Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement

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See also: Logged AE sanctions

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Please use this page only to:

request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator,
request contentious topic restrictions against previously alerted editors who engage in misconduct in a topic area designated as a contentious topic,
request page restrictions (e.g. revert restrictions) on pages that are being disrupted in topic areas designated as contentious topics, or
appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators.

For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard.

Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.

To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.

Appeals and administrator modifications of contentious topics restrictions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications of contentious topic restrictions state the following:

All contentious topic restrictions (and logged warnings) may be appealed. Only the restricted editor may appeal an editor restriction. Any editor may appeal a page restriction.

The appeal process has three possible stages. An editor appealing a restriction may:

ask the administrator who first made the contentious topic restrictions (the "enforcing administrator") to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email.

Appeals submitted at AE or AN must be submitted using the applicable template.

A rough consensus of administrators at AE or editors at AN may specify a period of up to one year during which no appeals (other than an appeal to ARCA) may be submitted.

Changing or revoking a contentious topic restriction

An administrator may only modify or revoke a contentious topic restriction if a formal appeal is successful or if one of the following exceptions applies:

The administrator who originally imposed the contentious topic restriction (the "enforcing administrator") affirmatively consents to the change,^[a] or is no longer an administrator;^[b] or
The contentious topic restriction was imposed (or last renewed) more than a year ago and:
- the restriction was imposed by a single administrator, or
- the restriction was an indefinite block.

A formal appeal is successful only if one of the following agrees with revoking or changing the contentious topic restriction:

a clear consensus of uninvolved administrators at AE,
a clear consensus of uninvolved editors at AN,
a majority of the Arbitration Committee, acting through a motion at ARCA.

Any administrator who revokes or changes a contentious topic restriction out of process (i.e. without the above conditions being met) may, at the discretion of the Arbitration Committee, be desysopped.

Standard of review
On community review

Uninvolved administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") and uninvolved editors at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN") should revoke or modify a contentious topic restriction on appeal if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action was not reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption when first imposed, or
the action is no longer reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption.

On Arbitration Committee review

Arbitrators hearing an appeal at a request for amendment ("ARCA") will generally overturn a contentious topic restriction only if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action represents an unreasonable exercise of administrative enforcement discretion, or
compelling circumstances warrant the full Committee's action.

^ The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.
^ This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

Appeals and administrator modifications of non-contentious topics sanctions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications and appeals state:

Appeals by sanctioned editors

Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. Requests for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor. The process has three possible stages (see "Important notes" below). The editor may:

ask the enforcing administrator to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators’ noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment at the amendment requests page ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email through Special:EmailUser/Arbitration Committee (or, if email access is revoked, to arbcom-enwikimedia.org).

Modifications by administrators

No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without:

the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or
prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" below).

Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped.

Nothing in this section prevents an administrator from replacing an existing sanction issued by another administrator with a new sanction if fresh misconduct has taken place after the existing sanction was applied.

Administrators are free to modify sanctions placed by former administrators – that is, editors who do not have the administrator permission enabled (due to a temporary or permanent relinquishment or desysop) – without regard to the requirements of this section. If an administrator modifies a sanction placed by a former administrator, the administrator who made the modification becomes the "enforcing administrator". If a former administrator regains the tools, the provisions of this section again apply to their unmodified enforcement actions.

Important notes:

For a request to succeed, either

(i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or

(ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA

is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails.

While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify.
These provisions apply only to contentious topic restrictions placed by administrators and to blocks placed by administrators to enforce arbitration case decisions. They do not apply to sanctions directly authorized by the committee, and enacted either by arbitrators or by arbitration clerks, or to special functionary blocks of whatever nature.
All actions designated as arbitration enforcement actions, including those alleged to be out of process or against existing policy, must first be appealed following arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before the action may be reversed or formally discussed at another venue.

Information for administrators processing requests

Thank you for participating in this area. AE works best if there are a variety of admins bringing their expertise to each case. There is no expectation to comment on every case, and the Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) thanks all admins for whatever time they can give.

A couple of reminders:

Before commenting, please familiarise yourself with the referenced ArbCom case. Please also read all the evidence (including diffs) presented in the AE request.
When a request widens to include editors beyond the initial request, these editors must be notified and the notifications recorded in the same way as for the initial editor against whom sanctions were requested. Where some part of the outcome is clear, a partial close may be implemented and noted as "Result concerning X".
Enforcement measures in arbitration cases should be construed liberally to protect Wikipedia and keep it running efficiently. Some of the behaviour described in an enforcement request might not be restricted by ArbCom. However, it may violate other Wikipedia policies and guidelines; you may use administrative discretion to resolve it.
More than one side in a dispute may have ArbCom conduct rulings applicable to them. Please ensure these are investigated.

Closing a thread:

Once an issue is resolved, enclose it between {{hat}} and {{hab}} tags. A bot should archive it in 7 days.
Please consider referring the case to ARCA if the outcome is a recommendation to do so or the issue regards administrator conduct.
You can use the templates {{uw-aeblock}} (for blocks) or {{AE sanction}} (for other contentious topic restrictions) to give notice of sanctions on user talk pages.
Please log sanctions in the Arbitration enforcement log.

Thanks again for helping. If you have any questions, please post on the talk page.

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Anythingyouwant

Anythingyouwant is indefinitely topic banned from all edits about, and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people, broadly construed. They may appeal this sanction using the methods outlined here. If the sanction is upheld then they may appeal every six months thereafter to me or using the methods linked to in the prior sentence. Constructive editing in other areas would make an appeal more likely to be viewed very favorably by me. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:23, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Anythingyouwant

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: MrX (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 14:11, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Anythingyouwant (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBAPDS

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

April 19, 2018 - Violation of article editing restrictions.
April 19, 2018 - "I am tired of you and your POV pushing. Go away from this talk page, please, and don’t come back, ever. You can see I have cited BLP in my edit summary. Now go away to whatever administrative forum you wish to abuse. If wikipedia had a jury-like system instead of the structure it has now, you would not be able to subvert the rules to advance your POV, as you do incessantly, and doubtless are about to do in the present case. Wikipedia is the biggest propaganda outfit on Earth, thanks to folks like you. Cheers." (Personal attack)

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

November 27, 2017 - AE sanction for restoring challenged text on an edit restricted American politics article. Used similar reasoning: "Per WP:NPOV and WP:BLP."
January 23, 2018 - AE Topic ban extend by one month (AE discussion)
January 20, 2018 - AE topic ban

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on November 27, 2017 by TonyBallioni (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on January 20, 2018 by Coffee (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint: Related talk page discussion: Talk:Donald Trump#BLP

I'm nonplussed by Anythingyouwant's doubling down on calling me a POV-pusher who abuses administrative boards. As far as I'm concerned, behaviour like this, which has been going on for years, is not going to be quelled by a narrow three month topic ban.- Mr X 🖋 14:47, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Sandstein:

Anythingyouwant adds the content: [1]
I remove the content: [2]
Anythingyouwant reverts my edit, effectively restoring the challenged material:[3]

I'm disappointed at the ineffectual proposals by some of the admins below. Anythingyouwant has a history of using BLP as a shield and gaming the system to advance his POV.[4] He has a history of unfounded personal attacks, often far worse than his flagrant assault on my integrity.

How many times do we have to come back to AE and ANI before something meaningful is done to address this long term, recurrent problem. I'm tired of of having to politely ask Anythingyouwant to follow our rules, only to have my hand slapped down as if he has some superior editing insight that the rest of us are too biased or stupid to understand. We have dozens of conservative leaning editors like JFG, FallingGravity, PackMecEng, Springee, Markbassett, Dervorguilla, and many others who manage to help balance content without constantly bending the rules to their favor and attacking other editors. Would it help if I produced a list of Anythinyouwant's personal attacks, or a list of his attempts to blatantly game the system, or a list of his faux retirements? Do we need an American Politics 3 Arbcom case before this will addressed in a meaningful way?

Admins, please help me help you. This falls way short of what is necessary.- Mr X 🖋 12:30, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Masem: You quoted me and then wrote: "There are definitely editors that are more liberal leaning editors with a strong POV that have repeated been brought to AN/AE for behavior, shall we do the same to them? (obviously not)." ← How is that a logical response to what I wrote about constructive editing from right leaning editors? I really don't understand the point you're trying to make.

On the other hand, the rest of your comment is abundantly clear: that you think I'm trying to eliminate an editor whose POV I disagree with. If that is what you have gleaned from this discussion; the block and topic ban history; the talk page archives; the Arbcom cases; the diffs; the wikilawyering; and your own participation in the May 2017 ANI discussion, then I can confidently say you have no business making any comments below the Result concerning Anythingyouwant heading. Please recuse yourself, or at least move your comments to the gallery.- Mr X 🖋 19:03, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[5]

Discussion concerning Anythingyouwant

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Anythingyouwant

Saying at my user talk page that User:MrX is a POV-pusher and that he abuses administrative boards like this one was intended as an honest opinion, and his complaint here about it only proves the point.

Regarding the other matter he raises, let’s be real. The Trump lead includes an allegation that he may have committed a basically treasonous act: conspiring with Russia to steal the election. That allegation belongs in the lead, and so does at least some brief mention that Trump has denied it, which he has done incessantly and emphatically. My edit explicitly cited “WP:BLP” and I did it only once, here, before taking it to the talk page. BLP is crystal clear about this: “If the subject has denied such allegations, that should also be reported”. The more notable an accusation, the more notable the denial.

Sime people at the talk page say it wasn’t really an allegation because it’s merely alleged that he may have done it. Others say that it was indeed an allegation, but still the denial can be put later in the article instead, leaving only the accusation in the lead. That all strikes me as baloney. Accusers don’t have to be 100% certain of guilt, for this part of BLP to apply. Moreover, WP:LEAD instructs: “The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic.“ After my one edit citing “WP:BLP”, I was reverted and did not repeat the edit. Instead I went to the talk page to listen to several editors make their implausible, partisan arguments. Anythingyouwant (talk) 14:38, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@NeilN, I hadn’t realized that calling Wikipedia a propaganda outfit at my user talk was blockable. If so, please block me from my user talk instead of from the article that you don’t want me involved with. Until Wikipedia adopts some kind of jury-like system, fora like this one will be sources of abuse. Anythingyouwant (talk) 14:42, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@User:NeilN, I’m well aware that user-talk is not a free-for-all zone. I didn’t call anyone a fucking retard. I said that Wikipedia is propagandistic, and that’s because certain editors make it so. Even if I did call someone a fucking retard at user talk, does that give you authority to dish out topic bans? For stuff I said at user talk? Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:13, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@User:NeilN, do you really think I ever suggested that editors cannot be sanctioned for user talk page posts? I instead questioned whether the type of sanction, i.e. a topic ban, is the proper type of sanction for something I said at my user talk. A proper sanction for calling someone ~~of the anointed ones~~ a POV-pusher at my user talk can take some form other than a topic ban, no? Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:28, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@User:NeilN, you will be implementing a three month topic ban on Donald Trump for something that was not said or done at either that article or that talk page. I called someone a POV-pusher at my own user talk. Do anything you want, I suppose. Call me whatever you want, I suppose. Whatever makes you feel good. I can certainly understand why you (plural) would not want a jury-like body to get in the way of your prescriptions. I will say quite frankly that Wikipedia’s most effective means of censorship is not to directly modify content, but rather to get rid of editors. You can judge for yourself how true that is. Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:42, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@User:NeilN, you say it’s wikilawyering for me to mention that this page is for enforcing arbitration sanctions whereas your only complaint about my alleged “attacks” is one single mild comment at my user talk page which has nothing to do with arbitration sanctions, and which I deleted hours ago. So, it seems you’re just throwing around catchphrases. I’ve already given my opinion above, regarding how and why folks like you operate. It will be very nice to have more space between us. Incidentally, the last sanction that you refer to was simply for an allegedly inaccurate edit summary, not for any edit that I made anywhere. In any event, you know as well as I do that no indefinite topic ban on me will ever be removed, that’s just the way things work around here. Congratulations, and farewell. Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:30, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@User:RegentsPark, I don’t see any indication that you’re any more aware than User:NeilN that the comment he objects to was at user talk, so banning me from somewhere aside from user talk seems like a misfire. I also don’t see any indication that you’re aware of a BLP exception to the “consensus required” restriction. You all are largely unaccountable and not detached, so none of this is surprising. Anythingyouwant (talk) 14:57, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Masem, isn’t there a BLP exemption from the page restrictions? If you doubt it, I can provide links. I successfully availed myself of that exemption here at this page in 2016. The article talk page includes a BLP template, saying “This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy”. Also, I took this to the article talk page after citing “WP:BLP” only once, so it’s obvious I wasn’t jamming it back in using “BLP” in my edit summary again. Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:04, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User:Masem, the policy you cite says “Removing violations of the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy that contain libelous, biased, unsourced, or poorly sourced contentious material. What counts as exempt under BLP can be controversial. Consider reporting to the BLP noticeboard instead of relying on this exemption.” Note the word “biased”. You don’t think I had a good faith belief that omitting a denial of treason is a biased omission? Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:17, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Repinging User:Masem. Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:19, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Mandruss, I agree with you that BLP appears to provide a very limited exemption, but it doesn't include anything one considers biased. So I relied on a very specific form of bias that is clearly spelled out in the BLP policy: describing allegations while omitting denials. They should remove the word “bias” from the list of exemptions, if they’re going to sanction everyone who invokes it, but perhaps that suggestion is quixotic as well. Better to entice people into removing obvious bias, so they can then be selectively sanctioned depending upon the type of bias. Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:15, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Mandruss, see WP:3RRNO. Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:30, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User:Mandruss, 3RRNO potentially applies to 1RR, so I don’t see why it wouldn’t likewise potentially apply to the Trump article as well. See what User:Masem said below. Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:52, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User:Mandruss, if someone switches the top image in the Trump article to an image of a chimpanzee, that is subject to repeated reversion under 3RRNO, regardless of whether a consensus at article talk supports the chimp image. You seem to be arguing otherwise, but that’s the whole point of 3RRNO. The matter about the image can then come here, the admins can identify and ban the vandals, end of story. Same with blatant bias in the lead that violates explicit and specific language in WP:BLP. That’s what the applicable guidelines and policies say, and I’m surprised you disagree. (I don’t care for your sarcastic comments about white knights, by the way.) Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:50, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User:Mandruss, I entirely agree that most BLP questions are far more nuanced than the chimpanzee example. So the admins here aren’t supposed to just take my word for it that BLP policy requires a brief denial in the Trump lead; they should go look at what WP:BLP says, go look at the lead as it stands now, read the applicable sanctions and 3RRNO, look at the proposed edits, read pertinent discussion at article talk, and reach a neutral decision about whether there’s a bias in the lead that violates BLP. None of that happens here because folks like you say it’s unnecessary to go through that process, and other folks just don’t feel in the mood. Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:09, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User:Mandruss, you say “AE's function is not resolve content disputes.” Unless it’s a chimpanzee picture, I gather. The discretionary sanctions say, “any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process” can be sanctioned. Blatantly violating a very clear BLP standard seems to qualify, IMHO. Anyway, you say we should all go home if Wikipedia fails. I will take that as very good advice. Wikipedia fails because there is no mechanism for randomly gathering uninvolved and uninterested editors together in a jury to apply BLP rules in disputes like this one, IMHO. Biased editors flock to every proceeding where they’re allowed. See you later, maybe. Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:15, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Bishonen, speaking of “crap”, when did my user talk page become subject to discretionary sanctions? Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:39, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Galobtter

Sandstein violation of consensus required before restoration per [6] and [7]. (not sure why MrX didn't include those diffs)

Clearly not under the purview of the BLP exemption unlike what Anythingyouwant seems to say. There isn't a vague hand wavy "BLP" exemption; WP:3RRNO is pretty clear about it being of "Removing violations of the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy that contain libelous, biased, unsourced, or poorly sourced contentious material." Galobtter (pingó mió) 14:51, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Only in death

Does anyone think Anythingyouwant is going to change his views about Trump in the next 3 months? Does anyone genuinely think a 3 month vacation from Trump will change his editing in any way regarding Trump? Just make the topic ban permanent and be done with this crap. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:08, 19 April 2018 (UTC) @Masem, I see you missed the second rhetorical question. "Does anyone genuinely think a 3 month vacation will change his editing in any way?". The combination of his POV regarding Trump and his inability to alter his behaviour means that a 3 month topic ban from one particular topic in US politics is unlikely to do anything except push the problem back for 3 months. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:01, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Mandruss

There is no exemption to the ArbCom restrictions for opposition to perceived POV-pushing. If there were, the ArbCom restrictions would be virtually worthless, as misperceived POV-pushing is rampant. BLP appears to provide a very limited exemption, but it doesn't include anything one considers biased. If it did, the ArbCom restrictions would be virtually worthless, as misperceived bias is rampant. Anythingyouwant seems unable to err on the side of caution when editing under the remedies, which I expressed to them in January. And claiming that the entire system is corrupt is tilting at windmills, pure and simple. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:07, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Anythingyouwant: BLP does not trump CONSENSUS, which is why we go immediately to talk upon a challenge even if we are asserting BLP. Once we got to talk, we saw legitimate opinion from multiple experienced editors that the preceding sentence is not an allegation as intended by that clause of BLP. Hence, err on the side of caution. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:28, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Anythingyouwant: ArbCom restrictions ≠ WP:3RR. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:35, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Anythingyouwant: At great cost to the project, BLP is often used as a weapon by self-appointed righteous Knights of the Order of BLP Protectors—editors who like (or need) to see themselves as the only good editors in the room. Neutrality looks like bias to those who fail to recognize their own bias, and that's a stone cold fact. Whether you are such a knight is really beside the point, as there has to be one set of rules for everybody. BLP cannot trump CONSENSUS, it simply does not and cannot work; if somebody challenges your BLP claim, you go to talk and seek consensus, full stop. If somebody repeatedly forces you to talk with spurious challenges of BLP claims, that's an equally serious behavior issue that warrants a harsh response.
If policy does not make all this crystal clear, we have identified the root of much unnecessary conflict in BLP areas. As I've said before, if CONSENSUS and behavior policy are not enough to protect article content, en-wiki fails and we all go home. I don't rule out that possibility. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:42, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Anythingyouwant: I submit that this BLP question, and most BLP questions, are far more nuanced than your chimpanzee example. And that's the problem, too many editors are unwilling or unable to see the nuance, and every BLP question is a chimpanzee example. They self-appoint as the only editors able to see with that amount of clarity, even when opposed by multiple editors with, collectively, many times their experience. That can't work in a project fundamentally based on collaboration. It never has and it never will. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:03, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Anythingyouwant: AE's function is not resolve content disputes. It is to decide whether you violated the ArbCom restrictions. In my opinion you did, I'm sorry if the rules are unclear, but you knew the quicksand was there and chose to walk into it. Again.
I'm done here unless pinged by somebody else. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:22, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

NEVER say "I'm done here".
SPECIFICO's "Your 'evidence' seems to suggest" overstates the case, but their interpretation of the cause-and-effect is at least as likely as Lambden's, and that neutralizes both arguments. I don't know the name of Lambden's logical fallacy, but I know a logical fallacy when I see one. Besides, we are hardly going to instate affirmative action for conservatives, so the argument is pointless. It's also meta to this AE complaint and thus off topic. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:38, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MONGO

I confess I saw the change made by Anythingyouwant, thought it was accurately in line with BLP so I restored it, not paying enough attention to the regs for that page, that stipulate talkpage consensus must be reached beforehand. Recognize also the reverts mentioned do not involve vandalism reverts and the BLP argument is not strong. To me it seems like an issue of ethical good taste more than anything else. While most may feel Anythingyouwant deserves a sanction here, would prefer they be allowed to participate in the talkpage discussion if they would be willing to self impose a 90 day article space editing moratorium. Just seeking a less draconian resolution.--MONGO 18:20, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The push to site ban or indef block this editor has all the makings of a rather draconian resolution. The near threats of yet another arbcom case are not pleasing to read either.--MONGO 14:28, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm appalled that MrX would demand that Masem, an 10 year veteran admin, who was supported 50-1 on his Rfa, and with numerous FAs and GAs under his belt, would be asked to not participate in the resolution of this matter in his capacity as an administrator of this website. I dare say that MrX does some heavy pitching here frequently to AE and while some of those he has brought forth here do deserve penalty, his heavy handed approach here and elsewhere indicates to me that the inability to edit collegially may be as much his problem to work on as those he accuses of the same.--MONGO 20:10, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SPECIFICO

@NeilN: If the sanction is to be a TBAN, why restrict it to Donald Trump? Anythingyouwant's behavior spans the entire American Politics space, and its gone on for many years. I don't think it really should be a temporary sanction, either, but that is typical of the timid approach Admins have taken in recent enforcement. SPECIFICO talk 20:33, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@James J. Lambden: Your "evidence" seems to suggest that Trump-oriented editors (e.g. ones with pin-ups of POTUS on their user pages) tend to violate DS whereas neutral editors, who generally do not violate DS, are repeatedly brought here on specious, undocumented and generally incompetent complaints. SPECIFICO talk 20:49, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Mandruss: Some fallacies should not even be dignified by the name logical. It's just a "one of those". SPECIFICO talk 22:22, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, Admins, but I'm going to repeat something I've said on this page several times before: Anythingyouwant got a TBAN from abortion-related topics after some epic misdeeds in that area. The post-1932 politics has become an extension of that battleground. Many pro-life advocates will do anything necessary to sustain Republican leadership that will appoint pro-life Supreme Court justices. Anythingyouwant's behavior in American Politics articles should already have been deemed a violation of his TBAN, but the connection may not be within the domain of mere Admins. I'm sure if we take this to Arbcom, this user would likely be blocked indefinitely from WP. There needs to be decisive action to stop the corrosive misbehavior that has been the core of Anythingyouwant's participation on Wikipedia. A simple AP2 TBAN is required. SPECIFICO talk 13:55, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by James J. Lambden

Here are all cases where 1RR/Consensus Required AP2 complaints were dismissed:

Sept 2016 – Volunteer Marek – Complaining party accused of using enforcement to "game" the system and topic banned
Oct 2016 – Anythingyouwant – good faith reverts as potential BLP problems
Oct 2016 – My very best wishes – No action taken
Feb 2017 – SPECIFICO - Questionable conduct by more than one editor, but no action taken
May 2017 – SPECIFICO - No action taken

Here are all cases where they resulted in sanctions:

Oct 2016 – Ihardlythinkso – banned from the topic of post-1932 politics
Oct 2016 – Anythingyouwant – banned from the topic of post-1932 politics of the United States
Feb 2017 – Thucydides411 – 'blocked for one week for violating the page restrictions
Jul 2017 – Neuwert – blocked for 48 hours
Nov 2017 – Anythingyouwant – placed on 0RR for 1 month on Roy Moore
Nov 2017 – Volunteer Marek – Topic ban from Donald Trump and interaction ban for filer
Dec 2017 – DHeyward – topic banned for 1 month from articles about living and recently deceased American politicians

In only one case was a complaint against an editor seemingly advocating the conservative position dismissed, and it involved them removing an unsubstantiated accusation of "child rape" from the lede. Note the editors who restored "child rape" faced no consequences.

In only one case was an editor seemingly advocating the liberal position sanctioned, and the complaining party was sanctioned with an interaction ban.

To editors familiar with the topic the pattern is evident.

I have listed only violations reported to AE. Past decisions and comments have had a chilling effect, and editors in the topic know to avoid disciplinary noticeboards as, depending on the violator, a complaint will at best be dismissed and at worst result in their own sanction.

Here are two examples I've encountered just in the last month of the same 1RR/Consensus Required violation which were not sanctioned: diff1, diff2. If there a question as to whether a complaint would have resulted in action note that one of the violators (who I repeat violated the same policy) feels confident enough to comment here recommending a full topic ban.

To quote Justice Judy's decision in Brawthen, a domestic violence case:

"There are women who worked very hard for decades to create a system where domestic violence is serious business, where people respond to it in a serious way, and when [it's] used as a weapon and not a shield it's offensive to the system."

Unfortunately I have seen more examples of Discretionary Sanctions and enforcement as a "weapon" against editors than a "shield" to protect articles. I expect this will continue absent significant reform.

Note regarding the list above: I have omitted complaints dismissed due to conspicuous policy misinterpretation by the filer. If I have excluded 1RR/Consensus Required complaints with a reasonable policy basis please link them and I will amend the list. James J. Lambden (talk) 20:41, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Beyond My Ken

Reading down the page, I found Only in death's comment (in favor of an indef Trump topic ban) persuasive at first, since I think he's quite correct that a short Trump topic ban for AYW isn't going to make much of a difference. Then I read Bishonen's comment (3 month indef block), and that seemed to make even more sense, although I (personally) would still doubt that AYW would change their combative way of editing (on full display here) even then, but a few months in the desert is better than allowing AYW to continue practicing their editing style on other American-politics related topics -- which they would certainly do. Therefore, I would suggest to NeilN that Bishonen's suggestion is the better choice, if we're to have any hope of encouraging AYW to change. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:15, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Atsme

This case moved forward quickly so I apologize for getting here so late. My perception of AYW's attempt to add the denial to the lede was that it was a GF edit based on NPOV and BLP. AYW did go to the article TP in an attempt to discuss the inclusion. I don't think irritating another editor at a TP justifies a block or TB. My interest in this case is more focused on the NPOV argument which I see as being inseparable from BLP. Prior to this case being filed, I posted a tough question on the TP of TonyBallioni hoping to get some thoughtful input. The diff I used in that same discussion included AYW's edit as an example. While waiting for more answers at Tony's, I discovered this case had been filed. I respect MrX, and realize that our Trump-related articles are highly controversial. There also appears to be an expanding left-right divide in RL which may explain why we're seeing mention of party affiliations in the discussion above. Political persuasions should not be an issue if everyone is truly focused on NPOV, but I also understand why some may think political persuasion may create an inadvertent COI, especially if one has a strong loyalty to or hatred for a particular party. I can also see that the results here are not leaning in AYW's favor, but I'm going to ask for leniency anyway. Editor retention is becoming/has been an issue, and as Legacypac pointed out above, we may be eliminating too many editors whose opposing views actually help WP achieve compliance with neutrality and balance. I hope it's a worthy enough point for admins to ponder. ^{Atsme📞📧} 20:18, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Shock Brigade Harvester Boris

A quick look at AYW's contributions shows they have interests beyond politics. Their contributions in those areas don't appear to be problematic. An indefinite topic ban from American politics as proposed by User:NeilN, rather than a block, would let them continue to contribute where their activity isn't causing problems.

Admittedly there's a chance that they could cause problems in related areas that fall outside American politics (e.g., British politics or something). But I think it's worth trying a broadly-construed, indefinite AP topic ban instead of a block. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 16:53, 21 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Anythingyouwant

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Given the past sanctions, I am disinclined to overlook "Wikipedia is the biggest propaganda outfit on Earth, thanks to folks like you" and recommend another Donald Trump topic ban, three months in length. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:29, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Anythingyouwant: I don't think you understand user talk pages are in no way free-for-all zones and not subject to civility restrictions. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:05, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Anythingyouwant: Yes, editors can be sanctioned for user talk page posts. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:20, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@MrX: How exactly does the one diff no. 1 violate the article restrictions? Sandstein 14:41, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ugh. Why do we need a novel-length discussion for this? Anyway. BLP is not an excuse, because whether the contested content is needed here is primarily a matter of editorial judment and therefore a legitimate content dispute. But I am generally not a fan of page restrictions, because they tend to create more problems than they solve. Because of this, I normally expect whoever places page restrictions to enforce them themselves. I'll therefore take no action here and have no opinion about whether anybody else should. Sandstein 21:31, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with NeilN that a three month Donald Trump topic ban is the way to go. Sandstein, diff no. 1 appears to violate the "consensus required" restriction. --regentspark (comment) 14:48, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Anythingyouwant's first addition of this material, prior to the diff identified above. While I am 100% sympathetic towards the BLP argument raised here (including the allegation in the lede but not the denial), this is clearly against page restrictions. --Masem (t) 14:53, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't think the material added qualifies for the WP:3RRNO exemptions; the only one we have for BLP is removing obviously poorly or unsourced libelous material. I think Anythingyouwant is fully correct there's a massive BLP problem here, but its not one that can be managed by edit warring. --Masem (t) 15:02, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - Not that I'm aware of. While BLP is very important and particularly in this case, you still can't edit over it. We're not talking poorly/unsourced material (the allegations and his denial are well sourced), so it immediately fails the 3RRNO allowances. I know what you're trying to ask to do, you're hitting a massive wall, but that's not a reason to edit war against clear page restrictions, even if you think you are doing it in the name of BLP. --Masem (t) 15:07, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Only adding a comment that I am concerned about @Only in death:'s suggestion that they don't expect AYW's opinion to change on Trump in 3 months so we should enforce something harder. The last thing we are going to do is block/ban people strictly because they express a certain opinion/POV. It's the combination of expressing that opinion and editing in a disruptive manner to maintain that opinion/POV that causes a problem and where we need blocks. Mechanically, we need to enforce something here against AYW's edits - they were clearly not appropriate and since they have been warned/acted against before, they should know better. But again, those were for actions, not for having a specific POV. Very much particularly at an article like Trump, we should have editors with multiple viewpoints to keep watch to make sure BLP/NPOV is upheld, which may create friction which is why there are the discretionary sanctions on that page to caution editors. --Masem (t) 06:07, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- We have dozens of conservative leaning editors like JFG, FallingGravity, PackMecEng, Springee, Markbassett, Dervorguilla, and many others who manage to help balance content without constantly bending the rules to their favor and attacking other editors. There are definitely editors that are more liberal leaning editors with a strong POV that have repeated been brought to AN/AE for behavior, shall we do the same to them? (obviously not). Given that AYW's concern here is 100% valid under BLP (and as I see from the talk page, has been discussed and implemented), just not an allowance for editing warring, this seems more pleading to eliminate a louder voice in opposition to the majority's POV from the discussion, only readily supported in the fact that AYW has engaged in some disruptive behavior in the past. I know what that looks like, where you are challenging the prevailing editors' broad POV and end up having those editors try to silence you, and I see the same patterns here. We have something we can take action on (exceeding 0RR on contested material), but it's nowhere close to the disruption that a lengthy topic ban or block is required, particularly as they jumped to the talk page to start discussion. --Masem (t) 14:09, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Given the WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT attitude and continued jibes on display here, I will be implementing a three month topic ban on Donald Trump, broadly construed, unless there is further admin input. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:35, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I won't straight-up oppose your plans there, Neil, but I find Anythingyouwant's arguments against a topic ban logical. He questions "whether the type of sanction, i.e. a topic ban, is the proper type of sanction for something I said at my user talk. A proper sanction for calling one of the anointed ones a POV-pusher at my user talk can take some form other than a topic ban, no?" Yes. A three-month-block would be a better fit (proposed block length adjusted for AYWs long history of battleground editing, and for the "one of the anointed ones" crap). Bishonen | talk 20:08, 19 April 2018 (UTC).[reply]
I think that if this were only the editing restriction violation, I'd argue for leniency; while the disputed text probably doesn't reach the standard of the exemptions in 3RRNO, I do think the is a BLP problem and the exemption was claimed in good faith; that they are also participating in the TP is also good. The aspersions and general battleground attitude on display is deeply unimpressive, though. I agree with others that a narrow topic ban is not the answer here and I'd be inclined towards a shorter block (a month? six weeks?). GoldenRing (talk) 11:03, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
What would be the rationale for the block? If we are giving a three-month block out just for some extraordinarily mild incivility on his own talk page, then that's ludicrous. The community lets far more incivil comments than that go by with nothing done about them every day of the year. Blocks should not be used to punish, they should be to prevent disruption. If the block rationale would be for the problem editing in a single area, then a topic ban is appropriate. As the disruption is in one area, then a targeted topic ban is both less destructive and would solve the problem of disruptive editing. I'd suggest it be to American politics articles, rather than specifically ones about Donald Trump, though, and I'd suggest 3 months would be the absolute minimum length. Fish+Karate 11:16, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Bishonen, GoldenRing, and Fish and karate: When considering your comments I had another look at Anythingyouwant's editing history. On January 20th they were given a one month topic ban from Donald Trump. On January 27th they took a break from editing. They returned on April 13th and went back to Donald Trump a couple days after. On the 19th they started the attacks that landed them here. This indicates they will simply wait until their topic ban expires and then continue their disruption. When reading their "discretionary sanctions applies to user talk pages? really??" comments above, I was struck how similar this was to their behavior outlined in the last case here. Same gaming, same wikilawyering. I don't think a short block will work here based on their Jan-Apr editing history but an indefinite topic ban might. Let them edit in other areas to show they can contribute non-disruptively and have them appeal rather than having the ban simply expire. I'd go with a blanket American Politics ban. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:46, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be good with that. The ban formulation should preferably contain explicit advice about how constructive editing in other areas, as well as in the sister projects, would make an appeal more likely to be viewed favorably. Bishonen | talk 14:35, 20 April 2018 (UTC).[reply]
I think that’s a better option then immediately jumping to a full block. Fish+Karate 17:44, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@NeilN: I'm still reluctant to see someone indefinitely topic-banned for a BLP-defending edit + attitude. While it seems generally agreed that the edit in question didn't rise to the level of 3RRNO, an indef tban still seems a very harsh outcome to me. But, as ever, you can act unilaterally here and I wouldn't think it completely outside your discretion to do so. Just not what I would do. GoldenRing (talk) 12:48, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No More Mr Nice Guy

Blocked for one week for edit-warring. Sandstein 18:01, 21 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning No More Mr Nice Guy

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Onceinawhile (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 21:13, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: No More Mr Nice Guy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles#Discretionary_sanctions_motion_(2011) and Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel_articles_3#Sanctions_available

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

00:24, 10 April 2018 removes Q2 from an article FAQ that he had been heavily involved in building out three years previously. No discussion raised on talk.
17:59, 13 April 2018 Removes again, again with no talk discussion
17:04, 15 April 2018 Removes again, whilst talk discussion ongoing
14:49, 17 April 2018 Removes again, whilst talk discussion ongoing
16:53, 20 April 2018 Removes again, whilst talk discussion ongoing

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

21:39, 15 May 2017 72-hour ARBPIA-related block

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Previously blocked under ARBPIA

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

These five edits do not cross 1RR, but they constitute a clear and consistent edit-war. Given this editor's long term experience, I would have hoped they could have relied on discussion instead of trying to force through a new status quo.
Whilst these edits were on a talk-page FAQ, and not an article, the general restriction clearly refers to "any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict", not just "any article".

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[8]

Discussion concerning No More Mr Nice Guy

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by No More Mr Nice Guy

There is an explicit talk page consensus that the material should be removed. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mandatory_Palestine#1RR_on_FAQ where 5 editors support removal and only 3 think the material should be included. Note that my reverts "whilst talk discussion ongoing" were per ONUS and CONS to the version the talk page consensus supported.

Please note that Onceinawhile (who has also reverted twice) has not reported editors who support his position who also made multiple reverts while discussion was ongoing (some against consensus), including one who didn't even bother to participate in the discussion. This report is an obvious BATTLEGROUND attempt after failing to gain consensus. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:45, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sandstein, it's not "whatever consensus your preferred verson might once have enjoyed", it's a !vote in bold right in the discussion I linked to which I assume you haven't even looked at? Also, was I edit warring with myself? Anyhow, I self-reverted my last edit before you posted, for whatever that's worth. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:55, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Pluto2012, who commented below, made 3 reverts in 5 days to the same page this complaint is about, despite an explicit 5:3 consensus against the material he inserted, in a discussion he participated in. I think Onceinawhile forgot to report him? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 05:29, 21 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Just to address the above diffs in full, the complete order of things is as follows:

I removed some material from a sub page of a talk page (might be important to remember we're not talking about a main page mainspace article here). Nobdy had edited this page in over 6 months. This might technically be a revert, but it is for all intents and purposes a BOLD edit.
Almost 4 days later, Onceinawhile, the filer of this report, reverts claiming "no consensus for removal". [9]
I reverted him. [10]
He opens a discussion (claiming a 1RR violation) on the talk page [11].
Within a day a 3:1 consensus emerges against including the material.
Pluto shows up and reverts, despite said consensus, with a cryptic ES [12]
Some back and forth reverts occur (including by me), including another one by Onceinawhile, the guy who filed this report, again, despite the talk page discussion and consensus.
Some talk page discussion occurs over a couple of days, it is now 4:3 against including.
Pluto again reverts against consensus, with an irrelevant ES [13]
Again some back and forth reverts (including mine).
Some more talk page discussion over 3 days, consensus is now 5:3 against including.
Pluto again reverts against consensus.
I revert. Onceinawhile reports (but only me), I self-revert.

I would also point out that a week block for (at worst) 5 reverts over 10 days to a sub page of a talk page seems excessive and punitive rather than preventative. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 15:10, 21 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by 98.159.212.219

@Sandstein: do you also think that a 1 week block would be appropriate for all editors in the edit war? By my count, the OP of this request had reverted twice, Pluto2012 reverted three times, and TheGrecefulSlick twice. Is there any special reason you are singling out No more Mister nice guy, other than your personal history with him? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.159.212.219 (talk) 18:40, 20 April 2018‎ (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Pluto2012

NMMGG is not on wikipedia to participate (constructively) to the development of an encyclopedy. His activity here is limited to bring controversial and useless issues again and again. Here, we are talking about the FAQ and discussions pages that was introduced 3 years ago to summarize discussions. What for ?
But this behaviour has come back recurrently on this board in particular regarding his behaviour against Nishidani but more globally about his general behaviour to import here the Arab/Palestinian-Israeli conflict. And that is not compensated by NPoV given his uncapacity to follow Wikipedia:Writing for the opponent.
A ban of 1 week blocade is not enough. He should just be topic-banned. Pluto2012 (talk) 02:13, 21 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@NMMGG: I made 3 reverts. You are reported because you made 5. But you and I would have made 10 that it would not change anything. We are not on wikipedia to play with these rules (that I just don't know or follow) and I do not count the reverts that I make. You are not here to participate to a projet and develop and encyclopedia. You are here to defend a point of view and in truth you fight for this. And you also bring huge frustration and agressivty. All this is not compatible with Wikipedia and you shoule be topic banned, if not just banned. For the good of the project and for your good. Pluto2012 (talk) 05:48, 21 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Icewhiz

NMNNG was acting inline with talk page consensus - in the discussion concurrent to these edits, more users objected to inclusion than supported this highly POVish faq item in Wikipedia's voice. Per ONUS, the burden is on those who wish to include the material and this has clearly not been met. I would like to point out the following edit summary by Pluto2012, made when TP consensus was clearly not inline with inclusion, diff with the following edit summary: Let's open an ARBCOM case once for all..Icewhiz (talk) 15:35, 21 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Lorstaking

No More Mr Nice Guy is correct with his reverts that the edits had no consensus. Read WP:BRD, this is not a sanctionable conduct. Issue is moot because NMMNG has made a self-revert. Lorstaking (talk) 16:22, 21 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning No More Mr Nice Guy

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Yep, pretty straightforward editwarring here. "The others are editing against consensus" is not an excuse for editwarring, and if you keep on reverting many different editors, then that is a pretty good indication that whatever consensus your preferred verson might once have enjoyed isn't so solid any more. I think a one-week block would be appropriate. Sandstein 21:51, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Consensus is now 5:3 against including" makes no sense. Consensus is not a vote. This situation, together with many people reverting, is rather indicative of no consensus - which doesn't matter anyway because edit-warring is never justifiable except in rare cases not at issue here, see WP:3RRNO. Closing with a one-week block. Sandstein 18:00, 21 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

יניב הורון

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning יניב הורון

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Huldra (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:35, 21 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: יניב הורון (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles, specifically

Editors counseled

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

17:19, 17 April 2018 Insert serious allegation about links to the Munich massacre..without any source

23:03, 21 April 2018 Reintroduce a source which has clearly false information ("Until 1996, nobody called Rachel’s Tomb a mosque")

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

13 March 2018 blocked under Arbitration enforcement
13 April 2018 blocked under Arbitration enforcement

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Previously blocked under Arbitration enforcement, see above

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

IMO, both of the above edits are quite outrageous...this editor is, IMO, not ready for the ARBPIA area. I suggest a topic ban from the IP area for ...quite a while. Huldra (talk) 23:35, 21 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified Huldra (talk) 23:39, 21 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion concerning יניב הורון

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by יניב הורון

In this case I haven't broken any rule of Wikipedia. There's no edit-warring in the first place! Here I wanted to show that Kamal Nasser was targeted as part of Israel's Operation Wrath of God, which is a fact, but making sure that his involvement in the Munich massacre is an allegation. You reverted my edit anyway, and I didn't insist. Regarding this edit, the JP source explains that Rachel's tomb wasn't called "Bilal bin Rabah mosque" before 1996. You may not like my edits, you could revert them or discuss in talk page, but you have no right to censor me because I disagree with you in an article or two. I mean, are you serious?--יניב הורון (talk) 23:57, 21 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@MShabazz: with all due respect, I don't think you are the best person to talk about POV-pushing. I'm no less biased than you, Huldra or many others, but I always try to edit based on reliable sources and encyclopedic value. You can't silence someone because they disagree with your political opinions. In any case, my edits are far less POV than most editors in ARBPIA. But if you don't like them, you are more than welcome to discuss them in the talk pages. So far I haven't enganged with you in virtually any single article or talk page (including this one!), so it seems strange that your are complaining about my way of editing right now. I guess for some people is easier to ask for censorship than debate using actual arguments.--יניב הורון (talk) 00:38, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@MShabazz: ~~Maybe it's because of some natural loathing for "Jewboys", but~~ I didn't break 1RR. As you can see here, I was only reverting content removed by SantiLak, which I didn't write in the first place. It was there long before I started to edit the article. And I gave my reasons in the talk page, where you are more than welcome to engange in a civilized discussion instead of harrasing people at AE.--יניב הורון (talk) 00:51, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@MShabazz: Nice try, but everybody can see that in this case, I was not restoring content that I added, but content that was already there before SantiLak came and removed it. I can disprove your accusation very easily. My first edit in Wikipedia was on February 27, right? Well, this version of February 15 mentions exactly the same thing that SantiLak removed in April: "The European Union has been criticized for funding Israeli political non-governmental organisations (NGOs) that attempt to undermine..." Therefore, it's not my content that I was restoring.--יניב הורון (talk) 01:14, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@MPS1992: I edit in a wide range of topics, mainly Jewish-related. As you can see from the discussion above, I did nothing wrong. I didn't break 1RR, and I was not engaged in edit-warring. Huldra's arguments to censor me are laughable. It's true that in the past I've been blocked for violating the third bullet in ARBPIA articles ("If an edit is reverted by another editor, its original author may not restore it within 24 hours of the revert"), but I was already punished for that and I've learned my lesson. Now I'm familiar with that rule. In the case mentioned by MShabazz, I was NOT restoring content added by myself. In other words, I was not the "original author" of that content. You can check by yourself.--יניב הורון (talk) 02:26, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@MShabazz: Oh, no. Don't change rules now. The ARBPIA bullet clearly says "If an edit is reverted by another editor, its original author may not restore it within 24 hours of the revert." It doesn't say ANYTHING about "by restoring somebody else's material, an editor is taking responsibility for it." [therefore becoming its "original author"] I'm not the original author, therefore I'm allowed to make a second revert after 24 hours have passed since MY last revert (not SantiLak's revert). This is my first revert, this is my second revert after 24 hours (not 18 hours, since you don't count from other user's revert, unless I was the original author of that content). Also take a look at WP:Civility next time you feel the urge to swear on Wikipedia.--יניב הורון (talk) 02:59, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I was referring to a previous discussion involving MShabazz where he complained about "Jewboys" in Wikipedia. I'm an Israeli Jew, so I hope that won't be a problem for him. Nevertheless, it has nothing to do with our present discussion so I'll just scratch it out.--יניב הורון (talk) 01:53, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

My mistake. I thought it was MShabazz who complained about "Jewboys". It was a stupid comment on my part and I apologize for that.--יניב הורון (talk) 02:00, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I was investigating who is MShabazz, the same way he was checking my edits with a magnifying glass to censor me. I never had a discussion with him before, but I found out that he was removed from his position as administrator a few years ago. Is that right? Nevertheless, the "Jewboy" comment wasn't from him, since he is Jewish himself. Apparently some disgusting racist told him "the Jewboy has chased out the nigger." Again, I apologize to him for the misunderstanding. In that case he was the victim.--יניב הורון (talk) 02:13, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Seraphimblade:: Just to clarify, my previous sanctions were because I was not familiarized with ARBPIA rules. I didn't have experience in Wikipedia before. The first sanction was because I made this edit before I had an extended-confirmed user (while the article wasn't protected at the time, hence my confusion). The second one was because I didn't understand the third bullet of ARBPIA, which has nothing to do with 1RR: "If an edit is reverted by another editor, its original author may not restore it within 24 hours of the revert." Nevertheless, when I understood the rule, I accepted the sanction and didn't repeat the violation again. However, in this case, Huldra and MShabazz have no reason to accuse me of violating any rule. I didn't break 1RR nor the third bullet, and I WAS NOT engaged in edit-warring (as you can see here: one single half-revert; here: one single revert; and here: two reverts, precisely because the other user broke the third bullet). How can you call this "edit-warring" or "being disruptive"? I ask you to be fair instead of considering me "problematic" just because other editors -whose political agenda I happen to disagree with- want to have less competitors in a sensitive topic. Please, check my contributions and you will see I'm not here to disrupt anything. All my contributions (mainly in Jewish and Israeli-related articles) are significant and meaningful, based on reliable sources. I understand if other editors disagree with them, and they are welcome to revert me and discuss in talk pages, but that's not a reason to ban me.--יניב הורון (talk) 18:08, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Sandstein:: I'm an Israeli Jew (and proud of it), of course I don't have any "natural loathing" against my own people. On the contrary, I was referring to a comment made by Shabazz in 2015 where he said literally (excuse my language) "the Jewboy has chased out the nigger." After that I tried to apologize because I thought Shabazz was the victim of such a disgusting insult, but later Shabazz himself admitted that HE was the author of the racist slur, apparently because he was tired of being "harrassed" by someone of Jewish extraction. In any case, it has nothing to do with our present discussion, except that it shows that those who accuse me of having a "biased" and "POV agenda" are the least suited to speak about such matters. The irony is that I've never had a previous discussion with Shabazz in any talk page. But for some reason he wants to get rid of me based on spurious accusations. In any case, I invite him to have a civilized discussion to achieve consensus instead of resorting to deplorable tactics to censor editors who don't share his views.--יניב הורון (talk) 21:06, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Huon:: Please, explain me how exactly I broke 1RR. I made the second revert 24 hours after my first revert, not within the 24 hours period.--יניב הורון (talk) 21:11, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Huon:: What is "gaming the system"? Am I allowed to make another revert after 24 hours passed? Yes or no? Tell me the rules so I'll be more careful next time. I thought 1RR only counts for more than one revert made within a 24 hours period. Thanks.--יניב הורון (talk) 21:18, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Huon: Oh, now I understand what you mean. Of course it wasn't my intention to sit around with an atomic clock to revert someone 24 hours and 1 second after my last revert. I don't usually do that. The reason why I made this second revert was because I felt that SantiLak broke the third bullet of ARBPIA (which is not 1RR, my mistake). Besides, I left him a message on the talk page that he didn't answer so far, explaining why I reverted him back. I did it for a specific reason, in a specific situation. And I did it only once. Check all the edits and you'll see I didn't make more than two reverts in that article, which is not so terrible. But maybe I shouldn't have rushed to revert him so fast. Next time I'll try to wait 30 hours or so to avoid breaking the spirit of 1RR, which is to avoid edit-warring. Nevertheless, to ask for a block or topic ban seems a little bit excesive and out of proportion, don't you think? Specially when there's a doubt if the other user actually broke a specific rule (like the third ARBPIA bullet).--יניב הורון (talk) 22:39, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@GoldenRing: Even though technically I didn't brake a rule, I understand that perhaps I have been over aggressive here. I'll try to make less reverts against other users and participate in talk pages more.--יניב הורון (talk) 14:23, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Zero0000: Calm down. I've made almost 1,400 edits so far, and I barely started. Sometimes I make mistakes. WP:Newbies, WP:Civility--יניב הורון (talk) 10:18, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Malik Shabazz

יניב הורון is misinformed when they argue that they have done no wrong because they haven't been edit-warring. They have been engaged in POV-pushing, which is far worse. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 00:25, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As an example of their POV-pushing, consider this edit, which parrots Benjamin Netanyahu's anti-NGO slurs but doesn't demonstrate being here to build an encyclopedia. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 00:36, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking of edit-warring, they made that revert and restored the POV-pushing 24 hours and two minutes after they inserted it, and only 18 hours after it was removed by another editor. I believe that is both an attempt to game the system and a 1RR violation. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 00:43, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't care whether you have a "natural loathing" toward Jews, you violated WP:ARBPIA#General 1RR restriction, which says an editor can't restore material they added within 24 hours of another editor removing it. You added the material at 21:33 on 18 April and restored it at 21:35 on 19 April. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 01:06, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I did write that. I was being harassed on Wikipedia by a Jewish editor (who has since been perma-blocked for harassing other editors) and receiving threatening e-mails from other editors and from Wikipedia trolls. I lashed out at him because I was frustrated that he was harassing me and engaging in what I consider to be racist taunting and nobody at WP:ANI seemed to give a fuck. I was the subject of an emergency de-sysopping and I resigned my position about the same time ArbCom voted to remove the bit. I have since been offered the bit again without an RfA, but I declined.

To get back to the matter at hand, evidently יניב הורון can't read very well, because they clearly violated the 1RR restriction that applies to ARBPIA articles, which requires a 24-hour minimum before an editor can restore their material to an article. And by restoring somebody else's material, an editor is taking responsibility for it, so they can't later say "But I wasn't the original authot". Look at the two diffs above. In a space of 18 hours, יניב הורון reverted another editor's removal of material they had added (restored) to the article. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:52, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Number 57, the old "But he started it" defense is meaningless when an editor breaks a bright-line rule like 1RR. As a sysop, you ought to know better. Please don't insult my intellectual or further embarrass yourself by continuing that twisted "logic". — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 07:12, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

More smoke and mirrors from Number 57. Are you also arguing that יניב הורון wasn't gaming the system by making the same edit 24 hours and two minutes apart? Your defense of the indefensible here is very disappointing; you never struck me as a partisan editor before. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 12:22, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I was referring to the 1RR violation and system-gaming that I wrote about, and which you appeared to be responding to when you started your section addressing me. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 12:47, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry that I misunderstood your message because I hadn't read it as carefully as I should have. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 12:56, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, now we know of two instances this week in which יניב הורון waited 24 hours and two minutes to make their revert. Is somebody going to do something about this obvious gaming? — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 23:35, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oh god, how I wish editors would stop ~~bleating~~ repeating "Jerusalem Post! Jerusalem Post! as if it were a mantra. The source cited is a goddamn editorial column, not a JPost article, as any of you would know if you actually read the damn thing, and editorial columns are not reliable sources for facts. Sheesh! — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:30, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@GoldenRing: Icewhiz has provided the edits to which I was referring. I thought somebody else had cited another article where יניב הורון had done the same thing. Because I'm not able to find one, I've stricken my comment about two instances. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 01:13, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MPS1992

Did the user against whom enforcement is requested really just write this, or do I need new spectacles?!? MPS1992 (talk) 01:45, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

But what you linked is a lengthy polemic from someone called User:JordanGero, who was blocked for harassment more than a year ago, not anything that Malik Shabazz said at all? MPS1992 (talk) 01:57, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. But. You also wrote above My first edit in Wikipedia was on February 27. This year, 2018. But you are angrily linking to things about "Jewboys" that were said in August 2015. Something's not right here. MPS1992 (talk) 02:06, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

My opinion is that you need to spend less time "investigating" other editors, and indeed less time in the topic area altogether. MPS1992 (talk) 02:19, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by TheGracefulSlick

I would have settled for the one-week block, but this editor's behavior here and on the topic overall gives me no confidence that it will magically make them change their ways. Their talk page alone is a good indication of how "collaborative" this editor is in this sensitive topic area. Since יניב הורון cannot keep their biases in check, cannot adhere to editing restrictions, and cannot edit collaboratively, they are not needed or wanted in the topic area; it is a priviledge they simply have demonstrated they do not deserve.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 03:43, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

יניב הורון you say two blocks like it isn't a big deal yet you have only been here for two months. Considering I could have reported you during this discussion and you would have been blocked, this is not a good trend. I see about five warnings for edit warring, and it is all related to the I/P topic area.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 14:04, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Number 57

@MShabazz: If you go back to the start of that dispute, the first edit in this chain was by Onceinawhile to remove the source; it was then restored by Icewhiz, then removed by Huldra, then restored again by יניב הורון. If יניב הורון has broken the spirit of the rules, then so has Huldra. However neither has broken the rules as worded, so I don't see this as actionable. Number 5 7 05:25, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@MShabazz: Unfortunately I think your judgement has been very poor here, as are your comments aimed at myself. The rule is that you can't reinstate your own edit. If it were meant that you can't reinstate someone else's edit, then it would be worded that way. The original rule was worded this way ("In addition, editors are required to obtain consensus through discussion before restoring a reverted edit."), but was amended to the current version (in spite of my objections). It's nothing to do with "he started it", it's a simple case that יניב הורון hasn't broken 1RR as he's only reverted once. Number 5 7 07:50, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@MShabazz: Are we even talking about the same thing here? My comments are regarding יניב הורון's behaviour at Rachel's Tomb (hence the diffs above), where he reverted Huldra after less than a couple of hours. Number 5 7 12:41, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@MShabazz: Apologies, I thought the 1RR accusation was regarding the edits at Rachel's Tomb. I agree that leaving it a few minutes after 24 hours to make another edit is gaming the rules. Number 5 7 12:52, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Icewhiz

Huldra raises two issues. Both should not be actionable:

In the first instance Yaniv added information to a non-BLP (died in 1973) that " All three men had made Israel's Operation Wrath of God target list for their participation in the massacre of eleven members of the 1972 Israeli Olympic team in Munich." This should have been sourced (e.g. [14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21]) - however this is not a BLP - and the information itself is correct (and was subsequently re-added by Pluto2012 with a source).
The second instance, is a WP:KETTLE situation - as Huldra herself reverted once. Yaniv did a single revert. Huldra misrepresents this this source (written by an expert, published in a RS) - since as Huldra should know we do not use article (or book) titles for sourcing (as they are often sensationalist) - we use the actual contents. The article in question does not deny previous Muslim use - in fact - it actually lists quite a bit of previous Muslim use. It does contend that previous Muslim use was also identified to Rachel and that the identification with Bilal ibn Rabah is very recent - from 1996 - and implausible (as this figure is known to be buried in Damascus). None of the sources presented on the talk-page state otherwise for this structure built by Jews (in the 19th century, and previously in the 17th). In any event - a single revert should not be actionable.Icewhiz (talk) 05:40, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

RE Israel–European Union relations - Yaniv actually did not break 1RR there. SantiLak broke 1RR (the "original authorship provision") with Revision as of 11:12, 18 April 2018 and Revision as of 03:36, 19 April 2018 (so authoring (or reverting) - and then a revert 17 hours later). Yaniv asked SantiLak to self revert - user talk page post at Santilak. Yaniv probably should have reported SantiLak to AE or AW on his failure to self-revert (as the violation was quite blatant) - instead he reverted them after 24 hours were up - which was not correct - however this is an inexperienced editor.Icewhiz (talk) 07:21, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Number 57: The revert at 24hrs+2minutes was wrong by Yaniv - but the user he was reverting had violated 1RR (17 hours) and was asked to self revert - Yaniv should've held off from reverting and taken it to the appropriate noticeboard (where it was actionable).Icewhiz (talk) 12:59, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@SantiLak: 1RR in ARBPIA is a bit different. See "consensus"_provision_modified "If an edit is reverted by another editor, its original author may not restore it within 24 hours" (it is also in the edit notice). So even if your original edit was not a revert (could be argued), you were the original author of the non-revert edit.Icewhiz (talk) 21:13, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Huon:, Yaniv was correct in saying the other editor broke the "original author clause" of ARBPIA's 1rr. If this were standard 1rr, he possibly (depends what one sees as a revert) would have been incorrect.Icewhiz (talk) 21:16, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@GoldenRing: - in the diff sequence below, the original author was not Yaniv, but Santilak. This is the sequence:Icewhiz (talk) 15:30, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Revision as of 11:12, 18 April 2018 - Santilak changes the lead - he's the original author of the edit.
Revision as of 21:33, 18 April 2018 - Yaniv reverts - he's not the original author of the revert (as this is a plain undo, the original author are the authors prior to 18 April).
Revision as of 03:36, 19 April 2018 - Santilak reverts - this is a violation of the original author clause - this is 4:03 after Yaniv's revert (well short of 24) which is where the timer starts per the recent clarification (it is also within 17 hours of the initial authorship - making the clarification moot).
Santilak TP Revision as of 17:29, 19 April 2018 - Yaniv asks for a self-revert.
Revision as of 21:35, 19 April 2018 - Yaniv reverts (he shouldn't have. He should've gone to AE) - 24 hours + 2 minutes after his prior revert.Icewhiz (talk) 15:30, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@GoldenRing: My reading of the Jan 2018 clarification on the "original author clause" Each editor is limited to one revert per page per 24 hours on any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict. If an edit is reverted by another editor, its original author may not restore it within 24 hours of the first revert made to their edit. is that it applies, once (just the first time it is reverted), to the original author. It does not apply to the revert of the original author (on which normal 1RR would apply). Either way - I agree Yaniv shouldn't have reverted, he should've taken it to AE following a declined request to self revert.Icewhiz (talk) 15:59, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Pluto2012

MPS1992 and Malik Shabazz's comments are full of sense. This editor arrived 2 months ago and already "investigated" on the past of another contributor. His global behaviour is agressive and suspicious. He games the system in reverting after 24 hours and... 2 minutes. He fails Wikipedia:Here to build an encyclopedia. He should be topic-banned of the articles related to the I-P conflict. Pluto2012 (talk) 05:54, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

OtterAM's suggestion is contradicted by Solomon's wiseness... "They are all bad. Let's just send them back to their disputes." In other words he defends the idea to go on with the bad climate generated by some people who are wp:nothere rather than supporting those who would like to have the chance to develop articles and/or who are "fed up" to keep extinguishing fires. And he dares to compare other contributors to one who after 2 months, has been warned 5 times, blocked 2 times, and who has just been trapped 2 times in gaming the system in reverting after 24 hours and 2 minutes. What do you play for OtterAM ? WP or something else ? Pluto2012 (talk) 06:17, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by tritomex

Nothing shown here by Huldra, justifies sanctions against יניב הורון In fact I do not see why Huldra sees Jerusalem Post article as unreliable, nor I see any proves (sources) that the claim sourced with JP [22] is falls. In fact I found many additional WP:RSN that states that the identification of that place as Bilal ibn Rabah mosque dates from 1996. This dosent mean that the place was not considered a place of worship, by Jews, Christians and Muslims as well for centuries. As in the case of all questions that could be related to Arab-Israeli conflict, there is a lot of bias here and very little substantial from editors who could be seen as uniinvolved.Tritomex (talk) 12:39, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by 73.95.138.207

Clearly a WP:NOTHERE and engaging in blatant edit-warring with a battleground mindset. Look at the following edits [23][24][25][26]the first four in rapid succession on random articles with no other common denominator other than to be disruptive toward the editor named Agustin6.

Add to this that this editor has already been blocked TWICE and warned multiple times for edit-warring in his short time here. Then it doesn't seem SO odd to include the circumstantial evidence that this editor jumped right into the mix with a clear understanding of how wikipedia works. Then ADD to that edit summaries like these two [27][28] which are battleground in tone and certainly WP:FORUM. Suggest ban to give editor time out to think about his actions and a topic ban. Would offer something more but at work and had to rush this as it was. Gotta go.73.95.138.207 (talk) 16:57, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SantiLak

@Icewhiz: With all due respect, I don't think you understand 1RR. You claimed I violated 1RR and יניב הורון didn't because I made a content edit and then made 1 revert yet they just made 2 reverts. That's a textbook case of 1RR by יניב הורון. I didn't make 2 reverts and there is no such thing as the "the original authorship provision." I should have reported them for edit warrring and violating 1RR but I didn't because I felt like following BRD. Like another user said, it's a clear case of WP:NOTHERE, a topic ban is very appropriate. - SantiLak (talk) 21:03, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by OtterAM

As a number of people have pointed out יניב הורון has not actually broken any rules with the two edits that have been brought to attention here. I don't think the edits stand out as being egregious either. For example, the Jerusalem Post -- an 85 year old English-language Jewish publication in Israel, and is a well known source. Thus, it's not clear that the information would be suspect for the second edit that Huldra mentioned.

This topic is full of editors who, in my opinion, like to over wiki-overlitigate the smallest offense. The accusing editors here have certainly done their share of controversial edits. @Seraphimblade: I don't think it would be fair to topic-ban this one editor as you suggested below because I don't see qualitative difference between his style of editing and the style of editing of other long-standing editors on this topical area.

Regarding these statements, why can't we just return the pages to their consensus version. Then, if people really care so much about these two controversies, start appropriate request-for-comments sections to decide which version to include. OtterAM (talk) 03:10, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by My very best wishes

This is a relatively new and inexperienced user who was close to violating 1RR on one of pages (it is not unusual for such contributors to follow rules very literally, although yes, that might be the "gaming"). I do not think that merits a topic ban. Editing in ARBPIA area is extremely difficult. I also agree with Sandstein. As a note of order, there is currently a thread about the same user on the ANI [29]. Not sure how you usually treat such cases. Both complaints, i.e on the ANI and that one, look to me as an attempt to exclude an "opponent" who has been involved in various content disputes. My very best wishes (talk) 16:25, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by E.M.Gregory

This discussion is a shinning example of one of the biggest problems with Wikipedia: experienced editors with an OWN attitude and political POV who pounce on new editors who disagree with them politically - and vote them off the island, or chase them off with persistent aggression. To my sorrow, I have encountered Huldra [30] before, most memorably at the nightmarish Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Murder of Georgios Tsibouktzakis; she is WP:NOTHERE]]. I am less well acquainted with (יניב הורו) [31], but I do know that the WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude taken by too many editors in the I/P area makes Wikipedia a nasty, brutish place. Promising editors become disgusted and leave, or - if we stay - shy away from the politically fraught arenas where good editors are most needed. Editors who are sufficiently aggressive can and do slant articles in highly POV ways, simply by making editing unpleasant for those they disagree with. And many good editors like Sandstein spend enormous amounts of time on discussions that, like this one, are driven by intense POV animus. I do see that legal sanctions serve a purpose. But also that they are a tool too often used merely to "win." End of rant.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:46, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Zero0000

This edit made just hours ago is illustrative of how useless this editor is. With the claim of "restoring source", he reinserted a dead link. Obviously he never even clicked on it, or if he did click he didn't care that nothing was there. If he had gone to the trouble of locating an archived version, like I did before I deleted the link, he would have seen that it doesn't even mention the topic of the article. Nor does it mention any of the matters raised in the paragraph to which he attached the dead link. I shouldn't have to clean up after someone with such a blasé attitude to article integrity. Zero^talk 23:25, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Shrike

The diff presented by Zero0000 had nothing to do with WP:ARBPIA.So I don't understand how its relevant.--Shrike (talk) 15:24, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning יניב הורון

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

This is gaming the system and I'd be inclined to do a one week block, especially after the last four day block. Also, the behavior on this request itself doesn't give me much confidence that this block will do much, so I'd be amenable to a topic ban in addition too. —SpacemanSpiff 03:05, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Since there seems to be confusion on what's what, my opinion/recommendation above is based on the statement from MShabazz above, not the original complaint. —SpacemanSpiff 14:23, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Huldra: Please fill out the sanctions and awareness sections of your request correctly. Sandstein 05:34, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. As reported this does not look actionable to me. Diff 2 is nothing more than a content dispute if all that's alleged to be wrong with this diff is that it introduces false information. Whether that is so and whether the sourcing is adequate is a matter for talk page discussion. As to diff 1, certainly a source would be preferable here per WP:V, but it's not a BLP, and there's not been an edit war or anything like that about the content, so I think a {{cn}} tag would have been a better reaction than this report. The report borders on the frivolous. However, @יניב הורון: please explain what you meant with your comment above that you have a "a natural loathing for 'Jewboys'". Sandstein 20:43, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I can see the 1RR gaming point made below, but I'm ambivalent about whether it merits action in and of itself. This would require a more comprehensive review of the whole editing situation than I, for one, am interested in undertaking. Sandstein 11:40, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This user has been here less than two months, has been blocked twice already and still doesn't seem to understand why their behaviour is problematic. A block is indicated, but I think we really need a topic ban here. Black Kite (talk) 16:23, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Black Kite, though I think a block might be just punitive if a topic ban is applied. But this editor clearly is disruptive in that topic area as shown by the previous sanctions, and I think that indicates they need to be removed from it. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 16:53, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, sorry if I wasn't clear - a topic ban would negate the necessity for a block. Black Kite (talk) 20:25, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

יניב הורון broke 1RR after incorrectly notifying someone else of breaking 1RR on that page. That's a few days ago, but I don't see how that isn't edit-warring and deliberately and knowingly violating restrictions. Huon (talk) 21:05, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I am technically wrong by two minutes. Clearly gaming the system. Huon (talk) 21:13, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Icewhiz:, thanks for pointing out the specific provision that יניב הורון apparently meant to say the other editor violated; they only referred to 1RR both in the edit summary and on SantiLak's talk page, which doesn't have that clause. That said, 1RR (in either incarnation) clearly isn't meant to have editors sitting around with stopwatches to wait 24 hours and two minutes to revert instead of 23 hours and 58 minutes. This is adherence to the wording of the instructions while ignoring the spirit. Huon (talk) 22:21, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@MShabazz: Could you please diff the two 24-hour-plus-two-minutes 1RRs for me? I've had a look through their contribs but can't see it today. On that note, this is not exactly encouraging - I make it 28 straightforward reverts in the past 24 hours. Some of them are fair enough, some are simply using the undo tool to disagree with people. I think this user could do with substantial experience editing other, less controversial, topics before they return to this one.
I'd also like to take the chance to agree with MShabazz's interpretation of the "consensus" provision of ARBPIA3, which states: If an edit is reverted by another editor, its original author may not restore it within 24 hours. This is clearly saying that if you're reverted, you can't reinstate that material for 24 hours; questions of who originally inserted the reverted material back in the mists of time are irrelevant wikilawyering. Here "original author" clearly means "the person who made the edit which was reverted," as opposed to anyone else who is free to re-insert the material before the 24 hours is up (subject to everything else, of course). GoldenRing (talk) 13:40, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@יניב הורון: The problem is that you did break the rules. You made this edit at 22:33, 18 April. It was reverted at 04:36, 19 April. The 24-hour rule of ARBPIA3, which I quoted above, means you can't reinstate that edit until 04:36, 20 April, but you did so at 22:35, 19 April. You have argued the rule doesn't apply because you weren't the "original author" of the material; I have explained to you the plain meaning of the rule above and yes, it does apply to this situation. GoldenRing (talk) 15:17, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Icewhiz: AFAICT, what you've shown is that both of them violated the 24-hour rule. I'm not sure what's so hard about this; if someone reverts your edit, don't reinstate it for at least 24 hours after the revert. GoldenRing (talk) 15:47, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Icewhiz: Although the motion you link says "enacted" the text hasn't made it into the case page. I'll take up with the (other) clerks why this is. Thanks for the pointer. GoldenRing (talk) 16:12, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by No More Mr Nice Guy

Appeal declined. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 17:12, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: No More Mr Nice Guy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Icewhiz (talk) 05:30, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: Blocked for one week for edit-warring - this AE thread.

Administrator imposing the sanction: Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: notified

Statement by No More Mr Nice Guy

I was blocked for a week for edit warring on a talk page following this report. I made 5 edits over a 10 day period to a talk page. The first edit was not a revert. I self-reverted the last one as soon as I saw the report (no courtesy of a warning, as per the filer's usual MO with me). I couldn't have possibly been edit warring alone yet I am the only one whose behavior was scrutinized (including the filer of the report who edited against consensus). A week block for something like this is obviously punitive and not preventative. This is not the first time Sandstein closes an AE I'm involved in unilaterally and in less than 24 hours, with an unusually harsh punishment not supported by any other admins. Check out my talk page where I predicted something like this will probably happen before Sandstein posted on the request. I know AE admins have wide discretion but this is ridiculous. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 02:31, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I just went through the last 10 pages of archives, representing over 30 AE cases and appeals.

Not a single case of an admin unilaterally closing a request (this is the 3rd time Sandstein has done this to me)
One case was closed in less than 24 hours - an obvious topic ban violation closed after two admins discussed (this is the second time Sandstein has done this to me).
In many cases the actions of the filer and other editors were taken into consideration, particularly when it was obvious the person reported was reacting to other editors. I did not get that privilege, but was told to file a report after being blocked (I can't, and by the time I could it will be stale).
I'll go out on a limb and say that 4 reverts in a week+ to a talk page have probably never resulted in sanctions before. I'm willing to look at more archives to substantiate that, if necessary.

Could someone do me the courtesy and explain why I deserve this special and unusual treatment? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:00, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@NeilN: sorry, I phrased that poorly. Should have included "to editors with more than 60 edits". Are you honestly saying these cases are comparable to mine? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:27, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@NeilN: (should probably be copied otherwise someone might accuse me of doing something improper) I understand admins are free to act unilaterally. That is not the issue here. I'm going to again, go out on a limb here, and assume the times you were sanctioning editors unilaterally it was for a grave violation that required immediate action and not, say, 4 reverts on a talk page in over a week, one of which was immediately self-reverted when the AE was filed, signalling there will be no further disruption? Have you acted unilaterally against the same editor 3 separate times? Perhaps each of the things I listed happens every once in a while, but all of them together from the same admin? Come on. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:00, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sandstein

I recommend that this appeal be declined. The evidence submitted in the AE request clearly indicated edit-warring by No More Mr Nice Guy. What No More Mr Nice Guy submits on appeal is unconvincing. Any misconduct by others (see WP:NOTTHEM), or the presence or absence of consensus for any specific content, does not justify edit-warring. If others also need to be sanctioned, separate requests concerning them can be filed, but as submitted there was not enough evidence to justify action against others in my view. While No More Mr Nice Guy did self-revert themselves, they did so only after the AE report was filed and they did not acknowledge that they had in fact acted inappropriately. I therefore consider the block to be necessary to prevent the reoccurrence of such conduct. Sandstein 07:56, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I also recommend that reviewing admins consider sanctioning Pluto2012 for their comments here in the light of WP:ASPERSIONS. Sandstein 07:57, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Icewhiz

Per NMMNG's request, I copied this appeal over from his talk page. I would like to note that in Talk:Mandatory Palestine#1RR on FAQ at the time of NMMNG's revert (to remove the disputed section) there was no consensus to include the disputed FAQ section (in terms of "raw head count" - more editors opposed than supported inclusion - there were serious arguments to exclude (both due to misrepresenting sources and not presenting aspects of the issue, and due to this being simply off-topic)) - WP:ONUS had not been met. Some of the supporters of the inclusion of the section, were convinced of some deficiencies - diff in the wording. NMMNG self-reverted after the AE started, he was also less aggressive (ignoring his initial challenged that led to a discussion/semi-RfC (opened here - probably should have been a full fledged RfC and without the pings)) than Pluto2012 who reverted thrice with WP:POINTy edit summaries - let's start by being able to real what it is all about rv - account who is not there to contribue a constructive way Let's open an ARBCOM case once for all.. The AE case was closed 21 hours after it was opened.Icewhiz (talk) 05:47, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Pluto2012

NMMNG, ie no more Mr Nice Guy..., is no more on this project to contribute constructively to the development of an encyclopaedia. All his interactions are fights [sic] dedicated to prove WP would be biaised, anti-Israeli and not to say antisemite.

We know his past. His bitterness is not curable. And this has lasted for years now. Most of time he joins "forces" to others to lead their fight on baseless issues. All this generates a bad climate in importing the I/P conflict on WP.

Sandstein fits his analysis to the facts and only them with a zero tolerance's policy towards NMMNG. That's why he blocked NMMNG one week for edit warring. But that edit war is a symptom and not the cause. NMMNG would just need to be topic-banned, which would avoid the contributors to endlessly have to come and extinguish the fires that he and his mates start. Pluto2012 (talk) 06:07, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Sandstein. I assume that in WP:ASSERTION you refer to the 5th topic and to my accusations against NMMNG without supplying evidence.

Here is what I have posted in 2012 on NMMNG's talk page :

Hi NMMNG,
I have the feeling -but I may be wrong- that you shifted more and more radical. I think that this is due to the strong involvment in conroversial and difficult topic where no censensus is achievable due to the misunderstand, the fears and/or the bad faith of people. For your pleasure and for you own, I think that it may be profitable sometimes to take some distance and/or to focus on other topics.
My two cents.
Rgds, Pluto2012 (talk).

Since that time, anybody can just scroll down the page of NMMNG and sees in which situations he was involved :

In July 2013, he was forbiden to post Arbitration Requests.
A few weeks after, he writes I'm sorry, but I'm so thoroughly disgusted with this place right now that I have no interest in wasting time trying to improve the unimprovable. I know that for people like you that means encountering an automatic majority that won't let you put anything that doesn't fit their political agenda in articles
2 years later he decides to focus on Nishidani and as another contributor points out : First you attacked Nishidani by labeling him as an antisemite. He even wrote a page about the antisemitism on wikipedia. It was finaly deleted but it was hard to convince him.
And a few time later : (...) Although to be fair, watching those anti-Israel guys (and really, other than maybe Huldra none of them can be reasonably suspected of caring for the Palestinians more than they hate Israel, or in some cases Jews) obsess over socks was somewhat amusing. Amazing how they never find socks with whom they agree politically. What are the odds?
In october 2015 : In a couple of weeks I will be so thoroughly disgusted that they let the kind of behavior he (-> ie Nishidani) displays freely go on here, that I'll leave. It's just not worth it.
The same month in 2015 he was already involved in the FAQ of this famous article for which he was blocked 1 week yesterday by Sandstein and advised to cool down : I saw on Talk:Mandatory_Palestine#Edits_to_the_FAQ that you have been calling User:Oncenawhile all kinds of names. Please be civil and correct at all times. Just stick to the issue at hand and don't play on the person. You can read up about this at WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. Debresser (talk) 06:40, 15 October 2015 (UTC). Please, read the remaining.[reply]
Please read these exchanges 2 weeks later.
...

He would have been topic-banned at the time, he would be much more happy and wikipedia a much more pleasant place.

Sandstein, "La loi, rien que la Loi, toute la Loi" has some limitations.

Pluto2012 (talk) 12:06, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by No More Mr Nice Guy

Result of the appeal by No More Mr Nice Guy

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I would decline this appeal. Being "right" (and I don't mean to take a position on whether they were or not) is not an exemption from the edit-warring policy. I also think Pluto2012 is right on the edge of a block for ASPERSIONS. GoldenRing (talk) 13:43, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Decline The appeal is wholly unconvincing. Admins can and do unilaterally impose restrictions to curb disruptive editing in an area covered by discretionary sanctions. The block length is more than appropriate for a second AE block for edit warring. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:26, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@No More Mr Nice Guy: No special treatment as your assertions are easily shown as incorrect. Even the last archive shows admins acting unilaterally dealing with two requests. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 18:31, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Edit count has little to do with it. Admins are free to act unilaterally and often do without a request being made. Have a look at WP:DSLOG and see how many editors have been sanctioned without a request being made at WP:AE. I know I've sanctioned editors with a couple thousand edits to tens of thousands of edits without seeking input from other admins. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:47, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Decline per my colleagues above. One week for a second AE block is fine, and Sandstein acted reasonably. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:32, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Agree per the above, decline. There's only 3 days left on the block now anyway. Fish+Karate 08:11, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A. Katechis Mpourtoulis

A. Katechis Mpourtoulis indefinitely banned from all edits related to the Balkans. GoldenRing (talk) 12:56, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning A. Katechis Mpourtoulis

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: SarekOfVulcan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:37, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: A. Katechis Mpourtoulis (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Macedonia#Standard discretionary sanctions :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

The editor has been engaging in edit warring on multiple articles under the purview of ARBMAC.

2018-03-12 Initial change to place Macedonia in ancient Greece
1. 2018-04-05 same change
2. 2018-04-22 same change
2018-03-14 Initial change to make Macendonia Greek
1. 2018-04-05 same change
2. 2018-04-22 same change

Similar patterns hold on Alexander I of Macedon, Seleucus I Nicator, Alexander II of Macedon, and others

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 2018-04-05

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I'm not sure what solution is best here.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:A._Katechis_Mpourtoulis&diff=837919221&oldid=834439028

Discussion concerning A. Katechis Mpourtoulis

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by A. Katechis Mpourtoulis

Statement by (username)

Result concerning A. Katechis Mpourtoulis

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I think this is fairly clear-cut - ARBMAC topic ban required. Black Kite (talk) 22:17, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Black Kite: I started writing something here arguing for limited scope or duration - but never mind. Looking back through this user's contributions, all I can say is that SarekOfVulcan was remarkably restrained in their selection of evidence - this edit pretty much sums up the attitude. GoldenRing (talk) 12:40, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

AmYisroelChai

Topic-banned for one month from everything related to Donald Trump or Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections. Sandstein 19:21, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning AmYisroelChai

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: MrX (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:34, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: AmYisroelChai (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:ARBAPDS :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

April 24, 2018 Inserts material that makes a controversial claim about a living person in Wikipedia's voice.
April 24, 2018 I reverted the bold edit because it's unattributed and unrelated to the article subject. (It also violates WP:BLP and WP:OR.)
April 24, 2018 Reverts my edit, thus reinserting the challenged material in violation fo the editing restriction.
April 24, 2018 Refuses to self-revert

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.
Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on February 5, 2018

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

If anyone else agrees that this edit is a WP:BLP violation, please revert it.- Mr X 🖋 17:34, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The edit in question is original research for two reasons: 1) The source make no mention of the election interference by Russia, and 2) the source publication date predates the public revelation on the interference by several months.

The edit is a BLP violation because it strongly implies criminal wrongdoing in the context of an article about illegal activity, especially by omitting the attribution.- Mr X 🖋 19:05, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[32]

Discussion concerning AmYisroelChai

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by AmYisroelChai

Statement by SPECIFICO

A TBAN is warranted. I don't see any reason to fine tune this to Trump-related rather than using the AP2 Post-1932 American Politics definition. It's just forcing us to parse what's Trump-related or what's motivated by the same impulse that's led to Trump-related disruption. For nearly all the disruptive editors we've seen at AE, the origin of their behavior is generally not Trump. It's some broader POV that includes Trump or his standing. SPECIFICO talk 19:33, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Galobtter

I'd remind that this is the same person who's said ""wikipedia is not a conspiracy site for anti trump wackos" + a BLP violation about Clinton collusion, among other excellent edits to talk:Donald Trump and elsewhere on talk pages. Do recommend AP2 tban perhaps longer than 1 month as the person clearly cannot edit here without being a problem, complaining about everyone having an anti-trump agenda. Galobtter (pingó mió) 19:49, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

James J. Lambden The article is about Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_elections. Is there any evidence that that visit is about Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections. Nobody is saying that Reuters "would be deemed unacceptable". That is a straw man. If he does not understand the notice MrX gave, then he has a WP:COMPETENCY problem, in addition to his everything is anti-trump POV and agenda (and resultant basically attacks on other editors as being "anti trump wackos"). Galobtter (pingó mió) 20:03, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The source, in fact, does not say the meetings were secret. The word secret has extra meaning and saying someone had secret meetings with the Russians and putting it under an article called Timeline_of_Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_elections carries a pretty heavy implication entirely unsupported by the source. Galobtter (pingó mió) 20:14, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by James J. Lambden

The claim itself is not controversial. The only possible BLP violation is that the source attributes the claim while we do not. But scrolling to the next section I see the following:

"Between April and November 2016, there are at least 18 further exchanges by telephone and email between Russian officials and the Trump team."

The Reuters source attributes that claim to unnamed "current and former U.S. officials" yet our article states it as fact. Poor articles result from inconsistent standards which may explain the state of this one.

AmYisroelChai clearly violated the consensus required provision but judging from this talk page conversation he was unfamiliar with it. The confusing claim of a BLP violation didn't help. Is there evidence elsewhere he understood this restriction? @Sandstein: Is a 3 month (or 1 month) topic ban typical for a first-time consensus-required violation? I will have to search the archives.

Regarding WP:POINT, the editor's frustration that Reuters would be deemed unacceptable in an article that cites Raw Story and The Huffington Post is, I would argue, understandable. James J. Lambden (talk) 19:54, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Galobtter: I was not arguing it was relevant, I was arguing it was not a BLP violation. I can cite several instances of experienced editors misunderstanding one Discretionary Sanctions provision or another. It is hardly evidence of incompetence.

Secret: confidential, top secret, classified, undisclosed, unknown. I could find no public announcement of the meeting so although I would not have, his use of the word is defensible. James J. Lambden (talk) 20:15, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MelanieN

(Commenting here because I am WP:INVOLVED at the article.) First, it is true this does not belong in the article. The source provides no evidence, or even a suggestion, that a visit to Russia by Obama's CIA director had anything at all to do with the subject of Russian interference in the election. For all we know it may be routine for the CIA director to meet with counterparts in Russia. Including it in this article implies that it was related to the election, which would be a very serious allegation if true. We need two sources to make a serious allegation against a living person, and we only have one.

Then there’s the problem with the source. Please note that the source for this information is not Reuters (a reliable source); it is Interfax (which we would not generally regard as a reliable source). Reuters is not citing a product of its own reporting, it is merely repeating something that Interfax said. Maybe we could use it since Interfax attributed the information to a specific source, but we would have to name the individual who is being quoted (certainly not Wikipedia's voice). IMO AmYisroelChai did not notice this problem with the sourcing (can’t blame him; several discussants here have made the same error) and was acting in what he believed was good faith. The consensus-required issue remains, but it seems to me that a one-off incident like this could be handled by education. --MelanieN (talk) 21:04, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning AmYisroelChai

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

It's not obvious that this addition is a BLP violation or OR, given that it is sourced to a reliable source. Except, perhaps, by implication, in that it is placed into a list of events related to Russian election interference, but is in fact completely unrelated to that topic. Particularly in view of this, we seem to be looking at a WP:POINT issue. The reported conduct is also clearly a violation of the page restriction. I think that a topic ban from Donald Trump (including Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections) for 3 months or so is appropriate. Sandstein 18:04, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Clear-cut violation of consensus required restriction. I lean towards more moderate sanctions for first-time offense which doesn't involve completely inappropriate content. I recommend a 72 hour block or one month ban on the topics Sandstein suggests above. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:31, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with NeilN. GoldenRing (talk) 20:47, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A site block is unnecessary, blocks are not punitive. Ambivalent on a topic ban, but given it's the first "offence", I'd personally be inclined to go with a warning. Fish+Karate 11:46, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Fish and karate: I'd argue that a block would show that the restrictions need to be strictly followed and help to prevent future violations. Their warning was being asked to self-revert - they refused. I'd also rather not set a precedent that other editors can point to. Had this landed on my talk page instead of being brought here, I would have little hesitation in blocking for 72 hours after the way the refusal was worded. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:11, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@NeilN: Probably boils down to a difference in opinion between us on the value of short-term blocks as a means to improve an editor's attitude (they usually get more pissed off, not less). I'm not going to complain if the consensus is that a block is appropriate. Fish+Karate 13:43, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Closing with a one-month topic ban based on the discussion above. Sandstein 19:19, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

ApolloCarmb

ApolloCarmb is now fully apprised of the editing restrictions in this area. Any future violations will likely result in a block or topic ban. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 00:47, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning ApolloCarmb

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Icewhiz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 13:03, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: ApolloCarmb (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 3#General Prohibition :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Latest revision as of 12:40, 25 April 2018 reverted strike out of !vote from ARBPIA AfD
Revision as of 07:26, 25 April 2018 ARBPIA AfD

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

Revision as of 15:06, 22 April 2018 Edit warring block

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

notified

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Was specifically warned of the 500/30 rule - [33]. In addition @Drmies: warned the user regarding some of the particulars of the edits in ARBPIA - [34][35]. Note - this partially involved the article up for AfD. Furthermore - I believe there may be a wider NOTTHERE/BATTLEGROUND issue here that revolves around different topic areas (Syria, Catalonia/Spain, and I might be missing out on a few others - the editing history and talk page history for this 12 day account is quite instructive.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: notified

Discussion concerning ApolloCarmb

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by ApolloCarmb

Since I have been warned by User:Drmies I have not made a single edit to any Arab-Israeli conflict related articles. I am prohibited from editing those articles (for now because I am not an "Extended Conifrmed User") but nowhere in the document cited does it say I am prevented from voting in AFD's relating to them. If I am prevented from doing so I will revert my vote. However considering I am fairly certain that is not the case there is really nothing to be enforced as I am fairly sure I have not broken any rules. ApolloCarmb (talk) 13:07, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by AlexEng

To be quite fair to the user, sanctions are pretty difficult to understand, especially for newcomers. I consider myself relatively competent, but I had to have sanctions explained to me by a seasoned editor so I wouldn't make a mistake. In this case, it looks like the user simply missed the part where the prohibition extends to AfDs. I think Drmies is right in his approach here. AlexEng^(TALK) 00:10, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning ApolloCarmb

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

@ApolloCarmb: Do not revert other editors in this area as you're likely to be wrong. In this case, the motion states "Editors who are not eligible to be extended-confirmed may use the Talk: namespace to post constructive comments and make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive. Talk pages where disruption occurs may be managed by any of the above methods. This exception does not apply to other internal project discussions such as AfDs, WikiProjects, noticeboard discussions, etc." --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:19, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Without clicking through the diffs, if the account is accurate, and all that is at stake here is an AfD comment which the author said they'd revert if need be, I see no reason to come down hard. Thanks Neil, Drmies (talk) 14:28, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

GizzyCatBella

GizzyCatBella blocked 72 hours --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:47, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning GizzyCatBella

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Icewhiz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 12:46, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: GizzyCatBella (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBEE, page level article restrictions - 1RR (+original author as in ARBPIA)

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Revision as of 09:51, 23 April 2018 Original authorship by GCB.
Revision as of 16:40, 25 April 2018 - reverted by other user.
Revision as of 23:51, 25 April 2018 - revert1 - which in itself (coming after 7 hours from the revert), is a violation of If an edit is reverted by another editor, its original author may not restore it within 24 hours of the revert..
Revision as of 07:17, 26 April 2018 - revert2 by other user.
Latest revision as of 11:56, 26 April 2018 - revert2 - this is withing 12 hours of revert1, violating 1RR.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Revision as of 10:41, 19 February 2018

Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

In short - we have two violations here - a violation of the "original authorship provision" with revert1, and a violation of normal 1RR with revert2 in relation to revert1.

IPs from this range have admitted to being GCB. You can see this in - admission at SPI, User talk:2A01:110F:4505:DC00:1DAD:B65D:E100:9863, User talk:Slatersteven#Hi, yes, and [36].

Please also see - Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/GizzyCatBella. The IP in question is quite dynamic (at times - a few changes a day), however the prefix is consnant - searching for 2a01 (or an even tighter (longer) range) on the page in question go back to (probably) GCB.

There are additional issues with editing here - including long term edit warring and talk-page behaviour.. I'd like to note that revert2 returns a newspaper article written by an author that appears to mainly write WP:FRINGE softcover books (a self-evident list of book jackets may be seen here). User has also added Ewa Kurek as s reference which is questionable as a source both due to the publisher, and due to "Kurek is more subtle than [Holocaust denier] David Irving,” Holocaust scholar Berel Lang told the Forward. “She doesn’t deny the genocide but argues rather that the Jews were complicit with the Nazis in organizing the wartime ghetto system."Why Was Historian Who Blames Jews For Complicity with Nazis Considered For Humanitarian Prize?, Forward and Poland Stops Ceremony for Author Accused of Anti-Semitism, NY Times (AP reprint).

Also -Revision as of 06:54, 25 April 2018, reverted as BLP vio here, and reinstated - Revision as of 23:26, 25 April 2018 is a BLP issue as well as being contradicted by sources provided (see Talk:Leszek Pietrzak#BLP violation - lecturing position at KUL) - however BLP DS alert was placed on their page following the addition after the revert.

Added per response below - GCB (under a shifting IP) has been performing quite a few reverts on Collaboration in German-occupied Poland since protection was lifted, also against talk-page consensus (and in the face of reverts by multiple users) - as may be evident in the history of the page. Reported above are 2 separation violations - on the 25th the "original authorship" clause was violated in addition to the 1RR on the 26th.Icewhiz (talk) 14:22, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As for knowing the IP is GCB - this has been evolving. Following their admission at SPI perhaps more are aware - initially this was not obvious, and they had filed, without identifying themselves, an edit warring report, ANI ANI2, as well as responding thus (on ANI) when their identity was questioned.Icewhiz (talk) 14:28, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

notified GCB, and IP1, IP2, and IP3.

Discussion concerning GizzyCatBella

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by GizzyCatBella

Genuine - I self-reverted myself [37] I was confused by the date 25th versus 26th. I thought in my mind its day difference (24h), didn't add hours. My apologies, I will pay attention to that.
PS --> All other complaints are tendentious. It's a dispute over the edited topic of which filing user is heavily envolved with. It appears that filing editor is trying to win the argument by getting opposite side sanctioned. He could have messaged me requesting the self-revert, I would undoubtedly relapse myself
PS2 - I have no access to my account until the end of April when I get back home, that's why IP edits. All editors who are involved are aware who I'm. Thanks 2A01:110F:4505:DC00:7535:CCA0:C86A:F3C4 (talk) 14:07, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Statement by slatersteven

I have already warned her about the DS restrictions [[38]], moreover the material she added is still being disputed by multiple edds [[39]].Slatersteven (talk) 14:26, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning GizzyCatBella

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I will be blocking the GizzyCatBella account for 72 hours. The block is for the person and so applies to IPs. Counting hours until you can revert is not on, especially as you seemed to indicate acceptance of other editors' concerns and made no attempt to address them. [40] --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:40, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

K.e.coffman

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning K.e.coffman

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: PackMecEng (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 14:12, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: K.e.coffman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBAPDS :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

01:07, April 12, 2018 Material boldly added by BullRangifer
08:16, April 12, 2018 Material challenged by me
19:17, April 24, 2018 Restored material claiming rough consensus

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 28 December 2017.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

At last count it was about 6 for the purposed text and 5 against shown by votes at the end of this section. An RFC or spin off article was suggested in the discussions but had not happened yet. The page is under 1RR and consensus required here. PackMecEng (talk) 14:12, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Sandstein: I think you might be reading it backwards. BullRangifer added it on the 12th, I reverted same day, and K.e.coffman restored it on the 24th. PackMecEng (talk) 16:32, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Sandstein:Sorry about that, first time filing here. Fixed. PackMecEng (talk) 16:37, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Masem: I had brought up the BLP aspect in a few places on that mess of a talk page, hard to find anything on there at this point. Others in the votes had brought up the NPOV aspects as well. I am surprised that you would say given the arguments it was enough of a consensus for restoration or at least enough for it to be uncontroversial enough for the "If in doubt, don't make the edit" portion. PackMecEng (talk) 00:44, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Objective3000: I will note I brought up it two separate times on the talk page [41] & [42] as well as talked with them on their talk page after they reinserted the information. I think it would be fair to say I made a fair effort to go though my options before coming here. Also yes 12 days of active discussion both ways, which is still going on, does not seem to be a consensus situation. If I am in the wrong in this situation I apologies, I have never wanted to bring someone here, nor have I ever in the past, and did try in good faith to avoid it. PackMecEng (talk) 01:55, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[43]

Discussion concerning K.e.coffman

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by K.e.coffman

I made the edit nearly two weeks after the initial edit/revert, with plenty of discussion in between. One of the opposes that PME lists hinged on not including the pre-presidency material, which has been rectified: [44], so I don't believe it should be included in PME's tally. One ivote was unclear & remains uncounted, but I interpreted it as leaning "support".

I would be happy to self-revert if deemed appropriate. I also note that PME did not include in the filing the discussion he and I had on my Talk page, where I offered, for example, to clarify the uncounted vote: #Presidency of Donald Trump. It's possible that I acted prematurely since, after a lull, the discussion continued today with two additional opinions: one oppose & one support, but I did see rough consensus when I made the edit. I also would have appreciated letting me respond to the last PME's message on my TP vs seeing this report filed.

In general, no other editor has objected to the edit, either on my TP or on the article's TP, where the discussion instead moved onto what heading the section should have: Better heading, with comments such as: ...we have never seen a politician like Trump, etc. Still, I apologise for the disruption this may have caused and I can self-revert if needed. K.e.coffman (talk) 22:35, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (SPECIFICO)

This complaint is battleground nonsense. There was evident consensus at the talk page after extensive discussion, and K.e.coffman has had not a hint of aggressive or POV editing now or ever in his contributions to American Politics. There's no RfC at play here, and the insinuation of a mooted RfC is a further battleground blur of the facts. SPECIFICO talk 19:31, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Objective3000

Seems minor with what we're used to these days. (Although it's amazing what you can get used to.) Suggest KEC self-rvt and the filer withdraw the complaint. O3000 (talk) 00:17, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Masem. No action. O3000 (talk) 00:39, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

PackMecEng, we need AE, IMHO. But, there was a twelve day gap with discussion. You don’t call Homeland Security if your neighbor’s dog pisses on your petunias. I think you had better options in this case. Your point was made. Drop it as it now looks like a content dispute, before the focus turns on you. Just my opinion and sorry if I’m talking out of turn. O3000 (talk) 01:30, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by BullRangifer

Since that content has SINCE been subjected to radical alterations to bring it into line with the complaints of those who at first opposed it, we now have a situation where, through the normal process of collaborative editing (by editors who hold opposing POV), the content is compliant with a clear consensus; most of the opposition is satisfied.

It would now make no sense to undo content which is largely satisfactory. Let's just close this thread and move on.

Let's not destroy what has been fixed. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 00:30, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, User:Masem. A wise solution. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 00:35, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Politrukki, I'm not sure where the OR objection is coming from. That's pretty offensive. I too would not "believe that objection to be policy-based." And don't try to make my admission of an error into more than it was. The discussion tended to focus on Trump himself, and we lost focus about which article we were on, which is only about his presidency. When you brought that back into focus, I immediately responded positively and removed those portions which were clearly from his candidacy and before, even though it all clearly affects his presidency. "From this perspective, lying is a feature, not a bug, of Trump's campaign and presidency,"^[1] and he has not become more honest after becoming president. So don't portray my response in a bad light. Admitting an error and correcting it is not a weakness, but a strength. Don't punish me for responding positively to your concern. The current content is without the content you objected to. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 14:37, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Smith, Jeremy Adam (March 24, 2017). "How the Science of "Blue Lies" May Explain Trump's Support". Scientific American. Retrieved March 30, 2017.

User:Politrukki, you are an editor whom I can work with, in spite of some of our POV differences. I really appreciate that. Together we produce better content: "The best content is developed through civil collaboration between editors who hold opposing points of view." Let's continue on this path. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 17:46, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Politrukki

The content currently in the article pretty much reflects my oppose (which was limited to events that predate Trump presidency, I believe K.e.coffman is now retro-actively counting my oppose as full support), but K.e.coffman acted improperly. When K.e.coffman said (23 April) they were going to reinstate the material, I asked them to explain how the content is not original research. I find their dismissal ("I don't believe the objections to be policy-based." [45]) of my policy-based argument unimpressive. Even BullRangifer, who made the proposal, admitted making a mistake: "I got a bit confused and muddled in my thinking there." [46] After BullRangifer's partial (self?)revert, K.e.coffman has not defended their original position that there was no OR involved. Without that detail, it would be fair to say that this is just a content dispute, everybody go home. If K.e.coffman's argument is that none of the objections were policy-based, and hence it was justifiable to revert, such notion must be rejected.

Regardless of whether this enforcement request has merits, it would be wise for K.e.coffman to self-revert, which would allow rebooting the discussion: it is becoming increasingly difficult to say whether the editors are supporting/opposing the original proposal or what is currently in the article. Politrukki (talk) 10:59, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@BullRangifer:, WP:STICKTOSOURCE is a policy. If you use an old source that is exclusively about candidate Trump, you can't use the source to base your hypothesis about President Trump. If the source makes it clear that an observation applies to President Trump, it may be proper to use the source to make a so-called retrospective prediction. If you have better sources that directly support the analysis, use them.
Admitting mistakes is admirable, and I really mean it. You were the only one who admitted their mistake and that's exactly why I mentioned it. Admitting a mistake is only the first step. If you continue to repeat the same mistakes – I can provide examples with diffs, but I would rather use another forum – you should draw your conclusions. Politrukki (talk) 17:30, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning K.e.coffman

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

~~How exactly is this supposed to be a violation by K.e.coffman? Per the diffs, the material was re-added by BullRangifer, not K.e.coffman. Sandstein 16:25, 26 April 2018 (UTC)~~ Right, please add diffs chronologically next time. Waiting on K.e.coffman's statement. Sandstein 16:35, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Eh. I'm of the view that those who mass-post page restrictions should enforce them themselves, particularly if enforcement requires parsing consensus in complicated discussions and, as here, the outcome is not obvious. No action on my part, therefore. Sandstein 19:00, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Unless I'm missing something on the DS and talk page notices that require a formal procedure to determine consensus (like an admin closure), I don't see the re-addition of material by KEC after a week+ of discussion and judging consensus themselves is violating any DS. The closest warning is "If in doubt [there's consensus], don't make the edit." but I would be hard pressed from the discussion on the talk page to express that there wsa a strong doubt that the addition didn't have some consensus to be added; consensus is never going to be 100% !votes for it. I will express a strong concern related to the BLP/NPOV nature of the content that seems to be overlooked in that discussion that would call for a separate discussion elsewhere, but since I wasn't involved in that page in any way, I am judging this AE review that the consensus seems there to support adding it, and no other factors of the DS were violated, so no action seems to be needed. --Masem (t) 00:31, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- @PackMecEng: I'm not saying that there is a clear 100% definite consensus on the talk page discussion. It's still somewhat contentious. But I would not question if an uninvolved admin were to close that in their opinion as having consensus to include; I might disagree with that and argue my BLP/NPOV points atop it, but I certainly can find fully reasonable logic as to determining consensus in that to favor inclusion to be fully within reason. So KEC had reason to presume they got the consensus the DS demanded. Now, were I in KEC's shoes as an involved editors, I'd probably use a bit more caution to not add it based on that consensus, but in the same way, KEC saw it differently, waited to readd after valid discussion, and then hasn't done any DS-violating action since that. Basically, this is like going 51 in a 50 mph zone. Yeah, it's not perfect, but that's the type of leniency that seems fine here, since there's no stricter instructions in the DSes to point to. --Masem (t) 01:54, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

[1] The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.

[2] This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

[Smith_3/24/2017-3] Smith, Jeremy Adam (March 24, 2017). "How the Science of "Blue Lies" May Explain Trump's Support". Scientific American. Retrieved March 30, 2017.

[a]

[b]

[1]

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