User talk:Pmanderson

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Pericles FAC

I see things have been getting a little heated over at the Pericles FAC; I respect your objection, and I'm going to do what I can to address it, but please don't inflame the situation. I don't know if you've ever nominated an article, but it's a pretty stressful process, and while that isn't an excuse to misbehave, or a reason for reviewers not to make valid objections, it is a good reason to avoid antagonizing the nominator. Objecting on the basis of a need for a proofread is fine, but changing that to a strong objection, or slapping a {{cleanup-date}} tag on the article, the latter of which in particular is a bit over the top given the relatively minor nature of the problems with the article, simply isn't productive. Anyway, thanks for participating in the discussion--the article has improved already as a result of your comments--and hopefully we can improve this thing to everyone's satisfaction soon. --Robth^Talk 14:11, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Cyrus the Great

I really don't get why you changed the opening paragraphs to Cyrus the Great. I'm trying to maintain a two paragraph introduction considering the length of the article, yet you seem to disagree. Would you mind explaining, in details please, what was wrong with this introduction:

Cyrus the Great (Old Persian: Kuruš, modern Persian: کوروش, Kourosh; ca. 576 or 590 BC — July 529 BC), also known as Cyrus II of Persia and Cyrus the Elder, was the founder of the Persian Empire under the Achaemenid dynasty. As the ruler of the Persian people in Anshan, he conquered the Medes and unified the two separate Iranian kingdoms.

In the historical Cyrus Cylinder, discovered in the ancient ruins of Nineveh, Cyrus identifies himself as the king of Persia, where he reigned from 559 BC until his death. Under his rule, the empire entered a phase of expansion, eventually gaining dominion over most of Southwest Asia to create the largest nation the world had ever seen.

I'd appreciate it. I could understand changing "ever" to "yet" and maybe even "nation" to "empire," but removing his reign information from the intro (not the first time you've done this) is just bizarre from my point of view. ♠ SG →Talk 21:02, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

---

This is Rich Dengrove, the fellow who contributed to the article on Mephistopheles. You doubted that Michael Psellos had talked about an order of demons called the Misophaes, or Light Haters. You said you wanted either the passage itself or a citation. Being lazy and not being able to read Greek, I will give you the citation of my source, Jeffrey Russell. J.P.Migne, ed., Patrologia Graeca, "On the Work of the Demons," 122.819-876. Also, The "Life of Saint Auxentius," ed. Perikles-Petros Joannou,Démonologie populaire, démonologie critique au XIe siécle: La vie inédite de S. Auxence, par M. Psellos (Wiesbaden, 1971). I would have written the title of the first article in Greek but I am not certain which of the letters below are equivalent. If need be,I will make this citation into a PDF file and send it to you.

Yours,

Rich Dengrove User:RDengrove

Pristina article

I think you failed to realise there is a survey already going on at the top of the page :) I reverted your edit. Feel free to contribute to the debate already started. Thanks, E Asterion ^{u talking to me?} 18:06, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Ooops! You're quicker than I. E Asterion ^{u talking to me?} 18:07, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Pericles

I thought I should inform you that Robth gave Pericles a thorough copy-edit and proof-reading. I also gave it an additional proof-reading. I assumed you may want to check the changes.

I just donot feel well to see the Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Pericles closed without a final comment of you, especially after the debate we had. A debate which actually led to a further improvement of the article (according to my point of view). Thereby, I am obliged to acknowledge that I was unfair towards you and that your critical comments initiated these significant improvements. Whatever is you final stance (object or support), you have my sincere thanks (without any ambiguous wording, I hope, this time).--Yannismarou 18:22, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Presidential terms (March 3 vs. March 4)

Thank you for your helpful input at Talk:List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States. There has been a "March 3 at 11:59 vs. March 4 at noon" controversy on the presidential and congressional articles for too long and I've glad we've been able to assemble the evidence that should resolve the matter. Regards, Newyorkbrad 00:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Misophaes

This is Rich Dengrove on Psellos and his Misophaes. Am I up to finding a copy of Migne's Patrologia Graeca? That's a question. On the other hand, I am up to remembering that User:RDengrove doesn't work and User:Rdengrove does. I could have sworn I tested the link beforehand but I guess I didn't.

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Adminship

Hi. I've been on holiday and didn't see the final result of your adminship nomination. You probably don't want any unsolicited comments, so I won't say anything except that I'm sure your time will come -- soon. Deb 19:31, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I must say, I don't see why anyone should have to thank anyone for being honest. Just go on doing your thing. Deb 20:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Talk:Macedonia (terminology)#Poll

...you know the drill! :-) •NikoSilver• 10:45, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

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Thomas Lee (army captain)

Thanks for the input on this move debate.--Shtove 23:48, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

User:RandyS0725 changes to classics articles

Hi Paul. User:RandyS0725 has been back making many changes to classics articles, etc. as is his right. We had had some concerns some time before about the nature and accuracy of the changes. Have you seen them ? Special:Contributions/RandyS0725. Bests. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc 20:28, 10 September 2006 (UTC) (User talk:Wikiklrsc)

Thanks, Paul, for the kind and helpful reply. I agree that Randy's edits are, for the most part, if not all, in good faith. I will leave the articles as they are with his modifications and change the minor bit when we have a chance. Best Regards. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc 18:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC) (talk)

Hi Paul. Yes, I understand all you said. I will watch as best as I can, as I hope you will. Bests. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc 18:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC) (talk)

Rusty at best. Will look into the Zoe bit and if I can contribute anything reasonable. Bests. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc 19:26, 11 September 2006 (UTC) (talk)

Zoe (Spiritual Life)

This is up for deletion. This could use commentary from someone knowledgable in NT Greek. Robert A.West (Talk) 05:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Sockpuppet?

ROFL. Are you my sockpuppet, or am I yours? ("I am yours, you are mine, you are what you are.") Perhaps we are both sockpuppets of User:Master of Puppets. Robert A.West (Talk) 22:37, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

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WP:NC(GN)

I apologize for spamming your talk page, but since you had contributed in the past to the WP:NC(GN) proposal, which is currently ready for a wider consultation, I thought you might want to give it another look now and, hopefully, suggest some final improvements. Thanks. --Lysy^talk 22:57, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

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Userfication request

Hi,

Request duly fulfilled. :) If you choose to edit the thing, please keep in might the objection that the analogy is not exactly on point, as raised in the debate.

Incidentally, I really did have a girlfriend who lived in Canada. Seriously! :) It's amazing the sort of trash people that one can meet online. ;) Obviously, she's now an ex... but not all of us ugly, pathetic losers who say this are lying. After all, Canada has its share of ugly, pathetic losers for us to date! Best wishes, Xoloz the lovelorn 01:11, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Sept

Thank you for gradually toning down your comment, and sorry for sounding a little harsh in my previous comments. I really don't see why we have to disagree on this. Please read my comment and respond.•NikoSilver• 12:17, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok. I am making an attempt to reasonably understand what your objection for the map is. I sincerely have not understood why you keep calling it 'tendentious' (because that has to be the point, as 'garish' is subjective and even if you believe that, we won't go anywhere discussing it). Care to explain please? I know this tires you but at the same time I know that you strive for making the article better. I am willing to do anything possible to make it NPOV, but I really see not even a hint to nationalistic/irredentist stuff. (keep it in your talk for continuity please). •NikoSilver• 13:13, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I find it tendentious because it harps on the claims of a handful of irredentists. In the template, this is accompanied by a repetition, and so emphasis, of material already in the text of both articles. On the Main Page, it would bring undue emphasis to a deservedly obscure definition of Macedonia. (Your very nice fourfold map, with the caption "if it weren't confusing..." would be much better there.) Septentrionalis 22:21, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I just copied your comment here for continuity. Hope you don't mind. If you do, continue the talk in mine, by doing the same.

Not that I don't like your proposal with the fourfold, but it'll be too small for 1st page. Now let's get back to the map:

Where does it repeat those claims? The terms on the template are all scholarly, it just happens that they are reproduced by nationalists. The two issues are separated, or is there a link I haven't observed? •NikoSilver• 22:36, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

PS and sorry for possible edit conflict: I know it is subjective, but I like it mostly because of how it looks, not because of any nationalistic implication.•NikoSilver• 22:39, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I've tried to add the maps to the sample page; but I've had trouble shrinking them to fit. If you can do that, we can interest the reader more, by showing that Macedonia has moved all over the place. (The details may be less visible, but the point will carry. Septentrionalis 22:43, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

No edit conflict; and I'm sorry to hear that: My chief objection is that I don't like how it looks; although I really do find the caption unnecessary. Differences in national taste, I suppose. Septentrionalis 22:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

PLEASE, let's keep the talk in one place! How it looks: As I said, it's subjective. However, I'll give it a shot tomorrow. For now, let's suppose you like it too. Caption: Why is it unnecessary? What would you suggest in its place? •NikoSilver• 22:54, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, making the caption smaller, as I see you've done since the TfD, is a big help. It gives much less impression of shouting over whether Aegean Macedonia is actually Greek Macedonia, and so on. But Aegean Macedonia, Pirin Macedonia, and so forth, are defined and linked and footnoted right next to the map. Do they really need to have this done all over again? How about "[color] Aegean Macedonia, [color] Pirin M., ...", which should fit in one or two lines? after all, all it is is a color key. (I would have no objection to scare quotes or "Region called" if you think this gives too much legitimacy to the names.) Septentrionalis 23:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

No, don't misunderstand me, I am not trying to illustrate that Aegean Mk is Greek Mk and so forth because it adds some kind of validity/legitimacy to the Greek dominion over that area (and so forth). I'm just adding it because it happens that scholars call that part likewise in both occasions. I wouldn't object removing the one or the other alternative term if that was your point. For the [color]-text proposal, I guess it would occasionally wrap inappropriately, unless we shrunk it all to 'Greek' text (ha!). As for the scare quotes, they are unnecessary. Nobody can be offended by scholarly terms (it says so below for the Greeks "Athens doesn't take issue"). If you believe we should remove one or the other name (pls tell me which) I think I know how to make the caption shorter: I'll create two columns; one for the Major, and one for the Minor. (PS. I'm also working on combining the history maps to see how they look this size). •NikoSilver• 23:36, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

If I had to pick, I'd keep Aegean Macedonia and so forth; because that's what we're defining. Septentrionalis 01:32, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

See User talk:NikoSilver#Test for the fourfold.•NikoSilver• 00:19, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Looks good, unless you want it a bit larger; I take it that adding

"If it were not confusing, it would not have been Macedonia"-J. McCarthy

would be illegible? (It doesn't need sourcing, just the quotes.) Septentrionalis 01:32, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I guess I didn't like it, but that (again) is subjective. I really find the other option more intriguing for the readers ("Moved around? So what! - Partitioned among 3 nations? Hmmm, let's give it a look!"), but that is just my opinion, of course. You must admit that the colors in the geo version create more eye-attraction (...or I can hear you saying "Cat vomet would attract eyes too.") I'll give it a shot with Aegean and so forth, and I'll work on the map a little bit. I'll also try to make the fourfold option more attractive. Perhaps we could have a poll on these two options later in the article talk? •NikoSilver• 10:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I uploaded a new version for the history pic in my talk (hit ctrl-F5). : (a) Zoomed-in maps, (b) Added quote, per Sept. instructions. Guys, I try to cooperate as much as I can, but I really find this picture dull, and confusing in this size (which btw is already a little larger than usual tfa's). Sorry, I still prefer the geo version, and I am willing to discuss further to improve it, if that is possible...•NikoSilver• 12:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I also tweaked the original Template:Geographical Macedonia to remove more blank space from the caption; hope it's more appealing to you now. Moreover, I created another Template:Geographical Macedonia 2 which excludes the second names, and splits the caption in 2 columns, but I find we should not omit that information. Finally, I've been experimenting with the various degrees of transparency and other colors in the map, and despite my efforts, I can now positively confirm that this is the best color-combination we can have. Those colors are fashionable too; believe me, I know well (Fran knows why...) :-)•NikoSilver• 15:33, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Have you tweaked the colors in the "geography" map? Either I'm looking at it with different eyes, or the colors are coming across less strongly. One point of detail: Is Athos really excluded from "Aegean Macedonia"? And if so, on what grounds? Septentrionalis 17:18, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Or it;s that I happen to using a different computer in the same system. If this is it, be warned that the colors are unstable. Septentrionalis 17:19, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know about Athos, but being an autonomous region, I thought it was excluded from Gr Mk. Now from Aegean Mk, things are a little complicated. Truth is I don't know, and I suspect that reference will not be easy. I propose I remove the border and color it as well, so that nobody notices.

Colors: No, I didn't upload any tweaked image. They were like that before. I, myself, use 3 pc's and haven't seen any difference. Maybe you like them because fashion is catching up with your rigid mathematic mind. :-) Download NASA's World Wind (that's where I got the map from). It's like a free Google earth, if you know. You'll be able to spin around the globe with your mouse and zoom it with the wheel to see the roof of your house! The moon too! It's really worth the installation...•NikoSilver• 21:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

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Pharmakos article restored to previous version

Hi Paul. Anonymous editor User:71.255.92.56 changed the gist and verifiability of the article on the ancient Greek Pharmakos which I had carefully researched and written into, some time ago. I restored the old version after carefully reading the new version many times and seeing some unverifiability in it, even though it seems to present as a "cleanup" re-write. It's just not that. The old version is: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pharmakos&oldid=78999545

I will be updating the article with more citations and verifiable text soon. Any thoughts ? Best Wishes. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc 19:12, 2 October 2006 (UTC) (talk)

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mediation

I moved your opinion up with the others. to make things more clear, i put it as conditional support, since you do not prefer Lar deciding by himself. Apologies if I've done anything wrong with the move, and feel free to re-arrange it or vandalize my own page. :_) just kidding. ciao. Taalo 19:54, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

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Re : Seventh Party System

No problem about that at all, I respect the discussion and always glad to have a review of my judgement from time to time. - Cheers, Mailer Diablo 11:39, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Constitution of Athens

I noticed you appear to have been one of the main contributors to the article on Athenian democracy. In the talk page of the said article, I recently posted a diagram representing the Constitution of Athens based on the Athenaion Politeia attributed to Aristotle. I would like people to comment on it before I propose its inclusion in the article on Athenian democracy. You can take a look at the said diagram here:

• Image:Athenian-constitution-aristotle.png

Thank you! -- Mathieugp 18:46, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

1. Would replacing "Electors" by "Voters" do the job?

2. Military servants box: You are right. At some point I ran out of space so I created this box. I guess I can move stuff around a bit on the canvas and reinsert boxes for hoplites and horsemen.

3. Le Council of 500: Doh! I'll fix this asap. :-)

4. Heliaia as "Juries": Maybe you meant "Heliasts" as Juries? Right now, the names are a mix of Ancient Greek written using the Roman alphabet and English words, some with latin roots. I think for clarity, it is best to use English names whenever it makes sense. For the main institution boxes, I wrote "English name (Greek name)". For the smaller boxes representing "offices", I thought it would end up being too crowded if you know what I mean.

5. Where is the best place to write that I made the diagram myself using Dia? Did you mean I should write that I am the author on the diagram itself?

6. Judicial senate: I'll look for a better English term. Maybe reading the English translation of the Athenaion Politeia will help me out.

7. The article Constitution of the Athenians suggests there is no solid evidence that it really is the work of Aristotle himself. The French article also mentions this. I don't know much about this issue myself so I cannot comment. -- Mathieugp 21:51, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I updated the diagram on the French language Wikipedia. You can see it here: fr:Image:Constitution-d'athènes-du-vivant-d'aristote.png It includes some of your suggestions. What do you think? -- Mathieugp 02:56, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Re:3RR

Thanks for your message. I've told Larry that I agree with your assessment of the 3RR report. I think he must have misunderstood something I said when I blocked him for 3RR. :/ Cheers, Sarah Ewart (Talk) 01:05, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Please don't yell

I had workmen at the apt. today, so I let myself off the hook and edited Wikipedia:Attribution. Let me know what you think. Robert A.West (Talk) 18:13, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

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AFD

Thank you for contacting me before going to DRV. I am aware that AFD is not a vote - if it was I would have closed it as "Keep". I consider the "no concensus" decision to be correct, as although the the delete arguments were not fully addressed, I could not see that all the keep arguments were addressed either, and there seemed to be uncertainty as to whether if it was deleted it should be redirected elsewhere and, if so, where. I believe these are matters that can be discussed on the talk page and resolved without the further requirement for AFD, but nevertheless the "no concensus" decision in no way precludes it being relisted at a later date. Cheers, Yomangani^talk 15:29, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I disregarded the OR claims concerning the fact that the Sixth Party System must have come into existence by now, but I did note Uncle G's point of Aldrich's claim and your own research revealing that articles had been written concerning at least the concept of a Sixth Party System. The claims made in the article may have been badly skewed toward the existence of a Sixth Party System, but I judged that would be a matter for cleanup or merging (as I stated in the closing statement). I have no problem with it being radically rewritten, redirected or merged, but I feel it would have been wrong to close it as delete. Yomangani^talk 16:00, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

OK. Thanks again for contacting me before taking it to DRV. Yomangani^talk 16:12, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

DRV

Please explain this edit. Why did you delete my !vote? User:Zoe|(talk) 02:11, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Discussion of name change of Skåneland

Please see Talk:Skåneland to discuss a possible name change. -  AjaxSmack  00:40, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you a sockpuppet of User:Panarjedde?

Why did you silently reverted the link from Alexandroupoli to tree and monk[1] , which stood there for more than one year and a half, immediattly after the revert war I had with Panarjedde [2]? -- Bbb1992 Insert non-formatted text here

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Today's featured article

Just wanted to let you know a featured article you worked on, 0.999..., was featured today on the Main Page. Tobacman 00:35, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Paul Cornell

Your notations on Paul Cornell (Chicago) almost felt like vandalism. I had gone to a borders this weekend and taken notes from the Encyclopedia of Chicago and other books. Today, I checked out the Encyclopedia of Chicago and will look more closely over the next few days. I am not sure what your complaint is about. I also think you should remove the quality standards tag, but will await your comment. TonyTheTiger 18:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

See new response at Talk:Paul Cornell (Chicago).

See revision. TonyTheTiger 17:32, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Does the link to independent work by another wikipedian at Midway Plaisance satisfy your doubts. See section The South Park Commission plan. TonyTheTiger 15:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Yogurt/Yoghurt

This notice is to inform you that there is a new discussion open on the Yogurt/Yoghurt debate. Please visit Talk:Yogurt#Requested move revisited and consider participating. Thank you. —Mets501 (talk) 00:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi: I'm slightly confused about your vote. You voted "Oppose", so do you mean you want it at Yogurt or Yoghurt? —Mets501 (talk) 10:58, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Federalist Papers

See my response on Talk:Federalist Papers, I'd be interested in hearing in more detail your ideas for that article since I have all my books on it at hand as well as some time ATM. Christopher Parham (talk) 04:46, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

State Capitals

Regarding your change on Perth Amboy and Burlington being joint capitals of New Jersey: When you said that both towns "functioned" as capitals, do you mean they acted simultaneously as capitals, or did the seat of government rotate between the two towns like the Connecticut Legislature did between Hartford and New Haven? --MCB 10/26/06

Dee

I want to make clear to you that my only intention with John Dee article is to adapt it to current days FA criteria. Whether we like it or not (I do, by the way!) inline citations are a confirmed criterion and the implied or other ways of sourcing something you mentioned in your comments are not enough. You'll see that now that Yomangani did an excellent referencing job I changed my vote. My intention in FARC is to keep articles not remove them; but keep them in accordance to nowadays FA criteria. Cheers!--Yannismarou 07:24, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

We obviously disagree in how a good article should be structured. I respect your point of view, but I totally disagree. I regard inline citations not as a waste of time, but as a gain of time.

If you want to use Pericles as a bad example, you can do it. I have no problem. The article is confirmed by the Wikipedia community, including you, as a FA. So, I'm Ok. If you want to use other articles for your purpose I can also mention some. Speaking of the articles I've edited, you can use Demosthenes, Aspasia or Alcibiades.

Once again, I honestly believe that your purpose is the improvement of the Wikipedia's article. But I think that yor way is not the right one. I totally respect your point of view, but I regard it as wrong and irrational. Cheers!--Yannismarou 18:49, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

More Dee

I wasn't taking offense, just pointing out that it was only cited because it was essentially zero cost in that instance. If a source is referred to by name and author in the text, I certainly don't think an inline citation is required, but if you look futher down the comments you'll see my rationale as to why I think inline citations are, in general, a necessary evil. Cheers, Yomangani^talk 15:45, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

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Kannada cities

Hey. You might want to move your vote from Talk:Bangalore over to Wikipedia talk:Indian Wikipedians' notice board#Article name updates for some Cities of Karnataka. Thanks, Xiaopo (Talk) 04:00, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you for your help. You gave me a good information for changing my name.

Greetings

Francois Haffner 07:41, 3 November 2006 (UTC) (you can remove this message)

AD/CE

"... the AD/CE edit war is another and clearer example. The wiki solution to the problem would be for anyone who was editing a sentence anyway to change the style if he objected to it, and otherwise to leave it alone. It is an elementary theorem of probability theory that the proportion of AD to CE would then reflect the proportion of people who prefer one to the other, and WP would achieve uniformity when the world does - and not before."

It is not a theorem of probability, or even true, that the proportion of AD/CE would depend on the number of people in the world who prefer each. It would be true if the number of people making edits were a random sample, and if no other factors were involved. But it is not a random sample. The group of people making edits is a very non-random sample, composed of those people who 1/ know about WP, 2/ know about the English WP, 3/ edit the English WP 4/edit topics where it is relevant 5/know about the difference 6/care about it in editing, 6/think it appropriate to change the form and 7/actually do so. None of these successive samples are random. Furthermore, there's another factor: the frequency depends not on the number of people, but the number of edits--it cannot be assumed that the ones who prefer each, would make an equal number.

And that's the point: the actual frequency is affected by a very small number of people who have the persistence to make many edits, repeatedly. That's general in WP: the result depends not upon personal views, or even personal views of those working on a subject, but the persistence of those working. A single individual can succeed in getting a totally unrepresentative view with a single dubious citation inserted into many articles, if more zealous than the opponents. And so they do. I fully believe in the representation of non-standard viewpoints, but with a clear statement that they are non standard, & of the approximate extent that they are non-standard among the relevant people. For example, I would not say that some Americans believe 9/11 was engineered by the US government and some do not, but that a very small but vocal minority in the US think so, and almost everyone does not.

as for AD/CE, I am of the CE/BCE school in theory, but I never notice it here or elsewhere unless the subject is events considered to occur in Palestine and surroundings during the 100 years before & after the destruction of the Second temple in Jerusalem. (I don't notice it otherwise, even in subjects of purely Jewish religious context written by those obviously Jewish.)

In general I'm with you, Pmanderson, as I hope is obvious. DGG 05:09, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

thanks for the comment on my user page. Yes, not all of the possible things I listed are really relevant. The language might have been: e.g. a country that uses another calendar altogether: I decided to look--although I can't read any of the relevant languages, I can recognize Arabic numerals. Many of the articles on Islam in the En WP use CE dates when they specify either, but,to my surprise, rarely converting to AH in parenthesis. What really surprised me is that in the Ar WP, those articles also do not convert to their own dates,(also not even in parentheses), which to me indicates a culturally very insensitive crude job of translation.

And all this is a very interesting side issue (which I know has been extensively discussed before). But my main point is the susceptibility of WP to zealots. I especially mind irresponsible or immature zealots for causes where I agree with them, who put up sophomoric arguments. They make me ashamed, but I know if I go into any of these subjects I will never come out. DGG 00:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

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Thank you for your support!

Se la face ay pale, la cause est... Se la face ay pale, la cause est... 23:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

If I'm a bit pale in the face now, it's because of the amazing support during my recent request for adminship and because of all those new shiny buttons. And if in the future my use of them should not always be perfect please don't hesitate to shout at me any time, sunset, noon or sunrise.

Edit summary insufficient, to me at least

I'm wondering what you meant by "assumes equivalent statement; not a proof" when you removed "Proof by local linearity" from the L'Hopital's rule article. I'm not against the removal -- in fact, the proof is original research -- but I'm wondering exactly why the proof is circular. Would deltas and epsilons be required to make the proof valid? Thanks. --Gracenotes ^T § 22:09, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Frankfurt-on-Oder

So in the 14th edition of Brittanica, the Americana and my edition of Webster's Geographical Dictionary. Since the current edition of Britannica does not adhere to "Use English" as a policy it is of limited help here. Robert A.West (Talk) 08:32, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Matthäuspassion

Would this be better moved to St. Matthew Passion, St. Matthew's Passion or Passion According to St. Matthew? I've performed it under all three English titles. Similar question for Johannespassion. Robert A.West (Talk) 05:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Line of succession to the Portuguese throne, presently

Have you checked the article Line of succession to the Portuguese throne ? It should presumably moved to "Miguelist line of succession to the Portuguese throne", or how? Can we allow that inherently problematic present name to any article? Marrtel 19:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you should move the article back and then discuss a move. The new name is inherently controversial and inaccurate... Only one of the people on that page is a pretender. Charles 00:35, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Just because a throne is defunct doesn't mean that there can't be a line of succession for it. It doesn't need to be described in the article title whether the throne is defunct or extant. It is a throne regardless of its legal status. Now, even if the line of succession itself is controversial, additional lines can be discussed or presented within the article with the necessary headings. Charles 00:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Equally, or yet more, questionable assumtions of existence of thrones

As you seem to dispute "lines of succession" articles as controversial, I hint you to check all the articles linked to the following template: {{Order of Succession (Former Monarchies)}} (I am not sure where the template will take its place here in your talkpage, but you surely will find it somewhere here).

There are a number of articles about "lines of succession" today (not in 1910) which appear to assume that such throne exists. Welcome to check. Marrtel 01:40, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

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Please stop arguing with a native speaker?

The native speaker of what language argues that "Elgin, Lancaster County, South Carolina" is AE usage? Uh, sorry, but as a native speaker of American English, I am going to argue with such nonsense. --Serge 06:41, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Please don't be insulting

It would really help the environment around here if you didn't call editors oxen, as if they're somehow beneath you. Thank you. --Cyde Weys 23:27, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Responded to at User_talk:Cyde/Archive013#Superiority.

Democratic Republican sensitivity

Looking at your comment on List of Presidents, I think I'm beginning to see your concern with early party name usage. I have similar concerns vis-a-vis the use of "Democrat Party", and perceive that you want to ensure a direction lineage of the Democratic party back to the origins of Jefferson's party. I can understand that. I have simply been looking for unbiased, historically accurate labelling, and see why you might perceive that as being partisan. I can whole-heartedly assure you that is not the case. I believe the more that people read these articles, the less they'll view today's Republican Party as the party of Lincoln, a radical abolitionist (to oversimplify). Let me know if I am on target or 180 degrees off. If the former, shall we share a peace pipe? Skyemoor 01:44, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

You mentioned you were concerned that applying "Republican" to Jefferson in the List of Presidents would give people the impression that he and Lincoln belonged to the same party, even though a link would take them to a different article. Quite frankly, having the same party name for Lincoln and the current President would be the confusing connection to me, as Lincoln belonged to a radical abolitionist party condemned by Southern conservative religious leaders instead of a conservative party who draws support from corporations and wealthier individuals. I can see that a person who wants to promote a particular party may be dismayed if another party's name is attributed to a President that their party recognizes as the party's founder. Perhaps "republican" would work better in this instance. That would give people pause, spark interest, and encourage them to follow the link. Skyemoor 12:23, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

cities

That might be something. I'm not sure how to get anybody's attention, though, with the current state of the page and debate. Any thoughts on that? john k 17:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)

Would you annouce that we think the proposal is ready to advance to a proper guideline at the places you think such an annoucement should be made? I concur we seem to be rather ready.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  21:04, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Lol, same here :) -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  21:45, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

== Unsigned question =-

You deleted my question to you because I didn't sign my name? Are my initials good enough? I don't feel comfortable putting my name on this forum. If my emails initials aren't good enough, can I leave you with my email address? If so, I will leave my email address tomorrow, and you can respond to that. Thanks. MCB

I don;t have any way to respond to you, unless you see this. No; please don't leave you email on WP. But there's no reason not to sign up as User:MCB ot user:MCB641, which is as anonymous as this post. Septentrionalis 06:32, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

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3RR on Thomas Jefferson

You have been temporarily blocked for violation of the three revert rule in regard to the article Thomas Jefferson. Other users in violation have also been blocked. The timing of this block is coincidental, and does not represent an endorsement of the current article revision. Please feel free to return after the block expires, but also please make an effort to discuss your changes further in the future on the article's talk page (Talk:Thomas Jefferson).

Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:31, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Please sign your comments

Hi there, it is impossible to determine which comments are yours on the Thomas Jefferson page as you do not sign your comments. If you do not know how to do this, it is easy: just press the tilde key. On my keyboard, it is on the upper left next to the number 1 key. There are also instructions just below the window where you enter comments. Also, if you look at how other people have signed, that will give you the model for how this is done. Thank you. Skywriter 14:49, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

No, my comments are not a template. It is not possible to follow your comments on the cited page. If someone has interrupted your comments and made them unreadable, you could ask that author to remove the interruption or place it following your comments in a manner that does not interrupt the flow of your argument. Skywriter 07:30, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Silver Certificate and Fair Tax

Two articles that I think you might find interesting for various questionable claims. Robert A.West (Talk) 20:43, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Frankish custom of the March Field

Hello Pmanderson,
I removed some information from your edit of the History of democracy article per this guideline. The edit had a line about the "Frankish custom of the March Field". It has no source, along with no common source (Google can't find anything on it) and the link for March Field goes to the US military base. Could you please provide more information about this "march field"? I am very interested in it!
Thanks,
- Kevs 22:58, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, sorry about that. I looked at clause #2 instead of clause #1. I put it back.

FYI: Currently the article March Field is a re-direct.
- Kevs 23:52, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Burr-Hamilton duel?

I have always used (and recall hearing and seeing) Hamilton first, as the more famous person. What was used at the 200th? Do you have an opinion? Robert A.West (Talk) 06:23, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The page you gave me uses Hamilton-Burr throughout, so I am puzzled at your comment. I will look at the other pages presently. Robert A.West (Talk) 22:31, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

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Unsourced BLP

Like most unsourced BLP's, Robert Edward Johnson is mostly accurate, mostly autobiography and mostly unsourcable and unimprovable. For those same reasons, it patently fails notability and vanity criteria. It should be a sure bet for deletion via AfD (unless extreme inclusionists intervene and the closing admin listens). While it is difficult to think how any of the information there could damage the subject, I think it better to simply insist on sources for all BLP's than to try to distinguish the defamatory from the rest. Robert A.West (Talk) 16:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Tigernet is not an acceptable source. From the "Registration information."

Who is eligible to access the TigerNet Online Services?

Princeton University undergraduate and graduate alumni are eligible to sign up for TigerNet Online Services. Current students, faculty and staff can also access certain portions of the site using their University NetID and password.

Because it is only supposed to be available to alumni, staff, faculty and students, it is not published in the Wikipedia sense. While other unauthorized registrants may not be detected, they would be violating the terms of use, and possibly Federal law. For Wikipedia to suggest even obliquely that readers commit such violations is among the most inappropriate things that I can think of. I will add a note that registration is limited to alumni, students, faculty and staff.

Furthermore, the fact that there is a source for some facts in an article does not obviate the need for sources for the other facts, although it may obscure the unsourced nature of those assertions. This BLP would not qualify as a CSD, but it is clearly not appropriate for inclusion in Wikipedia, on verifiablility as well as notability grounds. Robert A.West (Talk) 20:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

So similarly Robert J. Johnson, prodded by me.Robert A.West (Talk) 21:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Pretenders

I observed that you have not yet expressed your opinion about my move request of the artcle, requested at Talk:Pretenders to the kingdom of Portugal. Could you visitb that situation, seeing that you have been previously interested in the said article's location? Marrtel 22:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

John Adams

If what he's writing does not reflect a historical consensus, that would certainly be fine. My opinion was only that if his claims are sourced, it's incumbent upon anyone who wishes to change or remove them to establish that either other sources disagree or that his writing is a selective or inaccurate summary. If that's the case, it certainly needs changing away! Seraphimblade 15:43, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds fair enough to me. Seraphimblade 16:45, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Interested?

Hi there! I've seen you have been a long-time constructive user among wide areas of Wikipedia. The mop crew could always use the help of a dedicated and interested editor. As such, would you be interested in being nominated for adminship? (Radiant) 16:12, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello. We have had our conflicts in the past, but nothing for a long time, and from what I can see you do a valuable work. I would support you.Ultramarine 19:26, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I do see your previous RFA in august was rather strongly opposed, in particular because of civility issues. Do you believe this has substantially improved? What would you say to convince those people who opposed you last time to change their minds? (Radiant) 15:29, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Yellow Pigs Day

Hi. I didn't suspect you had any familiarity with YP Day. I'm not sure whether content would be better merged to Michael Spivak or to Hampshire College Summer Studies in Mathematics but it certainly should wind up somewhere. I'm not an admin and don't have a copy of the ex-article, but I believe User:Samir was keeping a copy around somewhere. Regards, Newyorkbrad 19:16, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Re: MfD

Thanks for letting me know; I've commented in the appropriate area. Flcelloguy (A note?) 03:18, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Homotopy groups of spheres on WP:GA/R

Hello Sept/Pmanderson,

I'd like to apologize if I was excessively snarky on the WP:GA/R review of Homotopy groups of spheres. I was dealing with a nontrivial extra-Wiki stress-level (taking 4 PhD-level classes plus one 200-level Chinese course; and it's final exams/term papers crunch time). I shouldn't have let extra-wiki stress spill on-wiki, but didn't realize it at the time. A minor positive side-benefit is that I have learned from the experience.

Best Regards, --Ling.Nut 19:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Wasting time

Clearly, I underestimate the demand for Samuel Johnson in search results. I apologize. P.S. do you have an opinion on the related matter Wikipedia_talk:Disambiguation#Primary_Topic? TonyTheTiger 23:31, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

1. WP:PR not sure which article you are referring to. Which of the articles on my user page are you referring to? TonyTheTiger 00:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

2. You should be aware that last week I won a similar Robert Johnson move by an 8-2 margin. I sort of thought this would fall the same way. I was not contesting whether he was the main guy. I just though if the remainder agregate to 50% then they should be the direct link. The policy needs to be more clear on whether that is what we should be debating. In the future (maybe long long term, but eventually) we will probably be able to see click through history breakdowns I would imagine. By then such policy needs to be set. TonyTheTiger 00:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

3. Did you actually say which side of the majority/plurality argument you are on? TonyTheTiger 00:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I enjoyed the humor of WP:PRO. This month I may apply for adminship. It gives me some perspective. P.S. I am still hoping for an answer on 3 above. TonyTheTiger 02:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I got your reply about my inexperience. # of edits is a pretty tough rule to go by. If you look at the tasks at the top of my list of things to do you can see that if I chose to pad my edit numbers I could easily produce 2 thousand edits a week just on stuff like the first two items on my list. I don't think a raw number like # of edits tells you much. WRT Johnsons and Cornell. In each case, at nearly the same time I made two move proposals one that was rejected and one that was accepted. You seem to only be memorable in the two opposed requests, but Haystacks (same time as Cornell) and Johnson were just part of the bigger picture of efforts to improve the encyclopedia. I have made a half dozen or so Johnson dabs since Turkey Day (I entertained at Robert E. Johnson's widow and family on that day). I have created a few dozen Johnson related articles, templates and categories (all listed on my user page) ranging from Robert E. Johnson to E. Normus Johnson and Samuel Curtis Johnson, Sr.. I believe you understand my S Johnson dilemna was that I thought he represented a plurality of desired Sam Johnson search results as opposed to majority given my major revisions of the dab. P.S. As an aside do you have any statistics that would tell me how many previous applicants have been of Afro-American heritage or Latin-American descent. TonyTheTiger 18:46, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I have figured out how to handle George Bush type problems. See Wikipedia_talk:Disambiguation#Primary_Topic. TonyTheTiger 20:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

WP:PR

I posted my first WP:PR thanks to your typo. TonyTheTiger 17:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

P.S. I am just realizing we have crossed paths at Paul Cornell (Chicago) before. TonyTheTiger 17:39, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

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I'll stop

I already addressed why I think characterizing a vote in support of Tariq's proposal as a vote to change the guideline is fair where you raised it on the talk page. I hope you find my answer satisfactory. As to your other request, fair enough. Please let folks know I've backed off per your request. Thanks. --Serge 18:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Re. Dragan_Nikolić_(war criminal)

Thanks for contacting me. I did not notice the series of AFD nominations regarding this article, including its redirects. But I did notice that it had been moved to Dragan Nikolić (commander) (which effectively removed the POV from the article name), but since nobody expressed a will to keep it under this name on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dragan Nikolic (war criminal), I deleted it anyway. Good you brought this up, I usually pick AFDs to close at random so I had little chance to notice all the separate follow ups. I restored Dragan Nikolić (commander) only, the redirects containing "(war criminal)" I believe are to remain deleted for blatant POV. Please contact me if there's more about this case. Regards.--Húsönd 20:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Divisibility by 13

I think my words were "easy to calculate," not "obvious." I have a little Javascript that uses trial division and that factorizes 1807 instantaneously. Barely the eighth term might be taxing to my little program and I would have to fire up a heavy-duty CAS. PrimeFan 22:28, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

HagermanBot

The issue you reported earlier with HagermanBot has been corrected. Lines that are inserted before an existing signature by the editing user (example) will not be signed by the bot. Thanks again for informing me of the problem. Best, Hagerman^(talk) 05:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Matawan

P, I'm probably just being dense, but I'm completely lost in our discussion about Matawan. I've read and reread that section, and I just don't understand your point. If you're interested in helping me understand, you're going to have to spell it out for me. What do you think the names of the articles for the various place should be, what do you think they should not be, and, for each, why. Thanks. --Serge 23:27, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Edward R. Dewey article category

Why do you keep removing the categories for this article? Your only comment after doin g this twice is "include non-redundant cat" which makes no sense to me. He was an american economist as the article states, so why not have these categories?

thanks to your reply on this in my talk page, I will implement that. Ray Tomes 22:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, you keep putting back "Much of Dewey's work made claims about Business cycles. This subject has been hotly debated;" which is silly. The question is "what claims?" as it makes no sense to say that unspecified claims are hotly debated. Ray Tomes 02:50, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

You gave a reply non my talk page and I have replied to that there. Ray Tomes 22:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Pmanderson 2

I've started this RFA for you. You know the drill :) (Radiant) 10:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Pmanderson, are you aware that your RFA is not yet listed at the main WP:RFA page? Dragons flight 08:20, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

It is now. (Radiant) 09:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

It seems people want you to change your signature to match your username, or the other way around. You may want to comment on this. (Radiant) 10:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Matawan and RFA

Pmanderson, I have given you my vote of support on the RFA based on our discussions in the past. But your difficulty to explain yourself and address the concerns of others on the Matawan matter is disconcerting. I may have to change my vote to neutral citing this thread. If you've made a mistake, that's nothing to be ashamed of. We all do. Admit it and let's move on. That's the characteristic of an admin. But to stubbornly grasp to a position that you cannot even explain is not. Please consider rereading the entire section as if you are a neutral party deciding whether to vote in support of your adminship, as this is what others may actually be doing, and add an entry accordingly. Thanks. --Serge 18:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

The difference in Usage I seem to see

Well, thank you, Serge. A friend suggests an explanation for the difference in usage you seem to see. Along the Delaware, the following conversation is natural and normal:

A: "Where are you from?"

B: "I'm from Doylestown, Pennsylvania." or "Doylestown, PA"

If A knows Doylestown, PA, there may still be a Doylestown, New Jersey, and B is avoiding confusion. If he doesn't, the state tells A something, at least: which side of the river. (The natural phrasing for Philadelphians is "I'm from Philadelphia", but that's an example of primary usage.)

Coastal California is further from a state border than most of the United States can be; and I don't suppose you get many visitors from the deserts of Arizona or Nevada. Septentrionalis 18:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Once again, I have no idea what your point is. Do you really think that you need to explain to me why someone would clarify the state a city is in, regardless of whether the city name is unique or ambiguous, in a context where the state is not clear and may be relevant? If so, that's alarming. Two strangers talking about where they are from is a very different context from Wikipedia U.S. city article naming. In the former, the state may be very relevant; in the latter, it's completely irrelevant, except as disambiguatory information, if necessary, just like for any article in Wikipedia. --Serge 19:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Since I am the friend who suggested that you two are having a difference in regional usage, it would grieve me if my attempt to help became the cause for further dispute between you. The difference between you is stylistic. Reasonable people will see style issues differently, often for reasons that are hard to articulate in a way that the other person will understand. That doesn't mean that they are impossible to explain, but a false step or two is only to be expected, and it may require some effort on each side. Robert A.West (Talk) 14:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

On the basic issue, as I understand it, the great majority of places that I can think of in this region require disambiguation. A lot of place names come from England (Buckingham, Bedminster, Warrington, York, North Wales), famous world cities (Rome, Philadelphia, New Madrid) or even countries (Egypt, Holland). All of these require a qualifier perforce. There are at least three areas named "New Britain" that I can think of. Others have names from common features that doubtless have inspired names for places in other areas, like "Pineville", "New Galena", "Long Pond". Transliterated Algonquian names can be found anywhere that those tribes inhabited, sometimes with slight variations of spelling. Unique names are actually rare.

While there is nothing logically inconsistent with having Holicong surrounded by Buckingham, Pennsylvania, Solebury, Pennsylvania and New Hope, Pennsylvania, it seems silly to have most place names include a state and a few not. Robert A.West (Talk) 20:19, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Re: Username

One solution would be changing the sig to, say Septentrionalis (aka. Pmanderson)? That way confusion can be avoided and Septentrionalis stays also in the sig... feydey 18:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Username note to dlohcierekim and reply

The concern about my sig is surprising; I've been asked about it only twice in all my career. My sig has always been this; changing now would mean disavowing my former edits and be perhaps more confusing. Some editors think of me by sig, some by username; changing either will puzzle somebody. If I must choose one, I would prefer the sig, which I intended as my wikipedia identity; but I have usually, and may have now, too many edits to change my username, and I do not wish to put that quite considerable burden on WP:CHU. Septentrionalis 18:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC) (brought over for continuity)

Thanks for your note. I guess I'm being overly picky. That's just a pet peeve of mine. I get confused when sig != username. It probably should not bear on the AfD. Will strike from my comment. Cheers, :) Dlohcierekim 18:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Disambiguation

May I ask you a question about disambiguation? I am newly exploring this area, because I was editing this article Classic Arts Showcase just randomly and noticed a link at the top to a disambiguation page. So I click it, and on the page Classic Arts Showcase (disambiguation) there is only the link back to the page I was editing. I thought it was odd so I spent some time reading up on the subject and determined there was no need for this page. So then I spend time trying to figure out how to delete pages when they don't qualify for speedy deletion, which I read about yesterday (a lot of reading to do around here). Anyway, while I was posting on the editor's talk page, I notice other people have said things to them about this issue, so I also find Hyperactive (disambiguation) which as you can see links back to one article but just lists things that don't have articles. Is this proper? Am I even making sense? :) Ugly Elephant 14:23, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I asked you directly because it looked like people didn't like people posting specific cases to that page. You seem to post there a lot, so I asked you. So it is normal to have a disambiguation page when none of the listed articles exist? Ugly Elephant 17:52, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikistalking

Cyde's "wikistalking" is illusory. I spend time on discussion pages such as WP:DRV, WP:MfD; and WP:TfD. We tend to disagree; I thought, and think, that editors should be generally be left alone, and that the userbox matter was handled with excessive abrasiveness; I also think namespace redirects are harmless. I !voted accordingly in several polls. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:04, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I dunno what to tell you dude. When you're only getting 50% support for an RfA, that indicates some pretty important community trust issues that need to be addressed. When you have respected admins like Cyde talking about "Wikistalking" and vendettas, it certainly doesn't help your case. Even if the allegation is false and you are acting in good faith, it's still pretty bad that he perceives you as out to get him... either way you should work on that.

You've gotten some pretty good feedback and I doubt that RfA will reach consensus. I would honestly recommend a withdrawal at this point. Combine the really small issues like the improper RfA listing and the shady sig (props for addressing that right away, even though I'm sure you didn't like changing it and I wouldn't either) with some of the big ones like community trust and accusations of severe incivility and the recent 3RR, and it just equals horrible timing man.

If you really want an RfA to succeed, take six months and focus on being especially civil. Earn the respect of some of the oppose voters by making a genuine effort to work with them in harmony. Also, get really involved in the janitorial tasks that admins do so that you’re familiar with everything and so that people will have more confidence that you won’t make good-faith newbie mistakes as a new admin. And then file another RfA, which should go much much better.

I hope that advice helps. This is my first interaction with you and I'm certainly not out to get you, but in all honesty... the allegations raised in the oppose section are genuinely disturbing and do need to be addressed before you can expect enough support to achieve sysop status in a future RfA.

Good luck man. Look forward to working with you in the future. – Lantoka (talk) 20:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Green Frog article

A vandal added wrong data to the article, yet when I tried to remove it you kept reverting it back, leaving a "experimenting with wikipedia" template on my userpage. Allow me to refer you to WP:AGF.

The Brothers Broke

Please consider that Phillip Broke and Charles Broke were different individuals, and I am reversing the redirect accordingly. Largely, because I am attempting to find information. Cheers V. Joe 19:43, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

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Bad Idea?

I could use an assist (maybe two). I have a pet peeve, and thought I'd come up with a good concept for making chides to editors who leave incomplete documentation trails by creating sort of a wet diaper award. It seems to be drawing some adverse reactions, and even before I'd spammed a request to some others like this for brainstorming on how to shorten same and evolve it, as I'm not happy with it either. Subsequently, it's already drawn fire (here) before I could ask in help and get suggestions. Can you take a look and comment here. There has to be some way to let people know 'shallow edit actions' that reflect poorly on our pages need a talk note justification, no exceptions, thankyou. Much appreciated // FrankB 23:03, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you so much for your added content. As for the talk page, I tend to agree, but I think it's useful information elsewhere. I'm realizing there is a huge gap in history on Wikipedia right now. This is a big goldmine.

I'm doing some rather brutal copyediting right now. My aim is to make this article as simple yet intelligent as possible. I would ideally like for schoolchildren to read it. I also have a personal goal of removing the red links from James McCune Smith and get them all up to GA or FA by February (Black History Month in the US).

Again, thank you so much. This is making my day (which was already a good day). NinaEliza 04:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

RFA

Just a quick word to inform you that I have closed your RFA. As you know, it didn't have the required level of confidence for me to promote you. Regards, =Nichalp «Talk»= 18:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Madison in the "Democrat Party"?

Did I read you right, when you made this edit saying James Madison was a member of the "Democrat Party"? I realize you may not be happy about your RfA, but you yourself have complained when people use that term; I have backed you up on it. Skyemoor 22:38, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

President article

The 12 December, you removed a request for citation tag I had put in the sentence:

"Originally the term was used to refer to the presiding officer of a committee or governing body in Great Britain."

In the president article, under "Modern history of the designation".

Since you removed the tag, I think you should be able to explain how is it known that the term was first used in Great Britain (and not, e.g., France). Then I could add it to the article (since you didn't).

Thanks --euyyn 10:39, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

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JSB - Good Article Efforts

Hi Thanks for the note left at my comments page. I appreciate your efforts to be conciliatory and to find validity in some of the comments raised by the GA folks. I, however, have no such patience. I did the first time around I came across this spectacle here, which resulted in a lengthy dispute at the project page about inline citation policy. As I see it, the good article project has been taken over by semi-literate hacks who pride themselves on having an "everyman" approach. They ask for clarification and substantiation that tends toward reduction ad absurdum and are simply lazy when it comes to chasing down concepts they do not understand. They ask for inline cites for basic things, stumble over simple ideas, and make foolish critiques (such as the imbecile original research claims raised at the GA review). There was some talk of forking GA to specific areas, such that people who were generally literate in the field could review relevant material (this was particularly so in the science pages), but in the end, no-one has the energy so WP:GA is becoming an empty concept. Intelligent criticism is always welcome; mindless nitpicking from a willful, even virtuous dilettantism is a waste of time. I note that none of the editors of the Bach article has commented. I have because this approach irritates me, but I am not a contributor to the Bach page, as you know. Anyway, these fellows are unlikely to take me too seriously and will not be too bothered by any comments I have to make, no matter their trenchancy. Eusebeus 10:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

"waste of time"

Thank you for your kind words.

It's OK for different groups of people to hold opinions that are polar opposites. In fact, it's good. Democrats sometimes revile Republicans and vice versa, but in truth both are necessary to check the excesses of the other. Ditto for Deletionists and Inclusionists. Ditto for people who hold inline cites dear and those who wish to (almost) abolish them.

But there's an awful lot of unreasonableness being perpetrated in every one of the above discussions. Maybe I should start a guideline WP:Be Humble and Cooperative Even When You Are Absolutely Convinced You Are Right. That should be read by both sides of every debate.

And good work on Agrippina. Why couldn't we have worked instead of yammering and insulting each other?

--Ling.Nut 17:04, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Regarding "setting up the rules in their favor": Actually I think both sides of every debate do their sneaky-best and forceful-best to set up the rules in their own favor. Sometimes one side wins; sometimes the other. The danger would be if one side wins too consistently. That's my humble opinion. --Ling.Nut 18:22, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Wikipedia:inline-citation cabal: I'm really, really afraid of starting another argument. But I would very humbly suggest that perhaps ..just perhaps.. you are not seeing the forest for the trees. At the end of the day (a terribly hackneyed phrase, but it fits here) it is manifestly true that many articles are improved because WP:GA exists. And if articles are improved, then Wikipedia is improved. And if Wikipedia is improved — despite all the yelling and hollering and pumpkin-smashing — then it is all worthwhile. Those are just my personal thoughts. I don't mind at all or don't take it amiss or whatever if you disagree.

Best regards --Ling.Nut 21:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

knock knock! hate to interrupt the discussion. I hope you saw my note immediately above. But the reason I came here again is 'cause you dropped a note off on my talk page that may have been intended for Homestarmy. It mentions Autobianchi Primula, which I have not yet commented on.

Later! --Ling.Nut 01:41, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

thoughts

Hi,

I see the grappling has begun. I am visiting relatives for the holidays and am sick as a dog. I hope to be feeling better tomorrow. But even if I am, I have limited access to the computer, and most spend time being sociable. :-)

You flatter me by calling me a linguist. I am currently a linguist-wannabe. I won't be a linguist until I hear those words, "Congatulations, Dr. Ling.Nut!". That won't be until two or perhaps three years from now.

I'm not sure how to reply to your comments. I actually think we are grappling with macro-issues such as "Is Wikipedia itself a reliable source? What role do domain experts play within Wikipedia?" You and I may or may not disagree on those.

I also think you've made this a personal issue; perhaps even a "crusade." I kinda question your ability to remain impartial & see the validity of the other side's. I hope that is not an offensive remark; it certainly isn't an insult. I've been in your shoes many, many times before.

I hope you can see the tremendous contributions GA has made to Wikipedia. I hope you can see that the question of whether WP is itself a reliable source bears on the issue of inline cites. I hope most of all that you can see that domain experts do not, cannot and should not have the same pride of place within Wikipedia that they enjoy elsewhere.

I'm sure you'll have many things to say. I hope I can reply a little.

I also hope there won't be any animosity between us. I seem to be acquiring a track record of offending domain experts (bot real and self-anointed). I dunno if that's a good thing or a bad thing. I try to do what I sincerely think is right; people choose to be offended.

Best Regards, Not-Yet-Dr, Ling.Nut

Re: Johannes Kepler

I appreciate your comment. I'll reply here to make sure you get the response.

There are several paragraphs on the Kepler article that aren't referenced. I would prefer one reference after each paragraph, to avoid misunderstandings.

When it comes to page references, I think they are useful and should be added when possible. Personally I like to add them for my own sake, so that I can check up on my own references.

I think the standard is to add the year of publication for the book within the reference, so that those with different editions of a book won't mistake. In this case the references should therefore be something like "Caspar (1993), pp 208-211"; see also Wikipedia:Harvard referencing.

Happy holidays. Fred-Chess 16:33, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Another sign of the Apocalypse

Check out the featured article for December 23, 2006. A Pokemon???!!! I'll retire to Bedlam! Robert A.West (Talk) 17:23, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

A hint

Thanks for the tip, I'll add a little something.--M m hawk 22:08, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

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Assuming?

I don't think you're achieving much by bitching on me for trying to apply naming conventions. There's absolutely no harm in shortening these kind of article titles. And the comments at talk:Fala are just really uncalled for.

Peter ^Isotalo 23:48, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Chile settlement article names

There is no more consensus for you to move articles back than there is for Jaxhere to move them in the first place. Jaxhere is trying to do the right thing, and has moved a small number of articles at my suggestion to test for consensus in the absence of any well-known forum to discuss his proposal with other Chilean town article editors. If you have an opinion, you may voice it at Wikipedia talk:Chile-related regional notice board (created since Jaxhere raised his proposal, and therefore not well known yet), but ideally the discussion should be driven by the people most affected, not by us. You are the only person to have objected to any of that batch of moves so far. Please do not revert the rest without a demonstrated consensus to move them back. --Scott Davis ^Talk 13:55, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

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Great Occitanian slugfest

Hello Septentrionalis! In your recent comment on a Category for discussion debate [3] you conceded that the Girondins were not Occitan. Inquiring minds want to know why not? EdJohnston 23:27, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Sesqui...

Would you mind also looking at sesquitertium, sesquiquartum, sesquiquintum? I am not familiar with these terms, and their articles show little claim to notability; I prodded the articles as dictionary definitions from another language. CMummert 20:04, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Saparmurat Niyazov

Despite the overwhelming consensus against moving this page, Svitrigaila is insisting the article on Saparmurat Niyazov reflect his transliteration. Please revert him so he understands that he does not have consensus. KazakhPol 01:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

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Republicanism

I don't have time to read Banning, for starters. What definition is being employed? For that matter, who among the founders would not have described himself as a "republican?". Robert A.West (Talk) 11:23, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

In re Banning: "Access to the collection is restricted to faculty, students, members, and staff of subscribing institutions." Robert A.West (Talk) 18:22, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I see you have labeled it. Robert A.West (Talk) 23:06, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Categories for Perth Amboy, New Jersey

There's a Perth Amboy article and Perth Amboy category, which I will refer to as PAart and PAcat. You have removed three categories from PAart and placed them in PAcat, to include Category:Cities in New Jersey, Category:Faulkner Act and Category:New Jersey Urban Enterprise Zone. Placing category A on the article for category B is appropriate if all articles in category B will also belong to Category A. For example, it would make sense to put the category "People from New Jersey" on the category "People from Perth Amboy"; after all, every person from Perth Amboy is from New Jersey. Putting the Category:Cities in New Jersey, Category:Faulkner Act and Category:New Jersey Urban Enterprise Zone on the PAcat is stating that every building, school and bridge in PAcat is a city, a Faulkner Act and a UEZ, which is completely illogical. On teh other hand, it makes sense to keep the Middlesex County category on the PAcat, because everything in perth Amboy is in the Middlesex County cat. As such, I will revert the changes to remove the three categories in question from the PAcat and put them back on the PAart where they belong. Alansohn 07:11, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

DOMAlicious!

I replied to your comment on my talk page. In short, you're right, but inline citations would vastly improve the article by weeding out OR speculation. GertrudeTheTramp 06:40, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and my apologies for poking you in the pet peeve. GertrudeTheTramp

Democrat Party

Pam--Thanks for keeping your eye on the "Democrat Party" article. If it were up to me, that article would just disappear, but I'm glad you're there to keep it locked inside its filthy little cage. 71.139.33.169 18:59, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Talk: Woodrow Wilson

Hello, an idiot anon-user has added a 'garbage' posting, after your posting on the subject 'March 4th'. Just lettin' you know. GoodDay 22:09, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

the REAL name: Trentino-Alto Adige

So I did some research and checked with some pretty credible sources as to what they print, in ENGLISH, for the name of this region (and province) in Italy.

• Fodor's - a well recognized and respected name (and expert guide) has regional and local publications that show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".

• Michelin - also expert in travel guides - has regional and local publications that show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bozen".

• Rand McNally (name speaks for itself) has world, regional, and local publications that show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".

• Streetwise Map's regional, and local publications show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".

• Dorling Kindersley or "DK" - by far, probably the best travel guides available - has regional and local publications that show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".

• Lonely Planet (the self-proclaimed largest independently-owned travel guide) regional, and local publications show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".

• Hammond Map - a subsidiary of Langenscheidt Publishing Group (a privately-held German publishing company) - has regional and local publications that show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".

As far as proof, I am quite sure that the above sources are credible enough, especially in the sense of geographical knowledge, expertise, and English-translation. Rarelibra 03:46, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

You ignore the facts. The sources I quoted are PUBLISHERS, not just 'mapmakers'. Several are world-reknown (and world-based). Just keeping you informed of the ongoing mistakes. Trust me, it doesn't matter here - I was very relieved to see that everywhere else BUT wiki people will see the real and official name. Rarelibra 05:27, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Template:Jewish Communist Organisations in Revolutionary Russia

Your field more than mine: is there any excuse for this template? Robert A.West (Talk) 18:58, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

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Consensus and the Celestial Masters

Before you read this stuff. What do you mean by 'closed' in the edit summary you made when reverting my move? Should I wait for an admin to 'close' the debate? Zeus1234 04:21, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

This is about the article Way of the Celestial Masters which you changed back to Tianshi School after a 4-2 vote in favor of having it at Way of the Celestial Masters. Let me give you a short history of this article. I wrote it in early December. In late December, a user changed the article name uniliateraly without any discussion to Tianshi School. Instead of following the controversial move procedure, he moved it himself. Ever since then I have been trying to change it back. I was hoping that a 4-2 vote would have been enough, but it seems that it is not. I don't understand why I have to go through so much effort to get an article back to its original title after someone else used an incorrect procedure to rename it in the first place. Shouldn't the onus be on the user who changed the name to Tianshi School to keep it that title? Can't the article be put back to its original name? Then if the user still wants to have it changed to Tianshi School, he should have to go about the proper way.Zeus1234 03:55, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, on the Wikipedia page about consensus, it says that a super-majority that consists of 60-80% in favor can count as the equivalent of a consensus. a 4-2 vote would be 66% in favor, therefore it would seem this would qualify as a supermajority. I moved the article because I saw this information and thought that such a move would be fine as per the wikipedia guidelines about supermajorities in article name changes. Look at the info here:[4]. Is 66% not enough? If that is the case, what is?Zeus1234 04:02, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Persian Gulf

Thanks for the offer. For now I'll take a raincheck; I may be called on for travelling to the other side of the globe any moment now, not knowing when – starting sometime in the next four weeks and lasting for a month or so. Right now might be bad timing. I must also say that the topic is rather distant from what actually interests me, and also, having looked at some RfCs in progress, that these appeared to me as a drawn-out and excruciatingly boring process, with unclear effectiveness.  --Lambiam^Talk 07:09, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Move relisted

Sorry to drag this out, but the requested move at Basel earthquake was deemed malformed, so I had to relist it. As you participated in the previous discussion, please add your opinion at Talk:Basel_earthquake#Requested_move. Thanks. Carcharoth 13:59, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Using English

Hello - I'm contacting you because of your involvement with using English instead of foreign terms in articles. A few are trying to "Anglicise" French terms in Wiki articles according to current guidelines but there is some resistance (eg/: "Région => Region"; "Département => Departement"). Your input would be appreciated here. Thankyou. --Bob 16:07, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to bother you again, there is now an RfC open on the subject of using English in French administrative division articles. I don't expect you to contribute much time to this, but if you can, could you please voice a statement and disagree/agree with those statements found there. Maybe we will arrive at a reasonable conclusion soon. It can be found here. Thanks in advance. --Bob 22:05, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

"You guys should put the cart before the horse"

Yes, that was actually said in an emotional plea to keep a template [5] that noone else (including the members of the relevant project) sees a need for. I thought it an oddity worth noting. Robert A.West (Talk) 17:53, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

If he is a nice guy, he should step away from the Reichstag. He has obliquely accused five well-established Wikipedians of being a group of sockpuppets, directly accused all five of bad faith and assuming bad faith and dismissed reasonable assertions by editors whose edit histories suggest knowledge of, or at least interest in, the field. The template in question was created by User:Nintendude, who is permabanned. I wonder if FrankB feels that Nintendude got a raw deal or something? His vehemence is hard to understand otherwise. Robert A.West (Talk) 18:48, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Catholic Encyclopedia

I thought you might be entertained/bewildered by the discussion at Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2007_January_18#Template:Catholic-link. No need to comment if you don't want to, and as always, feel free to point out if you think I am wrong. Robert A.West (Talk) 03:32, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Florian Gate

To quote from Wikipedia:Requested moves: “Editors are strongly discouraged from editing for the sole purpose of changing one controversial name to another. The naming convention used by the earliest contributor takes precedent.” — For your information, I happen to be that “earliest contributor” to Florian Gate article. I suppose, you didn’t care to read what was being said on its Talk page. I wouldn’t be surprised, considering your final unilateral move. --Poeticbent  talk  21:56, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary. I have read it; and that's how I know you have no support. As for me, Florian Gate is at least possible English, and that's why I haven't !voted. If the closing admin finds you have consensus, that's fine by me too; but you certainly don't have it now. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:07, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I thought we were discussing a possible survey by User:Piotrus. Anyway, I guess you didn't care for it much, since you didn't care for the fact that "the naming convention used by the earliest contributor takes precedent." Consensus means general agreement. Such agreement has never been reached, so what were you trying to prove. --Poeticbent  talk  22:31, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

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User notice: temporary 3RR block

Regarding reversions[6] made on January 27 2007 to Tenedos

You have been temporarily blocked for violation of the three-revert rule. Please feel free to return after the block expires, but also please make an effort to discuss your changes further in the future.

The duration of the block is 24 hours. William M. Connolley 12:02, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Grrr, you got yourself blocked over those maps? Pity, I came late to the rescue, I was just going to make you a little present that might have helped. Was just testing my skills in mapmaking today. Like this one? Fut.Perf. ☼ 00:48, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I like Fut.Perf.'s too

I've read that talk and I've done something. Your proposed scale in terms of width (Limnos to Troy), suggests respective height (Lesbos/Mitilini to Thrace/Constantinople). The map didn't include the sea boundary, but it wouldn't be difficult to draw it if we had the data. I've also "tilted" it a bit from South to North, so as to give your requested perspective re mountains etc. NikoSilver 17:18, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Request for mediation filed. Please sign.

A request for mediation has been filed with the Mediation Committee that lists you as a party. The Mediation Committee requires that all parties listed in a mediation must be notified of the mediation. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/St. Florian's Gate, and indicate whether you agree or refuse to mediate. If you are unfamiliar with mediation, please refer to Wikipedia:Mediation. There are only seven days for everyone to agree, so please check as soon as possible.

Alternatives for establishing possible changes to the US comma guideline

Would you consider changing your comment 'Con per all the arguments above; again,...' since that sounds like a vote. This was not intended as a poll but rather a list of pros and cons. Thanks. Vegaswikian 01:25, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Florian Gate / St. Florian's Gate

Hi Pmanderson. As the Mediation Comittee are unable to assist in settling the naming dispute on Talk:St. Florian's Gate (as you refused to agree to mediation with no reason provided), I have tried to settle this dispute before it proceeds to the only subsequent step, which is the Arbitration Committee.

I have suggested Florian's Gate as a compromise, and thus far all parties have indicated this would be acceptable. Would you be happy with this? Proto::► 13:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Bureaucratic nonsense

A request for mediation has been filed with the Mediation Committee that lists you as a party. The Mediation Committee requires that all parties listed in a mediation must be notified of the mediation. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Jogaila, and indicate whether you agree or refuse to mediate. If you are unfamiliar with mediation, please refer to Wikipedia:Mediation. There are only seven days for everyone to agree, so please check as soon as possible.
But you'll have seen that already. However, I wouldn't like to queer the pitch by not following sacred process. I don't know if you want to sign up or not. Would be nice if you could find it in yourself to join in. Cheers! Angus McLellan (Talk) 01:17, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Consensus

I'm tired of discussing about Waldemar and Mario's spelling, aren't you? I'd rather not worry about them anymore as all the real arguments have already been stated. Right now you have replied to both of them so this is my proposal, I'll let you have the last word on Waldemar's topic if you let me have the last on Mario's (of course, this just applies to the exchange of arguments between the both of us), what do you think?Rosa 04:59, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Mooncow Glosses has moved!

Thanks for linking to my Mooncow Glosses! For your information, it has moved, and the new URL is http://zompower.tk/gloss.php. Again, thanks! Bi 13:15, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I decided to be WP:BOLD and fix the link. Sorry and thanks! Bi 04:26, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Polish Sock Puppets

Thanks for the explanation. :)Rosa 19:23, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

US cities naming conventions

I definitely will go through the archives. As a newcomer to the discussion, I had no idea for how long this had been going on. Nevertheless, since the issue is open once again anyway, I reserve the right to voice my opinion on it. I am not going to (ever) re-open the issue myself once it's closed (I have a lot of other things to do without adding US cities naming conventions to my to-do list), but I am going to participate each and every time the discussion is legitimately re-opened, not because I am stubborn and unreasonable, but because I genuinly believe it would be for the best of Wikipedia, and because I find none of the opponents' points convincing. That's my right as a Wikipedian, and I'm going to use it.

Rest assured, I have no personal prejudices against either you or Serge. No matter how many things we agree or disagree on, I don't see it as a barrier for any potential future collaboration. If you see something you believe I can help with, you are very welcome to contact me and ask for my help; any time. Hopefully, same is true the other way around. Best,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 20:53, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, we can't expect everyone to want the same thing. That'd be too good to be true, wouldn't it? :) Truth is, there are plenty of policies and guidelines in Wikipedia that I personally don't like, yet, as an administrator, have to uphold. I am not challenging them all, simply because I know that my time could be far better used elsewhere, but I do usually participate when those policies are challenged by someone else. If a policy is changed as a result, I can get back to editing happy; if it's not, well, then I just get back to editing. No big deal, really. (Universal) Consistency is nice and imprortant, and would be great to have, but content and organization (as opposed to lack of organization) are more important still. After all, we are writing an encyclopedia here, not a "How to Write an Encyclopedia" manual. See you around!—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 21:37, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Sara Ramirez

After five days without discussion, the RM at Talk:Sara Ramírez could use an endorsement. Or opposition if you choose, but I see no reason for it Gene Nygaard 06:17, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Frankfurt (Oder)

Hello. Please stop edit-warring about the name of this city and instead join the other editors in discussing it at the article talk page. If you continue to revert others' edits without discussion, especially against the apparent consensus judging from the article talk page, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Thanks. Sandstein 11:48, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

*

It might not have been your intention, but your recent edit removed content from Template:Polygons. Please be careful not to remove content from Wikipedia without a valid reason, which you should specify in the edit summary or on the article's talk page. Take a look at our welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. Kamope · talk · contributions 14:29, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

WP:ATT

Please read WP:ATT#How_to_cite_and_request_a_source; simply removing unsourced material, unless it is attacks on a living person, is strongly deprecated. Also, your {{cn}} has stirred me to add a footnote to 2 Samuel 11:4; but you really should have consulted a concordance yourself. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:22, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi. Please can you let me know what I deleted? I'm generally an inclusionist, so I find it hard to believe I would have deleted anything, but rather would have added a cn tag. --Rebroad 23:24, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I've now read the WP:ATT, which I had already read recently, but I'm not sure why you have suggested I read it again. Please could you explain? Thanks, --Rebroad 23:28, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment at Wikipedia talk:Attribution#Role of truth. Please explain how the sentence would be misleading, in your opinion. Could you suggest other ways of addressing the concern? I fully admit that that particular sentence is not a very good way of doing it. I would really prefer to just delete "not whether it is true", which in my opinion is no longer needed once the word "verifiability" is not there. I'm sorry, but I need to clarify: are you opposed to inserting the sentence I suggested? (This may seem obvious, but I thought it was very obvious that Crum375 was opposed and I was wrong on that, so I'm trying to get everyone to clarify -- sorry to take up your time in that way.) Thanks. --Coppertwig 00:39, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply on my talk page, but it doesn't really answer my question. You say the sentence is ambiguous and that you and I think it means different things. What do you think it means? What do you think I want it to mean?

You suggest having the discussion on the Community Discussion page. Somewhere on WP:ATT/talk, some people clarified that the Community Discussion page is for talking about such questions as whether WP:ATT is policy or not, while (if I understood correctly) WP:ATT/talk is for discussing the wording of the policy. Is my understanding on that wrong? Is the different purposes of the two pages laid out somewhere? Is the Community Discussion page never going to be archived? Sorry to take up your time with all these questions. Actually, none of them desperately need to be answered -- I think other solutions are better than that particular sentence, anyway. --Coppertwig 16:23, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

David

Hi. Thanks for the citation you added here. I'm not sure why you labelled the request as frivalous though! It's pretty important considering it's disputed by Muslims. Also, why did you change the redirect to the disambiguation page at the top of the article please? Was the existing description not sufficient? I merely changed it to reflect the description given on the existing disambiguation page as it is currently written. --Rebroad 23:33, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I just checked the citation and I couldn't find any mention of David commiting adultery. If you could please clarify the citation it would certainly help. In the mean time, I shall re-instate the cn tag. Cheers, --Rebroad 23:40, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Hello, please see my response to your comment in Talk:David#Adultery. There are indeed commentators who construe the passages involved in a way that absolves David of adultery, and Wikipedia can't accept an editor's own personal opinion about what the Bible means in general, and particularly not when there are reliable sources who say otherwise. Would you be so kind as to identify and cite a notable commentator who reads these passages in the way that you do? One more comment: Suggest reviewing WP:Assume Good Faith policy. Recommend not assuming an editor is being disruptive merely because he or she is coming from a different point of view. Best, --Shirahadasha 01:53, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Hann. Münden

Just for you to know, I strongly disagree with you ignoring the RM result and moving the article to Münden through the back door. The article is now up at WP:RFC. doco (☏) 00:56, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

sexual objectification

I submitted a photo to sexual objectification of women in panties heels and nothing else vacuuming; it's of a fashion show by Imitation of Christ, a well-known label. Several editors want NO images on the page, but I think this one is pretty clear: at a fashion show, these topless models vacuuming in heels shows women objectified sexually. Could you interject with your opinion please? Talk:Sexual_objectification#Request_for_Comment--DavidShankBone 04:09, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Triacontagon -> Tricosagon

Hi ! Noticed you moved Triacontagon to Tricosagon yesterday, but the article itself still uses the term triacontagon (4 times in article text plus once in image caption). Is there some mystic reason behind this, or should I go ahead and fix it ? Gandalf61 14:53, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Ummm ... your reply implied that you weren't sure whether tricosagon was a real word, let alone whether it was the correct term for a 30-sided polygon. So I did some quick checks. Mathworld uses the term triacontagon for a 30-sided polygon here. And triacontagon gets over 1,000 Google hits. Whereas tricosagon gets only 7 Google hits, all of which seem to be using the term to refer to a 23 sided polygon - see here for example. Are you quite sure this article shouldn't be called triacontagon ? Gandalf61 17:27, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, I am still unhappy about the current inconsistency between article name and article text, but now I don't know which direction to take to fix it. I think we need a reference. Do you have a reference for using tricosagon rather than triacontagon, which we can add to the article to support the renaming ? If not, should we perhaps consult the collective brains at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics to see if someone else has a reliable source for one name or the other ? Gandalf61 11:28, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Hann. Münden

I have moved it back. I think unilateral moves directly after an uninvolved editor has examined the arguments and closed the move debate are not a good idea. If you care about the page title so much, please wait a month and file another move request per WP:RM. Thank you, Kusma (討論) 15:21, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

You may have my support on that RfC on Serge

He has been vote canvassing for the page move Talk:Boston, Massachusetts with people that have supported him in the past here. I think that is crossing the line. Agne 23:02, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Chicago quote in the Manual of Style

Hi PMAnderson,

You might be interested to know that a user wishes to remove the CMS quote on the Manual of Style and is leading a discussion to remove it on the grounds that it is ugly, American and pretentious. The discussion is ongoing and can be found at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#That quote in the lead. Your views would be appreciated.

Neonumbers 01:26, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

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Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Shuppiluliuma

Should you wish to comment, User:Rarelibra has opened Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Shuppiluliuma. Regards, Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 23:33, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

David

Clarified that the indicated view is "a" Talmudic view. No need to address the question of whether it is the only such view. Thanks, --Shirahadasha 23:48, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Proposing to merge List of basic classics topics to Classics

Seeking concensus on proposed merger at Talk:Classics. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast 01:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Request for Mediation

A Request for Mediation to which you are a party was not accepted and has been delisted. You can find more information on the mediation subpage, Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Jogaila. For the Mediation Committee, Essjay (Talk) This message delivered by MediationBot, an automated bot account operated by the Mediation Committee to perform case management. If you have questions about this bot, please contact the Mediation Committee directly.

This message delivered: 16:16, 8 February 2007 (UTC).

David

I am asking you to please stop adding unsourced material to this article reflecting your personal point of view. You added a claim that the Rabbis of the Talmud represented a "later Abrahamic tradition" and took the viewpoint they did because they felt distressed etc. about what "really" happened. You have no sources for any of these claims. There are different religious perspectives about what the David story says and means. WP:NPOV prevents you from claiming your personal reading of the text is "true" no matter how convinced you are of its correctness. And WP:V as well as WP:NPOV prevents you from providing your own original research explanations that those who disagree with you do so because they are "distressed" etc. Wikipedia requires laying out the different points of view and indicating who holds them. You can't favor one view over the other just because it's the one you happen to agree with. And you can't add your own personal beliefs about why you think people who disagree with you hold the views they do. If you have difficulty discussing this we can take it to mediation. Best, --Shirahadasha 05:33, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, go ahead and revert back if you'd like, I disagree with portions of the article but agree they aren't yours, clearly I'm up too late and under Wikistress. Will sort this all out later. Good night. --Shirahadasha 05:44, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Where do you get the right to edit my replies on a talk page?

If you have some issue with style, fix the style and leave my reply intact.

--Mactographer 09:42, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

• Try Template:notyours Nardman1 15:14, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

• I have no idea what this template "not yours" is all about. All I saw was a bunch of my text that I quoted from the LOC site removed in the middle of an edit by you. On one side it was there, on the next side it was gone and all that was left was, "Insert the text of the quote here, without quotation marks." And you did both the edits, so it looked like you did it. If Nardman was somehow to blame, then he made it look like you did it and you have my apologies. --Mactographer 09:42, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

• P.S. Another look at Nardman1's memo, and it appears he is tell me I should have used that template. So maybe he isn't to blame for the missing text. But the changes still happened in-between a couple of your edits as linked above. If you can explain to me how it happened between two of your edits and yet you had nothing to do with it, then I will apologize. But for now, it looks like it was a function of your edit. --Mactographer 09:51, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Hectagon

I have listed the shapes at WP:DRV Nardman1 15:14, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

• The people at DRV think it might be more a case for mediation. I will submit it to the unofficial mediation cabal [7] as a first step if you agree. I don't want to get into an edit war with you and I think that would be the outcome without outside help. Nardman1 15:47, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Jag(i)ello

Would you support either Jagello or Jagiello? What other names would be acceptable for you? -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:03, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)

you've been blocked for 48 hours for 3RR. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:13, 12 February 2007 (UTC) I reverted a revert warrior three times; and, after the third edit, made a minor edit to a completely independent section. When a third editor reverted both edits, I accepted the decision on the point of dispute, and repaired the collateral damage. There was no fourth revert. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:08, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I've asked the blocking administrator to respond to this, after which I will review it. Newyorkbrad 17:43, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Naming conventions

If you have a problem with me, it is incorrect to attempt to slander me on a talk page. You have the right, if you wish, to bring up a RfC if you think you have a case against me. So be warned - I will not sit by idly and allow you to slander me on a talk page for a professional discussion. Rarelibra 22:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, all accusations and uncivil remarks in any direction stop immediately. There is no reason for heated name-calling on any page and much less regarding something like a map or a naming convention.

I took a look at the page the two of you are disputing but frankly have not been able to figure out exactly what is being argued over. If this can be put in terms a little more accessible to previously uninvolved editors, I'll be glad to offer my opinion. Newyorkbrad 22:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Newyorkbrad - the point I am arguing over are the constant comments coming from Pmanderson - intelligent insults, comments that are demeaning or condescending, etc. He won't stop. In the Naming conventions (geographic names) area, I decided to give my input and Pmanderson's response was to slander me as an "uncivil" and "profane" editor. If these words have merit, I am asking Pmanderson to call out a RfC. Otherwise, I am asking him to stop such insults, accusations, and slanderous words. If he is mad about something, he cannot take it out by attempting such responses on a professional discussion page such as that with the naming convention. That is all. His comments should remain clean or he should refrain from commenting at all. Rarelibra 21:32, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Waldemar Matuška

If you put {{accuracy}} to that article as a revenge for lost consensus that's not a good way of good faith wikipedian. You did not discuss accuracy on the talk page so I removed that tag. If you wish to re-add it, do it, but please discuss what do you think that is wrong with the article otherwise I will remove it again. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 22:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Consensus was pretty clear, his name is really Matuška. It is the same case as you are not Anďeřson but Anderson. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 23:06, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I think your tag will be removed by someone else, consensus has been set and was clear. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 23:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Tag has been removed by the administrators. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 20:32, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Do as you think, but as wrote by Husond, it is now considered as a vandalism. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 05:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

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Re:Polish obscenity?

That user declares that he has a command of Polish language 'intermediate' and his obscenity is similarly 'medicore' :> 'glupy dupek' is only partially correct: the first part is a mispelling of the word stupid (głupi), the second is correct obscenity for the word asshole. Without going into more details (the user also forgot about declinations), I had warned this user about observing WP:CIV. As I am not involved in this matter (I have never interacted with that user), I cannot sign a RfC but I'd be happy to translate the obscenity and confirm it indeed is one. Also, if that user continues to be uncivil, I'd support blocking that user for violations of WP:CIV/WP:NPA.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  22:42, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

You incorrectly assume about misspellings and definitions. Sorry, but there was no direct obscenity used, nor did anything translate correctly. Because you are pushing this issue after it was already handled, I will assume that you have a personal vendetta against me. Piotrus cannot warn me about something that was already handled and corrected (and warned before). Now I am going to issue you a warning. You will cease and desist against me, as Newyorkbrad has asked you to, or face the same fire. I will not stand for your professional accusations and your intelligent insults against me. So cease this now and go back to constructive edits. Thank you. Rarelibra 14:01, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Responding because my name was mentioned. Constructive edits for everyone, please. Obscenities toward or about other users, near-obscenities, foreign phrases that could be understood as obscenities, all should not be used. Work issues out like colleagues or stay away from each other. And let past incidents fade. Newyorkbrad 14:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

After my recent interactions with Rarelibra (removing warnings from his user page, issuing threats, failing to provide any diffs to back up his accusations) I am now ready to review an RfC of that user if it is ever created and describe his behaviour as I have seen it so far.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  15:32, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Regarding your edits to my userpage, FYI - It's a common misconception that it's appropriate to try to force users to keep some kind of brand of shame on their pages. Please see "User space harassment" in Wikipedia:Harassment, and several threads currently on WP:ANI, e. g. this and this. The templates about not removing warnings, and the block threats, are for anonymous vandals, not for cases like this. I have a right to remove anything I like from my userpage(s), as removing is an acknowledgement of reading it. Just so User:Piotrus understands, his continued involvement on my userpage will cause a violation of 3RR and become reason for being blocked for 24hours to consider his actions. Just so we are also all aware, User:Piotrus is an administrator who is currently the topic of an ongoing RfC for his own actions. Let's not get carried away here. Thank you. Rarelibra 15:43, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2007-02-10_Hectagon

I can help mediate this situation. Can you please leave a note on my talk page letting me know what your current view on the situation is and what your desired outcome would be? Hope I can be of service. Best, JaimeLesMaths ^(talk!edits) 04:57, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your prompt response. Just to clarify, you are in favor of the current status of these articles, keeping them as redirects to and with relevant comments in the Polygon article (and Prism (geometry) article). One question: what part or parts of the definitions did you dispute? What rewording of the definitions would you propose? Thanks, JaimeLesMaths ^(talk!edits) 05:38, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification. I found this page at MathWorld, which appears to be mostly consistent with the table presently included at Polygon. Do you consider that website to be a reliable source? --JaimeLesMaths ^(talk!edits) 06:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, thanks for the information. I'm going to wait for Nardman1 to respond. --JaimeLesMaths ^(talk!edits) 06:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Please indicate if this compromise offer is acceptable or if you would like to suggest changes. --JaimeLesMaths ^(talk!edits) 23:47, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Please stop

Stop making accusation comments that I am suggesting that Wikipedia "lie" to its readers. It is not true, there is no proof, nor does anything I mention in my comment allude to such an accusation. You are incorrect in even attempting to phrase such. Please remain civil in your approach and DO NOT attempt to 'reword' someone's input, like mine. Removing your comments is not 'vandalism' by myself - it is removing incorrect comments. Read my quote - I am saying that a direct translation is incorrect, therefore, I believe we should use the diatrics to be most correct, with a redirect from the non-diatric name. That is all. No suggestion to lie or deceive. Rarelibra 18:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

You do not have the right to offer up "opinion" in the form of accusation. That is presenting a false statement, and in itself, can be removed. Doing so is a violation of WP:CIVIL. Please stop. Rarelibra 18:30, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

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Indian Mathematics page: request for comment

Talk:Indian_mathematics#Request_for_comment:_Reliable_Sources_for_Indian_Mathematics Feedback is requested for a problem on the Indian mathematics page, where two users have a disagreement about what constitutes reliable sources for claims in the article. 19:32, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Cfd #Category:Settlements in Kurdistan

You may want to reconsider your stance, see my reply to you there. Cat ^chi? 13:45, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Subsidizing Newspapers

Jefferson kept an editor of a paper he founded (Freneau of the National Gazetter) on the government payroll, and that is the kind of government "subsidy" it appeared was being alluded to for Hamilton in his article. Hamilton founded two newspapers and wrote for them, so I suppose that can be interpreted as "subsidy" -- do not newspaper founders support their enterprizes?. Patronage certainly holds true by his steering government contracts to favorable printers, but that kind of activity does not appear to be unusual in the US or likely anywhere else in the contemporary period - and continued up through the late 19th century I understand. The implication in the article that Hamilton's actions were unique is misleading. A nice little piece related to this may be found at http://epaper.jdnews.com/Repository/ml.asp?Ref=SkROLzIwMDYvMDkvMTcjQXIwNDIwMA==&Mode=HTML&Locale=english-skin-custom Hope you enjoy it.Shoreranger 02:54, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

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Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Jimmuldrow

Thanks so much for your comment at the above-named page. I have responded to your comment; as I say in my response, I believe you may want to take a second look at the Garrett talk page. Best wishes, and again, thanks for your comment. Hydriotaphia 02:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Number of Tigrinya Speakers

Thanks for responding to the "Number of Tigrinya Speakers" RfC. I've posted my interpretation of your comments. I'd appreciate it, if you indicated to what extent my interpretation agrees with your intention. Thanks. Itayb 08:39, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Azerbaijan (Iran) page

It's ridiculous what some of those editors are doing here: [8] They remove fully sourced information, enforce POV, and remove dispute banners. Can we involve more administrators, as this is not right, they shouldn't be allowed to do this. --AdilBaguirov 15:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I didn't mean to offend you of course. Please do place the disputed tag and make other edits. The reason I replaced the intro paragraph is because the one you had (I didn't notice your name, I paid attention to the content) was the same as from the old version, citing such POV sources as Kavekh Farrokh, etc. I appreciate your involvement and once again, didn't mean to put you in an awkward position. --AdilBaguirov 04:57, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Blocked

Blocked: 48 hours for general edit warring and a 3RR violation on Azerbaijan (Iran). Thatcher131 06:23, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

{{unblock}}

No 3RR violation; three reverts, in dealing with undiscussed reversions which removed sourced information, which is blanking, and a compromise edit. I was attempting to settle a pre-existing revert war. Please note that the block last month was not based on WP:AN3 and was found to be unbased.

I may be sailing too close to the wind, but I don;t think I crossed the line, this time. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:45, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

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Ralph Nader

Hi Pam. Long time, no see. You helped me out with "Democrat Party" and "Democratic-Republican Party" a while back and I'm wondering if you would like to weigh in on an editorial concern at the Ralph Nader article. I put the following in the first paragraph: "In the Atlantic Monthly's list of the 100 most influential Americans, published in its December 2006 issue, the magazine ranked Ralph Nader as the 96th most influential American: 'He made the cars we drive safer; thirty years later, he made George W. Bush the president.'[1]" However, some of Nader's fans want to drop the 17-word quote from the magazine article and just say that Nader was 96th on the list. I think the quote is necessary to explain why he's on the list, but some think it's unfair to Nader. Want to weight in? Griot 20:50, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

New article on Steve Omohundro

I found some new information on Steve Omohundro that was not brough up in the original AFD discussion - 17 publications and a US patent - and thought this significant enough to warrant restoring the article. After restoring it, I made enough edits that I feel it's a new article rather than a restoration (it would have been easier to start from scratch than to restore), so I have removed the CFD tag. However, I wanted to invite you to take a look at the article as you participated in the original AFD discussion. --Zippy 00:07, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Well said

Your WP:ATT poll talk post that ended with "As one of those who both worked on WP:ATT and supports it, I ask you to think again before you keep on with this" was one of the smartest things I've seen said on WP in weeks. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 11:54, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Ron Chernow

I have responded to your comments at Talk:Ron Chernow. Casey Abell 13:52, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I have given in, albeit reluctantly, on the issue of quotes from a two-time Pulitzer Prize winner and from one of the nation's leading book review publications. I believe these quotes accurately represent the critical consensus on Chernow, which has been strongly positive. But I am making a good-faith effort at compromise.

However, I can't understand why you continue to revert the bare mention of DNA research into Hamilton's ancestry. This is not controversial or in any way "hagiographic" about Hamilton or Chernow. The article doesn't praise such research, only mentions its existence, which is a fully sourced fact. I also can't understand why you have reverted the fully sourced and accurate item about the George Washington Book Prize. The article already contains information about other prizes, including the National Book Award, which Chernow has won. And the Wikipedia article on the prize itself mentions Chernow's award. So why can't we mention it in the Chernow article?

I also don't understand your reference to my factual and sourced statements about your Wikipedia record as a "personal attack." This is ironic from an editor who referred to me as "irresponsible" and "dishonest." [9] I only pointed out your record to explain that I did not want the Ron Chernow article to become another example of the edit wars which have led to your blocks, or the incivility and conflicts with other editors which have led to your failed RfA's. I realize that such a record is unfortunate, but it's completely within your power to change the behavior which has led to the record.

This is not easy for me to write, because I strongly dislike conflicts with other editors and I always look for compromise. I have attempted to compromise on the Ron Chernow article, even beyond what I think is justified. Please don't make this into another one of the conflicts which have hampered your contributions to Wikipedia. Your record is strongly positive in many ways, and there's every opportunity for you to work cooperatively with other editors to improve the encyclopedia. Casey Abell 15:43, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

A quick Google search found some independent stuff referring to Chernow's involvement in Hamilton DNA research: [10] and [11], for instance. The item isn't of huge importance, but there's no reason to delete it from the article. There's no excuse for deleting the award won by the biography. Not many bios of founding fathers get a 50K award. Casey Abell 21:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks

The occasion of our private(?) discussion concerning WP:ATT reminds me to do something I have thought many times. Which is to say: Thank you for all the contributions you make to bringing more sanity to Wikipedia. I usually abstain, because I haven't the stomach for it, except for scattered remarks for the WikiProject Mathematics folks. But you have bearded the lions and kept your head. The result is a better product, and a better process. I've noticed, and I appreciate it. --KSmrq^T 22:02, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

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Thanks

Thanks for the fix on "note that". I need to fix that on other pages I was trying to include the regional words on. G** d*** your page is slow with Firefox! :P Icsunonove 23:08, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Bolzano

I think you need to move the talk page? there is a bolzano and bolzano-bozen talk now. Icsunonove 23:28, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Sulla

I've decided to stop pussy futting around and really improve the Sulla article. I am removing gratuitous opinions and unencyclopedic qualifiers. The version Sulla16 keeps reverting to is pretty bad, so it would be a good thing if others helped clean it up too. Sulla16 might eventually realize that he doesn't own the article and that Wikipedia is a collaborative effort. Hope you volunteer! Vincent 05:56, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

French princes

Hello;

I have started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles)#French princes revisited. Would you care to comment? Thanks. Charles 10:38, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Poll

Please stop adding sections, unless you have decided to buck all concensus and ignore the Q1 poll. Also, you can be reported for a 3rr violation. - Denny 16:25, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Very peculiar how you took yourself out of the equation... as if the mess at the poll had nothing to do with you and you were a mere bystander.... ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:49, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Endorse the simple version conditionally

While it's now been lost in the shuffle, I've suggested rather than the verbose question to accompany the simple question, simply having an open end. Ask the simple question and then, without a list, "what arrangement do you prefer?" The workability of this would all be in the instructions. Would you endorse the simple question, if we could properly describe an open end? Marskell 19:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Please move your comment under Discussion, to keep everything organized. --Mardavich 16:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

There different sections for a purpose, discussion should not be taking place under the vote section. --Mardavich 17:00, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

It's not a rule, it's a matter of courtesy to the person who opened the survey and designed the layout. The discussion section was put there for a reason, to keep everything organized. But do as you wish. --Mardavich 17:06, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter: Issue XIII - March 2007

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Your ATT poll !vote

When I refactored all the !votes into sections, I put you in the neutral camp, but I'm not sure that's where you actually want to be. I think this was a mistake actually, as your message seems to be "I could have supported, but must oppose". I'll leave it to you to move it where it belongs if necessary. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 05:06, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

ATT poll refactorisation

Re: ATT Poll My !vote is not broad opposition to ATT, but opposes this merger to its present text. I have classified your vote in the same category; please correct if I am wrong. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:40, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

• Hmmm. We've got "Support some merger, but not this one." and we've got "Compromise/Neutral" - but surely to compromise is also to "support some merger but not this one"? - particalarly in my case, where I've said I'll support the merge but with a few qualifications (or read: compromises) -- perhaps I am mistaken, and perhaps you can clarify what is meant by 'compromise'? In any case, I don't know if "Compromise" should strictly be next to neutral. But overall, the way it was before you decided to rearrange it, was perhaps better. Rfwoolf

• I am less concerned about the merger than about what the policies going into/remaining in effect declare, imply or encourage. Therefore I want vote options that don't "grandfather in" overly-restrictive policies which have not hitherto been adhered to by most editors in practice. Thus:
  1. I oppose wording that authorizes deletion of undersourced content (rather than tagging it) unless it is disputed as inaccurate, libelous, or misleading.
  2. I oppose wording that protects content widely known or overwhelmingly alleged to be non-credible (based on relevant, reliable) sources.
  3. I oppose exclusion from WP:RS of sources that are widely treated as reliable by experts in a field, particularly in obscure fields where sources in English are relatively rare or not updated, even if they are personal websites, Usenet FAQs, conference presentations, or texts that may not meet the expertise in relation to the subject at hand standard because they do not focus exclusively on the subject of the article, such as dictionaries, textbooks, encyclopedias and other survey sources. (And thanx, Septentrionalis, for asking!) Lethiere 11:18, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Arvandrud/Shatt al-Arab

Dear editor,
You recently took part in the discussion of this move request. The format of the move request has been modified, to simplify the discussion and thus help the closing WP:RM administrator.

You are invited to re-state your opinion on the issue, or modify your previous comment, under the new format. - Best regads, Ev 20:04, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Take no notice of me

I take it back, if I annoyed you. I should point out that I am a mere nobody around here, to say the least, and that my comments won't make the slightest difference to how the votes are counted. In fact, I am slightly surprised that anyone read them. qp10qp 23:34, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Poll bias

Over at the ATT poll, I've just flipped the order of the Oppose/Support sections, on the theory that it is heavily biasing the voting. I expect to be reverted within minutes. I'm not willing to violate WP:3RR over this, so additional eyes on the matter would be helpful. My theory is that if the vote is being biased by Support being at the top, it is only fair that they be inverted for the rest of the poll, and if this effect is not happening, the change will have no effect at all, ergo the only reason to revert it is to support bias in favor of Support votes. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 07:54, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Chalkidiki

Regarding this, the tag cannot remain there indefinitely until you get your own way. You'll have to start a WP:RM and if it fails, start another one or accept the outcome. If you want to move it to "Chalcidice", I won't object, in fact I'll support it. However, tags should remain on articles for as little as possible.--Domitius 23:03, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

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isarco

I seem to get much more hits on Google for Isarco than Eisack. Icsunonove 23:46, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I posted mine as well. cheers. Icsunonove 23:53, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

3RR block

Hi. You have been blocked from editing for 52 hours due to a 3RR breach (^{rv1, rv2, rv3, and rv4)}. Please be more careful in the future. Many thanks in advance. El_C 16:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

Pmanderson (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

---

Request reason:

The third edit is not a reversion; and the fourth undoes Rarelibra's fifth exact reversion. See note below

Decline reason:

It was a 3RR violation, valid block — ^High_InBC^{(Need help? Ask me)} 02:56, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

---

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

I have expressed my willingness to undo this edit if it is counted againt the limit. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:57, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Requesting input from the blocking admin. Newyorkbrad 17:06, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, if I get a chance to get an edit in... The same line ("The Venetian name Scutari was derived in antiquity...") was removed in all four instances, so that's a 3RR breach regardless of anything. While I welcome review, no admin should unblock without clearing it with me first. Thanks. El_C 17:09, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

It has always been customary to revert the last edit of a 3RR violation, on the grounds that it should never have been made. As for "Venetian"; yes, I do dispute the propriety of that word, but I offered a novel alternative, which said neither "Venetian" nor "Italian"; the point at issue. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:15, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

What is certain is that it has never been customary to violate 3RR to revert the last edit of another 3RR violator. It dosen't matter if you view it as "novel," you removed the same line four times. El_C 17:20, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

If you unblock me, I will revert myself.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:22, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, naturally you will. And Rarelibra would undo his 3RR-breaching edit if he could. The key with self-reverting is that it can only work before a block is issued. El_C 17:26, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I asked your opinion on the matter before the block was issued; the block was your only answer. You need merely have asked; I expected you to agree that the last edit (as undoing a violation) didn't count. As for Rarelibra: if he is content to undo his last two reversions, I am perfectly content to have him unblocked. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:29, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

If you asked me about it, then I missed it, because I would have asked you for diffs. El_C 17:32, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

This was intended to elicit your opinion; perhaps I should have copied to your talk page, but it didn't occur to me. You were plainly watching this page. The diffs of Rarelibra's actions are on WP:AN3; I'll get them in a minute. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:36, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I was not reading every exchange between you two; it was your responsibility to ensure that I read —and responded— to it. El_C 17:39, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

This block should be reviewed on a timely basis and either endorsed, shortened, or unblocked, as the reviewing admin deems appropriate. I've unblocked this user in a prior 3RR situation so I don't think I should review it myself. I'm going to post to ANI, noting El C's request to be consulted. Newyorkbrad 17:41, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Rarelibra's diffs are here. To summarize: he made three exact reversions, edited the last of them, made a partial reversion, and then made two more exact reversions to the last edit he had made, all within ten hours. He was then blocked. I undid this fifth exact reversion, 15 hours after he was blocked for 3RR; I thought myself right to do so, but offered to revert myself if El C thought otherwise; and am still willing to revert myself. I had only made three edits all told, and believed one of them not a revert. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:55, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Iran War

I could use some help here. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Iranian-American War--Lee1863 15:53, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

RfA thanks from Akhilleus

Akhilleus gets new weapons.

Septentrionalis, thanks for your support in my successful RfA. As the picture shows, the goddesses have already bestowed my new weapons, which I hope to use to good effect. If you ever need assistance, or want to give me feedback on my use of the admin tools, please leave me a message on my talkpage. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:33, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Philip (II) of France

Could you please take a look at the talk page for this article and also Talk:Philip of France (1116-1131). The history suggests that I created the talk page on April 2, 2007. I think that the talk page existed before then, and that I might have mucked something up a week ago. Is it possible that I had the edit talk page open, then moved the article page (with the talk page), and then saved the original talk page with my comment - thus making a mess of things? Noel S McFerran 20:58, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Elisabeth of Bavaria

I agree that we should try to reach consensus on a convention for naming consorts, male and female, of sovereigns and cadets, and I want to be helpful in moving that decision to completion. But I'm confused about the role of this vote in that process: If I vote on this name in isolation and without reference to what I understand to be the applicable naming convention, I don't want that vote to contribute to a precedent on what the naming convention should be because my vote won't reflect all relevant considerations -- I'm either treating it as a "one-off", or I'm applying the "most common name in English" convention, which necessarily yields a vote relevant only to the name in question. But if I vote on it based on all the applicable conventions, one of those is that monarchs' consorts revert to maiden name posthumously.

Another is that conventions are discussed and decided upon at the appropriate page so that the decision is informed by the rules and rationales layed out there. Procedurally, this !vote bothers me because it seems to affirm the rogue tendency to ignore or defy conventions put in place in good faith. That tendency has produced flagrant violations I think should be deprecated, such as Princess Astrid of Belgium, Archduchess of Austria-Este (over-long due to appending obscure title), Ernst August V, Prince of Hanover (use of Roman numeral for pretender), and Archduke Sigismund, Grand Duke of Tuscany (attributes sovereign title to current pretender).

As it happens in this instance, I don't think Sissi has anything like the fame among readers in English that Marie Antoinette has -- ergo my opposition to treating her similarly. Given that I don't think there is, in English, an overwhelmingly popular and acceptable name (or "Sissi" would prevail), I think the next applicable convention should apply, i.e. use maiden style of deceased consort. If I'm to ignore the latter convention, I'm not sure why and I don't know what criteria you're suggesting I apply in voting? Lethiere 20:19, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand why "Use maiden name posthumously" is in the guideline if it was never agreed upon. Nor why anyone would bother to contribute to a guideline if it is not intended to be prescriptive. Your opinion that I misunderstand and (presumably, therefore) misapply the guideline as prescriptive is not helpful because I don't understand the grounds for it. Nor do I respond well to what feel like peremptory opinions & instructions, when I have asked for rationales for any feedback given. Sorry I'm not being more helpful here -- I had hoped to be. Lethiere 20:54, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

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...

I would prefer it if you didn't use edit summaries such as these [12]. You haven't understood what I was trying to say apparently. And I would also prefer it if you didn't judge me so quickly. I just cannot see how, somehow, it could be claimed that the republican revolution of 1923 would be considered as establishing a "new state" rather than "régime change" - thus the "re-capture" argument. There is nothing wrong with discussing this, and nearly all sources out there agree that Turkey is the successor state of the OE, legally, functionally and morally. On historical hindsight, I have yet to see a modern third-party history book which refers to it otherwise. Therefore the "re-capture" argument. Please try to see the finer points of my comments. Thanks Baristarim 06:06, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

your vote

In case you didn't notice the main options are between historical fiction (history with fiction) and plain 'fiction' - which implies no connection to the real account. If you have read Herodotus as you claimed then you must be familiar with the "army of slaves", "led by the whip" versus "free men", "fight in the shade", "molon labe" and similar terminology he uses (most of which is being ignorantly criticised by many). I'm only contacting you because you justified your vote by having read Herotodus. The similarities the storyline has to Herotodus are also noted by various scholars (cited in the article), and it's been precisely the reason I find a purely "fiction" label as undue weigh. So I'm rather amazed by your remarks. Miskin 11:28, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, "based on Thermopylae" is certainly not synonymous to "fictional account of Thermopylae" that you voted for. I don't remember the Spartans advocating anything about democracy in the film. I remember about "free men", which is Herodotus' words, and "an age of freedom", which is directly linked to "free men" and is open to interpretations. It is by no means fictional. Miskin 16:00, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

ATT compromise committee

Just FYI, over at the ATT comm. discussion talk page, names are being thrown into the hat for building a compromise working group. I nominated you for the "neutral" camp, as I thought you were one of the more articulate participants, who genuinely believes that compromise is possible. Without discussion this nomination has been reverted twice (while another has not), you've been shunted into a "reserve" pile, and someone (guess who) has moved a clear ATT supporter into the "neutral" section to pad it out. Thought you might have something to say about that. I'm so disgusted with the farce going on over there I'm probably just going to leave. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 23:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

List of songs containing covert references to real musicians

You may want to weigh in at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 April 15#List of songs containing covert references to real musicians, since you were involved in a previous discussion of this article. - Jmabel | Talk 05:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

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RS for Women Slaves in Islam

Hello, You gave the opinion that Arlandson is not a RS for Islam and reverted edits. Could you point specifically to what parts of Wiki policy you invoked to make that judgment? Please note that Arlandson has written not one, but many articles on Islam. Thanks, NN 06:04, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. I think there are some philosophical issues here. There is of course the academic community that cites its references. Then there are magazines and suchlike, where the style is more informal. I would say an opinion is magazines (especially ones like New York Times or Al Jazeera) are notable and as per Wiki policy belong to Wiki. The fact is that academic opinion treats Islam with kid gloves, hence it is even more important to have the other source (magazines and suchlike) represented. Again, Wiki policy does not make academic sources mandatory. Academic sources are okay, there are other sources that are okay too. NN 04:32, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Regarding "Exploratory Committees"

You're invited to comment at Template talk:United States presidential election, 2008 navigation, on this proposal:

Proposed Deletion of category "Exploratory" and "Declared" for individuals filing with FEC.

And please note this argument on the same talk page. Exploratory equals Candidate.

Best regards, Yellowdesk 07:03, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Help me out

Pam, can you help me with something? Go to Talk:Walther P22#Request for Comment: Walther P22 and state whether you think a mention of the Virginia Tech massacre belongs in the article about the Walther P22, the gun the shooter used. (Hope all is well with you). Griot 23:14, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

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Walter P22

Thanks for hanging in there on the Walther P22 and Glock 19 articles. If you have any trouble with CINEGroup, check out this incident report against him: CINEGroup Incident (archive). MiFeinberg 17:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

3rr? good luck

editing isn't 3rr, learn it. CINEGroup 17:53, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Althing(i)s considered

I just wanted to say my reply to your reply on Talk:Snorri_Sturluson is musing, not argument. It's certainly not enough for me to go adding -i to Althing (or Everything)... — OtherDave 23:44, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Baronets

No trouble at all. After seeing the PIRA vs. Scots feud flaring up again, I'm hoping to develop a mutually acceptable compromise, at least for this particular issue, before user conduct remedies start getting handed out (and it appears they're getting close).

I had to look up the trick with the anchors; see Help:Link#Section linking (anchors). Never had to use it before, but there's a first time for everything. Choess 04:17, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

The Vilnius Issue

I thought it best to inquire here rather than at talk (Where to now?), as some might think it OT. I'm curious what your position is regarding Cracow? When it has been suggested that the German, Krakau, would be historically correct, and a more appropriate designation during the time period that the city was under the Austrian partition, it has met great resistance from some quarters. What in your opinion might justify this position, as the Russian name, Vilna seems to be preferred by you? As for Kraków, why would "Cracow", no longer be the English usage description for the city? Interested in your viewpoint. Dr. Dan 13:23, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

In case you missed it, I place a new but related question concerning the correct name for Cracow on my talk page. Since you've "weighed in a little" on the subject earlier, I thought you might have a further opinion. Dr. Dan 18:14, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Walther P22 disputes continues

Hi Pam. The discussion of whether to include a mention of the Virginia Tech massacre at the Walther P22 article continues. Earlier, a compromise was reached to include a mention of the Viriginia Tech massacre in a "See Also" section of this article, but now that idea is being debated. Care to weigh in? The Walther P22 is being discussed here. Will this nonsense ever end? Griot 16:33, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

RFA thanks

Thank you, Pmanderson, for your constructive comments in my recent RFA, which passed with 86 support, 8 oppose, and 5 neutral !votes. I will keep in mind all your suggestions and/or concerns, and will try to live up to your standards. Please, if you have any comments or complaints about my actions as an administrator, leave a note on my talk page, and I will respond as soon as I possibly can, without frying my brain, of course. Thank you once more, · AndonicO Talk

walther ad infinitum

No. The removal does not carry a taboo just because of who was doing it earlier. I am not reverting to "CINEGroup's version", I am reverting to my preferred version, and under my evaluation of the talk page discussion. Do not treat my editing as anything but my own editing. Talk:Walther P22 shows no consensus for the addition of the content and no consensus for the proposed compromise that you are trying to enforce. Without consensus for either of these content additions, the article reverts to the pre-incident state. That even appears to be the specific outcome of this discussion. It is the responsibility of those who would add content to gain consensus for that content if it is disputed. No such consensus has ever been mustered. The article must default to the pre-VT state. ··coelacan 19:07, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I've requested as politely as possible that you not characterize my edits as acting in support of anyone's version except my own. I am editing the article as I see appropriate. For you to say "If you reverse my edit, done explicitly on the ground that CineGroup's revert war should not stand, then you do support him" is akin to some kind of joke from Wayne's World ("a sphincter says what?") I've stated my reasoning mulitple times now; my version is my version and I do not appreciate being smeared. I supported the block of CINEGroup, and I deleted his talk page to remove harassment, so I'll thank you to stop this association game immediately. As to mediation, I don't know yet, I think it's a little early to jump to that, but I'm not opposed to the very idea of it. I'll wait a while and how things progress. ··coelacan 20:33, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Piotrus

Hello,

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Piotrus. Please add any evidence you may wish the arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Piotrus/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Piotrus/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Picaroon (Talk) 20:49, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Cantor

Hi. I responded to your comments on the Cantor talk page. --Tellerman

Hi again. I responded again to your comments. I won't leave a message here anymore if you don't want. Also, I think at this point we should be moving towards the best way to present the information rather than finding out what the real truth behind Cantor's background is. --Tellerman

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Walther and Glock

Pam--Thanks for your work on these articles. The gun culture crowd is relentless, but we put up a good fight. And I believe you're right, it is censorship on these people's part. I wish they would just come out and say they don't want the VT massacre in those articles because it reflects badly on gun regulatory laws in America. The real debate should be about whether the gun articles should be confined to narrow discussions of the guns' technical qualities. The articles, of course, should be more than that, since this is an enyclopedia, but we were debating idealogues, and that is nearly always a losing proposition. You're the best! Griot 17:13, 2 May 2007 (UTC)Griot

Cantor

Will you maintain the present version of Cantor? If so, are we done? 212.227.102.5

Ring (mathematics)

You may find this to be nitpicking, but I disagree with your latest changes to the article. "Non-unitary ring" should be "Not necessarily unitary ring" if you disagree with "pseudo-ring". Also, the change from sub-pseudo-ring to "subring" is in direct contradiction with the convention adopted within the article itself, since a "subring" is presumed unitary. I don't think it clarifies matters for readers to contradict the conventions adopted in the very article, out of a sense of fairness to people who disagree with the convention. Joeldl 04:28, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Your latest version is fine. Joeldl 05:35, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Bremen or Frankfurt?

Hello Pmanderson! I would like to ask for your reasons for changing the example of a major city in Wikipedia:WikiProject Germany/Conventions#Disambiguation. Bremen is the only settlement (at least in Wikipedia) with that name, and therefore there is no need for disambiguation anyway, like the first sentence in the edited section says. I think Frankfurt instead was chosen as an example because there is Frankfurt am Main and Frankfurt an der Oder, but the major urban center (Frankfurt am Main) is reached directly under Frankfurt. Thanks for taking the time. Daranios 09:39, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Hello there! Thanks for the fast reply. I still don't completely agree with your argumentation, as the first sentence of the Disambiguation paragraph says that no specifier is needed anyway when there is no other place with the same name, which is the case for Bremen. But the formulation seems to have been unclear, so I tried to improve it by taking Essen as yet another example. (Maybe Frankfurt is not the perfect example because of the discussion if it should Frankfurt (Oder) or something else.) I don't always have a knack for the clearest phrasings so maybe you want to have a look at it once more. I guess it is a convention for only a few cases anyway, as we don't have too many "major urban centres" in Germany, but still... Daranios 16:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter: Issue XIV (April 2007)

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Georg Cantor

I don't understand your question, I'm afraid. Aczel says that his mother was probably of Jewish descent; if so, she is likely to have been Jewish in Jewish law, hence so was Cantor himself. Thus we cannot say for certain that he was not Jewish in Jewish law. Do you imagine that you are only Jewish if your mother was a strictly orthodox Jew? That is not the case. If your mother or your grandmother or your great-grandmother was Jewish and you can prove it, then you are Jewish. See for example [13] and [14].--Newport 21:07, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

If you look, the first site isn't a blog. As for the second site, reliable sources do not have to quote references; if they did, you'd get an infinite regression. But look at it this way; if Cantor's mother's mother was Jewish, and she may have been, then his mother was Jewish by Jewish law. Whether she was a practising Catholic is irrelevant; she would not lose her status in Jewish law. If she was Jewish, so was Cantor in Jewish law. It might be simpler to delete the phrase and just note that he was not a practising Jew. --Newport 21:30, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The point is that we have a source that she probably was of jewish descent. To assert therefore that Cantor certainly was not Jewish by Jewish law is to ignore this source. I have no intention of going around inserting into articles that people might be of jewish descent unless I have a source. However, as I say, the best thing is just to delete the phrase, which adds nothing to the discussion.--Newport 21:39, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

DR summary

Currently, I am attempting to summarize each stance. Supporting opinions are not truly relevant yet. I think during the process there is a survey. Let's first agree on what each of our opinions is so we can isolate the disagreement. I notice you are counting support numbers. I do believe some supportive comments arose. You seem to ignore them. Lack of understanding of the priority scale is not appropriate at DR. You must understand my argument and I must understand yours. Please reread the priority scale so you will understand why he is being tagged. I will attempt to reedit without much extraneous stuff you added. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio) 19:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

P.S. I seem not to understand your argument. If the following does not summarize your contention please reedit it and add it back: "Any group of individuals should be able by consensus be able to eliminate banners selectively from talk pages if in their collective opinion it does not belong regardless of their participation in the project. Unsure whether he believe a consensus could change the parameters of a banner template used by a project. (requesting clarification)" TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio) 19:42, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

P.S.S. There seems to be contention about my use of the title Director. If this is part of the DR let me know so we can clearly state both sides of this issue as well. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio) 19:44, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Let me attempt to understand your argument. Do you support or oppose the following statements.

1. Any group of individuals should be able by consensus be able to eliminate banners used by a project selectively from talk pages if in their collective opinion it does not belong regardless of their participation in the project.
2. Any group of individuals should be able by consensus be able to change the parameters of a banner template used by a project selectively from talk pages if in their collective opinion it does not belong regardless of their participation in the project. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio) 23:45, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

1. Is it your position that {{ChicagoWikiProject}} is harmful to talk pages in general or Jon Corzine's in particular?
2. Is it your position that the WP:CCC which governs articles applies to talk pages? TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio) 07:31, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
3. Addendum Is it your position that use of {{ChicagoWikiProject}} states a POV (in a way that controverts policy) such as

1. The subject's relationship to Chicago is or should be important to the subject.
2. The subject's relationship to Chicago is or should be important to the general reader.
3. The subject's relationship to Chicago is or should be important to the Chicago reader.
4. The subject's relationship to Chicago is or should be important to the general editor.
5. The subject's relationship to Chicago is or should be important to the Chicago editor. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio) 15:21, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

My current understanding of your position includes the following (please confirm):

1. Consensus prevails even with respect to use of a project's banner template and without regard to membership in the project.
2. Banner template excess is contrary to conservation of wikipedia resources.
3. Neutrality does not apply to talk pages.
4. Consensus applies to talk pages. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio) 18:59, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Could you state your position on which of the following are valid reasons for a project to attach a banner template to a talk page:

1. By virtue of their editorial interests and resources they are likely to be strong researchers capable of adding significantly to an article.
2. By virtue of their editorial interests and skills they are likely to be strong copy editors capable of refining an article.
3. By virtue of their editorial interests they are likely to be interested in vandalism fighting for an article.
4. By virtue of their editorial interests they want to monitor quality improvements for an article.
5. By virtue of the readership interests (related to their topic) they want to monitor and assist in quality improvements. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio) 19:27, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

None of these, as stated, especially against consensus. All of these are more claims to tag any article in Wikipedia. The only valid reason to use {{ChicagoWikiProject}} is if an article substantially relates to Chicago; and if it does, the tag may be added by agreement of any editors, "members" or not. Nick is probably right that it would be desirable if the project members also intended to improve the article. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:36, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Suppose, for example, a group of University of Chicago students decided they wanted to design bots to fight vandals on all alum pages tagged with {{ChicagoWikiProject}}, would this be a valid reason to tag an article? TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio) 20:01, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

It would be a stupid and mischeivous bot; and any tagging that did not declare its purpose would be disruptive editing. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:17, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

And is this a real proposal, or a mere hypothetical? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:55, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Do you know of any policy page that asserts the proper use or limitation of talk page banners. I have scanned Help:Advanced templates, Help:Template, Wikipedia:Talk page & Wikipedia:Banners. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio) 21:34, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

---

We are making progress on isolating our issues so far. Summary so far of discourse (Please confirm):

Agreed

1. POV issues not considered relevant to the matter at hand as POV not relevant for talk pages.
2. Use of the term Director not relevant
3. Banner template excess is contrary to conservation of wikipedia resources.
4. Banner template usage is desirable if the project members also intended to improve the article.

Contentious

1. Consensus applies to talk pages (including banner templates)(PMAnderson). Consensus does not apply to talk pages (TonyTheTiger). TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 15:46, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Consensus applies double to talk pages! :-P. Anyone can put anything on a talk page, and anyone else can get rid of it if it's not helpful for whatever reason.

Hmm, Note that use of Wikipedia resources is not a concern for wikipedia editors (In part because it is somewhat counter-intuitive. Removing content from a page increases the amount of storage space needed for that page, for instance. Template behavior is downright weird). Editors should just work on making as good an encyclopedia as possible. The poor devs will figure out how to make sure that mediawiki keeps running ;-) --Kim Bruning 18:02, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I am still awaiting PMA's response, but to answer your question, I have never before seen cases (excluding vandalism) where it was considered proper to remove other editor's contributions to talk pages. In fact, I was under the impression that a talk page was where consenting, assenting, and dissenting opinions could all coexist. In a sense the opposite of consensus seems to exist in talk pages because all opinions are suppose to be recorded. For example, if one creates a survey on a talk page, after the debate concludes the majority is not suppose to erase all traces of minority opinion (if I understand talk pages correctly). WP:CON would imply that at the conclusion of a debate only records from one side remain. Please correct me if I am wrong. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 18:05, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, for starters, we do not recognize majorities. Hmm, also, talk pages certainly may be refactored --Kim Bruning 19:01, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Interesting link, but PMA are trying to engage in serious discussion. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 20:36, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

• Well, I thank you, Kim. I am not sure any discussion on premises so far off base as Tony's can count as serious. ;} Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:49, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Is that your best argument by condescention you've got.? I suppose you are attempting to avoid the question I am posing, but in case you missed it I will restate it below TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 20:26, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

---

RESTATEMENT OF DISPUTE PROGRESS AWAITING CONFIRMATION We are making progress on isolating our issues so far. Summary so far of discourse (Please confirm):

Agreed

1. POV issues not considered relevant to the matter at hand as POV not relevant for talk pages.
2. Use of the term Director not relevant
3. Banner template excess is contrary to conservation of wikipedia resources.
4. Banner template usage is desirable if the project members also intended to improve the article.
5. The {{ChicagoWikiProject}} is not a harmful addition to talk pages.

Contentious

1. Consensus applies to talk pages (including banner templates)(PMAnderson). Consensus does not apply to talk pages (TonyTheTiger). TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 20:26, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Proposed naming conventions for Republic of Macedonia

I'd be grateful if you could have a look at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Republic of Macedonia-related articles), which is intended to establish a consistent basis for naming RoM-related articles across Wikipedia. I'd appreciate your views on it. -- ChrisO 00:24, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I forgot about the "Proposed" tag! *blush* -- ChrisO 01:45, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Just saying hi!

Haven't seen you for a while! Cheers! // FrankB 04:30, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Request for mediation

A request for mediation has been filed with the Mediation Committee that lists you as a party. The Mediation Committee requires that all parties listed in a mediation must be notified of the mediation. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Shatt al-Arab (Arvand Rud), and indicate whether you agree or refuse to mediate. If you are unfamiliar with mediation, please refer to Wikipedia:Mediation. There are only seven days for everyone to agree, so please check as soon as possible. -- tariqabjotu 14:38, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

NPOV and naming conventions

Hiya Pmanderson, on balance, I agree with you on the NPOV policy content, but I think the issue of "synonyms" still merits additional attention, because you forwarded a rationale that may not be entirely consistent with a good-faith reading of other relevant guidelines. I feel the current version does not provide sufficient context and may introduce unintended potential for confusion.

I do agree with your underlying objectives as you stated them, however, so my main concern is that the modifications be able to withstand scrutiny should others feel the need to chime in on the issue. Regards. Wikipedia_talk:Neutral_point_of_view#NPOV_.26_naming_conventions. dr.ef.tymac 15:10, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

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Niwa niwa niwa niwa tori ga iru

MailerDiablo deleted the article, but seems to have missed your userfication request. Rather than revert him completely (we can always merge the histories later if this is ready to move back to the mainspace), I've placed the text of the last revision at User:Pmanderson/Niwa niwa niwa niwa tori ga iru. Let me know on my talk page if you have any other needs related to this. Dekimasuよ! 15:21, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Yoghurt

I want to start out by saying I'm really sorry that this happened - I did my best to stop it, but sadly I have been overruled by 4 people who are obsessed with name changing (regardless of whether or not I agree with them), and there is a new debate on the Yoghurt talk page about the move - I just felt it would be best if most people who had voted in the past knew about this.danielfolsom 23:55, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

TFD on Template:European mathematicians

Template:European mathematicians (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

re: badly designed, the box overrides text, at least on my IE computer. Fixed this I think... try again.

More seriously, this appears only on category pages, and should be systematically replaced by Category:European mathematicians or Category:European mathematicians by nationality.

• This is unclear... nothing wrong with an occasional nav box on related material. See Category:Middle Ages. Working as I do on the Commons categories, I can tell you there are quite a few. I think it a particularly good idea to cross-link siblings. See for example Naval ships of the United States where experimentally, we've even crosslinked the sub-cats at ninety degrees, and duplicate that on the commons. (Assuming the ultra-nationalist German clan hasn't been ripping things apart again! <g>) (Sample some others:{{catlst}} here -- a lot will be up cats for the poor customer-readers without benefit of anything but the default skin. Works nice on the commons in particular, where all those images impede navigation!)

• So I said to "Keep -- I fixed up Paul's complaints, and a fair sampling of these links shows it playing fairly pretty where it sits now. Further, If a project wants a tag like this on it's patrol, I have no objection. This one just needed some HTML TLC." // FrankB

• Sorry Paul, but I fixed this up in just a few minutes. It didn't have any margins whatever, so I'd hazard a guess someone is using Opera or Firefox, or is just an enthusiastic beginner and clueless. No shame that. Lot's of people never think to check in another browser, and I find using five isn't necessarily enough for some things.

• Anyhow, I made my own nom, and saw yours. At least that template is well employeed! The one I nom'd was all but unused, uncatted, and had a cryptic name to boot. And wrote out exactly one sentence with three wikilinks. Hardly a good use for templates! Just thought to say Hi and let you know about their new look-- who ever they are! <g>. Cheers! // FrankB 01:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

User:SatyrBot and WP:WPChi

Hi! I replied to a concern of yours on the bot's current project page, but I suspect you may not have seen it. Specifically related to Juan Cole and (before that) University of Chicago alumni.

When a WikiProject asks me to run the bot to place banners on articles, it's my practice to get them to develop a list of categories that they want me to run through. I also make sure the list they come up with has categories that are at least 80% consistent with the project, knowing that this will result in a little bit of "over-tagging". In WP:WPChi's case, they came up with Wikipedia:WikiProject Chicago/Categories. I don't always know the particular project and its scope well enough to tell the percentages, but I do try to go through it. In this case, I removed the railroads that were listed, since most of them had many other cities and towns involved.

I wanted to let you know a bit of my procedure because you've taken issue with the categories Category:University of Chicago alumni and Category:Northwestern University alumni. In retrospect, you may be correct about many of the alumni not having much to do with Chicago.

At this point in time, the bot is done with all the categories that were given to me. However, the project has asked that it do an occasional run-through of the categories to check for articles that have been recently added and don't yet have the banner. What I would ask is that you contact the project and make your concerns known. They're in the process of determining which categories should be in the periodic runs, so your input would be welcome.

I'm sorry if I didn't respond quickly enough - I was on a WikiBreak from April 27 to May 11th with very little Wikipedia access, so many comments slipped by me. Please accept my apologies.

Thanks, and hope that helps explain what the bot has been doing. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 01:50, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Dispute resolution

Let me first state that I am not calling you a racist. You could be darker skinned than me for all I know. However, your refusal to answer the following is very reminiscent of the Ku Klux Klan bubble tests:

“ THIRD AND FINAL RESTATEMENT OF DISPUTE PROGRESS AWAITING CONFIRMATION

We are making progress on isolating our issues so far. Summary so far of discourse (Please confirm):

Agreed

1. POV issues not considered relevant to the matter at hand as POV not relevant for talk pages.
2. Use of the term Director not relevant
3. Banner template excess is contrary to conservation of wikipedia resources.
4. Banner template usage is desirable if the project members also intended to improve the article.
5. The {{ChicagoWikiProject}} is not a harmful addition to talk pages.

Contentious

1. Consensus applies to talk pages (including banner templates)(PMAnderson). Consensus does not apply to talk pages (TonyTheTiger).

”

If you are not familiar with such test, when black were first enfranchised it was not uncommon for the KKK to police the ballot boxes and require registered voters to pass some verification tests. They would make it clear that the tests would be "fair" and "democratic". Then they would asks black folks questions like how many bubbles in a bar of soap. Then if they got uppity about not getting a fair shake they might get lynched by a mob of KKKers, which was of course real fun for the good ole boys. Well in this case, it seems you are quite interested in a fair and democratic WP:DR and even have a veritable mob of people with opinions that may or may not be germane to the issue at hand. However, you refuse to address the issue at hand. If you are unwilling to make a statement about the above quote, I will view your DR willingness as a bubble test DR invitation. I will not be subject to such an invitation. The bot will be running with the alumni categories unless you are willing to make a clear statement about the quote above. You can inform the entire lynch mob of this fact. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 21:17, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

P.S. as an aside, here is an example of what a WP can do for an article that has little direct importance to it. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 18:32, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

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Poll on Bratislava

Thank you for your participation in the discussion regarding the use of the names "Bratislava" and "Pressburg" on Talk:Bratislava. I would like also to invite you to a poll that will show us the real support for the two alternatives. I hope the poll will help us reach consensus and close this case so we can move on to other improvements of that (hopefully) future featured article. You can access the poll at Talk:Bratislava#Poll. I look forward to your opinion. Tankred 05:55, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Bertrand Russell GA/R

I have nominated Bertrand Russell for WP:GA/R due to inadequate referencing. I hope the article gets the attention it deserves during this process to retain its quality rating. Please see discussions at Wikipedia:Good_article_review#Bertrand_Russell. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 16:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Medusa

Good catch on that link on Medusa -- I saw the perseus.tufts.edu link and thought it must be froma professor or something. You're right, it's just a student, and one using some pretty horrible sources too. DreamGuy 06:04, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Shatt al-Arab RFM

If you're not aware already, you need to follow a few procedures (i.e. e-mailing Daniel about something) in order to get the ball rolling on the request for mediation, since it apparently will be occurring on a private wiki. See #Decision of the Mediation Committee for more information. -- tariqabjotu 21:10, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

reported to ANI

Hello, I have acted on LuciferMorgan's challenge to report his behavior to ANI. Arcfrk 08:22, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

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WikiProject Measurement

On the basis of the discussion at WikiProject Council, I have been BOLD and set up WikiProject Measurement. I hope you are still interested and that you will join the discussion as to how to progress from here. Best wishes, Physchim62 (talk) 11:32, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Calhoun

Well, one way or another, I would of not fixed the Calhoun thing correctly :/. Just in case there's some confusion, I didn't actually make the initial review to give the article GA status in the first place, I was just responsible for the increadibly long lists of bullet points at the bottom of that GA/R. I don't know if the article has really changed that much since that GA/R, some of the new parts of the lead do actually seem POV in favor of the confederacy. (Some terminology used to describe confederate battle strategy seems too flowery, I had the same criticism the first time late in the article when it was describing how the battles mostly panned out) I didn't know how bad the article may of had POV disputes, I didn't see much going on when I checked its history, but like I told the guy who fixed everything up, articles on topics like this require quite a bit of effort to ultimatly raise up to FA standard, having to deal with a broad topic plus having to deal with historical revisionists might be causing them problems. Homestarmy 21:05, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

God Hates Us All

The "over referencing" has been dealt with. M3tal H3ad 03:11, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

FYI

Hopefully this is the last time this has to be stated. GA/R is not a dumping ground for editors to drop their articles that are not up to GA standard so that others can do the work for them. It is not our responsibility, our duty, to make necessary changes to an article so that it meets criteria.

It is also unproductive for you to troll nominations with your derogatory comments and unjustifiable votes. You, obviously, are pissy about the review(s) of your article(s), and I feel for you. But incessantly harassing us is not going to make us fix any article(s) for you. We review articles. We don't overhaul them. Although, I have done so for many editors who have been both mature and respectful regarding the reviews of their articles; for those who show a genuine motivation to bring their articles to GA quality rather than those who just want the title so they can brag about it without actually bothering to do any of the work.

For the MASSIVE amount of time you spend complaining and jacking with our process, you could have had your article(s) up to FA standards by now, much less GA. I have had it with the accusations and sophomoric comments about my participation in the GA/R process. I know the criteria, trust. And I base my reviews off of them. My reviews are some of the most thorough reviews given for both GAC and GA/R. If you don't want to acknowledge and respect that, then so be it. But you will stop with the insulting comments, or this is going to administration. Refrain from contradicting all of my GA/R recommendations for the sake of being a dick. If you're not going to base your votes off of the criteria, but simply vote the opposite of me, and follow it with some worthless drivel, your votes will be stricken. LaraLove^T/_C 06:05, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Re: Information

You are not basing your votes on WP:WIAGA. You are contradicting votes that call for an article to be delisted based on the failure of several different criteria. You justify these votes based on the lack of specification for a specific format for citing references, completely disregarding all of the other issues the articles have. You're acting like a little boy who isn't getting his way, pitching a fit in the grocery store because he can't have some candy! Your behavior in the GA/R process is shameful.

As for calling the reviewers evaluators to "get rid of the ambiguity", I don't see anything ambiguous about "reviewers". We review articles. We evaluate them. It's all the same thing. This is just another example of you causing problems where there are none. Frustrating those involved for the sake of being a dick.

And I don't care if you unnecessarily assumed that you had to achieve GA before applying for FA. That's not my concern, particularly considering I don't think you'd be able to do it. You seem to be completely incapable of accepting criticism, totally unwilling to cooperate with editors who attempt to help you improve your article, and embarrassingly disrespectful of others regarding their work on Wikipedia.

What I say to "Wikipedia:WikiProject Article Style and Form", is that it doesn't matter what it's called. You're whining about the process. Changing the name isn't going to change the process. Proof that you are either just rocking the boat, or you really have no idea what you're doing. LaraLove^T/_C 18:05, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

If you can show me where it requires either ((tl|citeweb}} or the many-to-one style of footnotes, I will change my !votes accordingly.

WP:WIAGA#Notes, note 2 reads "Unambiguous citation is best done through footnotes or Harvard referencing at the end of a sentence (see the inline citations essay). It is highly recommended that the article have a consistent style of footnoting."

Cite web is an easy way to achieve complete footnotes. When Harvard referencing is used, cite web is proper for consistency. Additionally, we don't require cite web, we recommend it. LaraLove^T/_C 06:48, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

"WP:WIAGA does not require it; nor in fact does it recommend any means of inline citation."

• WP:WIAGA#Notes, note 2 reads "Unambiguous citation is best done through footnotes or Harvard referencing at the end of a sentence (see the inline citations essay). It is highly recommended that the article have a consistent style of footnoting." --LaraLove^T/_C 03:28, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

(unindent)I honestly don't understand what you want. What are you talking about? It makes a recommendation and leads to essays that explain, in detail, how to do it. What more do you want? I offer to help those who need it. When I do GAC reviews, I do some for them so they can work off of them. I don't get how we can make it any easier. It's the internet, we can't hold editors hands. I suppose I could draw out the process on construction paper using some of my kid's crayons, but I really don't think these editors are as incapable of doing these things as you'd like to pretend they are. Let it go. You worry about your articles and let others worry about theirs. If these aren't issues that you specifically are having issues with, let it go. LaraLove^T/_C 19:16, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

"In short, I would like GA to function tolerably. But what I want is to move GA to a name where sensible authors of good articles will feel free to ignore the lot of you. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:39, 4 June 2007 (UTC)"

Noted. With that said, I'm taking this to WP:WQA. LaraLove^T/_C 19:47, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Stay off my talk page.

please respect poll results

hello there Pmanderson,

I reverted the move on Meran based on the poll results that were held Talk:Merano#Straw_Poll and the policy that was established to use the name of the majority-speak for the article of a place in South Tyrol, see Bolzano, which was not touched by me. I am asking you to respect poll results if a majority was established, even if it is not to one's liking. Please assume good faith and I hope we can cooperate on good terms. Sincerely Gryffindor 14:25, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your message. Well I am glad we can talk instead of engaging in some edit-tit-for-tat. I hope this issue will not cause any trouble, however we had a poll with results, plus there is a guideline that we should use the majority-speak for place names in South Tyrol. Back then I was in favour for using double-names for all places in order to be fair to every language group and be most neutral, however that did not find a majority and I was pretty much left alone with that idea. Therefore it was changed despite my opposition to have only one name, to the one used by the majority of the population. So I accepted that policy in good faith, which is why I accepted Bolzano as well, something that stays under the guidelines and has not been changed by me. sincerely Gryffindor 15:48, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I am aware that the case was not cut-and-clear, but I thought that is why we had a poll, correct? Gryffindor 16:48, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Since the case was not clear, that is why we had a poll. I happen not to be the only one who thinks this, I am articulating what other users also thought about this move. What would your proposal be, to use the name that a minority of the population uses over the name of the majority? Gryffindor 17:31, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

On Trentino and Tridentines

Indeed the Consensus page clearly states that Wiki isn't "a majoritarian democracy". But then, I find it odd that after the vote the same is contested as not "a process of 'testing' for consensus"; in this case, 5 out of 9 is a 55,5% majority - and I agree it's hardly a plebescite, however I believe it should be taken as indicative of something.

On the topic, I have to wonder exactly what's wrong about Trentino. As the Province itself declares here (last three odd lines), "Regarding the name Trentino, it is not possible to clearly indicate a precise date for the establishing of the use. After 1803 the term came to be used not only geographically, but (also - Trid.) as a social reality identifying the territory and its inhabitants". What I'm driving at is that Trentino isn't a mere administrative division, but more, primarily a coherent entity superseding that. A historical region would be perhaps the correct term, much like Friuli is an entity within Friuli-Venezia Giulia, and is both peculiar within, and older than it. That's what the hyphen is for: to mark that two realities are put under the same "cap", so to speak. I may add that this is even more the case of T-AA/ST, where the two provinces wield a level of power and autonomy much higher than any other province in Italy except Aosta (well, no surprise there).

And by the way, is the outrage caused by the fact that Trentino isn't used in English, or just for the sake of keeping the list of Italian provinces neat and tidy? Tridentinus 17:40, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Just tried googling for Trent, results were: 1 - Trent University, Ontario; 2) a blog by some Trent; 3) Nottingham Trent University; 4) Trent Barton Bus Services; 5) Wikipedia's Trent Reznor page; 6) fnially, the Catholic Encyclopedia entry for the Council of Trent. Instead, Trento yields the entries for Trento city, and Trentino, followed immediately by the page in English maintained by the local university.

Maybe it's high time for me to add something to my user page: I'm writing from Trento, am an Italian speaker of Tridentine ancestry from as long as I can see (1489). This said, the Trento page could be moved to Trent anytime for me, and I wouldn't protest at all - it is the traditional English name. And in German it's Trient, by the way.

And I can see why 5 out of 9 isn't that impressive; but pretty please, then how is Wiki to make a decision, and who's to ratify it? (Edit to add: the crux is, how is this elusive consensus to be recognized?) Tridentinus 18:34, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I see what you mean, and I hope it won't be necessary to assure that I'm not an edit warrior! ;) However, supermajority should be tempered (IMHO) by the recognition that minor issues won't attract a large number of editors to the debate; it's not as if on the table there was the choice between, say, Britain and United Kingdom. The small scale of an issue may well paralyze any decision, forcing less prominent pages fundamentally top follow what the first editor chose (I'm talking generally here, I realize what's good about Province of Trento, mind).

And hey, I may lose the debate, but surely I can defend my position, right? :D Tridentinus 18:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

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The thing is

Hi. The thing is that requiring me to redo the citations is basically me redoing the entire article, since I would have to revisit each single page from the sources. I am not even entirely opposed to doing this at some point, if need be (even though there is an explicit guideline somewhere that citations should not be modified by other users unless wrong or incomplete - presumably, this applies to asking someone to redo his citations); interestingly, I would not even have used that system of citations were it not for the fact that people tend to change the citations system I use in other articles to something more or less similar to the one in Sebastiani.

However, ever since this matter was first brought up, you will notice that some users have begun seeing "many" other "flaws" in the article, so I may just be changing the system for nothing. Dahn 09:01, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Margaret Thatcher FAR

Allow me to explain why I said they were accuracy problems as opposed to POV or OR problems. A number of editors who are pro-Thatcher (incorrectly) think I am an Irish republican, and would immediately scream "bad faith" had I said it was pure POV. If the entire section could be sourced from one source (ideally complete with some negativity for the sake of balance) I wouldn't necessarily have that much of a problem with the section, though I'm still not convinced about the existence of it. However as the information may well have been cobbled together from more than one source, it's problematic. But as I'm unaware of where the information came from, I thought it best just to go for the all-encompassing accuracy to be on the safe side, and let other editors add their own analysis. Thanks. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 22:10, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

No, I didn't take it as a criticism so no problem. I personlly agree with your summary and would have made something similar myself, but I chose to take the path of least resistance. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 22:24, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Excellent short articles

Sure. Hey, elaborate on the MfD page and suggest a move! -- Rmrfstar 01:38, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry

Not guilty. Ednan 08:37, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

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GA badness

I noticed at WP:RFA you vaguely referred to WP:GA as something that might contribute negatively with respect to adminship. Please explain because I do not see your point. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 19:35, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

• I'm also curious as to the editors supporting IvoShandor that you don't trust. Are you talking about anyone from WP:NRHP? --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 22:02, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
• You were pretty much correct as to what I meant by my remarks - as we all know, RfA is not the place to open up these wider topics. This discussion, to which neither of us contributed, might help with the explaining, or not. Johnbod 23:44, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

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RfC on Gryffindor

best idea i've heard in quite some time. sign me up Icsunonove 07:44, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Meißen

What I meant is that "Munich" is not just a French or English spelling of "München", but a different name. It is clearly related to the German name, but it's a different word, and a different name. "nord" is not a different spelling of "north". The French can pronounce "Vienna", and it will sound similar to the English and the Italian pronunciations, but they choose to call it "Vienne", which is a different name (and it sounds different). Back to Meissen/Meißen: Meissen is another way to write Meißen, but not a different name IMO. But maybe we're getting into too much detail here. Markussep ^Talk 19:30, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

"Vandalism"

I don't mind your having different opinions to mine, nor even your expressing them, but undoing changes made in good faith as "vandalism" [15] is going too far. I accept that the article almost certainly will be changed back eventually, but until then, there is no need to change the spelling. Furthermore, my edit made other, albeit subtle, changes, such as removing full stops from the ends of captions which are not full sentences. "Germanspeaking" is not a word, but your careless reversion has resulted in its renewed presence. Please think more carefully before making such sweeping changes and such bold and unfounded allegations in future. The move itself was being bold rather than an attempt to undermine consensus; vandalism it most certainly was not. --Stemonitis 21:13, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

My warning

I'm sorry for that warning, I understand the situation now, and I will be more cautious when reverting pages. You may consider my warning as unwritten. Arienh4^(Talk) 15:46, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Wheeler

Let me know if there are specific situations where I can help. For now, it looks like List of Republics etc. are under control. --Macrakis 16:05, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Welsh Peers deletion

I do not understand your nomination for the deletion of the Welsh peers artical. You have failed to notify the author of the page according to the guidelines, as well as comment in the discussion page for the artical. Already, I feel that we will need official mediation in this dispute, as I feel the merit of the artical rests with the fact that these titles are within the territorial geography of the consitutuent country of Wales. The artical states this clearly and does not propose to identify the ethnic origion of the title-holder. Please explain your reason for deletion more clearly. Drachenfyre 06:28, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Request for Mediation

A Request for Mediation to which you are a party was not accepted and has been delisted. You can find more information on the mediation subpage, Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Welsh Peers. For the Mediation Committee, ^demon[omg plz] This message delivered by MediationBot, an automated bot account operated by the Mediation Committee to perform case management. If you have questions about this bot, please contact the Mediation Committee directly.

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== Sparta as a republic ==

Hi. A user has complained at the pump about unreasonable deletions of his addition of Sparta to the list of republics. Would it be appropriate to explain your reason on the talk page? Thanks. --Kevin Murray 20:15, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry, I didn't see the topic Sparta at the talk page and didn't pick up that you have already addressed the issue. --Kevin Murray 20:18, 17 June 2007 (UTC)