Talk:Joe Biden

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RfC: Infobox picture

Considering a noticeable age difference between the current infobox picture and now, I think it might be time for an image change. I have a few proposals below. Thoughts? (Originally started by User:Cliffmore but without RfC template. At that time the lead image was his 2013 official portraint.[1] ) Kolya Butternut (talk) 18:19, 8 April 2020 (UTC)Kolya Butternut (talk) 04:04, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

--Cliffmore (talk) 01:02, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

I've placed this fourth photo here after adding the RfC template. Other crops can be made from the larger original photo. Kolya Butternut (talk) 18:28, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

I would support changing it to the second image.  Nixinova  T  C  07:37, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree. However, over at Hillary Clinton, editors opposed updating her 2009 picture until long after the 2016 election was over on the grounds that Secretary of State was the position for which she was most notable. It reminds me of official pictures of Kim Il Sung, which continued to show him as a young revolutionary until he finally died of old age. TFD (talk) 23:11, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Hard to say, I don't know what's more significant, his current run or his Vice Presidency. At some point his Vice Presidency may become less important than his current run but I don't know when that would switch over or if it already has. Geographyinitiative (talk) 05:36, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

I would say that if he wins a few primaries, then a change is definitely needed. There may be a need to change before that, but I'm not familiar with picture-switching policies.Geographyinitiative (talk) 06:04, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

our current pic ~is~ five or six years old. surely someone has something more up-to-date from so famous a person. Cramyourspam (talk) 23:43, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

• I oppose any change. The official picture is the proper one to use for a former vice-president of the United States.--Rusf10 (talk) 00:09, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose He is the former VP and his official portrait is the proper one to use. What's next? Are we gonna replace Bush or Clinton's official presidential picture as they age? Plot twist, we all age but that doesn't mean we have to change a distinguished politicians official portrait to a more recent pic. By that logic should we change Jimmy Carter infobox image? --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 05:45, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support 2nd one we have changed Bernie Sanders' "official" image. This is not a state department website, we don't need to use so-called "official images". We should use the more accurate (recent) one.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 06:22, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support I would support changing it to the second image. Telluride (talk) 21:26, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
• Support second photograph as best depicting the subject. While VP is the highest office that he's held, I would argue that he is roughly equally notable for his senatorial career, his vice presidency, and his candidacy for president. - MrX 🖋 16:21, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
  • MrX, do you know how to reopen this RfC?  I added a new photo too.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 16:51, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

Kolya Butternut The RfC was never closed. - MrX 🖋 16:57, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose #2, Support #3 His face now takes up way too much space in the infobox, it's kind of terrifying. — Goszei (talk) 00:40, 10 February 2020 (UTC).
• Support any of them, He is relevant now in the political realm and to oppose the change gives anybody ignorant of his current age a wrongful impression. There should be a picture of him when he served as Vice President somewhere in the article to associate with that time period. But arguing that it shouldn't be changed. because he was Vice President makes it sound like his relevancy now is moot. -- EliteArcher88 (talk) 22:52, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
• Support The third image. Also, he is at a healthier distance. This is a really trivial issue. The other two too obviously reveal his beautiful veneers. No sense in provoking an ageist debate on here. -Random person at the City of Camarillo Public Library — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.79.113.210 (talk) 00:09, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
• Support Image 3. As his official portrait is unlikely to be reintroduced to the infobox, I would support the third image as his face does not take up much space there. Lochglasgowstrathyre (talk) 20:24, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
• Support 3 It's the best picture; it demonstrates him in action. ~ HAL333 22:14, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
• Support updated photo. I don't think his VP photo should be used because he is famous at his current age and known now for running for president. I think if he loses and falls out of the spotlight it could go back to his VP photo because that's how he'll be remembered. Like after movie star dies we can go back to a younger photo from when they were most famous, like an obituary photo. That being said, I think the three choices aren't very good. I've found a better one (which is still less than ideal because he's facing to the right and not wearing a suit). Other crops can be made if it's too close.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 02:19, 1 April 2020 (UTC) [[File:Joe_Biden_(48554137807)_(cropped).jpg|90px|thumb|right|

While my first choice is the fourth photo, my second choice is his official VP photo because the others are so poor.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 02:04, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

• Comment Why not use one of his offical portraits [2] or [3]. I mean he was the vice president for 8 years and most other articles on those who have held high political postions use the offical portraits. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk?

This RfC is precisely discussing whether to change the lead image from his official photo as vice president to something more recent. When this RfC began the lead image was the official portrait from 2013.[4] Kolya Butternut (talk) 03:58, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

We have an official portrait from when he was an officeholder. There is no need to resort to lower-quality images. This is not a difficult choice. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 14:25, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 March 2020

Remove the word SEGREGATIONIST in reference to Biden's bill with Thomas Eagleton. Specifically, change the sentence:

In 1977, Biden co-sponsored an amendment alongside segregationist Thomas Eagleton (D-MO) to close loopholes in Byrd's amendment.

to the following:

In 1977, Biden co-sponsored an amendment alongside Thomas Eagleton (D-MO) to close loopholes in Byrd's amendment.

From Eagleton's Wiki article there is no mention of him being a segregationist. To the contrary, he was anything but one. https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Thomas_Eagleton Thinkbanq (talk) 19:49, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

I agree. The term segregationist normally refers to Southern Democrats who until the 1960s supported laws that kept the races separate. It was no longer relevant to this time period. TFD (talk) 20:51, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

I removed it. Thanks for calling this to our attention. -- MelanieN (talk) 21:10, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

New sexual assault allegations

In the wake of the new allegations by Reade - which has been covered by many reliable news sources - there has been and will continue to be politicized efforts to remove the information from Wikipedia. Administrators take notice. https://www.pastemagazine.com/politics/joe-biden/joe-biden-has-been-accused-of-graphic-sexual-assau/ https://theintercept.com/2020/03/24/joe-biden-metoo-times-up/ YouCanDoBetter (talk) 20:25, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Those are not good sources for controversial BLP content. See WP:BLPSOURCES. - MrX 🖋 01:04, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Paste Magazine may not be a good source for this. The Intercept does not contain any more perceptible bias than mainstream news sources. A disgruntled readers' feelings that there is bias does not make it so. YouCanDoBetter (talk) 02:35, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

The Intercept does not meet the Verfiability Standards WP:SOURCE to publish controversial content without confirmation. 2601:601:8000:9B0:E130:8887:C8F9:77A7 (talk) 02:23, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Tara Reade

Take note that the current version of the page has removed mention of Tara Reade entirely, not only her detailed sexual assault allegations from March of 2020 but also her taking part in the wave of allegations from the spring of 2019. Does anyone support this? YouCanDoBetter (talk) 20:44, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

It is unsupportable and will be taken to the proper noticeboards if this happens again. petrarchan47คุก 22:15, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

The content in question is not supported by RS and should be removed ASAP. There is one RS: A Business Insider piece that briefly mentions her in a piece that mentions every allegation against Biden. Petrarchan47 has violated the 24-hr BRD restrictions on this article by immediately restoring the challenged content. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 00:27, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

I did not "wholesale restore" the content as you claimed on my talk page, I improved some sources, which was your less-than-informative edit summary claiming all sources were insufficient. And why did you remove Biden's longstanding rebuttal? This feels like a careless act, your wholesale removal of an hour's worth of my work. Please take your time and comment on each complaint/source/removal so that I can address them. petrarchan47คุก 01:46, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Can someone show several impeccable sources to demonstrate that this meets WP:DUEWEIGHT. We need to seer very clear of sources like Paste Magazine and the Intercept, in my opinion. We also need to adhere to what sources actually write. If this worth including, it should trivial to find good sources. - MrX 🖋 01:03, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

[edit conflict] Can you explain why you think The Intercept fails WP:RS? You can search the NB archives for a section supporting your stance, otherwise I would open a new thread on the matter. To my knowledge it is considered highly reputable.

Here is an article on Yahoo from Refinery29 quoting addressing your question as to whether sparse mention in media is equivalent to a lack of due weight (or encyclopedic importance): Reade’s accusation has opened up discourse on social media about why the mainstream media is ignoring the story. “I don’t understand why the extremely serious sexual assault allegations against Joe Biden are not getting significant attention outside of left media,” tweeted Vox Senior Correspondent Zack Beauchamp.

We have the proper sources and enough of them to support the mention of this case and the new developments. The sources meet RS requirements, and it is a violation of WP:NPOV to block the addition of (some form of) this material. petrarchan47คุก 01:46, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Petrarchan47, The Intercept has a clear pro-Bernie bias. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:01, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes, and an anti-establishment bias. Their political articles tend to have an invective tone, and often promote marginal viewpoints. - MrX 🖋 02:18, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

If you want to play this game, we can sit here all day and talk about pro-establishment Fox, anti-establishment Huffington Post, pro-establishment CNN, etc. It does not matter what slant you think you perceive. It is reliable. YouCanDoBetter (talk) 02:32, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Someone sort it out. It's unacceptable that an assault charge - explicitly laid out in a verifiable interview - that details behavior tangibly different than previous harassment charges is not included. Here are the sources, find consensus on what is considered "reliable". And let me be the first to put my vote against turning away The Intercept as an unreliable source.

https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/489719-tara-reade-discusses-biden-allegation-with-hilltvs-rising

https://thefederalist.com/2020/03/26/hollywoods-me-too-group-turned-down-biden-sexual-assault-accuser/

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/he-penetrated-me-with-his-fingers-joe-biden-accused-of-sexual-assault/

https://theintercept.com/2020/03/24/joe-biden-metoo-times-up/

https://www.democracynow.org/2020/3/26/headlines/the_intercept_times_up_legal_defense_fund_refused_to_support_metoo_allegation_against_joe_biden YouCanDoBetter (talk) 01:34, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Those are not mainstream RS references. When the story has been vetted and published in mainstream RS, please show us the relevant links. SPECIFICO talk 01:43, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, Specifico, The Intercept and The Hill are considered mainstream and more importantly, reliable. As are Democracy Now and Law and Crime. It is on you to prove your claim to the contrary. Has this been established at the RS NB? petrarchan47คุก 01:48, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

It's not "on" anyone to prove BLP material is unsourced. It's on the editor advocating BLP content to demonstrate the highest level of Reliable Sourcing. Intercept is nowadays more or less an angry and often childish anti-American blog. The Hill is RS for some of what it publishes, but it also runs a lot of right to far-right nonsense in the mix. If these are solid accusations -- I have no opinion -- there will be numerous mainstream RS references you'll be able to cite. It's not necessary to root around for truffles in the muck. Good content is easy to source. If the material is valid, there will soon be many uncontroversial sources with the details. SPECIFICO talk 02:10, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Your opinions on The Intercept being an anti-American blog (dubious and and not relevant, to put it bluntly), are not the point. Those are two reputable sources. And much more importantly, we can and should not require "mainstream" sources, as the entire drive of that logic is to silence marginalized voices. Full stop. I'm with Petrarchan47. YouCanDoBetter (talk) 02:27, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

The Hill article is unsuitable for including such an allegation in this bio. It may suitable for including something about Time's Up refusal to provide financial support to Tara Reade in her bio. The Intercept is not a mainstream news source. - MrX 🖋 02:36, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Does not need to be. YouCanDoBetter (talk) 02:43, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

YouCanDoBetter, and the Washington Post? New York Times? You know, any reliable source? Guy (help!) 11:30, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

I have asked for admin Newslinger to give his view on these reversions *, *, *, *, *. If the complaint is that no sources meet WP:RS, is it not the responsibility of those opposing the material to prove this, for each source? If the complaint is that actually due weight has not been established, is that not simply a judgement? How is something like this determined in a timely manner? petrarchan47คุก 02:00, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

You don't go grab an admin to settle a content dispute. And no, the "complaint" was not that no sources meet WP:RS. You might want to re-read the comments in this section again. - MrX 🖋 02:25, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Why is it that the same weak sources and the same authors are showing up here as were being used for content at Media coverage of Bernie Sanders? Paste Magazine, The Intercept, Democracy Now, Ryan Grim, Katie Halper–this can't be a coincidence. If my memory serves correctly, Grim was a social media promoter of Sanders. - MrX 🖋 02:42, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

• Its a pretty severe allegation for us to add to the page of an extremely visible politician. Until the story is picked up by an outlet like the WSJ or NYTimes, it probably shouldn't be included. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 02:47, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

The issue here is not Sanders. It's about Biden, and Biden only. The question is not "why the same authors", the question is when a woman accuses a powerful politician of rape, why don't corporate-owned (mainstream) sources take notice, especially those who historically support him, and why are these mainstream sources the only valid ones when it's this situation? Because if it wasn't a powerful politician being accused, The Hill would not be being challenged, nor would "mainstream" sources be required. Everyone here knows that. This is silencing, pure and simple. YouCanDoBetter (talk) 02:51, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, Wikipedia's consensus so far regarding The Intercept has been that The Intercept is generally reliable for news. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 06:20, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Hi all, I was asked to comment here. The policy that is most applicable to this situation is WP:BLP § Public figures (WP:BLPPUBLIC), which states three main points:

1. If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it.
2. If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out.
3. If the subject has denied such allegations, their denial(s) should also be reported.

Another relevant policy is WP:V § Exceptional claims require exceptional sources (WP:REDFLAG), which says, "Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources."

This discussion appears to be going smoothly. As a general reminder, please ensure your arguments adhere to the relevant policies and guidelines. Any editor is welcome to escalate this issue to the biographies of living persons noticeboard or create a request for comment to seek input from a broader section of the community. Thanks and happy editing. ​— Newslinger talk 07:20, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Here's the summation. Is it noteworthy and relevant? Yes. A credible (it has been verified) accusation of a significant crime directed toward a politician running for the highest office in the United States of America is unquestionably relevant, especially given the past (separate) allegations, and it is noteworthy given both the nature of the allegations being different from previous.

Are there reliable third-party sources? Yes. The Hill and The Intercept. Absolutely no serious argument has been given to challenge the reliability of those sources. Thanks to Zloyvolsheb for clearing that up.

Is it an exceptional claim? No. Severe, yes, but exceptional? Absolutely not.

Has the subject denied allegations? Not yet, but of course if he does that should be added as well.

So unless there is any more discussion (reliability has been settled), it should be reinstated. I will leave that to Petrarchan47, who is a better editor than me, if that's agreeable. YouCanDoBetter (talk) 07:36, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

• Do not add. Disagree. Sources are not adequate. SPECIFICO talk 08:36, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

And now we have editors breathlessly adding this to Joe Biden 2020 presidential campaign as well. - MrX 🖋 11:26, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

• Do not add I feel very strongly that considering that since we are all anons with no credentials what so ever we must be committed to the WP guidelines that have been set up to avoid destroying reputations. A charge of rape that went unreported for years must not be added to this article until after it is reported in the major news sources including the NYT and Washpo, AND we must keep to guidelines that discourage adding WP:RECENT information that is hardly more than "breaking news"--we certainly must NOT add it so early that Biden has not yet even responded. Gandydancer (talk) 14:56, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
• Do not add Fails weight, since not covered in major news outlets. Even if they do mention it, it will depend on the degree of coverage. TFD (talk) 23:44, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

New day, more sources (and a look at Kavanaugh)

This story broke Wednesday, March 25 with the very reputable Ryan Grim. Though Reade told part of her story a year ago, her full allegation which includes sexual assault, was never public and known only to her family prior.

Today Vox is reporting on it, and IBTimes has also picked it up. (Check the RSN before claiming either of these fail WP:RS, please.) The allegation is notable enough to have evoked a response from Biden.

The story is out, and it is inexcusable not to even mention her name or any aspect of her story in this encyclopedia article. My summary of the story was removed yesterday, as was Biden's defense, with the claim that this all needed consensus. However, only the Reade allegation was new material. As you can see from the archives, Biden's defense has been in the article for at least a year, and the well documented fact that Biden has received numerous similar allegations was also mentioned then, yet it too was removed yesterday.

Ryan Grim was the same journalist who broke the Kavanaugh/Blase allegations in The Intercept, for which he received praise. The material was almost immediately * into Kavanaugh's bio using Vox and New Yorker, and there was never a complaint. By the 15th Sept it made it into the lede. Here is the first section on the talk page where it was discussed; although the situation is similar, the entire community behaved exactly opposite to what is happening here. Please drop the arguments that a journalist's presumed political leanings has an effect on the legitimacy of their reporting without also bringing evidence of falsehood. It should be known the the NYT was caught misrepresenting facts in a similar story involving Clinton, so it cannot be assumed that only 'legacy media' can be trusted. petrarchan47คุก 19:58, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Why did you say that I made an edit that your link shows was made by Volunteer Marek? I started a discussion about an unprecedented move by a U.S. Senator in the midst of a Supreme Court confirmation, and listed five national sources in addition to The Intercept. You have listed Vox and IBTimes. - MrX 🖋 20:16, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Oh, my mistake. I've removed that. I have listed Vox, IBTimes and Fox in addition to the many sources I used in the article and that are already listed in the section above. You make it sounds as though only 2 sources support the material. Please don't make comments that clearly misrepresent the facts, and I will try to do likewise. petrarchan47คุก 20:30, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

The quality of the sourcing presented thus far is very poor, with some extraordinary claims made by certain editors about how reliable they are. Moreover, it seems incredibly strange that Ms. Reade chose this particular moment to tell her "full story", rather than when Biden was seeking reelection to the Senate, or had been nominated for VP. It's also remarkable that it wouldn't come up in the strong vetting that would've taken place prior to the 2008 election. I find it interesting that this seems to be coming from predominantly pro-Bernie sources, and augmented on social media by Russian bots. One could very easily be very suspicious of the claim. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:26, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Leave any conspiracy theorizing at your own talk page, not here. If you have comments about a particular source, please identify it so we can respond. Blanket claims don't help much. Thanks, petrarchan47คุก 20:32, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

This is just grasping at straws. Ryan Grim, the Intercept, etc. only point up the fact that the best quality mainstream journalists are not touching this. They are quite aware of it and they do not consider it "fit to print". That's really all we need to know. Call back when this is presented as a credible claim by mainstream RS reporting. SPECIFICO talk 20:37, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Indeed. For something as potentially serious as this, we would expect to see coverage in a preponderance of high quality, mainstream media sources. This is a BLP, so cast-iron sourcing is expected for what is potentially defamatory. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:41, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

We can't include the Reade allegations unless there is widespread coverage in mainstream media per weight. It might be tempting to listen to Reade's interviews and read what reputable people say about them and say it should be in the article because it is significant to the topic. But editors don't get to determine what is significant but must follow what mainstream sources do. While one may debate why this policy exists, we would need to change it before adding this story. TFD (talk) 20:52, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Fox News has reported on this. Given that "mainstream" has become code for "news sources that I like", I don't know if this is going to be good enough for most people. But I think this should settle it, and maybe by a narrow vote we may have consensus. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-campaign-denies-false-allegations-of-sexual-assault

YouCanDoBetter (talk) 21:39, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

The Fox News article does not verify anything. It regurgitates The Intercept and then covers the denial by Biden staffers. It's clear the story doesn't clear the WP:WEIGHT and WP:BLP hurdles it would need to in order to be considered for inclusion. Wikipedia should not be giving credence to dubious claims of sexual assault by notable people without high quality sourcing, and so far there is none to be seen. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:33, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Hey so I'm new here and not familiar with how Wikipedia politics works or whatever but I would like to say it's ridiculous there's still no mention of this for all the reasons others have already spelled out. If the handful of corporate news sources you guys like continue to ignore what should be a massive story that's on them. Is there anything I can do to help get this included? Utility fish (talk) 23:06, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Please read Due and undue weight. Wikipedia is not an alternative encyclopedia but shows the same importance to issues as you would expect to find in corporate news sources such as ABC, CBS, FOX and NBC news. Articles will summarize the main points they find important. If you don't think the corporate media is doing a good job covering issues, complain to them. If you think that Wikipedia policy is wrong, get it changed. Alternative encyclopedias exist. Conservapedia for example has a lengthy section on this issue in its Biden article. Readers who want their particular emphasis on the Joe Biden story are welcome to read it. TFD (talk) 23:29, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

I don't see anything in Due and undue weight that pertains to this issue. If you don't think this holds due weight, could you explain your reasoning in specific terms? Whether or not you believe the allegations, a serious, credible claim of sexual assault against a frontrunner for the US presidency holds a lot of weight in my view and many others'. I am not going to complain to the corporate media because the corporate media do not answer to me or the general public. I am not going to start using Conservapedia because I am not a conservative or a fundamentalist Christian. Neither are many other people who would nonetheless be interested in this topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Utility fish (talk • contribs) 23:58, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

A serious, credible claim of sexual assault against a frontrunner for the US presidency holds a lot of weight in my view and many others'. Except it's not a serious, credible claim. -- Scjessey (talk) 00:00, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Any claim of sexual assault is serious by definition. And it's as credible as any such claim given years after the fact can reasonably be expected to be (obviously there were no witnesses but Reade's brother and others have confirmed that she told them about it at the time and she has tried multiple times now to draw attention to her story starting almost a year ago). Do you not consider any of these allegations serious or credible enough to warrant inclusion in Wikipedia, or do they suddenly become serious and credible once they've been filtered through CNN? Utility fish (talk) 00:19, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

That's absurd. Spurious claims are made against high profile individuals all the time. Given the details I have read in the sources provided above, it would not surprise me at all if this didn't turn out to be just such a claim. The timing of the claim is incredibly suspect, and the fact that sources are predominantly pro-Bernie and pro-Trump does not feel right either. While your throwaway comment about CNN is obviously intended to be sarcastic, there is a ring of truth to it. I would expect to see extensive coverage in mainstream media (CNN, MSNBC, Fox News Channel, NYT, WaPo, WSJ, etc.) before even considering adding material to the biography of a public figure. We hold the same standard with every such figure, because otherwise Wikipedia descends into a cesspit of false allegations. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:35, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

It might be appropriate to create a separate article in the vein of Bill Clinton sexual misconduct allegations and Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations. In both cases the articles reference serious claims of sexual assault, with appropriate balance. JJARichardson (talk) 23:39, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

If there was a significant body of allegations with good sourcing, then perhaps that could be considered. But right now it would basically be a WP:POVFORK. -- Scjessey (talk) 00:02, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

I don't think there are sufficient sources. There is no way for a neutral reader to determine the credibility of the accusations. There has been no independent verification for example that Reade ever worked for Biden. TFD (talk) 00:58, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

"Employment documents provided by Reade show that she worked in Biden’s office from December 1992 to August 1993." https://www.theunion.com/news/nevada-county-woman-says-joe-biden-inappropriately-touched-her-while-working-in-his-u-s-senate-office/ Utility fish (talk) 01:07, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

It also needs to be taken note of that dismissing the Fox News source because of it being taken from The Intercept is a logical fallacy. There are two separate discussions - weight in the media, which is where Fox comes in, regardless of where their sources come from, and then the issue of reliability. And The Intercept and The Hill have NOT been challenged as unreliable sources in any academic way in this entire thread. So not only are they still considered reliable, but more importantly the Fox News dismissal was an OT fallacy. YouCanDoBetter (talk) 01:14, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

I agree it doesn't matter where a story originates but the degree of coverage it receives. Fox News on its own is insufficient. in the article about Tulsi Gabbard, some editors wanted to insert false claims about her that were reported in NBC news, but no other news source had covered them. In the Donald Trump article, some editors wanted to include claims of sexual assault that the media had almost entirely ignored because they lacked credibility. Utility fish, someone providing employment documents is not independent verification. TFD (talk) 01:39, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

I agree with The Four Deuces that this is a question of due weight, not a lack of reliable sources. The Intercept and The Hill are reliable sources, as previously acknowledged. The question is what weight should currently be assigned to this given that the story has been picked up by these and now multiple other sources, but not the newspapers of record like NYT, Washington Post, or LA Times. Perhaps there's no obvious answer that would satisfy everyone. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 02:01, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

That's well put, and I understand, I don't mean to be aggressive. I am just worried that the width of coverage of a charge can be erased if it is not chosen to be covered by the big corporate news sources. Huffington Post has now reported on this, so now it's not just a major news source (Fox News) from the right, but not a fairly major one from the left. Is this, combined with an appropriate mention of Biden's denial, good enough yet? YouCanDoBetter (talk) 02:49, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

You're making a good argument, and I don't think you're being aggressive. I really don't think there's anything obviously wrong with putting Tara Reade's allegation into the article. It's notable enough to be discussed by several reliable sources, and since it can be reliably sourced the episode can be mentioned without any violation of BLP policies. On the other hand I see it's also not widely recognized as one of the most important things in Biden's life, given that the story is omitted by the leading newspapers, so in the end I'm fine with either. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 03:21, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

How else would you verify that she worked for him then? Utility fish (talk) 03:07, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Utility fish, I'm not a PI. I assume that the Capitol would have records of who worked there. Of course no one has questioned whether she worked there. If the story gets reported in major media, then I expect the Biden campaign will check that out if they have not already. At present however their best course of action is to say as little as possible since even if they were able to disprove the allegations, drawing attention to it would be damaging. TFD (talk) 19:58, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

The Tara Reade allegation is defiantly back in the article without a consensus to include it. I'm not comfortable with this material being in the article unless it gets considerably more coverage in high quality sources. - MrX 🖋 01:21, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Vox and HuffPost have both made articles on the story. Don't think or know if it's sufficient enough but just want to put it out there.Geekgecko (talk) 02:09, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Joe Biden is such a high profile person that unless some aspect of his life has extensive coverage across the media, it's not worthy of inclusion. TFD (talk) 04:15, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Joe Biden had some comments on these types of allegations a year and a half ago - from WaPo - link. Mr Ernie (talk) 13:34, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Current sources

So far we have Huffington Post, Fox News, Newsweek (in addition to the widespread coverage in smaller sources, equally valid to justify inclusion in this article but to avoid controversy we'll focus on the above three). This, alongside of the fact that the Biden campaign has responded, is justification for inclusion. Again, high-quality is subjective, arguing that dozens of corporate-owned news sources need to weigh in sets a terrifying precedents that no one wants. We've got multiple major sources, and many "minor" ones, covering both the left and right wing spectrum. There needs to be consensus that takes into account the spread of this in the mainstream (it does not have to be in the majority, that's not in any way Wikipedia due-weight policy), does not engage in rape-culture arguments about the woman's timing. At this point we're stalling. https://www.newsweek.com/biden-campaign-team-denies-past-sexual-assault-allegation-former-senate-staffer-1494794

YouCanDoBetter (talk) 04:40, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. Also I'm still not entirely convinced that the due weight thing is even a relevant argument here. The example given to demonstrate that policy is the omission of the flat earth theory from the earth article. A viewpoint like "the earth is flat" isn't at all comparable to the viewpoint we're discussing including, which can be summarized as "Tara Reade has accused Joe Biden of sexual assault." That's not even a minority viewpoint; no one is denying that she has made the accusation, only its content. Utility fish (talk) 05:43, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

I came to this article to see if there was a well sourced statement from the Biden campaign. I saw the allegations rising in prominence. The Newsweek article sources include both the Biden campaign and Reade. It seems that we should include Biden’s denial as well as Reade’s allegation at this point. In my opinion Newsweek is the most reliable of the many sources now starting to report on this. We should have some sort of at least placeholder statement. Maybe: allegations of past sexual assault were made in March 2020. These allegations were patently denied by the Biden campaign.--Davemoth (talk) 10:12, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Hi! I just want to say that if we include Tara's story, we shouldn't just let it be about her story alone, even though it's the most serious allegation, but all allegations of sexual misconduct of which there are eight so far reported in some media sources. 51.175.0.239 (talk) 14:33, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

There's now also an [opinion column] on the story on The Guardian. I know it's only an opinion post, but it's still the most prominent paper to have commented on this.Geekgecko (talk) 15:40, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, it points out the Ms. Reade changed her story. Originally, she stated "he used to put his hand on my shoulder and run his finger up my neck. I would just kind of freeze and wait for him to stop doing that." Now that Biden is a candidate for president, her new story is one of sexual assault. Meanwhile, every single source seems to point back to the interview she gave The Intercept, so there's been almost zero corroboration by other journalists. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:28, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

although they reference the Intercept it appears that both The Hill and Newsweek have independently interviewed Reade and staffers on the Biden campaign. --Davemoth (talk) 16:49, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

So what is the consensus? The previous votes do not take the new articles into account, and has been established the arguments do not hold up for keeping it off the article anyway. It seems the consensus is shifting toward inclusion, people need to speak up one way or the other. YouCanDoBetter (talk) 17:03, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to including a couple of brief sentences about this after a few major news organizations report on it. Remember, Wikipedia does not lead on publishing information. If this is important, high quality sources will pick it up. High quality sources would be the ones we predominantly use in this biography and similar biographies: The New York Times, The Washington Post, Politico, CNN, CBS News, ABC News, NBC News, NPR, Los Angeles Times, The Hill, BBC, The Wall Street Journal, and so on. Absolutely no opinion articles or bloggish sources should be used for this type of content. - MrX 🖋 17:13, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

All these references have been rejected, so there's no point repeating them. If this matter is ever reported in the sources MrX has listed, you are likely to be disappointed that the narrative is going to be calling these allegations questionable and unsubstantiated. Of course they may later be substantiated, but we have no idea about future developments. Please don't keep citing the same rejects and suggesting that editors need to reply "no" each time you repeat them. SPECIFICO talk 17:20, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Mr. X just listed The Hill.  obviously the belief here is that the mainstream corporate media are protecting Biden.  That does not change our requirement for reliable sources, but we do have reliable sources.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 18:13, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

There are now not only multiple sources reporting it that are commonly used as reliable sources, but the fact that the Biden campaign acknowledged it should make this grounds for inclusion. How do we establish that we have a consensus? entropyandvodka (talk) 18:31, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

You can propose some text and start an RfC. - MrX 🖋 19:11, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

RfC is not the next step in dispute resolution. You listed The Hill as an RS, so hasn't your standard been met? Kolya Butternut (talk) 19:14, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

No, my standard has not been met. By the way, an RfC is an appropriate step because there is still no consensus, yet people continue adding this material. - MrX 🖋 00:40, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose inclusion per WP:WEIGHT and WP:BLP, and a lack of WP:V by reliable sources. With that said, I've tightened up the existing text to at least make it look vaguely encyclopedic. It shouldn't be in there though, because it is technically a WP:BLPVIO. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:50, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

The Times has now reported "Tara Reade, an assistant to the likely Democratic presidential candidate when he was a senator in 1993, claimed that he forcibly penetrated her with his fingers. She was among a group of women last year who claimed that Mr Biden had behaved inappropriately." [5]. Kolya Butternut (talk) 18:34, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

• Mahdawi, Arwa (March 28, 2020). "Why has the media ignored sexual assault allegations against Biden?". The Guardian.
• Harsanyi, David (March 27, 2020). "Will Biden Live Up to His Own Principles?". National Review.
• North, Anna (March 27, 2020). "A sexual assault allegation against Joe Biden has ignited a firestorm of controversy - A woman says Biden assaulted her in 1993. Now #TimesUpBiden is trending". Vox Media.
• "Biden Accused of Sexual Harassment by Former Staffer". The Young Turks. March 27, 2020.

Audio interview of Tara Reade by Katie Halper

• Halper, Katie (Mar 30, 2020). "Biden accuser: "I wanted to be a senator; I didn't want to sleep with one"". Katie Halper podcast.

• I think these recent allegations are a fact, covered by multiple news sources, that need to be acknowledged (the fact that there are allegations, not whether they are factually true). I think the current coverage in the article is sufficient. I think the fact that the news broke during a national health crisis is the only reasons that they haven't received even further coverage. They are at least as credible as the accusations against Trump or other high-profile individuals. But we shouldn't provide a narrative of these experiences which seems sensationalistic. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:52, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

I think the allegations against Time's Up though are a red herring and are in dispute. Times Up said that their PR firm has nothing to do with their individual financing decisions and, really, why would they? Also, even though Times Up have provided advice and support to thousands of women who have brought allegations to them, they have only financially supported about 200 cases. I'd remove this latest edit but I have already removed content today. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:16, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Support Inclusion of a simple paragraph without salacious details. At least 7 of sources now reporting on this are generally considered WP:RS. Some are consider biased or partisan, but that does not automatically disqualify them. At least 3 of those sources apparently interviewed Reade directly and a few got direct statements from Biden staffers.

Oppose inclusion of media bias and Times Up. This is still a breaking story and many of the MSM sources might be working on reporting and fact checking. Media Bias in 2020 could probably be a whole different article. It goes across political ideologies. Many of the sources pointing out the Reade allegtions were silent (or defensive) when Kavannaugh allegations initially broke. We can wait for more of this to shake out. --Davemoth (talk) 17:09, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Support Inclusion per sufficient evidence of mainstream coverage. I see that the story is now not just covered by The Intercept, The Hill, and others like Newsweek, National Review, Fox News, and The Guardian. It made it into the World Edition of The Times. That actually happens to be one of the English-speaking world's newspapers of record. In this case WP:BLP instructs: "In the case of public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable published sources, and BLPs should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it." That said, I would prefer to keep the description short and simple, as generally reported. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 05:46, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. At least until it's included in high quality reliable sources. And we'd do the same if it was Trump. The Grauniad is the closest we have, and paints it in a different light - so we need more sources to establish a consensus view of the issue. The Intercept is not robust enough for a claim like this on a WP:BLP, and the rest of the sources mentioned are dross. Guy (help!) 11:32, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Consistency in treatment of salacious individual claims

In order to avoid being used as a platform for potential astroturfing, Wikipedia generally does not provide coverage of lone unsubstantiated allegations - for example, allegations regarding Jennifer Fitzgerald are not mentioned at all in George H. W. Bush, and those regarding Larry Sinclair are not mentioned at all in Barack Obama. Although the article on Donald Trump notes in general terms that sexual assault claims have been raised against him, it specifically does not mention the lawsuit by Katie Johnson claiming that Jeffrey Epstein arranged for Trump to rape her when she was thirteen years old, even though the lawsuit alleging this received substantially greater media coverage than the claim at issue here, and involved both an investigation and legal action. Perhaps the best solution is to develop a clearly stated rule for consistent treatment of situations like these. I can't see the case for disparate treatment of the issues. BD2412 T 19:10, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

BD2412, why is the Kavanaugh allegation by Swetnick, which is (Redacted) featured so prominently in his BLP? These standards should be universally upheld, or not at all. Mr Ernie (talk) 20:55, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Mr Ernie, please remove this BLP violation.  It is slanderous to accuse Swetnick of making a false allegation without providing evidence.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 21:20, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

No I will not. Her accusation is the BLP violation. Mr Ernie (talk) 21:23, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Ernie, get a grip. She swore an afadavit and presented it to a congressional committee, not a Wikipedia article. Anyway Chmn. Grassley referred her and Avenatti for prosecution. How did that turn out? SPECIFICO talk 21:31, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Mr Ernie I've redacted the clear BLP violation in your comment. Feel free to revert this, and I will happily take this to ANI if need be. Thanks, —MelbourneStar☆^talk 03:21, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

I think this is relevant for the article since Biden has championed the MeToo movement that a women should be believed. Larry Sinclair was an ex-con without a shred of credibility; Jennifer Fitzgerald was an alleged affair and not a sexual assault; Katie Johnson is not the accusers real name and she never came forward publicly. Reade on the other had is public and out there with her accusation (she gave a one hour interview) Patapsco913 (talk) 21:36, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

• Halper, Katie (Mar 30, 2020). "Biden accuser: "I wanted to be a senator; I didn't want to sleep with one"". Katie Halper podcast.

Biden stands against sexual assault with lady Gaga

• "Joe Biden And Lady Gaga Join Forces To Send An Important Message About Sexual Assault". A Plus. October 27, 2017.

Biden states that any woman’s public claims of assault should be presumed to be true

• Rucker, Philip (September 17, 2018). "Joe Biden: When a woman alleges sexual assault, presume she is telling the truth". Washington Post. Former vice president Joe Biden....said Monday night that any woman's public claims of assault should be presumed to be true.

• @Mr Ernie: The Kavanaugh allegation by Swetnick is prominent because it was the subject of the Senate hearing that determined the vote on Kavanaugh's confirmation to the Supreme Court. The Senate is, of course, free to call a hearing on the allegation against Biden, if they consider the claim credible enough to justify such a step. Having testimony given under oath would certainly raise the profile of this matter. BD2412 T 21:51, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

BD2412, I appreciate your suggestion, but we currently already have a policy formula for BLPs, and this talk page is not the best place to discuss changing the BLP policy. WP:BLP states "In the case of public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable published sources, and BLPs should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it." That would cover situations with one allegation, provided there is sufficient reliable sourcing. Due weight may be a separate issue for some. If some happen to disagree with the policy itself, the place to discuss changing the policy would be at that policy's talk page. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 22:23, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

It may well be that the general understanding is that allegations of this sort, as with that of Katie Johnson, are undue for inclusion. BD2412 T 00:54, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Troubling editorial behavior

Despite no consensus for inclusion and in violation of WP:BLP, some editors continue to add potentially defamatory content into the article. This is very troubling behavior that would not be tolerated at any of the other BLPs I have on my Watchlist. You simply cannot put this kind of information into the article without agreement. I suggest we remove the material per WP:BRD and WP:RECENT, let the story develop (if it does), and then have an RfC on the matter. In the meantime, the edit warring must stop. If necessary, and administrator should lock the article. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:38, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

What is in there now is ok for the time being, I think. A short paragraph is all that is currently appropriate, until move coverage develops. Mr Ernie (talk) 13:51, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

I disagree. I would at least remove the part about how much mainstream media coverage it has received. As with the bit about TimesUp, it has nothing to do with Biden and is thus not biographically relevant. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:56, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

I agree, and I've removed that part. Mr Ernie (talk) 13:59, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

I think the existing paragraph is OK - appropriate to the amount of coverage and non-sensational. But I don't think it should be a whole separate subsection. It should just be a paragraph in the the "Allegations of inappropriate physical contact" section. I was about to remove the subsection heading, but then decided I should get input here first. IMO having it as a separate subsection is making too much of it. -- MelanieN (talk) 22:43, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

The Reade stuff has been removed wholesale by user:Volunteer Marek, which seems to be against the consensus formed here. VM - can you please re-insert the short paragraph in the subsection with the other allegations? Mr Ernie (talk) 08:27, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

I see no such consensus. Better to leave it out during discussion. SPECIFICO talk 08:59, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. As with any BLP, we must leave out contentious material until a solid consensus for inclusion has been established, and even then it must be based on significant coverage in a preponderance of reliable sources. Neither condition has been satisfied. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:24, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

To me it seems that there is very rough consensus for a minimal statement and response based on this being reported in several RS perennial sources. Without that we are just going to get edit warring. Unfortunately a RfC will take too long during a rapidly changing current event. Hmmm, maybe the real solution here is we should take this out of the Biography article with a reference to a different article. Of course if this becomes a major story (related to Bio, not 2020 run) then it may be appropriate.--Davemoth (talk) 13:40, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Remember, only liberal sources are allowed. And since they are engaged in an obvious cover-up, it is not a notable allegation. Our venerable sources have authority because they have authority. They have no bias because they have no bias. Authority, bias, and credibility can never change despite how obvious they are. It's the way of Wikipedia. Even though the allegation has more evidence than the Kavanaugh stuff, Biden's friends in the mainstream media don't want to talk about it, so it never happened. Even though Biden told WaPo, one of the indisputably venerable sources, that "all women should be presumed to be telling the truth" (unless they are talking about him.). It's okay though, the complicity is part of the reason they continue to lose. Let them continue their Orwellian ways. If they had something good to offer the American people they wouldn't have to take part in the cover-up.JimmyPiersall (talk) 21:18, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Inappropriate touching

Amid the discussion of Tara Rade's assault allegations, the following sentence was removed from the end of the previously stable version of the subsection on inappropriate touching:

At a conference in April 2019, Biden apologized for not understanding how people would react to his actions, but said that his intentions were honorable; he went on to say that he was not sorry for anything he had ever done, which led critics to accuse him of sending a mixed message.

That was a good sentence discussing Biden's response and the reaction, and I propose reinstating it. Since there are allegations of inappropriate touching, it is imperative to include Biden's response. The source was an op-ed in the LA Times "Biden is sorry, not sorry", but the non-apology apology received the same reaction elsewhere: Washington Post "Biden’s new video is well done. But it’s not an apology", Bloomberg "Biden Offers No Apology for Touching But Vows to Change Style".

I propose adding this statement back in with the additional references. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 04:07, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Why would readers want to know that Biden said this at a conference in April 2019? TFD (talk) 04:18, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

It was his response to the allegations, and received broad coverage and criticism. Do you object? Zloyvolsheb (talk) 04:20, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Agreed, his handling of gender politics and harrassment charges is relevant given his position as leader. YouCanDoBetter (talk) 04:42, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

per WP:BLPPUBLIC 3rd main point: “If the subject has denied such allegations, their denial(s) should also be reported.” We should include Biden’s response. --Davemoth (talk) 08:41, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Snooganssnoogans it looks like you inadvertently removed the above line in your edits at 2013 on March 26. Can you review and put it back if you agree?--Davemoth (talk) 10:26, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

I have included the original statement and source to restore some balance --Davemoth (talk) 22:48, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

This whole section is horribly written. The first sentence says "Photographs and videos exist that show Biden in what some consider inappropriate proximity to women and children, including kissing and touching". Do the sources say "Photographs and videos exist"? No? Then that's WP:SYNTH. Just say that some have made such an allegation, and be specific because the weaselly way it's written right now seems to be full of innuendo. And the whole sentence is sources to one reliable source, plus three opinion pieces. Those are not considered reliable here unless they are notable in and of themselves. Volunteer Marek 01:34, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

The above discussion was really about restoring and improving the Biden response from April 2019. If you want to rework much of the section, have at it. I would suggest a new talk section where consensus can be gathered before we request the admins to make the change.--Davemoth (talk) 17:51, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Credit legislation

@Zloyvolsheb: I'd appreciate it if you'd explain your reinstatement of the text I copyedited and cleaned up. I don't believe I changed the meaning of anything relating to Biden. Clinton's veto can only be related to Biden by WP:SYNTH, which presumably was not your intent. The remainder of my edit was just copyedit and clearer language. I think there may be some further content to be had on this matter from other sources, but the text you restored does not add anything and is simply worse article text. Let me know your thoughts before I restore the other version. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 02:18, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

It's the Bankruptcy Bill, I inadvertently put "credit" in the edit summary. I don't see how your version was only a copyedit. It substantially changed the wording of the text to remove the mention of Clinton's veto and opposition from leading Democrats and consumer rights organizations. The criticism is in the source previously cited, The Guardian; the version I restored is actually quite restrained in briefly mentioning it. The reference to Clinton's veto is not a synthesis; Biden helped write the original bill vetoed by Clinton, then passed the 2005 version. For example, see this factcheck from a recent debate:

Biden misleadingly claimed that he “did not” help write a 2005 bankruptcy bill that made it easier for credit card companies to collect debt, but decided it was better to work with Republicans to improve the bill because a Republican president was expected to sign it.... The fact is, Biden had a long history with the legislation and his support for it predated Bush. In fact, Biden helped draft a version of the bankruptcy bill that Congress sent to President Bill Clinton in 2000, only to have the Democrat president pocket veto the bill before leaving office....

After Clinton vetoed the bill, Grassley reintroduced the Bankruptcy Reform Act in July 2001 and Biden co-sponsored it. Biden was a member of an informal conference committee to work on the bankruptcy bill, and the committee was scheduled to have its first meeting on Sept. 12, 2001 — which, as it turned out, was the day after the 9/11 terrorist attack. At the time, Congressional Quarterly described Biden as “one of the measure’s most vocal supporters.”

It wasn’t until 2005 that the bankruptcy bill became law....

And, as he did in 2000, Biden spoke in support of the bill’s provisions that made it easier for women and children to collect alimony and child support. “I am here again today to show that, contrary to a lot of the rhetoric that has been tossed around, this bill actually improves the situation of women and children who depend on child support,” Biden said.

Contrary to his claims during the debate, Biden helped write the bankruptcy law, and it wasn’t just because he knew the bill was going to become law under a Republican president and Republican Congress. He was involved over the years in many attempts to enact the legislation.

Zloyvolsheb (talk) 02:39, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

I addressed the Clinton veto above. None of the rest of your post here was kin the version I copy edited. As I said above, some of that additional content may be good for additional article text. SPECIFICO talk 03:18, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Your edit summary implied the Clinton veto was unrelated to Biden. As I have shown, the veto related to Biden's legislation. You also began this discussion by stating this was a synthesis. Per WP:SYNTH, a synthesis is a combination of two sources to state or imply an original conclusion not stated in them: "If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources." However, discussion of the Clinton veto was not an original conclusion but the background of Biden's involvement with the Bankruptcy Bill. I hope we are in agreement regarding the restored text, if not please elaborate further so I can better understand your objections. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 03:53, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

I did not say the Clinton bit was SYNTH. I said it was unrelated to Biden in your text. I cannot discuss this with you if you misrepresent what I say. SPECIFICO talk 07:39, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Why did you think it was unrelated to Biden? Actually, just above you wrote "Clinton's veto can only be related to Biden by WP:SYNTH, which presumably was not your intent." What did you mean by that? Zloyvolsheb (talk) 08:09, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Tara Reade alleged Biden "penetrated [her] with his fingers" without her consent

Liz, why did you want to remove the specific allegation in favor of the vague language "sexual assault"?[6]  Brett Kavannaugh's article, for example, includes the allegation.[7]. Kolya Butternut (talk) 15:25, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

I am not Liz, but in my opinion the details of the assault are over the top until we have much wider coverage. It would also help if the allegation was made under penalty of perjury. The Kavannaugh allegation was made under oath in the senate hearings and thus has more weight--Davemoth (talk) 16:46, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

But why is "sexual assault" preferable to the actual allegation? She was not under oath for any part of her statement. I don't understand what is "over the top" about it; it simply is the uncensored allegation. Is there a wikipolicy you can direct me to? Kolya Butternut (talk) 16:51, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, leave that out. It's sensationalistic and adds no encyclopedic value whatsoever. - MrX 🖋 16:52, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Please cite policy.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 17:37, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

WP:NPOV, WP:NOTSCANDAL, WP:BLP. Now you cite a policy that says we must use salacious detail in our articles. - MrX 🖋 20:48, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

It seems that the more appropriate Kavannaugh analog at this point is the Ramirez allegation surfaced by the New Yorker. There, rather than describing a non-descriptive "assault", we see an explicit description of Kavanaugh having "thrust his penis against [Ramirez's] face" [8]. This statement was not made was made under penalty of perjury. Seems like the consistent thing to do would be to include the actual description. Mienkoja (talk) 17:54, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Mienkoja made a good point. I think it should be included if it was included in Kavanaugh's article.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 19:00, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

My view is that we don't need the graphic details of who did what to whom where. And I feel this way no matter whose article we were talking about, it could be about Kavanaugh or Harvey Weinstein, I haven't looked at those articles. What is important is that allegations of sexual assault were made which can be supported with reliable sources and then state what the Biden's campaign's response was, the article doesn't need details about where on her body she was molested. I think providing a narrative of an assault is gratuitous and doesn't add any value. This is a large article and multiple allegations have been made about Biden in the past, we don't have to detail every one of them. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:13, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Well, I agree. I think this is unnecessary graphics. The problem is that it was also unnecessary in Kavanaugh's article but it was added anyway. Wouldn't Wikipedia be accused of biased and politicization of sexual allegations?. Especially that one is republican and the other is democrat.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 19:28, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

The level of detail will depend on the degree of coverage of the story compared to coverage of Biden in general. In the cases of Weinstein and Kavanaugh, the sexual allegations propelled their names into public discussion. Their name recognition would be far lower without them. TFD (talk) 19:26, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

[edit conflict] My view is that we need to stay consistent, otherwise it can be easily claimed that WP editors are biased. Here is the detail from Blasey Ford in the Kavanaugh article:

"According to Ford, Kavanaugh pinned her to the bed, groped her, ground against her, tried to pull off her clothes, and covered her mouth with his hand when she tried to scream. Ford said she was afraid that Kavanaugh might inadvertently kill her during the attack, and believed he was going to rape her."

It also cannot be argued that we must not go into more detail "until this receives wider coverage" while simultaneously removing the fact that the lack of coverage is actually being called out as strange, as become part of the story, and is the focus of yet another article today. I think this information is relevant given the coverage and plan to reinsert it, hopefully without needing to resort to RfC.

It is glaringly obvious that media has become partisan, and that is troubling for editors since we seek to write NPOV article using politicized sources, but it's all we have.

This isn't just another complaint of groping, this is a claim of rape. Forgive me for stating the obvious, but we must cover it exactly as we would similar claims against a Republican. petrarchan47คุก 19:34, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

The level of coverage for the Biden inclusion is there. Either we remove all graphic sexual allegations from all political articles or we include them - the former being at the risk of WP:NOTCENSORED. Perhaps a community-wide RfC is in order to address that very point. In the interim, we add what RS say and use inline attribution for anything likely to be challenged. See the list of RS below and feel free to add more. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 19:36, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes. Removing the detail is a violation of WP:NOTCENSORED. And writing that he allegedly "penetrated her with his fingers" is giving no more weight to the story than writing that he allegedly "sexually assaulted her". When information is controversial we should include direct quotes from the primary source as reported by the secondary sources. We may also report the analysis and characterization of the secondary sources. I don't think we're ready for a month-long RfC though. This story is still unfolding. Kolya Butternut (talk) 20:18, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Feel free to take that to the not censored noticeboard. Meanwhile, the WP:BLP policy is clear: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. - MrX 🖋 20:54, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Editorial decisions at the Kavanaugh article have no bearing on this article. This discussion needs to stay focused on improving Biden's bio. - MrX 🖋 20:44, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Descriptions of sexual assault are not pornographic, i.e., titillating.  Please further explain your understanding of the policy and the editorial decisions at the Kavanaugh page.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 21:10, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Leave out the graphic stuff. Our job is to soberly relate what has been widely reported, WITHOUT sensationalism. -- MelanieN (talk) 22:46, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

RE Either we remove all graphic sexual allegations from all political articles or we include them - That is completely wrong, and counter to everything we do here. Not all "graphic material" is treated equally, not all allegations are alike; as with everything else, we reflect the coverage. We include graphic details only if the story was major - reported everywhere for multiple days - including that the details themselves were very widely reported. One allegation is NOT like another. We include graphic details about Bill Clinton and Lewinski, because the allegations were described in minute detail in a special counsel investigation and discussed at length in an impeachment trial for heavens sake. We include some graphic details in the Kavanaugh case because they were a front-page story for days and were part of a Senate public hearing. In this case, the specific allegation is reported in a few sources, and the generic (non-specific) allegation in a few others. If becomes front page news we could consider it. It's not at that level now. -- MelanieN (talk) 22:59, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

MelanieN, is there a past policy discussion that would help me understand this?     I see that the definition of sensationalism is "(especially in journalism) the use of exciting or shocking stories or language at the expense of accuracy, in order to provoke public interest or excitement." The intention here is precision and accuracy. Kolya Butternut (talk) 23:56, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Relevant policy has already been quoted to you, several times. To recap, at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons (which is POLICY) we find Editors must take particular care when adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page.[a] Such material requires a high degree of sensitivity Also Biographies of living persons ("BLPs") must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. See also the examples at WP:PUBLICFIGURE. And please see my explanation directly above, about why the fact that we SOMETIMES report the graphic details does not mean that we must ALWAYS report the graphic details. At Wikipedia, how much coverage we give something is based on how big a story it is - how much and how detailed the reporting on it was. With Kavanaugh and Clinton we reported all the details because they were thoroughly hashed out in very public forums. That does not mean that every such allegation needs the same amount of detail. -- MelanieN (talk) 00:38, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I have read this; I was hoping for more of an analysis. Based on the definitions I have described I do not believe that stating the allegation precisely is sensationalist or salacious. Some may find a dispassionate description of a sex act to be titillating, but that is not the intention and removing sexual language to avoid potential titillation would be censorship. We have already agreed to include this story, so the privacy policy does not seem to apply You stated that "We include graphic details only if the story was major." What policy is this based on? Kolya Butternut (talk) 02:40, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

We have already agreed to include this story. That is not, in fact, the case. There is currently no consensus for inclusion; moreover, there is insufficient coverage in a preponderance of reliable sources to really consider it. That may change if the story gains traction beyond the anti-Biden press, but we are not there yet. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:26, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm of the mind that we simply adhere to our PAGs and write what the sources say by applying WP:INTEXT. There is also WP:NOTCENSORED to consider; therefore, arguments that align with WP:DONTLIKEIT along with concerns about quoting graphic language are not viable arguments for exclusion. We haven't yet reached any semblance of consensus about what we should or shouldn't include. Now that we have an RfC in progress below, let's see where the chips fall. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 20:55, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

This isn't a matter of WP:DONTLIKEIT, which is an essay, not policy.

• According to WP:BLP, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment.
• and Wikipedia:Offensive material, which says Material that could be considered vulgar, obscene or offensive should not be included unless it is treated in an encyclopedic manner. Offensive material should be used only if its omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternative is available. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:10, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Liz but I actually did know that DONTLIKEIT is an essay. I respect and understand the opinions you and MelanieN have expressed, and if it turns out that consensus agrees with you, I will certainly abide by it. Having said that, I will probably try to recruit you for a bit of collaboration and help in cleaning-up the vulgar, obscene and offensive material at Brett Kavanaugh sexual assault allegations and Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations. As editors we just need to know where the line is drawn in order to maintain consistency throughout our articles. There actually are multiple RS that have published Reade's allegation, including Vox, wherein it was reported that during an interview with Katie Halper, Reade said Biden sexually assaulted her, "pushing her against the wall and penetrating her with his fingers." I quoted with intext attribution in a manner that is encyclopedic. It is the unwanted act that is vulgar, not the description of it. Yahoo reported it a little differently..."pressed her up against a wall and digitally penetrated her" which may be better suited for the pedia. It isn't sensationalism to quote a victim of sexual assault. Our job is to provide our readers with the information that was published and supported by the cited RS. This particular allegation has gained traction in the media, which makes it highly relevant and notable because this particular BLP is a former VP and the Democratic front runner in the 2020 presidential election. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 04:05, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Liz, not writing the specific accusation is "less informative...or accurate", so WP:OM does not apply. As for the "sensationalist" concern, I still have questions about that for MelanieN which I have written above. Kolya Butternut (talk) 04:26, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Include The allegations may be included, per WP:PUBLICFIGURE, now that the NYT has covered it. Before then, I would have voted no. They can also be described exactly as they are in the sources. If that description is somewhat graphic, so be it. There is no WP:CENSORSHIP here, so long as the description is factual and reliably sourced. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 21:06, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you meant for this to be a formal !Vote, but there is an RfC over this matter a few sections further down the page... ping petrarchan47คุก 23:20, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

RS and Biden's inappropriate touching & sexual misconduct allegations

This issue is obviously well-sourced and should be handled the same way we have handled other highly notable politicians per WP:BLPPUBLIC, & WP:BLPRS. The removed material should be restored. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 16:32, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

• The Guardian
• Daily Dot
• The Intercept
• The Hill
• KCTV-5 News
• Newsweek
• Vox
• NPR
• Time
• WaPo
• Fox News

^Atsme _Talk 📧 16:32, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

• The Times (See quote above.)
• Current Affairs
• The Week (Opinion piece is RS for the fact that there is an allegation)
• Salon (Investigates Reade and discusses media controversy)
  • The Hill's critique of the Salon story.[9].
• Current Affairs attempts to debunk Tara's story
• Current Affairs references: "Prof. Anthony Zenkus, an expert on sexual violence at the Columbia School of Social Work, shocked by [Salon's] Marcotte’s doubting of Reade’s sexual assault claim because she 'changed' her story over time, explains in an op-ed why the apparent contradiction is no contradiction at all"[10]

Kolya Butternut (talk) 16:44, 29 March 2020 (UTC)Kolya Butternut (talk) 03:41, 31 March 2020 (UTC)Kolya Butternut (talk) 10:53, 31 March 2020 (UTC)Kolya Butternut (talk) 16:22, 31 March 2020 (UTC)Kolya Butternut (talk) 16:48, 1 April 2020 (UTC)Kolya Butternut (talk) 19:38, 12 April 2020 (UTC)Kolya Butternut (talk) 22:33, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Please consult the talk page before creating a new section with the same information already being discussed in previous sections. - MrX 🖋 16:54, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

I did review the TP, and saw no organized list of diffs like this one. Please AGF before making accusations like you did above. If there is such an organized list, then provide the diff that points to it. List form makes it much easier for editors to see there are multiple RS available to support inclusion without further concerns of DUE and BALANCE, as what some of the arguments above have alluded to as reason to exclude. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 18:14, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

All of these sources were listed above. You should have commented there rather than opening a new section. I'm all out of good faith today, but I do have some bubblegum. - MrX 🖋 20:58, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Atsme, what was removed? petrarchan47คุก 00:16, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

As of today, all of it. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 15:13, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

It looks like it was removed because the citations didn't include these reliable sources.  Maybe it can be restored.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 15:16, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

The reliability of many of the above sources is questionable in regard to the Reade allegations:

• The Guardian - n/a - piece appears to be an Opinion piece about the media coverage and little about the allegations directly.
• The Daily Dot - poor - rehashing Biden's past statements and repeating the Halper podcast info with no new reporting on the allegations.
• The Intercept - ok - first reporting by a generally RS publcation. 3/24: mostly about Times Up. 3/26: added reference to Halper interview.
• The Hill - good - RS - conducted their own brief interview reporting on allegations.
• KCTV-5 - poor - rehashing quotes from other sources
• Newsweek - good - no consensus as RS - conducted their own interview reporting on allegations.
• Vox - good - RS - conducted their own interview reporting on allegations.
• NPR - bad - from April 2019
• Time - bad - from April 2019
• WaPo - bad - from Sept 2018
• Fox - ok - direct reporting on Biden campaign denials. rehash of allegations from Reade. Troubling partisan angle on reporting.
• The Times - unknown - this is behind a pay wall and I could not determine if it was a rehash or independent reporting

I see only 2 good sources and 2 ok sources in your list. In my opinion this is enough for a simple statement. It is difficult to see if there is consensus about including it at all and there is now an RfC.--Davemoth (talk) 16:22, 30 March 2020 (UTC)--Davemoth (talk) 16:22, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

The Times piece is only partially about the allegation and it is just reporting what other sources have said.  What about Columbia Journalism Review?[11]. Kolya Butternut (talk) 21:30, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

You can check sources that have already been discussed yourself at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources. CJR does not appear at that list so there is no established consensus. In any case the article you point to only rehashes and references other articles and does no independent reportings, so I would list that as a poor source.--Davemoth (talk) 01:41, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

It's a professional media analysis magazine published by Columbia, so I wouldn't dismiss it just because it hasn't been discussed there. They're not reporting the Reade story, they're reporting on the reporting of the story. They describe it as a "notable story". Kolya Butternut (talk) 03:51, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

CJR regularly runs opinion pieces about under-reported stories (and used to do so through a regular feature, authored by Steven Brill). It's a fair question to ask, why this story has not gained the attention of mainstream, reliable media sources, although beyond directing readers to an editorial that speculates about possible reasons that's not a question that CJR attempts to answer. Arllaw (talk) 23:11, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Mainstream RS: Tara Reade

The Economist, "How to weigh an allegation of assault against Joe Biden"
Kolya Butternut (talk) 16:19, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

So here is another opinion piece in a conservative publication complaining that major news media are ignoring this story. The problem is that Wikipedia's policy means that if stories are ignored in major news media they lack weight for inclusion in articles about people who are extensively covered in the news. There are many known facts about Biden - books have been written about him. Editors of any encyclopedia, whether Wikipedia, Encyclopedia Britannica, Conservapedia or any other must determine which of these many facts must be included. That is determined by editorial policy. That policy could be that what editors consider important should be included. However, the policy we are obliged to follow until it is changed is Balancing aspects: "strive to treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject."

Can you explain why - citing policy or guidelines - this article should contain information that major news media ignore? If you think policy is wrong, then you are welcome to get it changed.

TFD (talk) 16:36, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

This is a mainstream source and you're mischaracterizing it.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 16:44, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

The "perennial sources" guide says nothing about The Economist being partisan. It has: "Most editors consider The Economist generally reliable. The Economist publishes magazine blogs and opinion pieces, which should be handled with the respective guidelines."

The story was not "ignored by major media", but it was ignored by some. Editors suggest this means the material fails WP:V, while many journalists writing for mainstream outlets say this lack of coverage says nothing about the allegation but rather, highlights questionable journalism, and probable partisanship. The Salon piece is the only one defending media silence as journalistic integrity, however that source is not RS. petrarchan47คุก 17:29, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

I can explain why using your own Balancing aspects. The balance/weight of the treatment in the body of "reliable, published material on the subject" of the allegation is heavily (100% except for Biden staff denial I think) in favor of the allegation. Other than the semi-official denial, I could find no published sources outside of social media (RS or not) that is disputing the allegation. I think the policy is correct and that it argues in favor of inclusion.

Opinion: Using single policies can be manipulated to say what any editor wants them to say. I believe that looking at the whole of all WP policies and exactly what they say and don't say that the allegation should be included.

Can you explain (citing policy or guidelines) that Fox, Vox, The Hill, and The Intercept are not "major" or "mainstream" RS? --Davemoth (talk) 16:59, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Since you asked: There’s a Medium post which argues against the allegation (that’s light red over at WP:RS/P), and, as mentioned above, that Salon article which explains why this hasn’t gotten mainstream media attention (which is yellow over at WP:RS/P). This Economist article is using the same thought process used in other conservative opinion pieces about this allegation (e.g., one at Reason.com): If we gave the Brett Kavanaugh accusations mainstream media attention, why are we ignoring this Biden accusation. Point being, everyone agrees this accusation isn’t getting mainstream media attention, and I say we should not include it in the Joe Biden article until when and if it does get mainstream attention. The mainstream media has no problem reporting on sexual abuse or sexual harassment accusations again notable people, no matter who is getting the accusation, as long as they feel the accusation is credible. Samboy (talk) 17:26, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

"Medium is a blog hosting service. As a self-published source, it is considered generally unreliable and should be avoided unless the author is a subject-matter expert or the blog is used for uncontroversial self-descriptions. Medium should never be used as a secondary source for living persons."* petrarchan47คุก 17:36, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Samboy I asked if you can cite WP policy or guidelines about the 4 sources I list. Instead you non constructively list other sources where is no consensus as a RS. I will give you the benefit of doubt and ask again in a reworded way: Is there any WikiPedia Policy or Guideline that would exclude The Hill, Fox, Vox, or Intercept as either mainstream or major Reliable Source?--Davemoth (talk) 18:07, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

I think it was very constructive to reply to your request: “I could find no published sources outside of social media (RS or not) that is disputing the allegation”. In response to a request for non-reliable sources disputing the allegation, I gave one non-RS and one questionable-RS published source disputing the allegation, and I made it clear the sources were not reliable when giving those links. To accuse me of being non-constructive for directly addressing a request for non-reliable sources stretches the assumption of good faith we need to have, and it converts a discussion which should not be personal into a personal one. To answer your question: WP:REDFLAG means that an extraordinary claim has a higher bar of evidence than an ordinary claim, which means it has to be in “multiple high-quality sources”, i.e. mainstream media. Would it be helpful for me to list reliable sources (green at WP:RS/P) which make a point that this story has not been discussed by mainstream media? Samboy (talk) 20:14, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

I apologize for the aspersion above and should not have addressed it in that manner. I was frustrated as I had only asked for discussion on WP policy and guidelines and was mainly referring to the lack of an answer to what I asked. I had found your counterpoints to my arguments to be thoughtful.

As for the content: I find that Medium piece to be a hit piece talking many of Reade's tweets out of context. I could take most of those tweets with a sarcastic angle and see that Reade could have been condemning Biden and not praising him. Even the conclusion weasels out of an accusation and they say they want to "ensure that the public has as much information as possible to make an informed decision." I should have left out that "RS or not" phrase. As for the Salon piece, I agree with it: Media bias and Times up have no place in the Biden article (points 1 and 2) and the crazy conspiracy stuff about Reade is unlikely (points 3 and 4). The conclusion (point 5) is all really opinion, but is calling out that politicizing things like this have made the problem worse and the story should have been vetted better while acknowledging that Reade allegation is credible while Reade herself has troubling background. As for your final question, we already have that list at WP:RS/P and I have reviewed it many times.

This brings me back to my original question and your answer regarding WP:REDFLAG, regarding “multiple high-quality sources” - we have multiple (at least 4) such sources (The Hill, Vox, Fox, and the Intercept.) I don't want to put words into your mouth, but I assume either these aren't good enough or there aren't enough of them. Can you list a WP policy or guideline that those 4 are not good enough? Can you list the same for what "multiple" means in this context?--Davemoth (talk) 21:52, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Kolya Butternut Starting additional sections on a topic that is undergoing an RfC AND covered in discussion if multiple sections already is probably not the best way to handle this. I would have suggested a new subsection under the oldest section.--Davemoth (talk) 17:05, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. In fact, I think starting yet another top level section is highly disruptive. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:24, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Highest profile mainstream RS

• New York Times: "Examining Tara Reade’s Sexual Assault Allegation Against Joe Biden"
• NBC News: "Woman broadens claims against Biden to include sexual assault"
• Washington Post: "Sexual assault allegation by former Biden Senate aide emerges in campaign, draws denial"
• Chicago Tribune via NYTs: "Examining Tara Reade’s Sexual Assault Allegation Against Joe Biden"
• Associated Press: "Former Senate staffer accuses Joe Biden of sexual assault"
• ABC News via AP: "Former Senate staffer accuses Joe Biden of sexual assault"
• MSNBC, Kasie DC via NBC News: "New reporting about a sexual assault claim against former Vice President Joe Biden when he served in the U.S. Senate in the 90's"
• San Francisco Chronicle via AP: "Former Senate staffer accuses Joe Biden of sexual assault"
• Boston Globe via AP "Former Senate staffer accuses Joe Biden of sexual assault"
• Die Welt: "Belästigungsvorwurf gegen Joe Biden sorgt für Streit in Me-Too-Bewegung" ("Allegation of harassment against Joe Biden causes dispute in me-too movement")
• Le Parisien: "Présidentielle américaine : le démocrate Joe Biden accusé d’agression sexuelle" ("US Presidential: Democrat Joe Biden Charged With Sexual Assault"
• The USA Today via AP: "Former Senate staffer accuses Joe Biden of sexual assault"
• Los Angeles Times: "Former senate staffer accuses Joe Biden of sexual assault. His campaign says 'it did not happen'"

Kolya Butternut (talk) 10:30, 12 April 2020 (UTC)Kolya Butternut (talk) 02:40, 13 April 2020 (UTC)Kolya Butternut (talk) 16:05, 13 April 2020 (UTC)Kolya Butternut (talk) 16:23, 13 April 2020 (UTC)Kolya Butternut (talk) 20:25, 13 April 2020 (UTC)Kolya Butternut (talk) 21:01, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

This is not helpful for article improvement. "High profile source" is not found in our policies. SPECIFICO talk 16:32, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

And yet that is the standard that has been set in the RfC. Kolya Butternut (talk) 16:35, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

That's not correct, and at any rate it's a complaint, not an argument. SPECIFICO talk 16:38, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

I have changed it again, now to "Highest profile mainstream RS", per WP:REDFLAG: "Red flags that should prompt extra caution include: Surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources" (Personally I think "mainstream" here refers to scientific opinion, not mere news reporting.) Kolya Butternut (talk) 17:37, 13 April 2020 (UTC)Kolya Butternut (talk) 17:39, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Lack of coverage by mainstream media

The surprising paucity of coverage by mainstream sources of this allegation is being called out as notable. This fact was removed today as "irrelevant". We rely on media, not editors, to determine what is relevant. I plan to reinsert this statement:

The alleged assault received little coverage from mainstream media, according to Vox Senior Correspondent Zack Beauchamp, among others.

Sources:

https://www.vox.com/2020/3/27/21195935/joe-biden-sexual-assault-allegation (added in later edit)

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/joe-biden-faces-sexual-assault-181441242.html

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/28/joe-biden-sexual-assault-allegations-why-has-media-ignored-claims

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-in-another-televised-appearance-isnt-asked-about-sexual-assault-allegation

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/does-the-media-still-believe-women/

https://www.wgbh.org/news/national-news/2020/04/03/has-media-coverage-of-coronavirus-eclipsed-a-new-allegation-of-sexual-assault-against-joe-biden (added 4/04)

https://www.economist.com/united-states/2020/04/04/how-to-weigh-an-allegation-of-assault-against-joe-biden (added 4/04)

petrarchan47คุก 19:43, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Petrarchan47, don't. Coverage about how the media covers the allegation is a WP:COATRACK. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:08, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

No I don't think so. There is a connection to the Biden campaign: "The public relations firm that works on behalf of the Time’s Up Legal Defense Fund is SKDKnickerbocker, whose managing director, Anita Dunn, is the top adviser to Biden’s presidential campaign". Kolya Butternut (talk) 20:21, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Kolya Butternut, is Anita Dunn even mentioned on this page? If this does demonstrate WP:LASTING, it could deserve a mention at Joe Biden 2020 presidential campaign. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:37, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

"Anita Dunn" was present in this version.  So, this is not a question of relevance, but it is a question of weight.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 21:02, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

The Anita Dunn and Time's Up aspect of the story, along with Grim's piece, should never have been removed. It was done in this edit. It is an integral part of the story, closely related to Biden in several ways, and the subject of the Intercept article, which should obviously be covered here. It is credited with bringing the allegation to the public. petrarchan47คุก 00:09, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

And a fifth source to support adding a line about media coverage, from the Vox piece (which should never have been removed):

"Reade’s allegation initially received little coverage outside of left-wing media (and some media outlets on the right). But the hashtags #IBelieveTara and #TimesUpBiden started to pick up steam on Twitter earlier this week, as many wondered why it was not getting more attention ."

"Coatrack" invoked regarding a three sentence long paragraph, to justify excluding one more sentence with ample refs to show prominence? I don't see it. petrarchan47คุก 00:09, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

I see no good reason for yet another meta-comment about the old "lack of media coverage", just to go along with chatter like Media coverage of Bernie Sanders. Drmies (talk) 01:44, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Drmies. There's no rule that says how long something has to be to be a coatrack, Petrarchan47. Any discussion of the mainstream media and how it covers stories in this article is a coatrack. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:51, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Well, coatrack is only an essay and clearly doesn't apply here. The lack of coverage by legacy media is notable according to RS. petrarchan47คุก 06:46, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

It is premature to include this in the Biden article. It hasn’t even been a week since the story broke. The Vox article was only 2 days after the initial story and they are questioning why no one is covering it when they only just covered it themselves - that is dishonest coverage imho. Responsible journalism by other MSM sources can reasonably take longer than that on a story about a prominent politician. In any case, the link to Biden is tenuous at this point as no one is alleging he is responsible for the media coverage. Consensus is at best split on including this, and in my opinion is actually against including this at this time. They are already several RS sources reporting on this. How many are needed to refute this idea anyway? I personally would need at least another week before I would consider supporting it.--Davemoth (talk) 02:07, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

To be fair, Vox' senior correspondent said "I don't understand why the extremely serious sexual assault allegations against Joe Biden are not getting significant attention outside of left media".

Columbia Journalism Review has, "Media outlets on both the left and the right have covered Reade’s claim, yet mainstream news organizations have mostly avoided it."

And now Wikipedia editors are fighting tooth and nail to follow suit. petrarchan47คุก 05:37, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

petrarchan47 "And now Wikipedia editors are fighting tooth and nail to follow suit" - what a positively awful thing to say. Right, put yourself and those that agree with you as the shinning beacons of truth against injustice and brave leaders of those that defend women's long struggle, etc., etc., and us others as fighting tooth and nail against all that. Some of us believe that this story needs more time to develop but that does not mean that we don't support the movement that encourages women to speak out about sexual abuse. Often times the slow and steady approach is more productive than a burst of protest followed by inaction till the next exciting chance to protest comes along. Gandydancer (talk) 20:34, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Gandy, by "follow suit" I was referring only to the idea that "mainstream media" was noticably not reporting on irrefutable and well documented facts: an allegation was made; Biden responded. RS are commenting on this very fact, that CNN, MSNBC and NYT specifically, are ignoring this. How is it not surprising that only Fox reported on Biden's response? This has been called out quite a bit, and keeping any mention of these two simple facts out of WP when we do have RS might be considered equally disconcerting. When we worked on the BP issue, I learned from Slim Virgin that our NPOV policy at pages like BLP's and BP's is so important because many times when a page is obviously slanted, glaringly so, the issue ends up in media and paints both the subject of the page, and WP in general, in a very bad light. She gave examples of the consequences she's seen and they aren't pretty. If my wording sounds like a personal attack, I am sorry. I am clumsy with words sometimes, but know that my intentions are to relect only on PAG's in all of my comments. petrarchan47คุก 21:36, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Petra, you say:"mainstream media" was noticably not reporting on irrefutable and well documented facts: an allegation was made; Biden responded". Yes, it's a fact she said he assaulted her but we have no way of knowing if he actually did it, and that's a fact as well. You believe that the NYT and WashPo are biased and protecting Biden. I assume that they are still processing her claims, perhaps are doing some investigation, or perhaps have already decided that a claim from almost 30 years ago against an elderly man who has apparently never otherwise engaged in sexually aggressive behavior is not, at least for now, something they are willing to publish, or, last choice, they may actually be protecting him. But it matters not anyway because we are bound to base our coverage when it comes to such a serious claim on the top sources and not take the lead and correct their what you or someone else may see as bias. Gandydancer (talk) 04:22, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

We aren't broaching the subject of whether the accusation is true or false, only that it was made, and received an official response. RS has sufficiently covered these two facts, and legacy media orgs who have stayed completely silent are doing so for reasons we can only surmise, but we do have RS commenting on this fact, and none of the RS have suggested this silence is justified. These sources suggest or outright claim the motivation behind the blackout is suspicious, rather than honorable. It is not me saying this. WP:V has been satisfied, and if in fact the NYT and WaPo come out with articles that debunk the claim, that should be added too, obviously. Waiting to cover a well-documented claim/response until certain media has weighed in, is simply not in the PAGs. It cannot be ignored that their silence is the topic of a growing body or work, in fact a Google search the other day showed that roughly half of the articles written in RS on this matter focused on the alarming lack of response from legacy media. petrarchan47คุก 17:51, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Well, I will try to follow up on what you suggest because, as you know, I highly respect your investigative abilities and I just added my vote of "No" per lack of NYT and WashPo responses. You did not include any sites I might look at...any suggestions? Gandydancer (talk) 18:49, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

That position is not supported by policy, and I am glad. Lack of NYT or WaPo response has no inherant or agreed-upon meaning. From experience, we do have to question everything, and all media included. I can disprove the gold standard theory for NYT in one easy diff: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jeffrey_Epstein/Archive_5#The_New_York_Times's_claim_regarding_Giuffre

The New York Times claimed that Epstein's most prominent accuser, Virginia Giuffre, admitted to lying in past testimony about having seen Bill Clinton on Epstein's island. This both painted Giuffre as less than credible (a claim made nowhere else), and cleared Clinton of the accusation (which directly countered other reporting, like from CNN, "...she did not refute other details of the Daily Mail story, including that Epstein hosted a dinner on his Caribbean island for President Bill Clinton"). The NYTs version of events was re-added to the Epstein article after each of my attempts to remove it, on the basis that "It's the New York Times!!!!!". Finally, admin Newslinger was willing to actually look at the source material, and verified that the NYT statement was counterfactual. Most importantly, NYT was informed of the error and since August 2019, they have not responded to Newslinger nor have they corrected the article. Oh, and then there's the fake news to end all fake news: New York Times: we were wrong on Iraq.

Here, Forbes lays out how the WaPo engaged in fake news, saying it was a "top tier [newspaper] that fail[ed] to properly verify their facts". Here is a piece looking at bias in WaPo and other "corporate controlled press". WaPo has a COI regarding CIA reporting, and has been criticized for failing to disclose this in their reporting. Here is a Hill article accusing WaPo of printing highly partisan and opinionated "news". The CJR notes that WaPo doesn't always disclose COI with regard to their reporting on Amazon. Here Fox covers Bernie's allegation of bias by the Post.

Please tell me what you are asking for re: "sites I might look at"? petrarchan47คุก 20:33, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

If we've reached the point of the discussion where we have started trashing long-respected reliable sources, in the manner of Donald Trump, then I think we're done here. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:30, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Could they be silent for the same reason that they compared Biden's opponent Bernie Sanders to the coronavirus earlier? Or tried to connect him to mass executions in Central Park? The NY Times recently published a column acknowledging their own bias. Don't see why the silence of some obviously politicized "legacy media" sources should erase what is reported in multiple other respected and reliable sources. (The Times, The Hill, The Intercept, Vox, and Fox website, to list five "green" WP:RSPSOURCES yet another time). Zloyvolsheb (talk) 18:20, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

The present discussion, I think, highlights how the changes in the media that have occurred over the past couple of decades make it more difficult to figure out when an accusation should be included in a BLP, given that the most relevant guidance seems to have been written for the prior era. From WP:PUBLICFIGURE:

Example: A politician is alleged to have had an affair. It is denied, but multiple major newspapers publish the allegations, and there is a public scandal. The allegation belongs in the biography, citing those sources. However, it should state only that the politician was alleged to have had the affair, not that the affair actually occurred.

In the present era, it is possible for an allegation to be made within the sphere of social media and to rise to the level at which a public figure may feel compelled to deny the allegation, even if the story has not been covered by "major newspapers" (or reliable third-party media sources). Can social media attention render something a "public controvery" even if it's not public in the traditional sense of being covered by major media outlets? If so, what is the threshold for assessing when social media attention rises to that level?

In the present era, also, the fact that a story is getting attention can cause media coverage (from minor to major) of the controversy, but with little to no investigation of the story itself. "An accusation was made; the accusation was denied". Is that the sort of media coverage that would justify the inclusion in Wikipedia of an accusation against a public figure if there is no associated public scandal (or none outside of social media)? If so, at what point can we be said to have reached a point of coverage equivalent to "multiple major newspapers", assuming that the language is not intended to constrain inclusion to situations in which the remaining traditional major print media outlets cover the story? Arllaw (talk) 17:42, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

This is a discussion for the policy talk page of WP:PUBLICFIGURE.  This story has been reported widely beyond social media.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 17:51, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Both of these ideas may be a better suited as discussion as a Proposal for a policy change.--Davemoth (talk) 18:06, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

In the sense that if the official guidance were improved we might have an easier time reaching consensus as to this type of issue? Sure, but this discussion is happening now, and within the context of the discussion it becomes necessary to try to parse the relevant policies. Arllaw (talk) 22:57, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Ok, but the discussion specifically about social media isn't relevant here. Yes, folks keep emphasizing that we need top notch reliable sources. But...we're not talking about science here, the woman is on film making an allegation. Every source is reliable. Unless we're saying we need a very reliable source to determine whether the accusation is reliable enough to make notable? I'm confused. There must be many other scandals we can look to for guidance. Kolya Butternut (talk) 02:31, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

It is not the case that "every source is reliable", nor is it the case that we can dismiss concerns about reliability as expressed in the limited official guidance we have on this question by declaring that the language used in the example is irrelevant, and that any amount of controversy or coverage of a controversy (as opposed to the allegation itself) is sufficient even when the mainstream media has produced no investigative journalism on the subject and is being exceedingly cautious about presenting the allegations beyond, at a modest level, noting that they were made and denied. Are there other scandals we could look to for guidance in relation to the application of Wikipedia's policies? Perhaps, but I'm not aware of any. Arllaw (talk) 21:03, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Aziz Ansari comes to mind, not because of the lack of mainstream coverage, but because he did receive mainstream coverage. That doesn't address policy, but it could influence our editorial decision.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 21:32, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Non-compliant Lede

WP:LEDE states that the intro should "summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies". This is policy, yet Biden's intro doesn't include one mention of the eight women who have come forward with complaints. We have an entire section dedicated to this, so it should have been included in the Lede long ago. petrarchan47คุก 19:56, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Petrarchan47, It's not one of the "most important points." – Muboshgu (talk) 20:07, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) These are not prominent controversies nor are they the most important points for a Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient who served 36 years as a U.S. Senator and 8 years as VPOTUS. - MrX 🖋 20:11, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

I see it is your opinion that an accusation of a criminal act, covered by credible media sources, is not prominent. But that is only an opinion. Many would likely view the nature of the allegation to raise the 'controversy' automatically to the level of "prominent". The fact that you already have a well-formed, long-standing section on this subject in general, means it should be included in the Lede without question. The fact that you have multiple women making these claims makes this addition unavoidable. The fact that it isn't mentioned, that indeed no controversy is mentioned in the intro, means this article is in violation of WP:NPOV. petrarchan47คุก 00:00, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Nah. - MrX 🖋 00:50, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

There have been accusations against against the most recent U.S. presidents and several VPs and cabinet officials of war crimes, which are far more serious, yet we don't put them in their leads. That's because criminal acts do not in themselves have weight. When news media start referring to these people as accused mass murderer rather than former president or whatever we should change the leads. Incidentally a recent president and VP had DUI convictions, but it is in not in the lead of their articles. TFD (talk) 01:22, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Petrarchan47, you seem to "already have a well-formed, long-standing section on this subject in general" yourself. Don't cast aspersions. To make a direct comparison, the WP:WEIGHT between the allegations made against Joe Biden and the allegations made against Donald Trump are not in the same stratosphere. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:54, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

You misread me, I wasn't casting aspersions. I meant that the article has a good sized section already. petrarchan47คุก 06:06, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

I meant that the article has a good sized section already. The article has 35 or 40 substantial sections. We don't summarize all of them in the lead. Take a look at the article Donald Trump: he has been accused by so many women that there is not just a section in his biography but a whole separate article, Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations; and yet we don't mention that subject in the Donald Trump lead. The lead is to summarize the "most important points"; apparently that subject didn't make the cut. And it shouldn't here either. -- MelanieN (talk) 19:21, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

I have to admit, I assumed Trump's lede would include a mention of the many allegations. Considering there exists an entire article dedicated to them, it seems very strange to omit any mention. To be very straightforward: I do hope Biden is the nominee, and none of my opinions here are politically motivated. As I said before, consistency is my goal, so I am satisfied by this comparison, thank you. petrarchan47คุก 18:08, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

It strikes me that comparing Biden to Kavanaugh is to some extend more fitting, since he is running for, not holding, a high public office. This was added to Kavanaugh's Lede soon after the allegations went public:

During the confirmation process, Professor Christine Blasey Ford came forward and alleged that Kavanaugh had sexually assaulted her by pinning her to a bed and forcibly attempting to remove her clothes. Kavanaugh has "categorically and unequivocally" denied that the event occurred.

This addition received no push back, and none of the arguments seen on this page are present at the Kavanaugh TP from the time. The article presently has in the Lede:

before his nomination...Blasey Ford contacted a Washington Post tip line with accusations that Kavanaugh had sexually assaulted her in the early 1980s while the two were in high school. Two other women also accused Kavanaugh of sexual misconduct. Kavanaugh denied all three accusations.

It doesn't appear to be equal treatment. petrarchan47คุก 23:47, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Petrarchan47, well, Kavanaugh and Biden's situations aren't equal, so they shouldn't be treated in the same exact manner. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:03, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

You mischaracterize my words: the comparison is "to some extend more fitting". I doubt we could find perfectly equal comparisons (and I never said they were) unless the subjects held identical positions. For this reason, I didn't suggest they be treated "in the exact same manner". However, in my view we aren't being anywhere near consistent in the application of arguments and PAGs between these two very comparable matters. petrarchan47คุก 00:15, 3 April 2020 (UTC) (Oh, I guess I did use the phrase "equal treatment" - struck.) petrarchan47คุก 00:21, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Indeed, the evidence accusing Kavanaugh was far flimsier, but we still included it. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 00:16, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

That would be difficult as we have no evidence at all in this allegation (and won't unless something is put forward or there is testimonial evidence). At least in the Kavanaugh case there was a sworn affidavit so we had at least that much evidence. Or is there something published that I am not aware of here with Reade?--Davemoth (talk) 00:25, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Sir Joseph, what you think of the "evidence" is your opinion and not relevant. The media coverage of Christine Blasey Ford vs. Tara Reade is not at all the same (so far). – Muboshgu (talk) 00:31, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

"Grim has contacted Reade’s friend and brother, both of whom say she told them about the alleged sexual assault by Biden in 1993." Vox. We know for certain Biden and Reade worked together, whereas there is no hard evidence Ford and Kavanaugh ever met. petrarchan47คุก 00:52, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Additionally everyone named by Blasey Ford as a witness has denied it occurred. Mr Ernie (talk) 08:21, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

RfC: Should Tara Reade's sexual assault allegation against Biden be included in the article?

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this request for comment is yes, Tara Reade's sexual assault allegation against Biden should be included in the article. There was initial opposition the proposal on the basis that a number of mainstream U.S. reliable sources had not reported on the allegations, which would have therefore created undue weight on the topic. However, since this RfC began, and especially within the past few days, the circumstances have changed as multiple mainstream sources have reported on the allegations, including The New York Times [12], The Washington Post [13], Associated Press [14], and other sources. Rather than focusing on whether the allegations should be discussed in the article, the discussion should now shift towards how the allegations should be discussed in the article. Relevant policies include the biographies of living persons policy, especially the subsection on public figures. In my view, there is no consensus yet within this discussion over any specific wording to be included in the article. Respectfully, Mz7 (talk) 01:04, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

---

Should Tara Reade's sexual assault allegation against Biden be included in the article? - MrX 🖋 13:36, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

In March 2019, Tara Reade, a former Senate staffer to Biden, said he had inappropriately touched her multiple times during her nine months in his employ, tweeting in March 2019, "Part of my story, the rest is silenced, ask me". On March 25, 2020, Reade alleged that Biden had sexually assaulted her in 1993. Biden's campaign released a statement denying the allegations.

Sources

---

Discussion

• Yes I support including a simple paragraph with the general allegation and rebuttal by the Biden staffers. There are several Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources reporting on this with independent interviews. We should beware of bias in sources, but bias is not an automatic rejection of that source. The Intercept is also a RS, although as the source that broke the story I would not accept on its own without independent backup. The Hill reference is the one that pushes it over the top for me -- as The Hill's news reporting is generally seen as a RS. FOX is a generally reliable source although obviously partisan (and troubling as they jumped on this story while ignoring stories about conservatives), but still also seems to be valid independently sourced material. Some of the other reliable sources behind paywalls (The Times and others) may also further tip the balance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Davemoth (talk • contribs) 14:47, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
  • That's "The Hill Rising", a webshow on the Hill website, which is hosted by two cranks. It's akin to citing Sean Hannity's show and saying "Fox News is a RS, therefore this Sean Hannity video is a reliable source". Votes by editors who cannot tell what a RS is or who choose to intentionally mislead others about the contents of the sources they are citing should be dismissed by the closer of this RfC. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:08, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

    Snooganssnoogans Do you have a source for The Hill Rising not being considered as a RS? WP:RS/P Makes no mention about Rising or its two hosts. It only discusses Opinion and Contributor pieces, which this does not appear to be as there are no disclaimers or bylines as I've seen other pieces. Fox has a separate entry for Talk shows that labels them as Opinion.

    You do not seem to take direct issue with the other 2 sources I have listed. There is also Vox and other generally reliable sources as well as several other sources where there is no consensus. Do you question these sources as well? Your later !vote explanation is similar to what I state of a simple allegation and denial, but you do not define "high-quality" sources.

    Your last sentence can be easily seen as a personal attack if I was thinner skinned. The way you have posted this same content several times also seems a bit like a WP:BLUDGEON. You may want to review the tone of your 5 very similar updates and consider removing some and softening others. We should avoid making this personal or heated and stick with policy discussion.--Davemoth (talk) 17:40, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

    The Hill Rising is a web series on Hill TV and is not the same as The Hill which is a newspaper. There does not appear to be any consensus in WP:RSN whether The Hill Rising or Hill TV are reliable or not. WP:RSP is a simple guideline for general reliability of a publication or media outlet. That alone is not enough for a source to be reliable. Our policies require that for a source to be reliable the journalist, the publication and the content must be reliable. Content must be fact checked (vetted) and "The Hill Rising". clearly states that it has not been "independently verified". Unfortunately, quite a few of the sources listed in this discussion fail the verifiable policy for a reliable source. CBS527^Talk 21:07, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

    Numerous editors have made the argument here that as long as their preferred media companies have someone in their employ who clicked "submit" on an article that discusses Tara Reade, then we can include it in this page and then create the broader Joe Biden sexual assault allegations primary article. I haven't seen anything in Wikipedia policy that states "content must be fact checked." In fact, I would be shocked if this is a policy, given that the tales of Christine Ford, Deborah Ramirez, and Julie Swetnick have been vetted, and remain unverified, yet the claims enjoy their own bolded sections in Justice Kavanaugh's biography. There is no evidence or corroboration for these claims, therefore it is impossible to fact check them - very tough to prove a negative. All that matters is that an employee of a reliable source e.g. Fox News, The Economist, Newsweek, or the Huffington Post wrote an article about Reade's story. Which they have. 2600:1700:D281:27D0:A418:E4FA:4CB7:83A (talk) 23:15, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

    The last 3 discussions on WP:RSN about The Hill have been after Rising (news show) existed as part of the website. It is billed as a News Show and is Produced/Published (and presumably under editorial oversight) by The Hill news department. There are 56 articles referencing "thehill.com/hilltv/rising" and 10 more for hilltv that support others have used Rising for a source (many for BLP). Per WP:CONTEXTMATTERS (video interview) the article itself seemed a reliable independent source with a solid RS publisher for the fact Reade made an allegation. The argument about "independently verified" is misleading as the larger quote shows that it is in regard to "Reade's allegations" -- which would need further evidence that could not easily be obtained (and which is verified by some of the other independent sources via her brother and another Senate staff person.) I followed my normal process of checking RS and there was no reason I would suspect that Rising was not part of The Hill and considered RS.

    Snooganssnoogans and cbs527 Is there some WP policy, guideline, or precedent that I should be aware of that could help me next time I am reviewing a source? Perhaps one of you could start a RfC at WP:RS/N to remove the implied consensus for Rising.

    BTW, I am in the process of some analysis of sources, policy, and the RfC. As such I am planning to remove my dependence on The Hill rising piece as there are other better sources (such as Vox with newsweek as a supporting (no consensus) source.) If some of my policy questions are ever answered I might even switch my vote to No. Regards --Davemoth (talk) 04:43, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

    The reason why I watch Rising — that the hosts have a lot of freedom — is also the reason why I don't think it's reliable for negative claims in a BLP. There is also an op-ed in The Hill which came out yesterday so maybe that could help establish due weight. Connor Behan (talk) 17:27, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

• No The most prominent U.S. media can be relied on to cover so significant a story about the presumptive Democratic presidential candidate -- if and when they determine that it is credible. There is no rush at Wikipedia and our readers need to know that our content will be stable and not keep changing with developing coverage in remote corners of the media. While some of the proposed sources are credible and reliable for certain kinds of content, none of them has reporting resources and standards remotely comparable to the major U.S. mainstream news organizations that have declined to cover these allegations. The fog of partisan arguments on this talk page does not change that fact. SPECIFICO talk 15:21, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

  Why do you only want to include this if it is covered by U.S. media?  Kolya Butternut (talk) 15:46, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

  Gee willakers. Didn't I just say why? They are aware of it. They are investigating it. It would be big news if credible. We go with their judgment. That's the core of what WP editors do. If you are relying on a media suppression conspiracy theory to justify ignoring Wikipedia policies and guidelines, please take it to NPOVN or RSN or reddit. SPECIFICO talk 16:07, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

  I'm not sure if you heard me.  I'm asking why sources outside of the U.S. would not meet your criteria.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 16:13, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

  Time for a chill pill. I did hear you, at least the part that wasn't invisible ink. You did not ask that. Now let others have their say. SPECIFICO talk 16:30, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

  I won't speak for SPECIFICO, but imho the Guardian does no direct reporting on the allegations. I can't tell for The Times because of their paywall. The real point in that there should be consensus on if they are a RS. Only The Hill, The Intercept, and Fox have consensus as RS, some of those are seen as biased on partisan, so that needs to be considered in the attribution --Davemoth (talk) 16:37, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

  Vox and Newsweek have also covered the allegations, extensively. We've also got The Times UK, and Law and Crime has done two pieces. It's true the Guardian piece focuses more on the strange silence from US establishment media (and it should be noted that the Fox piece only covers Biden's official response to the allegations). petrarchan47คุก 08:33, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Whether or not the establishment media decides to mention this story should not influence whether we write about it on Wikipedia or not. We already have quality sources reporting on the event. BeŻet (talk) 11:32, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

• "The most prominent U.S. media can be relied on to cover so significant a story about the presumptive Democratic presidential candidate -- if and when they determine that it is credible." What's the evidence that this statement is really true and not a kind of warm feeling in our hearts? 'Of course they would cover it if it was real! They didn't cover it, so it's not real!' That is a dangerous level of faith in organizations which could EASILY have a political bias. Geographyinitiative (talk) 02:41, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

  What do you think the media is, some kind of corporate machine that can play politics? No, it's an unbiased judge of all that's newsworthy. Biden did not kick off his campaign at the home of a Comcast (NBC) executive [15]. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 03:14, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

• Yes absolutely per policy, and it warrants more information for our readers, not just the one case. Multiple 3rd party sources have published articles about Biden's alleged inappropriate touching and sexual misconduct, some of which Biden addressed publicly so that also needs to be included. WaPo published the following statement by Biden: When a woman alleges sexual assault, presume she is telling the truth. I included multiple RS in an easy-to-find list above under the section RS and Biden's inappropriate touching & sexual misconduct allegations (but only included 11 RS - there are many more). Also noting that the entire section that was removed today by Volunteer Marek in this edit despite it being cited to multiple reliable 3rd party sources that documented the allegations and/or incidents, including The Union (newspaper), Newsweek, Vox (website), Heavy.com and Fox News. WP:V, WP:DUE and the requirement set forth by WP:PUBLICFIGURE have all been satisfied. For whatever reason, VM's edit summary states no substantial coverage in mainstream sources ("heavy" ain't)). Policy does not specify "mainstream sources", only that they should be reliable 3rd party sources. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 16:20, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

  This is not just a question about "mainstream" sources (as some argue). 3 of the 5 sources you reference that were in the info removed by VM are not generally considered reliable (per Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources and the 5th is generally seen as partisan. In my opinion this made that section "poorly sourced". As such Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Reliable sources states that "contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced should be removed immediately and without discussion". The RfC is the way to handle this now, but you might want to consider the consensus on what is a RS in your future arguments.--Davemoth (talk) 16:54, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

  To clarify, Davemoth, I listed the sources that were cited in the aggregate, not that they were each RS as a standalone. Together they corroborate each other, in context, re: the material that was added. The Union, Newsweek, Vox, and Fox = 4 RS. Verifiability is important, and that requirement was met. Also, we can use biased sources - bias doesn't make them unreliable. See WP:BIASED. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 02:04, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

  FYI. Newsweek is listed as No Consensus as a RS. As far as I know, The Union has not been evaluated. So Vox and Fox. If this is added again later RS would be better served to have The Hill and the Intercept as out secondary sources and The Union and Newsweek supporting sources. --Davemoth (talk) 12:59, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

  There is no Wikipedia policy requiring that we cover allegations of sexual assault in a BLP. In fact, WP:PUBLICFIGURE says to include it if is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented. The scant reporting suggests that it is not noteworthy and it is certainly not well documented. I would also point out that "When a woman alleges sexual assault, presume she is telling the truth" is not a Wikipedia policy. If our standards for inclusion were that minimal, Wikipedia would have a big credibility problem. - MrX 🖋 18:42, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

  You are correct but there is also no policy that says we should not cover it as evidenced by Kavanaugh, Trump, Lauer, etc. What needs to be considered above all is the quote by Biden himself wherein he said, "presume she is telling the truth". Biden is a former VP and current presidential candidate which gives the things he says publicly far more weight/credibility, regardless of the low numbers of left-leaning mainstream news sources that reported it. A substantial number of RS have met the requirements per our PAGs, and the attempts to convince editors that those sources do not meet certain qualifications is not gaining much traction, and is beginning to look more like bludgeoning. At the very least, based on the evidence brought forth in this RfC, it appears we may well have a case for WP:IAR at the very least, and the direction this RfC is headed supports it. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 23:30, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

• No - This is simply not ready for primetime. The accuser waited years before changing her story once Biden had become a major candidate for the presidency. The very limited sourcing available is largely a collection of opinion pieces from authors with either a pro-Bernie lean or a pro-Trump lean. The few examples of serious sources mostly regurgitate existing material, with very little new stuff added. Mainstream media in the US, where the claims were made, have been more or less silent on the issue. The Biden campaign has issued denials, but the lack of comment from Biden himself is an indication the allegation isn't regarded with any seriousness. Consequently, inclusion would fall foul of several policies and guidelines, including WP:BLPVIO, WP:WEIGHT and WP:RECENT. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:19, 30 March 2020 (UTC) Qualified Yes - Changing my vote to a qualified yes because of new coverage. I do not support the proposed language, but I do support some sort of inclusion now. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:53, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

  If the accused ignores it, that is a sign the claim should not be taken seriously? Some corrections: the accuser did not wait years, nor did she change her story. She immediately went to her immediate supervisor, which was protocol.* This evidence is sealed in Biden's records until after the election.07/11/7d0dd222-a347-11e9-bd56-eac6bb02d01d_story.html * She told a local paper part of her story last April*, after hearing Lucy Flores' complaints. She was smeared, received threats, and was doxxed.*, *, * She feared coming out with the more serious allegation, and went to Time's Up in January 2020. The organization helps women who want to come out with their "me too story" to deal with the challenges of holding powerful men accountable. In February she was told the org could not hep her, and finally in late March, she went ahead without support and told her entire story on a Rolling Stone podcast.* She never changed her story; she tweeted last year that there was more to the story.* Contemporaneous evidence exists: she told others at the time what had happened, and they have confirmed this with several media outlets, including in the seminal piece from The Intercept, and in Newsweek. The claim that mainly opinion pieces and heavily biased media have covered it is also false. petrarchan47คุก 07:31, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

  @Petrarchan47: I'm sorry, but pretty much everything in your response is irrelevant to this article. This article is about Joe Biden. It is not about Tara Reade. It is not about who Tara Reade spoke to and when. It is not about Time's Up and Ms. Reade's interactions with that organization. ALL that matters to this article is whether or not a preponderance of reliable mainstream media sources give significant, independent coverage at a level that passes WP:WEIGHT. It indisputably does not cross that bar. In fact, we can even infer from the lack of such coverage that mainstream media organizations aren't comfortable with the claims, at least not yet. There's no hurry. Let the media report the facts as they come out, and if it crosses the WP:WEIGHT bar we will absolutely give it the coverage it deserves. But not before. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:16, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

  Are you citing WP:WEIGHT?  If so that's a misrepresentation.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 15:43, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

  @Kolya Butternut: No, it really isn't. I've been a regular editor of Wikipedia for over 15 years and I've become intimately familiar with its policies and guidelines, including WP:WEIGHT. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:50, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

  But the actual policy doesn't matter, Scjessey. The joke's on you. Because now you've been the target of an unsubstantiated allegation, just like Biden. Just as on Twitter and the Intercept, this allegation may now take on a life of its own over the next days and weeks. Duck and cover. SPECIFICO talk 19:04, 31 March 2020 (UTC)  

  Scjessey, if that is so can you help me understand your interpretation of the policy?  I don't see anything close to your quote; maybe I would find it in a guideline? Kolya Butternut (talk) 19:55, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

  My comment is entirely relevant to this RfC; it points out that your !Vote contains numerous inacuracies. This entire line is untrue: The accuser waited years before changing her story once Biden had become a major candidate for the presidency. The very limited sourcing available is largely a collection of opinion pieces from authors with either a pro-Bernie lean or a pro-Trump lean and it makes clear that you have not done little to no research into the topic and the sources available. Further, the ratio of op-eds to serious coverage doesn't nessesarily mean what you think it does. A high number of op-eds could indicate nothing more than the fact that the topic is a heated one.  petrarchan47คุก 19:18, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

• No It fails Due and undue weight. For a very high profile person like Biden, only substantial coverage of a story justifies inclusion. The argument that the allegations are serious and credible are arguments that the media should consider when deciding whether or not to cover the story. It could be that they have found the accusations lack credibility or perhaps they are so partisan they chose to ignore them. It really doesn't matter because they establish what is important. I note that a similar discussion came up with many times with Donald Trump, about allegations made by Jane Doe that were not covered in the media. (See for example  Talk:Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations/Archive 4#The lawsuit didn't receive much coverage / Remove Jane Doe?) It was agreed that due to lack of media coverage it should not be mentioned. TFD (talk) 17:33, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
• Yes per Atsme and Davemoth Quidster4040 (talk) 17:43, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
  • This vote cites Davemoth's argument for inclusion. Davemoth's vote gave primary importance to the fact that a purported RS, "The Hill", had reported the allegations. But that's not the case. It was "The Hill Rising", a webshow on the Hill website, which is hosted by two cranks, that covered the allegations. It's akin to citing Sean Hannity's show and saying "Fox News is a RS, therefore this Sean Hannity video is a reliable source". Votes by editors who cannot tell what a RS is or who choose to intentionally mislead others about the contents of the sources they are citing should be dismissed by the closer of this RfC. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:10, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
• No - No to the suggested text. Needs to be clearer in regard to the denials. Open to including based on most recent high-quality sources. - As Newslinger correctly pointed out above, the predominate policies that apply to this area are WP:BLPPUBLIC and WP:EXTRAORDINARY. We need multiple reliable, high quality, third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident. Most of these sources discussed do not meet these requirements.

  * Although "The Hill" is normally a reliable source, the "The Hill". cited isn't a third party source and even states that Reade's allegations have not been vetted.

  * "Democracy Now!", "Huffington Post" and Heavy.com are primarily news aggregators and are questionable sources with no consensus on their reliability

  * Almost all the sources mentioned are relying on the "The Intercept" article with no additional reporting and fail the multiple source criteria per "Notability#cite_note-3"..

  A few of source that come close meeting the requirements (although they primarily reference "The Intercept" article they also  have additional reporting) are ""Newsweek""., "FoxNews". and to a lesser extent "Vox".. These sources also bring up some discrepancies in her story.

  Mainstream sources present the prevailing view within the journalism community. If the large majority of mainstream sources are not mentioning this allegation then that presents a wp:weight issue as well. If/until there are higher quality, better vetted sources then what has been mention here, we should not include Tara Reade's allegations. CBS527^Talk 19:31, 30 March 2020 (UTC)modified !vote CBS527^Talk 20:27, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

• Yes per Davemoth. The Fox News article with the Biden campaign denial formulates ground for inclusion. The allegation does not presume the truth of the allegation, only that the allegation was made. The Biden campaign denial must be included to presume innocence. yunquekabal 21:10, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
  • This vote cites Davemoth's argument for inclusion. Davemoth's vote gave primary importance to the fact that a purported RS, "The Hill", had reported the allegations. But that's not the case. It was "The Hill Rising", a webshow on the Hill website, which is hosted by two cranks, that covered the allegations. It's akin to citing Sean Hannity's show and saying "Fox News is a RS, therefore this Sean Hannity video is a reliable source". Votes by editors who cannot tell what a RS is or who choose to intentionally mislead others about the contents of the sources they are citing should be dismissed by the closer of this RfC. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:11, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
• Yes while this wouldn't have been appropriate enough to include back when most reports were just citing the original Intercept article, the recent Vox and Newsweek articles have added more to the story as they managed to field info from Tara & her friends/family, Time's Up, and the Biden campaign. The reports should be objectively explained followed by the campaign's word on the matter. Geekgecko (talk) 21:34, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

  FYI - Newsweek is not a high quality source. - MrX 🖋 22:02, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

• Yes. The sourcing has moved beyond The Intercept and mainstream media is now covering it, including the Huff Post, The Guardian, and other sources mentioned above (Vox, Fox, etc). The Biden campaign has also addressed the allegations and responded to them, which RS have included as well. WP should cover major updates that are covered by RS, which this situation applies to. --Kbabej (talk) 21:55, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
• Yes. We have sufficient sources -- an entire list of sources, including major newspapers like The Times and The Guardian in the UK. We have The Intercept and The Hill in the U.S., which all meet the standards of Wikipedia's list of perennial reliable sources. It's OK to describe an allegation as an allegation provided that multiple WP:RS exist; that is the policy stated in WP:BLP. There is no requirement that a fact or allegation about Biden be covered by every news organization for Wikipedia to describe it. The Biden campaign has also responded. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 23:39, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Zloyvolsheb, The Guardian source is actually a column hence fails reliable sources, per WP:NEWSORG. But suppose it was reliable. How does an article titled "Why has the media ignored sexual assault and misbehaviour allegations against Biden?" show that this story has been well covered in the media? TFD (talk) 00:42, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
    • The Four Deuces, you can read the Guardian article as an opinion column, but it was actually published in the News section under U.S. politics and seemingly as part of women's interest, not in the separate Opinion section of the newspaper. I also initially assumed it was just an opinion column, and it resembles one. But regardless of the classification of this particular article, the very fact of its publication serves as an example of international discussion of the allegation, which addresses the arguments of those saying "undue." Zloyvolsheb (talk) 01:18, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
      • The test for inclusion is not that someone somewhere in the media has mentioned something but in proportion to its prominence in reliable sources, which does not include opinion pieces. Generally, if there is next to no coverage, it should be omitted. (See Balancing aspects.) Arwa Mahdawi is billed as a Guardian columnist and brand strategist, not a reporter.[16] And note it has been relegated to the feminism section, rather than politics. That's probably because she is writing about how the media ignore sex allegations against politicians they like. But that's an opinion, not an established fact. As I pointed out above, the media also ignored an accusation against a woman who made claims against Trump. TFD (talk) 02:21, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
        • OK, as I have before stated, for me the remaining question was the due weight of including this, given that the community has already recognized the first sources to have picked up Reade's allegation, The Intercept and The Hill, as WP:RS. We don't need every WP:RS, or twenty or a dozen WP:RS, if we already have multiple WP:RS. A set of reliable sources can pick up a fact or report an allegation that other reliable sources do not mention. Unless there is a contradiction in how something is actually described in different reliable sources, reliable source a omitting something you found in reliable source b does not detract from the argument for including the information according to source b. If that's settled, the remaining element is notability. We know there are dozens of popular, mainstream sources like Newsweek, HuffPo, etc. Among them Mahdawi in The Guardian, a major British newspaper, which proves that the allegation was not just reported reliably in the first place, but is also a subject of sufficient prominence. That addresses due weight. I separate this from reliability, but the reliability criterion was already met with WP:RS like The Times, The Intercept, and The Hill. So your argument looks like "it needs to be in one of or several American newspapers like The NY Times, LA Times, etc. to be worth mentioning." I think that is extremely restrictive, particularly when it comes to merely reporting the existence of an allegation that was reliably reported elsewhere. How many other facts are not reported in The NY Times? Zloyvolsheb (talk) 03:44, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
          • Why have the policy of weight at all if we can add anything that meets rs? TFD (talk) 04:01, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
            • Because it is applied to separate fringe and minority views from mainstream and majority views when describing things like science vs pseudoscience, or other controversies where we describe opposing views. WP:WEIGHT actually gives the example of Flat Earth, but there are less obvious examples that we come across regularly. Or how about this: suppose we had 3 sources alleging Biden was actually guilty of committing assault and 7 reliable sources telling us he was innocent. Weight again. But we are not presenting that kind of narrative, we are presenting the mere fact of the existence of an allegation, and including Biden's denial. There are no WP:RS denying its existence. In this case the appropriate interpretation for "weight" is notability. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 04:15, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
        • Actually The Guardian lists this "article". as an "Opinion". piece. Per WP:EXCEPTIONAL Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources. Newsweek and Huff Post are hardly "high-quality sources". There is no consensus that they are reliable. The Hill source is a video clip with no editorial oversight and should be treated as equivalent to primary source. CBS527^Talk 05:24, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
          • OK, The Guardian source is an opinion column and The Hill is WP:RS but a primary source. We take the reliability of many other sources as open to question. That leaves us with at least The Times, The Intercept, and the Fox website from Wikipedia's good sources list as secondary WP:RS. So, again, multiple sources to use for what Reade alleged. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 06:54, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
            • Opinion pieces can be used as RS to report facts.  Here the fact is that Reade accused Biden of assault.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 07:22, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
              • Kolya Butternut, see News organizations: "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." TFD (talk) 21:21, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
                • I interpret that to mean that the opinion itself cannot be used as a statement of fact, but facts reported within the editorial can (at least I thought I read that within some PAGs...). Kolya Butternut (talk) 21:28, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
• No - there's a reason why reliable and credible sources have ignored this story. Someone like Biden, who has been a Senator as well as a VP for 8 years, has been vetted up, down and sideways. And the initial allegation was made years ago. The fact that mainstream reliable source are not touching this is a pretty clear WP:REDFLAG. At this point this is nothing but a WP:FRINGE story which does not belong in a BLP. (The guardian and the Huff Po pieces are just opinion columns, which is not enough for a BLP). Volunteer Marek 01:29, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Do you consider The Times, The Intercept, The Hill and Fox News fringe sources? Zloyvolsheb (talk) 01:32, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
• Yes per Atsme. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 01:42, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
• Yes, Wikipedia should report the allegations, that is newsworthy and the Biden campaign has responded to them. But No, according to WP:BLP and Wikipedia:Offensive material, we don't need to provide a detailed narrative of an alleged sexual assault. And just because these policies and guidelines have been violated on other articles is not a good reason to allow for that on this one. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:14, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
• Include if-and-only-if it rises to the level of having electoral consequences. As an allegation standing alone it has insufficient significance in the scope of the subject's life. However, if the subject were to lose either the primary or general election, and if that loss reliable sources attributed that loss to some degree to the allegation, then it would definitely merit inclusion. BD2412 T 02:28, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
• Yes – There is more than enough secondary sources with detail to show due weight. This is verifiable and relevant. There is no reason why we should not include. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 03:41, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
• Yes per Atsme. Columbia Journalism Review has characterized this as a "notable story".[17] Current Affairs has now vetted the story.[18] Kolya Butternut (talk) 04:16, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
• Yes with caveat, and Snow Close Per everything Zloyvolsheb has said. There are no grounds on which to deny adding this to the article, and the idea that specific U.S. media orgs must report on this before it can be included is misguided. This is nowhere mentioned in the PAGs, and reeks of U.S.-centrism. The threshold for sources has already been met. It is being brushed aside, but multiple articles have focused on the shocking fact that these specific media orgs have refused to acknowledge the story, and that is crucial here. CNN, NYT and MSNBC have been called out in these pieces, but these same outlets are being elevated here on WP to a position they haven't earned. 'It must be reported by the CNN's of the world or it didn't happen' is not a policy or guideline, and arguments suggesting otherwise are without merit until a proper RfC at the RS/N to establish this has been completed.

New York Mag What We Know About the Joe Biden Sexual Assault Allegation

The Intercept Time’s Up Said It Could Not Fund a #MeToo Allegation Against Joe Biden

Vox A sexual assault allegation against Joe Biden has ignited a firestorm of controversy

WaPo Sexual assault allegation by former Biden Senate aide emerges in campaign, draws denial

NBC Woman broadens claims against Biden to include sexual assault

Nathan J. Robinson * Evaluating Tara Reade’s Allegation Against Joe Biden

The Economist How to weigh an allegation of assault against Joe Biden

WGBH News Has Media Coverage Of Coronavirus Eclipsed A New Allegation Of Sexual Assault Against Joe Biden?

Fox cable news segment

MSNBC cable news segment

Newsweek Joe Biden's Sexual Assault Accuser Wants To Be Able To Speak Out Without Fear of 'Powerful Men'

Daily Dot Biden’s past comments on sexual assault dredged up in wake of graphic allegations

Yahoo/Refinery21 Joe Biden Faces Sexual Assault Allegations From A Former Staffer

HuffPost Joe Biden Accused Of Sexually Assaulting Senate Aide In 1993

Fox Biden campaign adamantly denies allegation of sexual assault

Democracy Now Interview with Tara Reade

Katie Halper Interview with Tara Reade

The Hill TV Interview with Tara Reade

HuffPost TV Hosts Fail To Ask Joe Biden Questions About Sexual Assault Allegation

Daily Dot CNN accused of ignoring Biden’s sexual assault allegations

The Guardian Why has the media ignored sexual assault and misbehaviour allegations against Biden?

Yahoo/The Week Joe Biden has a #MeToo problem

Fox Biden sexual assault allegation goes unmentioned in another televised interview

Fox New York Times edits Biden sexual assault coverage, deletes references to past inappropriate 'hugs, kisses and touching'

• The allegation should be included in the article immediately. IMO, it should not be limited to three sentences. Language used to describe the assault seems consistent with other articles, but it is too graphic for my taste. It also ignores the rest of Reade's account: being pushed up against the wall, the finger in the face with "You're nothing to me. Nothing.", and the subsequent loss of her job and ability to find another one on the Hill. 06:11, 31 March 2020 (UTC) petrarchan47คุก 00:09, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
• Limiting an encyclopedia's coverage by predetermining the amount of space allowed makes no sense. Case in point: we already have another sentence that needs to be added. petrarchan47คุก 19:53, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Reade filed a criminal complaint with the Washington D.C. Police on April 10 over the alleged sexual assault.

References

• I disagree with the reason for hatting the NYT discussion below. !Votes that depend largely on the premise that the NYT specifically can be seen as gold standard for RS, to the point it is a requirement, has no basis in policy, and further ignores relevant, indisputable facts. petrarchan47คุก 21:39, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

• Not now Yes Update 2020-04-12, it’s in The New York Times so, as promised, I am updating my vote. These accusations are very serious accusations, and before we include them in the Wikipedia article for such a public figure, we need to wait for them to be extensively discussed across multiple top-notch sources, such as The New York Times, which covered the less serious touchy-feely accusations last year. The fact that these accusations are very popular with a small, loud spoken minority who think Sanders will become the nominee if they can get these accusations to stick means that it will be extremely difficult to maintain any neutrality with them. If they get a prominent mention in The Washington Post or The New York Times, I will change my vote (2020-04-12: Front page of New York Times, vote now “Yes”) Samboy (talk) 08:09, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Off topic discussion about a the NYT that has no place in this RfC. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:15, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Be aware that the New York Times was caught misrepresenting the facts when Bill Clinton was allegedly seen at Epstein's island, and they smeared the eyewitness as a liar. They were alerted by Newslinger, and never responded to the request for correction. petrarchan47คุก 09:00, 31 March 2020 (UTC) That sounds like a fringe theory to me. Sorry, but you’re going to need a strong source to support that particular fringe theory. Also, Factcheck says Clinton never went to that Island Samboy (talk) 09:10, 31 March 2020 (UTC) What theory did I propose? The facts that the NYT in fact misrepresented concerned the court documents of an alleged eye witness. The NYT claimed that Virginia Giuffre admitted to having lied about seeing Clinton on the island. In the court documents, that admission does not exist. Do I have this correct in your view, Newslinger? To date, the office of corrections has not responded, which gives us very good reason to question whether their position as "the paper of record" is outdated. I am not promoting conspiracies or fringe. petrarchan47คุก 09:37, 31 March 2020 (UTC) The eyewitness that supposedly saw Clinton on Epstein’s island is a known unreliable witness. She claimed to have strongly implied she had sex with Marvin Minsky when he was on Epstein’s island, something that never happened (well, for it to have happened, both Minsky’s wife and Gregory Bendford would have to be lying, and we would have to believe a man married for 50 years would cheat on his wife like that). We don’t have any reliable indications Clinton was on the island, and a possible one-sentence error which doesn’t change the underlying facts does not make The New York Times unreliable. Samboy (talk) 09:59, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

• Yes a short paragraph of 2-3 sentences is appropriate. Mr Ernie (talk) 13:48, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
• No. BLP directs us to use caution, and rely on the best sources when reporting scandalous or inflammatory content. Here, the majority of sources offered are subpar. Two are from the post-2013 Newsweek, which is a lower-quality source (see Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources#Newsweek (2013-present)). One is to an obscure, low-circulation Nevada newspaper. One is from Heavy.com, which is a clickbait source. And this last one is from Fox and focuses on the Biden campaign's denial. These are not sufficient sources to stick a serious criminal accusation in a BLP, nor do they demonstrate due weight. The large majority of mainstream sources are not mentioning this allegation, so we must follow suit. If this gets mentioned in the Associated Press, Reuters, New York Times, Washington Post, or Wall Street Journal, or similar, we can reevaluate. Most of the "include" comments here should receive no weight or low weight because they are based on the incorrect assumption that the existence of some sources repeating an allegation "guarantees inclusion," when our policy is the opposite: that a source exists does not guarantee inclusion. Neutrality^talk 15:54, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
• Not now Neutrality's arguments are persuasive. This specific allegation has been given some (not much) coverage in some (not many, and not mainstream) sources. The coverage at this point does not rise to the level that WP:BLP calls for. -- MelanieN (talk) 16:17, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

A few days ago, you said "I think the existing paragraph is OK - appropriate to the amount of coverage and non-sensational". Neutrality's argument uses false assertions. The low-circulation paper from Nevada is used to support the fact that Reade came out with her story last year, to the only paper that would air her story, her local paper. The source isn't being used to show weight, and it's low-circulation status is irrelevant here. That Heavy.com is a "clickbait source" is also irrelevant when it is only being used to support the fact that she tweeted something last year, nothing more. It's fine to question sources, but they must be viewed in context. N's argument does not look at context and therefore misinterprets the sources s/he doesn't like, whilst avoiding any mention of sources like Vox and The Intercept. Interestingly, those two sources specifically were the two used to initially add Blasey Ford's claim to Kavanaugh's bio. petrarchan47คุก 19:20, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Your views will be better received if you don't couch them in terms of disparagement or aspersions against another editor. SPECIFICO talk 19:31, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

I don't see any aspersions here, SPECIFICO. Yes, petrarchan, I did say that a few days ago. The fact that the story has not expanded since then into the mainstream - that it is still a small amount of reporting in a few, mostly not mainstream outlets - is what has pushed me into "Not for now". Apparently the vast majority of high-quality journalistic outlets have decided that this is not worth reporting. If this later gets more prominent coverage from more significant sources, to the point where the weight of coverage is sufficient for inclusion, then I will change my vote. Wikipedia is all about coverage. It is not about what we personally think of the material, or of the person. It's not about us. We reflect what is published in Reliable Sources, but not everything that is published; we publish according to weight, namely the amount and duration of coverage and quality of sources. -- MelanieN (talk) 19:49, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

MelanieN, I meant this kind of stuff: Neutrality's argument uses false assertions..Not helpful. Discussion on this matter is (with a few exceptions) policy-free arguments against experienced editors who are trying patiently to explain the issue to less experienced editors who could easily read the policies and guidelines so as to engage on a more substantive and detailed level that might actually improve the article. SPECIFICO talk 20:23, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Are you accusing people of sealioning? I feel that good faith less experienced editors are raising good questions while the experienced editors are not explaining policy nuance. Kolya Butternut (talk) 21:15, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

It appears there may be a bit of confusion over WP:RS and what qualifies as a 3rd party RS for citing a WP:PUBLICFIGURE. Petrarchan47 did an excellent job of clarifying it. I, too, encountered a similar bit of confusion at RS/N regarding "in context" and what exactly constitutes a reliable 3rd party source. For one thing, to be reliable, the source doesn't necessarily have to agree with us. We also have to consider WP:V and the fact that Biden is subject to a slightly different set of rules in our policy as a public figure; therefore, some of the more stringent aspects of BLP do not apply here. It also appears that consensus is moving in the direction to include the well-sourced material and the arguments are strong ones suupported by multiple RS. Biden's behavior is not new or recent - it has been written about in the media for over a year. Arguing back and forth about the reliability of sources that consensus has long determined to be reliable is a weak position in this RfC. The unfriendly banter and unfounded allegations back and forth also need to stop, as does the badgering of editors over their iVotes. Let the process continue unhindered, and take the discussion below to a separate section. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 22:05, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Biden's behavior is not new or recent - it has been written about in the media for over a year. Wrong. What has been written about is that he has been touchy-feely in a way that made women feel uncomfortable. Hugs, pats, standing close. He admits that has been a lifelong pattern of his, and including it is not controversial. But nobody, up to now, has accused him of actual sexual assault; this is a whole new type of allegation. That would be a crime, a whole different kettle of fish from kissing someone on the back of the head. Biden is subject to a slightly different set of rules in our policy as a public figure; therefore, some of the more stringent aspects of BLP do not apply here The BLP policy is very explicit: if you are accusing a public figure of a crime, you need excellent sourcing - multiple reliable sources. We do not have anything approaching excellent sourcing at this point. -- MelanieN (talk) 22:24, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

The issue I have with this line of argument is the black-and-white nature of arguing being done here. There is not some invisible line with some sources being automatically being “unreliable” on one side of the line, and sources automatically being “reliable” on the other side. There are shades of gray. The Intercept is generally a reliable, if opinionated, source, but in the case of an extraordinary claim, they are not sufficient. For a claim this extraordinary: That Biden raped someone 27 years ago (even though his sexual conduct was extensively discussed last year, with no rape accusations coming up) we need multiple sources of the highest quality: Sources like The BBC, Reuters, Assosciated Press, The New York Times, Washington Post, and The Wall Street Journal. And, yes, MelanieN is right: This rape accusation is a very different kettle of fish than the improper touching accusations. Samboy (talk) 22:54, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

The mentioned sources have already been through screenings at RS/N, and they meet the qualifications as RS that can be cited per PUBLICFIGURE. There is nothing I've seen in our PAGs that specify "mainstream media"; rather it states that multiple 3rd party RS must have reported it, and the latter has been satisfied. MelanieN, it appears you misunderstood me because I am not wrong. The allegations about his sexual misconduct are not new. You appear to be focused on the one victim who recently came forward with the courage to describe the behavior she was subjected to using stronger language but his overall misbehavior is not new. There are multiple 3rd party RS available online - 3rd party does not equate only to "mainstream", it equates to "independent"; i.e., An independent source is a source that has no vested interest in a given Wikipedia topic and therefore is commonly expected to cover the topic from a disinterested perspective. Independent sources have editorial independence (advertisers do not dictate content) and no conflicts of interest (there is no potential for personal, financial, or political gain to be made from the existence of the publication). There is probably some level of bias in all online media sources because of the paradigm shift to clickbait. Regardless, there are several sources that verify the long standing sexual misbehavior allegations against Biden such as: USA Today, April 5, 2019; NPR, April 2, 2019; and WaPo that calls into question the position Biden took in the Anita Hill case; The Independent April 2019, etc. Biden denied Lucy Flores's sexual misconduct allegations, not unlike all the others who were accused of it, except maybe for Lauer who made a public apology, but still denied the descriptions. As editors, we now have a precedent on which to gage the allegations, including what happened to Kavanaugh, Weinstein, Trump, Lauer, Cosby and so many others. Our job is simply to evaluate what the sources say and include all significant views, not censor them. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 23:56, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

These "comparisons" make no sense. Cosby and Weinstein were convicted of multiple felony crimes. Lauer was fired from his job. Kavanaugh's accuser gave sworn testimony before Congress. Trump was accused by 23 women over a period of years. All five had far more extensive coverage than is the case here. You are also wrong to suggest that there is "nothing" in policies and guidelines that "specifies 'mainstream media.'" Wikipedia:Verifiability says that "Other reliable sources include: ... Mainstream newspapers." At various points, Wikipedia:Reliable sources refers to "material from high-quality mainstream publications" and "well-established news outlets." In any case, this is not a question of what sources exists; it's a question of WP:WEIGHT and WP:BLP. Neutrality^talk 00:32, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

The question is not whether the accusations from last year of improper touching should be included here (and, again, those allegations are not rape allegations, and just like there are shades of gray with the reliability of sources, there are also shades of gray with physical misconduct). The question for this section is very specific: Should Reade’s rape accusation be included here (no, touching someone on the neck is not "rape"). The very specific claim that Reade was allegedly raped by Biden (again, touching a woman’s genitalia is very different than touching her arm or neck) does not have the support from multiple top-level reliable sources required to merit its inclusion in a high profile Wikipedia article. Samboy (talk) 00:39, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Neutrality, of course they make no sense if you compare them using hind sight, and no I am not wrong. To begin, we are still only at the allegation stage for Biden whose position as a presidential candidate warrants the scrutiny, not censorship. "Other reliable sources include:..." does not say they "must be" mainstream newspapers. Besides, we are dealing with digital publications on the internet and as such, you should be looking at WP:NEWSORG. You can make it into whatever you want but facts are facts and the allegations are real, verifiable and published in multiple 3rd party RS per the guidelines for inclusion. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 00:45, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

I should be able to point out flaws in an argument without being accused of casting aspersions, which is a very serious claim with serious consequences.

The story of this allegation broke last Tuesday in an article from Ryan Grim for The Intercept. There are certain media outlets that haven't covered the allegation or Biden's official response to it. This has been viewed by many journalists as notably strange. That fact is ignored by arguments claiming certain outlets must report on this for inclusion here.

It is being asserted that The Intercept cannot be used for this type of allegation, however:

• "Intercept reporter Ryan Grim... broke the news of the letter detailing allegations against Brett Kavanaugh"*
• "Her story leaked anyway. On Wednesday, the Intercept reported that Feinstein had a letter describing an incident involving Kavanaugh and a woman while they were in high school and that Feinstein was refusing to share it with her Democratic colleagues."*

This WaPo article citing the Intercept shows that it considered highly reliable for such claims, and indeed it was the piece that all media used as the basis for their coverage. Ryan Grim received praise for his work (you can see that here, and the newer version that popped up after he reported on Biden). In this early version of the Kavanaugh allegation, you can also see that Heavy.com was used, showing that we appear to be applying double standards as the same source is being rejected on its face now. Articles like Why has the media ignored sexual assault and misbehaviour allegations against Biden? show that the media we love to trust might have a bias that is showing up now, and that it is time to rethink the notion that we can completely trust any media without double checking their motives and facts. Media has been accused of being partisan; we can't ignore that it is a possibility, and that it could easily effects our attempt at NPOV. Maybe the noted silence from establishment media is indicative of partisanship rather than irrelevance. petrarchan47คุก 00:55, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

The fact that this rape allegation has not made the pages of The New York Times, The Washington Post, or The Wall Street Journal is a big red flag indicating that the claim may be suspect. As per official Wikipedia policy “Surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources” are suspect and should not be included in Wikipedia articles. Samboy (talk) 01:15, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Well, that leaves out the fact that reliable mainstream sources have covered it, and no one has come out debunking it, and that Biden himself took it seriously enough to respond. Those media outlets that failed to report on his reponse at the very least should be considered suspect in this case. That is why so much has been written questioning their silence on this particular matter. petrarchan47คุก 01:21, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

That's just not accurate. Of the few reliable sources weighing in (and they very definitely FEW), they are mostly just regurgitating what was said in The Intercept and mostly doing it in opinion pieces. As for Biden's response, of COURSE he denied it. Any man falsely accused of sexual assault would deny it. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:42, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Sources are covering Grim's piece because he broke the story, just as they did when news about Kavanaugh's accuser broke. The fact that Biden's response isn't surprising has no relation to whether it is encyclopedic fodder. It is, and was covered by MSM. I disagree that "mostly" op-eds covered the Intercept piece. Can you provide evidence for that claim? petrarchan47คุก 01:54, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

"Surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources are suspect and should not be included in Wikipedia articles". That's not what the policy says. What it says is that they should "prompt extra caution". Caution taken. Aziz Ansari was all over cable news after Babe.net, who no one's ever heard of, broke the story. I think what we should be questioning is the reliability of mainstream sources rather than the reliability of the sources which actually do cover the allegation they don't want to believe. Kolya Butternut (talk) 03:01, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

No, what the policy says is “Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources”, and we should be cautious with “Surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources”. The claim that Biden raped someone 27 years ago is surprising, it’s important, but it’s not being covered by The New York Times, it’s not being covered by The Washington Post, it’s not being covered by the Wall Street Journal. If this claim was reliable, it should be “all over cable news”, but it’s not. It directly contradicts Wikipedia policy to be “questioning is the reliability of mainstream sources”. It’s not about whether an editor believes the claim since “Editors' personal experiences, interpretations, or opinions do not belong on Wikipedia”. Samboy (talk) 06:33, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Reade's claim that Biden violated her 27 years ago is surprising and exceptional. However, the claim that Reade alleged he did is also surprising, but clearly not in the same universe of exceptional claims as that. Obviously, the first claim has not been verified as true, but the second has been, by multiple sources, and also covered in dozens of other mass media articles, opinion columns, etc. It's not astounding that sources closest to Biden in political orientation might opt to not publish an alleged claim about something from 27 years ago, a claim that is essentially impossible to verify at this point. It's still relevant to Biden that it was made, and it is covered by multiple reliable sources, as repeatedly pointed out. It warrants a brief mention, accordingly. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 07:11, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Samboy while quoting WP said: "It directly contradicts Wikipedia policy to be questioning is the reliability of mainstream sources. It’s not about whether an editor believes the claim since Editors' personal experiences, interpretations, or opinions do not belong on Wikipedia".

This is exactly my point and makes me question why are you (and other editors) questioning the reliability of The Intercept, The Hill, Vox, and Fox? Each did independent reporting (interviews) and Per Wikipedia:Verifiability each of those is a mainstream RS. We therefore have multiple (4) mainstream third party reliable sources and many other sources which can be used supporting this. We should beware of Bias and Partisan sources, but they are not excluded (Fox is arguably the most partisan in the sources and they were the first to publish Biden's staffer's denial).--Davemoth (talk) 12:59, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

The issue I have with this line of argument is the black-and-white nature of arguing being done here. There is not some invisible line with some sources being automatically being “unreliable” on one side of the line, and sources automatically being “reliable” on the other side. There are shades of gray. The Intercept is generally a reliable, if opinionated, source, but in the case of an extraordinary claim, they are not sufficient. If this was an deletion discussion, I would be singing a very different tune. But, for this accusation, the bar for reliability is far higher. Samboy (talk) 15:04, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

• yes the story has been covered in multiple mainstream sources. We have a specific policy that covers this exact situation. Accusation made. Accusation denied. Story covered in multiple reliable sources. ResultingConstant (talk) 18:56, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

  "Multiple mainstream sources" is factually inaccurate. Lots of editors have been making this false claim. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:42, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

  Fox News. Salon. The Hill. Newsweek. Vox. The Intercept. Democracy Now! Washington Times. Washington Examiner. The Week. RealClearPolitics. Biden camp has issued a statement. What's your minimum of sources before it becomes "multiple"? 2600:1700:D281:27D0:E8D5:F7CE:5E45:8F0F

  I think you need read the language carefully. Wikipedia:Verifiability specifically does not define “mainstream”. As such it is logically implied that any RS source can count. Therefore “multiple mainstream sources” literally can mean “2 or more sources that consensus views as reliable.” In this case we have the Intercept for initial reporting and The Hill, Vox, and Fox that have each done some independent reporting and interviews.--Davemoth (talk) 03:44, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

  Don't forget Current Affairs. Kolya Butternut (talk) 03:56, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

  Whatever language one wants to use is fine. There are multiple mainstream sources reporting on Tara Reade's powerful story. There are multiple reliable sources reporting on Tara Reade's powerful story. Any assertion to the contrary has no basis in reality. 2600:1700:D281:27D0:E8D5:F7CE:5E45:8F0F (talk) 04:00, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

• Yes There are reliable sources covering the allegation.VoxRealClear Politics ~ HAL333 21:45, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
• No Maybe later. WP:BLP and WP:Recent apply here very well. Only if, at some point later in time, multiple reliable sources discuss the topic in depth, the content should be added to the article. Things could be easier if the issue was not so sensitive due to the coming election. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:59, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
• Obviously The problem with these "how many liberals/conservatives can I bring to this page" type polls is that it creates the illusion of objectivity and neutrality, which very few people still bother to pretend exists here. Christine Ford (can't remember a thing other than Kavanaugh "pushed her" and "laughed", best friend doesn't believe it and was pressured by the FBI to lie and say she did, no evidence or corroboration), Deborah Ramirez (someone said someone "pushed" Deborah's hand into Kavanaugh's weiner, Ramirez doesn't know if it was Kavanaugh's, no evidence or corroboration), and Julie Swetnick (said Kavanaugh ran a gang-rape trafficking ring when she was in college and attending drunken high school parties, repped by Michael Avenatti, no evidence or corroboration). They all have their own SECTIONS on Kavanaugh's page. Tara Reade is the 9th woman to bravely come forward to tell her harrowing story of her attack at the hands of Joe Biden. Yet, people are clamoring for reasons to hide it from his page. Why? Occam's razor. 2600:1700:D281:27D0:E8D5:F7CE:5E45:8F0F (talk) 03:23, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
• Maybe if it's a single sentence which doesn't name names. Something like "one of the women elaborated on her story a year later to describe a sexual assault which the Biden campaign denied". I'm surprised the Salon article has not ben discussed more since it looks like the best one we have so far. Also, please ignore the people who derail the discussion about WP:WEIGHT by claiming that the accusation itself is suspicious. Connor Behan (talk) 03:48, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

  Notably, the Salon article explains why the claim is questionable from a journalistic perspective. It’s not a question of not believing the woman; it’s a question of not making a strong negative claim against Biden without more solid evidence (as described in the Salon article). Samboy (talk) 06:45, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

  Salon is "generally unreliable". There is no consensus on the reliability of Salon. Editors consider Salon biased or opinionated, and its statements should be attributed. We need to stick to the highest quality sources for this material, as has been argued ad infinitum.  petrarchan47คุก 15:43, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

  No, Salon is not generally unreliable. There is no consensus on the reliability. Those are two different things. - MrX 🖋 18:21, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

  The Hill critiques the Salon story.[19]. Kolya Butternut (talk) 16:45, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

  • That's not "the Hill". "The Hill Rising", a webshow on the Hill website, which is hosted by two cranks, that covered the allegations. It's akin to citing Sean Hannity's show and saying "Fox News is a RS, therefore this Sean Hannity video is a reliable source". Votes by editors who cannot tell what a RS is or who choose to intentionally mislead others about the contents of the sources they are citing should be dismissed by the closer of this RfC. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:14, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

• No - If I had to guess, this is probably an Eventually, but for the reasons put forward by Neutrality, TFD, et al., it's not enough yet. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 03:55, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
• Yes but not in the form as presented. It should be shortened, given the current low prominence in reliable sources, not directly quoting her 2019 tweet, just saying she modified her story, and it should be sourced only to the more reliable sources reporting it (namely Vox, which is mislabeled currently as Newsweek), not Fox News. It's gotten enough coverage to be worthy of inclusion, and WP:BLPVIO privacy concerns have little weight for me due to Biden's extreme prominence as a public figure. Sdkb (talk) 06:48, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

  "Modifying" would be an innacurate way to describe what happened. She tweeted 'there is more to the story, ask me'. She expanded her story, she didn't change it in any way. In spring 2019, Reade considered telling her full story, says Halper, “but she was doxed and smeared as a Russian agent. There are now witnesses to the story…her brother and close friend recall her telling them about the incident at the time,” said Halper.* petrarchan47คุก 01:05, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

• YesNo - Given the seriousness of the accusation, the low-to-middling quality of the sources, and the lack of independent investigation by high quality sources, this is not appropriate per WP:NOTSCANDAL, WP:BLP, WP:RS and especially WP:DUEWEIGHT. That the nexus of this story is two Bernie fans raises a huge red flag:

Last week, podcaster Katie Halper, an avid fan of presidential candidate Sen. Bernie Sanders, released an episode of her podcast containing a shocking accusation:... At the same time, Ryan Grim of The Intercept — a publication which has been strongly supportive of Sanders and critical of Biden — published a story...
— [20]

If this is important, multiple high quality sources will pick it up. High quality sources would be the ones we predominantly use in this biography and similar biographies: The New York Times, The Washington Post, Politico, CNN, CBS News, ABC News, NBC News, NPR, Los Angeles Times, The Hill, BBC, The Wall Street Journal, and so on. Absolutely no opinion articles or bloggish sources should be used for this type of content.

I also agree with the arguments put forth by Cbs527, Neutrality, Volunteer Marek and other editors who echo similar concerns. WP:PUBLICFIGURE is not met because there is a dearth, not "a multitude of reliable published sources". It's imperative that we adhere to the policy principles that BLPs must be written conservatively; that it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; and that the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. This shocking content with its shaky sources does not pass any those tests. - MrX 🖋 12:30, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Changed to Yes. There has now been sufficient coverage in reliable sources to warrant including a brief mention of this. The wording in the RfC is poor and mostly sourced to low quality sources, so a version that adheres to the major points of the best sources is what should go into the article. - MrX 🖋 12:27, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

The Intercept endorsing Sanders is not any more relevant than The New York Times endorsing Warren / Klobuchar. By all means prioritize coverage in the latter, but do so on the basis of reliability, not aspersions. Connor Behan (talk) 13:41, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

I said nothing about The Intercept endorsing Sanders. I did however provide a source that reflects the common knowledge that The Intercept is a biased source with respect to certain subjects. It should be treated accordingly. - MrX 🖋 14:28, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Just a quick note about The Hill. Tara Reade bravely chose to give an interview to The Hill and shared the details of the attack and her ordeal[21]. We have The Hill covered. It's not Wikipedia's fault that CNN, New York Times, and other far-left sources have chosen to ignore Reade and have devoted little time to the other eight women who have come forward to discuss Biden's alleged misconduct. Readers shouldn't have to read an incomplete biography because of journalistic malfeasance. 2600:1700:D281:27D0:951A:49BB:1F4F:EECE (talk) 14:58, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

You should review This Salon Article. They lay out a case that media bias is very unlikely in regard to reporting on this allegations. As your IP address has not submitted in anything other than this article, you are by definition a single purpose account. As such you need to be careful in your phrasing and citations. In my opinion, your discussion about "far-left" sources makes this sound like a fringe argument and is more detrimental to your supporting the argument that the allegations should be included. For myself, I was the first to vote Yes but I am starting to be swayed by arguments such as yours that are ignoring the big picture and claiming malfeasance.--Davemoth (talk) 15:36, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

The Hill critiques the Salon story.[22]. Kolya Butternut (talk) 16:45, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

• Yes - the argument regarding "low quality sources" is moot as there is plenty of sources reporting on it, and there is absolutely no doubt that the accusation has happened. Whether the accusation is true is a different story, but since it is a serious allegation, it should be included. BeŻet (talk) 12:51, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
• Yes - at least one sentence, it is/was big on social media and has been reported in detail in reputable outlets such as Vox, and also in Salon, Fox News, and Daily Caller. Danski14^(talk) 12:55, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
• Yes - the content is relevant, notable, and sourced, just keep it minimal unless it becomes a bigger issue. --Waters.Justin (talk) 14:05, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
• Yes - notable issue covered in sufficient reliable sources. Can and will be expanded as this develops. ɱ (talk) 14:40, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
• Yes - sufficiently covered, as per Davemoth. The Verified Cactus 100% 18:40, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
  • This vote cites Davemoth's argument for inclusion. Davemoth's vote gave primary importance to the fact that a purported RS, "The Hill", had reported the allegations. But that's not the case. It was "The Hill Rising", a webshow on the Hill website, which is hosted by two cranks, that covered the allegations. It's akin to citing Sean Hannity's show and saying "Fox News is a RS, therefore this Sean Hannity video is a reliable source". Votes by editors who cannot tell what a RS is or who choose to intentionally mislead others about the contents of the sources they are citing should be dismissed by the closer of this RfC. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:11, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
• Comment - anecdotally, I have seen on Twitter major bot activity that is certainly one of the reasons this story was trending a few days ago on the platform — accounts spamming identical or extremely similar replies and tweets with hashtags about it. This does not mean it is not a notable story that should be here (I am not experienced enough with notability to really have a certain opinion), but if one reason you are thinking it might be notable is that you saw it all over Twitter, remember that at least part of the reason for that is some very clear bot activity. Probably similar things are true on other social media platforms. DemonDays64 (talk) 20:46, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

  It does not look like Twitter has been used as direct source anywhere here. We should not be looking at Twitter for notability as it is a self published micro-blog platform. I have not seen any significant or serious entries in this talk page using twitter as more than a passing reference to this background.--Davemoth (talk) 21:05, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

  @Davemoth: true, it just seemed like something that could be subconsciously influencing people that they saw it trending. DemonDays64 (talk) 21:40, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

• Not yet I don't believe that the media coverage of this allegation at the moment is sufficient to meet due weight; it looks like most of the US media do not want to touch the issue. I find neutrality's argument to be very persuasive. buidhe 22:56, 1 April 2020 (UTC) Yes, brief mention After additional coverage I think it has become DUE to mention, along with Biden campaign's denial and former staffers' comments that they do not recall the alleged incident. buidhe 22:02, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
• No Due to lack of strong and reliable sources. Idealigic (talk) 23:03, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
• Yes - I don't understand the NOs. The allegation exists in the form of video and audio interviews. Therefore, we don't need a mainstream outlet to verify that the allegation itself exists. Add to this that it has been reported on my mid-tear (if not top-tier) outlets AND the fact the campaign deemed it important enough to respond to. Add to this, furthermore, that the Biden campaign's own response acknowledges and "encourages" that the story be told.
• All that needs to happen is that the allegation and official response be acknowledged. Perhaps even include that mainstream outlets have not covered it since these mid-tier outlets have voiced this very thing. This way the article will acknowledge this truth about lack of mainstream coverage which is of main concern to the NOs here. The allegation exists in video/audio form.
• The outlets that gave coverage to the allegations have wikipedia pages which can be linked to to provide readers perspective on status of said outlets and any particular leanings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nandofan (talk • contribs) 01:13, 2 April 2020 (UTC) — Nandofan (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • The position of the Nos is not that question whether Tara Reade made the accusation but whether it has received sufficient coverage in the media to be included. It's not that one requires verification from the major news outlets, its that if it has not received any coverage by them it means it is insignificant to this article. According to policy that is the criterion for inclusion. By comparison, I could probably find a source for the name of Biden's grade three teacher, but would not add it unless the body of news reporting about Biden considered it important enough to report. Whether or not the media are doing a good job in reporting is a good question, but we can't second guess them without changing policy first. Note that an allegation against Trump of the rape of a minor has been excluded from his page for similar reasons. TFD (talk) 01:47, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

    "According to policy that is the criterion for inclusion." I disagree - policy does not list "major outlets" and states that we need multiple mainstream sources. Mainstream is not defined and it can be implied that it means sources that consensus consider reliable. If any of those are biased or partisan we should beware of them, but not automatically exclude them. In this case we have multiple (Intercept, Vox, The Hill, Fox) sources that are all considered reliable. There is absolutely nothing that either defines or requires major outlets. I obviously can't speak for all the Yes votes, but some of us (to steal your statement): The position of the Yes votes is not that question whether Tara Reade made the accusation but whether it has received sufficient coverage in the media to be included. The difference between the Yes and No is that we believe it has actually received sufficient coverage and has received (other than statement by Biden's staff) no contradiction from any significant source.--Davemoth (talk) 03:16, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

• Yes - Biden has come out forcefully in favor the the Me Too movement, there are multiple reliable sources covering the topic, and the alleged victim is out publicly with her story under her name giving her credibility. It should perhaps be worked into his position on sexual assault/Me Too movement stating his position as well as the fact that he has been accused of sexual assault.Patapsco913 (talk) 01:35, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
• Yes - Given the huge number of media sources mentioning the allegations. Earlier editors argued that there were no mainstream media coverage but now there is from Fox News, The Guardian and Washington Times. That the reporting may be damaging to Joe Biden's presidential campaign is not a reason to leave it out of the article. ImTheIP (talk) 06:37, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
• Yes - I support a reasonably brief mention, including Biden's team's response. Considering Biden's history with false or misleading statements, we shouldn't ignore an allegation based on his or his team's denial. Further, the allegations are fairly consistent with the others we include, so there's no reason to wait for pro-Biden media such as CNN to cover the claims to consider them noteworthy. For balance, we should include a note of Reade's stated political allegiances, and let the reader decide who to believe. UpdateNerd (talk) 10:41, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
• No It's been almost ten days since this report was released to the media and neither the NYT or WashPo has responded. Wikipedia does not report breaking news in our BLPs. When and if these outlets report this extremely serious charge of sexual assault we should report it as well per our policy to include negative information if it is well-sourced. Gandydancer (talk) 18:30, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Literally only those two outlets, or any national newspaper? Magazines like The Economist are not sufficient? Kolya Butternut (talk) 19:18, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

    One salient quote from the Economist: The most striking thing about Ms Reade’s story may be the silence with which it has been greeted. Most of the coverage mentions this. petrarchan47คุก 03:11, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

    It's worth pointing out that like CNN, the NYT has a proven track record of favoring certain political candidates in their reporting. You can't expect them to report fairly when they run articles like "Why Biden Is the Change Candidate". UpdateNerd (talk) 11:18, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

    @UpdateNerd: Once again, you are confusing EDITORIAL/OPINION pieces with REPORTING/JOURNALISM. While it is true an organization such as the New York Times will indulge itself in editorial endorsements and give column inches to opinion writers, it keeps those aspect separate from straight reporting. It is one of the reasons the organization is treated as a "paper of record" by most of the world. The same is true of most reliable sources. Some organizations, like Fox News for example, seem unable to separate these two aspects; consequently, they are seen as less reliable. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:51, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

    I wasn't confused, but you raise a good point. Nevertheless, the bias is undeniable whether left- or right-leaning. UpdateNerd (talk) 12:56, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

    It's not undeniable because he just denied it. Unbelievably, there are still many who believe that DNC propaganda teams like the New York Times, CNN, and the Washington Post are "fair, objective, non-partisan, and neutral." A better word to describe the corruption and bias may be "irrefutable," since I have never seen a convincing argument to back up this ludicrous "no bias in the media except conservative-leaning media" thesis. 2600:1700:D281:27D0:811:1608:C616:17D3 (talk) 14:24, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

    Well it depends on the reporter, no matter the outlet. I want to say "propaganda" is too strong a term, but it hasn't been true this election. I've seen the NYT & CNN promote their favored candidate, even against other Dems, to a classical level of bias. It may be the most transparent in opinion pieces, but it bleeds into their "reporting" on the election, as well as what they choose *not* to report on. UpdateNerd (talk) 16:41, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

    • I don't have a subscription to The Economist, but from the first couple of paragraphs it looks like yet another source that just recycles the original interview. Sources that repeat the same thing are not providing the kind of verification we are looking for. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:37, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
      • Maybe this has been discussed, but I believe that we only need sources that verify the allegation took place, because we are not stating in the article that the assault actually happened.  So, whether to include the allegation in this article is really a question of WP:Weight not verifiability.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 19:43, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
        • No, that would be an oversimplification. And frankly, this has been a significant problem with the way this RfC has developed. Almost all of the "sourcing" comes from the original interview. There's been no independent verification by any mainstream media sources beyond the standard denial by the Biden campaign. In fact, what we would consider the "normal" mainstream media sources have largely steered clear of the claim, which is telling. The fact is, if this claim is not gaining mainstream media traction, it strongly suggests the claim may be viewed as dubious. If that is the case, it fails to meet the WP:WEIGHT standard, because it does not rise above the "noise" level you expect with notable figures who are on the receiving end of what turn out to be spurious claims. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:49, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
          • But again, the fact that an allegation has been made is verifiable; we can all see the interview ourselves and any sources who have rehashed the story have surely seen the interview themselves. So... verifiability has been established through several RS. Kolya Butternut (talk) 19:59, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
            • That's an absurdly low bar to pass. Literally anyone with an axe to grind could give an interview accusing any public figure of anything, and by your standards we would have to include it here. Obviously that is not the case, which is why we look for significant coverage in a preponderance of mainstream reliable sources. Can you explain why so many of the usual mainstream reliable sources have ignored this story, despite it being a week old? -- Scjessey (talk) 20:07, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
              • Yes, if the allegations gains media traction and are noteworthy enough they should be included. Tara Reade's allegations passes both bars and hence should be included. For example, the allegations have been covered by economist. The mainstream sources CNN, MSNBC, and The New York Times, which have not been covering the allegations may be ignoring them because they don't want to hurt Joe Biden's presidential campaign.

              The deciding factors are whether the allegations are noteworthy and have been covered by verifiable sources. In this case they have and therefore they should be included in the article. ImTheIP (talk) 04:12, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

        Scjessey I don't think your statement above is accurate. By my count The Hill, Vox, and Fox (for generally reliable sources) and Newsweek (less reliable) have done at least 1 independent interview with Reade and/or with Biden staff. They rightly reference The Intercept (broke the story in reference to the podcast), but each have done independent verification.--Davemoth (talk) 20:11, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

        I feel like you're not hearing me.  The allegation is readily verifiable, RS who have rehashed the story have verified that the allegations simply exists, so what we have to determine is whether to give it weight.  WP:V has been met.  Has WP:Weight?  Kolya Butternut (talk) 20:17, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

        And you are not hearing me. It has received very little mainstream media coverage. It is not to be found on MSNBC, CNN, CBS News, ABC News, or any of the big newspapers like NYT, WaPo, WSJ, Chicago Tribune, LA Times, SF Chronicle, or a bunch of others. This LACK of coverage CONFIRMS that it doesn't pass WP:WEIGHT, which says that in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources. It cannot be said to be prevalent at all. I'm frankly mystified that this isn't blindingly obvious. Again, I ask you why do you think so many mainstream reliable sources have ignored the story? -- Scjessey (talk) 20:25, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

        Sorry, that was a rhetorical question. So I hope we now agree that this passes WP:V, and we can focus now on WP:WEIGHT.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 20:27, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

        Oh, to your question: I think it's pretty obvious that those mainstream news sources are not good RS for stories like this; I think they have a demonstrated record of bias in favor of corporate Democrats  Kolya Butternut (talk) 21:12, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

        Petra, this Salon article sums up my position quite well. [23]Gandydancer (talk) 06:22, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

        I think a source like Salon, which has not earned WP's stamp of reliability, deserves a bit of investigation before it should be trusted. In this case, the reporter who broke this allegation story, the esteemed Ryan Grim (who also broke the Kavanaugh story), caught the Salon writer fabricating one claim in the article that resulted in a smear of the accuser (see thread). This piece by Hill TV is a good, thourough assessment of that particular article (watch here). petrarchan47คุก 15:48, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

        • Salon was forced to amend the article. petrarchan47คุก 16:34, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

• Not yet There has been some coverage from reliable sources but not enough to warrant inclusion at this stage. It's similar to the Trump Jane Doe case in terms of coverage right now. Worth revisiting if that changes.LM2000 (talk) 21:42, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
  • The Jane Doe case is different because she was anonymous.[24] Tara Reade has given several recorded interviews. Jane Doe RfC Kolya Butternut (talk) 00:59, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
    • Roe v. Wade was anonymous too. TFD (talk) 04:11, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
      • I was referencing the Doe case to compare the coverage, not the nature of the cases themselves.LM2000 (talk) 06:43, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

The Economist magazine now has an article on the incident.

• "How to weigh an allegation of assault against Joe Biden - Democrats who thought Brett Kavanaugh should not be on the Supreme Court are ignoring Mr Biden's accuser". The Economist. April 4, 2020. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Patapsco913 (talk • contribs) 02:52, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
• Yes The claim seems more credible than the ones made against Brett Kavanaugh that we allow multiple paragraphs on here. There are plenty sources that discuss it and even ask why the mainstream media is ignoring it[25] even though its not apparently the only time he's behaved inappropriately [26].--MONGO (talk) 05:29, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
  • With respect, if mainstream sources are "ignoring" it, that's precisely why we wouldn't include it in the article. We don't discuss fringe material and we don't right great wrongs. – Juliancolton | ^Talk 05:33, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
    • I guess different people understand what "mainstream sources" are in different ways. Mainstream media outlets should never dictate what should and should not be included on Wikipedia. Each media outlet has an agenda. The story has definitely been reported in big media outlets (Newsweek, Fox News, Huffington Post etc.) but has not been reported by "mainstream" "liberal" media (like CNN or MSNBC), who are so far ignoring the story completely. BeŻet (talk) 12:36, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
      • I'm not sure why this has to be constantly be repeated, but perhaps it is necessary. Newsweek is a poor source since it ceased being a newspaper. Fox News is not a reliable source in the Real World. Huffington Post is a news aggregator that, like Newsweek, is a clickbait site. Where's WaPo? Where's NYT? Where's WSJ? We need proper, reliable mainstream media sources. Also, allegations against other individuals being mentioned here as "justification" for violating WP:WEIGHT had massive coverage across all sources, which this absolutely does not. Why is this still up for debate? Madness. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:20, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
      • There is plenty of other news right now for all news to report on but I concur that we are not beholdened by what is offered or not offered by hypocritical left of center new sources. There are more than adequate sources to support this short mention as it also includes the Biden campaigns denial, which is of course to be expected. Scjessey, FoxNews IS deemed reliable by Wikipedia as shown by multiple Rfcs.--MONGO (talk) 14:39, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

        WRONG. Fox News is only reliable for what Fox News says, but it is not reliable for anything else. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:41, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

        Then draw up a new Rfc and see if you can succeed in getting it disqualifed.--MONGO (talk) 14:45, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

        • Scjessey, there is no policy that says we must wait until a few certain sources carry information before we can include it. There is only WP:RS. There is no WP:BUTONLYTHESERS. If the burden of DUE is overcome by other RS not including WaPo, NYT, or CNN, then we can freely include it here. Wikipedia collects knowledge from a broad spectrum, not simply just 3 US news organizations who can't and don't cover everything. Mr Ernie (talk) 15:06, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
          • @Mr Ernie: There's no policy that says we must wait for certain sources; however, we do expect BLPs to be based on the prevailing view in a preponderance of reliable sources. As I have stated before, the fact that almost none of the usual mainstream reliable sources that cover politicians have covered this allegation is very telling. In fact, one could reasonably state that the absence of coverage indicates the skepticism on the part of the mainstream media. Sufficient time has now passed that one would have expected these better sources to have covered the story, but they haven't. Why do you suppose that is? Why do you suppose only low quality sources associated with Biden opponents have covered it? -- Scjessey (talk) 17:58, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
            • Yes, that is a good point and I do not know why. This seems to be a departure from the multitude of the "believe all women" articles that were run alongside the Kavanaugh allegations. Both the Biden and Kavanaugh accusations were both a bit short on verifiable facts, but stemmed from the credibility of the accusations themselves. What makes Reade any less credible that Blasey Ford? I don't know the answer to that. But with Kavanaugh we also saw that two of the claims, one on that boat and the other in Colorado, were falsehoods. What is different about the Reade claim and the Blasey Ford claim? What facts are WaPo, NYT, et al party to about the Reade claim that weren't there with the Blasey Ford claim? What's the main difference between the two men? I think the main outlets are doing us a disservice by not reporting why they don't think the Reade allegation is notable enough to report about, when other RS have found that it is. Mr Ernie (talk) 18:13, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
• Comment MONGO says: "The claim seems more credible than the ones made against Brett Kavanaugh". Complete nonsense. You have a source which says this or are you just making stuff up? Volunteer Marek 18:06, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
  • I would say the claims are quite similar. Both are nearly impossible to verify and both were denied by the alleged offending party. However one received near universal coverage and the other didn't run in the major US outlets. One was corroborated by witnesses at the time and the other denied by the witnesses at the time. Is that an issue with the allegations or with those that cover such stories? Mr Ernie (talk) 18:13, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Whether or not the claim is true is irrevalant here (no, I’m not going to post to that Medium piece again. Nor even the Salon piece) What does matter is how reliable sources discuss the claim. The Kavanaugh accusations (which should not be brought up as per WP:OTHERSTUFF) have been discussed in The New York Times, The Washington Post, Reuters, Wall Street Journal, etc. The Biden sexual assualt accusion (which is different than the sexual harassment allegations from last year) has not had coverage from any of these top-level sources as of today. Samboy (talk) 21:33, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
• Comment - a minor pause to acknowledge the obvious concerns stemming from what appears to be confusion over RS and the material we are allowed to include. See WP:NEWSORG, since that is what we are dealing with now rather than scholarly sources written with retrospect. With relevance to WP:PUBLICFIGURE and NEWSORG, our guidelines say we can...:

  1. [take] information from opinion content, the identity of the author may help determine reliability. The opinions of specialists and recognized experts are more likely to be reliable and to reflect a significant viewpoint.[notes 2] If the statement is not authoritative, attribute the opinion to the author in the text of the article and do not represent it as fact. Reviews for books, movies, art, etc. can be opinion, summary or scholarly pieces.[7][8]
  2. The reporting of rumors has a limited encyclopedic value, although in some instances verifiable information about rumors may be appropriate (i.e. if the rumors themselves are noteworthy, regardless of whether or not they are true).

  ...resume the usual banter, please. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 18:40, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

  • None of the opinion pieces are presented are by recognized experts. As policy says, Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact. If recognized experts like Alan Dershowitz or Laurence Tribe write about the case, it would be rs. TFD (talk) 20:14, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

  What part of the above or the following is not clear to you, TFD - If the statement is not authoritative, attribute the opinion to the author in the text of the article and do not represent it as fact.? We include it - we just don't say it in WikiVoice as fact. It is an allegation, not a fact, and the author is simply quoting what someone else said, not expressing their own opinion. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 00:33, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

  I did not say anything was not clear to me. If you cannot understand what other editors say or what policy or guidelines say, I don't understand what you are arguing about. TFD (talk) 03:33, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

  As someone who feels 4 Deuces has a better argument than Atsme here (For something as WP:EXTRAORDINARY as this rape allegation, we need mainstream coverage, not just coverage from otherwise reliable sources), and as someone who understands the frustration with being cooped up, please assume good faith and please do not make it personal. We need to stay calm and collected here and not make things a personal mudfest. Thank you. Samboy (talk) 04:56, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

• Yes. It is important we mention this significant event. There are sources, and Wikipedia covers other allegations just like this one. But it is important we describe the allegation in an unbiased manner. Ma nam is geoffrey (talk) (talk) 18:21, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
• Comment the personal opinions of users as to whether these allegations are truthful or credible are immaterial and should be ignored by the closer as they do not meet the standard of a policy-based argument. Wikipedia should include information published in WP:RS in a way that is mediated by WP:DUE and WP:BLP. It is a fact that these allegations exist; we're discussing whether to mention these allegations, not whether they are true. Your personal thoughts on whether said allegations are true are irrelevant.Jancarcu (talk) 19:00, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
• WGBH-TV makes the very plausible argument that perhaps media coverage of coronavirus has eclipsed the recent allegation of sexual assault against Biden. UpdateNerd (talk) 16:47, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

  Perhaps the CV has created busy newrooms such that in-depth investigative reporting on this allegation must wait, however mentioning the verifiable facts that the allegation was made, and that Biden has denied it (which is all we are proposing to include here) was no problem for many outlets such as Vox, The Economist, Huffington Post, The Intercept, Fox News, and others. WGBH segment asks why Biden has yet to "face scrutiny", which is different from reporting simple facts amid the CV crisis.

  It's not a bad piece, except it contains a few errors. She never said she wasn't wearing underwear, rather that she had no pantyhose on. She didn't "change her story", she always said there was more to it but wasn't ready to come out until last month.petrarchan47คุก 18:36, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

  This is not because of COVID. Just do a Google news search for Joe Biden to see all the frivolous pieces published by the more popular media over the past two weeks. Kolya Butternut (talk) 01:42, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

• Yes There seems to well be enough coverage, not just Fox but Newsweek, Vox, The Guardian etc. Vox even states that it has "ignited a firestorm of controversy". I think it would be an odd editorial stance to leave this completely out of the article. --Pudeo (talk) 12:21, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• Neutral. If there's reporting by high-quality RS, then yes. If it's to be included with this low-quality sourcing, then it should be added as one sentence to the preexisting section in Biden's article on his inappropriate touching. The sentence could say: "In 2020, Biden was accused of sexual assault by a woman; the Biden campaign denied the accusation." I will also expect the numerous editors who would usually staunchly oppose adding similarly poorly sourced content on the pages of conservative politicians to consistently apply their newfound principles to future content disputes on pages related to conservatism. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:30, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

  Not "a" woman. Eight.[27] Eight brave women have come forward to speak their truth about their experiences with Joe Biden. That doesn't include any of the children in this report[28], who Joe Biden is seen massaging, stroking, and attempting to provide with unwanted kisses. As for the application of "newfound principles" to "conservative politicians," one can only note that Christine Ford, Deborah Ramirez, and Julie Swetnick all have their own bolded sections on Justice Kavanaugh's page, and none of them have any evidence or corroboration (only contradicting statements) to back their claims. But hey, it's on TV and in the newspaper, so it must be true. Really though, at this point, Joe Biden sexual misconduct allegations should not be in red font. 2600:1700:D281:27D0:C58B:4E79:1EDD:8409 (talk) 04:27, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

  And the article already mentions "inappropriate touching" of women and children. While I accept that not everything on TV and in the newspapers is true, those are the sources we use. "Verifiability, not truth." TFD (talk) 13:14, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

• Not Yet - not enough WEIGHT at this time. It seems recent, so maybe in another few weeks. Googling I see 146 Million hits for Biden, and adding sexual assault Reade only 176 thousand show up. Only a 0.1% prominence doesn’t feel DUE coverage. Biden and sexual assault is showing 7.8 M hits though so may be something there. While the story is being presented by major outlets (e.g. CNN, Guardian, Newsweek, etc) as are mentions of other women (Lapps and Flores)... this particular one does not seem enough WEIGHT at this time. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 06:03, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
• Yes - Should've been done a long time ago. And to wait for MSM to cover stuff that makes "their" candidate look bad is like waiting for end of time. It looks like a clear consensus is made in favor of including the sexual assault, and it's time to wrap this up. Beatitudinem (talk) 13:42, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

  Any !votes based on the claim the mainstream media is in the tank for Biden, rather than based on Wikipedia policies, should be ignored by the closer of this RfC. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:59, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

  I agree with you that this should be about policy. I don't think Beatitudinem (or few other Yes !votes) has based their vote on that. I think their point is more that waiting for each editor's 'perfect' sources is a fool's errand.--Davemoth (talk) 16:03, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

  If people just claim that top-tier sources are silent because of their bias as a blanket statement then I agree. But in this case, that hypothesis is made in some of the mid-tier reliable sources we have. Therefore it can be connected to policy. Connor Behan (talk) 17:27, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

• Yes, include at least a short paragraph describing the allegation, Biden's response, and at least some aspect of the public and media response (e.g. noted by Pudeo above). -Darouet (talk) 16:37, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
• Yes Limit to to about three sentences, describing the allegations and the Biden team's denial. There is no real concern over the sourcing per Davemoth's analysis here. As to WP:WEIGHT, as Current Affairs ([29]) and others have noted, this accusation fits into a pattern of allegations of inappropriate touching. It is not our place as editors to exclude the assault allegation simply because it appears to be a step up from what was reported in Apr 2019. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 22:59, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
  • • This editor again cites Davemoth's poorly based rationale for adding the content, which includes the false claim that a webshow hosted on the Hill website (by two cranks) is a RS. Current Affairs is an avowedly pro-Bernie Sanders website and has published a slew of downright embarrassing articles - not a RS or an indicator of notability. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 23:14, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
      • Even discounting the webshow previously claimed to be hosted on The Hill, there is still Vox and "a slew" of other RS per Atsme. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 23:35, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
• Comment Alyssa Milano has explained why Time's Up refused to fund Reade's claims.[30] She said the allegation was insufficient to launch an investigation and said that if the claims were credible then mainstream media would cover them. She pointed out that she had waited before publicly commenting on allegations against Harvey Weinstein and Brett Kavanaugh until they received substantial coverage. (I am using Fox News as a source for her comments because it is the only major news media to cover them.) If this article is to be fair and balanced, her comments should be included, as well as those who criticized her and her reactions to these criticisms. We can't just say that accusations have been made and denied, because it leaves the reader with no criteria with which to decide how credible the claims are. TFD (talk) 12:05, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
  • So, in other words, you don't think the allegation merits inclusion at all despite multiple WP:RS, but if included would require balancing with a celebrity's opinion because it aligns with your perspective? Zloyvolsheb (talk) 15:46, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
    • No, I am saying that if we decide a topic ignored in mainstream media (except Fox News) meets weight, then we have to provide the same weight to the topic as the alternative sources we use. And they all have cited Milano's interview as part of the story. Milano is treated in the media as a de facto spokesperson for "Time's Up." which was founded by celebrities. You will note that the Me Too movement arose after allegations of sexual assault against Hollywood executives. Hollywood employs celebrities. Milano originally coined the Me Too hashtag. It's important to understand what alternative media have written about the case and to have a general understanding of Me Too and Time's Up when deciding what should be in the article. TFD (talk) 04:18, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
      • I'm not personally a fan of Fox, but to be fair it is seen as "generally reliable" by the Wikipedia community per WP:RSP. So is The Times, also mainstream, among other sources. But speaking of Alyssa Milano and Fox, would you like to include Rose McGowan, who's also weighed in on Biden? [31] Zloyvolsheb (talk) 04:53, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
        • In the Intercept article it was explained clearly that Time’s Up told Tara they couldn’t help her because they feared loosing their tax exempt status. It’s not clear why Milano would make this up when anyone can prove her wrong in seconds.
        • From ‘’Law and Crime’’ “While we were engaged with her, we informed Ms. Reade that our 501(c)(3) precluded us from funding [public relations] and associated legal fees for her. That status mandates a strict and absolute prohibition on participating in electioneering or political campaign activity, and in this situation, we were dealing with the involvement of a candidate and close proximity to primary elections. Ms. Reade said she understood our position–and publicly confirmed this in an interview with Rising on March 26. Ms. Reade continued to engage with us in trying to find attorneys who might provide her assistance not contingent on our funding, until our conversation with her on March 2 after which we have not heard from her. We maintained then–as we do now–that we are willing to continue to try to find Ms. Reade legal assistance; we simply cannot fund any fees associated with that activity.” petrarchan47คุก 05:33, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
          • That's what they say but other sources say that was a cover. Following your paradigm, we need to publish all interpretations. And the story just got bigger as Rose McGowan called Milano a fraud. Meanwhile no mention whatsoever in ABC, CBS or NBC News or the New York Times or USA Today, although a brief mention was made in the Washington Post. TFD (talk) 23:57, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
            • What "other sources" are you considering RS for this ""cover" conspiracy?
            • Tara Reade today tweeted, Any attempt to say my case was not accepted in an effort to defame or smear me will not stand. I have 20 emails. Retract your defamatory statement immediately @Alyssa_Milano petrarchan47คุก 02:14, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
• Yes, one to two sentences should be suitable to cover the controversy. I know that this is already a big article, but this has been given plenty of mainstream media coverage and does deserve maybe two sentences. Worldlywise (talk) 16:26, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
• Yes, I believe a few sentences would be sufficient. However, do be wary as this is still a developing situation and although may be unrelated, an edit to Me_Too_movement should be looked at as well now that it seems to be gaining traction. Elli21486 (talk) 18:28, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
• Yes. This allegation has showed up in enough publications that I was surprised when I came to this article and found zero mention of it, even in the multi-paragraph "Controversies" section. Einsof (talk) 19:34, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
• Canvassing. A subreddit comprised largely of fringe kooks of one sort or another is directing people towards this RfC. The people on that subreddit generally have Wikipedia editing experience (usually Wikipedia editors who are disgruntled that content on Wikipedia doesn't reflect their warped views of the world), so there may be experienced accounts in this RfC who have been drawn here solely due to that reddit thread. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 20:23, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

  Assuming the speculation above is true, which ironically is in solid NOTAFORUM territory, it shouldn't make a difference outside of normal disruption housekeeping concerns. For the purposes of this RfC, it doesn't matter how many editors come to the page or whether you feel that their worldview is "warped." What matters is if Tara Reade's powerful story is covered in what Wikipedia believes to be reliable sources, which it is. As Muboshgu wisely pointed out today, RfC results aren't determined by a count of !votes from each side. There shouldn't have been an RfC or full page protection here for such a cut and dry content addition, but now that there is it should clearly have been wrapped up within days of its opening. 2600:1700:D281:27D0:190D:415B:22E4:83C0 (talk) 20:52, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

  Snooganssnoogans, which subreddit? I imagine the RfCs closing admin will want to know where comments (like the above) originated from. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:00, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

  Oh, I forgot to link to it: https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiInAction/comments/fuduz7/how_a_handful_of_media_outlets_shape_wikipedia/ Snooganssnoogans (talk) 21:25, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

  So fix it: Wikipedia:Centralized discussion. But beware of the Streisand effect. Calling them "fringe kooks of one sort or another" isn't very becoming of the Wikipedia ideal, which is to edit with a neutral mindset. Their opinions may not be mainstream, but they hardly seem crazy. And if we're not counting !votes, numbers shouldn't matter. wbm1058 (talk) 22:50, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

  Fixed - added to centralized discussion on April 8, 2020. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 18:55, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

  This is my first time coming across that subreddit, and ugh, it's existence is infuriating. Discussions about Wikipedia should take place on Wikipedia, where if you start to do something like canvassing, you can be held accountable. There's no accountability on that subreddit for posts like the linked one, and no way to tell how many of the !voters here were canvassed there. If we can identify the accounts posting there to reprimand them, or take other action to try to shut it down, we absolutely should. And regarding WP:CENT, this really shouldn't have to go there since it affects only a single article, not anything project-wide, but it may be necessary to clog it up now to combat the canvassing. (Or this discussion should just be closed, since it's had plenty of participation and there's little left unsaid.) {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:25, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

  There are many, many places all over the Internet where discussion about Wikipedia is taking place. You could ask Reddit and other tech companies to "shut down" any speech involving this website, but I don't know how much success one would have. As others have stated, whether or not anyone was canvassed here is fairly irrelevant unless overt disruption is occurring. The reasons behind the votes is what the closer must weigh, which essentially comes down to: "Is Tara Reade's powerful story covered in The Reliable Sources?" This question of course has already been answered, so we're all just waiting for the RfC closure and subsequent unlocking of the page so that we can update the article. 2600:1700:D281:27D0:16E:24F:DC8B:C531 (talk) 20:48, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

• Yes. I disagree that we should not include controversies and allegations unless they have 'sufficient coverage'. I do not believe that political bias is the reason behind the lack of media coverage; it is likely because of the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic. Another allegation of sexual assault is simply not important enough to report on at this time. It is, however, notable enough to include as a brief entry on a public figure running for office. MassAffected (talk) 14:04, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
• No, not yet, per the reasons provided by MelanieN and Neutrality. Aoi (青い) (talk) 14:13, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
• Yes a few sentences would be sufficient should be suitable to cover the controversy as it is sourced in the The Economist and The Guardian amongst others.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 17:46, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
• Yes It should definitely be included as it is being published by a variety of news sources and is surprising to see it not included on this page. A few sentences should suffice - no need for a large article on the subject. Also - the fact is that she is accusing him of sexual assault and his campaign has responded which makes it noteworthy enough to be included in this article. (NOTE - Multiple reliable sources have covered that his deputy campaign manager Kate Bedingfield has denied these claims - so although the allegation itself isn't documented well - it has been documented that his campaign has responded and denied the allegations. - Must include per WP:BLPPUBLIC)willydrach^talk 18:06, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

References

• You lost me when you cited The Daily Mail as a source. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:49, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

  At this point it should be clear to any honest editor that Tara Reade's experience, along with those of the other 7-8 women who have come forward to share their highly credible allegations, should be documented in this article as well as a separate Joe Biden sexual assault allegations article. There are simply too many allegations of misconduct, covered in reliable sources, to ignore. I understand the administration's predicament. If an admin closes the RfC in favor of "include," they risk losing their liberal card and possibly even their admin powers as retaliation for not doing their part to help "defeat the most dangerous president in our history." If an admin closes the RfC in favor of "exclude," they lose all credibility and any pretense of this being a neutral, objective, non-partisan encyclopedia. It's a tough spot, but someone needs to step up. It's been over a week. 2600:1700:D281:27D0:74EB:63F2:9FA7:AD33 (talk) 18:57, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

  While I do think the allegations are noteworthy and should be included in this article, I am not sure if I agree on the need for whole page on the subject. I do hope and trust that editors alike can put aside political bias and adjudicate this RfC accordingly based on WikiPedia rules for the benefit of the readers here. ^talk 9:59, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

  I hope so too, but I'm not holding my breath given precedent. Also I wasn't advocating for a separate page just for Tara Reade, rather all eight women. Bill Clinton sexual misconduct allegations was created with just four credible allegations. Brett Kavanaugh's sexual assault allegations isn't its own page, but there are 10(!) paragraphs devoted to Christine Ford's claim (for which there is no evidence or corroboration, which her best friend says is false and revealed that she was pressured by the FBI to falsely corroborate), and two other claims of which there is no evidence or corroboration that have their own paragraphs. Joe Biden has had eight women come forward, and many of the allegations are on videotape. The allegations should have their own article. It's just too much to ignore. 2600:1700:D281:27D0:74EB:63F2:9FA7:AD33 (talk) 00:54, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Maybe after you get more experience than just editing this RfC you will realize that this in not how we do things here. We're not here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. - MrX 🖋 11:11, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Not one of the sources you listed is acceptable for such material, and WP:BLPPUBLIC does not require us to include anything. WP:BLP has to be taken as a whole, and WP:DUEWEIGHT requires that we don't amplify something with sparse coverage. - MrX 🖋 11:11, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

• Yes I'm British and so have no partisan interest in this; I'm just here because it's listed at WP:CENT. The newspaper which I find most reliable and respectable is The Economist and they have some coverage of the matter. If we consider other recent high-profile cases such as Alex Salmond and George Pell, we see that the allegations are covered in their Wikipedia articles, even though they have both been acquitted. We already have a section about other similar allegations in Biden's article and so it seems reasonable to include a brief mention of this one too. Andrew🐉(talk) 19:59, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
• Comment - If ya'll are waiting for CNN & MSNBC to cover this story? It's gonna be a long wait. GoodDay (talk) 22:22, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Long wait indeed. The story is now being covered by Britain's The Independent [32], Spanish TV Channel Antena 3 [33] and Czech Public Radio [34]. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 22:34, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

• The article in The Independent is not "coverage" — it is a piece in the "arts and entertainment" section about one celebrity attacking another celebrity on Twitter for her support of Biden, and referencing the allegation in her tweet. That is what you're choosing to hang your hat on? Neutrality^talk 20:49, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

• I am choosing to hang my hat on the combined coverage across multiple sources: first and foremost would be sources like The Intercept, The Times, Vox, and Fox News - all sources which the community has accepted, and the additional coverage in dozens of other sources, which has now gone worldwide. Some of the additional coverage reflects the split among the Me Too figures Milano and McGowan over supporting Biden or Reade. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 21:31, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

• Support per User:petrarchan47. The plethora of RSs as demonstrated show that this is worthy of inclusion and is WP:DUE weight. Furthermore, it passes WP:REDFLAG as multiple RSs have described the topic in detail. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 00:42, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
• No BLP says to use caution on stories that are this outlandish and still evolving. Wikipedia is also not a tabloid and this is still a questionable story. Also I see quite a few new accounts supporting its addition. That also raises more questions. ContentEditman (talk) 01:35, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
  • I checked and didn't find more than 1-2 newish accounts on the Yes side. Really? Zloyvolsheb (talk) 03:06, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
• Not yet There is a reason why these allegations have not yet been reported in mainstream media - they have not been properly fact-checked. Until that happens they should not be mentioned in the article per BLP. P-K3 (talk) 11:08, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
• Comment Most of the "yes" votes suggest "a very brief mention", "two or three sentences", etc. How can you mention in a biography of a living person that they were charged with a sexual assault very briefly in less than three sentences? You can't. I don't believe that this charge should be included until it has been investigated, which would result in extended coverage by all the major media outlets. If we decide to include it at this stage we must at least cover it with the full information that we have so far, not a couple of sentences. Gandydancer (talk) 13:45, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Which, BTW, makes it a Catch 22 in which by reporting it at length with a full recounting of what has transpired, we add weight to the charge and make it to seem to be a major episode in his life. ...best to leave it out for now and wait to see what develops, if anything. Gandydancer (talk) 13:58, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

• Yes At least something should be added as many news sources have begun to pick up the story. The intercept has a very good article covering why Times Up lawyers did not take the case. In a later update to the article, they claim to have reached out to Tara's brother and friend who confirmed that she did indeed relay the same events right after it happened in 1993.

(edit conflict) It already is a pretty big episode in his life. If my memory serves, supporters of then candidate Trump didn't think the salacious allegations against him warranted inclusion and the same for Kavanaugh during his appointment - but they were included, and separate articles were eventually created as more allegations were published. It's not about truth - it's about verifiability. And then there is perspective, which is why we have RfCs. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 16:11, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

"It's about 'verifiability.'" — Well, no, it's also about WEIGHT. WP:V: "Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion." Neutrality^talk 20:46, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

• Not now, although Reliable Sources will surely further investigate this and probably have more to say in the future. We will almost certainly have a clearer picture by the time this RFC closes.
  Given the overwhelming level of coverage of Biden it is a redflag that almost none of them report it, and most of the coverage that does exist is mostly reporting that it is not being covered. They often giving good reasons why reputable sources are being cautious. Per BLP we have to be cautious. Our job is to determine whether RS say it belongs in a biography, and (so far) they are largely saying no. Alsee (talk) 15:53, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
• Yes. Just looking at UK sources because those are the ones I'm more familiar with, we have coverage in The Times, The Independent, The Guardian, and The Economist. All of these are absolutely mainstream sources, considered generally reliable, and they cover a variety of political positions. the wub "?!" 20:21, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

• This is a distortion. These are, by and large, not "coverage" of the allegation. The Independent post is in the "arts and entertainment" section and about one celebrity attacking another celebrity on Twitter for her Biden support and referencing the allegation in her tweet. The Guardian post is a "Comment is Free" op-ed blog post. The Economist is a meta-piece opinion piece entitled "How to Weight an Allegation of Assault Against Joe Biden" that appears to be primarily mostly about media/political reaction, not the merits of the allegation. The Times of London mentions this allegation extremely briefly, it is not the focus of the article, nor is it mentioned in the first three paragraphs. This is basically cherry-picking. It is certainly insufficient to shoehorn a salacious claim into a BLP. Neutrality^talk 20:46, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

• User:Neutrality Do you consider the various articles from Fox, DailyMail & The Huffington Post on his deputy campaign adviser responding to the comments "insufficient" as well? His campaign obviously took the time to address the allegation which is noteworthy. --willydrach^talk 22:13, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

References

• Those are low-quality sources (the Daily Mail has actually been formally deprecated), but even if they were "reliable" this would fail the UNDUE and BLP tests. Just because a claim is denied doesn't mean it is noteworthy. Neutrality^talk 22:20, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

• Yes per Davemoth and the wub.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 20:37, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
• Yes: Supported by multiple reliable sources. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Media blackout#Contemporary. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:44, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
• Comment Is there a place where someone is keeping track of the reliable sources that have covered Tara Reade's brave decision to come forward and reveal her heartbreaking story of her experiences with Joe Biden? We have another one, that I haven't seen yet. The American Prospect wrote a piece detailing Reade's story, and the media's decision to largely ignore it.[35] The American Prospect, it should be noted, is not just a liberal news site - it describes its mission as "to advance liberal and progressive goals." In other words, their primary goal of the moment is to defeat Donald Trump. Yet they're still reporting it. I think we've exceeded a dozen reliable sources now. And this RfC is still open, and the page is still admin-only. Unfathomable. 2600:1700:D281:27D0:A488:2795:3925:B70B (talk) 05:27, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

• I think the list of sources is no longer being updated and newer ones are just scattered throughout the comments above. By the way, we now have two more. These are stories about the campaign and they still think Reade's allegation has enough weight. Connor Behan (talk) 19:04, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

• Yes - with the usual caveats it is notable, but any coverage we give needs to be due, and should not dwell on prurient content or allegations that are only there for the scandal value. Biographically this event is currently very minor, but as it evolves may become more significant and as such we then may expand the coverage. Koncorde (talk) 07:21, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
• Yes – The basic criteria of WP:BLPPUBLIC has been satisfied. We have multiple, major publications acknowledging that the allegations exist, and they are well-documented. Biden's camp has even responded with denial, which has also been reported. Both should be mentioned per the example given at this policy excerpt. Arguments against, which cite WP:EXCEPTIONAL, are misguided. This is not about the content behind the allegation or the likelihood that they're true/false. This is about the existence of allegations and their relevance to the subject, neither of which should be considered exceptional given the number of sources, both major and minor. It should also be taken into account the number of mainstream sources reporting on this outside of the US, some of which are even left-leaning (The Economist, The Guardian, etc.). The level of impartiality and objectivity from left-leaning, mainstream sources in the US could be compromised on the subject. After all, it's their leading presidential candidate. #WP:WORLDVIEW --GoneIn60 (talk) 08:50, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
• Yes But something does not feel right about the text. Its sources by I am unsure about the exact wording.Slatersteven (talk) 08:52, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
• Not yet Yes with rewrite Wait for WP:RS to cover it directly and not in op-eds. If there's something to this, reliable sources will follow. Let's give time to vet. Ratatosk Jones (talk) 10:48, 10 April 2020 (UTC) Good thing that we waited, since we now have reliable sourcing from the NYT. Obviously we can't use the text above (and we need to ditch weak sources like Newsweek and Heavy), and it needs to be rewritten in the light of the NYT article. Ratatosk Jones (talk) 05:39, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Not in op-eds? They are abundant. Just to name a few: Newsweek, HuffPost, Vox, Current Affairs, International Business Times --GoneIn60 (talk) 19:22, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

• Not yet Echoing the concerns of Alsee. If it is to be included, we must be very careful not to give undue weight to it, and I think a preceding sentence would be necessary detailing a) the previous allegation, n) the Biden campaign's response, and c) that Alyssa Milano has given a response detailing why Times Up did not take the case forward. However, first and foremost I urge caution, a principal we must follow on such topics with WP:BLP. I also worry about the effect of this RfC being directly linked in a popular subreddit, as Snooganssnoogans noted. Domeditrix (talk) 11:35, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
• Yes There are reliable sources (listed by others above) reporting on this. Some1 (talk) 21:39, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
• Yes its no different than the allegations that are on trump's page, and others. as stated above, the sources need to be better than the ones in the post and there are others posted above. hes the presumptive democratic nominee, the allegations are public, are newsworthy, but his response definitely must be included as well. ToeFungii (talk) 06:22, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
• Comment Business Insider has run a story regarding the newly filed criminal complaint here. Surely a criminal complaint against a presidential nominee is notable. Mr Ernie (talk) 10:46, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

  I saw this article also. For me, this elevates the matter into the same realm as the Stormy Daniels story with Trump. I'm still opposed to inclusion because of the lack of coverage in the more mainstream sources, but it has now reached the point where I find the lack of coverage somewhat perplexing. I can only conclude it's because of a lack of credibility, but I feel we're already past the point where that should matter. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:38, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

In no shape or form is Tara Reade's brave decision to come forward and reveal her harrowing experience "in the same realm" as two consenting adults having an encounter (which Trump denies even happened). Really disturbing that in 2020, someone would view sexual assault as suddenly "being elevated into the same realm" to consensual sex, but only after the victim files a criminal complaint. And no, it's not because of a "lack of credibility" that the pro-Biden media has largely ignored the story. It's because they're pro-Biden, as numerous editors have explained to you here. 2600:1700:D281:27D0:748C:E7F1:4144:831C (talk) 15:37, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Being in the "same realm" policywise is different from being in the same realm morally. Please WP:AGF. Connor Behan (talk) 15:58, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

• Mr. Ernie "criminal complaints" are filed all the time. This is not an indictment, just somebody taking her apparently non-notable grievance to the cops. Your "surely notable" opinion is Original Research and irrelevant. SPECIFICO talk 14:30, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Criminal complaints are filed against presidential nominees and written up in Business Insider all the time? Connor Behan (talk) 15:58, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

I think there's already consensus that publication in Business Insider doesn't meet the bar for automatic inclusion in the article. SPECIFICO talk 20:09, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

I specifically asked about Business Insider at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Media blackout#Contemporary and the consensus at the relkiable sources noticeboard was that it was not reliable. It's worth reading that discussion to see what sources were considered reliable. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:10, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

• I agree with User:Scjessey and User:SPECIFICO. We need better sources other than Newsweek, Daily Mail and Business Insider which are not the most reliable. This is a breaking news story. We should use caution in what we include. At a minimum we should at least have reliable reporting that MPD has acknowledged that a complaint has been received. Since the Statue of Limitations expired over 12 years ago on the alleged incident, which Ms. Reade has acknowledged, what purpose is served in filing a report? IMO we should wait and see what develops on this. CBS527^Talk 16:09, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
• Yes, with caveats: As much as I would prefer, above all else, coverage in the major United States newspapers, the criminal complaint and the overall weight of the sources (including British ones, but also The Hill, Current Affairs, etc.) altogether necessitate my vote for inclusion at this time. Naturally, we must be exceptionally careful about how we describe this claim; and a few sentences, at most, should be enough to detail it. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 19:00, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

From the New York Times, this morning: "Examining Tara Reade’s Sexual Assault Allegation Against Joe Biden" — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 14:52, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

• Yes per above. The story has been reported in several RS. Davey2116 (talk) 21:27, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
• Yes – multiple quality RSes have now reported on this, eg NYT, Economist. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 22:09, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
• Yes At first I was hesitant and had intended to vote no, as it hadn't been covered widely. But its now been picked up by the "big boys", like the NYTimes. I read their piece on it, and its clear that they did some exceptional journalism. We have the best sources talking about it, time to follow their lead. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 19:55, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
• Yes agree with what levivich said, multiple high quality sources like the NYT, Economist, NBC newsWashington Post etc. have reported this. This is also a public figure.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 21:55, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
• Yes. NYT and many other reliable sources have reported this. I would modify the proposed language by adding the recent NYT article as a source for the claims. Mdaniels5757 (talk) 21:49, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Proposed closure

• Proposed Closure At the moment, this RFC has been open 10 day and is over 20,000 words. Since the issue is a contentious one it will require an excessive amount of time for a single closer. I propose that we request a multiple, non-involved administrator close. Thoughts? CBS527^Talk 17:08, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

  RfCs usually run a lot longer than just 10 days. Typically they run at least twice as long as that, and often as long as a month. Given that we apparently have a canvassing issue with an off-wiki website, it would be prudent to let this run a bit longer. Fortunately, we are in no hurry. Wikipedia is not a news website and with something so controversial, we can afford to let everyone have their say. It will also give time for some of the more respected mainstream media sources to have a chance to weigh in. Now that Biden is the presumptive nominee of the Democratic Party and all eyes will be upon him, the abundance of coverage (or lack thereof) will likely decide this issue anyway. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:53, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

  What was the amount of time between Christine Ford's evidence-free accusation was pushed out by the media and the first of ten detailed paragraphs were written in Brett Kavanaugh's biography? Was it more than an hour? I don't think it was more than an hour. I think it was less than an hour. No "admin-only" page protection either, after a cursory review of the edit history. 2600:1700:D281:27D0:A488:2795:3925:B70B (talk) 05:21, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

  SPA says what? -- Scjessey (talk) 11:40, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

  Huh. You didn't provide the amount of time that had elapsed. That's odd. I thought for sure you would know the answer. Either way, you get the point. 2600:1700:D281:27D0:A488:2795:3925:B70B (talk) 14:32, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

  14 September 2018 (no time listed) Accusation published in The New Yorker. [36]

  18:57, 14 September 2018 Accusation added to Brett Kavanaugh page.[37]

  If anyone can figure out the exact time the New Yorker published, please post it. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:36, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

  The New Yorker allegation was reported by AP, picked up by the Guardian(19:14 BST),[38] CNBC (11:50 AM EST)[39] the New York Times,[40] Vox,[11:60am EDT)[41] BBC[42], CNN (Updated 4:10 PM ET,[43] USA Today (1:45 pm ET)[44] - and that's just the first page of a google search for Sept. 14.[45] The sexual assualt allegations were added to Kavanaugh's page at 18:47 UTC (2:47 pm EDT),[46] So the story was not added to the Wikipedia article until it had been widely reported in major media. I would have objected to including the story had it not been reported in major media. TFD (talk) 18:19, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

  So in other words, the same day. We've had mainstream sources for two weeks (noted near the end of the discussion section above if you need some examples), and yet sourcing is still being brought up as a potential obstacle to inclusion. I understand that updating the source list at the beginning of the RfC isn't ideal, but perhaps we need to create a new "Source" section below, where a complete list of the most significant can be compiled for all to see at quick glance. Such a list should exclude tabloid and questionable sources, of which too many have snuck into this discussion so far. --GoneIn60 (talk) 19:42, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

  GoneIn60, the difference is that the Biden allegations were virtually ignored by mainstream media although they reported the Kavanaugh ones the same day. An editor was trying to show that Wikipedia editors had added the information to the Kavanaugh article before it hit mainstream news (i.e., when it had only appeared in the New Yorker.) In fact it had already been covered by them. My point was that if it had been ingnoreded by ABC, CBS, CNN, NBC/MSNBC, the New York Times, USAToday, the Washington Post and most other legacy media, I would not have supported inclusion. I have in fact made the same arguments in articles about Donald Trump, Tulsi Gabbard, Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren and many other subjects. TFD (talk) 20:46, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

  • The arguments presented bring up a major dispute in the interpretation of policy. Can something that has been covered in alternative media but has virtually no coverage in mainline media be considered to have received substantial coverage in the body of sources? In the past this has not been a major problem because generally the coverage has come from conservative sources, but this story has been covered in alternative progressive media as well. So for example we would not have added to Obama's article accusations that he was a socialist, not an American citizen, Muslim terrorist until mainstream media had paid attention to them and we had informed opinion about their credibility. So it might be helpful to get a clarification of how weight applies to this type of situation first. TFD (talk) 19:54, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
  • I'm still monitoring this page, and I'm willing to close it or help close it when the time comes. I think a team close would be a good idea, but it doesn't look like there's a clear consensus yet so I would prefer to let the RfC run longer, especially given the points TFD brings up about wider policy considerations. — Wug·a·po·des​ 20:32, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
  • I would support a team close with non-involved, experienced admins, known to be apolitical and ideally from outside the U.S. I was thinking of people such as Thryduulf, who served on ArbCom. This is highly contentious, and I think not a good fit for newer admins (but what do I know?).

  TFD includes a misstatement in his assessment above. "virtually no coverage in mainline media" is provably false. It would be more accurate to say that about U.S. media, specifically. (But it's already on Fox cable news.) petrarchan47คุก 21:16, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

  The word "virtually" means "almost entirely: NEARLY" (Merrian-Webster).[47] While Fox covered the story, the other four major networks - ABC, CBS, CNN, NBC/MSNBC - did not. At issue is whether something that appears only in Fox could be said to be covered in the body of cable news coverage. That's important because there are lots of stories that are only covered in Fox News. I would like to preemptively state that this is not an issue of reliability, but of weight. Fox News is a reliable source, per Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources. 03:32, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

  So, only U.S. media counts? Is it possible in your view for these outlets to be partisan? I think consensus holds that Fox supports Republicans, but I see very little acknowledgement on this TP that the "other four major networks" have any bias whatsoever. I also see no acknowledgement that, as RS has put forth, COVID19 coverage is to blame (whilst none of them suggest the story is unworthy of coverage in any way). So, during the wall-to-wall coverage of the virus, "weight" is less applicable. petrarchan47คุก 22:32, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

• I'm happy to be part of team closing this, but only when it is ready for closure and I see no immediately obvious reason to close it early. I wont be paying close attention to this page though, so please ping me again at the time if you still want my input. Thryduulf (talk) 21:43, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

  This is most appreciated. I don't believe there is any consensus for closing it now; I understood this section to be focused on who and how it would be closed. The argument that it's getting too long or involved, and should be closed for that reason, is not upheld by policy AFAIK. 22:56, 9 April 2020 (UTC) Upon re-read, OP is not suggesting we close early, only that this requires a team. Struck. petrarchan47คุก 23:05, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Is that a joke? There has been overwhelming consensus to include the allegations for roughly a week. No team is necessary. One admin can and should close this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1012:B142:18D3:D120:889F:B8EC:10F4 (talk) 21:47, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm ok with closing it now and having a current/prior Arb close it. The trust level doesn't get any higher than ArbCom...even if/when I don't agree with them all of the time. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 22:09, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose Snow Close. By my count, the RfC is currently 47 "Yes", 19 "No" or "Not Yet". The RfC has been open for 10 days, and there were 17 comments in the last 24 hours. I say wait until at least 14 days and fewer than 3 comments in the previous 24 hours. I Support Admin Closure, preferably more than one admin, simply because this is so likely to be appealed otherwise. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:24, 10 April 2020 (UTC) Changed per [48] --Guy Macon (talk) 15:59, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

  Now at 50 "Yes", 21 "No" or "Not Yet". --Guy Macon (talk) 16:01, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

  @Guy Macon: This is irrelevant. With so few mainstream reliable sources to rely on and the current reliance of poor quality sources and opinion pieces, the weight of argument is more than enough to trump the weight of numbers. Coupled with the off-site canvassing on anti-Biden forums, we need WAY more time for this to play out. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:31, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

  Scjessey, I agree with you on the strength of numbers vs strength of argument. For me, I have not seen any definition for "mainstream" in any WP Policy or Guideline. Are you aware of any definition or precedent that? To me this just seems that many of the No voters are cherry picking what RS sources they want to consider. As a Biden supporter I would be happy to change my vote to No if this was covered somehow when the policy was defined (or later).--Davemoth (talk) 21:27, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

  @Davemoth: It's subjective. I've looked at all the sources listed here, and three things bother me:

  1. None of the "regular" US reliable sources are included. For example, MSNBC/NBC, CBS, ABC, NPR, NYT, LAT, Chronicle, Trib et al. I don't buy this bullshit that they are focused on the virus, because we are talking about the presumptive nominee for the presidency.
  2. The sources we do have a mostly of low quality, and for a variety of reasons. They are largely opinion pieces, or stories written by pro-Trump or pro-Sanders people, or simply repeat what was originally run (like news aggregators), or are only writing about it because it sounds sensationalist. Many editors here are talking up these sources as if they are high quality, but they just aren't.
  3. The convention on BLPs (and no, it is not written into any policy I'm aware of) is for controversial content to only be included if it is well sourced in a preponderance of reliable sources, and yet this is absolutely not the case. You'd expect to see it in several of the sources I listed as examples in my first point.

  I'm also deeply bothered by the off-site canvassing, which is entirely anti-Biden, so is completely skewing the RfC in favor of inclusion. This whole thing stinks, frankly. -- Scjessey (talk) 00:16, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

  For the nth time, RfC's aren't simple vote tallies. There's nothing to "skew." If the closing admin finds that Tara Reade's heartbreaking story is printed in reliable sources, which it is, then that admin will unlock the page and allow us to update the article. If not, then the RfC is closed and Tara Reade's story gets swept under the rug. This idea that "Oh well they're talking about Wikipedia on some other website, so we should take that into account" just rings hollow. These continued attempts to influence closing admins by muddying the water with "canvassing" allegations, well-founded or not, are disruptive. 2600:1700:D281:27D0:A488:2795:3925:B70B (talk) 00:38, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

  I'm an experienced closer. You are definitely wrong - it is absolutely appropriate to raise concerns and evidence of canvassing for the closer's attention. WP:CANVASSING is one of Wikipedia's official WP:Policies and guidelines. One memorable RFC I closed had a vote tally of 10 vs 20. Almost all of the 20 votes had been canvassed, and I found a clear and overwhelming consensus in favor of the 10. The fact that this RFC was canvassed in favor of including the content actually makes it more likely for the content to be excluded. If the degree and effect of canvassing is unclear the closer may have to issue a No Consensus result. That would exclude the content, unless and until non-corrupted discussion reached a consensus to include. Alsee (talk) 13:18, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose close for now. Scjessey makes a good point. Given the issues with off-site linking, the relatively short duration (even if it has attracted a lot of attention) and the lack of a clear consensus, I'd propose waiting a few more days to give other experienced editors the opportunity to weigh in. It's still clearly attracting a lot of attention—12 new responses in the last 24 hours alone—there's absolutely no harm in letting it ride. Domeditrix (talk) 11:57, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose early close - This is still an active thread with additional editors continuing to arrive. It should run at least a month and then let's see whether the new particpation has run its course. I don't think it's helpful to post vote numbers as if this were going to be the measure of consensus. There are an awful lot of SPA's, collinear opinions ("yes per XYZ") and arguments against policy. Vote counts are irrelevant. SPECIFICO talk 16:22, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose close - I agree with the above, there is no rush to close this RfC. I say let it run the full course of a month as normal (so 20 more days should be sufficient) willydrach^talk 17:02, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Support Early Close Now that this has been by the New York Times, The Washington Post, NBC & AP I see no reason to keep this RfC open. This has been covered by numerous RS and there is no reason to debate this any further, as the reliability of previous sources was a concern with including this piece earlier. willydrach^talk 20:41, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose close - Should run for 30 days. We don't snow close BLP stuff, especially given the issues of canvassing (a notably non-zero number of !votes from IPs or from accounts with very few edits and/or making their first edit for a significant time). Black Kite (talk) 18:51, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
• Support Team Close - More Yes or No votes are not changing the strength of the arguments. And support it soon. The policy is basically boiled down to "multiple mainstream sources" need to have reported on the allegations. As far as I can tell, this is not defined in any WP Policy or Guideline. It doesn't matter if the RfC has votes that are even, 2-1, 3-1, or 4-1 in favor of inclusion because it is not a popularity contest. Instead it is a question of the strength of the arguments. The question for the closing team comes down to: Do sources (that per WP:RSP have consensus as Generally Reliable for American Politics and/or BLP) such as Vox, The Intercept, etc. count as mainstream sources? If the answer is No, then the closing team should define what sources count so that if we get multiple of those something should be included.--Davemoth (talk) 19:57, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose, but now there is a criminal complaint which changes the tenor of the issue - The lady has filed a formal criminal complaint with the DC police, so including the item should be proforma now. There's greater coverage now of this issue. ToeFungii (talk) 08:04, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

  You are incorrect. I just checked and all of the sources for that are unreliable; Daily Caller, Daily Mail, Sun, WND., etc. Per WP:V and WP:RS You need to wait until you see it in a reliable source like The Guardian, The Intercept, The Los Angeles Times, etc. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:56, 11 April 2020 (UTC) Changed per [49] --Guy Macon (talk) 16:01, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

• Comment, now that The New York Times has reported on Tara Reade, I think we have consensus to include. Kolya Butternut (talk) 10:41, 12 April 2020 (UTC) Now consensus is clear; Support. The only objection was that there may be an objection. There hasn't been one today, and all objections in the !votes above have been addressed. Kolya Butternut (talk) 02:29, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. I have changed my vote from “Not now” to “Yes” now that this story is on the front page of The New York Times. I make a motion to close this RFC, include the allegation in the article, and to reduce the protection level for this page. Samboy (talk) 12:03, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

• Support early closure. The story is now in The New York Times, so it has become notable enough to include in Biden’s biography. Like other reporting of the story, The New York Times is very skeptical of the claim: None of the other women who made claims of inappropriate touching said that Biden committed sexual assault against them; none of Reade’s then co-workers recall anything even hinting at sexual abuse by Biden; and co-workers who Reade claimed to talk to about her discomfort (if not the alledged assault) do not even remember Ms. Reade. But this is not a discussion of how to describe the allegation; this is merely a discussion about whether to include it at all; with it being in The New York Times, the answer is an unqualified “yes”. Samboy (talk) 12:13, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
  • There is no consensus to do anything. The NYT actually did the most investigation to date into Reade's  allegation. The Times concluded:

The Times began reporting on her account and seeking corroboration through interviews, documents and other sources. The Times interviewed Ms. Reade on multiple days over hours, as well as those she told about Mr. Biden’s behavior and other friends. The Times has also interviewed lawyers who spoke to Ms. Reade about her allegation; nearly two dozen people who worked with Mr. Biden during the early 1990s, including many who worked with Ms. Reade; and the other seven women who criticized Mr. Biden last year, to discuss their experiences with him. No other allegation about sexual assault surfaced in the course of reporting, nor did any former Biden staff members corroborate any details of Ms. Reade’s allegation. The Times found no pattern of sexual misconduct by Mr. Biden, beyond the hugs, kisses and touching that women previously said made them uncomfortable.

The discrepancies and contradictions in her story have been reported not only by NYT but Fox, Vox, etc. I have no doubt there will be more reporting forthcoming on this story and we should wait to see what comes out before this is closed.  CBS527^Talk 13:51, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

You have "no doubt" that more reporting is forthcoming but believe "we should wait". This is interesting. This RfC is simply about mentioning the allegation, not necessarily digging into its details and validity. Wikipedia is not an investigative wing of journalism. To wait further ignores the RfC's purpose and all the "No" and "Not yet" votes above that are based on the absence of an NYT or LAT mention, which we clearly have now. The SNOW will surely become an AVALANCHE. Let's not complicate it or move the goal posts. --GoneIn60 (talk) 14:24, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

• We don't wait for the conclusion of an investigation to report on a case; the NYT is not doing the investigation, it would be done by the D.C. Police. petrarchan47คุก 18:52, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

• Support early closure: The unofficial newspaper of record has reported on it; notability is now clearly established, regardless of the veracity of the allegations at hand. As Samboy correctly notes: 'this is not a discussion of how to describe the allegation; this is merely a discussion about whether to include it at all; with it being in The New York Times, the answer is an unqualified “yes”.' I concur. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 14:55, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Noting that the New York Times was not necessary for inclusion, and it concerns me that it would even be considered so. They are simply another news source per WP:NEWSORG which is what helps determine what gets included in WP. There are plenty of 3rd party RS cited above that have published the allegation; however, I agree that it's time to close this RfC and has been for a while now. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 15:35, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

100% agree with Atsme, The New York Times was not necessary for inclusion, and it concerns that it would even be considered so. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 16:55, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

I concur. Kolya Butternut (talk) 17:41, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

It’s not a question of the NYT per se as much as it’s a question of it being reported in tier-one media sources. I would had done the same thing if it was in The Wall Street Journal, in The Washington Post, or even on the front page of CNN. The fact that a writer for the notorious Chapo Trap house (NYT link) as well as Donald Trump don’t like the NYT means they are doing something right. Samboy (talk) 19:06, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

It's unsettling to watch the NYT hold so much sway over this encyclopedia. They waited 2.5 weeks to report on this story and should be lambasted, not honored with the power to determine when we are allowed to mention it. As I stated in my !Vote, the NYT was caught lying in a way that exonerated Bill Clinton and smeared the accuser during the Epstein reporting. Worse, it did not correct the piece after alerted by Newslinger. Their Reade coverage has problems too. They've already whitewashed it. Note the caveat "beyond" has been removed altogether:

This No other allegation about sexual assault surfaced in the course of reporting, nor did any former Biden staff members corroborate any details of Ms. Reade’s allegation. The Times found no pattern of sexual misconduct by Mr. Biden, beyond the hugs, kisses and touching that women previously said made them uncomfortable.*

Now reads No other allegation about sexual assault surfaced in the course of reporting, nor did any former Biden staff members corroborate any details of Ms. Reade’s allegation. The Times found no pattern of sexual misconduct by Mr. Biden.*

They also falsely claim no former staff members corroborate any part of Reade's story, yet they also say (quoting Ryan Grim), "Tara Reade said that in retaliation for her complaint, she was moved off of managing interns. The Times found the interns, and they confirmed she suddenly stopped overseeing them". petrarchan47คุก 18:52, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

No original research please WP:NOTAFORUM Excuse me, but The New York Times is more reliable than the thoughts of random Wikipedia editors. There are a lot of possible reasons why they decided to reassign Reade 27 years ago. Samboy (talk) 19:12, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

• Comment It can be closed at any time as long as enough comment has been received that consensus is reached, or until it is apparent it won't be per Wikipedia:Requests for comment#Duration. The 30 days limit is just when Legobot assumes the discussion has been forgotten. No need to wait for that. --Pudeo (talk) 15:41, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose early closure - People are still commenting and a new source has been cited. We can wait until the discussion becomes idle for at least a few days, or 30 days as per standard practice. - MrX 🖋 15:58, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
• Support early closure - by my count, we have a 3 to 1 ratio of Yes votes. Wikipedia is not a democracy, however we seem to have a strong consensus that this information should be included. People opposed to inclusion keep repeating the same argument about how major sources haven't mentioned this. But they have (NYT being a notable example), so this point is moot. It is unclear what would satisfy such people, and hence it's slowly becoming a situation that's getting close to being WP:CENSOR, which is a bad look. BeŻet (talk) 17:02, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

  Absolutely not. The story in the NYT appears to strongly suggest Ms. Reade's allegation is likely false, in which case adding this to the article would be unfair to Joe Biden in that it would unreasonably associate him with an assault that likely didn't happen. It's stunning that editors here are claiming the NYT story somehow vindicates a disturbing and relentless push to shove this material into the article. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:20, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

  We are not stating whether the assault happened, but whether the accusation has happened. I don't care what NYT think about it, of course they will be defending Biden. It's stunning that a minority of editors here wants to censor this information. BeŻet (talk) 12:01, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

We are simply stating the the allegation was made, a report was filed, and Biden's team responded. petrarchan47คุก 18:58, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Support early closure per BeŻet. The fact that the NYT has now dedicated an article to the controversy only reinforces that it should be mentioned with due weight in the article. If they say the allegations are false, that should be the focus of the final prose. We should also acknowledge that most of the votes against including Reade's allegation were based on arguments that outlets like the NYT had yet to report on it. UpdateNerd (talk) 18:23, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

• Support close our job isn't to adjudicate the case but to report. Many RS have reported on the case and it's just our job to report if the RS reports it, with Biden's denial. As time goes on, if there is more information, we can include it. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 18:29, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
• Support close Given that most "no" votes have been satisfied as per above. petrarchan47คุก 18:58, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
• Comment regarding the new NYT piece. I agree that it's not some seismic event that two NYT employees, Lisa Lerer and Sydney Ember, decided to publish an article on their WordPress website. Carlos Slim doesn't own Wikipedia, and he shouldn't get to dictate what's written here and what's not. I appreciate that some of those who voted against inclusion are now changing their votes, but "my favorite website/TV station is now talking about it" is probably the worst possible reason. What's more, the main purpose of the NYT article is to try to discredit Reade and cover for Biden. Angry liberals also have immense sway over what is or isn't said in their articles - they've already gotten them to shut up about Biden's unwanted "hugs, kissing, and touching"[50], and this isn't the first time that The Times changed their story at the behest of Twitter: [51], [52]. It's very dangerous to allow one media corporation have such an immense control over Wikipedia, especially when the corporation is only trusted by one political party and ideological persuasion. 2600:1700:D281:27D0:2C42:DCA4:F0C6:C463 (talk) 20:14, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Oh yes, this is a massive cover-up on the part of the corporate leftist media elite. I mean, you did cite Mediaite, so I guess we're done here. - MrX 🖋 20:47, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

No, I would never insinuate that the media would try to influence politics with their coverage. I think we can all agree that media companies are our friends, and their employees are objective, non-partisan, and just want to give us the facts. Here's the link to a few of New York Times' own tweets, since you don't trust the ferociously left-wing Mediaite website: [53][54]. 2600:1700:D281:27D0:D976:4355:8684:E49A (talk) 20:53, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

• Support early closure – The New York Times article means that the dam has broken on this story. There is no concern of undue weight anymore. There is no reason to wait longer. Consensus is clear. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 00:37, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
• Support early closure not because I think that Wikipedia has a policy to not include material if the NYT doesn't cover it, but because that's the essence of many of the no !votes which pretty much made that exact argument. What I don't see is any chance that a couple of thousand more words will change the result. So, do we have a team of uninvolved and experienced closers ready to evaluate the consensus? The closing comments should be carefully crafted, because there are certain to be bitter complaints no matter which way it goes.   :(   -Guy Macon (talk) 01:50, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
• It's on the front page of the New York Times and the Washington Post, which settles it. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 05:38, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

  I kind of agree with this now, although the proposed text is unacceptable. Better coverage in higher quality sources with proper (rather than sensationalist) reporting has rather exceeded the need for the RfC now. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:58, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

• Comment - It's even on MSNBC now. BeŻet (talk) 16:00, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
• Support Its everywhere now, so we better get our ass going. Now, we're talking about early closure, but do we have some closers? Perhaps put a note on WP:AN to ask for a quick team close? Putting it on the closure request board is not gonna be fast enough, things go there to die. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 20:02, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

• Even NBC news!. Wikipedia should not whitewash or censor these reports.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 21:49, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

• I have requested admin attention at the AN noticeboard. Mr Ernie (talk) 20:16, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
• RfC is irrelevant This needs closure by the first Admin that sees it. NYT and WaPo have published this, there are ZERO concerns of DUE that can be raised. At this point we are running headlong into WP:NOTCENSORED being the argument for inclusion. We don't want to appear politically biased and I fear that any further delay on reporting this will make us appear so. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)}_{(click me!)} 00:02, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Full protection

I have requested temporary full page protection with the contentious material excluded until the RfC is concluded. We cannot have an edit war over an alleged sexual assault allegation. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:38, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

I have fully protected the page until this matter is resolved in order to enforce the policy on biographies of living people. Because the page was semi-protected indefinitely, I didn't want the 30 days to expire and then the page have no protection which is why the full protection is indefinite. Please ping me when this RfC is over and I will lower protection back to semi protection. Editors who wish to continue making changes unrelated to this RfC may make an edit request using {{FPER}} and an administrator will review it. — Wug·a·po·des​ 01:26, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

I do not see evidence this was warranted. I see no edit war. The talk page is peaceful. When sections were removed recently without consensus, we discussed it. No one tried to add them back. The version presently locked in place is not the consensed version. It was never discussed at all, and ignores the work of the community. Why should editors spend hours working on this talk page only to have all their work erased in a drive-by edit, and then locked for no reason? Please restore the previous version, and kindly explain why it is locked. petrarchan47คุก 10:55, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Wugapodes, I agree full protection is overkill. The allegation has proper sources, so it isn’t really a BLP concern at this point, but more of DUE. Mr Ernie (talk) 11:58, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

There is no hurry to include the content here. There are real issues with the allegations, and they have not been thoroughly investigated at this time. We can with 30 days—or longer—for there to be more coverage of this allegation before making edits can can potentially violate BLP. Samboy (talk) 12:14, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Full protection was needed because editors were appearing out of nowhere to revert the material back into the article, without regard to the RfC and related talk page discussions in which multiple editors pointed out that the material is mostly being carried by low quality sources. When protecting a page because of a content dispute, administrators have a duty to avoid protecting a version that contains policy-violating content, such as vandalism, copyright violations, defamation, or poor-quality coverage of living people. - MrX 🖋 12:19, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

It's not that much damage if a sourced allegation is inserted and reverted a few times before a stable consensus emerges. That type of stuff happens all the time as part of the normal editing process. Biden's running for president and editors ought to be able to freely update this page as we get closer to the election. Mr Ernie (talk) 12:57, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Nonsense. We had a legitimate edit warring concern, where the same VIOLATING material was being added and removed multiple times per day. This was the best solution, and editing in other areas can continue via WP:EREQ with little difficulty. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:11, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

I endorse the adding of full protection. Because the material was being edit warred in and out, this is a classic case of an article that needed it. I also endorse keeping the full protection in place until the RfC is resolved, since edit warring was going on despite the presence of an active RfC -- MelanieN (talk) 19:02, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

An edit war is more than a series of reverts in quick succession, and I protected because this page has been undergoing a slow-moving edit war for multiple days prior to and during this RFC. Starting at an arbitrary point in the history:

• Petrarchan47 adds content related to allegations 26 March c. 22:30
• MrX reverts those additions 26 March 00:55
• Maccaheartney adds content related to allegations 28 March c. 01:07
• YouCanDoBetter adds additional content 28 March 01:09
• SPECIFICO reverts the previous two additions 28 March 01:40
• Bobtinin adds content related to allegations 28 March 19:09
• The content is reworked for about 12 hours in what looks to me like normal editorial processes
• Mr Ernie and Scjessey remove a chunk of that content 29 March c. 13:00
• Volunteer Marek removes the remaining content 30 March 05:15
• This RfC is started on 30 March at 13:36
• Quidster4040 restores content removed by Marek 30 March 17:09
• Scjessey reverts the addition 30 March 17:33
• Wugapodes fully protects the page 31 March 01:22

Because this article is a BLP, it is subject to discretionary sanctions which allow any uninvolved administrator to "impose on any page or set of pages relating to the area of conflict page protection, [...] prohibitions on the addition or removal of certain content (except when consensus for the edit exists), or any other reasonable measure that the enforcing administrator believes is necessary and proportionate for the smooth running of the project." While I considered simply prohibiting addition of the content without consensus, I'm not interested in playing whack-a-mole on a highly viewed BLP of a US presidential candidate (see principle 1 of the BLP arbitration case). The alternative is page protection, and since the page was already semi protected and multiple editors engaged in the dispute are extended confirmed, full protection is the only effective protection level. Immediately after this page was protected, I logged it as an arbitration enforcement action. It can be appealed as such at arbitration enforcement or the administrator's noticeboard. (edit conflict) — Wug·a·po·des​ 19:50, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for explaining that. It was the correct thing to do. TFD (talk) 21:13, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm afraid I just don't see an edit war. It looks like normal editing, with the exception of the removal of the entire section we had worked and agreed on through good faith efforts on the TP. The removal of consensed material without so much as a note on TP was improper, starting an RfC that locks the section for 30 days without discussing the idea first on the TP was also improper. Locking a non-consensed (or even discussed) version is akin to telling editors that gaining consensus and presenting arguments on the TP to determine content, as we are asked to do, is not actually how things work around here. "We had a legitimate edit warring concern" means that we didn't actually have any war, only a concern, which is not an emergency. petrarchan47คุก 01:14, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Let it go, Petrarchan. Maybe you "don't see an edit war" but that call is not up to you. It is up to an administrator, someone who knows an edit war when they see one and has been entrusted with the power to act on it. I am also an administrator, although I usually function at this page as a regular editor, and I also know an edit war when I see one. Wugapodes did the right thing. If you want to challenge it, there are other boards designed for that kind of thing, but arguing about the full protection at this page is a waste of bytes. -- MelanieN (talk) 03:24, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

It's a dozen or so edits across 5 days. That's hardly disruptive - now the page is entirely locked. That is not normal. Mr Ernie (talk) 07:46, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Mr. Ernie, That is not normal. Ernie, you are not in the Twilight Zone. It's been explained in detail above. BTW, do you think page restrictions do not apply to the article talk page? If they do, you just violated both page restrictions, 1RR and the 24-hour BRD sanction, with your recent edits. SPECIFICO talk 17:48, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Has nothing to do with page protection. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:09, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The votes are 33 Yes and 16 No. Has consensus been reached yet? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1012:B113:AB8A:7C0B:CE86:6AB4:157 (talk) 18:27, 7 April 2020 (UTC) Consensus is based on more than simply tallying votes. It requires a thorough assessment of the arguments on both sides. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:32, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

High school sit-in

Within the section concerning Biden's early life there is a sentence asserting that Biden participated in a sit-in at a Wilmington theater in the years of his education at Archmere Academy:

Biden attended the Archmere Academy in Claymont,[7]:27, 32 where he was a standout halfback and wide receiver on the high school football team; he helped lead a perennially losing team to an undefeated season in his senior year.[15][18] He played on the baseball team as well.[15] During these years, he participated in an anti-segregation sit-in at a Wilmington theater.[19] Academically, he was a poor student but was considered a natural leader among the students and elected class president during his junior and senior years.[7]:40–41[20]:99 He graduated in 1961.[7]:40–41

Wikipedia's statement is sourced to the Current Biography Yearbook 1987. Biden initially claimed to have been an activist in the civil rights movement while running for the Democratic nomination around that time, but in September 1987 admitted he was not an activist: "I was not an activist. I worked at an all-black swimming pool in the east side of Wilmington, Delaware. I was involved in what they were thinking, what they were feeling. I was involved, but I was not out marching. I was not down in Selma, I was not anywhere else. I was a suburbanite kid who got a dose of exposure to what was happening to black Americans in my own city." (Robert Mackey, The Intercept: "Ahead of South Carolina Vote, Joe Biden Faces Questions Over Claims of Civil Rights Activism")

In 2019 Biden again claimed to have taken some part in desegregation protests in Delaware. His campaign stated he was "proud that he protested in favor of desegregating the Rialto [theater] in 1962." The NY Times did a fact check, again casting doubt on Biden's claims of having been in the civil rights movement, noting he had previously "conceded that 'I was not an activist.'" On the other hand, The NY Times stated that Biden's story about protesting theater segregation in Wilmington was backed by his friend Richard "Mouse" Smith, a NAACP activist who also claimed to have taken part alongside Biden. (Linda Qiu, NY Times: Fact Checking Joe Biden...") However, in an interview with the Washington Post Smith said that the event had occurred in 1965. (WaPo interview)

The Intercept reviewed these claims and found that "In fact, the picketing of the segregated Rialto theater took place more than two years earlier, lasting from November 1962 until May 1, 1963, when the theater owner relented and agreed to admit black patrons." (Robert Mackey, The Intercept: "Ahead of South Carolina Vote, Joe Biden Faces Questions Over Claims of Civil Rights Activism")

As The Intercept notes at one point he also claimed to have taken part in desegregating a second theater -- the Queen theater in Wilmington -- which had been desegregated 11 years earlier according to its historian. Neither alleged protest, at the Rialto or at the Queen, is mentioned in Biden's biographies. They also don't mention that Biden was involved in any activism in high school.

In sum, the Wikipedia article's wording suggests that Biden took part in a Wilmington theater sit-in as a high school student at the Archmere Academy. As The NY Times and The Intercept note, Biden has a history of questionable claims regarding the civil rights movement. The only person to ever corroborate Biden's allegation that he took part in a desegregation protest against a theater in Wilmington, Richard Smith, said he met Biden in 1962, when Biden was a student at the University of Delaware. Smith stated that he and Biden took part in the protest in 1965. The protest actually occurred in 1962-1963, when Biden was at the University of Delaware and Smith was about 13 years old.

I propose we remove the sentence, since, as The Intercept notes, Biden's biographies say nothing about being involved in desegregating anything, especially during high school. (Note comments by Shaun King) Zloyvolsheb (talk) 21:48, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

I agree. I would also mention that the Current Biography Yearbook relies in part on the subjects themselves for their information. Since Biden has fabricated considerable amounts of his biography (in fairness he is not the only candidate to do so), I would remove the Yearbook as a source and delete any other information that cannot be reliably sourced. TFD (talk) 22:55, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

I also agree. This sounds like a reasonable change given where this information comes from. BeŻet (talk) 18:05, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

The issue is not whether we as editors believe that the subject of a biographical article is credible or believe a specific factual claim included in a BLP. The issue is whether the fact presented in the article is supported by appropriate reliable sources. Biden's claim about having participated in two anti-segregation protests, and the attestation of the retired NAACP official who recalls him attending an anti-segregation protest at the Rialto, are covered in multiple, major media sources. The claim of the Intercept article cited above, "Although King was unable to produce conclusive proof that Biden did not protest outside the movie theater, he highlighted obvious contradictions and errors in the former vice president’s at times confusing account of his activities in the 1960s which leave plenty of room for critics inclined to disbelieve him.", is not the same as repudiation. Arllaw (talk) 19:59, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Arllaw, thanks for weighing in. Which reliable sources, specifically, describe Biden as having participated in a sit-in while he was a student at Archmere Academy, as stated in Wikipedia's own voice in this article? So far the only source found to support that claim has been the Current Biography Yearbook 1987. This is a dubious source because Biden backtracked on his claims during his campaign for the 1988 Democratic nomination. This is indeed not a matter of my beliefs, but a question of reliable sources. It's possible that Biden did at one point participate in a desegregation protest of some sort (I actually can imagine that), but there is no reliable source I am aware of. (If a "major media source" did report that Biden claimed to have participated in a sit-in while in high school, we would have to write "Biden claimed to have..." as that would still be a claim made by Biden, only attributed to him by someone else.) Have you located any good sources? Zloyvolsheb (talk) 21:09, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

I have found mention in a variety of major news articles, including the New York Times, that Biden participated in a couple of anti-segregation protests in his youth. But the issue here does not appear to be that those sources don't exist, but that some editors don't believe that the events described in the articles occurred as described. If you can demonstrate that Biden says that he never participated in any such protests, that's the source that would be helpful to resolve this question, not innuendo based upon other claims Biden has made. Arllaw (talk) 06:29, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Arllaw, could you actually list here some of the "variety of major news articles" you are saying you have found, so I can take a look at them? Given that Biden himself conceded that he was not an activist, I am skeptical you have those sources. Again... if a source reported that Biden claimed to have participated in X, we would have to write "Biden claimed to have..." as that would still be a claim made by Biden, only attributed to him by someone else. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 15:49, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

I would like to point out that Zloyvolsheb has helpfully provided sources above that Biden protested the cinema while he was in high school and in 1962 (when the protests occurred). Since Biden finished high school in 1961, at least one of these facts is false. REDFLAG and WP:BALASP apply. It's an extraordinary claim that requires better sources and it's not significant enough to include. TFD (talk) 22:43, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

It's certainly possible that Biden also did some kind of "sit-in" while in high school, say in 1960, before the actual documented protests (pickets) in 1962-1963, sure. But there's no source except the problematic Current Biography Yearbook 1987. Biden may have verbally claimed he was involved in desegregation during high school, in college, that he finished in the top half of his law class, that he was arrested in South Africa trying to see Nelson Mandela on Robben Island, but we clearly need to find reliable sources before asserting any such statement in our own voice. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 23:50, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

The retired NAACP official who describes being present with Biden at the Rialto protest indicated that the date discrepancy was a product of trying to recall events from fifty years before. That's right in The Intercept article that is being presented as a basis for removing the claim from the article. It is not the job of editors here to investigate claims that we don't believe are credible and change articles based upon our independent research. If some reliable sources state that an event occurred and some suggest that it did not, it is appropriate to present both sides rather than choosing sides. Arllaw (talk) 06:29, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

As per WP:RS and WP:SECONDARY, the retired NAACP official is not a reliable secondary source, so we don't care what he says, only what reliable secondary sources tell us. It's up to the people who write secondary reliable sources to determine if Richard Smith is credible. It's not up to Arllaw or Zloyvolsheb. You claim that you have media sources confirming Biden took part in desegregation. Can you list the sources? Any links, maybe? Article titles to type into Google? Zloyvolsheb (talk) 16:02, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

If there is confusion about the dates, we can't say that Biden did this when he was in high school. TFD (talk) 17:27, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

The NAACP official is quoted in the article that is ostensibly the basis for making this change, even though that article asserts that Biden's youthful participation in desegregation protests has not been disproved. So we have media coverage of Biden's claims, confirmation of the claims from Biden's campaign, a corroborating witness, and a later statement from the witness stating that the controversy over the date of a specific protest may be an error of his memory fifty years after-the-fact. If it is the case that some people are intent upon performing independent research, disregarding what the sources they offer in support of their position say, and removing material that is in fact supported by reliable sources, that's not a battle I'm interested in waging against them -- but that's not the proper role of a Wikipedia editor.Arllaw (talk) 18:03, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

No, the NAACP official is not the basis for the proposed change. The basis is the insufficiency of reliable sources for the sit-in claim in the article as it is written now. I am well aware of the statements by Biden, his campaign, and his friend Richard "Mouse" Smith, the NAACP official. That's why I included them as background for other editors at the beginning of this discussion. Notably, the reporters do not repeat these claims themselves, except as reports of Biden's statements. Now, let's take a look at the sentence I proposed removing. It states, in Wikipedia's voice, that Biden took part in a sit-in during his time as a student at Archmere Academy. We know Biden graduated from Archmere Academy in 1961, so any of Biden's or his campaign's or his friend Smith's claims about participation after 1961 are irrelevant to the change I have proposed.

As per The Intercept, Biden's campaign now states he took part in desegregating one theater. (He previously claimed it was at least two.) The Biden campaign stated he took part in desegregating the Rialto Theater in 1962. As The Intercept states, Richard "Mouse" Smith met Biden in 1962, when Biden took a job at the swimming pool. Biden graduated from Archmere Academy in 1961. The Joe Biden Wikipedia article states he took part in a sit-in during high school. So the article effectively states he participated in a theater sit-in before 1962, but his campaign claims he took part in "protesting" against one theater in 1962. You may want to include Biden's other claims (we can agree to disagree on that), but do you agree that the sentence about a sit-in during Biden's time at Archmere Academy has insufficient sourcing for inclusion? Would you agree to removing this specific sentence? Zloyvolsheb (talk) 19:02, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

This is the same thing as the sexual assault allegations. We don't know how credible either story is, because they have not received scrutiny. REDFLAG and NEWSORG both tell us to ignore them, but instead we throw out the policy and replace it with whatever individual editors find important. The problem is that we all have different views of the world and therefore could never agree on what is important. TFD (talk) 23:17, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

The Four Deuces, these are both allegations that can be discussed as allegations. The difference is that Tara Reade's allegation and Biden's denial of it can be discussed in the space of 1, or maybe 2-3 sentences. The allegation of Biden's participation in desegregation protests, in light of the contradictions as, for example, noted in The Intercept, in addition to his own public backtracking from the claim of having been a civil rights activist in 1987, his omission of it in his autobiography, etc. would require much more space to explain objectively. We could do that, but it would overwhelm the article, so it's a WP:DUE WP:BALASP issue (as you noted). Zloyvolsheb (talk) 00:25, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

TFD, no one has suggested we include any mention of whether the sexual allegations are credible, and certainly Blasey Ford's hadn't received scrutiny when we added her allegation either. Are you in doubt that the allegation was made, or that Biden responded to it, or both? Because that is all we need sourcing for, since we are simply stating these two things occurred using ample, high quality RS. WP:NEWSORG is satisfied: News reporting from well-established news outlets is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact.*, * petrarchan47คุก 00:56, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

When allegations are mentioned there is always the implication that they have some credibility, otherwise one would not mention them. Certainly the people who reported these comments believe they have some credibility. Only a gossip repeats stories about people when they have no idea how credible they are. BTW Biden has not denied the allegations. Politicians don't deny allegations against them that have not been reported in major media. And the Brett Kavanaugh accusations did receive scrutiny. Reporters in all major media read them and decided they were credible enough to publish. TFD (talk) 02:42, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

OK, but the allegation you're coming back to has been reported in some major media. Biden's campaign denied it. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 05:09, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Balancing aspects says, "An article should not give undue weight to minor aspects of its subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news."

What that means is that if the newspapers we read and the networks we watch {the body of reliable, published material on the subject} ignore something, then it doesn't belong in the article. Your view as a Republican voter (which you probably describe as independent libertarian who votes Republican) is that voters need to know about this because it is important. The problem is that what is important depends on a subjective viewpoint. Biden supporters like the story about him protesting a segregated theater, even though that probably never happened, while MAGA supporters like the story that he assaulted a woman, even though we have no idea whether that actually happened. I don't think articles should push one narrative over another. But whatever I think, that's what policy says, and you need to change it rather than make an exception in this case. Why don't you change policy so that it is clear that information that has been ignored by ABC, CBS, CNN and NBC news and the New York Times and Washington Post should nonetheless be mentioned in Wikipedia articles about high profile people if editors find it important?

TFD (talk) 06:23, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

TFD, please don't assume. I am not a Republican voter or a libertarian, and it shouldn't matter if I were anyway.

It's tiring to have to return back to Reade over and over. I'm glad that we at least agree as far as the sit-in; we'll have to disagree about Reade. Again, I feel that the reader is best informed by being given all relevant information about a subject. For BLPs that means including allegations for which multiple WP:RS exist, as stated in policy. At the same time we want to follow good writing principles and not edit an article in an unbalanced way (as outlined in WP:BALASP). I feel that 1-2 sentences about Reade would not disrupt the flow, balance, or structure of the article, or prejudice the reader against either Reade or Biden.

But I believe it would take paragraphs to inform the reader about Biden's claims on desegregation protests in light of the many contradictory statements made by Biden himself. So I don't think we can include entire paragraphs discussing Biden's dubious claims of having been involved in civil rights protests, not because they are unproven claims -- and to the very best of my knowledge, they are unproven claims that WP:RS do not accept -- but because, given the many contradictions involved, it would create an unbalanced article if we were to devote multiple paragraphs to a minor controversy. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 07:31, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

While it may be that some want to include or exclude a claim for political reasons, that's a separate issue from adding or deleting material based upon one's own subjective belief as to its veracity or based upon an editor's own independent research. A 'balancing aspects' objection to the inclusion of a minor event from the high school activity of the subject of a BLP is a separate issue, and one that is far more compelling in the present context than an objection along the lines of "I don't believe it so it shouldn't be included." Arllaw (talk) 16:35, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

I am not sure what you are arguing regarding independent research. No one has the right to add information based on their own independent research, however all editors have the right to investigate and discuss sources to decide if they are mainstream, reliable, and correctly interpreted when summarized or rephrased within an article. That kind of "independent research", if it may be so called, is encouraged, and we have talk pages to discuss it among ourselves. I believe your second point regarding "balancing aspects" agrees with my own. I believe it's time to request a protected edit to delete the sentence in question, given that three out of the four editors who have weighed in support doing that and you are also coming around as well, if I understand your last statement correctly. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 23:05, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 11 April 2020

Requesting to delete the sentence

"During these years, he participated in an anti-segregation sit-in at a Wilmington theater.[20]"

from section Early life (1942–1965).

I already opened a talk page discussion concerning the problematic nature of this statement and its source on April 1, 2020. Discussion attracted a total of four participants. Two others, TFD and BeŻet, expressed support. The only other participant (Arllaw) appeared opposed but seems to have acknowledged the problematic nature of including the statement. Whether that amounts to 3/4 or 4/4, consensus clearly supports removing this sentence. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 19:31, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

 Done I have removed the sentence — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:43, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

If it looks like stonewalling

The RfC above re: Tara Reade allegations includes citations/links to multiple independent RS that satisfy DUE, and it has been going on for 2+ weeks now with more RS being added - all of which clearly warrants inclusion, and perhaps even a separate article like those created for other high ranking politicians. It may turn out that if an article is created, it will end-up as a redirect like what happened with Bob Filner (noting that I was unable to find any trace of a discussion/RfC for that redirect). Regardless, my concern now is that the apparent weaknesses of the "no" arguments in opposition to inclusion based on DUE and adequate RS makes it appear that there may be some stonewalling involved. It appears even worse when coupled with the current level of PP - one wherein a single admin determines what can or cannot be added - and while there is nothing apparently wrong with the process, well...it just doesn't look good and adds to the level of concern when it should be having an opposite effect. I am certainly open to considering all legitimate reasons for censoring the material and keeping it out of the article despite WP:PAG. Perhaps a request to close at WP:AN is the way to go considering the controversial nature of this BLP? ^Atsme _Talk 📧 17:56, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Agree completely. The full protection is unnecessary and even at the time was uncalled for. With the story from the NYT today many "No" editor concerns are satisfied. Close the RFC and end the page protection, inclusion is clearly warranted. Mr Ernie (talk) 18:01, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Mr Ernie, you're free to request a close at AN at any time. I'd be surprised if it happens anytime soon, but there's one way to find out. Meanwhile, the need for page protection is not affected by the Times coverage. In fact, we are going to have another extended discussion about the article text -- if any -- given the fact that the Times coverage, when it came, was not exactly the narrative some editors here anticipated. SPECIFICO talk 19:10, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Assuming that we are all here to write a credible encyclopedia, we should not be in a rush to insert potentially harmful material into a BLP. It is important to get it right. This is not a place for breaking news. Given the canvassing and other concerns, I would like to see a team of admin evaluate and close the RfC after participation was sufficiently declined. - MrX 🖋 19:38, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

• Thryduulf, it might be time to check back in here. Most of the opposes rested on arguments akin to "Unless it's reported by the NYT, we can't report it here". The NYT published their article today, so many editors are suggesting a snow close. Atsme above raises further related issues I thought you might consider. petrarchan47คุก 18:08, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

That’s now how I see the discussion. I changed my vote because of the The New York Times coverage. I probably would had done the same if Washington Post or CNN published a front page story on it. I haven’t seen anyone else change their vote I have only seen one other editor, Guy Macon, change their vote. I’m flexible enough to change my opinion when facts change, and I think the Wikipedia does better when we wait for prominent coverage from a source which carefully fact checks an allegation instead of engaging in scandal mongering. Samboy (talk) 18:36, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

• As has been explained above, there is disagreement whether a story can be considered DUE when it has been ignored by almost all major media since due requires "a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject." There is nothing stopping you from creating an article about the incident, since its coverage establishes notability. The issue is whether or not it is a significant story for this article. The degree of coverage in both conservative and progressive alternative media will no doubt cause mainline media to pay some attention to it. I noticed that today the New York Times published an article about the case.[55] It may reach critical mass that justifies inclusion in this article, particularly if the Trump campaign makes it an election issue. But that hasn't happened yet and there is no reason why this article should give the story greater prominence than it has received in mainstream media. The purpose of articles is to summarize what mainstream sources consider important not to reveal information that they find unimportant. TFD (talk) 18:22, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

The Four Deuces, what are your precise standards for inclusion? Kolya Butternut (talk) 03:03, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

For well known people, I would expect to see ongoing news coverage in all major publications. We got the with the unwanted touching, Trump's E Hollywood tape, Warren's claims of Indian ancestry, the Dean scream and Gary Hart's affair. TFD (talk) 04:27, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

So you will not support any mention of Tara Reade in the article if anything less than precisely ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, NPR, CNN, MSNBC, FOX, BBC, The New York Times, USA Today, The Washington Post, The LA Times, The WSJ, The Boston Globe, The Chicago Tribune, The San Fransisco Chronicle, Reuters, AP News, The New Yorker, Time, The Atlantic, The Economist, each report two stories? Three stories?  Kolya Butternut (talk) 09:08, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

I would expect ongoing reporting in those sources for the main article. Bear in mind that Biden has been a senator for 36 years, VP for 8 years and a presidential candidate three times. He is now in the news every day. "[D]iscussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news." When that happens we will see her accusations included when the media does summaries of the unwanted touching allegations against Biden. In the Trump article for example, the accusations of rape of a 13 year old were virtually never included in reporting of alleged victims of sexual assault. Regardless of the credibility of the claims, they could become significant if Trump chooses to talk about them. As edit we need to ask ourselves how significant is the coverage paid to this accusation relative to overall coverage of the subject. Per WP:CRYSTALBALL, we cannot anticipate how the media will cover any story. TFD (talk) 17:21, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

That doesn't answer my question. We need a precise answer to know whether your criteria has been met, because it appears to be evolving. We could place the Tara Reade story under #2020_presidential_campaign, as it's now one of the biggest stories of his campaign. Kolya Butternut (talk) 17:54, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

• I see a discussion above proposing an early close that does not have a consensus in favour of that (actually slightly opposed if anything). Accordingly I will not be early closing this. Thryduulf (talk) 18:53, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

We’ll probably get more coverage by the time this discussion is closed and the article is unprotected. Samboy (talk) 19:09, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Thryduulf, please look again. Since The New York Times reported on Tara Reade, the !votes have been 100% for an early close. I myself opposed an early close then changed my !vote. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:11, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

• Washington Post, April 12, 2020 - Sexual Assault Allegation By Former Biden Senate Aide Emerges In Campaign, Draws Denial. That adds to the numerous other sources along with the recent addition of The New York Times. I refer to this section title. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 04:36, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

  This thread has been created in BAD FAITH. The accusation of "stonewalling" is unacceptable. Please retract your statement and close this thread. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:55, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

  I disagree per SPADE. This article has been fully locked for days and days, for the sole purpose of keeping out reliably sourced information that’s got a clear consensus on the above RFC. We ought to be able to speak freely and openly about what appears to be going on. Mr Ernie (talk) 15:00, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

  There's no excuse for bad faith, and there's especially no excuse for creating a whole thread based on the premise fellow editors aren't editing in bad faith. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:05, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, it is insulting to be told that I'm stonewalling. I can accept that editors that feel that this information is long overdue to be included, that it should have been in the article weeks ago, are giving their best estimate of what needs to be done here. But I see the situation quite differently and I should not be told that that I am being politically dishonest or disruptive. I've arrived at my opinion by constantly reminding myself of the power that we hold over the people in our bios and our responsibility to guard against doing any harm by the words that we add here. Reade says that it took her almost 30 years to report that Biden sexually assaulted her so a few more days to decide how to use this information will cause no great harm to her. On the other hand, Biden's reputation is at stake here and we need to take the time to make every effort to abide by WP's high standards for what we include in our bios. Gandydancer (talk) 16:08, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

The length of time it took Reade to report her allegation is immaterial to our decision; our decision is not based on how this affects her. Biden's reputation will not be effected by our edit, because this has already been widely reported. Wikipedia is not a news cite, but we do need to keep up. This information is extremely relevant to the 2020 election, which means it is extremely relevant to Biden's bio at this present moment. Kolya Butternut (talk) 16:20, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

We don't know if the information is extremely relevant to the 2020 election, because we don't have a WP:CRYSTALBALL. So far it hasn't been. It is not our role to tell readers what is or is not important. The seriousness or credibility of the accusations are not the criteria for inclusion, but the degree of coverage in reliable sources. Their writers decide what is or is not important, not us. TFD (talk) 17:43, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

The sources certainly describe it as extremely relevant to the 2020 election. Kolya Butternut (talk) 17:56, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

New pages: Tara Reade and Joe Biden assault allegation

FYI, the following pages were recently created:

• Redirect: Tara Reade
• Article: Joe Biden assault allegation

--Guy Macon (talk) 18:18, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Joe Biden - Covid19 Plan To Safely Reopen America?

Possible addition? => On April 12, 2020, former vice-president Joe Biden proposed a plan, published in The New York Times, to safely reopen America. - iac - Stay Safe and Healthy !! Drbogdan (talk) 19:38, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

References

Edit request

Add

In April 2020, news organizations published articles about allegations by Tara Reade that Biden had sexually assaulted her when she was a Senate aide in 1993. A Biden spokesperson said the allegation was false. On April 11, Reade reported the alleged 1993 incident to the Metropolitan Police Department of the District of Columbia. After Reade's allegations surfaced, additional reported incidents of inappropriate touching with Biden were reexamined, including from former member of the Nevada Assembly, Lucy Flores and former staffers.

--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 20:08, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Sources

Not now... You will need to wait for consensus to be determined in the RfC above. - MrX 🖋 21:12, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

This is clearly a case of moving goal posts. People said, don't include until it's in the NY Times. Now that it's in the NY Times, they're looking for other excuses. A few editors motivated by bias to abuse their power and keep important content out of the article, undermining Wikipedia's credibility. Velva.kilb1983 (talk) 16:15, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

You're not off to good start here. - MrX 🖋 16:47, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

The New York Times article certainly gives the complaint the coverage it needs to put it in the article, but the NYT article also suggests the complaint is likely without merit. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:52, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

It was evident from the outset that this would happen at some point. A persistent elevation of the complaint via social media and various internet sites ensured that at some point the mainstream media would report on their investigations into the complaint and those who are promoting it. Because it has not been covered as a credible claim, the article text that may ultimately be agreed is not going to look like the first edits that put it in the article before the page protection. SPECIFICO talk 17:03, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

I agree 100%. This is the world we live in now. It's depressing that garbage media, social media and Russian bots have so much power over the agenda. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:14, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Actions set precedent. And unfortunately the precedent that was set during the Kavanaugh hearings was that facts aren’t needed to establish a credible claim. There’s more corroboration to Reade’s allegation than any of the Kavanaugh allegations, as those she told at the time confirmed she reported it, despite all of the named Kavanaugh witnesses denying the event. It’s an unfortunate circumstance we find ourselves in, but nonetheless once allegations are reported by mainstream RS they are suitable for inclusion into Wikipedia BLP’s. The difference in coverage between the two situations, despite their unverifiable similarities, is striking. I can’t understand why that is the case. Mr Ernie (talk) 17:40, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

That is a BLP violation to misrepresent the others as having "denied the event". Please remove it and be more careful in the future. SPECIFICO talk 18:19, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

It's a BLP violation against Tara Reade to say it has not been reported as a credible claim. Kolya Butternut (talk) 18:23, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Please remove that remark. I was not addressing you and you have no right to suggest that I have impugned Ms. Reade or anyone else. SPECIFICO talk

Nonsense. It’s a BLP violation to say any witness corroborated the Kavanaugh claims. Mr Ernie (talk) 18:28, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

You know I didn't say that any witness corroborated the claim, so I'll ignore that. Nobody "denied" the alleged evant in the Kavanaugh case. They said they had no memory about it. Frankly, if you don't understand the difference between those, you should not make such statements. If you do understand the difference -- now -- I think you should redact the smear against the witness. SPECIFICO talk 18:50, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

No one said don't include until the New York Times had reported it, they said that if the mainstream media had not reported the case it failed weight. It's like saying, "You can't say he's rich, he doesn't even have enough money to pay the rent." That doesn't mean if he raises the money to pay the rent, he is ipso facto rich. TFD (talk) 19:26, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Anyone who has suggested that Ms. Reade's claims are not credible or have been reported as not credible, please strike your comments; they are a WP:BLP violation.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 20:19, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

I agree. It's also irrelevant. TFD (talk) 21:07, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

The same goes for the smears against Christine Blasey Ford.@Mr Ernie: SPECIFICO talk 21:12, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Sanders endorsed Biden

I added the following to the article, through full protection and without asking for consensus first.

On April 13 Sanders endorsed Biden in a live-streamed discussion on split screens from both of their homes.

Sources

I thought this was such obviously important news that it wouldn't be necessary to get consensus here first. But my edit has been criticized at WP:AN#Please correct me if I'm wrong but the goal is prevention so I will revert it and ask permission here before re-adding it. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:21, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

• Seems entirely fine. I cannot conceive of any genuine objection to this. Neutrality^talk 23:25, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

You'd be surprised. :-( -- MelanieN (talk) 23:37, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

MelanieN, I think there's a distinction between the contents of the edit and how the edit was done. An administrator has no special powers to edit, yet an administrator has more tools to edit. You violated the first part when you edited the fully protected article without seeking consensus, especially as an admin who edits in the American Political area as an editor.

That being said, I don't think there is anything wrong with this edit being in the article. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 23:59, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Your addition was incomplete. When someone is accused of sexual assaults and is reported in all major news outlets, he becomes radioactive, we should be cautious about how to write that endorsement. 1) The NYT article you cited and Bernie Sanders himself have said that Sanders supports "Joe Biden" candidacy. 2) The source says that Bernie move was to unite the party. This should be mentioned.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 00:05, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

I would shorten it to "On April 13 Sanders endorsed Biden." That's all the information that is necessary for the main Joe Biden article. TFD (talk) 00:08, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

See my comment above. That would be BLP violation and not accurate. The relevant source mentions at the top that Bernie supported Biden "candidacy" and Bernie didn't say he endorse Joe Biden, he said "I support your [Joe Biden's] candidacy"--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 00:12, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

I am opposed to virtually any edits to the article until the RfC is closed, but especially edits that add current news. Adding Bernie's endorsement to the article would be prioritizing favorable news over unfavorable news. Both stories are facts, both stories should be included. Wait until the RfC closes before adding any new news please. Kolya Butternut (talk) 00:18, 14 April 2020 (UTC)