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Ottava Rima

User:Ottava Rima commented on the talk of WikiProject Freemasonry asking us to assess Christopher Smart within the scope of the project here. We explained to him that not only do we not assess bio articles, there are no sources confirming Smart's membership, which there most certainly would be, even in the 1700s.

It then comes about that later scholars believe Smart wrote a rebuttal to Laurence Dermott's Ahiman Rezon, which is a book well-known to Masonic historians as part of a schism in early Freemasonry. Ottava's contention is that that rebuttal prevented changes in Freemasonry. The rebuttal was published in 1765, and the schism was healed in 1813. none of us in the project know of this rebuttal or have ever heard it mentioned. Ottava then pulled a mention in a footnote in another history no one in the project has heard of, which ascribes the book to a Dr. Cassigny. Needless to say, this does not seem to be strong evidence.

We figured that would be that, but as can be seen from the thread, it has escalated into personal attacks, and reversals of statements, most notably going from "there are no records" to "here are some records." Ottava has produced no sources, and from checking his additions to the article on Smart's A Song to David against the article by Rose in Philological Quarterly, what Ottava says that Rose says is not what Rose says. Ottava is picking and choosing his sources and taking material out of context in order to make the point he wants to make (see diff). This is turning from a content problem into a violation of policy issue, as well as trying to force a project to do what he wants, and I think some admin intervention is needed here. There seems to be an agenda involved, as there's quite a bit of misuse of sources, and some real need to get an admission of Smart's membership and his supposed importance within Freemasonry, and a steadfast refusal to acknowledge any position but his own, which seems, from sources, to be flawed. MSJapan (talk) 01:10, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Also, given what Ottava thinks is appropriate research to support a claim as shown on Talk:A Song to David#What Rose Says, and how easy it was to show that the position taken by the scholar was not the one Ottava claimed the scholar took, I further request that he be topic-banned until his edits can be scrutinized for accuracy. MSJapan (talk) 02:22, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

It is obvious from the project page that MSJapan is completely misconstruing everything I have stated. For example, when he claims I reversed myself, he is unwilling to actually quote, because nothing I say verifies anything that he claims. Also, his claims about what John Rose states was blatantly false and proven such on the talk page. He is moving between page after page in directly conflict with WP:V. He has no respect for that policy, nor respect for the encyclopedia. I can provide all quotes from each source if needed, but it is enough to say that even John Carter pointed out where MSJapan is wrong on this matter. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:23, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

It should also be noted that I indicated that there could be good reason to think that, with no extant original sources regarding this subject being a Mason, as seems to be the case, when such records are generally easily available, that the lack of that evidence could be seen as a reason for saying the subject was not a Mason. It should also be noted that the subject of the complaint has made a few declarations that policy and guidelines demand banners be placed on certain articles when in fact no such statements are made. On that basis, I believe that there is reasonable cause to suspect the subject of the complaint may be, intentionally or not, misrepresenting other matters as well. John Carter (talk) 02:28, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Claiming that there would be easy to find original evidence is a red herring and completely false. There are a lot of famous Masons whose original documentation will never be found. Most of Smart's letters were destroyed or vanished, and the Masons were in their infancy at the time which was also filled with turmoil. Documents get destroyed. Fires happen. However, even the Masonic Lodge that specializes in 18th century British Masonry published a historical account of Smart as a Mason and his role with Masonry via his A Defence of Freemasonry. The only one who is in serious denial about Smart being a mason is MSJapan, and WP:V would not side with his original research. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:37, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

An example of MSJapan's constant use of incorrect information.

Here. You can see the two different versions. My statement is completely correct even when you add in the secondary section:

(My original quote) "There is no public record explicitly connecting Christopher Smart with Freemasonry. There does exist a poem attributed to "Brother C. Smart, A.M," published in a volume called A Defence of Freemasonry, in the mid-1760s, but it is of course possible that another C. Smart was the author of that work. The most suggestive evidence is therefore a line from the definitively attributed Jubilate Agno, which was written contemporaneously with the Song: "For I am the Lord's builder and free and accepted MASON in CHRIST JESUS" (B109). At a mnimum, this line establishes that Smart had Freemasonry on his mind. A close analysis of the Song to David reveals that he was familiar with symbols from all three of the craft degrees, and undoubtedly the best source for such detailed knowledge would have been personal experience."

(His addition) "But there were certainly other potential sources, for example the extremely popular expose Masonry Dissected by Samuel Prichard, published in 1730. This pamphlet ran through three editions in eleven days and remained readily available in London for over a century. It was also reputed to be one of the means by which the still young practice of speculative Freemasonry became standardized in Britain and abroad. In other words, Smart would have read it whether he were a Freemason or not."

What he leaves out: "The most important thing to be said is this: much of the symbolism of Freemasonry derives from the story of the building of Solomon's temple, of which David was the divinely inspired architect. Upon this basis alone one is justified in pursuing the question of Masonic symbolism in the Song to David."

Now, if you read my original summation of Rose, I was completely accurate: "Although it is not know for sure if Christopher was a Freemason or not, there is evidence suggesting that he was either part of the organization or had a strong knowledge of its belief system which "undoubtably the best source for such detailed knowledge would have been personal experience.""

I left a little bit of doubt, and I included Rose's mocking of the doubt of Christopher Smart's Masonic membership.

If you notice, his version: "Rose claims in 2005 that it is not known for sure if Smart was a Freemason or not; there is no public record explicitly connecting Smart with Freemasonry there is conjecture that he was either a Freemason or had a strong knowledge of its symbols from an expose of the time."

Leaves out the top portion of the paragraph that recounts the constant scholarly association of Smart as a Mason. Instead, he claims "Had you bothered to read any farther than the one sentence you found to support your position," which you can see is patently absurd when I quoted the whole section of the paragraph that comes before, which proves the half of the assertion he was denying (that Rose gives evidence supporting Smart as a Mason). If anything, MSJapan is being complete incivil, is denying WP:V, and is pushing a POV that is not backed up by scholarship. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:48, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Time to restrain Ottava Rima from wasting so much of people's time?

Ottava Rima again..? I thought they were supposed to have reformed. Compare previous ANI threads on OR here and here (initiated by Awadewit). I have a feeling there may be further threads, which better sleuths than me may be able to find. See also Ottawa Rima's block log here. It's time to stop this uncollegial editor from wasting quite so much of other people's time, IMO. Some page bans, mentorship, or a longer block? May we have some input on alternatives from uninvolved users, please? Bishonen | talk 08:06, 20 June 2008 (UTC).
P. S. I just fortuitously came across another OR thread, from late April: "Repeated extreme incivility by User:Ottava Rima", containing depressing examples of OR's behaviour on WP:FAC, plus some strikingly unresponsive lawyering by OR: "This topic is misplaced. The appropriate place for "civility" issues is Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts. Furthermore, the use of "extreme" in the title heading is unproven POV on an issue." By this principle, all of AN and ANI are no doubt "POV", a concept which (of course) applies to articles only, not to discussion boards. Incidentally, I should perhaps have made it clear that I myself am entirely uninvolved, and have no grudge or beef whatsoever against OR; I've only had one brief and perfectly pleasant exchange with them, on my talkpage. (That's one of the reasons I hoped and believed there had been reform.) The issue for me is 100% OR's inappropriate wasting of the time and energy of others (as evidenced above). Those others could have been cheerfully writing content instead of (cheerlessly) trying to contain this kind of behaviour. Time to help them? Bishonen | talk 11:21, 20 June 2008 (UTC).

Bishonen, your history of the events is quite ridiculous to anyone who bothered to read them. Your account does not reflect consensus nor the outcome of those events, and it is rather shameful that you portrayed them in such a way. Ottava Rima (talk) 11:28, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

For anyone who is willing to look at things rationally, you will see that the overwhelming consensus was against Awadewit even taking the matter to AN/I, and that the consensus was against the community doing anything about editors responding to FA reviews. As was determined, I was not causing any major problems over the issues, and I took a leave of absence from FA Review as a show of good faith. As the proceeding thread demonstrates, users bring topics to AN/I that do not belong there in order to push their POV. Bishonen has continued just that. The only serious matter here is MSJapan going against WP:V and WP:STALKing me across many pages in order to revert verifiable content. I have proven that the content is perfectly verifiable, and if he had any problems with that, he would have taken it to the Reliable sources noticeboard.

When Bishonen talks about "reform", he is completely making up facts that clearly do not exist. The only statement that I was not to make is to ask people to go to another Wikipedia project if they would not accept the rules of Wikipedia. That is it. Have I done such? Clearly not. I will ask Bishonen to prove that his interest here is over civility and for him to strike his obvious inaccuracies. Ottava Rima (talk) 11:32, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to try and, as a neutral admin, go through this. It might take a bit of time so have a little patience all. One quick note - Bishonen is a "she", I believe. Neıl 龱 11:35, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Its hard to settle pronouns when the pseudonym is gendered the opposite way. Ottava Rima (talk) 11:52, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Neil, if you were wondering about Bishonen's characterization of me, why not look here and here, where I effectively brought together two sides that were adamantly opposed to one another and removed a large source of the controversy. There is far more than just that, but it only takes one example to point out a character smear. Ottava Rima (talk) 11:55, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay. As best I can tell, Ottava Rima is editing in good faith. This is a content dispute only. It has not spilled over into incivility, edit-warring, or any real disruption. The only issue is Ottava's belief that he is always right, a common belief shared by many, many Wikipedia editors. This has led to a somewhat uncollegiate attitude, as Bishonen correctly states. Docboat (talk · contribs) has kindly made an offer to Ottava Rima at the bottom of Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Freemasonry#Assessment, and I suggest he takes him up on it. Ottava, whilst you clearly intend well, it is important to understand others have differing views. A review of Wikipedia:The Truth (be warned - it is written humorously, but has a somewhat worthy message) might be worthwhile, as might the excellent Wikipedia:Beware of the tigers (particularly the last two paragraphs, which everyone should read and take to heart). To sum up, I think this was being handled well enough on the Wikiproject's talk page, and I don't think a block or a topic ban is warranted. Some sort of mentorship in the ins and outs of collaborative editing, perhaps, which could nip this in the bud before it does spill over into bad behaviour (emphasising I haven't seen any of this to date). Neıl 龱 11:58, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Neil, the issue is not good faith. "Good faith" is the test for vandals, and no one is accusing Ottava Rima of being a vandal. Instead, people are testifying to their experiences of dealing with this editor. She may write with good faith, when he or she does an article, but it's profoundly obvious that this editor is exceptionally rude, obsessed, and hostile. My own version of "civility" asks whether a person's actions are for or against community function: Ottava Rima's hostility and ignorance are anti-social and therefore uncivil, disruptive (look at the links Bishonen has provided: just look at all the time people are having to lose saying the same things over and over again). I'm glad that you want to be neutral, but you are, essentially, wanting to reset the clock to day one. This isn't the first. This is a trail of frustration all centered on one figure. Geogre (talk) 13:44, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I must point out here that Geogre's definition of "civility" includes belittling editors constantly, especially his recent outbursts against John Carter over his assessing pages as "start" even though they clearly fit the criteria as such. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:00, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Way ahead of you Neil. And collaborative editing? As you can see from the Rosalind Picard page, as with others, I have done a lot of collaborative editing and have been recognized for it. However, it takes two to do such. Ottava Rima (talk) 12:49, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

You remove every comment that asks you to stop, leave every bit of praise, and therefore mislead people into thinking that you are not vexatious. In fact, you are a time sink, from my experience, and incapable of recognizing your errors, much less of learning from them. Geogre (talk) 13:37, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

If you are going to make claims, don't make ones that are easily checked. As anyone can see from my talk page, I have left things that are pertinent, and I have removed that which is not. I have removed neutral and positive comments along with negative comments. However, its my talk page, so I can do whatever I want in removing or leaving comments. There is a history if anyone cares. Now, if you want to talk about "errors", I will merely mention your recent actions in regards to John Carter over assessments, your inability to allow people to put proper inline citations into articles to bring them to GA, A, or FA quality, and your improper deletion being overturned by community consensus. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:51, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

To make up for any "wasted" time, here is a poem for the audience's enjoyment:

A Defence

Childish games and childish fights, have spread 'round,

And bring forth those who merely want to play.

Of course, our hero would be called unsound,

By such who speak half truths, false claims, they say

That they are unique, and problems they found,

That are just mere phantoms; but he must pay.

And so it begins, more who do not care,

Poor Wikipedia they will not spare.

To many, the poor Lass is just a tool

For venting their rage or spreading their hate;

But must it be this way? Don't let it fool

You into thinking that it is our fate.

We can move on now, just follow the rule

And realize that they will never be sate.

People as these trouble to bring they must

But are their actions and claims really just?

No, is the answer, and no it must be,

Since there is nothing to claim for a ground,

Once you open your eyes and choose to see,

Everything here that's waiting to be found.

One who makes claims that all accounts are free

Of mention; And he only circles 'round

The same point, athough the proof contrary

Is given; his own mind merry.

And of the others, I will now proceed

To give account of their action and tell

How from that sacred truth they have receed.

The one he mocks, the one he tries to sell

A story of Verify not. This deed

He spread, edit made, and so pages fell

At his hand and inaccuracies spread

Until this place, this post, which it has led.

Now what can I say? Now what can be done?

Since Melodrama has reared its large head;

That awful beast is here to ruin fun

As it demands in earnest to be fed.

Please don't feed it! Kill it now! Or else none

Will be spared. I think that is enough said.

So shall I end; is it really too soon?

Nah, I say, but I shall conclude my tune.

Editor I am, a Writer you see,

Who spends all of his time with research much

And gives my findings to sacred Wiki.

Why all of this fuss? Why all of this such?

It is really more than what has to be,

And all this needs just a delicate touch.

So when there are those who rush to accuse,

It is poor Wiki who will surely lose.

- Ottava Rima, The Italian Rhyme, Ottava Rima (talk) 12:49, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Let wiki’s boffins chew the plaintiff’s cud,

What worries me’s not this – God only knows -

But rather how you haul rhyme through the mud

Play loose with rules and end up writing prose.

‘Sate’ ‘receed’ are poorly placed there, bud,

The iambics limp, and almost anything goes.

The measured art that Wyatt and Byron used

Though honoured in the breech, is quite confused.
Nishidani (talk) 16:38, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

• I have to fault Bishonen: what made her think that Ottava Rima (which is not "the Italian rhyme," but an eight lined form used by Dante) had reformed? Ottava Rima has consistently acted like a contributing troll. That person's contributions tend to be ham fisted, poorly written, and quite frequently in ignorance of other articles. Wikipedia seems to exist for him or her to write upon, and anyone who asks for form, asks for content, or, worst of all, edits the entries is going to get, per above, two or three screens of "and another thing" attacks. I have said it before, and I see no reason to change my opinion: this editor is not suitable for a cooperative editing environment. I imagine that this comment will be lost in another two screens of attack and lawyering, but I agree with Bishonen: it's time to lose the marginal gains from this user, if we can prevent the monumental losses of time caused by Ottava Rima's poor behavior and labile performance. Geogre (talk) 13:35, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

If anyone wants to know if Geogre is correct or not, merely look at the editors that have complimented my work, have complimented my writing, have complimented me over my handling of Rosalind Picard et al, and the fact that Geogre is known to WP:OWN 18th century pages, causing problems for those like John Carter and constantly belittling and abusing users, abusing his powers, such as deleting pages which was quickly overturned by community consensus, and other such things that show that his testimony here is quite a mockery to everything Wikipedia is. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:51, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

• What "history" and what "account" of mine is that you're talking about, Ottava Rima? All I can see myself doing above, is 1) link to ANI threads and encourage people to read them and form an opinion of your editing, 2) suggest ways for you of improving your interaction with others. (Tentatively: page bans, a block, or mentorship. Other people may have other and better suggestions.) It's not expected you'll agree any improvement is needed; people rarely do. But I'd like to hear from others. Are you sure you actually read my post, beyond the header? I ask because you're continuing to use "POV" in the same absurd way ("users bring topics to AN/I that do not belong there in order to push their POV. Bishonen has continued just that"). even though I had just pointed out that POV is applicable to articles only. How could it possibly be applicable to discussion boards? The notion makes my head hurt, quite apart from the insulting notion that I have a POV about you, just after I stated I have no personal negative opinion about you whatever, and only pleasant interchanges. I'm used to brushing off insults, and happy to do it, but if you say I lie, kindly be prepared to back it up. Anyway. I'm sorry to see that "When Bishonen talks about "reform", he is completely making up facts that clearly do not exist." I apologize for thinking you reformed. WP:AGF has a lot to answer for. Bishonen | talk 14:04, 20 June 2008 (UTC).

Your history of my actions and your account of my actions are patently absurd and ignore the resulting community consensus, both of which did not pan out to match your claims. POV is not WP:NPOV. Perhaps, instead of making personal attacks about me not reading, you open your horizons beyond Wikipedia terminology and realize that I am talking about your limited prespective and presentation. You cannot put out random threads, make claims, ignore the results, and ignore the other 95% of my character. That is called a smear. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:08, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, gee. I both can and will "put out random threads". Why shouldn't I? Those are interesting links. Is your block log also "random"? But, one more time, and then I'm done here, sorry for the repetitiousness (and for, ahem, taking up so much ANI space): I have not offered any history. I have not made any claims, absurd or not. And far be it from me to comment on any percentage whatever of your character. Still kind of hoping some other people (whether involved or not) besides Neil will have input, though. Bishonen | talk 15:38, 20 June 2008 (UTC).

And Bishonen, you keep throwing out "reform" as if it is pertinent to this case. My AN/Is deal with two things - FA reviewing for saying people should leave if they don't like the procedures, and FA reviewer who was told by the community that her views did not actually hold up, and I stepped away to demonstrate that my intentions are not personal, unlike Awadewits were. I did not have to step down from FA reviewing for a while. I chose to. There is no "reform" necessary, nor reform needed. I was asked to stop saying one set of words during the process, and that was it. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:11, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know the history here, but if Ottava Rima has been editing disruptively, we don't need to care whether it's being done in good faith or not. Good faith is a necessary but not sufficient condition for editing here. Competence is required as well. (I don't have much opinion yet on the disruptiveness of this editor; I just wanted to say that "good faith" is mostly a straw man in this context.) Friday (talk) 15:48, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Ottava Rima blocked

Ok, fine. I've blocked Ottava Rima (talk · contribs) indefinitely - that Freemason nonsense was just absurd, both the edit-warring on List of Freemasons and the trolling on the WikiProject talk page - but will promptly unblock if and when he acknowledges he's actually doing something wrong and agrees to stop editing disruptively and abide by a stringent civility supervision. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 15:56, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

(ec) I was about to say that I've look mostly at two pieces of evidence, the block log, and the habit of removing critical messages from his talk page, and it seems clear that this is not the kind of editor who should be welcome here. I was about to endorse liberal use of cluebat as needed, and it looks like it's already done. Only thing I have to add is that he be kept on a short lease if unblocked. I don't object to "one last chance" I guess, as long as it's really "one last chance" not Wikipedia patented "One last chance except an infinite number of additional last chances". Friday (talk) 16:00, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Good point. Further, Ottava, you remind me very strongly of Pigsonthewing (talk · contribs): please don't go down that route, for your sake and ours. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 16:05, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

His block log is really made up of only a few issues. A few cases of edit warring and a single legal threat issue (where it was greatly disputed if there was even an actual threat having been made). If you're saying your other piece of evidence of disruption is that he removes message on his talk page, then maybe I'm missing something. -- Ned Scott 07:40, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• Good block, and I endorse that it can only be lifted upon Ottava Rima's acknowledgment that s/he is at fault and will take steps to curtail their problematic attitude. LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:34, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
• I ran across this after a spurious filing at WQA. I agree this block is richly earned and concur with LHvU's suggested criteria for it to be rescinded. Eusebeus (talk) 20:27, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, the thing is that apparently Ottava Rima actually has this whole bunch of books in front of him anytime he writes about something. So I'm pretty sure that whatever statements he makes are actually correct. And I can understand the tendency to revert someone when "it says so right here right in front of me!". <scratches head> The frustrating thing is that yeah, he's very much a prescriptivist (aka wikilawyer), and not good at the whole consensus building thing. I think it's mutually exclusive. I think we're going to get more and more people like him on wikipedia though, wikilawyering is very much creeping in (think of stuff like "this policy is non-negotiable" that's showing up in places). I'll go talk with him some. He has been useful occaisionally. ^^;; --Kim Bruning (talk) 00:10, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Kim, I hate to disagree with you on this, but I have had the most unpleasant and unproductive discussions with Ottava Rima. For example, when I removed "John Newbery" from the list of the eighteenth-century children's authors because the evidence that he is an author is very limited and scholars do not agree on it at all (he is famous as a publisher of children's books), Ottava Rima and I had mini-2RR which he mischaracterized as "edit warring". I left a message on his talk page, citing the biographies I have read for my dissertation on eighteenth-century children's literature. Ottava Rima then responded in an extremely hostile manner on my talk page, citing an encyclopedia entry for his research, while I was citing the definitive bibliography of books Newbery published that details all of the authorship problems. I would have been happy to discuss this issue with Ottava Rima, but he refused to and accused me to having done no research, even though I cited it. I have had other problems like this with him and, like Geogre, have found him a problem editor that claims to know a great deal, but when it comes down to it, often makes bizarre statements, such as that the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica is reliable. These are but two of a long list of strange encounters I have encountered with Ottava Rima that have not convinced me that he knows the scholarship he claims to know. Awadewit (talk) 18:36, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Uh, call me crazy but isn't this not how blocks are supposed to be used? "Blocked till he admits he was wrong"? WTF? -- Ned Scott 02:06, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Per WP:BLOCK;

Important note – Blocks are intended to reduce the likelihood of future problems, by either removing, or encouraging change in, a source of disruption. They are not intended for use in retaliation, as punishment, or where there is no current conduct issue which is of concern.

(my underlining)- in which acknowledgment of there being a problem is a prerequisite to resolving the issue. LessHeard vanU (talk) 14:23, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Block review

Ottava Rima has been labeled as a wikilawyer, but I don't think that's case here. A wikilawyer is someone who is trying to intentionally game the system, rather than honestly feeling that one should have a strict adhesion to rules. From my own experience with him, Ottava Rima seems to be the latter. Ottava Rima has really only been active for about six months, and I can understand that he still holds a very strict view about rules and Wikipedia.

I'm not sure if he's actually wrong on most of this stuff, either. Rather, it's the confrontational way he says things and his uncompromising approach that puts people off. I think that's something must of us will agree on.

Other editors are annoyed at Ottava. They're greatly annoyed at Ottava. They feel like a lot of time has been wasted trying to explain things. Wikipedia, in general, is very quick to dismiss people if we don't feel they're helping out, regardless of what they're actually doing. I understand that we can't hold everybody's hand, but a block like this doesn't seem appropriate. File an RfC, do a temp topical ban if you must, but don't twist his arm and go "say you were wrong". -- Ned Scott 07:36, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Some admins seem to have this approach though. It is fortunate that people who think that such admins are wrong in their approach do not adopt the same method of blocking them until they admit they are wrong. I'm not greatly enamoured with Ottava Rima's approach either, but then I don't agree with Moreschi's approach either. However, I don't think either should be blocked 'until they mend their ways'. However, blocking as a warning does help, sometimes. The recent block of User:Alansohn is a good example of this. People reacting badly to a block is also to be expected though. Don't judge people purely by their reaction to a block. Carcharoth (talk) 08:21, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

The whole "prescriptivist" approach ("These are the rules, and thou shalt obey them") is confrontational and uncompromising. And it pisses people off. So a good approach is to wean people off of prescriptivism as quickly as possible, which is what I'm doing with Ottava Rima now.

Unfortunately, as it stands at the moment, there are a number of people pushing for a prescriptivist approach on wikipedia in general (and I've failed to stop them), so despite my efforts to help Ottava Rima improve somewhat, in future, you should expect more people to start behaving like Ottava Rima is doing now. --Kim Bruning (talk) 13:34, 21 June 2008 (UTC) And those people will start nominating admins, and the admins will then ban you for trolling. Cue the soviet wikipedia jokes  ;-)

Arbcom is leading the way on moving from descriptive policies to prescriptive policies. Maybe our sheer size makes this necessary. Perhaps its time to formally announce the death of "Being an admin is no big deal" and "Ignore all rules". Organizations need to change as they grow. Even in backwater articles where you can edit without anyone bothering you, bots come by and impose uniformity according to some guideline somewhere. WAS 4.250 (talk) 13:58, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Seeing the sheer depth of animosity the prescriptivist approach has caused here, I don't think it's a good thing. Organizations do occasionally need change as they grow and the environment around them changes, but this does not imply that such changes should therefore be pathological! --Kim Bruning (talk) 14:25, 21 June 2008 (UTC) Rather the opposite, the larger the organization, the more damage is caused by pathological changes. You say that organizations need to be able to change; so it should be easy to see that approaches which tend to which preclude future change (a property of prescriptivism) are pathological by your own admission even! :-P

Proposal for refactoring Ottava Rima's block

I propose to undo Moreschi's conditional block and to reblock for one week, unconditionally (and including time served, if I can ever work that out). A week seems about right, in view of Ottava Rima's block log and persistence in disruptive editing, attacks on users, and steadfast refusal to consider the effects of their own behaviour and demeanour. I do see an indefblock in Ottava Rima's wikifuture, unfortunately, if they stay on the track they're on, but I hope they'll be able to pull up. And if not, it's still proper for us to lead up gradually to a really serious block or ban, rather than going straight to indeff from 24 hours. If one week doesn't have the hoped-for educational effect, one month might suitably be next.

About Moreschi's block: I'm against using indeffblocking to squeeze apologies or acknowledgements out of people. Admins aren't here to humiliate users, however poorly they behave. While it's OK for a block to come with conditions for unblocking, those conditions should not go beyond purely practical undertakings for the future. For instance: a block of Ottava Rima might have the condition "You will be unblocked as soon as you undertake to not edit disruptively". (Note that such a condition would not require OR to admit that s/he ever has been editing disruptively, even though disruption would be the block reason. The user is not to be forced to admit something they don't believe, or in fact forced to admit anything.) Or, "as soon as you promise not to write bad poetry on ANI". Or ,"as soon as you find yourself a promising and willing mentor, to be vetted by the blocking admin". In the case of broken promises, even broken in good faith (see Friday's nice essay on competence), the user would be promptly re-blocked. Something like that would IMO be the second best way of refactoring Moreschi's block; but I prefer one week unconditionally, per above. What do you say? " Do you accept it, Moreschi? Bishonen | talk 14:20, 21 June 2008 (UTC).

• Blocks are preventative. Once there is an undertaking to contribute in an appropriate manner (which would include, if not necessary acknowledge, the problematic area) then there is no reason for a block. LessHeard vanU (talk) 14:28, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
  • OK. But while you're about it, Less, could you also respond to my actual suggestion and question, (="I propose to undo Moreschi's conditional block and to reblock for one week, unconditionally...Do I have community approval for my proposed action?"), please? After all, most blocks are unconditional. It's the normal thing around here. My discussion of Moreschi's block and of the kinds of conditions that are unacceptable versus acceptable was more of a digression. Oh noes, have I entangled myself again? :-( Bishonen | talk 14:54, 21 June 2008 (UTC).
    • Um, that would be no to an unconditional block of a week. I do not see how, other than preventing OR from contributing for seven days, how such a sanction achieves the desired result. LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:03, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
• My only qualm with this is that Ottava Rima has shown no understanding of why he was blocked. At the risk of stating the obvious, Wikipedia is a community project. Ergo, we have to work with each other, ergo, there has to be compromise and give and take. Which usually means letting some things drop, not making things personal, and being open to compromise and the possibility of fallibility. If you can't go along with that, unless you're God, you're a tendentious editor. Hence the block - trying to make Ottava Rima realise that his current approach to his fellow editors is unacceptable. A crude way of doing so, yes, but I couldn't think of any other.
• But, yes, the block reduction is fine, though I would like it to come with a civility supervision and a "open promise" that further tendentious editing will be followed by a month-long-block, followed by indef. Accceptable? Moreschi (talk) (debate) 14:48, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
  • • Are you saying you'd like to supervise their civility...? :P But, yes, sure, suits me. Stating the progression that I actually had in mind (one week—>one month—>indef) up front in the log at this time would be informative for the user and others, so why not. Fine. Bishonen | talk 15:07, 21 June 2008 (UTC).
  • For the record, I still don't see anything wrong with a conditional block that says "No unblock unless you promise to change your ways for the better towards your fellow editors". Again, many 3RR blocks are kind of conditional: you can usually get yourself unblocked if you promise to stay away from the article you edit-warred over. But if we don't like that, I would like to see OR put on civility supervision, at the least. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 14:59, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
    • Yes, but the 3RR users aren't forced to say they've been bad. That's the sticking point for me. Ottava Rima must be allowed to insist that their way towards their fellow editors is perfectly fine, however far-fetched it may seem to some of those fellow editors. Leave people some dignity. Bishonen | talk 15:07, 21 June 2008 (UTC).

agreed here . the assumption in blocking policy is that after a short block, people learn, and if not and they continue, we do sucessively longer block, at a reasonable degree of escalation, until they either do or they get to indef--and it takes multiple stages to get there--not 2 days--1 month--indef, but more like 24 h, 48 h, 1 week, 2 w, 1m , 2m, 6m, .... . The assumption being that they will learn at some stage--anything faster than this is punitive, Immediate use of indef must be kept for really outrageous disruption, not just over-persistent harping on a point. And we do not have a policy of blocking for 3RR or the like indefinitely until someone promises to be good--that has to be kept for people returning from a well-earning long block when the alternative is not to readmit them into the community because of the amount of distrust engendered. This is nowhere near that. OR is an editor I've run into conflict with myself, but the way to have dealt with the problems he caused at the wikiProject would have been to simply ignore his requests that they get involved where they didnt want to get involved, not start arguing the history of the Freemasons with him. It was a bad indef block for a vague offense, the conditions are unreasonable, and I am prepared to unblock without further ado or any conditions, with the usual understanding that resumption will cause a reblock for a slightly longer time than the present one, as usual. I think Moresci is not showing his usually excellent sense of proportion here. DGG (talk) 17:19, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• You're right- the longest block before was only 48 hours? We can do better than jumping from that to indefinite. He does need to change his approach or be shown the door, but we can give him a few more shots at this. I'm not sure explicitly spelled out future block lengths are needed; I think we can play this by ear. (But I've no major objection to them, either.) I don't care much for declarations of intent to improve- I want to see a demonstration of improvement. Maybe it sounded weird above for me to suggest that his blanking criticism from his talk page was a factor. But I think it's appropriate- most of the disruptive behavior we see here comes down to one basic problem: a lack of willingness of an editor to put observation of community norms ahead of their own whims or agenda. Any indication of an "I don't care what you say, I'll do what I want" attitude is a serious problem. Friday (talk) 17:51, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, I asked, and Ottava Rima says he'll certainly do his best. I don't expect immediate perfection from him, but a willingness to learn goes a long long way with me. I was going to support Bishonen's position, but with that discussed, I'm willing to support DGG. --Kim Bruning (talk) 18:09, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• Well, I think Ottava Rima has been classically disruptive just here on ANI—shrug. But then perhaps his worst actions in the thread above only stand out in their full ugliness for people who're aware of the background to them. Those are his flame-thrower attempts, here and here, to re-ignite the just reluctantly subsiding all-out forest fire between John Carter and Geogre. (Place any refs to WP:AGF on my talkpage, please.) Congratulations to John Carter for not rising to OR's siren invitations to join in a fresh round of Geogre-bashing. Bishonen | talk 19:23, 21 June 2008 (UTC).

That was not very politic, indeed. --Kim Bruning (talk) 19:29, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary, I think it was. It didn't succeed, but it might easily have. Bishonen | talk 19:36, 21 June 2008 (UTC).

Oof. ^^;; He shouldn't do that though. --Kim Bruning (talk) 19:58, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I would like to note that Ottava has finally listed the material in some (but not all) of the sources at issue (most notably absent are the Masonic sources like Phoenix Lodge No. 9 and Masonic Records 1716-1886) in a section on his talk page. I have replied with my reasoning, and I invite the discussion participants here to view the documentation for themselves here. MSJapan (talk) 00:40, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I figure he's posting stuff you're asking for as quickly it comes in from the libraries. Told you so! I think he's pretty much acting in good faith here, not to mention working pretty darn hard, eh? :-) Frankly, there's no way I can keep up with him when it comes to sourcing.

Now if he could just be a bit better at cooperating with people. But he's willing to learn that too. Can you help him out on that count?

--Kim Bruning (talk) 01:12, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Probably not. He is making baseless statements on reliability of sources he's never seen, and is misconstruing statements in order to spin the argument off in a different direction to avoid admission of incorrect assumption (see the later comments on King Solomon's temple in that thread - I am very clear as to what I mean, and Ottava is interpreting it wrongly in order to show that i suposedly dson't know what I'm talking about). Until he is willing to admit that Freemasonry is not an area in which he is a qualified scholar and conducts himself as a willing student who will accept the opinions of others more experienced than he I can't help him. MSJapan (talk) 01:52, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, that does sound familiar, in several different ways. --Kim Bruning (talk) 01:57, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

+ One question, could you point out where in his recent edits he has made those baseless statements on reliability of sources? I'm no expert in the field myself, so that would be very useful information for me. --Kim Bruning (talk) 02:02, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

+ I just asked on his talk page, he is getting the Phoenix Lodge 30 document (30, not 9, apparently) shipped to him from France. That might take a while. <scratches head>. He's definitely going out of his way to look up the sources you're asking for in more detail. Do you think that the sources won't tell him the whole story? --Kim Bruning (talk) 02:44, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, read the thread; it's pretty obvious. Whenever I disprove something, he spins the argument in a new direction so that what ever I said about one thing is "wrong" in whatever new context Ottava makes up. Fundamentally, though, the baseless statement is Smart's status as a Freemason, and as a corollaey, his authorsdhip of A Defence of Freemasonry. Out of the seven sources Ottava provides (three of which are from the one scholar who blatantly asserts Smart's Masonic ties in the late 1960s despite admitting he gets all his Masonic info from a secondary and fanciful source (Mackey's Lexicon of Freemasonry) and the subsequent research by Rose in 2005), not one has any proof of Smart's membership. Without proof, a statement that smart is a Mason is baseless. Not one source asserts him as the author of Defence of Freemasonry, or asserts that the book was noteworthy (which was in fact the starting point of the whole debacle). The only Google hit out of the top 50 for "Christopher Smart" and "famous Freemason" that is relevant is the WP article, despite the hundreds of "famous freemason" pages out there. Conversely, Googling Robert Burns and "Freemason" has plenty of relevant GHits (WP article is 4) and his membership info is available (1781 in Tarbolton). So Ottava's claim of "loss of records" because of the time is baseless. He also claims Phoenix Lodge is the authority on British Freemasonry. Kim Bruning says the material is coming from France. Wouldn't Quatuor Coronati Lodge in the UGLE building, who has been publishing peer-reviewed transactions for 120 years, be a much better source for British Freemasonry? I posit Phoenix is an authority because it supports Ottava's viewpoint, not because he knows any better. That's the problem, really; he doesn't know any better, and acts as if he does.

This is why Ottava repeatedly asks for evidence (see his talk page for further developments as per the thread noted above), I give it to him, and all of a sudden, that wasn't what we were talking about. AGF is gone, and I do not support an unblock, because his attitude indicates that he is going to go right back to putting what he thinks things say in the articles. I'd note that John Carter replied to Talk:A Song to David#What Rose States supporting my assertion that Ottava is interpreting sources rather than stating their content. I'm wasting a lot of time dealing with tactics I've dealt with before from people unwilling to admit their lack of knowledge. Ottava shows no willingness to see anything but that which he believes, despite having no training or experience in the field of scholarly Masonic research. MSJapan (talk) 03:15, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Is the Quatuor Coronati Lodge the source where he should be getting Masonic Records 1716-1886? --Kim Bruning (talk) 03:19, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm talking about overall quality of research. The only Phoenix Lodge I know of that does research is not the one Ottava is talking about, which is why I'm skeptical as to where the material is actually from. A lot of people write things about Masonry; they aren't always accurate. QC, however, requires a minimum of a Master's degree in a field to submit papers (so one demonstrates knowledge of how to research); a lodge, even a Lodge of Research, generally will take whatever is sent in, unless a read-through shows blatant errors. Another problem is where Ottava's sources are getting their Masonic info, which is apparently out of thin air. In order to avoid addressing this, Ottava keeps changing the subject parameters. MSJapan (talk) 03:28, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

You mean Phoenix #30 does not do research? <scratches head>... <checks website>. [1] "La Loge Phoenix est dédiée à la recherche..." . Am I totally confused somehow? I don't know much about the other sources though, like I said, that's not my area of expertise. --Kim Bruning (talk) 03:49, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion shows what i think is wrong with this block. There's a content dispute, and the place to resolve it is not here, and the way to resolve it is not by banning of the the people in the dispute for the same kind of receptive intricate and specialized argument that the other sides seems also to be using. I can see why people are frustrated at it, but the usual way to deal with this is to find a relatively neutral wording that leaves the question open--we arent trying to establish the historical truth here. To get involved in this sort of a situation over the exact status of someone two centuries ago who seems to have said he was a Mason but where there are no records to prove it is a little ridiculous here. This is a place for the specialized academic journals, where this sort of dispute can be carried on for years in the customary fashion there--and where almost certainly neither party will convince the other in the end, either. Time to end this here, and let someone help them find a suitable wording; out job is to tell them both to cool it.

If no one has anything else relevant to say, I'll unblock tomorrow. DGG (talk) 04:17, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Nothing else, DGG. But I'm wondering if you might have overlooked this brief post in the reams of writing above. Or if it's irrelevant in your book. Geogre and John Carter have recently been in violent conflict, from which they have just emerged, battle-scarred and gingerly patted-down by many concerned users. Ottava Rima is himself in conflict with John Carter (what? really?)[2], and in the diffs I've cited above, Ottava attempts to get on John's good side by a string of nasty insults against Geogre. All happening in this very thread. I don't care so much about the insults—non-touchy Geogre clearly shrugged them off—but as for Ottava's cynical attempt to deflect John Carter's annoyance and get his support via a re-ignition of the John-Geogre flame-out... heck, if that's not disruption, I must not understand the word. That was one of the main reasons I offered to shorten Moreschi's block, rather than to unblock outright. Bishonen | talk 08:16, 22 June 2008 (UTC).

I have no issues with that, by the look of things. Did you manage to talk with Moreschi? If so, don't forget to link or summarize here! :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 04:23, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

No, what has happened is that the thing has gotten so far afield that nobody knows what the hell it is anymore. It started out as a request for assessment - the project said no, Ottava refused to drop it. On further investigation, the sources Ottava claimed asserted not only Smart's membership as a Mason but his authorship of a supposedly notable book didn't support the statements made with anywhere near the degree of certainty claimed. Ottava refused to accept this, and proceeded to editwar over this until he was blocked. Now we've gone from questions of Smart's Masonic membership to somehow talking about the historical veracity of the Freemasons having built King Solomon's Temple because David was connected to the Freemasons (which has on truth to it whatsoever, and no reputable researcher believes this, though it is stated in the article on A song to David and was also in the main Christopher Smart article until I removed it to Talk as redundant). This is not just a content dispute - this is an editor refusing to admit interpretation of sources, an editor ignoring sources that don't fit their viewpoint, taking material in sources out of context, claiming sources are things they are not, and spinning arguments in circles to get that angle where he's right and everyone else is wrong. This has nothing to do with content; it is in fact a pattern of remorseless tendentious editing. Once Ottava is unblocked, we're going to go through the same thing all over again because he's not going to leave it alone. MSJapan (talk) 05:10, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll leave my above comment, but I've got a better idea. Kim Bruning suggested on his talk page that he try to mediate the issue. I'll accept that, but I'm also certain that if Ottava is free to edit, he will simply revert everything back to the way he wants it to be, and try to do everything I've been pointing out to him should not be done for various reasons. There is at least one clear instance of source interpretation already, so I have concerns over the accuracy of those reversions. Therefore, if Ottava is to be unblocked, I would suggest he be topic banned from Christopher Smart and all related articles until the issue is resolved. MSJapan (talk) 05:21, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

There is a point on either side of this debate (and often, I'd agree with Moreschi's line of thought on this). However, in this particular case, I think more benefits would be gained if Bishonen's approach is enforced, in combination with continued counselling where necessary (rather than with an editing restriction). If there is doubt that 1 week is not sufficient, then I don't see the harm in both sides coming to a common point of 2 weeks - no conditions. If he gets it, then the matter ends there. If he doesn't, and continues, then a month. How's that? Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:11, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not convinced such a topic ban would be a net positive for wikipedia at the moment. I'll go talk with MSJapan a little bit. --Kim Bruning (talk) 17:05, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

• I don't really know how these discussions work, but I would like to point out that after the previous ANI thread that I brought against Ottava Rima, he returned just as invicil and unproductive after his self-imposed wikibreak (see my above post to Kim Bruning regarding a recent post to my talk page). What makes this time different? Why has he learned to work with others now? Awadewit (talk) 18:41, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

A few comments: although I have no opinion on the various proposals regarding Ottava Rima, Awadewit is a very modest individual who seldom visits noticeboards. Awadewit spends most of her time creating encyclopedic content and is one of the site's best editors: 22 featured articles, 25 items of featured content overall--making her one of Wikipedia's 10 most prolific contributors of featured articles. Now first I'll repost a couple of Ottava Rima's recent comments toward her, then I'll provide a little more background.

Next time you pretend to know something that you don't actually know, don't make it so obvious. Here is one easy to find source among hundred: source. "In 1744 John Newbery wrote A Little Pretty Pocket Book for children." You are wrong because you edit without researching first. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:00, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[3]

You edited warred. You didn't research. You are wrong and still wrong. Macmillian's encyclopedia gives him full credit. You haven't clue. You can stop the harassment now, or I can file a civility complaint against you. Wikipedia is not a battleground or a place to push your unfounded unresearched POV. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:12, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[4]

I have Awadewit's bona fides and she is in fact a doctoral candidate in English literature. Her specialty is eighteenth century children's literature and she is well into her dissertation. She is very familiar not only with the source Ottava Rima cites, but with the scholarly controversy surrounding it. Such matters may be content disputes, but Ottava's aggressive and belligerent conduct is not. He halted editorial discussion with hasty accusations before she could begin to discuss the sources in actual depth.

Although there is some merit to the view that unblock offers should not be extended for the purpose of humiliating an editor, it is usually necessary to request that they alter their conduct in specific ways. It does no one any favors to pretend otherwise: in the absence of a firm message that certain conduct is inappropriate, the editor is likely to repeat it--placing further strains upon the patience of other Wikipedians, necessating more administrative involvement, and humiliating himself or herself far more thoroughly than a simple mea culpa would have done. Durova^Charge! 19:17, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate all the careful comments. This is the first time since I've ever been here that I've disagreed with Durova after she's explained something. We do not normally work by giving indef blocks and asking for signs of repentance. We work by giving short blocks, increasing, and hoping for improvement. the reason blocks are short is because it is less likely to arouse resentment. I've been looking at the comments of all the editors involved, and they all of t hem are prone to excessive insistence on their own way or looking at even the smallest details in an article. WP can't work that way, because we have no way to arbitrate such discussions--our methods for resolving content disputes rely on compromise. By this point any reasonable editors would have reached one We do not have to find the truth of whether CS was a Mason--we just have to report the various possibilities and the evidence for them. The various academic qualifications are irrelevant--this is resembling the style of a dispute at Citizendium. This is like trial by combat--the result is going to be with the side that misbehaves the least. At the moment on this OR is probably the most egregious offender--but that does not mean he's wrong. As we are not equipped to judge it, we compromise. If we're going to effectively ban people for this sort of behavior, there are other people I'd have in mind here as well. Perhaps after all there might be some point to the sourcing adjucation board proposed by arbcom. Any definitive quasi-judicial process is better than this sort of nonsense.

This has gone on too long and I am moving to closure. I never proposed to remove the block, just to shorten it. I'm reducing it to 38 hours from now, making 96 hours total, twice the previous block, and Im protecting the CS article for 48 hours additional , to permit a peaceful discussion on the talk page about a compromise, with everyone recognizing it as a compromise, not an attempt to find the truth. I suppose it's fair to tell people that i get quite annoyed when an attempt of mine to make a compromise peace is unsuccessful. DGG (talk) 01:27, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

And if compromise is reached earlier, I'll unprotect the article then. DGG (talk) 03:35, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

DGG, fortunately our record of reasoned agreement remains unbroken. As stated above, I have no opinion about remedies in this case.Except for that slight misreading you remain nearly as brilliant as I. ;) Durova^Charge! 10:39, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

(Break for ANI editing convenience)

competence is required

"Get quite annoyed"? Haha, DGG amusing guy. Bishzilla get quite annoyed when puny users contradict, too (chortle)! As far as I'm concerned, this is a matter of user behaviour, not a content dispute (or even, as it would have to be, a string of content disputes). The discussion looks like it has reached exhaustion point, and we will probably never have consensus as such, but DGG's proposal seems to me to ignore too many things, including all the other ANI threads on Ottava Rima, which I have linked to. Ottava has been handled with extreme kid gloves so far. I was amazed to see, for instance, that the behaviour detailed here didn't get him a block at all. You may think Ottava's block log is hefty, but it's actually minimal, in relation to his behaviour. I disagree that academic qualifications are irrelevant, and I disagree that topic experts must invariably "compromise" with anybody who insists on it (sorry if I'm misreading, but that's how I read DGG's post above). Such compromise does not make for quality, in my opinion. However. I agree that it's time for closure, and I have no desire to start a round of argufication, as I feel all possible details and takes on this have already been mooted at least once in this thread (and for fear of annoying scary little user, tee hee). Instead I offer a counter-suggestion for your consideration: I propose changing Moreschi's indefinite block to one week. That seems to me a suitable length on several counts, and a suitable escalation from Ottava's hitherto longest block (which was three days, as you will see if you study Ruylong's resetting of his latest block). I believe that if Awadewit's worry (which comes from hard-bought experience[5]) that he will return "just as invicil and unproductive" as he did last time comes true, then some more escalation will be appropriate. Highly productive and skilled editors like Awadewit and MSJapan shouldn't have to fend off the kind of attacks on articles and users that Ottava makes all the time. Perhaps on some level he means well, but that doesn't stop it from being an absurd situation. Competence is required as well. To me it seems clear that it's not what Kim Bruning calls "a net positive for wikipedia",[6] to have those high-powered editors pestered and harassed, those articles messed up, and a trail of destruction burned across talkpages and discussion boards. This is no longer a newbie. Try to find anybody (besides Ottava Rima himself) who thinks his editing amounts to more or other than messing up articles—anybody who thinks he's a productive editor who improves articles. "Merely look at the editors that have complimented my work" writes Ottava above—way, way above—but these exhortations to look never come with any diffs, so it's a little difficult. It's time blocks started to escalate in earnest. The project is too unready to defend itself against outrageous behaviour. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and the purpose of it is to produce high-quality articles. To disrupt the production of them counteracts that purpose. Bishonen | talk 07:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC).

P.S. Oops. I see DGG has already implemented his proposal, without giving people a realistic chance to comment on it. That seems a little disproportionate, in relation to how long it took to post it (while standing mute to me.[7]). I'm starting to wonder if the warning against "annoying" him was actually serious. Well, I won't wheel war with DGG, as he does with Moreschi. I really wanted closure, but also a chance for people in all timezones to see my proposal. I feel my hand is being forced, though, and I therefore I will, 12 hours from now, extend the block to one week (including time already served), unless I see some cogent arguments against it here. Please comment below! Bishonen | talk 07:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC).

"Highly productive and skilled editors like Awadewit and MSJapan shouldn't have to fend off the kind of attacks on articles and users that Ottava makes all the time." Good point. You also have to consider all the highly productive and skilled editors who never even start working on Wikipedia because they don't want the hassle they would have to deal with due to our obsession with giving problem users seemingly infinite chances. I know several such people myself. --Folantin (talk) 09:07, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Bish, the only difference between your proposal and mine is that i changed it to 4 days and you suggested 7 -- hardly significant. Since I had originally suggested just limiting it to time served, I thought going to 4 a reasonable reaction to peoples suggestions. I consider there were sufficient objections in addition to me to Moreschi's original indefinite block that a change to a fixed one was justified, but I consider your extending it to 1 week will be just making a point, . Why you think it will be better than reverting me and blocking for the additional 3 days i do not understand. Wait until there is some further misbehavior and then do the full week as the usual double. (I have been assured the original rather picayune issue is being compromised). FWIW, there have been similar problems between other editors mentioned here. OR is the most difficult illustration of stubborn editing, but not the only one-- we seem to tolerate those who are more established. Personally, I think equal or more stringent requirements for good manners should apply to the people who have the greater experience here. DGG (talk) 13:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the difference between your proposal and mine is significant because mine means a good deal more escalation next time, and I really, really do think it's time for that. Of course the dream is that no further blocks will be needed at all! But if there is no improvement after this block, then I don't want just the one-week block next time. That, really, is the big difference between your 4 days and my 7 days, to my mind. And did you see where I pointed out that his latest block was actually 3 days? Isn't escalating from 3 to 4 for unrepentant and repeated major disruption (which is what we're dealing with, in my opinion, and I too have looked) a little ridiculous? I think so. Let the wiki defend itself, and let's defend the experts and the content contributors, per Folantin. Bishonen | talk 14:33, 23 June 2008 (UTC).

I have much more to say, but I will only say that I agree with Bishonen. This is not a content dispute. It is administrators dealing with disruption and a disruptive user, a time sink, an incorrigible individual. A week is proper. It is also the regular interval of block escalation. Geogre (talk) 14:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

My apologies

I will first apologize to MSJapan for not contacting him directly sooner and trying to work out language with him. Instead of trying to understand each other, I sought to try and further promote my original philosophical argument and lost touch of the potential greater contribution that could result from having his expertise in expanding/correcting/reworking sections, especially when the resources of both sides are shared.

Second, I will apologize to Moreschi and DGG for dragging them both further through this than is really deserved on my behalf. Moreschi does not know me, and it was rude to impose on him this confusion, clutter, and complication. DGG does know me, and it was rude for me to impose on him having to deal with my actions.

Thirdly, I will apologize to Awadewit for further bringing up more of the previous AN/I and my recent stubborness towards her person over sources. Instead of emphasizing verifiability over truth, I attacked a doctoral student's greatest sensitivity. Instead of welcoming such an eager person in my field as herself, I bullied her. As I am working on Christopher Smart and his works, she is working on Mary Shelley and hers, and it is not to the benefit of the encyclopedia to interrupt her precious time.

Fourthly, I apologize to the community for wasting time. Yes, I shrugged it off in that wonderful poem above, because I didn't think it would snowball like this. Unfortunately it did. The only one to blaim for this is myself. Without my individuality being in the picture, this probably would not have ended up in the way it has.

Sincerely - Ottava Rima (talk) 17:15, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

for the record, though I know OR (on-wiki only, as we share an interest in the 18th century--and I know some of the others here similarly), I consider myself a rather strong critic of his editing style & have had no hesitation in saying so privately as well as publicly--just as I now notice some infelicities in the apology. Though, as Bish has noticed, I tend to word things as understatements, he can be under no delusion of how I would react if his pattern did not change. But now I feel I must abstain from further involvement. If Bish really still wants to make the term longer, or if anyone wants to make it shorter, I have no objections. I still consider it a little odd to have a long discussion about whether a block should be 4 days, or 7--surely thats within individual variation; as everyone here seems to have agreed, 4 (or 7) vs indefinite--that warrants discussion. I'm not about to come here every time I think a block is a few days too long or too short--if admins started doing that we'd have even less time for actual mop work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DGG (talk • contribs)

I mean the apology wholeheartedly. If anyone does not believe this, please ask Kim. Kim and I never agree on any issue, but I am sure he can vouche for my sincerity. However, if he says otherwise, then, well, it certainly sucks to be me. (I really doubt that would be the case!) Ottava Rima (talk) 19:25, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for that, and best wishes. Durova^Charge! 21:02, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Apparent delete / undelete bug

• I have been working on the page Roman Catholic Diocese of Antwerp. I want to delete these edits:
  • 19:39, 30 April 2008 Benkenobi18 (49 bytes) (moved Roman Catholic Diocese of Antwerp to Roman Catholic Diocese of Antwerpen)
  • 07:17, 19 December 2007 Benkenobi18 (47 bytes) (moved Diocese of Antwerp to Roman Catholic Diocese of Antwerp over redirect)

by deleting the page, and then undeleting all edits except 5 edits (these 2, and 3 already deleted) which are redirects belonging to another page's history. But despite several times deleting, then at the undelete checking all edits except these 5 redirect edits, the above two unwanted redirect edits keep coming back along with the wanted edits. What is happening? Anthony Appleyard (talk) 08:41, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Help:Null edit, could this be the problem? Daniel (talk) 14:29, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• Wow, I hate to ask but what are you attempting to do? That deletion log is a real mess! —Wknight94 (talk) 14:32, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
• Like I said above, I tried several times to get rid of those two abovementioned redirect edits by deleting everything and then undeleting everything else, but every time those 2 redirect edits came back in the undelete even though I carefully unchecked them in the undelete check list. Finally I realized that it was a bug and not a result of me mistyping or mismousing. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 17:16, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
• I just tried it again, and the 2 redirect edits came back in the undelete although I unchecked them so that they would not come back in the undelete. But the 3 other redirect edits which were deleted before, do not come back in the undelete when I do not check them for undeletion. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 19:15, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Move logs are not edits; you cannot delete them from the edit history, as they are part of the page log. They are only displayed in the edit history for convenience. Your attempt to clean up the edit history only made it worse by polluting the page log. — Edokter • Talk • 15:15, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

• • • On a separate issue, why the need to delete those edits anyway? Admins shouldn't be going around willy-nilly deleting edits from articles for no reason. What difference does the old moves make anyways? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:11, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

User:The Transhumanist

...is attempting to change every "List of basic X topics" to "Topical outline of X" (e.g. Topical outline of Italy). The latter is bad English and suggests "X in current affairs". He's met opposition to this at List of basic opera topics from me and some other users. Rather than discussing the arguments on the talk page, he's resorted to very pointy tagging of the page with a load of "citation needed" requests. He claims to have won consensus for his moves at WP:VP but I can only see three votes (including his) in favour at the discussion there. I don't think such "consensus" can violate good English usage. To be honest, I'm not sure we even need to discuss these lists on a Wiki-wide basis. --Folantin (talk) 14:55, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I think I agree with The Transhumanist that "Topical outline" reads better, but I do concur that his 'consensus' for it seems to be rather small and underpublicised for a change that affects so many articles. ~ mazca ^talk 15:07, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

"Topical outline" is ambiguous jargon. --Folantin (talk) 15:13, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed that "Topical outline" is suboptimum phrasing. "Outline of foo-related topics" or something similar would probably be preferable. John Carter (talk) 15:18, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

That was my original proposal, but a compromise was made at the Village Pump. I would prefer it be changed to "outline of". The Transhumanist    15:19, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Though the meaning of the term "topical outline" is well established. Google it, and you'll see what I mean. The Transhumanist    15:22, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

My concerns over the application of the term "basic" in the article are legitimate. I've been on the other end of the debate for almost two years, and so I understand Folantin's frustration. "Basic" is not defensible by Wikipedia policy, because who is to say what is basic and what is not? Sourcing all the items on those lists is impractical. Also, the pages were designed as a set, and having this particular page named differently disrupts the set. The consensus in the Village Pump discussion referred to above was that "List of basic" should be changed. "Topical outline" was the best we've come up with so far in a good faith effort to improve that set of pages. If a better title can be found, I'm all for it. One alternative is to source the items in the articles as to their "basicness" to bring them in line with WP:VER and WP:OR in relation to the term "basic". The Transhumanist    15:20, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

There were no problems on that specific page until you came along and decided that everybody had to dance to your tune. If you object to "basic" (and I still see that as a violation of WP:POINT then we change the name to "List of opera topics". --Folantin (talk) 15:28, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

"List of opera topics" is comprehensive in scope, and would be subject to adding every topic related to opera on Wikipedia. Once the article was expanded beyond the scope of those in the other set, a new one would be created for the other set. The Transhumanist    15:33, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, there aren't that many "topic" articles about opera on Wikipedia, so I don't see much of a problem there. --Folantin (talk) 15:36, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I just realized we're arguing over nothing. We both agree "Outline of" would be an acceptable title. Right? I wouldn't object to it being named to that. Would renaming the article "Outline of opera" be acceptable to you? The Transhumanist    15:43, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Not really. As Conti says below, there's no difference in "neutrality" between "List of basic X topics" and "Outline of X". How do you define your "outline"? --Folantin (talk) 15:47, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

In the same way you define "article" or "list". An outline is just a form of article, in the same way that a list is a form of article. The Transhumanist    22:45, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Er, why do we need sources to list "basic" topics, while we don't need any sources to list "topical outlines"? That doesn't really make any sense to me. --Conti|✉ 15:41, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

"Outline" is just a format designation, in the same way that "article" is a format designation. All articles have formats (i.e., orders of presentation), and these do not require sources. That is, how an article is arranged isn't sourced. If it is, that's a content policy I missed. The Transhumanist    22:20, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

No it isn't. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, "outline" means "verbal description of essential parts only". You still have to define what's "essential" there. The selection problem remains. --Folantin (talk) 10:33, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Transhumanist, please don't make wide-scale changes without consensus first. Discuss first to avoid the follow-on drama. Thanks, D.M.N. (talk) 15:30, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Over the years, the only one defending "basic" in the title was me. The opposition to it accumulated to the point I could no longer defend the titles. It was argued that I was defying consensus. So I proposed the change at the Village Pump, and it is pretty clear from that discussion that "List of basic" was inadequate. The rename has gone over pretty well, with opposition limited to a single page. That's not bad. You can't please all of the people all of the time, but in this instance, we came pretty close. The Transhumanist    15:41, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• Um, would it be possible to not have references in the header sections for List of basic opera topics? There must be a better way of doing it than that. As for the title, I suggest List of opera topics. It does not need to be comprehensive - that is what WP:SUMMARY is for. Carcharoth (talk) 16:43, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Yes, they look awful, but someone in the opera project decided to add them because today Transhumanist has repeatedly placed over 70 {{Citation needed}} tags on the List of basic opera topics. Like Conti, I question why, when none have appeared on any of the "topical outlines". One could argue that references are needed for the inclusion of particular topics on those too, after all they're still potentially subjective choices. The mass tagging gives the impression of some kind of 'punishment' for not accepting the name change, even if it might not have been intended as such. Also, I can see reasons for removing "basic". But the "topical" adjective is bizarre, ambiguous and misleading. For one thing, why did no one consider the standard English device of a modifying noun, e.g. Topic outline of X. But that's beside the point. How on earth can a decision which affects many, many projects and existing lists and has resulted in the wholesale renaming and redirecting of scores upon scores of pages be based on the votes of 4 people, when none of the relevant projects were even notified of the discussion? Voceditenore (talk) 16:59, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Why not just "outline of x topics" or simply "outline of x" if you have to change it at all? 'Topical outline of' is not how the word 'topical' is usually used, which as people have said above is a word to describe current affairs and so on. Better grammar/a more commonly used phrase, which is what we use for page names on wikipedia, would be 'outline of x topics' or something. Although I don't have an objection to 'basic' being used in article's titles as long as judgement of what is placed there is common sense- it could even be sourced, for instance depending on whether an aspect of a topic is included in a basic textbook. Sticky Parkin 18:14, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

"Topical outline of" is merely what discussion has produced so far. I'm fine with improvements, and prefer "Outline of x", which was the original proposal before the compromise of "topical outline" was arrived at. The Transhumanist    22:04, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

This was discussed over here at the Village Pump. I'm fine with the change, although we need to agree with a standard. I'm fine with Topical outline at this point too, seeing as its an accepted term among professionals. In the future, The Transhumanist should probably do a RFCstyle when embarking on a large change like this. ImpIn | (t - c) 03:20, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the discussion is somewhat off topic here. The question at hand is the editing practices of The Transhumanist not about the rightness or wrongness about the actual name change in itself. I have put a three revert rule warning on The Transhumanist's talk page. As for a rename of the articles, I would suggest that all of the names be changed back to "List of basic .... terms" and a well broadcasted centralized discussion involving the entire wikipedia community organized on the issue. I personally think the word outline does not apply well to many of these articles (in their current form anyway). An outline infers that the there is a discussion or summary covering the main points of a subject. Therefore the terms in an outline would include a basic short definition or summary of each term given. These articles, however, provide no such definitions/summaries but simply list important terms, albight organized into subcatagories of the main subject.Nrswanson (talk) 06:19, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The Transhumanist has single-handedly changed the name of this article to "Outline of opera" in spite of there being no consensus to do so in this discussion. He has not addressed the issues above where several editors have clearly stated that "outline" is no more "neutral" than "basic topics". I moved the page to the more "neutral" "List of opera topics" but he reverted. Either he is interested in enforcing a strict (ridiculously strict, in my opinion) definition of our neutrality policy (as would be suggested by the 70 citation tags he placed on the page) or he isn't. If the latter is the case the page should never have been changed from the self-explanatory "List of basic opera topics" in the first place. --Folantin (talk) 07:55, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

"List of X topics" would seem to be the most obvious way to do this. Some think "basic" and "outline" imply POV-pushing (which seems like a stretch, but whatever) and the term "topical" means "current events", which doesn't seem to fit these lists. "List of X topics" is purely descriptive with no judgment implied that I can see. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 11:00, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

That's right. Once the technical difficulties have been solved, the page will be moved to the very neutral "List of opera topics" and this issue will be over. --Folantin (talk) 11:05, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Well its not quite that simple. What about all the other articles he has changed the names of. He has changed the name on dozens of articles to "Topical outline of...". I think all of those articles should be changed as well.Nrswanson (talk) 11:23, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking specifically about the first example given, about Italy. The editor should not have been making these changes without the kind of discussion that's occurring here. They will have to be moved again, to an appropriate title. If there's already an article there, admin assistance will be required. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 12:11, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

There was this kind of discussion on the Village Pump. The Transhumanist    00:37, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

That discussion only involved three editors. Not exactly representative of the wikipedia community as a whole. It was also not well publicized. And as far I see not all of those editors agreed anyway.Nrswanson (talk) 06:48, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I've done the move to List of opera topics. Afterwards, I think there were some triple redirects to fix, but that's sorted too :) Moreschi (talk) (debate) 13:48, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I've reverted the set of pages back to "List of basic x topics", pending a new proposal. I don't have have the move subpage feature, so would somebody move Portal:Contents/Topical outlines and its subpages back to Portal:Contents/Lists of basic contents, please?

Until the fate of the set is decided by the community, it would probably be best if editors not be allowed to break the set up by renaming them or moving them to another set. Moreschi has moved the list of basic opera topics page to List of opera topics removing it from this set of pages and adding to the Lists of topics set. I request that it be moved back to List of basic opera topics until the community (via the Village Pump, etc.) decides what should be done with the set of "basic topics" pages.

Nrswanson, another participant in this dispute, moved a couple other pages out of the set. I've moved them back (to List of basic aerospace topics and List of basic automation topics, respectively) pending the outcome of this dispute.

Sincerely,

The Transhumanist    00:37, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure the Village pump is the most appropriate place for this discussion. MaybeWikipedia:Centralized discussion would be a better place. Also, notes about this discussion should be put on all related wikiproject talk pages. Which in this case is a lot of projects.Nrswanson (talk) 06:58, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I've reverted the disputed renames, and I hereby withdraw the proposal to rename the set. Ciao. The Transhumanist    10:22, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Significant Contributions

I've spent the past two hours trying to discover this users : Joshii's contributions...

I've found none...

This account I believe is a sock account of a troll or sock puppet... THIS ACCOUNT SIMPLY DELETES.........

THIS USER GIVES VAGUE DESCRIPTIONS OF HIS/HER ACTIONS AND IF QUESTIONED ON HIS/HER ACTIONS REPLIES ? "Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, we would like to remind you not to attack other editors, as you did on User talk:Joshii. Please comment on the contributions and not the contributors. " WHILE GIVING NO EXPLAINATION OR ACCOUNT OF HIS/HER ACTIONS.

This user has made no contributions to wiki, this user just deletes and gives the standard reply above.

I suggest this account should be deleted.--92.234.248.31 (talk) 20:33, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Is this what you're looking for? ——Ryan | t • c 20:37, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Or this? And Joshii did explain his actions. Even if users' accounts were deleted, it would not be because someone disagrees with some of their edits, especially when Joshii has written featured articles and is being considered for adminship. This is not the definition of a sockpuppet, troll or vandal. –thedemonhog talk • edits 20:48, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Joshii can be a lovely contributor, and still sometimes do things that are not ideal, as every person does. The user disliked his use of the word cr*p- and referring to other's edits, such language is undoubtedly bound to not be condusive to mutual respect and collaboration. I consider cr*p to be impolite and it is not appropriate to use on wiki about a real person's edits, no matter what you think of the edits it goes beyond bad manners. Sticky Parkin 22:23, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

In fact, it is a breach of WP:CIVIL the part which goes on about creating an uncivil environment "Judgmental tone in edit summaries ("snipped rambling crap") or talk page posts ("that's the stupidest thing I've ever seen")." No matter whether someone said my account to be deleted or anything I would never respond with such language. Sticky Parkin 22:29, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

In keeping with WP:CIVIL, might you please star out the highly offensive C-word in the above post? Thank you in advance --Badger Drink (talk) 22:24, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

"Star out" the highly offensive C-word? Oh, come on, that's r*d*c*l**s. (Especially since the language contains a C-word that actually is highly offensive—I don't see it in this thread, though.) Bishonen | talk 08:43, 23 June 2008 (UTC).

"Crap" is highly offensive language? Orderinchaos 11:22, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

(No, hun, it's the other C-word that's offensive.) IMO it's offensive all right to call somebody's good-faith edits "crap", but it's not offensive to speak the word on ANI, by way of information. And no matter your sensibilities and local culture in that matter, I consider he "st*r out" business to be at all times ridiculous, because it draws attention to a word rather than hide it. Bishonen | talk 12:46, 23 June 2008 (UTC).

After patiently verifying that Mr Parkin was, in fact, capable of using asteriks, I merely asked him to continue his good-faith effort to keep my poor heart from jumping up in my throat with the twisted tangled twitching throbs of total and absolute revulsion that such combinations of letters inspire within my person. Instead of a swift edit and a heartfelt apology, I find myself attacked! Then again, I guess I shouldn't be surprised with this downright cr*ss turn of events, considering that editors on this site work for a dank den of puerile perversion which dedicates entire articles to the abominable actions and detestable deeds of notorious, unapologetic infant-eaters. =( --Badger Drink (talk) 16:22, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Diligent Terrier is abusing his editor power, corrupting mKR (programming language)

Despite my repeated attempts to reason with him, Diligent Terrier is making edits which result in nonsense being displayed for the article mKR (programming language). He has reverted twice, in the process destroying other edits of mine which he never even looked at. His last reversion was this morning, even though he is supposed to be "retired" and have no official function at Wikipedia. Rhmccullough (talk) 15:48, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

User:Diligent Terrier's latest edit seems perfectly in keeping with Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Can you explain what's wrong with it? (It would be a content dispute, except that DT doesn't seem to be talking.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:17, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

1. DT's reasons for his edits are always very vague. He never discusses them with me, or explains anything. 2. DT keeps changing "Major features" section -- a. It refers to examples - they don't exist. b. The title "Major features" (made up by DT) does not make sense. 3. When he reverts "Major features", he is deleting the real "Major features" section which I defined. Why? no reason. Does he even know it exists? I don't know. He has never commented on it at all. 4. FYI - DT's first interaction with me was to delete several sections, which I had added on the recommendation of a previous editor. Again - no explanation, no discussion. His "philosophy" -- whatever it is, contradicts that of the previous editor. But he won't discuss it. Rhmccullough (talk) 16:52, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

You've cited no evidence of Diligent Terrier breaking any of Wikipedia's rules, and there's no evidence that this is anything other than a content dispute. It's not administrators' place to solve such disputes - please use the dispute resolution process. While "not talking" is perhaps unfortunate, there's no rule that compels anyone to do so, so this isn't an admin matter. -- 87.114.35.233 (talk) 16:56, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I should have been more explicit about one thing. You asked me what's wrong with his last edit. In the literal sense, I don't know. I don't understand it. I don't know why he did it. In the philosophical sense, what's wrong is that he is hacking up the mKR (programming language) article -- I have my doubts as to whether I will be proud of it when he's through with it. Rhmccullough (talk) 17:06, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

One last question. You did not comment on the fact that DT is "retired". Is that not an issue at all? Rhmccullough (talk) 17:09, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Users can pretend to be retired all they want; it doesn't mean a thing. This might not be much of a case for admin attention, but I do see at least some edits by Diligent Terrier which are questionable. I don't see where he's commented on the talk page at all, but he's made substantial edits which there is apparently disagreement about. I recommend everyone go slow and explain their positions rather than just reverting. Friday (talk) 17:17, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Whoops- for some reason my browser "find" function isn't seeing his edits. Friday (talk) 17:21, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

(My edit got lost because of logout)I would love to go slow and explain. But DT continues to make drastic edits with no warning and no explanation. And he will never talk to me about his edits. Rhmccullough (talk) 17:37, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Did you see the talk on "underconstruction"? I put up "underconstruction" flags so I could finish my edit. DT ignored the flags and reverted all my changes into oblivion. Rhmccullough (talk) 17:57, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

That "last edit" of DT's is correct. He removed unsourced information and large swathes of example code, which is not appropriate for a wikipedia article. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree with that. He didn't give me any chance to respond to whatever might have been unsourced. Rhmccullough (talk) 18:07, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Seems to be some WP:OWN issues here from Rhmccullough (imo of course).Darkson (BOOM! An interception!) 18:08, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

At any rate, this is a matter for the talk page, not the admin noticeboard. Please continue there. I think Rhmccullough has been reasonable though, and has been making extensive use of the talk page to work out disagreements. Friday (talk) 18:10, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Conflict of interest anyone? Did anyone else notice who the creator of the language is? Metros (talk) 18:11, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Sigh. Yes, he's in a unique position to be a subject matter expert. I don't see that he's been particularly promotional. We should welcome actual qualified academics and cut them a bit of slack while they're learning how things go here. Friday (talk) 18:16, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Sure, I have a vested interest, but I'm not trying to break any rules. And I can be objective and neutral. I don't know what the rules are for example code. DT didn't tell me anything. I would like to know the rules. Rhmccullough (talk) 18:20, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Well I think going around calling it "user-friendly" is a bit opinionated without a source or anything to back that up. To Rhmccullough, looking at a few things you put in, I think you should avoid adding the Ayn Rand as an influence and a "see also." For one, there doesn't appear to be a reason why she counts as an influence (sure she's probably been a personal influence to you, but there's no evidence of that except if we talked to you, you see what I'm trying to say?). Additionally, the influence part appears to be geared towards what other languages it was built on. Just an outside opinion. Metros (talk) 18:27, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Brought up on COIN, to discuss the possible WP:OWN issue. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:29, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Please please please do not try to chase off academics for daring to discuss their own work. Wikipedia needs more academics, not less. Friday (talk) 18:33, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

No one (especially me) is trying to "chase off" Rhmccullough. The issue is that the user appears to not understand some of our policies, so I'm trying to find others who can help explain it. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 15:06, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm continuing to get locked out because of edit conflicts. Can I have the floor for a minute? Rhmccullough (talk) 18:40, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

|This why Rand is an influence. Her position on definitions and context is unique. There are statements in her book which map directly into statement in the mKR language. Rhmccullough (talk) 18:42, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

re user-friendly -- in my naive viewpoint, it is obvious because mKR is so much like English. I do not know what anyone expects in the way of references. Rhmccullough (talk) 18:45, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I yield the floor. Comments, anyone? Rhmccullough (talk) 18:46, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Since no one is talking, I'll make one further remark. All of Rand's discussion of concept formation can be easily expressed in the mKR language. Rhmccullough (talk) 18:52, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

People keep telling me I'm not allowed to say such things. Catch 22. Rhmccullough (talk) 18:56, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Is DT even aware of this conversation? When you start a post about someone on ANI, it is usually nice to let them know. J.delanoy^gabs_adds 19:15, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

This article recently went through an AfD, the result, with very few votes, being "no-consensus". There don't seem to be any significant verifiable references, let alone references to reliable sources. One reference is an e-mail address. Two are to private e-mails. Eight are to the web site of the article creator. None are clickable links. There's currently a WP:V problem, a WP:OWN problem, a WP:SOFT notability problem, and there may be a WP:FRINGE problem and a WP:VAIN problem. "mKR" was previously inserted into Wictionary, but deleted from there. (16:47, 12 June 2008 Conrad.Irwin (Talk | contribs) deleted "mKR" ‎ (Not dictionary material, please see WT:CFI)) This article could use some attention from editors other than its creator. If the references don't improve soon, it's probably worth sending to AfD again. --John Nagle (talk) 19:19, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

1. Every user has "editor power" under this definition.
2. DT removed a self-reference, made some rearrangements and removed stuff which may have been unencyclopaedic per WP:NOTGUIDE - much of this would be quite easily displayable on a webpage which the article could then link to. I don't see any problems with these edits, although most likely compromise between the two editors would produce the best outcome.
3. I don't think there is a COI issue here, COI doesn't mean an editor can't edit a topic they have an arguably vested interest in, it merely means they have to take extra care in doing so. Orderinchaos 11:28, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Rhmccullough, it's not that you can't say such things, it's that you have no verifiable sources to back up what you're saying. We can't just take your word for it that Ayn Rand is relevant. I understand this can be confusing, but Wikipedia is based on the idea that anyone can reference statements in an article to make sure they're true. Email cannot be referenced, personal memory or opinion cannot be referenced. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 15:04, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

The real problem is notability. I've been searching, and I can't find any non-trivial references to this software other than those created by the editor of the article. It's in a few lists, and it's on some of those lists because its developer put it there. There's no article in a refereed publication, or a review of it as a software product. It's not even getting blog mentions. A paper [8] appears to have been submitted to the 2006 conference of the Florida Artificial Intelligence Reseach Society, but not accepted. [9]. I'm not seeing notability here. What I'm seeing is WP:Original research. --John Nagle (talk) 15:59, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

A long story

This whole story started when User:Jack forbes filed a sockpuppetry report against User:Fone4My. Until then Jack had been a productive and active Wikipedian who hadn't ever (to my knowledge) been involved in a (major) dispute. As soon as he filed the report User:Fone4My admitted using an IP but only due to becoming logged out (albeit logging in and out serveral times in a matter of minutes). Jack forbes disputed this citing a number of diffs where Fone4my had referred to the IP in the third person. Jack also cited diffs where Fone's IP asked someone to make an edit, and with his actual account he made this edit. User:Alison kindly confirmed that the IP was indeed Fone4my. A non admin closed the report saying "it appears that Fonez4mii did nothing wrong and that Jack Forbes was a little too eager in suspecting him of ulterior motives". In his closing words the user claimed not to have read all the evidence and only to have read part of the sock puppetry discussion. Jack forbes, enraged at the decision decided to retire from Wikipedia but not before leaving a somewhat controversial message containing the following quote "next time you want to win an argument or besmirch someones name, use a sockpuppet, then when you are brought to account for it confess, pretend you did not mean it, despite all the evidence which won't be read anyway!". Thus the case was closed. A few editors expressed their unhappiness with the closing comments of the sockpuppetry report. Jack forbes later returned once more to threaten Fone4my physically and verbally. He was later issued a last warning by an administrator. Since then Fone4my has filed a sockpuppetry report against Jack forbes (checkuser pending). In my opinion it would be a good idea for an administrator to re-close the Fone4my sockpuppetry report after having read all the evidence and having checked all the diffs, that's all I ask. Hopefully we can then put this whole dispute to rest. Thank you so much! --Cameron (T|C) 17:05, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, we need closure. GoodDay (talk) 17:15, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that would be helpful. May I also add that the reason I logged in and out was to get to my IP talkpage so that I could continue the conversation that started there with GoodDay. I made no attempt to use my IP to avoid a block/ban, avoid 3RR, or inflate a vote or poll. --fone4me 18:40, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

User:Jehochman overruled the close. --Cameron* 15:37, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I acknowledge my error in closing this case without a full understanding of the evidence. The criticism of my action is justified, though perhaps not in such strong language as Jack forbes expressed. For a further explanation of my thought process, please see User talk:Jehochman.

I will leave an apology on User talk:Jack forbes for my mistaken closure. I hope that will put the matter to rest.

I would kindly ask the community to look upon this situation as something similar to an AFD close overruled at DRV. I made a mistake, and I apologize for that, and I hope there will be no long-term ill effects. Yechiel (Shalom) 22:45, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

IP Editor Vandalism? Not Sure

92.8.139.32 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) I wasn't sure whether this warrants a vandalism report per se but the template is handy for the tools it brings. I originally posted this on the Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism for advice and having contacted an admin who responded have posted it here. There is an IP editor, using a variety of IP addresses has edited articles related to British personalities and removed the term British and relabelled them all as English (Larry Lamb (actor), Joanna Page, James Thornton (actor), Bruce Mackinnon). The latter struck me as strange being a Scottish surname (and we Scots do object to being labelled as English).

This IP editor first came to my attention when I noticed an edit to a date page on my watch list, I then check his other contributions. I've not reverted all his changes, just those that weren't supported by citations. As soon as I've reverted, he immediately undoes those changes and has used a variety of IP addresses (dynamic IP address?). I'm not going to edit war over something so trivial, particularly as I'm not 100% sure his contributions are definitely vandalism. Having tried to explain my reasons for reverting, and issuing 4 content edit warnings it would appear the guy isn't listening.

I originally simply asked for advice but since then the same IP editor has followed me onto a friend's talk page and Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism. Not sure why, though I have an inkling who this is, but they seem to be wikistalking. I would welcome second opinion and advice, I would also re-iterate I'm not edit warring I quit as soon as it was getting silly. Justin talk 23:22, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

This is a content dispute, not vandalism. You should try dispute resolution to resolve this. Kevin (talk) 04:29, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

No, its not a content dispute, it was trivial and completely irrational behaviour by an IP editor. It can only be a content dispute if two parties are disputing the content and, to be honest, I don't actually have an interest in any of those articles. I only brought it up for advice because of the behaviour of that editor, more so after he started to follow me around wikipedia posting on me and my friends talk page. Seeing as he is so insistent on having things done his way, so be it. I can well do without the hassle. Justin talk 08:06, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Death threat in username?

Probably nothing to be concerned about - but I'm reporting Wetter Roberson Dies At Midnight (talk · contribs) (whom I've just blocked as a username violation) here just in case. Thoughts? --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 00:20, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Not a problem. Apparently he created the account in order to announce that a cartoonist had died on June 6, which seems to have been a hoax -- I guess his username has something to do with that. He was challenged for it on his talk page. The block is appropriate but I doubt we need to worry about death threats. — Dan | talk 01:37, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I just noticed this. Oddly enough, if it is a hoax, we could consider Kurt to be Kurt Cobain singing Heart shaped box, hence Kurt Shaped Box. Just a thought really. — _Maggot^Syn 19:32, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I so misread that. :/ — _Maggot^Syn 19:34, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Gratuitously long block by User:Neil

Resolved

 – Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:10, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Neil (talk · contribs) has, without warning, blocked Alextrevelian 006 (talk · contribs) for one month after he restored what Neil believes to be a BLP violation.[10] Could another administrator please review this? --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 01:49, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

• Neil has clearly explained why the editor was blocked. The editor may make an unblock request, but other than that, I don't see any need to change this remedy. I think a week-long block, maybe 2 would've been sufficient, but it really doesn't matter - BLP violations are taken seriously. Ncmvocalist (talk) 02:16, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I assume Neil thought there was a connection between Alextrevelian 006 and 71.195.135.161 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) - an IP that was also adding the same image - but it doesn't seem so clear-cut. The two seem to have very different editing patterns until this image thing. I'd vote to unblock entirely, esp. since there was zero discussion or warning. In his block message, Neil makes reference to discussion at Talk:Twink (gay slang) but that discussion shows Neil in the minority, esp. in regards to his immediate blocks. (BTW, I have notified Neil of this thread - let's not forget that important step folks!) —Wknight94 (talk) 02:34, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmm...I thought they must've been the same if they're edit-warring over it - I dunno.

Ordinarily, warnings should come before a block and I'd have supported an unblock on those grounds, however, BLP violations are an exception to this rule - emergency measures may be used and counselling can be given immediately after. In this sense, I don't support an unblock at all. Neil seems to have acted as an administrator on this - not as an editor, and it's not a matter of majority or minority, (although, I'd have preferred if Neil took the action under the new ArbCom BLP-wide remedy). Plus, the page was protected beforehand, and upon unprotection, the blocked editor made the edit. That's not on. At most, I could support a reduction in the duration of the block, but beyond that.... Ncmvocalist (talk) 02:48, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

What on earth? This user has been editing in apparently good standing since 2005, and is suddenly blocked without any warnings for a full month because they just happened to make one edit Neil didn't approve of? – Luna Santin (talk) 04:19, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree, and I am going to unblock the user immediately, this is an egregious AGF violation. After discussion with the user, this is clearly not a situation where a block was warranted. Prodego ^talk 04:26, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment I've started a thread Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons#BLP needs clear images statements to get the ball rolling on adding some language to WP:BLP. The policy was cited but doesn't explain why it would apply to people in images although that may be obvious to experienced users. Banjeboi 04:33, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Well I´m unblocked finally, and thinking how to expose my arguments about a issue so small. Even when I think I´m still right and the image can be used, I´ll try to expose my arguments there. For the moment, thanks for your comments, Luna for those kind words and, of course, Prodego for unblocking me. Oh, and btw, that IP is in North America and I´m in South America. --ometzit<col> (talk) 04:51, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

If the recent Arbcom decision at Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Footnoted_quotes/Proposed_decision#Special_enforcement_on_biographies_of_living_persons is to be considered general policy, blocking should have not taken place until after a warning, and any blocking action should have been logged at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Special enforcement log. That's not what happened. --John Nagle (talk) 06:15, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

• • No, it wasn't a block under that decision - when drafting this as proposal at workshop, I myself insisted that warnings must be made first beforehand, except in emergencies.
  • If Neil had no evidence of sockpuppetry of the other already warned user in making the block, I'm also baffled by this (I'd assumed he did). But as noted, the unblock request was made and that was handled well. Meanwhile, Neil needs to explain the methodology behind this block. Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:06, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Explanation

Apologies for the delay in responding - I was away for most of the weekend. The sequence of events:

1. I see an image - Image:SantaRave.jpg - being used on Twink (gay slang).
2. I click on the image, and see it's a picture someone has taken from flickr, of a presumably living person. The person has not identified themselves as a "twink".
3. I remove the image, citing WP:BLP ([11])
4. I state on the talk page (Talk:Twink (gay slang)) "Do you think someone would like to find out an image of them is being used without their permission to illustrate a gay slang term? WP:BLP applies; do not restore it." ([12])
5. Two days later, an IP (71.195.135.161 (talk · contribs)) reverts to reinclude the image ([13]).
6. I re-remove the image ([14]) and semiprotect the article.
7. A very basic bit of detective work ([15]) shows it's the IP of Allstarecho (talk · contribs), who has an extensive block log.
8. Based on the violation of BLP despite a clear warning in both edit-summary and on the talk page not to reinsert the image, and on Allstarecho's prior block history, I block the IP for a month. I note this on the IP's talk page. ([16])
9. The month-long block for the IP is endorsed by Jpgordon ([17]), Blueboy96 ([18]), and Gwernol ([19]).
10. I also put an additional note on the article's talk page, stating an IP reverted and has been blocked for a month, and not to push me on this ([20]).
11. Alextrevelian 006 (talk · contribs) makes his first edit for six days, reverting to reinclude the image. ([21])
12. I block Alextrevelian for the same period of time as the IP (a month), and explain why on his talk page ([22]).

The block was harsh but warranted. It was nothing to do with believing Alextrevelian was a sockpuppet of any other user - for the record, I don't believe he is. But adding that photo to the article was akin to adding a Flickr image of a black man to Nigger, or of a Jewish man to Kike. Consider how you would feel if an image someone had taken of you (perhaps without your knowledge) and put on Flickr, suddenly appeared on a Wikipedia article about a perjorative term.

Given the discussion clearly visible in both the edit summaries of the article, and on the article talk page, it was a very stupid reversion to make. Following the subsequent discussion above, I have no problem with Alextrevelian being unblocked, and Benjiboi has done some good work in finding a suitable image of a self-identified "twink" to incorporate into the article. I would also note that the IP block took place prior to the inception of the BLP special enforcement, so couldn't have used it even if I had wanted. I thought the rule was to clamp down much harder on BLP violations, but will consider the length of such blocks more carefully in future. Neıl 龱 09:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate what you're trying to do here, but the 71.195.135.161/Allstarecho block is very different from this one. As you mentioned, you had no reason to believe that this was a sock of ASE, and Alextrevelian was not warned about this in the slightest. A revert with a stern warning would be defensible, but a block out of the blue (any block at all, let alone a month-long one) was clearly unwarranted. Please don't block constructive contributors again in this manner. HiDrNick! 11:33, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

A block was harsh, but the revert Alextrevelian made was very, very silly (to be clear: I'm not calling the contributor silly, merely the edit). It would have warranted a stern warning and a revert if there hadn't already been a user blocked over this and repeated warnings in both the edit summaries and on the talk page. I do accept I was probably overharsh going with a month, though. Neıl 龱 12:53, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I object strongly to the claim that "adding that photo to the article was akin to adding a Flickr image of a black man to [I won't type this word], or of a Jewish man to [or this one either]" - there is nothing pejorative about the term twink - unless it has suddenly become pejorative to describe someone as attractive and young. DuncanHill (talk) 11:43, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

"Attractive" to homosexual men. You left that part out. A random picture like that, in that context, practically begs for a lawsuit. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 12:05, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

(ec)The only thing I feel Neil stumbled on is the lack of warning, and possibly assuming sockpuppetry without proper evidence. However, I'm somewhat appalled at the lack of real-world consideration in the discussion here. Neil makes some very sensible points here. Everyone can go spout AGF all they want, but AGFhas to have a practical, real meaning to be worthwhile. While the immediate block may not have been warranted, how exactly is someone supposed to see good faith when an editor makes their first edit in a week to add a picture of a living person into an article about a term for homosexuals? Neil's stern comparisons to the similarity with other derogatory terms is accurate. This thread did part of the job, in identifying a too-quick block and undoing, but it failed on the other. Such editing behavior, even if in a single edit, should really be taken much more seriously here. Warnings are neccesary, but at the same time, that doesn't mean every editor gets a chance to make a horrible edit and re add that picture (or similar such pictures) without recourse. Random flickr pics can NOT be added to articles such as this and should always be removed without prejudice, and the person adding should get an immediate final warning. BITE and AGF don't apply, we are talking real word here. Gwynand | Talk•Contribs 11:55, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

It is ludicrous to compare the word "twink" (a compliment) with the hate-language mentioned above. It is also plain wrong to say that "twink" is a "term for homosexuals". It is a word used by gay men and others to describe a certain type of attractive young men. It does not make any implications about the subject's sexual orientation. DuncanHill (talk) 11:59, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Why is Twink (gay slang) in Category:Pejorative terms for people, then? And why does the article say "The term can be used in a derogatory and pejorative manner" (my emphasis)? Duncan, please don't project your point of view and claim it as fact. There are many people who could be offended to be referred to as a twink, and unless a photograph is clearly of someone who has self-identified as a twink (such as Brent Corrigan, whose image is now on the article), it must not be on the article. Neıl 龱 12:04, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I seriously doubt that anyone would ever be as offended by being called a twink as they would by being called either of the terms you chose to compare it to. DuncanHill (talk) 12:08, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I have added a {{fact}} tag to the unsupported claim in the article about pejorative use. DuncanHill (talk) 12:11, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Semantics. A more gentle example for you, then, relating to a similar LGBT stereotype - should we add a random picture from Flickr of a woman with short hair and a lumberjack shirt to Stone butch? Neıl 龱 12:09, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Not a term I have ever heard before, but the article says the term is descriptive of sexual practices as well as appearance, so not a valid comparison. DuncanHill (talk) 12:12, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

In the real world, very few (if any) straight men would consider being called "attractive to male homosexuals" as being a "compliment". In fact, most would regard it as an extreme insult. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 12:14, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

And in the real world, many people are homophobic bigots. Your point is that we should be thinking of this as if we were homophobic bigots? --NellieBly (talk) 13:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Um... I do - cos its nice to be appreciated (although I am far past the young aspect). If you can't take a compliment on the basis that it is not reciprocated then you deserve to be shunned. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:54, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) Duncan, if you can't understand why adding a random image garnered from Flickr (or anywhere else) to Twink (gay slang) is unacceptable, then I can't (and don't want to) reason with you. Neıl 龱 12:16, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

And if you don't understand why claiming that "twink" is in any way comparable to "nigger" or "kike" as an epithet is profoundly offensive on many levels then it is unlikely that you have anything to say that would be of value to me. Two words with a long history of profoundly hate-filled use, and one used as a compliment - your comparison was and is ludicrous, offensive, and worthless. You will note, I hope (assuming you have actually read my posts), that nowhere have I objected to the removal of the image, or the blocks you made - only to the comparison you chose to make of one word to two others. DuncanHill (talk) 12:23, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Duncan, you have me at a loss for words. I don't know your age, or what part of the world you are from, but where I'm from, you don't go around calling people Twinks. Whether you think people should or shouldn't be offended by it based on its supposed meaning is irrelevant. You're being a little short sighted on this issue. Gwynand | Talk•Contribs 12:27, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

38, from the UK - it's on my userpage. DuncanHill (talk) 12:31, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Neil's comparison is valid, at least as regards the "N-word". The issue is that gays might see "twink" as a compliment and straights almost certainly would see it as an insult. Therefore, it qualifies as a pejorative term, even if not everyone considers it to be. Just the other day, I heard one black man call another by the N-word. They were friends, so it was just a casual greeting. If a stranger, especially a white one, had called him that, he likely would have deserved a thrashing. Just because a term is OK in a certain context does not override the fact that it is also a pejorative term. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 12:29, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

What I'm seeing here is the argument that the target of a term "shouldn't be offended". I've heard that argument many times elsewhere, one obvious example being the plethora of American Indian references in sports, where some white guy will say that Indians who object to team names like "Washington Redskins" are "too sensitive". Telling someone they "shouldn't be offended" is fascistic. You don't have the right to tell someone else what they "should" or "should not" think and feel. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 12:39, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Duncan has one possible point, though he may not be aware of having made it. The article says "can be used as pejorative". His argument is that it's not "used" pejoratively. Maybe he's technically right. Maybe it should read "can be perceived as pejorative". About that, there would be no doubt. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 12:40, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

"Kike" and "nigger" are the language of the oppressors - that is where they originate, and their usage is overwhelmingly negative and associated with hate. The N-word does have a non-pejorative usage among some (which Baseball Bugs has noted above) - what I am objecting to, and find offensive, is the misuse of these words in the description of another word which shares none of their history and none of their connotations of prejudice, oppression and genocide. Now if Neil had compared them to "fag" or "pouf" or "nancy boy" he might have a point - but he didn't. He could have, and did, justify the removal and blocks by reference to policy and precedent, unfortunately he went further, much too far. DuncanHill (talk) 12:56, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

You are right in that they were extreme examples. I apologise for any offence caused - none was intended. Neıl 龱 13:27, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Given there was no hint of support in any independent, reliable and verifiable source that the subject of the photo has ever publicly self-identified with the term and/or how the article defines it, this blatantly broke the bounds of WP:BLP because the word can be taken as controversial or negative and moreover is not self-evident from the image (such as the caption shirtless young man wearing a santa hat would be). Gwen Gale (talk) 12:34, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Quite - and no objection from me to the removal or the blocks. DuncanHill (talk) 12:59, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

So I've given my explanation (above), as asked - are the people who requested one satisfied? Is there anything left to clear up? Neıl 龱 13:47, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm fine if we're agreed that this was not (quite) a situation for a warning-less block and that the block was too long. In fact, rather than block every person who re-added the image, the article should have been fully protected. —Wknight94 (talk) 13:54, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

The consensus here is clear that the block was too long; none of us are perfect, and I'll certainly bear this in mind and will be less harsh when making any such blocks in future. I have received an email from Alextrevelian which indicates he doesn't actually believe adding the photo was wrong, which is a concern, but I certainly won't take any action again on this article again, or on this user again. Neıl 龱 14:13, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Many a straight man would find "twink" and "fag" equally offensive. And lifting the block was OK. If the user tries to post the photo again, bring the hammer down. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 13:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, to clarify and summarize some things:

• As I've pointed out earlier, although the block duration was indeed questionable, I cannot criticize the block itself in the given circumstances. If there is a reasonable chance a person may be offended by the insertion or inclusion of content (even images) concerning themselves in a certain way, then one needs to think twice before re-including or re-inserting it, particularly after a reasonable objection has been noted. In effect, editors need to take care too. I'd explained the rationale for this a bit more in response to Benjiboi's proposal at Wikipedia_talk:Biographies_of_living_persons#BLP_needs_clear_images_statements.
• Yes, users (admins specifically) do need to clamp down harder on BLP violations, but this does not preclude the need for care to be taken in BLP policy enforcement, even under the special remedy. This was done when necessarily and effectively blocking the IP, but not so much on the editor.
• The editor doesn't seem to have done anything wrong until this point. The maximum that could be considered is probably a week, but less would also be considered as effective. Alternatively, full protection is another tool to consider using in such circumstances, however short it may be.
• In the end the situation has been handled reasonably well, including the unblock request. The last line of Neil's explantion was admirable - this is how administrators are expected to handle criticism of their actions (i.e. constructively).
• Overall, this matter is resolved for now. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:08, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree this seems to be resolved. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:25, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. I'm not convinced that (1) the SantaRave image is a BLP violation and (2) that the word Twink is pejorative. — Becksguy (talk) 14:15, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

What none of us knows at all is what the subject of the picture would think about it. Until or if that can be determined, it is abusive of that individual's rights to use his picture in that context. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:19, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Even so, you cannot argue the letter of the policy alone - greater care needs to be taken in the spirit of the policy. Note: I have said neither (1) or (2) is true or false in my summary. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:23, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Our speculations about what the subject might or might not think don't matter at all. The caption was a wholly unsourced description of a living person. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:25, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

And the editor gets a cigar. There is no citable evidence that this picture qualifies as an illustration of the term. Any such attribution to that picture is original research on the part of anyone that posts it. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:28, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the matter of Twink being pejorative or not can be taken up somewhere else - perhaps Talk:Twink (gay slang). We're all in agreement about the unblocking and there's even a better image in its place. Let's wrap this up. —Wknight94 (talk) 14:27, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Obviously I'm fine with the unblocking of both users. If that's the primary subject of this thread, then lets move both the BLP and pejorative discussions (since they are intertwined) to the Twink talk page. — Becksguy (talk) 14:54, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

It's a wrap. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Misuse of Twinkle

Are these kinds of edit summaries and reverts a misuse of Twinkle and/or generally uncivil?

• 01:13, 23 June 2008
• 01:48, 23 June 2008

Generally, I wouldn't characterize my two posts as "vandalism". This seems a bit hostile, no? -- Levine2112 ^discuss 01:59, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

:The only thing I see as hostile is your offensive edit summary in the previous edit [23]. Glass houses, and all that. Horologium (talk) 02:04, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Strike my last, and I apologize for my failure to assume good faith. I am aware of the long-running dispute between the two users, and I jumped to conclusions. Horologium (talk) 02:15, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate that Horologium, and please know this wasn't about our long-running dispute. It is a honest question about the tool. I once lost my Twinkle privileges momentarily for doing similar actions with it and I just want to know for sure what is allowed and what is not allowed. Again, thanks. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 04:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

What edit summary? Please explain. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 02:10, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Just noting to Horologium - that's the title of the section he was posting his new message under, not his edit summary. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 02:12, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

And Levine2112 takes any opportunity to mess with SA that he can. I think it's time to move on.OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 02:09, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

While Levine2112's comments on ScienceApologist's talk page shouldn't be characterized as vandalism, they certainly serve no purpose other than to annoy ScienceApologist. Given the bad blood between SA and Levine (including bad conduct on both their parts) Levine would have to be naive indeed to expect his remarks to be welcomed on SA's talk page. Given that SA has already been blocked, I think Levine ought to keep his 'bird in the hand' and quit while he's ahead. I think most admins here are sick and tired of seeing them go at it – here or in any other forum – and I am inclined to block Levine2112 for disruptive editing if he shows up on SA's talk page again. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:12, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd appreciate so good faith here. My intention was not to annoy, but rather to inform. It's a pretty cut and dry notification. I think it is simply good manners to notify someone that you have posted a report about them. This is not about any "bird in the hand". This is about a question about possible misuse of the Twinkle tool. Why you are turning this into something more is beyond me. I would have appreciated just a simple 'yes' (it is a misuse) or 'no' (it isn't a misuse). -- Levine2112 ^discuss 04:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

You know, the word "troll" is thrown around these parts just as gratutiously as Alanis misused the I-word, but this really is a textbook example of trolling, and I'm surprised Mr. Levine2112 is allowed to get away with this particular brand of incredible immaturity. Mr. Levine2112, in the one-in-a-billion off-chance that you weren't just trying to provoke Mr. ScienceApologist, you would be well-advised to familiarize yourself with the age-old adage: "If you can't take the heat, get out of the fire" - or, to tone it down in advance of a sanctimonious link to WP:NPA: If you can't stand the sound of breaking glass, stop throwing stones at glass houses. --Badger Drink (talk) 03:25, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I guess it was that one-in-a-billionth chance because notification is all I was trying accomplish (hence the very simple comment). And yes, Alanis completely misused irony in here song, but then again, maybe that's the irony of it all. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 04:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

While it is, in fact, ironic, it is also undoubtedly an irony that she was not aware of at the time she wrote her dreary little teenaged number - and just as undoubtedly an irony that she'd respond to with a well-rehearsed enigmatic chuckle were it brought up in a Rolling Stone interview. And, to address the main topic, maybe Hans Reiser just decided his car needed to be washed out of simple, innocent hygenic concerns. --Badger Drink (talk) 05:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Levine, note that there are individuals here that are commenting on your complaint who can genuinely be considered "uninvolved." You do look for any opportunity to tweak SA's nose, then you come running over here to complain that he considered something you were doing as vandalism. Do you think we're all stupid? OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 04:55, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

No, of course not. I just think you misunderstand. This posting here was not a complaint. If it were it would be misplaced. Wikiquette is the place for such behavioral complaints. Here I am posing a question about the usage of Twinkle - one to which I think you would be most interested in reading a response from uninvolved users. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 05:05, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Since you already know the answer to your question and you aren't seeking any action to be taken, there is no point in bringing it here. --B (talk) 05:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

The user used Twinkle to revert an edit and incidentally identified the edit as vandalism in an automated comment. I can see no disruption or abuse that could possibly be prevented by removing Twinkle. I must say that I think this is a rather strange choice of forum for this question. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 20:18, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

As a side note, I have done that accidentally myself - if you are looking at the current diff, the Twinkle "Rollback vandal" button is directly above the Mediawiki "Undo" button. It is really easy if you don't train yourself not to, to accidentally hit "rollback vandal" when you are going for the "undo" link that lets you leave an edit summary. --B (talk) 21:42, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Advice on blocking?

User:Jm0371 (talk) has repeatedly uploaded lots of copyvio images, claiming them to be his/her own work, many of which have been discovered and deleted just in the last week. This isn't the first time that this has happened with this user; if you look at Jm's talk page history, it's full of image copyvio warnings, which Jm then proceeded to delete. Although Jm hasn't edited in a couple of weeks, this appears to be his/her usual pattern: edit several times on one day, do nothing for several days, edit some more on another day, etc., so there's no reason to believe that this lack of recent editing means that Jm isn't planning to continue editing. User:Ruhrfisch (talk) and I, both admins, have been considering at least a longterm block for the copyvios. Neither of us is extremely active in administrator-type actions, and we'd like advice: is this a good idea? Nyttend (talk) 03:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Nyttend's description of our thoughts on this. Would a six month or even longer block be in order here? This is one of those users whose work damages the encyclopedia much more than it helps it. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:25, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Before considering a block, what about telling the user the consequences of continuing. I have left a clear warning on the users talk page. Perhaps we should see what effect that has? Kevin (talk) 03:37, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I agree it is always better to warn first, but I also note that 1) this user has deleted all previous warnings and questions about image sources with no replies (not even in the edit summaries) and 2) the images are often cleaned up in such a way that makes it less apparent that they are copyvios. For example, in the Lake County, Ohio courthouse photo, branches were removed except on a statue and the dome. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:49, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Persistent copyright violations are a perfectly fair reason for long-term or even indefinite blocking. Putting the project at legal risk is just as disruptive and potentially damaging as regular vandalism. --jonny-mt 04:47, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

More so, I would argue. — CharlotteWebb 17:56, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

←According to the upload logs, this user has marked most of his uploads as "self-made" (listing himself as the "author" using three tildes "~~~"), but several of them have been deleted as improper license or blatant copyright infringement (often with a source url establishing this): [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39]. However his last edit was on June 5 when he removed comment from his talk page (not a templated warning, but some no-nonsense advice in plain english) regarding this [40].

Blocking him now would probably be moot as I doubt he will return to this account. However at this point I do recommend deleting all of the remaining uploads which he has marked "self-made" as such assertions from him have thus far proven false whenever examined. — CharlotteWebb 17:56, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I've noticed that User:Jm0371 has been uploading aerial images on airports in Ohio such as the one on Mansfield Lahm Regional Airport Image:MansfieldAirport.png and claiming them as his/her own work, but they appear to had been taken from existing imagery such as on Google Earth. — OHWiki (talk) 19:50, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

The shade of the coloration seems a little different, plus only Google Maps has the streets named, but the patterns of the greenery, and the positions of 3 airplanes in front of the hangar, in the two photos, appear to be identical, so I'm inclined to think they are from the same source. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 20:10, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Do we really have to delete all of his uploads? Image:LCK0608.png was deleted as a copyvio of this page, but in truth that page simply copies a public-domain FAA diagram, which can be gotten here. It's not self made, of course, but it's PD anyway. Replace the license for some of these, to be sure, but I don't think that we need to delete everything that is marked as self-made. Nyttend (talk) 20:17, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

How to respond to threat of blocking, how to get more time to receive info about an article?

I really want to get this question answered because after this is over, I want to write about petroleu, Shell Oil, and other topics.

I have asked for assistance in writing an article. An administrator threatens to block me if I create an article. Here's the history of the matter as objectively as I can report it.

EPISODE 1
I created an article on American author Sam Swope. According to sources, it looks like he won two awards. The article was deleted.

I researched the criteria and found that if an author wins an award, that could mean he is notable. So I recreated the article and mentioned the award. I think it was speedily deleted. I don't agree with the deletion, but I'm willing to drop it.

After it's settled that opponents don't care if an award establishes an author's notability, I let it go.

EPISODE 2
Joey Didier was probably the most notarious kidnapping/murder/male rape in Northern Illinois (people from Northern Illinois consider the north part of the state outside of Chicago to be that area, Chicagoland is the Chicago area). In 1975, the brutal kidnapping, rape, and murder terrorized the community for about 3 weeks. People still remember it today. Even though the city has 150,000 people, over 54,000 people (!) wrote protests or signed petitions in 1999 opposing parole. The killer has had parole denied 17 times. Each time, 10,000 or 50,000 people oppose it. It's probably the most notable murder in the city between 20,000 B.C. and 2008 A.D.

EPISODE 2, ACT 2
I mistakenly wrote an article about Joey Didier. Then someone told me that I should not write on the person but on the murder. The Joey Didier article was deleted. I am an easy to get along person. I can listen and I can live with it. To comply, I created a new article Murder of Joseph Didier. Little did I know that the person who wanted Sam Swope deleted has followed me and is very opposed to the Joey Didier article. I believe he thinks I am defying him and that he is mad that I created the "murder of .." article.

EPISODE 3
I clumsily wrote the Murder of Joseph Didier article. There was a copyright violation alleged even though I quoted the source. So it was deleted. I am not stupid, I learn. I learned not to use so much text even if I note the source.

EPISODE 4
I have totally re-written the murder article. Those people are still mad at me so instead of fighting, I try to find ways to improve the article and explain the notability. I have written for some help and I can further establish notability in about a week or so. This article is now re-nominated for AFD.

I know that the opponents seem to have a hot temper so I ask for temporary suspension of the AFD (even offering to blank the article but keeping it in the history) for a week or so while I wait to receive some information in the mail.

In return, I am threatened by Realkyhick that he will block me or get someone to do it. "re-create the article, you will be blatantly violating Wikipedia policy and will be blocked. " Realkyhick also warns me not to do housekeeping on my own user talk page and say's I'm a vandal for doing some housekeeping of my own user talk page.

For those who know the area in 1975, Didier is truly a notable topic. By trying to help Wikipedia, I get met with threats. Any suggestions on suspending the AFD for a week or so. This is a suggestion instead of possibly re-creating the article in a week or two (which will make a few people really angry). Note that the original AFD of the murder article did have some support about it's notability. About 4 or so people have noted it.

Summary: How to respond to threats? How to have some time to work on an article that I know further information is coming without having to possibly recreate an article and really cause anger?

Links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Murder_of_Joseph_Didier_%282nd_nomination%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Murder_of_Joseph_Didier

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Joseph_Didier

Presumptive (talk) 03:56, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

You should try to take all this a lot less personally. The articles have been deleted or nominated for deletion because they do not meet the notability criteria, not because someone doesn't like you. As for the block warning, blocking is a possible consequence of recreating deleted material. Surely you would not prefer to be blocked without knowing that what you did could lead to that? Kevin (talk) 03:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Edits like this and much else from the history of your talk pages shows a slightly more tendentious conversation than you represent above. I suggest you provide some of the requested references next time around. Learn from the situation and move forward. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 04:13, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I see you support Realkyhick. An administrator like him should not resort to threats and hostility. If additional time to recreat articles isn't granted (even with the offer of blanking the article page for a week or two), then Wikipedia suffers. Presumptive (talk) 04:39, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

After a couple hours delay, you should probably plan on making a followup edit suggesting that there's some sort of "star chamber" of abusive admins that back each other up no matter what. Plans within plans and whatnot. An occasional "WAKE UP SHEEPLE!" is appreciated for artistic merit. Oooooorrrrr... you could take this as a learning experience about avoiding massive copyvio (some previous articles were copy/paste jobs from other websites, apparently) and not being ingenuous about deleting the messages from specific people trying to get you back to the straight and narrow. So, become a productive member and move forward, or drop into the self destructive "Wikipedia will destroy itself if it doesn't allow MY ARTICLE" spiral. I hope you choose the former. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 04:55, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I am frankly shocked at your attitude especially since you are an administrator and representative of Wikipedia. A more polite answer could be "The model Wikipedia administrator is polite and encourages others to help Wikipedia expand. If such was not the case, I apologize on behalf of the Wikipedia community. Sometimes people who aren't familiar with subjects don't realize the notability. Perhaps you should fully gather all the information possible and after a serious effort (which should be at least a month), then run it by someone." Rather, you are rude and sarcastic. God help Wikipedia. Presumptive (talk) 05:10, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

In general, we don't apologize for following our own rules. shoy 12:45, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Presumptive, do you feel you should receive an apology when none is warranted? I read whatshisnames messages to you, even the ones you deleted from your talk page, and they seemed quite reasonable and polite. So I ask again, do you think you should get an apology even when it's not appropriate? On a practical matter, I can't apologize "on behalf of the Wikipedia community" even if it WAS warranted. I'm not an elected spokesman, I'm just another janitor with a mop. If a fake apology will make you feel better because you need the validation, than by all means, here you go: "I'm sorry you feel bad, and I hope you feel better." It doesn't cost me anything, and if you'd like to hang a victory sign on it and then go on to be a happy fellow editor, then go for it. If not, then consider apologizing to the happyhick guy for acting so silly and move on. Either way, I hope you transition out of "BLOOD, BLOOD, BLOOD" mode. If there's anything I can do to help, please let me know. If you'd like to transfer your anger to me, then go for it, I can help you w/ any RFC or sanction against me if it'll help. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 14:35, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually looking at the sources (!) rather than just assuming, this editor has a point that his articles were perhaps notable [41] [42] . He's mainly looking for advice about how to make an article that lives, as well as being unavoidably miffed at the person who deleted/put them up for AfD (a lot of us have been there. This is not really a matter for AN/I but there's no reason not to support editors making articles which have potential to be notable, and who will probably go on to write notable ones. Presumptive- I wonder if you might like to consider WP:ADOPT, to help with your article writing? Sticky Parkin 19:39, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

As hard as it is to believe, the results are a mixture of results about the murders of 2 Joseph Didiers. The other Didier was apparently from the Denver area and was also killed in 1975. Also, this [43] is an interesting piece of canvassing, presumably from User:Presumptive, although he states in his ad that it isn't. DCEdwards¹⁹⁶⁶ 20:39, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

The Sam thingy author has some sources too. But looking at P's talk page there do seem to be various issues. I wish he would consider adoption, others hve suggested it on his page. Sticky Parkin 21:14, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

• Hi, it's the mean wascally User:Realkyhick here. First of all, I'm not an admin. (I've been asked to apply for adminship by several editors before, but situations like this are one of several reasons why I have no burning desire for this.) Frankly, I've had quite enough of User:Presumptive, and I think it is high time he was blocked due to the totality of his misconduct. As User:DCEdwards1966 pointed out, Presumptive has tried to rally support for this article with this online classified ad. This is about as bizarre and blatant a violation of WP:CANVASS as I have ever seen. Even stranger was another editor using this ad as an example that this murder was notable, just because he ran a classified ad to rally support. I have tried in every meaningful, civilized way possible to explain Wikipedia standards in this matter to Presumptive, but he and a handful of others are obviously on a crusade to have this murder memorialized on Wikipedia, no matter what. The whole sorry mess is documented at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Murder of Joseph Didier (2nd nomination). I am at a loss as to how to deal with this disruptive user any longer. Again, I think a temporary block is entirely in order here, as he has violated a number of Wikipedia policies, though you'd have to check the history of his talk page as he has removed the warning messages. (I wonder why?) - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 21:29, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

This dude is straight up weird. He's somehow obssessed with this murder and going as far as to put out classified adds about it? Seems a little strange to me. Also, I've never seen "anally raped" in an article before. Usually it's just put as "raped". It's like the dude feels the need to describe it in detail.

Personally I agree with Hick, block the dude. Something just isn't right there. Not a personal attack. Just an opinion, when someone's spare time is basically spent editing a page about a murder 20 years ago and argueing about why it's important there is something very wrong with that type of individual. Wow.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seattlehawk94 (talk • contribs) 02:37, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

The classified ad merely asked for ideas on how to explain notability. It wasn't canvassing because it didn't tell people to start a letter writing campaign.

The above comment also shows how Seattlehawk94 has no idea about Joey Didier. Nearly every year, the story is brought up again on the news, in the newspaper, on TV, etc. This is not dragging up a 35 year old murder. There have been well over 100 murders in the region since then but none of them has the continued publicity of the Joey Didier murder. I ADMIT THAT MOST MURDERS ARE NOT WIKIPEDIA MATERIAL! (This one is)

Even goggling Joseph Didier or Joey Didier comes up with over a million hits, more than Eve Carson (white college student murdered in 2008), a murder debated on Wikipedia and was kept. This may be because of the regional coverage of Joey Didier every few months. Presumptive (talk) 02:59, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia in the news again

[[44]]

Since this article was linked on Drudge Report, expect a flood of people to any article mentioned in the comments... Jtrainor (talk) 06:15, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

The Signpost's suggestions page is a more appropriate spot for your news, but someone else has already posted it. –thedemonhog talk • edits 06:27, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

As long as wikipedia's wide-open editing policies remain in force, this problem will never go away. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 09:30, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm reminded of what Otter said to Flounder in Animal House, after Flounder lent the fraternity his car, and they trashed it. "Hey, you f***ed up! You trusted us!" That philosophy applies to anything you read on the internet. Wikipedia is nowhere near being the worst offender. But many people cite wikipedia as a source of information, and they have to learn to take it with a grain of salt. Or two or three. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 09:33, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to clog ANI with soap-boxing... but it applies to everything you read everywhere, not just the Internet. Just yesterday, my wife and I got out a book from the library called Brighter Baby. We didn't get very far before we encountered a lot of information that we already knew to be either an urban legend, a misstatement of the research, or an exaggeration of the research (e.g. a single study found a loose correlation between X and Y and speculated that there may be a causal relationship, and the book said "X causes Y! It's totally provened by teh science!"). So of course, this called into question everything else the book had to say. The book did have a references section... which included such scholarly journals as "The Tampa Tribune"! I would go so far as saying that our experience with Wikipedia helped us to very quickly identify the book as quackery and BS, since we are very used to checking sources and viewing everything with skepticism.

Just goes to show that it's not just Wikipedia, and it's not even just teh Interwubz. There is bad information everywhere (in fact, ironically, I once found an urban legend repeated as fact in The Scotsman, the very same news outlet that wrote the article.. hahahaha...) --Jaysweet (talk) 15:40, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

At least you knew who the author was, and that the content wouldn't change every 5 minutes, or disappear. Although I cringe every time I hear an ad say that "scientific studies show..." Yeh, studies conducted by the makers of the product. What a coincidence! Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 19:58, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

As I said elsewhere yesterday, bureaucrats worldwide tend to blame crummy government schools on anything and everything but themselves. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:44, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Española, New Mexico & SP 75.91.175.147

Need page protection on Española, New Mexico and an edit block on 75.91.175.147 (talk · contribs) SP of permma banned user: Diamond Joe Quimby (talk · contribs) ~ WikiDon (talk) 06:54, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

IP Moved to New Mexico, please block IP. ~ WikiDon (talk) 07:01, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Nokia Phones

If you look at Template:Nokia_phones you can find links to what seem to be hundreds of individual articles about specific models of Nokia phones. These are essentially all adverts and last time I checked we're not a product guide or an advertising service for Nokia. Can someone terminate this little lot without delay? Thanks. Exxolon (talk) 07:03, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Um, we can't just go and delete stuff because it might look like an advert. Feel free to start a huge discussion at WP:AFD though, that encompasses all those. I pity the admin who has to close it... Alex Muller 08:14, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Previous AfDs have resulted in redirects to List of Nokia products. Unless any of these articles relate to major ground-breaking products with good third-party sourcing that isn't just press releases or reviews, that's where they should be redirected to per Wikipedia not being a catalogue or directory. Be bold. CopyrightDrone (talk) 08:16, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

It's been discussed before at MfD with a pretty clear consensus to keep. We have templates like this elsewhere, and while the quality of the articles that they link to may be poor, the template itself doesn't really have anything to do with that. From a navigational standpoint, though; very useful and neutral to the fact that a given article is currently a redirect to a list or its own independent article. It's serving its function in the navigation system per CLN, and I don't really see any need for it to go. Celarnor ^{Talk to me} 08:28, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Er - I'm not directly proposing the template be deleted. I want all the rubbish articles it links to deleted. We're not a Nokia product catalogue and shouldn't have articles on every model of phone they've released. Only those articles that meet our notability criteria and can be reliably sourced should have their own articles. Exxolon (talk) 12:40, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Then list them at WP:AFD, {{subst:prod}} them, or redirect them to a list of Nokia products. Stifle (talk) 14:09, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

So now we have phone fancruft. Wikia has a cell phone wiki; can this be sent there? --John Nagle (talk) 21:47, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Scotland (rise now and be a nation) again

Scotland was recently discussed here and ended up being protected for a short period. It looks like the edit-warring may have started up again. Cheers,  This flag once was red  08:31, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Richie Ramone

Can someone keep an eye on this page? there is an obvious conflict of interest here, I have reverted twice (the first one for blantant vandalism) a user claiming to be working with this man's management, to the point of "being paid to be here all night", now I need to leave for work shortly and don't really have time to explain policy or keep track of it in the meantime, something needs to be done, pronto. - Caribbean~H.Q. 09:23, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I reverted potential libel here and left a warning to the user --Enric Naval (talk) 10:59, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Is this joke?

Bringing this matter for the second time. Single purpose account Special:Contributions/Sahyadhri is continuously adding non-RS and unsourced information in The Hindu and Frontline (magazine)‎. He added information not supported by reference. Please see the history of the article The Hindu and Talk:The_Hindu#Inaccurate_edits, the article is currently protected. I have repeatedly told this user to join in Talk:The_Hindu#Inaccurate_edits, but he revert-warred instead of discussion. I have issued this user a warning for addition of unsourced material. Since no administrator is paying any attention to this matter, I am in the middle of a strange situation. My question is if this user again readd the non-RS in the artcile The Hindu after the protection expires, what should I do? Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 12:32, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

The reason you are not seeing a lot of administrator attention here is because this is a very slow-burning edit war. I see Sahyadhri (talk · contribs) only made a few reverts over the course of several weeks, so it is not too difficult to keep that in line. Doesn't mean there isn't an issue to be looked at here, but when we have an edit war that is resulting in several reverts per hour, that tends to take priority ;)

However, looking at Sahyadhri's contribs (thanks for the handy link, by the way!) I agree with you that he/she has been avoiding discussing this on the talk page, and the few comments he/she has made in Talk repeat some line about Wikipedia not being "only for eulogists," which I don't really understand. I have advised Sahyadhri to continue the discussion on the talk page, and warned him/her that even a slow-burning edit war can get someone blocked for WP:3RR if they aren't careful.

Hopefully you can work things out on the talk page. If not, let me know and we can try to get more eyes on the page to establish a consensus. Best of luck! --Jaysweet (talk) 15:19, 23 June 2008 (UTC) Full disclosure: I am not an admin, but I feel I can help out here anyway.

Sahyadhri's edits are in violation of WP:OR, WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:UNDUE, among other things. This user keeps on claiming that Frontline is pro-Communist China and anti-Tibet. Sahyadhri has not provided any reliable sources to back up his claims; instead, he's just linking to Frontline and adding his own personal commentary and analysis of articles publishing in that magazine. He claims his edits are according to Wikipedia's tenets, but nowhere do I see that adding original research and unverified claims is in accordance with policy. This user has been warned multiple times, yet continues to edit war. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 15:38, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I also warned the user, having not seen the previous one. I'll otherwise stay uninvolved in this but still be watching. Cenarium ^Talk 15:49, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I am realizing my initial warning did not address all the issues, and I think your subsequent warning helps to round it out quite a bit. After digging deeper, the editor in question does appear to be very uncooperative, but since his editing pace is relatively slow (three edits every three days, typically) it will be easy to keep up with while we try to get him to collaborate more effectively. --Jaysweet (talk) 15:55, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

User:ParksAreFun is reincarnated banned user

Your attention is requested towards the following diff: <seehistory> There is no reason, with the adminstrative attention on Filll's talk page, that this user remains able to edit for this long. PouponOnToast (talk) 12:38, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Indef blocked. Filll's talk page has over 5000 revisions, so if you (or he) would like those edits removed, they will have to be oversighted. Neıl 龱 12:58, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Follow up to User:Nasrulana case

This is a follow up to this case [[45]]. I made a request on User:FayssalF talk page if he could comment on this incident, and if in his opinion it might be related to Klaksonn case [46]. Soon my edit was removed by newly registred user [47]. I've restored it, but soon it was removed by User:Akiro H again [48]. I would see nothing wrong with that, we could say it was simple mistake by newbie, but now interesting part begins. Comments by AkiroH soon were restored by IP [49] and signed by Akiro minutes later [50]. This IP would fall into the range socks related to Klaksonn case, that were identified by checkuser [51]. Do we have a case here? Please comment. M0RD00R (talk) 15:04, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

User:Fasach Nua

This user has already been discussed at AN here, but no real solutions were found. After continuing the disruptive behaviour, I issued a block (for full details, see this version of user's talk page). The user has since declared in multiple places that this block was based on lies and bad faith. Out of curiosity, I asked the user where exactly I had "lied", and in return I got a fairly civil, if not cryptic response. I replied, and then again got called a troll. This user has unfortunatly learnt nothing from their block, but I have: it appears that critisism towards this editor is often met with acusations of trolling, lying, and buckets of bad faith. This is in addition to the root problems this editor has, namely the constant removal without discussion of images they feel fail NFCC - a perfectly valid cause at first glance, but destructive when you consider that it is often done without discussion, repeatedly (thus violating 3RR), and abusivley (in my case at least). There are two issues here: this editor's behaviour and interpretation of the NFCC rules; and this editor's abbusive response to any challenges. Any help or input from other sysops would be appreciated. _TalkIslander 15:45, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

User notified of this thread here, notice very, very promptly removed here. Without an accusation of trolling, suprisingly enough. _TalkIslander 15:49, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I would add that the user has tended to taken an extremely narrow interpretation of fair use and run with it, IfD'ing a lot of images for removal. He has specifically noted his opinion that essentially, certain types of articles don't deserve images. Were this hyper-deletionist editing behavior to occur in article space, the user's pov edits would likely draw the attention of numerous RfCs, AN/I complaints and resulting blocks. The sheer number of IfDs across a lot of articles allows the user to escape cursory notice, though the user was in fact blocked for this sort of behavior before. Fasach Nua has not learned from it, and continues to edit as before. I affirm Islander's comments that the user seems intent on a razor-thin interpretation of NFCC that consensus has not intended. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 18:15, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I also have to say that FN has repeatedly shown himself to be disruptive despite broadly based condemnation of his approach. His interpretation of the use of non-free images is excessively narrow. He refuses to engage in meaningful dialogue with other editors and will not consistently afford them a fair opportunity to challenge his views in open forum or through established process. There is a clear disdain for other contributors and frequent references to the process of developing concensus as being little more than "mob rule", which is incredibly anti-community. He plays the rules that suit him and ignores the rest. Its appalling to have to watch one petty duel after another and the ongoing assault on other editors views and contributions. Anyone who has to consistenly accuse such a large number of others of trolling, wikistalking, lying, etc. should really be taking a hard look at what it is they are doing. I'm not sure what can be done, but its something that I suspect will be an on-going nuisance, because although its papered over by a veneer of correctness, at its core there is an unhealthy and distasteful well of disregard for others. Wiggy! (talk) 22:39, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I wonder how long it's going to take for him to get banned. I think he's had ample time (six months) to change, and he's not. Sceptre ^(talk) 00:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

User banned for making legal threats evading block

Resolved

Further to the ANI section above [52]. The user has returned as another IP [53]. The talk page of Byzantium (his chief haunt) needs semi-protecting too. --Folantin (talk) 15:58, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

User blocked for 24 hours by Antandrus, talk page semi-protected for a week. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 16:43, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Expand tag on 44kb article

Users Pmanderson and Fnagaton are adding Template:Expand on the article that has 44kb solely based on personal view of Pmanderson that the article doesn't cover the whole story but only half of it. He refused to give sources to back up his claims so far or expand the article himself. They even listed the article on AfD based on the idea that if the article is not covering the whole story it should be erased, therefore annulling the idea of Wikipedia for social expansion of articles. Looking at the Pmanderson talk page I saw that he has a history of disruptive behavior and that he breaks the 3RR to prove a point and so far he has engaged in reverting in this case as well, so I have to ask you for help as I don't have intention to get involved in revert war. --Avala (talk) 16:07, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the Expand tag. If the users in question feel that one side is overrepresented and the other side is underrepresented, the correct tag is {{POV}{, which the article already has. As you say, putting the Expand tag on a 44kb article is ludicrous.

I will keep an eye out for 3RR. Thanks for the heads-up! --Jaysweet (talk) 16:15, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

BTW, I gave you a 3RR warning as well, since you are pushing the limit. Since you have already indicated intention to disengage from the revert war, I don't think it will be a problem. As always, users are free to blank warnings from their talk page once they have read them. No offense intended, just trying to be fair to all :) Thanks for understanding! --Jaysweet (talk) 16:34, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

The fact the article is 44kb is irrelevant, btw. Look more to the completeness of the information in the article and not just a simple count of bytes. (I've not reviewed the subject at hand, so I can't speak to the particular circumstances in this case) ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 20:16, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I might argue that if an article is that big, the proper course of action if it needs more content is to split it into multiple articles. But in any case, I think the removal of the Expand tag actually may help accomplish Pmanderson's goals. His concern is that the article is written from a specific point of view, and does not reflect the entirety of viewpoints. The NPOV tag is really what you want there, not so much the Expand tag (Expand usually indicates, "These are the right topics, but we need more detail.") The article still has Essay and POV tags. :) --Jaysweet (talk) 20:44, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I have opened a new section Serbian-Greek_relations#Other_views so if there are indeed such completely different views on relations between Serbia and Greece as Pmanderson claims he will be able to add them there and break the supposed singular POV of the article. I don't see any need to tag the whole article with POV tag when there are 50+ references solely based on the statement by one user that the article is not reflecting the whole story.--Avala (talk) 21:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

User:DyceBot

My bot was blocked byUser:Rebecca without warning for approved edits supported by policy. The edits were also performed a week ago. I've requested that she unblock it under the condition that I not make the edits she objects to until consensus for policy instituted a year ago is established, again, but apparently she isn't online. I would appreciate it if someone else would unblock it. I have other things I wish to do with it today, and today is my one day off for the foreseeable future that I will have to do it on.--Dycedarg ж 20:26, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, first, I'd say "Bot doing things that it shouldn't be doing" is a terrible block summary. Seriously, people should learn to explain what the hell the problem is. I see from her message that she was against the addition of en-dashes in the article titles. The question is, since there is a dispute at your talk page (even though I agree that a bot enforcing the MOS shouldn't be a problem, especially when approved), do you want it unblocked to continue that activity or unblocked to do other work? I do see that BAG approved it, but I'll leave for further discussion before wheel-warring on this mess. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 20:36, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

As I said, I wouldn't perform the disputed edits until this mess sorts itself out. I have other things I wish to do with it however, and I'd like to do them today.--Dycedarg ж 20:39, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Based on your rationale above (you want to work on it today, Rebecca isn't online, and you promise not to make edits in the area under dispute), I'm unblocking. Please take super extra special care that the bot's edits today aren't remotely contentious, so I don't end up looking stupid. Give me two minutes, and then you should be unblocked. Hopefully this can't possibly be seen as wheel warring; thanks Ricky, for bringing that up and making me nervous! :) --barneca (talk) 20:44, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry, I'm not planning on doing anything controversial. Much of it will probably end up being testing in my sandbox. Anyway, thanks a lot.--Dycedarg ж 20:51, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for unblocking it, Barneca. It's being sorted out now, so that's all fine. Rebecca (talk) 01:54, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

User:Idioot and User:Blogsd

Resolved

 – Both blocked indef --Rodhullandemu 21:14, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

A couple of days ago I reported a problem with editor Blogsd to Wikiquette alerts[54] and then to ANI[55] Jaysweet also posted to ANI regarding the problem at the same time[56].

It appears that Blogsd is back with a sockpuppet called Idioot[57][58]. The new message has the same broken English and the same general verbiage. Blogsd had previously threatened to use sockpuppets to continue his harassment[59]. This has progressed far beyond my ability to solve, and it's clear he's continuing even after he was banned for it once.

Please note that the new harassment includes a threat to rape my mother, which is why this is going to ANI rather than to Wikiquette alerts. Brilliant Pebble (talk) 21:06, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I made a report here to see if it will be feasible to block the IP address if he continues. Normally I wouldn't be so quick to do an RFCU, but given his promise to use socks to harass you, I figured I'd test the waters. --Jaysweet (talk) 21:20, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Involved admin needs uninvolved admin assistance

I am ready to block General Mannino (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), a user that I have been involved with on more than one occasion for personal attacks, harrassment of other users, and disruption. I'd rather someone else make the block because of my involvement. Please review his contributions and take heed of the warnings I've issued. I issued this warning less than 24 hours ago and now this and this is what is pushing me over to the side of blocking. -MBK₀₀₄ 21:10, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Just a note - what a strange exchange. Can't say I'm comfortable blocking because of that last bit, but you can probably find another admin who is less tolerant. Tan | 39 21:16, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I was going to say something similar. Do you have other diffs that are block-worthy? —Wknight94 (talk) 21:19, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Nothing recent, but it does show a similar pattern of behavior. I'll have to go dig. -MBK₀₀₄ 21:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I feel personally threatened by this individual. He is Sicilian and just made this threat: "You don't earn the title "Don", you're no Mafia Boss, so go sleep with the fishes." That was after If you continue to do this I will inform an Admin. Please stop! "From now on, I don't what to hear from you, ever again, and if you message me ever again I will report you for a personal attack of harassment. Got it?, but then he left me message after that point. I didn't leave him a message after that one until he left me some. I really feel upset and threatened by this individual. What can I do? Change my user name? ~ WikiDon (talk) 21:22, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I have blocked the user for a week. Telling another user to go die is wholly inappropriate. I welcome review on the block (as always). If anyone feels it was too harsh or too lenient, we can discuss that (personally I'd say too lenient over too harsh based on that last post). Metros (talk) 21:22, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

This all started over Marlon Brando and the Talk:Marlon Brando talk page. ~ WikiDon (talk) 21:28, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I suspect the whole "sleep with the fishes" thing is more of a dodgy Godfather joke, but it's still an inappropriate one considering the history of negative interactions with WikiDon. The 1-week block sounds about right to me. ~ mazca ^talk 21:30, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Also, this user has a stillborn untranscluded self-nom RFA with quite a history. I don't know if we let these stay or just delete them? -MBK₀₀₄ 21:39, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Generale d'Armata Mannino (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) just made a similar threat on WikiDon's user page. Account blocked for sockpuppetry and implied threats. I endorse the original block and perhaps a change to indef for sockpuppetry (maybe a CheckUser to confirm would be helpful). -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 21:42, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

And a sock puppet: MI General (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) -- (forgot to sign: ~ WikiDon (talk) 21:45, 23 June 2008 (UTC))

Definite sockpuppets - the commonality "Starship Troopers" links them up. Endorse indef blocks all around. Tan | 39 21:48, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

PS: I mean what kind of person nominates themselves, and then uses a sock puppet account to give support? And that is the only support they get? ~ WikiDon (talk) 21:49, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

PPS: Oh I know, the same kind of a person that calls them self "General". Is that a Neapolitan Complex? ~ WikiDon (talk) 21:55, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

That's probably enough taunting, WikiDon. --barneca (talk) 21:59, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Meh. I was just about to say something like a week seemed a little too long for incivility (that wasn't a death threat), and that I wasn't completely impressed with how WikiDon and MBK004 seemed to escalate things (IMHO), when the sockpuppetry account stuff pops up. So, I now endorse the 1 week block I came here to oppose. The RFA should be deleted; it's only purpose is as "evidence" of sockpuppetry, and that's no longer really necessary. I hold out some hope that the one account could be turned from the dark side (they have made some good edits), but they've used up quite a bit of goodwill, so I wouldn't argue too strenuously against upgrading to indef. But my own personal choice would be to see if a week changes his behavior. --barneca (talk) 21:59, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Sigh. [60] Nevermind. Can't have that. --barneca (talk) 22:01, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

The two (known) socks have been indef blocked. Per Barneca's diff above, indef blocking main account (if it hasn't been already). Tan | 39 22:03, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I admit that I haven't behaved exactly how I should have, but after looking at the veiled attacks, I would hope that that this is regarded as an understandable lapse of judgment that everyone has once in a while. -MBK₀₀₄ 22:12, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Check user around?

Has anyone seen a check user around in the last half hour or so? I kind of want a CU to take a look at this. I have this sinking feeling that he actually is telling the truth that this recent one isn't his sockpuppet and that it's another returning vandal...I know that's sort of fishing, but I just have this odd feeling it's not his sockpuppet. Metros (talk) 22:10, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree Metros, and will ask a Checkuser (since I stepped into it and indef blocked the main account). --barneca (talk) 22:13, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but only two seconds before I was going to block the main account, also. The names, the Starship Trooper references, the RFA, common pages edited... WP:DUCK. Tan | 39 22:15, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, no one's disagreeing with you on that one Tanthalas39. He's even admitted to it being his sock. We're concerned about this recent one though. Metros (talk) 22:18, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Meh, User:Generale d'Armata Mannino? One edit that threatens MBK? Quack. Tan | 39 22:20, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

When you do, could you let me know who's looking into it? I'd like to email them. Thanks, Metros (talk) 22:16, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Gah, too many edit conflicts on too many pages; you whippersnappers type faster than I do. Does anyone here do IRC (I wouldn't have a clue)? Might be quicker to find an active CU that way, and Metros could provide his comment in provate once we found one. If I don't hear soon, I'll do the plain vanilla WP:RFCU. And Tan, I think the point is, this last account could, conceivably, have been created to "frame" him. I know, Iknow, but something doesn't sit right with me, now that I blocked indef. --barneca (talk) 22:22, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

It would have been a valid indef block without this sock, Barneca. I wouldn't worry. Tan | 39 22:24, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

In case anyone missed it on the user's talk page, the second-gunman-on-the-grassy-knoll theory, er, I mean, second-sockmaster-on-the-grassy-internet theory, is largely discredited by the account creation time of the 2nd sock: 17 hours before this thread started, and 20 minutes after this edit. I'm with Tan on the WP:DUCK criteria now. --Jaysweet (talk) 22:31, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, in case you were all curious, the thought I had related to the magic bullet (theory)Magic Bullet (appliance) fact that there's another sockpuppeteer out there who likes to harass WikiDon. I thought he possibly leeched onto this to attack WikiDon. But I, personally, don't feel inclined to pursue this further after seeing the creation log (silly metros decided to take a blocked user for his word when he said it was created after the block, what the hell was I thinking with that WP:AGF bologna). Metros (talk) 22:37, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Meanwhile, I'm pulling my hair out with a completely flaky computer crashing on me every ten minutes. I missed all the fun. The RFCU is up now, for anyone who's still curious: Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/General Mannino‎. I personally would still be more comfortable with a CU confirmation. --barneca (talk) 22:42, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

This is choice. IP4240207xx (talk) 22:49, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

A suggestion

Has anyone checked out the article "List of White South Africans"?24.10.111.154 (talk) 22:48, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

What's your suggestion? --Jaysweet (talk) 22:49, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

P.S. For convenience, here is the link: List of White South Africans --Jaysweet (talk) 22:49, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

It's a joke of some kind. A good candidate for AFD. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 23:23, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of White South Africans. Kevin (talk) 23:51, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

User:DBBabyboydavey

Resolved

 – we can live without that type and level of disruption --Rodhullandemu 23:07, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

DBBabyboydavey (talk · contribs) appears to have come to target another editor; see the contribution history. I have warned them but they are continuing. Paul Erik ^{(talk)(contribs)} 23:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

This edit indicates a clear agenda to target another user. Let's see a quick block. --Jaysweet (talk) 23:04, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Blocked indef by User:Rodhullandemu. Thanks! Paul Erik ^{(talk)(contribs)} 23:05, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

User:Joshii

Resolved

User:Joshii has taken it upon himself to repeatedly remove relevant and factually correct information from Scholes, Greater Manchester. Please block him/her from editing for a period. Darkieboy236 (talk) 23:12, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

This report is based on the fact that Darkieboy236 has a POV. He sides with the Association of British Counties and the Friends of Real Lancashire which are there to push a POV that the counties of the UK are wrong. This breaches the guide at WP:UKCOUNTIES and I can't see his edits being in good faith. ^┌_Joshii^┐_└^chat_┘ 23:15, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I am just stating fact. Scholes is historically in Lancashire. Historical means in the past. Joshi, what is your problem with this? It is not a POV, it is a FACT. Darkieboy236 (talk) 23:19, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

You are inserting POV saying it is in the historic county of Lancashire. That implies the present, not the past. ^┌_Joshii^┐_└^chat_┘ 23:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Such nitpickiness. This is strictly a content issue. I'm not seeing any POV-push, so that must be a subtlety. But just reading it with no knowledge of any agenda, I think Joshii's version reads better. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 23:32, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

living in the county, I am familar with the organisations mentioned. Joshii's version is more factually correct. --Killerofcruft (talk) 23:35, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I believe this issue has been resolved, and have marked it as such. This issue is precluded in our naming convention WP:PLACE and I've alerted Darkieboy236 about its existance, and commented on the talk page in question (Talk:Scholes, Greater Manchester) which seems to have stopped hostilities. --Jza84 |  Talk  01:01, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Out of process merge being attempted

This AfD was closed as "no consensus to delete." However, the closer added on some strange caveat that the article should be "selectively merged" when there was no consensus for that either. Now I'm being tag-team reverted as people try to enforce this ludicrous merge. If you look over the AfD, you'll see that there is clearly no consensus for ANYTHING there, which defaults to "keep", except in the mind of Sandstein, I guess. S. Dean Jameson 23:29, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

christ - that should be merged forthwith - wikipedia is not a memorial, not a news service etc etc. I see nothing wrong with people merging that content. Anyway - AFD is an administrative process, merging is an editorial process - the results of the afd should have no bearing on the merger (which should go ahead swiftly in my view). --Killerofcruft (talk) 23:32, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

• Look at the AfD. Read the article. It's not a memorial. That said, this isn't a place to debate WHETHER to merge it or not, it's to judge why they think there was consensus to merge at the AfD, when there was not. S. Dean Jameson 23:34, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Fine - I suggest no action is taken until the proposed merge is discussed on the talkpage - I'll be heading over with a big fat MERGE in a minute. --Killerofcruft (talk) 23:37, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Debate started here. I see no requirement for admin action as long as involved parties are willing to discuss this on the talkpage and clearly establish consensus for the merger. anyone have a problem with that solution? --Killerofcruft (talk) 23:41, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Isn't WP:DRV the place to discuss "improper" AfD closures? AniMate 23:46, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

• If the result was a deleted article, yes. It's not. It's an out-of-process merge being attempted. The tally from the AfD, even including all "deletes" as "merge" !votes, was 21-14. That's not "consensus" in any way, shape or form for deletion. S. Dean Jameson 23:49, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

As long as they have ceased trying to discuss it without discussion and consensus on the talkpage - which it seems they have - there is no longer an "out of process" merge for admin to deal with. There is a discussion now happening on the article talkpage to discuss merger and that's an editoral matter for editors - no admin act is required. If the outcome there is merge - well that's what happens. --Killerofcruft (talk) 23:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

• I had to revert Fletcher's second attempt just a bit ago. And my point is, why do we need to rehash it? We discussed merging at AfD, and there was no consensus. There's no need for a new discussion, minutes after the AfD closed. There was not consensus to merge, even given Sandstein's odd closing statement suggesting there was. S. Dean Jameson 23:55, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

AFD is administrative and merger is editorial. What is the outcome you are looking for here? For admin to state that a merge discussion cannot occur on an article talk page? best of luck with that one. So make this explict - what do you want an administrator to do? what is the action you want to be taken. --Killerofcruft (talk) 00:01, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

• I want people to quit tag-team merging this while discussion (for some reason) continues on merging. A third person has now attempted it, putting me on the edge of 3RR. S. Dean Jameson 00:11, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

That should stop - an uninvolved admin want to step in there and put a stop to this while debate is ongoing. --Killerofcruft (talk) 00:13, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

The result of the AfD was no consensus to delete, but Sandstein suggested a merge, which is what I attempted before S. Dean Jameson began edit warring. While I understand "merger is editorial," in this case the outcome of the AfD suggested the merge. Can you clarify what weight that suggestion is supposed to have? Editors spent a fair amount of time and effort discussing the matter in the AfD; does that whole process now have to be repeated on the article's talk page? It seems to me the discussion has occurred and the process should go forward. Fletcher (talk) 00:22, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

One person objecting does not equate to "no consensus". Three separate editors have attempted to merge the article, and Mr. Jameson has seen fit to revert all of them. Horologium (talk) 00:20, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree, The editor is very pushy for the article not to be merged and even said on the articles talk page Did you even bother to read the AfD?[61] which is a rather rude question to ask since I've said that I agreed with the closing Admin. Bidgee (talk) 00:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

There seems to be consensus both at the AfD and at the subsequent talkpage discussion for a merge by my reckoning. I see no administrative action needed here in terms of preventing the merge. Fritzpoll (talk) 00:24, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

No admin action is required. If anyone has a problem with the outcome of the AfD they should go to WP:DRV. AniMate 00:27, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

• DRV is for DELETION review, AniMate, not MERGER review. And there's CLEARLY no consensus at the AfD. Even Sandstein said that on his talk, that further discussion should take place. But you guys have bludgeoned me into submission. Do what you want. I just won't be part of it, or of a project that allows this kind of editorial bullying. S. Dean Jameson 00:31, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

No it isn't. WP:DRV is for discussing all of the decisions that come from an AfD. That includes delete, merge, keep, and no consensus. AniMate 00:35, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

• As I said, good bye. I won't be part of this. Scrambling password. S. Dean Jameson 00:37, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
• Ok. Take a short break, realise that we're not out to get you, and come back to edit. This isn't bullying - you came and asked for an opinion, we gave it. Fritzpoll (talk) 00:38, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

This topic appears to be an outgrowth of this discussion last week that resulted in this separate page being created. [62] Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 00:39, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

For someone who just joined on 19 June 2008, Killerofcruft seems beyond WP:AGF territory in his knowlege of process. The username alone seems to be a pointy one, not to mention the statement on his userpage. Cruft is a very subjective term and a new editor taking such a polemic stance on a wikipolitical issue seems bizzare. --Dragon695 (talk) 02:48, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

fyi - not sure why it's disappeared so quickly from here.. but no biggie.. Privatemusings (talk) 03:00, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

A user fresh off of a 48 hour block for 3RR has gone completely crazy

In case anyone hasn't taken notice, Johan Rachmaninov (talk · contribs), who has just returned from his second block for edit warring, has decided WP:3RR means absolutely nothing to him and has gone past 6RR on at least 8 different pages. Another extended break may be required for him. Libs (talk) 23:53, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

He has now been given a 175 hour time-out, or 7-something days. Watch for him again on July 1. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 00:40, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

User:Fclass again

Please review. Gwen Gale (talk) 00:00, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Agree, this guy just isn't getting it, and his tone straight after an unblock suggests that he isn't going to, however much he protests. Penitence is not a convenience, in my book. --Rodhullandemu 00:23, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I better not see an unblock. This guy's wasted his welcome. Wizardman 00:39, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Indefinite ban of User:Burrburr et al.

Burrburr came to my attention as a result of this complaint and Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/SqueakBox. I think Burrburr's agenda can be summarized as opposing the description of various 19th century and earlier figures as pederasts, and accusing other editors of having a "subtle agenda" and of using misleading or fringe sources to promote the view of these historical figures as homosexual or pederasts or both. This may be a useful goal for all I know; the facts may be on his side. However, it is clear he is a serial sockpuppet abuser.

On my talk page he explains that he edits from a school with a shared IP. This may in fact be true. However, it does not explain multiple accounts on two different ISPs. It also strikes me as unlikely that a boarding school would encourage its students to make so many edits related to the sexuality of historical figures, or that many of its faculty would have the same interests. Consequently, I think the "shared IP" explanation falls far short of the truth.

Group 1

• These accounts should be considered  Confirmed sockpuppets based on their editing from multiple shared IP addresses from two different ISPs.

1. Burrburr (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
2. Shalasi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
3. Flutenote (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
4. Nunetide (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
5. Belgiantowne (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
6. Homonim (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
7. PhilComer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
8. Collander (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
9. TheGreenSerene (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
10. WPLanders (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
11. Nuttingmutt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
12. OWgreenflower (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
13. Aquagreen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
14. Qualiforis (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Group 2

• These accounts are editing from the same group of IP addresses that are allegedly shared by the school, but do not show up on the second ISP. Some of them may be unrelated. I would like an independent review of their contributions; I suspect that the accounts which make edits related to the sexuality of historical figures are the same user.

1. Albion53 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
2. Aliceinropes (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
3. Amoreta (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
4. Anchora (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
5. Belcanti (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
6. Bellamie (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
7. Bettherthenallu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
8. Boa'sTale (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
9. Boondigger (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
10. Boothand (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
11. Brightmanfan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
12. Brudavar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
13. Calygne (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
14. Capricornica (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
15. CaptainGlorie (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
16. ColorofHue (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
17. Cornydogg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
18. CRuben (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
19. DanielKsley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
20. DixitAgna (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
21. Dunbot (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
22. Duskibarge (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
23. EmilyWien (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
24. Enterria (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
25. GeorgeBeaumont (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
26. Groawata (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
27. GustavNeuman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
28. HauldenFeder (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
29. HenriCotillard (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
30. Heretodae (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
31. HHolmstrom (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
32. HJHaefliger (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
33. Inplanecite (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
34. Kakapoopoop (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
35. KidAid (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
36. Kristacinthia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
37. LordTurnip (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
38. LPChang (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
39. Mahbuebue (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
40. MaryBalantine (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
41. Melatope (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
42. Midlletonn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
43. Misaclean (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
44. Moonbada (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
45. Mycivicduty (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
46. NewAladacia26 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
47. Nullog (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
48. Oculist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
49. Palamide (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
50. Pallalia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
51. Palomide (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
52. Parsiharmony (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
53. Patanelle (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
54. Pechapeeq (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
55. Pegpod5 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
56. Pianta43 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
57. Pointseth (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
58. Pompeiae (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
59. PopeNoire (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
60. Rimbaudo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
61. Rimbauldo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
62. Salava (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
63. SalmonSea (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
64. Saucysole (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
65. SceneandHeard (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
66. ScottBorough (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
67. Seabeam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
68. Seatglued (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
69. Shallaq (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
70. SleepySandy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
71. Sotubot (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
72. StuWhite (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
73. Sypebot (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
74. TaliaDrossel (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
75. Tamberlaine (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
76. TheColumbineAsskicre (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
77. TheraK (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
78. Theseekerstar5 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
79. Typhee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
80. Uldino (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
81. Utumach (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
82. Wellington'sway (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
83. WillofWorchester (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
84. WinsomeDove (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
85. Yodada (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Regardless of whether he is right or wrong on the content question, this behavior is a serious breach of community standards. Thatcher 03:13, 24 June 2008 (UTC)