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Steven Emerson - Part 3

Steven Emerson (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Emerson has been criticized for some of his views, characterizing Emmerson as a discredited terrorism expert and an Islamophobe in The Cambridge Companion to American Islam, while Carl Enrst, the Kenan Distinguished Professor of Islamic studies at the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, described him as a prominent producer of Islamophobic discourse.

References

ChrisGualtieri is of the opinion that the material above is a violation of BLP, and claims that WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE applies here based on his argument that The claim is highly contentious, purely opinion, lacking veracity, decidedly non-neutral. I argue that this is not the case, and the opinions are significant enough to warrant inclusion, and that opinions need not to be neutral to be significant for inclusion: NPOV requires us to include such opinions.

This has been discussed extensively already at BLP/N:

• Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive215#Steven_Emerson
• Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive216#Steven_Emerson_part_2

While I appreciate the concern about "getting it right" in BLPs, I object the use of the BLP policy as a bludgeon used to exclude criticism from BLPs, when the criticism is supported by good quality sources, as this will violate NPOV - Cwobeel (talk) 16:14, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

There is absolutely no reason to repeatedly insert accusations of bigotry sourced to persons connected to an organization in protracted disputes with Steven Emerson. This is a highly contentious opinion sourced to less than a sentence which basically states "Islamophobe Steven Emerson" from a Google string search. Swap "Islamophobic" with "Anti-semite" or "racist" and you have the same BLP issue. Verifiability and veracity - not passing petty insults. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:22, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

It's entirely verifiable that Emerson has been criticised for some of his views, and the criticism has extended to the view that he has produced Islamophobic discourse. You appear not to like it, but it meets our policies quite readily. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:44, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

His views can be criticized but you do not go about calling someone a bigot on their biography without any merit and sourced to the personal enemies of the subject. This is why "misinformation expert" is fine, but not a bigot. You seem to be unable to reconcile the differences. Swap "Islamophobic" with "Anti-semite" - is it still appropriate? No. We do not go labeling or accusing people of being bigots when there is no evidence they are bigots. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:54, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Let's clarify something once and for all: Wikipedia (which I assume is what you mean when you use "we" above) is not calling anyone a bigot. What we are doing is reporting on criticism of Emerson as described in reliable sources. That is a big difference and a crucial distinction in this discussion. - Cwobeel (talk) 16:58, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

You (CG) want "evidence", as if it had to be a fact. But haven't you also argued that being a "bigot" can only be a matter of someone's opinion? You can't have it both ways. What matters is whether it's a characterisation that is supported by reliable sources. There's no question that the sources meet WP:RS. (And no, it wouldn't be different if it was a characterisation of someone as an anti-Semite.) Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:59, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

The text shown above is a fine example of a BLP-compliant, WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV-compliant summary of what prominent views are held about Emerson. Many more sources agree with the evaluation, so the above text is arguably too weak, suggesting that only these two sources think Emerson is an Islamophobe. Binksternet (talk) 17:30, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

There are additional sources that can be used to expand the sentence to address your concern, and even Emerson himself refers to the Islamophobe criticism leveled against him, rebutting that "[...] any criticism of Islam means you are an Islamophobe." [1]

References

- Cwobeel (talk) 17:58, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Seeing as there are 3 conversation about this subject now, if the content being discussed at the prior 2 is the same as here, I suggest WP:CLOSE closing procedures be used after this one concludes. Let all 3 be collectively reviewed and a consensus be determined based on them, Lest we open a 4th one here in a few more weeks.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 20:41, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment I actually agree with Serialjoepsycho. Prior comments supported WP:BLP policy, and considered the addition in the lede to be noncompliant with NPOV: [2] and [3]. Also, WP is not a tabloid that needs to be updated each time a biased source says something derogatory about the subject. Emerson's gaffe was actually included in a section of its own in the body of the article. How many BLP-N discussions must we undergo considering this is the 3rd, and beginning to look like WP:FORUMSHOPPING. Atsme☯^Consult 21:33, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
    • It doesn't look like forum shopping at all Atsme. What's clear from viewing some of the discussion elsewhere, some of you have interpreted a different consensus. So let who ever add what ever new, no one continue to repeat the same old, and then go seek an ADMIN Closure. They will determine the consensus based on what has been said.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 21:55, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
      • Sounds like a plan to me, Serialjoepsycho. Atsme☯^Consult 02:27, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
      • Note that this discussion is unrelated to the article's lede at this time. The dispute is about the validity of this material for it to be included in the article. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:14, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
        • Related? Unrelated? When your done go seek an official close is the relevant part of the above. If the other discussions about Steven Emerson are related point it out to the closer so they can take those views into account. If they aren't but since there seems to be some issue related to them seek to have them officially closed as well.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 06:59, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

This is an expanded version, addressing concerns expressed by Binksternet, as well as including Emerson's attempt at rebuttal in a Fox News oped, for balance. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:31, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Emerson has been criticized for some of his views, characterizing him as a discredited terrorism expert and an Islamophobe in The Cambridge Companion to American Islam, while Carl Enrst, the Kenan Distinguished Professor of Islamic studies at the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, described him as a prominent producer of Islamophobic discourse. Emerson responded to these and similar characterizations in an op-ed for Fox News, stating that criticism of Islam labeled as Islamphophia, and the labeling of "Islamic terrorism" as a racist generalization of Muslims, is "one of the biggest and most dangerous national security frauds of the past 30 years."

References

Yes... I like the phrasing "responded to these and similar characterizations" as it gives the reader the correct sense that Emerson has a greater level of criticism than just one uninvolved scholarly book and one involved but respected scholar. Binksternet (talk) 05:29, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm not really seeing much of an issue with this honestly, but I would like to view some some further comments, and well really get the meat and potatoes of the Issue that Chris has with this. Has this particularly already been discussed?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 07:05, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

It has been discussed extensively (follow the other discussions here at BLP/N, liked above). The issue ChrisGualtiery has with it, is summarized in his comment to my talk page [4] The claim is highly contentious, purely opinion, lacking veracity, decidedly non-neutral and sourced to nothing more than half a sentence quip. There is no place for unsupported accusations of bigotry. - Cwobeel (talk) 14:15, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Honestly that diff provides no context. The only bit of discussion I've actually looked at specifically was related o the lead and you have expressly stated that this material here relates in no way to the lead. There are probably a few things change, but in principal I don't not see an issue with mentioning these views if by prominent individuals. I do find myself questioning who in context to, "Emerson has been criticized for some of his views, characterizing him as a discredited terrorism expert and an Islamophobe in The Cambridge Companion to American Islam" because it doesn't seem Enrst is the person behind this point of view. It actually seems that we are attributing this opinion to Cambridge University thru their press. Probably not the best Idea. I wonder if the views can be attributed to the editors of it or specifically to someone the editors interviewed while writing the book. But really I'd like to hear I'd like to hear more from others to really get a view of this dispute to get a little more context.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 19:55, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

The issue is that bigotry and/or hate speech doesn't belong in the lead. It is not the prevailing view, rather it is a biased minority view and should not be given WP:UNDUE. I'm not convinced that it improves the article and is actually reminiscent of tabloid journalism. The public's perception of how proponents of Islam feel about Emerson is obvious considering the COI and/or bias toward him and his line of work. Also, several important comments are missing from this discussion as a result of separating it into 3 parts. Where are the opposing views, including what ChrisGualtieri and others stated in Parts 1 & 2? Atsme☯^Consult 19:17, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I'd absolutely agree that it would be inadvisable to put that in the lead like that at this time, but above Cwobeel has specifically stated that this conversation doesn't relate to the lead at this moment. As for the other parts, that is why I suggested that an official close be sought and related discussion all be closed as one. If there are any points contextually that you feel would help here please provide diffs and link them. Please though attempt to be brief.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 20:01, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

If the discussion is not about inclusion in the lead, then most certainly include it in the body of the article. I have no problem with that at all. Atsme☯^Consult 20:25, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't think it is appropriate to wait for an admin to close this discussion "officially". Admins are not here to be arbitrators for content disputes (I don't see any mention of an admin role in WP:DR besides conduct disputes, neither I see that in WP:ADMIN). We should be able to handle the close by ourselves with the kind assistance of uninvolved editors. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:07, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't think it would be appropriate to do anything but follow the procedure at WP:CLOSE. Because you have already been unable to close yourself. I recommend a admin closure just to avoid any unneeded drama in relation to a non-admin closure. It can be a non-admin closure by an uninvolved editor that is prepared to discuss and justify their closing rationale if asked. But regardless it does need to be formally closed and that is the whole point. And I know the perfect place to seek an uninvolved party to assist in the closure, WP:ANRFC.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 12:57, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I disagree. ANRFC is for cases in which there is no clear consensus. And as far as I can see from this discussion, there is consensus for inclusion, as consensus does not imply unanimity. So, in this case we don't need admin help. - Cwobeel (talk) 18:03, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Oklahoma City bombing

The Emerson biography should say that Emerson screwed up in his guess of who bombed the federal building in Oklahoma City. Why is that not in the biography? Many authors bring it up when they mention Emerson.[5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15] Even Emerson acknowledges his mistake as a personal "albatross".[16] Apparently, Atsme doesn't think it worthy of the biography, which is astonishing. It's a prominent part of his career which everybody including Emerson agrees upon. Binksternet (talk) 22:05, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

It wasn't just "his guess" - that should be clear because local police and the FBI also specifically considered Islamic terrorism. Reports surfaced almost immediately following and Emerson was one who agreed it had the hallmark. He made the statement, but he isn't the origin of the claim. The gaff itself has been used against Emerson and it is appropriate to include it - as well as the context surrounding it. Though in the big scheme of things - its sorta lame as "the biggest error" they refer to for him, but it is what it is. Political drama is like toilet writings for me - but I disagree with Atsme only because it is too prevalent to omit. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:22, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

This should have never been removed. This should be put back in as neutrally as possible.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 22:22, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes it should have, and the reason follows. The misleading comment Binksternet made about me is not unlike the misleading comment he wants included in the Emerson BLP...both are misleading and factually incorrect. Per my edit summary: removed poorly written paragraph stating that Emerson was "labeled an Islamophobe" based on incorrectly stated, unverifiable opinion. Emerson never mentioned Muslims. BLP violation) Binks, I'm curious - you removed an entire section I included in IPT (which is inextricably linked to Emerson and mirrors much of the same info) with the following summary: (→‎Boston Marathon Bombing: delete section... this issue is of very little importance in the case. The videos posted by the two bombers were little seen. The IPT did nothing substantial here.) [17]. And now you think a 20 year old interview on CBS wherein he only suggested that the bombing had a Middle Eastern trait is important? I think the Boston bombing is far more important because (1) it's recent, and (2) Emerson was doing his job which is what we're supposed to write about. Now what could be the difference between the two that makes you think a 20 year old brief interview is so almighty important...let's see...could it be that with the Ok City bombing Emerson suggested a ME trait when it was actually homegrown terrorism, and with the Boston bombing it was Islamic terrorism and Emerson was correct? Interesting angle on NPOV. Atsme☯^Consult 23:20, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I understand your point, but that is not what we do in WP. We don't bring our own opinions, rather, we report what reliable sources say. Adding your own commentary to somehow dismiss or diminish the RSs provided, as you have done (see Talk:Steven_Emerson#SYNTH), is a violation of WP:SYNTH. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:24, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

No, I did not bring my opinion in. I provided an inline citation for my source, and the source said precisely what I stated in the article (no copyvio) which is actually what we do on WP. The SYNTH and POV is what was in the passage I modified to be policy compliant. Do I need to include that whole ball of yarn here with inline text attribution for each phrase? I hope not. Atsme☯^Consult 01:39, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Cwobeel doesn't understand the point you make Atsme. This is clear because his use of "reliable source" here translates to - the biased non-neutral assessment by a political think-tank which Emerson has been in conflict with for decade and that it uses a quote fragment and a lack of context to attack Emerson personally. I mean sure... the Wall Street Journal to the New York Post were going on about the Middle East trait, live coverage well-before Emerson was already hard pounding the WTC and Islamic terrorism angle. CNN identified four innocent Arab Americans in connection with the bombing.... Emerson also criticized CNN for this act... yet it is "Emerson the Islamophobe"? American Journalism Review is better source than Emerson's personal enemies. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 01:51, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Cwobeel blocked

So Cwobeel was just blocked for violating WP:NEWBLPBAN, which is a method I had never seen. ChrisGualtieri filed a case against Cwobeel at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Cwobeel, then HJ Mitchell read the case and blocked Cwobeel. The immediate complaint was that Cwobeel restored disputed text to the Emerson biography during this discussion here at BLPN, the text in question described as a BLP violation by ChrisGualierie and Atsme. My problem with the Arb case and the block stems from the persistent mischaracterization of the text as being a violation of BLP. The sources are scholarly ones, the highest quality sources we have. Yes, they characterize Steven Emerson and Daniel Pipes as being the two most prominent voices of Islamophobia in the US. It doesn't particularly matter whether Emerson is happy with this assessment or not; the description accurately represents the opinion of these (and some other) scholars.

If we are to institute a rule disallowing any re-posting of BLPN disputed material (no matter how highly sourced the text or how misrepresented the complaint) then we will open ourselves up to those who would game the system: any I-don't-like-it text can be perpetually discussed at BLPN to keep it from being re-posted at a biography. That's a change I would not like to see. Binksternet (talk) 16:28, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Half a sentence quips from parties involved in a dispute with Emerson is not "scholarly" by any means - it is name calling. The real issue is repeatedly edit warring to reinsert the material which is at BLPN when there is no consensus to include the material is the problem. And you have done this yourself. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:40, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Your original research does not take the place of reliable sources, and Arbcom can not (nor do I believe they intended to) set a higher standard for BLPs than established by the community. What I see is editors tendentiously pushing their own POV by using BLP as club to keep legitimate criticism out of articles in violation WP:NPOV. I think this discussion needs to happen at ANI.- MrX 17:14, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

The issue was restoring content removed under BLP, acknowledged by Cwobeel to be valid and then restored during the dispute. Citing Gale was me and the American Journalism Review was Atsme's source - and the information is not "original research". OR pertains to article content, not highlighting that Cwobeel's source was non-neutral, cherry-picked and unsupported name-calling. By this logic, it would be fine to include racist and bigoted "scholarly criticism" on Obama's page. Sorry bud, but BLP needs to have high standards. I've seen this same stuff directed at Al Sharpton calling him every vile nasty epithet you can think of, but yet we do not include such filth either. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:30, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

WP:BLP requires good sources, not neutral sources. Cwobeel added well-sourced content here based on 3:1 support at BLP/N here. You ignored that consensus and reverted Cwobeel's edit here claiming "Remove per BLP Policy". BLP Policy requires good sourcing, the absence of which you have flatly failed to demonstrate. I've seen you do this repeatedly on this and other articles such as Shooting of Michael Brown. I would like to know why you haven't been sanctioned.- MrX 18:14, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• I'd have thought it would be common sense for any established editor to know that you don't restore content removed on BLP grounds until and unless the discussion concludes in your favour, much less an editor who has previously been blocked for BLP violations. I have no comment on the content; whether or not it should be in the article and if so in what form is a matter for discussion on this board to resolve. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:33, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • @HJ Mitchell: I don't think it's going to be possible to address this one properly without evaluating the content. The question is whether there are reasonable grounds for disputing it on a BLP basis. ChrisGualtieri and Atsme think so, and they've been arguing about it for months. Multiple editors coming to it "cold", however, have reached a different conclusion and have added/restored the material (sometimes in revised form). In that context, "content removed on BLP grounds" means something different, in contrast to a situation where someone sees a BLP violation and removes it the first time. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:56, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Evaluating the content is absolutely critical to understanding whether this was or was not a BLP concern. Otherwise any editor could block any negative text at all from a BLP, just by complaining about it here at BLPN. Binksternet (talk) 18:13, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Harry, at least look at the fact the Cwobeel's edit had 3:1 support and was well-sourced. There is a fundamental problem when a single editor can stonewall by simply crying BLP without showing that the cited sources fail our reliable source guidelines or that the content is not supported by the sources. Please see Consensus-building pitfalls and errors.- MrX 18:29, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

So @Atsme: is a non-person? The content evaluate is separate, but the offending material should not be restored by the BLPN filing party while the dispute is ongoing at BLPN. You made a false dichromy argument because no one is saying negative material is a problem. It is name-calling that is the issue here, and name-calling is not encyclopedic or productive and its not in the Gale biography. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:49, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Your issue seems to be with the fact that Emerson as been characterized as an Islamaphobe or a prominent producer of Islamophobic discourse, a fact which he acknowledges. Several editors clearly disagree with you that it's not encyclopedic.- MrX 19:19, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Adding contentious material to a BLP that is verifiable but false or that is unsupported by the cited RS is quite simply noncompliant with NPOV. Sources that mirror each others' bigotry may be RS for a particular claim, but in this case, one of the sources included only a parenthetical reference to Emerson in an unrelated chapter in a book containing fewer than three sentences about the guy. Another source did not even include what was actually stated in the BLP. Since NPOV is one of the 3 core content policies of WP:BLP, and the contentious material is clearly noncompliant with NPOV, how is that not a BLP violation? Furthermore, Binksternet made 4 reverts in less than 24 hours: 21:22, March 6, 2015 21:46, March 6, 2015‎ 08:29, March 7, 2015‎ 09:14, March 7, 2015‎ which not only violates 3RR, it appears to have violated BLP DS. Atsme☯^Consult 18:43, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

You appear not to understand how WP:3RR works. Try to understand the notion of consecutive edits. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:57, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Verifiability is a foundational policy, and sources are how we evaluate "truth". If you want to challenge content as being unsourced, then do so with diffs and a link to the source. Binksternet did not violate 3RR; concurrent edits don't count as reverts.- MrX 19:02, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Refer to the evaluation by HJ Mitchell above because Binksternet reverted the same material that caused Cwobeel to be blocked. Edit warring is edit warring and when it involves contentious material about a BLP that is not properly sourced, it requires immediate attention. The revert happened so quickly it became a job in itself just to keep up. I don't understand why the same action that applied to Cwobeel should not apply to Binksternet per BLP DS. There are substantive grounds for removal of that contentious material. Furthermore, closure requires a close review based on the substantive argument, not a vote to see how many editors agree despite BLP policy. Atsme☯^Consult 22:16, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Several editors restoring content is one of the signals of consensus. If only one editor supported this content and reverted without discussion, they should be sanctioned for edit warring. What instead seems to be happening is filibustering, original research, strained interpretations of policy and appeals to non-existent policies. Also, BLP/N discussions do not require formal closure.

Now a specific question for you: What exactly in the disputed content do you claim is not properly sourced? - MrX 22:49, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

For the sake of brevity I've included a classic example of the NPOV issue at Emerson:

• [18]<--factually accurate information in a published transcript (pg 11) of the actual 1995 CBS interview with Emerson as indicated by an academic source. Another source I was going to cite (had I not been disrupted from editing) is a NY Times article: [19]
• [20]<--example of the misinformation Binksternet insisted on keeping, and in doing so prevented me from completing the last segment of the paragraph. The reverted passage reflects an unsubstantiated bigoted opinion (and biased slur) that was expressed parenthetically (in passing mention). COI - several authors of the cited book are paid proponents and/or teachers of Islamic studies at various universities. The passing mention of Emerson in the book was clearly incidental. The source demonstrates how Emerson's statement was taken out of context: [21] Atsme☯^Consult 01:00, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

It's heartening that you would try to figure out whether the scholars are correct or not in their negative assessment of Emerson, but frankly that is not our concern, and it smacks of original research. The scholars looked at Emerson's contribution to the issue and they determined that Emerson was expressing Islamophobic ideas. Let's not try to second-guess these scholars who we accept as experts in their fields. Binksternet (talk) 02:03, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Except WP:OR - does not apply to talk pages so pointing out that the quote is incomplete and inaccurate is acceptable. Wikipedia is not supposed to engage in conflicts and label people as bigots based on the quips of their political and ideological opponents. Not one case has been presented to show Emerson as an actual bigot. It is rhetoric and name-calling, all without merit. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:14, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

What is an "actual bigot"? Who is to judge what behavior deserves that label? Why, the reliable sources are to judge, and if we are concerned about BLP (we certainly are) then we must use the highest quality sources. Scholars are our highest sources. Let's not try and out-think the scholars in their areas of expertise. Binksternet (talk) 07:02, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Mmmm? ABC, CBS, and NBC which had FBI sources on the day of stating this connection. Oliver Revell (not Emerson) stated that it was most likely a Middle East terrorist which appeared in the Baltimore Sun. Plenty of figures made this connection, the Wall Street Journal even ran a story featuring it. Emerson's award winning documentary was released several months prior and apparently he wasn't a "Islamophobe" for predicting such an attack and of such a style. Your use of the word "Scholar" as some unimpeachable standard is pretty telling that you have no experience in such research... I am also very confident you have not watched the tapes and while I do not have access to the Hillmann & Carr collection (containing the tape of Emerson) I have found many instances of the "Middle Eastern" aspect including Emerson condemning the identification of four innocent Arabs by the media shortly thereafter. So much for "bigotry", but keep sticking to your non-neutral sources and claiming it to be the gospel - I take the New York Times, American Journal Review and the FBI over those sources. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:36, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

As soon as you publish your book about this issue, your opinion will be considered a reliable source on the matter of what the media was saying and how Emerson was viewed. Until then, a number of scholars have separately and collectively determined that Emerson espouses Islamophobic ideas. Binksternet (talk) 14:59, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

@Atsme: You answered a different question than the one I asked. This section is about the material inserted by Cwobeel for which he was blocked for violating WP:BLP. So I ask again, what specific words, phrases or sentences in this edit do you assert is not properly sourced?- MrX 17:53, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Interested parties are invited to comment at the Arbitration request by Cwobeel to be unblocked. Binksternet (talk) 17:20, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Resolution attempt

Due to Binksternet's reinsertion and modification, it is not the same offending text that Cwobeel was edit warring. But we need to resolve this. Let's begin by finding some points of discussion to resolve the dispute. Let's break the section down:

Emerson has been criticized for espousing Islamophobic views...

Specifically, what "views" are Islamophobic? This requires clarification and none of the sources being used support a single example. Three different sources are saying he is an Islamophobe, but none provide any argument or example of said Islamophobia. I see verification that an accusation has been made, but this is an exceptional claim and requires exceptional sourcing. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:33, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

If the slightly different way I worded it is not a BLP violation, how is it that you insisted on Cwobeel getting blocked, when the solution was simply a bit of rewording? It seems to me that you could have suggested some rewording at the article's talk page and thereby saved the community's time along with their patience. Or you could have reworded it yourself instead of blanking good sources.[22][23][24][25][26] Not to mention striving to get an editor blocked for no good reason. Binksternet (talk) 06:43, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

I think there is a core misunderstanding here. Cwobeel edit warred over the content, took it here, edit warred it in, month long protection, added it again, took it here, added it again after acknowledging the "restore part of BLP" and doing it during the dispute which has been requested to have a formal close. So I took it to AE to stop this and also asked for 1RR on the page. You reinserted it, but you did it once and while I and Atsme disagree, edit warring is not productive and its not a top-tier BLP issue. I even asked Atsme to let it stay because we need to more forward. If I undo the material you reinserted and modified - I'd be continuing to stall the situation. You weren't even warned of the AC/DS, but this has got to stop and be resolved. I don't think anyone wants this dispute to continue for another month so can we focus on the issue with the content now? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 13:21, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Chris makes a good point. It shouldn't be enough to just report that some individual has called Emerson a name. If someone has, do they have reason for that position? Otherwise there would be undue weight it seems. -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 07:37, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

• This demonstrates it is both notable and due for this "terrorism expert's" biography. It goes into extensive explanation but obviously you are not going to just present one "side". So, you all should move on and get with exactly how you present it in the article. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:08, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

There is no issue with including the 1995 "gaffe" material and everyone agrees that it needs to be include. Despite WP:BLPSELFPUB objects as it is "self-serving" by one user - Emerson's statements and other sources about this need to be given. The issue here is name-calling, specifically labeling Emerson as a bigot without identifying what specific views of his are "Islamophobic" or "fomenting Islamophobia" as previously claims. Verification of the name-calling is WP:UNDUE without at least a single argument as to why Emerson is Islamophobic in the eyes of his critics. That's the core issue we have been trying to resolve for weeks. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:13, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

The sources do talk about why they say what they say. Perhaps not to your satisfaction but that is another matter entirely. "Islamaphobe" is not in the sources only an epithet, it is a critique of his expert approach, which the critics see as revealed by him. They may be right, they may be wrong but in discussing the biography of a terrorism expert, you have to discuss the "albatross" around his neck, which leads to the "islamaphobe" critique. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:38, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

So by the logic Obama it is acceptable to call a communist/radical/worst president in history because "critics state" and nothing more? You seem to think I am sympathetic to Emerson because I don't think allowing unexplained bigotry in retaliation for labeling their organization as being related to a terror organization - a fact backed by a federal judge's ruling in the case. By that logic you could call George Zimmerman a racist and a murderer because "critics say". ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:06, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

What? No. I don't think anything about you, except now I think you indulge in irrelevancies. I think the sources show there is a prominent critique of this terrorism expert. Your swerve to irrelevant Obama commentary notwithstanding, Emerson is not Obama, two very different biographies of two very different lives, which will have very different demands of subject matter. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:18, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

If it's acceptable in one BLP, it is acceptable in all BLPs. We cannot pick and choose whose BLP we allow contentious material to be included. Please be specific in your argument to keep a contentious statement because if it applies here, it is likely to apply elsewhere - it's referred to as establishing a "precedent". Atsme☯^Consult 20:36, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Incorrect, no one covers disparate lives the same -- only those who seek to indulge logical fallacies of a pretend parade of horribles would even attempt such reasoning. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:16, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

If you want to argue about Obama, start a section about Obama. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:38, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

This subsection title is Resolution attempt. Can we please stay on topic? Thank you. Atsme☯^Consult 20:59, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, of course. That's why we would do well not to discuss Obama. Agreed? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:14, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Chris correctly drew attention to an established precedent. [27] Attempts to dismiss the comparisons only serve to make it more relevant. Established policies are just that - established policies which means they apply across the board and are not subject to POV. If compliance with NPOV applies to one BLP, it applies to all BLPs. Atsme☯^Consult 22:24, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

No - there is no precedent, despite your logical fallacy -- we are dealing, here, with terrorism expert, Emerson, who has this sourcing. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:33, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

No, we are dealing with a BLP, and as such strict adherence to policy is required. Strict adherence to BLP policy includes the 3 core content policies, no exceptions. Any attempt to individualize BLP is not NPOV. Atsme☯^Consult 22:40, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

And multiple editors note that all policies are met, the critique is verifiable and due. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:45, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Please be definitive. What passages are you referring to as having met the requirements for NPOV, and how did you determine the requirements were met? Atsme☯^Consult 22:50, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Mr. X has a proposal he has asked you to comment upon already. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:01, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Mr. X asked a question that was already answered by ChrisGualtieri. I see no reason to keep repeating the same thing over and over again. This subsection is titled Resolution attempt, so if you have any suggestions for resolving the NPOV and RS issues, I'm interested. Atsme☯^Consult 00:30, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Well then you're done, here, if you have nothing left to say and others can just move on with the consensus version, which does not require unanimity. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:39, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Potential edits in the Barack Obama article or the George Zimmerman article have zero effect on this article, and divert us from determining if there are reliability issues with the sources, or if the sources have been misrepresented, or if they represent a fringe viewpoint. Atsme, you have made several appeals to policy, but have been a bit evasive when pressed for specific examples. You also seem to rely on ChrisGualtieri's argument which has now been refuted by three editors as being logically fallacious.- MrX 00:49, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Logically fallacious is an opinion, not a substantive argument to restore material that was removed for noncompliance with BLP policy. The burden to restore such material rests with the editor who wants it restored, not with the editor who removed it. Atsme☯^Consult 02:59, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

That comment doesn't make sense. I was refuting ChrisGualtieri's argument because it was based on something bad that could happen to another, unrelated article. It's not logical and it's not grounded in policy. "Non-compliance with BLP" implies misrepresentation of sources, or unreliable sources, yet you have not substantiated this alleged "non-compliance" with anything more than generalizations about policy. Once again, what specifically violates WP:BLP and why? If you can't or won't answer that question, which I have now asked three times, then would you at least refrain from claiming that there is a BLP policy violation in the disputed content?- MrX 03:23, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

MrX - I'm sorry you could not comprehend the example and importance of NPOV I was highlighting. The name-calling is undue and is not conducive to a disinterested biography on the subject. I was comparing the fact that other biographies for which no end of such "criticism" exists - are kept clean of it because of NPOV and BLP. Would calling Emerson a bigot survive at a Featured Article Review? No, because it is name-calling. I gave a simple request - provide at least one example of an "Islamophobic view" expressed by Emerson so that it can be properly attributed. It only takes one example to make me agree that such a view can be stated, and so far no example has been given. So far there is none so I think that without clarification - the name-calling must be removed. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:55, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

If you find "bigot" in the Emerson article, I'd support it being removed. But I don't see it there... Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:33, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

The request "an "Islamophobic view" expressed by Emerson so that it can be properly attributed" makes no sense. Wikipedians attribute sources, Wikipedians don't attribute anything to Emerson (other than when needed, his own words), Wikipedia has no view with respect to Emerson. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:53, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

*Nomoskedasticity are you unaware that Islamophobia is a bigotry based on religion? This is like saying someone is the key proponent of antisemitic discourse. That is what these non-neutral and minority sources claim. Alanscottwalker, you don't understand the problem I am referring to - perhaps someone else can explain my points better to you, but for the sake of it - swap "Islamophobia" with racist. Emerson has been criticized for espousing racist views.... Is that acceptable without stating at least one example of a "racist view"? That is why I am asking for that one view before I change my position. I am not asking for much - if these sources are as high-quality it should be easy to make an example that is not WP:SYNTH. Namely something like "Emerson has been accused of Islamophobia for stating...." you fill in the blank. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:19, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

I have no problem with the idea that Emerson has espoused racist views, extrapolated from the fact that a number of scholars have observed that he has espoused Islamophibic views. Accusations of racism can and should be discussed in a biography when they are appropriate, for instance at the David Duke article. Emerson and Islamophobia are connected by enough high-quality sources that we would be remiss not to mention them. Binksternet (talk) 15:10, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

@ChrisGualtieri: I don't think I have comprehension problem. NPOV (a separate policy from BLP) is served by inclusion of significant points of view in proportion to their coverage in sources. AFAIK, no one here has called Emerson a bigot. This has been repeatedly pointed out to you, yet you keep bringing it up. I am on record as preferring not to label Emerson an Islamophobe, but it is necessary to mention that Emerson has been criticized for fomenting Islamophobia. In addition to the sources we already have, there are these:

"There is a growing cottage industry of Western commentators and politicians who thrive on bashing Islam. The War on Terror has provided a substantial level of cover for their views.39 While initially terror experts such as Daniel Pipes, Steven Emerson, and Robert Spencer led the anti-Islam charge, it has spread widely."
— Fawaz A. Gerges, The Rise and Fall of Al-Qaeda (New York: Oxford University Press, 2011), 21, https://www.questia.com/read/121489747.

"Yet following September 11, 2001, there was a surge of Islamophobia in the West, which portrayed all things Islamic, and in particular Islamic banks, in the worst possible light.88 The outrage provoked by the terrorist attacks gave credence to anti-Islamic views, which moved quite close to mainstream and policy-making circles. Thus, journalist Steven Emerson, whose primary claim to fame until then had been his assertion that the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing “could only have been perpetrated by Middle Eastern terrorists,” said that the days following September 11, “he has fielded 1,000 calls, many from news organizations,”89 thus becoming one of the most ubiquitous “terrorist experts.”"
— Ibrahim Warde, Islamic Finance in the Global Economy, 2nd ed. (Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press, 2010), 109, https://www.questia.com/read/121094053.

"“This small network of people is driving the national and global debates that have real consequences on the public dialogue and on American Muslims,” the report said. “Due in part to the relentless efforts of this small group of individuals and organizations, Islam is now the most negatively viewed religion in America.” ¶ The five key misinformation experts identified by the report: Frank Gaffney at the Center for Security Policy (see also here); David Yerushalmi at the Society of Americans for National Existence (see also here); Daniel Pipes at the Middle East Forum; Robert Spencer of Jihad Watch and Stop Islamization of America (see also here), and Steven Emerson of the Investigative Project on Terrorism." "
— Southern Poverty Law Center

To answer you specific demand "provide at least one example of an "Islamophobic view" expressed by Emerson" how about this:

" "In Britain, it’s not just no-go zones," Emerson said. "There are actual cities like Birmingham that are totally Muslim, where non-Muslims just simply don’t go in. And parts of London, there are actually Muslim religious police that actually beat and actually wound seriously anyone who doesn't dress according to Muslim, religious Muslim attire." "
— Steven Emerson on Saturday, January 10th, 2015 in an interview on Fox News

"“This is the way things are done with Saudi Arabia. You don’t arrest their citizens, you deport them because they don’t want them to be embarrassed and that’s the way we appease them.”"
— Steve Emerson

I hope this helps.- MrX 15:23, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

ChrisGualtieri might now be tempted to argue that these views do not actually display Islamophobia. I hope we can avoid that sort of WP:OR. What matters is whether significant sources meeting WP:RS perceive Islamophobia in these and/or other statements by Emerson. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 15:39, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

No... MrX has fulfilled my requirement, while they are not as strong I would have preferred he has certainly met my requirement. He certainly made that Birmingham gaffe - which was quickly corrected, but it still was a dumb thing to say. The 1995 one is more of a matter of context, but this recent one is definitely a major error for which no real excuse can be made. Nomo, you might want to look into WP:OR because it does not apply to talk pages or evaluating sources, it applies to content. Now... we need a way in which to resolve the accusations by using the example - I believe some occurred in direct connection to the Birmingham comments. That way we also remove the dramatic claim that Emerson is "clearly a complete idiot" from Cameron, who has made a serious mistake of this nature as well. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:21, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, that's great -- except that you've been aware of that example for many weeks now, so one naturally wonders what all the fuss has been about, over dozens of posts by you about the topic.... Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:28, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

.... I am certain you do not understand my argument because of that comment. I could also do less without the bad-faith accusations, but the battleground atmosphere is not pleasant. Is there a direct non-SYNTH case of this or not? MrX has an example, but you can't use OR to claim a connection to something published prior to the gaffe - which those cases were. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:03, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Ok so if that is going to be added, we can add the following: [28] and [29] Atsme☯^Consult 17:35, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

ChrisGualtieri, I'm not interested in using WP:OR for adding anything to the article; I thought I had made that clear. Atsme, the same response is needed for you -- and it's especially appalling that you want to use Breitbart.com as a source in this context. Yeech... Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:40, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

- Since Xenophrenic has resolved the issue, I'm announcing that these changes more than resolves the issue and is NPOV in my eyes. I don't support Breitbart - but that gaffe thing is different from the issue and beyond this BLPN notice. Atsme - do you have any issues with Xenophrenic's changes - or are we all in agreement that the now-current wording is acceptable? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:57, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Chris, if you're referring to the changes already implemented by Xenophrenic at Emerson, I am Ok with them. I will address the plurality issue about the CBS interview(s) on the TP. Atsme☯^Consult 21:07, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Xenophrenic changes have addressed Chris' issues. His changes have mostly, if not completely, removed Atsme's Synth (improper editorializing, Undue weight, over all BLP violations, or what ever anyone wants to call this [30]). It would probably be a good time to ask the other BLPN contributors here if there are any issues of note brought up here that aren't addressed.If not we can just put this baby to bed.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 22:26, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

• If an Admin is following this discussion, I ask that you please take some form of remedial action for the unwarranted PAs against me by Serialjoepsycho (^^see his comment above this one). His false allegations of my editing being overall BLP violations, SYNTH, UNDUE, editorializing, etc. are unwarranted, but this isn't the first time he has done so. A comparison of the two diffs will confirm my position: My edit is here: Revision as of 16:37, March 6, 2015. Xenophrenic's edit is here: Revision as of 12:40, March 9, 2015 In fact, I am still researching one of the sentences he attributed to Emerson to confirm it is factually accurate. Atsme☯^Consult 03:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

• That is not a personal attack. Simply pointing out the truth, is not a personal attack. Synth pretty much sums it up, someone else called in improper editorializing on the Steven Emerson page. Parts of it were undue. You could even point out the fluff. Overall it was a BLP violation. -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 04:12, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

• There is no personal attack Atsme. Also, I've had several person attacks lobbed at me, it is the tensions. De-escalate the situation and don't get upset about anything less than unfettered name calling. Now... I'd give it another 12 hours for objections to be raised and then I suggest for a formal admin close to finalize it. Since me and Atsme were "the opposition" in a sense and we agree on the material, I doubt any objection will be raised. I prefer a formal close despite a clear consensus - I don't want a "part 4". ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:31, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Just check back in 4 days and take it to ANRFC if someone else hasn't. That will be plenty of time to respond and one day before it archives.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 06:24, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

• I wonder how many times it is actually necessary to say that Tim McVeigh was behind the Oklahoma city bombing. Probably worth scrubbing the first mention of it. It's not very well written and detracts from the tone. Further thru it mentions, "Emerson has been referred to as an "Islamophobe"" but ot really doesn't mention by whom. This sourced to the 'Cambridge companion to American Islam'. If it's worth mentioning it would be worth mentioning who's views these are. This does seem to be opinion based and as such I do feel WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV would apply. Leaving these critics unnamed seems to benefit the following sentence where Emerson criticizes unnamed critics. This also detracts from the tone, though less than before.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 08:45, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

• Sources attributed. Still problematic though, In 1995 CBS interviews, prior to any knowledge the bombing of the Oklahoma City Federal Building was perpetrated by Timothy McVeigh, Emerson said "Oklahoma City, I can tell you, is probably considered one of the largest centers of Islamic radical activity outside the Middle East", and that the bombing "was done with the intent to inflict as many casualties as possible. This negatively effects the tone of the article. Originally added to the article it stood as fluff that seemed to defend Emerson, now it seems as if it was written to make him look incompetent. Neither of which seem to carry a dispassionate tone. Emerson's actions already make him look incompetent, he doesn't need our assistance. This part is unnecessary as the same paragraph later says, In the introduction of the book, The Cambridge Companion to American Islam, Juliane Hammer and Omid Safi referred to Emerson as an "Islamophobe" and "the discredited 'terrorism expert' who falsely identified Muslims as being behind the Oklahoma City bombing committed by Timothy McVeigh".-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 11:15, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Yep, still problematic... but I don't want to be attacked for "stonewalling" and such. If Sloan stated the connection - completely independently of Emerson - and Sloan is an actual terrorist expert instead of a new person in the field (which Emerson was at the time) then there is very little wrong with acknowledging what the prevailing, albeit wrong view was. The way it reads is that Emerson was the source of the material - when it was leaks in the FBI and law enforcement, three different news networks and other experts. There is hours and hours of TV coverage on this stuff on April 19-20. To criticize Emerson and act as if he was alone responsible for the "fomenting Islamophobia" is dishonest. The stark difference in reality is the reason why I was strongly opposed to the inclusion of the accusations in the first place - they lacked substance and context. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:17, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Russell Tovey's "effeminate" comments

His comments are publicized, but are they worth being added to the article? --George Ho (talk) 11:00, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

No. They are an off the cuff comment, over blown by the tabloids. Next week they will be forgotten. --Fæ (talk) 11:12, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

They are not overblown off the cuff comments Fae, they actually have offended segments of the LGBT community and Tovey has a history of denigrating what he considers "flamboyant and camp". It's well known. --5.69.175.246 (talk) 14:07, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Tovey is a gay man prides himself on being "straight acting" and passing for a straight man. His comments clearly reflect this. It's also clear he is unconscious of why he makes such 'off the cuff' remarks in the first place, hence why they were highly publicized. They were harmful to those 'really effeminate' men within the LGBT community who consider him a role model and do not conform to the heteronormative standards of behaviour he speaks of and has spoken of in the past. For you to undermine the comments as 'overblown' is dismissive of their potential impact which is why I think you should consider keeping these comments in the article itself. --5.69.175.246 (talk) 14:31, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

There are some unreliable and/or primary sources there, lack of NPOV and a lot of weight. "came under fire on social media" is precisely the kind of thing we want to avoid. However, if there was reaction from reliable sources or notable people and a consequence of some sort, and all that can be sourced to stuff other than twitter, then perhaps it merits a shorter paragraph. Right now it looks like it was worded by an angry LGBT advocate, which is not ideal for a BLP. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 17:17, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

By the way, I have taken time to read the original interview (where the comment hardly is noticeable) and a few of the later inflammatory pieces in other tabloids. I have also gone to Tovey's twitter stream and read his immediate reactions. Though a few people might be wound up by a passing comment made during a long interview, I am still of the opinion that this is over-inflated as it does not properly illustrate Tovey's opinions on being a gay figure (as shown by his responses). I find no systematic evidence that Tovey "has a history" of denigrating flamboyant gay people; this may be confusing his fictional roles and his aims as an actor to take more edgy material with his personal world-view. As a co-founder of Wikimedia LGBT, I am sensitive to the issues but I think we should retain a focus on ensuring LGBT related articles are as a good quality as possible. This means avoiding compiling dubious "controversy" sections which have no long term encyclopaedic merit.

If anyone is looking for newspaper sources and wishes to research Tovey's BLP further, I do have access to LexisNexis and can pass on material to help with improving the article if you have specific areas to focus on. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 12:32, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Not a BLP issue. plenty of mostly reliable sources reporting it. If its worth being in the article discuss it on the talk page. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:36, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Sherry Lansing

The Bio on Sherry Lansing claims she was the first Female Studio head. I believe that Lucille Ball was the First, after buying out Desi Arnez to become the presedent of desilu. Thank You Joseph C — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.119.246.162 (talk) 13:14, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Desilu was a television studio rather than a movie studio.Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:59, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Meredith Viera

Insults Meredith when talking about the Meredith Viera show, referring to her as a racist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:B843:4CE0:CD34:EE6A:91B1:E020 (talk) 08:55, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Can you provide a link or diff? I see no evidence that the article has ever included such a claim. RolandR (talk) 11:26, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

The OP is apparently referring to this edit, which you reverted. Dwpaul ^Talk 15:35, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

That was just a routine reversion of mindless vandalism. I didn't see any reference to racism. RolandR (talk) 16:40, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

An edit can be both vandalism and racist, RolandR. This one was. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:14, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Racist? Unless you are inside the editor's head, I don't think that's a fair assesment. Maybe the intent was there, but the edit in question was so incoherent it's best not to make such an accusation in the first place. The bar for making such claims against fellow editors appears to be about an inch high nowadays.Two kinds of pork^Makin'_Bacon 03:35, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I characterized the edit, not the editor. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 21:17, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Jordis Unga

Hello! I've been dealing with a BLP sourcing issue on Jordis Unga, but before I violate the 3RR I decided to bring it here. It deals with this edit (and ones following it) where I have removed content from the page and an IP (98.193.95.34) has reverted my changes, I revert back, and then I reverted the revert, and the IP reverted back. That's where we stand at the time of this post. The controversy is about the subject of the article allegedly not carrying out her duties to her campaign on kickstarter, but the citation is the comment on the kickstarter campaign, which only contains comments made by donors with no official statements of explanations whatsoever. I believe this is a clear violation of BLP policy, being that it's controversial material with what appears to be a very unreliable and extremely biased source. I left this message at the user's talk page, but it was promptly removed by the IP. Please advise. Kharkiv07 (talk) 16:10, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Correct, Kickstarter comments are not reliable sources for a BLP. I will add this to my watchlist.- MrX 18:13, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Justin Harris AR. Legislator

To whom it may concern,

This story has recently hit some of the news sources throughout our country not as many as I would have hoped. I have noticed as of today that a team or at least a few have been scrubbing his Wiki page. I have done so with my own eyes. Why this is important is that the facts are that he is still making laws, he still has a school all of which pertain to children. He is now hiding the fact that he is more culpable than what it was showing and that the crime was more than just diddling. It also does not include the fact that he has been using all but 6% of taxpayers money to fund his Christian school. This is very distressing that he can create his own picture en-light of what the news has worked so hard to get out there. I would ask that you look at Arkansas Times, Wonkette, Raw Story and Time. Thank you for your eyes, Anna Hoffmann104.229.10.241 (talk) 22:32, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Manohar Aich

Under "feats" is listed a squat of 300kg. This has no source and is almost definitely false - at 54kg the world record is 290kg. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.106.2.31 (talk) 00:20, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Andrulla Blanchette

Andrulla Blanchette (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) Persistent edits by a possible COI account, primarily removing sourced content for unsourced content they prefer. I've reported to AIV, but in the dearth of response this continues, and I've no desire to edit war. Help would be appreciated. 2602:302:D89:A9C9:84E6:720C:31CA:6D3 (talk) 03:09, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

• The user has since been blocked by Materialscientist. Thanks. 2602:302:D89:A9C9:84E6:720C:31CA:6D3 (talk) 03:29, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

That article is a mess. I've trimmed the area of contention down to the basic facts - that will suffice. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:00, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Brandon Davies

On Brandon Davies (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Ballin890 insists that Davies#650640817 650640726 should be removed from the article (note that this happened several times and you can look back through the history). He received several warnings, including a final warning and that was taken to AIV but referred back here. Ballin890 said in an edit summery that "Please keep that information out of Brandon Davies Wikipedia page. He has a family now and does not need to be remembered by a mistake he made when he was 19 years old. I understand it was in the media and still can b [edit summery cut off]", but when approached on his talk page he agreed to stop until it was settled, and at the time of this post hasn't gone back on that. Kharkiv07 (talk) 19:01, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

At this time you can also see his contributions, as they're all related to the matter at hand. Kharkiv07 (talk) 19:26, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

I reverted the first few deletions. The user never responded in the article talk page, his talk page, my talk page or even in an edit summary until on the verge of being blocked. I feel like the information should be in the article. It is brief and not overly sensational, it was heavily covered in the American press at the time that it happened - literally by all major national sports news outlets and many non-sport news outlets - see results for simple Google search for "Brandon Davies dismissal" here). We keep much, much worse transgressions committed by public figures so long as they are properly sourced (note to my British friends - top-level college sports are covered at the same level in the US as top-level professional leagues in most countries). Taking it out not only feels like censorship, but it doesn't answer the question as to why he missed half a season. In addition to violating the 3RR, this editor has also now deleted all of the warnings on his talk page related to this and seems to be a COI case as well. Rikster2 (talk) 21:30, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Menendez / TDC

The Daily Caller#Controversies needs attention from someone more familiar with BLP issues than I. There is sufficient RS coverage of TDC's involvement in this scandal about Bob Menendez that it warrants coverage in our TDC article. What I'm stuck on is how to do this while protecting Menendez's BLP rights. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:03, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

P.S. I'm having second on whether there should be any coverage of this in the TDC article at all. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:39, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Chip Coffey

Chip Coffey (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Content on this page may be legally considered libelous and appears to be posted solely for the purpose of defaming Chip Coffey. No rebuttal information has been posted on this page. 2601:0:AB80:1BF:C806:F517:7383:FC21 (talk) 23:40, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

For context, this IP has now been blocked for repeatedly blanking the article and tagging it {{db-attack}}. A quick read through the Criticism section appears to show that it is properly sourced documentation of criticism the subject has received. --Nick—^Contact/_Contribs 23:58, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Bob Hall (Texas politician)

Incredibly biased article. Reads like a glowing biography. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.246.61.190 (talk) 06:52, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

I've toned it down a bit, could probably benefit from more work.--ukexpat (talk) 13:11, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Do you have any specific complaints, IP Editor?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 14:29, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Munya Mataruse

this is not the place for a draft article, please see WP:AFC.--ukexpat (talk) 12:59, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Munya Mataruse is a Norton based musician born in Chegutu on the 22nd of January. Music Description: Afro Fusion , Shangara. He runs a Five piece band Kazevezeve( meaning the Whisper) Can perform solo performances or band performances Deputations are  : Munyaradzi Mataruse( Acoustic Guitar/ vocals), Alice Muringayi (backing vocals), Simbarashe Navaya (Bass Guitar), Watson Jnr Chidzomba (Drums), and Tari “G-Fingers” Mufari (Guitar) . He formed the band in 2005 by at Pakare Paye Arts Centre which is an arts organization formed and is managed by Oliver Mtukudzi. His music is a unique blend of styles ranging from Afro Jazz, Katekwe, Shangara and Jiti (the local traditional Zimbabwean genres). His sound is recognizable with intensely catchy Zimbabwean melodies and smooth vocals. With the help from Pakare Paye Arts Centre he managed to do numerous performances to school based audiences, weddings, community galas, birthday parties, festivals namely: Harare Jazz Festival, Victoria Falls Jazz Festival, Hifa 2010 (solo), Winter Jazz Festival, Ottawa Jazz Festival, Umoja Flying Cultural Carpet and local concerts at different venues.While still taking every opportunity to gigs the band recorded its two albums Denguremhodzi and Pashangara under TUKUMUSIC/ PAKARE PAYE label.Website: www.reverbnation/munyamataruse. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Munyamats (talk • contribs) 10:38, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Jihadi John

I just wanted to raise this issue for comment here as the title Jihadi John obviously makes reference to the real Beatle, John Lennon. Lennon, being born within the last 115 years still falls into the remit of WP:BLP. I have never heard of a family member of those killed by Emwazi themselves make any reference to him by the name "Jihadi John" and I certainly haven't heard any politician use the name. We are left in an interesting situation in which, for all I know, no primary source makes use of this designation and where it seems to be an spin or fabrication of secondary sources. I was wondering whether anything could be done about this. There is currently an RM proposing to move the title to Mohammed Emwazi here and an RM associated with The Beatles (terrorist cell) here.

I also have a supposition that, in developing the article a sequence such as the following may have happened. An editor may have heard of relevant topic in the news that could be added to the Jihadi John article. The editor then does an internet search on "topic Jihadi John". They then add another Jihadi John focussed reference to the article.

Even with the source material referenced, the article seems to disproportionately push the name "Jihadi John". For instance, when I added the replacement text "The masked militant in beheading videos" here so as to give a more faithful representation of source material, this change was instantly reverted. It makes no sense to me. GregKaye 16:09, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

If the name were "Jihadi John Lennon" then that would be more problematic. "John" is a very common name, so there's obviously nothing wrong with using the term "Jihadi John" at Wikipedia. The only issue is whether the name "Jihadi John" really needs to be explained as something more than alliteration. I don't see a problem with briefly explaining that at Wikipedia, even though Ringo is understandably displeased.[31]. Like Ringo, we do not control the facts.*Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:22, 10 March 2015 (UTC) *Except when it proves irresistible to enough editors and administrators.Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:45, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

No, that's not "the only issue". The main issue is whether the article should be called "Jihadi John" or not. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:52, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't see a BLP issue with the title of that article. It may be preferable to change the title, but not for BLP reasons. The current title does not obviously refer to John Lennon. Even if it did, bad people are named after good people all the time, such as John Wayne Gacy.[32]Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:05, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

I think he's slightly different, as he was legally given that name by Mr and Mrs Gacey. (Although of course, his nickname may be considered offensive to certain circus workers and children's party entertainers). Martinevans123 (talk) 17:12, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Sure, every case is slightly different. But fans of John Wayne are generally not thrilled to see the full name of their hero atop an article about a mass murderer. What Hollywood PR person would want that? Anyway, having opined, I'll kick back. Cheers.Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:23, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

P.S. The BLP policy says: "Anyone born within the past 115 years is covered by this policy unless a reliable source has confirmed their death." So, the policy could apply here only to "Jihadi John" and not to John Lennon (whose middle name, incidentally, referred to the British Prime Minister).Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:55, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

We are certainly grasping at straws here. WP:RECOGNIZABLE, Jihadi John is the most recognizable name for him. It might gain the annoyance of Beatles fans but that's not anything that remotely matters. Looking at the talk page this seems to be going into the realm of tendentious.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 14:27, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Use of primary source for validation of revocation of medical license at William C. Rader

William C. Rader (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) Is it [33] appropriate to use a primary source to validate that someone's medical license has been revoked when we do not have third parties discussing it? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:10, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Seems like a cut-and-dried case of WP:BLPPRIMARY to me. — Strongjam (talk) 19:15, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

WP:BLPPRIMARY merely advises caution when using primary sources, and the stated policy on WP:PRIMARY is as follows:

"Unless restricted by another policy, reliable primary sources may be used in Wikipedia; but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them.[4] Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge.

It is unequivocal that Rader had his license revoked for gross misconduct; there is no room for misinterpretation of this fact. One suggestion that I would make however, is to use a better primary source[34] than the spreadsheet entry that was originally linked. The license revocation can also be confirmed by a secondary source.[35] Rhode Island Red (talk) 19:49, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Actually the revocation was for not following the standard of care and of being "unrepentant." "Gross misconduct" is not found in the actual revocation decision. In the case at hand, the reasoning is clear in the decision. Collect (talk) 20:13, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Daisaku Ikeda

Hello. User:Catflap08 keeps deleting reliably sourced information using a primary source that doesn't even say what Catflap alleges it does.

Background: Daisaku Ikeda and the Soka Gakkai were excommunicated from Nichiren Shōshū in November 1991. Multiple sources (including one from the Japanese Journal of Religious Studies) currently on the page back this up.

Catflap is removing the "and the Soka Gakkai" portion of this equation, making it look like Daisaku Ikeda was singled out for excommunication. He wasn't. The entire organization was excommunicated. The source Catflap is using is purportedly the Nichiren Shōshū's official website[36] But that source itself states the following:

After excommunicating the Soka Gakkai organization, Nichiren Shoshu made continuous efforts to guide compassionately the Gakkai members back to the correct path of faith and practice. For a period of six years after the excommunication, individual Gakkai members who had received Gojukai from Nichiren Shoshu in the past were still recognized as Nichiren Shoshu lay believers. Nichiren Shoshu, however, could not continue with this situation, where a Gakkai member who follows Daisaku Ikeda qualifies as a Nichiren Shoshu lay believer. Nichiren Shoshu doctrine strictly prohibits its laity to hold membership in other religious organizations. On September 30, 1997, Nichiren Shoshu officially decided to terminate the membership of the Gakkai followers. After Nichiren Shoshu extensively notified the Gakkai members of this decision through its in-house publication and other means, the provision that all Gakkai members would lose their standing as Nichiren Shoshu lay believers went into effect on December 1, 1997. Emphasis added.

Not only does the primary source not refute what was on the page, it actually supports it. As I said on the talk page: Soka Gakkai was excommunited in 1991, but individual members were still recognized as lay believers. Six years later, in 1997, the recognition was revoked. When I pointed this out, Catflap's retort was "I was there at the excommunication." While that does raise wp:COI questions, I still don't see where that supports his biased edit to the BLP.

Here's a link to the Talk page, with more info: [37] AbuRuud (talk) 20:11, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Helooo I included refs by the guys who should know. I am no longer affiliated with either of the two. SGI’s leadership was expelled in 1991 the rest of the bunch in 1997.--Catflap08 (talk) 20:14, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

To be clear, Catflap deleted sourced information about the excommunication, not expulsion, of Soka Gakkai. They are two different things that he is seemingly conflating to POV push and make it look like Ikeda was the only one excommunicated.AbuRuud (talk) 20:59, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Catflap, who thinks "X was founded in 1914 and is a successor group to Y founded in 1881 and Z founded in 1885" means the same thing as "X was founded in 1880 under the name Y before changing its name to Z in 1884 and adopting its current name in 1914", should not be taken at his word when it comes to the difference between word meanings. And no, those dates are not misprinted -- he really does appear to have pulled "1881" and "1885" out of his nose. The same abuse of sources is problematic for other reasons. Note that the recent edit war on the Ikeda article involved Catflap claiming a source that doesn't even mention "November 28, 1991" anywhere, and doesn't specifically mention Ikeda being excommunicated either, should be attached to the statement Ikeda was excommunicated by Nichiren Shoshu on November 28, 1991.

I would say that this abuse of sources and the serious CIR issues on display should make Catflap a candidate for an indefinite TBAN on BLPs, if I didn't already think he should be indefinitely blocked for the same reasons.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:06, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

André Marin

This article was listed here a week or two ago, and not much has improved (if anything, situation is worse). It has been yo-yoing back and forth between a version that is very critical of the subject, a version that is quite positive towards him, and a stubbed version that (I think?) was supposed to be some kind of interim solution. There are multiple COI'd (by their own admission) editors involved and one or two accounts who only seem to edit this article but haven't declared a COI.

I've been trying to keep an eye on it but could use some advice/help - most recently someone tried to blank the entire page, and then started pasting in old content in plain text (without markup), so quite a mess. @Jytdog: was doing a pretty good job of it for a while but I think they've un-followed the article after this exchange on the talk page.

I'm not sure how this sort of situation is usually managed, so some help/advice would be very welcome. Fyddlestix (talk) 01:13, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Wikimandia seemed to have very strong ideas about how to proceed. If Wikimandia is not going to do anything after all I'll go back to trying to rebuild them. Just let me know. Jytdog (talk) 11:09, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

nick foles it says in his early years he was born with down syndrome but has recovered

probably should correct as there is no cure as of yet — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:C:4B80:1FD:7002:F934:4773:4096 (talk) 04:33, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Basic vandalism, now fixed.--ukexpat (talk) 12:19, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Maybelline Masuda

Maybelline Masuda

1. Wikipedia notability criteria not met. 2. Too soon. Achievements mentioned are either from top tier of relatively unknown events / lower skill tier of well known events. Kukurukuku (talk) 11:52, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

• I don't see a BLP concern here. Your comments seem more directed toward an AFD discussion. The article sourced and contains nothing controversial that I see. JodyB _talk 12:06, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Dick Cheney

Does

RS criticizing Cheney as a draft dodger[1], a “self-confessed draft dodger”.

Tam Dalyell, the Labour MP, father of the House of Commons and one of the leading rebel voices against war with Iraq, said: 'This is garbage from right-wing think-tanks stuffed with chicken-hawks -- men who have never seen the horror of war but are in love with the idea of war. Men like Cheney, who were draft-dodgers in the Vietnam war.

'This is a blueprint for US world domination -- a new world order of their making. These are the thought processes of fantasist Americans who want to control the world. I am appalled that a British Labour Prime Minister should have got into bed with a crew which has this moral standing.'[2]

fall under WP:BLP noting that "draft-dodger" is an accusation of a crime? ("Refusing to submit to the draft is considered a criminal offense in most countries where conscription is in effect.") I note that there is no source quoting Cheney as saying he was a "draft dodger" - the "self-confessed" source is "A Bush & Botox World" by Saul Landau; AK Press, 2007 - Political Science - 301 pages. That source appears to be " AK Press is a worker-managed independent publisher and book distributor that specialises in radical left and anarchist literature. It is collectively owned and operated." which fails WP:RS no matter who looks at it. Thus using a non-RS source to make a criminal charge about a living person I think might run afoul of policy here.

The editor of course posted [38]

Collect You know that you are supposed to raise BLP claims at the BLP board after deleting text on the basis of a claimed violation of BLP. You need to start following that directive and stop making unilateral pronouncements on such matters.--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 15:06, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

As that editor is the one who always says WP:CRYBLP is his favourite essay :), I trust that his demand that I prove that making criminal charges about living persons is covered by this actual policy will be adequately noted. Collect (talk) 15:21, 11 March 2015 (UTC)