically adding little to nothing of value. I would love to again mentor a committed editor-- one who wants to learn and will become an asset to WP:MED. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:20, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

+1 Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 22:45, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

@Biosthmors: I have to repeat that I disagree (but agree with User:Bluerasberry) that the Course Page is not as important to the quality of the class contributions as you are making it out to be. Yes, I believe it positively impacts the class when the professor works closely with somebody to understand guidelines and set up an assignment, but you have to be realistic that plenty of professors do not want to duplicate their work that they're doing on the syllabus, on another space for their students, and in the classroom. You hopefully realize by now that a professor taking on a Wikipedia assignment is a lot more time-consuming than sticking with their traditional curriculum, so please give them the benefit of the doubt that they aren't taking it lightly. Some classes and some students will likely have issues, no matter how much preparation goes into the assignment, but it certainly doesn't all go back to what the Course Page looks like or whether it's formatted appropriately.

As for the user rights, they are granted to provide a professor a tool to use when teaching with Wikipedia. Professors don't have to use the education extension because this is the encyclopedia anyone can edit. This particular professor never responded to the email I sent him via WP, but I do think having his students' usernames and being able to track them back to that class is more useful than not. Isn't it? It's not ideal, and it's not the norm when it comes to professors wanting support, but it seems better to me to have some insight into the class rather than none. Another note—is Bluerasberry not qualified to speak to medical guidelines? JMathewson (WMF) (talk) 17:49, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

I understand what you're saying, but I find it to be a mischaracterization of my position to say it doesn't all go back to what the Course Page looks like or whether it's formatted appropriately. That's not my position... Yes, I certainly do understand it is more time-consuming, which is why I volunteer and I think we need more Wikipedian–instructor pairings, in my opinion. I like having a course page as well, but it's not like a course page is how the community figured out things weren't going well with the edits.

If Bluerasberry has brought up a disease article to good status and has also addressed WikiProject Medicine-associated peer review concerns from "seasoned editors" (I'm thinking Axl, who is a physician), then I think that's the general threshold to get "street cred" in the project, in my opinion. I'm not certain if this quasi-arbitrary threshold has been met or not. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 18:05, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

And I understand that professors do not want to duplicate their work that they're doing on the syllabus, on another space for their students, and in the classroom, which is why I want the course page to be the main spot students turn to when they have questions about their assignment. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 18:10, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

@JMathewson (WMF): I don't know if Rasberry is qualified to deal with medical articles; I know who the active, involved, knowledgeable WP:MED editors are because I've worked with them for years. Others aren't always well versed in WP:MEDRS, or how to apply MEDRS along with UNDUE in the context, for example, of a Featured article that must use high-quality sources per WP:WIAFA. I listed a few editors known to me to be familiar on that level, because this particular course is approaching the work with a built-in bias, and UNDUE in the context of MEDRS needs to be explained to them. Also, after seven years actively involved in every aspect of the process, four years as WP:FAC delegate, I know which medical editors know WP:WIAFA and write on that level; this course is targeting multiple Featured articles. The kind of poor research that might stand on an undeveloped article typically has no place on an FA, so the students are likely to find their experience frustrating. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:37, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

I think there's a fundamental problem with this whole course. As indicated by Jfdwolff, here '"I notice that the course focuses particularly on Darwinian medicine. I think it is very important to be clear that with regards to many medical conditions, evolutionary aspects may well be too underdeveloped scientifically to include into mainstream encyclopedia articles. Of course there are famous theories (about the evolutionary advantage of haemoglobinopathies in sickle cell disease, for instance) but unless these theories are covered in reliable secondary sources, there might well be a reason to exclude them from Wikipedia". This class was asked to pick articles from (among other criteria), "the list of most viewed articles on WikiProject Medicine". The assignment is almost guaranteed to be POV because the student is asked to find areas where there "are important evolutionary considerations not yet represented on Wikipedia, for example by consulting from evolutionary medicine resources". These sources are biased towards Darwinian medicine, which is a largely speculative endeavour. The students are not asked to consult the sources on the article subject and then see if the WP:WEIGHT given to evolutionary medicine issues within those reliable sources finds representation within the articles. A single review article on evolutionary medicine & the topic is regarded as sufficient. Although the students are asked to not evangelise for evolutionary medicine in their writing, it is hard to see how they can apply NPOV given the earlier advice.

The articles chosen are (name / class / daily hits)

• Obsessive–compulsive disorder. C-class. 5600 hits.
• Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder predominantly inattentive. Start-class. 1500 hits.
• Hypothyroidism. B-class. 3400 hits.
• Major depressive disorder. Featured article. 3500 hits.
• Migraine. Good article. 3500 hits.
• Dental caries. B-class. 1700 hits.
• Coeliac disease. Featured article. 4400 hits.
• Sarcopenia. C-class. 300 hits.
• Narcolepsy. C-class. 3200 hits.
• Multiple sclerosis. Featured article. 7300 hits.
• Osteoarthritis. B-class. 2700 hits.
• Inflammatory bowel disease. C-class. 1600 hits.
• Color blindness. C-class. 3300 hits.
• Pre-eclampsia. B-class. 2700 hits.
• Osteoporosis. B-class. 2800 hits.
• Demyelinating disease. C-class. 600 hits.
• Causes of autism. C-class. 461 hits.

The prof running the course isn't an experienced Wikipedian. I have no doubt their intentions are good. However is hasn't been thought through and shows all the lack of preparation typical of student courses. Only on Wikipedia do we find professors teaching a topic they know nothing about (how to write for Wikipedia), asking students to do something they haven't done themselves. And please, can we stop repeating the "because this is the encyclopedia anyone can edit" as an excuse. These students and professors are welcome to edit Wikipedia on a voluntary basis like everyone else. But Wikipedia is not a homework assignment -- it is an encyclopaedia read by thousands of people every day. While something like Wikipedia:Assignments is not policy, I see no good coming of this program at all. Colin°^Talk 12:34, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Colin, I sympathize 100%, except I think it's an overstatement to say "I see no good coming of this program at all". (One could find some good somewhere, of course.) And I'd like to see a WEF response from Mike Christie. But anyways, this course is a perfect example of why Jami Mathewson (the Program Manager to be starting Nov. 1) has started emailing Regional Ambassadors at least some details about professors and courses while emailing the Regional Ambassadors to ask them to grant course instructor user rights. That thread was long and is now linked at WP:WEF in the September update. But we have to strike the right balance. I'm not sure where that is at. Clearly Wikipedian's aren't providing enough input before courses massively fail like this one. How can we get the WEF to actually get Wikipedia assignments improved before they are designed to fail? That's the question. Currently they are focusing on administrative tasks, such as finalizing the Executive Director position before offering it out. There is a spot for a Wikipedian on the board, and I've been asking for that spot, but I gather other Wikipedia editors are asking for it as well. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 12:47, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Re "One could find some good somewhere, of course" Yes small miracles happen occasionally despite the odds. But I continue to see defence of letting just anyone do this unprepared and unaccountable. We get a "They are not one of ours, nothing we can do, anyone can edit" response. I don't accept that. Is someone from WEF going to join with JFW and ask them nicely to stop and reconsider?

I'm going to take this page back off my watchlist again, along with the above medical articles. No point. -- Colin°^Talk 13:37, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

At work and unable to respond now; will try this weekend or late tonight. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:04, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Who else has their hat in the ring? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 13:02, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

I have many of these on my watch list and have worked extensively on some of them. I moved one addition to a subpage. Most of the articles have not been edited yet. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 14:04, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

• I just talked with the professor. I gave her a tour of Wikipedia with screenshare. I emphasized the need to make contributions while also having each student go to the talk page and say what they did, as well as accept feedback. I showed her WP:MEDRS. She is going to have the students indicate which articles they are editing on the course page. I will also show her this discussion and ask her to response here to concerns. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:17, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Spectacular! Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 15:03, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Refocus

I appreciate all of the subsequent work on this issue, but I am concerned that the focus in this discussion was shifted to the professor, the students and the course, overlooking several WEF missteps along the way that could have helped avoid a potential trainwreck. I do not feel as negative about possible outcomes as some have expressed here, because since the problems were raised, the students and professor seem to have been nothing but cooperative and willing to understand Wikipedia policies and procedures. I probably expended too much effort in trying to explain policies and guidelines to the class and students (User talk:Sarmocid/sandbox), where Colin and Jfdwolff were better able to explain the POV issues with much less wordiness.

So, to refocus on what I believe should be of concern:

1. I encountered an initial copyvio (not since repeated from that class and something that should be considered unfortunate water under the bridge), and came to this board because I could not begin to figure out where to find the course or professor. I was pretty much brushed off here, told to find it myself, and yes, I had already consulted Biosthmors, who happened to be traveling at the moment (or I'd wager he would have helped).
2. After pointing out that I was trying to find that course, professor rights were requested and extended here by staffers who apparently do not even review this board, and missed the first opportunity to engage early on with what has turned out to be a helpful and collaborative professor.
3. At that time, had anyone with knowledge of how content is built on Wikipedia, particularly how medical content is built, read the course description and engaged the professor, they woulda/shoulda been able to point out the issues that have now been explained by both Colin and Jfdwolff. With a whole lot less time and agida for all involved.
4. As an unfortunate side issue, it happens that the POV that the course description encourages is the same POV of another editor who is not hearing it on five different talk pages, consuming talk with discussion but never providing secondary sources supporting proposed text, wanting to use one researcher's publications about his own theories rather than secondary reviews of that researcher's theories. The IDHT editor engaged the course students and professor, which presented another wrinkle that could have been avoided if WEF staffers had simply and early on pointed out the POV problems in the course design.

Consider how all of this looked from the course's standpoint; typical Wikipedia dysfunction. How do they know who they should listen to? Well, how about WEF staffers, for starters?

So, after a lot of medical editor time is expended here by editors who could be writing content and mentoring users who will become regular contributors here, Colin once again gives up in disgust (and not likely at the course, but at the WEF), I find that almost two years after I resigned as FAC delegate specifically so I could concentrate more on medical writing,[3] I spend almost no time mentoring new editors who will continue to produce good content, little time writing, and most of my time dealing with bad student editing because my area of editing happens to be focused around topics that are hit by every manner of wackiness (eg the klazomania example discussed many times).

I am no longer concerned about this course, except to the extent that the professor should rightly feel put off by the display of incompetence, and it should not have taken so much to get folks here to understand the issues. I am, again, concerned that in the next six weeks, as term-end approaches, any productive editing I might do will be hit by courses unidentified, as students who haven't tagged talk pages from courses we don't even know exist will dash to get their grades before the term ends, overwhelming my watch list with edits that are likely to require 100% removal, after lots of effort to determine if there is copyvio or other policy violations. This problem is not getting better. Repeat: this problem is not getting better. Some of it all goes back to ... the design of this program, which is becoming more and more indecipherable to even a regular, long-time, involved editor, and seems less and less responsive to the concerns of established editors.

MOST of what the Medicine Project produces of quality is done by about a dozen editors. The WEF has never produced a single medical editor that endured. Do you all want to continue discouraging all of the Colin's out there, who can and do actually write boatloads of featured content? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:47, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

I haven't read all of this yet, but the WP:WEF doesn't have an employee until Nov. 1st, FYI. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 16:52, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

I am wholly uninterested in the WMF politics that are taking over this board (indeed, this website). I don't care what they are called and whether they are paid-- there are people designing these pages, handing out some sorts of rights, and conducting business here in ways that is becoming unwieldy, indecipherable, and off-putting. The folks who gave the professor of this course some sorts of rights did it without reading this board, without understanding how content is built, and while missing the early advantage to engage more productively. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:57, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

I understand your frustration. It is quite a complex beast. But FYI, "community members" hand out the rights. They are called Regional Ambassadors. And in my opinion, they have been quasi-curated by WMF staff. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 17:08, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Requesting the course instructor user right comes with default language

Is it optional? It is at Wikipedia:Training/For educators/Request instructor right/preload. I just removed Daniel, who confirmed in an email a while back he left the program in the Summer. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 16:35, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Is this section in the wrong place? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:48, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't think so, I think it's part of the larger narrative here. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 16:49, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

And what are the criteria for becoming a Regional Ambassador?

Personally, I was surprised to see that User:Frankcjones became one because I still kind of consider him a "newbie". Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 16:48, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Honestly, I'm completely fine with us moving the RA selection/approval to WP:ENB, as long as everyone comes to consensus on the qualifications. As for Frank, he was recommended by another RA who has met him and interacted with him IRL and at teaching-with-Wikipedia workshops. You probably realize from the lack of participation here and on the mailing list that there aren't a ton of super-active RAs these days (certainly none so active as you :) ), so involving excited, eager, and interested people who have demonstrated a passion for learning more as they go seems, well, like a pretty good way to involve volunteers. That's just me, though, and I'm completely open to moving a "selection process" here—though I think we would better serve the Wikipedia Education Program and everyone involved by establishing a less hierarchical Ambassador system.

User:Pjthepiano and I have also been talking about what we believe to be much more important changes to the "Regional Ambassador" team, including moving it from a "regional" system (since everyone meets remotely anyway) to a subject-based system. The WEF board members have been talking about this since they were still the Working Group, and I think it's something we could revamp for Spring 2014. User:Etlib has also been trying to focus us on this change for a long time, and I think we're finally going to be able to take the time to do so! JMathewson (WMF) (talk) 23:44, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Jami. I am looking forward to seeing and helping the program develop and re-think itself. I'm not sure I agree with your first sentence, though. I don't know who the word everyone refers to in your first sentence. Questions that come up to me include these: did "everyone" come to consensus before the RA critiera were initially set? And who set the inital criteria? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 08:00, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

JMathewson (WMF), what are the current WMF criteria, though? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 12:53, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

I have no idea who came to consensus on RA criteria in the first place, as I was not yet involved in the Education Program. I imagine there was a posting on the Ambassador talk page, as this noticeboard did not yet exist. JMathewson (WMF) (talk) 19:16, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 22:47, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Relationship between poorly performing classes, the Education Program, and the WMF/WEF

Biosthmors asked me (above) to respond to this thread as a member of the Wiki Education Foundation (WEF). I haven't reviewed the medical edits that Colin and Sandy are commenting on; I trust their judgement that these are harmful edits. These comments are my own personal opinion; I haven't reviewed them with other WEF board members.

I think the issue with poorly performing classes is one that the community is going to have to resolve, because I don't see the WEF or WMF as possessing either the power or the authority to prevent these classes from happening. Several people on this noticeboard have worked on ways to solve this, by proposing guidelines or policies that would help -- for example by asserting the authority to block student editors who are causing problems, or by elevating MEDRS to BLP-level so reverts can be done on sight. I'm not sure if those are the right answers, but that's going to be up to the community.

I would like to see the WEF contribute its resources to fix these problems. Here are some suggestions for things the WEF can do to help resolve these issues. I'd like to hear more ideas.

• Engage with the professional societies that have declared an interest in Wikipedia, and do outreach work to make them aware of pitfalls and how to avoid them, particularly with regard to medical issues.
• Write, collect, curate and publish articles, how-tos, videos and other material that can be used by external groups wishing to work with Wikipedia
• Identify and maintain lists of contacts with Wikipedia expertise willing to talk to professors and professional societies remotely or in person. Write and assist with presentations that can be used in these talks
• Write up case studies of good and bad student experiences and class experiences, and incorporate this material in the talks and articles above.
• Track and follow up on any reported announcements of societies, universities or individual classes planning to work on Wikipedia, in order to try to communicate with these groups prior to class design
• Work with the community to review successful classes and try to determine what makes them successful
• Volunteer to communicate directly with professors and societies running classes with problematic edits, and explain the problems and encourage communication directly with the community on Wikipedia talk and project pages
• Capture input from professors running the classes on their interactions with Wikipedia and make it available to the community, to provide additional insight into what can and can't be expected from an on-wiki class.

There's nothing in my list above about course page requirements, requirements for professors to comply with any prerequisites, or requirements for on-wiki communication. The reason is that I don't believe the WEF has any authority to make any such rules. The community can do so, in which case the WEF can help to communicate those rules to the professors; but the WEF has absolutely no right to assert any such thing. The only thing the WEF can do along those lines is set requirements that a class must meet if the WEF is to provide help to it -- and the value of that is debatable because it is likely to be classes that fail to meet minimum standards that need the most help. Any requirements such as the above would have to be set by the community, via discussion on this page and/or elsewhere. I'll participate in those discussions as a Wikipedian who is representing the community to the WEF as a board member, but the WEF as an entity has no particular rights in that discussion.

If there's more that can be done by the WEF, I would love to hear it, because I entirely agree with Sandy, Colin and Doc James that there is a real problem here. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:14, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the followup, Mike; considering the considerable years we have of working closely together on top content, I am glad you don't find it necessary to review the work done by me or for example other FA folks :) :) I am always relieved you, as a person who knows how to build top content and has interacted for most of your Wiki-career with the people who actually do that, weigh in here, and glad we have your considerable talents at our disposal.

I agree that community solutions will be needed, and that there may be little that WMF or WEF can or will do. What I would like for the "paid" folks to do is "first no harm". Read this board. Understand the extent of the problem. Stop doing things that make it worse. Put out a blooming press release that tells the truth, and will help discourage every Tom, Dick and Harry professor from unleashing students on Wikipedia to a) push their pet theories into a top-10 website, b) create an amount of copyvio established editors can't keep up with, and c) come in here with the mistaken impression that they can guide students in editing Wikipedia when they have never done it themselves.

Look, we got all kinds of publicity after Jbmurray's successful course; we've never had another course achieve that kind of success, and we have no retained students from those courses (at least we have Jbmurray maintaining those FAs, though). That story needs to be told accurately to the press if the WMF places any value on content and retaining established, knowledgeable editors and if they take seriously legal obligations with respect to the known amount of copyvio in here (I'm not sure they do after the SOPA debacle, but I suspect that legally they better at least pretend to care).

I like your list, but I would add that I am increasingly concerned that this noticeboard is being used for politics and disinformation more than it is used as a place where an established editor can come and say, "I am trying to write content, and I keep encountering student problems, can someone deal with this"? The purpose of most noticeboards on Wikipedia is to get more eyes on problems, and where editors experienced in dealing with problems do that. The BLP noticeboard attracts people who know BLP issues, 3RR attracts those who evaluate editwarring-- where do we go when we need help with disruptive class editing? We don't get help in here. Editors (say, for example, Colin and me) who want to write content and used to love mentoring new editors who would stay on and help and who have no interest in being unpaid TAs to students who are only here for a grade and will not generate any useful content should be free to do that (write content and mentor useful new editors rather than act as TA for editors who won't be retained and won't further content), and should be able to come here and say, here's a problem from this program, will the resources on this board deal with them. Instead, we have a number of staffers (meaning, people with WMF after their username) weighing in here who seem completely indifferent to or unaware of the extent of the problems, a couple of regular editors who try their best to help at what is becoming a full-time job, but almost nothing in the way of actual help to relieve the strain on established editors. I wouldn't mind seeing a high-profile case of blocking so that we could get the attention of either the press or the universities involved, so that the word would get out that this kind of stuff needs to stop. I am aware that medical articles are apparently hit harder than other content areas, probably because the few dozen or so medical editors that are left still take sourcing seriously and care that we don't disseminate inaccurate medical info. We are giving students exceptions in the name of not biting the newbies that we wouldn't give regular new editors, and we are getting nothing in return, since these editors never stay on and become regular contributors.

Professor rights were granted here to a course whose very design encouraged POV editing. Why did no one even read the course design, or alternately, were the people reading the course design so unversed in content building that they couldn't recognize the built-in problems? What is the purpose of this board if faulty course design is approved?

In the real world, when a student plagiarizes, they usually get a big fat F. Why must we tolerate it in here? If the WMF cannot or will not do something, why don't we get a community policy to block the entire course as soon as we have one instance of plagiarism, since the profs are never checking their student edits as Jbmurray did? That will at least get their attention, and perhaps help stem the tide.

Why do we have this program? Why hasn't the WMF put out a press release explaining the significant amount of issues, copyvio, poor text, bad experiences, etc? The "encyclopedia that anyone can edit" was built around the idea that people wanted to be here. Why are we promoting programs that chase out those who want to be here, while encouraging those who are only here for a grade? If the WMF does not get on this, you know the regular press will. DO SOMETHING. Best regards to you, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:54, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Sandy's right on. This thread is getting unwieldy, but I want to toss out a suggestion here. It's come up repeatedly that we can't expect teachers to do assignments themselves (in advance, pre-user right) because they're too busy. Maybe it's worth revisiting that, to ensure that they're well-equipped to handle a gaggle of 15+ student-editors, that they know how to handle flare ups before we put them in the drink. If the concern is that more profs will then go around the formality altogether, those "rogue" classes are very similar to any other edit ring and should be treated no differently (Sandy's meatpuppet recommendation). I think this would be a good step towards a cure. I also strongly agree with Sandy about the tenor of conversations on this noticeboard and how that should change. czar ♔ 15:47, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Hello Czar. I think I agree with what you're saying. What was the argument you were capturing when you said others say "we can't expect teachers to do assignments themselves"? I think that if instructors are really too busy to prepare to run a WP:Student assignment properly then that is why the page says "Consider delaying your Wikipedia assignment to next semester if you are not familiar with how things work." Maybe we should beef up the language/the presentation of that language? If instructors aren't prepared, then they should not force students to become "paid" editors who are compensated with course credit, in my opinion. Wikipedia is the encyclopedia "anyone can edit". But is it the encyclopedia people can be forced to edit? That's what classroom assignments are—students are compelled to edit. Is that exactly in line with the mission of Wikipedia? I don't think so. If we block an entire class that is unprepared, then we are only doing the students and our readers a favor by halting the disruptive and unproductive edits that were made under compulsion by an ill-prepared instructor who likely doesn't have an inkling about the website and its values. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 08:55, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

I find this a very onerous and problematic idea. It is essentially guilt by association. If a class of 25 students is involved in a Wikipedia related assignment that involves editing, and a handful of students don’t comply with WP norms, policies and guidelines, then all 25 students are guilty and would be blocked. A very dangerous precedent that could be applied to any group of editors that had some form of association. Two editors associated with say the World Wildlife Fund plagiarized some articles, we could rightly say that under this concept, all editors associated with the fund should be blocked. The trend lately in WP seems to be to focus on punishing any editor and the groups they are associated with that is found to be problematic. There’s rarely any real effort to focus energies on training, mentoring, and providing the right kinds of resources editors (including students and professors) need to become productive within the norms of WP. Additionally, I find the repeated mantra that students are being forced to edit WP against their will a bit tedious and unsupported by any evidence. An editor is an editor regardless of their motivation, skill or expertise and should be treated as every editor is treated. The WMF saw wisdom in promoting the use of WP in the classrooms of higher education because they believed this was an avenue to improve participation and content. I agree with that wisdom and sincerely wish we could focus not on how we are going to punish editors, but rather how to get the most out of this program for WP. --Mike Cline (talk) 13:38, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't see why you conclude this would be guilt by association. All it would do is prevent predictable harm to the encyclopedia. If any group is being compelled to edit but is doing so in such a way that runs counter to the encyclopedia's policies and guidelines, then we should block those accounts to prevent harm, in my mind. To me, it's common sense students are being compelled to edit. Would you say "no, I'm not going to edit Wikipedia" to your instructor if it was 20% of your grade? I see wisdom in running carefully managed WP:Student assignments. I do not see wisdom in the model the WMF has left us with. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 14:18, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't see why you conclude this would be guilt by association - If 2 of 25 students were plagiarizing while the other 23 were complying 100% with WP norms and we chose to block the hold class because of the two-- If that's not guilt by association, then I don't know what is?

If any group is being compelled to edit but is doing so in such a way that runs counter to the encyclopedia's policies and guidelines, then we should block those accounts to prevent harm, in my mind. To me, it's common sense students are being compelled to edit. Would you say "no, I'm not going to edit Wikipedia" to your instructor if it was 20% of your grade? This is the kind of comment I find difficult to deal with. "Compelled to edit ... counter to WP norms" Do we have evidence that students are being compelled to edit in this way, or could it be they edit in a way that is counter to WP norms because they just don't know any better? In every class I participate in at MSU, the editing of WP is always optional from the student's perspective and students who chose not to edit, are given alternative means of achieving the class objectives. Students who chose to edit are given every resource possible to help them do it correctly. On the other hand we use WP in ways that are extremely productive from a learning objective standpoint that involves no editing at all. That kind of use of WP is generally not optional but in reality, doesn't require much upfront mentoring either.

All it would do is prevent predictable harm to the encyclopedia. Who is doing the predictions here? Sounds like there is some one or some group that has divine authority to pick and chose editors based on whatever criteria seems convenient at the time. There is a saying in the business world "Business would be easy if it wasn't for those pesky customers" I would add this "Wikipedia would be easy if it wasn't for those pesky editors" --Mike Cline (talk) 14:40, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

I suggested last year that education-program students be required to write their assignments in sandboxes, then once they are graded, the students can choose to carry the work over into mainspace, at which point they'd be treated like any other editor. This would solve the problems we've seen on this page at one stroke.

It would mean plagiarism and other problems wouldn't affect articles. Sandboxes could be deleted on request by students, or by anyone else who finds copyright violations in them. Students wouldn't be forced to release their work and be publicly connected to it forever. The material would still be available to WP if the students gave express consent for that once the course had ended, at which point it would be carried over and checked in much more manageable chunks. Students who knew they had plagiarized wouldn't request this, so the deliberate-plagiarism problem would be solved. All this would take would be an RfC to ask for community consensus. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 15:03, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

@Slimvirgin – …that education-program students be required to write their assignments in sandboxes I would agree that drafting article work in a sandbox is indeed a very good “best practice”. I’ve handled all my personal WP work that way for 6 years. It is also a good way to get new editors familiar with WP editing without outside interference. On the other hand, it is just a “best practice”. If we require education-program students to do so, then we must require every “student” editor to do so, and by extension, every WP editor to do so. My biggest gripe with the WMF Education Program and the WEF to date is the lack of commitment to truly curate and make available to the very large education community, WP in the classroom best practices, resources and such. Wikipedia isn’t the place to do that because everything that’s ever been said or will be said on this board—useful or not—is essentially invisible and will remain so. So until the WMF and WEF choose to make “education program best practices” widely accessible in a curated way to the education community, we will continue to waste time trying to fix problems with solutions that won’t work and that won’t even be accessible to those who might benefit from the discussion. --Mike Cline (talk) 15:39, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Mike, it doesn't make any sense to compare these students to regular editors. They're required to do this; others aren't. They're writing student essays; others aren't. They're being supervised and graded; others aren't. There's no point of comparison between the two groups.

But back to the point: sandbox editing would solve every single problem that is raised repeatedly on this page. There is no downside to it. Good material would be carried over into mainspace. Bad material wouldn't. Plagiarized material could be deleted. Material that the students wanted to distance themselves from could be deleted. Teachers wouldn't have the additional pressures that come with live publishing. It would be win-win. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 15:53, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

So a student editor choses to edit directly in the article space in direct violation of the "requirement" to edit in the sandbox before grading. The sudent's edits are otherwise perfectly in compliance with WP norms. Does this student get blocked, chastised, harrassed by editors on this board? What if 20% of the students in the class do the same thing? Does the whole class get blocked? Requiring a "special" class of editor to behave differently than other editors isn't a solution to the problem. --Mike Cline (talk) 16:22, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

This would be a very easy thing to arrange. Teachers registered with the education program would be asked to have their students edit in sandboxes. There would be no reason for students to ignore that instruction. If any did, that could be dealt with via the teacher, just as other problems are dealt with. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 16:36, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

+1 Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 17:20, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

I, too, very much like the sandbox idea. If we formalize it, I'd like to see the good contributions moved from sandboxes to mainspace before the class assignment ends, in order to provide positive feedback to those students who do things the right way, and maybe even get some of them interested in staying around. To speak specifically to Mike Cline's concerns, which strike me as reasonable, the solution is to do it just as SlimVirgin just described. In other words, it wouldn't be a policy violation just because an edit shows up in mainspace, and that makes all those concerns go away, insofar as I can see. Instead, we could make it a matter of expectations, as a guideline rather than a policy, for instructors who work through the program to set up class projects to utilize sandbox space. If that's how the project is set up, students will naturally do it that way. I think it really is a win-win. There will also continue to be classes that just show up and edit outside of the program. They would be treated similarly to other editors: given feedback about expectations and expected, over time, to learn to work with the community. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:58, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

@Tryptofish – The scenario you are describing is really a “best practice” not a “requirement” and there is significant difference between the two. If we accept that “Using Wikipedia in the classroom to achieve learning objectives” is the highest order goal, and that if we do that, any edits coming from that use probably improves participation, scope and quality of content in the encyclopedia, then language (and its intent) is important here.

* We (the community) require students to edit in the sandbox first (It doesn’t matter if that’s not the most effective method of achieving learning objectives, you must use the sandbox first, or else!.)

* We expect students to edit in the sandbox first (You’d better have a very good reason for not doing it.)

* We suggest students edit in the sandbox first (There’s lot of experience that shows that editing in the Sandbox first get better results).

I would hope that the community will take a “best practices” approach to these issues and not the dictatorial, “our way or the highway” approach that some on this board are proposing. The “our way or the highway” approach won’t improve the encyclopedia, it will merely deter those who seek to improve it. --Mike Cline (talk) 00:28, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

The "my way or the highway" characterization reminds me of dictatorial instructors who force their students to edit without knowing anything about the website. This is the encyclopedia anyone can edit, not the encyclopedia you can force anyone to edit. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 10:45, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Mike, I can't speak for "some on this board". Speaking for me, please note the difference between policies and guidelines. You are, correctly in my opinion, saying why a policy won't work here. Maybe "some on this board" need to be told that, but I'm talking about a guideline. As I said, we could make it a matter of expectations, as a guideline rather than a policy, for instructors who work through the education program to set up class projects to utilize sandbox space. That's what I'm saying. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:58, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I've been following with interest the discussion on sandboxes. I used to always have my students work in sandboxes, and indeed would not let them put anything on Wikipedia before I approved the content. After discussion with various Wikipedians, I realized that this does not help students learn how the wiki collaborative process works. I now spend much time teaching about Wikipedia policies, how to avoid plagiarism, reviewing the potential topics and having them seek advice on talk and project pages about their proposed work from Wikipedians prior to any mainspace postings. The only students who now begin writing in the sandbox are those creating new articles, which I generally discourage and only approve in rare cases. Other students, after their initial learning and engagement with Wikipedians, begin writing in the mainspace, which I believe helps them better learn how the wiki process works. It's been a better learning experience for them, and there have been comparatively few problems. And when any issue arises, I seek advice, and use it as a learning experience to improve my assignments.DStrassmann (talk) 03:57, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Sandy, you embedded a few questions and suggestions in your comments above. I think some of them are directed to the community and some to the WMF/WEF, depending on who has the ability to implement the answer. Here's my take on some of your points.

• Put out a blooming press release that will discourage that tells the truth, and will help discourage every Tom, Dick and Harry professor from unleashing students on Wikipedia to a) push their pet theories into a top-10 website, b) create an amount of copyvio established editors can't keep up with, and c) come in here with the mistaken impression that they can guide students in editing Wikipedia when they have never done it themselves: This is an interesting one. I can think of a couple of different interpretations of this -- a press release to directly discourage professors from participating in the EP; or a PR intended to make it clear what the pitfalls are and what succeeds and what doesn't. I am not sure I would support the former; I think the latter is a good idea. However, at the moment my preference would be to do very little outward bound communication to publicize the EP. That doesn't mean stopping the existing newsletter and blog; to me it means no new outreach efforts. There is plenty to do with the existing groups that want to engage with Wikipedia, and we need to figure out how the community can best solve the problems you describe.
• Editors ... who want to write content and used to love mentoring new editors who would stay on and help and who have no interest in being unpaid TAs to students who are only here for a grade and will not generate any useful content should be free to do that ..., and should be able to come here and say, here's a problem from this program, will the resources on this board deal with them: The problem I see here is that there are not many ways the resources on this board can help. One thing both the WMF/WEF and individual editors can do is talk to the professor involved, as Blue Rasberry did yesterday for the course that brought you here this time, and as Philippe Beaudette did for Steve Joordens' class that caused so many problems. I think this can be really helpful. In many cases, though, what's also needed is manpower, to review and revert edits. My understanding is that for legal reasons it's not possible for WMF employees to edit Wikipedia as part of their job, and I suspect the same will be true of the WEF, though I don't know that yet. So the labour of cleaning up student edits has to fall on the community. Obviously there are alternatives that have been discussed such as blocking classes but those are not choices that can be made here; those are community policy decisions.
  • I'm not a lawyer, but the WEF is would not be considered a provider of the information, as WMF is, because it owns the domain, so I don't understand why there would be concerns with Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act. How can we get a legal answer all will be satisfied with? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 11:30, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

    We have a pro bono attorney, and I've no doubt they can settle that question for us. We haven't asked yet but we will. But even if the WEF can edit content without legal issues, I'm doubtful that would be a good way to spend the funds we raise -- I see the need to have someone do the edits, but is that a good task for a paid employee to work on? If we could get a grant from a medical professional group to fund someone to do exactly that -- clean up mistaken student edits -- then I could see it, but funds are often going to be allocated (by the grant maker) to other purposes, and as Sandy has pointed out, this is a task that can eat a lot of time. Is that the best use of WEF time? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:16, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

    Thanks. I look forward to hearing back about the possibility of the WEF editing content. If the volunteer community saw someone else chipping in, I think it would make us all feel better, and more like we were all playing for the same team. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 14:22, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

• Professor rights were granted here to a course whose very design encouraged POV editing. Why did no one even read the course design, or alternately, were the people reading the course design so unversed in content building that they couldn't recognize the built-in problems? What is the purpose of this board if faulty course design is approved?: I'm going to have to leave this question for others to respond to -- I don't read the course designs and user rights applications here, just because I don't have time. This is something handled by the community, not the WMF/WEF; here is the user rights grant discussion for that course's professor.

• User:Ktr101? Also could you please note below if you are seeking a seat on the board of the WEF as a Wikipedian? Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 11:35, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

• Absolutely not, as I have way too much on my plate right now, and I have never had any plans on doing so. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 15:40, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

• In the real world, when a student plagiarizes, they usually get a big fat F. Why must we tolerate it in here? If the WMF cannot or will not do something, why don't we get a community policy to block the entire course as soon as we have one instance of plagiarism, since the profs are never checking their student edits as Jbmurray did?: I don't think anyone wants to tolerate it -- the only discussions I've seen that are less than condemnatory are ones in which it's pointed out that the students involved often include online sources that directly reveal the plagiarism, so it seems clear that many students are not trying to deceive; they simply don't understand that it's plagiarism even when the source is cited. Either way, of course, it has to go. I think contacting the professor in these cases is usually the best way to go -- I've done it for a couple of classes I've assisted with. What would you like to see the WEF do once a class has started, beyond talking to the professor? As for a community policy, people at this board can help by formulating something for broader review by the rest of the community. We'd have to have something like consensus here on what to recommend, though, and I don't think we have that.

I skipped your last paragraph because I think it's the same topic as my first bullet above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:46, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

• Don't see a good place to thread my replies in here... but as a couple points: I've never run a class where 100% of students used sandboxes before going live. I probably never will. For most of the classes I am involved with, doing so would defeat a significant part of the purpose of the assignment. Unless somehow community consensus is arrived at to ban anyone who runs a class that isn't 100% sandboxed, I'll keep doing so. That said, none of my students edits have ever been brought up here as problematic, and as far as I know the only instances of blatant plagiarism in any classes I ambassadored for were caught by myself or the professor. Those students failed the assignment (and the class.) Just because I don't publicize that a student failed doesn't mean they didn't fail. Some other edits from students in classes I've run have had problems, but generally not revert on sight worthy problems. Future classes I will be watching more closely (partly because I am likely going to be resourced by Berkeley to do so,) and I reaaaalllly doubt that any of them will ever be brought up here as problems. I'd also like to point out that currently, every single person involved in the US education program except for professors/TA's and Jami are volunteers. Kevin Gorman (talk) 01:59, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Thanks for ensuring well-managed student assignments, Kevin. If the whole program was well managed, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I wonder if the WEF will actually want to chip in. They should be asking their pro bono lawyer if it is possible. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 09:37, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
• While I understand the frustration college classes participating on wiki have brought, I think it's important to address why we have the program at all. The WMF goal is to bring more users into the fold. If new users are a problem for current Wikipedians, they should encourage WMF to end the program. Our volunteer effort is not able to supervise students creating copyvio problems in the way that has been suggested. Realistically, anyone can join Wikipedia whether they're a college student or not, so perhaps Wikipedians ought to discuss how much of the current and future userbase they want thinned out. Chris Troutman (talk) 05:02, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
  • User:Chris troutman, to the best of my memory, the WMF WMF Education Program officially dropped the goal of editor retention a while back. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 09:35, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
    • Just a point of clarification, the Wikimedia Foundation's strategic goals have not changed. Different departments within WMF work on different goals: for example, the Education Program works on adding quality, diverse content to Wikipedia; the operations team works on stabilizing the infrastructure; the Growth team (formerly E3) works on editor retention. The Education Program has never had editor retention as a goal, so it was not "dropped", and the Foundation has other departments working on editor retention (as they have been). -- LiAnna Davis (WMF) (talk) 19:04, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
      • Chris? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 12:48, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
        • Biosthmors I'm not sure why you're asking for a reply from me. As has been explained, Campus Ambassadors like myself are trying to bring new users to Wikipedia. You should know this. You tell me that you don't like how new users in the Education Program do things; noted. I respond that new users join everyday, as part of a college class or otherwise. Our current output is the best it's going to get. I suggest you have a larger problem you should address. Chris Troutman (talk) 20:49, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
          • Chris, that's quite pessimistic to think the community, which is dissatisfied, should settle for the status quo. Maybe you should tell the community to give up and the WEF to disband, then, if they can't help things improve? Please specify my larger problem. I guess it really was a waste to help write Wikipedia:Student assignments, then. I'm trying to bring new users to Wikipedia myself, but responsibly. "Edit wisely" would be the short of it. It's as if the WMF says this: "please everyone, come screw up this place, and force students to edit, 'cause this is the 'encyclopedia anyone can edit!', and I use that propaganda to justify my job!" If you really want to go to outreach, maybe you should hold a sign on the side of the street that says "Edit Wikipedia"? Just a thought. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 09:08, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Sandboxes and other "best practices"

Starting a sub-discussion here since I didn't want it to get lost in the discussion above — but @Mike Cline: I'd love to draw you out more on your perception of a "lack of commitment to truly curate and make available to the very large education community, WP in the classroom best practices, resources and such", and on the discussion of sandboxes. I'm wondering if you are aware of the Education Portal, where education program leaders globally come together to share resources. The page I linked there contains all of the materials developed by education programs globally (educational efforts are underway in more than 60 countries). You might also want to review the online training, which you're welcome to make suggestions on. If you have better suggestions for ways to curate all the best practices we've accumulated, I'm very open to hearing them!

Specifically in regard to sandboxes: in our pilot program in the US, we had students work in sandboxes, and the overwhelming community response was that sandboxes were hindering students' abilities to collaborate with the general editing community. When students worked in sandboxes, they missed the opportunity to collaborate with and get feedback from other editors, so their articles sometimes took wrong directions; by the time they moved them to the article namespace, the structure didn't work, or it had too much of an essay-like tone, for example. If they'd had the chance to get feedback from other editors early in the process by working in the article namespace, they could have headed off the problems. I'll also share our experiences with the Wikipedia Education Program Brazil, which had students work exclusively in sandboxes: They found that some students were much less motivated to contribute good work because they didn't think anyone would ever read it, since it was in a sandbox. Never underestimate the power of "anyone could read this right now" to convince students to work harder! And because most students add content in the same month, the Ambassadors quickly became overwhelmed when they felt responsible for reviewing all of the student work to ensure it was "acceptable" to be moved into the Portuguese Wikipedia article namespace. The upshot is that months later, good quality content on topics not covered on the Portuguese Wikipedia is still sitting in sandboxes, and the students have absolutely zero motivation to ever edit, since they didn't actually experience Wikipedia editing; they just learned wiki syntax. Clearly, though, sandboxes aren't all bad; what we've come to decide is that we explain the pros and cons of each approach, and let the professor make an educated decision. You can see that advice reflected in the four-slide sandbox discussion in the professor training and the Sample Syllabus (note that this brochure, as well as the Instructor Basics, Case Studies, and Essentials brochures, are all physically snail-mailed to every professor before the start of the term). I am always open to suggestions for improving the information contained in these resources. -- LiAnna Davis (WMF) (talk) 19:13, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Note that the on-wiki training includes sandbox advice for both students and instructors. Improvements or suggestions for improvement are most welcome. Here are the four slides that cover sandboxes:

• To sandbox or not to sandbox? - this is only part of the Ambassadors and educators training (not the student training).
• How to use a sandbox for existing articles - the top section is part of all the trainings, while the "your role as the expert" has some additional advice for the instructors. Some parallel role-specific advice is included in the Ambassadors training.
• How to use a sandbox for stub articles - likewise, this includes general advice for using a sandbox if you're expanding a stub, and instructor-specific advice beneath.
• How to use a sandbox for new articles - same pattern here.

--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 19:37, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

@LiAnna – I want to respond to your question by starting with four words – tactics, strategy (goals and learning objectives), knowledge base, and scalability. In this response, the concepts behind these words are all linked. I am going to start with scalability. Because we (the WMF and the community) remain hamstrung by the methods used to pilot the Education Program—personal recruitment of professors, campus ambassadors, etc.—we have lost sight of the true scope of the Education community we are trying to support. There are literally 1000s of instructors and 100,000s of students that would benefit from using Wikipedia in the classroom to further Information Fluency learning. The great majority of the Education Community that would benefit from using Wikipedia will never see that benefit under the current methodology. And those that do stumble into using WP without access to comprehensive best practices are likely to do more harm than good to the community and WP. The current methods just are not scalable and the resources that have been accumulated are essentially invisible to Education community, let alone of dubious usefulness. Try to find the Education Portal/Tips and Resources without using the specific URL or page title. You can’t. Even if you could, once you get there you find a pretty much random lump of documents in multiple languages with very little insight into what individual documents contain. Even if you begin to explore them if you’ve had the patience to do so, you essentially find marketing brochures. Although the accumulation of this material is laudable, it has essentially been a tactical response to “We need some resources” without much thought (strategy) as to what the purpose and goals of the resources were. It is obvious to me that the current state of the resources was merely a tactical approach predicated on the non-scalable methodology (and platform) used to pilot the program.

What’s needed in my opinion is a well curated knowledge base that is readily accessible by anyone interested in using Wikipedia in the classroom, functions pretty much autonomously from a technology standpoint and is easily supported by non-technical volunteers. In my ideal knowledge base, discipline specific lesson plans and course syllabi, learning objectives, case studies, best practices, tutorials, et al. would all be organized and visualized in ways that any instructor could immediately find the resources they were interested in. Resources would be rated or peer reviewed by the crowd so that instructors could evaluate whether or not other instructors found the resource useful. Everything in the knowledge base would be searchable, tagged and organized. Such a knowledge base on a public website accompanied by forums, discussion boards, blogs and volunteer resources would be very powerful in addressing the true scope of the Education Community (students and instructors) that should be benefiting from using Wikipedia in the classroom. WP and the community would benefit because of the much higher probability of classes using WP would be doing so under the guidance of best practices and proven resources.

I am confident that you and others on this board are now thinking that this is much too grandiose, too much work and probably too expensive. If we continue to believe that the only solution is to use the Media Wiki platform, then we best be thinking—this is impossible—as the platform and the community that it supports has too many technical, cultural and rule based barriers to overcome. Yet the solution is at the WEF’s finger tips if they would just chose to do it. Other than a domain name and server space (both very inexpensive), such a solution supported with a handful of volunteers is essentially free. World class web-based collaboration and knowledge base platforms, easily supported by non-technical volunteers are available and free to non-profits. A knowledge base like I describe could be organized and running in a matter of hours. All the good and not so good ideas that everyone is burying on this board and associated wikis could be made accessible to 1000s of instructors in very short order. Accompanied by some targeting marketing, WP best practices for using the encyclopedia in the classroom would be available to the entire Educational Community should its members choose to use them. So to your question about ideas to improve the current set of resources, they certainly can be improved (as almost any tactic can) but to what end. As long as the focus is trying to scale an essentially non-scalable methodology, unsupported by any long-term strategy to reach the entire Educational Community, such ideas to improve current tactics are pretty much a waste of time. The WEF has the charter to service the Educational Community and Wikipedia in this way, but at times it seems they have little appetite for taking this approach and would much rather spend $$ on expensive salaries to replicate non-scalable methodology. --Mike Cline (talk) 12:30, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I read LiAnna's opening post with great interest, and I think that she makes some compelling points, that now cause me to re-think what I said above about wanting all student edits to be in sandboxes. In a way, I feel like it comes down to a balance between (1) the educational benefits of students working in our mainspace, and (2) the disruptive effects of mainspace student edits upon the established editing community. I don't want to unfairly minimize (1), and I ask that the rest of you not unfairly minimize (2). If we put our heads together, I hope we can figure out how best to balance those two priorities. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:30, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I second Tryptofish on this. 1st question: what is the learning objective of class, 2nd question: How can we use WP to help achieve the learning objective. 3rd question: If editing WP helps achieve the objective, what's the best way--sandbox or no sandbox or ???? --Mike Cline (talk) 17:09, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Fundamental questions about the education program

My original question to the WMF has gone unanswered, it appears

Has or hasn't the WMF had any contact with professional socieites to discuss running WP:Student assignments? If the WMF has had contact with professional societies, who has been/was doing it and to which societies? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 08:15, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

In years past:

• I've talked with the Association for Psychological Science (although after their Wikipedia initiative was already underway, started independently by researchers studying how to help newcomers become successful Wikipedia contributors).
• Annie Lin (a sociologist by training) had contact with the American Sociological Association, leading to their Wikipedia initiative along similar lines (and working with the same independent researchers at Carnegie Mellon) as the APS one.
• LiAnna Davis (whose academic training is in communication) talked with the National Communication Association, leading to another similar Wikipedia initiative.

Those are all the ones that I know of. (Outside my WMF role, I'll be doing a Wikipedia workshop next month with the History of Science Society, and the opportunity to improve history of science and related content through participating in the education program will be part it. That's basically the same type of thing a lot of other volunteers have done in their own academic communities; I just mention it because I am also a WMF contractor.)--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 13:15, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

• I've had contact with parts of the American Philosophical Association regarding the USEP. Kevin Gorman (talk) 17:52, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Is the person who sent in an unsolicited resume to the WEF for the ED position a former WMF staffer?

Is the person who sent in an unsolicited resume to the WEF for the ED position a former WMF staffer? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 08:15, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't see how I can fairly answer this -- resume submissions are confidential, so surely we can't provide answers to any potentially identifying questions. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:06, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Is it unfair for me to publicly observe that Annie Lin is a former WMF staffer who has not been to the last two WP:WEF board meetings, and thus appears to be the logical candidate? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 10:59, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

When is it planned for the ED position to be filled? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 11:01, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

It's a top priority, but there's no stated deadline yet. We are still getting feedback (above) about the position and we need to let that conversation run a bit longer before asking for applications. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:54, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Why did the WMF decide to spin-off the education program into a non-profit?

What was the rationale for why the WMF decided to spin-off the education program into a non-profit? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 08:24, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Since the beginning of the Public Policy Initiative in 2010, when the WMF team for that project started the US and Canada Education Programs, the intention has always been to transition from WMF-run to community-run programs (although it has taken quite a bit longer than we had been planning for at the outset). The specific why of the nonprofit WEF being the way that eventually played out is tied up in the history of that transition. I don't think any single person could give you a definitive answer—it's been a complicated process involving a lot of different people at different times—but if you want to dive into that history, some of these sources might help:

• Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2010-06-28/Public Policy Initiative
• Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2010-12-27/Ambassadors
• Wikipedia:Ambassadors/Steering_Committee - see meeting minutes from 2010 to 2012.
• U.S.-Canada Education Program Working Group - this is the group of WMF staff and volunteers who ultimately decided to set up the WEF, and there is a lot of documentation about the meetings and ideas they had leading up to it.

--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 13:38, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Should any Wikipedian who is trying to get a seat on the WEF board openly declare it?

I think so. For background knowledge, per the WEF minutes, the two current Wikipedian seats (one is vacant) are held by Pharos (talk · contribs) and Mike Christie (talk · contribs). I have declared my interest. Will other Wikipedians please delcare theirs, if any are seeking a seat? I think it would be in line with Wikipedia's values and appreciation for transparency. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 08:36, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Next summer elections will begin for WEF board seats; terms are for two years. This seat will be appointed by the board -- we considered running elections but decided that it would be wasteful of our limited resources to put effort into elections for a term of less than a year. We don't have a date by which we plan to make this appointment and it has not been discussed extensively by the board yet, because the priorities have been getting the grant finalized and getting a PM and ED hired. However, it's high priority and discussion of the appointment here would be helpful. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:58, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Can you explain this: There will or won't be elections next summer? Which seat or seats will be appointed? Why hasn't this happened already?

I have little idea what the board has been up to, though you guys do endlessly want to tell us how busy you are. It might have helped if you had long ago co-opted someone (beyond co-opting former WMF staffers).

As to specifics: I personally made a number of suggestions, and nothing has come of them. Why should anyone bother?

The WEF's opacity and unresponsiveness continues to be bewildering. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 20:05, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Jbmurray, I understand your frustration, because it's like nothing has been done. However, I kind of understand why; the main tasks have been bureacratic, and that's always a drain on the creative spirit. And I know Mike has been busy though he did make the time to Skype chat with me once and we've been able to establish email contact as well. You should start emailing Mike back and forth sometimes, in my opinion.

The WEF has their first employee on Nov. 1st. So all of these conversations will take on a much different tone, in my opinion, on that day. Time will tell! Perhaps I'm being too optimistic? Best. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 20:49, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Since Biosth requested I divulge if I were potentially interested in the vacant Wikipedian seat via email: I'm potentially interested in the vacant Wikipedian board seat. Kevin Gorman (talk) 02:03, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Should/can the WEF require Wikipedians who are seeking a seat on the board to get community support?

Should/can the WEF require Wikipedians who are seeking a seat on the board to get community support? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 11:38, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Since this question is at least partly directed at the WEF, I'll respond. I would expect that the community would want to do this, but if it doesn't, that's not something the WEF should require for this appointment. Just to be clear: this appointment is a one-time event; after this the board seats will be elected, with a 2 year term (barring resignations, of course). Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:49, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Will the WEF force regional ambassadors who apply as of Nov. 1 to reveal their real name?

Will the WEF force regional ambassadors who apply as of Nov. 1 to reveal their real name? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 12:56, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Probably this should follow the OTRS policy. The WMF is seeking input on that policy at meta:Talk:Access to nonpublic information policy. Blue Rasberry (talk) 20:03, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Why do you think this is necessary? JMathewson (WMF) (talk) 21:00, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't! =) I oppose it. I'm just curious what the WEF position is. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 23:12, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

The WEF has never discussed this, to my knowledge, but I can't imagine this would be a requirement. It's not really a requirement now so much as the standard that most people have been fine with. JMathewson (WMF) (talk) 00:19, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

What does the word "scaleable" have to do with all this?

Should the WEF look for something "scaleable"? What, exactly, does that word mean in the context of the education program? Does the WEF think they have been handed anything that is anywhere near being "scaleable"? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 14:27, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

We've had this conversation before, but I can give you a quick answer, in my own opinion but based on my experiences with WMF and the transition to WEF. Let me answer your questions out of order:

• No, the WEF does not think it's been handed something that is scaleable. That is why we have had countless meetings about what structural changes we can make, how we can reenergize our human resources (volunteers who support professors and students), etc. Please direct me to where anybody has said we will try to recruit more classes for the upcoming Spring 2014 semester.

• I think the Spring 2014 bit would be a red herring, in my opinion. The real issue would be the line in the ED's job description that says setting annual numeric goals with the program manager to ensure measurable programmatic expansion, which I currently strongly oppose. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 23:16, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

• I think it's perfectly reasonable that the ED will work with the PM to consider support capacity and identify realistic targets each semester, in order to make sure the WEF doesn't spread itself too thin (staff and volunteers). That's the type of support a manager should provide an employee. JMathewson (WMF) (talk) 06:06, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

• ? I'm talking about my objection with the word expansion. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 18:26, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

• I think you're still confusing the difference between supporting more professors who are teaching with Wikipedia and actively recruiting new folks. JMathewson (WMF) (talk) 20:52, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

• And I think the ED's job description doesn't make it clear that telling professors "go away, it's not right for you" is valid support. It sets an arbitrary target for expansion when we probably need shrinkage until we find something worthy. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 10:00, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Expanding the number of classes working on Wikipedia, without good support, seems like a bad idea to me; expanding the support we give to classes already working on Wikipedia, without necessarily increasing their number, seems like a good thing. In my mind that's the meaning of "expansion". Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:31, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Due to the vagueness, let's reword this to a version we can discuss further, then? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 10:56, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• I think we've had this discussion before, but the mission of the WEF is to support educators who who are using Wikipedia in the classroom. The end-game is to support them in a way that benefits both their students and Wikipedia, but the WEF's actions should essentially fit as an answer to "will this support the educator in effectively using Wikipedia as a teaching tool?" That means providing materials, counsel, and general guidance to educators throughout the process. As reiterated repeatedly, we have done practically no outreach for over a year now. Yet new professors continue to contact us (Ambassadors, WP:ENB, me, etc.) about wanting support in the assignment they will be running. So "making the program more scaleable" is the logical next step, as we are clearly limited even now in making sure each educator has the opportunity to get the support they want (or need). I think it's a proactive measure toward a trend that we've observed over the past 7 semesters. Doesn't that make sense as a goal?

Also, since I feel it has been raised above somewhere—you should know that you are not the only person who suggests to "unprepared professors" that they should hold off on a Wikipedia assignment. I have suggested to many professors that they do not quite seem on the right page to run a Wikipedia assignment—either they don't "get" it; they are too stressed about figuring out a grading rubric to demonstrate to me that they are focused on the right things; they don't want to spend any time in class covering the most important Wikipedia policies; their main motivation is that their "educated students can improve Wikipedia's reliability; they are unwilling to hold their students to the same plagiarism standard that they would on another assignment; their main objective is for students to write original research; etc. I even have a list of more than 200 professors who have indicated an interest in teaching with Wikipedia but to whom I've advised we don't yet have the capacity to properly support them. I care about that because I care about the student experience when editing but also because I deeply care about the impact they have on Wikipedia and editors.

And, in case it's of interest to you, here are some ideas we've discussed about scaling those support resources:

• Spend some resources on training instructional design professionals at universities to understand Wikipedia and best practices for teaching with Wikipedia. They are already a part of existing infrastructure that is trusted and utilized at a lot of universities, and the role fits neatly into their job description and expertise (to which many of them have graduate degrees)
• Collaborate similarly with academic organizations and other relevant institutions (think WikiProject Medicine)
• Re-imagine the Regional Ambassador system to one that is topic-focused, and give those RAs some training and experience with advising professors in their assignment design.
• Establish a better on-boarding process for new professors that offers our current best practices and materials (to which LiAnna points above) but also advises them through actually completing the very assignment they are giving their students, even if just once. This gives them a better understanding of Wikipedia and helps them see the obstacles and reasons they may want to readjust their assignment. I think this is far more powerful than all of the "talking at" professors that tends to happen in the current process. Seriously, it'd be great for people to read every guideline and policy before editing, but I'm pretty sure that would lead to an editing community of exactly zero.

I'm just highlighting some of these to show you that there is a group of people who are thinking about ways to improve the Wikipedia Education Program and who have good ideas, and these methods to scale our influence are a good representation of those ideas. I am incredibly proud of the work that the WEF board members have done, and I genuinely believe they're going to make some amazing strides forward, or I wouldn't have possibly accepted the challenge of transitioning into a role with them. JMathewson (WMF) (talk) 20:54, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Are unprepared classroom edits ethical?

Wikipedia is the encyclopedia anyone can edit—not the encylopedia you can force anyone to edit, especially when you're ignorant. No? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 12:51, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Project with user names ending in "ext2013"

List of editors found so far

• 2c_ext2013 (talk, contributions)
• 2E_EXT2013 (talk, contributions)
• 3B_EXT2013 (talk, contributions)
• 3c_ext2013 (talk, contributions)
• 3d_ext2013 (talk, contributions)
• 3e_ext2013 (talk, contributions)
• 5B_EXT2013 (talk, contributions)
• 5C_EXT2013 (talk, contributions)
• 5e_ext2013 (talk, contributions)
• 6a_EXT2013 (talk, contributions)
• 6B_EXT2013 (talk, contributions)
• 6C_EXT2013 (talk, contributions)
• 6D_EXT2013 (talk, contributions)
• 8Dext2013 (talk, contributions)
• 9B_EXT2013 (talk, contributions)
• 9c_ext2013 (talk, contributions)
• 9D_EXT2013 (talk, contributions)
• 11B_EXT2013 (talk, contributions)
• 11c_ext2013 (talk, contributions)
• 11D_EXT2013 (talk, contributions)
• 12B_ext2013 (talk, contributions)
• 13B_EXT2013 (talk, contributions)
• 13C_EXT2013 (talk, contributions)
• 13D_EXT2013 (talk, contributions)
• 14c_ext2013 (talk, contributions)
• 15e_ext2013 (talk, contributions)
• 16A_EXT2013 (talk, contributions)
• 16B_EXT2013 (talk, contributions)
• 16C_EXT2013 (talk, contributions)
• 16D_EXT2013 (talk, contributions)
• 16E_EXT2013 (talk, contributions)
• 17A_EXT2013 (talk, contributions)
• 17B_EXT2013 (talk, contributions)
• 17C_EXT2013 (talk, contributions)
• 17D_EXT2013 (talk, contributions)
• 17E_EXT2013 (talk, contributions)
• Group9A_EXT2013 (talk, contributions)

List of likely user names:

1a_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 1b_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 1c_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 1d_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 1e_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 2a_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 2b_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 2c_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 2d_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 2e_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 3a_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 3b_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 3c_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 3d_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 3e_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 4a_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 4b_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 4c_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 4d_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 4e_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 5a_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 5b_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 5c_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 5d_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 5e_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 6a_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 6b_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 6c_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 6d_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 6e_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 7a_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 7b_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 7c_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 7d_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 7e_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 8a_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 8b_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 8c_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 8d_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 8e_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 9a_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 9b_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 9c_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 9d_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 9e_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 10a_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 10b_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 10c_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 10d_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 10e_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 11a_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 11b_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 11c_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 11d_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 11e_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 12a_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 12b_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 12c_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 12d_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 12e_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 13a_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 13b_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 13c_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 13d_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 13e_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 14a_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 14b_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 14c_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 14d_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 14e_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 15a_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 15b_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 15c_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 15d_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 15e_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 16a_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 16b_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 16c_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 16d_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 16e_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 17a_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 17b_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 17c_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 17d_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 17e_ext2013 (talk, contributions) 1A_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 1B_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 1C_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 1D_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 1E_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 2A_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 2B_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 2C_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 2D_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 2E_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 3A_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 3B_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 3C_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 3D_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 3E_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 4A_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 4B_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 4C_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 4D_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 4E_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 5A_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 5B_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 5C_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 5D_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 5E_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 6A_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 6B_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 6C_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 6D_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 6E_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 7A_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 7B_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 7C_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 7D_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 7E_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 8A_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 8B_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 8C_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 8D_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 8E_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 9A_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 9B_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 9C_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 9D_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 9E_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 10A_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 10B_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 10C_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 10D_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 10E_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 11A_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 11B_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 11C_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 11D_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 11E_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 12A_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 12B_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 12C_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 12D_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 12E_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 13A_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 13B_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 13C_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 13D_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 13E_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 14A_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 14B_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 14C_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 14D_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 14E_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 15A_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 15B_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 15C_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 15D_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 15E_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 16A_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 16B_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 16C_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 16D_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 16E_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 17A_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 17B_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 17C_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 17D_EXT2013 (talk, contributions) 17E_EXT2013 (talk, contributions)

Discussion

I'm having problems with a new editor 5e ext2013 who claims to be editing the article Chytridiomycota as part of a class assignment (see discussion here. The user doesn't understand the proper use of sources, is adding original research to the article, and adds material contrary to WP:Undue. I was wondering if their professor has registered an account through the education program, and would appreciate advice on what to do next. This does not seem to be associated with this mycology class. Sasata (talk) 18:59, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

To address one concern, Special:Log/5e_ext2013 doesn't indicate any course page activity in the Education Program space. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 19:07, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

I've reverted an essay-like edit from 5e ext2013. Then I look around and see some student has charm: "Thank you for putting the grade of five separate people in danger because you have nothing better to do. Get a life." Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 19:14, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

It appears there is a fairly large group from the same class editing a wide range of topics mostly related to extinct taxa. Here are the users I have found 8Dext2013, 5B_EXT2013, 6a_EXT2013, 9D EXT2013, and 2E EXT2013. If it is a class project the instructor has not informed anyone here I dont think.--Kevmin § 22:38, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

(I renamed this section to make it easier to find, and I added a list of editors.) I have been cleaning up incredibly messy citations by a number of these authors. I'm very glad that they are adding to WP (they are adding tons of citations and good content to the article I have cleaned up), but they would be better editors if they took some advice and learned about WP while also learning about endangered and extinct animals. I have offered some advice on the "ext2013" editors' talk pages. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:35, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

I just created a list of likely user names and checked the contributions pages for all of them. I added active editors to the list above. Each of the active user names appears to be editing a single article about an endangered or extinct species, except for one cheeky editor, who is editing landline, an endangered technology. I have to hand it to that kid or kids; very clever.

I put a Talk page note on every one of the pages listed above. I would love to be a fly on the wall in their next class, assuming they meet in-person. I googled around a bit to try to find a syllabus or web page for this class, but I didn't find anything likely. – Jonesey95 (talk) 04:08, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

I just couldn't stay away, so I did some more googling. One of the students mentioned Rutgers, so I tracked down an anthropology professor there who teaches a course on extinction. Take a look at his syllabus web page, specifically the syllabus for the Extinction course. Do a "find" for "Wikipedia" in that syllabus, and you will see that there is a group project to create or edit Wikipedia articles. The assignment was due this week, at least according the syllabus.

All of the evidence is circumstantial, but it lines up pretty nicely as far as I can see. I sent the professor a courtesy e-mail message to let him know that his course was being talked about, as one would do here on WP if someone was being discussed.

I hope he grades on a curve. – Jonesey95 (talk) 04:38, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

I received a nice note from the professor linked. An excerpt:

Thank you very much for the kind and courteous note. These are indeed my students. Thanks too for the nice welcome bit you have offered the various groups. I suspect more groups may pop up as the due date is today and there is a great deal of last minute behavior.

I expect that we'll see editing activity on these articles tail off quickly in the next 24 hours, after which we might want to take a look at the resulting articles and clean them up a bit. – Jonesey95 (talk) 12:15, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks to all for being rather understanding. Students have a new deadline of Sunday Oct 27 at 10 PM EST. As my TAs and I go through these we will also try and fix issues. Extprof (talk) 18:35, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Parts of the General Information and Anatomy sections of Gorilla gorilla diehli are clearly plagiarized from this article. I reverted those changes with an explanation and notified the editor (5C_EXT2013) who added the text, but that editor reverted my changes. – Jonesey95 (talk) 12:01, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Jonesey95. Nice work. Did you get the sense that the professor had run the assignment before or was planning to run the assignment again? If they are planning on running it again, I could help set up a course page so that 1) the students get a good running start with good advice and links to places where to get help and 2) we Wikipedia editors can see what the assignment design and grading system is like to see if we have any recommendations for improvement. Here's an example course page I helped a professor develop, which in raw user space form is here. And that course page represented a consensus between a Wikipedian and an instructor. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 12:28, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

I've welcomed the professor to Wikipedia. They left a nice note at Sasata's user talk page, and I thanked them for that. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 15:35, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

I added a partial list of topics being edited to my talk page per request of Jonesey95. I will update as I get more topics. Extprof (talk) 23:10, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

There is an instance of plagiarism mentioned above. Is this second one from the same course? And if so, will the prof and TAs be checking for and removing all plagiarism? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:48, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

RfC?

I've started User:Biosthmors/RfC to jot down some of my thoughts. Feel free to start a talk page with comments. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 17:06, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Legal situations

Maybe the WMF doesn't care about copyvio and doesn't care about the effect student editing is having on established editors and doesn't care about having anything in place to stem the tide, but you know who does care and who does prosecute? The American Psychiatric Association. [4] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:12, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Surely an isolated incident? Oh... perhaps not. Once again the source URL is included, so there's no intention to deceive. William Avery (talk) 12:39, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Surely you're not serious? It is an extreme problem among student/class editors, one that takes valuable time away from established editors, a problem that the WMF/WEF is well aware of, and one that IMO they have an obligation to do something about because they know about the extent of the problem. Established editors have the choice to either abandon their watchlists so they can write new/needed content, letting existing articles deteriorate, or spend all of their time cleaning up after students. I set out a month ago to update medical FAs per the newly published DSM5, and all I do is act as a teacher assistant every day. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:28, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

You are correct. William Avery (talk) 14:08, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

OK, so in terms of how we would treat regular editors,

1. I see you reverted that edit and notified the editor. IMO, every edit from User:16C EXT2013 should be automatically reverted (if we take copyvio seriously), and the professor should be notified.
2. If there is one more copyvio from that group, the entire group should be reverted and blocked.
3. If there is no identified prof or course, we should treat the entire group as meatpuppets and block the lot.
4. This is not our job; it's a WMF program, they need to deal with known copyvio issues.

Extreme measures? Depends. Do we or do we not take copyvio seriously? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:34, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

I support Sandy's suggestion. We need to have a close to zero tolerance policy on copyright violations. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 11:33, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Maybe we could block a whole class if more than two out of 25 students violated copyright? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 12:55, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia administrators have a whole complex system for blocking individuals who repeatedly misbehave after a series of warnings. The WEF is entirely separate from them and has no such powers. Blocking an innocent student or an entire university course because of two students is asking for real legal trouble. Rjensen (talk) 13:31, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

By the word we, I meant we as the Wikipedia community. I do not speak for the WEF, and I did not have them in mind. What kind of legal trouble were you thinking of, though? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 14:03, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

The university lawyer could complain to WMF or threaten to sue WEF if someone here deliberately disrupts a class. Rjensen (talk) 21:52, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

That seems like a bit of a stretch to me. Wikipedia is not here purely as an exercise for classes; it is a working institution which many classes would like to interact with; "disruption" has to be seen in that light. If you took a group of geology students down to a working mine, they'd all have to wear hard hats and hi-vis, and follow the instructions of the mine safety officer; if too many curious students found a way to disrupt production by wandering into the path of a haul truck or pressing the temptingly big red button on a piece of production machinery, classes would probably be removed from the mine, and no court would be persuaded by any legal claim that this removal was an unreasonable disruption of the classes' inalienable right to blunder round extramural environments. bobrayner (talk) 23:12, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

WEF is not a government agency like mine inspectors. Indeed it has no authority over Wikipedia whatever, and no responsibility for enforcement or for setting up kangaroo courts without rules of procedure or presumption of innocence. All that is handled by the Wiki administrators, who have a well-developed system. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rjensen (talk • contribs) 10:51, 28 October 2013‎ (UTC)

I'm no lawyer, but it's difficult to see how university counsel could do much more than try to persuade. I don't think they could sue anyone at Wikipedia/Wikimedia. As an individual editor, I do not have a legal right to edit without anyone else confounding me. And neither do student editors. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:46, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

The suggestion that anyone could be (succesfully) sued for blocking a class for disruptively editing Wikipedia is preposterous and has no basis in reality. If there's an incredibly disruptive class to the point where blocking them is a worthwhile step, it's one we should absolutely take and has no legal risk.Kevin Gorman (talk) 18:00, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I see a whole bunch of Wikipolitics taking over again, and I have stopped trying to follow the threads above. Seems like some folks just want a job, while the rest of us deal with this mess that interferes with not only our editing at all, but also of editing with pleasure. Anyway, the point is, when we have evidence that the prof is not checking the student edits, after more than one instance of plagiarism, we should be able to block 'em all. We are not TAs. In fact, we should be able to block 'em all whenever we have evidence of disruptive editing and a prof doing nothing about it.

The secondary point is that it would not be hard at all for some clever lawyer to show to the APA, who does defend their copyright, that the WMF does nothing about it even when they know there is a problem. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:37, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Students can be blocked through the same pathway any other editor can, and when warranted, should be. In cases where student classes cause widespread disruption, I see nothing wrong with bringing a proposal to this noticeboard to block the whole lot of them, and if enough evidence of disruptive evidence is provided, I would support such a group block. As far as I know, no one has tried to bring such a proposal to this noticeboard or to AN previously, which any editor is capable of doing. Tangentially, I doubt WMF would have any liability for student copyright infringements. IANAL, but do have graduate legal training in copyright and cyberlaw. Kevin Gorman (talk) 18:00, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I am encouraged that I should be able to bring examples of disruptive student editing to this board (they typically appear as term-end approaches, which is when the student edits overwhelm). I hope that when I do, I will get admin attention here, since it is unlikely that the depth and breadth of issues we have discussed here will be understood over at WP:ANI or other noticeboards. There is also the issue of likely student editing, even if the course or prof remains unidentified. Also, IANAL either, but I doubt that anyone has presented anywhere the case of an org that knows and does nothing. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:19, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

The new WEF is not part of Wikipedia and has no power or authority to enforce Wikipedia's rules or to block anyone or any class from editing. All it can do is report a problem to the Wikipedia panels that deal with disruptive editors. As for threats of lawsuits, one angry phone call from a University lawyer to WMF or to a funding agency will cause no end of trouble for WEF. Rjensen (talk) 22:21, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

There are absolutely plenty of admins involved in the education program who can block people. And I guarantee it would take a lot more than one angry phone call from a lawyer to WMF over a blocked student to effect WEF in any way shape or form. What the hell grounds would they be suing on in the first place? Wikipedia is a private site with every right to control who can (and cannot) edit it. WMF has consistently stood on principle where legal issues are involved, and doesn't fold on something just because they get an angry call from a lawyer. Kevin Gorman (talk) 22:27, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

WEF has no authority to patrol Wikipedia or to use access to Wikipedia as a tool to punish individuals or universities. Any decision to punish a professor or his class would need the approval of the WEF board. Any WEF ambassador who acts on his own in the name of WEF in defiance of WEF policies will get terminated by WEF. Rjensen (talk) 22:53, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Bullshit. Disruptive users should be blocked, whether or not they are students. Disruptive groups of users can be blocked by community consensus, whether or not they are students. I'll note that you're not on the WEF board and thus not in a position to speak for them, but if this is the position WEF adopts, I will actively advocate for WEF's status as a Wikimedia affiliate to be revoked, while continuing to do my own education outreach. Such a position would damage the already battered reputation of the education program. Kevin Gorman (talk) 00:37, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Kevin ... yes, there are, and should be, admins who patrol this board. I don't know from which planet Rjensen is speaking (I hope not one of authority). I get a sense that something is spinning out of control here, but I'm not sure I want to know precisely what. I am relieved if whatever involves Mike Christie, at least, but based on the conversations on this page, and unless things get back on track, I am now increasingly worried that we may need another noticeboard for reporting issues with student editing, since this board seems to be becoming more of a forum for politics. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:45, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, thanks for the shout out, Sandy! As far as reporting issues is concerned, I think another board is not going to help you or others in your position, because I don't think there is any consensus about what to do about the problems you're encountering. If there were a consensus, I'm sure you could find editors and admins here to help implement it. To use a medical analogy, I think the WEF can be a wellness program, and perhaps even an inoculation program if things work well, but it can't be a cure for the problems you're running into. Those are community problems and there's no consensus on what to do about them. That includes me -- I've read all the suggestions and truly don't know which is the best way to go. There are strong arguments for and against most options that have been suggested. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:55, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Mike, as a member of the board of the WEF, can you clarify that Richard's statements do not represent WEF policy? If WEF members who happen to be ENWP admins get kicked out of WEF for taking normal administrative actions against participating students, this is an issue that needs to be raised at a broader board then ENB. Kevin Gorman (talk) 01:08, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

There's no relevant policy yet -- we haven't worked on any such thing so far. Your understanding is the same as mine; I can't imagine that the WEF would ever support such a thing, and I certainly would oppose it myself. However, I'm not completely clear what Rjensen is saying -- if he's just saying that a WEF employee who broke a WEF policy would be liable for termination then that's not unreasonable. I just don't think the WEF would ever come up with a policy which would prevent an employee from doing something that was aligned with the community policies. I suppose WP:INVOLVED might apply in some cases. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:20, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the fast reply. My interpretation of his words was that an ambassador (i.e., a volunteer) would be removed from the program were they to take an administrative action in line with ENWP's community policies without first consulting the board. I can easily imagine WP:INVOLVED and other relevant ENWP policies preventing a particular WEF member from taking action, and can also of course imagine a WEF employee being sanctioned for breaking WEF policy, but wanted to make sure I was correct in assuming that it wasn't WEF board policy that WEF policies took precedence over ENWP policies. Kevin Gorman (talk) 01:27, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

He was a member of the working group and is a regional ambassador (as am I.) He is not a member of the board of WEF. What he is suggesting is analogous to WMUK saying that they'll kick out any member who takes an administrative action against a fellow member of WMUK on the English Wikipedia, and is completely absurd. I have no idea how he thinks WEF would have such authority, or why he thinks it would be a good idea. Kevin Gorman (talk) 00:47, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I know you asked Mike, but I think a general statement should be made about the WEF: we fully intend to comply with all Wikipedia policies, and I think we expect our members to do so, too. What Mike was pointing out is there is not currently a Wikipedia policy, for example, to block an entire class based on one or two students' edits. However, of course we would expect someone to block the student if s/he is doing exactly what would get her/him blocked in any case. And I'd be the first person to defend that action to the professor and explain why it happened. Now I don't know if that answers your question in-depth (is someone asking if we, as the WEF, would make these blocks? Or would make the group blocks, even if that weren't a Wikipedia policy?), but hopefully it helps, and hopefully I didn't put words into Mike's mouth. :) JMathewson (WMF) (talk) 01:23, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I was far more curious about Rjensen's statements than any of Mike's previous statements; Rjensen seemed to imply that the WEF board viewed students as a special protected class immune from blocking without WEF board approval. I'm glad, seeing your and Mike's comments, that this is not the case. Kevin Gorman (talk) 01:30, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm happy to explain my position. In my opinion the WEF board should have a written agreement with professors to the effect that the professor will comply with Wikipedia and WEF policies and have full control over the students involved. The agreement should say that if WEF is not satisfied it can terminate its relationship with the professor. WEF should never get between the professor and the student. I also suggest that all the WEF ambassadors have a written agreement with the WEF board that they will follow WEF policies or risk being terminated. In my opinion the decision to disaffiliate a professor is one the WEF board (not the staff and not the ambassadors) should decide. As for WEF having police powers (to impose a block inside Wikipedia), I think not. That was never considered while I was on the WEF planning committee and is not in the WEF charter. I think it would be a very bad idea--something like a self-appointed vigilante mob that reports to no one. WMF controls Wikipedia and the blocking process; it deliberately set up WEF as a totally separate legal entity independent of Wikipedia with no blocking powers. Rjensen (talk) 02:37, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia as it exists is close enough to a self-appointed mob that reports to no one; we operate under a consensus model, and have well established practices for blocking people. Students aren't special, and they can and will be blocked. Many WEF members will also be Wikipedia admins. Your original suggestion was to disaffiliate any WEF member who, in their role as a Wikipedia volunteer, blocked a student. That's absolutely silly. It's also bad practice to have ambassador agreements be between the board and not staff; although it's not always easy in an early start up to make the divide between management and governance clear, signing hundreds of ambassador agreements definitely falls on the management side (and is thus a staff role.) Also, any good ambassador regularly communicates with students without it going through professors first. An ambassador who doesn't is doing it wrong. Ambassadors also should absolutely have the choice of what professors they work with, and given the scarcity of ambassadors, if an amb doesn't want to work with a prof, that prof should be discouraged from running an assignment unless another willing ambassador is avaiable. Kevin Gorman (talk) 06:04, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

In my opinion it is essential that a WEF ambassador not get between as student & prof--for example by penalizing a student for doing an assignment in a way the ambassador does not approve when the prof does not agree with the ambassador. WEF is offering to help professors, not disrupt their classes. That I think should be a policy understood by ambassadors, and if they trump WEF policy by using their Wiki administrator role then they are not well suited for a WEF role. I suggest the WEF board should set one overall policy for ambassadors, and not have the staff negotiate separate deals with each one.

That raises a new question: what can WEF do to enlist, train and encourage ambassadors. I would propose regular in-person 2-day meetings (of staff, ambassadors, editors & professors), grouped probably by academic discipline. That = $$$ travel but I think foundations might like the idea. Rjensen (talk) 07:07, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

If anyone wants peer-to-peer training to be an ambassador then they can contact me. I would train anyone who understands less than I do or collaborate with anyone who wants for us to train each other. I am not WEF staff - I am just a community volunteer. We can do this by Skype, Hangout, or other video conference software, or if necessary, by phone. Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:41, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for stating that Bluerasberry. That is much more helpful than the anti-Wikipedia region-specific page we currently have at WP:Education program. But I plan on rewriting that on Nov. 1. It can simply link to helpful places and provide short short short but helpful info, like your offer. Who else would offer that service? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 17:01, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

IRC office hour—Wednesday, 10/30, 8pm eastern

We welcome you to join some WMF and WEF US/Canada education program folks for an IRC office hour on Wednesday, October 30th, from 8-9pm eastern (10/31 0:00 UTC). We can use this time to answer questions, receive feedback, and discuss the transition from WMF to WEF. We will be using the #wikimedia-office channel, and we look forward to speaking with you! JMathewson (WMF) (talk) 20:48, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

• I am unable to join this one but I would join a future office hour. Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:37, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
• Thanks. I won't be available either. Can we copy and paste the results into Wikipedia? Maybe at Wikipedia:Education noticeboard/Oct 2013 office hour? Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 16:58, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

We will be posting the archive here. JMathewson (WMF) (talk) 18:02, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Query on meta about the WEF

Here. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 17:41, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Need Instructor permissions added to faculty account

Please add Bruceselleck as an Instructor to Education Program:Colgate University/ Geology 302 - Sedimentation and Stratigraphy (Fall 2013) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skunze (talk • contribs) 17:44, 30 October 2013 (UTC)