Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard

Fringe theories noticeboard - dealing with all sorts of pseudoscience
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Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience

Has anyone seen, or been treated to, this warning yet?

As a motion amending the above-named Arbitration case, the Arbitration committee has acknowledged long-term and persistent problems in the editing of articles related to pseudoscience. As a result, the Committee has enacted broad editing restrictions, described here and below.

*Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process.

• The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics; restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project.
• Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to this decision; and, where appropriate, should be counseled on specific steps that he or she can take to improve his or her editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines.
• Discretionary sanctions imposed under the provisions of this decision may be appealed to the imposing administrator, the appropriate administrators' noticeboard (currently WP:AE), or the Committee.

These editing restrictions may be applied to any editor for cause, provided the editor has been previously informed of the case. This message is to so inform you. This message does not necessarily mean that your current editing has been deemed a problem; this is a template message crafted to make it easier to notify any user who has edited the topic of the existence of these sanctions.

Generally, the next step, if an administrator feels your conduct on pages in this topic area is disruptive, would be a warning, to be followed by the imposition of sanctions (although in cases of serious disruption, the warning may be omitted). Hopefully no such action will be necessary.

This notice is only effective if given by an administrator and logged here. --Elonka 19:29, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I had this warning placed on my talk page after that wonderful administrator, Elonka, blocked me for 24 hrs for 3RR, although I had not violated 3RR. (Not that I deny sometimes using an agressive approach to editing, and to having POed a fair number of administrators by explaining at length why I thought they happened to be wrong about something or other.) My assumption is that if I continue to edit the type of article that is discussed on this page, I may soon be returned to permanent wiki-exile. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 14:14, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Elonka's very personal interpretation of these guidelines does not seem at all in sync with other editors or administrators. It is odd that, having volunteered to "police" pseudoscience on her own initiative, she has chosen not to participate on this noticeboard. That might be because it primarily addresses content issues, which seem so far not to have concerned her. One recent comment to an administrator [1] about the article Orgone, elicited this reaction from another administrator [2]. The "softly, softly" approach of administrators, like User:Tim Vickers on chiropracty, seems to work well: it does not rub wikipedians up the wrong way; it takes into account the opinions of expert contributors; and it shows no favouritism to POV-pushers. Mathsci (talk) 14:44, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Same thing happened to me. Neither myself nor anyone else editing during the same day thought an edit war was happening, but suddenly I was blocked. The next day I got the warning (from Mangojuice). Just how "uninvolved" is she? For the record I just had to page watchlisted because of disturbances which had spilled over into other articles... so at least in my mind I was on the side of neutrality and order (2/3's of my block came from reverting two editers who opposed eachother). Shows what I know. NJGW (talk) 15:08, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

The funny thing about those "sanctions" is that (other than the one about giving that huge warning and linking to the case) those are the normal rules for blocking someone. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 18:41, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

From the couple of arbcom cases I've looked over or followed, that's how they role. In this case the reiteration also served to empower Elonka to block people at will. NJGW (talk) 18:46, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

this will not do. These "restrictions" clearly do not allow admins to jump out of the woodwork and block editors engaged in some conflict out of the blue. First of all, users need to be repeatedly or seriously failing to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia. Being involved in a dispute on its own doesn't qualify as such, disputes being very much a standard vehicle of article progress. Secondly, the restriction clearly states the admin needs to warn before blocking. I.e., the admin needs to say "stand down or I block you", and only if the editor then does again what they were just warned against will it be permissible to block them. I might also note, with Nihonjoe that we don't need any arcom restrictions to block users repeatedly or seriously failing to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, this is what WP:BLOCK stated all along. The mountain (arbcom) has yet again given birth to a mouse. Restating policy is not going to miraculously impart good judgement to admins who have none. Elonka going around issuing bogus 3RR blocks and pouncing on people involved in perfectly bona fide disputes is a sad case of an admin acting far out of line. dab (𒁳) 18:52, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

(Requested to review and give an opinion "from scratch" on the block and policy):

Edit warring - Wikipedia has a policy on edit warring, a non-collaborative and often combative and disruptive editing approach. Users on both sides of a dispute, are expected to collaborate rather than edit war, and are expected to learn this early on, and abide by it. "No edit warring" is the principle - an administrator may address edit warring even without 4 reverts being counted. 3RR is just a point where an automatic block is almost always merited.

Topic area and general sanctions - This is a dispute in the Psychic article, which is important because all our normal rules on edit warring are in essence, strengthened there due to the presence of a general sanction. The Pseudoscience topic area generally has been so disrupted and troubled, that administrators are given a green light to sort out user conduct and disruption issues there more forcefully than they might in other cases, and to use additional tools ("general sanctions") if needed to help them do so. The priority here is to stop editors acting improperly, and return the article to good quality collegial editing - by forcible addressing of unhelpful behavior traits, if needed. The focus of administrative action is therefore behaviors and unhelpful editing, and (where deemed unhelpful) their prevention/deterrence.

Activities of editors - I have not looked into the behavior of others in this incident. I have merely checked Elonka's basis of blocking. user:Malcolm Schosha has been an editor since January 2008, and has almost 2000 edits at the time of this incident.

• Malcolm was warned in detail by RolandR, about 3RR, and linked to that policy, on August 23.
• On October 6, Malcolm Schosha posted five reverts to Psychic in the space of 1 1/4 hours (16:01 - 17:15). Three of these were the same revert, removing the wording "outside the small field of parapsychology" three times 16:42...16:46...16:52, the other two were substantively the same revert twice 16:01...17:15.
• By any standard, any administrator would be appropriately judging this to contravene the bright line of WP:3RR and apply a 24 hour block. Elonka did so at 19:23, posted a talk page note at 19:24, and delivered the formal required notification per RFAR/Pseudoscience (in case it might be applicable in future) to Malcolm shortly after.
• Malcolm's unblock request was declined by a reviewing admin, Jayron32. None of the unblock reasons held much water:

1. "Only 3 edits were the same" (3RR contemplates all reverts, not just "the same revert", as revert warring generally is bad. There were 5 total, and even if one was a "glitch" it was still 4... and edit warring only holds 3 to be a limit, not a requirement.)
2. "I did not get a warning" (user knew all about 3RR from previous warnings elsewhere)
3. "I'm nice and I can't believe you'd do this" (actions are based on conduct, not niceness)
4. Later described the block reason as "a combination of vague generalities, wiki-lawering, and platitudes" (inaccurate; both the reviewing admin and myself, see edit warring in his history, which Elonka identified both specifically and accurately with diffs.)

Comments by others (above) - user:Mathsci describes Elonka as having a "very personal interpretation" but in fact on inspection she acted precisely and exactly in accordance with norms and policies. It is true some admins are "softly softly" and others are not; the expectation is that each will abide by high standards, and that is what this incident shows. user:Dab is quite correct that admins have that job regardless and that extra sanctions basically endorse doing what they can do anyway for the most part, but is incorrect in his labelling as "bogus" or the like. It is valid and appropriate, and hundreds of admins would probably have given the same opinion if asked.

Summary - This was a case where an editor repeatedly failed to adhere to communal norms they knew well and had been warned about previously, and were blocked for it under completely routine 3RR by an admin who correctly applied that policy as hundred of admins do. While disputing may be legitimate, edit warring is prone to blocking. This is why Wikipedia has such a range of dispute resolution processes - exactly because reaching agreement is hard sometimes. I hope the users involved will use them in future, even if others might not.

FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 22:17, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Another star chamber wiki-trial, in which the "editor" (me) was not informed of the proceedings.

The main problem, leaving aside from the problematic secret wiki-trial, is the complete misunderstanding of the point I was trying to make in my discussion with Elonka. The problem I see is that blocking users when no user has complained, and when the editing process is in fact making progress despite some abrasiveness, frequently is more disruptive to the editing of the article than the abrasiveness or possible violations of 3RR. I was not complaining about my block (a minor personal annoyance), but using that block as an example to explain the actual problem: the general problem of disruptive administrative intrusion in the process. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 22:47, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, policies and norms on blocking do not support your view. Administrators may warn if they feel it's appropriate. For example if a user genuinely may not know something is a problem (which doesn't apply here). They may block without prior warning, if that's appropriate. The communal norm is well established and it is that both have their well-established place in the community, because it is harmful to the project if users get the idea that edit warring is a legitimate means of involvement. It isn't. What you may be used to will probably apply well in the places it's used, but here we have strict views on edit warring: "Don't do it". You were completely normally blocked for it. The administrative involvement was completely usual and routine. What would be a better approach all around, for future, is, "don't edit war". Let others do that instead, which may help limit administrative involvement to the kind you would like.

If you feel a matter is being disruptively edited, ask them to take it to the talk page and discuss it there. if they don't, and you have asked twice, post on WP:ANI that you are trying to resolve a dispute and would like to avoid edit warring, could an administrator watch the situation and help ensure a level field and that no tendentious editing is going on. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 23:34, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

My remarks were not intended to apply to the particular case of Malcom Schosha. Elonka seems to have a problem in finding the correct tone with which to address fellow wikipedians. I cited in particular Elonka's outspoken criticism of User:KillerChihuahua, where I provided diffs related to the Orgone article. Elonka in general (not necessarily just in the sphere of pseudoscience) seems to treat POV-pushers [3] [4][5][6][7] quite differently from editors or administrators of long standing[8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21][22]. It is becoming increasingly harder to detect any hint of the "softly, softly" approach of more seasoned and even-handed administrators. Mathsci (talk) 23:04, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that, Mathsci. I've read your first 5 diffs ("pov pushers") and what I notice in all of them is that Elonka is putting a lot of effort and goodwill to try and educate people. Those diffs are almost entirely passing along commonsense - how to avoid being seen as an SPA, that people will value it if you refactor your own angry words, de-escalating disputes, what Wikipedia's about, asking to start again from a clean slate, encouragement to work it out, and so on. These are good things and need saying, and are helpful. I've seen her be direct with people at times, but most of those diffs are actually well spoken, and need to be heard more; they would help editors avoid disputes a lot.

I also looked at the first 10 diffs to seasoned editors and again, they all seem well within normal bounds - reasonable discussion and comment, some advice seeking, a few routine admin matters, a request to supply a diff to back a claim [23], and so on. You highlighted her "outspoken criticism" of KillerChihuahua, yet the diff you provided [24] show her simply saying in a perfectly reasonable tone, that she was surprised to see an administrator describe a user as "really obnoxious" [25] and would they be willing to refactor it, or would they allow her to remove the wording. I don't know if that helps, if you feel there is a concern I'm glad to discuss if it'll help. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 23:34, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

The full exchange between KillerChihuahua and Elonka over Orgone, over a month old remark, was later criticized by Guettarda [26]. He makes some good points about how to go about reducing disruption. Tim Vickers' way of asking other contributors what should happen on chiropractic, i.e. acting as a sort of low-profile mediator, seems to have worked fine and makes optimal use of the expert medical editors there, like Fyslee and Eubulides. The jury is still out on the desirability of nurturing POV-pushers. It didn't work with Jagz. Mathsci (talk) 08:13, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

But this is the point. You cite Guettarda's quote, but most of that short comment is to say simply "you can be more soft about it" and to gently give good advice. We all could gain by others' input, Elonka can too. Admins have different styles and yet, everything in this case suggests Elonka followed a quite good and careful standard in her decision to block for 3RR, even given Guettarda's view on approaching disputes. It could be that you favor a soft approach, and Elonka may gravitate to a more direct "hard" one... people vary. But her actions were well within norms and reason. Not one thing in this thread suggests the 3RR decision was wrong. Review shows that she gave accurate precise evidence and applied well established norms correctly. The diffs you gave to show bias of some kind actually are her helping others and well worded inquiries, they broadly reflect well on her and show behavior that I honestly wish more would do in the way of taking time to coach, help, advise others.

All I can say is, edit warring is bad. If people don't do it, then they will be fine. If people do, then they run the risk of meeting an admin with a harder approach who acts on it. If the experienced editor does not edit war, then the POV warrior is at risk of that instead. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 19:27, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Have you had a chance to look into my case, where I was unaware of going over the limit because I had reverted two editors at odds with eachother (one dif of which is me removing an incorrectly used CN tag from the see also section, but my edit summary said "revert"). I have no history of editing the content of pseudoscience and I don't think I have any history with any of the editwarriors that brought on the RFA. I was even discussing one editor's actions on his talk page and and the article's talk page. We were having a working dialog, and then 40 minutes after my last edit to the article Elonka (who had not been active on the page or the talk page) blocked me with no warning. There was so much of an issue brought up around it that Elonka unblocked me early (but for some reason she didn't take off the autoblock she knew was in place [27], then some strange bug in the system made me unable to edit my talk page i after the unblock, and Elonka didn't answer the email I sent her until over 12 hours later even though she was editing Wikipedia at the time). The whole series of events was extremely odd and uncalled for, as several other admins (not to mention editors of the article that day) agreed. NJGW (talk) 00:16, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I hadn't. As I commented I was purely addressing the request I'd had: Malcolm Schosha's 3RR. I can clear up one thing for you. Autoblocks are a law unto themselves, and work automatically. They are hard to fix sometimes. Elonka's post was the best one can do, namely "I've unblocked you, this might happen, if it does let me know and I'll fix it". They are hard to fix until they actually happen (if they do). It wasn't an omission, indeed many admins wouldn't have thought about it or said anything as it's not that common. I'm not sure about the rest - she may well have edited but not checked her email for most things, been doing some stuff not other stuff, I don't know, and I wouldn't like to guess. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 19:27, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

FT2 wrote: "Unfortunately, policies and norms on blocking do not support your view."

FT2, you still don't get it. What I was talking about is a reconsideration of policies and norms on blocking, because they are often more disruptive to the editing process than some abrasivness (ie incivility), or possible incidents of 3RR. I would not have brought what was just a personal complaint to this noticeboard. capisce? Malcolm Schosha (talk) 00:42, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

There's complete validity in having a view that blocking policy and norms should change. The issue here is a specific block and current norms. What i have done is checked carefully if Elonka's action on your block accorded with current norms. It does, and she acted to a high standard (though you may not appreciate the result). If you feel the norm itself needs to change, then the best place to discuss is at the blocking policy talk page. That's a separate question. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 19:27, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

This is aimed at FT2: Having watched quite a number of disputes play out by now, I think the real issue is a bit different from what is going on here. As far as I can see, when an editor prepared to edit-war gets into a content dispute with an editor who isn't prepared to, the edit-warrior wins every time. If there is no edit war, administrators won't help. Therefore, refusing to edit-war amounts to unconditional surrender. Until this dilemma is solved, problems of this sort are going to keep coming up, and people who are fundamentally good editors are going to be keep being blocked for edit-warring. Looie496 (talk) 01:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Aware and if I ever see a place to put a hammer and chisel and gain communal consensus to something that would likely fix it, I would do so. That hasn't happened yet, though I have some ideas..... FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 19:27, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Authorship of Dreams from My Father

Kauffner (talk · contribs) and Mikedelsol (talk · contribs) wish to use this source, from The American Thinker, in Dreams from My Father, to include the claim that the book was ghostwritten by William Ayers. I think that a) The American Thinker is not a sufficiently reliable source for a claim this extraordinary, and b) the claim is a fringe theory, and one not sufficiently noted in mainstream sources to be included in the article. Editors who are familiar with fringe theories in political contexts are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Dreams from My Father. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 02:14, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

We should use the American Thinker, but only if we can use this source too. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:28, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Watch it — somebody's going to take that seriously. (One editor on the talk page is currently claiming that the repetition of the American Thinker claim on Rush Limbaugh and WorldNet Daily means that it's reached the mainstream.) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 02:39, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I doubt the POV-pushers know about this noticeboard, but I'll watch the page. Right now it looks like you have things under control. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:53, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Watchlisted, and I took a look at our article on The American Thinker as well - which is actually not too bad. MastCell ^Talk 17:23, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Incidentally, on his blog Noroton (talk · contribs) has, flatteringly, used this dispute as an example of how political POV-pushing on Wikipedia should be handled. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:19, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

There have been further developments on this front. The Times of London has reported that a Republican congressman (Chris Cannon) and his brother-in-law offered to pay an Oxford don $10,000 to "prove" that Ayers wrote Obama's book. The don declined, and later ran an analysis himself, which led him to the conclusion "...I feel totally confident that it is false." The story of the congressman's involvement has also been covered in The Salt Lake Tribune. My feeling is that these sources are reliable enough to merit a brief mention in the article, but other folks at Talk:Dreams from My Father#Fringe think that it's still best left out. Any opinions are welcome. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:10, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Israelites

Could someone take a look at this (and the bottom section of the talk page). Was I wrong in tagging the article? And should it even exist, don't we already have several articles covering the same topic? The same editor had added a huge amount to Promised Land which I stubified and probably needs merging. Doug Weller (talk) 11:39, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

It would seem to me that the best solution would be to put all the material in History of ancient Israel and Judah and redirect Israelite there. Mangoe (talk) 00:11, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

To any one who doesn't remember, this editor's actions came up on this board very recently Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_7#Dating_the_Bible. I knew I remembered the name, but didn't remember from where exactly. NJGW (talk) 00:18, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, maybe not all the material, the bit about "According to the Bible, the Israelites is an English language name given to that group of people" maybe shouldn't be moved. Unless English is a lot older than it is usually thought to be. :-) The editor doesn't seem to understand at all our policies on NPOV, etc. Some of the material before he started could be moved, but I think he'd move with it. I don't see a good rationale for the existence of the article. Doug Weller (talk) 16:31, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

That sentence caught my eye too. I would have rewritten it had I found some decent sourcing for something more, um, accurate. Mangoe (talk) 17:03, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I tried suggesting a few different ways to split up the topics to keep religious and historical separate, but he's not biting. NJGW (talk) 17:13, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

• Thanks for NJGW for linking to the previous thread. Possible we should be thinking about a RFC for this chap. He really does not seem to be getting it. Moreschi (talk) 16:33, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Trying one last thing before RFC. NJGW (talk) 17:13, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

If you're working on a logical division of material between the series of articles please include Archeology of Israel which seems to overlap with Pre-history of the Southern Levant. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:52, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Who would dare take on the task of sorting out all these overlapping articles? Doug Weller (talk) 15:17, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I did do some work on Archeology of Israel - it was once worse. Would you agree that were the articles to be sorted out, the first priority should be to present the prehistory of the region (i.e. the prehistory as it is known to academics)? Also in such a case, one might want to do this at the widest geographical level first, e.g. Middle East, before coming to Levant and then, if necessary, southern Levant? "Archeology of" articles are problematic from the start, as it is not clear whether they would deal with the practice of archeology or the findings (i.e. the prehistory). (Except that archeology doesn't only deal with prehistory ....). Itsmejudith (talk) 15:38, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. In any case, I don't think 'Archaeology of Isreal' is a very useful title - what Israel when? Doug Weller (talk) 16:09, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Carl Jung

I have come to think that Carl Jung founded a cult rather than a school of psychology. This was the view developed by Richard Noll in the two books he wrote about Jung, but Noll is not really mentioned in the Jung article. In fact, it seems to me, the article reads more like a promotional piece for Jungian psychology than like an encyclopedia entry. But, perhaps, I am being unfair. I would be interested in reading the views of others. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 14:43, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I think you're being a bit unfair. The article is lacking in that it fails to make the point that most modern psychologists don't take Jung's ideas very seriously (he's similar to Freud in this respect), but the information that is in the article looks accurate and neutrally presented to me. Looie496 (talk) 16:55, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I have my doubts about your claim that " most modern psychologists don't take Jung's ideas very seriously". That's a bit like saying that modern physicists don't take Newton very seriously. Being a pioneer in a field isn't the same as being a fringy crackpot. --dab (𒁳) 10:22, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

[28] Malcolm Schosha (talk) 11:37, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

The Bair book reviewed in the NYT is surely a reliable source and a represents a notable POV (among others). Why not add some material from it to the article? Itsmejudith (talk) 12:49, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I am more interested in adding material from Richard Noll; but, after the nine month fight involved with the Alice Bailey article, I am not sure I want to take on another article with cult followers willing the fight all and any additions that question the perfection of the cult founder. I am trying to make up my mind about initiating such an effort. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 13:41, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

(responding to dab's comment) I'm won't claim familiarity with every aspect of his work. He did some fundamental work on personality that is still taken seriously, but he's better known for mystical stuff such as synchronicity and the "collective unconsciousness", which don't get any mainstream support. Looie496 (talk) 16:01, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Noll's perspective seems to be highly influential and important to include in the article. I note though that our article on Noll says his book was not "a definitive account" of Jung. I'd be sad if we found ourselves arguing "for" and "against" this complex figure. Arguably practising psychologists need to have a consensus view on whether he is "a pioneer" or "a debunked charlatan", but the social sciences are not a monolith. Students of, say, cultural studies or theology might read his work in a very different way. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:39, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Celtic anarchism

I came across this in an attempt to create a stub at indigenism. The claim of the existence of a specifically "Celtic anarchism" appears to rely entirely on reference to http://celticanarchy.org/ -- ah yes, and 18 subscribers at some mailing list. --dab (𒁳) 15:36, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I've sent it to AfD. Fails WP:ORG Doug Weller (talk) 16:18, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Buddhist logic

I ran across this one during routine article cleanup. I'm honestly not sure if it's a fringe theory or not, but it certainly looks like it could be. I don't really know anything about the topic, and it's enough of a mess right now that I wouldn't even know how to start improving it. hbent (talk) 16:31, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

This wouldn't necessarily be fringe, depending on how it develops. The article was massively expanded by an IP editor two days ago, and if that editor continues to work on it, there is a possibility it will turn into something valid. If not, it isn't a very useful article. Looie496 (talk) 17:00, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Should perhaps be merged with Indian logic. Itsmejudith (talk) 12:53, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

There used to be an upper division psychology class at U.C. Berkeley called "Buddhist Psychology", so I'd hope there would be some useful sources somewhere that they drew on. NJGW (talk) 16:17, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Functional medicine

I removed the prod on this article because this is known pseudo-science; see [29]. Someone more interested in this topic (or pseudo-medicine in general) may want to further balance the article. VG ☎ 22:53, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

If anyone wants to deal with it by AfD, that might be the way to go. The ref above does not show it to be notable, just that one company used the name in their advertising. I am not sure other occurences of the phrase are the same thing. DGG (talk) 04:02, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

There are multiple FTC news releases cited at that link, all about the same person and his various companies and products; it's not just some other M.D.'s claims, otherwise Quackwatch could have easily been sued by now. Other editors have since worked on the article. VG ☎ 11:36, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

It still needs a lot of work. It's basically an advert and a coat-rack for attacks on modern medicine.Verbal chat 15:31, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Venetic theory

Slovenian indigenism, see diff. See also Talk:Timeline of Slovenian history. --dab (𒁳) 11:21, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

more Assyrian trouble

The "Assyrian" nightmare shows signs of being revived, this time by "Assyrianist" Suryoyo othuroyo (talk · contribs) (possibly a sock) vs. "Aramaeanist" The TriZ (talk · contribs) and AramaeanSyriac (talk · contribs) (as usual, most of the involved accounts make clear even in their username that they're just here to edit-war), also featuring some spectacular admin failure. This has all been thoroughly discussed, to and past the point of nausea. It's all at Names of Syriac Christians. This should mostly be a matter of trying to enforce basic policy with editors who Do Not Want to Get It. I don't have time for this atm. --dab (𒁳) 10:13, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Should I be offended by this? It is you who are making disprutive and controversial changes without anything to back it up with. Also, maybe you should mention user:Am6212 and user:Trippss(possible sockpuppets). And the admin failure? Are you kidding me? It is you who have made major admin failures since the beginning of this "war", since you're not familiarized with the subject and still making controversial changes without seeking consensus with neither of the "both sides". Maybe it is YOU who should "familiarize yourself with the history of the debate and seek consensus on talkpages.", [30]. The TriZ (talk) 12:45, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

nonsense. If you claim that I should "familiarize myself with the history of the debate" you fail to recognize that I have actively participated in this sad excuse for a "debate" between teenage nationalists, and actively tried to get it on a construcive level, actively creating the article Names of Syriac Christians, etc.

You are welcome to bring up new evidence, but you are certainly not welcome to just keep going as if nothing of this had taken place. Wikipedia is well aware of the shape of this dispute now, and it is futile to just keeping up attempts to present one side as "the Truth". I will insist to revert this recent outbreak of edit-warring to the status quo ante unless new material is presented, or a new consensus has formed. --dab (𒁳) 13:01, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

"in this sad excuse for a "debate" between teenage nationalists, and actively tried to get it on a construcive level"

Yes, that was indeed very constructive. To proving my point, let ous analyze your recent edits. You redirect the page Syriacs to Syriac (disambiguation)([31]) which you redirect to Syria (disambiguation)([32]) in which you redirect Syriac people and Syriac ethnic group to Syriac/Assyrian ([33] & [34]) which if course, you have redirected to Assyrian people [35]. This is the way you contribute. And you haven't been contributing to the debate constructively in a positive way, I can dig out diffs from where "both sides" clerly show their unsatisfaction with your involvement (because of that you're making edits that only aggravates the situation).

Recent? Where have you been the last halfyear? After that user:EliasAlucard been blocked, the two sides has in a better way co-operated with eachother which have resulted in a much better balance and a more objective picture of reality. Lately though, users like user:Am6212, user:Trippss and user:Suryoyo othuroyo have been starting edit-wars without discussing and ruining months of work and co-operation from both sides (also the absence of user:Chaldean has probably played a part). The TriZ (talk) 13:23, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Maybe I was a bit harsh on Dab in my previous statement, and I apologize for that. But these users, user:Am6212, user:Trippss & user:Suryoyo othuroyo, have not been contributing in a positive way to the Syriac/Assyrian/Chaldean articles, which are the only articles they've been edited. The TriZ (talk) 00:07, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Lumania: mythology or fringe?

The article on "Seth's" (that is, Jane Roberts's) Lumania claims it as an "ancient mythological civilization". This strikes me as grossly misleading (especially since the article tends to be written "in world", as it were), but I thought I'd bring it up here first before mauling it and identifying it as pseudo-history. Mangoe (talk) 21:04, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

The Mythology article says mythology "refers to a body of folklore/myths/legends that a particular culture believes to be true and that often use the supernatural to interpret natural events and to explain the nature of the universe and humanity." Since Lumania is a fabrication of the Seth books, it does not seem to have a basis in any traditional culture. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 21:44, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Throw an tag on it and rewrite =) Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 22:58, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Or just change it to "mythical ancient civilization", which is probably what the author meant anyway. Looie496 (talk) 00:30, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I've thoroughly rewritten it to emphasize the suppositional and pseudohistorical nature of the thing. Mangoe (talk) 14:04, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Promotion of fringe by POV-fork

Bioacoustics therapy. by mixing material from Bioacoustics with extreme fringe material about using frewquency analysis of the voice to diagnose disease, throwing in some fringe self-published internet "journals", and such, this article attempts to put the science of Bioacoustics, and extreme fringe on the same basis, by switching between them a few times a paragraph and thus using descriptions of the science to bolster the fringe. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 02:12, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I worked it over some... see what you think. The history section I ran out of patience with, but I got rid of the "research" section (no research was cited, aside from one ref which said there is "little validity" to the science it claims). "Bioacoustic therapy" and "bioacoustics therapy" get zero hits on google.scholar. NJGW (talk) 03:55, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Great White Brotherhood

Perhaps I am just being negative about it, but it seems to me this article has a major problem with original research, in the form of synthesis. It lists as examples of the Great White Brotherhood

1. Karl von Eckartshausen's "council of light"
2. the Great White Lodge of Theosophical literature
3. the Secret Chiefs of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn
4. the "Brotherhood" of AMORC
5. the "Universal White Brotherhood" of Peter Deunov
6. the "Fraternité Blanche Universelle" of Omraam Mikhaël Aïvanhov and
7. "Immortal Saints and Sages" of Guy Ballard

all brought together under the same heading, without any reliable source cited to support that implied claim. (Might as well have included the Tzadikim too.)

It seems to me that this article should be limited to the Theosophocal related groups that actually used the term Great White Brotherhood. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 15:11, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Chemtrail conspiracy theory

An anon-IP/new user is objecting to the term "conspiracy" being used in the Chemtrail conspiracy theory page by repeatedly removing it. Should be an easy problem to solve, unlike others that often turn up here :) Verbal chat 16:25, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Cold fusion conflict of interest report

See Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#Request for injunction against Cold Fusion investor Pierre Carbonnelle. Relates to cold fusion and therefore also to this noticeboard. ScienceApologist (talk) 17:21, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Discussion has been closed as not adequately asserting that edits contrary to the mission of the encyclopedia have been made by this single-purpose cold fusion promoting account. If anyone would like to try to explain that the 2004 DOE report said to stop this nonsense and that no one except diehard proponents think that anything has changed, be my guest. - Eldereft (cont.) 21:42, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Magnetospheric eternally collapsing object

This article is 45k in length, and barely mentions its status as a highly speculative idea with little following or interest among the cosmological community. It may take people with a solid grounding in astronomy and cosmology to make this a neutral article without undue weight, so I am bringing it up here. I did remove material from this article that was copied into Twin Quasar, but don't have the inclination to jump into the MECO article myself. Tim Shuba (talk) 18:14, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Bahá'í Faith

Look at this [36] and see if you don't think there is something fishy going on. I keep coming across sections on this tiny little faith. There seems to be a huge push to promote it, but they are smart about it. Just insert it wherever there is any relevance at all. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 05:26, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I've noted this before. In any article that has an "in other religions" section, there will be an "in Bahai" subsection -- something any serious encyclopedia would never do. The attempt here is to extend the "Abrahamic religions" list from "Christianity, Islam, Judaism" to "Christianity, Islam, Judaism and Bahai", which when you compare the historical significance of the first three to that of the latter is simply amusing. It's not quite as bad as the ubiquitous "in Marvel Comics and World of Warcraft" additions, but it's comparable. World of Warcraft has twice as many subscribers as Bahai has adherents. --dab (𒁳) 12:02, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

And yet... Bahai passes our test for inclusion (well documented by secondary sources). It may not be as large as the "mainstream" religions such as Christianity, Islam and Judaism... but I don't really see any justification for removing such additions. Blueboar (talk) 12:53, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

• Bahai is comparable with Judaism numerically. See Adherents for lots of stats. Colonel Warden (talk) 14:23, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

• Am I missing out on something here? The site you linked pegs Baha'i at 7 million. A healthy, respectable number, to be sure, but it's barely half of Judiasm's 14 million. I mean, I guess anything is "comparable" to anything else numerically - problem being that said comparsions may not always be equal. Badger Drink (talk) 03:30, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

• Those numbers have a similar order of magnitude. The big three are clearly Christianity, Islam and Hinduism with a billion or so adherents. Then there's Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism with hundreds of millions of adherents. Judaism and Bahai are both third-tier religions along with Sikhism, Spiritism and others. Colonel Warden (talk) 05:42, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

This tier system is clearly OR. You can strictly talk about number of subscribers, but not that's not number of believers/practioners and not a ranking of importance (historcically, politically, socially or otherwise). NJGW (talk) 05:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE uses the term minority a lot and this is mostly a matter of counting. Your concept of importance seems more subjective. Colonel Warden (talk) 08:24, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Within reason... Some of these insertion are based on self-published sources, and the inclusions into completely general topics aren't justified. I would suggest taking this up at WP:WPBF, because I know there are Baha'i contributors, who respect Wikipedia's content policies and would respond responsibly. Vesal (talk) 18:40, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

If Christianity is about 1/5th (??) of the world, Bahá'í would be 6 million is 1/1000th of the world? I'm bad at math, but really is it notable enough for inclusion in many of the articles it's in?

"Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and will generally not include tiny-minority views at all."

In religion articles like [37] it is the first one on the list. Do you really think it should be mentioned at all, in most of the articles where it is? (and BTW, I picked the Hell article at random and then went to look.) ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 04:14, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

That one is in alphabetical order, but if it is the smallest religion among those listed I think it should be in 'others'. Bringing it up at WP:WPBF sounds like a good idea. Someone has been pushing it hard, do we know who? Doug Weller (talk) 06:09, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I was watching WP:WPBF, and thus commenting here. Much of the Baha'i content in some of general religious pages has been included by anonymous users; the editors who are active on Wikipedia and who are Baha'i have noticed this and have been aware and vigilant about undue weight. For example you can see this page which documents some of the problems (it's there because the wikiproject did not exist at the time) that have been noticed. Thus some editors have gone through and reduced in size the length of the Baha'i sections (such as [38], [39], [40]) that were too long. At the same time, there has been an effort to use secondary sources to cite the material. Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 12:56, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Yup, Hell's entry is too long. Please do bring these my project page. The WPBF page is a bit fallow, so I'll be able to address this sooner.

I don't buy the argument that Baha'i in Hell is UW. It's a general survey article. Christianity is obviously larger, which is why it has its own article on the subject: Hell in Christian beliefs. I'd like to be the first to delete any Baha'i reference in that article.

We do care about WP:Undue, but also please note that the point of WP is to develop a broad cross-section of topics. In the face of WP's anti-expert bias its a somewhat redeeming feature.

So, if good references can be found and the entry kept in line, I'll insist that it go in in general articles alongside Zoroastrian, or Mormon, or Tao, or Mayan, etc. Ciao, MARussellPESE (talk) 13:47, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps we just need a little perspective here... At least we are discussing a real religion. Wikipedia gives extensive treatment to less than real religions. Hiberniantears (talk) 14:57, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

(on principle of full disclosure) As a Christian, I am completely sympathetic and fully tolerant towards Bahá'í. As a editor of an encyclopedia, I too remain skeptical. Justification for its inclusion in the religion and science article has been made by an article in the Zygon: Journal of Religion of Science, which is definitely a big plus. A big minus, however, is that many readers are often going to be confused by the lack of popular explanation. And when I have provided the best brief explanation I believe exists by a leading theologian Hans Kung, I recieved a nasty-gram [41] (by editor who may very well be Bahá'í).--Firefly322 (talk) 17:50, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Sheesh, Judaism is extremely notable not in terms of number of adherents, but because it has been around for some 2500 years, and has indirectly spawned the two religions now dominant, viz. Christianity and Islam. Bahai has few adherents and is a new religious movement. Of course it deserves its own article, but you can not assume that it is worth mentioning in any article not directly addressing Bahai topics. This is a matter of WP:DUE: inclusion of Bahai factoids into non-Bahai topics needs a justification every time. --dab (𒁳) 18:04, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

It looks like this is a good place to make it central. Just list it there first. You think? ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 20:47, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I think that, if based on nothing else, the difficult situation of Bahais in Iran [42] justifies cutting them plenty of slack in the WP articles. It does not seem to be the only such case either, because the followers of the Dalai Lama get attention on WP way beyond what is justified by their numbers. Have a heart, guys. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 21:04, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Just as commentary: Bahá'í (which has been around since the 19th century) is one of the few faiths that makes a point of being explicitly trans-denominational. I'm not up on the details, but as I understand it, their view is that all religions are the same religion, so they would naturally think that they have a place in the discussion of any religion. that can be taken to ridiculous extremes, of course, so some concern is in order, but I wanted to point out that these weren't necessarily idle additions. --Ludwigs2 22:31, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

LOL- I'll bet that is the very first time "have a heart" or similar sentiments have come to this noticeboard. I don't have anything against them, of course, but I've seen so much mention in the most strange places. But I really very much doubt that inserting them in all sorts of articles is doing them any good. If you want to do some good, put a "religious persecutions" box on all the religions articles, separated into nations- list the faiths being persecuted in the various nations.

Ludwigs, their doctrines are quite different from other faiths. So that's funny. But I know nothing about them really. I never heard of them before all the mentions in WP, and that's significant: I just don't think they are that notable. Jews would not be either, if they didn't have such a huge place in world history. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 00:24, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

well, I don't mind being the voice of compassion. If that's lacking here, all the more reason to add it. but yeah - if editors are just throwing its name into the mix to have its name in the mix, that does need to be reigned in.

but please be a bit careful about matters of faith: you can't really judge one by the number of its adherents, and you'll get a lot of noses out of joint if you do. Baha'i (or Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Wicca, Scientology, or whatever) may have smallish numbers compared to the Big Boys, but mostly what that means is that the big faiths have hordes of 'in-name-only' followers. really, not that many people in the world are honestly religious. I'd give odds that the number of Christians in the world who really understand and practice their faith isn't that much larger than the number of Baha'i people out there. but I digress... --Ludwigs2 03:58, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I did some scouting around in the "links to" list, and didn't spot anything that seemed very obnoxious. A substantial number of the links come from the {{religion topics}} template. Looie496 (talk) 04:16, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

No, they are not obnoxious. Yes, and what are they doing among the Abrahamic religions part at all? "Bahá'í Faith · Christianity · Gnosticism · Islam · Judaism · Rastafari · Samaritanism" it says. Read this, and the TOC. It just isn't quite right. Anyone coming here would think they are a major world religion. They get more or less equal billing. The Mormons are much bigger. Look [43]. Spiritism Juche and Sikhism are all much bigger.

If people here think it a) not worth bothering with, or b) is fine the way it is, then that's fine. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 06:19, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I never judged them at all Ludwigs. Not as good or bad. Just as inserted in a lot of articles where it doesn't really belong, or doesn't belong in an article which is complete, since the other faiths should also be there. Having Bahai and not the others makes it look like one of the big 3. I'm sure they did it in completely good faith. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 06:19, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

It may be worthwhile to become mindful that the Baha'i Faith is an actively growing religion - in the top two for the last 35+ years according to Christian associated statistics - see Major religious groups#Trends in adherence - and as such is active on many issues on many levels. We have representation at the UN - Bahá'í International Community and participated in a number of global forums. Baha'is have many associated projects some of which are detailed per country in a growing list of articles Category:Bahá'í Faith by country and there has been in the news coverage and governmental actions in America and Europe especially in a variety of ways often associated with the situation the Baha'is are in in Iran and Egypt - see Persecution of Bahá'ís. None of this is meant to dismiss the issue of undue weight. It is however to share some ways in which there is, indeed, weight to be noted. As for comparison with other groups, consider and please be reminded that groups like Mormons are already members of Christianity. People seem to pretty casually mix denominations and independent religions. I would also note some articles order the headings alphabetically and some not. Therefore in some of these places they are alphabetically first and others not. Smkolins (talk) 07:53, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Minor comment - speaking as an outsider, I don't see how Latter Day Saints can be considered Christians. Doug Weller (talk) 08:17, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

LDS identify themselves as Christians. But my understanding is that they are almost never invited to participate in ecumenical activities by other Christian groups. So a lot of different denominations of Christianity were involved in the conferences that resulted inScientific Perspectives on Divine Action, but I don't think there were any LDS involved. --Firefly322 (talk) 17:32, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I am not a Bahai, but I definitely find something disturbing about the fact that we are discussing this subject as a "fringe theory" in the first place. From the beginning of wikipedia, I have noticed a tendency among certain editors to try to appoint themselves as the Council of Nicea, and declare on everyone else's behalf, whose ideas are valid and 'approved', while also declaring whose are heresy. We should not do this by any means; Wikipedia is NOT the Council of Nicea. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 11:34, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Til Eulenspiegel, that is not what is going on in this discussion. There was a question about the large number of articles linked to Bahai, but no one said that the religion is fringe. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 11:44, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Then please tell me, why are we discussing these things on the page for "fringe theories", Malcolm??? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 11:46, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree. This topic should not have been brought up on the fringe message board. It's disgusting that few editors realize how offensive doing truly is. (and I am most certainly not a Bahai nor I ever become one.) --Firefly322 (talk) 17:39, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

excuse me? disgusting? We are trying to fix a problem, and we are doing it in the open. Unless you want to protect this board from becoming unduly cluttered, I fail to see your point. There isn't a dedicated "Bahai hyperbole noticeboard" yet, sorry, so you should be glad the problem is being addressed at all, never mind the title of the page the discussion happens to be taking place. We could have the same discussion on IRC, via email, on user talkpages, or wherever, and none of that would be "disgusting". --dab (𒁳) 21:28, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

guys, this has gone way off track. Nobody here has (or should have) anything against Bahai, or for Bahai for that matter. The problem is that Bahai factoids are often, systematically, added to articles in violation of WP:DUE. We are here to fix it. That's all. As pointed out here, hyperbole helps nobody, least of all the reputation of the faith whose representation is being pushed unduly. What exacltly is "due" is a matter of case by case discussion, on article talkpages. --dab (𒁳) 12:39, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Where things went was the moment people started to talk about number of adherents. WP:DUE has nothing to do with number of adherents, or else we must rewrite evolution/creationism to reflect popular opinion. The way to deal with this issue is to demand academic publishers for inclusion of factoids, and if you do this equally for all religion, you will get due weight because mainstream religions are discussed in OUP quality monographs. Vesal (talk) 14:53, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I would dispute that "WP:DUE has nothing to do with number of adherents". Any religion with more than, say, 500 million adherents can be considered of global notability, and its take on things hence will be "due" rather easily. True, it does not follow from a small number of adherents that a religion is not notable, as evident in Judaism. Bahai clearly fails to be a "major world religion" and languishes on second or third tier with Confucianism or Jainism. It also clearly falls under "new religious movements", and it is certainly notable as the largest NRM, and discussing it is "due" whenever "various other religions" or NRMs are being discussed, but not otherwise. We seem to agree that mentioning Bahai in every possible and impossible instance has been overdone on WP, and we should just judiciously fix that. --dab (𒁳) 15:18, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Confucianism was long the dominant religion in a country of unsurpassed importance. The teaching seems to be resurgent in contemporary China. It would be almost impossible to exaggerate the importance of Confucianism in China and in a number of surrounding countries (although the Confucists themselves did not regard Confucianism as a religion and spoke of Taoism and Buddism as "the two religions". [Malcolm]

Dbachmann said, "The problem is that Bahai factoids are often, systematically, added to articles in violation of WP:DUE." It isn't clear to me that that has been demonstrated. Let's either drop this or get specific, please. Looie496 (talk) 16:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Probably the fairest way to handle this is look at other encyclopedia articles from Encyclopedia Americana and Britannica. Also look at the main sources for an article. If there are a lot of tertiary sources (well-respected survey books, other well-respected encyclopedia, etc.), which all fail to mention bahai in regards to a certain topic then it's almost certainly fair to say that Bahai simply doesn't belong in the article. --Firefly322 (talk) 17:24, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Discussion continues here. Vesal (talk) 00:48, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Phaistos Disc decipherment claims

This article (Phaistos Disc decipherment claims) includes quite a few decipherment claims, many of which are fringe theories and which have been published only on personal websites or vanity press. A notability check for each of these claims is definitely needed. bogdan (talk) 09:04, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

The 'game board' section should probably be drastically reduced, and the only usable source is the archaeology article - hopefully I can get a copy. The pattern maze should be removed unless a RS can be found. Fauconau can be used and I've got the Duhoux article reviewing him. I'm removing a few authors whose work is self-published. Doug Weller (talk) 09:55, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

since there is no commonly accepted decipherment, all these alleged decipherments fall under WP:FRINGE (which doesn't automatically mean pseudoscholarship, just fringe scholarship), and standards for inclusion should be lowered appropriately. Of course we still shouldn't include random personal websites, but self-published books and similar should be ok. --dab (𒁳) 11:57, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

So what is the threshold then? Can just any fringe writer add their stuff? I'm not sure what 'and similar' above means. I'd like to see some evidence that other people have noted an idea before it can stay or go in. Some of the stuff is in academic journals, etc and clearly has a place. And should it have the category history of board games? Doug Weller (talk) 13:20, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I've deleted those of the claims which are clearly self-published - consideration as to their merits is besides the pointLeContexte (talk) 15:17, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I think you're right, Doug, that the entriess should either be bona fide academic ideas (however speculative) or notable in that there is a third-party mention. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:22, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Applied kinesiology

Are the "scientific" viws represented really typical, or is there cherrypicking going on? Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 13:52, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

It's clear that a lot of work has gone into that article, and it seems to make a strong effort at neutrality. Perhaps you should start by raising your concerns on the talk page. Looie496 (talk) 17:30, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Looie496 :). I think I have not checked that article since before Anthon01 was banned, so there is a good chance that the article oversells the practice. There have been some studies (even a couple funded by other than the NCCAM or AK organizations), but no one has ever proposed a rational mechanism for action or demonstrated validity (or even reproducibility) of diagnosis or any of that good stuff. - Eldereft (cont.) 21:34, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Gnosis

This article is in bad shape and has POV problems. I did some editing of it a couple of days ago, which all got reverted this morning by and editor who seems to have a dislike of other editors working on the article [44]. Attention from some additional editors might help with getting a more balanced article. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 15:00, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

By the way, the problem with this article brings up once again the problem discussed above [[45]]. I have a choice between leaving a very problematic article with fringe problems alone, or I can revert unwarranted and unexplained changes, and see if the other editor, becomes willing to talk about the problems before Elonka, or some other administrator pops out of the woodwork and blocks me for giving a POV pushing editor a hard time. (You know, this situation really sucks...and I am not entirely sure WP is worth this sort of agrivation.) Malcolm Schosha (talk) 16:02, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I think you have a point -- if nothing else, the Hans Jonas quote is so long as to constitute a copyvio. However, I also think the views of Voegelin (which you seem to be advocating) are overweighted by at least an order of magnitude. I wouldn't want to get involved here if it comes down to a matter of competing POVs. Looie496 (talk) 17:27, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I am not advocating Voegelin, and have read nothing by him. I do not know much about Gnosticism either, and am not involved with the subject. But Eric Voegelin is an important 20th century scholar who wrote on Gnosticism, and therefore belongs in the article. If you look at the talk page you will see there was a long argument over including him. The editor who opposed his inclusion in the article has just added more material that is intended to discredit Voegelin, which is okay as long as it does not sidetrack the article (but at this point about half of the article is taken up with criticism of Voegelin). It is things like the problematic statements that connect Gnosticism with the Sufis, and with Buddhism and Hinduism that make the article fringe, as well as whole POV sections, like this [46], that need attention too -- although the section is so badly written it is difficult to understand what it says. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 18:20, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Howshua Amariel

Some amazing nonsense and self-publicity here. Not sure what to do about it. Doug Weller (talk) 15:41, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Make sure you read the talk page if you can bear to do it. This all looks self-published, eg [47]. The main author of the article and the family make a big thing of it being in the Library of Congress, claiming that the LoC says this and that about it. Doug Weller (talk) 16:09, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Should go straight to AfD I fear. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:20, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Agree. Google finds no usable sources. Looie496 (talk) 17:05, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I opened the AfD debate, please comment. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:43, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Atomidine

Most of the article consists of unsourced speculation by an editor - query if it should be pared down to a stub, deleted, or merged with Edgar Cayce.... LeContexte (talk) 16:40, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I have boldly reverted this back to the version of June 2007, which I think is not too horrible. Looie496 (talk) 17:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to even more boldly merge it into iodine trichloride, which is what it chemically really is. Mangoe (talk) 17:16, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Manuel Rosa

Appears to be a fringe writer with a lot of hype on the page. I've raised an AfD but in the fiction and arts category, which I think was wrong as it purports to be history (why can't we have a clear AfD category for history and archaeology, by the way?). What category should it be in? Thanks. Doug Weller (talk) 06:12, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Astrosociology

Someone please have a look at astrosociology. It managed to survive an AfD rather tenuously two years ago. I'd vote delete again, since the article fails to establish any significant scientific notability of the subject, but I thought I would bring it up here first. siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 17:59, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

The only source I see is to their own site, which was last updated on 09/30/2006. There is nothing at all to establish notability in the article. I don't see anything on the talk page about an AfD, and it is hard to see how one would fail for this article. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 18:48, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry. I gave the link to the AfD in my post: here it is a second time. siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 19:16, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, thanks. But it should be on the top of the article talk page, and I do not understand why it is not. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 20:12, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I misunderstood you. I think I will just be bold and nominate it again for AfD. Thanks, siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 20:16, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I suggest to move it to Sociology of outer space. We have a lot of other "sociology of" articles, and there is a recent contribution to this sub-specialism from a leading academic publisher: Dickens, Peter and Ormrod, James, Cosmic Society: Towards a Sociology of the Universe, Routledge, London 2007. This has been reviewed in several places, so there is a chance of expanding the article with additional good sources. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:42, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Death and Adjustment Hypotheses

Could some of you have a look at this page. This is a self-published book which is purported to have received one review in a scientific journal (not verified, see talk page), and for which I have found one review in a newspaper[48]. There are some 24 Google hits for it[49], so its notability can be questioned as well. In general, it reads to me like more fringe science than anything else, proposing a new diagnosis and so on. It is not extremely outlandish, but it does look all dubious to me, and certainly hasn't received much attention in mainstream or scientifc publications. Fram (talk) 09:31, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Addendum: it also is heavily spammed in Concept of death and adjustment. Even if not fringe, the attention it receives there is certainly removable per WP:UNDUE (and WP:COI). Fram (talk) 09:37, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Should probably be deleted; even if that review is eventually published, it doesn't seem notable enough. Vesal (talk) 12:07, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Note as well that the article was almost entirely written by the author of the book. Please AfD it if you want to. Looie496 (talk) 16:42, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Now nominated for deletion. Mangoe (talk) 18:24, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

And what do we think of Concept of death and adjustment. At a first reading it seemed to be an essay assembling lots of disparate ideas, and the title is awful. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:51, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Ugh! the first page is pointless, the second page taps into something that's been kicked around psychological circle for ages, but doesn't do it very well. If I were to work on the second, I'd retitle it Death (psychology) and and then add a psychology section to the death page and link it up. the mention of religion in this article, though, opens up a whole new kettle fish (because religious perspective on death are myriad). either way, it needs some serious work... --Ludwigs2 20:40, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

It strikes me on a quick glance as one big bundle of WP:OR. Mangoe (talk) 20:56, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

• Duly tagged, with merge suggested. But I don't think death-related articles in general are very good. Death and culture, the most likely merge target, strikes me as very confused. Moreschi (talk) 21:27, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

well, I'm busy for the next couple of weeks, but after that I'll try to take a look at it. I have enough knowledge of the topic to start straightening it out, at any rate. --Ludwigs2 21:33, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and nominated it for deletion. Mangoe (talk) 14:16, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Since you made it invisible to readers, it might be worth saying visibly that the article you nominated is Concept of death and adjustment. Looie496 (talk) 16:53, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Sri Lankan Ayurvedic tradition

Can some people have a look at this and see what they think? It's not very good, but it's probably salvageable. While we're at it, Ayurveda needs a cleanup again. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 23:07, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Also Maharishi Vedic Medicine.

biogenetic structuralism

This article is problematic. I believe that the topic is notable enough to justify a Wikipedia article, but the current article is full of cruft and lacks inline references. I can't see any way of improving it without hacking out major portions, and I wonder what others think. Looie496 (talk) 17:58, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Yuk. Essay. Wouldn't be surprised if there were a copyvio in there. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:47, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Assuming the primary author is who he claims to be, he added the material based on one of his publications -- see here. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 22:20, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Expanding Earth theory

I just came accross the Expanding Earth theory article today... some of you may be familiar with the idea since it seems like an old one, but I noticed that there are several problems. Most importantly it is named a theory, though I don't see any indication that it is any more than an out-dated hypothesis, and the terms "fringe" or "pseudoscience" appear nowhere in the article. I worked on the lead some, but I wouldn't want to make any huge changes without some other eyes on the article as well. Suggestions for moving forward? NJGW (talk) 21:43, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's a crappy old theory, but I still think it qualifies as a theory. People have gone to great lengths to explain the historical record using it, it makes testable predictions, and it provides an explanation for observed facts. Why don't you think it qualifies as a theory?—Kww(talk) 21:51, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

The article reads "The primary objections to Expanding Earth Theory centered around the lack of an accepted process by which the Earth's radius could increase and on the inability to find an actual increase of earth's radius by modern measurements," not to mention the problem that (to explain how dinosaurs could have been so big) the concept implies that either Earth's mass is growing with its volume OR the gravitational constant of the universe has been growing over time. NJGW (talk) 21:54, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

How about just Expanding Earth, similar to Flat Earth? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 21:55, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I tried to make some adjustments including some points that the idea was never really entertained. There is quite a lot of original research going on in that article. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Your efforts have been reverted by User:Cygnis insignis, I've asked him to comment here. Vsmith (talk) 19:34, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

The thing is badly written, and does not have a neutral tone in the lead. I tried to rewrite it, but got reverted. The most important thing about it is what it says, obviously. The second most important thing is what people say about it. See what you think of this diff [50] ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 03:38, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

The latest revision is better, it's important to say right off that the idea is obsolete. Doug Weller (talk) 06:26, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Cold fusion help

There is a REALLY BIG problem with WP:OWN at cold fusion. I am the only editor there who has not drunk the Kool Aid, it seems. Outside eyes would really help. I have made some removal of obviously POVPUSHING material in the lead and in the "evidence for cold fusion" sections, but we really need to clean house there. These SPAs are dedicated and coordinated by NET and other outside websites to drive the Wikipedia article on cold fusion into a state where it is unrecognizable as reliable, verifaible, or neutral.

PLEASE HELP!

ScienceApologist (talk) 18:50, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

There is a problem here. Large chunks of the article give far more credence to the fringe claims of cold fusion advocates than is merited. The perspective needs altering to that of "history of (pseudo) science" article. Basically, bringing into line with WP:FRINGE is required: that fringe theories are written about as such. Moreschi (talk) 22:54, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I suggested elsewhere reverting to the last definite GA version, which was in May 2008, and proceding from there. Any thoughts on that? NJGW (talk) 23:29, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, I think that there is one really good expert editor we have that could revamp the entire article beautifully: Kirk shanahan. Unfortunately, he has not been treated so kindly by the usual suspects. The GA version itself is not ideal and even though Dank55 had the best interests of all in mind, he really took the "write by committee" aspect of Wikipedia too far and ended up with an article that he wasn't happy with while the cf-proponents could CROW about their accomplishments. I think the best thing to do is to delist the GA, start excising the material that is sourced solely to cold fusion proponents (which is a bucketload), and begin to reposition the article as Moreschi suggests. ScienceApologist (talk) 13:18, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I despair of both sides on this one and I think that we should find out what User:Seicer, who was around to moderate, thinks about it. SA's been critical of his input and I don't know why. Kirk shanahan has been very useful, I agree, but he's still a relative newbie on WP, and it needs some care when someone researching in the field is editing. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:44, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Seicer has driven professional scientists off of Wikipedia through his refusal to accept that people may know more than him about certain scientific subjects. He sent me one of the meanest e-mails I've ever received in my life regarding cold fusion. That he's an admin is absurd. He's one of the worst moderators I've ever come across. ScienceApologist (talk) 15:51, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Chiropractic help needed

Talk:Chiropractic#General_comments_and_observations. That pretty much sums up the problem. Apparently people are using "consensus" to try to feet-drag, drive-by-revert, tag-team, etc. We need neutral, outside parties who are willing to wield clue-sticks in defense of Wikipedia policies and guidelines other than WP:CON. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:47, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I've been following that from afar ever since Elonka blocked me for not even editing that article... pretty treacherous waters. Would it make sence to bring the foot-draggers before Arb-com, or some similar intervention? NJGW (talk) 20:57, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I suggested as much on the talkpage. I think it may be the only reasonable solution. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:19, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Arbitration will not solve content disputes. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 21:52, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't really see a content dispute, I see a POV pusher who won't give in. Arbitration should give guidelines for dealing with those who refuse to acknowledge consensus, and can label them as disruptive (see also the essay Wikipedia:Civil POV pushing).

Hey, and that last link lead me to a new one (for me)... wp:PARITY. Looks like a good one for excising the fringe from the wheat: "For example, the lack of peer-reviewed criticism of creation science should not be used as a justification for marginalizing or removing scientific criticism of creation science since peer-reviewed journals routinely reject submissions relating to the subject... Fringe views may be excluded from articles on mainstream subjects to the extent that they are excluded by reliable sources on those subjects." NJGW (talk) 22:45, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

The Philadelphia Experiment

I watched the film The Philadelphia Experiment (which wasn't as bad as I was expecting), and in trying to find out who some of the actors were I came across the page "Philadelphia Experiment" which seems badly in need of a reality check... For example, not sourced and in the lead: "It is said, though not proven, that the ship was dismantled and the crew placed in an insane asylum to keep these events secret." At least it says "not proven" :) Verbal chat 19:54, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Wow: "said but not proven". If the bar for inclusion is simply that a thought has been uttered verbally, we're in trouble. :) MastCell ^Talk 21:08, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I didn't utter nuffin :) Verbal chat 10:38, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Medical degree

• Medical degree (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - The editor User:Naturstud is a Naturopath from Canada who has been editing a lot of medically related pages to include information about naturopathy. I have no problem with this in general and is fine. However, he has been a tendentious editor and has been including a lot of misleading information in the article Medical degree suggesting that those who hold a degree in "naturopathy or naturopathic medicine" (a degree he himself holds) are equivalent to "medical doctors" and that he feels the naturopathy degree that he holds should be classified and listed as a "medical degree" along side the MD, DO, and MBBS degrees (WikiCOI). The World Health Organization WHO/IMED disagrees and they have created an internationally recognized list of what is and is not considered a "medical degree". This list published by the WHO is utilized by the "board of medicine" in pretty much every country in the world. They use this list as a guide to decide who holds a recognized "medical degree" and who is eligible and who is not eligible for a "medical license". Naturopathy is not on this list. Naturopathic medicine is classified as a "complementary and alternative medical practice" along side Chinese medicine, homeopathic medicine, reiki, ayurveda, acupuncture, etc. Naturstud refuses to list his degree along side these other professions even though they are always grouped together, he instead insists on classifying his degree as a "medical degree" even though it is not recognized as such. Naturopaths are allowed to register with the state "board of Naturopathic Medicine" (in those few regions which regulate the profession). However, this is completely different from the state "board of Medicine". This is similar to a dentist (another type of "health care professional") who also holds a license through the state "board of dental medicine"; this however does not mean that a dentist holds a "medical license" to "practice medicine" from a state "board of medicine". They hold a "dental license" just like a naturopath is (in a few regions) allowed to hold a "naturopathic license". Only graduates with "medical degrees" from one of the the WHO/IMED listed world medical schools who have obtained a certificate from the ECFMG[51] are allowed to apply for a "medical license".

Myself and a few other editors have agreed to allow Naturstud to edit the article Medical degree to include his degree with the only exception that he also equally include ALL other "complementary and alternative medicine" professional degrees, diplomas, and certificates equally as per Wiki (NPOV) policy. He refuses and has continued to push and promote his profession on wikipedia at the expense of others.

Could we please have some assistance cleaning up or rewriting this article to better comply with NPOV policy?

• I feel we should either:
  • 1) Re-write the guidelines to include ONLY "medical degree"s as is "internationally recognized" for the "practice of medicine" as per the internationally accepted WHO Directory of Medical Schools/FAIMER International Medical Education Directory . As only graduates of medical schools in these lists are permitted to apply for medical licensure. or
  • 2) the only alternative being to include a list of ALL alternative and complementary medical practitioners in order to keep this list fair and balanced (WP:NPOV). We can either maintain the article title of Medical degree or an alternate suggestion was changing the title of the article to Healthcare degrees in order to better suit an all inclusive list.

Thank you for your help. Jwri7474 (talk) 05:00, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

This isn't the right place. If discussion hasn't worked, you should do an RFC, and if that doesn't work, you should take the problem to wp:ani. If he is editing against a consensus of several editors, though, you will probably find it simpler to just revert on sight—always using an edit message like "reverting edit that ignores talk page consensus—until something gives one way or another. Just make sure that it is he who violates 3RR instead of you. Looie496 (talk) 05:38, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your assistance! Jwri7474 (talk) 05:40, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Sure it's right, and it seems to have worked, too. He needed editors used to dealing with fringe stuff. And please do not recommend edit warring. What Looie496 is advocating is against both the spirit and letter of Wikipedia policy and the best parts of its culture. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 23:05, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

No, if it's cut and dry refusal to accept consensus, then more of the same consensus isn't going to help. Revert when appropriate, let others do the same, help the block process if they go over 3rr, open RFC/ANI if they don't stop. That's the normal process around here. This noticeboard is for more complex issues. NJGW (talk) 23:20, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Absent administrators with courage (which is definitely the case here at Wikipedia) it is impossible to do otherwise. NJGW and Looie are right. If it truly is consensus then the disruptive editor will find themselves on the wrong side of a continually reverted article by a wide range of people. The sad thing about Wikipedia is that tag teaming is the only way to get anything done since dispute resolution is essentially a joke. ScienceApologist (talk) 13:13, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's a matter of courage --I've seen admins show great courage on a number of occasions (not always well-directed). It's mainly a matter of disfunctional mechanisms. Ultimately what is needed are things like (1) a mandatory dispute resolution process simpler than RFC-followed-by-ANI, (2) a mechanism for moderated editing of highly controversial articles, and (3) a mechanism by which a given assertion can be officially designated as a "fringe hypothesis" per wp:fringe. Looie496 (talk) 16:38, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a good system to me. I suppose we could try to invent it and make people follow it. That might ruffle enough feathers to get people to start noticing the issue. ScienceApologist (talk) 17:35, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Out of Australia?

Not really competent in this area, but an edit summary like clarify that scholars regard all this as nonsense always catches my eye. Any opinions?—Kww(talk) 23:42, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the original view - that native Pacific and Australian people are part of the African diaspora - is worth mentioning. In which case the rebuttal would go too. Lefkowiz is a reliable source on Greek studies but not on this - never mind, delete the whole section. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:46, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Agree. Looie496 (talk) 00:07, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

No OR policy discussion

I have a question up at WT:NOR, so I noticed a long post commenting on a desire to change the policy. I didn't read it closely (and I didn't see any obvious problems) but then I saw that the same editor is canvassing the likes of Reddi (talk · contribs)[52] (an occasional "friend" of this board). If that's the kind of people being contacted (I didn't recognize the others), then people here might be interested in watching how the discussion plays out. NJGW (talk) 01:57, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Looks to be pretty much above the board. User:Slrubenstein, I think, is just covering all the bases: there doesn't seem to be an ideological party-line he's towing. I don't know why anyone would solicit Reddi for input, but there's nothing in principle wrong with it, I suppose. ScienceApologist (talk) 15:10, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

"Baron von Rothschild as Hitler's grandfather" claims

Since I'm still fairly new to Wikipedia I could use some help here.

The matter at hand concerns the following articles:

Alois Hitler
Maria Schicklgruber
Salomon Mayer von Rothschild

In all three articles, a tiny-minority view as referenced in WP:UNDUE was given inordinate weight and very likely should not be included at all (also per WP:UNDUE).

I removed the inappropriate text in the first two articles and left one paragraph in the third.

Two editors then challenged my actions and reverted my edits: User:Joyson Noel and User:MichaelCPrice. The first editor immediately barked at me, "Dont ever delete sourced info again" (see the edit history of Salomon Mayer von Rothschild), the second is also incivil and telling me "DO NOT REMOVE" and "You are not listening" (Talk:Alois Hitler).

I don't mind the incivility so much, but the fact is that yesterday I spent more than three hours in the library looking up sources and writing a detailed explanation, with numerous citations, why the "Rothschild as Hitler's grandfather" claim is a tiny-minority view that does not merit inclusion. Earlier, I also offered as a compromise proposal to let stand one paragraph (equipped with proper qualifications) on the claim.

Since then, User:MichaelCPrice has claimed that just because he called the information notable it must be included in the Article. User:Joyson Noel has been quiet since yesterday but neither has he indicated his agreement to the changes made by me.

Since I am unable to visit Wikipedia daily or monitor these articles on a regular basis, I am asking anyone who wants to help to please add them to your watchlist. Feel free also to let me know what else I could do and how I could improve my handling of such matters in the future. Thanks.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 12:52, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

What I also find troubling is that the nonsense was introduced more than a year ago on 1 Aug 2007 by an IP in the Lao People's Democratic Republic diff who on the same date inserted similar b.s. into a different WP article (now corrected by me). It seems that until now, none of the many editors who were involved spotted the problem. You can bet that Nazi and Islamist websites all over the world have been happily linking to the Wikipedia and claiming it as an authority. I don't care about the official WP disclaimers, to the average Internet user they make no difference.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 15:52, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I've no idea why Nazis would want to "happily link" to the claim that Adolf had a Jewish grandfather. I can't see Islamists being thrilled either. That suggestion (which dates to Hans Frank) is fringe enough, but probably notable. However this one is fringe of the fringe. Paul B (talk) 16:03, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Whether the Rothschild theory is bullshit (as Goodmorningworld claims) is beside the point, as I have repeatedly explained to Goodmorningworld. It is a notable theory by virtue of the extensive discussion it has engendered in the literature; hence it merits inclusion here. If it is bullshit I have no objection to why it is b.s. being explained in Wiki also -- along with sources of courses. --Michael C. Price ^talk 18:09, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Goodmorningworld, you neglected to say where the "detailed explanation" you wrote can be found. I looked at the Rothschild article talk page, but it isn't there. Looie496 (talk) 21:12, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Eh? If you went to Talk:Salomon Mayer von Rothschild, you should have seen this:

For the sceptical: see Talk:Alois Hitler for an exhaustive discussion, with numerous citations, of why the Rothschild idea is a fringe, tiny-minority view.

--Goodmorningworld (talk) 12:04, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Except that there is no "extensive discussion it has engendered in the literature". Biographies of Hitler do not mention it. At most they mention the generic Jewish grandfather theory mentioned by Frank. There were lots of rumours flying around before and during the war years. They are not notable enough for detailed discussion unless they continue to be the subject of discussion. Paul B (talk) 23:01, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

IP vandals have jumped on Alois Hitler and Maria Schicklgruber. If an admin is reading here, could you grant me rollback so that I can rollback the damage, or perform the rollback yourself? Thanks.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 12:25, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

The IP edits are not vandalism. The ones at Alois Hitler seem to be corrections of name spellings and the like). They may be incorrect (I would not know), but they are not vandalism. The edits at Maria Schicklgruber relate to the issue you have raised here over the Rothchild theory... thus the edit is simply a continuation of the content dispute, not IP vandalism... however, I have reverted the edit as giving Undue Weight to the Fringe Theory. Blueboar (talk) 14:32, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Aspartame controversy

Seems designed to push the view that all research refuting claims that aspartame as it's usually used is dangerous, are funded by the sugar substitute industry and thus corrupt, plus other language designed to push the theory. I think it's been like that for years. I tend to avoid these sort of articles due to the unpleasant rows involved, but thought I'd bring it here for your attention. Sticky Parkin 14:43, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

This looks like a WP:POVFORK of aspartame. I redirected, and we'll see if it sticks. ScienceApologist (talk) 15:07, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Longstanding disaster area. I wish luck to anyone interested in fixing it. For an encapsulation of the problem, look no further than the external links section. The links are divided into "pro-aspartame" and "anti-aspartame". The "pro-aspartame" link is to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. The "anti-asparatame" links are to www.holisticmed.com and www.thetruthaboutstuff.com. But hey, who's to say one is more credible than the other? Let's just put them on a completely equal footing. MastCell ^Talk 16:46, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I looked at it months/a year ago and tried to NPOV but I was reverted, so gave up. At least the huge flakey bibliography and external links, which weren't in an encyclopaedic style, have been cleaned up since then. I think theres some WP:OWN going on, and not by people you'd expect. Wow you've done loads of work! Thanks.:) Sticky Parkin 00:04, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Did you know that if you put a single grain of aspartame in twenty gallons of water, then drink a cup of the result, you'll cure cancer? Pretty awesome, if you ask me. Badger Drink (talk) 04:30, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Werner Gitt's Biography

Werner Gitt's biography has been edited to suggest his pseudoscientific ideas on information theory are well founded.

I have reverted the recent edits. I'll watchlist the article and speak up if the cruft comes back. Looie496 (talk) 21:08, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to Increase the Reliability of Wikipedia through Enforcement of Existing Policies

There is an interesting proposal being discussed on WP:AN of relevance to people here. Yours, Verbal chat 12:22, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Colon cleansing

Recently there have been repeated attempts to add unverified and unverifiable crap (ahem) to this article. It's not out of hand but could use a little more watching. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 15:42, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, could be worse. Sorry, couldn't resist.--Ramdrake (talk) 15:53, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Watchlisted. MastCell ^Talk 18:50, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Water ionizer

There's an account known as Water Ionizer Research (talk · contribs) who is charitably adding neutral, accurate information to the water ionizer article and valiantly defending it from the horrible editors who would sully the page with the suggestion that claims water ionizers can cure cancer are ridiculous quackery.

Just kidding, there's a slow-burning edit war on the page, much of it centering in an external link that calls water ionization claims bunk [53]. Looks like classic fringe - extreme claims, minimal proof, gross over-reaching of what research exists, and lots of promotion and spamlinks continually inserted. Anyone have any expertise? WLU (t) (c) ^{(rules - simple rules)} 20:20, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah, the acid-alkaline theory of health. It never ceases to fill me with a sense of shame for the failures of my country's public-education system. I'm always tempted to explain that the most effective (and cheapest) way to "alkalinize" your body is by hyperventilating - though even then, your kidneys will eventually adapt and excrete more bicarbonate over time, plus you look silly. Sigh. MastCell ^Talk 22:22, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Not to mention collapsing, unconsciousness, theoretically wouldn't it also lead to osteoporosis? WLU (t) (c) ^{(rules - simple rules)} 23:58, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Help with the Syriac kids please?

The problem as it presents itself to any sane observer: Some Syriac Christians think they are "Aramaeans" and reject the name "Assyrians", while others think they are "Assyrians" and reject the name "Aramaeans". Both endorse the name "Syriacs". This means we get lots of WP:CFORKs on the same group, one copy under "Aramaean-Syriac", the other under "Assyrian", and we get a lot of edit wars by both factions claiming the term "Syriac", which recently has meant piping "Syriac $ISSUE" to "Aramean-Syriac $ISSUE". This is a pure naming issue, the group discussed being the exact same. These kids have the bad taste to go and create a fork of Assyrian genocide at Syriac genocide just to make a WP:POINT.

The proper way to treat this as a bona fide dispute would be {{move}} discussions based on actual sources. Instead, we get a fork orgy by angry young men spewing vitriol at one another and any bystander. As if this wasn't bad enough, we now also have textbook "clueless admins" stepping in in weird ways, refusing to grok even as much of the issue as summarized right above (look at the history of Aramaean-Syriac people and this diff).

Only a zero-tolerance on content forking, and reward of valid and coherent renaming requests can help in this. I have been doing this with angelic patience for a year now, but I cannot work against the "clueless admin" population as well as against the teenage patriots, and I shouldn't be required to babysit admins as well as pov-pushers. Help is appreciated. --dab (𒁳) 12:00, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

note, this problem would be on-topic on the "nationalistic feuds" noticeboard, if that was active. I take it this board is the de facto nearest thing we have. Perhaps I should cross-post the problem somewhere else? --dab (𒁳) 12:02, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Did you try AfD? I may be wrong, but I think if an AfD on Aramaean-Syriac People ends with "merge", and there is a clear closing comment saying that this is because it's a content fork, then you should be in a good position to ensure the page is, and remains, a redirect. Perhaps you could even protect the redirect in this case, or someone else would do it for you. (Of course you may have tried similar things before. In that case sorry for bringing it up.) --Hans Adler (talk) 13:40, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Not to mention that [54] is almost entirely written in low-grade broken English. If this hasn't sorted itself out when I get back from a break (Friday, that is), I'll do something about it. Moreschi (talk) 00:27, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

A longstanding problem. Years ago I even created a user account on German Syriac web forum to explain Wikipedia policy and make their community leaders influence the angry young men. Shortlasting results didn't exactly reward the efforts taken. --Pjacobi (talk) 09:04, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring at Wikipedia:Fringe theories

There's been some edit warring at Wikipedia:Fringe theories, and Elonka has already gone after SA for it (many of you may know this already for having his page watched). Some of the ones pushing against him are some usual fringe suspects will be familiar to those who watch this board regularly. NJGW (talk) 17:14, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

I am cautioning multiple editors, not just ScienceApologist. Major changes to guidelines should be discussed at the talkpage first. ScienceApologist in particular has been edit-warring to force through major changes at the guideline, but hasn't posted a single message at the talkpage since August. --Elonka 17:18, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Isn't the normal editing process supposed to begin with being bold? What I notice is that those who reverted him have for the most part not stated their issues with the changes he made. NJGW (talk) 17:23, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

I was the first one to revert the edits which ScienceApologist made. That presumably means NJGW is referring to me when he speaks of "some usual fringe suspects". I stated my reasons in the edit summary, briefly but comprehensibly. I object strongly to NGJW's ignorant and unwarranted description of me, which is a clear breach of WP:AGF. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 17:33, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict reply to NJGW) See Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience. This is an ongoing situation where Wikipedia is being used as a battleground, so certain topics (and editors) are on a shorter leash. --Elonka 17:35, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

I too take objection to NJGW's characterization. As I was one of the "reverters", I assume that he is labelling be one of the "usual fringe suspects". I am not a supported of the fringe POV. I am a supporter NPOV and CON, both of which were ignored by the edits which I reverted. Being bold is one thing, but once an editor sees that their boldness is contested/reverted, the next step should be to engage in discussion. Instead - in this case - the editorchose to edit-war and make personal attacks. We cannot tolerate such poor behavior. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 17:46, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

"Usual fringe suspects" means people that have come up on this board before. I thought that would be obvious. NJGW (talk) 17:56, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Can we please get away from discussing editors, and back to discussing content? --Elonka 18:00, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

I would encourage Elonka to follow her own advice concerning fringe theories, particularly for Race and intelligence. She has invited Ludwigs2 to edit this article (he declined) and has characterized the editors on the talk page, which have for some time concentrated on locating mainstream academic sources, as "bickering". Elsewhere she has repeatedly and unapologetically described them as a "lynch mob". Not once has she commented on content. Meanwhile the article has been recently edited by an indefinitely blocked user (Muntuwandi - aka User:Shambalala) and by User:Captain Occam, also a possible sockpuppet of an indefinitely blocked user. I hope that no administrators are actually sympathetic with those pushing the ideas of eugenics and dysgenics, two of the main proponents of which are Rushton and Lynn, both of whom have actively involved themselves with the far right group American Renaissance. Their ideas and the way in which they have been received by the mainstream academic community (in book reviews, for example) should of course be reported dispassionately and neutrally in this encyclopedia, if the need arises. Mathsci (talk) 12:15, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

This is also being discussed here at ANI. I suggest the behaviour issues are dealt with (if still needed after Elonka's warnings) at ANI, the wording of the guideline is discussed here at WT:FRINGE, and this discussion closed as there is no specific fringe theory being discussed. Carcharoth (talk) 05:44, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

The main page WP:FRINGE has now been locked by seicer. User:Ludwigs2 has taken it upon himself to revamp the guidelines "from head to tail" at Wikipedia:Fringe theories/sandbox. I wonder whether Elonka can appreciate the irony in this particular editor preparing a completely new version of these WP guidelines? Mathsci (talk) 07:53, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Low level edit war at Chemtrail conspiracy theory

Needs an eye on it, but I'm travelling right now. Thanks, Verbal chat 22:45, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Clouds, and thus contrails, consist of liquid and solid water, not vapor. - Atmoz (talk) 19:50, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't that particular edit I was referring to, but there does seem to be a lot of activity and this has now been mentioned on ANI. Verbal chat 09:51, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Update After returning from a block, a user is making more fallacious arguments on this page and disrupting the article. Any help appreciated as he thinks my dismissal of his laundry list of complaints isn't good enough. Apparently the article isn't neutral as the only sources against chemtrtails are either governmental (gasp) or skeptical (by definition...?) Verbal chat 15:07, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

WP:FRINGE

There's been a lot of rewrites and additions to this recently, and many of them seem to encourage fringe theories to be described credulously. I think that the last week's changes need some review. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 03:00, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

The page has been protected, so edits are limited to talk page discussion. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 12:53, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

The protect is a good thing. Discussions continue at the talk pages... those who participate at this noticeboard should get involved in those discussions. Blueboar (talk) 13:10, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Fringe theory: Magnetospheric eternally collapsing object

This article is very long and in need of a big clean up. It is currently very biased in tone and lacks reliable references for notability outside of the work of one man. Thanks, Verbal chat 09:53, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Ortega (genealogy)

This surname Ortega is extremely common among Spanish speakers throughout the world. The article Ortega explains the etymology of the surname (from Latin urtica), with examples from other Romance languages. The article Ortega (genealogy) was created as a Wikipedia:Fork by a contributor who believes that all Ortegas derive from one family line. The genealogical information looks erroneous. It is not sourced well. Considering the etymology of the name and examples in other Romance languagues (including Italian, Mario Ortica, etc.) the claim that all the Spanish examples derive from one line seems quite unbelievable. The Spanish surname derives from a nickname apparently common among Romance peoples, from Vulgar Latin-speaking people who nicknamed people after the urtica. Later this nickname became a surname. However the claim that all the Spanish Ortegas come from one line seems ridiculous. Ortega (genealogy) is fringe. A is putting the smack down (talk) 04:17, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Makes sense to me -- but the first step is to raise the point on the talk page of the article, and only take it to a discussion board if the result is unsatisfactory. Looie496 (talk) 04:58, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, but who will read it there besides the contributor who continually reverted my changes without comment? :) See the edit history of Ortega. A is putting the smack down (talk) 05:02, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Ortega (genealogy) may be Original research, not even qualifying as fringe at least. A is putting the smack down (talk) 05:04, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

You're probably right on the issues, but you've been handling this badly. You've been edit-warring, you've been labeling changes as vandalism when they are not, and you've made no attempt to open communication. I'm personally dubious about the whole thing, given the general story that names of aristocracy are most commonly derived from place names, but in any case, it would be easier to help you if you would take a less violent approach. Looie496 (talk) 05:42, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you know how many Ortegas there are on this planet? There are countless in Los Angeles alone, from the campus of USC to the Los Angeles County Jail. It's exactly like saying that all Lopez's are one family. The scenario is that the name existed before any such aristocratic line arose, and not all Ortegas trace back to that line. What evidence has been assembled for the claim that they all trace to one line? Annd the etymology from a place name then treats the examples in other Romance languages as irrelevant, when in fact the examples in other Romance languages indicate the historical reality. A is putting the smack down (talk) 06:03, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

The person's information was so bad he didn't even know about the examples in other Romance languages (Ortica, Ortie, Urzica) and he was promoting an imbecilic derivation of Ortega from the Latin word Fortuna, an obvious folk etymology. I suspect that all his information is basically erroneous. A is putting the smack down (talk) 06:24, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Check this out, not just other Romance parellels. There are also parellels between Basque language names and Spanish names, such as Ochoa (see article). There is also a parellel here, I found the Basque surname Asin; Asin is the Basque word for the urtica/nettle. See the Basque name Jose Maria Asin. I'm telling you guys, the nickname/surname is old, much older than any aristocratic line, and not exclusive to such a line. It was popular among the Vulgar Latin people who became the Spanish. Before Romanization they spoke a language similar to Basque, and Basque naming practices survived. But leaving aside pre-Roman influence, the examples in other Romance languages are also there. I'm going to eventually get more information to back up my position. Till then I am letting you guys know that I suspect that Ortega (genealogy) is erroneous. A is putting the smack down (talk) 07:06, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

There is even a place in Aragon, Spain called Asín. I will check the etymology of that place name eventually. A is putting the smack down (talk) 07:24, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I apologize for that edit summary, I regret it, especially because he was editing an article on his surname which is dear to him. However I had some bad experiences last year and a few weeks ago a friend of mine was murdered. When I was reverted twice without comment I felt like venting. That is very disrespectful to revert like that without comment (and to add to it, the same day I was having the same experience with another anonymous contributor at Vulgar Latin vocabulary). I hate it when I say or do stuff like that because it's hard to take it back, but if life was nicer with me, I would be nicer with others. And you guys should come up with a quick way to erase edit summaries and comments like that so we can forget all about them. A is putting the smack down (talk) 08:04, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

The Ortega surname has a connection with Aragon, where Asin is located, see [55]. Aragon is one of the regions of Spain that historically had the most Basque people, Basque people who have the surname Asin (Latin urtica, old dialectical Spanish ortega). A is putting the smack down (talk) 08:39, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

By the way, the way this website works is you type in the surname and it tells you how a particular family shield looks. For Ortiz it lists three different shields, three different lines [56]. Now if someone puts one particular shield for Ortiz in the Ortiz article and claims they are one line, he is wrong. For Ortega the website lists a shield, a line from Aragon[57]. That is not to say all Ortegas are of that Aragonese line. And I think the Ortega (genealogy) article doesn't even deal with the Aragonese line although Aragon is mentioned in the infobox and the shield is the shield described as Aragonese. A is putting the smack down (talk) 09:27, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I sympathize with Alex -- it is bad enough that we have very few editors with philological expertise, but too often they are also jumped upon by the ever-increasing "clueless admin" population in the best "Randy in Boise" tradition. We really need to be doing something about this. Such as, impressing on new admins that they are to protect the editors with expertise. Wikipedia isn't a schoolyard where every kid has the same right to play. Admins need to learn that they should to kick out Randy in Boise -- yes, even if he is honestly convinced the Peloponnesian War was fought by sword-wielding skeletons -- in order to take weight off our valuable experts. --dab (𒁳) 09:31, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, dab. And I was really in a bad mood or else I wouldn't have embarassed myself by such a show of anger and saying something that can be very hurtful. I checked the surname Lopez, there are several armorial lines [58]. This does not mean that all Lopez's are one line, and a person with the surname may not have ancestry from any of those heraldic Lopez lines. See Lopez. A is putting the smack down (talk) 09:34, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

See also Miguel Asín Palacios, middle name Asin, from Zaragoza, Aragon. A is putting the smack down (talk) 10:40, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I've looked into it. It appears that the name Ortega can be traced to two Aragonese lineages of lower nobility, with two different coats of arms. Apparently they are attested from the 16th or 17th century. The 10th century stuff appears to be due to a lady Ortega Ramírez (given name), illegitimate daughter of king Ramiro II of León (r. 931-951) [59]. This medieval lady Ortega as far as I can see has nothing whatsoever to do with the surname. Also, the "Fortunate" etymology pushed by the anon is due to Mexican eccentric Gutierre Tibón, which means we can cite it as a curiosity, but it certainly doesn't have any philological credibility. --dab (𒁳) 10:45, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

The etymology as far as I can tell goes back to Latin urtica and Vulgar Latin nicknames, and usage of a name meaning "nettle" in Spain goes further back to Basques etc. Those two heraldic lines may have popularized the name. I haven't looked into this that much however, maybe the usage of the surname Ortega can be traced to two lines in Aragon, however this does not mean that all people with that surname descend in part from those lines. As in the case of many Spanish surnames, there are heraldic lines (Lopez has heraldic lines), yet the name just started out as a name, meaning "Son of Lupe", a name probably tracing back to numerous lines within a certain area where the dialectical Lope was used instead of Lobo. With Ortega, it is a dialectical variant of ortiga, probably a variant tracing to Aragon (seems obvious). A is putting the smack down (talk) 11:01, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

ultimately, there were (or are) lots of villages called Ortega in Spain. Anyone from one of these villages could be named de Ortega in the Early Modern period. The two lines of infanzones are just the only ones who had a coat of arms. I don't think this has anything to do with Basques. Ortega vs. Ortiga is just a spelling variant, hardly even "dialectal". In the 16th to 17th century, such spelling variants were the rule, not the exception. --dab (𒁳) 11:04, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Ah, villages? I did not take that into account. And I'm not very familiar with Spanish dialects and you're probably right. The Basque influence may have been just enough to make Ortega popular in Aragon (anyway doing research almost at random I found some possible correspodance between Asin/Aragon/Ortega), whereas Ortica, Ortie, and Urzica are not popular (although attested) among Italians, French, and Romanians. A is putting the smack down (talk) 11:09, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Dbachmann is excellente by the way :) On point. Excellent and quick research, he's so quick it almost surprises me sometimes :) It will take me awhile to discover the etymology of Asín/Asín (name) (whether it is in fact from the Basque word asin/osin/asun, meaning "nettle"), it's late here and I'll save that for tomorrow. Another point I will look into: when not ultimately derived from a toponym, maybe the reference was to some "stinging", "prickly", "antagonizing" quality of a person, reminiscent of the nettle. The Latin word urtica besides meaning "nettle" also had developed those figurative meanings [60], based on the prickly/stinging qualities of the nettle. A is putting the smack down (talk) 12:16, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Richard Rudgley

This article raised a few red flags with me, especially the glowing praise in the unreferenced parts. Needs verification, although I'm not saying this is necessarily a "fringe" author. --dab (𒁳) 09:09, 4 November 2008 (UTC)