Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard

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Burst of activity around deism

A new editor has appeared who has started making a set of related changes on deism-related topics. This appears to be related to some traces I've found of some modern movement to take over Deism as a formal position. There are obvious fringe possibilities here, and I've reverted one change in moralistic therapeutic deism which appears to be part of an attempt to take control of the term and deny its historical usage. People who watch philosophy and philosophy of religion articles may want to keep an eye out. Mangoe (talk) 22:57, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Historical usage? What historical usage? The term was coined in 2005 or therabout, and no other notice was taken of it until last year. Calling something which defies the very definition of "Deism" by this name is what is "fringe" here. And I notices that the article on Panendeism, a genuine form of Deism which has been around three times as long and has actual adherants, was deleted for being not notable. This article is like an article on a theoretical branch of Christianity which denies the existence or importance of Jesus. DeistCosmos (talk) 03:11, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Google scholar gives quite a few hits on the term. I'd disagree with 'last year'. Dougweller (talk) 05:21, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

But hits from when? DeistCosmos (talk) 12:07, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

I think Mango is talking about the historical usage of the term "Deism"... which was used as far back as the 1700s. Blueboar (talk) 13:18, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Doug most likely refers to the smallish but respectable number of hits on Google scholar for the new MTD concept. [1] As for Mangoe, I confess I'm not clear what he is arguing when he speaks of attempts to deny "historical usage". It is pretty clear that the so-called "deism" of MTD is not deism as historically understood. It's more like God as the ideal dad envisaged by teenagers: one who helps you out by driving over to pick you up from the all-night party when you want him to, but never insists you get home by definite time or there will be consequences. Is it the MTD people who are denying historical usage, or those who criticise their innovative use/misuse of the term? As far as I can see this is more an OR issue than a Fringe issue. DeistCosmos has added assertions that MTD is really a form of theism not deism, and is a misappropriation of the term by Christians wishing to imply that deism is "watered down" christianity. From my point of view he is right, but we need to be careful about what we can legitimately assert. Paul B (talk) 13:45, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

To some degree, this all depends on what article we are talking about. I assume there are enough sources that discuss MTD for us to have an article about it (ie that MTD passes the tests set out at WP:FRINGE). If so, it is fine to focus on the MTD definition of Deism in that article (noting, briefly, how it is different from the traditional "mainstream" definition). However, mentioning the MTD view in other Deism related articles probably gives a fringe view undue weight. Blueboar (talk) 14:13, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) What I saw when I started looking around was that there appears to be something of an effort from someone-- not clear who, but they have at least one website-- to claim deism for their own and defend their version of it against others. I'm concerned about this because when this sort of thing has appeared in Wikipedia before (and also in The Real World) we've seen attempts to redefine past usage of the term. That's why I think people ought to keep a watch on this.

The issue with panendeism is one that besets a lot of these minor religious/philosophical positions: does anyone else care? A quick search tends to reinforce the course of discussion at the AFD: this is one person's notion which hasn't managed to get much notice by the larger world. MTD, on the other hand, has gotten a lot of notice. I think it is reasonable to point out that the "deism" in it is something of a rhetorical figure rather than an attempt at philosophical taxonomy, but I think we need to find a WP:RS to point this out, and I suspect looking Christianity Today or some similar journal will produce that source.

Deism has been a problem spot for us for a long time, as evidenced by the long-standing tug of war over exactly who among the America founding fathers can be claimed to be a deist. As a position without an establishment it tends to be vague around the edges, and its utility in exerting political leverage against the Christian Right has tended to produce a lot of tendentious editing here and sourcing in The Real World. I don't think it's unreasonable to be concerned when someone who more or less labels himself a deist comes in and does nothing but edit articles related to the topic; it sets off my WP:OWN detectors, and the history of trying to own deists, in the absence of official affiliations to fall back on, is quite problematic. I'm not saying he can't edit these articles, but rather that the situation is likely to require supervision. Mangoe (talk) 14:26, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Imagine that a couple of sexologists published a book including a concept of "Liberated Heterosexual Marriage," which they defined as "marriage between two people of the same sex," and they acknowledged that usually "Heterosexual" doesn't quite mean that but claimed "in our definition the word heterosexual is revised from its classical meaning by the 'liberation' aspect." And imagine they got some of their colleagues to put up some blog posts or even publish other articles using their "Liberated Heterosexual Marriage" concept to mean same-sex marriage. And imagine someone reading that stuff thought it would make a fine Wikipedia article, and presented it here as a fact, that this is what "heterosexual" means. You might think then that some editors knowledgeable of "heterosexuality" might add a note in the article that that is not what heterosexual means really no matter how much one can stretch the word's historic use. And looking at the google scholar returns, searching from 1904-2004 for "moralistic therapeutic deism" returns zilch. Searching 2005-2006 returns barely more than a dozen, including several that look to be just from the coiners of the term. 2007-2008 gets two dozen. 2009-2010? A hair more than that. DeistCosmos (talk) 02:42, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

This is an academic neologism and it has not garnered much attention as things go, and quite frankly I'm surprised we have an entry about this. As far as I know the usage of this term is only in reference to the original concept, born out of the original study -- no subsequent studies, no further testing of the concept, etc. I think sourcing needs a bit of a steroid boost to convince me that this deserves a stand alone entry.Griswaldo (talk) 03:07, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Also, and perhaps more to the point of what started this discussion, I really don't think mention of this concept belongs at Deism. If it is notable enough to have its own entry, which I'm not convinced of, it is certainly not directly related to the topic of Deism, despite Christian Smith's use of the term.Griswaldo (talk) 03:11, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Which is exactly why it needs to be covered in Deism, for someone hearing the term and looking in Deism expecting to find out what the D in this MTD is about. DeistCosmos (talk) 03:24, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Why not just disambiguate it on top ... if indeed the stand alone page is necessary? I also have to retract my clam that "it has not garnered much attention as things go." It appears to have garnered much attention, within Christian communities. It has garnered much less attention amongst sociologists and other scholars of religion. This may, admittedly, be due to the fact that youth religiosity is not a research area that garners much attention in the first place.Griswaldo (talk) 03:50, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Well yeah, and then there's ceremonial deism, as well, which has a prof's comment right in it on how odd it is to use Deism in that term. But it still needs to be covered in Deism, and that MTD is pretty much the opposite of Deism needs to be put back in the MTD article. The only reason not to have it is to trick people into misunderstanding what Deism is. DeistCosmos (talk) 03:59, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Neologism hasn't caught on widely, article should be merged with Christian Smith. Much more important is improving the Deism article: overlinking, quote farming. And I found it inconsistent. If Deism died out in England by the 1740s how come Tom Paine wrote a book about it later? There may be an explanation in the way terms are used by different authors, but it would be useful to add some more info about that. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:04, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

In my view, whatever "Moralistic therapeutic deism" may be, it has no urgent business of being mentioned at the Deism article. A first step would be to show that "MTD" is more than a random ephemereal blog fad. Once there is a scholarly monograph discussiong "MTD" we can still consider whether it is a valid aspect of Deism. --dab (𒁳) 10:31, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Dab. As you noticed, there is a monograph, Soul Searching (book). Should MTD also redirect to Christian Smith (sociologist)? I see a lot of Christian writers responding to the concept in terms of what it means to future Christian generations, etc. but little scholarly response in peer reviewed publications or in academic books (a conference paper, an unpublished paper submitted for publication in 2009, and a very recent peer reviewed paper that is not available online yet). I should add that Soul Searching received quite a few reviews since its publication if that makes a difference. Maybe we keep the book entry and redirect MTD to it?Griswaldo (talk) 12:01, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

You are right, I have noted that there is a monograph. In fact, this article seems to be mostly about the core point made in Soul Searching (book), so why don't we move it to Soul Searching (book). The remainder of this discussion will then be confined to interpreting WP:BK.

--dab (𒁳) 12:06, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Taking it out of Deism altogether, well that just doesn't square. Look at some articles linked in the MTD article. "Death By Deism"; A nation of deists"-- these aren't making that distinction, so readers reading those titles will come to Deism to find out what they're talking about. There needs to be some comment, some brief comment, in Deism telling readers why the versions of Moralistic therapeutic deism and ceremonial deism are not going to be found under Deism. DeistCosmos (talk) 22:34, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Not really, no. In fact, that would be better covered in the article about MTD itself, ie a section about "Differences from classic Deism." — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 23:02, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Well not ceremonial deism. And somethings got to tell the confused searcher at the deism article that these other nondeistic things are out their guised out as kinds of Deism. DeistCosmos (talk) 23:13, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

DeistCosmos, I do not understand what you are trying to say. Deism is an article about a theological topic. "MTD" is a neologism relating to current issues in US sociology. Just because the word "Deism" is in there doesn't establish that it has any sort of topical connection to the Deism article, and if it does, it is very far from clear that its notability is anywhere near WP:DUE to the "Deism" topic. --dab (𒁳) 10:32, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

DaB, if you're so convinced about the non-notability of MTD, please put it up for AFD. I think it will survive that, but that's just my view, of course.

I've taken the apparently radical step of reading the original source, and they do explain exactly why they use the word "deism": "Like the deistic God of the eighteenth-century philosophers, the God of contemporary teenage Moralistic Therapeutic Deism is primarily a divine Creator and Lawgiver. He designed the universe and establishes moral law and order. But this God is not trinitarian, he did not speak through the Torah or the prophets of Israel, was never resurrected from the dead, and does not fill and transform people through his Spirit." (p. 165) There's a bit more after this, but you can get the gist from this. Mangoe (talk) 13:55, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure Dab didn't say that the term is not notable on its own, but I'll let him answer that. What he did say was that it's not notable, or UNDUE, within the more general topic of Deism. I think several of us agree with him there, and I am not personally convinced by the authors' own explanation of why they chose this term. The God of MTD intervenes in human affairs, even if its' not "through his Spirit". That's not Deism. Story closed.Griswaldo (talk) 14:03, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Mangoe, I have already commented on my opinion of the notability question on the article talkpage. Please consult it. After all, this is just a noticeboard, the actual discussion on the further fate of the article should take place on the article's talkpage. The "fringe" question here is not the notability of MTD but its inclusion in the Deism article. It is a question of WP:DUE and/or WP:SYNTH. Whatever my opinion on the notability of "MTD", I certainly do not think it has any kind of notability pertinent to the topic of Deism. --dab (𒁳) 17:24, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

It's got Deism right in its name so it's representing itself as a kind of Deism. If you have an article on that, not mentioning it in Deism is basically hiding the ball. At least ceremonial deism has long since been linked right at the top, but there's still nothing in Deism to explain that it isn't. And about that quote from the book, you could do the same thing with the " liberated heterosexual marriage" I described above -- just talk about how both involve a lifelong commitment, having sex, maybe raising a family even and presto! Now you've shown that marriage of a same sex couple is heterosexual. Jeez. DeistCosmos (talk) 22:50, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

I think it is rather clear at this juncture that we have failed to communicate. "It's got Deism right in its name so it's representing itself as a kind of Deism" is so far beside the point of WP:DUE that I am at a loss on how to respond. Avatar (2009 film) "has got Avatar right in its name so it's representing itself as a kind of Avatar". Does this mean we need a "2009 movie" section in our Avatar (Hinduism) article? I don't think so. Am I contesting the notability of the movie in denying it a section in the Hinduism article? I hardly think so. --dab (𒁳) 08:38, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Apples and oranges. No ones actually claiming that the movie is some kind of Hindu Avatar. But they are claiming this MTD is some kind of Deism. And, there's an Avatar disambiguation page. Griswaldo suggested doing the same for Deism so I made Deism (disambiguation) and guess what? Right away someone wanted to delete it because they think these are all the same thing. DeistCosmos (talk) 12:06, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

DeistCosmos they are not apples and oranges at all, but I do agree that disambiguation might be needed for the same reasons it is needed with Avatar. Dab I think this might be the best solution. As I see it disambiguation is mainly to separate entries that are conceptually different but use (for whatever reason) similar terminology.Griswaldo (talk) 12:27, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

The topic isn't notable, so the article should be merged with the biography of the sociologist leading the team. Hopefully that will clear up all the confusion. Itsmejudith (talk) 12:40, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

But MTD still will be discussed there? So with that and ceremonial deism the disambiguation still is justified. DeistCosmos (talk) 04:13, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that would be appropriate. Sociologists coin neologisms all the time. Some are more felicitous than others; some catch on and others don't. (Whether there is any correlation between those variables I will leave to others to decide.) Perhaps this one is misleading, but we would need a source to assert that. If there is no source then we have to rely on the intelligence of readers who can click on Deism to learn more. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:10, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Just like the same-sex heterosexual marriage I said before. Can't challenge the proposition that same-sex marriage isn't "hetero" til someone writes an article saying "liberated heterosexual marriage isn't really hetero" - right? But not to worry, of someone writes that article our sexologists can just coin "fraternal heterosexual marriage" or "coequal heterosexual marriage" to keep making same-sex marriage "hetero." Black is white! Night is day! Freedom is slavery! DeistCosmos (talk) 12:01, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

is this thread even about any identifiable point at this stage? --dab (𒁳) 14:07, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

How about this point, there's a confabulated idea out there masquerading as Deism, and no one's allowed to say even a peep about it in either article. DeistCosmos (talk) 12:18, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2010-01-04/Longevity myths

This is worth looking at I believe, at least for those who don't think the word 'myth' should be driven from Wikipedia. Dougweller (talk) 18:06, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

The article seems like original research to me. Of course the word myth ought not to be driven from the Wiki but what's the encyclopedic value of that entry in the first place? What we don't need are Christian apologists and skeptics battling it out over their own non-scholarly understandings of "myth". Ugh.Griswaldo (talk) 18:37, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

I didn't look at the articles just skimmed the mediation. There's some serious argumentation about stupid things. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 19:00, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

The article is pretty odd. I'm debating whether I want to wade in and rewrite it - It could use it, but I'm not sure the effort would be worth the subsequent headaches. --Ludwigs2 19:54, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

I've been watching it for a while and wondering what on earth can be done with it. At first sight there seem to be two completely different issues covered: the myths and religious beliefs of pre-literate and proto-literate societies, and the modern - 19th century onwards - potentially verifiable stories about long-lived people. But perhaps also social anthropologists might see a continuity, so that in remote areas even today people tell stories about their long-lived elders in much the same way that they have done for millennia. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:14, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

A clear case of WP:TNT. At least split the pre-modern stuff from the "unverifiable claims" of modern provenance. --dab (𒁳) 14:06, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I used not TNT but a big pair of shears. Please feel free to be bolder. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:56, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Shears help, but is there really a category of myth called "longevity myth"? Perhaps claims of longevity are a minor motif in some myths and other traditional stories, but not a category of myth as far as I can tell. Most of the examples in the entry are claims of human longevity found within myths and other stories. It really does appear that myth is used in the entry in sense of "urban myths" or other falsehoods that can be debunked. My gut tells me that there is a subject matter here, something that does connect claims of longevity in traditional stories and even in contemporary settings, but if this subject matter has found its way into scholarship I'm not seeing it in the entry, and I wouldn't imagine it was through the study of "longevity myths".Griswaldo (talk) 17:36, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I think that perhaps longevity has been a topic or an example in the social anthropological/cultural anthropological study of myth and belief. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:19, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

While I would expect so ... do we know this for a fact? Are their studies of longevity in myth, or are we assuming that sources exist are because we like the topic? Blueboar (talk) 22:00, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

That's what I wonder as well. Like I said my gut says yes (at least in terms of motif) but some lazy research on my part hasn't turned much up yet ... though I emphasize the lazy part. Until something turns up I feel like this is original research.Griswaldo (talk) 23:17, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:List_of_hoaxes_on_Wikipedia#Longevity.2C_ticklish_situation. Forget everything I said above. Straight to AfD. Itsmejudith (talk) 07:59, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

The background of User:Ryoung122, who appears to be a primary author and defender of the entry adds more fodder to the "straight to AfD" suggestion as well. From what I can tell, his book uses the term myth strictly in the sense of "fiction" or "falsehood". In his book he "debunks" longevity claims. Of course skeptics also like to "debunk" some religious beliefs that originate in stories that are truly myths, in the technical sense, but I'm not seeing that part of the equation. Is anyone?Griswaldo (talk) 11:55, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

As the author of the hoax question, I thank you for noticing this issue, which was first challenged in 2004. But permit me to hold that it's not an AfD or shears material. There is a basic consensus at this family of articles (this one, then longevity claims, then list of supercentenarians, and not to mention such titles as list of centenarians (educators, school administrators, social scientists and linguists)) that all 110-year-old claims are notable, although more rigorous monitoring has traditionally started at 113. However, because most editors of these topics are acquaintances of Ryoung122 through the Yahoo group World's Oldest People (also attempted as a wikigroup WP:WOP), their original-research classifications have stood all these years, even against numerous policies. For instance, the 18th-20th-century cases listed (and just deleted) at this article are here primarily because the Group doesn't want them counted as longevity claims. We are in a promising situation building toward agreement on the distinction between these articles, but the bold editing just shown needs to be enfolded into this discussion. Now that y'all have stepped in while there is an ongoing mediation, linked above, I would ask you to contribute to "new consensus" by working the following questions.

1. Are all secondary-source 110-year-old claims in fact notable? That is the old consensus, in that 110 is the disciplinary definition of "supercentenarian", there are a manageable number of cases (under 1000 living), and the semi-arbitrary age 110 has the benefit of longstanding acceptance. The sudden deletion of much sourced material is troubling unless the consensus changes that this information is no longer valid for WP. Because this one looks so obvious to me, I'll be doing a careful WP:BRD revert so as not to lose the essential content (primarily contributed by myself, cough). Note that because of the recentism bias of the Group, these and many more classical sources have been overlooked, and could and should be brought to bear to bring the big-picture view of past longevity claims that WP is noted for.
2. Is there a distinction between more "modern" claims and more "traditional" claims? We have agreed there is but not on what it is, a subject of the mediation. The GRG/WOP group has pretty well said the only distinction is that claims of 131 years, 0 days, are false and thus "myths" (in the sense forbidden to WP by WP:RNPOV). I have no problem discussing the mythos of longevity (in the permitted sense), but as this board has noticed, there is zero sourcing of the topic of "longevity myths" in sociologists or mythologists: it is all done by gerontologists, who routinely use the word "myth" in the verboten sense. (Ryoung122 has failed for 18 months to provide on-point sources.) You will note that the age 131 years, 0 days, is very arbitrary and subjective, and, I think, math abuse (Ryoung122 admits it is based on a statement by scientist Jay Olshansky that 130 is possible but not 150, which is only one POV). Having studied the case closely, I proposed a minimal-fuss objective division point that properly addresses WP's need to WP:SUMMARY the material into separate articles and that is both a clear distinction and not a significant intrusion. I said that we could file an uncontroverted claim at (modern) "claim" if updated after 1955 (the beginning of Guinness World Records modern standards) OR if earlier but containing full birthdate and deathdate; and at the other article ("tradition" or "myth") otherwise. This means swapping only a handful of names from one article to the other, but Ryoung122 has not commented on this proposal yet. While any distinction between the two articles would be a form of OR, a subjective one based on flouting WP:RNPOV should be replaced by an objective one that is not much different from alphabetical breakdown.
3. What should the "traditional" article be called? As you note, "longevity myths" breaks policy. My attempts to go to "longevity traditions", "longevity stories", "longevity folklore" and the like have been fought tooth and nail. Given that the topic is notable and the division is objective, the question would be how to name it, as well as its associated category (currently forked into two categories "traditions" and "myths").

The various subcategory questions at mediation need not be addressed by this board, but these basic questions above are apropos and worthy of a consensus by outside Wikipedians that has not materialized for 6 years. JJB 16:02, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Comment I have to say that I fail to see the encyclopedic value of anything associated with this category -- Category:Supercentenarians. Have we become the guiness book of world records all of a sudden? Talk about WP:INDISCRIMINATE.Griswaldo (talk) 00:39, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

A significant rationale is that this area is rife for misinformation and that people who want to know what reliable sources say about any given supercentenarian they hear of would want a balanced article rather than to rely on the rarefied GWR, or any other nontertiary (noncomparative) source. If you see an unexpandable stub at any point, it can be merged back into a main article. But in general, most category members meet independent notability guidelines, or can be given to AFD individually in case you might disagree. Many of these predate GWR as well and WP is the perfect place to collate promoting mentions with debunking mentions insofar as both exist. And, yes, records in general are something we do quite a lot of, in our own way. Would you mind commenting more directly on my 3 board questions above? Thank you. This notability for individuals is not to preclude the axing of some of the regurgitative list articles based on WP:N and WP:NOR, especially when they can be shown to be overweight re-presentations of other articles. Dealing with the larger WP:WALLEDGARDEN of such articles needs many hands and is why my wife calls this thing "PickyWeedia". JJB 01:25, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

The same rationale is possible for any piece of information that someone could conceivably want to know. We do not collect and publish all such pieces of information as I understand it. You say the area is rife with misinformation, but so what? How does that make the information encyclopedic, and really how important is it for people to have the correct information available at Wikipedia about any given centenarian supercentenarian? I said this before but there are hobbyists who are obsessed with all kinds of things, I don't think we ought to publish all the lists of information that every such group likes to collect. As to your points above I've already expressed my views on the article. It is original research and ought to get the axe. Salvageable information in it should go elsewhere. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 04:14, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I said supercentenarians, not centenarians; there are less than 1000 living supercentenarians and most of them do not appear in secondary sources. The issue of lists of notable centenarians is another topic entirely. But I fail to see the OR today except for the title (18 months ago it was quite obvious). JJB 05:05, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Here is what the entry is based on. 1) A recent notion of maximum age and 2) an indiscriminate list of individuals (whether historical or mythical) whom someone claimed lived longer than they possibly could have. Mix and matching the historical and mythical is pretty "smack you in face" obviously OR. But don't take my word for it, take a good look at the big crater like hole in the entry's sourcing when it comes to reliable sources that actually treat this as a viable subject matter in its own right. I really don't know what more I can say about this, I feel like I'm repeating myself at this point, and not for the first time. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 05:25, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Merge back into longevity is the only solution I can see. 2-3 paras in that article, with links to the Sumerian kings, the Biblical stories, any other things that have their own articles. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:07, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for this information. Leaving aside the fact that those are all WP:SOFIXIT issues brought in by the 7 years of imbalance (there is no maximum-age notion left except for the one I am fighting in mediation; there is no claim of living "longer than they possibly could", as that makes a scientific judgment which scientists dispute; as for sourcing, other editors have ignored tertiary sourcing beyond Thoms, Boia, MPG and GWR, but I brought in the more comprehensive Haller 18th c., Hulbert 1825, Prichard 1836, Brewer 1905, Custance 1976, Wright 1996, Faig 2002), let me ask you a favor please. If you believe that not all people above a certain age (viz., 110) are notable for line-inclusion in lists, could you please start any AFD process by seeking consensus on some other article than this one that I've worked quite hard to bring up to standard? It looks like we have been spared some of the GRG specials like "last living people born in the 1890s", but here's some ideas for AFD:

• list of last veterans of World War I by country and branch of service
• list of the verified oldest men
• list of oldest people by year of birth
• list of Belgian supercentenarians
• list of oldest twins
• list of verified supercentenarians who died in 2009
• list of centenarians (miscellaneous)

I almost merged that last one myself but just didn't have enough impetus. Also ping me on the AFD because I don't watchlist them! If you want to work on the OR walled-garden, it is a much bigger field than the patch I've been working on last year and this year. Thanks! JJB 11:51, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Cleaning all this up needs a collective effort. Many hands make light work, and I suggest that you take this through WikiProject World's Oldest People. Get agreement on what makes a list notable, etc. But also from time to time bring in people completely outside the wikiproject, because the article we started off discussing here might have seemed OK to someone deeply involved in the topic, but it definitely didn't look OK to people coming to it out of the blue. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:05, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Done already (note date, and response). JJB 14:27, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I've proposed merger back into the parent longevity article; please join in the discussion on the talk page. Itsmejudith (talk) 08:33, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Seems like a sensible solution.Griswaldo (talk) 11:55, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

More eyes are needed at this page. "Longevity myth", as defined on this page is simply not a viable subject matter. It appears that some record experts and possibly even medical experts use a very sloppy notion of "myth" to encompass both actual myths that include characters who could not have lived as long as claimed, and urban myths, rumors and various other false but more contemporaneous claims to old age. If we do indeed care about the retention and proper use of terms like "myth" here on the encyclopedia then sorting this mess out would be helpful.Griswaldo (talk) 13:12, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank y'all for coming in despite our disagreements. I agree more eyes are needed but I propose we do this by adjourning from this board and continuing at the hot topic WP:COIN#User:Ryoung122 on Longevity myths, as well as the articles and an RFC I am likely to start. I am counting mediation on hold due to mediator's last edit being 21:47, 1 Oct. JJB 16:46, 12 October 2010 (UTC) Did it without RFC at Talk:Longevity myths#Questions to Griswaldo, thanks. JJB 17:55, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Old Turkic script

The section Old Turkic script#Variants looks very dubious, as do some of the the 'See all' links. Dougweller (talk) 14:13, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Plate tectonics

User:Oriel36 has been making some arguments on Talk:Plate tectonics in which he has a non-standard interpretation for the length of day and thinks that it has some bearing on geodynamics. I tried to talk him out of it, but after he failed to respond to my arguments and just condescendingly repeated himself (note: I'm a little annoyed right now, so you can neutralize that in your own head), I warned him that since his talk page contributions weren't aimed at improving the article, I would simply remove the section per WP:TALK if he tried to continue it... which he did, and I removed it. After that, he removed one of my talk page replies to someone else from earlier on that (a) was aimed at improving the article, and (b) is grounded in mainstream geology and geophysics; I'm guessing he removed it because it disagreed with his thoughts. In any case, I reverted his removal as vandalism, and am now stepping away from that article talk page. Assistance would be appreciated. Awickert (talk) 21:58, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Seems to be reopening an issue in a somewhat more reasonable way now; still, if someone can spare the eyes, a third party may be nice to have around. Thanks much, Awickert (talk) 08:49, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Orion Correlation Theory

An IP stating he is Robert Bauval has added quite a bit of content here which I've moved to the talk page as one of the main proponents he has too much of a conflict of interest. Some might be reinstated, but it needs to be discussed first. Dougweller (talk) 09:48, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

well. the stuff that is on the talk page seems a little be overkill to respond to the criticism about angles. Also, it needs some references. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 21:49, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Narwhal2 and Ralph Ellis

Narwhal2 (talk · contribs) has been adding reference to the fringe author Ralph Ellis to a number of articles. I posted to his talk page several months ago and asked him not to, but had no reply. He's started again today and I've reverted most. I also found this File:Baalbek-stoneofpregnantwoman.jpg. I'm not sure if this should be here, at RSN, or where. Dougweller (talk) 19:11, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Dougweller is nothing but a site vandal.

I improved the Deva Victrix page by adding a separate section for the elliptical building, as this is perhaps the most interesting building on the site. I also added a new section for the Market Hall inscription.

And then along comes Dougweller and deletes the whole lot, simply because it had a reference to Ralph Ellis in it. I doubt if Dougweller has even heard of the Deva fortress before now. So Wiki readers are denied any knowledge of the Market Hall inscription and elliptical building, because of what? Because of Dougweller's ego.

Ditto the other pages I added to. Had Dougweller even heard of the Elagabal of Elagabalus before today?? I doubt it.

These sections greatly added to these pages, and frankly it is sheer vandalism to just delete everything from this page.

Narwhal2 (talk) 19:48, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I've restored the Deva Victrix stuff, except of course the Ellis reference. Dougweller (talk) 20:17, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I hadn't heard of this gentleman before, but this book description from his website is elucidating:

"Contrary to orthodox perceptions, King Jesus and Queen Mary Magdalene were the richest couple in Syrio-Judaea. The Romans wanted to impose taxes on Jesus and Mary, an imposition that provoked the Jewish Rebellion. King Jesus fought and lost that war, and so he was crucified, reprieved and sent into exile in Roman England. In those remote lands, King Jesus became known as Atur-tii (the Egyptian) or 'King Arthur and the twelve disciples of the Last Supper Table'."

Cheers, ClovisPt (talk) 20:24, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Considering Dougweller has otherwise been an exemplary editor, and that Ralph Ellis seems to have fallen for and is cashing in on Dan Brown's bad writing, and Narwhal2's somewhat uncivil behavior, I'm going to side with Doug on this one. Ian.thomson (talk) 20:41, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Does seem to be both a WP:COI problem (good catch, Dougweller!) and a WP:FRINGE problem (per ClovisPt). That's a fatal combination (even though fringe itself is a very serious concern always, and coi also without corroborating independent sources). Does that explain the reaction of lashing out at others who point out this problem, and failure to see that it is a problem, because it's in essence an attack on his theory?--maybe. Does that excuse the behavior or make the content acceptable simply because he's his own best reference on it?--absolutely not. DMacks (talk) 09:03, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

copied from ANI:

•  Confirmed the following are socks of one another:

• Disranter (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• Arnatorim (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• Samosterat (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• Hoogson (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• Narwhal2 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)

checked byUser:Tiptoety

Ralph Ellis's been busy. :-) Dougweller (talk) 18:57, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Coanda-1910

Current version of Coanda-1910 is based on fringe theories supported with incorrect accounts of Gibbs-Smith and incomplete information of Frank H. Winter's 1980 article in The Aeronautical Journal!--Lsorin (talk) 18:00, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

So, this appears to be a dispute about whether or not this experimental aircraft counts as a jet-propelled aircraft. I'm not certain this is a clear WP:Fringe issue, but if a couple editors wanted to carefully look over relevant sources, they could probably reach a rough consensus on that issue. ClovisPt (talk) 21:06, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Consensus was tried and a form presenting both accounts was tried as well. The two editors supporting their version with Gibbs-Smith wrong accounts and incomplete Winter's article are not trying any consensus as the current version present only their side.--Lsorin (talk) 22:02, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Number inflation in Turkish People

Not sure if this is the right place, but this article suffers from major inflation of numbers in the infobox. The main problem is one of methodology: National censi are routinely ignored, and instead, a maximalist figure obtained from an often low-quality online source is used, typically without any explanation of how that figure is arrived at. This is done for many countries, and is clearly a pattern. Specifically:

• Germany: a figure of 3.5 million is used, based on nothing more than a press release by the German Embassy [2], without any explanation of how this figure is arrived at. The lower figure from the census is ignored [3].

• Iraq: A maximalist figure of 3,000,000, taken from Iraqi Turkmen advocacy groups is posted along side the generally accepted figure in Western sources of 500,000.

• UK: A figure of 500,000 is given, taken from this [4] source.

• US: Until recently, the only figure given was 500,000, which was taken from local websites such as "The Encyclopedia of Cleveland History" [5] (even the title is ungrammatical) and the "Turkish Society of Rochester NY" [6]. Both sources are moreover from 2005, while the data from the US census from 2008 [7] was relegated to a footnote on the most spurious of grounds [8].

• Australia: Until the census was recently added by me, the only figure given was taken from an article in the Sydney Morning Herald that casually mentions 150,000 in passing, without any further explanation [9].

• Greece: A maximalist figure of 150,000 is given based on POV advocacy sources such as these [10] [11], even though the Greek census shows that Muslims make up only 0.95% of Greece's population (~105,000, which includes about 35,000 Pomaks).

I could go on. Any attempt to discuss this on the talkpage is met with personal attacks, trolling, mockery, feigned victimization [12] [13] [14] and juvenile "retaliation" over at Greeks [15] [16].

Here's what I propose: For countries where current census data does exist, such as Germany, US, Australia, use the census data and only the census data, as is standard practice in all other ethnic group articles. If there is an issue that the census does not include those with ancestry, a footnote can be added as is done in Greeks regarding the number of Greeks in the US. POV advocacy sources should not be used at all (e.g. Iraqi Turkmen advocacy groups). Athenean (talk) 21:58, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Turks in the United Kingdom#65,000???? may also be relevant. Christopher Connor (talk) 02:56, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

I concur. The inability of this article to handle relatively simple facts in an unbiased manner is a real mark on Wikipedia. The article should stick with census data, offer a mention where there is a legitimate differing sum, and stay away from POV sources or sources throwing unsubstantiated numbers around in passing.Konchevnik81 (talk) 02:20, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Well do you actually know anything about the British Turks? Have you any expert knowledge? There are an estimated 200,000 Turkish Cypriot-born people living in the UK. The 65,000 figure is toally absurd.Turco85 (Talk) 15:23, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

It's not so much a question of "maximalism" vs. "minimalism", it's a question of what you want to count. In Germany, there are 3.5 million ethnic Turks, and 1.7 million Turkish citizens. This isn't a contradiction, it just means that Germany has 1.8 million citizens who are ethnic Turks. --dab (𒁳) 19:52, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, the issue is that many of the figures are backed by dubious or unreliable sources (e.g. for the US or UK), as opposed to sources that meet WP:RS. The method used is to scour the internet for a website that gives the largest possible figure, and then enter that information in the infobox so as to make the numbers as large as possible. This is a common problem in many ethnic group articles, not just here mind you. Athenean (talk) 19:56, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

that's just a matter of WP:RS, then. A serious reference will make clear whether it is talking about Turkish nationals or ethnic Turks. These are two entirely different questions (you can be a Turk but not a Turkish national, and you can be a Turkish national but not a Turk) and need to be treated seperately. You must avoid by all means to end up with a sum of "mixed" figures, some counting nationals and some counting ethnic Turks. --dab (𒁳) 13:07, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

dab, this is why I object to using firgures based on citizenship. A person with Turkish citizenship could be a Kurd, Armenian, Grek etc. Nonetheless, a person with Cypriot, Bulgarian, Greek, Iraqi, Syrian, Kosovan citizenship may actually be an ethnic Turk. Using citizenship figures is therefore not reliable. Furthermore, citizenship stats do not include ethnic Turks who have be naturalised citizens or who have been born in the host country. I would like to invite you all to discuss this further in the discussion page of the aticle in question...Turco85 (Talk) 15:21, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Stats can only be produced when data is collected. In the UK the 10 yearly Census of Population provides the definitive stats. That means the 2001 census, out of date, pity, can't be helped. It asked about ethnic origin, but there was no category for Turkish, so Turkish people presumably ticked "White Other" or "Other". It asked for place of birth, so we know how many people living in the UK in 2001 were born in Turkey or North Cyprus. If you want to know how many ethnically Turkish people live in the UK today, then you will be in big problems, because the census didn't ask. A demographer could make an estimate from the data held on school pupils, but has that been done? Unemployment is measured in the same way across Europe, so you might think nationality and ethnicity might be as well, but they're not, so there is no consistent way of counting how many Turkish people live in the various countries. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:34, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

The case for the UK is an interesting example: It is true that there are no reliable official figures, for the reasons you mention. However, there do exist estimates of 125,000-300,000 which appear in reliable sources such as these [17] [18], while The Independent, another reliable source, gives a figure of 300,000 [19]. True, these are nothing more than estimates, but at least they appear in reliable sources. This is in contrast to the figure of 500,000 which is taken from the Federation of Turkish Associations [20], a less reliable source. So while official figures are impossible to come by, and this is unlikely to change, it boils down to a question of estimates in various sources. To me at least, it is clear that the estimates from the more reliable sources should be the ones used in the article. Athenean (talk) 21:19, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

• Itsmejudith, it's great to see someone understands about census'...yes this is what I am trying to explain. However, I would like to add more to what you have said. There is an estimated 130,000 Turkish Cypriots who came to the UK from the TRNC which is not recognised by the UK. The Cyprus-born figure most likely only includes those TCs who came the the UK before 1983 as they immigrated with Cypriot passports; which makes it even more complicated.
• Athenean, please take into consideration that The Independent estimate of 300,000 was given 15 years ago. The Independent has also recently reported that a further 100,000 have been smuggled to the UK which would equal to at least 400,000 as the original 300,000 estimate would have increased even if 100,000 Turks were not smuggled to the UK.Turco85 (Talk) 22:35, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I would also like to say that I am now confused on what Athenean sees to be a reliable source. It seems as though if the estimate is a high one he/she believes it to be unreliable. e.g. Athenean sees The Independent's 1996 estimate of 300,000 British Turks as reasonable yet does not believe that the Embassy of the Federal Republic of Germany's 2010 estimate of 3.5 million Turks to be reliable.Turco85 (Talk) 22:47, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

So basically you're claiming that the number of Turks in the UK almost doubled in the 14 years since 1996? Outlandish, and pure WP:OR. Btw, these sources [21] [22] are from 2005 and 2009, and they are much more reliable. 19:30, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

No what I am saying is that 300,000 (1996 estimate) + 100,000 (recently smuggled in 2005) = 400,000. But what about the population increase prior to the smuggled 100,000? Are you saying that the population stayed at 300,000 for 15 years until 2005? And now you claim that academic sources are reliable. Before you was arguing that the figures used for Iraq is unreliable because we are using academic sources for them. So what is it Athenean? Your comments are all contradictory. I am sincerely confused with what you see to be a reliable source. Turco85 (Talk) 20:09, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

100,000 smuggled in 2005? Again outlandish. Do you have a source for that (for once)? I am getting bored by your OR. And I never said that academic sources are unreliable. The Federation of Turkish Associations is definitely not a reliable source. Athenean (talk) 20:14, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

The Independant in 2005 reported that 100,000 Turks had been smuggled to the country: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/gang-held-over-smuggling-100000-turks-into-britain-510591.html Why are you saying this is 'outlandish' for? You make it seems as though I come up with all these figures from thin air! Every stat I talk about in my arguments come from a source.Turco85 (Talk) 21:20, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

In your first comment you wrote the following the 'maximalist figure of 3,000,000, taken from Iraqi Turkmen advocacy groups is posted along side the generally accepted figure in Western sources of 500,000'... in the article we are using two academic sources [Park 2005 and Kibaroğlu, Kibaroğlu & Halman 2009] which both state that the population is disputed between 500,000 to 3,000,000. Turco85 (Talk) 21:26, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I also find it amusing that you find the 500,000 estimate of Turkish Americans by the Encyclopedia of Cleveland History as an unreliable source. If you type 'Encyclopedia of Cleveland History' in the wikipedia search engine you will see that there are 2,145 results!Turco85 (Talk) 21:35, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Exotic tribes of ancient India, Category:Exotic tribes in Hindu scripture

Just found a sizeable walled garden, apparently due to Jijithnr (talk · contribs), plus Sri Lankan additions by Wikinpg (talk · contribs), full of {{inuniverse}} articles inspired by the Sanskrit epics. I found this when I stumbled on and tried to clean upthis, and things just got worse the more articles I looked at (sigh).

• Rakshasa Kingdom & Raksha people vs. Rakshasa
• Pisacha Kingdom vs. Pisacha
• Gandharva Kingdom (ugh) vs. Gandharva
• Kimpurusha Kingdom (yes, "They could be a tribe of horse-warriors like the Kamboja")
• Kinnara Kingdom vs. Kinnara
• Naga Kingdom & Naga people (Sri Lanka) vs. Nāga

and probably others. --dab (𒁳) 14:20, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Is there any chance that this is a topic that has received attention from scholars who analyse the ancient Indian epics? Or is it pure synthesis? Itsmejudith (talk) 14:28, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

It is a valid topic of Hindu mythology, or more specifically of Category:Mahabharata and Category:Ramayana. So, the Rakshasas were a class of demons, and they figure as having a kingdom in the Mahabharata. Hence Rakshasa Kingdom either should be merged into Rakshasa, or it should become Rakshasas (Mahabharata), i.e. a WP:SS sub-article of Rakshasa focussing on their role in the Mahabharata.

As usual, the articles also need to be cleaned of their 85% useless cruft. I think as Wikipedians watching the Hindu articles, we slowly begin to understand just how the Mahabharata itself could end up as a 1.8 million word construct. --dab (𒁳) 14:31, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Do you still need assistance with this? I can see for example that Rakshasa is a sensible and informative article whereas Rakshasa Kingdom wants me to believe that the Mahabharata is a historical document. I will help if I can, but can only give a lay view. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:27, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Islamic problems at Eye of Providence

We seemed to have picked up one or more persons who are determined to insert material on a one-eyed antiChrist-like Islamic figure (sample edit). A sanity check and perhaps more eyes would be nice. Mangoe (talk) 13:01, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Origin of the Albanians#Genetic studies

This section of the article is a dreadful, incoherent mish-mash of unrelated items. Claims that Y Haplogroup J2 originated in Albania, that the Albanians are unmixed with other Balkan peoples (from "sources" such as this [23]), utterly irrelevant maps about the spread of Cardial pottery [24] (what this has to do with the article's subject is beyond me), you name it. This section was always a mess, but it has now grown out of control. Any help in cleaning up this section would be appreciated. Athenean (talk) 02:11, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't suppose I can just delete it? I think that would be an improvement... --Akhilleus (talk) 02:27, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I certainly would not object to that. Athenean (talk) 02:36, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I have replied here regarding this issue before. As you can see genetic section is present in many Balkan people related articles pretty much in the same format, while I didn't see user:Athenean complaining about that. Furthermore I don't understand the supposed fringe theory issue? I am curious to find out what kind of fringe theory is that and where it is stated?! As far as I see in the article there are only data related to haplogroups presented among Albanians and everything is properly cited. No theory of any kind. As for style of editing my version was somewhat primitive but the current form was made by Andrew Lancaster which is well known in wiki and outside for his contribution in genetic related articles. Look here and for about a year that section of article had been stable and right now is pretty much the same, although there was a lot of edit warring about the rest of the article. That means the Andrew has done an excellent job. But of course there are always places for improvement and genetic studies which are multiplied during recent years can help in improving that section, but that needs an expert in the field. Aigest (talk) 12:45, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi, Aigest mentioned the discussion so a quick comment. I worked quickly on this in the past and do not want to claim too much for it at all. It can certainly be improved. But on the other hand, needing work does not equate to being "fringe". There are lots of normal looking sources, so I think Athenean needs to explain why he has posted here? Just from what he has said so far though, I agree that the map of the Cardial culture does not have any reason to be there right now unless someone finds a reason. I'll have a look.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 19:20, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Have made some changes in order to reduce any potential controversy, at least in the Y DNA section. I see nothing not coming directly from the strongest sources available, and quite uncontroversial. If there are problem in discussions about other types of DNA I have not checked.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 19:28, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I object to any deletion of well sourced material in general. Could you please specify how the material is fringe theory? A cleanup tag would suffice. Grubi is a reliable source and his article is certainly WP:RS.--Sulmues ^(talk) 12:22, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, this genetic-basis-for-racial-origins material has been spread across multiple articles. It all looks like fringe science, if not outright pseudoscience.

Someone needs to look across the relevant noticeboards to what's already been discussed, and list the discussions here or in another central location for discussion. If I'm not mistaken there's a lot out there, including at least two related Arbcom's. --Ronz (talk) 19:30, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I think it is more complicated than that. Population genetics is an orthodox type of science, but the problems on WP come from the lining up of a few things:-

• It is a new field, so especially 5 or more years ago the academics themselves were still writing quite speculative stuff, without as much caution as they should have; and this was made difficult to reflect properly here also because there is still not much secondary writing.
• It is a very multidisciplinary discussion, which meant that for example there were geneticists trying to write about linguistics and vice versa, again leading to problems made worse by there not being much secondary writing. Again this was worse a few years back than it is now.
• Perhaps the most critical point is that people are very interested in it, especially people with interests in ethnic and national identity things, and so there are newspaper articles, press releases etc, (and this is also something academics encourage these days).

I believe the WP community is getting better at handling these issues, and also the field itself is maturing, but there were certainly a few years were it was a mess. The most difficult articles, because of their sensitivity, are generally those about the genetics of particular ethnic groups. Also Y haplogroup articles have had their troubles, mainly because these were heavily relied upon for a few years by both scientists and pseudo-scientists looking to explain the genetics of ethnic groups. With technology now moving ahead we are hopefully seeing more autosomal DNA studies which will give better balance to the field, and therefore hopefully also reflect upon WP articles. (Because WP articles are supposed to reflect whatever a field says.)--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:48, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)Ronz, there aren't any fringe sources or theories like others said and that part of the article needs some cleanup.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 08:33, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Longevity-cruft

Further to threads passim, what, if anything at all, is worth keeping from:

In my very humble opinion it is a walled garden guarded by WP:OWNers. Itsmejudith (talk) 13:11, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

• Don't forget everything here -- Category:Supercentenarians. Much of the material on these pages is sourced solely to the Gerontology Research Group (GRG), members and fans of which apparently belong to the same Yahoo group and edit these entries on Wikipedia almost exclusively.Griswaldo (talk) 15:11, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
• On their website the GRG describe themselves as "Physicians, Scientists, and Engineers dedicated to the quest to slow and ultimately reverse human aging within the next 20 years." I know nothing about gerontology but I wonder if this means they are at the fringes of the discipline. As a layman I would imagine most people who study aspects of aging do not share this objective.Griswaldo (talk) 15:19, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

From grg website [25] the prime mover is L. Stephen Coles. According to his bio he qualified in electronic engineering and then again in obstetrics and gynecology. But the source could be regarded as SPS. He has published mainly in Journal of Anti-Aging Medicine, now Rejuvenation Research, which seems to be the house journal of this group. It's starting to look on the fringey side. Are any of our resident biologists/medics around? Itsmejudith (talk) 15:38, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

For most everything they cite here, i.e., world records, they are as skeptical as the best of this board. They are also skeptical about resveratrol, Okinawa diet, and swamis. But as you two have noted, what they are is qualified gerontologists and amateur folklorists and (maybe) statisticians, and the allied editors are editing folklore and statistics. (It is probable that they have some basic grasp of statistics, but I have already presented evidence the prime mover Ryoung122 doesn't.)

As for the walled garden, I have been trying to rally for careful scope definition so we can determine what is WP keepable and what is plain vanity. As already said, I will back you up on the majority of AFD proposals. But I think a go-slow approach will work better to actually complete the massive job. I've thrown out all sorts of ideas for merge or delete in prior discussions. I would say, what do you two want to delete first, let me share my thoughts, and then we'll message WP:WOP and User:Ryoung122 and wait a couple days so we have a fair and notified start on AFDs. Going too fast would jeopardize a valid process by inviting accusations of, um, going too fast. JJB 16:57, 14 October 2010 (UTC) Actually I will make a recommendation: let's start with the three by-continent articles as the least defensible. I'd want to confirm I felt this way after reading the articles and histories, of course. (Yes I did just say delete prior to reading them, that shows how bad it is, hearing an inclusionist says that.) JJB 17:06, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Here's a great map of the garden! JJB 17:01, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm not very familiar with notability criteria for lists, but something that really strikes me is the lists of centenarians. We have to draw the line somewhere, and since these days a lot of people live beyond 100... Itsmejudith (talk) 17:14, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Read it as "list of notable centenarians". Those are actually tamer because they resemble the unimpeachable list of Eagle Scouts (notable), but their breakdown is arbitrary, the titles abysmal, and a merge-to-biglonglist not inconsiderable. Another take is that you could delete the main article as redundant with the template and keep it occupationally or alphabetically broken down. (An agreement on subarticle max size would be needed, 100K is accepted by many people, these articles are much shorter than that.) But "delete all" would be a steeper climb because there are more articles, and they're more of a WP-style topic taken over by WP:WOP and thus a fixit. As to supercentenary articles, they don't require notability, but the idea that they should require at least one secondary source per name is also often flouted and thus can be another entry point. JJB 17:32, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Regarding the list of centenarians, it might be best to turn the list into a list of only those centenarians who meet notability guidelines, specifically including WP:NE, which would mean that those who are only notable for having reached an advanced age would not be included. I have a feeling that might include a large number of them. John Carter (talk) 18:46, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Mi'kmaq hieroglyphic writing

There's a discussion here about Barry Fell and his idea that Mi'kmaq 'hieroglyphs' were Egyptian. Some other views would be useful on how it should be handled in the article. I'm not sure myself. Dougweller (talk) 20:21, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I thought that the chart of Fell's errors was undue weight. It's quite interesting, actually, but mainly to illustrate how the pseudoscientific mind works. It doesn't tell us anything about Mi'kmaq writing. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:09, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

IMO, that would be more appropriate in the Barry Fell article. At Mi'kmaq, we could simply say that there are fringe ideas about connections to Egyptian, link Barry Fell, and leave it at that. — kwami (talk) 21:33, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Fringe science?

I feel silly even bringing this here but I would like some outside input (for the record at least). Is this source fringe? It attempts to make a "scientific" case for what seem to be impossibly old ages in antiquity, apparently to justify the literal reading of the ages of Biblical patriarchs. Some assessment of this source for the record would be much appreciated. More attention in general to the longevity articles mentioned above would also be appreciated.Griswaldo (talk) 13:22, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if it's "fringe science", what matters is that it represents a significant POV held by millions of people about the subject (longevity traditions) and that on the point cited it agrees with an opposing significant POV held by millions of people, also cited to support the same point for balance. Since it's a mentionable (minority or majority) POV it is easy to name adherents, but what if I named them and somebody classed all of them together as fringe? This is an article about traditions from all eras and so it is appropriate to mention all POVs. This source challenge was advanced to object that the synthesis it makes (the same synthesis that the skeptical source makes), are not valid syntheses to appear in the article; so I reask my question from talk: what sourced synthesis would you accept to appear in the article? JJB 14:00, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

It surely can't be the case that millions of people agree with Arthur Custance, the author of the source Griswaldo linked to; I doubt that millions of people have read his work. An assertion that millions of people hold a particular opinion about soi-disant longevity traditions ought to be backed up with a citation to a reliable source; Custance doesn't appear to be a good source for this purpose. --Akhilleus (talk) 14:03, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I didn't say millions agree with Custance as having read him, thanks for inviting a strawman. The POV I mentioned is Biblical literalism, which I think based on its article is safe to attribute to millions of conservative Christians, although the number is intended as round. If you'd like me to find a source for that article indicating how many adherents it has, beside the list of scholars provided, that's a bit out of my scope right now. Can we at least agree that Biblical literalism is not a fringe position when the article is about interpreting Biblical and other ancient texts? Itsmejudith, a regular here, has just proposed taking the question to WikiProject Christianity, which I think is a very considerate compromise. Did you have any comments about whether the Biblical literalist POV, without using the source for any mention of science, was proper for an article on Biblical and other ancient sources? JJB 16:39, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

By the way, posting at WikiProject Christianity is just an idea I had, hoping to get more eyes on the article, especially people with experience in editing in areas that the article currently covers. I would also like to post at WikiProject Taoism. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:58, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

On the "biblical literalist POV", this isn't the right way to approach it. There is a massive scholarly literature on interpretation of the bible. The solution is to use prominent mainstream theologians, who between them have addressed every aspect. Custance isn't in that category, is he? Itsmejudith (talk) 23:09, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree w/both of Itsmejudith's comments. If it's important to establish that there are lots of people who believe in biblical stories of long-lived Israelites because they take a literalist approach to the OT, there are better sources than Custance. (And I haven't read the article, but this doesn't seem like an important point to make, anyway.) --Akhilleus (talk) 00:25, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

there are also lots of people who believe that they are the center of the universe, built so that a giant teat will lower itself to feed them whenever they make a hungry noise. These include all the world's below-four-month-olds. The question is, is this a relevant point of view? Wikipedia is already hopelessly biased towards the US American brand of infantile redneck Christianity. Not even so much in our accounts of Christianity, but ironically in our accounts of atheism: US American atheists apparently grow up learning that Christianity more or less equals full lobotomy. In reality, of course, outside the North American steppes, Christianity has a venerable and highly intellectual theological tradition. I am saying this here because this is yet another topic where there is a danger of treating "a literalist approach to the OT" as a valid and quotable school of thought within Christianity. --dab (𒁳) 07:32, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Nuclear semiotics

Nuclear semiotics (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views).

I'm at a loss. Between the nuclear priesthood and the atomic cats, I know not where to turn.

Is this WP:SYNTH? I can't tell.

Help!

ScienceApologist (talk) 21:26, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I think it's synth. Some could be merged into Thomas Sebeok, some into nuclear waste. I expect it is a concern in health and safety studies. Perhaps there are working parties that are notable, if so someone needs to point to the references and allow the articles to be created. Not a sub-discipline of semiotics. Is it a notable trope in science fiction? Probably not. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:41, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

It has three interwikis, for what it's worth. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 01:55, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with the article. Sure, it's an eccentric topic, but then this is Wikipedia. --dab (𒁳) 07:27, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

It seems to have been translated from German Wikipedia, hence the interwikis. Itsmejudith (talk) 07:30, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing this excellent find! I have no idea if it's synth, but frankly for this particular hilarious but apparently legitimate topic it doesn't seem to matter much. One of the sources is an article from Der Spiegel. I quote (in translation):

The team of 13, including engineers, sociologists, anthropologists, lawyers, nuclear physicicsts and behavioural scientists, enjoyed protection from the highest rank. The recently inducted Reagan administration acted as contracting body. When the commission presented its report in 1981, recommendations for a Stonehenge-style nuclear Grail were part of it. Responsible for the curious recourse to antiquity was Thomas Sebeok, then professor of linguistics and semiotics at Indiana University in Bloomington. His proposals would originate a dubious research area – nuclear semiotics was born.

I see a featured article coming for early April next year. Hans Adler 10:26, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Weston Price and Quackwatch

Some additional input would be nice at Weston Price where there is disagreement about whether or not to include a contemporary criticism of Price, now dead over 50 years, from Stephen Barrett of Quackwatch. A prior related discussion was held at the RS/N. See ...

• Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Is_a_paper_.28possible_blog.29_by_a_psychiatrist_valid_regarding_old_claims_regarding_dentistry.3F

My personal opinion is that Barrett's criticism is UNDUE in the entry. He's criticizing Weston for scholarship that during its time of production (almost a century ago) does not seem to have been fringe. Other editors have pointed this out in more detail than I have. Some comments from people more knowledgeable would be good here. In general some help might be good with the Weston entry, as it is not in a very good state over all either.Griswaldo (talk) 15:48, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for starting this discussion. I have a very different perspective on the dispute:

Weston Price is most notable today because of the two organizations that base their claims on Price's research, the Price-Pottenger Nutrition Foundation and Weston A. Price Foundation. Both organizations promote fringe theories.

It appears Price is notable (almost?) entirely due to the work of these organizations, as well as individuals and groups who also use Price's research for similar purposes.

Currently, the Quackwatch reference is the only one in the article that discusses how Price's research is used today.

My perspective then is that the article needs more and better references on Price's notability as a researcher cited for fringe theories. --Ronz (talk) 16:12, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

The thing is we already have an article on The Weston A. Price Foundation so the use (or possible misuse) of Price's theories belongs there. The Weston A. Price article is on the man himself--NOT what organization founded after his death have done with his theories.

As for notability that is kind of sticky as Weston A. Price was certainly notable in his own time (It looks like his obituary appeared in the New York Times and tribunes and memorial articles appearing in Journal American Academy Applied Nutrition and Modern nutrition) He was also the Chairman of the Callahan Memorial Award Commission in 1922.--BruceGrubb (talk) 07:35, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Any other notability of Price remains to be seen. --Ronz (talk) 16:08, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Price was very notable in his own time.--BruceGrubb (talk) 21:51, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Frankly I'm not certain why this discussion is on this noticeboard. I don't think Price's views are given undue weight, nor is the concept of nutritional effects on teeth fringe theory with regard to processed foods. Even my own dentist has admitted that. Barrett tried to make the point that if you introduce these tribes to western foods they would develop a sweet tooth and over eat on candy; and of course their teeth would rot (I'm paraphrasing).

"Price knew that when primitive people were exposed to "modern" civilization they developed dental trouble and higher rates of various diseases, but he failed to realize why. Most were used to "feast or famine" eating. When large amounts of sweets were suddenly made available, they overindulged. [Barrett]"

Well anyone that's every traveled to a Caribbean island would know that these people have their own forms of "sweets" from the products they've grown for centuries, that are not produced in a factory using artificial ingredients (i.e., processed). So the business of trying to paint Price a simpleton because he didn't account for this obvious fault in his study is ridiculous. Furthermore the age of observations and studies is not a determinant of the validity of the results today. Until we see proper studies that refute Price, we shouldn't be assuming them. Does everyone or Price's theories have to be correct, to bring Price out of the finge? If so, then should we label the hydrogenation of oleo as fringe too? Didn't we all grow being told it was healthier than butter, only to find out later it wasn't? --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE _{GOOD WORKS} 13:33, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

It's being discussed here because Price is most notable today for a researcher whose works are used to promote fringe theories.

This is not a venue for apologetics for Price. --Ronz (talk) 16:08, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Please acquaint yourself with WP:Recentism. Thank you. Hans Adler 16:49, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

I've written my comments about the situation with WP:Recentism in mind, as I'd hope my repeated use of "notability" indicates. Others agree with my notability concerns. Let's not beat a dead horse. If you have specific concerns that haven't been addressed by myself or others, please bring them up. --Ronz (talk) 17:37, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Nor is it a venue to critique one person's work based on another's use. Maybe you should bring those articles in here instead. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE _{GOOD WORKS} 16:19, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Thankfully, no one is doing that. How about we keep the discussion to what is actually happening? --Ronz (talk) 16:24, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

I am. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE _{GOOD WORKS} 17:50, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

I have two thoughts. 1) a discussion of the impact of someone's theories/researches after their death is appropriate for the biography. and 2) Use of Barrett and Quackwatch should be limited as, he is more focused on debunking of theories than on straight up evaluations of them. If no one else cares to discuss the fringey-ness of Price's old theories, it might be best to keep it short. Full discussion of the fringey-ness of the various foundations who promote fringe off his work in their own articles is warrented, imo. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 16:34, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

As I said over in Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Is_a_paper_.28possible_blog.29_by_a_psychiatrist_valid_regarding_old_claims_regarding_dentistry.3F Barrett has serious problems.

Barrett: "While extolling their health, he ignored their short life expectancy and high rates of infant mortality, endemic diseases, and malnutrition."

Price: "This physician stated that there were about 800 whites living in the town and about 400 Indians, and that notwithstanding this difference in numbers there were twice as many Indian children born as white children, but that by the time these children reached six years of age there were more white children living than Indian and half-breed children. This he stated was largely due to the very high child mortality rate, of which the most frequent cause is tuberculosis." (Chapter 6)

"The changes in facial and dental arch form, which I have described at length in this volume, develop in this age period also, not as a result of faulty nutrition of the individual but as the result of distortions in the architectural design in the very early part of the formative period. Apparently, they are directly related to qualities in the germ plasm of one or both parents, which result from nutritional defects in the parent before the conception took place, or deficient nutrition of the mother in the early part of the formative period." (Chapter 19)

"It is important to keep in mind that morbidity and mortality data for many diseases follow a relatively regular course from year to year, with large increases in the late winter and spring and a marked decrease in summer and early autumn. [...] I have obtained the figures for the levels of morbidity for several diseases in several countries, including the United States and Canada." (Chapter 20)

"Dr. Vaughan in her reference to the data on the annual report of the chief medical officer, the Minister of Health, states as follows: Our infant mortality returns show that over half the number of infants dying before they are a year old die before they have lived a month..." (Chapter 21)

The direct quotes from Price's own book showed that he was very much aware of the high rates of infant mortality of native peoples and the effects of endemic diseases so where is Barrett getting this idea that Price ignored these factors? Worse for Barrett, Price wrote this in a 1923 book called Dental Infections, Oral and Systemic: "since 1870 the average length of life has been increased by fifteen years, that marked reduction has occurred during this period in infant mortality and in mortality due to tuberculosis, typhoid, smallpox and many other diseases."

Short life expectancy, high rates of infant mortality, and endemic diseases being eliminated by modern culture were addressed by Price years before and more over Price uses this very book as a reference in Nutrition and Physical Degeneration (Chapters 2 and 18). But according to Barrett claims Price ignored the very things Price himself noted in 1923 even while referencing said work. Does this make a lick of sense?!?--BruceGrubb (talk) 22:20, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Barrett is not an WP:RS on this subject matter at all as far as I can see, and this is just evidence of that fact. Arguing for the inclusion of Quackwatch here is not only a detriment to the entry but also a detriment to Quackwatch in the areas when it is a useful source.Griswaldo (talk) 22:57, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

One could hardly wish for a clearer proof that Barrett simply makes things up rather than doing any research. What I find really worrying is that with this level of laziness, dishonesty, or whatever it is – in any case lack of professionalism – in one area, it seems hard to defend Quackwatch as a reliable source on anything, and we need something like it. The key question for me (although probably not very relevant to the Price article) is now whether this is a unique error or whether this reflects Barrett's general MO. Hans Adler 23:13, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm not the right person to ask about this, but I was under the impression that there are areas where issues are so fringe that mainstream sources of better quality are hard to find refuting the fringe sources, and that something like Quackwatch is all one is left with. However, I am now also wondering if Barrett is "reliable" for anything given how grossly unreliable he appears to be here. I'm sure there are those who know more who want to respond here though.Griswaldo (talk) 23:22, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Can we please drop the strawmen on how Quackwatch is being used as a source? No one is even proposing that the source be used in the ways discussed above. Also, please note that WP:BLP applies in discussions about Barrett. --Ronz (talk) 23:31, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Let's back up the burn-Barrett bandwagon for the moment. Barrett is spot-on with his criticism of holistic dentistry and is probably the best independent source we've got on this obscure alt. medicine. His dismissal of Price is inexact but not ridiculously out-of-line compared to the outrage I'm seeing expressed here, on the RSN thread, and the article talkpage. What is needed here are sources on the subject. I've been unable to find many. This makes me very nervous. In my first brush with research, I've discovered, for example, that Price was a prominent eugenicist until he renounced it in the 1930s [26] which seems to be all but absent from the Price Foundation's website: [27]. The source I reference is quite good, but makes me think that what is needed is a competent researcher to solve this problem. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:36, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

The problem with what Barrett and QuackWatch do (and with skepticism as a rule, IMO), is that it's far, far closer to informed social commentary than to science, but they don't seem to realize or acknowledge the distinction. QuackWatch's raison d'etre is to inform people about potentially dangerous/unreliable procedures and practices, but he's more concerned with the opinion-mongering side of that equation (the 'informing people' bit) than he is with the actual analytic process of distinguishing good practices from bad. Basically, QW is a skeptics' clearing-house: It will pick up on anything that sounds suspicious, problematic or unlikely, and get information about it out there long before there's any significant research that confirms the suspicions. As a public service that has some good points - sometimes it takes proper science a long time to catch up with dangerous techniques, and people should have fair warning even of rumors that some practice might be bad - but the people inclined to do that kind of thing (Barrett being no exception) have a horrible tendency to overindulge in questionable critiques. Barrett isn't qualified to act as a scientific source on most of the things that appear on QW. He does work as a journalistic source in a number of cases, but he swings between Walter Cronkite moments and Glenn Beck moments, so you usually have to dig a bit deeper to see whether what he's said is at all credible in any particular case.

He does have a following on wikipedia, which makes things difficult, but I don't suppose there's anything new or unique about that. --Ludwigs2 23:52, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

British Israelism‎

There's an IP there trying to push a POV on a line in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle copied from Bede, where historians agree that the scribe, probably because the name Armenia was just a few lines above, wrote that the British came from Armenia rather than what Bede wrote, Armorica. His latest edit (his first was arguing that the mention of Armenia confirms the Declaration of Arbroath adds the word 'critics' to suggest that only critics think this. I've edited there twice in the last 24 hours, so... Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 08:59, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

That whole section should go unless it's actually summarising the views of early BI theorists.which it does not appear to be doing. In any case, the Declaration of Arbroath does not seem to refer to Israelite tribes at all, except to date the migrations of the Scots. It never claims that the Scots are descended from Israelites. [28] Paul B (talk) 09:30, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Rosicrucianism

I removed mention of Rosicrucianism from 1313. It is "regarded as their founding date", but since it is an esoteric movement there is no real reason why the date should be regarded as historic in any way. It is a legendary founding date. All the articles about Rosicrucianism seem to be beset with in-universe speculation. It needs close attention because this is a notable part of early Enlightenment thought. In regard to the Rosicrucian Manifestos I would like to know: were they written in Latin, German or bits of both? Are the original texts online at reliable hosting sites? Dab, if you could have a look I know you could distinguish fact from fiction in this area. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:36, 18 October 2010 (UTC)