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[[Western Air Express Flight 7]] used to have an external link to a page on the crashed aircraft on Ed Coates photo archive site, edcoatescollection.com. This was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Western_Air_Express_Flight_7&diff=prev&oldid=670340679 removed] a few days ago because the site [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki_talk:Spam-blacklist&diff=prev&oldid=670341155 now appears] on [[SURBL]]'s malware list, even though the site still appears to be up in its normal form. Does anyone know anything about the reliability of SURBL's malware reporting or whether Ed Coates should be informed of this? --[[User:Colin Douglas Howell|Colin Douglas Howell]] ([[User talk:Colin Douglas Howell|talk]]) 19:37, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
[[Western Air Express Flight 7]] used to have an external link to a page on the crashed aircraft on Ed Coates photo archive site, edcoatescollection.com. This was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Western_Air_Express_Flight_7&diff=prev&oldid=670340679 removed] a few days ago because the site [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki_talk:Spam-blacklist&diff=prev&oldid=670341155 now appears] on [[SURBL]]'s malware list, even though the site still appears to be up in its normal form. Does anyone know anything about the reliability of SURBL's malware reporting or whether Ed Coates should be informed of this? --[[User:Colin Douglas Howell|Colin Douglas Howell]] ([[User talk:Colin Douglas Howell|talk]]) 19:37, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
:Perhaps it can be addressed here [[ Wikipedia:Contact us - Subjects]] - cheers [[User:FOX 52|FOX 52]] ([[User talk:FOX 52|talk]]) 21:46, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

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"air traffic" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect air traffic. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 04:04, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

National Board of Study and Aerospace Research listed at Requested moves

A requested move discussion has been initiated for National Board of Study and Aerospace Research to be moved to ONERA. This page is of interest to this WikiProject and interested members may want to participate in the discussion here. —RMCD bot 22:49, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

GAF Nomad

The article on the GAF Nomad mentions a restart of production in 2013-2014. It would be nice to have the actual state of matters mentioned: did this really work out? Are any newly-built samples flying? Jan olieslagers (talk) 19:46, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

GippsAero's website mentions that they plan to bring the GA18 (i.e. Nomad) to market in 2015 after an extensive development, testing and certification programme. The website has no news of flights etc. of new-built GA18s and interestingly, only shows computer renders rather than actual photographs, which strongly suggests that they may not have cut metal yet.Nigel Ish (talk) 20:21, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Doesnt appear to be any reference to the development aircraft since it arrived in Australia as VH-XGZ in 2011. MilborneOne (talk) 20:34, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
They don't seem to have certified the GippsAero GA10 yet, which I suspect may be a higher priority.Nigel Ish (talk) 20:45, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Persistent violation to MOS:FLAGS

Please note that JamesG2000 (talk · contribs) has been adding flags across a number of aviation-related articles. I've given them a final warning.--Jetstreamer Talk 21:01, 31 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've done a revert of him in an airline/destination article. He did a lot of airport route statistics table too, but I can't find any WT:AIRPORT discussion against it. (And it's tolerable to me, especially if country names are removed from the table.) HkCaGu (talk) 05:14, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that we are not using flags on the statistics table for USA states. I am not sure about international routes but many of the European airport pages have flags on their statistics table. However, per WP:AIRLINE-DEST-LIST and MOS:Flags no flags in the airline destinations page. Citydude1017 (talk) 03:53, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've reported the user at WP:ANI [1].--Jetstreamer Talk 16:17, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Definition of "bustle" in an aviation context?

In File:China Airlines Flight 140 EN.svg I'm trying to find the definition of a bustle. Does it mean a kind of cover on machinery? This is important because I want to translate this image into Chinese. WhisperToMe (talk) 18:27, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not heard of it but as "B" doesnt actually appear in the diagram it probably doesnt matter. MilborneOne (talk) 18:47, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'll assume it just means "a cover of an electronic component" - I'll try to find a Chinese person to translate the legend so the Chinese version can be made. WhisperToMe (talk) 19:08, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The good news: The maps are now internationalized into Chinese. WhisperToMe (talk) 17:55, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well done, did you ever find out what Bustle was or even where it was ? MilborneOne (talk) 18:10, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It referred to the cover of the escape slides. Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2015_June_2#Requested_translation:_What_are_the_terms_in_File:China_Airlines_Flight_140_EN.svg__in_Chinese.3F ("I can't answer your main question, but I think bustle refers specifically to the cover of the stored evacuation slide. See the second paragraph of the linked article.") WhisperToMe (talk) 00:24, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"3D printing in aerospace industry"

FYI, 3D-printed spacecraft has been requested to be renamed to "aerospace industry" -- 70.51.46.11 (talk) 04:37, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

See Talk:3D-printed spacecraft for the discussion -- 70.51.202.183 (talk) 04:43, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

rotax 912 "development"

See "this edit"<https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rotax_912&curid=4627435&diff=667871307&oldid=667752122> I reverted the nonsense but the IP-user re-reverted. What can be done except a revert war? Jan olieslagers (talk) 06:59, 21 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If there is continued disruptive editing, the article can be semi-protected. Mjroots (talk) 08:19, 21 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Pretty easy, really. I have found and added a reliable ref (the operators manual) and then adjusted the text to conform to the cited ref. Any changes that contradict the cited ref are basically vandalism. - Ahunt (talk) 11:42, 21 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Dank u wel! And I will gladly agree that an operator's manual does constitute encyclopaedical value. Jan olieslagers (talk) 14:01, 21 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't get any more "expert" on engines than the manufacturer! - Ahunt (talk) 14:12, 21 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Copyright Violation Detection - EranBot Project

A new copy-paste detection bot is now in general use on English Wikipedia. Come check it out at the EranBot reporting page. This bot utilizes the Turnitin software (ithenticate), unlike User:CorenSearchBot that relies on a web search API from Yahoo. It checks individual edits rather than just new articles. Please take 15 seconds to visit the EranBot reporting page and check a few of the flagged concerns. Comments welcome regarding potential improvements. These likely copyright violations can be searched by WikiProject categories. Use "control-f" to jump to your area of interest.--Lucas559 (talk) 22:30, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

New aerospace engineer Bio at Draft: Maurice Brennan

KreyszigB (talk · contribs) has produced Draft:Maurice Brennan. Brennan was a British aircraft designer, he worked at Saunders-Roe on helicopters and then the SR53 and 177 mixed power interceptors. He took over at Folland after Teddy Petter left then later worked at Avro and Hawker Siddeley. Could someone look it over with a view to promotion to article space - it seems good to me (some fettling needed but only stylistic issues) but I'm not acquainted with the process. GraemeLeggett (talk) 19:47, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

2015 Indonesia Hercules C-130 crash

New article - experienced eyes needed. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:11, 30 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Russian hypersonics

Do we have an article on Russian hypersonic military platforms? (ie. Yu-71, Project 4202) like the Chinese WU-14, the U.S. DARPA Falcon Project/Advanced Hypersonic Weapon, the Indian Hypersonic Technology Demonstrator Vehicle -- 67.70.32.20 (talk) 06:03, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In principle, the red links say we don't.--Jetstreamer Talk 13:15, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Only if they are spelled in the manner in which I wrote them, and if they're not covered in some other article as parts of a section who no one created redirects for. Since there are US and Chinese articles, I'd figure that Russia would have gotten attention as well. -- 67.70.32.20 (talk) 03:48, 5 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ryanair Flight 296

The non-notable Ryanair Flight 296 was redirected per a decision at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ryanair Flight 296 (2nd nomination) but continues to be restored by Ridland as an article, I doubt it has become notable in time so I have been changing it back to a redirect per the previous decision, any comments ? MilborneOne (talk) 16:53, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Just to note that I have suggested to User:Ridland to take the original decisions for Ryanair Flight 296 and KLM Flight 1673 to Wikipedia:Deletion review, rather than continually restore them, thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 17:26, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Aviation rocket engines

FYI, there is a notice at Template talk:Rocket Engines that concerns this project -- 67.70.32.20 (talk) 05:25, 5 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There is a discussion on List of aircraft of the Swiss Air Force regarding the use of images in tables listing the equipment used by various air forces. As it stands there is something of a mess with these pages - some air forces have images in the table, some alongside, some have no images at all, and some have straight lists with or without images. Some degree of uniformity should be carried out across all of these pages especially as they are likely to be compared to each other. In addition, some air forces have separate pages for current and historic, others combine them into a single page, but as separate lists, and others have them in a single table. So far the discussion has just been about the use of images.

The points I have laid out so far are thus:
  1. Many aircraft lack images or lack images for the appropriate air force leaving blanks or photos of inappropriate aircraft (wrong AF mostly).
  2. Images are of random sizes, messing up table formatting.
  3. The purpose of the table is to provide information, not be a gallery. Wikimedia is for galleries.
  4. They take up a lot of space, stretching even fairly short lists into unmanageable ones.
  5. Images in tables are too small to see properly on smaller screens such as cell phones.
  6. If someone is interested in what the aircraft looks like there is already a link to that aircraft's page.
  7. The tables that have images are almost all for current inventory, which covers a small number of types - historical listings rarely have images inline, not least because they are less likely to be the focus of nationalistic zealotry, and they have a lot more entries and would be unmanageable for even a medium sized air force. They should be consistent, and the likelihood of finding appropriate images for a majority of historical listings is low. Images should be used sparingly, and should add to the article beyond making it look pretty (which they don't) - in fact there is a wiki rule against that being the sole purpose for images.
  8. Of all the information one can put in a table, an image is a long way down the useful list - when it entered service is far more important but there is no room for that in many current tables, nor is there even room to give each entry a single line.
  9. Because other lists have them is no reason at all (another wiki rule). Many lists are not infected by useless clutter such as:
List of aircraft of the Royal Canadian Navy
List of historic aircraft of the People's Liberation Army Air Force
List of military aircraft of Japan
List of historical aircraft of the Indian Air Force
List of Regia Aeronautica aircraft used in World War II
List of aircraft of the Royal Air Force
List of military aircraft of Sweden
List of military aircraft of the Soviet Union and the CIS
List of Albanian Air Force aircraft
List of aircraft of Argentine Naval Aviation
Belize Defence Force Air Wing
List of active Brazilian military aircraft
List of aircraft of the Brazilian Navy
List of active Bulgarian military aircraft
List of former Bulgarian military aircraft
List of active People's Liberation Army aircraft
List of military aircraft of Denmark
List of active Egyptian military aircraft
List of aircraft of the Egyptian Air Force
List of military aircraft of Finland
List of aircraft of Canada's air forces

And on, and on... indeed more of these air force lists lack images than have them. NiD.29 (talk) 21:30, 5 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

For the past several months I've been updating the tables (sourcing/ sub-headings etc) following the Aviation/Style guide/Lists and WP:IMAGEMOS (Don't overload articles with images) as per NiD.29 point and bring some uniformity to these tables - FOX 52 (talk) 23:12, 5 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The section on Sortable lists of aircraft types is not really suitable for national lists, as it includes a column for nationality. Some of the air force lists under discussion include additional columns, such as numbers in service, that people might want to keep. I'd suggest that we adapt the columns accordingly and add a new section to the style guide page for Lists of types in a given organisation" or similar heading. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 08:21, 6 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hello all together Pictures make the chart more attractive to the reader. Images are information carriers and give the reader a first impression of the aircraft to the publically available information.For the active inventory it should be no problem to find the right picture (type& Nation), its more live in the page with a picture to every type in the list (type& Nation). As can be seen, this (pictures in the chart) is used inventory lists for other Air Force on Wikipedia.

So I am for having pictures in the inventory lists. I think in active inventory such a picture is a must have, and even by air forces (for eg.List of currently active Russian military aircraft) I see no problem. I would prefere to have the pictures in the active inventory and the one with retired aircraft. But I can see that by the historical aircraft not for any aircraft a picture can be found, so its not that important to me.FFA P-16 (talk) 20:48, 6 July 2015 (UTC) And a other "big fish" List of active United States military aircraftFFA P-16 (talk) 20:56, 6 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with NiD.29 per his points - images in the table are unnecessary, and only clutter the page, causing formatting issues. The purpose of the table(s) is to provide information, not be a gallery. They take up a lot of space, stretching long lists into unmanageable ones. And Images in tables are too small to see properly on smaller screens such as smart phones. If someone is interested in what the aircraft looks like there is already a link to that aircraft's page - FOX 52 (talk) 21:18, 6 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Since were listing pages I've already overhauled 112 air force tables with 39 to go (following the basic Aviation guide/Lists with out images). I began this project back in December - FOX 52 (talk) 21:25, 6 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Aircraft Photo Origin Role Version Number
Comment/NOTES or whatever this box should be called
F-16 [[file:some photo.ext|100px]] USA etc etc etc
Place a all that supplementary information that makes all these tables odd looking with too much whitespace here, on a separate line below, like how episode lists handle episode summaries
Those have horrible formatting. I recommend using a two-line format, like how TV episode lists are formatted, so that the "notes" or whatever the long commentary section is called, appears as a table-wide box below the other boxes for the particular list entry. A picture can be standardized a 100px, and would not be intrusive, but, as to whether it's a good idea or not, I have no opinion. -- 67.70.32.20 (talk) 03:01, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No that's still leading to the problem of images which will clutter the page, causing formatting issues. The purpose of the table(s) is to provide information, not be a gallery - TV episode are a little different than aircraft type list - FOX 52 (talk) 04:15, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
How about...
Name CAF
Designation		 Place of
manufacture		 Primary
role(s)		 Service
Entry		 Retired #
Used		 Notes
Airbus Polaris CC-150 France transport/tanker 1992 current 5 [4][note 2]
Airco DH.4 n/a UK bomber 1920 1928 12 [5]
Active types are highlighted with an alternate colour, and there is lots of room for the full name of the aircraft. Because current use is small, it can be merged with the historical use, so those types that have been in use forever are not conspicuously absent from the historical listing which can not then be used to provide an idea of what equipment an air arm had at some particular point in time. A note can indicate if current inventory has been reduced.
No need for a version column, which again gets bloated easily, with the versions listed with the aircraft name. Versions associated with a different use (trainers for instance) can have their own entry. Instead an optional column can cover alternate designations where the particular air arm changed the designations at some point (US and RCAF for instance both changed designation systems)
Place of Manufacture is a better choice than Origin as not all aircraft are built where the design originated - for instance the Swiss historical list has to go through hoops with the Harvard II, which originated in the US but was built in Canada. Rather than the "North American (Noorduyn) Harvard IIB" it uses which isn't normal usage, it could have "North American Harvard IIB" (normal use) - with the Place of Manufacture being Canada.
Notes is for the references most of these pages lack, and it gets the supplementary notes (which often are long winded and full of trivia and cruft) out of the way and not messing up the formatting or providing distractions like how much a program cost, or what aircraft they traded where (for an example of this type of mess see the current Turkish list which needs severe trimming).
All columns MUST be sortable so the information can be put into context, which non-sortable tables with column spans cannot. The purpose of a table is to provide context. A table that can't be sorted is useless for most of the reasons anyone would put the information in a table in the first place.
CONTEXT! CONTEXT! CONTEXT! - cheers, :-) NiD.29 (talk) 05:21, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Compare how clean and readable and useful List of aircraft of Canada's air forces is, compared with List of active aircraft of the Turkish Air Force whose format actively prevents comparisons between table entries, and whose pictures reduce the number of visible entries even on a large screen to a small number - how much is visible on a small screen? Part of one entry, maybe? Will the public come back to that page? Probably not - they will go elsewhere because they can't make sense of what it has.NiD.29 (talk) 05:27, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Dear NiD.29, I think the List of active aircraft of the Turkish Air Force still looks good, on diffrend screens.. I have checked it out so far on 4 differend sizes of screens. i see no problem. Also I have to say that the List of aircraft of the Royal Canadian Air Force looks much more attractive to me to reading as List of aircraft of Canada's air forces ( Tow times Canada, one with pics one without).FFA P-16 (talk) 12:51, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Tables should be void of mini images, (tables) are to provide concise information, not be a gallery, that's for Wikimedia - And a few examples other tables (no pictures needed) List of muscles of the human body, List of rulers of China, Timeline of deportations of French Jews to death camps, List of Metropolitan Statistical Areas, Cheers and Coach (TV series) and we should not be the exception, that's why we have Help:Links - FOX 52 (talk) 16:03, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Fox. yes if someone is interested in pictures he can go to wikimedia But we have the the possibility to use the pictures in many ways in wikipedia, and "a picture tells more than thousand words" Having a picture in every row of a type in this lists is far a way from beeing a gallery. We are here now discuss about Inventory chards / lists of Air Force/Military table formats. I think it is not a good idea to have one single rule for all these lists/charts/.. for all kinds of issues that exist in Wikipeda. if we already compare should be with a comparable theme, like for eg.

As a few exampels FFA P-16 (talk) 17:09, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, I'd like to say that - in my opinion - List of aircraft of the Royal Canadian Air Force is one of the clumsiest, ugliest tables in existence on Wikipedia. And you need to work on your wikilinking. GraemeLeggett (talk) 18:35, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I dont have a strong view either way on images but as Graeme has said List of aircraft of the Royal Canadian Air Force is not the way to go, the load of text in a table cell is probably a worse thing than the image, but we do have worse at List of aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force. MilborneOne (talk) 19:34, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Probably the reason why most tables don't have images, they take up a lot more space than needed and agree I with GraemeLeggett just "clumsiest, ugliest" looking table - FOX 52 (talk) 19:40, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I would say by the List of aircraft of the Royal Canadian Air Force not the pictures make it to a clumsie table, i would say there is to much text in the "notes". Yes the List of aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force is ugly, but this is not because of the pictures it is in general a little chaotic and again to much text in the "Notes". I think on the other hand the List of currently active Russian military aircraft is a nice example for such a table . The pictures are good and make the list interesting and appealing as without pictures.FFA P-16 (talk) 18:07, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Both the pictures and excessive text make it clumsy and ugly, but take away the notes and will still be clumsy and pointless - it may as well be just an article - lists (especially when made into tables) are not simply simply a cute formatting exercise - the whole point is that they facilitate the understanding of the information presented, which a table that is loaded with images and excessive text does not, and indeed cannot. A picture may tell a story of thousand words (although a picture of an aircraft almost never does), but it is not a story that belongs in the table - the table is telling a different story - of how that one aircraft relates to others used by the same organization - in numbers, dates, where it was purchased etc - the picture is a distraction from the other things we can learn - which often we can only learn from a sortable table. Can you tell me at a glance what the most numerous aircraft in the Swiss inventory has been? Without scrolling through the entire list? Or what types were merely tested rather than being widely used? One click on the clean, image-free sortable list and you have that information - information you could not easily see by scrolling through it, or even determine from the cluttered up list with the pictures. (It is the Morane-Saulnier 406 and variants btw). In addition, once images are added, the list becomes a magnet for useless trivia that doesn't belong there, as the Pakistan and Current RCAF tables clearly demonstrate.NiD.29 (talk) 18:32, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hello NiD29 A picture gives the reader much faster an information what general type of aircraft it is than text ( you see a 4 engine higwing T tail jet Transport AC). To understand me right i am not only for pictures iam for pictures AND of how that one aircraft relates to others used by the same organization - in numbers, dates, where it was purchased etc. "Without scrolling through the entire list? " ? If you look for some special information you have to scrol trough the list no mather if there are pictures or not. Also I have to say for me a list with pictures looks much more interesting, the pictures motivate to have a closer look at the list or a part of it. But having no pictures make a list looking (in german you say "trocken " =dry, dusty). Not every one knows how a A-50 look like so the can see it right on the list and have not to click to the pages woh decribe the aircraft type, then go back to the list and do this for every type. If we have the pictures in an aproped size and in a clear row they dont clutter up the list. As I sayd before i testet it on 4 differend screens of differend sitzes,I had no problem with the pictures, the list. And today we have the tools to crate nice lists with pictures so we should use this, for me lists without picture look also very oldfashion You have to remeber we humans taking on informations on the first priorety on the visual way, so pictures help us to get informations. FFA P-16 (talk) 19:38, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And i find it much easyer to finde an aircaft type (for ge F/A-18, MiG-29) by his photo, than seach in a only text list for this aircraft.FFA P-16 (talk) 19:43, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Turkish list is horrid, due to the comments causing massive amounts of whitespace

Aircraft Origin Role something or other something or other something or other Notes
Comments
F-16 USA etc etc etc etc [a][b][c]
Place a all that supplementary information that makes all these tables odd looking with too much whitespace here, on a separate line below, like how episode lists handle episode summaries

Regardless of whether there are images in the table or not, all the tables with extended commentary per entry, should use a two-line format. -- 67.70.32.20 (talk) 06:18, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

For example, from the Turkish Air Force list, we have this horrible amount of vertical whitespace:

Aircraft Photo Origin Role Version Number Note
Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon F-16C  USA
 Turkey 		Multirole fighter F-16C
F-16D 		185
57 		Turkish Aerospace Industries manufactured 242 F-16C/D aircraft in Block 30 and 40. 163 Turkish F-16 have been modernised under the Common Configuration Implementation Program (CCIP) bringing them to Block 50+ configuration. TAI has commenced modernizing 30 of its F-16 Block 30 fleet with an indigenous package developed by ASELSAN as a test bed for the TAI TFX program. TuAF additionally operates 30 F-16 Block 50+ with Conformal Fuel Tanks.

But it could look like

Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon  USA
 Turkey 		Multirole fighter F-16C
F-16D 		185
57
Turkish Aerospace Industries manufactured 242 F-16C/D aircraft in Block 30 and 40. 163 Turkish F-16 have been modernised under the Common Configuration Implementation Program (CCIP) bringing them to Block 50+ configuration. TAI has commenced modernizing 30 of its F-16 Block 30 fleet with an indigenous package developed by ASELSAN as a test bed for the TAI TFX program. TuAF additionally operates 30 F-16 Block 50+ with Conformal Fuel Tanks.

or without the picture

Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon  USA
 Turkey 		Multirole fighter F-16C
F-16D 		185
57
Turkish Aerospace Industries manufactured 242 F-16C/D aircraft in Block 30 and 40. 163 Turkish F-16 have been modernised under the Common Configuration Implementation Program (CCIP) bringing them to Block 50+ configuration. TAI has commenced modernizing 30 of its F-16 Block 30 fleet with an indigenous package developed by ASELSAN as a test bed for the TAI TFX program. TuAF additionally operates 30 F-16 Block 50+ with Conformal Fuel Tanks.

which have much better presentation -- 67.70.32.20 (talk) 06:28, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The issue then is the length of the comment. Table should be for pithy and to the point content. Further detail will (should be) in the aircraft of air force articles. GraemeLeggett (talk) 11:04, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
None of those are useful presentations - they all break table functionality, and are hideous to boot. Again the whole point of the table is to do something you cannot do with just text in a aparagraph - the layouts you have made may as well just be text and not be a list at all.
Name Place of
manufacture		 Role(s) Service
Entry		 Retired #
Used		 Notes
Lockheed Martin F-16C Fighting Falcon  US/ Turkey Multirole fighter 19? n/a 185 [note 1]
Lockheed Martin F-16D Fighting Falcon  US/ Turkey Multirole fighter/trainer 19? n/a 57 [note 1]
There has yet to be a single rational argument provided to support leaving images in the table other than one person thinks they look pretty - which is a non-argument as that is already covered by wiki rules (ie no unnecessary images, and no excess images, and images should be pertinent to the page) - but lots to the contrary. An image adds nothing when there is already a link to the aircraft's page. Yet another broken format variation on the same theme is not helpful.NiD.29 (talk) 22:19, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • As it stands I think the debate has run it's course, and appears we should keep in place of what we currently use (image to remain out of the Table(s)) - FOX 52 (talk) 23:00, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think the result is that the photos have to go. The rules preclude them and I haven't seen a good reason to "ignore all rules" presented here. "It looks nice" is not a good enough reason. - Ahunt (talk) 23:20, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The picture helps to recognize an aircraft than searching its name in the list. It is annoying if you then still have to switch between pages back and forth just turn around as certain types of aircraft at an Air Force look.Nowadays it is rather unusual that there are no pictures to support the text in a document of this kind.FFA P-16 (talk) 05:43, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am against images in the lists, and they also go against policy (which has been made clear enough). Although there has not been a poll or vote, I count opinions now as:
For images: 1
No preference: 2
Against images: 4
No view expressed: 1
But more significantly, the arguments against are supported by policy while the arguments for are supported only by "why I like them" statements. As it happens, this is also the majority view so we have a very clear consensus to remove images from these lists.
I am also against long screeds of text, they also are not what list tables are for. I don't think the relevant policy has been explicitly brought up yet in this thread but I am sure it can be found. Do we need to dig it out or can we call this a wrap too?
Finally, I should like to raise the issue of national flags. Certainly, our guideline on sortable lists of aircraft in general forbids them and ISTR there is longstanding wider policy and consensus that they should not be used in this kind of list. Does anybody have a problem with this?
— Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 19:28, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I believe by consensus the only place we use flags is in the operator section of aircraft articles and not anywhere else. MilborneOne (talk) 20:06, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Question regarding Origin (or Place of manufacture) I've place the original producer of a type ei; Brazilian Air Force use of the EC-725 origin France and in notes stated "licensed manufactured by Helibras" as opposed to made Brazil as the Origin - thoughts - FOX 52 (talk) 20:00, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The origin is normally where the aircraft are built so in the case you mention it should be just Brazil. MilborneOne (talk) 20:03, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • (E/C) For Origin as in national origin in Infobox WP:Air has used where it was originally designed and built. For license production we're have sometimes listed both like France/Brazil if the license manufacturer partnered with the original manufacturer for the local version, such as the TAI/AgustaWestland T129. Just depends on what reasonably fits the situation. -Fnlayson (talk) 20:12, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
OK then a note should be made perhaps stating the original creator of the type? - FOX 52 (talk) 20:09, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Listing "Place of manufacture" like in Steelpillow's last table above seems to handle things best, imo. -Fnlayson (talk) 20:17, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

For the flags I see to possible ways 1. only the flag of the orginal creator of the type. 2. Flag of the creator of the type and flag of the place it was built but wit the note Built under license. Two flags with no such note like in the example here shown with the Turkish Air Force F-16 is not so good, I would use more than one flag without the not build under license only for multinational aircraft like the Jaguar, Tornado, Eurofighter,.. And if you are against photos in the list so please treated al this air force list equal. For eg.It's weird when an Australian forcible all photos from the Swiss Air Force list deletes, but in the list on the Australian Air Force All pictures can be in the list.FFA P-16 (talk) 20:57, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Those articles mentioned will be rectified, with image pulled from the table(s) - FOX 52 (talk) 21:43, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

List of rotorcraft

Wondering if we have any editors who plan to tackle red linked aircraft in this article (List of rotorcraft). And are any non-notable worth keeping? - FOX 52 (talk) 19:44, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In some cases I suspect that typos might be at fault "coaxil" not being a word I am familiar with. Even if the link would produce a non-notable article, the item would still need to be listed GraemeLeggett (talk) 20:00, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Good point, I didn't think typos might be a problem - I'll have a look see FOX 52 (talk) 18:35, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Western Air Express Flight 7 used to have an external link to a page on the crashed aircraft on Ed Coates photo archive site, edcoatescollection.com. This was removed a few days ago because the site now appears on SURBL's malware list, even though the site still appears to be up in its normal form. Does anyone know anything about the reliability of SURBL's malware reporting or whether Ed Coates should be informed of this? --Colin Douglas Howell (talk) 19:37, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps it can be addressed here Wikipedia:Contact us - Subjects - cheers FOX 52 (talk) 21:46, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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