Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions
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:IMO this statement is akin to the several occasions when the current president has tweeted something later seen as actionable in potential legal proceedings, such as calling for citizens employed in the private sector to be fired or declaring a suspect in a crime be given the death penalty. The admin here has declared a personal bias, echoing conservative's attacks on the mainstream media. This admin cannot be allowed to render a decision in this Enforcement proceeding. [[User:TheValeyard|TheValeyard]] ([[User talk:TheValeyard|talk]]) 02:54, 5 December 2017 (UTC) |
:IMO this statement is akin to the several occasions when the current president has tweeted something later seen as actionable in potential legal proceedings, such as calling for citizens employed in the private sector to be fired or declaring a suspect in a crime be given the death penalty. The admin here has declared a personal bias, echoing conservative's attacks on the mainstream media. This admin cannot be allowed to render a decision in this Enforcement proceeding. [[User:TheValeyard|TheValeyard]] ([[User talk:TheValeyard|talk]]) 02:54, 5 December 2017 (UTC) |
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====Statement by DHeyward ==== |
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Firstly, the article isn't under AP2 sanctions, it's under BLP. The notification requirement is the BLP case. VM knows this. Second, VM continues to use the AE process to bludgeon opponents. He is under a topic ban for Donald Trump and it's an extremely obtuse view to not include articles regarding the election of Roy Moore as being unrelated to Trump. The man story in virtually all news outlets today is Trump's endorsement of Moore. Claiming Moore is unrelated to Trump in even the broad interpretation we use is like saying Rudolf the Reindeer is unrelated to Santa Claus. VM needs to be banned from filing these frivolous AE requests and sanctiond for violating his topic ban. --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 04:20, 5 December 2017 (UTC) |
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====Statement by (username)==== |
====Statement by (username)==== |
Revision as of 04:21, 5 December 2017
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions
![]() | Important information Please use this page only to:
For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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NadirAli
Closing with no action. NadirAli is warned to focus on content, not nationality. ~ Rob13Talk 01:30, 30 November 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning NadirAli
[My apologies for the length of this complaint, but it is an unusual one.] NadirAli is an old hand of the ARBIPA sanctions. After multiple blocks and topic bans, the ARBCOM has very cautiously lifted his topic ban in December 2015. Unfortunately, NadirAli's conduct was rarely above board since then, with frequent edit-warring and POV-pushing reported. This ANI complaint and my input there represented the situation as of mid-summer 2017. Things have changed quite dramatically since then. In contrast to mindless POV pushing and incoherent talk page argumentation that used to be his hallmark, NadirAli has taken to editing sophisticated content on difficult topics like Kashmir conflict and 1971 Bangladesh Genocide (full list below) and also engage in sophisticated discussion with high-sounding words in talk page discussions. But all this apparent quality seems fake because he also drops back to his traditional low-quality debates where he speaks in his own voice, with curious phrases like
Compare that to the language like:
There is a strong indication that the words of different individuals are being presented to us under the umbrella of one user account. An analysis reveals a strong correlation with the interests of Towns Hill (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who was topic-banned from India-Pakistan conflicts on 15 May 2016 and from all ARBIPA pages by this board on 18 January 2017. Subsequently, he created several socks such as Losthistory9, Problematics, Sicilianbro2, ChakDeHind, etc. All these accounts have been blocked and are now tagged as socks of Faizan (who was determined to be the master account). After these blocks, there is evidence that Towns Hill has taken to getting other editors to do proxy edits for him. I have argued here that he used Owais Khursheed to install Rape in Kashmir conflict. Several IPs edit-warred at Standstill agreement (India) and Indian annexation of Hyderabad, and launched RfCs, with possible guidance from Towns Hill. One of the IPs, 47.31.9.34, cut-and-pasted bits of email messages (now revdeled), which indicated proxy editing. NadirAli has now picked up many of the topics that Towns Hill used to be active in, and is doing the kind of edits that Towns Hill would have done, using the kind of sources Towns Hill would have used, and arguing like Towns Hill. This makes me believe that NadirAli is doing proxy editing for Towns Hill.
To make sure that I wasn't totally wrong about all this, I went through all his edits over the last 12 months that added 400 bytes or more. There were 112 such edits. Other than the Towns Hill interests listed below, only five of those edits cited (possibly) scholarly sources: [3], [4], [5], [6]. This is the sum total of NadirAli's scholarly contribution to Wikipedia in a whole year. Yet we are expected to believe that he is able to add 15,000 bytes of scholarly content in an hour at Kashmir conflict. He is brow-beating us. I am requesting input from the admins familiar with the Towns Hill case: EdJohnston, Bishonen, Vanamonde93, Bbb23, RegentsPark
Discussion concerning NadirAliStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by NadirAliStatement by Black KiteAs soon as I got to the first bullet point I thought "really?" To wit, "Here, for example, he is pushing for "tertiary sources like Schofield", referring to Victoria Schofield, who is a writer without any academic credentials". According to her article, Schofield has a Masters in Modern History from Oxford University. You don't get much more credentialed than that. I didn't bother reading past that point. Black Kite (talk) 11:05, 28 November 2017 (UTC) Statement by Capitals00The significant issue is that I had filed an ARE months ago[7] and NadirAli was warned not to edit war, but he has continued. First removing content[8] without summary or explanation, then edit warring.[9][10] NadirAli also attempted to canvass[11][12] during this dispute. Edit warring on Kashmir conflict has been detailed as well. Reverting to his version without getting consensus. 3 editors agreed to remove NadirAli's long POV edits,[13] yet he reverted to his preferred version.[14] Capitals00 (talk) 11:41, 28 November 2017 (UTC) NadirAli makes his claims without giving diffs. Starting with his claim that last ARE only concerned an incident where he was "edit warring against Faizan" but that's deceptive of NadirAli because he was engaged in multiple edit wars, and also a page move war, the same day when ARE was filed. Misrepresenting me here as "who's been on Wikipedia hardly two years"[15] despite I am editing since December 2012, over 5 years now. Also nonsensical is his claim about an unknown IP [16] because no IP has canvassed me against NadirAli. @Sandstein and Dennis Brown: In addition to his evident deception, long term edit warring which could be seen on Hindustan, Kashmir conflict, while knowing that he has no consensus as per the diffs I provided, this new comment by NadirAli[17] shows that a topic ban on his account is warranted. It shows his long term WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality that already resulted in siteban from Wikipedia before. Capitals00 (talk) 05:28, 29 November 2017 (UTC) Statement by Mar4dIMO, this report seems to be in bad faith. I just don't see any substance. It appears to be a half-baked attempt to grind an axe against NadirAli, whom Kautilya3 is involved in a major content "war" with at Kashmir conflict. Half of that dispute mainly revolves around the correct use and interpretation of sources, which I personally observed. And to add to the frustration I presume, Kautilya3's unsuccessful attempts to get an WP:UNDUE source cited into the article (see Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_58#Scholarly_article_labelled_FRINGE), which as correctly pointed out and verified by uninvolved editors, was sourced to a barely-cited scholar. Yet I am still seeing Kautilya3 and his friends claiming the source is not undue, exactly after what came about from the fringe noticeboard. I'm sorry to say, but these users are orchestrating a blatant WP:POV campaign and wreaking havoc across Wikipedia articles - and it's only a matter of time before someone called their bluff. Unfortunately, this time it's NadirAli who's been caught in the crossfire. I certainly cannot draw any connection solely on the basis of editing Kashmir and Bangladesh articles; because both these are highly edited topics amongst WikiProject Pakistan editors, have always been and always will be. Any contributions across these contentious areas that aim to balance the POVs are inevitable - it's a matter of fact and there's just no other way about it. And I am not buying the nonsensical argument that a user who's been editing since 2006 would have no idea about identifying and quoting his sources. After all, Kautilya3 has only been an editor for 3 years. And I am surprised at the frequency with which these arbitrations are filed back and forth, nearly every time by Kautilya3 against some new foe that he's picked up. Each time with new diversionary tactics, or "evidence" conjured out of thin air purporting to link to a grand conspiracy, to the point that it now seems too good to be true. What it tells me instead is a desperate attempt to get rid of any opposing editor, and go to any lengths possible, whilst constantly disregarding WP:CON and WP:GAMING the editing process repetitively. I would strongly argue for WP:BOOMERANG with such reports. Mar4d (talk) 16:08, 28 November 2017 (UTC) Statement by NadirAli (response)I was just made aware of this issue. I would have to say first, that Kautilya's allegations regarding Hindustan are ridiculous. He has persistently supported removing of supporting sources with unreliable content and original research and I wasn't alone in this concern while accusing me of edit warring when I restored it. I'll respond to some of the other allegations shortly.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 22:17, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by MPS1992@Black Kite: the comment "a writer without any academic credentials" is indeed incorrect and a BLP violation if the person concerned has a Master's degree from Oxford. However, "You don't get much more credentialed than that" is also incorrect: this is normally just an undergraduate degree. MPS1992 (talk) 22:59, 28 November 2017 (UTC) Result concerning NadirAli
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Kingsindian
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Kingsindian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 09:39, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- Template for post 1932 American politics. I am proposing an amendment.
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- The Wordsmith (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Diff of notification.
Statement by Kingsindian
[To clarify, I have described The Wordsmith as the admin imposing the sanction because they have in the past acted as a steward for Coffee's administrative actions.]
I am here seeking a relatively narrow amendment.
- Consensus required: All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion). If in doubt, don't make the edit.
- Rescinded. The provision can be applied for individual pages at admin discretion, but is not part of the template.
- Limit of one revert in 24 hours: This article is under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24-hour period).
- Replaced by: Each editor is limited to one revert per page per 24 hours. If an edit is reverted by another editor, its original author may not restore it within 24 hours. The normal exemptions apply. Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offense.
The situation is as follows:
In May 2016, Coffee created a template (linked above) which is used on more than 100 pages dealing with American politics. The template includes a "consensus required" provision: challenged material should not be restored unless it has consensus.
- The template has been used in the past as a "default" template for American politics topics. For instance, Ks0stm says here:
FWIW, I only placed the article under 1RR/consensus required because that was what came packaged in 2016 US Election AE [template]; it wasn't so much an explicit decision to make it consensus required.
- Some admins do indeed explicitly want to enforce the "consensus required" provision. See the AE request here, and the comment by TonyBallioni.
- The value of the provision is, let's say, contested. I can give my own view here, to make it clear where I'm coming from: it's a very bad idea.
I propose that the template to be used as the "default" for post-1932 American elections contain the amendment I proposed. The amendment is modeled on the solution used in ARBPIA, and takes care of a very common justification for the "consensus required" provision (see TonyBallioni's comment linked above, for instance). This is a much more lightweight, well-tested and clearer sanction. To be clear: individual pages may still have the "consensus required" provision placed on them. In this way, collateral damage from what I consider a bad provision will be minimized. If ArbCom wishes to make an explicit statement either way (either rescinding the consensus required provision altogether, or to affirm it to be the "default"), they can also do so.
See also this AE request, in which the solution I propose comes pretty close to being accepted, but somehow it never got closed one way or another.
The above text is self-sufficient. In the following, I make a case for the badness of the "consensus required" provision. People can skip it if they want. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 09:39, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
"Consensus required" is bad (optional) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
My argument hinges on two points. First, consensus on Wikipedia is mostly silent and implicit; indeed this is explicitly enshrined in policy. Second, any bureaucratic provision must prove its worth if it is to be imposed. I will now expand on each of the points.
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- TonyBallioni: Your suggestion seems workable (though see my comments below). It might be a good idea to look over all the pages (there are about 120 or so) to see who added the template -- if it's by Coffee or TonyBallioni, the "consensus required" provision can be kept. For instance, on Talk:Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States and Talk:Donna Brazile, the template seems to have been just added because it is the "default" template, and not because the page required special measures. I agree with NeilN that the template should be substituted, and not transcluded.
In general, my view is that the circumstances in May 2016 were very different from the circumstances now, so it would make sense to add the "consensus required" provision reactively, rather than proactively; that is: start with a minimum set and add pages to it as disruption or edit-warring occurs. These templates are "sticky": it's easy to slap it on, but hard to get rid of it. But I leave such considerations to the admins here; after all, they are the ones who have to enforce it. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 18:52, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- I am rather puzzled by various comments in the admin section. In particular, I am not sure what the extent of the disagreement is: it does not seem to me that the solution proposed by GoldenRing or TonyBallioni is all that different from the one proposed by Sandstein. The proposal I made explicitly differentiates between pages where the template was used as the "default" (I gave three examples already), and ones where the admins explicitly wanted the restriction there because they felt it necessary. The latter category, I aver, is likely to be a small(er) set. All I am asking for is to change the default template; admins are free to use their judgement to impose this restriction on individual pages. Kingsindian ♝ ♚
- Looking at the DS log, I see less than 40 pages which were explicitly placed under "consensus required" provision. It is absurd that more than 120 articles have the tag: this means that the vast majority of them were placed because the template was the "default" one. I already gave 3 explicit examples of the latter case. Besides, I simply don't understand Thryduulf and NeilN comments when they say that "This would affect the many articles where the admin has purposely added the "consensus required" restriction."; I explicitly address this point in my amendment. There is absolutely nothing stopping admins from adding the provision if they want it to. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 22:31, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
- I am rather puzzled by various comments in the admin section. In particular, I am not sure what the extent of the disagreement is: it does not seem to me that the solution proposed by GoldenRing or TonyBallioni is all that different from the one proposed by Sandstein. The proposal I made explicitly differentiates between pages where the template was used as the "default" (I gave three examples already), and ones where the admins explicitly wanted the restriction there because they felt it necessary. The latter category, I aver, is likely to be a small(er) set. All I am asking for is to change the default template; admins are free to use their judgement to impose this restriction on individual pages. Kingsindian ♝ ♚
@NeilN: I agree with you that your statement: There is absolutely nothing stopping the DS-levying admin from removing the provision if they want to.
is about as logical as my statement. However, in practice, your version doesn't work. Why?
- Most of the explicit DS log entries were made by Coffee, who is mostly inactive. His replacement, The Wordsmith, considers himself involved in the US politics area, so mostly doesn't get involved. The template is "sticky": it's easy to impose it, but very hard to get rid of it.
- I gave explicit evidence that most of the templates were added by people thinking that it was the "default" template. Sure, you can fault the admins adding the template, but may I remind you that one of them is an Arbitrator? If people like that get confused, maybe that is a sign that the bureaucracy has become too intricate for its own good.
- Here's the supreme irony: read Coffee's justification for why they wanted the restriction.
the idea for prohibiting "potentially contentious content without firm consensus" was to prevent a situation where an editor adds something, a content editor reverts it (using up their 1RR), and then the other editor uses their one revert to replace their edit...I would love, and am completely open to, finding a different way to word the restriction,
I come up with an amendment (a tried and tested one) to handle exactly the situation which is being described here, and for some reason, people find it unacceptable. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 07:19, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
Statement by The Wordsmith
This is in uncharted territory, given that I don't admin in Election 2016/Trump/far-right related articles and that one admin acting as a steward for another is also with little precedent. However, my own opinion, and one that I believe would accurately reflect Coffee's opinion, is that this Page-level sanction was never intended to be the default for APDS or one that could be accidentally applied. I do support vacating the provision from articles where it appears to have been accidentally applied, and forking the template so that the provision is an option, but the default template does not list it. I do not support vacating the CR sanction from pages where it has been deliberately applied, as that would be effectively overturning an Arbitration Enforcement action without a specific consensus about that particular sanction. The WordsmithTalk to me 14:05, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by MrX
This is a good proposal for any articles that are currently under, or will be placed under, editing restrictions requiring consensus for reinstating new material. It would prevent some of the usual WP:GAMING that allows users with throwaway accounts to gain undue advantage in content disputes.
I generally agree with Sandstein's comments, and add that the DS talk page templates and especially the in-your-face edit notices are very important for notifying editors that articles are subject to DS restrictions. Admins can use Template:Ds/editnotice and add language specific to a situation, rather than simply using the Coffee version without modification. - MrX 11:45, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- Pinging admins who have to placed American Politics articles under DS editing restrictions: Coffee, Doug Weller, BU Rob13, Ks0stm, Laser brain, DeltaQuad, Bishonen, and TonyBallioni.- MrX 11:54, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- Also: NeilN, Darkwind, and Seraphimblade.- MrX 12:22, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Volunteer Marek
@TonyBallioni: " I strongly object to their removal from the Roy Moore article " - Tony, my understanding is that you can still have that sanction on the article, you just have to add it separately rather than as "bundled" with the other sanctions (1RR etc). As Kingsindian says above: "The provision can be applied for individual pages at admin discretion, but is not part of the template." This isn't a proposal to get rid of the sanction. It's (very much) more limited than that. Volunteer Marek 15:44, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
@Tony - it's not a bad suggestion, it's just that Coffee sorta spammed that template to lots of articles and it was never clear if he really meant to add that restriction or was just slapping on the template. Also Sandstein is right - a GENERIC restriction template used to impose DISCRETIONARY sanctions is sort of an oxymoron. At the very least it violates the spirit and intent of how DS is suppose to work. Volunteer Marek 16:08, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
Man, this is like observing "institutional inertia" inert itself. "We shouldn't change it because then we'd have to change it". Volunteer Marek 16:33, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Sir Joseph
Can there be clarification on if the templates are authorized by an Arbcom ruling or they are just placed there because an admin wants it? If it's the former, then shouldn't this be a discussion for Arbcom, via an amendment process? I filed an amendment request a while back, they voted on it, and I changed the template to match the new ruling from Arbcom. If the templates are not backed by an Arbcom ruling, then that should be spelled out in the template. Right now the template points to Arbcom ruling to give them enforcement ability so the templates should match ruling of Arbcom and Arbcom is where and DS rules should go for change, not AE which is an executive action, not legislative. Sir Joseph (talk) 17:01, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by My very best wishes
I agree with Sandstein, Bishonen and Dennis Brown. According to template, All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion). This brings a number of difficult questions, even for experienced contributors. Was this particular edit a "revert"? Should someone count only an "exact" revert to a recent previous version, or one should also count edits that only partially undo something? And what does it mean "recent"? What if something "has been challenged by reversion" six months ago? And it is prone to gaming. Does this include reinstating content that was slightly different from the content challenged by reversion (two words were changed as during a recent AE case)?
This restriction led to countless conflicts, unnecessary discussions and divisive complaints on WP:AE. Does this restriction help to establish good relationships between users? No, exactly the opposite. Surprisingly, it does not help to establish any WP:Consensus because people start discussing procedures (was something a violation) instead of discussing the content. Personally, I think that was the worst editing restriction ever made in the project. My very best wishes (talk) 18:55, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- I think that creating any general templates for new types of restrictions (to be placed on a number of pages) is something very serious. This can and should be discussed on WP:AE to obtain WP:Consensus of uninvolved admins , as it actually happens during this discussion. Of course if the template will be approved by WP:Consensus here, then it will be used by individual admins for any pages of their choosing. But once again, this should be a discussion if the template would be helpful in general, not about any technical procedures or something else. My very best wishes (talk) 21:56, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- Most important, all editing restrictions must be very simple and understandable, and not only to admins, but to all other participants (they are generally issued not for admins, but for other participants). This is not the case here because even admins happened to disagree about the interpretation and applications of this restriction, and not only during this AE discussion, but also during a number of previous AE discussions. My very best wishes (talk) 15:15, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
- NeilN tells below: Admins can choose whatever template/text to add when applying editing restrictions. I am not sure that creating or modifying DS templates by individual admins to enforce discretionary sanctions has been authorized by Arbcom. Making new template is not just an ordinary sanction to be applied to an individual contributor or a page. This is something a lot more significant. Template:Ds (linked to Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions) only lists templates authorized by Arbcom. I think every new template for DS (or any significan modification of such template) should be either approved by Arbcom or by consensus of WP:AE admins. That one was not, and everyone can see what had happen. My very best wishes (talk) 14:36, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
- I am telling that DS templates are not just ordinary templates where common rules should apply, i.e. anyone can create or modify the template, and the template can be fixed later by consensus of all contributors (not necessarily admins). If this was just an ordinary template, then it could be simply nominated for deletion, and the votes of all contributors would be counted. My very best wishes (talk) 15:50, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 2)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Kingsindian
I oppose the amendment, the consensus required provision is good its enforce WP:ONUS and nullify edit wars.I think that consensus required should be a standard in every discretionary sanctions area--Shrike (talk) 16:14, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by Kingsindian
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I would grant the appeal, delete the template (and any corresponding editnotices), and thereby vacate all sanctions made in application of the template.
- Technically, the template as such is not an appealable sanction, because it's just, well, a template for a sanction. The template's application to a specific article by an administrator is the actual sanction that can be appealed. But we can treat this request as a class action appeal, as it were, of all such sanctions. I would appreciate it if editors who have followed this issue would ping, insofar as possible, all administrators who have used this template so that they can comment.
- In my view, templated article-level sanctions are problematic because they do not take into specific circumstances of the editing environment of the article at issue. WP:AC/DS expects sanctioning admins to
- "use their experience and judgment to balance the need to assume good faith, to avoid biting genuine newcomers and to allow responsible contributors maximum editing freedom with the need to keep edit-warring, battleground conduct, and disruptive behaviour to a minimum."
- This requirement to apply discretion is not compatible with a one-size-fits-all approach to sanctions, which a template embodies. In some cases, the editing environment may be so toxic that a restriction such as the "consensus required" provision may be needed, but in many cases individual blocks, bans or protections may be a more proportionate response. The widespread use of a template containing complicated rules such as a "consensus required" rules will cause many technical violations of discretionary sanctions to occur in the course of ordinary and, in and of itself, probably not sanction-worthy content disputes.
- It is best, therefore, to remove the template and leave admins free to individually (re-)apply appropriate sanctions to such articles as may (still) warrant it. Sandstein 11:02, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- Reject the template is not how discretionary sanctions are applied. It is a courtesy placed on the talk page. The actual sanctions are logged at the arbitration enforcement log. Additionally, users are alerted to them not by the talk page template, but by page notices. As the arbitration enforcement log shows, many administrators are willing to not impose these sanctions on articles if they don’t want to, so the complaint is really with the overwhelming majority of the articles sanctioned by Coffee. People like to bitch about these sanctions, but they work, and they are the main reason that the American politics field isn’t an even bigger mess than it is today. Sandstein, your suggested course of action ignores the fact that any validly applied sanctions were placed by an individual administrator on his own discretion (Coffee) and he has recently spoken out in favour of keeping the sanctions. If we vacate the “template sanctions”, I would personally go through the now sanctionless articles and likely apply the exact same sanctions to most of them myself immediately after the appeal was over because of how volitile this topic area is. There is no reason to waste time and increase the disruption on American politics articles. TonyBallioni (talk) 11:59, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- Also, I will note, again, that consensus required is already policy through WP:ONUS. The fact that what it takes to get people to actually follow that policy is a discretionary sanction is ridiculous but it is the case. Speaking to the sanctions I have placed, I strongly object to their removal from the Roy Moore article given that they weren’t placed mindlessly and that I think I typically have decent “discretion”. Finally, I’ll note that what we are being asked to do here is give people license to multi-party edit war on some of the most controversial and significant articles to the public. I cannot support that, and it is what this amendment would do.TonyBallioni (talk) 12:11, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- I could get behind the Wordsmith’s suggestion. This should be based upon the actual sanction listed at the arbitration enforcement log. If it doesn’t list 1RR/Consensus required, remove the template. Keep in place, however, the sanctions if they were intentionally applied by an admin, and make it clear any admin can still choose to apply this set of sanctions in individual cases if they wish. Basically, all of Coffee’s page level sanctions should be kept as should any others where this was the intent. TonyBallioni (talk) 14:12, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Volunteer Marek and Kingsindian: it is unclear to me whether this would affect pages already tagged with the template (most of them by Coffee, who did place it intentionally), or just be a change going forward, which is why I am concerned. If the concern is that this standard template is not what most administrators intend to impose, may I offer what I consider a simpler suggestion: we substitute the template on the pages where we know it was the intent of the admin to impose it (so basically anything imposed by Coffee or myself, and those where the AE log specifically notes "consensus required"). We then take the template to TfD, delete it, and instruct admins to use the standard discretionary sanctions talk page notice rather than this bundled one. I think this addresses some of @Sandstein and Bishonen:'s valid concerns while respecting that some administrators did use this template intentionally because they liked the bundle. If we are going to move away from this template, we might as well move away from any specific US politics DS template and require admins to think about what thye are imposing. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:55, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Volunteer Marek: I was referencing templates like the one I placed on Talk:Roy Moore sexual abuse allegations, which requires admins to type out the sanction they want to place, when I said "standard". I'm fine with not having a default template here, but I'm opposed to changing the current restrictions (criticism of Coffee being valid and all, but they do work well on a lot of these pages.) TonyBallioni (talk) 16:51, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- @GoldenRing: your solution is much more complex than simply substituting the existing template. I'd also be opposed to editing the existing template because it might bias people who would otherwise be placing the sanctions intentionally against placing them not knowing it had been changed. The best "split the baby" result here is to get rid of the current template and make admins apply sanctions by hand with Template:Ds/talk notice. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:22, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
- How is swapping one template for another more complex than substituting the template that's there? Especially when the time comes to remove it... GoldenRing (talk) 15:47, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
- Because it leaves in place the sanctions that were intentionally placed by an administrator and keeps the same format that people are used to seeing on the article, making confusion less likely. Also, you are operating under the assumption that the template will be removed, which is unclear here. Substitution also deals with NeilN's concerns that another admin can come along and edit the template and make it look like the sanctions were changed. I very strongly oppose your solution here because I think it complicates needlessly a situation that doesn't need anymore complication. TonyBallioni (talk) 16:30, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
- How is swapping one template for another more complex than substituting the template that's there? Especially when the time comes to remove it... GoldenRing (talk) 15:47, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
- Support amendment. I seem to keep saying this, but I just don't like to find myself on a list that seems to imply (?) that I have placed articles under the "consensus required" provision (MrX's list above). I did do that, once, then came to think the restriction was too difficult to understand, and too much of an invitation to "gotcha" filings, and removed it from the page where I had placed it. I won't place it again, in the form that it has now, and I agree with Kingsindian's amendment. Bishonen | talk 13:27, 30 November 2017 (UTC).
- As before, I don't have much opinion on this either way in terms of whether we use "consensus required" going forward. I do oppose deleting the template, since that just makes a lot of busy-work replacing it with appropriate talk page notices. If consensus required is removed, I'll replace it with the following sanction on all pages it's currently in place on: "Editors cannot restore edits which they have introduced within 24 hours if the edits have been reverted." ~ Rob13Talk 15:51, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose changing template if it means modifying existing restrictions. This would affect the many articles where the admin has purposely added the "consensus required" restriction. Admins did not have to use this template if they didn't want to impose all the restrictions it listed. Also, any templates like this really should be substituted rather than transcluded to prevent one admin making undiscussed changes that would affect hundreds of articles they had no interest in. Finally Sandstein's proposal of vacating all sanctions is a non-starter. He assumes admins take a "one-size-fits-all approach" when applying sanctions with no evidence to back it up. A list of cases where neutral parties would agree that an editor was unfairly sanctioned because of the restriction is needed at a minimum. --NeilN talk to me 16:18, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Kingsindian: There are a few places on Wikipedia which warn editors that they are responsible for tool/template usage. That is, you can't blame the tool/template if you're misusing it. Admins can choose whatever template/text to add when applying editing restrictions. The fact that some of them may not have read the template text as carefully as they should have does not mean extra work needs to be done by the admins that did. It's more appropriate to say in this case, "There is absolutely nothing stopping the DS-levying admin from removing the provision if they want to." --NeilN talk to me 22:58, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
- Grant appeal per Sandstein. He said it best, so I won't parrot him, but the "consensus" clause has caused problems and should not be automatically applied to all articles falling under this Arb ruling, if any at all. I'm not as big into repealing all previous sanctions, but I won't labor it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:59, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- I'm going to make the rare move of disagreeing with Dennis Brown here, and Sandstein in the process. It is clear that some admins have applied the "consensus required" restriction deliberately and oppose overturning it; and it is clear that many admins oppose overturning the restriction without putting something else similar in place (see the discussion here). Contra Sandstein, deleting the template does not vacate the restriction on all articles where it has been used; AE sanctions are valid when and only when logged at WP:DSLOG. There appear to be a largish number of articles where the template has been applied but the relevant sanction not logged; we should not construe the restriction as valid in those cases.Therefore, I think the right way forward is to edit the the current template to remove the consensus required restriction; to create a new and more obscure template that includes the consensus required restriction; and to apply that new template wherever the "consensus required" restriction has been validly logged. It'd be an hour or so of fairly dull work, I'm afraid, but that's what we have the mop for. I'm willing to do it. As far as I can see, doing so doesn't really require a formal consensus here, either, since it's not modifying any valid AE sanctions (though I'm not going to run off and do it now without further discussion). GoldenRing (talk) 10:20, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
- @Sir Joseph: The arbitration committee have authorised standard discretionary sanctions, not any specific 'consensus required' sanction. Individual admins have placed pages under a combination of 1RR and 'consensus required'. These restrictions are authorised by the committee's DS authorisation, but are only put in place by individual admins. They are only valid when logged at WP:DSLOG. A number of admins also seem to have imposed 1RR on pages and placed {{Post-1932 American politics discretionary sanctions page restrictions}}, not realising that it also mentions the 'consensus required' restriction. I would not construe this as imposing the restriction; sanctions must be logged at WP:DSLOG or they are not valid and the template is only a courtesy note (in this case an inaccurate one for many articles). GoldenRing (talk) 13:52, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
- Which is why the template should be changed, so there isn't a template stating there is a restriction when one is not in place, as that causes problem. This is separate from the idea that the sanction should or shouldn't be used. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:41, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree with Dennis 100% here, which is why I think if any changes are made, it should be in the direction of getting rid of the area-specific-notice templates, and making admins write out by hand what their actual intent is so we aren't confused when it comes here. TonyBallioni (talk) 16:32, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
- Which is why the template should be changed, so there isn't a template stating there is a restriction when one is not in place, as that causes problem. This is separate from the idea that the sanction should or shouldn't be used. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:41, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
- @Sir Joseph: The arbitration committee have authorised standard discretionary sanctions, not any specific 'consensus required' sanction. Individual admins have placed pages under a combination of 1RR and 'consensus required'. These restrictions are authorised by the committee's DS authorisation, but are only put in place by individual admins. They are only valid when logged at WP:DSLOG. A number of admins also seem to have imposed 1RR on pages and placed {{Post-1932 American politics discretionary sanctions page restrictions}}, not realising that it also mentions the 'consensus required' restriction. I would not construe this as imposing the restriction; sanctions must be logged at WP:DSLOG or they are not valid and the template is only a courtesy note (in this case an inaccurate one for many articles). GoldenRing (talk) 13:52, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
- Decline appeal. I agree with GoldenRing, there appear to be instances where the "consensus required" provision was deliberately and intentionally applied and instances where it wasn't. Once the two versions are in place, I would be open to hearing appeals regarding the "consensus required" provision in individual cases where someone feels it isn't working, but not mass removal. I would also not object to an alternative being proposed to be introduced as a third option, and if that happens discussion of individually converting individual applications between "consensus required" and the new provision would be fine, but again not indiscriminately. Thryduulf (talk) 10:47, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
- @Kingsindian: There are roughly four options here: (1) remove the "consensus required" provision completely, (2) remove the "consensus required" provision but allow it to be (re-)added to articles where it is desired (as an option, not as the default), (3) change the "consensus required" provision from the default to the option for future applications and allow it to be removed from existing articles where it is not desired. (4) Leave the "consensus required" provision as the default or only option. I favour option 3, my understanding is that you prefer option 2. Creating an alternative provision has also been suggested but this is possible whichever of the above options is chosen. Thryduulf (talk) 00:10, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with the options, and could live with 3, although I also prefer 2. The primary point is removing it from the template so it isn't automatically stated that the article is under "consensus required", and allow the admin to add that for the instances where it is needed, or better yet, don't add it initially but only after the article proves that is required. I think the sanction is problematic under the best of circumstances, and should be used sparingly and intentionally, not automatically, if at all. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 01:33, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
- I favour option 4 personally, 1RR is meaningless without "consensus required", and if I place 1RR on any article in the future it will come with it. That being said, I don't strongly oppose option 3 on a case by case basis. The reason I think we should go ahead and close this appeal is that what we're essentially talking about here are changes to the template, and not to the sanctions themselves, which can be appealed on an individual basis. Template changes can be discussed on the template talk page, and are not actually an arbitration enforcement action since the actual sanctions are noted at the log. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:14, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with the options, and could live with 3, although I also prefer 2. The primary point is removing it from the template so it isn't automatically stated that the article is under "consensus required", and allow the admin to add that for the instances where it is needed, or better yet, don't add it initially but only after the article proves that is required. I think the sanction is problematic under the best of circumstances, and should be used sparingly and intentionally, not automatically, if at all. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 01:33, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
- @Kingsindian: There are roughly four options here: (1) remove the "consensus required" provision completely, (2) remove the "consensus required" provision but allow it to be (re-)added to articles where it is desired (as an option, not as the default), (3) change the "consensus required" provision from the default to the option for future applications and allow it to be removed from existing articles where it is not desired. (4) Leave the "consensus required" provision as the default or only option. I favour option 3, my understanding is that you prefer option 2. Creating an alternative provision has also been suggested but this is possible whichever of the above options is chosen. Thryduulf (talk) 00:10, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
- May I suggest that the next passing admin close this as no consensus to grant the appeal unless anyone has any objections. I don't think there is any chance of existing sanctions being altered here, and everything else can be discussed on the template's talk page. TonyBallioni (talk) 14:11, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
- There's a solution no-one has proposed yet, which is to add parameters to the template allowing an admin to include/exclude certain sanctions. For instance, if an admin sets
|consensus-required=no
, then the template doesn't include consensus required. We could then have a real discussion on what should be the defaults (noting that it would take some bot work to fix existing notices if we want to change the default from what it currently is). This is probably the conversation we should be having, given that there's no apparent consensus to reverse existing sanctions en masse. I'm not sure whether AE or another venue would be best for that discussion. ~ Rob13Talk 15:56, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- That is a reasonable idea. I would suggest that "no" be the default answer for all options, so admin must intentionally pick which to add. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:39, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
James J. Lambden
Blocked 48 hours for TBAN violation. GoldenRing (talk) 10:36, 1 December 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning James J. Lambden
Not applicable; relates to existing topic ban.
I noted the violation and asked the user to self-revert the violation; they responded by reverting my notification and calling it "bullying". Given that they won't self-revert, this is the unfortunately necessary option. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:25, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
Discussion concerning James J. LambdenStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by James J. LambdenIt is waste of time to file a complaint for a talk page edit which I suggested be discussed with the administrator who imposed the topic ban. My comment had nothing to do with Trump and the subject's association with Trump is disputed. According to our article "mentions of Trump have mostly been scrubbed from [the group's] rhetoric." If I am to interpret this topic ban as applying to every article that mentions Trump it is effectively a ban on most AP2 articles. As that was not the ban imposed it is not reasonable to assume it was the intention. Had a non-partisan editor or administrator suggested I remove the comment I would have. In fact earlier today I unintentionally violated the topic ban, which I caught and reverted, asking the administrator who imposed the ban for clarification precisely to avoid these issues. James J. Lambden (talk) 05:42, 1 December 2017 (UTC) @Aquillion: It is disputed. Again from our article "mentions of Trump have mostly been scrubbed from [the group's] rhetoric." My interest is because they are a pro-speech group. For the same reason I have edited The Evergreen State College, 2017 Berkeley protests, Google's Ideological Echo Chamber, BAMN and Gab (social network). @BMK: Re: "if the edit were a violation" If I say "no" someone else says "yes" who is right? If the "yes" came from an admin or even a disinterested editor I would have accepted it. The question is whether it was reasonable for me to assume the scope includes this article given the specificity of the ban (Trump) and the insignificant difference in effect between that ban and an AP2 ban if it is interpreted this broadly. @Masem: I do not see how in a sanction here would be preventative rather than punitive. I attempted to clarify the scope of the topic ban with GoldenRing hours before that edit to determine whether the scope should be interpreted so broadly. Whatever the decision I would have respected it. A simple clarification from GoldenRing will be 100% "preventative." James J. Lambden (talk) 07:02, 1 December 2017 (UTC) Statement by uninvolved Beyond My KenThree (obvious) points:
Statement by AquillionJust as a note, the group's association with Trump is not disputed. Just looking at the discussion that Lambden linked above makes that obvious; the dispute was not over whether the group's primary activity was pro-Trump rallies (all versions described their pro-Trump position prominently within the first or second sentence) - the dispute was over whether they stood for anything else at all. But organizing pro-Trump rallies is their primary activity (and this has been prominent in every stable version of the lead, as well as detailed in the article itself); James J. Lambden knows this, having edited the article for a while. I think, given the fact that James J. Lambden's user page consists (as of this writing) solely of a giant picture of Trump, it is reasonable to conclude that the fact that the group primarily organizes pro-Trump rallies is his main reason for editing the page. --Aquillion (talk) 06:37, 1 December 2017 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning James J. Lambden
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DHeyward
DHeyward is topic banned for 1 month from articles about living and recently deceased American politicians, and related topics, broadly construed. TonyBallioni (talk) 00:53, 2 December 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning DHeyward
The article is under a 1RR restriction. DHeyward made FOUR reverts in less than 24 hours.
1. Note that initially I thought DHeyward only violated 1RR because he just popped up on my watchlist twice in quick succession. Feeling nice and assuming good faith I asked him to self-revert [26]. Only then did I actually look at the history and realized that he's pretty much started a full out edit war by reverting FOUR times on a ONE revert restricted article. In response to my courtesy request for self-revert (which was not required on my part) Dheyward decided to get cute. He did revert but... to his initial preferred version [27]. Basically he repeated his very first revert [28], completely removing the pertinent info in the article. Note that even if there was some doubt about consensus for the material on Nov 30 10:20 (time of first revert), there was no such doubt by Dec 1, 4:52, with User:MelanieN and User:Objective3000 who were initially hesitant to include, changing their minds by this point. This phony self-revert looks like an attempt at WP:GAMEing. I repeated my request pointing out nature of his fake self-revert [29] but he has ignored it. 2. The nature of the reverts itself raises serious concerns. First, there's the removal of well sourced information. Worse however, is the fact that when DHeyward realized consensus was against him and he couldn't remove the pertinent paragraph he purposefully rewrote the text to misrepresent both sources and the nature of the situation overall. In particular the text is about the fact that a woman, most likely associated with the organization Project Veritas, came to the Washington Post with a phony story about how Roy Moore got her pregnant. But the whole thing was a setup and an attempt to trick WaPo into publishing something false. Of course WaPo smelled something fishy, investigated, and exposed the scheme. This is what happened and what reliable sources happened. So how did DHeyward write it up? Well as can be seen he wrote it to make it seem like this was "just another false allegation against Roy Moore". He did this by removing or minimizing the pertinent context of the whole thing being a set up. He basically portrayed it as something opposite of what actually happened. This is a clear case of WP:AGENDA editing and done pretty deceptively at that. This isn't an isolated instance of such behavior; the same was noted just few days ago in the WP:AE request above concerning User:Anythingyouwant, by User:Drmies - [30], [31] Since the nature of the violation is quite egregious (4 reverts on 1RR article, sneaky manipulation) a broad topic ban is in order. @Masem - the "agenda" charge isn't really about Roy Moore though. It's about how DHeyward rewrote "Project Veritas tried to trick Washington Post into publishing a false story" as "a woman made false accusations against Roy Moore". I mean, yeah, she did. But she didn't do it to hurt Moore, she did it to try and discredit the women who have come out with their stories. Since these women are also "living people" in this instance the BLP (aside from the AGENDA misrepresentation) would apply the other way. Volunteer Marek 19:15, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
Discussion concerning DHeywardStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by DHeywardI apologize for edit warring. That was not necessary. I will raise some issues though. First, Volunteer Marek I believe is under a topic ban for articles related to Donald Trump. Trump is listed in the lead of the article in question. Trump has also stated that he believes Moore and not the women who have made complaints. This article is certainly within the broadly construed meaning of his topic ban and had he adhered to his topic ban, the collegial atmosphere of continuous editing editing would have continued just like this edit shows[33]. Second, there are not four reverts as Volunter Marek has exagerated. The links listed show the original rewrite (1:18 December 1) which is not a revert. The third on his list ([34]) was removing the "raped" allegation that VM pointed out in his edit. There are 2 reverts which is a violation of 1RR. The last revert was to a condition prior the version VM prefers. There was no way to satisfy both 1RR and CONSENSUS. VM pretends his version has consensus when in fact the only discussion is about the event. MrX who commented below has also violated 1RR with these edits. For a statement that he says has strong consensus to add, no other editors seemed compelled to do it and he had to violate 1RR to get it. Volunteer Marek provides a random collection of links implying there are related blocks that are relevant. None of those links are related to AP2. It was very deceitful to list any of those links as relevant here. He is mud slinging in an attempt at overreach. As for AGENDA, just review my edit. I described the false accusation as it relates to Roy Moore and sexual abuse allegations. That is essentially the topic of the article (see article Title). I did not remove any any relevant material and also argued that its nature makes it a poor fit here. Volunteer Mareks edit comment is very telling. [35]. WM states I apologize for edit warring. I'm don't believe a block is necessary and certainly not any AE sanction. If a sanction is deemed necessary then VM should be sanctioned for violating his Trump Topic ban levied only a few weeks ago and violating the consensus requirement as well as pushing unrelated an unsubstantiated claims into an article with sensitive BLP concerns. MrX also violated 1RR as shown above. I'd prefer just not to have any action against anyone. --DHeyward (talk) 23:59, 1 December 2017 (UTC) TonyBallioni @Volunteer Marek states: Statement by MrXI concur with Volunteer Marek's comments. The first diff is an attempt by DHeyward to defy firm consensus, and the first revert of this edit made two days earlier. This edit is an unambiguous and brazen violation of the 1RR restriction, in addition to being a second violation of WP:CONSENSUS. The other edits are arguably reverts and POV pushing. At the very least, they are aggravating actions by this editor indicating that he is not suited to edit these types of articles.- MrX 15:03, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
Statement by MONGOMeh...I see no talk page consensus for the addition and possible BLP violation restored by MrX here after DHeyward was seemingly boxed in. There is a complete lack of dispassionate editing here by MrX and others....but when one spends all their time working on politically charged topics, how can we ever believe that their goals are a neutral treatise? I find the plausibility of such to be completely unrealistic and therefore find condemnations of others they disagree with to be laughable.--MONGO 19:46, 1 December 2017 (UTC) Statement by MastCellThis is an obvious 1RR violation, documented by diffs, with no relevant exemptions. It should be dealt with expeditiously. The idea behind discretionary sanctions is to make it easier and more efficient to deal with disruptive editing, so it's ironic and counterproductive when these sorts of obvious, straightforward cases become needlessly complicated as a result of the WP:AE mechanism. If an admin saw this case at WP:ANEW, they'd block and move on. I'm not clear why we allow AE to hinder the speedy resolution of basic conduct issues on the articles that need it most. The 1RR violation is compounded by the "self-revert", which was nothing of the sort; it was dishonest gamesmanship, as pointed out above. I think a standard block for edit-warring would be appropriate, and would personally advocate a topic ban (at least a time-limited one) given the bad faith described above. (I'm commenting here as an editor, not as an admin, because I have recently been involved in a discussion with DHeyward on WP:RS/N about sourcing questions on the Moore article. While I'm not convinced that noticeboard input necessarily creates "involvement", I'm commenting here, rather than below, to avoid sidetracking this clear-cut case any further). MastCell Talk 22:40, 1 December 2017 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning DHeyward
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Archwayh
Archwayh is blocked for a month for violating their topic ban. Sandstein 19:25, 1 December 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Archwayh
Topic banned from "all edits about, and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people".
All diffs (or links to talk pages) listed below demonstrate that Archwayh has violated their topic ban.
On May 25, 2017, Archwayh was topic banned for one month. On June 2, 2017, the topic ban was extended to six months. Archwayh has said that they didn't know they were topic banned as they hadn't read their user talk page.[36] I actually find the explanation plausible: this explains why Archwayh continued to mark all their edits as minor even after they were told to stop it. On June 16, 2017, Archwayh asks Lord Roem whether talk pages fall within the topic ban.[37] Inbetween those edits Archwayh edits Talk:Donald Trump (example). Lord Roem explains that talk pages are included in the topic ban.[38] On June 29, 2017, Archwayh opens a discussion related to American politics with JFG.[39] When JFG informs Archwayh that they may be violating their topic ban, they claim that the topic ban "has nothing to do w/ page talk".[40] On October 10 and October 26 they make edits which to me appear to be perfectly fine, except that the edit summary refers to American politics. Rest of the evidence should speak for itself (edits about post-1932 politics of the United States, edits to pages about US politics, or closely related people). It seems obvious that Archwayh doesn't understand what they were topic banned from (and why), and I'm not convinced they will. Politrukki (talk) 17:29, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Archwayh&diff=813082793&oldid=803507767 Discussion concerning ArchwayhStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by ArchwayhI have not made any edit directly related to politics, or thous as such that could be debated as political-oriented & then be removed. And re: Bloomberg, that was a FIX to an error that should be applauded. That wasn't a political-motivated change or ad, but a FIX. The minor edit on Bush was related to small grimmer fix -- not some controversial or political-oriented one. If I didn't understand these term, then I obviously apologize. But, inn essence, this is a complete lie by a user who is conducting a political witch hunt against me, bc he doesn't like my views (and for COL, I am a moderate centrist & not some ideologue who pushed agenda in Wiki. All of these attacks against me were * being perused by this obsessed user, who's fixated on me for some reason. To contrast, he he is a right-wing ideologue who supports Ted Cruz, from what I know). If he won't stop, I plan to peruse other options to stop him from smearing me. I am planning to file a complaint about his alleged corrupt behavior later on. Edits that have been on some figures that may be political aren't related directly to politics, and they were commonly agreed or small fixes. Further, most edits were on user PAGES, and didn't even influenced Wikipedia. This user, that continues this obsessive witch hint, will hear from me. If I edited something that doesn't directly relates to politics, but could be perceived as such -- then I am obviously sorry. But I didn't violate anything at least knowingly, & my small number of edits were small, non-political & commonly agreed. That's my statement Archway (talk) 17:37, 1 December 2017 (UTC) Statement by JFGI would tend to be lenient about occasional chit-chat about politics on a user talk page, as happened on mine a few months ago. However we cannot accept blatant requests for other people to edit by proxy on behalf of the TBANned editor. Either this is bad faith or gross incompetence. In both cases, a harsher sanction is warranted, perhaps a 6-month block with the usual avenues to get unblocked and return to collegial editing within the project's rules. — JFG talk 18:19, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
Statement by (username)Result concerning Archwayh
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Nick.8.payne
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Nick.8.payne
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Tgeorgescu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 19:54, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Nick.8.payne (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Waldorf education#Amendments by motion:
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- [41] 2 December 2017 newbie mistake
- [42] 3 December 2017 after being warned of discretionary sanctions and advised against performing WP:OR
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on [43] 2 December 2017.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
@Sandstein and SoWhy: Well, I agree with your decision. Could someone show the basics of WP:PAGs to this newbie (more than I did)? Tgeorgescu (talk) 16:14, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Nick.8.payne
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Nick.8.payne
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Nick.8.payne
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I would take no action. Yes, this looks like WP:OR, but it is still a question of content, not conduct. OR becomes a conduct problem only if it is repeated and egregious. So far nobody has taken the time to explain WP:OR to this new editor. Sandstein 21:08, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
- What Sandstein said, too soon. The reporting user only posted an explanation of the rules to the new user's talk page after their last edit and after reporting them here. New user has not edited since, so I see no evidence that they are deliberately ignoring the advice they were given. Regards SoWhy 16:00, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
Atsme
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Atsme
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 21:27, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Atsme (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2 : [45]. Discretionary sanctions, including a 1RR restriction and the "consensus required" provision added to the article on 2:25 November 16 2017 [46] by User:TonyBallioni.
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- Dec 4 17:22 Adding material to article and...
- Dec 4 17:49 re-adding it via revert without bothering to get consensus after it has been challanged.
Personal attacks and clear WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude
- [47] "Put your big girl/boy panties on and stop the whining. I'm weary of your POV reverts and UNDUE weight you defend in various articles. It is what it is, and attempts to deny your tendentious editing is laughable"'
- [48]
Note that the personal attacks and the practice of discussing other editors without informing them has been noted by other users [49] [50]
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
Not sure. Too busy to check right now.
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
Oh boy. The user has participated in recent threads concerning the sanction. For example [51]. Indeed, the editor is currently agitating one of the admins active on this page [52] over this very sanction.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
In addition to a straight up violation of the discretionary sanctions, the user also makes frequent personal attacks and WP:ASPERSIONS against others, as evidenced on User:GoldenRing's talk page. For example, referring to others as "POV warriors". According to them anyone who disagrees with them is a "POV warrior". This is coupled with insistence on using non-reliable, and fringe sources, including conspiracy and hoax sites while at the same time arguing that standard, reliable, mainstream sources are "fringe", should not be trusted and used. Basically they got it exactly backwards. This kind of WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude, especially the repeated insults and name calling has made it impossible to work collaboratively with Atsme, which is why most editors have taken to just ignoring them on the talk page.
I am NOT under any TB from the Roy Moore article and I did NOT make a "revert while under TB". Atsme knows this because they have participated in recent discussions where this was brought up. Even if Atsme did not know this for sure, the proper thing to do would've been to ask or inquire, rather than edit war and violate DS by reverting. The excuse offered below is lame and false. Volunteer Marek 21:51, 4 December 2017 (UTC) (GoldenRing has explicitly stated, in the same place where Atsme is commenting: " I wouldn't consider Roy Moore covered by it (the topic ban - VM)"
@Masem: [53] this is NOT - by any stretch - a violation of the Donald Trump topic ban (commenting on DT per BANEX here). The admin placing the restriction explicitly stated that edits about Roy Moore which are not explicit about Trump are not covered. Neither is the DT topic ban "broadly construed" and the diff you provide does NOT show that (in fact the diff you provide - [54] - is about an appeal of an IBAN... are you confused?). Please strike your false statements. And look, this is a straight up violation of a discretionary sanction by Atsme. A discretionary sanction that Atsme was very well aware of. A discretionary sanction that Atsme tried to get OTHER editors sanctioned under. Yet violated themselves. This is a pretty clear cut case, exactly the same as the one which recently other editors have been sanctioned under. "Friendship" or no, editors need to be treated fairly and equally. Volunteer Marek 23:00, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
Atsme, you're just making excuses and trying to deflect from the fact you violated a discretionary sanction. That's it. Volunteer Marek 23:47, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
@Lankiveil: (and others) - one more time. The topic ban on Trump was NOT "broadly construed". It wasn't closed as such. It wasn't logged as such. The notification didn't say it was. The admin who imposed it himself said that it DID NOT apply to Roy Moore. The issue was raised previously (once or twice) and both times relevant administrators stated that Roy Moore was NOT covered by the ban. There's no way you make this out to be a topic ban violation. Atsme knows all this. Atsme has participated in these discussions. Atsme is just trying to change the topic from their own violation of DS, personal attacks, and battleground behavior, and you're letting her WP:GAME it. Please focus on the issue at hand. Thanks. Volunteer Marek 01:35, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
@Masem: Here is User:GoldenRing who is the one who imposed the sanction, quote: "The ban from everything Trump-related isn't intended to be a ban from all current US politics, so I wouldn't consider Roy Moore covered by it (so long as the edits aren't Trump-related)". Also, the topic ban is NOT "broadly construed". Volunteer Marek 01:39, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Atsme
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Atsme
Volunteer Marek reverted my edit while he was subject of an AE TB by GoldenRing. Another editor was blocked for violating the TB broadly construed. I believed that editors who are under an active TB are not allowed to revert edits on topics for which they are topic banned. See this discussion which includes the violative edits (and diffs) of VM while under the TB - clearly involving a Trump related article considering the upcoming election as a candidate who supports Trump and was recently endorsed by Trump - broadly construed. I requested clarification from GoldenRing, and since there is such a gray area, the ambiguities need to be clarified or WP will end-up with far fewer active editors. Also, there is not a notice of the consensus sanction in the edit view which creates a major issue - it's on the TP which is relatively obscure from editors who are busy building an encyclopedia, and who are not interested in playing politics. I'm popping some popcorn and will quietly watch the pile on. Atsme📞📧 21:38, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- The article in question is Roy Moore sexual abuse allegations - and for the life of me, I can't figure out how anyone can say it is not related to Trump broadly
confusedconstrued based on this section which states, "The White House said that President Donald Trump "believes that these allegations are very troubling" and that Moore should drop out of the race if they are true." Trump's position changed and he endorsed Moore. How anyone can say that article is not Trump related is beyond me. If my common sense antenna are that far off base, then don't worry about imposing a block or whatever else against me while letting VM walk - I will relent to this insanity on my own. Atsme📞📧 23:09, 4 December 2017 (UTC)- In response to My very best wishes - no, and I'm not going to waste my time or the valuable time of our admins by listing all the diffs that support my reasons. I've provided what I feel is indisputabe evidence. It's Happy Hour, so please excuse me while I move on to happier places where I'd much rather be at this time of the day.
Atsme📞📧 23:26, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- Oh, Jiminy Cricket - Kingofaces has shown ill-will toward me for years and won't be happy until he gets his thousand pounds of flesh. Sad. To this day, he continues to pounce on anything that gives him a platform to express his discontent - the most recent being the incredible disruption he caused per WP:BLPCOI over a biography I created back in October. His behavior was noted here by SlimVirgin. I'm not about to provide all the diffs to counter his comments.
- Re: Lankiveil's interpretation of my comment to VM, please allow me to pose a simple question to all who want to judge me: what would you do if you were relentlessly confronted by an editor who consistently reverted nearly every single edit you made primarily because it differed from their POV, and then harassed you with impolite comments whenever the opportunity arose, spoke to you in a condescending manner even after you attempted to reach out with an olive branch as I tried to do repeatedly? Can we please stay on topic for the reason we are here? Atsme📞📧 02:04, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
- So, here come the pile-ons as predicted - I could've named the editors one by one and they did not disappoint. Oh, well...back on point - GoldenRing issued the following AE warning: James J. Lambden, TheTimesAreAChanging, Volunteer Marek and SPECIFICO who are warned to edit collegially and assume good faith. The bad faith VM and SPECIFICO have shown since that warning goes beyond the pale. Then we have the block by Golden Ring against James J. Lambden for violating his Trump TB over this edit to Talk:Patriot Prayer. While the block created a bit of confusion, I can't fault GoldenRing for doing what he believed was the right thing to do. Now Drmies is here defending VM with the argument: "Oh, I disagree that Moore falls under any Trump-ban construction". Drmies, with all due respect, where were you and all the others who are here now attempting to defend VM against a revert I made in GF thinking he was TB from Trump broadly construed when the first Trump-ban construction was on the auction block, and James J. Lambden came through the sale ring? Pause to draw a deep breath after that long-winded text. It appears to me that the precedent was established with this edit to a TP, and resulted in a 48 hr. block for James J. Lambden. If a TP edit resulted in a block for that editor, what makes VM immune for his TWO blatantly obvious Trump-related edits broadly construed - not counting the numerous others he made at the Moore AfD? Moore and Trump are inseparable - Trump supports Moore, is campaigning for Moore, and Moore talks about Trump and is following Trump's agenda. Some are foolish enough to believe Trump may help the guy get elected, but that's neither here nor there. Forget the politics - we're talking WP TOPIC BANS. GoldenRing and Masem have both faithfully executed their duties as admins, and have clearly maintained NPOV and followed WP:PAGs without any apparent COI, yet
theyMasem is being asked to recuse themselves from this case. What?!! I can't even begin to describe my dismay.But I have to follow-up with the COI aspect and the unwarranted recuse requests, and ask if you have any COI regarding candidate Roy Moore who is running for the Alabama State Senate, and if you approve of VM's edits?struck that stupid question and apologize - I deplore such petty antics and should've picked a better scenario to demonstrate how it makes one feel to be accused when innocent.04:02, 5 December 2017 (UTC) I have nothing to hide - I'm not voting in that election, I'm a Texas/Bonaire resident who suffers from voter identity disorder and my butt cheeks hurt from sitting on the fence for as long as I can remember (long term being far greater than short term but I can still smell peanut butter). Ok, so times like these are what beckons for the most appropriate close, so I'll end with the words of John Wooden, "Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are." Atsme📞📧 03:50, 5 December 2017 (UTC)- Psst, Fyddlestix - you really shouldn't be broadcasting your misinterpretation of policy.
Atsme📞📧 04:11, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
- Psst, Fyddlestix - you really shouldn't be broadcasting your misinterpretation of policy.
- So, here come the pile-ons as predicted - I could've named the editors one by one and they did not disappoint. Oh, well...back on point - GoldenRing issued the following AE warning: James J. Lambden, TheTimesAreAChanging, Volunteer Marek and SPECIFICO who are warned to edit collegially and assume good faith. The bad faith VM and SPECIFICO have shown since that warning goes beyond the pale. Then we have the block by Golden Ring against James J. Lambden for violating his Trump TB over this edit to Talk:Patriot Prayer. While the block created a bit of confusion, I can't fault GoldenRing for doing what he believed was the right thing to do. Now Drmies is here defending VM with the argument: "Oh, I disagree that Moore falls under any Trump-ban construction". Drmies, with all due respect, where were you and all the others who are here now attempting to defend VM against a revert I made in GF thinking he was TB from Trump broadly construed when the first Trump-ban construction was on the auction block, and James J. Lambden came through the sale ring? Pause to draw a deep breath after that long-winded text. It appears to me that the precedent was established with this edit to a TP, and resulted in a 48 hr. block for James J. Lambden. If a TP edit resulted in a block for that editor, what makes VM immune for his TWO blatantly obvious Trump-related edits broadly construed - not counting the numerous others he made at the Moore AfD? Moore and Trump are inseparable - Trump supports Moore, is campaigning for Moore, and Moore talks about Trump and is following Trump's agenda. Some are foolish enough to believe Trump may help the guy get elected, but that's neither here nor there. Forget the politics - we're talking WP TOPIC BANS. GoldenRing and Masem have both faithfully executed their duties as admins, and have clearly maintained NPOV and followed WP:PAGs without any apparent COI, yet
- In response to My very best wishes - no, and I'm not going to waste my time or the valuable time of our admins by listing all the diffs that support my reasons. I've provided what I feel is indisputabe evidence. It's Happy Hour, so please excuse me while I move on to happier places where I'd much rather be at this time of the day.
Statement by power~enwiki
I don't feel that Roy Moore or Roy Moore sexual abuse allegations should be covered by a Donald Trump TBAN. power~enwiki (π, ν) 22:25, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- There's an obvious violation of "Consensus required" with [55]. I don't think the "personal attacks" rise to the level of being actionable. In a very similar recent case, Anythingyouwant was
placed on 0RR for 1 month on Roy Moore and any topic related to the United States Senate special election in Alabama, 2017, broadly construed
. power~enwiki (π, ν) 00:07, 5 December 2017 (UTC)- I think Atsme wants to play the martyr and get blocked, based on her latest statement. The victim act is excessive, and the claim that
Moore and Trump are inseparable
is absurd. power~enwiki (π, ν) 04:08, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
- I think Atsme wants to play the martyr and get blocked, based on her latest statement. The victim act is excessive, and the claim that
Statement by My very best wishes
I do not see how anyone can consider this edit as a topic ban violation with regard to D. Trump. The edit is about an opinion poll with regard to another politician. Of course that another politician was endorsed by D. Trump, and perhaps his election will help D. Trump. However, same can be said about almost any other significant politician in the US, whose elections, comments or whatever might affect the president. Telling this is covered by the topic ban is beyond belief. My very best wishes (talk) 22:43, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- @Atsme [56]. D. Trump was telling a lot of things about a lot of politicians. That does not make editing pages about these politicians automatically a topic ban violation. If you started a thread about your concerns on article talk page or on a talk page of the user who you think made the topic ban violation, we would not be here. Would not you agree? My very best wishes (talk) 23:17, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- @Atsme. My questions were not about diffs or your reasons, but about your ability to edit high profile subjects covered by DS. This requires discipline, self-criticism, respecting the rules, and most important, the ability to discuss contentious matters with others. My very best wishes (talk) 23:41, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- @Atsme. You tell: Kingofaces has shown ill-will toward me for years and won't be happy until he gets his thousand pounds of flesh. Can you please support this statement with diffs? You also tell: what would you do if you were relentlessly confronted by an editor who consistently reverted nearly every single edit you made primarily because it differed from their POV, and then harassed you with impolite comments. Who are you talking about? Who harassed you? Can you please support this statement by diffs? And if you can not support these statements by diffs, can you please strike through your statements and apologize? My very best wishes (talk) 03:18, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Objective3000
With a keg of dots and a predilection of connecting them, I suppose you can consider “broadly construed” as meaning anything. I think considering VM’s revert within the scope of the TBan is a bridge too far. I do think that the reinstatement by Atsme after 23 minutes clearly violated 1RR as stipulated on the article talk. Now, Atsme claims to have not seen the consensus clause of the DS warning. I accept that and merely reverted what I believed to be a DS violation with a polite note in the edit summary as opposed to taking it to AE or article talk. What bothers me is that Atsme then went to an admin talk and made repeated accusations against other editors without notifying them. What’s the point of such? Atsme’s actions simply don’t appear to be of a collaborative nature. O3000 (talk) 23:50, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- Anythingyouwant. I think you're getting into a content discussion which is probably not under discussion here. Besides, I don't think a possible oblique characterization of the people of Alabama could be considered a BLP issue. O3000 (talk) 02:57, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Statement by involved editor MelanieN
Two points. First, I find it hard to believe that a topic ban from Trump-related articles, even broadly construed, can be considered to cover an edit about an opinion poll regarding a candidate for Senate. Was VM's topic ban actually intended to cover everything to do with current politics? Or maybe everything to do with Republican politics? Or everything and everyone on which Trump has ever expressed an opinion? If so, the decision should have said so - but the admin who imposed the ban does not interpret it that way.[57] Second, all of the discussion so far has been about VM and whether he violated his topic ban. Will there be any discussion about the subject of this report, Atsme - specifically the restoration of challenged material immediately after it had been challenged? I know that it is permitted, in cases of vandalism and BLP violations, to ignore the DS rules about reverts and restoration; is there also an exemption for cases in which a party believes the other party to be topic banned? In other words, if the TBAN actually did apply to VM, would that make it OK for Atsme to revert his challenge? Also, will there be any discussion about the personal attacks and battleground mentality cited here? (Disclaimer: I am WP:INVOLVED at the Roy Moore article, although I had nothing to do with the edits cited here or the discussion about them.) --MelanieN (talk) 00:01, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
- I am so used to seeing everything be "broadly construed', and I guess everyone else is since they keep saying it, that I was surprised to see VM's insistence that that phrase wasn't applied to his topic ban. But it wasn't. From the log: "James J. Lambden and Volunteer Marek are banned from all articles and edits related to Donald Trump for one month. GoldenRing (talk) 10:43, 15 November 2017 (UTC)"[58] From his talk page notice: "You are banned from all edits and articles related to Donald Trump for one month. This is subject to the usual exceptions."[59] --MelanieN (talk) 02:26, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
- User:Anythingyouwant, I don't understand your point. Are you saying we should include this to show that Republicans aren't disregarding or excusing the allegations, they are disbelieving them? Or are you saying we shouldn't, because including it would imply that Republicans are blind sheep believing whatever Moore says? It really isn't clear whether you are saying the sentence should be in the article, or shouldn't be in the article. Or are you trying to say that adding it, or removing it, is justified by BLP? I really don't think the BLP restrictions apply to potential/possible inferences about large groups of unnamed people. The restrictions are about BIOGRAPHICAL information, as the acronym says. --MelanieN (talk) 03:38, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
- User:Atsme Did I miss something? Where was GoldenRing asked to recuse himself? --MelanieN (talk) 04:07, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
- User:Anythingyouwant, I don't understand your point. Are you saying we should include this to show that Republicans aren't disregarding or excusing the allegations, they are disbelieving them? Or are you saying we shouldn't, because including it would imply that Republicans are blind sheep believing whatever Moore says? It really isn't clear whether you are saying the sentence should be in the article, or shouldn't be in the article. Or are you trying to say that adding it, or removing it, is justified by BLP? I really don't think the BLP restrictions apply to potential/possible inferences about large groups of unnamed people. The restrictions are about BIOGRAPHICAL information, as the acronym says. --MelanieN (talk) 03:38, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Montanabw
I concur with the above commenters who don't think the "personal attacks" rise to the level of being actionable. VM is unhappy with Atsme, oh well. This is a controversial current event topic and emotions run high. There were not egregious policy violations here, so move on. On the other side, there is a large gray area about the details of VM's TBAN as well as the interpretation of DS as applied to this article, but he probably would benefit from clarification on that point. The appropriate response here is to explain equally to both parties what does and does not fit existing restrictions and how both parties are expected to proceed from here forward on this article and related topics. Then drop the stick. Montanabw(talk) 00:25, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Kingofaces43
I don't keep up with politics topics on Wikipedia, so I'll defer to others with my familiarity on Volunteer Marek's topic ban, but it looks like at first glance it might be stretch of the topic ban to claim it was violated from what I've seen (though I'll let others dig on that).
I mostly am commenting here because VM mentioned they didn't look up previous sanctions. A lot of users have been dealing with exactly the same behavior from Atsme that VM described on the battleground mentality. Those of us who frequent the fringe noticeboard are especially familiar with Atsme (one previous sanction was being banned from Kombucha for edit warring).[60] The snark and battleground behavior often directed at editors on article talk pages has previously caught the community's attention regarding BLP issues[61] and pursuing editors on noticeboards, etc. with vexatious claims like the claim of VM's topic ban here appears to be. Part of that pursuit of editors resulted in a block by Bishonen[62] where a site ban or noticeboard ban was also warned as a likely next step if not justified already.[63].
Bishonen also recently warned Atsme of a topic-ban in American politics if their behavior kept up back in August.[64]. The "popcorn" comments on this board[65] seem to indicate the snark and battleground mentality still permeates Atsme's interactions with editors. It's concerning that someone is bringing up these same issues again with Atsme in a controversial topic like politics when they are already on a short WP:ROPE, but it's pretty much the same stuff we've been dealing with in the past for other series of topics whenever Atsme's behavior finally gets brought up at admin boards each time. They usually seem to lash out at editors and admins[66] that try to warn them about this too and pursue that same battleground mentality, so regardless of the question of Volunteer Marek, Atsme's behavior does need a look considering the history. If VM's posts were squarely not a violation of the topic ban, then that would be more vexatious use of admin boards by Atsme that they've been boomeranged for before. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:22, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Fyddlestix
VM's edit should not be considered topic ban violation - if Goldenring wanted to topic ban VM from American politics more generally, they could (and should) have. But they didn't, and they have even commented here (in response to Atsme's own request for clarification) that the ban should not be interpreted that broadly:
For a ban from Trump, I don't seem to interpret it as widely as some; I don't think a ban from Trump is effectively a ban from post-2015 American politics. It's worth noting the phrasing of the ban, too - "articles and edits" - which is meant to say that some articles may not themselves be about Trump but individual edits on those articles may still be - so the ban is not from Sean Hannity but any edits made to that article that could be reasonably construed to concern Trump would be violations.
I note that Tony has recused themselves here - it might be worth noting that Masem and Atsme have been the two most vocal proponents of a rather strict (and extremely contentious) interpretation of policy in a number of recent politics-related discussions: [67][68][69][70] to the point where Atsme is writing a rather one-sided essay about the topic that is made up largely of quotes by Masem, and has asked him for for backup on contentious American politics articles. For those willing to plough through it all, there is a lot of evidence of IDHT-type behavior from Atsme in those discussions. Fyddlestix (talk) 01:31, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Softlavender
I am uninvolved on this article and was neutral about this AE until I read Fyddlestix's comments and evidence above, and I now believe that Masem should recuse himself from this AE, as Tony did. Softlavender (talk) 01:58, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Statement by SPECIFICO
Pardon me if the following is an evaluation without evidence, but Atsme is a diehard tendentious POV editor in many areas, most recently American Politics. She's generally civil and occasionally charming, especially to Admins, which has served her well. It's gotten her a free pass over and over. In general, however, she denies the validity of mainstream sources, which is fine -- good for her, but it doesn't work on Wikipedia. She crusades against mainstream-sourced content based on a kaleidoscopic array of illogical assertions that the mainstream is biased. She has plenty of weird interpretations of content, wing-nut stuff like on G. Edward Griffin, and she distorts policy to prolong talk-page disputes long after her views have been rejected. Anyway, feel free to hat this statement-w/o-diffs or ask for diffs if either is appropriate. My point is that there's plenty of context for this false charge that VM violated the TBAN, and we'd all be much more productive without Atsme editing in American Politics. SPECIFICO talk 02:00, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
@Atsme:, Above you wrote: The bad faith VM and SPECIFICO have shown since that warning goes beyond the pale.
AE is not really the best place to make personal attacks. [71] Especially when it has nothing to do with the complaint against you. Did you have some diffs you forgot to share? SPECIFICO talk 04:11, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Comment by Shock Brigade Harvester Boris
(edit conflict) Fyddlestix beat me to it. User:Masem is a good admin but should not act as an uninvolved administrator on this matter. He's of course free to weigh in with his views like the rest of us, but he should recuse just as Tony did. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:01, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Statement by MONGO
Trump is currently mentioned twice in the lede and at least one more time later. It may be a stretch to say this is not intertwined with Trump but not a long stretch. Looks like VM is hoping to rid himself of all opposition by expecting a very strict application of the sanctions be applied to others, but expecting everyone to grant him the benefit of the doubt. Based on my interchanges with him, I'd have to say his behavior is as bad a battlefield one in this arena as any I have encountered lately. VolunteerMarek's flat out comment "its staying" [72] certainly had a chilling effect. Maybe the thing to do is protect the page until after the election before half the active editors get sanctioned fighting over this total POS coatrack of an article. For the record, I'd likely vote against Moore if I were an Alabamian.--MONGO 02:35, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Anythingyouwant
The material at issue began like this: "A week or so before the election, a CBS News poll revealed that '71 percent of Alabama Republicans say the allegations against Roy Moore are false'". I think we can all agree that the Republicans of Alabama are living persons within the meaning of our BLP policy, right? So it would be unfortunate if we slant the article in question to make it seem like those living persons don't care about child molestation, and/or support child molesters, instead of believing (as this poll indicates) that the accusations are false. Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:47, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
- User:MelanieN, I am saying we should include this to follow RS that indicate Republicans aren't disregarding or excusing the allegations, they are disbelieving them. As to the idea that they are not covered by the BLP policy, “Editors must take particular care when adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page....This policy applies to any living person mentioned in a BLP, whether or not that person is the subject of the article, and to material about living persons in other articles and on other pages, including talk pages.” The lead of the BLP in question says, “Alabama Republicans have largely defended Moore from the allegations”. Some editors don’t want readers to know why. Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:51, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Statement by TheValeyard
I feel it necessary to parse this statement below.
I would argue very strongly that we would not have a spin-off article for him if Trump did not get involved with his opinion early on,
- A Senatorial candidate alleged to have sexually assaulted minors, refusing to resign, and his own party stating they will expel him if he wins the seat (IIRC, it has been said this has not happened since Reconstruction) is notable in its own right. Donald Trump endorsed Moore's primary opponent, and his own sexual assault allegations notwithstanding, did not "make" this story.
"creating a means for journalists anti-Trump to use this situation as a means to attack Trump and the GOP in general.
- IMO this statement is akin to the several occasions when the current president has tweeted something later seen as actionable in potential legal proceedings, such as calling for citizens employed in the private sector to be fired or declaring a suspect in a crime be given the death penalty. The admin here has declared a personal bias, echoing conservative's attacks on the mainstream media. This admin cannot be allowed to render a decision in this Enforcement proceeding. TheValeyard (talk) 02:54, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Statement by DHeyward
Firstly, the article isn't under AP2 sanctions, it's under BLP. The notification requirement is the BLP case. VM knows this. Second, VM continues to use the AE process to bludgeon opponents. He is under a topic ban for Donald Trump and it's an extremely obtuse view to not include articles regarding the election of Roy Moore as being unrelated to Trump. The man story in virtually all news outlets today is Trump's endorsement of Moore. Claiming Moore is unrelated to Trump in even the broad interpretation we use is like saying Rudolf the Reindeer is unrelated to Santa Claus. VM needs to be banned from filing these frivolous AE requests and sanctiond for violating his topic ban. --DHeyward (talk) 04:20, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Atsme
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Complicated series of issues here. I think both Atsme and VM are in the wrong. VM clearly did this edit despite the current enforcement they are under against any articles relating to Trump, broadly construed (from here). The edit has zero issues with BLP (its simply results from a poll) or otherwise falls in the usual exemptions that are allowed for, so VM violated that sanction. That said, Atsme may also be goading a bit here - while edits from banned editors can be undone without reason, in a area that is under DS, I would be extremely careful using this as a means to justify the second revert, and for that, this might need a simple short term block as with DHeyward above. --MASEM (t) 22:19, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- Given that Trump has backed Moore up frequently against the accusations leveled at him, which in turn has led to criticism towards Trump by the media (just checked google news right now, and there's a whole new flurry of activity because Trump officially endorsed Moore in the election race), this topic falls within "broadly". --MASEM (t) 22:36, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- On whether the Roy Moore accusation article falls into the Trump area, I would argue very strongly that we would not have a spin-off article for him if Trump did not get involved with his opinion early on, creating a means for journalists anti-Trump to use this situation as a means to attack Trump and the GOP in general. If Trump simply had backed Moore and no one in the media blinked and we simply included this fact, I would agree that that wouldn't be sufficient to be included in a broadly construed Trump topic ban. But Trump and Moore have been strongly linked by the media, making this topic definitely Trump-related, if we follow how "broadly construed" should be taken in the past. --MASEM (t) 00:17, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
- Marek, the diff above shows the fact that the sanction about Trump-related articles remains in place after removal of another sanction, and I don't see any further clarification about that. --MASEM (t) 00:19, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
- Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk · contribs) I cannot see how I'm involved. I haven't touched that page at all (much less any connected pages), I don't have any connection to Atsme that I'm aware of (Interacted before, yes, but do not consider any type of involved outside of being a WP editor). --MASEM (t) 02:39, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
- I consider Atsme a friend, and as such INVOLVED with her, so I am recusing on this even though I placed the original sanctions on the article. Also, a note that it is technically under BLP sanctions, not AP2, though if that is causing confusion and there is consensus here to move it to AP2, I have no objection. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:35, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- I agree that Roy Moore, and specifically the recent controversy around sexual abuse allegations, fall under the Donald Trump topic if broadly construed, given that Trump has repeatedly inserted himself into the controversy. That being said, this is also a thoroughly unimpressive contribution from Atsme. I'm seeing a clear battleground mentality from both participants here. Lankiveil (speak to me) 01:04, 5 December 2017 (UTC).
- Oh, I disagree that Moore falls under any Trump-ban construction--such a construction is so broad that anything Trump has tweeted about or mentioned in passing would be covered, which is just about anything. One could argue that given the Access Hollywood tape the female anatomy or lifestyles of the rich and infamous would be covered by such a topic ban. Masem, sorry, but we have a spin-off article because a. no one follows NOTNEWS and b. there's a ton of coverage and it's a Big Deal. One doesn't always need Trump to make something a Big Deal... "Strongly linked by the media", I don't know what that means: is this a post-truth construction of reality? Drmies (talk) 01:36, 5 December 2017 (UTC)