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The result was delete. No strong arguments to keep - no prejudice to creating a redirect Kevin (talk) 22:19, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Park Teddy

Park Teddy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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DELETE. This is a BLP article which has apparently been unsourced for well over a year. The entire article, in addition to lacking sources, is highly amateurish and unnecessary. No opposition to a redirect at a later date but there is nothing to merge here and nothing to salvage. Requesting deletion on BLP grounds. JBsupreme (talk) 16:15, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete-ish comment - I think the subject is notable enough. But if sources cannot be found, delete, Lord Spongefrog, (I am the Czar of all Russias!) 17:10, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Probably want to redirect it to that group he's in. What's it called again? Lord Spongefrog, (I am the Czar of all Russias!) 17:11, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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  • Weak Merge/Redirect to 1TYM. WP:BLP recommends the immediate deletion of all unsourced claims in the biography of a living person, which in this case would require blanking the article. However were sources to be found he meet the criteria at WP:NMUSIC as being (1) a member of a notable group who (2) has been involved in significant solo works (as a songwriter for other groups). - DustFormsWords (talk) 05:18, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was no consensus. Additional sources have been added since the last "delete" arguments but further discussion has been minimal. At this point I would suggest that article improvement should be attempted rather than deletion. ~ mazca talk 22:25, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

German-South African Lawyers Association

German-South African Lawyers Association (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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Non-notable organization. I searched Google for the English and German versions of the name, but found nothing to satisfy WP:RS and WP:ORG Warrah (talk) 16:21, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was redirect to List of Humanx Commonwealth races#Minidrag. Content already merged. (non-admin closure) Tim Song (talk) 00:09, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Minidrag

Minidrag (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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Non notable fictional planet, no source is given. JL 09 q?c 16:22, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 09:31, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Pitar (alien race)

Pitar (alien race) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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Non notable fictional planet, no source is given. JL 09 q?c 16:22, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 20:03, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cannabis (hashish) rosin

Cannabis (hashish) rosin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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I don't think there's any such thing. Google mainly returns the WP article or copies of it. Completely unsourced conjecture doe not belong in encyclopedia. Mjpresson (talk) 10:58, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. No arguments to keep. Kevin (talk) 22:20, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Landa lakes

Landa lakes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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Promotion page for non-notable artist. Damiens.rf 12:21, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. I'm closing as delete, referring to the mainspace article (now a redirect to the incubated version). Once rewritten, it may be appropriate to move it back. Kevin (talk) 21:52, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Habibi Silsila

Habibi Silsila (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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This article isn't even written encyclopedicly. It has no reliable sources, and just seems to be a copyvio from somewhere else. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, and also fails the notability test. —MC10 (T•C•GB•L•EM) 03:56, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete for now. Not possible to determine Notability in its current incoherent state but if rewritten it may possibly emerge as notable. I suspect this is a bona fide effort to describe somebody of note but just needs assistance, I would offer to help myself but probably better if it were somebody culturally closer to the author, ideally with both English and the author's language. Suggest delete now and possibly reintroduce after: 1. Complete rewrite by somebody with good English language skills. 2. Redevelop to conform with Wikipedia Manual of Style - see WP:MOSBIO. 3. Add citations. Ex nihil (talk) 05:10, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • I am sure the authorities will reconsider our problem and will try to help us. Our intention is to bring this great Sufi Saint to the light - it is a kind of biography and his contribution to the society. We are trying to get more information from various local languages and maybe will try to seek help from good English writers.. Meanwhile we request Wiki people not to delete this article Thank you in advance.. Hyk 99.244.249.141 (talk) 01:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC) --99.244.249.141 (talk) 01:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, this fails multiple policies and is unlikely to be fixed in the short term. If our anonymous friend wishes to register an account he can have it moved to his userspace to allow rework, but this is likely to take some considerable time so it's not a good idea to leave it in mainspace in the mean time. Guy (Help!) 19:40, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete If I am understanding it correctly, Habibi Silsila is a Sufi order (silsilah) started by Sayed Khwaja Habib Ali Shah. However the article and sources are written in such a hagiographer and incoherent style, that it is difficult for me to make any further sense of them. Also, the linked websites are not really reliable, and I didn't find any useful books/articles online. So while the subject may possibly be notable, there is no point keeping this article around. Abecedare (talk) 04:27, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • We are in process of seeking expertise help please bear with us. We will reformat and incorporate the books and other mateial. This was an attempt.. Thank you for understanding and considering to hold the deletion at this point... We realize it is not meeting the criteria of wiki.. thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.244.249.141 (talk) 01:24, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hold it a moment I have offered to help rewrite this article with the original authors because I think there could be something noteworthy in it. Meantime I have recommended that the originators voluntarily blank the page themselves to avoid having a delete recorded against this page name. We will repost it if we can get something together that conforms. Meantime, it would be good if this page could be left for them to blank. Ex nihil (talk) 02:25, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ex nihil, it would be great if you could help the IPs develop the article. Since blanking an article in mainspace is not recommended, how about userification in your userspace, or moving to WP:INCUBATE ? I have no objections to either options as an alternative to deletion. Abecedare (talk) 03:46, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 04:42, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. \ Backslash Forwardslash / (talk) 20:36, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Signing of the Treaty of Lisbon

Signing of the Treaty of Lisbon (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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Fails WP:NOT, if you think about it. Relevant details are covered here; those interested in seeing the actual signatures can peruse them here; but if we don't have, for instance, Signing of the United States Declaration of Independence or Signing of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact (two rather more important events), then surely we can do without this little experiment as well. Biruitorul Talk 03:35, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Yes, I know that this article needs more content if it is to survive in the long run, and I intend to write more very soon. Biruitorul; I (apparently as opposed to you) am very aware of a certain policy called WP:OTHERSTUFF, but since you've actually started comparing the significance of this event to other historical events, I'd like to point out that Wikipedia already has an article on for instance the Second inauguration of Grover Cleveland. Do you think a post-election formality like an American presidential inauguration is more significant than the highly political (by no means a certainty or a formality) act of 27 sovereign countries signing a European treaty? I'd argue the opposite. But since WP:OTHERSTUFF exists, I'd just like to say that both the inauguration of an American president and the signing of a European treaty are ceremonies, but that the latter is more historic. - SSJ ☎ 10:56, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fear not, SSJ, I too am "very aware" of WP:OTHERSTUFF, though I am also aware of the fact that it is not policy. As to your argument: true, the signing of the Lisbon Treaty was not insignificant (though let us hope Václav Klaus renders it irrelevant), but all relevant details about it are encompassed right here. Anything else is bound to be trivia: what kind of pens they were using, who supplied the ink, what birds were flying overhead, etc. The only substantive difference so far is your addition of the signatures, which is really overkill (not to belabour the point, but the rather more famous signatures on the United States Declaration of Independence are kept out of that article). But you have a week in which to disprove me - and remember, the burden is on you to do so (an actual policy).
  • About Cleveland: that arose when an endless article on Obama's inauguration was written, and some said "well, if we have that, we need all the other US Presidents too". I agree that's a somewhat dubious line of reasoning, and would welcome an AfD there. - Biruitorul Talk 14:37, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I guess the wiki-notability of the signing of a treaty would depend on how much fuss is arranged in relation to a ceremony. And I would suppose that in the 19th century, the signing of a treaty essentially was a group of persons gathering in a room, opening the treaty book and signing it. The portuguese presidency really made a big ceremony out of the whole day. - SSJ ☎ 15:50, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Do we have a gallery of famous autographs somewhere? This looks like nothing more than an excuse for displaying the signatures, perhaps not of the "Crowned Heads of Europe", but at least the prime ministers. No wonder it's too large to fit into the parent article, it would be like trying to fit a fully inflated life raft into the family car. Plenty of air to let out of this one. Mandsford (talk) 16:20, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I have to agree that this contains nothing that couldn't be covered at the main Treaty of Lisbon article. Redirect and merge anything useful. Hobartimus (talk) 17:20, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Passes WP:GNG, has significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject which means that it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article. While it is true that GNG does not guaranty of notability, the singing of a notable treaty is, in and of its self, notable in my opinion. The fact that Gordon Brown was late, which received significant media coverage and speculations, also reinforces the claim for a dedicated article. Multiple BBC News articles, sourced in article, and a quick check of other Newspapers (or there online arcives anyway) shows they all reproted on the singing cermonmy. [2], [3], [4], [5], and [6]. More could easly be found. --Elfwood (talk) 17:23, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Should be expanded a bit to avoid being merged, but in principle, it's encyclopedic. —Nightstallion 17:58, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. This is an encyclopedic article on a very notable historical event. - SSJ ☎ 18:07, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - for the record, SSJ sent out these three messages. While technically worded neutrally, we should also note the three recipients all openly proclaim their support for the European Union. In order to avoid the appearance of canvassing, perhaps SSJ would like to extend similar invitations to avowed Eurosceptics as well. - Biruitorul Talk 18:12, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: Sorry but that is absurd, support for the EU does not equate to support for this article. I am one who has been contacted and my track record on these matters (even supporting some of SSJ's writings) is hardly one of fanatic endorsement.- J.Logan`t: 18:59, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - Agreed. This article should be just as significant to a pro-EU member as an anti-EU member. One would consider the event very important because it’s the next big step for Europe and the other because it was the single moment which codified a momentous mistake. To use the nominator’s logic: anyone who thinks WW2 was a bad thing would vote for the deletion of the article. Since this position is clearly absurd, so must be Biruitorul implications of bias. Secondly, I would also like to point out my objection to the nominator’s statement that the United States Declaration of Independence and the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact are ‘two rather more important events’ and even if they were why that should matter? If someone had created a ‘Signing of...’ article for one of them and subsequently it was deleted through the Articles for Deletion Process, that would be one thing but merely noting that one does not exist only means that they don’t exist, not that they should not. I for one would strongly argue that a Signing of the United States Declaration of Independence article should exist. --Elfwood (talk) 19:17, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. At first thought, I was thinking "how on earth can you write an article about the signing of the treaty??" But reading through, we have a solid basis for an article here, even without expansion I don't think this warrants the attacks it is attracting (though expansion I think would be highly favourable). It is a notable event that is not totally covered elsewhere and that is not in itself a reason to delete it regardless - if it can be made to work better as a separate article then why not? I totally disagree with the nominator, I find the argument that we "don't need this little experiment" is one totally against any spirit of advancement here, let's experiment! Just because there isn't one on the declaration of independence isn't a reason for there not to be one here, nor does it mean there shouldb't be one for the declaration of independence either. Leave it alone! If it goes down hill in a few months then come back to it but it is depressing to see people stalkign around Wikipedia looking for babies to kill in their cots.- J.Logan`t: 18:59, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Just how detailed does it need to get? The article is (by taxonomy, not just its current status) a collection of factoids. The more relevant bits (if any) should be covered in one of the existing articles. Dahn (talk) 19:01, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I can't see having a separate article about the ceremony that accompanies the signing of any important document. So far, the history of the Treaty of Lisbon is well-covered in that article, since the ratification process is going on. Maybe that's the solution, to make this a "history of" article, without all the bells and whistles. Mandsford (talk) 19:57, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: The Treaty of Lisbon article is far over bloated already, off shoots of the side issues are useful.- J.Logan`t: 21:30, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: I must echo this point. We also must remember that the Treaty of Lisbon article already has 7 sections linking to a main article (using the {{main|...}} tag) and 10 further information sections (using the {{See|...}} tag). The only reason it is not much worse than it already is, is because people are splitting pieces which could possibly be part of the main article in to their own. Could Signing of the Treaty of Lisbon be part of the Treaty of Lisbon article, yes of course it could. But we have found sources, news and media coverage enough that it could also be its own article, and given the state of Treaty of Lisbon and its potential for much future expansion (as soon as the changes it recommends kick in), I think it’s entirely justified to make a dedicated article. --Elfwood (talk) 21:55, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question: Are either the treaty itself or the circumstances surrounding its signing controversial? If yes, then keep; if no, then delete. 72.83.205.80 (talk) 22:51, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Reply Firstly, controversial is hardly a requirement, would you remove an article on the signing of the Declaration of Independence merely because there wasn't a punch up afterwards? Secondly, some controversy here: Gordon Brown coming late in a semi-snub, large environmental cost which undermined the EU's environmental soap-box and the fact the treaty itself was controversial. All these points can easily be built on substantially in the article beyond the sections currently being laid out.- J.Logan`t: 08:11, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, fairly well-sourced and passes the notability test as this was an important signing. It could do some work, but every article is a work in progress. —MC10 (T•C•GB•L•EM) 01:16, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, don't understand the nominator's point about not having articles for other signings that are "rather more important events". Importance is relative. "This little experiment" concerns many more countries than those treaties the nominator chose to make their point. Passes the GNG, so keep. --candle•wicke 20:25, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete An absurd split. The only actual additional information here is the signatures of the signers and the events of the ceremony, including the lunch menu. The most extensive section says that Brown did not attend. The treaty is important, the controversy over it in each nation is important, the court cases deriving from it are important. The ceremony is the least important thing about it. WP is not an autograph album. DGG ( talk ) 02:59, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The fact that Brown chose not to attend the signing became a well-known diplomatic spectacle, and was a major, well-sourced controversy in the media; but the biggest section in this article is not about that. The menu has been removed, I agree that's trifle. But as Wikipedia has precedence for keeping articles about the most important ceremonies (American presidential inaugurations, opening ceremonies in sports etc.) I think this event, which was highly controversial and by no means a matter-of-course, passes GNG. In the three speeches in the beginning of the ceremony, the importance of "this" day in the history of Europe was stressed several times. - SSJ ☎ 11:02, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The signatures are not there for the purpose of decoration. It's a list of signatories, which is very relevant, encyclopedic information. For example there is a separate article called "Signatories to the Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe". - SSJ ☎ 15:19, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. The keep arguments here provide no evidence that this person passes Wikipedia's notability criteria. Kevin (talk) 11:12, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ashish Dabral

Ashish Dabral (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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This seems to be an autobio or CV, or at least a fan bio. I tried to find reliable sources to verify this information and show notability, but I could not find any mention of this individual. Fences&Windows 03:22, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not delete this article and do let us know what kind of reliable sources you need to keep it in Wikipedia. This is about a person who started his life from a basic village and is working for mankind through a NGO. We strongly recommend to keep this article on Wikipedia because we feel this article deserve it. References can be provided if required. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.184.190.95 (talk) 18:03, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Read WP:Reliable sources to see what we mean by 'reliable sources'. We want to see multiple newspaper articles, magazines, books or scholarly articles with a reputation for fact checking that have discussed Ashish Dabral's life and works in depth. Without this, we have no reason to believe that he is notable enough for an entry in an encyclopedia - Wikipedia is not a host for CVs or tributes to friends, but rather it makes record of people and topics that have received recognition and may be of historic interest. Fences&Windows 22:18, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Every source provided so far seems not to mention the guy, Google, Gnews do not give any source. Gbooks retrieves a book by the guy, and that's it. Nice guy, but not for a bio here. Even my inclusionism has a threshold. --Cyclopiatalk 00:28, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We are not sure what kind of "real" avidence you are looking for. We have hunderds of example in Wikipedia where people do not have any reference but their descereption is available in WP. We can provide enough avidence/references about this person who is working for a noble cause and we are sure WP will help him to spread his noble efforts. If required, We can remove things looking like his biodata - i.e. his work profile etc. But still we strongly recommend him to be in WP. We don't mind if you delete him but trust our words, You will find him in WP sooner or later. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.184.206.5 (talk) 02:59, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The point is that we need some reliable source. Is he discussed in a book? Has he been discussed in newspapers? This would greatly help your cause. --Cyclopiatalk 13:08, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are a couple of newsletters, Magazines and journals where you can find him easily, unfortunately, these journals, Magazines are not available online presently. You can find an article about his works on OMKARESHWAR Temple (OMGOD) in 'Om Shanti Sandesha' June 2009 edition (published by OM Shanti Mandiram, Columbia, USA: A Non Government Organization) and if required we can provide scanned copy of the article in said journal. A couple of local newspapers acknowledge his work towards Indian Culture. His works are in primary phase so the references are limited, but there are references and this is the fact. If you believe whatever is present online is the only truth then please go ahead and delete this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 215.66.225.23 (talk) 17:12, 29 October 2009 (UTC) External Link: http://omshantimandiram.org/worthyhomepages.html[reply]

A charity organization newsletter? Sorry, but that's not nearly enough. It's not matter of "believe whatever is present online is the only truth", it's that we have no way to check otherwise. If you can link scans of reliable news sources (wide circulation newspapers, magazines etc.) talking about him, you're welcome -though we cannot guarantee it will be enough, for sure it helps. --Cyclopiatalk 23:01, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We will provide link(s) for scanned newspapers/magazines shortly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.184.210.31 (talk) 05:58, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete The biography is unsourced + even if all the facts were verifiable, it is not clear what makes the person WP:Notable as a student, NCC cadet, employee at various tech./engineering firms, or as a founder of an NGO that started in October 2009! Abecedare (talk) 04:35, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep seems you are confused, or you are not aware what you want to quote here, This article is about a person who studied in a small village in India and then participated India's Republic Day Parade, This is itself a big achievement for a person. He is awarded by Governor of the Uttar Pradesh State and Gen. Ved Prakesh Malik.

In the age of 26 he started a NGO and working for welfare of poor people and for the great Indian culture. It is easy to comment here but it takes a lot to achieve such things. Once again we recommend him for WP and will provide "evidence" as requested. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.160.241.41 (talk) 16:31, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry, but it is you that are confused. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. The fact that this person had a personal big achievement is nice, but it doesn't make it automatically fit for an encyclopedia. We need sources, that's it. --Cyclopiatalk 16:56, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was speedy delete. GedUK  16:41, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Jacob Davich

Jacob Davich (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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Speedy delete if possible. The biographical article is about Taylor Dooley. There does exist an imdb link to Jacob Davich but he hasn't acted in the mentioned movies. P.S. The external link to IMDB also links to Taylor Dooley Writer Listener 03:15, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete and it could go as a speedy vandalism G3 as "blatant and obvious misinformation" as it is clearly an attempt to mislead. Per the nom, it is in large part a copy of the Taylor Dooley article with a few name changes, although without bothering to change the gender of the pronouns. The filmography, barring one film, is pure fantasy. In addition, and it is time to call a duck a spade (or whatever ;)) , it is clearly the work of an Alexcas11 (talk · contribs) sock, down to the role in A Nightmare on Elm Street (2010), a film whose cast list Alexcas11 has tried to expand to include what seems like most of Hollywood by now. (The last version of this article, which was deleted, was created by an Alexcas sock) However, the subject himself might well be notable enough and certainly none of the above should be taken as prejudice against the creation of an article in good faith . However, this ain't it. FlowerpotmaN·(t) 08:12, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was keep. Per WP:SNOW, especially given the result of the last AfD just three months ago. Consensus is clear that the subject is notable. Content disputes should be dealt with on the article's talk page. AFD is not for cleanup. (non-admin closure) Tim Song (talk) 08:51, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Two Brothers Brewing

AfDs for this article:
Two Brothers Brewing (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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Is Wikipedia is some kind of restaurant directory. This entry should be remove due to the fact its not notable, and contributes to the sum of all human knowledge. This article would fit very well on an advertising flier, stuck to my car window in Warrenville parking lot at the Satisfied Frog pub and grill. This article should be promptly removed, per WP:NOTADVERTISING, WP:NOTBLOG, WP:NOT#HOST WP:NOTTRAVEL, WP:NOTDIRECTORY, WP:PROMOTION. unless Two Bothers is paying some at Wikipedia to have this here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Greenbreww (talk • contribs)

The instructions at this link Wikipedia:Articles for deletion are a bit confusing and cryptic. Sorry for the trouble - thanks Greenbreww (talk) 03:01, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Corrected the articles AfD. The false 3rd nomination has be deleted. (CSD G7) -- allen四names 03:18, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank youGreenbreww (talk) 03:20, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
TONE down the Ad Homumin attacks - the issue is not about SPA, it's beer and the notability of this little bar in Warrenvile, I know you like being abusive, aggressive, and nasty to those that don't 110% agree with your off wall opinions, but this only about bad beer, not about those you don't like.Greenbreww (talk) 21:53, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What's your angle, Green, see my comment about you below?--Milowent (talk) 22:58, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I saw, thanks - The comment was directed to Mr Goethean - his comment about SPA was uncalled for.Greenbreww (talk) 00:58, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Your repeated failure to reply to my simple question is good evidence to suggest that you have a conflict of interest with the article subject. Its not about whether you are an "SPA" but what your angle is.--Milowent (talk) 02:38, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep. Google alone shows coverage in the Chicago Reader and in a journalist's book about "American beer culture" (plus "BeerAdvocate.com", for what that's worth), all of which are third-party sources, although I wouldn't go out on a limb for their reliability or depth of coverage. If the article appears to be advertising the topic, that can be solved by editing rather than deletion. (Editing to add: this is in addition to the Chicago Tribune coverage already noted in the previous AfD, for those who haven't read it.) --Paularblaster 08:06, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep. Numerous third party sources. Gamaliel (talk) 15:28, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: So there was a recent prior AfD that ended in July 2009 as a keep, and I see no argument that prior consensus has changed, right? As suggested above, Nominator Greenbreww was around during that AfD and was active on talk page, and his nick sounds like he's interested in the subject matter, so am interested to know what he/she thinks is different now.--Milowent (talk) 15:30, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Google books [7]. — goethean ॐ 16:58, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Delete per wikipolicy regarding using Wikipeidia for Advertising a business, especially one so small. Note, the Trib and other will give complementary writeups in their news paper for paid advertising, especially when the Trib is bankrupt right now. So, I call in to question the true notability of this bar. But, this article, is in conflict with published Wikipeida policy of WP:DEL#REASON as well as WP:NOTADVERTISING, WP:NOTBLOG, WP:NOT#HOST WP:NOTTRAVEL, and WP:NOTDIRECTORYBut I guess all of these polices are worthless? Greenbreww 22:04, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • You are the nominator, and a presumed delete !vote, Greenbreww. Why don't you respond to my repeated questions about what your angle is in all this, and why you think the prior consensus from less than 30 days ago, resulting in a keep, has changed? I am always open to differing viewpoints, but simply reeling off policy names is rarely convincing.--Milowent (talk) 02:38, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: Greenbreww has now !voted delete twice - I just noted this while persuing the comments again.--Milowent (talk) 07:34, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Reeling off Policy, I guess it's ok to use wikipeida as a form of free advertisement, Now I throw the question of "What is me interest in this..." I throw this back at you, MR Milowent? Why is this little, bar so important to you Mr Milowent the the others??? Just for the record, I live with in 1.6 miles Away from this place and have tasted the work of the Two brothers, unlike most here, less maybe MR Goththememan( who I know lives in dupage). I found the work to be unremarkable.
Now, the point, first why bother with policy, when it can be apply or not to apply at will and convenience of those with the power bully their point of view? Second, As I mention, Two brother advertise in the Trib, Daily Herald, as it is customary, for those that advertise heavily, to give favorable reviews in return to heavy advertisers to the newspaper. In other words, I don't recognized the validity of the reviews listed about TB. Now finely, the rule of law (policy) vers (consensus) - Now, if we have rule of law, then even tho, as we look out side and most would say the Earth is "flat" The truth is its round, but if you get a "consensus", in Wikipedia which - the earth is "flat" and enough bully in to say so, then it's flat - Or in other words, might makes right when it's wrong. That is the point, yes?
Consider this...

Trade publications and awards aren't good enough The current notability guideline for businesses discount purely local coverage, on the grounds that while your business may be notable in the town in which it operates, this doesn't translate to notability in the general world.

Trade publications and websites, in my opinion, suffer from the same problem. They just aren't likely to be read by anyone outside your trade. And, since many such publications rely on submissions from the businesses they cover, their independence is also subject to some doubt. If you want to rest your case on notability on coverage in business periodicals, they need to be general interest and general circulation periodicals of the Wall Street Journal and Business Week type. A mention in Blacksmithing Today or Modern Dental Offices just doesn't feed the weasel. Likewise, your receiving a minor award at an industry awards banquet does not make a strong case for notability of your business....

...General interest outside your locality and outside your industry is what makes a case for notability.

Greenbreww (talk) 12:53, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As to my interest, Greenbreww, I've only been to Chicago once and have never heard of this place, but what has retained my interest in this AfD are the hints of COI among some of the edits. I have a keen interest in internet behavior, including hoaxes like lonelygirl15 where I was one of the people involved in investigating that hoax. That's my angle. So, it was fairly clear to me that you had some interest in the article subject here. In fact, I hypothesize that you don't only live 1.6 miles away, and have tasted their beer, but that you also either dislike the brothers or have some other business interest adverse to them.
Now, I am well aware that articles like this can be subject to spamlike content. But I checked google and and saw how darn many references they have in the media. That's crosses the line for coverage on Wikipedia. Maybe part of that is just good PR on their part, but they have generated enough press to be notable (including, for example, outside of Chicago, two references to their beers in the NYTimes in the past year.) Your position is that the local press is biased because Two Brothers advertises in them, so you discount the use of those sources as counting towards notability. That's a not a crazy argument, but this place has more than just one local puff piece out there.--Milowent (talk) 13:54, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I live on the E side of Winfield - get a map out and see the distant to the brewhouse. Any rate the passive aggressive Ad Hominum is not relevant anyway, what is, I have been there, and on more than one occasion and found the beer overrated. Now the beer was drinkable... as drinkable - say MGD or Goose, but award winning - NO. I'm of Central European stock, and know beer. Further more, this article is bold face puff and free advertising and inconsistent with Wikipedia philosophy. Finely, I have no business interest adverse to the TB, I work as an IT admin.Greenbreww (talk) 18:32, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK, fair enough. Your personal opinion that the beer is crappy and the press about them overblown mimics my thoughts about Miley Cyrus.--Milowent (talk) 18:55, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Why is it Wikipedeans want to put words in people's mouths, I said " The beer was overrated", but was drinkable, as MGD. This is not crappy beer just not Award Winning beer. Please restrain from this kind of assumption and stick with the discussion of the article. Thanks.Greenbreww (talk) 14:10, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies for offending MGD drinkers.--Milowent (talk) 14:57, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree that there is unsourced material in the article that is kinda spammy that probably should be removed if there is no sourcing, but perhaps not the wholesale excision you just performed.--Milowent (talk) 14:57, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free to add what you think, but the wholesale rejection by Goetheanan is not going to get us to a place of agreement.Greenbreww (talk) 19:34, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment ONLY in this form [8] will move to close this afd not when this article is shilling as a times square billboard like this [9]...Greenbreww (talk) 19:11, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I believe the creator of this article is a great deal more bias then I am. I no connection to Tb, and there is strong possibility that the creator of this article has connection or my even being paid for it. I willing to have the article, but I am not willing to have the Times Square, Spamomatic version now on line.. Two brothers is only notable enough to justify a paragraph of two, no more.Greenbreww (talk) 19:45, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Dude, consensus is clearly way against you on content, so please don't blank out 90% of the article like you just did. Nobody here gets to put down directives as to what can and can't be in any article as a personal privilege.--Milowent (talk) 07:31, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus - NO, Astroturfing, YES. Rightness of my argument is clear. Now if this just a voting majority, then It's clear I lost, but just because more are wrong than right, don't make make it right. Might don't make right. This article is clearly inconsistent with Wikipedia policy,(WP:NOTADVERTISING, WP:NOTBLOG, WP:NOT#HOST WP:NOTTRAVEL, WP:NOTDIRECTORY, WP:PROMOTION) which no one wants to accept. Further more, it's clear, there is economic benefit and as such it seems likely there issue of WP:COI with the author of this article and the gang which now has been assembled. Again '...please note that this is not a majority vote, but a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes."And lastly, Goehthean acts with out regard to any one, and refuses to make argument and explain his position, other then edit war, which he has a long history this. This is not very Civil.Greenbreww (talk) 14:03, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Squawking about uncivil comments isn't moving the ball any, you sure are good at citing policies for a newby editor. Now you are even edit warring on the article. I am reverting you, and if you revert me again I will call for you to be blocked. Please let's be constructive.--Milowent (talk) 14:14, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
MIGHT MAKES RIGHT you never answer the question, or engage the discussion, only lecture, condescension and threats. Typical of a weak argument, BUT I guess policy, rule of law are alien concepts here, in the end I believe TB has paid Goethean for this article, under the Duck [10] policy of wikipeida.
  • Keep. The topic has sources from reliable sources and appears to be at least marginally notable. From the vitriol and extremely limited range of edits from the nominator, this appears to be some sort of vendetta beyond anything to do with Wikipedia. older ≠ wiser 14:54, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Only a "vendetta to see right prevail over MIGHT. But, Rules and right is not notable?Greenbreww (talk) 15:24, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Whats right isn't always as clear as you seem to think. Personally, I'd be happy to see article or list entries for each and every commercial microbrewery. older ≠ wiser 15:55, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete There is bar, that brews its own beer, in illinois called "Two Brothers Brewing." These things seem true. It has received no particular attention (that is, notability as understood at wikipedia) accept from local newspapers and something called "The Guide to brew pubs in illinois" which mentions every last one of 'em in the state of lincoln. Delete this per the GNG, not a directory, etc... It's not a notable bar, not one of the sources establishes this.Bali ultimate (talk) 14:56, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per unambiguous close of previous discussion that closed as "keep" and pretty overwhelming consensus above that bar is sufficiently notable for Wikipedia, i.e. due to sources presented by others arguing to keep above. Also, I hope everyone had a Happy Halloween yesterday! Best, --A NobodyMy talk 18:08, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Per WP:SNOW. Our notability guide doesn't say that local newspapers aren't eligible as reliable sources. In addition, calling the Chicago Tribune a "local newspaper" is a really strange argument. The book reference makes a very good argument as to why it is notable; having a reputation in the area as having a reputation in Chicago for having good beer even among other brewers. -- Atama頭 20:00, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. JForget 22:47, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Khanoda & all in category:Khanoda

Khanoda (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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Ok not sure what to make of this one. I would say this is a hoax but I can find his albums for sale. But that's it that is the only thing I can confirm, everything else I find online is just mirrors of various wiki articles, or the AMG link. I have a feeling this is notable, but I am totally unable to prove it in even the slightest way. Ridernyc (talk) 02:47, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

More info, even when I try to search for Kommunion Recording Company the same just a ton of mirror sites. Ridernyc (talk) 02:50, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
More info again, Every article about this artist have been created by the same user, and with the exception of maintenance edits have been edited exclusively by that user for years now. This is looking more and more like some sort of hoax. Ridernyc (talk) 03:11, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Tim Song (talk) 00:12, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Taking into account those arguments based on various policies and guidelines, the questions answered in this discussion are: do his patents show notability?; do his convictions show notability?; and does he have sufficient published coverage to show general notability? Consensus is that neither the convictions nor the patents are notable, so we must assess on the final question. On this question, overall the keep arguments fail to effectively refute the detailed and numerous arguments that the totality of published coverage does not lift the subject over the threshhold of general notability. Kevin (talk) 11:01, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Howard Press

AfDs for this article:
Howard Press (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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DELETE Please!! - This article was written by the subject's son. I admit the COI. I started the page admittedly naively as a newbie) out of a heartfelt idea to discuss my father's positive contributions to humanity with his patent. But this has gotten WAY out of hand. Do you all really want my good intentions to leave me responsible for matricide?

It is my understanding from having lived through all of this mess, that this guy Etis was planted in the factory by those in Forest or other labs who wanted to steal my father's patent rights. It seems they did a really good job of it.

Regardless, WIKI policy on Biographies for living or in this case deceased (see C: below) persons, still call for certain protocols; to wit,

WIKI: Biographies of living persons (remember see below that this applies to deceased as well):

Biographies of living persons must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid paper; it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. The possibility of harm to living subjects (NB -Mrs. Press) is one of the important factors to be considered when exercising editorial judgment. So please review, if you are not already familiar with these policies, which from my perspective clearly qualify this article for deletion.

A: With respect to Criminals:
WIKI takes the view that MERELY that the act is High Profile does in and of itself doe NOT constitute "notability", read:<br? Perpetrators

A perpetrator of a high-profile crime does not automatically qualify as being notable enough to have a stand-alone article solely based on his or her status as a perpetrator. Notability with regards to this is normally defined as satisfying some other aspect of the notability of persons guideline that does not relate to the crime in question. Editors should consider creating articles on perpetrators if at least one of the following is true:

1. They are notable for something beyond the crime itself. An example is Phil Spector. (Note: Press was NOT, you all said so)
2. The victim is a renowned world figure, or immediate family member of a renowned world figure, including but not limited to politicians or worldwide celebrities. A good test for this (but not a necessary prerequisite) would be if the victim has an uncontested Wikipedia article that predates the alleged crime or death. Examples of perpetrators meeting this standard are John Hinckley, Jr., Mehmet Ali Ağca, Yigal Amir, André Dallaire and Gavrilo Princip. (Note: Press was Clearly NOT, you never heard of him until I started this!)
3. The motivation for the crime or the execution of the crime is unusual or has otherwise been considered noteworthy such that it is a well-documented historic event. Generally the historic significance is indicated by persistent coverage of the event in reliable secondary sources that devote significant attention to the individual's role. The assessment of notability on the basis of news coverage should follow the same criteria for assessing the notability of the crime, as above. Examples of perpetrators meeting this standard are Jeffrey Dahmer and Beverley Allitt. (Note: Though we may have a hard time proving this, Press swore all his life which was otherwise devoted to humanity and his family, that ETIS was PLANTED in his place to do exactly this. And, thus may have been a victim of this horror. And, by the way. He was ONE year in Federal Prison, NOT three! So much for the Notorious Counterfeiter of all time crap.) So: even in arguendum he was really guilty of counterfeiting and supported it, this still is NOT enough to qualify for NOTABILITY under your own rules!!!!

B: Articles about people notable only for one event

Wikipedia is not a newspaper. The bare fact that someone has been in the news does not in itself imply that they should be the subject of an encyclopedia entry. Where a person is mentioned by name in a Wikipedia article about a larger subject, but essentially remains a low-profile individual, we should generally avoid having an article on them.

If reliable sources cover the person only in the context of a particular event, and if that person otherwise remains, or is likely to remain, low profile, then a separate biography is unlikely to be warranted. Biographies of people of marginal notability can give undue weight to the event, and may cause problems for our neutral point of view policy. In such cases, a merge of the information and a redirect of the person's name to the event article are usually the better options.

If the event is significant, and if the individual's role within it is substantial, a separate article for the person may be appropriate. Individuals notable for well-documented events, such as John Hinckley, Jr., fit into this category. The significance of an event or individual should be indicated by how persistent the coverage is in reliable secondary sources.

NOTE: He lead an exemplary life in every other aspect of his life. WHAT ELSE was he notorious for? Thus the article fails THIS test as well.

C: Dealing with articles about the deceased

Although this policy specifically applies to the living, material about deceased individuals must still comply with all other Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Prompt removal of questionable material is proper. The burden of evidence for any edit rests firmly on the shoulders of the editor adding or restoring the material. This applies to verifiability of sources, and to all content policies and guidelines.


D: Presumption in favor of privacy
WIKI Policy states:

Wikipedia articles that present material about living people can affect their subjects' lives. Wikipedia editors who deal with these articles have a responsibility to consider the legal and ethical implications of their actions when doing so. It is not Wikipedia's purpose to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. Biographies of living persons must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy.

When writing about a person notable only for one or two events, including every detail can lead to problems, even when the material is well-sourced. In the best case, it can lead to an unencyclopedic article. In the worst case, it can be a serious violation of our policies on neutrality. When in doubt, biographies should be pared back to a version that is completely sourced, neutral, and on-topic.

This is of particularly profound importance when dealing with individuals whose notability stems largely from their being victims of another's actions. Wikipedia editors must not act, intentionally or otherwise, in a way that amounts to participating in or prolonging the victimization.

Thus, for all these reasons I ask that this article be finally DELETED. BTW: I sincerely apologize to all those who tried to improve the page, and did earnest research trying to help the case to keep a page re: the patent. This was my FIRST article an it was clearly a mistake for all the reasons you have all articulated.

Д-рСДжП,ДС 00:58, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion begins here

  • Notice - to all editors. As I understand it, the nominator is, or claims to be, the son or relative of Howard Press. So while that's not an argument for delete or for keep, please do be extra careful to not make personal attacks in this debate. Thanks! - DustFormsWords (talk) 03:35, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. I did and still do believe that Howard Press should have been considered notable on the grounds of his invention, and subsequent patent. The addition of the information on his trial and conviction is wholly immaterial to his creation, and his contribution to society, and is clearly a retaliatory action by those editors with whom there was a disagreement over notability. I therefore move that this article be deleted on the grounds stated by Drsjpdc. Waynethegoblin (talk) 03:30, 28 October 2009 (UTC) — Waynethegoblin (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  • Keep per my reasons in the last AfD; nothing has changed since it was closed as "no consensus" yesterday. Dealing with the nominator's specific points: (1) WP:BLP doesn't apply as Howard Press isn't a living person. (A) The policies about notability of perpetrators cited refer to WP:BLP1E which doesn't apply as the man's criminal notability stretches across multiple events and prosecutions even before we take into account his claims as an inventor. They're also intended to address the question of whether it's appropriate for an article to be about the perpetrator, the victim, the crime itself or something different, rather than the question of whether Wikipedia should cover it at all. There's no suitable alternate article in this case. (B) As above, he's not notable only for one event. (C) The relevant policy statement for articles about the deceased is that they should be verifiable and well sourced; this article is (at least in relation to the potentially defamatory claims). (D) The need for privacy applies only to the biographies of living persons (Howard Press is deceased); the "victim" clause (those impacted by another's actions) isn't relevant here as the claims of duress made by the nominator within the article are unsourced. - DustFormsWords (talk) 03:35, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: What exactly *IS* he notable for, and how has that notability been established? User:Drsjpdc failed to show that Howard Press was notable for his patent, and there are no references with significant coverage of Mr. Press in regards to the criminal prosecutions. DigitalC (talk) 20:27, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep As Waynethegoblin says, the subject appears to be notable, and indeed the article seems to be rather well-sourced. WP:BLP1E would only enter in if the person was only notable for one event, which doesn't seem to be the case here. (Although the section concerning the negative aspects could use an edit for tone). However, the trial and conviction do appear to be notable portions of his life, so I'm not sure it's worth deleting simply because someone thinks it casts a relation in poor light, so long as NOR/NPOV/V are all met. (And since this isn't really a BLP, I'm not sure privacy is a strong argument so long as things are neutral and sourced). --Bfigura (talk) 03:39, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. The verifiable facts in this article do not give rise to notability. The crimes that the subject was convicted of do not meet the threshold of notability, and being issued a patent alone does not either. Were it accurate, the original claims might give rise to notability, but (despite numerous editors' good faith research efforts) they cannot be verified, and indeed appear to be false based on what sourced information has been identified. Bongomatic 04:08, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • DELETE - Figura, says these are "notable portions of his life". However the policy says that for criminals to be notable enough, they not only have to be MAJOR crimes, but that ALSO some other aspect of the life has to have ALSO been notable. Are you seriously equating the illicit manufacture of real pills with a trademark violation, to Jeffrey Dahmer? That's one of the examples?
You can't eat your cake and have it too. Earlier you all argued that the page should be deleted because the patent was not first, and because it proved nothing. I concede all that now. Thus, this FAILS to meet the criteria for Notability based on the WIKI policy for criminals alone.
And the policy for bios of deceased persons, stated above says that essentially the rules for living persons basically apply to the deceased. Bongo and I have rarely agreed./ I ask you to heed him now. - Д-рСДжП,ДС 05:07, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply - I didn't argue for delete, and neither did WaynetheGoblin, DGG, Bearian, or Rikatazz. Or for that matter, yourself, Drsjpdc. You made a convincing argument for Keep last time around; your difficulty is that you convinced people. There's some really excellent work occurring to improve the article and make it more NPOV, and I'd invite you to contribute to that effort and help present a balanced article about your father that will intrigue readers for years to come. - DustFormsWords (talk) 05:12, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment/Reply Drsjpdc, please don't put words (or analogies) into my mouth. If the article was about someone solely notable for their criminal acts, your comments would apply. However, what I (and a number of others) have asserted is that the subject is notable for multiple reasons, not just the criminal issues. Ie, we should be looking at WP:BLP1E, not solely focused on WP:N/CA (which is focused on the notability of criminal acts as stand-alone subjects). --Bfigura (talk) 16:32, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment reply - Ditto. I argued for deletion. Bearian (talk) 14:08, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep. The fact that the subject is notable, the article is properly sourced, and the main author admits his "mistake" in creating the article is all noted. The author has been well-acquainted with our WP:COI policy all along, and now that some unsavory details have been added to the article, as required by WP:NPOV, they have suddenly changed their mind. Let me remind the author and all readers about a fundamental part of the COI policy - The Law of Unintended Consequences - which reads:
Consequences of ignoring this guideline
Wikipedia's Law of Unintended Consequences
If you write in Wikipedia about yourself, your group, your company, or your pet idea, once the article is created, you have no right to control its content, and no right to delete it outside our normal channels. Content is not deleted just because somebody doesn't like it. Any editor may add material to or remove material from the article within the terms of our content policies. If there is anything publicly available on a topic that you would not want included in an article, it will probably find its way there eventually. More than one user has created an article only to find themself presented in a poor light long-term by other editors. If you engage in an edit war in an attempt to obtain a version of your liking you may have your editing access removed, perhaps permanently.
In addition, if your article is found not to be worthy of inclusion in the first place, it will be deleted, as per our deletion policies. Therefore, don't create promotional or other articles lightly, especially on subjects you care about.
You can't eat your cake and have it too. According to our policies, it is too late now for the author to do anything, especially because it is the fault of NPOV that the unsavory details have been added. Their pleadings actually violate the principles written above. They knew about this warning and chose to ignore it. Too bad. One could say that this is the just rewards of attempting to misuse Wikipedia for promotion. We don't write hagiographies here. This is an encyclopedia, not a free webhosting service where personal articles can be written and displayed. To seek to misuse Wikipedia to write a hagiography, and then seek to misuse the AfD process to undo the consequences of ignoring policies just won't do. One cannot rejoice when a policy-violating article somehow makes it through, but then regret when it gets revised into an article that abides by our NPOV policy. This AfD strikes right at the heart of our most sacred policy, NPOV. The proper response to all such AfDs is to keep it and make it even better. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:18, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Special pleadings and personal attacks that aren't appropriate in an AfD
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.


Thats all very cute. But how does one prove a negative. I was told over and over that he only plead guilty because the Prosecutors promised him a suspended sentence if he did. So he went across the street to he lawyer and basically fired him and came back to the Judge and accepted the guilty plea. Beause the whole thing was draining the family's resources. he did this for all of us. When they turned on him and asked for prison anyway, he tried to revoke the plea, but the Judge refused to allow it. Never heard of that kind of thing happening before? I rather doubt there is any documentation to show that the Federal prosecutors pulled this kind of dirty trick. Did you read the Appeal case you posted? It essentially tell that same story. It just leaves out the WHY would ha have accepted a plea, and the tried to revoke it?? Are we the National Enquirer?

More... did Bull Rangifer do some of the research to dredge up the dirt? If so then his opinion would be a COI too. Just asking. Д-рСДжП,ДС 05:26, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have made only one edit, the addition of a category, so retract your fangs. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:36, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fangs retracted. I was just asking, perhaps badly, if those who dug up the mud, should have the same voice now that their work is threatened? Wiki policy make it clear that this is not supposed to be the National Enquirer. - Д-рСДжП,ДС 05:42, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Absolutely they should; the same logic would have barred you from participating in the last AfD. Everyone gets a say, and it's worth noting that the "mud" was dug up specifically to support your claims that Howard Press was notable. As I've said before, if you feel that the criminal prosecutions are not an accurate reflection of his life as a whole, you are more than welcome to add additional (appropriately sourced) material to the article to balance them out. (I'm not saying this by way of further argument over this article but in an attempt to help you understand and exercise your options at this stage.)- DustFormsWords (talk) 05:52, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually, I was NOT aware of the COI policy when I started this article. As I said, it was my first (or nearly so). I became aware of it only later when another article was removed for COI issues. So, that statement is incorrect. - Д-рСДжП,ДС 05:46, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, it is very correct. On Aug. 19, the day you started the article, you were alerted to it on the talk page. You should have listened. Your COI has been discussed by yourself and others many times. -- Brangifer (talk) 14:24, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

1.: I admit that I advocated too strongly for the preservation of an article on my dad. He was a good man and didn't deserve this.
2.: However, I also concede that at about the end of the discussion in AfD 2, (when It was too late to concede). I read the research that found a couple of other patents which PRE-Dated his (I'm sure he never knew about them), not Consolazio's , but another WAS found, which clearly DID use a cellulose base to deliver medication over time, and thus I have to concede that the Press patent was not the first to have this idea. By the time I saw that, the article had taken a dark turn.
3.:In any event, since the patent was not the first, one of you proved that this means that Bongo was right all along about the notability issue; and since the "crime" is a 40+yr old trademark infringement case, in which no one was ever alleged to have been injured, it hardly rises to "notability" under WIKI rules (above) that talk about "major crimes" like Dahmer; the analogy is even ridiculous, and we don't stick to the rules, would lower the credibility of WIKI. If one actually reads what I posted at the start of this. I certainly have received a WIKI education here.
Can we spell Schädenfreud? Д-рСДжП,ДС 14:52, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep For Now. A number of editors have enhanced the article very recently, adding verifiable facts and improving its neutrality. I repeat what was said in the previous AfD: the article is in a great state of flux, and every day new documented facts about Howard Press's life are coming to light. The latest request to delete this article was a knee-jerk reaction right in the middle of some of the best research that had been done on the subject. Certainly we should give the editors the benefit of the doubt to continue their research and improve the notability of the subject. The decision to delete this article should be a slow process, and should be postponed for several months.
  • Second Point: Drsjpdc cannot give an unbiased account of whether his father's crimes were minor or major, notable or not, so his opinions must be discarded. Counterfeiting drugs in the U.S. is a serious felony--thousands of people could get sick or die--but also a crime that is quite rare and unique. Most felonies are not notable as they are run-of-the-mill local offenses, but in this case presumably General Pharmacal would have needed great sophistication (tablet presses, packaging, labeling, surreptitious dealings, interstate transportation, conspiracy) to undertake this operation. Local, state, and federal agents had to combine to shut it down.
  • Drsjpdc's claim that somehow Press, president of General Pharmacal, was somehow oblivious or uninvolved in the counterfeiting at his own company (over the course of a year) is absolutely preposterous. A reading of the indictment and complaints proves the opposite.
  • Drsjpdc notes that his father's offenses resulted in only one year in Federal prison, and that this should minimize its severity. Yet Liptower was correct in stating that Press was "sentenced to three years"; presumably Press got off on good behavior. Most relevantly, the judge in the case warned the conspirators never to set foot again in the pharmaceutical industry, for their next sentence would be a "life sentence." Evidently the U.S. District Court for the District of New Jersey and the United States Court of Appeals for the Third District thought the crimes were notable.
  • Besides the notoriety of the crimes themselves, Howard Press himself may be notorious as a repeat offender. Drsjpdc edited what Liptower had posted in the article, changing "Press faced new felony charges yet again several years later for an even larger offense" to "Press faced new felony charges several years later for mulitple [sic] issues related to the original charges." This is disputable. The second indictments, which came down from a New Jersey grand jury on October 27, 1965, appear to be quite distinct from the first (General Pharmacal 1960) case, with a completely different set of conspirators, and a different set of charges. The first case involved interstate shipments of counterfeit nationally trademarked drugs; the second, 18 counts of distributing counterfeit Dexedrine and Dexamyl Spansules, fraud, and conspiracy. In the first case, agents had been probing General Pharmacal from 1959 to 1960; in the second, federal agents made a series of undercover purchases beginning in August 1964. Drsjpdc wants us to believe these were one in the same. In reality, there were at least two separate crimes; what happened was that the first indictments were dismissed in favor of a single, consolidated indictment. Furthermore, evidence is now surfacing that Press defrauded Lowey back in 1951, and Key Corporation in or around 1954, etc. If so, this is not one isolated incident but indeed a case of a serious perpetrator who was on the FDA's watch list for many years.
  • Third Point: The fact that the crimes took place in the past, or are mostly unknown to our generation, is irrelevant. If Wikipedia editors unearth truths that contribute to our understanding and knowledge of a topic, then it should not matter if the events took place 5, 50, or 500 years ago.
  • Lastly, I will repeat for the nth time that Drsjpdc must not make inflammatory, unsubstantiated accusations either here in the AfD, his article, the talk page, or anywhere else. He is advised to retract his statement at the top of this AfD that Forest Laboratories, a publicly traded company, is somehow responsible for crimes for which his father was indicted. If on the other hand, Drsjpdc is so certain that this is the case, and can supply documented proof, then I welcome him to retract his latest request for deletion and enter such factual evidence in the body of the article.--Rikatazz (talk) 16:22, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • DELETE DELETE DELETE: What a mess. Drsjpdc wrongfully creates a glowing article about his dad, and labours away on it. Bongomatic rightly sniffs out the original research bonanza (citing a page of the 1930 US Census book listing dad's birth, come on!), and proposes the 2nd AfD. In the meantime (Oct 27 GMT time), a single purpose account, Liptower comes through and rifles[11] the article with this criminal stuff written as negatively as possible, including citations to court documents. Liptower, most likely, has some connection to Hans Lowey or someone else who was adverse to Press. E.g., the obscure 1962 book cited for the "notorious" quote does not mention Press by name, nor do the 1960 articles in Chemical Week or Newsweek. The short 8/6/60 NY Times article mentions Press as one of three arrested. The 1961 NY Times article is 121 words and lists press as one of six people. (I have access and can send the short articles to anyone if they want to see them.) All subsequent court proceedings, including the 1965 indictment, are cites to court documents without evidence the proceedings received any news coverage, and there is no basis for me to conclude its not all just run of the mill criminal allegations and civil litigation of no interest to anyone else except the litigants. "Howard A. Press" gets 19 hits on google, a few of which are hits to the actual reported cases, but none of which are coverage in sources reliable or otherwise. Searching for "Howard Press" without the initial is problematic because of hits to printing companies, but "Howard Press" and "General Pharmacal" gets 0 hits outside wiki mirrors.
So, in my opinion, the notability of this WHOLE article rests on two brief press mentions in the NY Times in 1960-61 about some criminal allegations completely unrelated to the mass of patent stuff otherwise covered. The 2nd AFD closed as no consensus, and some infrequent contributors were among the keeps. Among regular contributors (and I'm not saying infrequent contributors deserve no weight, but this is clearly a screwy case), DGG was a weak keep, and DustFromWords was a keep contingent on "if the claims made in the article lead section are backed up by sources." I cannot deny I feel for Drsjpdc's personal appeal for deletion, but undoing this one is right both on policy and equity. P.S. I also ask possible SPA Rikatazz to disclose any connection to this mess - you have copies of 1960s indictments? --Milowent (talk) 17:08, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
To establish that Press wasn't a one-offense criminal (and to counter your view that Liptower based his whole section on just two short NY Times articles), I have added new citations to FDA Papers and FDA Report on Enforcement and Compliance that report new counterfeiting in 1962-64; see the talk section as well. As I said, the article is in flux and new factual references are being added, so perhaps postpone this deletion decision until editors can finish. You might consider searching for "Howard Press" or "Howard A. Press" on google/books too.--Rikatazz (talk) 18:54, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Rikatazz, Errr? did you miss my question to you? I also ask possible SPA Rikatazz to disclose any connection to this mess - you have copies of 1960s indictments? Cause if you didn't miss it, its extremely telling. Its obvious you care strongly for this article for some reason. In any event, these two FDA docs don't show notability, as the FDA has reporting requirements that require the compilation of this type of stuff, and we don't have articles on every FDA-related criminal matter or counterfeit drug maker. If you got newspaper reports covering these events beyond the two NY times snips, we should look at them. Of course Liptower did not base his additions on the two small NY Times articles, he has his own sources. I went ahead and checked "Howard A. Press" on google books and get 15 hits -- there's nothing beyond that 1967 FDA Papers citation you found; no new sources found via "Howard Press" and drugs either.--Milowent (talk) 19:33, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Unless I missed something, the criminal claims are also sourced to the relevant trial transcript, which anyone with access to the relevant legal libraries can read. There is absolutely no question that the man was arrested and convicted in the 1960s in relation to these offences - the son admits it - so why are we questioning the sources? - DustFormsWords (talk) 20:38, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Dust, generally trial transcripts are not available in legal libraries. There may be for some cases (like O.J.), but not usually. I highly doubt this one is, but Rikatazz could chime in and tell me if I'm wrong. I'm not questioning that trial transcripts or court documents are relevant for verifying facts, but they doesn't show notability. Note, by the way, that the article doesn't say he was convicted for the 1961 indictments, just that he was indicted. The proceedings later in the 60s show the guy pled guilty under the 1965 indictment, and later tried to withdraw his plea, which was denied. Looks like a dispute with his attorney to some extent. I don't see how these crimes confer notability on Mr. Press.--Milowent (talk) 20:53, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • Delete:Fails WP:N; however I see no reason why the article shouldn't be userfied to one of the account of one of the passionate editors arguing for keep. Clearly, a lot time went into the article so perhaps one day notability will be satisfied, perhaps his son will write a book. Mathieas (talk) 20:27, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete (Disambiguation): After Dr Press wrote his last appeal, which I see a few courageous souls have called for what it was, I too read the “pre-existing” patents, and now also agree that there was at least one that looks an awful lot like his father’s. Thus, I have to concede, like the doc that the original page also did not qualfy under WIKI rules for notability. I hope this ends the twisting of my previous statement, and makes it clear that I too voted for DELETE Waynethegoblin (talk) 23:02, 28 October 2009 (UTC) Removed second !vote from same user. Bongomatic 23:16, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete basically per my reasoning in the previous AfD. The sources added near the end of that discussion and since should be fine, but I am not seeing the sort of in depth coverage of the person or the series of events that would make this a notable topic. A merge to General Pharmacal might be viable, but I am not at the moment convinced. - 2/0 (cont.) 23:49, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Milowent has been to my talk page politely requesting some further discussion, and I've there laid out a more extensive dissection of my reasons the article should be kept. They're a bit long and they're really only a restatement of what I've said in this and the last debate, but if anyone wants to read them you can find them here. Please leave replies on the AfD debate, not my talk page, to avoid splitting the discussion.- DustFormsWords (talk) 23:52, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: The problem with what you stated on his talk page resolves around the first paragraph, particularly point 3. It states "If the inventor of time release medication were to be Press, he would therefore be notable.". I agree with this, but we have no reliable secondary sources that states that he was the inventor of time release medication. You then say "All of the above is, as I understand it, not in issue and backed up by reliable sources." [sic]. But this isn't the truth - it isn't backed up by reliable sources. DigitalC (talk) 01:30, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment

BTW: I can swear and attest that "Waynethegoblin" and I are not the same person. I have ONE account only. Also, I am 62 years old, and this sounds like a name that a much younger person would use. And, after reading what sure looks like long saved paperwork, I too would like an explanation of the possible COI of one of the "pro" voters. Д-рСДжП,ДС 23:54, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

PS: I would like to repeat that I have learned a lot since I made this mess. I sincerely apologize to all those who put effort into this, and thank all those who saw through the disaster. - Д-рСДжП,ДС 23:58, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - The crime and trial received very little attention, and the patent and dispute received practically none. I don't buy into the WP:BLP claims because this isn't a biography of a living person. But the lack of notability lets me lean toward delete. To give full disclosure, Drsjpdc did leave me a message on my talk page asking for advice on how to deal with the "mess" this article became, but he did not ask that I participate in the AfD. I decided to do so on my own, for my own reasons, because I don't feel the article belongs in the encyclopedia by our usual standards for biographies. -- Atama頭 16:25, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It takes time to unearth the facts. We shouldn't race to delete an article because AfD voters do a 10-second google search for the subject and come up with few hits. I just added information to the talk page that suggests that indeed there was widespread publicity about the 1960 crime, and that, contrary to Milowent's assertion, Press was clearly mentioned in the Chemical Week article. Just because you don't have instant online access to everything doesn't make the topic less truthful or real. Question: just how long does this AfD process last?--Rikatazz (talk) 17:39, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The AfD process generally takes 7 days. DigitalC (talk) 18:13, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, Rikatazz: "I also ask possible SPA Rikatazz to disclose any connection to this mess - you have copies of 1960s indictments? And the merits, OK, I see the quote you put on the talk page in chemical week, press' name is listed (the google search shows no hits on that article, whether you can read the article or not, it says 0 hits are contained in the article, that was the source of my prior assertion). I have done far more than a "10-second google search", including accessing the NYTimes pay and highbeam article library pay archives. Also, the article you quoted says "widespread publicity" is to still to come, but I don't see that it happened. Its a crime that had no impact beyond basic reporting, and those generally are not notable. BTW, since you seem to know a lot about this stuff, whatever happened to the 1961 indictment? The article doesn't say. And whatever happened to Lowey's SEC's investigations, that popped up in my searches as well?--Milowent (talk) 19:11, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Could someone do the favour of going through the 36 sources currently in the article, and making a list of secondary sources that actually mention Mr. Press? Such a list could be located on the dicussion tab of the AfD, or on the article's talk page. DigitalC (talk) 18:13, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I have since reviewed the references, and found that there were only 3 secondary sources that mention Mr. Press. 1) Joseph O. Haff, "Bogus Pills Laid to 3 in Hoboken," The New York Times, August 6, 1960 2)"Six Drug Men Indicted, Charged with Counterfeiting Trademarks on Pills," The New York Times, March 29, 1961 3)Chemical Week, Volume 87, Chemical Markets Inc: 1960, pp. 18, 45.
  • Delete: I stand by my !vote from the 2nd nomination, in that this article still fails WP:N. The article is titled "Howard Press". However, from my review of the references, there are no independent secondary sources that give Mr. Press significant coverage. I encourage anyone who has voted keep to show me how the references have established notability. DigitalC (talk) 20:22, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment
    I have refrained from doing any more editing of this enquirer article, but I ask my colleagues to look at the following:

1.- there is NO reference to support the change that was made to now say that Press was "in business with Lowey" in Bonded laboratories, is or ever was true. As I have stated for disclosure purposes, I lived through the whole nightmare, and I never heard my dad say ANYTHING about having worked for Bonded laboratories. I did know that he knew Lowey and he blamed him his whole life for having stolen his invention; and, 2.- he then says that "Lowey signed a licensing agreement with Key Corporation"; there is no proof that it was Lowey who signed anything. Since he seems to have access to Lowey's or Forest's long archived papers; where is the contract? no reference? retract the statement; and, 3.- he then claims that Lowey (changed from Press) signed a non available "licensing agreement". NB: the two references listed #s 7,&8 have nothing to do with a licensing agreement; 7 is another reference in the 1959 PDR, and 8, is a BMJ article having nothing to do with any relationship between Press and Lowey and nothng to do with a contract; and, 4.- the entire statement:

- agents began covertly investigating General Pharmacal's Hoboken office in connection with a bootleg drug operation that they believed Press to be running. Agents determined that the company was manufacturing illicit tablets and pills bearing the trademarked names of nationally recognized drug companies, and that the misbranded drugs were counterfeits of genuine products

is unsupported by ANY reference. Was the editor an FDA agent? From whence did he manufacture this whole statement?; and, 5.- reference 14, also only shows that a study of Nitroglyn was done, and published by the Heart Association. What has it to do with the controversy?; and, 6.- the entire statement:

Press and five others began shipping imitation Dexedrine and Dexamyl Spansules in late 1962. Starting in August 1964, FDA agents made a series of seven undercover purchases of these illicit drugs, and by October 1964 had found more than a million counterfeit capsules and tablets. On October 27, 1965, Press was indicted under an 18-count charge including fraud, violation of the criminal provisions of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act, and a conspiracy in violation of that Act.

is unsupported by any of the references. It sure looks like someone who wrote that, has an ax to grind here. Where is the documentation for this? The couple of citations are listings of documents apparently not available to us today. Where did the editor find them, and considering the claims made, we should either see them or the claim should be retracted.

Д-рСДжП,ДС 18:11, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

References which actually mention Press are: 1,
3 (census)
5 is a broken link
9,10,11,27,28, 29 & 30, 32, 33, 34, & 35 ??? we can't examine: these a re apparently ONLY available to the editor with the ax, and the 40 year old archive of this stuff
24, 25 and 26 mention ONLY the corporation
31 mentions the sentence, but also list others I never heard of.
Д-рСДжП,ДС 18:24, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also, BTW, please notice that despite that Forest Laboratories (Which I did not know until now still existed), has its own page on WIKI, (and due to a now understood COI on my part) I didn't add the references and controversy that could possibly hurt them by adding references showing that thei founding was grounded in some shady dealings with re: this angel Lowey (their Chairman-of-the-Board) having been cited by the SEC for Securities fraud, etc (See reference #6). And check out #5, which shows that the 1960' incarnation of Forest was sued by others for other kinds of fraud as well.
All is not what the criminal record seems to show. - Д-рСДжП,ДС 19:16, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I just removed what was reference 8 in the article because it had nothing to do with the proposition cited, so the numbers above will be off. If trying to compare to numbers above, check prior revisions to match up, as I'm am looking through these cites (many of which are to bare URLs) and may have to edit some more.--Milowent (talk) 19:44, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete since I don't believe that the "bust" or counterfeit operation would meet the inclusion critera of a stand alone article (based on WP:NOTNEWS), there certainly shouldn't be an article about one of the people involved with it. Aside from that there is the process patent, and in my eyes there is nothing to establish notability there.--kelapstick (talk) 21:06, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I might not be on top of the debate; is there any genuine dispute that Press was President of General Pharmacal during the relevant period and had partial or full control over its operations? That's backed by the court transcripts for the convictions, surely? - DustFormsWords (talk) 01:30, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, there are no court transcripts of any convictions, because he was never convicted of anything. I've fixed those assertions in the article. For the 1961 indictment (the one covered by the 121-word NY Times article), there is no information about what happened to that, which makes me suspect it was dropped, though we have no idea either way. The 1965 indictment -- which was never covered by any news coverage anyone can find -- ended when Press pled guilty to one of 6 counts (presumably the other 5 counts were then dropped, but again, we don't know). Press' guilty plea came during a short period of time when he didn't have an attorney, and he was not allowed to withdraw the guilty plea. I learned this stuff by reading the court opinions, which don't demonstrate any notability to this matter. / All that aside, the 1960 NY Times blurb says the 37 year old Press was the President of General Pharmacal at the time of the raid. There is no press coverage I have seen explaining what Press' role was, or anyone else's role, and without an actual trial nothing ever HAD to be proven in court.--Milowent (talk) 01:53, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Interesting! Thanks Milowent! I'm not sure a conviction is necessary to found notability - being the controlling mind of a company alleged to have been America's largest counterfeit drug producer would in my view be enough - but you're right that a source will be. (None of the below addresses that issue, it's just for use in improving the article and finding sources.) This document indicates that prosecution was still ongoing in June 1962 (it's an appeal by only one of the defendants so doesn't mention Press). And while I'm citing sources, on an unrelated matter, this source provides support for General Pharmacal manufacturing Obes-Ebb tablets in 1959, by way of a destruction of some defective units. - DustFormsWords (talk) 02:08, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't even think 10 convictions of a crime would confer notability, unless they "received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject." Being charged with a crime, or being a hoax floating balloon, can confer notability if it receives significant coverage. Here, even Press' guilty plea received no press of which we are aware. We also have no idea what Press' role was - I could argue he knew nothing substantive, and there is no source either way. I have read the June 1962 case opinion, and you cannot tell if anything was pending against Press at that point.--Milowent (talk) 02:18, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. I haven't gone through the sources in detail, but judging from the discussion above, this looks like a case of WP:SYN and WP:OR: an article created through stitching together mentions in primary sources rather than reporting from secondary sources. There doesn't seem to be the required level of coverage in independent reliable sources to meet our notability requirements. Robofish (talk) 02:32, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I said weak keep last time, to a more confused version of the article. The present version is stronger, and coherent, and better sourced. It's absurd to say he was not convicted, because he pled guilty and was sentenced to prison. If a standard textbook cites the criminal scheme as a notorious example, he';s notable. DGG ( talk ) 03:12, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • DGG - Please look at the sources, or instead to DigitalC's comment about them above. The reason they look better is because bare URLS have been changed to look like actual cites, but the sources are no better quality. There is no coverage in reliable sources of the criminal conviction/guilty plea. The court cases don't say he was convicted, because he pled guilty, though i realize news articles can be loose with these terms. As law.com defines it, a conviction is "n. the result of a criminal trial in which the defendant has been found guilty of a crime." And that never happened. Also, the book hardly looks like a standard textbook, and does not even mention Press. Also, regarding the original reason this article was created (Press's son wanting to tell the world it was really HIS dad who created time-release medication, not Lowey), there is no coverage in any reliable sources about Press' alleged contributions to time release medication.--Milowent (talk) 03:21, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • FYI, the law.com definition is a little misleading. On the basis of a plea of guilty, the court (usually) finds that the defendant is guilty. (It can refuse to make that finding despite the plea in some circustances, such as where the defendant is found not fit to plead, or where the court believes that the plea is not an honest plea (eg the defendant is covering for the real criminal)). Following a finding of guilt, a conviction almost inevitably follows during the sentencing process (although again a person can be found guilty without conviction, typically when the charge is technically made out but so inconsequential as to deserve not even the punishment of conviction). So yes, even on a plea of guilty we'd expect to find record of conviction. - DustFormsWords (talk) 03:32, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • In answer to Dustforms comment and reference; You are grapsing at straws to support the unsupportable! Obese-ebb was General Pharmacal's OWN brand, generally sold to local bariatricians (weight-loss) doctors who gave them out like water. That was the 60's. I actualyl recall that. Dad was really annoyed that they thought this batch failed purity tests. He hired a chemist-specialist just to make sure that didn;t happen again. - Д-рСДжП,ДС 03:25, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hey Drsjdpc, I'm no longer trying to actively argue this; there's some discussion going on that Milowent's findings re sources for the conviction do undermine the notability argument, which I'm inclined to agree with. So really right now I'm just only getting involved to correct some misapprehensions about what conclusions can and cannot be validly drawn from the remaining sources on the criminal matters. - DustFormsWords (talk) 03:32, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like a further waste of time to me.
Isn't it clear that a consensus has been reached this is at least 2+ to one in favor of Delete. How much longer does this torture continue unnecessarily? - Д-рСДжП,ДС 04:08, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Seven days seems like a long time in this type of situation, especially since there is no clear consensus. The better the article gets, the better case for keeping it. One cannot deny that being the president of a company that was the major supplier of counterfeit drugs in the USA is NOT a small matter. That's very significant and notable, and that a repetition of a crime he had already confessed to is very typical. A pattern has been established. That he later seems to have been a good father and decent citizen is nice to know. That doesn't change history. You have the makings of a new biography here, where you can tell your version of the story, including the details of what actually happened, why he continued in crime, how the family reacted to it, what he told his family, and what he didn't tell them: "Betrayal - The Inside Story on Howard Press. The Family's Perspective". -- Brangifer (talk) 05:49, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
We don't write original research biographies on wikipedia-your comment is incredible support for deletion. And as this is mostly original research in here, its not surprising that you have the facts wrong -- he was not convicted more than once. He was the president, but there is no coverage whatsoever regarding what his role was in the counterfeiting, the meager amount written about it never mentioned Press except for the fact that he was arrested in 1960 and indicted in 1961--for charges that apparently never resulted in a conviction. we don't judge notability solely because someone "sounds important" -- there should be significant coverage in independent sources showing notability.--Milowent (talk) 11:39, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Are you a family member who is in denial? It sure sounds like it after the way you are twisting this. Note that I didn't use the word "convicted" in my comment. I noted that he was involved in two separate cases of crime, and he spent time in jail for one of them. -- Brangifer (talk) 14:27, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Haha. No, to be clear, I knew nothing about any of these people until I stumbled upon this article on AfD patrol. I will admit, however, that this AfD is getting under my skin a bit so I almost anticipated someone would ask that! I don't think I truly appreciated the importance of Wikipedia:No original research before this one. I highly suspect that Rikatazz, the primary champion of keeping at this point, is very close to the litigation because he apparently has unpublished court materials from the 1960s and 1970s. He also added a number of the sources, aside from some added by SPA Liptower, who first brought up the criminal allegations. I've asked 3 times above what Rikatazz's connection is, but he has not chosen to respond at this point.--Milowent (talk) 14:43, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment -Actually for accuracy sake, it was the corporation which was found to have been involved in this, and the President was arrested exactly because he ran the company. That was what he told us, and this seems to be supported by the dearth of any evidence that he knew what was going on Nowhere has anyone shown that Press knew that all this was going on, or actively participated in it. Also the laundry list of "co-conspirators" that no one in the family ever heard of before, and he told us that too. Nowhere has anywhere shown that he was arrested with counterfeit pills in his personal possession. NOWHERE. All that, frankly supports his story. People are arrested all the time for things they do not personally commit. I made an error, caused by not yet knowing the rules here, but certain editors who should are ignoring them, and one had to wonder why? I inadvertently, out of dedication to a great father's memory, created this huge mess. I have apologized to my WIKI colleagues already several times. When does this end? -Д-рСДжП,ДС 14:40, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that СДжП,ДС. An AfD normally runs for seven days. But you are making an important point -- there is absolutely no evidence that Press was personally involved in the "ring." He may well have been, he may not have been, but we simply don't know. The circumstances of his guilty plea on one of the 6 counts (based on reading the court opinions) are very screwy -- my reading is that he ran out of money to pay his attorneys and freaked out after one another defendant went to trial and was found guilty--but even this is highly speculative and not covered by any sources. We have no idea what that other defendant did, but its quite possible it made Press think (when he had no counsel) it didn't make a difference what he actually did, and that the guilty plea he was offered was his only option. Am I the only one who thinks of Richard Jewell (not strictly analogous though) --Milowent (talk) 14:51, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Right! If one actually read all of what I wrote,(and YOU obviously did) I said before that dad (he was pretty forthcoming for a guilty guy) told us that he was offered a plea with suspended sentence in exchange for a guilty pleading. As soon as he fired the lawyer (Fischbein), the prosecutors conveniently forgot about their promises and he went to jail. If we re-read that screwy appellate cite; that's why he tried to take back the plea!!! The Judge and the prosecutors had a "gotcha" moment. (Kind of like this article) (law of unintended consequences; right) This all makes sense now. - Д-рСДжП,ДС 16:14, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • References Provided. At the request of Milowent and other editors, I have posted two items on my talk page: the 1965 FDA Report on Enforcement and Compliance and the November 13, 1973 summary judgment in the case Press v. Forest Laboratories, et. al. Milowent and other editors: please re-write changes you may have made to the main article, after you have seen these items. Let me know if there are other items you need.--Rikatazz (talk) 22:49, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: So one again, if one actually reads all that old garbage, Press filed his suit more than six years after the fact, and this was one of the major reasons cited by the court for dismissing the case. The whole suit looks like he was pissed off at the theft of his patent, anddecided to use the courts to tie up Forest over this, frankly inappropriately. I would have advised against doing that, had I been a lawyer, or even consulted.
As to the convictions; here again there is no wording which directly ties Press to holding the contraband. It sort of hints at that, re the airport matter, but it never says that. It says that they found the goods at the home of one of those names I intriguingly never, ever heard before. Also, frankly, in my estimation this supports my dad's story, in that there were people he really didn't even KNOW, doing this stuff BEHIND his back; allowed into his plant by Etis, and he just got nailed for it's being his place. Nothing here to controvert that story at all! - Д-рСДжП,ДС 23:49, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
And, BTW; I TOO would like to know from Rikatazz, where he is getting this stuff? There HAS to be a COI connection with Lowey or Forest; SOMEONE who would have carried a grudge all these years to save that trash. - Д-рСДжП,ДС 23:53, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As long as Rikatazz is providing V & RS, and is not disruptive, (s)he is under no obligation to out themself. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:59, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No one needs to out themselves, as (edited to add): in my opinion its already obvious to me that Rikatazz is related to someone who was adverse to Press. That's the only way he would have these unpublished court materials, so its a clear conflict of interest which editors should simply be aware of.--Milowent (talk) 18:29, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree, and ask that you please strikeout your comment. I believe that the documents were available through LEXIS.com, and as such there is no clear COI. Further, a COI is not an issue unless the editor is failing to abide by WP:NPOV when editing. DigitalC (talk) 19:54, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
DigitalC is quite right. It's also rather ironic that Milowent supports the author of this article when the author regrets that his non-NPOV version gets fixed to a more NPOV version, and then Milowent seeks to attack an anonymous editor who actually follows NPOV by including sourced material that improves the article. COI's LUC is directed at the author's attempts to own a non-NPOV version of the article, and Milowent's attempts to support him. Such attempts should be rebuffed and the article improved with more good sources. It is Press that has the COI problem because he used his COI to write a hagiography about his father, and knowingly left out negative details he knew about, while Rikatazz has no problem because (s)he isn't violating policy, but is actually bringing more balance to the article. -- Brangifer (talk) 22:11, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Who I am attacking now? I think Rika and I get along fine, but I'm not blind either. I edited the comment above slightly. It does appear that 1973 unpublished summary judgment opinion (which I haven't analysed yet, but will) is available via lexis, though it was never cited as such (with the lexis cite) before.--Milowent (talk) 06:43, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per the lack of reliable sources. (The rationale is copied from Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Howard Press (2nd nomination) since it is still applicable.) The article contains many sources, including this article from The New York Times, but the majority of them (including the NYT article) don't even mention Howard Press.

    The article is primarily composed of original research. If any parts of the article were useful, I would recommend a merge to sustained release per Cyclopia, but the lack of sources that discuss Howard Press being the "the first to develop a process for time release or sustained release medication" means that this assertion is original research. The rest of the sources and assertions in the article also violate Wikipedia:Synthesis and Wikipedia:Original research. Original research does not belong on Wikipedia, so this should be deleted. Incubation would be helpful if this article could be improved, but due to the lack of sources, I strongly doubt that this is possible.

    Howard Press fails WP:BIO and WP:ANYBIO because there are no sources that would allow him to pass WP:GNG, and there are no sources that verify the claim that his patent contributed much to his academic field. If he did indeed contribute much to his field, I would expect some sources on Google Scholar; however, there are none.

    My own searches for sources on Google News Archive (1, 2, and 3) and Google Books (1, 2, and 3) return no valid sources that could be used to construct a biography, so I conclude that Howard Press is non-notable. Cunard (talk) 06:04, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • DELETE: Stephen, you may find it hard to believe that I, LIPTOWER, agree with you that the article needs to be deleted as soon as possible. The whole thing is a tragedy of contributors with feelings vs. people who want to stick only to hard facts. Maybe I should not have opened the can of worms but by the same reckoning maybe you Stephen should have been more polite yourself. I believe you have learned an important life lesson. At the same time, you are learning a few things about your dad. You were either too young to understand, or your dad never told you what happened, or whatever. This will be my last entry in Wikipedia, so there is no need to respond, I won’t reply anyway. I am going to tell you the whole story, and I am not going to back up with pointless citations and references. Whether you choose to believe it or not is of no concern. Just read it. Then re-read it, over and over, until it sinks in. Think about it. This is what happened.
Long narrative constituting original research, but demonstrating that the original research in the article is but one interpretation of the primary sources referenced
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.


Your dad was a promising young chemist, well educated, good looking, and ambitious. Hans Lowey, who ran Bonded Labs, admired Howie, hiring him around 1950. At the time, Bonded had two business lines, a pharmaceutical business and a vitamin operation. Howie was brought on to handle the vitamin line so Hans could focus on what turned out to be the more lucrative tablet business. One of Hans’s customers was his good friend Howard W. Stern at Key Corporation. Previously, Hans had developed a method (he actually developed dozens of methods and throughout his life had more patents than anyone) of coating tablets that improved on the old enteric, delayed-release technology. He signed a licensing agreement with Key in early 1950. Much work had to be done, including trials and studies, and things were put on hold for some time by the Korean War, when the firm was called upon by the U.S. government to developed long-acting salt tablets for soldiers. Howie and Hans collaborated on this and probably many other beneficial products in the early 1950s. However, Howie was not satisfied with his role in the firm and wanted more.
One day in 1951, Hans came into the office very early in the morning and caught Howie in his office with a large sheet of paper, trying to copy Hans’s signature. When questioned by Hans, your dad had no answer. Hans fired him on the spot.
The formulation for Key’s sustained action products were known to no one but Hans—not even Stern knew it, and not Howie—and the methodology was kept in a sealed envelope, to be opened only if Hans were to die or if he failed to fulfill his end of the agreement. It is clear that the formulation as described in your dad’s U.S. patent was not the one used in Nitroglyn, but rather Hans’s method. I will explain this shortly. During 1952 and early 1953, Hans and Stern ran clinical trials of the sustained action drugs and commissioned independent research studies. Your dad obviously got word that sustained release products were coming out, and around June 1953 he determined to get a piece of the action and file a U.S. patent bearing his name. Hans quickly sued and said that such work was done jointly while your dad was an employee at Bonded. The two agreed on a joint ownership of that patent and that Hans would pay royalties to Howie for any products developed using that method. Problem was, no such products were (or ever were) manufactured with the Press patent. Nitroglyn and the other Key launches used the Lowey method, which we are certain about because the marketing materials from Key speak about therapeutic constant levels of pH as the medicine is exposed to enormous peaks and valleys of acidity and alkalinity in the stomach and small intestine. This was the essence of Hans’s approach—he solved the problem of uniform pH—and nothing in your dad’s patent speaks about this. Hans paid some token sums to Howie over time, and Howie didn’t complain—at least not until 1956, when he sued for an accounting. If Howie was so certain that he was being defrauded, then why did he wait for three years before suing? Here’s why:
A year or so after the launch of Nitroglyn, Howie called Stern secretly and offered to manufacture sustained action Nitroglyn for him at a price below what Bonded was offering. Stern foolishly agreed. Trouble was, Howie believed all along the formulation in his patent was the one used in the Key products, and that it worked. It did not. Howie and his company thus produced defective tablets for Key. Stern contacted Hans and told him the merchandise was substandard. Key stopped paying royalties to Bonded and the FDA was brought in. However, when it was determined that Key’s drugs were not up to specification, but Bonded’s were, Stern was caught in a lie by his friend Hans. Stern broke down and admitted his mistake in judgment to Hans. Key immediately paid all the monies due to Bonded and Stern swore never to work with your dad again. Stern was so devastated by this debacle that, irony of ironies, he died of a heart attack a few days later.
This is the genesis of your dad’s fall into wrongdoing. The General Pharmacal scare of the 1960s may not be remembered by this generation, but it was in the papers, at least in New Jersey. Some readers here are old enough to remember the Tylenol scare of 1982. Pharmacal was similar, but in miniature. Just what was Howie doing, president of a shady operation for years, run in a secret warehouse, amid dingy conditions? I find it hard to swallow that he was "asleep at the switch" for a whole year 1959-1960. General Pharmacal wasn’t a massive operation—it had a dozen or fewer employees, and everyone knew everyone else for years. And why, after the police closed down the company permanently, didn’t Howie learn his lesson? He got right back into counterfeiting again in 1962 with a new bunch of shady characters, and was convicted and sentenced for a new felony. You once wrote that Howie has never been compensated for his "contribution to humanity." A tragedy!
Stephen, you and your family suffered through years because your father couldn’t straighten himself out. He lashed out at Hans, Bonded, Forest, and others around him, all to no avail. He held life-long grudge against Hans which you inherited, wrongly. You are an esteemed doctor of Chiropractic, not a vindictive man. Why did you write this article in the first place, withholding your dad’s felony charges and jail time? Was Wikipedia a means for you to be heard, a pulpit for you to continue this "vendetta," as the judge called it, and re-open old wounds from 36 years ago?
Howard Press absolutely does not deserve an article. Notable or not, the story is too troubled. Just look at it: a biography section, light fluff about PROW, then a Nitroglyn section, then the crimes and suits. The whole section on Nitroglyn falls apart because the subject did not have anything to do with it, and it reads more like an article on Hans than Howie. The section on the crimes is going to be edited and re-edited hundreds of time, without any purpose. Administrators: please DELETE this article, as per Stephen’s wishes. Editors, you can serve the Wikipedia community better in many other ways, for instance by improving the article on time-release medication. There you can stick to facts and avoid feelings. If this article is not deleted, then some other editor will propose another AfD, and so on, a waste of everyone’s time. Good riddance.--Liptower (talk) 20:04, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
— Liptower (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Annotation for aid of the drama-interested reader: Liptower is the editor who came thru about 4 days ago and added the criminal charge sections to the article.--Milowent (talk) 21:53, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Just a comment reflecting the significant changes to the article.
  • The article now has numerous references.
  • The references that are used to back all significant claims in the article are primary sources.
  • The interpretation of those claims is anything but uncontroversial.
  • The entire article remains original research (though probably better original research than it was at the time of the nomination).
  • There remains no legitimate claim to notability for the subject of the article (even in the original research).
Bongomatic 02:53, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
With respect, Seb az86556, it appears that you are not familiar with the procedural history. Here:
  • between the second nomination and this one, the article was dramatically rewritten; and
  • the main proponent of "keep" in the second round changed his opinion.
The procedural issues, where entrenched views hope to appeal to a broader constituency or hope that previous participants don't chime in again, are totally inapplicable. Bongomatic 06:26, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Not really. The reasoning is quite....reasonable! It should be an AFD policy that there must go a certain amount of time between AFDs. I'd say two weeks at the minimum. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:30, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(a) That isn't policy, and changes to policy should be addressed elsewhere.
(b) Such a policy, should it be implemented, should and would (in order to gain consensus) provide for carve-outs for new information, material changes to the article, or changes to the views of significant contributers to the previous AfD discussion. Bongomatic 06:42, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Despite the potential, the reality seems to be that abuse of AfD relistings is actually fairly minimal, and while I've disagreed with the nominator on the merits of this matter both the circumstances and the resulting discussion have totally justified the process of bringing it back so quickly. Besides which, heated AfD discussions almost always result in the quality of the subject article being improved, so Wikipedia benefits even in the case of repeated Keep results. - DustFormsWords (talk) 07:19, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So... in other words, should this AfD turn out to be "Keep" or "No consensus," it will be back for a 4th time within one day? Just trying to clarify what the views are here... effectively, it means that anyone's "keep"-vote is null-and-void. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 18:07, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If the result is Keep, then I would say it is probably not be appropriate. But, if the result is No Consensus, shouldn't we continue the discussion until a consensus develops (one way or the other)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by DigitalC (talk • contribs) 20:47, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Query: Am not familiar with the Wikipedia editorial policy: can someone explain how the AfD "vote" is handled? Is it based solely on the number of yeas vs nays, or based somehow on a subjective interpretation of the coherency of the various arguments made by the editors? Do editors with established COIs get their opinion heard? I would point out that Drsjpdc has been repeatedly changing the article and editorializing--after he said he would stop--does this not weaken or invalidate his 'delete' position?
Also, to be fair to editors like Milowent (who asked quite a number of times what is my relationship; not sure why you thought it crucial to use bold typeface): you should know simply that Hans Lowey, who escaped from Austria in 1939, helped rescue many Jews from the Nazis and arranged for their safe departure out of that country. Lowey saved the life of someone very dear to me, securing his release from the Dachau concentration camp. Certain editors have used this article to damage Lowey's reputation and cause pain to his friends and relatives. Sure, Lowey was enjoined by the SEC, but if the editors who introduced this citation bothered to read on, they would note that Lowey never admitted to any wrongdoing and was never convicted of any offense. In fact, he won a major lawsuit against his former company Forest in the mid 1980s that allowed him to continue developing new, innovative sustained-release drug delivery systems on his own. This article and discussion must be limited solely to factual information about Howard Press (two-time convicted felon, according to Press's own sworn deposition), not attacks and speculations about Lowey, Forest, or various editors.--Rikatazz (talk) 14:43, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Rikatazz, its not a vote (which is why you see people saying !vote on wikipedia so often, it means "not a vote"), but numbers are not ignored. The adminstrator who closes can weigh many factors, including weight of the arguments and conficts of interest of editors. And thank you for sharing your personal interest in the article. While you pushed hard to make the article very negative about Press, when those materials naturally led to some negative press reports about Lowey, who Press is inextricably linked with in this article, you now sound identical to Press' son, bemoaning the negative material you don't like and saying it will cause harm to relatives and friends. The fact is, the whole article should be deleted as I've asserted above, as none of this material shows notability, in addition to the major original research problems. Perhaps you'd like to acquaint yourself with those policies and consider changing your (!vote) opinion on whether this article should remain on wikipedia--Milowent (talk) 15:48, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
COMMENT: I would appreciate any assistance in getting this trash removed. It by now should be clear what Milo was the first to note, and I certainly agreed was as severe or worse a COI for Liptower as for myself in the foolish creation of this article in the first place. He certainly has essentially admitted a direct connection to Lowey in this commentary, while still refusing to admit how. NOTE: clearly his story is almost 180 degs. opposite that of my dad's. One thing I have learned here, is that they became mortal enemies. What I meant by the "Golden Calf" allusion is that dad thought that Etis was possibly paid off by Lowey or, maybe Key, to do the "Counterfeiting" exactly to get him shut down and destroyed, so he would not have the wherewithal to continue his fight to get reimbursed by Lowey. We have an admission that there was a profit sharing agreement. If I fired someone for trying to steal my secrets and trying to forge my name, I would NEVER, EVER agree to work with that person again, and would frankly have gone to the Police right then and there and filed charges. In fact something like that happened to me with a secretary and I filed charges immediately! The very fact that Lowey entered into a sharing agreement, speaks volumes about the objectivity of this story too.

Obviously no one has all the facts now. Both my dad and Lowey are gone. However, it is also true that Hans Lowey was not an angel either. We have seen that he was cited by the SEC for securities fraud, and later even sued [1] by FOREST, for his "own" patent! And, in the early 1950's BOnded was charged with producing "adulterated" products. [2].

This HAS to end. ADMINSTRATOR. Please put a bullet in this now.Д-рСДжП,ДС 17:09, 2 November 2009 (UTC) By the way, Liptower's story contains overt LIBEL. The charges he rants on about are unsubstantiable, and are unquestionably libelous. Д-рСДжП,ДС 17:12, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Who do you claim as the victim of libel here? It cannot be the article's subject, as libel by definition is statements about a living person. Bongomatic 20:53, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
From the legal dictionary: (emphasis added): libel 1) n. to publish in print (including pictures), writing or broadcast through radio, television or film, an untruth about another which will do harm to that person or his/her reputation, by tending to bring the target into ridicule, hatred, scorn or contempt of others. Libel is the written or broadcast form of defamation, distinguished from slander which is oral defamation. It is a tort (civil wrong) making the person or entity (like a newspaper, magazine or political organization) open to a lawsuit for damages by the person who can prove the statement about him/her was a lie. Publication need only be to one person, but it must be a statement which claims to be fact, and is not clearly identified as an opinion. While it is sometimes said that the person making the libelous statement must have been intentional and malicious, actually it need only be obvious that the statement would do harm and is untrue. Proof of malice, however, does allow a party defamed to sue for "general damages" for damage to reputation, while an inadvertent libel limits the damages to actual harm (such as loss of business) called "special damages." "Libel per se" involves statements so vicious that malice is assumed and does not require a proof of intent to get an award of general damages. Libel against the reputation of a person who has died will allow surviving members of the family to bring an action for damages. Most states provide for a party defamed by a periodical to demand a published retraction. If the correction is made, then there is no right to file a lawsuit. Governmental bodies are supposedly immune for actions for libel on the basis that there could be no intent by a non-personal entity, and further, public records are exempt from claims of libel. However, there is at least one known case in which there was a financial settlement as well as a published correction when a state government newsletter incorrectly stated that a dentist had been disciplined for illegal conduct. Д-рСДжП,ДС 05:21, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
See this article. Not recent, but no reason to think things have changed. Note phrases such as "centuries of legal tradition". Bongomatic 06:23, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am concerned by the very nature of this discussion. The use of the word "libel" has become strongly frowned upon at Wikipedia, and can lead to charges of violating WP:NLT, which in turn can lead to a very quick block. Please get away from this discussion. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:55, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Both the pro-Lowey contingent (Rikatazz and Liptower) and pro-Press contingent (Drsjpdc) have been jousting like this for the past week, and I am sure it will only continue if the article was to be kept. I've found more original research sources that are negative about Lowey but have decided not to add them to the article at this point.--Milowent (talk) 07:05, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wise decision on two counts
  1. You're probably right that (just as long as Drsjpdc sees any hope for deletion, so that door of hope needs to be fixed or closed) he will continue, but that is not a legitimate, policy-based reason for deletion. On the contrary! The Law of Unintended Consequences makes it clear that inclusion of sourced negative information will happen. Not only is that NOT a reason for deletion, opposition by the COI-affected author IS listed as a reason for blocking the COI involved party (Drsjpdc) so that disruption will stop. Deletion should be based on policy, not the wishes of the author.
  2. You are also right not to include more negative information about Lowey, as he is not the subject of the article. The article is about Howard Press. That's basic policy regarding article writing. Articles should stay on topic and must not be used as coatracks to attack those who are not the subject of the article. Since Lowey is tangentially related to both the topics of patents and illegal activities, he can get very short mention, but no more than that. Therefore the inclusion of mentions of Lowey must be very short. If he is notable (and he may very well be), then write an article about him so those sources don't get wasted. I suspect an interesting article about all these aspects could be written in which both Press and Lowey are extensively mentioned. If that happened, it might justify deletion of this article.
Basically Drsjpdc has been walking a very thin line by first violating NPOV and then LUC, where he is threatened with blocking for doing what he's been doing here. It needs to stop so the article can be cleaned up and improved. As any COI-affected author, he should use the article's talk page (not AfD) to make sure that unsourced negative information is sourced or removed and/or proven inaccuracies get corrected. -- Brangifer (talk) 15:06, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
How can the article be "cleaned up and improved" when it so blatantly fails WP:N? There are no secondary sources which give significant coverage to Howard Press. DigitalC (talk) 18:51, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. What a mess. This is cobbled together from primary sources and some passing mentions in secondary sources, pepped up with some original research. Howard Press does not have significant coverage in reliable sources, so we should not have an article about him. Neither his patent nor his conviction add up to making him notable. He's run-of-the-mill. Someone might be able to write about General Pharmacal or the fraud case, but I highly doubt that either of those is notable. Fences&Windows 23:27, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was speedy delete all (G3) as blatant hoaxes. The two articles that were copypasted were dead giveaways. MuZemike 04:16, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mel Rogers

Mel Rogers (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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Chris Wills (90210), Melvin Stovall and this article were created by the same user User:Theman234. All links to this article in any other wikipedia page was also created by this user. Can't find any verifiable links on google. Must be a hoax Writer Listener 02:37, 28 October 2009 (UTC) I am also nominating the following related pages because of the above reason:[reply]

Melvin Stovall (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Chris Wills (90210) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)--Writer Listener 02:41, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 04:41, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Time Machine (Solution-Soft software)

Time Machine (Solution-Soft software) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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Non-notable software. A search for "Time Machine" Solution-Soft seems to bring only self published promotional hits. Ridernyc (talk) 02:03, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 20:03, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Jamari Grant

Jamari Grant (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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Declined the speedy deletion nomination, so bringing it here for further evaluation as it's a BLP article. –Juliancolton | Talk 01:55, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 04:41, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Brunch with the Brit

Brunch with the Brit (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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contested prod, unreferenced and non-notable radio show, fails WP:BROADCAST and probably COI issues Declan Clam (talk) 01:53, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Creator of the Page - irvinefan - I made this because it is a remarkable show in the way it has grown to 5 continents. It has a large pirate audience unlike any other college radio show. I have now properly sourced it as well. They have been discussed on Absolute Radio as a feature of Christian O'Connels show. (talk) 12:53, 28 October 2009 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Irvinefan (talk • contribs) [reply]

  • Delete - The growth mentioned in the comment above isn't shown in the references given. So far all that's been established is that that show exists, that it may be available as a podcast on ITunes (can't confirm this, since the link given requires a login), and that a Twitter account which may belong to Christian O'Connell tweeted favorably about it once. The article needs reliable, verifiable primary sources per WP:RS showing notability per WP:NMEDIA, and I can't find any online. MuffledThud (talk) 07:51, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Kevin (talk) 23:51, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Stevie Hesketh

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Studio musician and touring keyboard player, not listed as a member of the band Jet. Was originally going to redirect the article to the Jet article but he is not even mentioned in the Jet article. Ridernyc (talk) 01:30, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. NW (Talk) 22:29, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Black Nobel Prize laureates

Black Nobel Prize laureates (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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Delete. Article is unable to proceed without a definition of 'Black' as a race. Defining people by colour is not possible as no empirical method exists to do so and there can be no consensus to achieve this other than by explicit self identification by the persons concerned. Attempting to define the colour of others is illegal in most countries and Wikipedia is at risk in doing so. Even if a definition were both possible and legal the article is unbalanced by representing a single race in the absence of any others. Ex nihil (talk) 01:30, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete while the article is obviously well intentioned, the nominator is right. while any individual or group can advocate for itself and self identify as they wish, WP cannot ever come up with rational criteria for who is of what "race". the only way this list could work is if it only listed nobel winners who publicly stated that they were "black", as opposed to some other race, and with no other partial race mentioned. race is a cultural construct, while ethnicity is less so, but only nationality will work for a list like this. this belongs on someones private website, to support cultural unity and self identity for those who identify as "black", and for those who support all people of colors right to self determination, expression, and accomplishment. there is nothing racist or anti-black or even anti left in proposing this for deletion. however, if a book was published on this subject, or a subject which included this list (or one close to it), and was widely discussed and reviewed, we could include it, with sourced commentary on the inevitable controversy over listing awards, etc by race.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 02:06, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename and rebuild as "non-Caucasian" 70.29.209.91 (talk) 04:12, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: Seems to be type of information people might search for and want to know -- "hmm ... i wonder how many black folks have won a nobel prize. 12 out of 806? hmm, interesting!" Just because there may be a debate from time to time over whether a certain person should be included (obama is half white!), the normal editing process can accommodate that. We don't delete List of African-American firsts, or eliminate the gathering the racial background in the U.S. Census, simply because Tiger Woods is not 100% black.--Milowent (talk) 04:47, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as per nom. He is absolutely correct. This is also the US POV on race. African-American and balck are not the same. What is done in the US census is specifically forbidden in the census of many other countries. "non-Caucasian" has the same problems. --Bduke (Discussion) 07:06, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep as per Milowents' comments. The debate about of what shade of colour should be included in the article is moot as would be the illustration that President Obama is actually a white man and debated ad nauseam. The cultural and racial diversity of modern society allows for articles such as this one to be perfectly legitimate not to mention that it is well written, sourced and referenced--Jemesouviens32 (talk) 08:15, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Wow, a great bit of info that work's equally well for White supremacists and for Black persons who want to play the race card. "Did you know that out of 806 Nobel prizes, only 12 of them went to Black people?" I'd say the same for someone making a table of how many Nobel laureates are Jewish, or gay, or Ivy League graduates or evangelical Christians. Mandsford (talk) 16:30, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep A new introductory sentence that defines "black" would alleviate the nominator's primary concern. The article is correctly referenced and very interesting. Warrah (talk) 16:49, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Define Black? Would you say Indians are black because some of them are dark? I don't see any problem with having African Nobel Laureates or African-American Nobel prize winners as well. But without a suitable definition of Black, this article shouldn't be kept. --Writer Listener 21:25, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment for user WriterListener, each individual Nobel prize winner in this article is identified and their country of origin specified, a quick read or following the link to the individual will dispell any doubt about definition. --Jemesouviens32 (talk) 08:26, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I guess that what I don't like-- and it goes beyond WP:IDONTLIKEIT, and right into WP:OR -- is the statistical table that has been part of the article from when it first started. It's cited as coming from "Nobel Laureates Facts", but the Nobel Foundation doesn't keep a table of racial statistics. Skin color has nothing to do with whether someone is nominated for a Nobel prize, any more so than having been born in February. Mandsford (talk) 13:07, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Does this work as a new introductory sentence: “To date, there have been 12 Nobel laureates who are either African or of African heritage”? Warrah (talk) 14:08, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, it does not work with the current title. The term "black" is used in all sorts of ways other than to refer to "African or of African heritage”. For example, Melanesian people have been described as black. Australian Aboriginal people have been described as black. If the title was changed to Nobel Prize laureates of African heritage maybe it should not be deleted, but with the current title it should be deleted. --Bduke (Discussion) 21:51, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. I'm not opposed to an article about the Black Nobel laureates, or anything else that lists Nobel laureates of a particular nationality, gender, religious belief, school affiliation, etc.; List of female Nobel laureates and List of Nobel laureates affiliated with Princeton University, for instance, are very good articles. I'm inclined to think that the author wasn't intending to argue some sort of point by compiling his or her own table of statistics, but if a point isn't intended, why make a chart like that in the first place? I'd rather the outcome be that the consensus is to keep the article and remove the table, so it doesn't come down to an edit war. Mandsford (talk) 16:50, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - the issue with defining blackness is a red herring here; I don't think anyone would argue that any of the people listed here should not be considered 'black'. If the word 'black' is a problem, 'people of sub-Saharan-African heritage' could be substituted, but I think the meaning is sufficiently clear. A bigger issue with this article is that of original research; is this, in fact, a topic people have written about, or is it an indiscriminate collection of information? A quick search immediately reveals that it is a topic that has received serious attention, and so a Wikipedia article is appropriate. Robofish (talk) 22:56, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The issue with defining blackness is most certainly NOT a red herring here. To equate "black" with 'people of sub-Saharan-African heritage' is a US-centric POV. This is not the US wikipedia. --Bduke (Discussion) 23:43, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In this case, I don't see any person on here who could not be described as "black". If there are black (as you define it) Nobel laureates who you believe aren't on the list but ought to be, it's the encyclopedia that anyone can edit. Generally, the last editor is the one who decides whether to write "color" or "colour". Mandsford (talk) 00:32, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The point is not that Melanesian people or Australian Aboriginal people have been excluded. but that the inclusion criteria are not clear. Note also that I said that Melanesian people and Australian Aboriginal people have been described as black - past tense. They are now just described as Melanesian people and Australian Aboriginal people. The term "black" is derogatory in the South Pacific. It may not be in the US, but we want a term in the title of WP articles which is clearly understood everywhere in the same sense. "Black" does not meet that criteria. --Bduke (Discussion) 20:38, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • (weak)Delete While interesting, the whole thing depends on original research. I don't think that any reliable source says that lumping together Nobel Prize winners of different nationalities and/or different categories of prizes just because they are considered the same race is a legitimate thing to do. And (although I know this doesn't matter much on WP) I also find the article somewhat offensive, especially the table with all the 0's where no prize was ever won by a black person. Northwestgnome (talk) 02:05, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Do you mean it is offensive that the Nobel committee overlooked the work of black scientists? Warrah (talk) 17:06, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Did they? If the point of the table is to accompany, with statistics, the (published) beliefs of other persons that the Nobel committee was racist, then that's the type of context, with sources, that would logically accompany such a table. On the other hand, if the point is to make people assume that the Nobel people were bigots, or to assume that black scientists are a rarity, then I would say yes, that's offensive. Mandsford (talk) 19:00, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Your points are correct. I would support removing the table, too. Warrah (talk) 20:26, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I was actually thinking that the point was being hinted at that maybe black people are not smart enough to win a nobel prize in science. Either way it wouldn't be the job of WP to make a point indirectly. If reliable sources have criticized the Nobel Committee for racism that should be mentioned in its article, not indirectly implied in another article. Northwestgnome (talk) 22:46, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have already voted delete above but one problem with this table is that I suspect 'black' participation will always be undereported because we just don't divide neatly into 'black' and 'white' we are all a rather nice mix. Where is the cutoff point? Half-castes? Quadroons? Octaroons? These degrading terms were used in slave days, the whole discussion is very distasteful and in this day and age unecessary, we are just people and if an African heritage is part of our identity let's just keep that in the bio. Let's not introduce a race ID card to WP. Ex nihil (talk) 01:55, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In that nobody seems to support having the table in there, I've tried a version that simply lists the twelve Nobel laureates who can be described as being of "Black African" descent. If anyone feels that the table should be in there, it's a simple matter of reverting the changes. If someone can find a term for dark-skinned people of African descent that is in use throughout the entire English-speaking world, it's the encyclopedia that anyone can edit. Assuming an article without the table, then I say keep. Mandsford (talk) 02:20, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep - The article provides useful information, although I agree that the table at the beginning is somewhat unnecessary. I would be in favour of renaming if a suitable alternative title can be found, that would comprise all those currently listed. Davshul (talk) 13:47, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - The article contains useful information and is properly cited. It does not violate Wikipedia policy. There are several similar articles on Wikipedia that establish a precedent, as described on the article's talk page. When in doubt, I tend to follow the advice several seasoned editors have given me - if it's useful to our readers then keep it. I think this one does that. Truthanado (talk) 04:58, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Not really ambiguous-- the use of the term is to follow what the person uses, or is referred to in major works of reference, as with all other categories. the all such groups are mixed to a considerable extent does not invalidate the concept. DGG ( talk ) 04:00, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The article is much better without the table. I still don't think it's a great article, but I would probably have not have voted on this AfD at all were it as it is now. I'm not ready to change my vote to "keep" however since OR is involved to say that "Black" has any meaning in this context. Of course my judgement is influenced by emotion since as an American I have strong feelings about racial issues, so maybe I'll downgrade my vote to "weak delete."
p.s. What would you think of an article on "tall" or "short" Nobel Prize laureates? Northwestgnome (talk) 16:12, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If there's ever a "Tall History Month" in the schools, someone might get away with it. John Maynard Keynes would be at the "top" of the list. Mandsford (talk) 16:22, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was deleted, without prejudice to eventual re-creation. This page concerned an adventure game in an "early stage of development". In this discussion, the only significant author appears to acknowledge that this isn't ready for encyclopedia space yet. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 12:12, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Humm and Strumm

Humm and Strumm (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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24-hour-old sub-stub about an upcoming game. Nothing on Google that is not a blog or a primary source. Delete.  Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 00:49, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is true; at the moment, this project is *not* known. Perhaps I jumped the gun on this. When/if it becomes more well-known, at least, I may create it again, but not until the project becomes much more notable. Hummstrumm (talk) 03:28, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was Keep (NAC) RMHED (talk) 22:54, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

List of Breton writers

List of Breton writers (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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Simple alpha-list better suited as a category. See Category:Breton writers. No inclusion criteria, and no means of verification. I googled a handful of random names here which failed all notability guidelines. There may be nonsense entries here, but we have no way of knowing. –Moondyne 00:40, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was speedy delete. Blanked by creator. The page of jokes here is mildly amusing. He may well have appeared in 150 productions but they were all dire East German stuff and never escaped to The West. So nn-bio rather than hoax. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 15:36, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 18:27, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Apache Logs Viewer

Apache Logs Viewer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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I can't find significant coverage for this software. Joe Chill (talk) 19:50, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was merge to Humanx Commonwealth. (non-admin closure) Tim Song (talk) 21:18, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Clarity Held

Clarity Held (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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Non notable fictional character, no source is given. JL 09 q?c 16:28, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Delete. While the article has sources, they are blogs and editorials. Could be redirected to a section of main dotcom bubble article. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:40, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Second dot-com bubble

Second dot-com bubble (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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Article based on a two year old neologism , that predicts future events that never happened. Entire article is based on two year old speculation from a few editorial writers. Ridernyc (talk) 00:07, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep - article (as at this writing) is founded on three independent reliable sources, is well sourced throughout and describes a notable concept. (I could be talked into a Merge though if someone found an appropriate target.) - DustFormsWords (talk) 00:40, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If it's kept it's needs to be totally rewritten. Ridernyc (talk) 08:51, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete when did this happen? editorial writers aren't enough to make an article an encyclopedic topic. only a few here CynofGavuf 07:09, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. This reads like an analysis, with points for and against the fact of the existance of the subject. I recommned that the sources be folded into Dot-com bubble, and a small section be added that talks about the idea of a second such bubble - sort of like how a movie article will have a small section talking about a (possible) sequel. We can't very well talk about a subject if independent sources contradict each other about whether the subject exists. UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 15:14, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep This article is notable. I admit, it really ought to be shifted to the past tense, and it has a really long, unnecessary list at the end, but it is still a notable topic, cited in 3 independent, reliable sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by S8333631 (talk • contribs) 02:27, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Another interesting article. However I don't think WP can have an article on something that may or may not exist (Okay UFO and Bigfoot are different). In this case real people's lives and careers are affected. I'd like to see the information placed somewhere else, but I'm not sure how to do it. Maybe it could be snuck in at the end of the first Dot-com bubble article, in a section titled "changes in the market since the bubble" or something like that. Northwestgnome (talk) 02:21, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was keep. Kevin (talk) 21:48, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Iza Valentine

Iza Valentine (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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Unsourced and of questionable notability. Eeekster (talk) 04:43, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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  • Weak Keep - I'm not sure of what the relevant policy is relating to racehorses but she's won an award (1985 California broodmare of the year, per here), her death has been reported on several hobby/industry specific sites (here and here), and been the subject of analysis here. All those articles appear to be written by or largely mirror the horse's owner, but on the other hand they're published in places that have editorial oversight. I'd appreciate insight from an expert on the topic and it may be an appropriate candidate for article rescue. - DustFormsWords (talk) 00:45, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Keep - With the links provided above by DustFormsWords, the minimum threshold for notability is probably met, although barely. California broodmare of the year and several successful foals provides notability, and Bloodhorse and Thoroughbred Times are two respected publications within the racing world. Dana boomer (talk) 00:32, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was redirect to List of Humanx Commonwealth characters#Mahnahmi Lynx . NW (Talk) 22:28, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mahnahmi Lynx

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Non notable fictional planet, no source is given. JL 09 q?c 16:28, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was redirect to List of Humanx Commonwealth planets. Content already merged. (non-admin closure) Tim Song (talk) 21:16, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ulru-Ujurr

Ulru-Ujurr (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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Non notable fictional planet, no source is given. JL 09 q?c 16:26, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was redirect to Humanx Commonwealth#Ulru-Ujurrians. The content was already in the article. (non-admin closure) Tim Song (talk) 21:13, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ulru-Ujurrians

Ulru-Ujurrians (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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Non notable fictional planet, no source is given. JL 09 q?c 16:22, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete or redirect to Humanx Commonwealth. Abductive (reasoning) 01:37, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Keep (NAC) RMHED (talk) 21:57, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Packer

The Packer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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Reason Article fails WP:NOTABILITY, WP:NOT, WP:SPAM. Article was created by an WP:SPA account with no other edits other than related to Vance Publishings article, "The Packer ‎". Previously prodded, but removed by the articles creator.

  • This is one Part of a long history of Spam and promotion on Wikipedia, see the -Spam case

Using Wikipedia for Self-promotion and are WP:NOT the routes to having an encyclopaedia article. Hu12 (talk) 15:36, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

________________________

This article was not created as part of a spam effort. I created this article long before the other articles cited were written. I am not connected to the other users listed on the spam page.

I haven't been involved in much other (past) editing due to busy-ness with other activities and being a new user.


_____

How is information about this business publication different from articles on these business publications? Some of the publications listed are small regional publications.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Trade_magazine_stubs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accountancy_Age http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereford_World http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_Week

____

I removed the AFD header earlier because it said it the article would be improved, the creator can remove the article.

I have reworded the article and made it sound more neutral. The name of a competitor has also been added. --Clarence Rutherford (talk) 23:05, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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btw, i think the other magazines in the spam list given above are probably appropriate also. Unless there was a great deal more than than shows now, I do not see this as spam, but as possibly COI editing that does need somechecking, but not wholesale condemnation. DGG ( talk ) 03:23, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 18:27, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Rodrigo Constanzo

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promotional article lacking coverage in independent reliable sources. no real claim of notability. old prod removed by SPA article creator Duffbeerforme (talk) 06:52, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. The decision to redirect or merge can be finalized at the article's talkpage. –Juliancolton | Talk 00:21, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Performance improvement plan

Performance improvement plan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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Article is partly a copyvio, it seems to me (from this, and besides that, it is unverified and outlines a plan of action more than an encyclopedic topic. I am not convinced that this is a notable topic in the first place, and the article as it is now is not in accordance with our guidelines, which propose we do not write manuals on how to act in certain situations. Drmies (talk) 05:56, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was No Consensus. Doug.(talk • contribs) 12:59, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Beast (B2ST)

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No claim of notability; at least, no sources to confirm the one thin claim to notability. Fails WP:Notability (music). The DominatorTalkEdits 05:45, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note - I added sources that prove notability. MS (Talk|Contributions) 14:48, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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Note - Page now meets WP:GNG. Change to keep. MS (Talk|Contributions) 04:21, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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  • Weak delete. I ran all of the Korean sources through 'Google translate' and there just wasn't enough there. As for criterion 12 mentioned above; I assume it was their MTV appearance, it would have to have been at least 30 minutes of coverage and I can't quantify the length by the references. The clincher for me was their Korean Wikipedia page, which is translated here, there's not even anything there to establish notability. J04n(talk page) 05:47, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 18:27, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Conjure Cognac

Conjure Cognac (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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Non-notable beverage riding on Ludacris' coattails but apparently receiving no publicity. Orange Mike | Talk 03:23, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Kevin (talk) 21:44, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

NOS (drink)

NOS (drink) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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One of several non-notable energy drinks. Orange Mike | Talk 02:49, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete As Orangemike suggests, just one of many similar drinks, and not notable in any way. For those who think a Google search is a good measure of notability I have done one. Apart from the manufacturer's site and other sites advertising and/or selling the drink, I found a large number of mentions on MySpace, Facebook, etc, together with other sites where anyone can create pages, a couple of pages making jokes out of NOS, etc etc. No significant independent coverage at all. JamesBWatson (talk) 11:30, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. No arguments to keep Kevin (talk) 22:20, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Joao Pedro da Viega

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Not notable. Nothing found to backup claims. No sources. Seems to fail WP:ATHLETE noq (talk) 00:02, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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  1. ^ http://ny.findacase.com/research/wfrmDocViewer.aspx/xq/fac.%5CNY%5CNY2%5C1984%5C19841203_0046927.NY.htm/qx
  2. ^ http://archive.nlm.nih.gov/fdanj/bitstream/123456789/15905/5/ddnj05065.pdf
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