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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Greatness Bites (talk | contribs) at 13:26, 2 October 2013 (→Oppose move to "Chelsea Manning": add a vote). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Move request 2

Note: !votes and comments on this proposal to move the article belong in the appropriate sections below.
Note also: this is a Requested Move, not a Request for Comment. It is not expected that a Requested Move be phrased in a neutral format: instead, it is expected that the proposer endorse the move. It is the responsibility of people reviewing the request to review the evidence and form their own opinion.


Bradley Manning → Chelsea Manning – As proposed by the closers of the last debate and agreed by subsequent consensus, I am starting the new move discussion and proposing that we move the article currently located at Bradley Manning to Chelsea Manning, for the following reasons:

  • On August 22, 2013, the subject of this article announced that she identified as female and that her name is Chelsea E. Manning, and requested that people refer to her using this name.
  • Most reliable sources started using this name within a week. At this point (30 September 2013), the overwhelming majority of reliable sources use Chelsea Manning when referring to this person.
  • Many editors have expressed a concern that using the former name of a transgendered person—that she has requested not be used—as the article title, is offensive and causes harm to that person.

Relevant sources on usage in reliable sources as well as relevant policies and guidelines, contributed by various users over the last few weeks, are cited below. Josh Gorand (talk) 19:15, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Discussion guidelines

Click here to read the guidance for this discussion

Please be civil, and respect the viewpoints of others. Please do not engage in battlegrounding. Please assume good faith and do not engage in personal attacks.

Please cite relevant Wikipedia policies when you make your argument. You may wish to consider the arguments that others put forward in the previous move request.

Respect other editors and stay on topic

Wikipedia has editors from all over the world, raised in different societies and with different cultural norms, so please assume good faith and accept that different people may have different views from you on this subject. This discussion centers around the title of the article currently located at Bradley Manning. Please comment only about what you think the best choice of article title is according to Wikipedia's policies; please refrain from making other types of comments. For example, your personal opinions about transgenderism — whether pro or con — are not germane to this discussion, and such off-topic comments may be closed or ignored.

Avoiding offensive language

Wikipedia's Biographies of living persons policy also applies on talk pages, so please familiarize yourself with it. To avoid what some perceive as transphobia[1] during this discussion and to ensure there is a welcoming environment for editors of all kinds, please consider adhering to the following guidelines:

  1. Do not use the following words, which are considered offensive: 'transvestite,' 'she-male,' 'he-she,' 'it,' 'trannie,' 'tranny,' and 'shim.'
  2. Avoid comparing Manning's Gender identity disorder to the belief that one is an animal or object (e.g. "if I wake up one morning and decide I'm a dog, that doesn't make me one.") Manning was diagnosed with gender identity disorder by a clinical psychologist in 2010, so the gender and name change is not a whim nor is Manning's diagnosis a legal tactic.
  3. Do not share your opinion on whether or not Manning is really a woman, or needs to have surgery, hormone treatment, or a legal name change to become one. This is a debate about an article title, not a forum to discuss Manning's "true" gender or sex.
  4. Do not make comments about what sort of genitals Manning has, which is irrelevant to the title of the article and none of our business.
  5. Do not state that Manning's only "real" name is Bradley or Chelsea. You can share your thoughts on what Manning's "legal" name is, but recall that, per WP:AT and WP:OFFICIALNAME, there is no obligation for biographies to use the legal names of their subjects as their titles.
  6. The question of what pronouns to use for Manning is contentious, and current usage in sources is mixed. It has been suggested the best way to avoid offense is to use 'she' when referring to Manning in the present tense.[2] In any case, the move request is not a discussion on the use of pronouns in the article.
  7. Do not make speculative remarks about the future (e.g. Manning might change her mind next week/year). Wikipedia is not a crystal ball.

How to respond to offensive language

Please remember that the policy No personal attacks applies to this discussion, for all editors. If you see someone's comment and it offends you or you find it transphobic, consider informing them with a civil note on their talk page that you find their language inappropriate, or reporting their comment at WP:ANI if it is egregiously offensive. We're all learning here, and a more open approach (e.g. "You said this, which could be construed as harmful language towards a BLP, can you consider rewording it") may yield more dividends than simply accusing someone of transphobia because they crossed a line they may not have been aware of. Blanket statements like "Those proposing to keep the article titled Bradley are bigoted transphobes" polarize the discussion and are likely to make other contributors less willing to understand your view.

Resources to learn about transgender people

Sanctions

Discussion of the subject of this article and/or transgender issues falls under standard discretionary sanctions. See also, WP:BLPBAN.

Notes

  1. ^ Transphobia is defined as "A reaction of fear, loathing, and discriminatory treatment of people whose identity or gender presentation (or perceived gender or gender identity) does not “match,” in the societally accepted way, the sex they were assigned at birth." @ Words That are Transphobic and Why
  2. ^ Use of female pronouns for Manning is recommended by the Manual of Style. The National Gay and Lesbian Journalists Association suggests the use of 'he' for the writing of historical events and 'she' for the present tense, here and here, while 'she' is recommended by many other organizations such as GLAAD for all phases of Manning's life. The AP stylebook states "Transgender: Use the pronoun preferred by the individuals who have acquired the physical characteristics of the opposite sex or present themselves in a way that does not correspond with their sex at birth. If that preference is not expressed, use the pronoun consistent with the way the individuals live publicly."

Relevant content policies and guidelines

Click here for a list of relevant content policies and guidelines

Below is a listing of Wikipedia policies and guidelines that may be relevant to this discussion. They are sorted in alphabetical order by page title, then by section title, so as to remain neutral.


Evidence

Click here for evidence on usage of Bradley and Chelsea from various reliable sources.

Evidence from reliable news sources on what names they use on first mention

This section can be used to gather evidence from reliable sources on usage of Chelsea Manning vs Bradley Manning as the primary name of the subject.

Sources are sorted based on their latest use of one name or the other in an article or editorial statement from after August 22, when the announcement was made. It is trivially obvious that sources from before the announcement use Bradley; that is not of interest and such sources are not listed here.

Note that regardless of which name they use on first mention, almost all of the sources listed in both sections mention and contribute to readers' awareness of the existence of both names.

Statements by news agencies on their policy to address Manning as Chelsea
News agencies with a policy of addressing Manning as Chelsea
Statements by news agencies on their policy to address Manning as Bradley
News agencies with a policy of addressing Manning as Bradley
News agencies using Chelsea Manning
News agencies using Chelsea Manning
News agencies using post-announcement AP or AFP articles while retaining Chelsea
News agencies using Bradley Manning
News agencies using Bradley Manning
News agencies which modified AP or AFP stories to use "Bradley"
News agencies which haven't clearly chosen one name over the other

News sources which have mixed up usage of Bradley and Chelsea. In most cases, if a news source started using Bradley post Aug 22, and then started exclusively using Chelsea, we marked it in the Chelsea list. However, if a news source has alternated between use of Bradley and Chelsea since Aug 22, then it is listed here.

Extended content

Evidence from reliable non-news sources on what names they use

Chelsea
Non-news sources addressing Manning as Chelsea
Bradley
Non-news sources addressing Manning as Bradley
  • "While PVT Manning wants supporters to acknowledge and respect her gender identity as she proceeds into the post-trial state of her life, she also expects that the name Bradley Manning and the male pronoun will continue to be used in certain instances. These instances include any reference to the trial, in legal documents, in communication with the government, in the current petition to the White House calling for clemency, and on the envelope of letters written to her by supporters. She also expects that many old photos and graphics will remain in use for the time being." Statements by Manning's Lawyer, David Coombs
  • Lawyers for Manning used the name "Bradley" in a 9/3/2013 cover letter to the President. Pardon request cover letter for Pvt. Manning.

Sources specifically discussing media usage

Sources discussing media usage
Sources specifically discussing the title of the Wikipedia article
Sources discussing the title of this Wikipedia article

On initial move from Bradley to Chelsea

On reversal from Chelsea to Bradley

(list courtesy of [14])

Sources discussing how naming decisions affect trans people
Sources discussing how naming decisions affect trans people

This section can also be used to gather reliable sources that discuss the use of names to refer to trans people. Note that this move request covers only the naming portion, and not the pronoun question.

A. Finn Enke, editor of Transfeminist Perspectives in and beyond Transgender and Gender Studies, considers names, pronouns, and learning from Chelsea Manning.
  • Subsection of Trans media watch submission to the Leveson Inquiry (press controls in the UK, [15]). On page 11 they discuss methods by which the press aggress against trans people; the first bulletpoint in that section:
"Routine use of previous names - even when the use of these names is intensely painful or places them in actual danger. Typically a transitioning transsexual person will wish to move on from their previous identity, having perhaps lived in deep distress within that ’identity’ in the past. They may be working with colleagues who know nothing of their past, or they may not have revealed their life story to neighbours. Gratuitous revelation can lead to abuse. Further, for transgender people who have a Gender Recognition Certificate, it is illegal for an individual working in an "official capacity" to disclose a person’s previous name. They are, for all legal purposes, recognised in the gender in which they live. This seldom makes any difference to the press."
  • Juliet Jacques article discussing choosing a new name. She states that someone using her old name can be "a mistake [or] a malicious attempt to undermine my identity".

Some editors have expressed a concern that the following source is not reliable, while other editors consider it to be reliable:

  • Wikipedia’s Deadnaming Violence ("our old name are frequently weaponised against us, often as a precursor to physical violence. And the violence of weaponized old names springs from the same disrespect, mockery, and hatred that informs fatal physical violence. These are all connected.") (Urban Achives) (written by digital media ethics scholar)

Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section below, followed by an explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a substitute for discussion, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation. Responses to statements made in the survey sections should be restricted to the discussion section.

Support move to "Chelsea Manning"

  1. Strong support. This seems to be the most common name now, and articles on other transgendered persons are at their identifying name to satisfy BLP and IDENTITY -- save this one, an omission that should be corrected. Dralwik|Have a Chat 20:08, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  2. Strong Support. I am not an expert on policy, but I think respect is important. I think disrespecting her clearly-stated identity would encourage cissexism, risking harm to trans people, and would open a can of worms about when to respect people's identities and when not to. Ananiujitha (talk) 20:23, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  3. Support per BLP, because this is the name she has announced for herself, and per V and COMMONNAME, because it appears to be the name most used by reliable sources since the announcement. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:32, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  4. Support. First, to address WP:BLP policy, some things are mandated by BLP policy, when something is mandated by BLP policy, BLP policy trumpts pretty much all other concerns, and only once the BLP issue is resolved, will other policies come in to play. The classic example of such a mandate is that a negative statement about a living person must be properly sourced, or it must be removed. Other points in WP:BLP carry considerable weight, but are not mandates. The latter covers the language such as the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment in the introductory paragraphs, and that human dignity and personal privacy be taken into account from the Foundation statement. That language does not mandate a specific result, only that things be considered when exercising our editorial judgement. In my opinion, WP:BLP does not mandate a result here. Nonetheless, we should give strong weight to the non-mandatory language. In the case of a person who has changed names as a result of gender identity, their wishes, when clearly expressed, should carry considerable weight. While in specific cases there may be facts that change the calculus, in most cases the wishes of the subject should outweigh WP:Article Titles and WP:COMMONNAME. While we generally prefer to follow the language used by most reliable sources, there is a good reason not to here, and the alternative is also supported by reliable sources, albeit fewer. I think number of people where suspicious of the timing here, it occurring right at the peak of Manning's notoriety. However, as time has gone on, and we look deeper at the question, it has become increasingly clear that the revelation regarding Manning's gender identity is legitimate. As such, there is nothing here that would change that default calculus, and the article should be moved to Chelsea Manning. Monty845 20:33, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  5. Support per WP:COMMONNAME more sources are using Chelsea now. However WP:BLP does not apply and as noted before by another editor there have been good faith opinions but no real evidence to support the claim. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:35, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  6. Support per WP:COMMONNAME - the obvious trend among sources is to use Chelsea. Additionally, BLP - while somewhat vague on this point - would, in my opinion, tend to back such a move. Kiralexis (talk) 20:38, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  7. Support per WP:BLP and MOS:IDENTITY, and because this is the name that the majority of sources appear now to be using. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:41, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  8. Support per MOS:IDENTITY, WP:COMMONNAME and human decency. There will be no reader confusion with a redirect from Bradley Manning - David Gerard (talk) 20:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  9. Support per WP:COMMONNAME Iselilja (talk) 20:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  10. Support. In contrast to the situation at the time of the original move, most sources are now using "Chelsea" in reports of current events. Our normal practice of respecting people's self-identification in the absence of serious and meaningful doubts as to its sincerity or accuracy (i.e. that mysterious "spirit" of WP:BLP) is no longer in conflict with established sources.—Kww(talk) 20:47, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  11. Support. Chelsea Manning is a woman, and must be treated like one. Christine Jorgensen similarly has an article titled as such, not as George Jorgensen, which is just a re-direct. Georgia guy (talk) 20:52, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  12. Support as per WP:COMMONNAME, but not per WP:BLP. It is not a violation of BLP to use "Bradley Manning" as the title, but we should recognize that most sources have adopted "Chelsea Manning" as the preferred name. Edge3 (talk) 21:01, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  13. Support, naturally per BLP. It's her name and we are only causing harm by misgendering her under her former name. It's shameful to have taken this long to correct the title but let's get it done now. Sportfan5000 (talk) 21:02, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  14. Support per WP:COMMONNAME and MOS:IDENTITY. If she identifies herself as a woman and wishes to undergo hormone treatment tand surgery to legitimately become one, she is a woman. Konveyor Belt express your horror at my edits 21:03, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  15. Support; the reasoning and justification for doing so is overwhelming to my eyes. Andrew Gray (talk) 21:04, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  16. Support per BLP and because so long as a redirect is in place no confusion will result, while leaving it as it is is an implicit insult to any trans* people reading Wikipedia, and where possible we should strive to minimise such insults to marginalised groups. Stealth Munchkin (talk) 21:06, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  17. Support. With gratitude to editors tracking name usage in reliable sources, which indicate that, per WP:COMMONNAME and,WP:MOSIDENTITY. and because Chelsea Manning is a woman, her article should be appropriately renamed. I, JethroBT drop me a line 21:14, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  18. Support per WP:DIGNITY. It is insulting to title an article with a name the subject rejects. We should always use a subject's preferred name on their biography when, as in this case from day one, doing so won't make the article difficult to find. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 21:20, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  19. Support. The list above of news sources that are currently using "Chelsea" ought to settle the issue even for people who have a range of different views on the general question, I think. - Dank (push to talk) 21:25, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  20. Support per WP:COMMONNAME, as most sources are now using Chelsea, and per WP:BLP, which provides a reasonable basis for using her name, even if the policy does not expressly require it. Gobōnobō + c 21:41, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  21. Support, despite the disruptive "I wanna be first" start to this RM which completely disregarded the hard work of all of the editors who have been working for a month to put this RM together. Per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:DIGNITY, there is no reason to hold the article at Bradley. Redirects are cheap.--v/r - TP 21:44, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  22. Support RS are using both Chelsea Manning and Bradley Manning. From my owns analysis of Google News, I judge Chelsea Manning to be ahead in sources but (surprisingly to me) not vastly. If this were on another topic, I'd say wait a while longer to give sources more time to settle. However, I find WP:DIGNITY to be compelling in this case. As clarified in the previous RM, there are no WP:IDENTITY or WP:BLP issues with the article being at the title Bradley Manning. However, there is little benefit now to the encyclopaedia in keeping it there. Manning herself has said she wants to be called as Chelsea. And the majority of sources appear to be to be on the "Chelsea" side of the question. So out of respect for the subject, given that we can see now that that's how sources are leaning, it's time to move. --Tóraí (talk) 21:50, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  23. Support I have to say I really don't even understand opposition to this. If Jim Smith changed his name to John Jones, why would anybody oppose changing his article name? The redirect will still exist, so opposition cannot be based on the possibility of confusion. If someone got married and changed names, would we insist her article stay under her maiden name? If we didn't like that someone with a traditional name like Clay changed his last name to Ali, would we block a move? This discussion strikes me as bizarre in the extreme. μηδείς (talk) 21:59, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  24. Support for the all of the reasons it should have been done a month ago. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:07, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  25. Support I think the U.S. law principle of strict scrutiny for rules that cause potential harm to disadvantaged groups is the simplest way to look at this. Adapting the principles of that would require us to have compelling encyclopedic reasons, avoid overbroad solutions, and use the least damaging means to achieve the encyclopedic ends. Is there a strong encyclopedic benefit to making clear that "Chelsea Manning" is the same person as the "Bradley Manning" that all the older news, from before she came out, reported on? Yes, so mentioning it comes under a compelling encyclopedic interest. However, having the page at Bradley is both an overbroad solution, and causes potential harm unnecessarily, by passing an editorial judgement that a transwoman should officially be known under her male name. The encyclopedic purpose is served nearly or equally as well by having the page at Chelsea Manning, and stating in the first sentence that she was formerly known as "Bradley Manning", and having a redirect from "Bradley Manning" to bring in anyone who has not heard about her coming out. As such, having the page at Bradley Manning is overbroad and fails to use the least damaging means to the encyclopedic ends, and must be rejected. Adam Cuerden (talk) 22:20, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  26. Support 100% common name and although not strictly BLP i feel a person should be known by what they wish more than ever in cases of transgender.Blethering Scot 22:27, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  27. Support. It's been so long, I've forgotten anything about who Chelsea Manning is or why she is not called Bradley, so I'm just following the herd, really. Please discount my vote. For the record, though, it's absolutely obvious that there's a BLP issue with calling a person by a name they have taken a decision not to be known by. This should be noted by the closer. Formerip (talk) 22:58, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  28. Support primarily as an ethical position (so policy-wise channel that via BLP or via the "problematic names" language in WP:AT, but it's a justification not a reason). Chris Smowton (talk) 23:04, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  29. Support It is the person's name now - does not seem like there is much to dispute. --Varnent (talk)(COI) 23:18, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  30. Support I agree there is no BLP concern with the title and that the MOS does not override policy, but it does seem clear that reliable sources are leaning heavily towards Chelsea Manning being used for the common name as I suspected they would. Whether it is truly at the moment where it is the most common name or not, I see no reason to prolong the inevitable. Unless he opts for another name or reneges, there is no reason to not use Chelsea.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 23:19, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  31. Support per WP:COMMONNAME, although I also think WP:BLP applies in this situation since disregarding a person's gender change in an article title is disrespectful and could have real negative effects on that person. Kaldari (talk) 23:25, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  32. Support Chelsea per WP:AT, esp WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CRITERIA. Reject WP:BLP as reason. Explanation below.
    • On August 22, 2013, Manning announced that she identified as female and that her name is Chelsea E. Manning, and requested that people refer to her using this name. We thus have clear documentation of the subject's preference - which is normally not closely considered, but should be nonetheless taken account of as one factor for the discussion.
    • In the weeks following the announcement, the bulk of reliable sources started using the name Chelsea on first use to identify the subject (while still explaining that this was a person previously known as Bradley).
    • Per WP:COMMONNAME, when a name change occurs, we should give more priority to sources *after* the name change than before. With that in mind, the evidence below was on use AFTER August 22. In terms of pure numbers, there will likely *always* be more articles that refer to Manning as Bradley, since so much coverage was generated before and during the trial, vs after it. This should not prevent us from considering a move, however.
    • In addition, several major news sources, including NY Times, AP, TIME, and NPR publicly stated their editorial guidelines for using "Chelsea" to refer to the subject. It was worth noting that both NY Times and NPR stumbled early on, and struggled with many of the same issues Wikipedians did in the earlier discussion, but finally decided to address Manning as Chelsea and use the female pronouns.
    • Another change of note was the Encyclopedia Brittanica, which changed the title of their article on September 5, 2013. Encyclopedias are different than news sources, so the fact that they changed is significant.
    • At this point, as one of the small group of editors building sources for this move request, I have become very familiar with media usage of Bradley and Chelsea, and have watched many sources change before my eyes. There are still exceptions - for example AFP, which is one of the major wire services, has been found to use both, even though an email from an AFP editor claimed they were going to use Chelsea. We also saw instances of AP-issued stories being modified, changing "Chelsea" to Bradley. I have noticed a pattern whereby sources which have signed on to the use of Chelsea may nonetheless use Bradley in ancillary articles that only mention the subject - which would explain why you may still see hits with "Bradley" in those sources.
    • Many editors have invoked BLP. I believe BLP is not a reason to move this page, as the name Bradley is well sourced in reliable sources and it has not been demonstrated that having "Bradley" in the title is somehow significantly more harmful than having "Bradley" in the lede, infobox, photos, running text, or redirects. If "Bradley" was a BLP issue, then the word should be excised, but instead we welcome it everywhere. Thus, while BLP does apply to titles in general, BLP cannot be used as a reason to move this one.
    • In close cases, COMMONNAME is notoriously hard to determine. The evidence gathered above, while not overwhelmingly in favor of Chelsea, is nonetheless solid - but it's not yet a slam dunk, esp given major wire services like AFP, Reuters and UPI have not demonstrated a clear preference, and some "Chelsea" sources have been seen to slip back to Bradley (w/o mention of Chelsea) in ancillary articles, thus suggesting "Bradley" is still common, at least for that writer. Overall, Chelsea wins for COMMONNAME, but what tips the scale here are the other criteria, per WP:AT, and the subject's preference. Those criteria are as follows:
    • Recognizability – Chelsea is now, arguably, as recognizable or moreso than Bradley, due to the rapid switch in the media
    • Naturalness – Bradley is still probably a better fit for this, since most searches will still be on Bradley Bradley vs Chelsea search trends
    • Precision – Chelsea and Bradley are equally precise
    • Conciseness – Chelsea and Bradley are equally concise
    • Consistency - A tally of trans* people's articles found that the vast majority were at their most recent name. In the name of consistency, people would thus expect to find a trans* person's article at their most recent name.
    • Finally, we have clearly expressed preferences of the subject, and in the name of balancing potential offense to the subject with an encyclopedic title, we don't have to choose between the two any longer, as Chelsea works just fine. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:36, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    It seems you've failed to see the irony of your above justification for not using BLP as part of your support rationale: "...we have clearly expressed preferences of the subject, and in the name of balancing potential offense to the subject with an encyclopedic title, we don't have to choose between the two any longer..." — if I am not mistaken, that is the very spirit of BLP. Kurtis (talk) 01:28, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    well perhaps the spirit moved me. Nonetheless, if the sources were flipped the other way, with 40% for Chelsea, I would have stil !voted for the move - but if the sources were only 5% Chelsea, probably not. Many have proposed BLP as a trump card here, and stated that irregardless of sources, BLP trumps commonname. I disagree. The feelings of the subject do count, but so does our responsibility to neutrally report facts from RS.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:49, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    I supported the move but I think it's incorrect to state it's the COMMONNAME in any meaningful way (or BLP violation). The press still has to address the reader with a "formerly Bradley Manning" to acquaint them with the subject. That's a defacto "we are switching from the common name to this new name." Only people particularly tuned in to the name change are aware of the issue. It remains to be seen if the public outside interested WP editors and the transgender community will ever clearly adopt "Chelsea Manning" as the most recognizable name. Most people don't keep up with the personal stuff. If in six months, the majority of articles have dropped the "formerly Bradley Manning" monicker, or start using "Chelsea" in tangential articles, we will know where the population stands. --DHeyward (talk) 22:49, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    Well you both agree here that a title doesn't need the most common name every time, so I think you're actually quite close on this interpretation. __Elaqueate (talk) 11:15, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
  33. Support RS are taking up the new name. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 23:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  34. Support – Per WP:COMMONNAME. The sources have largely gone this way, we should too. I would also say that I don't believe WP:BLP applies here and strongly disagree with the suggestions that an individual changing their name requires the article title be changed as well. There's nothing wrong with taking that into consideration, and in Chelsea's case here, I believe it would have tipped the scales of my opinion if the sources' choices had not been as strong as they are, but there are plenty of possible rename cases (where the name change in question has nothing to do with those individuals' gender identities) where doing so could produce a suboptimal or even bad result. Egsan Bacon (talk) 00:04, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  35. Support per WP:COMMONNAME, common sense, etc. Legoktm (talk) 00:08, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  36. Support per MOS:IDENTITY and common decency.-gadfium 00:17, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  37. Support. First, because the source material has clearly moved in this direction. Second, even though I accept that BLP does not mandate that we do this, I think that the spirit of BLP (or WP:DIGNITY if one prefers) points us in the direction that this is the right editorial choice to make. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:27, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  38. Support—it is just the right thing to do at this time per policy and the MOS. Imzadi 1979 → 00:56, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  39. Support I did a search and found out that Editors were debating Manning's identity change on Wikipedia back in 2012. So, this name change did not come out of the blue. I think if you look at transgender individuals on WP, it's clear that we honor their sexual identity decisions. This is not an isolated case and it should be handled like other transgender people's articles. Liz Read! Talk! 01:04, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  40. Chelsea identifies herself as a female. Gender identity is not defined by one's sexual organs. Kurtis (talk) 01:20, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  41. Support because of WP:IAR and WP:HARM. "Bradley Manning" is not a BLP violation. "Bradley Manning" is the COMMONNAME known by 95% of the population and why every news article that mentions Chelsea has to introduce her using "Bradley Manning". Whether that will diminish is yet to be known but today, the common name is "Bradley" as the press is in transition. Moreover, news article that aren't specifically about Chelsea Manning (i.e. the "Coombs announcement interview" week articles and last weeks "Coomb's tours Leavenworth" articles) , invariably use "Bradley Manning" when word count is more important (i.e. google news search the last week for "snowden manning -chelsea" returns numerous, post anouncement articles about whistleblowers that ignore Mannings preferred name and her gender including news sources with MOS statements. It remains to be seen whether articles that indirectly mention Manning will use Chelsea or Bradley or the current "Chelsea, formerly Bradley, Manning." The only real reason to move now is that the encyclopedic value lost by using Chelsea is outweighed by the perceived harm. All of our policies and guidelines for content say "Bradley Manning" and rather than torture ourselves into fitting this move into a policy that rejects it, it's simply easier to IAR and move it due to harm. Create the redirect (or dab) from Bradley Manning to Chelsea Manning so that 95% of our readers can find it. --DHeyward (talk) 02:10, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  42. Strong support. I do believe WP:BLP is an issue, although I acknowledge other editors feel differently. Regardless, WP:DIGNITY, WP:HARM, MOS:IDENTITY and WP:COMMONNAME all support the move. I agree with DHeyward that the cost of the move is non-existent and therefore outweighed by any prospect of harm. Sue Gardner (talk) 02:54, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  43. Support because it's the right thing to do, regardless of whatever bureaucratic acronyms we choose to wrap it in. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:05, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  44. Support per WP:COMMONNAME given RS usage but also WP:BLP (& other policies as above). AnonNep (talk) 04:15, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  45. Support. Looking over the evidence, it's immediately clear the direction all the sources are moving is aligned with this person's preference. Great job collecting all the evidence, to everyone who did that. -WPGA2345-Talk 06:00, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  46. Support. The media sources I'm seeing all now use "Chelsea". ciphergoth (talk) 06:31, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  47. Strong Support per MOS:IDENTITY, WP:DIGNITY, WP:HARM and WP:COMMONNAME. Commentary removed pursuant to discretionary sanctions. Please do not restore. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 15:40, 1 October 2013 (UTC) Arkady Rose (talk) 06:57, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    I've already posted a longer statement to your talk page, but I am extremely offended by this characterization of my comments, clear violations of WP:NPA and WP:AGF. Failing a redress, I intend to the next steps outlined in WP:DR CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 14:32, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    @User:Arkady Rose, please review the guidance in the above section on responding to offensive language. bd2412 T 14:45, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  48. Support. It is clear that by now almost all sources are using Chelsea now, with the notable exception of CNN, and BBC being rather vague on the issue. Still, I would say from anecdotical evidence, the most common name in use is still Bradley. That there are no sources that don't use the Chelsea exclusively, but always include that Chelsea used to be known as Bradley speaks clearly that they think people will be confused, or will not understand who this Chelsea is when they don't explain her former name and identity. If our only responsibility were ease of use, Bradley would be the better choice. But it's not. We have a strong impact on real people, and using the name Bradley is denying the identity of the subject. This doesn't only impact Manning, but also many other transgendered individuals that see their identity being denied by arguably the single most influential source on the internet: us. This causes serious harm, and we're not here to do harm. If we're not here to do the right thing, I have no idea why we are here in the first place. That is not to say that Wikipedia should be used for activism. Had we been the only ones to use Chelsea, it could been seen as an activist choice, and the discussion would be far harder, with far more things to balance, but the fact of the matter is that we're not. In the end, having the article at Bradley has very few things going for it: The inmeasurable 'word on the street', and that when she was at the height of her fame/infamity, she was known as Bradley. I find these arguments to be exceedingly weak for determining the article location, especially when compared to the arguments in favor of Chelsea. Again, almost all sources now use Chelsea, and they do that for roughly the abovementioned reasons. So should we. Not because others use Chelsea as primary identification, but for the same reasons they choose to use Chelsea. all these reasons are currently policy here. If people mistakenly think that pointing to policy is a more valid argument than making the actual points (feel sorry for them), here is some acronym soup for you: WP:BLP WP:HARM WP:COMMONNAME WP:DIGNITY WP:AT. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 08:00, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  49. Support - Per the strong suggestions made in MOS:IDENTITY and WP:BLP that we weigh the considerations of encyclopedicity and humanity when making content decisions. The WP:COMMONNAME balance is tipping rapidly, and a cheap redirect takes care of any issues with making sure readers can find what they're looking for. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 08:22, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  50. Support - Based on WP:COMMONAME. Whilst the media switch to Chelsea isn't as convincing as I would like due to the dearth of articles post-announcement which are unrelated to the announcement itself, I certainly think there's enough RS usage to justify the move at this point. I appreciate some of the arguments made in opposition to the move, but based on the evidence and precedents, I don't think there's anything strong enough there to make it worth a fight over. --Jeude54cartes (talk) 09:33, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  51. It's call basic human decency. KTC (talk) 10:06, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  52. Support - WP:COMMONNAME, MOS:IDENTITY, and WP:BLP continue to align to support the move, just as they did when the article was moved back. Morwen (talk) 10:47, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  53. Support The moment some minor member of the British upper classes becomes a Lord or a Lady, or marries off to some ghastly in-bred Royal, we are perfectly happy to shunt their article over to "Lord Somesuch of Whatnot" or the "Duke of Lower Miscellanea" (in the case of Kate Middleton, we had Jimmy Wales hovering over the move button during the wedding ceremony!). The moment someone gets married and drops their maiden name in favour of their husband's name, we are more than happy to shunt their article over without demanding 150 news articles and a signed form in triplicate. When someone asks that they be referred to more casually—Suzie rather than Suzanne, Bob rather than Robert, Dick rather than Richard etc.—people generally comply. It is only when the name change is accompanied by a change in gender that everyone freaks out and starts imposing arbitrary standards—legal documentation, proof that everybody on the planet has started using the new name, maybe even (photographic?) proof that the person has undergone gender transition surgery. This strange exceptionalist standard is in itself rather shoddy treatment of trans people and enforcement of said standards seems to be inhumane to me. Under WP:BLP and WP:IAR, we should try our hardest to respect people's self-identity on matters like sexuality, religion and, yes, gender identity. —Tom Morris (talk) 11:01, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    • I agree this is the essence of the case. Well said! Josh Gorand (talk) 12:21, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    • Though it appears Lauren Bush is at her birth name as her article title, not the amusing married name of Lauren Lauren, though at one point the article was at Lauren Bush Lauren. *Dan T.* (talk) 12:38, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    • @Tom Morris: Casting aspersions on the motives of those opposed to the Chelsea Manning title (now or before) is not helpful. It is not at all true that we immediately reflect name changes in titles for every non-transgender individual; Lily Allen and Cat Stevens are examples of individuals whose professional -- and legal -- names were changed (Allen changed her professional name back last month though) whose articles were not moved accordingly. And while there are examples of rapid moves (like with Kate Middleton), others (like Ron Artest), dare I say most others, undergo move requests. Please don't imply prejudice on the part of those opposed to the proposed title. -- tariqabjotu 22:06, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
      • I didn't suggest anything about the motives of anyone. I only questioned the standard some people are using, not the morals of the contributors using said standard. I certainly did not suggest that there was prejudice on the part of opposers. Of course, if people read my comment and see in themselves the spectre of bigotry and prejudice, that is not me pointing the finger but a reflection of their own conscience. —Tom Morris (talk) 08:05, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
  54. Support per WP:COMMONNAME (per number of sources using Chelsea vs Bradley in recent usage), WP:BLP (per WP:DIGNITY WP:HARM), and WP:SNOW with the including WP:COMMONSENSE, WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY, and WP:IAR for those arguing process (like ArbCom) over speediness for getting the article right. Last ofcourse is WP:IDENTITY, if that still counts. Belorn (talk) 13:22, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  55. Support, per my reasoning at the last discussion (WP:COMMONNAME and WP:BLP). Mynameisnotdave (talk/contribs) (formerly Insulam Simia) 14:13, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  56. Support. Even if I didn't still think that it was right to use a transgender individual's correct name as an article title, more and better sources are using "Chelsea" now. (Obviously look at the list of sources that use one over the other, but also just look at the list of sources that have made statements about which to use: high-quality news reporting like the NYT, AP, NPR, etc. vs. conservative rag the Washington Times.) I find the arguments that the sources used "Bradley" in their coverage before she came out rather inane, because, well, yes, newspapers don't employ clairvoyants. Sources also used to call JFK Airport "Idlewild." –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:47, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  57. Support per WP:COMMONNAME, WP:MOSIDENTITY, WP:DIGNITY, Wikipedia:Avoiding harm, and the lack of opposing arguments which I find persuasive. Most media sources use the name "Chelsea". Arguments that notable actions happened when the used a different name are not persuasive to me because there is nearly unanimous precedent that persons who get married and have a name change have their new names recognized a they wish by all media including Wikipedia, and this name change is an analogous situation. Enough time has passed to bring light to all available arguments and the weight of the evidence is on naming the article "Chelsea". I am happy for the pause to consider the move. That time was well spent. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:21, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  58. Support article move/rename: 1) Respect the subject's right to self-identify. 2) Trangenderism is a mental/emotional identity, not a physical state. Outward appearance and legal status are medically irrelevant, and changes to such depend on an individual's access to healthcare and court filings. 3) When writing or speaking about a transgender person, we are writing/reading or speaking/hearing in the present. Even when referring in the present to the person's past, their pronoun and name as they are currently known should be used. This is the opinion of the American Psychological Association, American Medical Association, Associated Press, GLAAD, Transgender Law Center, and Human Rights Campaign. 4) Precedence exists in other articles, such as Chaz Bono, Lana Wachowski. 5) If there's a parallel question regarding religious, artistic, or other name changes, I don't have an opinion there. 6) Redirects are inexpensive. Thank you, Startswithj (talk) 15:38, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  59. Weak Support I havn't seen any particualy strong arguments either way and in that case we should default to causing the least harm to the subject. CombatWombat42 (talk) 15:44, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  60. weak support Obi-Wan Kenobi made a decent argument that COMMONNAME supports this move, but that the BLP argument is weak, and I'm inclined to agree with that logic. JoshuaZ (talk) 15:51, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  61. The common name is "Chelsea", not "Bradley"; the article should reflect that. I agree with David Gerard that there will be no confusion. Acalamari 16:40, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  62. Support as in the last RM but with COMMONNAME at worst being a tie. Hobit (talk) 17:53, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  63. Support per WP:BLP and MOS:IDENTITY, and because the majority of sources appear now to be using this as the name of the person. The person's stated gender identity is sufficient, and proof of legal name change or medical evidence of gender surgery are not required. Edison (talk) 18:27, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  64. Support, it is inevitably what she will be known as. Still would have suggested she pick "Peyton". Torquemama007 (talk) 18:29, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  65. Support MOS:IDENTITY, WP:BLP, WP:COMMONNAME, but mainly just basic human decency. Katie R (talk) 19:54, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  66. Weak Support While I'm not 100% convinced on the grounds of WP:COMMONNAME given CNN's position, the invective I've seen concering the matter has, on reflection, persuaded me WP:DIGNITY and Wikipedia:Avoiding harm are realistic concerns. Dolescum (talk) 21:50, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  67. Support I do love that WP:COMMONNAME is being cited regularly to support both sides...perhaps we need to revisit WP:COMMONNAMEDkriegls (talk to me!) 22:15, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    That's why my !vote was COMMONAME++ - since COMMONNAME isn't quite a slam dunk yet, but it's close enough that we can bring in other concerns to tip the scales clearly in one way. The point made below, that in 2 years, people writing about this may use Bradley, is a good one, and we should be prepared to move it back if that truly happens.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:29, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  68. Support is respectful to wishes of subject of article, which I think better adhere to spirit of WP:BLP though I am not well versed in policy for speak to how adherent to letter of policy. Lakdfhia (talk) 03:37, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
  69. Support - The rationale behind the first proposed move and the admin's closure were correct. Now Chelsea is the common name so we should waste no time moving it. Marcus Qwertyus (talk) 07:28, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
  70. Support Now makes sense to me. Taylor Trescott - my talk + my edits 10:53, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
  71. Support per COMMONNAME and the fact that using Bradley could reasonably be perceived as pejorative by some. Space simian (talk) 12:08, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Oppose move to "Chelsea Manning"

  1. Oppose on COMMONNAME, Strong Oppose on any other basis. - There is no consensus as of yet among reliable sources of what title to use for Ms. Manning and in the absence of clear guidance from reliable sources, we should err with the stable title of Bradley Manning. In addition, Bradley Manning is the title used during the entirety of the period on which she was notable and WP:AT explicitly states that we have to "remember that the choice of title is not dependent on whether a name is "right" in a moral or political sense." Chelsea Manning would not be a terrible title for the article, but under WP:AT's description for what makes a good Wikipedia article, it falls short under the first pillar, recognition, relative to Bradley Manning, as she has been described for years.
    I strongly oppose on the basis of BLP or MOSIDENTITY. The individual under question was already noted as Bradley Manning for a very long period of time, so there's no outing or privacy issue and she's not notability for being a transgendered woman, but for being involved in a prominent espionage case. I don't see MOSIDENTITY as applicable here - even ignoring that its applicability to the situation is in dispute, a guideline cannot supercede a policy, that of WP:AT
    Note that this is only for the *title* of the article. I will strongly oppose any attempts to remove "she" or "her" or, where applicable "Chelsea" because unlike the title policy, these guidelines are not superceded by an applicable policy.CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 20:21, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    You mention a lack of reliable sources, although we have innumerable reliable sources mentioning what Manning herself wants. Is there some sort of reliable source that serves as a registry for name changes regardless of the subject's wishes? I know Germany doesn't allow children to be given certain names. Is there some analog for American citizens, especially adults? μηδείς (talk) 22:06, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    Are a subjects wishes a trump card in this matter? As I recall, that was not the case when there was all that fuss about Daniel Brandt being featured in an article. Dolescum (talk) 17:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  2. Oppose per commonname. Individual is notable for activities which took place while named Bradley Manning. Our primary obligation is to our readers who, per principle of least astonishment, will expect article to make name that has been most widely publicized. NE Ent 01:58, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    Redirects are cheap, and it is likely that both names will appear bolded in the lead. Any astonishment on the part of the reader is likely to be brief and superficial. Recent coverage, for which the subject is also notable, has extensively used her present name, and so it does not seem unreasonable to assume that many readers will actually expect Chelsea. I, JethroBT drop me a line 03:47, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  3. Oppose as "Bradley" is the name she was known as during her most notable activities; both leaking the material, and during the trial. I consider "Chelsea" as only being undo weight. I should add there is no possible application of BLP to this choice, whether the lead starts
    1. Bradley Manning, now known as Chelsea Elizabeth Manning, or
    2. Chelsea Elizabeth Manning, formerly known as Bradley Manning.
    — Arthur Rubin (talk) 03:01, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  4. Oppose retrospective renaming that conflicts with sources supporting the early material. Revisionism should be avoided. Bradley was the child and the person who committed the act, was caught and was sentenced. Bradley then became Chelsea. Both names should be used, divided by in the timeline at the point of change. On COMMONNAME, it refers to looking at usage in reliable sources, implied is that this refers to sources supporting the content. For the majority of this persons life, "Bradley" was the acknowledged name, and "he" the appilcable pronoun. Many sources introduce "Chelsea" only in relation to a relatively late change of choice of name and gender. Only of reliable sources on teh persons early life employ a retrospective name change should we do so.

    BLP, DIGNITY and HARM claims are exaggerated to the point of being false. There is no problem in saying that in 2010 he was known to others as Bradley. The stated concerns don't arise until later in the timeline.

    Suggest a compromise title, reflecting the non-constancy of a name, Chelsea Elizabeth Manning, formerly known as Bradley Manning. (Oppose the use of the word "now") --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:17, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

    As a title, not a sentence in the lead? Can you point out any parallel cases for people with name changes?—Kww(talk) 06:20, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    Yes. Current Wikipedian affection for minimalist titling notwithstanding. This person defies a single defining name, so compromise. Chelsea Elizabeth Manning, née Bradley Edward Manning also works, but I fear an inevitable future conundrum when someone changes from a name that was not their birth name. The feminine "née" Bradley is an attractive provocative contradiction. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:10, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Livingstone_(née_Moffat). I think "Chelsea (née Bradley) Manning" does a much better job of rectifying the principle of least astonishment wp:blp (the spirit, it's not a trump card), and wp:commonname. I oppose any argument that weighs the attractiveness of the title over clarity and communication (eg It's not clean/it's ugly). Disambiguation and clarification in parenthesis are unrelated to wp:commonname. I also oppose the notion (and rhetoric) that the title will cause harm when subject's statement itself acknowledges the old name will continue to be used. Chelsea is more respectful, but Bradley is not inherently disrespectful. Xkcdreader (talk) 06:55, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    I'm in general alignment with you over the "harm" issue. Your choice of a parallel example doesn't seem sound, though. Isn't that title just a way to disambiguate from Mary Livingstone?—Kww(talk) 07:11, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    If we're going down this route, wouldn't the sometimes-proposed "Private Manning" be better? Adam Cuerden (talk) 08:48, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
  5. The article in its current state broadly complies with WP:NPOV, giving appropriate weight to the various events in Manning's life. The name "Bradley Manning" is widely known and was used by the subject while she engaged in many of the activities for which she is notable. Encyclopedic considerations require that we retain references to the name Bradley in the article. Because there is no "unsourced or poorly sourced" information to remove, and the article does not give undue weight to one POV, WP:BLP is not a compelling reason to change the title to "Chelsea Manning". MOS:IDENTITY addresses article titles, saying "disputes over how to refer to a person or group are addressed by policies such as Verifiability, Neutral point of view, and Article titles where the term appears in the title of an article." So that points to WP:TITLE, specifically WP:COMMONNAME, WP:POVTITLE, and WP:TITLECHANGES. WP:TITLECHANGES is interesting because it mandates that if no consensus can be achieved, the article should remain at the last uncontroversial title. However, it makes no sense to !vote one way or the other based on this section because that would change the degree of consensus. WP:POVTITLE mandates that the article title be compliant with WP:V and NPOV. Both Bradley and Chelsea are supported by reliable sources, satisfying WP:V. The bulk of the content concerns events in her life while she identified as Bradley, but new sources are generally using Chelsea, so I see no compelling argument against either on the basis of NPOV. That leaves WP:COMMONNAME, which specifically addresses the problem of name changes: "If the name of a person, group, object, or other article topic changes, then more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change." The yardstick I will be using in this case, and that I plan on using for future BLP RMs, is to use the new name if NPOV is satisfied and more than 10% of the content references reliable sources that identify the subject by the new name. By my count, Chelsea is supported by 477 words, Breanna by 359(!), and Bradley by 7645. That puts the new name at 6% of the article, and leads me to Oppose the move. I consider this to be a reflection of the notability of the subject during the span of time when she identified as Bradley, not a statement about the validity of her current identity. DPRoberts534 (talk) 07:07, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    But isn't your yardstick essentially ignoring the advice from WP:COMMONNAME that "more weight should be given" to recent sources? If most content is written from sources before the name change, "reflection of the notability" of Bradley Manning means that you're measuring sources just by volume, not taking recency into account at all. Diego (talk) 10:09, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    It does not ignore COMMONNAME. If I were giving equal weight to sources published after the name change, I would demand a plurality. The phrase "more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change" is not specific. It encompasses everything less than a relative majority but more than 0. I think 10% is generous. Considering all the hubbub surrounding the name change, I honestly expected to be !voting the other way. DPRoberts534 (talk) 16:20, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  6. * Strongly Oppose - Material redacted from this comment pursuant to discretionary sanctions. Do not restore except after following the appeal procedures listed there. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 17:29, 1 October 2013 (UTC) So, no way should we move this over to Chelsea Manning. He's not notable under that name,so moving to Chelsea Manning would also violate (for a number of reasons, WP:CRYSTAL, (hasn't happened yet, it's not a notable event, he's not notable under that name ). He IS notable under Bradley Manning.
    Leave it at Bradley Manning.  KoshVorlon. We are all Kosh   11:18, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    I don't want to put words into your mouth but could you clarify why you beleive genetics and not gender are important here? CombatWombat42 (talk) 15:31, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    Be careful to not switch sex (physical) and gender (psychological). She hasn't changed her gender, true -- she has seen herself as female for years. It is her sex she is seeking to change. Dralwik|Have a Chat 15:34, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    I would politely point out that comments of this sort - i.e. ones based on the poster's personal rejection of the legitimacy of trans identities - were explicitly discarded by the closing admins of the previous move request, and encourage that this precedent be followed again by whoever closes this. Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:11, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  7. Oppose During the trial she was "Bradley Manning". Since this article focuses on her pre-incarnation life (for which she is notable for) it should remain as Bradley. Future persons doing research will not find court, army or government documents relating to the case under her new name therefore it should remain as Bradley. WP:COMMONNAME states that we should use the name most referenced in reliable sources, just because those sources have now started to report on her transgender status and are using her new name should not outweigh those sources that are relevant to her actual notability. Bradley Manning is NOT notable for being a transgendered member of the army who is currently in jail, rather she is notable for the information leak, criminal charges and subsequent trial that took place. Mike (talk) 16:14, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    Your argument is a self defeating one because in a few months when all the news sources report her as a woman you will have to admit that then she is a woman. So she isn't a woman now, but she will be then? That really doesn't make sense. Konveyor Belt express your horror at my edits 16:30, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    Not quite. The sources used are in the past, what happens after the trial has no bearing on the event in which Bradley Manning is notable for. Mike (talk) 21:08, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  8. Oppose: when reliable sources confirm that Bradley Manning has changed legal name to Chelsea Manning the article can be moved to that title, and when equally reliable sources confirm that Bradley/Chelsea has had a change of "legal gender" all references to he/him/his in the article can be changed to she/her/hers. But not until then. Thomas.W talk to me 16:32, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    Hi Thomas, we have lots of people (dare I say most?) that we have an article under a different name than the legal name, and the legal name argument rarely comes up. Could you maybe explain why this case is different, or conversely why you think that biographies should be under the legal name? I have the feeling that the legal name argument might not been very well thought through, but I might be wrong, and a good answer might strengthen your argument and convince me or others. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 16:43, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    Certain judges have been known to block or even reverse trans people's name changes because they don't accept trans people's identities. A "legal name change" standard would create unnecessary barriers, and would be inconsistent with the fact that Wikipedia doesn't require "legal name" or "legal name changes" elsewhere. Ananiujitha (talk) 16:45, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  9. Oppose - There is a person. Her name is Chelsea Manning. There is an article. Its name is Bradley Manning. The names are different. Yes. This only reflects the fact that living people are not articles, and articles are not living people. The baseline for living people is that they are entitled to live, notorious or not, named or not. Each and every people whose death is depicted in the 'Collateral Murder' video was entitled to live (and nevertheless was shot to death). For articles, the rule is different, the topic must be notable... or the article is to be deleted. 1.4 million people hold the US top-secret security clearance. Assuming independency from gender, 3 per 1000 among them perceive themselves as transgender, i.e. roughly 4000 people. Did really someone intent to have an article or even a stub about each of them? In the Bradley Manning article, due weight must be given to trans-genderism (incidental) and to trans-loyalty (key point). That is the reason why the article's name must be chosen from the enrolment name, not from the gender name. Presenting Chelsea Manning as yet another Kristin Beck would be rather misleading. On the contrary, the notoriety of Chelsea Manning and her impact onto the real world occured from the 'Collateral murder' leak, that was comparable in importance to the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse leak. These key actions were done using the 'Bradley' enrolment name and are known under that name. Putting the focus on this 'Collateral murder' video and naming the article Bradley will hurt the feelings of some people in the military. Putting the foccus elsewhere and naming the article Chelsea would hurt the feelings of some people in the wide-world mankind. Guess what will be the academic choice of the western-male-white-thirty Encyclopedia? Pldx1 (talk) 16:37, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  10. Oppose. Everything notable about Manning (except for the gender change) occurred when he was called Bradley. Wikipedia isn't a directory; it only includes people with notability. Therefore, the article's title should emphasize the time period of Manning's notability. -- Ypnypn (talk) 17:54, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  11. Oppose. I said previously that I would support the move when the balance of significant coverage had switched over to the new name. (For my reasons why this is the only relevant criterion, see my post in the pronouns RFC.) However, on further consideration, I've realised that this is unlikely to ever happen. Yes, a majority of reliable sources decided to respect Manning's wishes in the immediate aftermath of her announcement. But that was a post-script to the events for which she will be remembered, the events which actually justify the existence of this article, events which all occurred under the name Bradley Manning. There will be the occasional news story about legal processes and her eventual release, but that is it. Her time in the spotlight is almost certainly over. And when people write about these events 20 years from now, Bradley is the name they will use.

    In that respect, this situation is highly comparable to the article on Alexis Reich / John Mark Karr, where a person announced a new gender identity and name long after the events for which they became notable. Though that case is much more egregious, because virtually all of our sources have chosen not to respect the name change, but many editors apparently think that the preferences of the subject are more important than our core policy of verifiability. – Smyth\talk 21:36, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

  12. Oppose per Ypnypn. AutomaticStrikeout (₵) 22:44, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    Although we have the article on the person who falsely admitted to killing JonBenet Ramsey titled as a woman named Alexis Reich, even though that person was notable as John Mark Karr, and just about every source refers to her as Karr. If we have that article at Reich over the much more well known Karr, to me that casts doubt on using the notability of Bradley versus Chelsea as rationale for resisting a move on transgendered articles. Truthfully, I'm very troubled by the Karr/Reich case, and its potential implications of whether this page should be Bradley or Chelsea. Dralwik|Have a Chat 22:53, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    In my opinion, the other one should be changed. AutomaticStrikeout (₵) 22:58, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    I came across the Alexis Reich case while doing some research on this one, and was struck by the lack of sourcing for the name, so I submitted an RM. The response was rather vicious - people claimed they felt physically ill as a result, and I was branded a raving transphobe. I nonetheless think that article should be moved, the title is inherently anti-reader, as any reader would not know to search for the name Alexis Reich. Once this one closes, we could put together some more sources and attempt another move on that one. I think they're quite different cases, actually.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:16, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    The redirect works fine, and "John Mark Karr" is mentioned in the article, so I don't see why search is an issue here. Kaldari (talk) 01:22, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
    The redirect argument is literally the worst argument ever possible in an RM. Watch carefully:
    The redirect works fine, and "Alexis Reich" is mentioned in the article, so I don't see why BLP is an issue here.
    See how easy that was? Anyway, we're off topic, we can discuss further at the Reich talk page.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:33, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
    Huh? Saying "we can redirect users who search for Karr to Reich" is a great response to "what if people search for Karr?" — whereas saying "we can redirect Reich to Karr" doesn't, IMO, make sense as response to "using 'Karr' as the tite seems to violate BLP"! -sche (talk) 01:52, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
  13. Oppose For the past week,‭ ‬Google News yields‭ ‬2,640‭ ‬results for‭ ‬“Bradley Manning‭”‬,‭ ‬ 910‭ ‬for‭ ‬“Chelsea Manning‭”‬.‭ ‬He‭ ‬was convicted‭ ‬of espionage‭ ‬as‭ ‬“Bradley‭ ‬Manning,‭”‬ and‭ ‬he is not‭ ‬likely to do‭ ‬anything‭ ‬under this new name that is anywhere near as notable.‭ ‬Despite all‭ ‬the‭ ‬recent gender bending excitement,‭ ‬more readers‭ ‬have‭ ‬been looking for‭ ‬“Bradly Manning‭”‬ than‭ ‬for‭ ‬“Chelsea Manning‭”‬ all along,‭ ‬according to‭ ‬Google Trends‭‬.‭ ‬With the novelty wearing off, his feminine side is already receiving noticeably less attention.‭ ‬Greatness Bites (talk) 13:26, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Neutral

  1. Having looked at news stories using Chelsea/Bradley over last month, it seems more are about the gender change and use Chelsea, and that those that only use Bradley tend to be only about the leaks, and those tend to be somewhat old news. So it really doesn't matter if the name is change to Chelsea or not. User:Carolmooredc 17:17, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  2. I'd prefer using Private Manning as a title, thus avoiding the problems of either of the other two choices. (With the obvious redirects). --SPhilbrick(Talk) 17:21, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Abstain

  1. The integrity of this discussion has been compromised and its legitimacy is in doubt:

    * The wording should be neutral so as to not unduly sway the !voting or the consensus building process. This obviously taints the result. As a point of comparison, imagine voting in a presidential election and the voting booth contained a long list of all the great things Obama is doing for America and how terrible McCain is (or vice versa). Such a scenario would be completely unacceptable. That's basically what we have here.

    * This should be an RfC so as to better reflect community consensus. MRs rarely attract outside opinions from uninvolved editors.

    * This is bad timing considering that ArbCom is in the middling of finalizing their decision. I expect that ArbCom will topic-ban the most disruptive editors. It should be easier for consensus building process to proceed after ArbCom completes. I suggest that this MR be closed down, and someone open an RfC with neutral wording after the ArbCom case completes. BTW, someone apparently moved my !vote. Please do not do that again. All editors should be allowed to !vote. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 12:10, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

* Comment * - I didn't realize my comment would cause such a shitstorm (over nothing). That definetly wasn't my intent, so I appologize for that. However, I stand by my comments as being valid and pertinent to the discussion.  KoshVorlon. We are all Kosh   16:37, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Redirects

  • Wikipedia has redirects. I think this enables us, and requires us, to consider which name is more respectful, at least as much as which name is more common. A redirect from a common but disrespectful name to a respectful name doesn't create many problems, except possibly technical ones. A redirect from a common and respectful name to a disrespectful name does imply disrespect. That may not be the intention, but what many readers may find is just as important as what the editors intend. Ananiujitha (talk) 20:31, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    Concur - reader confusion will be alleviated by the intro. I don't think anyone's seriously argued the redirect shouldn't exist, or that the name "Bradley" shouldn't be mentioned, we are an encyclopedia - but redirects and explanation should suffice - David Gerard (talk) 21:07, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    (edit conflict) No. Irrespective of whether the article ends up at Chelsea Manning or Bradley Manning. And I'm surprised David would suggest otherwise because this idea fundamentally misunderstands what Wikipedia is.
    Wikipedia is a project written with the intention of re-use. That's what the project is about: creating free encyclopaedia content that anyone can re-use. Redirects may not be present in re-uses.
    As an example, if you own a Mac, select and right click on the words "Cat Stevens" then select Look Up in Dictionary. You'll get a pop-up with the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article Cat Stevens. Now, do the same on the word "Yusuf Islam" and you will be told "No result found". This is because the article is at Cat Stevens whereas Yusuf Islam is just a redirect.
    That's why we we have the common name policy. And why redirects are not a substitute for properly policy-compliant article titles. --Tóraí (talk) 21:31, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    In the end, we aren't responsible for people coding shitty software when reusing us, and can't be responsible for trying to fix every bug in it. Adam Cuerden (talk) 07:59, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
    "Code"? "Software"? How does one "code" a printed book? Or a spoken article?
    Our primary aim is "to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop educational content under a free license or in the public domain, and to disseminate it effectively and globally." We are technology neutral in that effort. And we have no expectation of how content is going to be re-used or what technical environment it will be presented in. That's why we have policies such as we do (e.g. around the title of articles). --Tóraí (talk) 10:41, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Two versions of move request

Resolved - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:53, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.


It ain't pretty. Perhaps now you might understand why I was proposing that we work on a consensus version first before starting the RM. In any case, now that we're here, any objection to me continuing to edit my little "reasons" section up above? My preference, of course, would be to have a shared, and neutral header - neutral because I think we should consider opening this as an RFC to get broad participation on this rather important issue - but it may be hard to get there quickly during this discussion.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:46, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Not recommended Obiwan. Kww said that if you edit that section at all, he'd restore your block. Just let it go or propose changes here.--v/r - TP 21:48, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Yup, I just read that after my q above. I've asked Kww for clarification.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:50, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
I am just a passerby here, other than the fact that I did "vote" in the last RM (but will probably sit this one out) and I also just fixed minor grammatical errors in both yours and Josh's statements. (Hopefully nobody will object to that. It was the same error, in a sentence obviously cloned from one statement to the other.) As ugly as it is with the two statements, I would just leave it alone - even if you get clarification that you are permitted to work on it. This is the way it is, it is becoming "stable" this way, and changing the header statements at this point would threaten the legitimacy of a process whose legitimacy is already hanging by a thread, IMHO. And besides, when people go to the Table of Contents and click on "Survey" so they can "vote," the vast majority are probably never even going to see those statements, separated as they are from the "Survey" by those three hide/show boxes. That's probably not what you wanted to hear, but I think it's true. Neutron (talk) 22:39, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Well, the discussion before the move had at least 2 or three people suggesting we should start the move and tweak the header as we went. When I tried to do that, it started an edit war. I agree it's now water under the bridge, but I nonetheless never had the change to put together the case. Could someone please just remove my section in the header, and I will cast a !vote like the others? --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:49, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Maybe it would be better to not solicit edits to the header at this time, even if looks slightly awkward. __Elaqueate (talk) 23:03, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
I'm asking for my reasoning to be removed, so I can just cast a !vote - it's confusing people as it is now and is awkward. Could you remove it for me? I'm not allowed...--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:09, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
(Sigh) done. bd2412 T 23:18, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
It would have looked a little more co-operative if Obi-Wan Kenobi had shown some interest here in what Josh might have preferred, but you got someone to make the change you decided on, so I guess that's the way it goes. __Elaqueate (talk) 23:40, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Obi worked for a month gathering up things through consensus and made a bi-partisan move request from that, It is hard to assume good faith on Josh's part on the fact that he ignored it. Anyways this should be dropped. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Um, I've worked on this draft RM proposal for as long as it has existed and I am one of its major contributors of relevant sources. Obiwan was an active participant in discussions, but I don't really remember him collecting sources. I've not ignored anything; this is the agreed date and I actually waited quite a number of hours without seeing anyone else start it. We don't need a long-winded proposal anyway, just a brief statement per the instructions on creating RMs, and RM proposals are not supposed or required to be "neutral" or (co)-written by those opposed to the proposal. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:01, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
I think Josh' preference was clear, given he edit warred to remove all traces of my contributions, which were really just refinements of his own. It's water under the bridge now anyway.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:45, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
I have created an RM closely following the instructions on how to do so. If you had proposed those changes to the rationale in a civil way instead of edit-warring, completely against procedure, I could probably have agreed to most of those changes (although I think some sentences were unnecessary long and complicated). If the matter was that you wanted your name in the proposal section, somewhat surprising to me as a proposer of the opposite of the view you advocated last time, I would have no problem with you adding your signature to such a proposal after having discussed possible amendments. If you had behaved in a more constructive way, all this trouble would have been unnecessary. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:04, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Sources

  • Question. What constitutes a "source"? Is an article from a newspaper a source, or is it the newspaper itself? Eg the NYT may have written 500 articles about Bradley Manning and 10 about Chelsea Manning after the switch. Yes, I'm aware we should give more weight to newer sources. I've asked this question before and had no response. It would be helpful to put things in context.Two kinds of pork (talk) 22:00, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
It's an interesting case. In putting together the evidence, we generally considered that a "source" was a newspaper, which has certain editorial standards for how they refer to someone or something. Now as it turns out, even newspapers which have put forth strong editorial standards calling her Chelsea have nonetheless been "caught" using Bradley, even a month after the name change. As such, we will eventually have to revert to commonname - e.g. in the majority of materials from high quality sources, what do they use? I note that encyclopedia brittanica moved to Chelsea, which I think is significant, and many papers came out with guidelines suggesting use of Chelsea. It will be interesting to look at this issue in a year or two, and see if "Chelsea" sticks. If it doesn't, it's possible COMMONNAME could revert back to Bradley - an example of same is John Mark Karr, where she changed her name, but a few years later, the name change was forgotten. This is unlikely to happen in this case however.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:05, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

No SNOW close, please

It's not quite snowing, but it's definitely a solid rain here in favor of NO SNOW CLOSE of this discussion. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:18, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I would like to request that this discussion not be subject to a SNOW close. Everyone who wants to express their view should have the usual time to do so. Cheers! bd2412 T 21:54, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Seconded - David Gerard (talk) 21:55, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Thirded. It will be beneficial to all to see the blizzard last the full seven days. And move on with the fullest of consensus. --Tóraí (talk) 22:07, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
What is SNOW?CombatWombat42 (talk) 22:15, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
See WP:SNOW. Monty845 22:19, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Many thanks, not sure why that couldn't be linked in the section title. CombatWombat42 (talk) 22:26, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  • I'd SNOW close it earlier than that. The debate has been constructive and there's very clear consensus to move the article to Chelsea Manning and I say that as the only person at this time to oppose the move. Given that the consensus is clear, I don't think there's any real value to keeping the move request going when the downside is it exploding into an unpleasant situation again. I believe consensus is clearly established and on the basis of community consensus, we should quit while we're ahead, change the title and let everyone move on (with the exception of the pending arbitration matter, obviously)CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 22:24, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Also, those who have been involved in the article should have responded already. For what it's worth, not everyone needs to vote. Wikipedia is not a democracy, so there is not a final tally of any kind and we need not prolong voting when it is all but over. Consensus has made itself quite clear here. Konveyor Belt express your horror at my edits 22:31, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
We need to give it some time to see if the current trend holds. If after a day or two its 100 to still only 1, then sure, but given the past controversy, best to be cautious. Monty845 22:34, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Yes, there's a chance that "support" !voters were waiting to cast there !ballot. Whereas "oppose" !voters may come to the table later. So let it run. There's no rush and a full, clear, indisputable consensus is better than WP:SNOW any day of the week. --Tóraí (talk) 22:39, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

I think if we're still running at a roughly 36:1 ratio in a day or two we can probably declare that the Process Gods have accepted our tribute and blessed us with rain, or whatever. Phil Sandifer (talk) 00:14, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

  • I agree that the discussion should be left open for the usual seven days. During the first move discussion, several users complained about process not being followed, or actions being taken too quickly. -sche (talk) 01:04, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Why would anyone close this per WP:SNOW? Just because there's an initial flurry of support now doesn't mean it's going to remain so one-sided throughout. The original RM attracted a broad variety of opinions on the subject. Kurtis (talk) 01:35, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree that this should just be left to run it's course, we're only doing this weeks down the line because of the impatience and hubris of the initial move, so let's learn the lessons, take our time, and leave no doubt that the consensus is solid. --Jeude54cartes (talk) 09:47, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Concerns about whether the RM should have been framed neutrally or not

  1. Comment The RfC is not neutrally worded and thus its legitimacy is compromised. I suggest someone just closing this and starting another RfC that is neutrally worded. Also, this is bad timing considering that ArbCom is in the middling of finalizing their decision. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:53, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    This move got started before a definite RfC was agreed on, so I feel editors should be free to alter the RfC to make it more neutral. As well, ArbCom had the opportunity to block a move before the resolution of their case, and had no consensus to do so. Dralwik|Have a Chat 21:10, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    I agree if you feel that this is non neutral then feel free to alter it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:13, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    Is it really worth stirring up a hornets' nest over the wording of the RfC RM when the result looks a foregone conclusion? AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:17, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    The discussion is tainted, we need a firm consensus not someone down the line going at "but josh and obi edit warred and so..." - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:18, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    I really did not want to get involved in this page, but this is not an RfC, it is a Requested move, and it is not supposed to be "neutral"; the instructions for creating a requested move specifically ask the requesting party to make their case in favor of the move. Cheers! bd2412 T
    See WP:RM/CM and pay attention to this part: "Note: Nominators should usually not add a separate bullet point to support their nomination,...".TMCk (talk) 22:52, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    I'd say that anyone commenting here knows "this is the discussion about whether it's 'Bradley Manning' or 'Chelsea Manning'" and that's the entire important information. I don't think the precise wording in the header is going to make any difference - David Gerard (talk) 21:24, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    It's true that RMs (as opposed to RFCs) do not have to be neutrally worded, but in that case the requester should not be included in the survey of !votes. StAnselm (talk) 21:29, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    This is too long a discussion to be in the voting section. Would someone care to move it to the discussion section? bd2412 T 21:36, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    Regardless of whether this is an RfC or MR, the principle is the same. The wording should be neutral so as to not unduly sway the !voting or the consensus building process. Imagine voting in a presidential election and the voting booth contained a long list of all the great things Obama is doing for America and how terrible McCain is (or vice versa). Such a scenario would be completely unacceptable. That's basically what we have here. Further, it should be an RfC so as to better reflect community consensus. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:13, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    Um, the whole point of a move proposal under the RM procedure is to make an argument in favour of a change, not to be "neutral" on the question. As it happens, the proposal is actually fairly neutrally worded in its summary of the related evidence. Advocating a particular change is required. Editors opposed to the proposal can state their opposition in the oppose or discussion sections. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:30, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    @A Quest For Knowledge, it sounds as if your disagreement is with the RM process itself. If you think that RM discussions should be presented in a different way, that is best taken up at WP:VPP. bd2412 T 02:10, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    Given that the last discussion was so contentious that it required an ArbCom case to sort through and that several editors face topic-bans and admins face desysopping, one would hope that we follow best practices. Unfortunately, since the legitimacy of the discussion is now is serious disrepute, I fear that we're just guaranteeing that the matter be left unresolved and we'll just have a third discussion on how to handle the article title. Is that what everyone wants? I don't think so, but that is the risk that we run if the MR continues down its current path. So I guess what I'm saying is do we want to resolve the content dispute, or prolong it? The only way to resolve it is to do it the right way. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:54, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    Asserting that "the legitimacy of the discussion is now is serious disrepute" is a serious charge. Do you have any evidence for this, besides your personal opinion? bd2412 T 03:53, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    Sure. If you want to search through the WP:V talk page archives regarding "truth, not verifiability", you'll find that than entire RfC was rejected in part because the wording wasn't neutral, and the wording wasn't nearly as biased as this MR. We spent several months, perhaps close to a year, trying to build consensus. Sorry to be the one to break the bad news. Perhaps this issue isn't as contentious as "truth, not verifiability", who knows, but again, we should be following best practices. HTH. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 04:32, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    Note: I had been hoping to pull together a consensus wording for the RM, and to issue it as an RFC, but I didn't act early enough, so I accept some blame; I should have proposed this earlier, but I wasn't paying attention to the ticking clock (and it started to look like Arbcom was going to force an extension). I think for an RM like this one, it definitely would have been better to have each side put together a support/oppose paragraph, word the whole thing as neutrally as possible, and set it up as a formal RFC (but still just run for 7 days). But it's too late for that now; I think people are !voting based on the evidence, not on the framing statement. Let's see where consensus lies, but I suspect it will be pretty overwhelming in favor of Chelsea, even though we tried hard to put together fair and even evidence from both sides.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 04:57, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    Re "an entire RfC was rejected in part because the wording wasn't neutral, and the wording wasn't nearly as biased as this MR": as has been pointed out, RFCs are supposed to be neutrally worded, while RMs are supposed to make a case to move the article. I don't think it would have been necessary for this RM to include a rationale at all if including a rationale hadn't been required, but a rationale was required, so one was included. :) If you think RMs should be held differently, and more like RFCs, WP:VPP and WT:RM seem like the best places to propose that. -sche (talk) 05:27, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  2. The RfC is fundamentally flawed. Let's wait for ArbCom to do something before making the situation more intractable. Collect (talk) 23:42, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    First, this is not an RfC. This is an RM, a different process. Second, ArbCom does not settle content disputes. Nothing ArbCom does will resolve the dispute at issue here. bd2412 T 00:11, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    Also, it has been agreed by consensus for about a month that we would have this RM starting on this date, this has been well known to everyone. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:13, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    Could you maybe point to which fundaments of the RM are flawed? It's rather hard to argue with, or understand the reasoning for something so vague. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 08:12, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Looking at the collapsed sections at the top, this is the least neutral worded RFC I've ever seen on WP and should be scrapped right away and replaced in favour for a neutral one that doesn't mentioned anything about this one at all. This one is pushing a certain result under false pretense. One editor already retracted their support vote due to this. Some uninvolved and "detached" editor should phrase a new RFC. TMCk (talk) 22:32, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  • See bd2412's post above in the 'neutral' section [16]- ' this is not an RfC, it is a Requested move, and it is not supposed to be "neutral"; the instructions for creating a requested move specifically ask the requesting party to make their case in favor of the move.' AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:39, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

People forget too often here that This is an RM, not an RFC. RM's are definitely not supposed to be neutral, rather the opposite. we shouldn't throw away the entire discussion because the proposal actually follows the rules. Konveyor Belt express your horror at my edits 22:42, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

  • The "separate bullet point" refers to a separate !vote, which is why Josh Gorand's vote was discounted above. It has nothing to do with the content of the proposal itself. bd2412 T 22:54, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Josh moved the entire discussion, which was just a draft before that. All of this is besides the point, which is that this is an RM, not an RFC, and the RM instructions specifically state that the nominator should provide their reasons why the move should be made. There is no call to present an RM in neutral terms. It is, by nature, a form of advocacy, just like an AfD. bd2412 T 23:05, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
I agree in principle but I was going to propose (didn't have time in the heat of the action) that we frame this as an RFC instead of as an RM, for exactly this reason. I don't know if it's worth it now, but at the beginning that was my thought, that this should be broadly advertised via the RFC process and have a neutral statement (or, alternately, each side would put forth their best arguments) - in order to have a clean process. But it's probably too late for that now.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:54, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
It has been agreed by consensus for about a month, well known to everyone and especially you and me, that a Requested Move would start on 30 September. There was ample time for any editor wishing to discuss procedural questions (I don't really see why a requested move should not follow the requested move procedure that we used last time and that is always used), and also for any editor wishing to prepare any other proposal. I made this move proposal late in the day, on the day agreed on for a month. I don't see why we need a more complicated procedure, when the evidence now is that clear. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:21, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
I would say that this feels unnecessarily rules-lawyerish and like an attempt to silence one of the more vocal participants in the discussion. I recognize that this is not the intent at all, but it does kind of come off that way - I hardly think the entire process would be gravely tainted if Josh's support were also registered with a bullet point. Indeed, in quickly evaluating numerical consensus I would suspect it's easier to not have to remember to add one more !vote from the person proposing the move than it is to do it this way. Is this really such a big deal that we need to be slapping Josh around over it? Phil Sandifer (talk) 05:56, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Leaving Josh's "separate bullet point" struck though at the top of the "Support" section is confusing. Anyone not reading all the way down here could be left with the impression that the RM nominator might have changed their mind. Can we either let Josh remove it entirely as unnecessary and confusing, or add a parenthetical note explaining the strike? -- ToE 14:02, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Done. -- ToE 18:11, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Comment: I am inclined to move the first two "Neutral" !votes by User:A Quest For Knowledge and User:Collect to this section, as they are addressed solely to the process, and not to the merits of the discussion. The third and fourth !votes by User:Carolmooredc and User:Sphilbrick are examples of !votes that actually weigh in on the topic at hand. Disputes about whether this should be conducted as an RfC rather than an RM (or disagreeing with the rules governing the RM process itself) should be limited to discussion sections. bd2412 T 17:43, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think that's a good idea bd. Such a move will likely cause much more drama than it will do good. I trust that the closing admins will take such issues into consideration, and moving these votes is very likely to stir up a storm, that we can very well do without. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 17:47, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
I grant that in the great scheme of things, my concern here is not particularly important. bd2412 T 17:56, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Keilana as closing admin

Keilana has recused herself

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Keilana has been proposed as the closing admin for this move request, as per this discussion. However, her comments on Wikipedia Weekly on YouTube suggest that she strongly favors one side over another in this dispute. Therefore, while I do not doubt Keilana's integrity, I think that it would be more appropriate to find somebody who has not yet commented on this case.

Unfortunately, links to YouTube are blacklisted on Wikipedia, but anyone can find them easily. The first video is titled "Wikipedia Weekly #99: Bradley-Chelsea-Bradley Manning", and the relevant discussion takes place over the first 16 minutes. The second video is titled "Wikipedia Weekly #100 - Century Mark", and the relevant discussion begins after 13 minutes. Edge3 (talk) 00:25, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Note: I just learned how to circumvent the blacklist on YouTube links. Video 1 (first 16 minutes) and Video 2 (after 13 minutes). Edge3 (talk) 00:35, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

ruhroh. I'm going to have to agree with you - she has publicly come down very hard on the side of Chelsea. The discussion will almost certainly go that way anyway, but in the interest of making this a clean close, we should consider another closer. @David Levy:, what do you think?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 00:31, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm not a fan of preselected closers. While it may sometimes be needed in extreme cases, (usually triumvirate closes) it should be avoided whenever possible. As far as I know it hasn't blown up as a big issue yet, but giving anyone the ability to choose the closer (and it is often the proponents of the RFC who choose) will likely end in a major controversy one of these days. (no reason to believe it will be this time, but still) Monty845 00:50, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
A fluffernutter is a sandwich! suggested posting to WP:AN. That sounds good to me. __Elaqueate (talk) 00:55, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
The only issue I see here is that we've already preselected Keilana as the closer, so it's hard for us to cancel that appointment without consensus. Edge3 (talk) 01:05, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
To be clear, this was not an "appointment" - we discussed some possible closing admins who were respected for closing contentious discussions; Keilana's name came up, and she volunteered, which is commendable. However, nothing is set in stone here. bd2412 T 01:22, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
(e/c) To the extent that we preselected her, we selected her as a closer (to be helped by two others), rather than as the closer. I think it would be appropriate for her to remove herself (or for us to change and not use her), not because she has done anything wrong or would be unable to close the discussion fairly, but simply because this matter is very contentious and would not be helped by the perception that there was procedural impropriety in the close. (Indeed, it might be argued that the first effort to move [[Bradley Manning]] to [[Chelsea Manning]] failed because of the perception that there was procedural impropriety in the move.) -sche (talk) 01:23, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

At Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Manning move_discussion in progress: uninvolved admins needed, I have asked uninvolved admins to indicate their willingness to participate in a triumvirate to close this move request. -sche (talk) 01:23, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Being a contributor to The Wikipedia Weekly, The Wikipedia Signpost and so on shouldn't disqualify an editor from closing a discussion. The close is based on policy and consensus, not on the editor's personal views. Also, it doesn't appear that the close will be controversial considering the vote currently being 40–1, so it probably won't matter that much anyway. Josh Gorand (talk) 01:18, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

this has nothing to do with contributions to the signpost, it has to do with the fact that she has clearly stated a preference for one side of the discussion on a public YouTube video attached to her Wikipedia screenname, so in a way she is involved. When choosing potential closers we searched for ones who hadn't yet weighed in anywhere on this topic - now that we know she has, we should choose another or ask for another volunteer. Note that I voted for her earlier, but now this has been revealed I don't think it would be proper. Watch the video so you see the strength of her preference.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:34, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm proud of my ability to stay impartial in controversial situations, including the other RfCs I've closed. I had very strong opinions about the Muhammad images and Jerusalem cases, and in fact disagreed with the consensus in one of those situations. I have also been in similar situations with AfDs, where I have ascertained a consensus that I personally disagree with. If there's a consensus that I'm unsuitable, that's fine, but I think that given my ability to read consensus despite my personal feelings and the fact that two other admins would be involved, with their own opinions (let's be honest - no one has no opinion whatsoever on this topic), I would be an acceptable closer. But it's not up to me. Keilana|Parlez ici 01:45, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

But you've already made your opinion known. So if, by some miracle of contraryness, this thing comes to another no consensus and you have to decide, then if you go with Chelsea, you'll be accused of bias, and if you close in favor of Bradley, you'll be accused for overcompensating for the perception of bias. Either way, you're now controversial because of the video.--v/r - TP 02:01, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
@TParis, maybe it is best if we let arbcom select uninvolved closing admin canadates. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:09, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Keilana seems to be well suited to doing the close and if joined by two others I think it will be fine. Sportfan5000 (talk) 02:48, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

If you were the last admin alive, I'd have no doubt you would be able to judge the discussion fairly without regard to your personal opinion on the matter. However this isn't the case and your opinion is now known. I didn't watch the video FWIW. My view is that you should recuse as the closer.Two kinds of pork (talk) 03:04, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Since a few people think I should recuse, I will. That's fine. Keilana|Parlez ici 03:20, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Object I don't think an editor who curses and calls people bigots who disagree with her opinion on this move (and I favor the move) should come anywhere near to closing it. Actually, I find it amazing she is an admin at all. After watching the video linked to above, I think she's an example of the worst in unobjectivity at wikipedia. Find someone else. μηδείς (talk) 03:02, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

You know, I'm somehow not convinced this is going to be a contentious close... Phil Sandifer (talk) 04:29, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Choosing a closing admin panel

  • I would be willing to join with 2 other admins and come to a closure opinion, if agreeable to those discussing the issue here. I have played no part in the discussion and in fact have avoided reading any of it, as far as I am able (though obviously as an active reader of WP:AN and WP:ANI I'm aware that this has been going on for a little while!). Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 10:20, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  • PS: I do not have this talk page on my watchlist. I'd rather not see edits popping up as a drip-feed on my watchlist, preferring to come to the whole thing cold (if I come at all.) Please if anyone has questions that need my response, wikilink my user name so I get a notification. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 10:59, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
I have no objection to User:Kim Dent-Brown's offer. bd2412 T 15:55, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Me neither, no objections from me.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:01, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
No objections here as well. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:08, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
No objection from me, either. Now we just need to find two more. C'mon, admins, don't you want people to fill your talk page with shouts that you made the "wrong close!!" for the next month (no matter what close you make)? ;-p -sche (talk) 18:17, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't matter who is on the admin panel, Obi-Wan Kenobi can use the force to get the outcome he prefers. Count Iblis (talk) 02:06, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Whoa where did this come from? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:08, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
These aren't the admins you're looking for. You can go about your business.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:11, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
A bit off-topic, but I find myself spending altogether too much time on this issue. I am unwatching all pages having anything to do with this case. Cheers! bd2412 T 02:14, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Omg, I should have thought of that. Sign me up. I'm outta here. Ping me if y'all need the force. !plonk!--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:39, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
I believe this thread will continue to be smoother than the last move. The August move discussion: you'll never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. Still, we must be cautious. Dralwik|Have a Chat 02:18, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Policy on name changes in general?

Looking through the various applicable policies, I didn't notice anything explicitly addressing how name changes should be dealt with as a general issue (independently of any gender issues this particular one is enmeshed in). If Wikipedia had existed at the time Cassius Clay changed his name to Muhammad Ali, at what point in the process would the change have been applied to the article? Would it happen as soon as he said that this was the name he wanted to be known as, or would it have to wait until more people knew him as that than his former name? *Dan T.* (talk) 02:27, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

It depends on the article and prior precedent. Articles for royalty are often changed immediately upon their assuming a new title, while other articles will have a lag between the name change and the move taking place on Wikipedia. Edge3 (talk) 02:36, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
WP:AT states that when a name changes, you give priority to sources *after* the name change in order to determine the common name (for obvious reasons). That said, we do not always change the article titles after an "official" name changes - Cat Stevens being the most famous example, but Ivory Coast is another well known one. There are many other people who have changed their name, but we generally don't rename article until they are commonly known by that new name. some proposals to tweak this are at the talk page of WP:AT, which would balance subjects preference against commonname - I personally would like to see one of these pass, so that you wouldn't need 51% of sources in order to move to a new name.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 05:23, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Most notable under *name*?

  • I would suggest avoiding such a standard. I think listing people under the names they're most notable under could be deeply, deeply, wrong in certain cases. Not just the disrespect for Chelsea Manning, but also, let's consider the disrespect that would mean for David Reimer, since he was known as "Brenda" at the time of Money's work, and was described as "Joan" in early works. I suspect his case is now better known as the David Reimer case than the John/Joan case, but if it weren't, it would still be wrong to title his article "Joan" or "Brenda"... Ananiujitha (talk) 03:23, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
      • Virtually all sources mention "Bradley" because that's the common name known and used by readers. There may be a time that "Chelsea" can be used without an explanation that the new preferred name is the same person people known as the common name.

It's incorrect to say that the transition name is currently the common name. Notice that there are sources that use only Bradley and none that use only Chelsea. --DHeyward (talk) 04:04, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

There is misinformation here. There have been several sources that have run articles that mention Chelsea Manning alone at this point. Also, a clear majority of reputable sources use Chelsea as the primary reference. __Elaqueate (talk) 09:08, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Correct that there are a few that have used only "Chelsea" and as MOS use "Chelsea" after informing the reader that they will be using the new name instead of the common name. Just from memory, I don't recall news sources doing, rather reliable third parties or press releases. Contrast this with established common names that require no introduction that the article will using the non-common name for the piece. New name introductions are true for people with routine name changes due to marriage/divorce as well as transgender name changes. Julia Serano for instance has a "Born as" name but it is neither in our article or any reference. We could add it, and even create/add a redirect, but it misses the point that her name is the common name and other names are irrelevant in her case. At some point, when a name becomes common, there is no need for a "and to refresh your memory as to who this person was" type of statement that is currently in majority use for "Chelsea Manning". In six months, if the introduction is still necessary, I would think the common name argument is rather weak. --DHeyward (talk) 22:34, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Some news sources use Chelsea Manning in references without introductory phrasing or mention of the name "Bradley" at all. That happens now. It happened over two weeks ago. In hard news stories about spying and here, too. There are many people using introductory phrasing still, but it's not fair to say it's always used at this point. __Elaqueate (talk) 13:14, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
  • I don't see anything wrong with the "most notable under name" standard, at least as a factor toward selecting the article name, along with WP:COMMONNAME (which still does not support "Chelsea"). WP:DIGNITY does not automatically apply, as I know at least two "completed" female-to-male trans people who refer to their female self in the third person. It might conceivably apply if Manning made it clear she does not want the name "Bradley" used, which she hasn't. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:38, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
  • I don't think "most notable under name" even means anything. Best known under, maybe, was known as Bradley while she did the things she is most famous for, possibly, but "most notable under the name" has no meaning. Sloppy language tends not to be very problematic, but in this case, by using notable here, it implies that the notability guideline has anything to do with it, which is patently false. The notability guideline only deals with criteria for inclusion, not article titles which we are discussing here. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 06:52, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Two people are both best notable known under the name "President Bush", yet neither article use that as title. "most notable under name" standard has thus some very clear faults when dealing with living people, mostly because they continue to live on. Using common sense, I would only use the "most notable under name" standard for people who no longer is alive. Belorn (talk) 12:45, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Survey, poll, discussion, what is this?

concerns addressed
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I'm somewhat confused by the instructions. They read: "Add # Support or # Oppose on a new line in the appropriate section below, followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using. Please remember that this survey is not a substitute for discussion, and please provide a brief explanation for your recommendation. Responses to statements made in the survey sections should be restricted to the discussion section." If this is not a poll but a discussion, then why do I have to add a # Support or # Oppose, and why does my explanation need to be brief? If it is a poll, why is an explanation required? Should there be discussion? Or is the idea here that we just voice our opinion without talking to eachother here? If so, where should discussion take place? What is the validity of a poll/survey? How will it be used in determining consensus? For something that had a month op preparation time, this seems rather ill thought out. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 07:23, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

It's pretty much the standard RM format (albeit split into two halves, which I don't really favor). No one is going to enforce brevity (note Obiwankenobi's contribution, which is brief only compared to the US Constitution), and you should feel free to engage any voter in discussion (note that I've responded to SmokeyJoe above, because I thought his idea needed probing).—Kww(talk) 07:31, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
It's not helpful at all. Wikipedia:Requested moves has a whole lot of suggested formats, and none of them include the instruction to be brief. StAnselm (talk) 07:41, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
I have removed the instruction about being brief. StAnselm (talk) 07:43, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
It was added here by User:BD2412. I have posted a note on BD2412's talk page, asking where the text came from. StAnselm (talk) 07:54, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
I replied there - I don't remember, as I copied it from another discussion somewhere long ago, and have had it sitting on a notepad for occasions like this. However, I do think "brief" is generally good advice, even if likely to be ignored. Cheers! bd2412 T 11:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Add back dates?

I don't know why dates are deemed as unhelpful. Somehow, any administrator would have trouble reading 200 or 400 votes in one day or two. --George Ho (talk) 17:59, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

This requested move must be divided into 3 sections, support, oppose, and neutral. Each section should have its own list. With dates added, the move will have 4 sections, and the sections separated by date will be treated as separate lists. Vote #34 should be treated as the 34th vote, not the first of a new sequence. Georgia guy (talk) 18:02, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
In the prior RM, dates were added due to huge amount of votes. Why can't this RM? Also, how do dates affect significantly a number of votes? --George Ho (talk) 18:23, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
I agree with Kww: if it later proves necessary to add the dates, we can add them; for now, eh... some people have objected to them, so leave them out; they're a bikeshed anyway. -sche (talk) 18:31, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Because they chop discussion flow and make it very confusing when people reply to and discuss entries. If we have to chop it because of size problems, fine, but let's not do so in advance of trouble.—Kww(talk) 18:02, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Navigation issue is irrelevant then? If so, would replying to a vote be more difficult without dates? --George Ho (talk) 18:07, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
I for one don't think it's all too troublesome when the counts get messed up. It's not a count anyway, and shouldn't have been there in the first place IMO, but opinions differ there. If our closing admins can't get a rough impression of whether there is a strong numerical lean either way in a discussion, or if it is roughly equal, we have bigger problems than the vote tally being broken IMO. At the same time, I feel this is a bit of a bikeshed. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 18:09, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Agreed, I find the numbers dates here even a bit confusing in this case anyways. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:10, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
So then let's remove them. I'm the one who got them started in the first place, so someone perusing the discussion could quickly calculate the support/oppose ratio. Dralwik|Have a Chat 02:07, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Sorry I meant to say dates as that's what this refers to. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:10, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
As for the numbers I feel it makes the posts easier to find while adding the dates that break up the sections add to the confusion. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:11, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

A vote on whether to recognise someone's gender transition

Enough. Stay on the RM, not meta issues. We probably do need to have a policy discussion on when we do and when we do not accept self-identification, but this doesn't seem to be the place.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Just to note that we are in fact here again having a vote on whether to recognise someone's gender transition (what looks like a vote, walks like a vote and talks like a vote is a vote, even if Wikipedia editors often insist we are not voting). This was an issue brought up in press coverage and that provoked significant negative reactions in external media (see eg. [17] and [18]) and social media the last time. Having initiated this vote this time, I would like to note that I was and am very much uncomfortable with the fact that we are holding such a vote in the first place and that I don't think it's ethical or compliant with how we ought to treat biographies of living people, but alas, this is how things apparently works on this website, for now, and thus the only available method of getting the article moved from Bradley Manning to Chelsea Manning. Josh Gorand (talk) 22:44, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Its not a vote (WP:NOTAVOTE), we are discussing it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:46, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
I know Wikipedia editors prefer to say that, but this is not how it looks to the outside world, which was the point brought up here. Josh Gorand (talk) 22:52, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Your framing is not helpful. What does it mean for us to "recognize" the transition? Surely we must treat it fairly in the article, but is choosing to retain the old name, the name manning was most notable for, refusing to recognize the change? I'd say it is not. Now I also happen to support renaming the article, but I'm opposed to making the name of the article some symbol of our opinion on gender identity. Further, raising your above point here, and now, looks unlikely to change the outcome above, but is likely to inflame the debate... why? Monty845 22:58, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
This is the same process Wikipedia would do for any other article title change, the reason why Wikipedia made the news in the first place was because we jumped into it head first, something a neutral encyclopedia shouldn't do. Had we waited a bit we would have most likely changed the article to Chelsea without a ripple and none of this would have happened. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:00, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Josh, this is an incredibly lame thing to bring up at this point in the debate. This is our chance to demonstrate to the "outside" world that we aren't voting on Manning's IDENTITY, we are discussing the TITLE OF THEIR ARTICLE. THEIR IDENTITY is not the same as THE TITLE OF THEIR ARTICLE. Why don't you try repeating that, 100 times, and posting it on all of the social media, until those outside get a clue (maybe we need clue-bats?) that that is how things work here. And yet, you here open up a section saying that we are, in fact, voting on whether we "recognize" Manning's gender transition, which is a massive steaming pile of horsesh*t - that is not what is happening here. We make NO CLAIMS as to Manning's identity, we are only trying to find the best title for the readers. I think y'all need to stop worrying so much about external media, they are very fickle - one moment they love wikipedia, they other they hate us. We should just keep slogging on and ignore them, especially those who are too lazy to study how wikipedia actually works and instead just go by their "impressions" --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:10, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
I am not interested in defending Wikipedia against the (correct, IMO) perception[19] held by many in the wider world regarding its treatment of trans people. I am just stating for the record, in a debate with many internal and external readers that might be important for future considerations on how to improve the situation, that I and many other people consider the requirement to have this de facto vote to be disrespectful to Manning and other trans people and to be very problematic, and that those reading this page should be aware of this concern by many people including some of its participants. I'd rather record being uncomfortable with this here in the discussion section than the proposal section. Josh Gorand (talk) 23:49, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Then allow me to record, for the record, my discomfort with you using this discussion page to grandstand for the media and attempt to personally cleanse yourself of the dirtiness that is wikipedia. Wow. I hope you realize, Josh, this isn't all about you. It's quite easy to point the finger of blame at wikipedia when it produces a result you don't like, but those critics in the media who dislike the idea of a consensus-based discussion on a controversial issue would best come up with a better solution, or just go away and stop whinging, as I'm not interested in their complaints about our processes unless they have a better idea, and then show up and help make it happen.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 00:01, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
As many here are aware, it was believed until the last attempt to move this article to Chelsea Manning, that Wikipedia already had a policy requiring us to respect the latest expressed gender self-identification of an article subject. This was for many years the practice at this project, but the last debate on Manning's article seems to have ended that. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:27, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
This is obviously a controversial issue, what do you propose besides a vote? CombatWombat42 (talk) 22:59, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
This whole situation is disrespectful to Chelsea Manning, and to trans people generally. To me that looks like a good reason to reconsider the practices that create this situation. There could be a stronger emphasis on respect and on harm, which could avoid similar situations and perhaps help with other unrelated issues involving biographies. Ananiujitha (talk) 23:21, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
There a reason why we are restarting heated debates here? The move discussion is ongoing its how Wikipedia works please WP:DROPTHESTICK. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Huh? What does your comment have to do with anything I've said? Ananiujitha (talk) 23:28, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
No, this is not about "recognising someone's gender transition". That's bullshit. We are deciding on an article title. People making declarative statements that "she is a a woman" or "he is a man" miss the entire point. No one here knows. The only thing we know is that Manning has requested that people use "Chelsea" and feminine gender terms when we refer to her. That's it. Affirming her gender is not Wikipedia's place nor do any editors have the expertise to do so. None. Whether her statement "I am female" bears out as true or false is irrelevant and not part of the discussion. If an editor thinks they can absolutely affirm her gender, I would ask why they have violated her doctor/patient privilege. Chelsea is in the unusual position where she can't express her desired gender identity publicly so she made a statement about how she feels and a request for a name and pronouns. That's it. Our decision is only whether acknowledging or not acknowledging that request is harmful and weigh that against encyclopedic value that such a decision carries. No more, no less. If editors feel this is a crusade for transgender rights or that a decision, one way or the other, indicates how WP views transgender people or transgender topics, they probably shouldn't be here. This is one article about one person, not a referendum on acknowledging any transition, transitions in general or anything else other than the name of this article. There are many, many views on what "I am female" means and it is not going to be solved here or help the debate to affirm or deny it and it's completely irrelevant to the title of the article. --DHeyward (talk) 00:10, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Someone collapse this. It has zero valueTwo kinds of pork (talk) 00:05, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Other comments, archived comments, and comments on the discussion guidelines

Please see Talk:Bradley Manning/October 2013 move request/Comments unrelated to evidence. Thank you!

Older discussion on the sources only

Older discussion on the sources only

Time

In this blog from fair.org Peter Hart quotes a Time magazine piece dated 30 September 2013 "Unchecked Aggression" by Mark Thompson. The graphic provided in the blog and the quote use "Bradley" exclusively (the blog uses Manning while "Time" uses "Bradley"). The quote is: "Here is the world's worst-kept secret: The military's security-clearance system is utterly, tragically broken. Army Major Nidal Hasan, armed with a secret clearance and an FN 5.7 semiautomatic pistol, showed warning signs well before he killed 13 people at Fort Hood in 2009. Army Private First Class Bradley Manning, arrested in 2010, and NSA contractor Edward Snowden, a fugitive since June, had top-secret clearances before they absconded with the nation's secrets and shared them with the world." The graphic provided is captioned "Bradley Manning." I can't get past the paywall at "Time" to check it though. --DHeyward (talk) 02:32, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

AP

AP has a number of hits across all major sources with this title "'Today' show rebooting with Daly, studio revamp" written by AP reporter David Bauder. Definitely "Bradley Manning" and even using "avoided" terms. Google the title for a ton of hits that are all the same but sourced to AP. Here is one (12 September 2013) but it's also hosted at AP.org though it wouldn't load.

Manning passage:

"Today" is devoting itself to a mission statement that involves substance, making connections with viewers and offering people who watch something uplifting, Turness said. She pointed to stories in recent weeks involving Bradley Manning's sex change, interrogation footage of Cleveland kidnapper Ariel Castro and Matt Lauer's interviews with Paula Deen and Alex Rodriguez's lawyer.

--DHeyward (talk) 02:28, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Given AP has made a statement about their editorial policy here, and this really sounds like a transcription of a quote from a Today host that used Bradley, and the fact that this is a TV blog, I'd still be inclined to leave AP at "Chelsea" for now.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:47, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
They can say their editorial policy is anything they like, but this isn't a blog. Either it's the show and reporter that broke the "Bradley is Chelsea Manning" story on this show, or it's an AP reporter. Both are notables.
I can now access AP and confirmed it is an AP new article released to be republished by all their subscribers (and Google confirms they did): http://bigstory.ap.org/article/carson-daly-join-today-newly-created-role (12 September 2013). It's hosted by AP in their article section and has a tremendous number of reprints with verbatim Manning reference "Bradley Manning's sex change". It's in news space as an article. Where their subscribers put it, I can't tell but the number of reprints is massive and I haven't seen a correction or retraction. The reporter is here David Bauder contributions. There is an "Editors Note" at the bottom implying there is editorial oversight. It said nothing about the Manning reference. --DHeyward (talk) 04:10, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

US Finance Post / aka / US Financial Post / aka / Finance Post

Does anyone want to vouch for the editorial oversight of this website? DHeyward wants to include them as a reputable source. He has reverted their deletion.

  • It's corporate address and telephone number are also currently shared by Excel Living.com, Sophia's Collections Gifts, Smart Dreams Inc., "bgp.he.net/dns/thedailycentral.com", and Florida Termking Senior Life Insurance. The address in Pflugerville, Texas is above a Sushi Restaurant.
  • Their terms of service claim that the (multi-newspaper-and-television-station-owning) Scripps news service is one of its subsidiaries. It looks like it's the same TOS as Scripps.com, except the first two names have been changed. Scripps (the publicly traded company) doesn't seem to admit in any of their financial filings that they are owned by Florida Termking Insurance or US Finance Post/US Financial Post. I would love to see any evidence outside of a copy-and-pasted terms of service that Scripps has anything to do with this site at all.
  • The website is given high reliability ratings by Adsense-scam "verification" sites, which are themselves, proven scams which give high ratings to the dodgiest sites. __Elaqueate (talk) 13:04, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
  • The reason for the heading here is that the website doesn't use their own name consistently on their web page.
  • An example of their standard of journalism: "News has become an essential part of the day for every aware and educated citizen. Right from being serious & entertaining, new & old, fast paced update to in-depth analysis, the craving to remain updated and ahead in life is satisfied by knowing what’s happening in and around the society and world at large." __Elaqueate (talk) 19:53, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
I can no longer find the reference from Scripps or perhaps misread it. It appears they have the listed the same statutory agent in the TOS which is part of the original reason for affiliation. Absent no other verification, I can't justify their inclusion. Listing the Scripps stautory agent appears to be a poor copyright violation if it's not legitimate. I am also notifying Scripps if they wish to take action (or affirm relationship) but it appears dubious at this point. --DHeyward (talk) 19:58, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
Good work on notifying Scripps. There are a whole class of bogus news sites which hire people minimum wage to rewrite AP stories in attempt to click-fraud Google AdSense. I'm not specifically saying this site is necessarily one of them, of course. __Elaqueate (talk) 20:12, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Break-out of sources

We have "Chelsea" and "Bradley" but these are very broad. Post-announcement is probably the only relevant ones to consider for changing. I am more concerned that tangential references to Manning in articles are being handled differently than articles generated by actions of his lawyer (i.e. interviews with Coombs regarding her pardon request or her current condition given last week). For example stories about Snowden often mention Manning and ignore style guidelines for her gender and name reference. Articles about the Navy yard shooter that mention Manning w.r.t. security clearances, too. There was even a widely carried AP article I mentioned previously about the Today show that highlighted the Coombs interview in reference to how the interview was a coup and marked a change to the show. They ignored the AP styleguide and statement. The Sept 30 Time magazine piece is another example. I'd almost want to see "Articles quoting Coombs" vs. "Articles not quoting Coombs" to see if the references are to maintain access to a source or editorially enforced MOS's. There's a non-random dichotomy of use that's influenced by whether Coombs' announcements or interviews are in the current news cycle or not and it appears a stronger indicator (to me at least) than MOS. Thoughts? --DHeyward (talk) 07:29, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

We aren't counting direct quotes from Coombs. Everything else is speculation about motives behind use. We list many tangential references here and actually give them as much weight here as pieces about Manning specifically. AP has used Chelsea overwhelmingly, including tangential references, with the one tangential exception you mention. There is no empirical test that proves a source used "Chelsea" because they wanted to "maintain access to a source". __Elaqueate (talk) 13:16, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
I would suggest that moving a bunch of sources that have eight Chelsea uses and one Bradley use into the "Undecided" column is not a useful thing to do. Many of the Chelsea Manning sources haven't been updated with every instance from the last month because we were only looking at significant changes. I don't think anyone thought that someone would consider AP and the New York Times being "undecided" at this point. If we give little weight to what "undecided" reasonably means, it would also have the effect of moving more sources that have last used Bradley, but have used Chelsea, into undecided, sources such as Vanity Fair, the Wall Street Journal, World Socialist Web Site, etc. __Elaqueate (talk) 19:45, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
My point was that coverage that is primarily about CM (i.e. the spike last week due to Coombs talking about Chelsea adjusting and making friends and his tour of the facility) vs. coverage that mentions Manning but isn't specifically about her (i.e. both AP and NYTimes have independent stories that use BM despite their MOS.) This was noted above by OWK above and is really the bulk of a lot of the BM-only since announcement. Simply listing CM vs. BM this close around the announcement may not ultimately be how she is referred to in reliable sources as the news cycle transfers coverage as a human interest story generated to subsequent stories on broader issues. We don't have to speculate why, but noting that is occurring might be good a year from now or two years from now if she remains in the news as a reference rather than the subject and the reporters are writing about the leak rather than the person. For example, a google news search of "Snowden Bradley Manning -chelsea" for the last 30 days list a number of hits (can't evaluate them all for how they relate). But "Coombs Bradley Manning -chelsea" over the same time period yields nearly 0 english language sources. The Snowden affair isn't related to Manning except through their notable actions so conceivably there are more tangential references that link actions but aren't primarily Manning articles. I don't think that's an irrelevant dichotomy that shouldn't go unnoticed. --DHeyward (talk) 20:28, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
Google searches that use "-Chelsea" (to eliminate even a single mention of "Chelsea") from the last month get some amount of unknown-quality origin or no results. I don't think I'd lean too hard on that kind of research. All you seem to have found is an article about the changing of the Today Show TV set that has a passing mention of "Bradley Manning" at the end of the article that made its way into two prominently Chelsea-using sources. In other sources, there are plenty of example of Chelsea being used in both Chelsea-specific and non-Chelsea stories, and we have sources under the Bradley column that only use Bradley in a very tangential way. I don't know how significant your tailored-to-not-include-even-a-single-mention-of-Chelsea unexamined-for-quality sources are here. And as for "may not ultimately be", well, that sounds like crystal balling. People also predicted nobody would change to Chelsea at all for future stories, and that's not the case now. __Elaqueate (talk) 21:13, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
I think it would be perfectly reasonable to do another move request in a year's time, especially once several news cycles have passed, to see if "Chelsea" has stuck. It's possible, like John Mark Karr, that the new name won't stick, and even sources which were first to switch will go back to what is most likely to be recognized by their readers. But for now, I think we should lean on preponderance - if a source has 8 Chelseas and one Bradley, I wouldn't use that to switch them to the undecided column.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:39, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
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