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March 15

Ride of the Valkyrie

Resolved

This is probably a good one for Jack, who's the resident classical music expert. Does anyone know just what German words Kirsten Flagstad is singing here?[1] They don't seem to match the libretto from the opera.[2] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:56, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

I believe that's from when we first meet Brunhilde in Act II, see libretto here (basically, from Brunhilde's first words). It's not the Ride of the Valkyries, which starts off Act III. I think that's the introductory music to Act II, arranged to cut out Wotan's part, and leading into Brunhilde's first vocal appearance. (given that this is the opera from which I take my name …) --Wehwalt (talk) 03:14, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

OK, just as long as you don't start wearing a metal, conical bra... :-) StuRat (talk) 03:37, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

That's it exactly. Thank you! P.S. I hope you enjoyed watching Bob Hope introduce Kirsten Flagstad. That's not something you would see every day. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:30, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

That's perfectly OK; it was my pleasure. 'Twas nothing, really. Please don't mention it. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 03:39, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

new constitution in kenya

what are the impacts of new constitution to education sector in kenya — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.89.10.241 (talk) 06:03, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

One immediate effect has been the launching of a public education program to inform Kenyans about the constitution [3] Sh 1.3 billion ($15 million US) has been allocated for it.

Another is probably the Universities Bill just recently signed into law [4] which will increase oversight. The article about the bill also says students will be able to take the degree programs of their choice (apparently not possible now?).

You can read the constitution here. It outlines who is responsible for education (mostly the national government as opposed to the county governments) and that everyone has a right to an education. 184.147.116.201 (talk) 16:00, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

It will enforce that Kenyan children will do their homework themselves, and not post it on the Internet for others to solve. Indeed, it will become a criminal offense not to do your homework in time. The impact will be quite positive, both for the pupils as well as for the Internet users, who will be left alone. OsmanRF34 (talk) 16:01, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Très drôle. Alansplodge (talk) 23:23, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

New Jersey Courts

I'm looking at a Court Disposition for the state of New Jersey in the USA. Under the secion 'plea' they have '9' but the disposition didn't come with a decoder. What does plea 9 in New Jersey mean? 65.69.34.2 (talk) 18:18, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't assume all courts in NJ use the same codes, but if this is a municipal traffic case you could look at [5] and see if it makes sense. According to that file, '9' = 'not applicable'. - Nunh-huh 01:59, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Thirteenth century clothing

Llywelyn the Great and sons

In our article it shows an image apparently of ca 1259 of Llywelyn the Great and his sons in some sort of "robes". How would these "robes" have been made (i.e. material makeup). Is there more than one piece? Overclothes? Underclothes?--Doug Coldwell (talk) 21:55, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Do 1200–1300 in fashion and 1300–1400 in fashion help at all? --ColinFine (talk) 23:39, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

(ec) It looks like they are wearing an undergarment and an overcloak. My guess is that the undergarment would have been made of linen and the overcloak of wool. Since they were royalty, cotton is a possibility, but it was very expensive and hard to come by at that time. Looie496 (talk) 23:41, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

O.K. Thanks. From this I get the idea that the undergarment was a tunic or version thereof and the overcloak was a toga or version thereof. What would the belt around the toga (if there was one) been made of?--Doug Coldwell (talk) 13:58, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Could the undergarment have been made of silk, since they appeared wealthy?--Doug Coldwell (talk) 14:45, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Since you pinged me, I'll reply even though I don't really know anything. All I really know about this topic is that linen and wool were by far the most widely used fabrics in Britain at that time, and wool would not have been great for an undergarment because it is rough-feeling and nonabsorbent. Looie496 (talk) 17:33, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Since silk was so expensive it wouldn't have been used for undergarments at that date. Cotton would have been rare too. For the most luxurious garments, furs and metallic thread. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:45, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for replies. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 23:28, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Christianity & tolerance

I realize this question will be controversial and somewhat opinion-based, but I'll try to be as respectful as possible. Why are most Christians today so tolerant? As far as I can tell, the vast majority of Christians believe that all non-believers will be doomed to hell, from which there is no escape. Yet most of them don't try to force non-believers to convert to Christianity, and might even fight for the rights of atheists and people of other religions. Why is this the case, and is there any Biblical basis for this belief? If I were Christian, and I believed that my friends were doomed to hell, I'd do everything I could to force them to convert, up to and including torture. After all, what's the harm of a few years or decades of pain, if it prevents an eternity of torture in hell? If a liberal Christian heard that his friend became insane and wants to jump off a building, wouldn't he try to stop his friend, even if it means using physical force? --140.180.249.27 (talk) 23:10, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

I think that the Liberal Christian view is that living in a way that attempts to live up to the Christian ideals is a better way of bringing people round to your views than any use of force. The "non-believers go to hell" doctrine would be probably be considered rather medieval by many Christians in the UK, although I'm sure that there are still parts of the world where it still has currency. Alansplodge (talk) 23:20, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't know of any Christian denomination which believes that forced conversions have any validity. Forcing someone to make a Christian confession, from a Christian perspective, does not make them a Christian, so it would be quite useless and only create fake Christians. - Lindert (talk) 23:28, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

I meant forcing the non-Christian to read the Bible, study Christian theology, and the like, in the hope that she will start to truly believe in Christianity. The typical Christian liberal is likely to oppose this, by opposing mandatory Bible studies in public schools, for instance. --140.180.249.27 (talk) 23:59, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't seem that that would be an effective strategy (not to mention the moral implications). If anything, people would be repulsed by Christians behaving in such a way, and be driven away from Christianity. In any case, though attitudes towards evangelism vary, there is widespread agreement that evangelism should be in conformity with the morals taught by Jesus, and imitate his apostles. Furthermore, many Christians recognize that while they are called to preach, they do not have the power in themselves to convert people, because that is the work of the Holy Spirit. - Lindert (talk) 00:12, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

The values of secular liberalism have been extremely influential in predominantly Christian areas of the world (e.g. Europe and the Americas, among other places) in the last three hundred years. This has generally led to a lot less fundamentalism and a lot less insistence on the use of the secular order to enforce a cosmic order. One needs to see this not as inherent to Christianity (much of Christianity prior to the last 300 years was not at all like this, and there are still Christians who feel this way, but they are definitely in minorities, no matter how loud they sometimes sound in American politics) and not as inherent to changes to world thought in general (there are still many people in many parts of the world who are just as rejecting of secular liberalism; consider how different most of the Muslim world is in this respect). The short answer is, most people in Christian nations don't really believe that using state power to force religion onto people is the right thing to do. Asking why that is the case necessarily leads you back to the Enlightenment, the wars of religion it came out of, the history of thinking about just government, and so on, and historically it gets quite complicated very quickly if you want to look into it in a non-glib way. --Mr.98 (talk) 02:37, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure the OP has it right. As someone who has been aggressively attacked here by conservative Christians, been the victim of their attempts to silence me, and who has seen the nonsense they want to add to articles like Evolution and Richard Dawkins, I have serious doubts about their tolerance. Maybe such Christians are only a minority, but they're a powerful and bloody annoying one, and if more liberal Christians are more common, they would do well to condemn the bigots in their ranks. HiLo48 (talk) 07:34, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

While it is true that there are indeed fundamentalist, extremist Christians, on the whole they are far less common than moderate ones. In places where the loudest megaphone wins (internet debates, American political radio, etc.) it is easy to exaggerate the prevalence of such strains of religion, but systematic surveys of these things show such people to be firmly in the minority. A loud minority, but a minority. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:18, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

I highly doubt that even the conservative Christians would have physically abused you if they had the chance. The same can't be said for the Islamic world, for example. Try going to Saudi Arabia and expressing anti-religious sentiments there, to see what happens to your head. --140.180.249.27 (talk) 07:46, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

I'll attempt to paraphrase that... "I think it's OK for conservative Christians to be aggressive, dishonest bigots because some Muslims are worse." Please stay on topic. HiLo48 (talk) 07:54, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

(ec) I think this is the start of a long, controversial debate. By "here", I assume you mean WP, rather than "here" as in "there", where you live. I think the OP is talking about being tolerant in a physical sense, ie. not trying to force conversions, so it is about tolerance relative to beliefs. One might argue that the beliefs are intolerant, but if they are what they are, then the behaviour is presumed by the OP to be tolerant relative to these beliefs. It is a reasonable premise, at any rate. IBE (talk) 07:49, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

There is a significant range of tolerance and intolerance across most any religion. It really comes down to individuals. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:10, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes. I suspect the problem is that the less tolerant members of any religion get the bulk of the publicity, and try harder to exercise power, sometimes successfully. HiLo48 (talk) 08:19, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

On that note, yes, I heartily agree. I've even suggested this to Christians, that one of the problems with their beliefs in public life is that they don't really have a voice - they have to sound a bit outrageous to get any attention. They tend to agree. In Australia, that means the spokespeople go haywire about eg. gay marriage. The Christians I know oppose it, but the Christians who get to talk to the media use weak logic, and a dash of extravagance. I have heard saner voices arguing that this will only make them look bad. IBE (talk) 08:44, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Actually I meant "there", meaning in the Western world. I'm asking about the general public, because I'm not that interested in the opinions of Wikipedia editors. That said, thanks to everyone who have taken a stab at my question. --140.180.249.27 (talk) 08:58, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

March 16

North Korea's military tendencies

After all my questions on North Korea throughout the years, and despite reading several Wikipedia articles on the topic, there's still one thing I don't understand. Why is North Korea so aggressive in the first place? They have nuclear ambitions, seriously want to build ICBMs (which by itself isn't a bad thing, but with their behavior lately, that would be worrying), and threaten an attack on South Korea and/or the US because of military drills (although military drills by themselves aren't an indication of an impending invasion; for example, the US and the Philippines have military drills all the time but the Philippines doesn't want to invade a country anytime soon) or sanctions. I know that the US is partly to blame for the Korean War (if it weren't for them, Korea would have been united), but that's another story. But still, in the first place, why is North Korea so aggressive? To get what they want? (but then again, if they weren't so aggressive, they wouldn't have sanctions in the first place) They understand that their behavior is doing more harm than good, both to the world stage and to their own people, but why do they continue to practice such behavior? Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 03:49, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

They need an enemy to justify repression of their own citizens. If there was no enemy, and no sanctions, then the people would start to ask why they are starving while the ruling class is living in luxury. This is especially true because they have the example of South Korea, with a fully functional economy, just over the border (and the same with China, over the other border). With nobody to blame this on, it would become quite obvious that the discrepancy is due to the policies of their government. StuRat (talk) 04:31, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

It should be noted that western democracies also find it convenient at times to paint North Korea as the Devil's spawn. The declaration by Dubya that it was part of the Axis of Evil is a classic example. That announcement was part of him seemingly needing an enemy to blame and condemn. HiLo48 (talk) 07:39, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

See false equivalence. --140.180.249.27 (talk) 07:42, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

The so-called "axis of evil" inclued Iraq, which was an exaggeration, and excluded Pakistan. Otherwise, it was on track, despite that rather silly name. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:06, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, but that doesn't mean you say it out loud. That was counter-productive. StuRat (talk) 16:22, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Subtlety is way down the list of Dubya's personality traits. At least he didn't pull a Reagan and say "The bombing starts tomorrow". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:13, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

There are many complex answers to this kind of question. A few of the factors involved:

• A lot of North Korean bellicosity is for a domestic audience, not an international one. We are not terribly privy to the internal politics of North Korea, but keeping their people (and their generals, and their soldiers) in line is certainly part of what these actions help achieve. It is a common tactic in all nations (not just totalitarian ones) to emphasize the threat from abroad as a means of achieving domestic unity.
• At the same time, the North also has a pattern of being "bad" to achieve some kind of future deal. They have to have bargaining room. So they will build a reactor, test a bomb or two, and then say, "OK, we'll take apart the reactor, for some more food." Great, but once you've taken apart the reactor, then what? You act "bad" again, get everybody back to the bargaining table, and then you can promise to act "good" again in exchange for something. It's a game, and everyone involved in said bargaining knows it is a game, but the alternative to the game is North Korea acting worse, and possibly actual war, and so most players are willing to play along.
• North Korea also has a genuine security concern. They do not have many good friends, and their enemies are quite powerful. Lumping them into the "Axis of Evil" was not a mere rhetorical point, especially when one such country soon had a war declared against it (under false pretenses, at it turned out), and the other is a country where war occasionally seems very likely (and there are assassinations, sabotage, and other issues). They are correct to see their situation as painted into a corner. They are correct to perceive that if the US felt they could topple them tomorrow, with a minimum of "cost", they would probably do so. As it is, making it clear that the cost would be high in such a case is a solid strategy.
• There may also be unknown psychological factors at work here amongst the leaders of the North Korean government. North Korea is a state the concentrates a lot of power at the top. That means that whomever is at the top is going to have a disproportionate influence on their domestic and international policies — much more so than any state where power is more diffused. As such, idiosyncrasies, psychological hangups, strange beliefs, and so on, can manifest themselves politically in unpredictable ways. I don't think we know much about the current leader, and that hampers our accurate analysis.

There are no doubt other factors as well. My main point is, there is unlikely one simple answer to this kind of behavior. It serves multiple purposes. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:15, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

I disagree that NK has legitimate security concerns. Their conventional military was quite sufficient to prevent a US attack, and they could also have relied on China to defend them. So, the concept of a US attack there is absurd. StuRat (talk) 16:26, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

The first point is moot, and the second is questionable. Why would China necessarily defend North Korea? Political constellations change - just see Hitler-Stalin Pact. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:15, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

China feels the need to have a buffer zone between itself and the free world. Hence their continuing occupation of Tibet. StuRat (talk) 10:17, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Just in case some modern-day Hannibal decides to attack China by leading an army across the Himalayas. That's why they're working feverishly to re-create the Wooly Mammoth. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:25, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Like it or not, most of the free world accepts that Tibet is just as much a part of China as Beijing is. So, where's the buffer zone now? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 20:35, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Bilateral talks vs. six party talks

I was reading over here that NK only wants bilateral talks with America to strengthen their ties with them, while America will only accept six party talks. It says that the reason why America rejects bilateral talks is because they violated previous bilateral talks, but that sounds like a cop out to me. If they violate bilateral talks, why would America believe they wouldn't violate six party talks? Doesn't make sense, but I'll ask my question anyway. Why does America care (if they are acting in their own best interest which they are) if it's six party talks or bilateral talks? ScienceApe (talk) 07:11, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

This refers to the Six-party talks that have already been going on for a decade, which also involve the other regional interested parties (China, Russia, South Korea, and Japan). Adam Bishop (talk) 10:17, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

China is the key. They are the only ones who can put pressure on NK to actually fulfill their obligations. That is, they can cut off the supply lifeline they give to NK, which is vital to NK's survival. So, the hope is that, if the agreement includes China, then China will enforce it. StuRat (talk) 16:20, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Another reason is that the US doesn't want to appear to be unilaterally bullying North Korea.--Wikimedes (talk) 10:08, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

That seems rather backwards. It's NK who keeps threatening to attack everyone in sight. StuRat (talk) 10:12, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it is backwards, but a little thing like logic won't stop North Korea from screaming "victim" or people who see Yankee imperialism in all US foreign policy actions from agreeing with them. Along the same lines, if the US dealt directly with North Korea without input from countries and people who are actually in the region, it wouldn't be unreasonable to see the US as sticking its nose into other people's business.--Wikimedes (talk) 20:19, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

forz d/c

What is the etymology of this term (it is used in jewellery)?Curb Chain (talk) 07:14, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Can you give an example of where it is used? --ColinFine (talk) 21:30, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

[6][7]Curb Chain (talk) 00:08, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

What a surprisingly hard one to figure out! I suppose one could ask one of the sellers. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 18:10, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I had never heard of the term. Given how uniform the examples are in the ads, are you sure it is not simply a brand name? --ColinFine (talk) 01:02, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Well, both chains are made of Italian silver and forza (note the a), is Italian for strength, so I've got to think that's related somehow, but searches down that line of inquiry keep circling back to Forza Italia and related topics, which seems a red herring. Consider my curiosity is piqued... Matt Deres (talk) 01:41, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Dunno about "forz", but the "d/c" bit is surely short for "diamond cut", which means the links have flat, polished facets cut into them to make them sparkle, like this.--Rallette (talk) 08:23, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

...got it: "forz" is clearly short for "forzatina", which seems to be the Italian term for a simple chain, in jewellery.--Rallette (talk) 08:57, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Columbus (Pt), Franklin, Ohio, United States

Resolved

Like in this census here - what does the (Pt) / (Pt.) there stand for? I did not find a reasonable explanation in pt. Thanks for answers! GEEZER^{nil nisi bene} 09:08, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

I'd suggest it means 'part thereof', or words to that effect. Columbus City, although mainly in Franklin County, also extends into Delaware County and Fairfield County (although the table suggests that in 1980 it had not yet grown into the former). The table first gives the total population of Columbus, and then the populations of the parts within Franklin and Fairfield, denoted with (pt). - Cucumber Mike (talk) 09:24, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! I found the same but much more complicated explanation (streches over... including ... etc. etc.) of what you suggest. Case closed. Do you think this could be entered (connection: census, geography) in pt ? GEEZER^{nil nisi bene} 09:36, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Cool. Personally I'd say that the definition belongs at Wiktionary (in fact, it's already there), but then again lots of things in that list belong at Wiktionary to my mind. If you want to add it, go ahead. I won't stop you. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 09:40, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Can you find me?

What's the number of the film director Manoel de Oliveira on the list of 'oldest man living in Portugal'? 84.110.36.209 (talk) 11:42, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

What do you want us to find for you ? His phone number ? StuRat (talk) 16:17, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

You can read. Which place his in the list of the oldest men in Portugal.82.81.208.29 (talk) 16:32, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Being rude to responders here, who are unpaid volunteers, is not your best approach when seeking information. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:11, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Your English isn't clear. "Which position on the list does he occupy ?" would be the way to ask that clearly. Also, it should be "oldest men" not "man", and "Can you find this for me ?". StuRat (talk) 16:41, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

This isn't the answer, but is somewhat relevant: List of Portuguese supercentenarians. StuRat (talk) 16:46, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

This book (describing age 105+ as a semi-supercentenarian) gives 19 such men in Germany in 2002 and maybe the number goes up two or three fold each decade.[8] The population of Germany is about 7.7 times Portugal so perhaps perhaps only a handful of men in Portugal are older than Manoel de Oliveira who is 104. My grandfather was 104 when he died in 1994 and he wasn't even the oldest person in his care home (but he was the oldest man). Warning, these are "validated" cases. Many very elderly people overstate their age and many possibly genuine extreme ages cannot be validated.Thincat (talk) 20:52, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Africa Natural Geographical Border

My question is which country in Africa has a n atural border or is a geographical entity by itself. For example undivided India and Pakistan used to form a geographical entity before being partitioned. Solomon7968 (talk) 14:42, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Madagascar ? StuRat (talk) 16:16, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

When Kim Jong Un said he would "rain bullets" against the enemy

close trolling by banned user
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
did that include Japan? Hyerotaku (talk) 14:56, 16 March 2013 (UTC) It was said by a 80 year old Korean War veteran, not by Kim Jong Un. [9] --PlanetEditor (talk) 15:14, 16 March 2013 (UTC) Oh sorry. But anyway, does it include Japan? Hyerotaku (talk) 15:20, 16 March 2013 (UTC) He was a veteran of the Korean War. So by enemy he probably indicates South Korea, North's enemy during Korean War, not Japan. --PlanetEditor (talk) 15:25, 16 March 2013 (UTC) This question is trolling by the banned user Timothyhere/Kotjap. μηδείς (talk) 16:44, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Why is North Korea so aggressive toward Japan?

close trolling by banned user
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
If Japan has done nothing to them? Hyerotaku (talk) 15:53, 16 March 2013 (UTC) See Japan–North Korea relations. --PlanetEditor (talk) 15:59, 16 March 2013 (UTC) This question is trolling by the banned user Timothyhere/Kotjap. μηδείς (talk) 16:44, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Gospel Amen

This is probably a stupid question, but I'm hoping for some nice references. In the song Amen_(The_Impressions_song), did Jester write the Amen chorus, or did he just arrange an existing Amen and add verses? I ask because I've heard that particular Amen tune used liturgically and, although not impossible given the people involved*, it seems unlikely that a film and pop tune was chosen. (*The hymn "My God loves me" to the tune Chanson d'amour strikes me as particularly incongruous, in retrospect.) 86.161.209.78 (talk) 16:18, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

The article used the term "popularized". That implies there was an existing Amen song. 75.185.79.52 (talk) 16:50, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Well, it says the Impressions popularized the song written by Jester for the film Lilies of the Field. 86.161.209.78 (talk) 16:53, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

My understanding of the article tells me that Jester first wrote the song for the film Lilies of the Field. Then, an artist for the Impressions heard it and was inspired by it, thereby creating a new version. It is possible that Jester got inspired from the liturgical version, or vice versa. I assume that people "don't live in a vacuum", always influencing or influenced by the environment. Another possibility is that the liturgical version and the film version just happens to sound similar to you or happens either simultaneously or spontaneously, as is the case with Isaac Newton and Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz in a debate on who discovered calculus. 75.185.79.52 (talk) 18:32, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Is it possible for a non-Jewish person to assimilate into the Jewish culture or become an ethnic Jew?

Is it possible for a non-Jewish person to assimilate into the Jewish culture or become an ethnic Jew? Or do you have to be born into a Jewish family with two Jewish parents? If a child is born into a Jewish family, loses his parents, and becomes adopted by a family of a different faith and cultural background, then would that child lose his Jewish status if he practices the faith of his new adoptive parents and learns the cultural ways of his parents, or does he remain forever an "ethnic Jew" even though he is brought up into totally different culture and religion? If the person's race is Asian, but he is brought up in a Hispanic Catholic culture instead of an indigenous Asian culture, then would that person's ethnicity be Hispanic Catholic? Another question is, if a person grows up in a densely populated Jewish/Christian/Muslim community and practices the religion and culture of those groups but that person has non-Jewish/non-Christian/non-Muslim parents, then would those groups accept that person as a member of the community? 75.185.79.52 (talk) 16:39, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

If you haven't seen it yet, I'll point you to the article Who is a Jew?, which the launching point for figuring out what it means to be Jewish. (Answer: it's complicated, and depends on who you ask.) Regarding community acceptance, it highly depends on the community (on a finer level than just generic Jewish/Christian/Muslim). -- 71.35.100.68 (talk) 19:02, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

The simple answer is yes, one can assimilate, and, no, one cannot change one's ethnicity. μηδείς (talk) 19:09, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Race is not the same thing as ethnicity. Race has more to do with physical appearance and ancestry. Ethnicity has more to do with culture. 75.185.79.52 (talk) 19:43, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Well, wiggers show that anybody can assimilate into anything. That said, if you're an uncircumcised male, you need to either get circumcised or "keep it in your pants", if you want to "pass". StuRat (talk) 19:17, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Some of the most committed Jews I have known were born to other religions. As for the convert to another religion, the quote (I probably misquote) which I have always felt summed it up was "until the day of his death You wait for him".--Wehwalt (talk) 19:44, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Conversion to Judaism has the answer. Bottom-line: the Jewish people doesn't seem eager to accept anyone, contrary to the Christian and Muslim practice, but it's possible. OsmanRF34 (talk) 19:51, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Christians and Muslims see it is their divine responsibility to expand the flock. Jews figure if you don't want to be Jewish, they won't stop you. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:18, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but ethnos and natio refer to relationship by birth. So regardless of the starnge idea above that one can become ethnically Jewish, it ain't hapennin. μηδείς (talk) 20:40, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

According to this logic, you wouldn't be able to become a citizen of a country by naturalization, only by birth. The problem with analyzing words' meanings from a etymological perspective is that their meanings wander, sometimes into something completely different. OsmanRF34 (talk) 20:49, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

This "logic"? Ethnicity and citizenship are totally separate concepts, but feel free to make up whatever meaning for words you like, I don't care. μηδείς (talk) 02:39, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

I think OsmanRF34 is referring to the usage of the root words ethnos and natio as justification for the term "ethnicity" to mean "relationship by birth". However, according to this website, it seems that it provides a comparison between race and ethnicity, which supports the notion that ethnicity is more "nurture" whereas race is more "nature". 75.185.79.52 (talk) 03:04, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

75.185.79.52—you ask "Is it possible for a non-Jewish person to assimilate into the Jewish culture or become an ethnic Jew?" Can you clarify what you mean by the term "ethnic Jew"? Bus stop (talk) 02:48, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps this may clarify. To be on the safe side, does anybody know a respectful term for a person with a Jewish ethnicity? According to that dictionary definition, the word "Jew" is regarded as offensive. To prevent causing offense to these types of people, maybe it's best to refer to them as "God's chosen people"? 75.185.79.52 (talk) 02:52, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

"X is Jewish" is perfectly acceptable to refer to an ethnically Jewish person who is secular, i.e. use an adjective rather than a noun ("a Jew," "a Jewess"). To specify (if known) that the person is religiously observant, perhaps say/write, "an observant Jew" or "a practicing Jew" - and if the level of observance is known, "an Orthodox Jew, a Haredi Jew," etc. For those who aren't converted at the belief-and-practice level, I would maintain that ethnicity can not be adopted. See philosemitism, an uncommon word that's the opposite of antisemitism, and note that both words refer to attitudes toward Jews, not Semites. -- Deborahjay (talk) 06:56, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

No, the dictionary definition says "Jew lawyer" or "Jew doctor" are offensive. "Jewish lawyer", "Jewish doctor", and "there are 7 Jews on the council" are unobjectionable, at least in the minds of reasonable people. I'm not sure if you're trying to be provocative by saying "God's chosen people", but 62 percent of Jews are non-religious, and much of the remaining 38 percent are likely to be offended by the racist connotations of "God's chosen people". --140.180.249.27 (talk) 08:05, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I wasn't being provocative. I didn't realize that 62% of Jews were nonreligious. Oops. 75.185.79.52 (talk) 19:54, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

In any case the Chosen people are Koreans. μηδείς (talk) 02:32, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Huh? 75.185.79.52 (talk) 00:36, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Art Work

Does Wikipedia identify works of art or who the artist is if the signature of the artist is not legible & is there a feature on Wikipedia to upload pics of the artwork? Thanks very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.208.57.47 (talk) 19:47, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

There is no formal mechanism for that, but people at this Reference desk might try to be helpful if we can see a picture of the artwork. Unfortunately, you probably can't upload a picture of it here unless you have permission by the copyright holder. Looie496 (talk) 21:33, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

If you are confident that the image is old enough to be out of copyright you can upload it. If you upload it elsewhere - for example on Flickr - you can link to the website from here. Paul B (talk) 22:03, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

I wonder whether there is a fair-use clause that would allow uploading a picture, maybe a low-resolution picture, of a painting which is still under copyright. Being the intention clearly to find the artist, it seems acceptable for any one with common sense (although not necessarily under the law). OsmanRF34 (talk) 22:51, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

No need. If the OP wants to find out, he could easily upload the picture to an external file hosting site like Imageshack or Photobucket (or whatever the cool kids are using these days -- Flickr?). Then the WMF would not bear any liability for possible copyright infringement. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 02:29, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Can the person posting the original question please say where they are encountering the artwork which they would like some information about? If, of course, the image is online, you could just provide a link to an image of the work of art. Bus stop (talk) 02:47, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

One might try a TinEye reverse image search... - Nunh-huh 07:20, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

If the art work is uploaded to another site and is under copyright, hard to say when it's not known who the artist is, it can't be linked to as per Wikipedia:Copyrights#Linking to copyrighted works. Also any fair use (Wikipedia:Non-free content) images can only be used in articles. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 07:08, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Elves and spirits braiding hair: Looking for early mentions in written records

I recently wrote a blog article about how some people believe hair locks from natural matting (a.k.a. elf-locks) were actually braided by Bigfoot creatures. I'm compiling a list of supernatural creatures associated with tying hair into knots and or braiding it. The earliest mention I've found is from the 13th-century; William of Auvergne wrote about female spirits that plait the hair of horses with wax. This belief has to obviously predate his writings. Does anyone know of earlier mentions? What about in other countries besides Europe and America? --Ghostexorcist (talk) 23:40, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

March 17

National Assembly of south korea Squre

What buildings surround the National Assembly of south korea square? Photos, panoramas, and videos are greatly appreciated.Curb Chain (talk) 01:13, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

I went to Google Maps and typed in the address: "1 Uisadang-daero, Yeongdeungpo, Seoul, South Korea" to get this: [10]. Now zoom in using the plus sign under the orange man in the upper, left corner, check out the satellite view, then drag the orange man and drop him on a blue square near the building. Each blue square gives thumbnails of some 20 pics, half of which are the building itself, and half of which are surrounding buildings and sculptures. Press the X in the upper, right corner after you are done with each view. StuRat (talk) 03:04, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

The madness of King Henry

What sort of insanity is inherited? The Henry VI of England article says he inherited the same sort of insanity which plagued Charles VI of France. What sort of insanity would that be? RNealK (talk) 06:14, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

It's hard to know what actual clinical entities if any correspond to historical diagnoses; I think Henry VI is usually said to have manifested symptoms suggestive of Major depression and depressive psychosis. See [11]. It's about 50% heritable. - Nunh-huh 07:18, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Diagnoses at this distance in time are almost impossible, but my impression is that Charles VI probably had schizophrenia, whereas Henry VI was probably mentally retarded -- he seems to have been generally clueless even on his best days. His "insanity" looks to me like mainly an inability to deal with the complexities of being a king. But to repeat, it's very difficult to know. Looie496 (talk) 17:22, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Roman's battle plan

On what did Romans generals show their battle plan? On the ground writing with a stick? Moving little stones as they were legions? ... I'm Italian, so I'm sorry for my English. Thank you. --Innocenti Erleor (talk) 16:47, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Not sure if we will be able to find a source for this, but I see no reason why they wouldn't have used the same system used in WW2, a map on a table with figurines for various units being pushed around. StuRat (talk) 17:18, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Paper had not been invented in the West and parchment had not been invented. Papyrus could have been used but it rots in a humid climate.
Sleigh (talk) 18:59, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Papyrus won't last centuries in a humid climate like it will in an arid one, but it's perfectly serviceable for for the length of a military campaign. --Nicknack009 (talk) 19:21, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

And parchment was invented, according to our article, sometime between 263 and 158 BCE - well within the scope of the Roman era. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 19:28, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Or 2500 BCE if you read farther into our poorly organized article. Rmhermen (talk) 20:52, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

How about cloth, made of linen ? That would be better than paper, in a couple ways: It doesn't fall apart if it gets wet, and it doesn't wear through as quickly where you fold it (although rolling paper maps up and storing them in sealed tubes can also prevent both problems). StuRat (talk) 19:08, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Well yes, but in Roman times the standard way of recording information for short periods (i.e. anything that wouldn't need to be archived) was on Wax tablets. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 19:26, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Plutarch, Parallel Lives, "Caesar" 49.4: Julius Caesar escapes battle around Alexandria by swimming while holding many "little books" ("βιβλίδια") over his head, despite incoming arrows. My thought: Perhaps these had battle plans, since he was so anxious to keep them from the enemy. Note the translation of "papers" for "βιβλίδια". --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 22:51, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

• If I remember my BBC I, Claudius correctly, they used little models on tables apparently covered in parchment maps, kind of like you see in WWII movies. μηδείς (talk) 04:52, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I am grateful to you for your help. --Innocenti Erleor (talk) 19:05, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

You plural, or you singular? μηδείς (talk) 00:44, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Were birds-eye maps used during the Roman Empire? Would such maps have made sense? RNealK (talk) 22:06, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

All evidence points to the fact that the people of the classical period were as intelligent and able to abstract as are moderns. In fact, moderns seem stupider if you ask me, but that may be because back then the illiterate didn't have twitter accounts or email. See the contents of the Loeb Classical Library. μηδείς (talk) 00:48, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

The Tabula Peutingeriana is a bird's-eye map of the Roman world...although it dates from about 1000 years later. And the article is not very clear on whether or not it is a copy of an actual Roman map, or if it was compiled in the Middle Ages from Roman data. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:02, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

No, it's because you don't know much about the ancients. See Flynn effect. People are getting smarter, which is not surprising--we have far better nutrition, longer life expectancy, fewer hardships, and easier access to information. --140.180.248.40 (talk) 02:08, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

The Flynn effect, for whatever it's worth (hint: not much), doesn't have anything to do with ancient people. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:14, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

The Flynn Effect applies to the general populace. I thought I mentioned that the "general populace" (illiterate) didn't "contaminate the sample" (twitter) during the classical period. μηδείς (talk) 02:22, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I suppose you've never been to Pompeii, then. More people were literate than we tend to think. Even the prostitutes at Pompeii could write. The grafitti there brings a whole new meaning to the phrase 'Vulgar Latin'. This was their LIBER FACIES, without the LOL FELES. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 23:38, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Birds-eye mapping has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence and is entirely having to do with culture. If nobody you know has ever used a birds-eye map, it's not intuitively obvious. RNealK (talk) 05:13, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

What other kinds of maps could there have been besides birds-eye maps? They would be mapping on a 2D surface, not in 3D, and just drawing a picture of the landscape is not really a map, nor is it helpful. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 15:05, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I thank you all (plural). Personally, considering your opinions, I think it is more probably they used maps (sometimes perhaps only sketchs) on a table as in WWII, as in the film called "Downfall". I don't think they used wax tablets because they are useful to write message/order to a person, but not to show your battle plans and to discuss about them: they are too small. About birds-eye maps, it is a good matter, but I don't know anything about ancient's minds. Thank you again. --Innocenti Erleor (talk) 19:58, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Another kind of ancient map, of sorts, is a Periplus, which is not quite a map in the modern sense, but a list of landmarks and cities and ideally distances between various places. Adam Bishop (talk) 23:02, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Art hunt - painting of slave beating

Several years ago I remember coming across a disturbing painting of a slave beating, which I thought I had seen on WP; but a look through the Slavery in the United States article and the associated media on Wikimedia Commons fails to turn it up. Wonder if any of you guys know this painting - I can't find it with Google Images.

As best I recall, it was a well-detailed contemporary painting, from say the 1820's to 1850's, done in vivid colors, perhaps oils, representing a scene the artist had witnessed somewhere in the South. At left, a fashionably dressed young man in a broad-brimmed hat, smoking a cigar I think, impassively leans against a house or shed while at right, a writhing African slave is held down on the ground by fellow slaves while being whipped/beaten/tortured. A terrible scene, but what makes it truly shocking is the utter nonchalance of the young man, possibly the slave's owner, who stands by with a slightly bored, detached look on his face.

Ring a bell for any art historians out there? Appreciate your help in locating this image again.Textorus (talk) 19:59, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Beating at Four Stakes in the Colonies --Viennese Waltz 20:06, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

That was quick, thanks. But although it presents a similar scene, it's not the same painting. The one I recall doesn't have women and children, and instead of a lot of sky, there was greenery in the background. And the focus was more "close-up" on the human figures. Appreciate the suggestion, though. Textorus (talk) 20:12, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

March 18

"Freedom in Prison" by Roberto Assagioli

According to [12], just before his death Roberto Assagioli worked on an article entitled "Freedom in Prison". Does anyone know where I could find this article? --noosphere 02:09, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

The original name is Libertà in prigione which returns many google hits in Italian. μηδείς (talk) 02:28, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Catholic celibacy

when and what was the reason for celibacy in the Catholic church — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.255.105.117 (talk) 03:45, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Celibacy in the Roman Catholic Church. μηδείς (talk) 04:47, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Anthropomorphism versus therianthropomorphism

Are both concepts involved in the Furry fandom, or just the former? What's psychological reason for appealing to an individual? Is that even an apt question? Plasmic Physics (talk) 12:40, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

What is therianthropomorphism? --PlanetEditor (talk) 14:36, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

We have an article on therianthropy, believe it or not. Looie496 (talk) 16:56, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

In the same way that we have an article on Furry fandom. OsmanRF34 (talk) 19:45, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

The question is not apt for this RD. You should have posted in the entertaining RD. OsmanRF34 (talk) 19:45, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Why? Furry fandom is a sociological subject. RNealK (talk) 22:09, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

The boundaries of the fandom are not precisely defined - the distiction the OP mentions is related to the "fan"/"lifestyler" (alt.fan.albedo/alt.horror.werewolves) distinction, but not identical with it. Therianthropy wouldn't be regarded as being outside the fandom, but some interest in anthropomorphic animals would probably be considered essential. Someone who was solely into werewolves (therianthropy), or someone who was solely into real, non-anthropomorphic cats (like the guy in the hotel advert currently being discussed on RD/E) would probably not regard themselves as part of the "furry fandom" in its narrow sense. See Furry fandom#Furry lifestylers. Tevildo (talk) 00:55, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

This is a really weird subject I've had some experience with. Basically, "furries" describes a wide swath of people who enjoy the subject of "funny animals," or anthropomorphs. That can vary from someone who collects comics, to artists & writers, to folks who enjoy wearing mascot suits ("fursuits"), and those who do role-playing (online or offline).

Therianthropes, on the other hand, are a group of folks who believe they were born into the wrong body. It's akin to transgenderism, only therians believe their souls were meant for an animal body, not human. Some only go that far with it, "feeling the animal" as part of their personality; others feel they can mentally "shift" into thinking like the animal. They don't believe they can physically shapeshift, and treat it more like a spiritual/religious belief. Also most don't like to be called furries. There's some overlap (ie. a few furries are therians), but that's not the general case. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 22:08, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

negative net worth

what percent of the united states population has a net worth of exactly $0 or less? 91.120.48.242 (talk) 14:02, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Well, the net worth of Daniel James Shellabarger is $0. US population is 315,510,000. So calculate the percentage. --PlanetEditor (talk) 14:40, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

PlanetEditor - not sure how that answers the OP's question. Two points:

(a) Just because someone does not use money does not mean they have a net worth of $0 - if they have belongings (clothes, bedroll, phone, laptop etc.) these will have some value, so their net worth is probably a small but positive number.

(b) The question says "$0 or less" - you seem to be ignoring the "or less" part. Gandalf61 (talk) 15:15, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

This article says that 24.8% of US households had negative net worth in 2009. This article says that the 2011 figure was "about one in five". Googling "negative net worth usa" will give you many more sources of statistics. Gandalf61 (talk) 15:39, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Weren't you asking and answering this very question earlier this month? You seem to have said that you found the answer that you were looking for (and that it's "25%"). If that's not what you're looking for here, can you please clarify what the difference is between this question and your previous one? — Lomn 15:41, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I was quite confident in my beleif but met opposition here. I became unsure. I asked again now because I wanted a fresh answer without any suggestion from me. I have nothing to add. 15:44, 18 March 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.221.144.64 (talk)

I don't see that you met opposition to the idea the figure was about something in the range 15-30%. The opposition was to your idea that failing to take in to account the negative net worth would significantly skew whatever graph you were referring to, as well as general opposition to answering your question considering your manner of asking and responding. Nil Einne (talk) 12:08, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

It would be editorializing so I won't really go on about it, but for context: I just saw this "shocking" [reddit story http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/1aib5k/6_walmart_heirs_worth_same_as_bottom_41_of_us/] that says "6 Walmart Heirs Worth Same as Bottom 41% of US". By that account I have bothered not to cash a "winning scratch-off ticket worth same as bottom 24.9% of Americans". Since I don't need to go through all that trouble for 50 cents in change. 91.120.48.242 (talk) 16:16, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Dick Schaap in the Dutch press

Our archives holds a copy of a 1996 article from a Dutch newspaper, De Opmaat, about a Dutch-Jewish immigrant to Israel and his wartime and postwar exploits. That link is a .pdf file of the article; at the bottom of page 5 is a photo of "journalist Dick Schaap." Is there a contemporary Dutch journalist by that name? How might I determine whether this is this Dick Schaap? -- Deborahjay (talk) 14:29, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

It's not this Dick Schaap, it's the Dick Schaap whose bibliography is here. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 14:37, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I think you're looking for this Dick Schaap (see the section on Opmaat & Checkpoint at the bottom of that page, and compare the picture on this page with the one in your article). - Cucumber Mike (talk) 14:39, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, indeed! The above .pdf file has his article on Louis van Coevorden, though evidently our records got the date wrong. Since I neither read nor write Dutch, I'll settle at this point for adding the identifying info you've provided to the Talk:Dick Schaap page here on the English-language WP for dab's sake. Thanks! -- Deborahjay (talk) 17:54, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Looking for a poem

I read a poem about 35 years ago that I have been unable to find again. A portion of it goes like this: "If I should ever lose the love of men and choose to walk again my own fey, lonely way do not grieve love but say that once on a summer day you kissed me in a sunlit meadow and in that sunlit meadow closed my eyes." That's close to how it went. For some reason the name Hervoyel or Hervogel wants to come to mind. Does anyone recognize this? 18:05, 18 March 2013 (UTC)Jessebost7711 (talk)

It appears in the fantasy novel The Silver Sun, by Nancy Springer [13]. Hervoyel appears to be one of the characters in the fantasy-world of the novel (referred to as Hal), so I assume Springer wrote it herself. The novel was originally published in 1977 under the title The Book of Suns. The title was changed in 1980. Paul B (talk) 18:31, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Interesting how the OP knows the poem by heart from 35 years ago, but not how to use google. μηδείς (talk) 00:42, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

S/he did get it slightly wrong. In fact it doesn't come up in very simple google searches. Paul B (talk) 11:37, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I too found that oddly intriguing 68.36.148.100 (talk) 01:20, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Let's not discourage folk from asking questions here please. The question was asked and the answer was found, together with some interesting context. Mission accomplished. Alansplodge (talk) 13:55, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Pope Francis' name choice

Hello.

I am reading and hearing conflicting accounts of the origin of Pope Francis' name choice. I have heard it honors Francis of Assisi and Francis Xavier--the founder of the Jesuits. Which is it? I looked in the Wikipedia article for a citation or reference but found none.

Any help you could provide would be appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.255.41.129 (talk) 18:33, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities#Benedict_and_Francis on this page. Paul B (talk) 18:37, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) This question was asked and answered here a couple of days ago. The name was a direct reference to Francis Assisi, not Francis Xavier. This article explains it well. --Jayron32 18:38, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Given Francis is a Jesuit, it would be interesting to see what sort of notable comment there is on Francis Xavier. (M y own understanding is that Francis of Assisi is the official and the Pope's own inspiration. I remember reading as recently as JPII's papacy that there would never be a Jesuit pope. μηδείς (talk) 01:27, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

But there now has been, rendering worthless any opinions and prognostications to the contrary. There's plenty of commentary to the effect that he "must have had" Xavier in mind, being a Jesuit; but the fact remains that he attributed his name to Assisi and only Assisi. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 01:48, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I am quite aware of that, I have read the primary and secondary sources that say his name is attributed to Assisi, rather than Xavier. I listened to his annuntio in Latin and his statements in Latin and Italian, and read the Vatican statements. It is still of interest to read what others have said about the possibility he had the Jesuit in mind. Mine is not a claim, but an inquiry. μηδείς (talk) 01:54, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Historical novels by nationality

Is there a website that shows the name of historical fiction novel writers by nationality and their well known work? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.31.18.237 (talk) 18:55, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Not exactly what you are looking for, but Historical fiction and Historical novel both have lists of authors. The external links section at the bottoms of these articles would be a good place to start your search.--Wikimedes (talk) 01:26, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Trying to find The Name of an Older French Company , Who specialise in Verification of major artworks involving great Masters etc , but also deal in precious metals etc as a notable older french company

RE : I have been trying to remember the exact name of this French Company ,who are also Makers of Quite well regarded items of Jewelry etc ,I don`t know if their the only Company in France who consider scientific verification and analysis of Artworks / but would be extensively notable for their thoroughness & records & research carried out , Perhaps the only verification Authority or within those standards . They have a dual or hyphenated Name as I recall , a massive Security Wall at Their front Gate , and a Nice courtyard behind the gate , before you even see the front door . — Preceding unsigned comment added by J N G HETHERINGTON (talk • contribs) 19:07, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Old Liberian stamps

First off — I'm not asking for in-depth research; it's purely a matter of searching different editions of the Scott catalogue.

I need help with some Liberian stamps whose Scott numbers may have been changed: I'm processing a stamp collection that was donated to my employer, and I've encountered some stamps in glassine envelopes that are labelled as being in the group of Scott numbers from #237 to #247; one stamp also has the same number pencilled on its back as on its envelope. I'm a longtime stamp collector, so I'm familiar with Scott; my own copy of the 2003 Scott catalogues shows no numbers between Liberia Scott #236 and #248 and no design A105, and the same situation is true of the 1993 catalogues. Can someone check an older catalogue, perhaps from several decades ago, and see if there were stamps with these numbers and design number? The stamps in question are currently numbered C3A-C3F (triangles with a "Waco plane"; they're issued in the same time period as #236 and #248), so I'm wondering if those six and four others were originally misclassified as regular postage, only to be moved later. I don't know when the collection was assembled or when the envelopes were labelled; most of the other envelopes have the correct Scott numbers for the stamps that they contain. Nyttend (talk) 23:51, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

March 19

I have a question on how to get a hold of someone

I need to ask a question to someone on Wikidoc. About one of her pages. Her name Swillams. She does not have a talk page. And I cant edit on wikidoc. Because i dont have a wikidoc account. I cant create a wikidoc account do to. I am not college stundent in med school. You to be a doctor or student to edit on wikidoc. So how do I contact her for a question. Please help me — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.174.186.167 (talk) 01:01, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Just in case you don't know, wikidoc has no relationship with wikipedia. Anyway, Swilliams is a him, not a her. Here is the best suggestion I can give you. This page shows his contributions on wikidoc, and if you hunt through it, you will see an email address. I suggest you try it. I don't know if it will work, but it's the best I can do. Looie496 (talk) 03:53, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

different photos of Eli Yishai

Is there a website that shows different photos of Eli Yishai, chairman of Shas, meaning young and old, past to present? I am amazed that he can see without glasses today.--Donmust90 (talk) 02:28, 19 March 2013 (UTC)Donmust90

Eli Yishai and Shas, for convenience. Nyttend (talk) 02:32, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

You could just try google images. Lots of 50 year olds don't need glasses. Paul B (talk) 13:21, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

...or wear contact lenses or have had corrective surgery, neither of which is prohibited by Jewish law. The frequent caricatures of Eli Yishai in the mainstream Israeli press depict him without eyeglasses. -- Deborahjay (talk) 13:38, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Atonement - a Jewish/Christian concept?

Is atonement a Jewish and Christian concept? There is no atonement in Islam even though Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are based on the same biblical family? It is said that that Islam is the descendant of Ishmael, Judaism the descendant of Isaac, and Christianity the descendant of Jesus (the second Adam), or is Islam the descendant of Isaac and Judaism the descendant of Ishmael and Christianity still the descendant of Jesus? Is "at-one-ment" a real etymology, and if so, how did this etymology become "atonement"? In other words, how did "being at one with God" come to mean "receiving God's grace in the name of Jesus Christ"? What were some of the metaphors did theologians use to illustrate atonement? 75.185.79.52 (talk) 03:02, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

On etymology, the OED says "In use a verbal n. < atone n., but apparently of prior formation, due to the earlier n. onement and the phrase ‘to be atone’ or ‘at onement.’ " And the entry for "atone" says "Etymology: < at one". I've heard the term used in Buddhist contexts, for what it's worth. Pfly (talk) 03:32, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

If Islam doesn't believe in the Fall of Man (the story of Adam and Eve and their expulsion from the Garden of Eden), then it has no need for atonement. Atonement is meant to return mankind to the state of grace that existed before the Fall. Judaism holds that adherence to a set of laws will produce this atonement. Christianity holds that for as in Adam all sinned, through Christ are all men set free. See Hebrews 10 for a fuller exposition of this. --TammyMoet (talk) 11:04, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Islam does believe in the Fall of Adam and Eve and their expulsion from paradise, it's in the Quran:

"Then Satan whispered to him; he said, 'O Adam, shall I direct you to the tree of eternity and possession that will not deteriorate?' And Adam and his wife ate of it, and their private parts became apparent to them, and they began to fasten over themselves from the leaves of Paradise. And Adam disobeyed his Lord and erred. Then his Lord chose him and turned to him in forgiveness and guided [him]. [Allah] said, 'Descend from Paradise - all, [your descendants] being enemies to one another. And if there should come to you guidance from Me - then whoever follows My guidance will neither go astray [in the world] nor suffer [in the Hereafter].' " (Quran 20:120-123, Sahih International translation)

They do however interpret the story differently, and the solution from an Islamic perspective is simply Allah guiding the believers and forgiving their sins as he sees fit. I'm no expert on this though, maybe some knowledgeable Muslim can elaborate on this. - Lindert (talk) 11:31, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Jews have one day of atonement, Muslims 30, and Christians 40, which might tell us something. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:55, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm... It might tell us that Christians have more fun, and so have more to atone for. Blueboar (talk) 14:14, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

According to our article Sawm, one of the purposes for Muslims of fasting, as during Ramadan, is atonement. Marco polo (talk) 15:14, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I was watching a documentary on BBC Four last night about eating insects. There was an interview with a Thai man who made a lucrative living from collecting weaver ant pupae, which are a delicacy in Thailand. To celebrate start of the ant collecting season, his family have a lavish meal of ant's egg stew, but take some to the local Buddhist monastery for the monks, to atone for the sin of destroying the ants' nests. Alansplodge (talk) 22:43, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Does that call for adding a Buddhist version of atonement on Wikipedia? So far, the term appears to be associated to Abrahamic religions, not Dharmic religions. 75.185.79.52 (talk) 23:45, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

You would need to find a better source than a bloke on a TV documentary, even if it was on BBC Four. Alansplodge (talk) 11:53, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

The Hebrew term for "atonement" is kappara, hence "Yom Kippur", ie day [of] atonement. As Judaism is such an ancient religion and the concept of atonement is so intangible, it would be very hard to find conclusive proof of it existing in the pre-Abrahamic world. The precise meaning of kappara is quite difficult to unpick, as it is complex - see ([14]) for a good starter read. Btw atonement doesn't seem to have much to do with receiving God's grace. It's an internal human process. The forgiveness one may or may not receive for having done atonement is more what you're interested in. --Dweller (talk) 14:55, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

similarities between Jews and Muslims

Jews and Muslims are known for their memorization of their holy books, and having a term to refer anything that is permissible for them to eat like Kashrut and Halaal. Any similarities between these two religions?--Donmust90 (talk) 14:58, 19 March 2013 (UTC)Donmust90

Many similarities, as they are both Abrahamic religions. Gandalf61 (talk) 15:04, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Islam recognizes major Jewish prophets as early prophets of Islam. See also Islamic-Jewish relations. Marco polo (talk) 15:06, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

And of course male circumcision. Alansplodge (talk) 22:33, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

See also People of the Book. --Jayron32 02:30, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

lunar calendar. Gzuckier (talk) 06:30, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

However, Judaism actually has a "lunisolar" calendar, which approximates the length of the solar year with an error of less than one day in every 200 years, while Islam has a pure lunar calendar which approximates the length of the solar year with an error of over 11 days every single year. The Hebrew calendar is actually more than 2,000 times more accurate than the Islamic calendar where the Sun is concerned! AnonMoos (talk) 16:52, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Like Christianity, Islam recognises the Hebrew Bible, albeit as superseded. The religions have some superficial similarities when it comes to having daily routine demands of prayer (3 times for Jews, five for Muslims) facing in a specific direction (the complicated Mizrach and Mecca respectively), the fact that both legislate in areas that many non-Jews/Muslims would perceive as lying outside of "religious" law and many, many other areas, in no small part, as others have said, because of the common origins. --Dweller (talk) 14:39, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

If you're going strictly by written texts, then only Judaism and Christianity have anything meaningful in common, since there are no sacred texts held in common between Judaism and Islam, or between Christianity and Islam, and the traditional Muslim attitude has been that if anything in Jewish or Christian scriptures contradicts anything in the Qur'an, that ipso facto means that they are by definition "corrupted". If you're going by pure theology, then both Jewish and Muslim theologians consider the doctrine of the Trinity and the deification of Jesus to be an abomination (however, the Qur'an seems to accuse the Jews of engaging in a similar deification of Ezra, which is of course nonsense)... AnonMoos (talk) 16:58, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

The words for "Hello" (Salaam, shalom) and "lake" (bir, beer) are basically the same. Seems like "Tomato" versus "Tomahto" to populations far removed from the controversies of the Middle East. Edison (talk) 03:53, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

That's not really an islam-judaism connection. That's an Arabic language-Hebrew language connection. They are closely related languages (see Semitic languages). There are, of course, Jews that don't speak Hebrew and Muslims that don't speak Arabic, at least in their daily activities. --Jayron32 05:03, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

The Hebrew and Arabic languages are definitely related, and share a number of structural and etymological similarities, but whether they're "closely" related depends on your definition of "close". They probably haven't been very mutually comprehensible for well over 3,000 years (at least since changes such as the Canaanite shift, which is responsible for the "o" vowel in "Shalom", took place). It's still easier for an Arabic speaker to learn Hebrew than it would be to learn a non-central Semitic language (the reverse is a little less true), but it definitely takes significant study and learning... AnonMoos (talk) 09:41, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

• Both Jews and Muslims have a religion. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 09:46, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

They are also similar in that they both have one or more countries with at least a strong religious foundation historically if not in present day. These countries are still undergoing the process of reading through modern civilization, which is understandably a slow process (it took humanity several thousand years) but obviously of benefit to them and everyone (just as it's better to spend 0.000% of your attention while asleep on making sure a lion is not about to attack you...duh). On a personal note, I very much look forward to when ALL of these countries - including Israel as well as Arab countries - enjoy modern civilization, the rule of philosophy, and so forth. One of the saddest occurrences is that in some sense modern philosophy has been put aside due to having deal with savagery (regardless of source - I am not pointing fingers nor am I interested). All of these countries are highly literate, will enjoy the fruits of modern civilization just as much as anyone. They have this in common. However, they have to go through it all and read and understand/internalize it. So, I would say this is something they very much have in common: they will be a much better place in the future than they are now. 91.120.48.242 (talk) 14:24, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Not sure what these generalized pontifications are leading to. It wasn't all that long ago in historical terms that parts of Europe were devastated by religious wars. And most of the founders of Zionism and early leaders of Israel were highly-Europeanized individuals who were politically "left-wing" in some manner (usually socialists). If Israel has diverged from Europe recently it's mainly because of 1) militarization forced by threat of extinction and 2) the rising political prominence of Sephardi/Mizrahi Jews whose families had spent many years in close proximity to Muslims or Arabs (the Sephardi/Mizrahi Jews were crucial in throwing the Europeanized socialists out of the government in the 1977 election). AnonMoos (talk) 14:53, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

yeah I'm pretty surprised at the way things have turned out for the very reason you cite! (but you also cite two explanations). still, it answers the OP's question to some extent. 91.120.48.242 (talk) 15:29, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Cyprus financial crisis

The proposal to take a portion of bank depositors money in order to pay off the bank's bad investments seems like a very bad idea, causing runs on the banks and lack of confidence in banks in other nations with similar problems. However, this appears to be about the only way to get the money needed to keep the banks from failing.

I wonder if, in order to alleviate the pain, and thus minimize the panic, they've considered this option:

• Declare these to be loans, not forfeitures. That is, promise to give the money back at some future date (perhaps quite far out), with some rate of interest. Or would this liability be just as bad as the current debts ?

StuRat (talk) 15:21, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

collapse opinions offered without a single reference or link
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
That would transform short-term liabilities into long-term ones, which might make the banks (temporarily) somewhat stronger but would not repair their balance sheets in the way that confiscating funds to turn liabilities into assets would. Banks would be solvent but zombies without enough assets to provide credit to the real economy, which would contract sharply as a result, likely leading to a worsening of balance sheets and the renewed prospect of bank failure. Also, I'm not sure that an indefinite forced loan would really be perceived by depositors much differently than an expropriation, such that this measure probably wouldn't prevent bank runs and a loss of confidence. What I don't fully understand is why governments, since the ongoing financial crisis began in 2008, have prioritized saving banks over saving their real economies. To me, the clear solution is to let the banks fail, let the overpaid CEOs and other CxOs lose their obscenely overpaid jobs, let the rich investors in the banks lose their riches, and insure depositors worth less than about €100,000, if necessary by printing the money. The argument that this would be inflationary ignores that 1) the developed world's production is currently well below capacity, making inflation hard to achieve, and 2) more compellingly, inflation can only occur when the money supply is expanding, but the writing off of the assets of high-net-worth depositors would in fact reduce the money supply. Meanwhile, the government could take over the remnants of the banks or start new banks and then privatize them. These banks would be chartered to increase the money supply (up to a safe point relative to the size of the economy) by issuing loans to creditworthy individuals and businesses. Governments could print money to invest in improvements to the human and physical infrastructure aimed at increasing the economy's productivity (this money creation likewise justified by the drop in the money supply). Writing off malinvested financial wealth while creating money that goes to salaries and the creation of productive infrastructure would kick-start the real economy. The only reason for not pursuing a course something like this is that it would sharply disadvantage the currently wealthy relative to the currently not wealthy. Governments seem to prefer safeguarding the wealthy to promoting the welfare of the rest. Marco polo (talk) 19:58, 19 March 2013 (UTC) The situation in Cyprus is a bit different, though, as many of the wealthy depositors are foreign, in particular Russians trying to hide their assets from their own government. So, the people in Cyprus are probably fine with seizing those assets, but not their own. I'm not quite sure who the actual owners of the banks are, though. StuRat (talk) 20:34, 19 March 2013 (UTC) Is it OK to steal from the Russian, since they are just laundering money? If someone knows that the money is illegal, they shouldn't just take 10% away, but the whole of it. That's a further diplomatic blunder of this plan. I am not surprised it has so many detractors. OsmanRF34 (talk) 20:42, 19 March 2013 (UTC) They could respect the minimum limit of 100,000 €, which was the guaranteed deposit, and default 15% on deposits above that. The initial plan was to default only 10% on deposits above 100,000 €. The European financial ministers (the Euro Group) could at least admit their own share of fault. Simply proposing this idea was a terrible mistake, horribly irresponsible, and a huge damage for Cyprus and for other European countries. The Germans could have thought before backing this plan that Cyprus is ethnically Greece, and that this plan heats their disturbed relationships to a higher degree with the Greek. They could default on the stockholders, which should be aware of the risks. They could default on the German lenders (which is pretty unpopular among Germans, for obvious reasons).OsmanRF34 (talk) 20:39, 19 March 2013 (UTC) Note that according to various sources, e.g. [15] the Cypriot government or president did not want to allow a rate above 10% for the deposits over €100k for fear of losing their reputation and business as an offshore financial centre. Regardless of whether or not that was a good idea (which it seems to me is beside the point of this question) or the plan itself was, any of the above responses which assume it's acceptable outcome to those involved besides the Russians seem to be missing the point. Nil Einne (talk) 22:05, 19 March 2013 (UTC) @Nil Einne: no one above really assumes that the problem would just affect the Russian. I assume that others (not here on the RD) were taking that into account, or, at least passing this message to their respective potential electoral base. OsmanRF34 (talk) 22:21, 19 March 2013 (UTC) I think you're missing my point. My point is that some of the above responses appear to be assuming that no one in Cyprus cares about the Russians losing their money. Actually the evidence suggests the Cypriot president and/or government had no desire to lose their reputation and business as an offshore financial centre including among the Russians whatever the questionable nature of their businesses and whatever the majority Cypriot people may think of it. So not it was not just the Russians who didn't want the Russians (and others) losing too much of their money, but the Cypriot goverment which was a key reason why anything about 10% was rejected. It also follows that allowing the banks to collapse, which would seem to destroy their reputation even more is not an acceptable outcome. Just to reaffirm, regardless of the wisdom of such a move (like the long term prospects of such a business compared to other options), which is besides the point of the original question, the evidence as I've said several times now suggests the Cypriot government/president had no desire to lose their reputation and business as an offshore financial centre. I never said anything about people assuming 'the problem would just affect the Russian'. Nil Einne (talk) 22:28, 19 March 2013 (UTC) Nope, I don't assume that the Cyprian are OK with this. But you seem to think that the whole idea came from the Cypriot part. It came not from them. It was imposed by the Euro Group. Since the outcry from the Cypriot people, including others, was too high, the government backed off. Additionally, no mea culpa could be heard from the Euro Group yet, but it's their fault. I still assume that some players in this mess, not Cyprian, indeed didn't find it too bad if Russians lost their money, which was claimed to be from dubious sources anyway. Angela Merkel has an election soon, and that would be easier for her to screw some Russian gangster than some fellow German housewife. OsmanRF34 (talk) 22:48, 19 March 2013 (UTC) I am not deleting any of this, but please note we are not a forum, and not a single respondent has offered a source or link. (BTW, I think this is huge, but let's please have some frigging sources, people.) μηδείς (talk) 00:59, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Try this link: [16]. Plasmic Physics (talk) 01:24, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Note: Nil Einne DID offer a link to a reuters article. (And as my personal POV, (do indulge me) siezing depositors' savings is warped and stupid. Which loony thought up that idea?). Can I ask a question myself? Wouldn't a Proceeds of Crime Act 2002-style law to freeze and sieze the Russian gangsters' money - ALL of it, wherever proven (through a civil recovery process for unexplained wealth, as the UK and other jurisdictions have) be a far more palatable solution for all concerned? Or would the Russian gangsters (or their government) kick up a diplomatic fuss over Cyprus siezing what the Russians view as "their" money?

Alternatively, the Cypriot tax authorities could likely recoup large sums simply by chasing the large depositors and asking "have you paid income tax on this money"? Or have these options already been exhausted? 203.45.183.3 (talk) 07:39, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Isn't it a bit idiotic to assume all rich Russians who want to avoid tax are gangsters? I mean most rich Brits use offshore banking to avoid tax and few people accuse them of being mafia? Someone has been seriously brainwashed. --Ghirla^-трёп- 08:51, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

The implication from news articles about the wealth seizure proposal is that only bank deposits would be taken. Was the proposal strictly limited to checking and savings? What about certificates of deposit? What about a bundle of cash in a safety deposit box? Were brokerage accounts to be exempt, including moneymarket accounts with associated debit cards and check writing features? I wonder why there would be very much of anyone's wealth in basically non-interest paying savings accounts (in the US only a small fraction of a percent interest is currently paid). . Is it expected that the average Cypriot will leave his money in a bank when withdrawals are again allowed, once seizure of it has been proposed by the international financial types who control the needed bailout, since they might find ways to ratchet up pressure on the Cypriot government. Once confiscation of savings has been blessed by the authorities as a permissible way for a government to bail itself out, runs on banks would seem likely when rumors are spread of possible such seizures in other countries. The trick is to figure out what savings channels are likely to be exempt. Edison (talk) 18:52, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Its really just an easy way for the EU to force Russia's hand in helping deal with the bailout. They have skin in the game: they shoud be part of the solution.165.212.189.187 (talk) 19:59, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Without getting in to the ethics/wisdom/alternatives etc which I again emphasise are largely irrelevant to the question, note that as per our article 2012–2013 Cypriot financial crisis and most sources discussing the crisis, one of the reasons for the current problems in Cyprus and why they need a bailout is because the banks are having great problems at least partially due to their exposure to the Greek financial crisis and the government needs to support them (this is of course somewhat of a 2 way street). Even opinions opposed to the move mention this e.g. [17]. The government could just let the banks collapse and then try and honour their deposit insurance but as I showed earlier with a reference (you can easily find more which say the same thing but I didn't see the need), the Cypriot government is reluctant to do that at least partially because they want to keep their reputation and business as an offshore financial centre. Also I don't particularly get the relevance of the interest situation in the US to Cyprus. The interest from deposits in Cyprus banks can be up to 13% according to some calculations [18] with an average evidently of 4.45% for deposits less than 2 years [19], again the high interest rates are usually discussed in sources talking about the situation, e.g. [20] as they are one of the reasons why there is so much foreign money in them. Of course other countries without problems to the extent of Cyprus but with different financial situations also have significantly higher interest then what you're quoting for the US, e.g. Australia, NZ, Malaysia. Nil Einne (talk) 22:38, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Meroe

Hello,

in Meroe, did the kings or queens have more power?

Greetings HeliosX (talk) 16:29, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

We really don't know. The texts that survive from that civilization are so few that it hasn't been possible to decipher its language. So we don't have any internal sources, aside from the monumental art, which shows both male and female rulers as powerful. Neither this art nor the external sources, mainly in Greek, clearly indicate which of these rulers were more powerful. Marco polo (talk) 20:21, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Is there a film that depicts a Groundhog Day-style time-loop with a child protagonist?

So far, I haven't found such a film. I would guess that I would break into untapped literary territory by writing a novel about a child stuck in a time-loop, and if lucky enough, it could be adapted into film.

Otherwise, if there is such a film out there, what film most closely parallels Groundhog Day that involves a child protagonist? Thank you. --70.179.161.230 (talk) 19:52, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

According to TV Tropes, Nickelodeon in the US made such a film, called Last Day of Summer. Check the TV tropes page for more examples - I didn't follow every lead. NB, that shouldn't discourage you from writing the story you'd like to! The way you execute it will be unique to you (and could easily improve on the film). 184.147.116.201 (talk) 20:21, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

And on the top of that: don't be afraid to re-use any trope. As the TV Tropes~site (linked above) shows, tropes keep appearing and re-appearing, are combined and re-combined. Indeed, in most cases, there is nothing new under the sun in the realm of story-telling, it's just a different performance. OsmanRF34 (talk)

Absolutely. There's an article in today's Guardian on why Hollywood keeps making the same film. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 20:55, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

That article isn't about why Hollywood keeps making the same film. Instead, it's about how, now-and-then, Hollywood releases two similar films at the same time. But the lesson is the same: don't worry too much about whether something similar has been done before. Just try to execute your idea as best you can. Even Groundhog Day was not the only time-loop film released in 1993: there was also 12:01. The writers of 12:01 believed that Groundhog Day was a ripoff of their film, so there's also a caveat to the lesson: avoid making your version of a tale so similar to another that lawyers get involved. —Kevin Myers 00:21, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

March 20

Bomb shelters in France

I've already asked this question on the Science ref desk, but they referred me here. The question is: What types of structures (other than the Paris Metro) were used as bomb shelters in occupied France during World War 2? 24.23.196.85 (talk) 06:21, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm not having much luck finding anything on the internet at the moment - I've posted a question on the Language Desk that might help with Google search terms in French. I suspect that, like the UK, there was an expectation in 1939 that there would be catastrophic bombing of civilian centres from the outset, so some thought would have been given to public air raid shelters during the months before and after war was declared. In Britain and Germany, the cellars or basements in people's own houses were the main form of shelter, and I imagine that the French fondness for large apartment buildings in towns would have meant that most people would have found shelter with their neighbours au sous-sol in their own immeuble d'appartements. Alansplodge (talk) 11:49, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

The common word (for "sous-sol" was "les caves" (cellars) and more precisely "les caves-abris" and in general "les abris antiaériens (de la défense passive)". — AldoSyrt (talk) 13:16, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

The search terms "abri anti-bombe France seconde guerre mondiale" return some good results [21], including links to purpose-built structures now turned into museums or memorials. --Xuxl (talk) 12:59, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

"In Britain and Germany, the cellars or basements in people's own houses were the main form of shelter" - really? Our article Air-raid shelter says that 3.6 million Anderson shelters (capable of accommodating six people each), and 600,000 Morrison shelters were installed in the UK, in addition to the communal street shelters and the use of existing tunnels and other structures. The article specifically makes the point that the lack of cellars in UK houses was an obstacle to civil defence planning. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 14:01, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

It was probably a sweeping statement, but a very substantial number would have sheltered in their own cellars. My grandparents certainly sheltered in the cellar of their Victorian terraced house in London. I've just been reading A Woman in Berlin which tells the story of a woman who lives in an apartment block in Berlin. All the residents abandoned their flats and took shelter in the basement of their building for several weeks while the city fell to the Russians. Stories were passed around about the goings-on in basements of surrounding buildings. Alansplodge (talk) 21:13, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

The French government declared Paris an open city (French: ville ouverte, German: offene Stadt) in 1940 when they couldn't defend it. Bomb shelters were not required in Paris proper but there were industrial targets in the suburbs of Paris requiring shelters in the suburbs.
Sleigh (talk) 19:02, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

So how do you explain the following passage from Helene Deschamps Adams's autobiography Spyglass: "With no apparent warning, sirens began to howl. The Allies were getting bold these days, bombing even in daylight. The cafe emptied rapidly, and I rushed to the nearest shelter, the Jasmin metro station. A wide black arrow on the wall indicated the entrance to the air-raid shelter, which was on the train tracks. The ramp going down was only dimly lit, and I moved cautiously. Others, more accustomed to this route of safety, rushed by me." If what you said was true, then how could this have happened at all? 24.23.196.85 (talk) 00:21, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

If you can read French, some pieces of information here — AldoSyrt (talk) 20:17, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

More info about pre-war civil defence preparations in Civil Defence as a Harbinger of War in France and Britain during the Interwar Period. Alansplodge (talk) 21:17, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

In the more hilly wine regions, Frenchmen often hid in wine caves. Blueboar (talk) 02:22, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, everyone! Perhaps I should have been more specific and said right away that I'm most interested in public bomb shelters in urban areas of occupied France from 1940-1944. Am I right in concluding from the info provided here that in large cities other than Paris (such as Lille, Rouen, Calais, etc.), these were usually in basements of large apartment buildings? 24.23.196.85 (talk) 05:29, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

The first place I thought of was the Catacombs of Paris (Mines of Paris). It's not actually mentioned in the article or the external links on the page but Google does give some results including this. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 06:19, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

The Nazis controlling occupied France weren't so assiduous about air raid protection as were the British authorities during and after the Blitz. I dont think they had ARP wardens for example and it would be interesting to know what kind of air raid warnng systems they had. But when there were air raids the population ran for shelter, the cellar or the Metro, the catacombs, or just under the table. Itsmejudith (talk) 07:26, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

In the same way that gas masks were not required even though everybody carried a gas mask with them. Mustard gas was never used in Word War II.
Sleigh (talk) 07:46, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Nantes was bombed numerous times, but there were no bomb shelters, and no Metro. People either hid in cellars, or they just fled the city entirely. We don't have an English article about this, but there is one on the French Wikipedia (which unfortunately doesn't mention anything about shelters). Adam Bishop (talk) 10:35, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

colors connected to World War II

I'm trying to find some paints. They should be colors used on the American home front during World War II. Olive drab was used on land vehicles. Battleship gray was used on oceancrossing vessels. What other colors were used at the time?142.255.103.121 (talk) 07:07, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Patriotism would be at a high point, so red, white, and blue would abound. StuRat (talk) 07:34, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

World War II: The American Home Front in Color has a series of photographs that might be helpful. As you say, olive drab was much in evidence, but a quick look through also shows a training aircraft in bright yellow. There is a website called Simmers Paint Shops that is full of technical details about US aircraft paint. A Google Image search for "US civil defence posters" gives a lot of interesting results, although there's a lot of post-war stuff too. You might also try searches for "US Home Front" or "US war bond posters". Good hunting! Alansplodge (talk) 11:30, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

I think "olive drab" and "battleship gray" don't actually match anything commonly referred to as the "US home front", which is civilian rather than military. The colors listed describe military equipment, but not civilian stuff outside of a combat zone (see, for example, the photo of a parking lot in the first slideshow linked by Alansplodge). Also linked from there is this Library of Congress collection of color photos from the 1930s and 1940s. Also, you mention "trying to find some paints" -- are you looking just for representative colors, or specifically for paints in those colors? If for actual paint, what sort of paint are you looking for? — Lomn 14:34, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

The paint colors seen on the WW2 US home front would have been largely of pre-war activity, since most things do not need constant repainting. Popular Science, March 1942 recommended 2 coats of paint on the house exterior every 4 years, but the article was doubtless edited and slotted for publication before the US entered the war. It has no mention of what colors are popular. Paint was made largely of chemicals (solvents and pigments such as titanium) of strategic importance, but apparently paint was not strictly rationed.They worried more about the steel in the cans than the petroleum in the paint. In 1943, only bronze and aluminum paint were scarce: [22]. By 1945 there was "practically no paint for houses" because of a shortage of lead: In [http://books.google.com/books?id=3CEDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA171&dq=paint&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SP1JUeOODcSxyQG-roBo&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=paint&f=false July 1944 they said good paint was still procurable. An Oct 1945 article discussed new pigments and formulations developed by war research, and said the country needed a "facelift" after wartime neglect. My public library has back issues of many magazine from the WW2 period, but I do not see in Google Book magazines such as Better Home and Gardens which had color sections showing then-trendy color choices for homes. A trip to a good-sized library might help more than what can be found online. Edison (talk) 18:38, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

As I was watching the closing credits of My Dog Skip (film), I saw Sherwin Williams mentioned in them. The company was one of a few being acknowledged for their assistance and/or cooperation with the film's production. That's what prompted me to ask about colors used during WWII.142.255.103.121 (talk) 06:10, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Companies paying unsustainable dividends

Recently an article in the financial media called my attention to this fact: Many companies pay dividends so high that they actually have a negative retained earnings as a result. Sometimes, they are simply borrowing money (accumulating debt) to pay out as dividends.

1. Wherein lies the logic of such behaviour? Isn't it a clear form of self-cannibalization? Are they simply gambling that earnings will go up to cover the shortfall, or is there more to it? What's the endgame, so to speak?

2. In the latter case (accumulating debt whilst paying dividends), who would be stupid enough to lend money to a company for such a blatantly unsustainable and unprofitable purpose? 203.45.183.3 (talk) 07:54, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

1) Might just be short-termed thinking, possibly combined with a conflict of interest. For example, many executives have their compensation tied to the stock price. Therefore, if you plan to leave the company in the next few years, this would be a good way to maximize your pay before you go, by puffing up the stock price by paying large dividends.

2) The banks may not know. For example, if the company had X dollars budgeted for building widgets, they could instead pay that out as dividends, while borrowing X dollars from banks, supposedly so they can use it to build and sell widgets. StuRat (talk) 08:49, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Can you give an example of such a company? It is quite common to pay out dividends that are larger than your profits (or even to pay them when making losses), but only in the short-term. Dividend policies are often intended to smooth out payments rather than leave investors exposed to fluctuting profits. That gives investors more confidence in the stock, so increases the stock price. Paying out dividends larger than your profits over a long enough period to end up with negative retained earnings would be quite extreme (most companies don't start paying dividends at all until retained earnings are fairly large, so even if they are making big losses and paying big dividends, it would take a few years to go negative). --Tango (talk) 12:41, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Perception of physical attractiveness

Is physical attractiveness subjective or objective? Does objective beauty exist? If so, why do different people from different cultures perceive beauty in different ways? For example, Kayan women artificially make their neck long and to Kayan men, this long neck serve as a sexual attractant. I don't think a New York City guy will find a Kayan woman sexually attractive. Foot binding was prevalent in Chinese culture and Chinese men considered the tiny narrow feet of women to be beautiful. But I don';t think a westerner at that time would have found those feet beautiful. According to this study, women from two different geographical regions, Britain and Malaysia, and from rural and urban areas, perceive male physical attractiveness in different ways. Is there really anything called objective human physical attractiveness? Or the concept of physical attractiveness is shaped by culture, a result of social conditioning? --PlanetEditor (talk) 15:03, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Physical attractiveness is an uncalculable mixture of universal principles and cultural variability. Wikipedia has an article titled Physical attractiveness. There are some "universal" principles of attractiveness, which hold (statistically, though not in every single individual ever born, but rather on average across many cultures). These include certain things like symmetry of facial features, and some proportional relationships. However, there are also deep cultural distinctions between other measures of beauty and attractiveness. So the answer to your question is both yes and no: There are some "objective" standards of beauty in the sense that there are some principles that seem to hold across all cultural groups (though, again, allowing for some individual variation on the person-by-person level), while there are also many measures of beauty which vary greatly between cultures. --Jayron32 15:12, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Even in modern Western cultures, there have been notable changing trends and fads -- in the 1920's, small-breastedness was favored, while in the 1950s large breasts were "in", etc. AnonMoos (talk) 16:38, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

There is a fallacy that if some of a physical quality is good, then more of that quality is better.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:23, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

It'd be a fallacy if many, many, many animal species didn't do the exact same thing. See sexual selection, i.e. peafowl, mandrill, etc. etc. That doesn't excuse the unrealistic models of beauty that mass media foists onto young women, for example. But at least don't pretend like it's some unnnatural thing; it's a fairly normal state of affairs. If one is going to correct for it, one needs to at least be honest with what it is... --Jayron32 22:33, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

I wonder how the typical buzzard distinguishes between the pretty ones and the plain ones. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:19, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Beauty is objectively measured in Helens. One Helen can launch a thousand ships, a milliHelen's worth of facial beauty will launch one ship. And perhaps set fire to a waste paper basket. ;-) Dmcq (talk) 17:23, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Mass media are guilty of misrepresenting abnormality as normality. Let us strive to avoid being misled.

• "The Influence of Media Marketing on Adolescent Girls"

—Wavelength (talk) 17:55, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree that some features are (almost) universally considered desirable while others vary by culture and time. However, even if there was a feature which was universally considered desirable by every human who ever lived, that would still be a subjective standard, not an objective one, since it's all opinion. Now, if you set some objective goal, like a woman being able to "bear children successfully", then you can come up with an objective physical form; in this case, wide hips. StuRat (talk) 06:16, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Which cities gave the most votes to which party in 2013 Israeli elections

Which cities or places of Israel gave the most votes to which parties?--Donmust90 (talk) 18:11, 20 March 2013 (UTC)Donmust90

You might try the Israeli Central Elections Committee website at [23], or, more specifically, the results by city. Not sure how much info the English version provides. Can you read Hebrew? Otherwise, you may need to use google translate. 58.111.228.223 (talk) 09:04, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Just fascinating. If you want to understand just how diverse and politically complex a place Israel is you can, to give just one example, compare the results for the United Torah Judaism party in Jerusalem (1st place, 22% of the vote) and Tel Aviv (15th, 1% of the vote). Overall, the party came sixth, with just over 5%, giving it seven seats in the 120 seat 19th Knesset. --Dweller (talk) 12:12, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

A response from Winston Churchill made at a dinner party to an affronted dame.

The affronted dame said 'sir, you are drunk'. Winston's response was; 'Madam, you are ugly: tomorrow, I shall be sober! My question is: Who was the woman? If the date and social context were known; that would be excellent. Thank you86.137.130.213 (talk) 22:10, 20 March 2013 (UTC) Susie Bloomfield

Usually supposed to be Bessie Braddock, but possibly apocryphal. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:22, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Apocryphally, Bessie Braddock (1899-1970), a Liverpool MP - there's a statue of her on the main concourse of Liverpool Lime Street railway station and you can judge her ugliness for yourself from this photo. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 23:40, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

W.C. Fields made a somewhat similar comment in his 1934 film, It's a Gift. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:41, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

The statue does not do her justice. Photos: [24] [25]. Paul B (talk) 10:31, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Artist who did hot air balloon print entitled AT&T THUNDERBIRD BALLOON CLASSIC 1988

Thanks to everyone who answered my questions regarding id this artist. I did upload a pic of the print in TinEye Reverse but I'm having trouble figuring out how to use their service & maneuver in TinEye so I will try here again. I bought this print many years ago at an estate sale in Phx., Az but I was never able to know the last name of the artist because she scribbled her last name so badly, it is not legible. I don't know if the experts at Wikipedia are able to see pics on TinEye but if you are it is tagged as PRINTBALLOON6.JPG & the info on the screen where it was uploaded shows it will be there for 72 hours & then deleted. I also don't know if there is a zoom feature to see the artist's signature. I can take another pic of just the sig & upload that if it will help. It is alson being shown on eBay where there is a zoom feature. Use the title of the print to see pic. I think the 1st name of the artist is Gloria? or Diana, but it looks more like a Gloria. The last name may end in islew? I hope you can help me. I have googled till I'm blind. I'm grateful for any help. Thanks Barb Greer (talk) 22:30, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Could you give a direct link to the URL address for the webpage of the image? Paul B (talk) 10:37, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

old threshing techniques

How would threshing have been done in the 1200's?--Doug Coldwell (talk) 12:41, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

You're in luck. Our article on flail includes an image from 1270. --Dweller (talk) 12:53, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Wow, that DID answer my question. Thanks!--Doug Coldwell (talk) 12:59, 21 March 2013 (UTC)