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June 17

What's the song in this video?

Moved to Entertainment Desk D0762 (talk) 14:20, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Gold and Water

Does gold form in water or where water once was? What is the connection between gold and water (streams) and why they always in the early days would find it in streams or around water?

It doesn't form in water, no. However, water erodes gold out of stone formations and, being fairly heavy, the gold typically doesn't go very far but stays a short distance from the source, headed downstream. So, if you find a lot of gold nuggets in a stream, you might want to look just upstream for the source. StuRat (talk) 03:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

From stories of prospectors and placer mining, and panning for gold, there seems some merit in what you say. See AuH₂O. Edison (talk) 03:52, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

So gold is typically in stone formations? Anythiong special about the stone formations that would make one stone create gold instead of another? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.126.131.225 (talk) 22:36, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Gold#Occurrence may assist. (Stones do not create gold. Gold is associated with certain ores). --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:47, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

The gold takes the form of veins running through rock. I believe this happens when undergound water seeps through cracks in the rock and deposits minerals along the way, including gold. So, since the gold was originally dissolved in water, there is another association between the two. Also note that ocean water contains a huge amount of gold, but there's no economic way to extract it. StuRat (talk) 02:29, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

"Wikipedia" as a FA

Can Wikipedia article be nominated as a featured article candidate? Or is there some rule which prohibits making articles about Wikimedia projects featured? 89.236.214.174 (talk) 11:12, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

If you go to Talk:Wikipedia, you will see that it is a former featured article. The reasons it was demoted didn't really have anything to do with the subject matter, just the quality of the article. -- Coneslayer (talk) 11:44, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Whoa! I'd love to see screenshot of Wikipedia main page when "Wikipedia" was featured article of the day (if it was, of course; not all FAs become "FA of today"). Like, "Today's featured article on Wikipedia is... Wikipedia" *chuckles* Thank you for response :) 89.236.214.174 (talk) 12:09, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I know. Why don't me try and feature it again? Only joking.--Faizaguo (talk) 16:54, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Raul has said (if I recall correctly) that the Wikipedia article will never be a FA of the day as it's "navel gazing". Exxolon (talk) 19:36, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

That's a rip-off...:(...if anyone has screenshots please upload them. Thanks.:)--Faizaguo (talk) 18:36, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

what is this song??

Moved to Entertainment Desk D0762 (talk) 14:16, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

When it starts to be bullying

Where is the limit between normal peer pressure and bullying? Isn't peer pressure always present in a group? (since the group has to exist somehow). Are we so whiney about pressure/critism, that we consider any negative feedback bullying? 80.58.205.37 (talk) 12:07, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

My understanding is... peer pressure is doing something to fit in with your social-group, bullying is being forced to do something/give something to someone who is not (generally) a friend. The peer pressure is that you feel pressured to do something to 'fit in', whereas bully is usually someone basically trying to exert their power over you through intimidation - they aren't trying to convince you that the thing you are hesitant about is right (e.g. friends pushing you to try smoking may believe you'll enjoy it/it's a cool thing to do) they are just pushing/forcing you to do something to feel powerful/important. The difficultly is that bullying is a state of mind as much as a definable thing. If you feel you are being bullied (but the bully feels they are just being assertive/pushing you) then who is to decide which person is wrong? I don't believe society considers all negative feedback bullying, but as with these things it is as much tone and presentation as it is content. Constructive criticism is what people generally seek out - because that focusses on how we can improve from our position/where we can improve ny156uk (talk) 13:06, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Technically, they're non-overlapping. From Peer pressure:

"Peer pressure is a term describing the pressure exerted by a peer group in encouraging a person to change their attitude, behavior and/or morals, to conform..."

From Bullying:

"Bullying is the act of intentionally causing harm to others, through verbal harassment, physical assault, or other more subtle methods of coercion such as manipulation."

So if someone bullies you, they're not your peer. In this case, the "limit" is where your peer isn't your peer anymore. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 17:41, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Peer pressure is direct or indirect pressure to conform to certain standands of behavior, appearance, philosophy, etc., in order to fit in. It's usually spoken of in a bad light, and indeed it can be harmful (when it causes us to treat ourselves and others in ways that are unhealthy or make us feel ashamed or uncomfortable), but some degree of outside pressure is essential to our socialization as human beings. Bullying is usually direct action taken against a person for the purpose of displaying one's power over that person and lowering that person's self-esteem, and it's always harmful to the victim. Sometimes the two overlap, in the sense that people who don't fit in may be easier targets for bullying, and the insecurity they often feel about not belonging to any group may be used against them by bullies. However, the relationship is one of powerful aggressor to weak victim, not one of equals (peers). In short, peer pressure makes you want to fit in, and bullying just makes you feel bad. - Aletheia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.104.139.75 (talk) 18:28, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Good day. As a high school student I have say that sometimes peer pressure can be bullying in itself. One time when I was in school I was ganged up by a whole group of boys. They tried to get me to put a firework in the boys toilet and flush it. I didn't, but the thing is that peer pressure and bullying can be two separate things. But sometimes they can be two same things. At least that is what I experience at my school. And my experience isn't really enough information, but I wanted to point that out. Peer pressure is good and at the same its bad. Bullying is bad, but at the same time it also is good. Bullying forced me to become a much stronger person and to change aspects of myself I didn't like. I hope I have helped. I am not sure it was that helpful, but I hope it was. Have a positively wonderful day.Rem Nightfall (talk) 18:48, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

@Rem Nightfall:No, you didn't help. Your writing is confusing and uninformative. I hope my bullying/peer pressure helps you.80.58.205.37 (talk) 11:50, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry 80.58. I didn't mean to make that confusing. I was trying to say that another factor you have to consider is that peer pressure can be bullying. I hope that is a little better and I would like to apologize for my informal answer above.Rem Nightfall (talk) 01:29, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Medical term for animals who continue to grow throughout their lifetime

I was watching a TV show about fishing on the history channel. They briefly mentioned a medical term for animals who continue to grow throughout their lifetime - specifically fish fall into this category. As opposed to mammals such as humans who stop growing once they reach adulthood.

While there are certain items in species body's that may continue to grow, the overall body stops growing. For example mice and other rodents upper and lower incisors continue to grow through their life - this is not what I am looking for.

This condition of growth throughout an animals life results in huge size, for example fish over 400 lbs where normally they reach 100 lbs.

I searched through the history channel web site and have searched other sites for this topic to no avail. 132.79.7.16 (talk) 12:09, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Its called Indeterminate growth (although the article only talks about plants). Also see this D0762 (talk) 15:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Rebuilding of World Trade Center

Hard to tell from our article, but is Google Maps' view reasonably up to date? According to the image I saw, there's still not an awful lot to see above ground level. --Dweller (talk) 12:48, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

According to Google, "Google Maps uses the same satellite data as Google Earth. Google Earth acquires the best imagery available, most of which is approximately one to three years old." (I should probably add that to the Google Maps article, eh?) --LarryMac | Talk 16:10, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I guess I'm asking if anyone on this page is familiar with New York... what does it look like right now? --Dweller (talk) 20:22, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

You might find Project Rebirth useful.Iiidonkeyiii (talk) 08:38, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

PGX

Does this product really help with weight loss? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.208.251.21 (talk) 17:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Aside from linking Polyglycoplex, the Refdesk can't give you much more unless someone finds a good review site. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 17:28, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

someone deleted an image of a mugshot done by a local police dept.

how can I protest this deletion based on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Mugshot —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikindeling (talk • contribs) 17:37, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

• If you disagree with a deletion you can ask for a review at WP:DRV. Exxolon (talk) 19:33, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Hunting Conterversy

Good day. I was thinking about this for a very long time. We hunt animals as a sport and for fun. So do other creatures. Sometimes predator will hunt for a sport or fun. Yet, when an animal does like cheetah we don't care. But when humans do it we do care. Why is this? Is this because we know that destruction we can cause. That when humans hunt something we will destroy a whole ecosystem. I am watching a documentary called The Making of Planet Earth and they said they were going to shoot a migration of creature that was in another BBC program in 1989, but from 1989 to 1990 the creatures had been wiped out due to hunting. Also I watched another documentary called 100 Years of Wildlife Filming and they showed men sticking ice picks into babies seal's heads. I am against hunting, but I just want to know why do we have a problem with humans hunting for sport, but not other animals, such as cheetah, who hunt for sport? Thank you for answering my question. I really appreciate it. Have a positively wonderful day.Rem Nightfall (talk) 18:32, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

What supports your contention that cheetahs or other animals hunt for sport? I understand that to be confined to humans. — Lomn 18:40, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know necessarily if other animals hunt for fun or sport. Because the information seems a little weird. I had watched a predator documentary and they said that a mountain lion wasn't hungry and was just chasing the rabbit for fun. But that seems weird. How do we know if the animal was hungry or not? We can't switch our stomachs to the cat stomach. So I really don't know if other animals hunt for fun or sport. Do other animals hunt for fun or sport?Rem Nightfall (talk) 18:53, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Do neither of you own cats?

House-cats often hunt for the 'fun' of it. A well fed house-cat typically will make no effort to eat the animals it's killed. Sometimes ignoring them as soon as they're dead or sometimes presenting them (as gifts?) to humans, etc. My old cat used to catch mice with its claws retracted, carry the uninjured mouse to the middle of a large room and then release it, only to catch it again right before it reached safety. (This would repeat until either the mouse was injured, or until the mouse finally won this game and escaped.) I have no cites for any of this, as it's all original research, but It seems reasonable to assume that house cats hunt mice for the same reason humans enjoy violent video games; an instinctive joy of killing. APL (talk) 19:32, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

To answer the original question: most people assume that, contrary to humans, animals do not have a lot of free will. A lion hunting a rabbit, whether for food or for fun, merely follows its instincts; a human who hunts makes a conscious decision to do so; and it is this decision that we may find morally acceptable or not. DAVID ŠENEK 19:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I own a cat, but he never gives me presents. He likes to lay on may lap and sleep on me for hours at time. Which usually means I can't get off my chair for a while. He eats spiders. He eats them in front me. I just watch the spiders leg wiggle as he feeds the spider in his mouth one bite a time. Back on topic: To David Šenek: But you could say the same things about humans. We are just following our instinct to kill. Not naturally our instinct to survive, but to kill. Cause I'm sure we have that instinct. I'm against hunting because I watched that documentary 100 Years of Wildlife filming when they showed me baby seals, not adult, baby seals be hunted with ice picks. Ice picks in their little heads and they dragged the bodies across the snow. The snow was covered baby seal blood. I cried for the seals. I also watched a show on the Animal Planet about animal emotions. It showed a herd of elephants mourning a dead member of the pack. I am against hunting because after watching that documentary of animal emotions it awakened my eyes to the fact that animals do feel. I could just imagine that elephant as a human mother crying for her dead baby. Its sad. I would never be able to pick up a gun and hunt a creature for sport or for fun. It has nothing to do with the moral of a decision, for me at least. For me its emotional an response and I don't why either.Rem Nightfall (talk) 19:57, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

It was not my intention to deny that humans have instincts, but unlike animals we have the ability to exercise (some) control over those instincts, or act against them - even in very extreme ways, for example when people starve themselves or live a life of celibacy. The fact that you personally couldn't kill animals for fun may be a purely emotional response. But I do believe that the fact that, more generally, we judge people who kill animals for fun differently than we judge animals who do the same thing (the original question), is an issue of morality - and therefore of free will. DAVID ŠENEK 21:16, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't trying to fight with you or try to have you infer that I was saying you deny that humans have instinct as well. I was trying to add the fact that humans have instincts. Some people don't realize that and do try to deny that. There are certain groups who try to deny, well more or less control humans instincts. As human beings we do have more control over our instincts and we have a responsibility to this world and the life that exist on this planet.Rem Nightfall (talk) 22:09, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

First, about cats. They certainly do the "catch and release and catch again" thing with mice and birds. It seems like torture, but may help to sharpen their hunting skills. They may not need those skills, if their food is provided by humans, but the instinct doesn't just turn off. We had a bird loose in the house once that the cat dragged in and released (that was fun !). I suppose it's similar with humans who hunt. They may never need that skill, but maybe if society collapses some day they will need it, who knows. Now, some arguments against hunting:

1) Unrestricted hunting, as noted, can wipe out entire species.

2) People tend to hunt for "the best" examples of each species. Killing those leaves the "not so good" individuals to reproduce and can thus weaken the species.

3) There are those who feel that causing pain and death in animals, when not necessary for survival, is wrong.

4) People get killed in hunting accidents.

5) In countries with gun control, allowing rifles for hunting increases the liklihood of homicide. StuRat (talk) 02:17, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

First *glares at cat* you never do anything except sleep and eat spiders...oh there was that one time you ate a mouse. Second, Can we call all five of you arguments the Big Five. Cause I'm sure that is the reason most people dislike hunting.Rem Nightfall (talk) 02:58, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

To be balanced, lets provide some good reasons for hunting.

1) Balanced and sensible hunting helps reduce overpopulation of certain species

2) Hunting is a form of controlling or removing pests, accidentally inroduced species, and those whose natural predators are somehow missing

3) Hunting is a way of providing food in a sustainable way, without the problems associated with farming

4) Hunting remains the most productive way of obtaining some forms of food (eg fishing)

5) Sensibly managed hunting is a natural and organic method of using the earth's resources. Meat is eaten, and hunted fur (eg possum: I don't mean tiger!) is natural, biodgradable, warm, sustainable, breathable (etc etc) and compares favourably with polar fleece and other artifical plastic based fabrics which are not biodegradable and have manufacturing issues (cost, pollution etc)

6) Successful hunting requires sensible, respectful and intelligent use of firearms and other weapons, which is a healthy attitude

7) Hunting is an energetic, outdoor activity which inspires the individual with a respect for food. Food should not be an easy-won commodity, scoffed in excess by lazy individuals.

Like most issues, there is no simple or correct answer. Gwinva (talk) 03:03, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

For point 2, can I just add that the natural predators may be 'somehow missing' because they were just more fun to hunt? (Or, in the interest of balance, because they posed a threat to human life) Oh, and hunting is only sustainable if you have a large area full of animals feeding a small human population. Once the human population grows, it is no longer sustainable. But the demand for hunting can lead to the preservation of wild areas and animal populations by providing a financial incentive to preserve them (as you can charge hunters), if handled well. 79.66.85.219 (talk) 12:51, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking along the lines of the Easter Bunny Hunt (more) and possums wild pigs and so forth. (Take the pig link, as just one example: New Zealand's Department of Conservation, which states: "Pigs are present throughout the park, and are known to eat eggs and chicks of ground-dwelling birds as well as seedlings, berries and roots of a large variety of native plants. To control pig numbers in the park, managers have found that the most effective method is allow access to responsible hunters using well trained pig dogs.")

You're right: bad hunting practices have caused problems, like bad farming practices, or bad fishing, or deforestation for arable land and so forth. We don't close down Wikipedia because its vandalised; let's not write off hunting (or anything else) just because some people have been stupid in the past. Gwinva (talk) 23:35, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Gwinva for point number 1 and 2 I would like to state that the creatures in the environment that hunting is happening the creatures do that themselves. We don't live in their ecosystem they balance each other. They control how many predators and how much prey is in an ecosystem by hunting to control the population were are ruining an ecosystem by "helping" them. For your pig thing. Pigs have to eat too. That's all I have to say, pigs have to eat too.Rem Nightfall (talk) 01:42, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry Rem, I have to disagree with you; humans are part of the ecosystem. Take the above pig example: pigs need to eat. True, but at the moment those pigs are eating endangered birds and endangered fauna. And those pigs have no predator but humans: nothing else is eating the pigs. That is not a system where the creatures "balance each other". The pigs were introduced, and there are no predators. Which was the point I was making in 1 and 2: A case can be made that sometimes Man is the creature in the ecosystem who needs to provide balance.

I have no wish to debate, so I will leave it there. But for the record, I have never hunted, so don't think I have an axe to grind. I just have a dislike for unbalanced arguements, and wished to show why some people think hunting is a good or legitimate thing. (Which I think was your original question?) Gwinva (talk) 02:43, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Trivia!

Does anyone know any good general trivia sites online? Was going to "Trivia Cafe" but the questions are kind of weak; hoping someone knew of a better site to kill time with Trivia at? Thanks in advance! 38.112.225.84 (talk) 18:58, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean a repository of trivia, or a site with quizzes on trivia? Fribbler (talk) 23:22, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Umm, repository? "Quizzes on trivia" - that sounds a little too Meta for me....I'm just trying to get some good questions to ask co-workers during downtime :) 38.112.225.84 (talk) 16:17, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Here is a short list of trivia sites JessicaN10248 19:25, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Holocaust

What did the germans have to say for themselves after the war. were they ashamed of what they had done? how do they feel about it now? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.18.33.2 (talk) 19:05, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

• The articles linked to from Holocaust#Aftermath_and_historiography would be a good place to start. Exxolon (talk) 19:31, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

(ec)In answer to the first part of your question, according to the Denazification article:

Despite [Allied] campaigns support for Nazism and genocide among German population continued to exist in certain degree [after the war].

• A majority in the years 1945-49 believed National Socialism to have been a good idea, badly applied.
• In 1946 60% of Germans said the Nuremberg trials had been unfair.
• In 1946 37% in the U.S. occupation zone said about the Holocaust that "the extermination of the Jews and Poles and other non-Aryans was necessary for the security of Germans".
• In 1946 1 in 3 in the U.S. occupation zone said that Jews should not have the same rights as those belonging to the Aryan race
• In 1950 1 in 3 said the Nuremberg trials had been unfair.
• In 1952 37% said Germany was better off without the Jews.
• In 1952 25% had a good opinion of Hitler. Stanstaple (talk) 19:38, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

In present-day Germany racism and other Nazi-like ideas are an "elephant in the room" situation. Not many Germans will defend Nazi ideas, but many believe they are fair. 80.58.205.37 (talk) 11:54, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Please give us some referenced data for claims of this kind. I am not German, but read and watch a lot of German media, have lived in Germany, and am in private and professional contact with Germans on daily basis. I disagree with unqualified statements such as "many believe they [Nazi ideas] are fair". ---Sluzzelin talk 14:59, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Where I agree is that the Nazi-past has indeed been an elephantine burden in political discourse during the decades of Germany's Vergangenheitsbewältigung, and that pointing out Germany's own suffering or accusing others of committing atrocities were seen as tu quoque attempts to deflect from Nazi Germany's own crimes and deemed "politically incorrect" (though that term didn't exist at the time). See also an earlier question here. ---Sluzzelin talk 15:28, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion, Germans have still not distanciated themselves from this racial ideology. And even nowadays, being German is consider by most to be born from German parents. Of course, they will not use the word "German blood" since it would be brought in relation with the Nazi past, but if you are from another race and were born and grew up in Germany, possibly you are not considered German. Sources: here "Der Spiegel, a serious German weekly magazine, about racism in Germany. here a comparison between US and Germany by the FU Berlin, one of the main German institutions.

80.58.205.37 (talk) 11:55, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Well since I was asked, I will respond, though only briefly, because I don't wish to turn this into a debate:

No one denies that racial prejudice, overt racism, racist violence, and hate crime exist in Germany, just like they exist in other European countries. I still disagree with the conclusion that this is unique to Germany, has anything to do with "many Germans believing that Nazi-ideas were fair" or "Germans" not distancing themselves from racist Nazi-ideology, or that either of these statements holds any meaningful truth. ---Sluzzelin talk 15:28, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say that it is unique to Germany. The problem is just some nations define themselves independent of blood or race other don't. An example of the last case is Germany. That also explains why Britons granted citizenship to citizens originally from India or Pakistan, and why there exist several generations of Turks living in Germany and not acquiring citizenship. 80.58.205.37 (talk) 16:47, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Do tanks have ignition keys?

According to the Shawn Nelson article, he broke into three different tanks because the first two would not start. Do tanks require a key to start the engine? Did they just leave the keys in the ignition? -- MacAddct  1984 ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

The article states "Armory officials said that only a few people are given keys to the vehicles", so I guess that's yes to the first question and, probably, no to the second. --Tagishsimon (talk) 20:17, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I should have been less lazy and read the whole article. Maybe that explains why he couldn't start the first two tanks, because he was only able to get a key to the third? A "huge lapse in security" seems to describe the situation well. -- MacAddct  1984 ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:37, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about tanks, but the M109 howitzer does not have an ignition key. However, the doors to the vehicle (including the sliding one to the driver's chamber) are typically locked with simple padlocks when not supervised - the mentioned keys could be referring to those. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 20:41, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I spent ten years in the Army and no military pattern vehicle I encountered, including jeeps, tanks, and armoured personnel carriers, had ignition keys. They all had push button starters. This kind of makes sense - there's is little more embarassing than missing the big attack (or perhaps a more retrograde motion) because you can't find the keys to the car.

To prevent theft, vehicles were padlocked as appropriate (i.e., drivers hatch on a tank, steering wheel on a jeep, etc.)

Given the amount of maintenance a lot of these vehicles require, it wouldn't surprise me if the two tanks that didn't start... just didn't start. - Eron^Talk 21:11, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I guess it depends on the army. The AIL Storm does have an ignition key. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 21:33, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and it could also be that he was so nervous he messed up the ignition sequence. I know of an officer who forgot how to operate his own firearm when it counted. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 21:38, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

We certainly had some vehicles that had ignition keys, but they were all civilian pattern models - mostly light trucks - that had been bought en masse and painted green. (For a while, my command post was a Chevy 5/4 ton with a box on the back.) It looks like the Storm - described as being based on the Jeep Wrangler - is one of those type. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that this one doesn't have a key. - Eron^Talk 22:24, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I guess it's mostly a matter of semantics with regard to the Storm and similar vehicles. As for the Merkava - I couldn't say. I've only been inside one once, it was dark and I had other things on my mind :) . But you're probably right. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 23:04, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Not Allowing Newscasters,Etc. to Wear U.S. flag Pens

Please let we, the public, know who came up with this "idiotic" idea of not allowing your on-air peole to wear a United States Flag pen. You have just lost alot of loyal watchers because of that. It matters not what your political leaning, this is, IN FACT, the United States of America and if you don't like it and can't respect it, leave and go to the country where you can be happy and repect, but you have not right taking away symbols of Our Country.

You should be absolutely ashamed, and, as I said, I know of at least 20 people who will no longer watch your ABC stations, and as we continue to pass this information around, those numbers will certainly grow. I hope it's worth it to you to insult this great country at all costs.

Sincerely,

Pat S. Pensa Atlanta, Ga. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.105.123.249 (talk) 21:21, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

You seem confused. This is Wikipedia, not ABC news. There is no relationship between the two. I also suspect that they were wearing "pins", not "pens", unless you count them having a pen stuck behind their ears. StuRat (talk) 21:31, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Why is a flag pin such a big deal in the US? In fact, why is the whole country so overtly patriotic? It's kind of silly... just blinds people to the idea that other countries might be doing something better and that lessons could be learnt from said countries. I wouldn't say I knew anyone here in Britain who wasn't patriotic, but flags only come out when England play at football and stuff like that. -mattbuck (Talk) 21:43, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Jingoism, and the fact that the Republican Party discovered that flag pins are another stick with which they can beat Democrats. Foolish people are readily moved by such foolish issues.

Atlant (talk) 22:51, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

They're made into a big deal by the third in the three groups of people in this drama:

1. the sincere patriots who see the flag as a symbol of all that is good and just about the country and its people
2. the equally sincere patriots who see the flag as a symbol of the country's government -- and in particular its military -- which do not always conform to the highest principles of the country and its people
3. the partisan hacks who gain political advantage by persuading group #1 that group #2's unease about the flag is due to their opposition to all that is good and just about the country and its people.

The flag burning debate centers on the same deliberate misunderstanding. --Sean 14:43, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Additionally, I can't tell if this has any present grounding in fact. The June 2008 complaints on the net that I encountered match, word for word, the October 2001 phrasing found at Snopes.— Lomn 21:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

You're not really a patriot unless you tattoo a flag on your forehead. The guys who just put on a flag pin are wusses—they don't care enough about this country to wear their pride on their skin. You're not a patriot if you can hang your honor in the closet. Oh, and don't forget to ask all your coworkers if they're loyal Americans. Any that refuse, or who won't get a tattoo, can be reported to the appropriate government agency. Bonus points if you annex a part of Canada, too. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:54, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Bush: "Canada, isn't that one of our Northern states ?"

Aide: "No, sir. We aren't scheduled to invade and annex Canada until 2010."

Bush: "Tell you what, these Canadians are so nice, let's let them keep their country ... until 2012 at least." - Chilly Beach - StuRat (talk) 22:26, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I think there's two sides to everything. Americans may be "too patriotic," but Brits seem to be sadly unpatriotic nowadays. British friends tell me that the only people who fly Union Jacks nowadays are "racists and old people," and that anyone who flies a flag is seen as out of touch. That's quite sad, I think. Why shouldn't you be proud of a country that has so much to be proud of? Too much colonial guilt or something? You can't get satisfy all of your patriotism quotient just through GWB-bashing. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:41, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't forget Rangers' fans. Mind you they demonstrate their pride in somewhat mysterious ways. Rockpocket 00:53, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

There are certainly two sides of everything. I've never understood why private citizens in this country seem so intent on displaying the emblem of the federal government. My house is not a post office or a tax collection center, why would I put the government's flag out front?
It's a bizarre state of affairs where people are assumed not to love their country if they're not constantly advertising their commitment to the government. APL (talk) 13:11, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Of course, this sentiment doesn't apply on independence day, or flag day or something. APL (talk) 13:13, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

But..... Why would you presume that people don't love their country just because they don't fly the Union Flag? Why do you need to fly the flag to show your love for your country? Isn't that the whole problem with the lapel silliness that people have been discussing above? I think a lot of British people are very proud of their country, they just don't see the need to fly the flag all the time to show it. Many may even think it's silly... Surely it's their right to choose to love their country and show off their pride in different ways? Personally, I think British people show of their pride in ther country in far better ways. (You could say a Brit doesn't need flashy symbols to show Britain is great, it just comes naturally...) Another case in point, many Malaysians are very patriotic, often (IMHO anyway) unhealthily so. Many are also proud of their flag. However despite the governments attempts to instill the sort of flag waving culture you see in the US, it hasn't really been embraced that well. But as I've already said, it's dumb to say that's because of a lack of patriotism, it mostly isn't. Or here in NZ, a significant percentage of the population doesn't even like the current flag. Other then in sports events (where a flag waving culture is fairly universal for all countries I think) you don't see it that much. But Kiwis are definitely proud of NZ. Nil Einne (talk) 16:30, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Good evening. Even though being overly patriotic isn't necessarily a bad thing it can get a little over the top. Have a positively wonderful day. I hope you find ABC soon so that you can persuade them.Rem Nightfall (talk) 22:05, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think they should be allowed to wear flags, it's jingoistic ,hotclaws 03:35, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

What if the reporter isn't a US citizen? Would they have to wear the flag pen/pin? Whom else should we require to wear symbols of patriotism? Teachers? Garbage collectors (though our garbage trucks do have flags painted on the sides)? Dog walkers? I know, let's pass a Constitutional amendment requiring a flag pin be worn at all times. If you're naked, pin it to your skin. Corvus cornix_talk 15:43, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

See flag waving contest or dick waving contest. What?! No article on either? How unpatriotic. ;-) --Prestidigitator (talk) 18:23, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Nil Einne. There are many ways to show patriotism; flying or displaying your country's flag is one of them. Those who don't do so shouldn't be tagged as unpatriotic, and those who do do so shouldn't be mocked as old-fashioned or anything else. I've never been one for having the Australian flag on display, but on Australia Day, almost as a joke, I stuck one on my front fence. The next day, I thought "why take it down? I'm not proud of my country for only one day a year" - so I kept it there. After 5 months it's become a little faded and ragged, and I'll have to either replace it or remove it soon. But after a lifetime of not being overtly patriotic, I'm now quite comfortable with flying the flag. And I don't even like the current design; I'd vote for a change if a suitable alternative was ever on offer. But it's not about whatever the current design is, it's what it stands for that's important. -- JackofOz (talk) 04:46, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

The comparison of the US Stars and Stripes and the UK Union Jack is problematic at best. The two flags have very different histories and meanings. They came about through quite different processes. One of born from revolution and the other, unless I'm mistaken, a joining together. The two flags strike me as nearly opposite in symbolic meaning, at least in their origins. Like many symbols of revolution through history, the US flag has taken on mythic, nearly sacred qualities. A better comparison might be something like the flag of China. Is China a "flag waving country"? The recurring US concern regarding flags and flag imagery (as in pins) has always struck me as a throwback to the first decades of the country's independence, when it really was a revolutionary "experiment", and the flag was a way to proclaim "we're not British!" I suspect a similar logic explains the relatively frequent use of flags in Canada -- "we're not the US!" To return to the OP, comments like this is, IN FACT, the United States of America and if you don't like it and can't respect it, leave and go to the country where you can be happy and repect always make me cringe. Respect, sure, but "like it or leave it"? No thanks, I'll stay here and continue to point out the good things and condemn the bad. Pfly (talk) 08:18, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

That and the fact that "like it" is NOT synonymous with "shove it down everyone's throats with a 40-ton hydraulic press". Do these people honestly think that anyone cares what they believe? --NellieBly (talk) 21:28, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I think there's a cultural difference in how flags are used in the US. Say the US bombs the hell out of some country for little or no reason, the next day all the rednecks will have their houses and cars completely covered with American flags. This is their way to say "Yea ! Kill all them damn for'ners, and nuke France while your at it !" (they may also have a bumper sticker that says this verbatim). That makes everyone else not want to display any American flags, as it would imply that they agree with the rednecks. StuRat (talk) 14:37, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

British attitude towards competition ?

I've been watching All Creatures Great and Small, and found their attitude towards competition to be puzzling. One vet seemed to feel the need to get permission from another before even seeing a regular customer of the second vet. To fail to do so was seen as immoral and "poaching customers". In the US, I'd expect vets to try to take each other's customers, as competition is good for the customers in the long run, leading to better service and lower prices. Does this attitude towards competition remain the same today in England as in the movie, or has it since become more acceptable to compete with other businesses ? StuRat (talk) 22:35, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Times have, in fact, changed. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:54, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the situation you're referring to is a Gentlemen's agreement. In my home town there was an arrangement between two cinemas that each would take films from two each of the four major film distirbutors at the time so they were never showing the same films. I imagine this was to avoid a pointless competition for customers who all wanted to see the same film. Exxolon (talk) 23:37, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

There remain many situations where it is seen as underhand to take another's clients without some acknowledgement. Sometimes it is merely that (ie. notification rather than actual request for permission). This is more prevalent in small towns or small fields (eg where the number of people doing particular work is small) where smooth running of businesses and lives is dependant on co-operation, or good working relationships. As Exxolon said, these are gentlemen's, or unwritten agrreements; one is not obliged to stick to these unwritten rules, but if, for example, you poached someone else's regular clients then word would get around, you'd be black-marked, and you would find people less willing to work with you, or pass on other clients/contacts. These areas can be varied, and many have actual processes in place, such as medicine where specialists won't see someone off the street, but require a referral, or corporate taxi drivers, who have their own list of clients and won't book in another driver's regular customer without agreement. Situations like this exist in other countries too, such as NZ. That said, some areas of business/trade are competitive, and others quite cut throat. Like most things, there are unwritten but widely held rules; some people work right on the edge of teh acceptable (and the rules are constantly being pushed, and move over time) but overstep the mark too much and you'll be left in the cold. Gwinva (talk) 00:23, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

(ec) This was a small, relatively (for the UK) remote community. If one vet's office were overextended or if the veterinarians were ill or away for some reason it would be expected that the other office in town would cover for them. It was necessary to keep on good terms with them, and poaching clients would hardly promote that! Also, in a time before computers, medical professionals couldn't easily find out the medical history of new patients. You couldn't trust the pet owner to know or remember everything, and more importantly you had to be sure that the owner was really asking for help with a pet and not just trying to get drugs. (Yes, drugs were a problem back then too.) Lastly, remember that All Creatures Great and Small is a fictionalized (and somewhat rose-coloured) look back at small-town life before and after World War II, and Alf Wight, the real James Herriot, was such a traditionalist that when the married actor playing him in the first series was found to be having an affair with his unmarried female co-star, he had the woman fired but stayed friends with the man. --NellieBly (talk) 00:26, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

NellieBly makes some good points specific to All Creatures. But it's worth remembering that while it's a fictional representation, James Herriot/Alf Wight was a fine observer/drawer of character, and his portrayals of the types of people he found in Yorkshire are superb. You can still find them today! Of course, he wrote about the interesting characters, not the ordinary, average, ones. On a side note, are you watching the film or the TV serial? Gwinva (talk) 00:42, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm watching the TV serial. StuRat (talk) 01:34, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

It's worth noting that the cinema example above is a case where non-competition benefits the consumer. Without the agreement the two cinemas would both choose to show the movie they thought was going to be the most popular, and cinemagoers would be left with no choice. With this agreement both cinemas get to stay in business and viewers get more choice. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:30, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

However, since you have no choice of theatres for the movie you have in mind, they can charge a higher rate and get away with it, due to a lack of competition. StuRat (talk) 16:18, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, from my experience cinema prices are fairly fixed. One of the problems is that there is a natural monopoly there since copyright grants a monopoly to the copyright holders and they have a big say in the ticket price, obviously Nil Einne (talk) 16:39, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

June 18

Urgent London coffee query

I am hoping someone here is a knowledgeable Londoner. I am thinking of driving from London to Stonehenge to see the stone circle up close and without the crowds with a special 8:00 a.m. permit. This will necessitate leaving London at 6:15 a.m. However, I will not be able to drive anywhere at that hour without drinking coffee first, so before I commit to this plan, I need to know: Am I likely to find a place that sells coffee in or near Paddington Station between 5:30 and 6:00 a.m. on a weekday morning? A secondary and related question: Do UK motorways have service areas with (ahem) toilets? (As an American, I want to say "restrooms" but fear that I won't be understood.) Thank you. Marco polo (talk) 01:51, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Can't answer the first, but for the 2nd, yeah, all UK motorways have services, with full facilities, including free restrooms. All signposted, and marked on maps. You'll be on the M3 Motorway for some of the journey, which has the Fleet services. If you take the M4 motorway out of London, you'll pass the Heston services as well. WHAAOE! Gwinva (talk) 02:11, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

AA route planner] for your trip shows services on the A303 as well. Enjoy Stonehenge and all the other places we've told you to go. We expect all articles to be updated with new photos! And do report back! Gwinva (talk) 02:20, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Wow... That's all I can think to say... There are many individual articles for rest stops... Wow... Now I have to go to England before I die so that I might experience what it is that makes a rest area notable. Dismas|^(talk) 03:05, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

What makes them notable? That's easy. The fuel and the food prices (the rate of which is inversely proportional to quality). Fill up self and car elsewhere before setting off. Gwinva (talk) 03:33, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem with that is that drivers and passengers need somewhere to stop and rest in the middle of a long car journey, and motorway service stations are pretty much the only option. Some of them aren't too bad, especially the Moto ones. The trick is to look for the ones that have decent food concessions such as Marks & Spencer, which have good food at reasonable prices. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 07:44, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Although, having just read the Heston Services article, I find that there are those who appreciate the finer qualities of these service areas: "Celebrated chef Heston Blumenthal received his unusual forename because of his parents' love of Heston services." Well, after that recommendation by Mr & Mrs Blumenthal, Marcopolo, you MUST stop there. In fact, why bother going all the way to Stonehenge, with such a place on your doorstep? Gwinva (talk) 03:39, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Marco polo: feeling a little guilty for hijacking your coffee question so it looks answered, but not actually answering it, I now offer this Paddington Guide, which shows a few places which open early. Gwinva (talk) 04:13, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

For coffee, just go inside the station itself. There will be loads of places open even at that time in the morning, catering for the early morning commuters. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 07:44, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

As a relative local to the Stonehenge site I would advise 1. Use the M3 then A303 and you can't miss it. 2. Stonehenge was last year in the top 5 most disappointing sites to visit. Richard Avery (talk) 07:10, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I have already seen Stonehenge, and it was disappointing. However, my partner has never set foot in Great Britain, and for him Stonehenge is one of the "must see" attractions. So we have to go. I haven't had the heart to tell him that it is disappointing, and maybe for him it won't be. I was hoping that seeing it up close, with access to the actual stones, and before the crowds arrive, would be less disappointing, but I've now concluded that the ordeal of waking up at 5:00 and looking for coffee, then driving across London, and the expense of roughly £70 for car rental and fuel outweighs the potential thrill of seeing the stones up close and without a crowd. So we will see it later, along with the busloads of tourists, from behind the railing. Fortunately, my partner has a zoom lens. Thanks for your helpful comments. I guess I will have to consider adding the Heston Services on the M4 to our list of "must see" destinations! Marco polo (talk) 12:34, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

A great antidote to the disappointment of Stonehenge is to visit Avebury, which is just down the road, a lot less famous but more impressive. You can touch the stones, walk round the rings, etc. This really gives you a much better feel of the scale. On a summer evening there is real atmosphere there. -- Q Chris (talk) 12:46, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

There's a lot of good stone circles in the UK: List of stone circles has some (but not comprehensive). The ones off the beaten track can be very atmospheric, and as Q Chris says, you can touch them, sit on them, shelter beside them to eat your picnic etc. They make great shields for snowball fights, also (not that there'll be much snow, just at the moment). Best of all, most are free, and you'll be quite alone. Some require a walk (short strolls to energetic walks). Try Enhlish Heritage prehistoric sites and Historic Scotland. You're bound to find something close to where you're going. Gwinva (talk) 21:52, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

You are a coffee addict. You would feel a lot better if you gave up all caffeine, as you would feel alert and refreshed all the time as if you had just drank a cup of coffee, and be instantly alert as soon as you wake up in the morning. You will feel groggy for a few days after giving up, but it is worth it. 80.2.201.59 (talk) 22:39, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

dock your pay

Just wanted to know the origin of this phrase. Is this a nautical term and how was it first used? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.21.238.180 (talk) 02:11, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

"Dock", in this sense, means to cut, and derives from a word relating to an animal's tail. Tails are often cut, or docked. This sense of cutting (or curtailing!) was transferred to other things, like pay: essentially, it means "cut your pay". Gwinva (talk) 02:31, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Not quite. It is used in the sense of a short term deduction, perhaps to pay for some damage. It does not refer to a long-term pay cut.86.211.108.138 (talk) 14:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)DT

Influences of Visual Arts/art in 21st century Architecture (modern houses, landmarks etc.)

Has visual arts/art had a postive influence to 21st Century Architecture (modern houses, landmarks etc.)? Has Visual Arts/art had much of an influence on architecture (modern houses, landmarks etc.) within the 21st Century as it has in previous centuries?

I just want to know some facts or maybe an answer for these questions. If someone could tell me some good sites or articles for these questions that'd be great. Thanks

Happysnaps (talk) 13:41, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Let's look at some. Firstly "positive" influence of art -- that's subjective so maybe we could make it "actual" -- has art influenced or been reflected in architecture (say, as it did at the turn of last century eg. the Vienna Secession, Gustav Klimt, decoration, art nouveau and design)? Looking at those elements for the 21st c, you could say it has. But I'd rather say, art and architecture reflect the thinking of the times and express it physically. As arts together they reflect and respond to current ideas. The impact of postmodernism is still around so that we can talk about art being analytical, aware of its own history and more flexible, so is architecture. Arts now include not just painting, architecture and sculpture, but design, craft, the computer. Image art permeates the internet and the internet invades architectural space and affects how we use that space, as well as how it is designed. A further inflluence is changing technologies so that something like CAD allows for more freedom in designing architecture.

Have you seen our articles on Deconstruction with links to Vorticism and Constructivism and then there's analytical cubism? Art used ideas from deconstruction and post-modernism to discuss place and space and decentralisation. Theories questioned the dominance of the museum (using installation works), and art went outside to public gardens or onsite in historical buildings -- engaging the buildings, then transcending them by taking the reproducible image via photography to the internet. Architecture also analyses itself so that architects of the domestic would be thinking about avoiding the dominance of the front

door, about not facing the street, and be more sympathetic to place (the site, the sun and green power); in public spaces, of being more transparent (lots of glass), of being green (especially in landscape architecture: conserving water by using wild grasses etc). I'm not sure if the big bucks are available to architects in the present world climate as they were for say Frank Gehry's Guggenheim in Bilbao, so architecture may be less about monumental display, impressing the public as it is about accommodating the public: personal scale, sympathy to the environment, flexibility of materials. I guess there are parallels, but in painting there's been a trend towards realism and existentialism over the past few years. There's a nice site here[1] for an overview of 20th century art movements to give you some background. Julia Rossi (talk) 08:06, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Architecture is itself a visual art form. Marco polo (talk) 12:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Now that you've changed the title, Happysnaps, are you asking a different question? It's better to join the discussion by expanding your question in text than changing the title and making nonsense of people's answers. I could give you examples but they were not 21st c buildings as you first specified. However, Minimalism is still big.Julia Rossi (talk) 03:59, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Where exactly is discussion? Happysnaps (talk) 12:02, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

On an internet forum maybe? (which is not here). We've provided you with facts, answers, links, even themes, now it's over to you to make the connections... Julia Rossi (talk) 12:33, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, thanks Happysnaps (talk) 14:55, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Crab boat "Ocean Spray"

In the early 1980's there was a crab boat out of Dutch Harbor, AK named the Ocean Spray. I am trying to find out if it is still in operation and if possible get a photo of this boat.208.98.128.54 (talk) 06:11, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

If AK = Alaska, there's this photography site[2] with two pics of Ocean Spray, commercial fishing vessel (scroll down, four row far right and second last row centre - use find command). You could get in touch with the photographer. Julia Rossi (talk) 09:05, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Plastic bag ban

Apparently South Australia will ban supermarket lightweight plastic bags by the end of the year and Australia is following (eventually). What are the green alternatives for disposing of household rubbish, then? Julia Rossi (talk) 12:44, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Paper bags are better, in my opinion, since they are biodegradable. They can also be reused more easily as trash bags since they, unlike plastic bags, can stand upright on their own and hold more volume. The bags should be brown, not dyed or bleached. As long as whoever cuts down the trees uses proper forest management techniques (regrowing trees at a rate that replaces those they cut down), the trees shouldn't suffer. Better yet, the bags can be made from recycled paper.

An even better choice (for shopping) is reusable canvas bags. StuRat (talk) 12:54, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think a reusable canvas bag is a good solution for Julia's question regarding disposal of household rubbish. Even with supermarket bags being banned, perhaps the stores will still sell bin liners? In any event, composting and recycling can drastically reduce the amount of rubbish produced. For the question below, our Biodegradable plastic article states "degradation of biodegradable plastic occurs very slowly, if at all, in a sealed landfill." There are also other concerns mentioned. --LarryMac | Talk 14:32, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm trying to look at the whole life cycle from production, to getting the bag at the store, to reusing it for garbage. The canvas bag would only be used for garbage once it was worn out. StuRat (talk) 16:10, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Aren't there such things as biodegradable plastic bags now? --Richardrj ^{talk email} 12:56, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Reusing a trash bag could be awkward. And perhaps unsanitary, unless there was a cleaning step involved. (Which would sink energy and water, of course.) APL (talk) 13:18, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

The reuse is from when you get it while shopping to using it to collect trash. You can also resuse a paper bag for trash again if it only contained dry items. StuRat (talk) 16:10, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

France moved away from throw-away plastic bags a year or so ago. Instead we can buy large and long-term use bags for a few cents. These can be exchanged, free, when necessary. The store then disposes of them. Unfortunately one forgets to take them in and so I now have about a dozen in my car ! But the scheme is good, and popular.86.211.108.138 (talk) 14:23, 18 June 2008 (UTC)DT

Plastic bags/canvas bags/paper bags it is difficult to say which is better without access to recycling-rates. The institute for lifecyle asssesment (think that's their name) look at the whole product lifecycle from cradle-to-grave (as it were). I'll try add the link later but can't find it right now. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 14:53, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I think some people haven't properly read the question, or perhaps are ignoring it. The OP is interested in what to use for disposing of rubbish, I presume primary bin liners and similar. I don't think many people will be interested in canvas bags or large long-term use bags for this purpose. I suspect LarryMac is right, bin-liners will still be available. (I already use bin-liners for my kitchen rubbish since the bin is too large for most plastic bags). As will large rubbish bags. The large rubbish bags may not be so important anyway, I'm not sure what things in Australia are like but at least here in NZ in Auckland, most councils use prepaid large rubbish bags which are definitely not going to disappear. Some others (and some independent contractors) use wheelie bins. Either way, the primary issue is bin-liners. N.B. These are of course not green but the general concern is people have too many and don't dispose of them properly meaning more waste then is necessary and plastic bags clogging up drains etc.Nil Einne (talk) 16:08, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, we have cats and a cat litter tray. We get through several plastic bags a day clearing it up. No way am I using over 1000 canvas bags a year for this. Paper would be possible if there were a convenient source of bags. -- SGBailey (talk)

The best solution is to rinse and dry plastic and glass recyclables and then put them in a recycling bin, to recycle paper waste, and to put organic waste in a compost container that you empty regularly into a larger compost bin and then rinse. (It helps to have a vegetarian diet, since meat scraps and other animal proteins don't compost so well, but having a dog or cat would solve that problem). Once you've separated out the organic wastes, your remaining trash should be fairly dry, or you can dry it out before disposing of it. Then you can dispose of your dry trash in paper bags without a danger of breeding microbes in your trash bin. As for cat litter, the greenest solution might be a pair of washable textile work gloves, which you could use to clean/change the litter. You could probably reuse these and/or have several of them that could accumulate before you wash them. The cat droppings presumably can go in the toilet. No need for plastic bags. Marco polo (talk) 17:28, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

This pair have a few tips [3] Mhicaoidh (talk) 22:01, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

It looks like there are some limits to recycling in a hands-on way for people who don't have a space resources. I guess I will go with finding a good source of strong paper bags or wrapping in newspaper. I used to think that plastic bags were being recycled after shopping with them when you used them for rubbish, imagining them buried for good in a dump somewhere. But when a local creek flooded a couple of times recently, I saw them hanging from the trees like a weird harvest. I guess someone will have to legislate against selling them as bin liners too. Julia Rossi (talk) 00:56, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Although you won't be able to get shopping bags with your shopping, you should still be able to buy plastic household garbage bags (including biodegradable ones) at your supermarket. I've seen them in both Woolies and Coles. Steewi (talk) 01:00, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Do the biodegradable plastic bags really break down? Awhile ago people nailed them to the shed roof, buried them and so on, but found they didn't dissolve. Wondering if there's been developments on that since. Julia Rossi (talk) 05:22, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd have thought you'll still be able to buy bin liners, as in plastic bags specifically made for the purpose of lining bins. Among other things, they tend to be thinner (meaning less plastic is used) than shopping bags. Noöne's going to legislate against them until an acceptable alternative is found. 79.66.85.219 (talk) 12:29, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

That and the fact that many communities (including mine) refuse to pick up trash unless it is bagged in large green or orange garbage bags tied securely at the top. No other method of disposal (and certainly not cardboard!!) is acceptable. (The bags can be placed inside trash cans, but if the trash inside the can isn't bagged they don't empty it.) --NellieBly (talk) 21:38, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

T shirts

Are there any websites you guys know of that sell shirts with weapons or Tank's on them? RoyalOrleans 14:03, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I found one at http://www.forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.php?t=54141 -- SGBailey (talk) 16:54, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Not what i was exactly looking for but thanks. Im suprised there arn't many websites that sell shirts like that. RoyalOrleans 18:08, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

You can always buy transfer paper. I've done t-shirts that way, and it works quite nicely. Just print onto the paper, and iron onto the top. Angus Lepper^{(T, C, D)} 22:34, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Increasing Credit Score

What is the absolutely the best way to increase your credit score if you have very poor credit? --Anthonygiroux (talk) 14:43, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Credit history#How credit rating is determined has some relevant information but I'm not sure there is an "absolute best way". Zain Ebrahim (talk) 15:01, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Assuming that you can afford it, I have heard financial advisers recommend taking out a small loan (unnecessarily) the immediately setting aside all the money required to pay it of, plus its interest. A common load size is $500 to $1000 US, then pay each payment on time, but do not pay it all at once. The objective of this is to show your creditor that you are: responsible, able to make payments on time, and can control your debt. After you have completed paying off the loan, consider waiting several months and taking out a larger loan, again setting aside money so you may pay it on schedule.

Watch to see if you think the (probable) increase in credit score is worth the expense, and repeat if you find it necessary. Please note that this process WILL take many years to complete. If this seems like it may work, please discuss this with your financial adviser before taking drastic action. Freedomlinux (talk) 15:47, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

You may also want to read Credit Score or Credit score (United States). Freedomlinux (talk) 15:50, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

(EC) I've sometimes heard people suggest you should consider increasing your credit limit on your credit card even if you don't need it because it can help as it shows you are able to control your spending and repay on time (meaning before you incur any interest). This is of course presuming you do have the discipline to control your spending and repay on time and that your credit limit is not so bad that you can't even get a credit card or an increase in credit limit. More generally making sure you pay your bills on time or better, early (particularly if there is an early payment discount) helps. Obviously, make sure you have a job. And if you can, stay away from 'instant finance' or other high interest money lenders, hire-purchase, getting a loan to buy a car (or other items which devalue) etc (if you do have any of these, make sure you repay them on schedule). Nil Einne (talk) 15:56, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

And there's actually a point where your credit score will be hurt by having too much credit card limit, but you probably won't reach it while you have bad credit (the example a financial person gave me was someone with $200,000 credit limit total spread out on a few cards, and the credit rating went down a bit). --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 16:05, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

There is no best way as it depends on why you have bad credit. Get you credit reports and examine them carefully. Look for things that are wrong and dispute them. But the best way is to make sure you are current with your creditors and stay that way. If you have a legitimate debt that can't be repaid because the creditor is defunt, dispute that too. There is no fast way, short of removing false or unpayable records on your credit report, to improve your score. Think of credit like you would think of trust. It takes a long time to earn it and a very short time to burn it. Leftus (talk) 20:02, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Laptop and linux

Moved to WP:RD/C#Laptop and linux Algebraist 16:00, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

crossword answer

What is a Mississippi quartet? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.65.165.161 (talk) 16:38, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

It's not that kind of clue. You need to think of something or someone that comes in fours and is associated with Mississippi somehow, or something like that. (By the way, I'm deliberately being a bit obscure there. I know the answer because I did a Google search for "Mississippi quartet", but I think it'd take away the fun if I said more. If I'd actually been doing the puzzle, I'd have needed to see some letters in the word before thinking of the right answer.) --Anonymous, 16:55 UTC, June 18, 2008.

I'm guessing and probably wrong, but is it 4 Eyes? Sorry.. couldn't help myself. Boomshanka (talk) 05:49, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

If you gave two guesses like that, your second one might be right. Further hint: the correct answer is in my previous sentence as a sequence of consecutive letters within one of the words. --Anon, 02:52 UTC, June 21, 2008.

Two Teleological Questions

Two pretty much unrelated questions:

Firstly, my watch (an analogue quartz watch, made by Richelieu) has a circular component around the dial, inscribed with the numbers 10, 20, 40 and 50 in the right places and with marks to indicate the other minutes on the circumference, which can be manually turned anticlockwise to any minute (ie it moves in steps one minute wide). What is its purpose?

Secondly, on several suit jackets I've seen there exists an inside pocket on the left-hand side, in roughly the same place as the outside pocket but smaller. The inside breast pockets I can understand as convenient, but it seems like a strange place to put a pocket. Is there some specific purpose to it?

Thanks for the help, Daniel (‽) 18:10, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

For question 1, I believe the component you are speaking of is called a "bezel" (a term for which we don't have an article, and which has several meanings, anyway). Please take a look at Diving watch for a photograph of a watch with an "elapsed time counter" bezel and see if that is similar to your timepiece. There is also a description of how this is used within the article. I'm not good at clothing design, so I'll pass on the second question. --LarryMac | Talk 19:09, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

The first thing I think is a bezel, which doesn't seem to have a wikipedia page. Ah well, I always thought it was for 'timing' things - you set it to the current time so you can see how much time has passed in minutes. But my watch doesn't have one...

The second, I use for my mobile phone (and seeing from your use of 'anticlockwise', I avoided saying 'cellphone'). It seems really convenient to me if this is indeed its 'true' purpose. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.125.225.157 (talk) 19:12, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the answers on the first question, so won't repeat. But for the second, I've always used this pocket for pens. Dismas|^(talk) 19:33, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the first item is indeed a bezel; thanks for teaching me a new word! As for the pocket, I suppose I'll have to become a sartorial pioneer and come up with my own purpose. Perhaps I shall start a new trend. Thanks, all.

Daniel (‽) 18:00, 19 June 2008 (UTC) I understood the pocket was inside for safety.

When I worked in a tailors' shop, it was always called a wallet pocket.hotclaws 05:16, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

meat

How long will meat last in your refrigerator before it goes bad? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.167.13.173 (talk) 20:10, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

There's a lot of variation. Type of meat? Exact cut? Raw or cooked? Sealed how? My personal rule of thumb for raw meats is the sell-by date plus three, but I don't have any sort of scientific backing for it. — Lomn 20:47, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

No single duration for all meat. The answer depends on: 1. the mass of the meat 2. the bacterial count 3. how long it has been since the animal was slaughtered 4. the temperature of your refrigerator 5. your olfactory and gustatory tolerance for meat breakdown products 6. presence of any substances or treatments to retard spoilage Dalembert (talk) 20:48, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Well generally I don't put meat in the refrigerator when its raw unless I'm going to use it either the very next day or the day I put in the refrigerator. It kinda also depends on your refrigerator. I find that my refrigerator has meat last a pretty good time (five days at the least) when I put it in the meat locker. When meat is cooked it has to kind of depend on the meat. Fat tends to rot first so if you have particular fatty piece of meat then it probably won't last that long. When it comes to cooked food I like to say its good for three days after you cook it. answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070520013423AAvvQEN - 46k - That might help a little. But I think everyone said everything else.

Always

Cardinal Raven (talk) 23:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Wait, your fat's rotting? 79.66.85.219 (talk) 12:07, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Couldn't find a good simple reference, but as a rule: the more processed it is, the less it will last. Sausages, patties, ground meat (mince in some countries) involves working with the meat, temperature variation, moisture and mixing of various products, all good opportunities to introduce bacteria and induce spoilage. Respect the use-by date. Slabs of meat such as steak are much safer, indeed steak is sterile on the inside. You can let the use by date slide a few days and it will still be fine. If in doubt, check with your cat first. Mhicaoidh (talk) 11:16, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't Mess up the Rolling Groove

Good evening. I love Katamari Damashi games especially the ones on the Playstation 2. I have a few questions about Katamari. What drugs were they on when they made this game? Also, what is missing in Beautiful Katamari? I've noticed while playing Beautiful Katamari that I am not enjoying it as much as the other games. It seems like Beautiful Katamari is missing something. I like the way the Playstation 2 games played. In Beautiful Katamari all you have been doing is rolling in a city. Where is the odd places? You know in We Love Katamari they had garden, a snow level, an earth level, etc. There is only a city. I don't want to just roll in a city for every goal I am suppose to do. Then they have you find items that you can't find in the level. They say find expensive metal. You only find a few expensive metal stuff in that level. Why didn't they design the way they did with the other games? I remember in the first Katamari it was difficult not because you couldn't find the bear they were asking for because there was so many bears and you wanted pick up the biggest bear. I also remember giving you the ones were you just rolled up and got bigger, then they had the challenges like make a snow man head, and then they had collect us much as you can in a certain time. Where is that? Where is the rotation? Then they give impossible time limits to get things. I'm suppose to get 500m in nine minutes(I usually get to four hundred meters then I only have fifty six seconds to get the rest). It would have been much easier if they made the time not go by so fast.(Even so I still get extremely larger then what they ask me when the time limit goes so fast.) All they did was suck the fun out of what use to be a good game by doing whatever they did in Beautiful Katamari. They have ruined my Rolling Groove totally. Thank you for answering my question and sifting through my rant. Have a positively wonderful evening.Rem Nightfall (talk) 22:17, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

The Reference Desk is not a soapbox for posting rants. Is there an answerable question here? — Lomn 22:42, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I will watch what I put on the reference desk.Rem Nightfall (talk) 01:37, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Cheap Bike Parts

Where are some cheap bike parts in Spokane, WA?

I have already googled some stores down, but i just need a few parts —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ratheinea (talk • contribs) 23:22, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

<moved from humanities desk>

Bicycle or Motorcycle? Dismas|^(talk) 00:39, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Here are the hum desk contributions:

Where are some cheap bike parts in Spokane, WA?

I have already googled some stores down, but i just need a few parts —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ratheinea (talk • contribs) 23:22, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

What does this have to do with the humanities? Wrad (talk) 23:26, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Where else was i supposed to post? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ratheinea (talk • contribs) 23:37, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Miscellaneous, possibly? Algebraist 23:46, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps we should humor him and discuss the philosophical, cultural, and religious implications of cheap bicycle parts ? :-) StuRat (talk) 00:31, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Already well covered by Robert M. Pirsig, amongst others. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:40, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok I am sorry I didn't mean to post in humanities. The miscellaneous blog wasn't working. Bicycle Parts.

June 19

Rice

Yeah I'm the only man you'll ever find interested in that white grain. Why do westerners like their rice not clumped, but Easterners(I hope that is what you call most Asian cultures and whoever else likes their rice clumped) like their rice clump? Personally, clump rice is the best there is no mess to clean up. How do I clump rice the way Easterners do?Cardinal Raven (talk) 00:49, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

After cooking, stuff the rice in a cup then tap the cup lightly to put the rice in the plate. Now you have a measured and clumped rice.--Lenticel ^(talk) 01:18, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Well more or less I mean sticky. Cause the moment I began to eat the measured clump of rice it will just fall into a nice little pile. Also I want to eat my rice with chopsticks and just measuring won't do much when you want to eat it with chopsticks.I guess I'm asking how do I get my rice sticky enough to eat with chopsticks?Cardinal Raven (talk) 01:27, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh... we don't use chopsticks here. Glutinous rice or malagkit is usually too "tasty" accompany vegetables or meat. Filipinos prepare it differenly as a seperate dish such as bebinca, suman and champorado.--Lenticel ^(talk) 02:48, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

If you're referring to "sticky rice", which you can roll into a ball (such as in Thai or Lao cooking), then see Glutinous rice. It's a specific type. (That article also has many links that you mind find useful in tracking down types of rice.) Gwinva (talk) 01:34, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know why. But, I'd have to agree. I don't like my rice sticky, but they do in the Philippines were I have spent a considerable amount of time. Useight (talk) 01:37, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Part of it is for practical reasons. Glutinous rice - as hinted at above - is far easier to eat with chopsticks than other rice. And there's nothing better than a hot place of satay beef on a bed of rice, eaten with chopsticks. Yum. Grutness...wha? 02:04, 19 June 2008 (UTy

Glutinous rice, such as you'd have in a Thai restaurant, is one way to eat sticky rice. Another is the way Hawaii locals like it, which is to start with medium-grain calrose rice. If you have a rice cooker, use about 1.5 parts water for every 1 part rice. Perfect sticky rice-ball quality rice almost every time. If you're cooking on the cooktop, cook in a small pot on low, and use about twice as much water as rice. Mitchell k dwyer (talk) 05:45, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Generally Long-grain rice is the loose type generally used for fried rice, which absorbs the least amount of water. Then you have the Medium/Short grain rice which clump and can be eaten with chopsticks, but not sticky like glutinous rice. This is the type I (south Chinese) normally eat, and it's also used in Sushi's. Then there's glutinous rice, which is very very sticky and leaves much more a mess than the other 2 types of rice, and generally only used in special dishes in Chinese cuisine. Westerners may be accustomed to the fried-rice style rice and thus like them more. To the OP: depending on what you're eating you don't necessarily need to eat rice with chopsticks. In Chinese cuisine the chopsticks are used as a scoop to scoop it up in bowls. --antilived^{T | C | G} 08:22, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure OP didn't mean glutinous rice, but trying to cook long grain rice to be sticky, or short/medium grain rice without it being so dry, so I think only Antilived hit the mark. If you're cooking with long grain, switch to short/medium grain, and if you're using short/medium grain, try adding a little bit more water (like in a rice cooker, I add 1 parts rice with 1.5 parts of water, and it comes out not too hard and not too sticky). But if you're preparing it in a pot, I have actually never made rice in a pan other than boxed rice. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 15:59, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and I forgot. In some rice cookers, it's better to let it sit even after it's done for awhile (like 30 minutes), and it usually dries the surfaces and leaves the rice itself moist and sticky still. But I'm not sure if this only applies to old style rice cookers. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 16:02, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

In almost ALL rice-cookers is it better to let the rice sit for twenty minutes or so (depending on how much rice you've made). The rice cooker knows when to shut itself off based on the temperature of the pot (when most of the water has steamed off, the pot itself gets hotter). The manufacturers of rice-cookers count on your allowing the rice to sit. The original poster has specifically used the word onigiri, and I submit that the rice he or she is looking for is most definitely medium-grain calrose rice, such as I described in my first response.Mitchell k dwyer (talk) 03:23, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

First off I was thinking of buying a rice cooker. Second off I wanted clumpy or sticky rice because not only do I want to eat my rice with chopsticks I wanted to make certain things such as onigiri and other stuff that requires my rice not to fall apart. Maybe I should have asked in the very beginning do I have to have special rice to do that? Because even that question is answered. Personal reminder, add all questions. All well I like my answers so its okay.Cardinal Raven (talk) 16:06, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

As to your question about why Westerners don't like their rice clumped: the types of rice grown in the West before trade opened up were naturally less prone to clumping, because they had less starch in their outer layers. Westerners also associate clumpy food with poor preparation, especially with respect to savory food: sweet food can be sticky, but clumpy rice is up there with lumpy mashed potatoes and stuck-together pasta - the texture was simply "wrong". And so many Western (or westernized) rice dishes like paella, pilaf and casserole require rice that doesn't glom together. --NellieBly (talk) 21:14, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Just soak the long grain rice in water for 10-20mins and drain, add more water (more than you usually would) and cook slowly until the water is just about evaporated. It will then be 'sticky'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.20.19.4 (talk) 15:58, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Not all Asian cultures have equally sticky rice. For example, Indian Basmati rice is waaay less sticky than Japanese. 74.14.117.135 (talk) 01:58, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

A couple of Continental exceptions to fluffy and free also exist in dishes using arborio rice, such as paella and risotto

Wikipedia Hierachy

I've always been curious to know the hierarchy of WP. From what I understand, the account hierarchies goes like this, increasing status:

• Banned user
• Unregistered user
• Registered user
• Bot
• Administrator/SysOp
• Checkuser and Oversight
• Bureaucrat
• Steward
• Developer
• Autoconfirmed/founder

Is this correct? Are Checkusers and Oversights on the same level? Thanks. Acceptable (talk) 02:29, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

No user is "above" another, however, I suppose if you wanted to sort by number of rights each account type has, I definitely wouldn't put a bot "above" a registered user. Bots don't think for themselves. Bots can't comment in discussions. It is true that bureaucrats, stewards, checkusers, and oversighters can do things that an admin cannot, they don't carry more weight in a discussion to find consensus. Useight (talk) 05:40, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

You've left off autoconfirmed (and founder, I suppose). Algebraist 06:53, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

In terms of who carries more clout in a discussion, in between "Registered user" also breaks down, in my experience, into "Registered user with more than a handful of edits and a user page" and "Registered user with a handful of edits or no userpage". Also you left Jimbo off the list—he is sort of his own category, in terms of policymaking and clout in discussions. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 12:33, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Number of edits certainly counts. I once saw a bunch of admins refuse to acknowledge the vote of a user because he/she had fewer than 500 main-space edits. I thought it was ridiculous but the fact that it counts remains. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 17:44, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Nobody has more "clout" in a discussion, though naturally you can expect admins etc to have more common sense (Well, maybe not :-p), though there are plenty of people, like say, User:SandyGeorgia who are just noraml users and are very well respected, more so than many admins (I suppose admins make a lot of enemies...)--Serviam (talk) 23:50, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Nobody is supposed to have more clout in a discussion. Unfortunately, many Admins pretty much ignore anyone who isn't at least an Admin. This is because, if they piss off another Admin they can be blocked, but they have nothing to fear from pissing off ordinary users. Really just another example of power corrupting. I've had an Admin outright tell me my opinion meant nothing an AN/I, because I wasn't an Admin. This inequity could be resolved if we got rid of the concept of "Admin for life", which means, as long as an Admin never upsets another Admin, they can engage in behavior which would have prevented their election to Admin, violate promises they made when the vote occured, etc., and still remain an Admin. If they had to periodically stand for election they would show more respect to the users, or they would be gone. StuRat (talk) 15:42, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I can say from my own experience as someone who has an admin account, a few non-admin accounts, and often edits from an IP, that who you officially "are" does matter in most discussions. If I post concerns with something about how Wikipedia is run from an IP address, no matter how wonderfully worded it is, it has significantly less impact than if I do it from the admin account. If I apply "normal reasoning" to a problem it has less impact than if I "reason through specific policy decisions"—lots of acronyms and other signs that I am "in the know". Is it a problem that such inequity exists? Not in my opinion. Yes, it goes against the digital populism ideal of Wikipedia, and it in many instances seems to me to calcify the Wikipedia bureaucracy, but I think it is fairly unavoidable, and in the end things basically still work.

Additionally, as StuRat says, banning policies can be rather draconian. Slip up as an admin or an established user, and you'll be given a little time-out, a few reprimands, etc. Slip up as a brand new user or an IP, expect to be banned permanently. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 16:30, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

This page lists out the different privileges and indeed shows bots as having more privileges (well, kind of) than standard users. Matt Deres (talk) 04:41, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Trying To Find a Pair of Glasses Frames Like These

50's-style scientist glasses. Like #6 on this page:

http://www.propspecs.com/glasses/rocknroll.htm

Unfortunately, that site is just for "prop" frames, so I can't really get them from there. I need to either find actual vintage frames or a modern version that looks pretty much the same. E^robson (T^alk) 04:00, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Nothing to stop you replacing the pane with prescriptions. On closer inspection, they're an actual frames company using that name for their marketing niche. My messy post, Julia Rossi (talk) 05:27, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Second hand, vintage or charity shops, garage boot sales and antique fairs will be time consuming but you will end up finding them. 200.127.59.151 (talk) 15:37, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Dare I suggest... eBay? Search for "horn rim frames" there. Warning: vintage frames like that ain't always cheap. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 19:12, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Velpeau’s Law

I recently came across the term “Velpeau’s Law”, which is apparently used to describe the experience of a doctor seeing a patient with a very rare condition, then a short time later has another, entirely unrelated, patient with the same rare condition. This was in a book about synchronicity. I can’t find anything about Velpeau's Law on the web, and the only Velpeau we have an article on says nothing about it either.

Then, a few days later, I was reading a different book, on the subject of things people said that they might have wished they hadn’t said, and I found this quote: "The abolishment [sic] of pain in surgery is a chimera. It is absurd to go on seeking it." (Dr Alfred Velpeau, 1839). Our article confirms he did indeed have scepticism about pain-free surgery, so I can nail that one down.

I thought finding these 2 references to the previously unheard-of (by me) Velpeau in a short space of time was a nice example of both synchronicity and Velpeau’s Law in a non-medical context. But that aside, is the term “Velpeau’s Law” generally used by the medical fraternity, and does it originate, as I assume, from Alfred Velpeau, or from another Velpeau? -- JackofOz (talk) 07:11, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Until a Velpeaunik drops by, I'd call it occult. You're a spooky possum, Julia Rossi (talk) 12:43, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I've never heard the term, but I only work with MDs—I'm not one myself. I can find only one web reference to Velpeau's law (in this blog entry) where it is defined exactly as JackOfOz describes.

Really, though, the phenomenon can stem from a number root causes. It can arise purely through a combination of psychological priming and a misunderstanding of statistics. Consider that there are some thousands of different diseases which are known to modern medicine. Over the course of Doctor X's career, he sees thousands upon thousands of patients, most of whom have quite common ailments. A small group contract rare and unusual diseases. Let's say that Dr. X sees fifty patients with rare diseases; for simplicity's sake, let's say that among them they contract twenty-five unique ailments, with two cases of each.

Sprinkle those cases randomly over Dr. X's career, and most of the pairs will end up years, even decades, apart. A few, by pure chance and coincidence, will end up very close together in time—almost certainly the same year, possibly the same month or week. (The odds of a coincidence are actually quite a bit higher than one's intuition might suggest—see birthday problem.) Dr. X says to himself, "Well isn't that odd...two such unusual cases just a month apart, and I haven't seen any others in twenty years of work." Of course, he doesn't think about the twenty-four other rare diseases which were evenly distributed over his career.

That leaves aside the effect of cases that are related in a way that the doctor doesn't know about: two strangers who sat next to each other on the bus; the mailman who passed a genetic defect on to the lonely housewife's son. This analysis also neglects the possibility that there were other cases of the rare disease in Dr. X's career, but he missed the diagnosis, the diagnosis was made by a specialist but the paperwork was lost, or Dr. X forgot about the case after ten or twenty years. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:08, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

That blog is more significant than you know, Ten. The book I referred to above, where I first came across the term, was in part a collection of contributions from people from all over the world about their experiences of synchronicity. (For those interested, the book was ‘’Soul Moments: Marvelous Stories of Synchronicity- Meaningful Coincidences from a Seemingly Random World’’. It was put together by Phil Cousineau, with a foreword by Robert A. Johnson). This particular story was written by one Roberto Takaoka, a doctor working in Sao Paolo, Brazil. The blog you located is written by Walter Whitton Harris, who lives in, you guessed it, Sao Paolo, Brazil. Takoaka's story was dated 16-22 November 1993, and the blog was written December 2007: so unless Takaoka and Harris know each other, "Velpeau’s Law" seems to be term used by Sao Paolians and not much elsewhere. How odd. Yet another bit of sychronicity. I agree with everything you say about the scientific/rational analysis of these coincidences; but from the metaphysical angle, they are indeed meaningful. Just what they mean, though ...... -- JackofOz (talk) 07:31, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

For a related adage named after a person, I only found Littlewood's law on WP. ---Sluzzelin talk 11:33, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

South Africa + Restaurants + Take-aways etc.

Please please

I need some help?

I am trying to do some Market Research and I need some information as follows:

How many Restaurants are there in South Africa? How many fast-food outlets are there in South Africa? How many liquor stores are there in South Africa? etc

please could you put me in the right direction?

Thank you thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.208.40.15 (talk) 08:17, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

The Yellow Pages at http://www.yellowpages.co.za/search.jsp?query=Restaurants&location= may give you some idea on the numbers of these types of commercial enterprises. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 11:37, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Problem is, not everyone is in the Yellow Pages. I would guess a search on the CIPRO page would give you a more accurate result, as everyone has to register at the DTI. Otherwise give Markinor a call and I'm sure they would be helpful in guiding you. Sandman30s (talk) 12:40, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Insects

Are all insects attracted to light, or is it just some families/genera, or just some individual species? Thanks in advance. 80.123.210.172 (talk) 08:49, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

No. Some, for example Woodlice and Cockroaches, move away from light because they have negative phototaxis, and some for example moths and flies are attracted to light because they have positive phototaxis. D0762 (talk) 10:37, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't really answer the question though... If I'm following correctly... Why then would one species have negative phototaxis and another have positive? Dismas|^(talk) 16:59, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

The behaviour of moths is discussed at Moth#Attraction to light. Woodlice live mostly in the dark, so I assume their light-aversion serves to keep them in their habitat and away from the eyes of predators. It might also stop them drying out. Algebraist 17:25, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. Woodlice need a damp environment because they breathe through gills. They are also detritivores which means they mainly eat dead plant matter that would need dampness to decompose well. In fact, Woodlice are not insects at all but crustaceans (they have seven pairs of legs, whereas insects have three). Generally, insects which move away from light do so to keep cool, damp, and out of view from predators, while those that move towards light do so to keep warm or for navigation. D0762 (talk) 19:35, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Becoming a microbiologist.

Let's say I want to become a microbiologist, but I don't know how. Where do I start? What degrees and/or studies would I need? How can I become a good microbiologist? Thanks in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ann Caitlyn Johnson (talk • contribs) 09:18, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Become a biologist, then get a mad scientist to use his shrink ray on you ? StuRat (talk) 09:51, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

But seriously, first you will need a good background in science and math, with, of course, the emphasis on biology. Then, in your later years at college, you can narrow the focus of your studies to microbiology. StuRat (talk) 09:51, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Assuming you want to be a proper researcher and not just a lab technician, then you pretty much have to get a PhD. I am not sure which country you are in but the general idea is the same, I'm in the UK and I'm not a microbiologist but I am a biologist which is close. At high school you will want to specialise in science subjects. I did Maths, Chemistry and Biology at A-Level (16-18) add Physics if you want. Do an undergraduate degree in Biology, it needn't be Microbiology specifically as you will probably get to pick the modules that interest you. A 2.1 (the second top grade roughly a B) or better is generally required if you want to do a PhD. I personally think that if you are certain you are going to do a PhD then a Masters is a bit of a waste of time and money so I would recommend to go straight from undergraguate to PhD. Find a poject and a lab you think you will enjoy enough to stick at it. Once you have your PhD, get a job, hey presto! you are a microbiologist.Franmars (talk) 11:29, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

To clarify Franmars, I think when he/she says go straight to a PhD I believe he/she means that you need to apply to a PhD program. That is the way it is in the US and I don't think the UK is that different. After your undergraduate education you can apply to either a terminal Masters program or a PhD program. Terminal masters programs tend to be for people who have not distinguished themselves in the undergraduate career and will need a bit more time to develop their skills/recommendations/resume before applying to a PhD program. At the terminal masters program you will work towards your masters only. Whereas in a PhD program you will first get your masters then work towards a PhD. I know that information about terminal programs is true for the US, but it may be less true in other countries, so be sure to verify this if you are in another country.

If you have not started your undergraduate education I would highly recommend you go to your local library and try to find a book that deals with "careers in biology" or another related book (or buy one from Amazon or local equivalent). They tend to explain what is generally required before you apply to graduate school, the types of courses you need to take, the GPA requirements, any standardized tests, what you should expect from the PhD program.

Also you may want to try to find a mentor of sorts at the school you do your undergrad work at. Ask them what needs to be done before you apply to school. Often times professors are willing to help students out who show an interest. And one last recommendation, again this is true for US universities but I don't know how widespread this is, you may want to try to work/intern in research labs as an undergrad, even if it is grunt work (cleaning slides or equipment, setting up basic equipment). There are several benefits: experience doing actual science, vivid examples of how to operationalize a question, a good recommendation, maybe (if you're lucky) your name on the tail end of some paper.--droptone (talk) 12:30, 19 June 2008 (UTC)--

I think things are somewhat different in much of the Commonwealth, including I think the UK. A PhD is a PhD and it is rare you will start off with a Masters. However to do a PhD in the UK and in a number of Commonwealth countries, you will usually need to have either done a Masters, or a (probably first class) Honours degree as part of your B.Sc. In the UK, an Honours is fairly automatic provided you do well enough. In Australia and NZ it isn't for most science degrees, you have to do an extra year which usually involves some postgraduate study and research. Note that in a lot of the Commonwealth, PhDs are intended to be completed within 3 years (even if few achieve that). You are therefore usually expected to have some idea of what you are doing when you start your PhD and will likely have a problem coping if not. This is I believe unlike the US where as Droptone mentioned, you often start off with a Masters which becomes a PhD hence you are not really expected to have much experience in a real lab (although it doesn't hurt) and are usually I believe given up to 5 years to complete your PhD. Nil Einne (talk) 12:13, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

That isn't necessarily so. In biological sciences in the UK, the lower threshold for acceptance to a PhD-track program is usually a 2:1 Honours degree, not a first class degree. Moreover, in the UK one almost always actually registers for a MPhil, then after one year transfers to a PhD. For most PhD-track students this a mere formality, so its often assumed one registers immediately for a PhD. But that is rarely the case. Rockpocket 00:16, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

As Franmars said (at least in the U.S.) it is often not necessary or desirable to get a Master's on the way to getting a PhD - just do the Phd and get on to the post-doc work. Rmhermen (talk) 18:52, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, often at a certain point in your Ph.D. studies, they'll give you a Master's just for filing the appropriate form. For me I think it was "complete 11 (quarter) classes and pass two quals, one of them being Algebra". Couldn't see any reason not to file the form. It struck me that if what you really wanted was the Master's, the quickest way to get it was to enter the Ph.D. program. --Trovatore (talk) 08:51, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

New Olympic Sporting Events

How many countries does a sport like say lacrosse need to be played in before it can become partof the Olympic Games? 71.231.122.22 (talk) 09:58, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

It's at the discretion of the IOC and its subcommittees. There is not fixed requirement of the sort you suggest. — Lomn 13:00, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

It also isn't just a matter of number of countries, but also how widespread the sport is. If it's only played on one or two continents, but in few other places in the world, the IOC will generally not consider it. I've often wondered why roller skating competitions haven't been made Olympic sports. They're big in the Pan Am Games, and I can't imagine roller skating isn't big outside of the Western Hemisphere. Corvus cornix_talk 17:54, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Sports need to be widespread and there has to be a well developed international competition calendar, including world championships, etc. This is where Women's ski jumping had issues with getting into the Winter Olympics. - Eron^Talk 19:20, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Number of countries is but one of many hurdles a sport has to go through. part of the problem is that, for logistics reasons, the IOC has a strict limit on the number of sports played at the Olympics. even sports played in many countries with well-developed international competitions struggle (cricket, for instance, is played at international level in over 100 countries and in all continents bar Antarctica - from Estonia to Afghanistan, Brazil to Japan - and has had world championships since the 1970s, but it consistently fails in its bids to be adopted as an Olympic sport). Because of the limit, a sport has to be dropped before a new one is adopted, and that causes massive lobbying among both sports. Grutness...wha? 00:53, 20 June 2008 (UTC) (Roller skating is an organised sport? Who knew?)

This link [4] from the article Olympic Sports. Shows that baseball and softball were voted off the Olympic programme after the Athens 2004 Olympics. There was a consequent vote to nominate two sports to fill the spaces, Karate, Roller Sports, Rugby, Squash and Golf were the options and Squash and Karate won. However, neither succeeded in a subsequent vote to add them to the summer games. So it seems for the 2012 games there will be two fewer sports. Franmars (talk) 08:44, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Roller skating has speed events and artistic events just like ice skating does. Corvus cornix_talk 17:50, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Polska

I wish to ask a question on the Polish wiki ref desk, and thus get replies from Poles. Can some one please give me a link. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 13:06, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

The sidebar at Wikipedia:Reference desk has an interwiki link to pl:Wikipedia:Pytania merytoryczne. I don't read Polish, but that appears to be the right place. Algebraist 15:37, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Bull ring stunt

What are the origins of the stunt where a person stands inside a bull ring blind folded and smoking a cig? I've seen this stunt pulled in one of the Jackass movies and in a Tom and Jerry cartoon. --Endless Dan 15:13, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Bull games go back through history. The cigaratte stunt is just a gimmick. Unless sacrifice is involved they operate much as an American rodeo with catchers (or whatever they are called) monitoring events. In the south of France the bull games are not lethal. Ribbons and cockades are tied to the bull's horns and young men leap to secure them. A cash value is placed on each. The bulls play more often than the individual men and so get very skilful at avoiding. Sometimes a man is injured, but very very seldom a bull.86.209.154.30 (talk) 14:03, 20 June 2008 (UTC)DT

Of course, the blindfold and cigarette is the standard protocol for someone executed by firing squad, hence the joke in Jackass is they're acknowledging that it's suicidal. That movie is the only time I know of it being paired with a bullring stunt. --D. Monack | talk 04:50, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Sport gender question

Watching the Germany-Portugal game in the football European Championship 2008 and thinking about my earlier question about samba carnivals made me realise something. Why are the players in these sports championships always invariably all men? Surely women like to play sports as well. Why are not half of the players men and half women? Of course, given that football is a contact sport, mixed men and women would not probably work out. But why are there not separate men's games and women's games in the championships? Why do only men play all games? Is it because women are generally not interested in such tough contact sports, or because the longer history of men's sport has made the men's teams better players and more famous? I was just thinking about how I still had not got a real answer to why samba carnivals only feature women, and then I realised the opposite is true for sports championships. JIP | Talk 19:08, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Women do play these sports, and they have their own championships; see FIFA Women's World Cup for example. Women also play competitive ice hockey, rugby union, basketball, etc. Your question may more be about why the women's events are not as popular or well-known. - Eron^Talk 19:16, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, that certainly helps. If there are women's championship games too, why are they not played in combination with the men's championship games? Why do people get all excited about the men's games and only pay attention to the women's games for the explicit sake of equality? On the other hand, I still haven't got an answer to why samba carnivals only feature women. But that is another question. I have realised I have all this time subconsciously been thinking it's all right when only men do something, but when only women do something, it raises my curiosity. This is bad for gender equality and I must try to be more objective. JIP | Talk 19:31, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

You are essentially describing the phenomena of gender roles and expectations. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 21:09, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

It's not just about gender expectations. In most sports, the top male players are enormously better than the top female players. Thus, the top male event is the top event in the sport. It's natural for this to be the thing people are most interested in. The first example that comes to mind of a sport where this is not the case is eventing. Here women are at no particular disadvantage, and compete alongside men (in the Olympics for example). Algebraist 21:15, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Tennis is an exception to that. Men are infinitely better but women still get a relatively large share of the popularity. I wonder why that might be. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 21:37, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

First off I have to say how much I hate sports. Its just a couple of guys chasing after a ball on nice green grass...whoopy!(no offense to you.) Part of the answer to your question has to do with history. Woman in history were only viewed as property.(I don't know how to phrase that better.) Certain cultures and religions in modern time still believe woman as nothing. One of the religious groups that believes woman aren't part of society are the Muslims.

www.thenoor.org/muslimwomaninsociety.htm - 35k

Now I'm not sure if those historical views carry on today even in sports. So I looked up some stuff. I don't want sound like an expert when I only know half of what I am saying.

www.womenssportsfoundation.org...Equity-Issues...Values-and-Sports.aspx - 31k

www.accessmylibrary.com - 32k

So I help all the links work, they help, and I at least answered some of your question correctly.Cardinal Raven (talk) 20:39, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't wish to side track this into a debate, but surely you could have provided your views on the question without making an overly generalized criticism of one religion. Many religions and cultures, to this day, fail to accord women equal status with men. - Eron^Talk 22:44, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the "women used to be viewed as property" thing is a factor so much as the physical fact that men tend to be stronger. So much of competitive sports depends on muscular strength of one kind or another that people expect the top male players to automatically be better than the top females. And spectators usually want to watch the best players.

Of course, there is also a stereotyping issue as mentioned above, i.e. the belief that doing sports and watching sports both are or should be things mostly done by men, which is somewhat self-perpetuating.

I can certainly think of sports where women's championships are covered in much the way that ment's are: curling, figure skating, gymnastics, and tennis come to mind for starters. But all of them are non-contact sports and some are the kind where the score involves artistic judgement, which may be considered a different kind of endeavor altogether.

--Anonymous, 21:30 UTC, June 19, 2008.

Beach Volleyball? Nil Einne (talk) 12:20, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

One of the issues has to do with the depth of the field. For a variety of reasons - cultural, social, psychlogical, physiological, who knows - there still seems to be a broad-based mindset that certain sports are appropriate for boys, and certain for girls. Pretty much all of the contact sports, and many of the physically active team sports, are still considered boys sports. More agressive or demanding individual sports are also seen this way. Parents who choose a sport for their child gravitate towards the sports that are considered gender-appropriate. Children participating in sport also tend to express interest in the sports that they see are gender-appropriate. As a result, there are many more boys playing sports like ice hockey, American football, or rugby union than there are girls. If we assume that only a tiny fraction of the children who take up a sport have the capacity, skill, and drive to succeed at the highest levels, then this effect is multiplied as they progress through the ranks.

For example, If 0.01% of children who take up ice hockey have the potential to be national team players, and if the sport is taken up by girls at 10% the rate at which it is taken up by boys, then for every 100,000 boys who start to play ice hockey, we will see 10 national calibre eighteen year old men - and one woman. As a result, in many of these sports there are not sufficient numbers of girls and women in the sport to sustain high level national and international level competition.

These trends are changing, albeit slowly. In North America, for example, soccer is becoming more and more a gender neutral sport. I've also noted anecdotally that, in Canada at least, triathlon is a very equitable sport at the developmental levels. - Eron^Talk 13:46, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

In the US, at least, women's figure skating and women's gymnastics are much more popular than their male equivalents. For example, the US Women's Figure Skating Championships are shown live in prime time TV, whereas men's and pairs are shown on tape delay, days later, and usually on Saturday morning or afternoon. Corvus cornix_talk 17:55, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

June 20

www.penisaur.com

Does anyone own this website? I'd check by going to the site myself but I'm scared it'll give me a virus.

Apparently, nobody owns it yet... Dismas|^(talk) 00:41, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Indeed. So, happy blogging! - Eron^Talk 00:43, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Too bad both penisaurus.com and penisaurusrex.com are taken. (Note that both are porn sites.) By the way, an easy way to check if someone owns it—in fact, a much more reliable one than "going to the site"—is just checking on a DNS registrar, like GoDaddy.com. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 01:45, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Dishwashing detergent

I have a completely ordinary dishwasher, which has in the usual fashion two detergent cups: one open, one with a lid. The "Normal" wash cycle actually fills the cabinet with water, sprays it around for a while, then pumps it out three times; it is during the second and longest of these cycles that the closed detergent cup opens, and the bulk of the washing happens.

If I leave the open cup empty, then the first cycle is called the Pre-Rinse cycle, and its function is primarily to knock off the loose stuff. But, if I put detergent in the open cup, then the first cycle is called a Pre-Wash cycle, and presumably does a better job of loosening up some of the dried-on crud. In either case, at the end of this cycle the dirty water and whatever came loose is pumped out and the main wash cycle begins.

So, (finally) my question: suppose I wish to use only one spoonful of detergent. Am I better off dividing it in half or 40/60 or whatever, so that some detergent is used up and discarded and then replaced by "fresh"; or should I leave the small cup empty, let plain water do whatever it can and have the full shot of detergent applied only in the second cycle?

(Please do not advise to RTFM -- or the fine Box in this case -- as I believe the goal of detergent manufacturers is to sell as much detergent as possible.)

P.S. This is not a homework question, I know that's a hot issue for some people :-). --Danh, 70.59.79.230 (talk) 00:44, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I will suggest RTFMing anyway -- not the detergent manual but the dishwasher manual. Alternatively, experiment. At worst you'll get dishes that aren't clean and you have to run the thing another time. --Anonymous, 05:20 UTC, June 20/08.

Morrowind IV: Oblivion

Good evening. I am having a bit of a issue here. Its hard to trust the little box. Morrowind IV: Oblivion has a Game of the Year Edition that comes with all the other expansion. Will I need Xbox Live to use the expansion packs or are the expansions been put into the game on one disk? Also, how much is the cost of Game of the Year Edition compared to just the game? Thank you for answering my question. I really appreciate it. Have a positively wonderful evening.Rem Nightfall (talk) 01:35, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Morrowind and Oblivion are different games. Do you mean The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind or The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion? Raven4x4x (talk) 03:57, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Elder Scrolls: Oblivion...I'm sorry I call the game Morrowind all the time I get confused and then I confuse other people. So I mean the fourth game Oblivion.Rem Nightfall (talk) 04:04, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

You don't need Xbox Live to play the expansions if you buy the Game of the Year version. The price difference on amazon.com at least is $30 - see [5] and [6]. However, they may be priced differently at other retailers. -Elmer Clark (talk) 01:17, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

baseball game question

So I was just watching the College World Series between LSU and North Carolina. It was the top of the first inning, and North Carolina was leading 2-0, with the bases loaded and 1 out. The game was immediately suspended following severe lightning storms. Does the game reset the following day with no score? I heard that if less than five innings were complete, the game restarts, but if five or more innings are complete the game is called. Anyone know the ruling on this?76.194.67.13 (talk) 03:11, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

That's what it is in the majors, where teams usually have multiple opportunities to make up a called game. However, according to this story ([7]), the game will be resumed Friday, which makes sense for an event that has to end on schedule. Mitchell k dwyer (talk) 07:41, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Bezel II

after reading the above question on bezels, I'm prompted to ask about my watch. It's from a gift from Mazda and it has a counterclockwise rotating dial with the code: reading from the left (3 letter break) POL LON PAH GAI MOW OXB NMI DSC RAA HKG IYO SYO NWW SKI MOY HNL ANC LAY BEN MEX MYC CCS RIO

what does this mean? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.240.203.201 (talk) 03:19, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

My guess...it's a secret decoder ring!!! Err...watch. Secret decoder watch. Yeah. Woo hoo! --Prestidigitator (talk) 04:57, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, either the manufacturer has goofed badly or or you have misread/miscopied several of the letters and left out one 3-letter code; and, in addition, the watch is out of date.

The "HNL ANC LAY BEN MEX MYC CCS RIO" part obviously should read "HNL ANC LAX DEN MEX NYC CCS RIO", standing for: Honolulu, Anchorage, Los Angeles, Denver, Mexico City, New York, Caracas, and Rio de Janeiro, whose time zones (ignoring daylight saving time) until recently were respectively 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, and 3 hours west of UTC. Interpreting and correcting the rest of the sequence, I leave as an exercise for the reader. :-) Unfortunately, Venezuela changed its time zone recently and Caracas is now 4:30 west of UTC. They would have done better to put HFX for Halifax instead.

--Anonymous, edited 05:43 UTC, June 20/08.

more like the watch maker goofed, the alphabetical sequence is copied correctly, oh well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.240.203.201 (talk) 16:20, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Others on the list include LON - London, MOW - Moscow, HGK - Hong Kong... but other than that it's a guess - is SYO really SYD - Sydney? IYO really TYO - Tokyo? Some of them seem to be odd mixes of national and city codes too... POL for Portugal, Lisbon, NWW for (NZW) New Zealand, Wellington? Is OXB meant to be UZB? A mysterious list... Grutness...wha? 00:51, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

You have done well, Grutness. I'm sure that LON, MOW, HKG (not HGK), SYO=SYD, and IYO=TYO are correct, since they all fit the time zone sequence. But Lisbon is on time zone 0, like London. Zone −1 is much less populated, but it includes the Azores, and I think the answer is to be found there. And New Zealand is on +12, not +11. I think NWW is Nouméa, New Caledonia; its correct IATA code is NOU, but perhaps someone was confused by its ICAO code, which is NWWW. The obvious city to use for zone +12 would be Auckland, and given the number of errors elsewhere in the list, I think it's reasonable to conjecture that SKI is a mistake for AKL -- the first letter is a typing error (adjacent keys) while the third letter represents a misreading, like in SYO and IYO.

I've decided this is fun enough to make a try at the complete list, but even using a list of airport codes that I downloaded a while ago in conjunction with the Wikipedia list of time zones, I was only able to get answers for 20 of the 23 codes. Here's what I have...

• I've deleted my original table, which had no solutions for MOY, NMI, and RAA; the others are the same as in the improved table below. --Anon, 05:40 UTC, June 23.

I wondered if MOY might be a mistake for MOI, but not only are the Cook Islands in zone +10, their main airport is at Rarotonga, not Mitiaro. So this seems most unlikely, but I don't have anything better.

The other two unsolved codes, NMI for zone +5 and RAA for +7, are in much more populous time zones, but I was not able to find plausible codes that they might have been errors for.

--Anonymous, 03:12 UTC, June 21, 2008.

P.S. (1) Isn't it impressive that more than half of the codes are wrong? (2) Two of the three unsolved codes are real airport codes, but too far from the proper time zones to be plausible errors. --Anon, 05:16, June 21.

Could NMI be intended to be KHI i.e. Karachi (or Jinnah International Airport)? Nil Einne (talk) 12:15, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I like that one! -- 21:52 UTC, June 21.

MOY would be MDY - Midway (Henderson Field, to be precise). That only leaves RAA, probably somewhere in Southeast Asia. Grutness...wha? 00:24, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm. come to think of it, does Yangon still use the code it had as rangoon? If so, that would probably be something like RAN. Grutness...wha? 00:30, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

But Burma/Myanmar is apparently on UTC+6:30 (according to UTC+6:30, anyways). UTC+7 is Laos, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, western Indonesia and Krasnoyarsk, Russia. None of these have cities that lend themselves to RAA. I agree about Midway, Grutness. Steewi (talk) 02:09, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Yep, MDY has got to be right; I'm slapping my head over missing it. And I like NMI being KHI. So that leaves only RAA to explain. Not only is the time zone wrong for Yangon/Rangoon, its code is RGN (and ICAO code VYYY); that seems like too many errors even for this watch.

Hold on, I have it! RAA has two letters wrong, and one of them is the repeated letter, with the same error repeated! R looks like B, A looks like K, right? So here, then, is the complete solution.

Zone	On watch	Correct	Errors	City	Location
−1	POL	PDL	1	Ponta Delgada	Azores, Portugal
0	LON	LON	0	London*	England, UK
+1	PAH	PAR	1	Paris*	France
+2	GAI	CAI	1	Cairo	Egypt
+3	MOW	MOW	0	Moscow*	Russia
+4	OXB	DXB	1	Dubai	UAE
+5	NMI	KHI	2	Karachi	Pakistan
+6	DSC	DAC	1	Dhaka	Bangladesh
+7	RAA	BKK	2	Bangkok	Thailand
+8	HKG	HKG	0	Hong Kong	China
+9	IYO	TYO	1	Tokyo*	Japan
+10	SYO	SYD	1	Sydney	NSW, Australia
+11	NWW	NOU	2	Nouméa	New Caledonia
+12	SKI	AKL	2	Auckland	New Zealand
−11	MOY	MDY	1	Midway I.	U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
−10	HNL	HNL	0	Honolulu	HI, USA
−9	ANC	ANC	0	Anchorage	AK, USA
−8	LAY	LAX	1	Los Angeles	CA, USA
−7	BEN	DEN	1	Denver	CO, USA
−6	MEX	MEX	0	Mexico City	DF, Mexico
−5	MYC	NYC	1	New York*	NY, USA
−4	CCS	CCS	1**	Caracas	Venezuela
−3	RIO	RIO	0	Rio de Janeiro*	RJ, Brazil
−2	missing		1

*These are codes in the IATA airport code series, but apply to the city rather than a specific airport.

**The code is right, but the time zone is out of date.

There! 20 different errors fixed. (Tosses chalk in air, catches it, sets it down and dusts off hands.)

--Anonymous, 05:52 UTC, June 23, 2008.

Social support

Shall much appreciate an economist pointing me to a site where I can obtain comparative data on the amount of GDP each of the EU countries allocates to social support/welfare.86.209.154.30 (talk) 14:05, 20 June 2008 (UTC)DT

See Welfare_state#The_welfare_state_and_social_expenditure Mattnad (talk) 15:38, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Belgian postal codes

How precise are Belgian postal codes? Are they as precise as UK ones, or as imprecise as French ones? In other words, how many addresses would a four-digit Belgian code typically cover? Thanks!--85.158.139.99 (talk) 16:13, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd say less precise than in the UK where there can be several codes for one small street. In the capital, Brussels, the postal code fits the administrative commune (equivalent to the Parisian arrondissement or to the first half of a London postcode). Hope it helps. 200.127.59.151 (talk) 16:30, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks.--217.171.129.71 (talk) 07:02, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Pictures of George W. Bush

Where can I find copyright-free pictures of George W. Bush, preferably of high quality. Copyright-free only in as much as they would be used in art projects with a large 'fair use' umbrella. 200.127.59.151 (talk) 16:23, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

As far as I understand it, any photo of him that was taken by a government employee carrying out the duties of their job as a photographer would fall under public domain. See the image in the info box at George W. Bush for instance. This should suit your needs. So, I'd suggest going to the White House's home page and finding most any image that you like unless there is a disclaimer on that particular photo. Dismas|^(talk) 16:32, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Mmhh... The White House site doesn't seem to have a picture section and all the photographs they show are too small to be printed (less than 8oo pixels on a side). Any other source would really be appreciated. 200.127.59.151 (talk) 22:54, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Google Images can be your friend. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 00:30, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

How about simply using the wikimedia Commons:George W. Bush? All images there are of course available under a 'free-license' although depending on the art project, obeying the GFDL in particular could be difficult/annoying I guess Nil Einne (talk) 12:58, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Take a look at Air Force Link photos and Defenselinkmil Mac Davis (talk) 02:05, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Uk Sewers

If I were to venture down into the UK sewer system from a manhole on the street, what dangers should I expect to face and what precautionary measures should I take beforehand? How easy would it be to accurately navigate through the sewer system to reach a set destination, for example from my house to my place of work? Are there any people down there that may challenge my presence? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.75.188.252 (talk) 16:50, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on this, but first, you probably know that there isn't a single UK sewer system but separate systems for each urban area. Now, as to what you are likely to encounter, of course there will be a stench. You will also be exposed to bacteria and other pathogens. Assuming that you could walk through the sewers, which I doubt, you would want a watertight covering at least up to your waist. The main collector sewers in major cities are likely to be large enough that you could walk through them, though you might have to crouch over, and walking bent over would eventually become painful. However, the feeder sewers, such as the one running from your house to the main collector sewer, are unlikely to be large enough for you to pass through. Or else, at best, you would have to crawl and slither through the sewer with most of your body immersed in the sewage, requiring watertight coverage of your entire body and probably oxygen tanks (if you could squeeze them into the sewer as well), because you do not want to risk inhaling or ingesting infectious sewage. As to whether parts of the sewer system are patrolled, I don't know but I doubt it. Marco polo (talk) 17:22, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Many places have separate rain sewers and sanitary sewers (where the toilets flush, which are completely sealed to prevent toxic and explosive gases from escaping). The rain sewers can have some gross things in them, too, like live or dead rats, but are open to the air. I'd assume you're asking about rain sewers. Navigation underground is a problem, as there are no landmarks to go off and I wouldn't expect any readable signs. StuRat (talk) 18:01, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Sewers are sometimes used by people to escape, such as smugglers, resistance fighters and those on the run. The Brighton sewers look big enough to walk though upright, as does the Cloaca Maxima, but I think you'd have trouble getting into them, and even more trouble getting out. And if you are down there and it starts to rain or there is a flash flood, you could easily drown if the water level rises too quickly and you cannot escape. Traveling through sewers is also a common plot device, but the unsanitary conditions or strong smell of the sewage is seldom mentioned, for example Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or the vampire Angle who used sewers to travel during the day to avoid sunlight. JessicaN10248 18:52, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

The images of the Brighton sewers show the main collector sewers. These were built in Victorian times, when maintenance people were expected to walk through the main sewers. I'm not sure that they are still built as large, and I'm fairly sure that the collector sewers running beneath side streets are not as large. Marco polo (talk) 19:37, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd get a Leptospirosis innoculation before I even thought about going down and also take along a gas detector to make sure I wasn't walking into any potentially dangerous low oxygen areas (caused by build-ups of methane or other gases). Nanonic (talk) 22:54, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Very few sewers, whether sanitary,stormwater or combined are large enough to walk or crawl through. The manhole chambers you see in the street are large enough to enter but just to facilitate access to the pipes for water blasting, cameras etc - the pipes are much smaller. Apart from the infectious nature of whats in there, oxygen depletion and asphixiating gases can be a major problem and a quick google of sewer worker deaths or similar will show you it still happens. In terms of navigation, sewers virtually never follow the street layout, they need to use topography and gravity ( its difficult to push faecal matter up hill) so they often run with the land contours, always heading down hill. Mhicaoidh (talk) 02:02, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

However, tourists can visit the Paris sewers. An unforgettable day out!--Shantavira|^{feed me} 06:32, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

...and the Brighton sewers as well - see here.--217.171.129.71 (talk) 07:08, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Any sewer or other underground space reached via a manhole cover is likely to be full of bad smells, rats, cockroaches feces, urine and germs. It may fill with water unexpectedly and drown you. The air may be toxic or lacking in oxygen, or contain combustible gases. Best take a bus rather than a sewer to get where you're going. Edison (talk) 03:45, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Driving times in the UK

As regulars may know, I am planning a holiday that involves driving around the UK in a rental car. I have been planning an itinerary using driving times from Google Maps. Recently I posted here and in some other places that I was planning to drive from London (near Paddington) to Stonehenge, and that I expected the drive to take 1 hour and 45 minutes. Actually, according to Google Maps, it is 1 hour and 40 minutes. Using the Directions function of Multimap.com, an online map provider based in the UK, I get the same result. However, I got responses from several people who live near the route from Paddington to Stonehenge that this route could not possibly be driven in only 1 hour and 45 minutes, even if there is no traffic congestion. One person said that I should count on 2 hours and 15 minutes without traffic, and probably 2 hours and 30 minutes to be safe. So, I am left wondering, are the driving times provided by Google Maps and other online map providers completely unrealistic for the UK? If so, can I get realistic times by adding a certain percentage, say 50%? Thank you! Marco polo (talk) 17:39, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't be surprised if they're unrealistically optimistic. In Edinburgh, such routers often use the city bypass as the 'fastest route' when in fact it's often the slowest possible route (since, at peak time, it's essentially a car park). I don't know the specific route here, though. Angus Lepper^{(T, C, D)} 17:44, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

The driving times also seem unrealistic for Google maps and MapQuest in the US. I'm guessing they just assume everyone travels the speed limit on each road during the entire trip. Unfortunately, this means that just adding a percentage is not going to make it much more accurate. This is because city streets, with constant stop-and-go due to stop signs, traffic lights, construction, and traffic back-ups can make those much slower than this calculation method, while a nice clear highway with everyone driving 20 MPH over the limit can move much faster than this calculation. You also need to consider the need for stops during long trips; for fuel, food, and bathroom breaks. Those estimates seem so poor that I find it's better to just estimate them myself. StuRat (talk) 17:54, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Really? Google Maps times work for me in the US, especially for longer (intercity) trips. This may be because I tend to travel 14 mph above the speed limit when traffic permits, which more or less makes up for stretches where traffic puts me below the speed limit. Can anyone else in the UK comment on whether Google Maps consistently underestimates UK drive times? Also, what is the practice in the UK? In most of the US, most drivers exceed the speed limit on freeways/motorways. I have found that police generally don't object to speeds 15–20% above the limit. (Higher than that, though, and you will probably be pulled over and fined.) Are speed limits more strictly enforced in the UK? Marco polo (talk) 19:34, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

AA times tend to be a little more conservative (1 hr 52 for Paddington/Stonehenge). Having just tried a few routes I know well, it seems fairly accurate. I think the main problem is cities (as mentioned for London and Edinburgh); traffic in cities is less predictable, and the mapping makes no allowances for the differing times of the day, or significant congestion, so you'll need to add on a substantial amount of time if you're heading past/through any. For the open road, they seem quite reasonable averages (of the ones I tried, I've generally been slightly quicker rather than slower than the quoted times). Gwinva (talk) 21:09, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I too think the problem is that most mapping software takes no account of time of day or traffic conditions. If you are lucky, it might allocate different speeds based on the type of road (ie. faster on motorways). I read recently that the average traffic speeds in London is now under 10mph - lower than it was in the days of "horseless carriages".

If you left Paddington at 3am, you could reach Stonehenge 85 miles away in an hour and 45 mins. But if you left at 8am, it could take you over an hour to get on to the M25 motorway less than 20 miles into your journey. The morning run down the M3 might be OK, and by the time you will be turning onto the A303 (fast dual-carriageway for long stretches) the traffic could be freely flowing. I would tend to agree with what you've heard elsewhere - hope for 2 hours, plan for 2 and a half hours. However, you are on holiday and I certainly wouldn't schedule your trips too tightly.

As for driving speeds, many drivers exceed the limit where they think they can get away with it. Cars usually go 75-85 mph on motorways but generally stick to the 30 or 40 mph speed limit in towns. The major factor in this, is the presence of speed cameras along many urban roads. Fortunately, after complaints they were solely for raising money, they are now all painted reflective yellow to provide an effective deterrent. Strangely enough, there are no speed cameras on motorways except on the M25 (hidden in gantries over the road) and other some places were the speed limit is reduced below the usual 70mph. If you are unlucky, you could be caught in a temporary speed trap and flagged down by the police at the side of the road. And if you are really unlucky, the police will chase you with blue lights and everything. In my experience, it is much less likely to happen than in the US - then again maybe it's just my lead foot that got me in stopped several times whilst on holiday ;-)

Astronaut (talk) 03:00, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not Briton, but I've read recently that around the solstice, the traffic to and from Stonehenge and Avebury gets a bit thick. I might have read that on Marco Polo's earlier question, though. Steewi (talk) 02:17, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Tanning Beds

If you lay in a tanning bed is it still ok to lay out in the sun? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.255.205.153 (talk) 19:20, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean by "ok"? There is no law against it, but you will get a double does of ultraviolet radiation, which causes DNA mutations. The longer you do either for the more chance you have of developing problems. See Tanning bed#Risks and Sunlight#Effects on health. JessicaN10248 19:30, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

You might be interested in reading the history of tanning. Mac Davis (talk) 02:02, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Template usage tracking

I made a template some time ago (User:The Vandal Warrior/Userboxes/GTA IV fan). Is there anyway I can see how many users are using this template on their user page? bsrboy (talk) 19:50, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Just click the "What links here" link in the toolbox section on the right side of the page. See this. The ones that say "transclusion" after them are the ones that display the userbox on the page. JessicaN10248 19:52, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! bsrboy (talk) 19:58, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Masters Degree in Sweden or Finland or any Nordic Countries.

Hello,

I am in the 3rd year(out of 4 years) of my Bachelor's Degree in Computer Science and Engineering. I have heard from a friend of mine that the Master's programmes in Sweden are completely subsidised by the State (i.e. They are free, no tuition fees). When I checked this on our own Wikipedia article, I found it to be true. However, it was stated that the Government is planning to discontinue this, and impose a tuition fee on all the foreign students(Not on students in the EU). I would like to know, if possible, when this might be imposed and if the subsidization is stopped, how much would the actual fee would be? (I would like to know the maximum fee that any University might have). I'll finish my Bachelor's in 2010 and will be applying the same year.

I also checked on the Education system of Finland, and it is subject to the same conditions as above(No tuition fees for now, and might be introduced in the future). And I would like the know the maximum fees that could be imposed in an Uni in Finland.

Is there a list of the countries that are providing Master's courses in this fashion?

How good exactly are these Universities in comparision to the Universities in other countries, such as USA, or Canada and so.

And I have one final question. I checked on a few of the universities in Sweden and Finland. In the requirements section, they mentioned a proficiency in English as a requirement and a minimum score in the [TOEFl] exam. While this is alright, I was surprised not to see any mention of the [GRE] exam. Does it mean that I dont need to write this exam? Or is it like a default requirement for all the Universities?

And also how strict is the intake process? Will my grade at the end of my bachelor's matter a lot? Or is it OK if I finish my degree with an average grade.

As you can see I am in quite a bit of confusion at the moment. I'd really appreciate it if you guys help me out here. :-)

Thanks a lot,

Jayant,19 Years, India • contribs 21:51, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I can't give you an unbiased assessment of the quality, so I'll skip that part of your question. Regarding the fees, the problem for you as a prospective student is that these things can change quite rapidly. While there are no fees at the moment, and no decision made to introduce them at any specific date, it may change. If the swedish parliament decides to introduce fees for non-EU students, it would not be unlikely to be done at six months notice, or so. Thus it won't be possible to say with any certainty what the situation will be like for semester 2, 2010 until about a year and a half from now. My knowledge about entry req's concerns only domestic students, so somebody with experience of applying to a swedish uni from abroad might be able to help you better with that. /Kriko (talk) 08:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, this might also be of interest: As far as I recall from what was debated when this was last discussed, if fees are introduced, they will only be partial, i.e. not pay for the full costs. They'd be only a fraction (quarter? fifth?, even less) of what you'd expect from e.g. a good U.S. university /Kriko (talk) 09:11, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

One thing to keep in mind is that, for Finnish universities at least, the whole concept of a B.Sc. degree is relatively new, being introduced only in the past few years as part of the Bologna process. (You may want to specifically read Bologna process#Finland as well as the Education in Finland article.) For example, I'm just about to finish my Master's degree at the University of Helsinki despite not having a Bachelor's degree; when I started my studies, no such degree existed here yet. (Yeah, I know, it's taken me a while — I was working most of the time.) Even where the curriculum now includes a separate Bachelor's degree, many places still consider it just an intermediate step towards a full Master's degree. In particular, this is likely to mean that the entrance procedures for students who already have a Bachelor's degree may be much less formal or standardized: even though, from your viewpoint, you've finished one degree and are starting another, from the university's viewpoint you're essentially jumping in half-way through what is still, in many ways, a direct-to-M.Sc. programme.

As for the GRE, I doubt most nordic universities require it: the nordic countries tend to have their own standardized examination systems. The reason for requiring TOEFL is simply to ensure that the student actually understands the language they'll be mostly studying in. It's possible that some internationally recognized exams might count in your favor, even if they're not required, but this is likely to depend not only on the specific university but on the specific program you're applying for. It won't hurt to ask, though. The admissions procedure for international Master's programmes at the University of Helsinki says they require a degree certificate, a transcript of studies (including information on the grading system used), a language test score (they don't seem to specifically require TOEFL) and a written letter explaining your motivation for studying at that particular university and for choosing the specific program you're applying for; the letter is apparently not just a formality, but may constitute a significant part of the evaluation criteria. It also notes that you may be required to take an entrance exam. I didn't look at other universities, but from what I've heard in general, that all sounds fairly typical.

Regarding quality, about the closest thing there is to an objective assessment would be various ranking lists, where it seems the nordic universities generally tend to score fairly well. Googling for nordic university ranking led me to this page, which gives the ranks of various nordic universities on two of them. Of course, it's up to you how much value you put on such lists. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 10:43, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and apparently the range of tuition fees for foreign students from outside the EU proposed in 2005 by the Finnish Ministry of Education was 3,500–12,000 euros per year. (ref: [8], in Finnish) Any actual implementation of such fees would require passing a new law: the current Finnish law on universities (yliopistolaki 8 §) states that "education leading to a university degree is free of charge to the student". —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 11:08, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the replies. So, if I had to pay a fee, it would be far less than what I'd be paying in USA or some other uni in the West? And how much would I have to spend for my stay in Sweden? I understand that my general expenses might cost a lot of money in Sweden or Finland. And I have also read in the FAQ section of some Swedish uni that they would not provide any accomodation on campus and I'd have to find my own place to live. How much would that cost(Approximately, of course)? Are there any cheaper alternatives like staying as a Paying Guest or something? If a University did provide hostel accomodation, how would that compare to finding a place to live off campus (in terms of cost)?

It looks like most of the Nordic Universities do rank pretty well. I am considering applying to some of these Universities. I just need to find about 5 of the universities which might just take me in.

So, Ilmari Karonen, me having a bachelor's degree would make it easier for my acceptance? Or is it the other way round?

Thanks a lot again. Jayant,19 Years, India • contribs 13:43, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

On-campus living is very uncommon in Sweden. However, there is specific student housing in most Uni towns, though usually not run by the university itself. These are commonly located fairly convenient, though not on the actual campuses. You ought to be able to find links from the uni websites to the local housing companies that offer student flats. If not, try following links via the student unions at the respective univeristies. In Sweden, the rent could be maybe 250-300€/month for a room, sharing a kitchen and lounge with others.

If you already have a bachelor's degree, you shouldn't be applying to the longer Straight-to-master's programmes Ilmari mentions, but rather to those designed for people with a previous bachelor level degree. With the Bologna process now implemented, there should be plenty of these in both Finland and Sweden,. Due to the transitions being in progress, they may or may not be labelled International Masters Programmes. In some cases there may some confusion of naming as both a 5-year and a 2-year programmes can have the same name. In those cases, the first three years of the longer one would contain studies equivalent to a bachelor's, and the latter two years would be very similar to the actual Master's programme. A fairly brief look at the lenght of the programme and the entry requirements should tell you which kind they are. /Kriko —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.194.44.18 (talk) 23:09, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh! I think I understand it now. :-) . And 250 euros a month sounds a little high to me. Are there any other means of accomodation? Are there any other Nordic or European countries which offer a free Master's programs and also are slightly cheaper to live in? Maybe around 150 euros/ month? Thanks a lot again! I cannot stress enough how patient you guys have been with me. Thanks a ton! Jayant,19 Years, India • contribs 05:20, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

No problem. I doubt you're going to find any place in the nordic countries with significantly lower living costs, so yes, what you gain in free tuition you lose in expensive food and housing. This guide from the U. of H. says that "The estimated minimum cost of living is 500 to 600 euros per month. This estimate includes the cost for accommodation, transportation and meals." That's for Helsinki; rents are somewhat cheaper in smaller towns like Turku, Tampere, Oulu or Jyväskylä, but e.g. food prices are about the same. One possible option (besides applying for grants) is to try to find some work, either on or off campus: at least the Finnish student residence permit allows part-time working, and wages tend to be proportionately high as well. Mind you, so are the taxes.

As for the programmes, what Kriko says is essentially correct, but an additional complication is that Finnish universities, at least, tend to follow an "open course plan", which means that there are no specific, say, "4th year" courses. Generally, the courses are grouped in levels such as "basic", "intermediate" and "advanced", with the advanced courses mostly being the ones you should take after your Bachelor's degree (including some mainly intended for Ph.D. students), but it's not a hard-and-fast rule. For example, according to the study guide for the CS dept. at the U. of H., the general requirements for a Master's degree (for normal students) are: a Bachelor's degree, at least 40 ECTS credits of advanced CS studies (more or less freely chosen, but must include some courses appropriate for the specific programme), a 40 cr thesis and enough elective courses (usually with some constraints, such as at least 20 cr of math or "method sciences") to fulfill the total requirement of 120 ECTS credits. There are also some special M.Sc. programmes with a somewhat different structure, such as the Master's degree in Bioinformatics, but the general "pick and mix" style is still the same.

While looking for the info above, I also came across the international applicant's guide for the University of Helsinki, which might answer some of your questions. I couldn't find a good place to work that link into the text, so I'll just give it here. :-) —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 11:10, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I notice no one has pointed this out so I probably should mention it. Although it's often possible to study in English nowadays in a number of countries where the native language is not English, you'll likely find it a lot easier and a lot more of a pleasent experience if at least learn one local language (if there are several) Nil Einne (talk) 14:54, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, Thanks a lot for that guide. I am going through it right now. And how easy or hard is it to learn Swedish or Finnish? And would all the jobs involve talking to the local people? Are there any jobs on campus or something which I could get without learning the language? Not that I am not willing to learn the language. :-P Jayant,19 Years, India • contribs 10:33, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

My friend just told me that its hard to get a job after I finish my degree from anywhere in the EU because there are a lot of restructions on work permits or something. While I am not really worried about a getting a job after the degree right now, how far is it true? Is it that hard as he is saying? Jayant,19 Years, India • contribs 11:04, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

June 21

bonded

When a contractor who is going to do home improvements in your home is bonded. What does bonded mean —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.239.86.55 (talk) 00:42, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

"Bonded" likely means they have a performance bond, which guarantees that the contractor will meet his or her contractual obligations in a satisfactory manner. Failure will result in the payment of compensation by the bonding company. A bonded contractor should provide greater confidence that the job will be done properly, but they will also typically cost more than an unbonded contractor. See also Surety bond, for more general information on this type of 3-party contract. Rockpocket 03:00, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Also bonded contractors are likely to be licensed by the state (in the US), whereas an unbonded contractor may not only not be licensed, but may have had their license revoked. Corvus cornix_talk 00:08, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

DKR football stadium

Thank you for answering my previous questions. Sorry, but I have another one.

I looked on the article regarding the University of Texas's Darryl K. Royal Memorial football stadium, and it says that it has a current capacity of around 85,000. It also said that renovations were being undergone and the capacity would move up to 90,000. Does anyone know the exact capacity of the stadium once the renovations are complete? Will we ever find that out? Also, do you think Texas will break its attendance record on 89,418 this year?76.194.67.13 (talk) 00:51, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Do smoke detectors get triggered by cigarrette somke?

Does a modern smoke detector goes off with just cigarrette smoke? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.40.65.166 (talk) 01:04, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it depends on the proximity of the cigarette to the smoke detector. If the cigarette is quite close, the smoke detector can pick up the smoke being emitted from the cigarette and possibly trigger itself. On the other hand, if it is far from the nearest smoke detector, it is possibly unlikely that the smoke detector will pick it up. --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 01:18, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

If you ever take an airline flight, you've heard an announcement warning smokers that smoking is illegal even in the washrooms, and there are smoke detectors in there which it is also illegal to tamper with. Here's someone who found out the hard way that they will indeed detect cigarette smoke. But in a large room, as Sky says, it might well be a different matter. --Anonymous, 02:46 UTC, June 21, 2008.

Who's the oldest Daughter in all time?

I mean, the highest age's woman that her mother was Still alive. Breckinridge (talk) 07:23, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

If you really mean the oldest living daughter with a living mother then I have no idea. If you mean the living daughter with oldest living mother then Sarah Knauss's daughter is the oldest documented case as her daughter as still alive at the time of her death and she is the third oldest ever according to Oldest people Nil Einne (talk) 13:28, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

The Sky

I've lived in NZ my entire life but recently moved to Vermont (6 months ago) and I've noticed something odd about the sky - to me, it seems that the skies are a paler blue in New Zealand than they are in VT/NH. I know there's probably no scientific reason for this, but it just seems like that for me. Maybe its some nostalgic/homesick thing, or maybe its just that I'm noticing the sky more now that I live in a far more hilly area. Something about the clouds, too - there seem to be many more nimbus here, as opposed to cirrus (which seemed to be prevalent in NZ). 66.220.246.235 (talk)Slayton —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.220.246.235 (talk) 07:37, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Beware of people offering to answer your question for money. I am a fellow New Zealander however and can do you a good deal on some magic beans that came into my possession. Its a funny story...Mhicaoidh (talk) 11:09, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Is there by any chance a substantial elevation difference between the two locales ? I'd expect higher elevations to be paler blue during the day, as there's less air between you and space to refract sunlight into blue light. If this is the case, I'd also expect the Sun to appear more whitish-yellow where you have the pale sky and more reddish-orange where you have the deep blue sky. StuRat (talk) 15:26, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Surely the amount of water vapour present in the atmosphere is a significant factor in how blue the sky appears. I would suggest that the New Zealand atmosphere contains, generally, more moisture than that in VT/NH. Richard Avery (talk) 15:55, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Unless I misunderstand, according to this website [9] that is not actually the case Nil Einne (talk) 17:28, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, I withdraw my case Mi' Lord. Thanks for that Nil. Richard Avery (talk) 05:12, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Diffuse sky radiation may be helpful, although I'm too tired to think about it Nil Einne (talk) 17:36, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

As an aside, I noticed something similar when heading south from central Scotland to Cyprus. I wonder if it could be to do with the latitude? In terms of light passing through the atmosphere at a different angle and consequently passing through more atmosphere at more extreme latitudes, that is. Angus Lepper^{(T, C, D)} 18:18, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

The question surprises me. I live in Australia, just across the way from New Zealand, and I've heard many people from Europe and other northern parts say that the Australian sky is a deeper blue than where they come from. Maybe there's something special about Vermont. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:58, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Having lived in several different places and travelled to more, I can testify that the sky in New England, and especially Northern New England, does tend to be a deeper blue than other places. I don't know why this is true. I think that it just might have to do with the frequency of dry continental high-pressure systems passing overhead. These form in central Canada and move southeast over New England especially in the fall (autumn) and winter. (Continental high pressure would also form over Australia, I suppose, but might tend to weaken over the Tasman Sea.) Marco polo (talk) 00:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

legal rights

does a woman, who does not speak English, have a LEGAL right to a FEMALE interpreter when recieving NHS treatment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.10.210.166 (talk) 08:41, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

This is not legal advice but I doubt that you have the right to a female interpreter although you may have the right an interpreter. Anonymous101 (talk) 11:13, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

This is not legal advice (I don't live in the UK and I'm not a lawyer) my guess is if you have a good reason for wanting a female interpreter, you would probably be granted one and in the unlikely event one is refused a review or court case would like find your rights were violated. One example would be if you are seeking help for rape. Bear in mind that in many cases including I suspect this case this may not be spelt out in law so it's possible no one can no for sure until this is actually tested in court. Nil Einne (talk) 11:58, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Again, not legal advice, not sure but they probably have the right to an interpreter, though not specifically a female one...--Serviam (talk) 19:43, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea of your legal rights or otherwise, but the NHS Interpreting & Translation Service notes that its interpreters can "to refuse to interpret if:... b. you are the wrong sex" suggesting there they are sensitive to issues of gender. Rockpocket 06:32, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Party problem

If I have a party for my birthday I'm going to lose my friends! Ok I'll explain. I would love have a party for my birthday in a month (it's a milestone age) with heaps of my friends but the small group of friends I hang out with daily (well, a girl and a guy) would be totally against it because for all my other friends to come there would be alcohol involved and my main friend considers herself "straight-edge". I don't want to leave out my best friends but they wouldn't come if I invited them to party with alcohol. I originally wanted to go play lasertag and then have pizza for my party but my friends aren't into that idea either (my friend says she doesn't like the arcade because "people look at you" and she doesnt eat pizza because she's a vegan too). I could shout my non-drinking friends to lunch and then have the rest of my friends at the party at night but I know my non-drinking friends would just whinge at me over who I'm inviting and why parties are wrong and blah blah blah all week and make me miserable... it's my birthday and I want a party but what am I supposed to do in this situation to make everybody happy? --124.254.77.148 (talk) 09:38, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

US translation: "shout my non-drinking friends to lunch" means to take them to lunch and pay their way. StuRat (talk) 15:09, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

The joys of having a party... Just do what you would do if it's the last day of your life. Would you binge drink your way out or spend quality time with the people you love? --antilived^{T | C | G} 10:56, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

They dont sound like friends, they sound like useful parts of your social networking. Unfortunately we cant assume you will die (see above ) after your party thus taking the easy way out. I would do what you want to do for your birthday. The straight couple know they are out of step with a lot of other people, for better or worse, without making value judgements, you need to decide what your birthday is. is it about you having fun,mirth with true friends or an opportunity to ingratiate yourself with these two a bit more. Mhicaoidh (talk) 11:46, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. It's your birthday and you're stressing about how to make everybody else happy. Funny, I could have sworn it was supposed to be the other way around. -- JackofOz (talk) 12:47, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Have you tried talking to her (the vegan)? Did you tell her that having a huge drunken party to celebrate your milestone birthday (with ALL your friends) is important to you? If she still doesn't understand after that, she's probably not worth all the trouble you're willing to go to, to accomodate her (on YOUR birthday). Zain Ebrahim (talk) 12:58, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

When you say "for all my other friends to come there would be alcohol involved" do you mean 1) When all my other friends come, there would likely be alcohol involved OR 2) If I want my other friends to come, I need to include alcohol as part of the party? If you mean 2, then I would have to say I question whether all your other friends are worth the trouble either... Nil Einne (talk) 13:17, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I guess it depends on what you want; a small gathering of your closest friends or a mad (and probably expensive) party full of people who barely know you and, as you say, are probably there just for the beer. Your non-drinking friends shouldn't whinge at you if you want a big party - but you should respect them if they don't want to attend if it's totally not their scene. JessicaN10248 15:05, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I should add that I am presuming here it would be legal for you and your alcohol drinkings friends to drink alcohol. If not, I think I can understand and even agree with the objections of your non-alcohol drinking friends to the party. I'm also presuming despite the alcohol you are intending to have controlled chaos rather then something like this guy and if not I can similarly understand the and even agree with the objections of your friends. Finally I'm also presuming by saying alcohol, you only mean alcohol and not any sort of illegal psychoactive drugs. While what people choose to do is up to them, and I'm not really opposed to the use of some drugs in controlled circumstances I personally believe allowing them in a party you are running is a recipe for disaster particularly given their illegality and your likely inability to ensure things don't get out of control and/or people do something extremely stupid like this and would similarly understand the objections of your friends otherwise. Nil Einne (talk) 17:22, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I like your idea of taking the non-drinking friends out to lunch and having your drunken party later. For my part, if either party even partly objects to the party of the other party, then part with the party party which partly objects. I'm partially partial, neigh, particularly partial, to that party plan. StuRat (talk) 15:09, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

StuRat, my head just exploded. JessicaN10248 15:13, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

StuRat picks up the empty skull and uses it to scoop up the various chunks of brains scattered about...

Firstly, just to say that lasertag and pizza sounds like fun. Shame others wouldn't go for that. I generally agree with above: you're probably looking at lunch with the straight people, party with everyone else. But if you're going with running a party with alcohol, and you haven't run a big party with alcohol before, be careful. Make sure there's someone big and fierce on your side who isn't getting horribly drunk (a parent, an older sibling, the right sort of friend), don't let people in that you didn't expect, hide anything precious, breakable or stainable. If all else fails and it gets out of hand, you may want to call the police and say there are gatecrashers who won't leave... 79.66.20.219 (talk) 19:56, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Wow you're so considerate of others that you could diversify for fun and profit. You could then make a career out of specialist party programs: teetotal raves, vegan couch parties, party boy parties, X parties, wedding parties, parties for warring parties, all-food parties, interested parties... It's your birthday so maybe you need to work out what you really want and enjoy. Btw, how do straight-edgers have fun? Maybe just being present wearing their 24 t-shirts would do it for them.) Here's to your own best happy birthday, Julia Rossi (talk) 01:38, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Friends that wouldn't come to your party if they couldn't get hammered aren't friends, they're people that want to come to your party so they can get hammered. Mac Davis (talk) 02:00, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Your "Straight Edge" friends sound weird to me, and not just over the drinking thing. (Some kinds of weird are good, but not these ones). On the core issue, though, my reaction is that I have no problem at all with people who don't themselves drink, but to take it upon themselves to assert that nobody else should either, and then to effectively blackmail you over it, is to be unbelievably arrogant. I find it hard to advise you on what to do as I can't visualise being in the same situation myself - I can't imagine being friends with people who behave like that. 81.187.153.189 (talk) 13:20, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

dennis m. arroyo

what is the biography of dennis m. arroyo who wrote smart studying? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.97.174.236 (talk) 11:22, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Ghits says he is a weather expert and smart study guides/books are written by other people. No personal article here – outshone by Gloria Arroyo and others. Best, Julia Rossi (talk) 01:23, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

C-Class

I assess many articles for WikiProject Devon and I've just noticed a new "C-Class" category appear on the assessment categories. I've never heard of C-Class and I can't find any information about it (all the categories are empty). Can anyone point me in the right direction? bsrboy (talk) 15:03, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

It comes from the article grading scheme. See the discussion here. There is also a category of C-Class articles JessicaN10248 15:09, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

You may also be interest Wikipedia talk:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment#Ratification vote on C-Class Nil Einne (talk) 17:05, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

HELP - Anti-shoplifter security device still attached to garment bought abroad?????

Help please - as above, I bought my wife a really expensive coat whilst on holiday in the Canary Islands and despite being able to walk out of the shop without sounding any alarms, we have just found upon our return to the UK that the security device is still attached to the coat. It is a finger long plastic affair that is pinned through the fabric and seems to be attached to a chrome-dome about half-an-inch in diameter inside the garment. I have tried separating the two parts with no success, and a friend advises against forcing it with pliers etc. as he says it is filled with a dye that will leak onto the garment if I do succeed in breaking it. So what can I do? The return airfare or the postage and return costs would make the effort non-viable when set against the cost of the coat. Is all lost or do you good people have a solution? Hope so. Many thanks in advance. 92.9.128.208 (talk) 18:33, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm rather skeptical about the dye packet, why would the shop want to destroy their own products ? I'd go ahead and force it, but wear old clothes and do it in the bathtub just in case. StuRat (talk) 18:55, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

No, this is very common. The ink is in there to deny the use of the product to the shoplifter and further discourage theft because people know that even if they can sneak it out, it won't be useful to them. Forcing it open is a great way to end up with a garment that screams "someone stole me". Jessica's freeze advice is probably the best so far, store-keepers are unlikely to assume anything other than 'this is shoplifted'. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 20:43, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Is it a well know supermarket chain? If so you could take it into the same shop in the UK with the receipt and explain the situation. They should detach it easily without much fuss. JessicaN10248 18:56, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

To the second response No, it was a very specialised high-fashion store and to StuRat, maybe you should consult Benefit-Denial within Wikipedia as I did before posing the request for help. More responses welcome please.92.9.128.208 (talk) 19:06, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Go to a shop where identical alarming gadgets are used (there seem to be only a few manufacturers) and explain your predicament. If the sales personnel is reasonably helpful, they will unlock the device with a special detacher. As you have not triggered an alarm when leaving the original shop, the gizmo has presumably been deactivated by the local sales person who forgot to remove it. Some (but not all) of these EAS (electronic article surveillance) gadgets do, indeed, contain ink capsules. As you state, it has the cute name of benefit denial.

Maybe your wife would appreciate an expensive polka-dotted coat? I have seen female leopards wear them... --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:10, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you could freeze it so that the ink doesn't go everywhere if you decide to break it. JessicaN10248 19:12, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I know the security devices you're talking about, many clothes shops use them. Go to some shop that has similar devices and get them to remove it, show them your reciept.--Serviam (talk) 19:41, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Does your tag look at all like the one in this article? 79.66.20.219 (talk) 19:44, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Right - Good - Brilliant - Thanks. I am off to a local fashion store tomorrow who have promised to try to help me remove the tag - so long as I bring in the receipt which is not a problem. Failing that, I shall resort carefully to my toolshed - and trust that the all-knowing and ever-helpful StuRat will forgive me foregoing his suggestion of an early ink-bath. Thanks to all though. All suggestions muchly appreciated. 92.9.128.208 (talk) 20:36, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

My understanding is that removal (possibly separate from electronic deactivation) is done magnetically. The block at the till against which they press the tag is a powerful (possibly neodymium) magnet, and this retracts some ferrous latches inside the device so that the two halves can be separated. Worth a try? 81.187.153.189 (talk) 13:10, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi each. I am the OP and thought you all deserved an update. I did go to my local ASDA Superstore today where they were supremely helpful. At one point I had 4 assistants trying to remove the tag with their various devices but despite their valiant efforts the bl.... thing wouldn't budge. Along came the department manager who also tried with no luck. I was becoming extremely embarrassed that I was taking up so much of their time, though no other customers were at that time being inconvenienced, when along came the head of security who also failed to remove the tag. So he took the coat into his office (with me having to remain outside), and emerged several hammer-blows later with the coat in one hand and the now separated tag in the other. No ink, no dye stains, no screeching security signal - nothing. And he even escorted me through the security pillars to my car just in case I activated their system. Well done I say, and thanks immensely to everyone here and there. My wife shall go to the ball with her new coat after all. "Oh, what was his secret?" I hear you all ask. Well, he told me he didn't think the device was a dye-stainer so he just attacked it with a screwdriver and the device separated into 2 pieces, though the retaining pin did break off in the process. Thanks again to one and all, especially ASDA. 92.23.47.32 (talk) 18:39, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmm interesting. At least now we know not to shop-lift in the CIs... :-P I guess since it was a very expensive coat perhaps they could afford a fancy (and expensive) security tag. Nil Einne (talk) 19:05, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

It was nice of you to give us the rest of the story, and it's nice to know there are such nice, helpful people in retail. Mitchell k dwyer (talk) 07:15, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Someone want my password on MySpace

I got a message from a friend on MySpace and she wants my E-mail address. I gave my E-mail addresses to her. Now, she wants my password. She says she will not give it to someone. Is this phishing? Should I report her to MySpace customer service? What should I do? Jet (talk) 22:59, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Why would you even consider giving this person your password? Your password is for you to edit your myspace page, to control your list of friends, to decide what appears in your profile, and so on. Giving your password to another person is giving all that "power" to them, including the power to change the password so you can no longer use your myspace account.

If you read the phishing article, you will quickly realise that this person's request is not a phishing attack. But if this person continues to harrass you for more personal details, then yes, do report them to customer service. Astronaut (talk) 00:55, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

If you don't actually know this person, it is a form of phishing. If they are your friend, then it is a friend asking you for your password, and you can decide to trust them or not. Mac Davis (talk) 01:57, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

What kind of friend would ask and expect you to give your password to them? Remember, power corrupts. Julia Rossi (talk) 04:11, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Could you clarify; do they want the password for your myspace account or your email account? Not that it really matters, either way I wouldn't give it to them - but if they got control of your email account they could do a lot more damage. For example, not only would they have your email, which they could use to impersonate you, but with a little work they could also gain control of every account on any site you have, including Wikipedia, via the "email my password to me" feature. I can't see any legitimate reason someone would need to know your account password. JessicaN10248 14:59, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Well some sites (not wikipedia though I think) have a secret question or similar thing before they will reset your password so depending on how close the friend is and what your question is, they may or may not be able to reset these passwords. However if you re-use your passwords, and many people do, then since some sites will still send your current password rather then resetting the password they may be able to get the password you use on many sites. Nil Einne (talk) 19:03, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Those secret question and answer setups are very low security, and seem like a really bad idea. When you set up a hotmail account, for example, a little bar rates the strength of your password and encourages you to select a good one in all the usual ways. But then it's compulsory to set up a question and answer to allow backdoor access to your account, and you can't write your own question any more; it has to be from a list of about 5 really obvious ones. It can't be hard to hack an account with a standard secret question and answer, if the average person set it up. 79.66.77.88 (talk) 01:22, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Why not ask the friend why they want it? You shouldn't give it to them in any case. You may consider the possibility that your friend's account has been compromised as well—it may not actually be your friend at all, it might be someone who is contacting all of the "friends" of your friend and seeing how many more accounts they can get. But again, don't give it out. You have honestly no reason to and they have honestly no valid reason to ask for it. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 23:51, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

What is significance of a hollow 5 pointed star tattoo?

In the last six months or so I have noticed a lot of girls that have this . I was wondering if you have a tattoo art page that can help me? Thanks, Hey, I'm Just Curious (talk) 23:53, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Does it look like this? Corvus cornix_talk 00:13, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

No. It's empty on the inside. It's bassically a five point outline.Hey, I'm Just Curious (talk) 01:42, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I take it you want to know about the meaning of the shape, not how to do a tattoo. In tattooing, hollow means it's not coloured in afaik. Someone has been asking a similar question around the net with minor variations and got this answer[10] a pentagram is produced which is considered a symbol of mystical and magical significance. It has been associated with Venus and the worship of the Goddess Venus. So it is a possibility that your daughter has such inclinations. It also has associations with Freemasons. And another at that site about gaydar stars. That it? Julia Rossi (talk) 04:06, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

And, of course, the pentogram is a symbol of evil, devil worship, etc. I'd guess the girls with those tattoos are goths, meaning they pretend to believe in that stuff. StuRat (talk) 14:06, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Given that I severely doubt it is an 'upside-down' pentagram, it is far more likely to be worn by someone wishing to invoke the good symbolism, such as a wiccan. And if someone didn't know about goths and wanted to know what they actually are (in the modern sense), see goth subculture. 79.66.22.23 (talk) 15:01, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

The pentagram per se is not a symbol of evil, StuRat! It represents the human condition, with the points standing for the five senses and, as the above anon points out, is a positive, not negative symbol. Inverted, however, it represents the subversion of the five senses and is thus associated with evil (or, at least, the "left hand path"). Mind you, I suppose if the person getting the tattoo is a Wikipedian, it could be a barnstar ;) Grutness...wha? 23:57, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

In any case, an empty star is not a pentagram. The girls I've seen with them are not goths—they are usually "indy" or "punk" types, like this girl or this one. I don't think they have any strong, shared meaning. They just look "cool" and "different", and have a very different vibe than, say, "tribal" tattoos or pictures of naked ladies and the like. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 00:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

June 22

Kilometer pronunciation

Moved to the language desk, as requested by the questioner

Nationality

What would a person's nationality be? Country of birth, or parents, or citizenship country?

220.244.74.63 (talk) 05:13, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

That would be dependent if the country implements jus sanguinis (citizenship by blood, as in parents) or jus soli (citizenship by birth, as in being born in a country). In situations where a person born to parents whose citizenship is passed down by jus sanguinis is born in a country that implements jus soli (example: a baby born in the United States [jus soli] to Filipino parents [jus sanguinis]), there will be a case of multiple citizenship. --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 05:27, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

So you can be multiple nationalities? 220.244.76.63 (talk) 09:46, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Many countries allow multiple citizenship. For those that don't often the child is allowed to keep citizenships granted at birth, until he or she reaches adulthood at which time the child is, in theory, supposed to choose whether to keep the citizenship of the country which does not allow multiple citizenship, and if so, give up on his or her other citizenships (or at very least refrain from exercising any rights as a citizen of the other country or countries). Nil Einne (talk) 11:39, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

There are examples of various situations of multiple citizenship in its article. Just to raise a point: pointing on the child born to Filipino parents in the United States example: usually, if you do not declare that your child was born to the nearest diplomatic post, recognition of that child as a citizen of the country where he/she acquires his citizenship from his parents through jus sanguinis (in this case, the Philippines) may not be granted. However, this depends from country to country, and likewise, you can request for recognition after birth through the appropriate agency or agencies. --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 13:46, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Witness Protection

Suppose one is testifying against a major figure in organized crime and is protected under the United States Federal Witness Protection Program. After the trial, does this protection last indefinitely, similar to the formerly indefinite Secret Service protection given to ex-US Presidents? Does the duration of this protection change should a witness is testifying against a less "dangerous" suspect? Thanks. Acceptable (talk) 06:35, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi Acceptable, an overview: the first para in the article Witness protection seems to hit the spot. An example of long-term protection is Henry Hill, central figure of the book Wiseguy which formed the basis of the movie Goodfellas. I'm assuming in his case, the witness protection was long-term because his testimony included dangerous subjects and did not change with his testimony against lesser suspects. Someone else here will know more. Cheers, Julia Rossi (talk) 08:33, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Hill may be a good example of protection being dropped or an exception, depending on how you look at it. His numerous crimes after entering witness protection caused the government to kick him out of witness protection. So, yes, protection can be dropped but in this case, it's not in the way that the OP set out as an example, i.e. the "dangerous" level of the suspect. Dismas|^(talk) 09:41, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Wet room smell

I inadvertently left my window open in my apartment two nights ago before I left camping and it rained almost the entire time I was gone. None of the water got into the room, but it's very humid here and I think the walls or something got wet enough or it got steamy enough in here sometime in the last two days to leave a really bad smell when I came back. I've tried to look or a particular source but nothing smells when I put my nose up to it; the whole room just smells. I've also febrezed it up and tried to air it out, but the smell remains. Is there anything else I can do? I'm worried that some kind of bacteria might spread/be spreading, and I don't want it to get any worse. 210.254.117.186 (talk) 13:20, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like mold. Use a dehumidifier or air conditioner to remove the humidity, then wash all the clothes, bedding, drapes, etc., in the room, using bleach to kill the mold. The carpet may be the issue, too, so move all the furniture out and shampoo the carpet using diluted bleach. This will, however, make the room damp again. Don't spend any more time in the room than necessary until this problem is gone, as mold and bleach fumes can both present a health risk. Sleep somewhere else, like on a couch. Assuming you have a traditional bed, you may also need to replace your mattress (likely) and box spring (less likely). StuRat (talk) 13:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

alaska gold nuggets

Why do they say the nugget is between 18-24 carat gold? Susan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.188.228.43 (talk) 14:51, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

A karat measures in this case the purity of gold. 24 karats is considered as the finest form of gold. --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 15:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Living in a sail ship

How big must be a ship to live on it? How much does the smaller ship where you can live cost? Any hint where I can start learning? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.6.118.85 (talk) 17:20, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Any size really, though I'd suggest something similar to a narrowboat, unless you are planning to live out at sea, which is probably a bad idea (very dangerous for a beginner). Prices will depend on age, condition etc, but a boat can be a lot cheaper than a house, and as long as it is well maintained there is really no more maintenance required. Try to get as much information as you can beforehand, maybe go down to the local marina and speak to people who are currently doing it, or apply for information from the local authority who manages the canals and rivers. JessicaN10248 17:33, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

It depends on the lifestyle that you're willing to tolerate. A square raft 2.5 meters (about 8 feet) on a side is enough room to set up a one-man tent and still have space for a small ice chest and a propane stove. (Think of it as a floating campsite.) If you're interested in additional amenities (a real berth, a full-sized bed, a double bed; sails, motor; on-board battery-powered lights, radio, AC power, television, air conditioning; satellite navigation; head (toilet), galley (kitchen), on-board laundry facilities; etc.) then the sky's the limit for prices.

Poking around the 'net, you can find yacht brokers and used boat dealers who can set you up with a used sailboat – including a small head, galley, berths for two to four (friendly) adults, well-used motor – for comfortably less than ten thousand USD. (Google 'yacht broker' or 'used boats' to find searchable lists of ads.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:31, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

A modern sailboat with a cabin small kitchen appliance and reasonable bunk would be a minimum of 6 metres - although you could always live in an optimist I guess. You should be able to find some from the 80´s in reasonable states for six thousand US dollars up. This doesn´t include berthing fees, repairs, extra equipment you might want to buy in order to actually make you boat into a permanent residence (heater, bigger water tank, more security equipment) as opposed to a week-end/summer embarcation. I wouldn´t argue that it would be in any way very confortable though and you should be looking for 8-10 metres for confort on your own or with other people for short periods of time and 10-12 for real confort and security. Small boats are not designed for the high seas and are less secure than big boats - which can be rendered insubmersible (usually from 8 meters up). Aluminium hull can be a good choice too as they are practically unsinkable since it would take tremendous force to make a hole in one. Other points: boats cost a lot to maintain, there are a lot of small parts that are subject to extreme conditions - make the wrong decision, rip a sail and that sets you back at least five hundred dollars. You have to take into account berthing fees unless you have your own (protected) place. Good luck with your endeavour. Oh yes and LEARN before buying ... you might realise it´s not your cup of salty tea afterall. 200.127.59.151 (talk) 21:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Cullinan Diamond Discovery Date

Article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cullinan_Diamond states that the rough cut diamond was discovered on January 25, 1905

The page for January 25: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_25 does not list the discovery.

However, the page for June 25: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_25 does list it.

I am uncertain which date is correct, and I am uncertain as to whom I should ask.

Rschwriter (talk) 20:10, 22 June 2008 (UTC)Rschwriter 6/21/2008

According to the book used as a source for the article on the diamond http://www.farlang.com/gemstones/goodchild-precious-stones/page_145, the January date is right. Is there a source given for the June listing? 79.66.22.23 (talk) 20:55, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

it is possible

could someone survive a bullet through the head —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.75.220.127 (talk) 20:48, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Sure, depending on what part of the head it goes through and how big the hole is. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 20:59, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

You might survive, but you probably wouldn't know you did —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spinage (talk • contribs) 21:11, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Adam Sandler shot Damon Wayans in the head in the movie Bulletproof,and he survived. So it must be possible!!-- Coasttocoast (talk) 22:07, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, if wikipedia says it's so, then it must be. I'll go do that now, and thanks for the medical advice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.75.220.127 (talk) 22:46, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

There have been recorded cases of people surviving a pole (an inch or two in diameter) through the head. A bullet is probably not too different. The problem is that it could destroy vital parts of your brain. One of the recorded cases (I forget which) ended up losing his behavioural centre (essentially gave himself a lobotomy) and had a large change in lifestyle and behaviour. Add the risk of infection, stroke, blood loss, etc., and it's not likely, but survival is possible with proper care. Steewi (talk) 02:53, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

You're probably thinking of Phineas Gage. More recently, Manish Rajpurohit got skewered by a pole and survived to tell of it. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you so much for the Phineas Gage reference. All I could come up with was Phileas Fogg, quite a different person. Edison (talk) 03:38, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Unity Mitford shot herself in the brain and survived for years, although the injury eventually contributed to her death. --Anonymous, 07:53 UTC, June 23, 2008.

Hey 79, if you had asked 'what should be treatment for one who has been shot through head?', then that is asking for medical advice. You must have realised that answers to the question 'whether someone could survive...' are opinions, not facts 203.129.237.147 (talk) 03:26, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't be silly. The OP asked if someone COULD survive, not WOULD survive; that's different from speculation, as has been demonstrated by those respondents who posted above you. Did you bother to click those links? Mitchell k dwyer (talk) 07:12, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

It may be possible to live without a head.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Taxes

In the USA ... when you file your income taxes with the government (IRS), does that information then become a matter of "public record"? If so, can I (as a member of the tax-paying public) request a copy of, say, my next-door-neighbor's tax filing ... or, say, Cher's or Madonna's or any famous celebrity's? And if it's not public information, why is it not? Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 22:13, 22 June 2008 (UTC))

As far as I know, it is. You can always ask the IRS for a copy of said tax returns via a FOIA request. However, if the request is solely for personal use, or if the intention is an invasion of privacy, such request is most likely going to be denied. --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 00:56, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Well, then ... what, for example, would constitute some valid reasons for which the request would not be denied ...? Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 01:26, 23 June 2008 (UTC))

You're welcome. To answer your follow-up, usually this would be for statistical, legal (as in law enforcement), judicial, government (as in Congressional investigations), archival or administrative uses, as regulated by the Privacy Act of 1974. I think there are also other valid uses, like when individuals or media outlets send FOIA requests for the tax returns of companies. --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 01:41, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks ... I meant valid (non-deniable) reasons from an ordinary citizen / taxpayer ... not law, courts, government, etc., ... to see an individual's (not a corporation's) returns ... any ideas? Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 01:47, 23 June 2008 (UTC))

I checked again on the Privacy Act...you can request this information from an individual only with consent, and usually this would be for any purpose (except accusing someone of a crime, per the Government in the Sunshine Act). So if you're asking for the tax returns of your next-door neighbor via a FOIA request, either it has to be him/her who requests it, or you possess prior written consent from the person(s) involved before you request for it. There are exceptions where consent need not be granted and usually those are for the reasons I gave earlier. --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 02:03, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I see. Thanks. So, for all practical purposes, tax returns are not "really" public records that are open for the public to see ... and I cannot go look at Cher's tax return just "because I want to" ... right? Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 02:33, 23 June 2008 (UTC))

I suppose so. And of course, you're very welcome. --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 02:44, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

TWO QUESTIONS

1. If Bush lied to us about going to war in Iraq then what was the real reason? Don't tell me he really believed they had WMDs, don't tell me oil, don't tell me he wanted to finish his father's job, don't tell me the Israelis pushed him into it. What was the real reason? 2. Why did Jackie Kennedy climb onto the trunk of the car when JFK was shot? To grab a piece of his brain which was there? Then he must hjave been shot from the front left, not the book depository nor the grassy knoll. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.119.114.114 (talk) 22:29, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I think for Question # 2 ... wasn't she merely doing what the Secret Service officers were telling her to do? (I believe.) (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 22:46, 22 June 2008 (UTC))

Consider that a small group of very influential people have made a fortune off of this war. Some of that is oil money, but a lot of it is simply our tax dollars. (See Blackwater Worldwide, Bechtel, Halliburton ) APL (talk) 23:13, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

1) Unless you are one of the types who is prone to believe 9/11 was actually a CIA plot, it is probably most reasonable to believe that Bush did indeed believe that Iraq was a serious threat to US security. There's a thing called confirmation bias - in short, you tend to put weight in even small evidence which confirms what you want to believe, but discount even mounds of evidence which contradicts it. Going into office, Bush had the believe that Saddam was a bad man, and bad men must be stopped (both entirely reasonable). Evidence which supported that view was looked on favorably, whereas doubts were dismissed as insignificant. There is also the echo chamber effect - Bush values loyalty, and surrounds himself with people who have a similar mindset (as do most people). Because of this, though, he isn't exposed to opposition viewpoints as much, and when he is, it's usually from "them", so it's so much easier to discount it. It is highly likely that he convinced himself that Iraq was a real and pressing danger that needed to be taken care of, otherwise the US faced imminent peril. He likely still believes he was correct in that assessment. (Oh, by the way, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball - the best you're going to get here is speculation. The only one who knows for sure is Bush.) 2) I believe that the president always has armored protection kept close at hand, to protect him in case of an assassination attempt. I've heard that the official presidential podiums are bulletproof, and in case of an attack, the president can climb inside. My guess is that the trunk of the convertible was reinforced to be bulletproof, and Jackie was placed there so that she was protected in case of further gunshots. This is just speculation, though. -- 128.104.112.147 (talk) 23:27, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

She didn't climb into the trunk, she climbed onto it - it does look like she is going to pick up pieces of brain, which maybe seemed reasonable at the time considering the extreme shock of the situation, who knows. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:37, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

There has been a lot of speculation about why Bush seemed dead set on going to war with Iraq from a very early period. One is that he had a personal grudge to settle, the whole "he tried to kill my dad" thing relating to Saddam, or that he was trying to finish what his father had started (Freudian theories run wild). Another was that he thought it would provide cheap oil to the US and give the US a good launching point in the Middle East in the post-9/11 era. Another is that he was urged by other neo-Conservatives to do it as part of an neo-Wilsonian effort to remake the world as he saw fit (and to profit certain American interests at the same time). Another is that he was trying to built up a solid "legacy" for his own presidency, as part of the remaking of his image he attempted in the post-9/11 era (where pre-9/11 he was best known for spending most of his time on vacation). Another is that he thought being "tough" there would encourage other "troublesome" nations (Libya, North Korea, Iran) to go along with his policies, etc. It's probably a large mix of things. There was certainly a great deal of confirmation bias in any case, but from all I've read about it, it sounds like he was always just looking for a rationale to do it once he decided to do it. The WMDs might have been official casus belli, but remember that there would have been other ways to deal with that other than unilateral action (well, not totally unilateral, but the "coalition of the willing" was no UN). Anyway, speculation, all. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 23:48, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Scott McClellan discusses the reasons for the Iraq war in What Happened.

Sorry but there is no one liner "The Reason".

There were many people involved in the decision to go to war; each had their own reasons and priorities. For some, the intelligence reports on WMDs were a major driving force; for others, replacing a rather nasty tyrant with democracy; for others encouraging the democracy movement in Iran (put it between two democratic nations); etc. A decision like that doesn't happen so that one guy has A Secret Reason and one day he suddenly decides to go to war.

McClellan writes how the White House made a big mistake in focusing on one reason (WMDs) in public speeches, assuming (perhaps correctly to some degree) that indeed a simple, dumbed down "The Reason" had to be presented to the people. A public discussion on the arguments for war would be too complex for people who want "The Reason" and want to see things in black and white.

Read the book, and try not to to think "Don't Tell Me" while doing so. The book won't give you a simple answer; some things in life are not simple. Even though political opposition may want to make you think so. 88.112.43.206 (talk) 09:37, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Placer Gold

How much less is gold placer worth than gold nuggets and if you find gold placers is that a good sign that gold nuggets aren't too far off? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.127.99.11 (talk) 22:33, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

• I'm no expert but I imagine that the only thing that matters is the purity and weight of the gold. Source is irrelevant to value. Exxolon (talk)

It was my understanding that placer gold was like gold flakes you find in sand, that can't be worth much could it? But would that be a good indication that gold nuggets could be nearby? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.127.97.50 (talk) 23:46, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

A little synchronicity; I encountered the term 'gold placer' for the first time yesterday in an old book, and now I read it here. Funny world.

• Well it all depends on the amount you find. You're right that individually each flake is not worth much but if there are hundreds or thousands of flakes then you have a valuable property. Exxolon (talk) 02:14, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

June 23

Question about Teeth

I have a some questions about teeth. Does straight teeth give you any advantages? Does having white teeth give any advantages?Cardinal Raven (talk) 03:44, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Straight, white teeth are generally associated with youth and good health. So, if there are any advantages being thought youthful and healthy, white, straight teeth would be useful in accruing them. ៛ Bielle (talk) 03:55, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

From my experience, straight teeth are lot more important than you would think in language acquisition (usually SLA, but often even FLA). More frontal fricative sounds like "sh", "f", "th", and "j" (to a certain degree "l" and "r" too) all rely on the teeth in some way to create sound (often as the final barrier to the air flowing through your mouth, above your tongue), and straight teeth rarely cause any problems there. The more misaligned the childrens teeth are, there seems to be a higher likelihood that the child will use an alternate mouth alignment to produce the same sound. E.g., typically "sh" is produced by coaxing the air along the tongue across the alveolar ridge, and then toward the ridge of the teeth. When the teeth are noticeably misaligned, it seems that some children are forced to correct their aim, and will produce different (but similar) sounds to approximate the "sh". The same applies for other sounds.

Especially with second language acquisition, students with straighter teeth often seem to have more confidence producing sounds that don't exist in their mother tongue. My assumption is that people naturally avoid touching their teeth with their tongue, except when necessary, and children with misaligned teeth tend to loop into much more constrictive avoidance patterns because there are a lot more shapes inside the mouth getting in the way, and there is often also a greater risk of damage to the tongue. Students with straight teeth seem to have less reluctance to stick out their tongues, and thus with greater freedom of movement with their tongues, they may manage to master certain new sounds easier than those with misaligned teeth. I don't think it's a coincidence that all of my long-term 1 on 1 accent training sessions (this is all informal) have been with students with relatively or badly misaligned teeth. It is often clear that they also have problems (though they've found way around them) pronouncing certain sounds properly in their own language. 210.254.117.186 (talk) 04:32, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

And I disagree with the opinion that straight teeth are associated with youth. Maybe on TV they are, but especially more recently, it is the youth that struggle with misaligned teeth, and they are often corrected by the time they become adults. 210.254.117.186 (talk) 04:35, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Judging by the rest of your response, I'm guessing that SLA and FLA stand for Second & First Language Acquisition? Dismas|^(talk) 04:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I've linked the now. 210.254.117.186 (talk) 07:51, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Staring through a pinhole

I am slightly nearsighted and occasionally wear glasses. I noticed that if I poke a very small hole with a pin in a piece of paper and hold it right up against my eye and look through it, everything becomes in focus. As the hole is small, this is not viable for looking at dark objects, however, when watching TV through this tiny hole, everything in the TV becomes in focus, just like as if I am wearing my glasses. Why does this phenomenon happen? Thanks. Acceptable (talk) 05:01, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

See depth of field. Basically you are constructing a pin-hole aperture, which increases the depth of field in your vision, making out of focus images clearer. Squinting your eye works in the same principle is well. --antilived^{T | C | G} 05:24, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Also perhaps of interest is Camera obscura (think that's the spelling) - essentially that same thing can be used in a very-dark room and it will project the image on to the wall (think it does it back-to-front and upside-down if my memory of seeing it on tv is correct). Very interseting stuff. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 08:22, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

There are also (surprisingly expensive)spectacles available which use this principle to amazing effect, however focussing is achieved at the cost of narrowing of the vision field. You might like to make a pair, check this link for details. [11] Richard Avery (talk) 09:23, 23 June 2008 (UTC)