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GarnetAndBlack: Incivility, gaming the system, ownership, bad faith bias in edits, retaliatory editing

I am reporting GarnetAndBlack for continuous hostility and incivility, biased editing of pages regarding Clemson Tigers football and related pages due to his hatred for Clemson University, bad faith edits such as ["throwing the baby out with the bathwater"], and retaliatory editing when positive information about Clemson Tigers football is added to the page and related articles. I will provide evidence links upon request, but please be aware that much of this evidence has been deleted by GarnetAndBlack and will probably need an administrator to access it.

The pages in question: Carolina-Clemson rivalry, Clemson Tigers football, Dabo Swinney, Clemson-South Carolina football brawl, Memorial Stadium

Incivility GarnetAndBlack, a South Carolina Gamecocks fan, has a repeated history of hostility and incivility towards anyone who is a fan of the rival school, the Clemson Tigers. Attempts to make good-faith edits that are factual and well-sourced are met with immediate deletion. GarnetAndBlack demands that a consensus be made on a Talk page before a change can be made, yet often times he and I are the only ones editing the pages. He then refuses to engage me in open discussion by either ignoring my polite requests for dialogue or by exhibiting hostility and/or threats. He will often delete discussion topics to hide this fact.

GarnetAndBlack often baits users into arguments and responds with personal attacks. Most recently, he called me a "tough guy" when I pointed out Wikipedia policies to him. He also questioned my reading comprehension when I made a change that was from a direct quote to the source. When editing Clemson Tigers pages to update information about Clemson losses, he often adds snide comments or trash talk in the comments section to goad Clemson fans into arguments (of which I ignore).

Attempts to reach out to GarnetAndBlack are futile. His editing practices show that he harbors an extreme hatred for all things Clemson, and looks down on any input or attempt to discuss articles from Clemson fans.

Gaming the System Per Wikipedia's policy on [the System], GarnetAndBlack often uses Wikipedia policies and guidelines as threats. He will commence in edit warring and excessive reverting over well-sourced and factual items, yet threaten users who try to revert the material back. In other words, he believes it acceptable for him to violate the policies yet threatens others he believes have done the same. He then demands a consensus be reached even though few (and most of the time, just us) people edit the articles. He even claims that factual information is POV even though he has made POV edits that contradict the very sources he links.

Please note that I have backed off these pages as recently as today to avoid edit-warring with him. This is even after my edits were well-sourced and did not reflect POV. It leaves me frustrated as an editor as I feel I cannot contribute to Wikipedia topics I am passionate about. Because GarnetAndBlack knows I will back down to prevent an edit war, he persists with his bullying tactics.

Only when a third party request has been brought in has GarnetAndBlack finally conceded, leading me to conclude that he simply opposes the edits because they are made by a Clemson fan. For example, on the Carolina-Clemson rivalry page, GarnetAndBlack refused to allow the editing of irrelevant information about minority enrollment that he thought painted Clemson in a bad light. In a similar incident, he refused to allow the removal a highly-questionable and racist 1930s book that he cited as a credible source. Only after a fellow South Carolina Gamecocks fan agreed with me did he concede.

Ownership GarnetAndBlack has also staked ownership[[1]] of the articles in question, particularly the Carolina-Clemson rivalry article, per Wikipedia description. In fact, many of his demands are almost verbatim from the Wikipedia description of page "ownership" (all are direct GarnetAndBlack quotes):

"... no attempts at revisionist history or deletion of well-sourced and verifiable material will be tolerated at this article..."

" A previous editor clearly spent a good deal of time adding this material, and providing proper references, and this work will be preserved. Attempts to remove this material without consensus will be reverted as vandalism."

"The statistic is relevant, verifiable and sourced, and it will be restored." (After third party intervention, he admitted this wasn't true)

"Continued POV sanitization of this article by fans will not be tolerated..." (following a revert)

"...take it to Talk if you want to try to seek new consensus." (following a revert)

"Now take it to talk and seek PROPER consensus." (following a revert)

"Again, you seem to be operating under the belief that your opinions carry weight at Wikipedia. They do not."

"If you're going to edit an article, make sure you have the first clue about the subject material."

Of course, he knows no consensus will be reached because no one joins in the discussion and he avoids it.

Bad faith biased edits As a Clemson Tigers fan, I do not feel I am the best person to edit South Carolina Gamecocks pages due to my own bias. Therefore, I try to refrain. However, GarnetAndBlack watches Clemson pages like a hawk and works hard to maintain or add negative information about Clemson even when the facts are questionable or irrelevant (such as the minority enrollment). Aside for his disparaging and insulting comments about Clemson, he often over-states Clemson's negative information, such as continuous harping on Clemson's 70-33 loss in the Orange Bowl in 2012. However, if similar information were to be added about South Carolina, he would remove it and demand a consensus.

His hateful opinions alone make me question whether or not he should be editing pages regarding Clemson Tigers football.

GarnetAndBlack often "throws the baby out with the bathwater" per Wikipedia's guidelines on this matter. Rather than make easy corrections or changes, GarnetAndBlack will delete entire text based on technicalities if the text paints Clemson in a positive light. For example, a few days ago, he deleted accolades about Clemson coach Dabo Swinney's college career because one source was missing. He then deleted an entire paragraph about Swinney winning the Bobby Dodd Coach of the Year Award in 2011 because he claimed the brief description of the award was "practically" lifted word-for-word from the award's website (it was not and falls under fair use anyway).

Retaliatory editing GarnetAndBlack follows me around Wikipedia religiously. When I attempt to make changes to Clemson articles to post factual, sourced positive information, one of two things will happen: He will either remove it and make demands/threats as previously stated, or he will make a new change to the article that either removes other positive info on technicalities or adds negative information. This will come after months of inactivity from GarnetAndBlack only to emerge after I make a change. If he can't find cause to remove my well-sourced facts, he'll try to one-up me with a negative counter edit.

Past history When I came to Wikipedia a year ago, GarnetAndBlack and I immediately butted heads. I admit that my actions were not wise and I paid the price for it per Wikipedia's rules. You can see this on my Talk page. Being new to Wikipedia, I jumped in without realizing what I was doing. However, instead of trying to guide me and help me along as a new user, GarnetAndBlack immediately went on the attack when he realized I was a Clemson fan and put his bad faith practices to use. Since realizing the error of my ways a year ago, I've tried to be proactive and work with him through compromise and discussion. These efforts are futile, and I cannot reach a consensus for edits because GarnetAndBlack has chased other editors away.

Conclusion I want to contribute to Wikipedia to articles I'm passionate about and knowledgeable about. I try to make sure my additions are well-sourced. I'm open to compromise as my history shows, which is as recent as yesterday on Carolina-Clemson rivalry talk. However, I feel I am being met head-on by someone who hates my alma mater and despises me for being a part of it, therefore he refuses to work with me in the spirit of Wikipedia. I don't despise GarnetAndBlack's school. In fact, I do work for them that helps bring students to the University of South Carolina.

I don't believe GarnetAndBlack can see the error of his ways, and I conclude that he should no longer be permitted to contribute to the aforementioned pages or other pages relating to Clemson University. However, I am hoping he would be willing to agree to some serious reconciliation and change in attitude towards how he works with others. His pattern of behavior leads me to believe this isn't possible as his hatred for Clemson is too deep-seated.--LesPhilky (talk) 02:58, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

A small sampling evidence of hatred and bias against Clemson. Notice twice he calls us a "redneck" fanbase:

1. " Also, it's absolutely precious how you Clemson people have come out of your shells (and hiding) after one little bowl victory. Almost as funny as when I see Tiger fans around town these days and give them a friendly wave...with four fingers, of course. :)" GarnetAndBlack (talk) 08:56, 6 January 2013 (UTC) User_talk:LesPhilky#WP:DRRC

2. "Oh, and thanks for showing the world how low your redneck fanbase is by making light of a teenage kid's injury. You stay classy, Clemson." GarnetAndBlack (talk) 04:14, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[2]

3. "Fear the thumb." (This references to the possibility of SC beating Clemson five years in a row) GarnetAndBlack (talk) 18:50, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[3]

4. 09:20, 25 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+45)‎ . . 2012 South Carolina Gamecocks football team ‎ (→‎Clemson: FOUR IN A ROW)

09:19, 25 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (-61)‎ . . 2012 Clemson Tigers football team ‎ (The streak is over...FOUR IN A ROW) Two cases of trash talk towards Clemson fans while updating an article.

5. "Never thought I'd see the day where a Clemson fan pretends to be a Bama fan, but after 3 straight ass-whippings by your rival and the worst loss in a century of bowl game history, can't say I blame you rednecks for trying to hide behind schools that actually have the football tradition that you pretenders only wish you had. Wait a sec...is that you Dabo? LOL" GarnetAndBlack (talk) 04:57, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[4]

6. 03:54, 11 May 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+270)‎ . . User talk:LesPhilky ‎ (Sammy Potkins LOL) Derogatory reference to Sammy Watkins, a Clemson player arrested for simple marijuana possession.--LesPhilky (talk) 03:23, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Finally, after posting a notice to GarnetAndBlack's talk page about this notification, this was his reaction:

(diff | hist) . . User talk:GarnetAndBlack‎; 03:26 . . (-535)‎ . . ‎GarnetAndBlack (talk | contribs)‎ (Undid revision 532099323 by LesPhilky (talk) Sorry, not participating in an absolute joke perpetrated by a hypocrite guilty of exactly the same conduct he is reporting me for)--LesPhilky (talk) 03:39, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

• OK, this is not a very well-formed report. It would be helpful if you included properly formatted diffs; it is very difficult for me to assess what's going on. Second, given the length of this report (which is a bit excessive) and the length of time during which the incidents took place, I'm wondering if this is the best place for it: this is not, I think, a single incident or set of incidents, and that's what this board is for. But I tell you what: I'll have a look at the editor's comments, and I'll have to look at your own as well. Drmies (talk) 03:44, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

I was referred to this page by another admin. I was not aware there was a length requirement. I was trying to give as much information as possible to assist you in this matter. There are similar complaints filed and addressed on this board in this manner.--LesPhilky (talk) 05:43, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but no: they are filed more concisely and with correctly formatted diffs, so we don't have to dig through stuff to find what your complaint is based on. Drmies (talk) 16:19, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

• LesPhilky, this is not OK. First of all, that particular heading takes two "==" signs. Second, your counterpart had removed it--you have no valid excuse for reinserting it; a user can do that on their own user page. Third, I am a bit surprised by the tone you adopted in that message: it is really not acceptable. You are speaking in a very patronizing manner, and I'm not surprised that your opponents gets a little pissy with you. Now, I forgot which one of you was the Clemson fan and which one was the South Carolina fan, and I guess it doesn't matter; let it just be known that I roll with the Tide and I'm feeling pretty good about it. Drmies (talk) 03:57, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

I've tried every method I could to interact with GarnetAndBlack, and I was reaching out here in an attempt to point out certain policies with hopes he would adhere to them. I made no threats, and I'm not sure how you can assume the inflection of my tone from my writing. I also did not know not to reinsert the text; once he informed me of this, I ceased the practice. I'm also sorry about the heading, but is that really an important matter in the grand scheme of this issue?--LesPhilky (talk) 05:43, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Drmies, all you need to know about the user who filed this absurd report can be found on his own Talk page in the following comment[5] made after he was blocked 24 hours for a 3RR violation, "You and the admins may have the opinion that you taught me a lesson, but I learn my own lessons. This block didn't teach me anything." Speaks volumes, I think. Congrats to Bama for a great game last night and yet another championship for the SEC. Hope to see y'all in Atlanta next December. Go Cocks and Roll Tide. GarnetAndBlack (talk) 04:11, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

As I mentioned above, I take responsibility for my errors a year ago and have taken steps to be proactive and edit in good faith. GarnetAndBlack has not changed any of his behavior. And since he's dredging up history from over a year ago, I'd like to cite for the record that he called my wife a "sheep". Is there a policy on this, Drmies?--LesPhilky (talk) 05:43, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

• Well, that was fun. What I should do is warn you both for edit-warring and block the next one who starts fighting over little bitty things like who hit a piece of rock with a hammer, or whether a coach expressed disappointment or not. It's almost too stupid for words--almost, but not quite, because in those two cases it seems to me that Garnet is correct. (And I'm trying not to be an editor here as well, but Garnet is, i think, correct in this one as well. It is clear that you two can't get along, but unless one of you backs off or gets blocked you'll just have to. On the talk page. If needs be with RfCs on these individual questions. You know what's so silly about this? You two are fighting like two Auburn fans over a dirty sock possibly left by Cam Newton in a dorm room, and you're missing totally obvious stuff like a stupid Facebook link in the first sentence and a bunch of bare URLs in the article. Figure it out on the talk page--if you can't, perhaps both of you will have to be made to stop working on this article. Oh, one more thing: if people talk football smack, they will be smacked back. It's a law of nature. I see nothing too objectionable in the various remarks, and will hope that someone else can bear to look over this thread and close it. Beware, Les, of the WP:BOOMERANG.

  Garnet, thanks for your kind words and invitation; it's not likely to get that far, though we'd love to show Spurrier one more time who the real SEC powerhouse is, hehe. Drmies (talk) 04:20, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

With all due respect, I'm not sure you understood the point of my complaint. I'm not debating content of articles. I'm documenting a repeated pattern of hostility, incivility, biased editing fueled by hatred, and violation of Wikipedia policies. You've summarily dismissed all of these and focused on matters I'm not addressing. And as I mentioned above, I agreed with GarnetAndBlack on the coaches dispute.

Again, I've stated that I've tried to discuss these matters on the various talk pages and I'm either ignored or threatened (or he just deletes it). The only time he has conceded (and finally admitted that he was pushing irrelevant and damaging information) was when a third party came in to point it out to him. Do you believe GarnetAndBlack is editing Clemson-related pages in WG:AGF? Or maybe a better question would be how would you react if an Auburn fan were acting the same way in regards to Alabama pages?

Finally, is there a chance an admin who is unaffiliated with an SEC team or college football at all can also consider this issue? No offense meant, Drmies, but I have found the SEC fans tend to stick together a bit in conflicts. You'll have to excuse my doubt that you "forgot which one of us was a Clemson fan and which was a South Carolina fan" when the complaint not only clearly lays this out, but his name is "GarnetAndBlack".--LesPhilky (talk) 05:43, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

a. This may come as a surprise to you, but I don't have the foggiest what "Garnet and Black" means. I suppose these are the South Carolina colors? The world is much bigger than your state, Les. I don't accept some nonsense about SEC fans sticking together: that's bullshit, and you should take that back. FYI, the very chair I'm sitting on was owned by a dear colleague, a Clemson grad who now works at --GASP!-- the U of Alabama. You may think that all the world's a football fan too drunk and too ignorant to lay aside their zeal, but you're wrong. Here, I am a Wikipedia editor, but I see no reason to defend myself from a ridiculous charge--yes, I have stopped beating my wife. I couldn't care less if an Auburn fan edited some Alabama page, as long as they're not being disruptive--and as I pointed out above, in the two specific edits I looked at your opponent seemed to have the sources on their side. Now, in regard to the repeated pattern you want to point at, I did not find much evidence for something actionable (but I'm about to read what another editor added below), and that's in part because the pot is calling the kettle black, and in part because of the less than suitable presentation. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 16:19, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Propose topic ban for LesPhilky and GarnetAndBlack from all articles related to the Carolina-Clemson rivalry

This is absolutely ridiculous. This sort of childish bickering from the both of you is way out of the realm of productive editing. There is plenty more. This isn't new though, here is more of the same from months ago: [6] [7]. Blocks would accomplish nothing here. This is not to mention the several edit wars that you have both been involved in. It is obvious that you cannot conduct yourself within what is expected of Wikipedia editors when editing about this topic. Therefore, I propose that both editors be topic banned from all articles related to the Carolina-Clemson rivalry, broadly construed, for a period of 6 months. At that point we can reevaluate this measure. If there is not support for this, then (barring consensus to the contrary) I intend to block both users for a period of 1 week, to be followed by an indefinite block if that proves ineffective. Prodego ^talk 07:06, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

If that is what you deem the best course of action after reviewing my post, then I will accept it like an adult and not dispute it.--LesPhilky (talk) 12:25, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support, months long content disputes. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 07:10, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
• I think just indefing them would be most productive but, sure, maybe a topic ban could solve this --Guerillero | My Talk 07:48, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
• Throw in a full-bore interaction ban, clarify if "broadly construed" also means articles about Clemson and Carolina sports teams, and I'll be quite happy to stop this puerile pissing contest like this. Shame on both editors for this display - so much for higher education (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:29, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support topic ban of both editors from articles about Clemson and Carolina sports teams, and an interaction ban per Bwilkins. Though GarnetAndBlack has the more impressive record at the admin boards, LesPhilky has been several times at the 3RR board, though each person was sometimes there as the filer of the report and not the person reported. Though GarnetAndBlack has caused more trouble overall, it will be simpler to have the topic ban apply to both parties. In terms of block log, each party has been blocked 24 hours on this issue in the past. Per Prodego, if the topic ban is not approved then escalating blocks should be considered. EdJohnston (talk) 16:03, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your attention in the matter, and I will refrain from butting heads with GarnetAndBlack in the future. I honestly don't enjoy these battles.--LesPhilky (talk) 17:17, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support an interaction ban and a topic ban. Prodego et al, thank you for digging deeper than I had energy for last night. I can't judge right now which of the two is worse (though of course I'll ALWAYS side with the guy from the SEC!), but it's clear that the combination of the two makes for an unhappy cocktail, kind of like a Boilermaker, which is an abomination (every Bama fan knows you do shot of bourbon at the beginning of every quarter, and adulterating whiskey with beer is just blasphemy). Let's see if these editors can find other interests on Wikipedia. Drmies (talk) 16:25, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Or you down your whole flask after the first quarter, like I did when we played you in 2008. Congrats on your title.--LesPhilky (talk) 17:17, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Oooooh, that first remark is an unwarranted personal attack and I'll block the hell out of you for it. Thanks for the second one--in all honesty, my contribution was limited to yelling, but it sure felt good. Les, nothing against you or your opponent, or y'all's schools, but clearly this isn't productive. I hope at some point you two will meet and eat some gigantic baconcheeseburgers and drink a few beers and talk about the good old days. Drmies (talk) 18:03, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree, and I'm sorry it went this far. And I hope Clemson keeps y'all off our schedule for a while. My wife still nags me about my debauchery after the butt-stomping y'all put on us.--LesPhilky (talk) 19:05, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

In my opinion GarnetAndBlack is "worse", but both editors are quite too far. We can throw in an interaction ban if we want, I'm do not want to do that without seeing if the topic ban resolves the interaction issue. Most of the interaction has been fighting over these articles or personal attacks which can be dealt with in the usual way. That isn't the usual case for an interaction ban. I'd rather prefer a ban on discussing football, but again that's something I'd rather leave to the future.

"Articles related to the Carolina-Clemson rivalry, broadly construed" includes but is not limited to articles relating to the rivalry, both schools and their sports teams, games, coaches, and players.

Drmies, I'd rather you not block anyone. Also if you could stop the SEC comments, I suspect they are a joke but it doesn't translate too well to text. Prodego ^talk 18:57, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, he was joking, and I took it as such. No harm. And I will avoid disputes with GarnetAndBlack in the future even if you decide against the interaction ban.--LesPhilky (talk) 19:05, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support - Pretty obvious call. Leave each other alone. I'm tempted to suggest that as an alternative the pair be required to collaborate writing an article about something completely different so that they'd learn to interact a little in a collaborative rather than a combative manner, but that's probably asking a bit much... You two might think about trying that though... Carrite (talk) 18:01, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

I am not opposed to this.--LesPhilky (talk) 19:06, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

I've got a list of public high schools from the Mississippi Delta on my user page that don't have a single word written about them. Picking one at random, just in case you need a starter idea, here's a red link for O'Bannon High School from Washington County, Mississippi, located in the county seat of Greenville, Mississippi. I'm sure there's a football aspect to that somewhere... You might want to simultaneously work on the other high school in that town, which would be Greenville-Weston High School, also a red link... Carrite (talk) 22:16, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

It could work! Those high schools live and die for football. Add in the private former seg academies and the arguments and lawsuits over which teams will play one another because of who does or doesn't allow black kids on their teams and which schools get to use the public football fields and there's an endless amount of editing to be done. No one editing regularly in the area has done enough with football, and it's clearly important.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 22:28, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

• Hehe I like that. Drmies (talk) 18:03, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

• If I could make a request: I understand the admins' position and thoughts on imposing a 6-month ban on GarnetAndBlack and me for the Carolina-Clemson rivalry page, and I accept it. I would like to say that GarnetAndBlack is passionate about Gamecock sports and does a good job of maintaining the everyday edits that the pages relating to his team require. I am passionate about Clemson athletics and would like to also ensure that those pages (such as Clemson Tigers football, Memorial Stadium, Clemson, Dabo Swinney, etc.) stay up to date. Could it be possible that, along with your proposed ban from the rivalry page, we are relegated to our respected teams' pages for the same duration along with an interaction ban so as to avoid any possibility of us butting heads again? Thank you for your consideration.--LesPhilky (talk) 22:14, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

• LesPhilky, you're getting more reasonable by the moment. The proposed topic ban would allow that, as long as you both keep in mind the spirit of the topic ban, which lies in the "related to" part. Honestly, the best thing that could happen (outside of baconcheeseburgers and beer) is that you butt heads and talk it out, but that would fall within both parts of the ban, of course, the topic part and the interaction part. An example is to be found in who chipped that piece of rock: if you two could ever agree on what it is that the sources say and how that is to be worded in an article, then we've won the war. For now (that is, until we hear from Garnet) I think that the proposed ban is a good idea, but if Garnet responds here, and you do too, and both of you agree to a. not bicker b. not edit-war (or even revert--a "don't revert each others' edits" rule is a possibility as well) and c. use the talk page to discuss topics and edits, then we've settled matters. So Garnet--what do you say? And Les, what do you say to what he says (when he says something)? Drmies (talk) 00:00, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

• Really, any of the above suits me just fine. What I find almost comically absurd about this entire affair is that someone who just a little over a year ago attempted to belittle and insult me[8] by remarking, "This isn't my life like it clearly is yours...Honestly, I would shoot myself in the face if I found myself spending two hours on Wikipedia over the weekend", has spent so many hours of his own life since Wikilawyering, forum-shopping and posting mind-numbingly long-winded reports on various noticeboards complaining about the editing of one "angry little man". I will say that any topic ban that forbids me from contributing to articles dealing with the University of South Carolina or its athletic programs will basically result in my quitting this project altogether (especially with college baseball season starting next month), and I guess Les wins in that scenario, since that seems to have been his goal from Day One. The project will be the worse for losing a dedicated editor, but my life will not be, I can assure you of that. GarnetAndBlack (talk) 08:35, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

• "And Les, what do you say to what he says (when he says something)." Well, to answer your question, Drmies, his response isn't exactly encouraging. I'm not trying to win anything, and frankly anyone who takes a "victory" out of this situation clearly has some issues. As my original complaint stated, I admit my actions a year ago as a new user were less than adequate. But my original complaint was over recent activity. Again, I'm not sure I have faith in cooperative collaboration at this point as GarnetAndBlack's response still seems filled with animosity towards me, and a "if I don't get my way I'll just quit!" type of response. I don't want to quit maintaining Clemson sites, but can see how a fresh 6 months away from the idea would probably be good for the mind and soul.--LesPhilky (talk) 12:47, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm fine with his rock edit. Honestly, another user had written the text before and I just added a source (I think I may have also copied and pasted from one article to another... can't remember). That wasn't one of the ones where we disagreed. Bacon cheeseburgers and beer sound great, only as long as I get to cook, because my burgers could likely solve most world crises today. But seriously, my main concern is that we agree to do this and things deteriorate back to square one as soon as admins aren't watching. I'm concerned GarnetAndBlack sees absolutely no fault in his actions and will continue the hostility whenever I try to make good faith edits. I dunno, maybe banning both of us for a duration is the best way to calm it down. That's why they pay y'all the big bucks to make these decisions, right?--LesPhilky (talk) 05:15, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for another addendum: I also like the "don't revert each others' edits" rule until we discuss. In fact, another Gamecock fan, SCrooster, and I have an agreement that we will not revert or change each other's edits, or, if necessary, even make any additions, until we can talk things over. Thus far, this has worked well.--LesPhilky (talk) 05:20, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

• I'm willing to consider alternate proposals both parties agree to. One that is not an option, however, is allowing party A to only edit about team A, and party B to only edit about team B. This has too many COI issues to be a reasonable solution. Prodego ^talk 00:17, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough. Thanks anyway.--LesPhilky (talk) 00:57, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Proposed new wording

1. User:LesPhilky and User:GarnetAndBlack are hereby subject to a formal interaction ban, and all restrictions noted in that policy for a period of 6 months;
2. Both are topic-banned from the article or talkpage of Carolina-Clemson rivalry for a period of 6 months;
3. Both are prohibited from editing any articles related to the sports teams of Carolina or Clemson universities (broadly construed) for a period of 6 months, although changes may be proposed on the associated talkpage in order to obtain consensus;
4. Both are subject to civility restrictions during all discussions, including being prohibited from making derogatory comments directly or indirectly about universities, their sports teams, and the athletes involved indefinitely

Violations of any of these restrictions will be met with a block for 1 week for a first violation, with escalation for additional violations of any of the restrictions.

• Support as proposer (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:27, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose as overly broad I can support points #1, 2 and 4, but I don't believe either Les or myself has ever had a dispute arise due to updating Carolina or Clemson articles with game results, current events and the like. Prohibiting us from maintaining these articles with this type of uncontroversial material (can't argue about the score of a game, ranking in a poll, etc.) seems highly punitive, so I do not support point #3. GarnetAndBlack (talk) 17:29, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Ditto.--LesPhilky (talk) 20:57, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment I am in full agreement with points 1, 2, and 4, but have to agree with GarnetAndBlack above that barring them from any edits on the topics that each of them most frequently edit seems especially harsh. Both of these editors have proven able to provide value to their topics, and GarnetAndBlack in particular has done great work creating and updating the last few South Carolina baseball season pages as they progress. The issue seems to be when they a) interact and b) add things that might be controversial or viewed in a different light from the other side of the rivalry. I'd propose that they both be permitted to make routine edits to articles - adding game results and other sorts of events of an ongoing and routine nature, so that they will both continue to be engaged with Wikipedia. If either or both were to stretch the limits of this either in their edits or in edit summaries, I'd be in favor of reopening this to give the offending editor a full topic ban. I just think the block as constructed above will simply result in both of them never coming back, which would be a net loss to Wikipedia. Billcasey905 (talk) 18:26, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
• Provisional Support - 1, 2, and 4 are clear preventative measures. And while 3 is very broad, it is also preventative. GarnetAndBlack and LesPhilky this may be hard to take, but how you have been handling yourselves makes some version of #3 needed. The last thing that is needed is for this to come back here in a few weeks time because the disruption has moved to the articles on the schools, athletes, teams, etc. Normally a topic ban would cover everything related to the topic. The latitude BWilkins took with #1 limits that but leave everything else open.
  That all said, I'd rather see #3 softened a little to give both a chance to show they can work in the area. A proscription from editing the games and sections of articles that reference/deal with the rivalry makes sense. But starting off with them having to come hat in hand to make good faith, constructive edits to the remainder doesn't. With that, the interaction ban should prevent most of the problems and possibly a 1RR limit to encourage discusion on thing other editors take exception to.
  - J Greb (talk) 23:26, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
• Comment - It's nice to see the parties agreeing on 1, 2, and 4. That strikes me as a reasonable remedy. Carrite (talk) 03:16, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
• Comment - Given the apparent support for (and parties agreement to) 1, 2, and 4. I suggest turning 3 into an expanded WP:0RR for the described articles. Revised #3 would read: "Both are prohibited from performing reverts on any articles related to the sports teams of Carolina or Clemson universities (broadly construed) for a period of 6 months. Undoing other editors, whether in whole or in part, counts as a revert." --Tgeairn (talk) 07:03, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support proposed remedies #1, #2, and #4, very strong oppose proposed remedy #3, following the reasoning of Billcasey905, J Greb and Carrite. Both parties to the dispute have apparently already either explicitly or implicitly agreed to that solution.--Shirt58 (talk) 09:08, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support 1, 2, and 4 for reasons given by other editors. I wish this could have been forestalled, but it seems Garnet is not interested in the hand extended by LesPhilky, and unfortunately an agreement is a two-way street. Drmies (talk) 15:55, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Pardon me, but what the hell does this mean? I've seen no sign of a proposal by an admin that suggested a way this could be handled without measures like those listed above, and Les hasn't exactly shown signs of assuming good faith in his responses here, so I certainly haven't seen a "hand extended" my way. If you have an idea (other than cheeseburgers and beers), where is it? Topic and interaction bans have been the only things mentioned from the outset of this tedious exercise. If you have an alternative, by all means, share it with the class. I'd be open to hearing it, and I'm sure Les would as well. GarnetAndBlack (talk) 16:36, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

You are gladly pardoned. There is a suggestion above, in the paragraph starting "LesPhilky, you're getting more reasonable by the moment." Drmies (talk) 17:27, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Which I replied to with, "Really, any of the above suits me just fine." GarnetAndBlack (talk) 08:33, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

And then followed with a long litany repeating the same grievances. What I (and I assume others) was looking for was some kind of statement that said "let bygones be bygones" and "I'll try to get along with Les". Since you said the total opposite, rehashing old bygones and lashing out at Les again, there is little point in discussion an alternative to the various proposed bans. Drmies (talk) 15:52, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Then why even mention it in your comment here? Doesn't make much sense. GarnetAndBlack (talk) 21:06, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Comment Although 3 is broad, it is a preventative measure for obvious reasons if you think about it. I'm a little confused by the wording though. If either propose changes to the talk page of an article bounded by 3, does that preclude the other from discussing these changes because of 1? Blackmane (talk) 18:27, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Reporting user Subman758 for Personal Attack

I am reporting that User:Subman758 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs), on my own talk page this evening, made a Nazi-reference to myself regarding my reading of another user's talk page about a previous edit I had made. As my talk history on Subman758's talk page, regarding this, shows that I was polite and civil. The Nazi-reference in particular was him citing myself as a "Gestapo wannabe." Usage of that terminology appears to follow under the guides of a personal attack— as described on the Wikipedia:No personal attacks page, (Under "What is considered to be a personal attack?," fourth bullet item "Comparing editors to Nazis, dictators, or other infamous persons"). With the exception of the required ANI-notice, I have since ceased any further contact, response or communications with this user. Anaheimer (talk) 05:13, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

It seems Anaheimer left a cordial warning about general civility on Subman758's talk page after a message the latter posted on Vercillo's talk page vaguely referring to "idiots" editing Brea Police Department; Subman758 apparently reacted strongly to what he perceived as an intrusion in a private conversation. Perhaps, first of all, it should be explained to the user that all pages (including User Talk pages) are public and viewable by anyone... Salvidrim! ✉ 05:41, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes the term VAGUELY is correct! No specific person was called an Idiot! However Anaheimer feels he should be responding to a message that was not sent to him, intended for him, or related to him. He tries to say I called him an idiot, in that I referred to Idiots because "HE" made an Edit! Which is not the case. I don't know him, I have never dealt with prior to this so why would I want to call "him" an idiot! When I go to someone's talk page, I don't go there to read their mail. I leave a message, and leave. Anaheimer feels it is HIS DUTY to read someones mail and respond to it, whether the recipient wants him to or not. It is not up to him to correct someone for a message sent to someone else. If the person receiving the message is offended then he should tell me. Anaheimer seems to like to nitpick on people, I guess that is how he blows off steam, me on the other hand I am a Cynical Bastard. At least I can admit it though. If talk pages are Public, (which I did not know!) then I might suggest there be a way to contact a user in private. I feel there needs to some measure privacy here to prevent users like Anaheimer, who trolls users pages looking for a way to cause a problem. I would there is some way for Wikipedia to do this. It is not like they don't have the money, because I know they do, after all they have 10,000 of my hard earned dollars over the last four years.--Subman758 (talk) 06:08, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Subman, if you want to contact another editor privately, you can use the "Email this user" function. Not all users have this enabled, and not all editors are receptive to being contacted by email in all cases. On-wiki discussions, however, are open to any editor's participation. I often find that conversations on my talk page benefit from the participation of other editors who can offer insight or information that I may have overlooked. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 06:13, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) You can e-mail any user that has a confirmed e-mail address. However this is a collaborative environment, thus private communications generally aren't common. Please make sure you understand that Anaheimer's concerns are valid and it helps create a better atmosphere to follow basic civility guidelines. There is also no justification whatsoever for referring to another editor as a "Gestapo wannabe"; I believe we can all agree that whatever happened before, that particular edit falls well into the realm of personal attacks. Salvidrim! ✉ 06:17, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Anaheimer also wrote "typing in all caps and excessive use of the exclamation marks is not very friendly, and in fact, offensive" Prehaps Anaheimer finds it offensive. However; there was no intent to be offensive. If I use CAPS, IT IS BECAUSE, I AM TRYING TO MAKE SURE IT CAN BE SEEN!!! Those History pages can often be filled with a lot of stuff, cause important information to be easily missed. In this case I wanted the editor to go back and read his source. Wikipedia could be, and should a source of information. Have you ever tried telling someone this line "But that is what it says on Wikipedia" Room erupts in laughter right? Wikipedia is mocked because to many inappropriate edits are being made. In this case an edit was made, and the user assumed that it was more than it truly was. Vercillo wrote an AWESOME article, that because of these inappropriate edits is now a shadow of its former self. I find that sad.--Subman758 (talk) 06:28, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Hello, and I hope you all are well. I wanted to start out by saying that I had every right to file this discussion, and I have kept things civil and polite. For what I was called on my own talk page, by Subman758, it was clearly an offending remark as stipulated in the personal attacks guidelines. That's really my only issue as being labeled with a Nazi connotation was very disheartening. Now, within regards to the Brea Police Department page— I have no concerns within regards to the present state the page is in or any subsequent edits that may be made by anyone else. Sometimes we may make little mistakes when updating content, and I today I did catch my own oversight on the Brea Police page where I was only thinking about the Yorba Linda factor, and not the continuance of Brea itself. It was a simple oversight. But to get back to this issue... I had gone through my own contrib history earlier today, and for kicks I clicked the Brea Police page, saw it had changed (which did not bother me at all), but when I saw the edit comments, and the other verbiage seen on Vercillo's talk page, that's when I had reached out to Subman758 and left the comments that I did— just like how Salvidrim stated above that I had "...left a cordial warning about general civility." As we have seen now, and with his responses above, it really had upset this user, and that was not anyone's intent, let alone mine. I do in no way, shape or form "nitpick" on anyone or anything here on Wikipedia, nor am I one who "...trolls users pages looking for a way to cause a problem." I am not new to Wikipedia; I have been a reader since the site was launched, and am coming up six years this month as having been a registered editor. I am not full time on my contributions, and the like, on Wikipedia, but occasionally I will dedicate time to go through various pages of interest and go from there. One of the things I like to do, which is what I did this afternoon, was view pages in my contrib history. Its interesting to see what subsequent changes and, most often, improvements that have been made. In closing, within regards to the Brea Police page, if it is strongly felt that Vercillo's original content is better preferred— a revert would be easiest solution to be made in no time flat, if desired. I'm not one who takes control of pages. This is Wikipedia— a great community of folks. We can agree to disagree. This is a positive place on the internet. And thanks again. — ANAHEIMER (TALK) 09:27, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Anaheimer; You went to another users page. You read a message I left for them. You ASSUMED I was calling YOU an Idiot. So you came to page to say something about it, and while your tone was generally polite it still grates at me, because your responding to a message neither to you, or about you, and your making seem like I'm attacking you. If I wanted to call YOU an Idiot, I would have come to your page and done so there! I have seen a lot of great articles destroyed by inappropriate edits, including one very near and dear to me, one that I basically wrote start to finish. I have seen a lot editors become admins, and then let that power go to there heads. The word Gestapo is still used today, to convey similarities in tactics. They had a habit of intercepting messages. I DID NOT CALL YOU A NAZI, OR INSINUATE THAT YOU WERE ONE! Trust me if I wanted to call you a NAZI I would gone to your page, and called you one! Make no mistake polite or not. It was wrong of you to ASSUME I was calling you an idiot. And it was wrong of you to respond to a message that was neither to you, or about you in any way. The message DID NOT include this (That guy Anaheimer is a real Idiot.) If it had, I could see your point. If you felt I was attacking you by referring your actions to that of Gestapo Wannabe, I sincerely do apologize. However I feel your putting words into my mouth, in that you made it seem I was calling you Idiot is also a Personal Attack. A Personal Attack to my integrity. As I said I am a Cynical Bastard, you try driving OCTA buses around Orange County all day, and avoid becoming one.--Subman758 (talk) 16:55, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see where Anaheimer claimed you called him an idiot. He noticed you were calling some people idiots and advised against it... that's all. And it is probably sound advice. Salvidrim! ✉ 20:40, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

As a note: if you want emphasis, please use italics; the formatting is ''like this''. All caps is considered "shouting" on the Internet, including here, not emphasis. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:35, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Bushranger & Salvidrim! for your recent replies. Everything I have said is already written here, and I do appreciate the understanding and objectivity as displayed by the both of you in your replies. I don't think I have anything further to add as my actions and steps in this matter have already been reviewed and verified (contrib history, etc) by others who have commented in this thread. Thank you all, and it is much appreciated! — ANAHEIMER (TALK) 01:42, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

I've had a read through of the talk pages and would like to throw in some small denominations of currency. To Subman758, it looks like you've misread Anaheimer's intentions. As others have noted, Anaheimer posted a polite reminder about maintaining civility. In no way was their post to your talk page implying that you were speaking about them. In fact, after re-reading it multiple times I still can't see how you could read it that way but that's by the by. As a secondary note, using bold letters '''like this''' is also considered an acceptable way of adding emphasis and depending on a person's screen may be more noticeable than italics. Serious emphasis can be done with bold italics '''''like so'''''. That's 5 apostrophes in case all those marks are confusing.Blackmane (talk) 18:13, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Topic ban violator needs a block

At User talk:Seraphimblade#Violation, and further clarification needed, the closer of the topic ban against User:Apteva agrees that the ban has been violated. Can someone please give him a temporary block to remind him that we're serious? Dicklyon (talk) 05:46, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

"Him or her", please, see below. Apteva (talk) 07:52, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Whatever his gender identification, he has made it clear at least that he has balls, so I'll stick with the masculine, as the feminist has also been objected to. Or sometimes I'll use the neuter. I prefer to choose from among normal English ways of referring to editors or their (neuter) accounts. Dicklyon (talk) 16:07, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Should I start taking bets on how many minutes will expire after said block is enacted before he's unblocked? I think I'll open with an over/under of 20 minutes. --Jayron32 06:05, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

"He or she", they, xe, or even "it", is preferred, please. Anything gender neutral is fine, though I have never seen "it" used before. Apteva (talk) 07:52, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

It stops violating topic ban or it gets the block.  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  15:23, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

• I didn't see it nearly clear-cut enough to block. Considering the heat that's still on, I say 10 minutes. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:11, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

• I'd tend to see it as a violation, since that discussion on applicability of MOS to titles was essentially precipitated by the War of the Dashes. However, Apteva didn't specifically mention them, so I'd tend to see it as more a warning than blocking issue this time around. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 06:16, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Warning heard and heeded. I had no intention of violating the topic ban in any way. A block would serve no purpose whatsoever. The connection between the MOS and wp:title mostly affects other issues, and it was those only that I was addressing. But I had no intention of stirring anything up. Apteva (talk) 06:32, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
    • Bullshit. Beyond My Ken (talk) 10:54, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

If you want people to look into this issue, a link to the wording of the topic ban and a diff of the proposed violation would be a whole lot more convenient than making us hunt around for it. ‑Scottywong| communicate _ 15:02, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

In any case, I've hunted around and found both, and I don't see a violation. The wording of the topic ban is specific, and prevents Apteva from modifying or discussing issues relating to punctuation. The discussion in question is about whether WP:TITLE should have a link to WP:MOS in some way, and is not specifically about punctuation. Apteva's comments are also not specifically about punctuation. If you want this type of comment to be included in the topic ban, my opinion is that you need to reword the topic ban. ‑Scottywong| confess _ 15:13, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I had asked Seraphimblade to do such a rewording, but he expressed the opinion that the ban was already clear enough and that this was a violation. That's why I linked to that discussion, instead of to the diff and the ban wording, which as you note did not quite connect. So now that this is taken as a "warning", will we have any better luck enforcing the ban next time he violates it? Dicklyon (talk) 16:07, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

• As this was already being discussed at WP:AN#Post-close notice (Topic ban, what topic ban?), and in fact Dicklyon participated in the discussion there prior to starting this one; starting a second discussion here is inappropriate forum shopping. Monty₈₄₅ 15:32, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

It had been made clear to me elsewhere that AN/I is where one asks for a block to stop an incidenet. The post-close note at AN was to keep a record of how well the badly-worded ban in working out. I didn't expect a big conversation to develop there, but maybe should have. Are you saying I should not have done both of these things at these two places? Dicklyon (talk) 16:07, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

AN/I is a subset of AN, so anything that can be done at AN/I can also be done in the discussion at AN. When there is already a discussion started in one place, and editors have registered opposition to a request, taking the request elsewhere, particularly without highlighting the previous opposition, is very problematic. This discussion actually started in a new subsection at AN, specifically about the alleged violation, then someone merged it into that section much higher on the page. Generally a mess, still I think we should move this back to AN to keep it in the one place. Monty₈₄₅ 16:20, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

One technical point I'm wondering about: The user in question is a wiki-legal alternate account. If an alternate account gets blocked, does the main account get blocked also? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:21, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

I would say yes. Apteva, any reason why you are operating under your alternative account rather than your main? GiantSnowman 16:27, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

That's explained, so to speak, at User:Delphi234. Given the verbiage on that page, it's to be hoped that the user's desire for admin status will remain only a pipe dream. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:42, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

No need to block one of two usernames, since they're being used legitimately; block both if you need to block one. Nyttend (talk) 16:55, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Bugs - yes, I've read that, I just don't understand what it means to have an alternative account "to become an admin." GiantSnowman 17:01, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Beats me. But it doesn't sound good. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:58, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Good faith there would assume that that's a misunderstanding of the fact that most admins have alternate accounts, for things like logging in on public computers to avoid potential compromising of the password of the account that has the mop. Whether or not good faith can be assumed is, of course, for others to assume, or not. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:33, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

That line of reasoning for having an alternate account makes sense, although I'd like to see a citation for "most admins..." In the case of the user in question, that premise does not apply. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:46, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Just for reference, here are the links. The opinion of the admin who wrote the ban:

I would say that this edit is clearly related to Apteva's activity in the area of dashes/hyphens, and that this is both a violation of the ban and that no extension of the ban is necessary for it to be covered as such. I would see this as a clear attempt at gaming the ban by not technically mentioning the previous dispute subject. However, I would encourage opening a discussion at WP:ANI for wider input.[9]

The language of the ban is:

Apteva is topic banned indefinitely from modifying or discussing the use of dashes, hyphens, or similar types of punctuation, broadly construed, including but not limited to at the manual of style and any requested move discussion. [10]

The closing statement for the RFC/U states:

Apteva's persistent pushing of the theory that en dashes are never appropriate in proper names, such as the names of wars, comets, bridges, and airports, has been disruptive. Respecting the wishes of the community as represented by an overwhelming majority of responders at this RFC/U, Apteva will refrain from any further advocating of this position, or any position against en dashes or against the MOS being applicable to article titles, and will not make any page moves or RMs based on such theories. Violation of this topic ban will be grounds for a block and/or a request for arbitration.

Twenty-eight editors signed this statement. Pushing this theory over and over is exactly what Apteva has been doing, again, this time at WT:TITLE. [11] and especially [12] —Neotarf (talk) 01:51, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

• Well 28 editors need to follow policies instead: I understand how a statement signed by 28 people should be considered a clear decision, but Wikipedia has not worked that way for years. An RfC/U document cannot claim to impose a topic-ban, because wp:AN is the proper venue to request a topic-ban, and the decision is made by an admin, not counting votes until 28 agree as a wp:Majority. Per wp:CONSENSUS, a local consensus (even 28) cannot override the broader consensus set for years in policies among the community of 110,000 active editors each month. Similarly, even 500 editors cannot decide that the WMF must give them each a new automobile, but instead, decisions are made within policy limits. In this case, the ban-closing admin limited the topic-ban terms to dash/hyphen and related punctuation but did not prohibit discussion about policy wp:TITLE nor use of capital letters in titles, nor using short name "Clinton" in article titled "Bill Clinton". Perhaps 28 editors actually wanted an even broader topic-ban restriction when opposed by 4 editors, but they did not provide clear evidence to convince the closing admin to render that decision, and so the limited topic-ban was the ruling. Other editors should respect that process for topic-bans, but continuing to argue for more topic-bans, after weeks of discussion were decided by a closing admin, clearly seems disruptive of Wikipedia's process by dragging debates into a 3rd full month, with a few specific editors prolonging the debates after closed by an admin decision. Perhaps wait 3 months, gather more evidence, and then re-open discussion at another wp:AN thread, but meanwhile, wp:STICK to the rules for 3 months. -Wikid77 (talk) 05:25, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Reoccurring Vandalism

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Redsky85 has twice revised and removed an important fact about Frank Pastore, that he was a famed radio personality. This fact is verified and reflects Franks life after baseball. I have warned Redsky85 the first time he edited my contribution.

This is my contribution on December 17, 2012: * 2012 – Frank Pastore, American baseball player and radio personality (b. 1957)

This is Redsky85 edit both times: * 2012 – Frank Pastore, American baseball player (b. 1957)

Please intervene and resolve this malicious vandalism.

Thank you,

User98432 (talk) 19:31, 11 January 2013 (UTC)user98432 (Robert Ashbaugh) — Preceding unsigned comment added by User98432 (talk • contribs) 19:26, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

This is not clearly malicious. I suggest discussing the matter either at user talk pages or Talk:December 17. This is not the venue for discussing this issue. —C.Fred (talk) 19:34, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WP:AN unblock and topic ban discussion not being discussed

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I'm not entirely sure if this is appropriate, someone can remove it if it isn't, but Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Modification of Alan Liefting's topic ban and it's various subsections aren't being discussed at a high enough level to develop a consensus. I thought I'd leave a section here to give it a little more visibility. Ryan Vesey 00:30, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

• Bold added for more visibility. Close? Drmies (talk) 00:47, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

• WP:AN is at a high-enough level; it's where we normally discuss this kind of thing. Nyttend (talk) 01:30, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

• Well, let's not draw any more attention to it then, for instance by adding comments to the thread and thereby making it stay on the board longer. Oops, I'm sorry. FWIW, I was the one to unblock Alan so he could participate, so I certainly won't be closing anything there: I unblocked him precisely because I don't know him or the dispute. Drmies (talk) 06:23, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hafaz Refrisa Maulana

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I am concerned that User: Hafaz Refrisa Maulana is not here to improve Wikipedia, but is rather attempting to use his userspace as a free website in contravention to WP:WEBHOST. The user has made nearly 300 edits so far, but of those, only 3 have been to articles, while all of the rest have been to her/his userspace. These edits involve a large number of different sub-pages, all revolving around Captain Tsubasa, a long running Japanese comic book. These user pages are not article drafts; they're all WP:FANCRUFT—and attempt to document every little detail about the series. While this may be appropriate for some sort of dedicated Wikia site, it's not information that would ever be important enough to include in Wikipedia articles. I've asked the user several times to explain what she/he is doing, but I've not gotten any response other than one WP:BLANKING to my first request (see the user's current talk page and its history).

I'm inclined to block the user as WP:NOTHERE and trying to use us as a webhost, but this is certainly a subjective judgment, and I'd rather others give their opinion as well. Similarly, it's probably appropriate to take all of the subpages to MfD, though, again, opinions are welcome. Also, is there anyone more technically capable who knows how to get a list of all subpages the user has? Qwyrxian (talk) 13:19, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Special:PrefixIndex, and search on "Hafaz Refrisa Maulana/" in User namespace. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:36, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Why not just post a direct link for us lazy folk? NE Ent 15:11, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, because that would not provide the same educational service ;-) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:20, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Uh. Wow. There are 30 pages in his user space. All of the one's I've looked have no encyclopedic value. Qwyrxian (talk) 13:41, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. It's just a kid using it as personal web space for stuff about their favourite comic book. I see nothing remotely of value in any of it, and would support a block and a deletion of all those pages. I think one MfD for the lot would do - but I'd be tempted to block first and then wait a short while to allow chance for a response. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:48, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Mfd = bureuacracy. (WP is not). The issue is the pages, not the account, so nuke the pages except the user talk page but don't block the account. NE Ent 15:11, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure there's a valid speedy category, but I guess G6 housekeeping might stretch to it? (I'm all for avoiding bureaucracy if we can). -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:19, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Send it to MfD, (as one large bundled nomination) its unreasonably harsh to just delete the pages without giving the editor a chance to defend them, or transfer the content off wiki, both of which a week at MfD would allow. Monty₈₄₅ 15:26, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree with NE Ent - delete the pages, and if he re-starts then we block. GiantSnowman 15:53, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Just a note that there is already a Captain Tsubasa wiki: [13].--Auric talk 15:57, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

• I'm with Monty, just package an MfD discussion, there isn't a reason they have to be speedy deleted. I don't see a reason to block at this point either. Lots of people don't understand what Wikipedia really is. I was just talking to a small record producer via email the other day and explained it instead of speedy deleting and blocking. Same thing, we should try to educate first and assume good faith, then only block if there is real disruption. Nothing has been broken or disrupted by his actions as of now. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:38, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Before you all bring the hammer down on this editor, it's worth noting he's only 14. This may be a crime of misunderstanding. Perhaps one of you with good adolescent communication skills might want to try explaining the rules around here and allow him a chance to comply first? This is all sounding a touch heavy-handed given he's so young. You could salvage a good editor, after all; 30 pages takes a lot of devotion and energy that could be productively channeled. --Drmargi (talk) 19:08, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Which is why I'm not advocating a block; however Q already reached out politely and didn't get an answer, so it's time to take action. NE Ent 19:17, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

It's also why I actually suggested a short block first, to try to get his attention as he's not responding to attempts to communicate with him. But an MfD notification should hopefully have the same effect, though I fear his English isn't very good and he may well just not understand. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:59, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

I've done the "obnoxious stop sign thing" on his talk page. If that doesn't get his attention, nothing will. (I have pretty good luck with that, actually, try it some time.) Hopefully, he will start a conversation and someone can help him. I would rather at least try this method first. If he ignores and keeps editing, well, then we know we really tried. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:54, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Wow, that's big! -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 23:40, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Go big or go home ;-) Seriously, more times than not, this really does get them to talk since it obviously isn't an automated message. Obnoxious but polite and firm. I've noticed that people don't mind the second block as bad as the first, so preventing the first block is actually helpful for us as admin, as they have a "clean block log" to protect. We humans are funny that way. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:58, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, it's a species I've never understood ;-) But seriously, I'll have to try using that - thanks for the tip. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 02:45, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Sadly, it didn't work--they're still editing the subpages, since the STOP SIGN. So, what's the consensus--MfD first? Qwyrxian (talk) 06:37, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, any MfD notification is almost certain to be ignored too - I really do suspect he doesn't understand the words on his talk page (and maybe not even what the orange banner says). So I'd say the only way left to try to communicate with him is to block. He should get the chance to save all his stuff (possibly for use in that other wiki) before it's deleted, and he's not going to do that if he just sees it all suddenly disappear in 7 days time. And a block now would save him wasting another 7 days updating his pages too, while they're being discussed. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 06:47, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

This is how one gets the attention of such a person, without MFD, without deletion, without blocking, indeed without exercising any administrator tools whatsoever. There's no resulting entry in the block log, and the action can be reverted easily enough by anyone if it turns out that this is a worthwhile use of userspace. Uncle G (talk) 12:02, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Ah, you blanked his user pages - worth a try. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:24, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Watch out: right now he's undoing Uncle G's blankings. - a boat that can float! (watch me float) 13:19, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

At this point, I just don't see another solution than to block. I've made the first (hopefully, only) block for 48 hours; I've also indicated that those pages are likely to be deleted sooner or later, so copying them off WP is a good idea. Additionally, I want to add that I don't this editor isn't "seeing" his/hr talkpage, because in the process of reverting the subpage blankings, she/he also blanked most, but not all, of her/his talk page, specifically retaining the message from Rich Farmbrough talking about he Captain Tsubasa Wikia site. I'd appreciate if other admins could keep watching his page as well, because I'll be just about to start a wikibreak when the current block wears off. Qwyrxian (talk) 13:44, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

And he's blanked the block notice (having previously blanked the earlier warnings). I've restored it just this once and asked him again to talk to us. But if he carries on like this, I don't see it ending well. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:51, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

(Pretty sure it's "he", btw - Hafaz appears to be a male name. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:53, 12 January 2013 (UTC) )

It was indeed worth a try. My experience of what usually happens when one blanks things is that very quickly a plaintive "Why are you blanking all of my hard work?" appears somewhere, whether that be on the talk page pointed to or the user talk page of the blanker. Either would have been the desired result in this case. Uncle G (talk) 14:11, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Due to the repeated blanking, I've revoked talk page access. Does anyone feel like putting the 30 page MfD together? I can possibly get to it tomorrow. Qwyrxian (talk) 14:19, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

An MfD for one page should do, and add "This MfD also covers all the other subpages at [link]". I'm a bit busy now, but I can do it later. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:21, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

 Done mfd %%^*$*&(@#! bureaucracy, should just nuke the whole kit and kaboodle and be done with it; there's good faith and there's pointless wasting of time...NE Ent 14:36, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:52, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

I have listed the pages, and unblanked (I think) all the remaining blank ones. The reason we MfD instead of nuking is that it gives the editor time to explain why we shouldn't delete the pages, and to mitigate the damage which we are (undeniably) causing by the deletions (albeit not damage to the encyclopaedia). Also when this editor is tired of this particular franchise, and a little older, they will likley be able to contribute on their new interest, which might be another video game, but might also be monoclonal antibodies. Rich Farmbrough, 19:00, 12 January 2013 (UTC).

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Vandalism/Personal Attack/Legal Threat

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User:Smokeablunt420 has been vandalizing along with making a personal attack/legal threat here. Could an admin RevDel that edit and block this user? All four of this user's edits are vandalism. That particular one deserves a RevDel as well. Vacation9 03:14, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Already blocked by User:Elockid indef for vandalism, RevDel may be good here (that was hard to read..) gwickwire^talk_edits 03:25, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

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WP:DUCK Sock?

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I'm having a hard time understanding this. I think the editor may be referring to this edit and me reverting it, but I can't fully understand it. Sands32981 made some (possibly bad faith) edits, then a non-sysop placed a blocked template on their talk page. I think the user might have thought they were blocked (they weren't) and then made another account (Carson) which they then contacted me with. This might be a case of DUCK with Carson30 and Sands32981. Maybe an admin could make better since of this? Vacation9 03:58, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

The ubiquitous Bbb23 seems to have dealt with this, but it looks like your analysis is correct. Rich Farmbrough, 05:02, 12 January 2013 (UTC).

What do you mean by dealt with it? Neither of them are blocked or anything. I think you mean Bbb has dealt with the false block notices. Vacation9 05:11, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Are you expecting us to block them for acting like a weenie? I'm not yet 100% convinced about a sock, and the behaviour of either account is not yet significant enough to raise the hackles to lead to a block, from first impressions. The false block notices were removed, and I think they've been told how to behave in the future (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:42, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

• I'm with Bwilkins, it isn't really quacking yet and it looks like Bbb23 has it under control, talking to the "blocking" editor. For what it is worth, in most circumstances, it is difficult to call a "duck" with less than 6 contribs to establish behavior. They might just know each other, or the second account might just be an IP that finally registered, or something else entirely. There are too many possibilities to draw a conclusion yet. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:51, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

The best way to deal with something like this is simply post a polite query on the talk page of the suspected second account whether they're related to the first one. The distinction between alternate accounts and sockpuppetry is intent ; as newbie editor(s) Carson / Sands is/are likely just not to know the rules. NE Ent 14:45, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Carson30 is a other IP Address who registered. 108.251.129.54 (talk) 15:15, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by that 108.251.129.54. However, I believe they are the same person because Carson was created after Sands was "blocked" then Carson blanked Sands' talk page. I do see your points however about intent, as the newbie editors probably don't know the policy. Vacation9 16:26, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

• I didn't know I was "ubiquitous"; I struggle to keep up with even a small percentage of the stuff that goes on around here. In any event, doesn't this all relate to this topic at WP:AN.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:25, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes it is related to that topic. Carson30 (talk) 18:48, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

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User:R-41 AND User:DIREKTOR's content dispute

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User:DIREKTOR has repeatedly become uncivil in discussions involving a template layout of the Nazism sidebar and Fascism sidebar, and repeatedy assumes bad faith on my part in spite of me attempting to cooperate with him. DIREKTOR has become uncivil because I and another user User:Frietjes have disagreed with his template proposal. I am requesting some form of acknowledgement and a warning by administrator(s) for DIREKTOR to immediately cease this behaviour, and that ignoring the warning will have consequences of either potential blocking for periods of time or a similar penalty.

DIREKTOR became frustrated that a proposal that he opened up for a vote some time ago at the Nazism sidebar's talk page was not receiving much attention after a few comments by me on it in which I disagreed to his proposal. He then massively altered the template to the design he supported, he said in his first statement on that section in months, the following highly uncivil statement in violation of Wikipedia:Assume good faith: "I've had enough of your brand of stonewalling, R-41. Logos and symbols are far more appropriate in these templates than full, SVG flag representations. And to me it seems you simply want images that you yourself uploaded to be used in templates." [14]. After I rejected this accusation and stated to DIREKTOR that it was in violation of Wikipedia:Civility and Wikipedia:Assume good faith, DIREKTOR said "I do apologize, but that was my honest impression." [15].

When User:Frietjes entered the issue who also disagreed with DIREKTOR's changes. However User:Frietjes revert was considered combative and edit warring by DIREKTOR that provoked DIREKTOR to respond to Frietjes' statement that said "I disapprove" in an uncivil manner, saying: "Of course you do. Even though you didn't revert the addition earlier [16]. Please forgive me, but as we're currently engaged in a dispute, I myself cannot regard your position as impartial and objective." [17].

I repeatedly stated in the conversation that I wanted all users involved to cooperate in creating an RfC with my proposal, DIREKTOR's proposal, and open to other proposals by other users, and I followed through Wikipedia:Negotiation. DIREKTOR then accused me of the following: "As in previous cases, after the success of the edit war the talkpage is now being ignored by R-41. The WP:OWN here is pretty obvious, as is the user's preference for his own published .SVG images." [18] I responded by demonstrating that I do not intent to own the sidebar contrary to DIREKROR's claims; when support for DIREKTOR's proposal became tied (as it still is) with 2 users in agreement and 2 users opposed, I compromised by allowing DIREKTOR's proposal to be used for the time being, while saying that discussion needed to continue to reach a consensus on the template. After I did that, DIREKTOR commended by decision, saying: "R-41, I am humbled by your own willingness to get somewhere on this matter, and I feel I must once again apologize, this time for my inappropriate comment above." [19] However a short time afterwards, DIREKTOR turned back to effectively accusing me of stonewalling.

On the Nazism accordance with Wikipedia:Negotiation I attempted to make a compromise. I said that I disagreed with the Nazi eagle being used in the template because I thought that a simple picture of an angled swastika like that of the Nazis would suffice. I showed a proposal that retained DIREKTOR's template but used an angled swastika instead of the Nazi eagle.

DIREKTOR's most recent edit to the talk page is here: [20] If you look at the discussion on that edit, DIREKTOR is accusing me of stonewalling again by saying the following: "I trust you will let the matter stay frozen, rather than taking the opportunity to push something or other." In that edit, DIREKTOR said in a very aggressive and uncivilmanner: "I will say again that I am categorically opposed to a bare swastika, and that I do not accept it as any sort of a supposed "compromise"." Again, I offered suggestions that included almost all of DIREKTOR's template layout, but he is accusing this of being delay tactics and aggressively rejecting the compromise I offered.

I cannot continue this unhealthy discussion on the Nazism sidebar's talkpage that is filled with assumptions of bad faith, aggression, and incivility towards me by DIREKTOR. I am leaving that discussion. However in spite of it being an aesthetic issue, considering the amount of of hostility there and lack of consensus in favour of DIREKTOR's proposal, I believe that some sort of arbitration or mediation by an administrator is needed.--R-41 (talk) 18:38, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

More of the same from User:R-41 - we just had days and days and reams and reams of walls of his text attempting to get another user who holds opposing views to him edit restricted and here he is starting another exact same thread - Youreallycan 18:54, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

You haven't even had time to look over what I have added in a matter of a few minutes, and you are already casting assumptions. I repeatedly sought to compromise and negotiate with the user, you can look at Template talk:Nazism sidebar if you do not believe me. The administrator who closed the previous report on Darkstar1st said there were serious issues that needed to be resolved, multiple users were in favour of my proposal there. Your association of that report with this is not similar. That is biased and irresponsible.--R-41 (talk) 18:59, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Personally, I have opposed User:Director on multiple occasions, he uses the project to push his opinionated POV , but here we have one opinionated POV pusher moaning and attempting to get another opinionated POV pusher edit restricted - so, move along, close me down thread and please stop opening up such reports, they are disruptive. Youreallycan 19:03, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh so you have evidence of me being an "opinionated POV pusher" then, care to explain that extremely provocative, extremely biased and extremely uncivil statement? I think you should leave this discussion, you have zero intention to listen to my report, and you have based your conclusions here, minutes after I posted this here, entirely on a previous report without even looking at what I have addressed here.--R-41 (talk) 19:05, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

I can't participate here in depth as I am currently travelling and very busy (on vacation) - in fact, this thread was posted immediately after I today informed R-41 that I am currently going on vacation. And I also wasn't notified either, I had to see this thread on my watchlist. All I can say is those are definitely not accidents. Suffices to say this is a content dispute over R-41's images that he introduced into various ideology templates. -- Director (talk) 19:09, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

I couldn't notify you yet DIREKTOR, because I posted this minutes ago, and because this user above interjected immediately to shut this down. Quite frankly, although I disagree with your editing behaviour, I believe User:Youreallycan owes you an apology here for accusing you of being a "POV-pusher" while presenting zero evidence.--R-41 (talk) 19:13, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) I skimmed the talk page, and I see nothing requiring administrative action. Seems like a protracted content dispute with occasional heat but nothing unduly offensive, except as perceived by R-41. Indeed, R-41's constant harping on Director's alleged incivility, etc., is more disruptive than anything else.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:16, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Please look at what I did there. I offered compromises, I offered cooperation to create an RfC acceptable to all users involved. I have cooperated with DIREKTOR in the past and I thought my last proposal would have been acceptable, it is not a grudge of why I am posting this here. It is that DIREKTOR accused me from the get-go of "stonewalling", assuming bad faith, and keeps going back to that accusation and that I intend to WP:OWN the template, which is false.--R-41 (talk) 19:37, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
    • You're making way too much of this, there and here.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:42, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
      • I have brought this up here because I specifically have asked for how the issue could be delegated for someone familiar with policy like an administrator to either arbitrate or mediate, as well as requesting an administrator to warn DIREKTOR not to keep assuming bad faith of users. I am leaving that discussion because I tried to negotiate and compromise, but it didn't work, there is too much assumption of bad faith from DIREKTOR about my intentions. I could have done the wrong thing of responding by being combative, but I didn't I brought it here to ask for assistance to resolve it.--R-41 (talk) 19:54, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
        • I couldn't find anything offensive here either, 'close. Darkstar1st (talk) 20:09, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
          • Forget it, I am closing it myself. I see users who disagreed with the Darkstar1st report where anywhere from 7 to 11 users requested topic bans of some sort on Darkstar1st while 7 to 8 opposed, the opponents are milling over to this report, including Darkstar1st himself here, whom himself said because of the the report that he sought to cease interacting with me, but has decided to interject here. There are several people who have axes to grind over that report here, it is not being taken seriously, I'm shutting it down.--R-41 (talk) 20:29, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

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Just to note what I've done

I did a restoration of a French opera poster from 1910 - obviously out of copyright in the US.

However, this is the Commons page on French copyright law: commons:Commons:Copyright_rules_by_territory/France.

The author died in 1936. I ran this by the Copyright squad in commons, and they thought it should be fine there, but I wanted to throw up a {{Keep local}}-tagged copy on here, just to be safe.

Unfortunately, I did the uploads in the wrong order, so getting everything to the correct location was... interesting. (As one might expect, the software doesn't want someone uploading a completely different file under the same name as a commons file, so I had to do a few page moves to get everything into its proper place.

The files are File:Georges_Rochegrosse's_poster_for_Jules_Massenet's_Don_Quichotte.jpg and File:Georges_Rochegrosse's_poster_for_Jules_Massenet's_Don_Quichotte.png.

If I messed this up, please yell at me, and I'll be more careful in future. =) Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 18:41, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

For some reason, I am totally unable to view File:Georges Rochegrosse's poster for Jules Massenet's Don Quichotte - original.tif... Salvidrim! ✉ 18:45, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

TIFF support is highly limited, both on Wikipedia and elsewhere, and this exceeds the image size Wikipedia can support. I suppose I could upload the original as a PNG as well, if this is useful. Honestly, I don't know why Wikipedia even tries to offer TIFF support - the filesizes for TIFFs tend to be huge relative to other formats, even other lossless formats, so the 100-meg-upload-limit tends to be exceeded pretty easily for the sort of files (roughly speaking, FP-worthy ones) we'd want the original, unedited versions of.

But it's great when you feel lazy, but still want to make a token effort at documenting your work. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 18:52, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

It's not appearing for me either. OlYeller21^Talktome 19:39, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Too-large-to-process TIFFs apparently don't give an appropriate error message from the thumbnailer. I cheated and put up a JPEG of the original. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 21:14, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

User:Longevitydude

I'll start by noting that this user has been brought up here twice before: [21][22] Recently, I ran into this user at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mary Byrne (centenarian). We started by arguing a point, something that happens in AfDs, until he started talking in circles. At that point, I semi-gave-up and suggested that he provide the references he feel "would have" existed our exist but have since been deleted. After that, an SPA showed up 86.40.107.199 to !vote keep. This wouldn't be particularly concerning to me if I hadn't read his previous two ANI reports and this SPI where, at the very least, some fishy business was occurring. I also noted this edit where Longevitydude asks another editor to stop doing what they're doing and suggesting that the other user was from a forum called The 110 Club. After very little digging, I found that Longevitydude was essentially The Name That Will Not Be Mentioned on that forum, having been banned for something that wouldn't even be shared publicly. You can see that conversation at z3(dot)invisionfree.com/The_110_Club/index.php?showtopic=6127 (apparently the whole site is blacklisted). You can see at other Wikis that this is something he takes personally. Here is where he was accused of canvassing at ArbCom. Here is where an enforcement request was made due to more accusations of canvassing.

Bases on this users editing habits, it appears that their goal is to sympathize with other members whose articles got afds which apparently means voting !keep on any AfD for an article about a person who is notable for being old (sometimes just over 100, sometimes the oldest in a country). He takes it as far as to comment on the talk page of closed AfDs (see here).

I bring this here because I really have no idea what to do at this point. I get the feeling I've hit the tip of an iceberg and I'm way over my head. Any suggestions would be welcomed.

I notified the mentioned users here and here. OlYeller21^Talktome 19:08, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

I also found some, what I could call emotional editing regarding people over 100, at other Wikis but I don't know if that's appropriate to share here. OlYeller21^Talktome 19:27, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

A quick note from someone who's familiar with this situation; Longevitydude's intentions are nothing but good, but he does have a way of taking these AfDs a bit too personally. I can provide specifics if necessary, but only if necessary. For the full background, this is something that dates back to 2010, and involves an arbitration case which was quickly followed by a warning to several editors after an AE thread. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 20:43, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

I would hardly call editing other people's comments "nothing but good". I also find it hard to believe that someone whose intentions are "nothing but good" would be involved in so many accusations of wrongdoing. OlYeller21^Talktome 17:02, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

I admittedly haven't edited there much in the last year, but that was my impression of things; it's entirely possible things have changed. I do find some of his behavior here somewhat concerning. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:14, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

This seems like a very odd conversation to have with a stranger. Now he's going around saying that I'm lying that they're the same person. As any can see, I simply pointed out that it was odd that an SPA would pop up to vote in an AfD for their second edit.

Are my feelings unfounded? I'm not sure what to do here or if something should be done. OlYeller21^Talktome 01:30, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

User:Starship9000

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The user is always attempting to delete and damage articles. He does not add anything productive to Wikipedia, but rather he just mass deletes anything he feels does not meet his knowledge. User [personal information redacted] comes out with comments like "I don't want this on here" or "This is not notable because I don't know it or know about it." The user also dubs himself an "architect" architectural expert [personal information redacted]. He has been warned by administrators but he keeps vandalizing the pages. Please block or ban this user because he is hurting the collegial atmosphere and the encyclopedic purpose of Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?limit=50&tagfilter=&title=Special%3AContributions&contribs=user&target=starship9000&namespace=&tagfilter=&year=&month=-1 He is trying to delete everything. All he does is delete but does nothing to add any sort of knowledge to anything. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Starship9000 he has several warnings on his page.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.212.29.226 (talk • contribs)

• I think this AN/I is a little too soon - he's just had a last warning before a sanction (of sorts, basically, he's been told to have a break or face being blocked), and that only came this morning. Lukeno94 (talk) 20:09, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
• He has been warned repeatedly, yet he still continues to damage articles. He has damaged probably hundreds of articles. He is a virus to the encyclopedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.212.29.226 (talk) 20:13, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
• But since their last comment they made another very unproductive edit--I was going to close this thread and say "it's being discussed" when I saw this edit. I'm blocking them for 24 hours and left an explanation on the talk page. Let's not pile this on; I won't close the thread myself, but I think it can be closed. And no, he's not a virus: this isn't contagious. Drmies (talk) 20:15, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

• OK, maybe I should pay a little more attention *retreats back into hole* Lukeno94 (talk) 20:24, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

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IP linking dates against MOS

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These IPs: 190.111.10.49 (talk · contribs), 190.111.10.43 (talk · contribs), 190.111.10.44 (talk · contribs), 190.111.10.46 (talk · contribs), 190.111.10.39 (talk · contribs), 190.111.10.47 (talk · contribs), 190.111.10.46 (talk · contribs), have been persistently link dates on album which violates MOS as well as overlinking. Attempted discussions to have these have failed as they still continue to link dates on albums relating to Spanish-language albums. Note that all these IPs are traced to Guatemala. Erick (talk) 20:35, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Having checked their contributions, I would block them, but I doubt it would be useful because another IP would soon pop up from the same range. I'd implement a rangeblock, but I don't know how to do it — if you're not an admin and know how, tell me what to do and I'll do it. Magiciandude, did you mean to link .46 twice, or was it an error for another IP address? Nyttend (talk) 00:23, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Consider using the 'rangelinks' template. 190.111.10.32/27 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)) presents a 'block user' button that will do the appropriate rangeblock. The recent contributions from this range are here. Since this is only a /27 and the rangecontribs don't reveal any collateral damage it seems to me that a one-month block might be considered. The high-volume editor is trying to do general fixes (which are good, at least potentially) at the same time he is insisting on linking the dates, but his refusal to negotiate doesn't leave us much in the way of options. EdJohnston (talk) 00:56, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

I rangeblocked the /27 subnet. Hopefully this will prompt them to start talking on their talk pages. If they do, and they seem to understand why they were blocked, then they should be unblocked. This block is mainly because the user(s) at these IP's are making moderately disruptive edits against MOS, and not responding to complaints on their talk pages. ‑Scottywong| spill the beans _ 01:13, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

That range is actually part of a larger /19 network (Navega.com S.A.), although all those edits are confined to the *.32/27 portion. Scotty beat me to the punch. I hate to block since he is trying to help, but it is the only way to prevent disruption so I support it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:15, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

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Disruptive editing by user Emmette Hernandez Coleman

I once again find user Emmette using disruptive techniques for article editing per his POV. This includes the previous attempts to issue rename/merge proposals "on behalf" of other editors (mimicking my comments - here and here), where he was requested to seize such practice [23]. Recently, he tried to delete template:SADR topics (see [24]), and when opposed, he abused User:Jan CZ's name to edit template:Western Sahara topics in order to show "as if" merger of the first template with the latter (see [25]). He made the same disruptive practice, when trying to delete Coat of arms of the State of Palestine but opposed - he abused my comment, putting it into a different perspective (see [26]), in order to edit Coat of arms of the Palestinian National Authority and presenting "as if" merger of both articles, while the afd on Coat of arms of the State of Palestine was so far without consensus [27]. I find those actions severely problematic to the articles' development.Greyshark09 (talk) 22:44, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

• These are mostly gross exaggerations. Regarding the first "mimicking your comment" you brought that up at AN and it was rejected as a serous issue. The second one, I made a minor mistake. I wasn't aware of the distention between formal move discussions and informal ones at the time, so from my point of view all I did was apply the move discussion template to a move discussion, I already explained that to you. Rather then simply explaining that distinction or pointing me to the third bullet point of the WP:RM page, which describes that, you blew up at me and got extremely uncivil. Your incivility was far more serious then my minor mistake.

As for the second two, When copping content within Wikipidia per WP:CWW I must give the contributers credit. Claiming the content as my own is not an option. Regarding the template I wasn't merging anything, Jan CZ's list was not in the SADR template at the time and I thought that it would fit beautifully in the WS template. At for the CoA articles as I recall it Greayshark split the article without any discussion and when I reverted his split and asked him to propose a split on the talk page, instead of discussing he just restored his split article. I only "merged" the article with itself to make it less wordy (I think that was before Greyshark restored his new article). I then imported content from Greyshark's new article to the old one because it was information that also belonged in the old article, copying is not the same thing as merging. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 01:25, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - I had an unsettling experience with this editor a few weeks ago while working on some airport pages. When I came to create a list of airports in Palestine, I met with a certain amount of what i thought to be unreasonable resistance from the editor. The editor is very knowlegable about Wikipedia, and has a tendency to game the system and wikilawyer, bogging down what should be very simple proceedures. I found that the editor calls himself into action with any subject that concerns Palestine. While this is a subject that I have no particular feeling about, needless to say I was happy to move on after my work was done. I do not think that the editor is a bad person or anything like that. I get more of an impression that he is simply working with the tools he has, and within the system, to meet his passions. Unfortunately this behavior is almost indistiguishable from gaming the system and POV pushing. I would like to see the editor voluntarily back-off...at least a tad bit...from these issues, particularly those involving Palestine, as I do not think that the editor realizes exactly how much time and energy is wasted due to his actions. I don't think a topic ban is necessary or anything like that, just a voluntary "loosening up". I can see how others might view this problematic editor as a "bully", "acting in bad faith", etc., but I do not think that is the case. It is my belief, as I said before, that this editor is simply very passionate about these subjects, and does not intend to be disruptive. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 06:37, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

  You mean Talk:List of airports in the Palestinian territories. As recall we allredy had a list of airports in Palestine, and you wanted to move that article to use "Palestine" or "State of Palestine" in it's title, not because of a difference between it and the other "Palestinian territories" articles that would warrant a different title, but only because you felt that the UN vote rendered the phrase "Palestinian territories" obsolete. I pointed out that there was no reason to treat that page's title differently then most of the other West Bank/Gaza Strip topic articles, and that WP:LOCALCONSENSUS there could not override the president of the titles of other WB/GS topic articles, that the appropriate place for discussing weather "Palestinian territories" is still appropriate for article titles would be a mass RM. You then invited Greyshark and came in and once again made his fringe assertions about the term "Palestinian territories" that he kept making all throughout Wikipedia, which had already been rejected by 4 editors (now 6) editors, and contradicted the longstanding lead of the Palestinian territories article, clearly which defines the Palestinian territories as consisting of the West Bank and Gaza. I was regather annoyed that he didn't seem to heat that (also because he has a habit of removing the phrase "Palestinian Territories" from articles without any consensus based on his rejected assertions), maybe that's what you interpreted as passion. I started a centralized discussion about weather "Palestinian territories" were still appropriate titles for West Bank/Gaza Strip topic articles considering the UN vote (you weren't the only person who had asserted that, someone else did an another page) and there was no conciseness that that the UN vote rendered "Palestinian territories" titles inappropriate. If there had been consensus that WB/GS topic articles should use a title other then "Palestinian territories", I would have supported moving that article. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 02:55, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - following the above complaint, user Emmette executed another disruptive action, aiming at de facto deleting article Coat of arms of the State of Palestine, even though the latter is still in afd discussion, with no seeming consensus for deletion so far. Currently, he undid my revert oto what seemed as his disruptive edits (see [28]) and asked to rename Coat of arms of the Palestinian National Authority into Palestinian Coat of arms (see [29]), which seems to "cancel" the need in article Coat of arms of the State of Palestine. This is a clear attempt to game the system and highly disruptive, not mentioning that he is justifying his rationale as "More importing User:Greyshark09's words", which is outrageous.Greyshark09 (talk) 07:57, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

  That article covers both the Palestinian Authority and the State of Palestine and has done so sense 2011, I think that "Palestinian Coat of arms" better reflects that scope. I don't know what you meen by "justifying his rationale", but I already explained to you, WP:CWW requires me to give the contributers of content content when copping content within Wikipedia. Giving you credit for content that was partly your work has nothing to do with "my rationale" for the RM. For the reason for my revert see Talk:Coat_of_arms_of_the_Palestinian_National_Authority#revert Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 03:24, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Removal of Content at Saudi Arabia on Execution of Rizana Nafeek

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I have added the following on the article since the nature of the incident is very inhumane and the following content is vital to explain the whole scenario.

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The European Union expressed dismay that Saudi Arabia had beheaded a young Sri Lankan domestic helper convicted of murdering her employer's baby, despite repeated appeals for a stay of execution. Human rights groups said Rizana Nafeek was 17 at the time of the offense and that Saudi Arabia was one of just three countries in the world to impose the death penalty for crimes committed as a minor.

UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, United Nations independent experts and the world body’s human rights office voiced their dismay over the execution of Rizana Nafeek. Rupert Colville, a spokesperson for the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) told in Geneva, "We are deeply troubled by reports of irregularities in her detention and trial, including that no lawyer was present to assist her in key stages of her interrogation and trial, that language interpretation was poor, and Ms. Nafeek’s contention that she was physically assaulted and forced to sign a confession under duress,". The Special Rapporteur on torture, Juan Méndez, noted that during the appeal of the case, the defence submitted that Ms. Nafeek was beaten and made to sign a confession under duress. "Her execution is clearly contrary to the Convention on the Rights of the Child and the Convention against Torture," he said.

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DeCausa contesting the addition second paragraph above on the article. DeCausa says I am trying to use Saudi Arabia as WP:SOAPBOX. Though I said on the Talk:Saudi Arabia that "Since Saudi Arabia is not heeded to listen to the world, the content should be included", I am not advocating anything but try to explain widely practising inhumane treatment on Foreign Workers though they are Minors and Women in General in Saudi Arabia and their archaic and biased judicial process and the execution methods. I don't think the content should be placed elsewhere; it doesn't represent one case but the untold incidents of many in Saudi Arabia.Sudar123 (talk) 01:48, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

• This appears like it is a content issue, not something that should be at ANI. GregJackP Boomer! 02:00, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Seconded. That this is a blatant violation of the article's scope and UNDUE goes elsewhere. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:43, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

The possible behavioral issue is the edit warring. Sudar123, it was good that you were WP:BOLD and added the information. However, another editor reverted you, which is also fine. At this point, both of you (and others) need to keep discussing the matter on the article's talk page. While the discussion goes on, you should not attempt to add the information; the standard practice is to keep out the information until there is a consensus to include it. If you find that you're not able to reach an agreement on the article talk page, you can pursue dispute resolution to get other editor's involved. However, if you keep trying to add the info in, you're going to be blocked for edit warring. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:01, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

• As you've already been warned, Sudar. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:04, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

• Crisco, I am not such fool to get my valuable account blocked, while either Rizana Nafeek is Not my own sister or niece. As Qwyrxian said I will take this issue to DRN shortly. I couldn't understand when Saudi Arabia breached fundamental rights of a Minor and most needed fair judicial process against her capital punishment whether we are over emphasising here on article's scope and UNDUE.Sudar123 (talk) 05:30, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

• As I've mentioned elsewhere, several times, the country (sadly) has done it numerous times. A single case should not be given two paragraphs in this article.

On a more pertinent note, if she was related to you, adding the information would be a conflict of interest and should really be avoided. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:32, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, she is not related to me; I missed to add "Not" there and added now.Sudar123 (talk) 05:35, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

• Alright. Using the article's talk page, everyone should discuss whether this needs a mention in the main article or if we can created a migrant workers in Saudi Arabia article which can document why workers go to the country and cases like this — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:41, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Crisco, my view is the content should be included on the page. And also a beheading image should be included on the right hand. Wikipedia should not mislead the Saudi Arabia's oil rich to the poor third world countries; they send their youngsters out of poverty. Since Wikipedia is ranked in the Google Search on First; with a simple search those poor masses could be misled; the sin will follow us.

I don't belong to the Islamic religious sector though I have Islamic friends all over the world. What I found on the Talk Page of Saudi Arabia is disturbing me a lot. It goes as below(sic);

Wahhabi/Salafi. NOT Islamic

Every mention of Islam in this article should be change to 'Wahhabi' or 'Salafi' which is what Saudi Barbaria practices. Wahhabism/Salafism (both interchangeable terms for the same primitive ideology) is a savage cult created by a fanatic called AbdulWahab about 200 years and its 'beliefs' are offensive to millions of Muslims around the world. The Saudi regime just beheaded a poor Sri Lankan Muslim CHILD on the most flimsiest accusations. Stop calling Saudi Barbaria 'Muslim' or 'Islamic' because they are not! Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.231.83.93 (talk) 02:00, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

I will discuss further on this on the article talk page.Sudar123 (talk) 05:57, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Undelete fair use file, please

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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File:Dissident Prophet's We're Not Grasshoppers, 1995.jpg was orphaned, apparently due to a typo fixed here. Please undelete the file. Rich Farmbrough, 06:12, 13 January 2013 (UTC).

Done. Viridae^{DON'T PANIC} 06:17, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WP:OUTING

Hello, on my talk page Stalwart said I could go here to get more information about the outing policy. We have a long discussion on there if someone would like to look at it thank you. It is "Posting another editor's personal information is harassment, unless that person voluntarily had posted his or her own information, or links to such information, on Wikipedia" that we are discussing. Does this include if they put their real name as Author under a picture they upload for instance. Thank you, MarioNovi (talk) 09:58, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

• If Googling someone's username gives you their real-life identity as the first hit, then it is not outing to point this out. There is "poorly covering up ones online identity" and then there is "deliberately using another name people know me by". Someguy1221 (talk) 10:19, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Really. Does that mean that I did not have to strike out the research I did here Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2013 January 13#Punkcast like Stalwart said here User talk:MarioNovi#Harassment? Maybe it does not matter because you are allowed to edit an article about yourself anyway it seems. I guess I am just curious about policy for future use. Thank you, MarioNovi (talk) 10:28, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
• It would have been nice to get a notification of this thread, as is required. Anyway... The issue here is that MarioNovi undertook some off-WP research about who a particular editor here might be in real life. He presented the results of his "research" when making this AFD nomination, claiming the article should be deleted because he had "discovered" who the original author really was and thus was of the opinion that such person (if the same) would have a conflict of interest. The AFD prompted comments about the COI but not really about the nomination. But when MarioNovi later posted comments about the editor "referring to himself in the 3rd person" and at DRV suggested that the editor was the subject of an article about a website, it became obvious that the intention was to out the editor in question (or attempt to) as "evidence" to back the COI claim. I issued a warning (first at DRV, then on MarioNovi's talk page) that doing so constituted outing and that the harassment policy trumps the COI guideline. MarioNovi responded by explaining (in detail, including at DRV) how his research had led him to conclude that editor's real-world identity (effectively outing all over again). In particular, he suggested that a name linked-to from an account at Commons and a non-WP website that linked the individual and a username on other sites (the same as a WP username but with no direct link to WP) provided proof of the link. On that basis, MarioNovi believes the editor has exposed his own real life identity sufficiently that his own doing so again here (without permission) did not constitute outing. In my view, there is no definative proof that X = Y, let alone the sort of open, self-outing that would ordinarily moot WP:OUTING. MarioNovi wanted a "second opinion" from an admin whether his outing was "outing" and whether my interpretation of his activities was accurate. I suggested that removing his "research" would be enough for everyone to move on (without the need for a formal report) but he would clearly like a second opinion. So here were are. So I suppose the question would be - was MarioNovi's off-WP research sufficient to justify on-WP outing?. Stalwart111 11:54, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
• Let's not get drawn onto the "Googling someone's username" diversion. This is about commons:Special:Contributions/Wwwhatsup, where Wwwhatsup (talk · contribs) identifies xyrself by name as the author of several files. It's also about Punkcast (AfD discussion) (review) and Better Badges (AfD discussion), where really the "Who is the Wikipedia editor?" question is a red herring given that the existences and provenances of sources should be the focus. Frankly, this whole "You're Joly MacFie!" — "Well you are a single purpose account!" — "Stop this outing!" discussion has completely lost the plot. Do independent sources from people with good reputations for fact checking and accuracy exist that cover Joly MacFie's various businesses in depth? Do the sources indicate that refactoring into a biography of Joly MacFie is appropriate? Those are the focus here, people. Uncle G (talk) 12:04, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Thank you Uncle. That is what I meant above when I said " Maybe it does not matter because you are allowed to edit an article about yourself anyway it seems.", and it is also why I striked out the part about the user's identity in the DRV. You are right people get distracted by it I feel like I keep getting pulled into that issue to defend myself. Anyway I only asked here because I wanted to know if it was an outing or not, not if it relates to the DRV. We aren't discussing the DRV. Does that make sense to anyone? Maybe this is not a good place so we can talk about it on my talk page. Thank you, MarioNovi (talk) 18:35, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

What we have here is a single-purpose account, MarioNovi, that purpose being to get a couple of articles deleted which were created by a particular user, named Wwwhatsup, who apparently is open about having a personal interest in creating the article. That can be problematic, but as Uncle G points out, the important thing is for articles to meet wikipedia standards. The nominations for deletion appear to be based on who created the articles, not on article content as such. Meanwhile, while trying to personalize those articles as much as possible, MarioNovi refuses to discuss his own past.[30] So it looks like a personal vendetta. If that isn't bad-faith editing, I don't know what is. And in general, MarioNovi's attempts to define and restrict the discussion are tactics often used by boomerang-wielding editors. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:47, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

• MarioNovi's efforts show a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality, and if not WP:OUTING, it is sufficiently close enough to make me uncomfortable about it. Despite what UncleG says, we should not just be concerned with the retention or deletion of articles based on the presence (or lack thereof) of reliable sources--we must also be concerned with the protection of our editor's privacy. In the area of outing, we should take a strong, firm stance that it is not acceptable, that it is not an appropriate argument at either AFD or DRV, and that when someone gets too close to that line, they should be warned. If they continue, then rapid block is warranted. The consequences of outing are severe enough for some that we should take absolutely no chances, and have absolutely no tolerance for actions in that area. GregJackP Boomer! 22:07, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Repeated editing of articles against WikiProject consensus

WP:TL;DR version: Willdawg111 (talk · contribs) has returned to editing MMA results tables in a manner that goes against consensus. This is behavior they have done before, has been asked to stop doing, and has been warned that continuing to make these edits could result in a block of their editing privledges. There are general sanctions in effect for the MMA article space and this situation may fall into it.

Longer Version: Last month Willdawg111 (talk · contribs) started a discussion in regards to the format and contents of MMA result tables. There was not a lot discussion about Willdawg's suggested changes. After a few weeks, Willdawg !voted in favor of his changes and in the same edit declared discussion was closed with his single vote creating a new consensus over the formats[31]. Willdawg proceeded to change the WP:MMA page to his suggested changes[32] as well as editing multiple articles with the changes[33][34][35][36][37][38][39][40][41][42][43][44][45][46]. Their edits were reverted by multiple users who included edit summaries stating there was no consensus for the changes. Willdawg then reverted many of those reverts, including multiple times on WP:MMA[47][48][49][50]. Willdawg has been informed that there is no consensus to make these changes at WT:MMA[51][52][53][54][55][56] and about edit warring on their talk page[57]. The resulting discussion and closure by an admin shows Willdawg's perferred format to not have consensus. However, even with the previous warnings, Willdawg has returned to making these same kinds of edits against consensus.[58][59][60][61][62] As mentioned above there are general sanctions over the MMA article space which may require an admin to step in and determine what actions, if any, needs to be done. --TreyGeek (talk) 18:13, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Willdawg111 deletes all warnings posted in his talk page by fellow editors, ignoring and disregarding them. Here some diffs: [63], [64], [65], [66], [67], [68], [69], [70]. --LlamaAl (talk) 19:11, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

I can empathize. It is really annoying, after all, to have a small group of people hounding you because your new views conflict with their "consensus". PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 23:34, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

• I try to keep my talk page cleaned up. I keep only what I need, such as links to guidelines and pages that are pointed out. It doesn't matter if its somebody falsely accusing me of violating a policy or pointing out something positive. Check my talk page history, I clean up the old information that I don't need anymore. Willdawg111 (talk) 00:04, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
  • In those cases is better to archive your talk page. --LlamaAl (talk) 00:24, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

And I have no idea how to do that. Willdawg111 (talk) 02:22, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Not violating Consensus There was a consensus to go to this new design. If you read what was closed out, the admin specifically allowed for minor changes to the format, which is all that I'm doing. All I'm doing is a minor cleaning up which is NOT in violation of what was decided. The consensus guidelines speicifically allow editors to voice their opinion as to the current consensus via their editing. I have been very careful to read the guidelines and follow them. Please close this out A.S.A.P. Willdawg111 (talk) 19:50, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Canvassing This came off of the accusers talk page:
Report of Willdawg editing articles against consensus again

TreyGeek, Willdawg111 (talk · contribs · count) is changing result tables against consensus again. Could you report him at ANI? Here are some diffs: [1] [2] Thanks in advance. --LlamaAl (talk) 17:29, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

• ANI notice has been started. --TreyGeek (talk) 18:15, 13 January 2013 (UTC) Good. --LlamaAl (talk) 19:12, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:TreyGeek
This is clearly the work of somebody violating canvasing policies to get somebody who has a similar viewpoint as to the direction of the MMA project to come after me. There is a big split in the opinion of the project going on on several key issues. I am one of one of the vocal editors on one side, and these two are vocal editors on the other side.
This is the reason that I have been careful to follow the guidelines and do everthing by the book.Willdawg111 (talk) 20:13, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

That's not canvassing. Read WP:CANVASS. --LlamaAl (talk) 23:09, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

• Indeed, it's not canvassing. Moving right along. Drmies (talk) 23:22, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
• Why was Wilddawg not blocked for the recent edit war here? I've been involved in a couple of the MMA discussions, where Wilddawg basically proposes some major format change, calls for a timeline, hopes no one responds, and then "closes" the proposal saying it passed. They don't appreciate how Wikipedia works and are (as is pretty plain to me) not furthering our project. Drmies (talk) 23:45, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
• First of all, in order to have an editing war, there has to be 2 sides. Second of all, I did everything by the book, including making sure not to violate the editing rules. Willdawg111 (talk) 23:59, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
  • There were two sides: you and the other editors. You have been blocked for edit warring in the past. --LlamaAl (talk) 00:07, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
• Editing wars: If they were editing wars, you would be guilty also LlamaAl because you were reverting my edits.
• WP:CONSJust want to point out that the small changes I've made all fall under Conensus by editing. There is a split in the group and I am voicing my opinion in the split by voting by editing, which is clearly allowed and encouraged under the guidelines of Wikipedia. May I suggest the couple people who came here making accusations, to please read consensus page because there are 2 major issues they aren't understanding. The first is the consesnsus by editing which is just pointed out. The second part is that consensus is supposed to be reached by compromise and working together, where every give a little bit to come to an agreement on guidelines everybody can live with. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Mixed_martial_arts. If you look at the project talk page, you will see its me and 1 other person who have been pushing for compromise and working together. I opened a dialog on another admin page over a week ago because these 2 same editors have refused to work together and compromise with the rest of the group. I really hope you can see through their smoke screen and see that it isn't me thats the issue, I'm the one trying to push for compromise, it's these couple editors that inisist everything is done their way, no compromise, and they will do whatever they have to in order to get their way. What they are doing, isn't what Wikipedia is supposed to be about. Willdawg111 (talk) 00:27, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't see why I would be guilty. I just reverted your edits in a WikiProject guideline because there were against consensus. --LlamaAl (talk) 00:33, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

• What LlamaAl says. How can I say this? You were obviously edit-warring and should have been blocked on 4 January. You got reverted by three different editors. So no, you did not do everything by the book. I'm not going to block you in hindsight, but if you don't see that you were edit-warring here then you don't know what edit-warring is--and for someone who's been blocked for 3R before, that's kind of not smart. You could, of course, apologize for those past actions, say that you now understand where you went wrong and were reverted by three different editors, etc. Or you could hold on to the erroneous statement that you were right and the even more erroneous statement that your "vote was closed" meant anything at all. For the bystanders: I think Willdawg is referring to the "vote" in Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Mixed_martial_arts#Cleaning_up_the_format; see their comment on 2 January. Drmies (talk) 00:36, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Sockpuppet investigation I would like to point out that the editor who instigated this is currently under investigation as being a sockpuppet of a repeat offender of a permanently blocked user. Can I suggest this be close out until the sockpuppet clerks can confirm the status of this editor? Willdawg111 (talk) 02:07, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

• Extraordinary claims require extraordinary documentation Willdawg, I say this with the most thinly veiled contempt, throwing every elbow and trick in the book to distract from the matter at hand only proves that your editing and participation in the community is disruptive. Hasteur (talk) 02:44, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

There's nothing disruptive about my editing. If you are referring to the sockpuppet investigation, this was originally started a couple weeks ago, and I'm batting 100% for recognizing sockpuppets. Willdawg111 (talk) 02:51, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

@Willdawg111 the editor who instigated this was in fact TreyGeek and there is no SPI on him that I can see, if you are referring to LlamaAl, a CU has confirmed last week there is no link between those accounts. I sympathise with your frustration with socks, WP:MMA has a whole draw of them, and sometimes it may appear that accounts are linked when they are not. For the recorded I would support routine CU checks being run on all participants of MMA related AfD's and WT:MMA discussions. ✍ Mtking ✉ 03:30, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

A more fundamental question

There are many respectable meanings of the abbreviation MMA, but it appears that instead the meaning mixed martial arts is intended – as was the case in more than 30 other ANI reports since May 2010. I also found out that this 'sport' is so brutal that it cannot be shown on German television. Given the significant trouble once caused by even a single editor with an unhealthy interest in dog-baiting and related 'sports', I am not at all surprised that the existence of an entire WikiProject of editors with interests of such a nature has negative side effects.

Has there ever been a fundamental debate on whether we really want to afford detailed coverage of barely borderline encyclopedic information (basically everything that goes beyond a single article on each major topic) relating to physical activities that appeal primarily to the most violent and least literate parts of American society? It would appear to me that the ratio usefulness/(effort+accuracy) is probably never going to become acceptable for such topics. Hans Adler 19:54, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

• Your comment is laughably ridiculous. Ryan Vesey 19:57, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Is that supposed to be a yes or a no? Or are you just outing yourself as someone who thinks that tables and entire series of articles on "MMA" constitute indispensable encyclopedic content that Wikipedia cannot possibly drop over considerations of practicality in times of dropping editor numbers? Hans Adler 20:32, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
• “This is not something that smart young people look down their noses at.” -- Robert Thompson, Syracuse University. NE Ent 20:51, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
  • So Hans Adler takes the view that MMA is a horrible activity, the people interested in it are horrible people, the editors who edit articles on it are horrible editors and the articles they edit are horrible articles: and that there should be a fundamental debate on whether Wikipedia can survive all this horrbleness. How refreshing. Others might take the view that the whole dispute is a waste of electrons. Cold run bozo (talk) 21:53, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
• The reason, in my opinion, that mixed martial arts has developed the entrenched, hostile, and battlefield-like demeanor is that several fan sites (Such as Bloody Elbow, MMAJunkie, MMAWiki, the MMA sub-reddit) all have regular "Crusades against Wiki-Tyranny" with specific instructions about how to "vote" to save articles that they want. It has been explained on multiple occasions the rules we operate under. Several attempts have been made to go to the source of these crusades to explain how the wiki works. The time for education/acceptance is over. It's time for the school of hard knocks. The above mentioned editor has been warned that their conduct has been lacking on multiple occasions, yet we still have to procedurally walk through each step of the warning system to get the application of the community endorsed sanctions Hasteur (talk) 22:17, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Slow your roll. MMajunkie is apart of USAtoday. Your complaint is meritless. Arguing over tables? Go home. PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 23:30, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

If the label fits... Yes there's a MMAJunkie section with news, but the majority is user contributed opinion and forums for enthusiasts to echo chamber about how wonderful the sport is. So yes I cast MMAJunkie in the fan site category. Your rebuttal is meritless, how about you go home? Hasteur (talk) 23:39, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

• • Can we add a moratorium on articles about war? Why on earth would we want detailed coverage of such horrific human activity?--SPhilbrick(Talk) 23:09, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
• It appears to me that $usefulness/(effort+accuracy)$ isn't the correct formula, unless minimizing encyclopaedia accuracy is somehow the goal. Have you been consorting with economists again, M. Adler? ☺ Uncle G (talk) 23:19, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
• I think MMA is a horrible phenomenon that ought to be banned and is far overrepresented on Wikipedia, but the implications of the post above (and again, I'm sympathetic to the ideas behind it) are rather troublesome, as others have pointed out. Against the current (talk) 23:31, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
• We got pokemon, we got rassling, we got K-pop, we got so much of that shit. At least, Hans, MMA appears to be more real than rassling, which is also a huge thing here. It will prove to be impossible to come up with some clear demarcation (trash on the one hand, encyclopedic content), if only because it will leave some editors with nothing to do. What can be done is aggressively edit those articles and trim for trivial, non-notable, poorly verified, fan-like stuff, and to support editors who do that. Enforcement of the regular rules, and participation by serious editors of the old-fashioned type on such boards as WP:RSN, might help as well. Unfortunately, that something can't be shown on German TV isn't much of a criterion. Consider that boobies etc. can't be shown on American TV. Drmies (talk) 23:51, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

"Enforcement of the regular rules, and participation by serious editors of the old-fashioned type on such boards as WP:RSN, might help as well." Well said. My 2p is that the MMA articles have gotten far out of hand with regard to the Pillars and the policies that support them. A return to reliable sourcing, notability, and civility would (could?) turn that part of the project into a useful resource. Unfortunately, it is unlikely to happen without some very hurt toes along the way. --Tgeairn (talk) 00:02, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Tellyuer1 and BLP violations

Just off a one week block for edit warring and BLP vios on Moshe Friedman and is straight back to the same.[71][72][73] Can someone just block him. Darkness Shines (talk) 22:39, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

all of my edits are sourced accurately and right. Cant just ban me bcause you dont like edits.Tellyuer1 (talk) 22:43, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Whether or not other users like your edits is not the issue. The issue is whether they comply with policies, such as WP:BLP. —C.Fred (talk) 22:44, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

of course agree. CBS news and many others said he had a parternship with Hamas. Sourced and BLP accurate. Pls review. they are wrong. Review. Tellyuer1 (talk) 22:48, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

I just looked at the three diffs above. None of the sources you provided said what you stated. They said things somewhat relating, but you took it to a higher level. We can't allow that. gwickwire^talk_edits 22:49, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

You are also on about 5 reverts within a half an hour. Darkness Shines (talk) 22:51, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Tellyuer1 is yet another sockpuppet of community banned User:Babasalichai. This should have been sorted out a week ago. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 22:59, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) I've blocked Tellyuer1 for one month. The only question in my mind was whether it should have been indefinite.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:00, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

I had reported him for socking[74] and he was, [[User:Babasalichai] was mentioned in the case but it seems to have been forgotten about. Darkness Shines (talk) 23:03, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

My thoughts on the case were sent to Amalthea via email about a week ago; I agree that Tellyuer1 is another Babasalichai sock and should be indef-blocked. I have now listed this account at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Babasalichai so hopefully this will now get straightened out. -- Dianna (talk) 23:27, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

IP user flagrantly ignores WP:V and WP:NPOV

IP user 122.62.226.243 has been blocked twice for edit warring and disruptive editing, both times for his/her persistence in adding unsourced opinion in articles relating to New Zealand Maori. On January 6 I removed two chunks of the Invasion of Waikato article on the grounds that it was unsourced opinion or was based on false and inadequate citations.[75][76]. The IP user has returned from their latest block to restore the statements, claiming it was "essential to the understanding of the nuances of topic".[77][78]. (I reverted, then so did the IP user).

I listed six significant issues on the talk page at Talk:Invasion of Waikato#Unsupported claims; the editor replied at Talk:Invasion of Waikato#44 Tainui " federation" chiefs signed the treaty claiming that the issue is not his/her refusal to provide citations, but my skewed, conservative view of history. The editor has previously claimed that most historians are wrong or that their views are outdated. A more comprehensive discussion of this editor's behavior is in the ANI archive. BlackCab (talk) 00:42, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Sounds like original research if it's completely unsourced, also if this is an ongoing pattern they may be in violation of edit warring. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 00:46, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Refactoring personal attacks

I am wondering if I might get some further input on this. In Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Namah Shivaya Shantaya, User:Abhidevananda posted the rhetorical question within one of his posts, "Is it Bigots Week at Wikipedia?" (diff) Understanding that this comment may have been tossed out due to frustration, I asked him on his talk page to remove the comment as it appeared to be a personal attack. (diff) He effectively refused by responded that the comment/question was "quite reasonable". (diff). I am not sure if I should refactor the comment myself or have an admin do it. Thanks! Location (talk) 03:09, 14 January 2013 (UTC)