Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

Welcome — ask about reliability of sources in context!

Before posting, check the archives and list of perennial sources for prior discussions. Context is important: supply the source, the article it is used in, and the claim it supports. Additional notes: RFCs for deprecation, blacklisting, or other classification should not be opened unless the source is widely used and has been repeatedly discussed. Consensus is assessed based on the weight of policy-based arguments. While the consensus of several editors can generally be relied upon, answers are not policy. This page is not a forum for general discussions unrelated to the reliability of sources. Start a new discussion

Subject of an article critiquing his bio on YouTube as a source

This has to be the strangest sourcing I've seen and I'd like some additional opinions on it: Recently an editor added this youtube video as a source for a date of birth where the subject of the article (Dan Avidan) appears to critique the Wikipedia page about him. That's got to be the weirdest WP:SPS source I've run across. Do folks feel that this is a reliable source as used here? Toddst1 (talk) 14:57, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

I think we can say it is RS for his saying it is wrong.Slatersteven (talk) 15:07, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

• Yes, as this is a verified account (tick mark next to GameGrumps, and Dan Avidan is one of the duo in GameGrumps). Per WP:ABOUTSELF the subject may be used for info such as DOB (assuming it's in there in the 13 minutes(4 parts - 79 minutes in all - listening to it). Actually a great way to correct one's Wikipedia's article while providing a RS for the article. Kudos to the article subject.Icewhiz (talk) 15:10, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
• To a limited degree, yes. Simple facts that make no claims about third parties might be judged reliable. Date of birth can be cited to self-published sources, for example. If the subject makes exceptional claims, obviously that's not going in the article. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 15:40, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
• What Ninja said. The 'limited degree' when it comes to age\DOB is that people in media routinely lie about their age (usually to appear younger or just to obfuscate it). If there is no contradictory information, it can be used as a self published primary source. How was the birthday sourced previously? Only in death does duty end (talk) 00:28, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

• There was no birthday in the article previously. Someguy1221 (talk) 00:35, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

• Then there is no issue. Altho why he would want his birthday in the article is beyond me. But as a SPS from what is clearly the subject, and with no contradictory info, it's fine. Only in death does duty end (talk) 00:38, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

• I agree with the above, though my main reason for commenting is to say that, generally, YouTube videos from reliable sources in which the article subject comments on their Wikipedia article are excellent sources for the subjects on themselves. In principle, they are even better than text sources insofar as verifiability goes given how nigh impossible it is to fake a voice or video of the subject. Back in June 2018, I added one such source to confirm and expand Samuel L. Jackson's biography. There's actually an entire video series by GQ called "Actually Me" in which celebrities "go undercover" in various websites to comment on information about them, including Wikipedia. From the couple I've watched (I intend to watch all the ones involving Wikipedia and use them as sources, eventually), the series is courteous enough to not actually submit the vandalism on Wikipedia that they show in the video, despite simulating pressing the "Publish changes" button, which can be confirmed by checking the contribution and page histories of the accounts and pages shown in the videos.
  Frankly, YouTube sources are underused. Usually, they are poorer in quality and more difficult to verify than text sources, but reliable YouTube sources do exist and can be great sources for those willing to take the time to watch the video, note the timestamps, and transcribe the statements. When it comes to sources like the latter and the Avidan video, they are basically standard autobiographic sources—for YouTube-published interviews, standard interviews. So long as they pass the usual sourcing and verifiability criteria, the fact that they are in videographic form does not matter much. {{Cite AV media}} exists for a reason, after all. With that said, great find! —Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 08:29, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Disagree that we should use Youtube more. Ugh. This is a scholarly project, not part of the blogosphere. Jytdog (talk) 02:08, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

    I much prefer "scholarly" sources over YouTube videos any day, and I hope that one is found anytime I (or anyone else) ever consider using YouTube as a source. If there is simply no better source and the YouTube source passes all pertinent policy and guidelines criteria, however, then I think using it to help further Wikipedia's purpose is better than excluding it. Sometimes, some information is only available—or at least accessible—through YouTube, such as certain interviews with reputable secondary sources which would be uncontroversial if in text form. When that is no longer the case and a better source is found, I definitely encourage replacement.

    With that said, I disagree that Wikipedia is "a scholarly project" except in the broadest of definitions. Most of us are not scholars, some of us don't even have secondary school diplomas, and few of us believe Wikipedia is a reliable source. We may summarize scholarly sources, and write in a desert-dry scholarly tone, but this project seems generally in the "popular (as in the masses) non-specialist" part of society, the same part that comprises our readership. But perhaps I misunderstood you.

    Regardless, I think we can both agree that YouTube sources rarely percolate into even questionable source status and that, in general, the answer to "Is this YouTube source reliable?" is a very probable "no in most to any contexts". It takes a very competent and experienced editor who is familiar with the rules to know whether a YouTube source is acceptable and when to use it, and even then it is difficult and unclear (as evinced by this discussion, started by one of the top 500 most prolific editors). For anyone who is new to Wikipedia and its sourcing rules, YouTube as a source should be avoided until that changes. —Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 03:12, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

• Like any WP:BLPSPS, ok for simple, uncontroversial facts. Beyond that, no and hell no. What a nightmare this would open up if we forgot that basic classification.Jytdog (talk) 02:07, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Crayola crayon colors

There is currently an RfC at Talk:History of Crayola crayons regarding whether or not History of Crayola crayons should include a list of Hex/RGB/HSV color values for each crayon. Part of the question involves the verifiability of these values: Newer colors are sourced to http://www.crayola.com/explore-colors.aspx while older colors are sourced to "Color values estimated using swatch of original crayon." Do these sources meet Wikipedia's verifiability requirements? Note that the same sources are also used at List of Crayola crayon colors. –dlthewave ☎ 02:40, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

As has been stated repeatedly in this debate, crayons are a reliable primary source for their own attributes, such as their size, appearance, and the color of their wax, in the same way that a book or a painting or a statue is a primary source for its objectively verifiable qualities. Illustrations representing those colors are entitled to the presumption that they accurately represent the thing depicted, unless there's some evidence that they do not. Anyone can look at a swatch of a crayon color and compare it with the illustration to verify whether the hue, saturation, and value are reasonably described by the illustration. To use Wikipedia's language on the subject, any educated person with access to the source—in this case a crayon, a swatch of wax from the crayon, or a faithful reproduction of such a swatch—is able to verify the color without specialist knowledge, simply by visual comparison. However, any reader can easily determine the attributes of a swatch of color using common and abundant apps or desk accessories to sample swatches depicted on-line. Such tools require no specialized knowledge, and vary only to the extent that slight variations due to the thickness and natural variability of the wax and manner of digitizing the swatch make them approximate; but so long as this limitation is clearly stated in giving an approximate value, there should be nothing wrong with giving a value approximating the color, and indicating what the values of the color used to illustrate it are. RGB, HSV, and hexadecimal color codes are nothing more than three ways to depict the same colors, each of which has its own use and value to readers, and all of which are determinable through routine calculation—which by definition is not original research. They are precise mathematical equivalents of one another, and listing them separately makes the color tables sortable.

Beyond all of this, however, I think it worth noting that there seems to be a concerted campaign to expunge topics related to Crayola and Crayola crayons from Wikipedia. On July 22, six articles related to these topics were nominated for deletion, chiefly on the grounds that lists of, discussion of, and depictions of Crayola crayons and related topics were either "fancruft" and thus not notable, or fell afoul of WP:NOTCATALOG. When these arguments were rebuffed, the deletionists began to argue that none of the sources were reliable, and that most or all of the colors should be eliminated as original research. Three of the six articles have been deleted, and two of the remaining ones are the subject of lengthy debates that would, if the arguments of the deletionists carry the day, be reduced to little more than stubs. The arguments have been carried over from AfD to article talk pages to here; and every time the debate reaches a standstill a new "survey" or discussion topic is added with the same goal: eliminating as much data as possible, not because any of it has ever been disputed by the people seeking to remove it, but because the sources and methods of illustrating the colors can all be excluded, even though they seem to be perfectly reliable. Nobody has yet argued that you can't tell what color a crayon is by coloring with it, or that the swatches made from crayons don't accurately depict them, or that the research done by the expert on the topic (an external source, quoted and documented by published third-party sources) is in any way inaccurate, or that Crayola's own nominal colors as depicted on their web site don't accurately represent the colors of their crayons. In other words, neither the accuracy of the sources, nor the reasons for believing them to be accurate, nor the accuracy of the illustrations depicting the colors, nor the accuracy of the color codes describing those colors has ever been disputed, yet they're all on the verge of being swept out of Wikipedia en masse, despite the apparent ease with which all of the information can be verified by "any educated person with access to the source", without any evidence—or even the allegation—that the information or the sources from which it's drawn are inaccurate. P Aculeius (talk) 04:35, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

I think that "no" is an accurate response to everything you just wrote. Guessing the precise coordinates of a color from a photograph is going to be influenced by everything that went into that photograph, and the process of scanning it to digital if it started as something else. It's absolutely original research. You can state with confidence what the color is in a specific digital image, but that's it. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:03, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Colour disclaimers are a common feature of websites: wool, paint, blinds. It's easy enough to use tools like Pixie to find out the coordinates of a colour, but colour disclaimers by manufacturers point out that computer monitors, photographs etc can vary considerably and do not always guarantee that what you see is what you get. The values given for the Crayola crayons have been added in good faith, but they are a form of WP:OR unless they come from Crayola directly.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 05:21, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

An illustration created for Wikipedia is entitled to the presumption that it accurately represents the thing depicted, unless there's some evidence that it doesn't. The fact that it's impossible to guarantee a 100% match between additive and subtractive colors doesn't change the fact that it's possible to illustrate one with another, the same way that a digital photograph of a solid painting can still be an accurate illustration. Otherwise, we'd need to delete every photo of a painting on Wikipedia, or include a disclaimer about the colors! But speaking of disclaimers, if you read the articles in question, you'll see that the distinction between additive and subtractive colors has been clearly stated, together with other factors that could preclude stating that the illustrative swatches are perfect matches, ever since the present tables were designed some three years ago. The problem was known, anticipated, and accounted for at the time. The same issue didn't preclude Crayola from creating its own digital swatches to illustrate around a hundred of its colors on its "exploring color" page; those swatches seem to be definitive as far as 1, the "official" digital equivalents of the colors they represent, and 2, the fact that digital equivalents of Crayola crayon colors can be established.

I'll also note that while monitor settings can affect how individual readers perceive values such as "#FF0000", they don't affect the objective attributes of the color, how it's displayed by a web browser or what RGB/HSV/Hexadecimal values it's measured at. Those will stay the same no matter what brightness setting a monitor has. I'd also note that even monitors are designed to show as consistent an image and color palette as possible, with the only setting regularly changed being brightness, and that usually within a limited range. So while it's possible for the appearance of crayon wax to be affected by thickness, lighting, paper, digitization, or simply natural variation of the wax (although presumably the quality control process in manufacture is meant to minimize this), an illustration of the color can only go so far wrong. As long as the inherent variability and impossibility of one exact color being "definitive" is clearly stated by the article, an image that reasonably approximates the color produced can be used to illustrate it, and can still be verified—or refuted—by anyone simply by comparing the illustration with a swatch of the actual crayon, without falling afoul of Wikipedia's policy on original research. P Aculeius (talk) 12:31, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

WP:OR applies only to Wikipedia itself. Research presented by a reliable external source other than Crayola itself would presumably be acceptable. If this material was published on CrayonCollecting.com itself, there probably wouldn't be a problem given that Ed Welter seems to have been acknowledged as an expert on the subject. --tronvillain (talk) 14:39, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

The RGB/HSV/Hexadecimal codes represent the digital swatches used to illustrate the crayon colors, and thus are self-proving. The real question is whether the illustrations fairly represent the approximate color of the crayons, something that anyone can verify by comparing them against swatches of the original crayons. Mr. Welter's article depicts nearly all of the colors no longer produced by Crayola, and anyone can compare the colors depicted with those used to illustrate the colors in question on Wikipedia. I believe that comports with Wikipedia's standards for verifiability. P Aculeius (talk) 13:41, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Here comes the science

It is impossible to match subtractive colors with additive colors. If Crayola says that a particular RGB additive color is a close match to the particular subtractive color of a crayon, we can include that information, but it really needs at least a footnote explaining that it is impossible to match subtractive colors with additive colors. There are a lot more subtleties to this; see Color. Color model, Color space and Gamut.

Related question: what is the source for the RGB values shown in Pantone#Color of the Year? --Guy Macon (talk) 05:48, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Related: User talk:Guy Macon#Impossible colors: --Guy Macon (talk) 05:52, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

TheChels.info

This site clearly fails RS, as it is a fan wiki. If there any way of running a bot to remove it, and then blacklisting it to prevent it being used again? GiantSnowman 15:52, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Do you mean like WP:BLACKLIST? -- Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 17:49, 10 August 2018 (UTC) (please  mention me on reply; thanks!)

That's the one, thank you! GiantSnowman 07:38, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Har’el: Palmach brigade in Jerusalem, Zvi Dror (ed. Nathan Shoḥam), Hakibbutz Hameuchad Publishers: Benei Barak 2005,

Does Har’el: Palmach brigade in Jerusalem, Zvi Dror (ed. Nathan Shoḥam), Hakibbutz Hameuchad Publishers: Benei Barak 2005, qualify as a RS on the 1948 Arab–Israeli War?

It is used extensively in the article on one operation, namely Operation Ha-Har.

Since it is in Hebrew, I cannot read it, but I cannot find any relevant academic qualifications when I google Nathan Shoḥam or Zvi Dror. To me it looks like an unscholarly account of the Palmach. Comments? Huldra (talk) 20:46, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Reviewd here. Ok publisher. Probably OK for biographical info and basic details (e.g, that such and such was published, such a command was given, etc.). It is not a military history.Icewhiz (talk) 21:14, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

What are the academic qualifications of Zvi Dror and Nathan Shoḥam? Huldra (talk) 21:45, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

this is the author, hewiki. The author is an established non-acadmic military historian, with multiple titles. This book specifically is biographical, not a military history.Icewhiz (talk) 21:57, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

So in other words, not a RS on Operation Ha-Har. Agree? Huldra (talk) 22:06, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

No, I do not agree. This is a reputable publisher, and an award winning military historian. The book itself is a collective biography. It should be OK for bio details and basic info.Icewhiz (talk) 22:16, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Totally disagree, for an article like Operation Ha-Har. "Award winning military historian" is not the same as an academic. After all, this is a field with a zillion academic sources. But again, lets hear what other editors say, Huldra (talk) 22:49, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Actually academic sources are not so easy to find for all military operations - which is quite evident at Ha-Har at the moment - which outside of the very short lede does not use a single academic source. If you had 3-4 INDEPTH high quality academic sources covering the same detail than it would be easier to advocate replacement. Quality wise, the book by Zvika Dror is better than a modern secondary piece in a reputable newspaper. It is not as good as an academic source. I am a supporter of WP:HISTRS, however it is not policy yet and it too would not totally preclude non-academic sources which can be useful too.Icewhiz (talk) 05:03, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

We regularly use non-academic sources in ARBPIA area.For example articles from Haaretz. --Shrike (talk) 13:37, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes, Shrike, but only for contemporary articles, not for historical articles unless for example Haaretz is hosting a historian like Benny Morris or Tom Segev. The source can't be used unless the relevant information is cited from a reliable secondary or tertiary source written by a competent academic historian.Nishidani (talk) 18:54, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

The Publishing house has a web-site here.Davidbena (talk) 19:07, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Avi Shemmi (Schmidt), Friends Speak About Jimmy (5th edition), HaKibbutz HaMeuhad: Tel Aviv 1958, p. 200 [Hebrew title: חברים מספרים על ג'ימי] (Yad Tabenkin Archives, Testimony of Danny Agmon, 16-12/52/194)

Is

Avi Shemmi (Schmidt), Friends Speak About Jimmy (5th edition), HaKibbutz HaMeuhad: Tel Aviv 1958, p. 200 [Hebrew title: חברים מספרים על ג'ימי] (Yad Tabenkin Archives, Testimony of Danny Agmon, 16-12/52/194)

a RS on the on the 1948 Arab–Israeli War?

It is used in the article on one operation, namely Operation Ha-Har.

Since it is in Hebrew, I cannot read it, but I cannot find any relevant academic qualifications for Avi Shemmi (Schmidt), Huldra (talk) 20:53, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Please follow the guideline of this board.What information its used to source?--Shrike (talk) 21:04, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Several items in the Operation Ha-Har article, do you want me to list them all? Huldra (talk) 21:17, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Reliable for attributed witness stmts. See hewiki on editor, and "חברים_מספרים_על_ג'ימי"hewiki on book, Father edited it, various friends wrote down their testimony. Reputable publisher and well known book (multiple edition). So definitely reliable for primary stmts by fighters/commanders who penned chapters or segments. Not a secondary source.Icewhiz (talk) 21:24, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

So in other words, not a RS on the article Operation Ha-Har. Agree? Huldra (talk) 22:07, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

No, I do not agree. RS policy does not work that way. This would be a reliable source for an attributed statement to someone. It would not be a RS for most other stuff - we should not use this unattributed.Icewhiz (talk) 22:13, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

I do not agree that a primary, nonacademic source can be quoted in an article like Operation Ha-Har, even with attribution (unless, of course, it has been quoted by an academic source). But lets hear what other people have to say. Huldra (talk) 22:45, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

We generally do not use PRIMARY sources (which by definition are not academic analysis). However that is not so much a RS question. This source could be used for an attributed quote and little else - same as Glubb. Some of the writers in this book are more relevant to Ha-Har than Glubb - however both should be used apringly and attributed - if at all.Icewhiz (talk) 04:48, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

I will note that the article at present also uses a book by John Bagot Glubb, A Soldier with the Arabs, as a source - which is probably only OK for Glubbb's views.Icewhiz (talk) 22:22, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

John Bagot Glubb is "slightly" more known than "Jimmy and his friends." But I agree, Glubb, if used, should be used with attribution, Huldra (talk) 22:45, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd really want to know specifically what it is being used for, but I'd think generally no. So I'll admit I haven't read the book, but based on the article section on it, the book is compiled from interviews, correspondence, and Jimmy's personal writings? So basically the whole thing is primary sources. I don't see why it would be used except in an article on ג'ימי שמי himself. I mean, even if an academic publisher had printed and published a pile of soldiers' letters, that doesn't make them reliable sources. Articles are supposed to be based on the secondary analysis of experts, after all. Someguy1221 (talk) 00:43, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Primary sources can be still user in the article per WP:PRIMARY

Its reliable source for the testimonies --Shrike (talk) 07:48, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

• At the moment is used in combination with another book to stitch a story together (this book about playing the sound of machine guns, and another book about the effect that noise had). This is an obvious SYNTH violation. Zero^talk 14:34, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Actually, two sources speak about the very same thing. One is a Secondary source, while the other (that which is in parentheses) is a Primary source.Davidbena (talk) 19:11, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Is Punk Globe a reliable source?

It has its own Wikipedia article, sure, but it's pretty stubby and not well-sourced. From the looks of it, the article also appears to have been created in January 2008 by a user who has a clear undisclosed conflict of interest with the magazine. From all my searches, the magazine has been cited a small number of times, and links to the site are found throughout the project, but no discussion appears to have occurred yet about the reliability of Punk Globe (front page, index). Is it? What about when establishing notability, particularly in within music?

The website and magazine has existed for decades (and clearly shows it!); it has a dedicated staff of writers, editors, photographers, and others; all content appears to be controlled and filtered by that staff (i.e., no user-generated content); and it is still regularly updated (with the exception of its blast-from-the-past 20th-century website style). I have no clue about the credentials of these staff members or whether they are even paid. I can see how this might be passable, if only for interviews, but vaguely comparable sources appear to have failed in the past. Thoughts? —Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 23:27, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

I seriously doubt that a self-described Fanzine can be viewed as a "reliable source." Collect (talk) 13:49, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Usable with caveats. It's definitely a cut above the everyday "fanzine" put together by somebody in their basement. I'd say it's OK for basic info like band X released single Y, or band A played at venue B on date C, or direct quotes from musicians about their music. But it shouldn't be used controversial biographical information or other sensitive purposes. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 14:25, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

• More reliable than InfoWars. Ian.thomson (talk) 14:29, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes but so is my dog. He gets peer reviewed. On point, I would say reliable for interviews etc and non controversial material. Only in death does duty end (talk) 20:22, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

is Popbuzz.com reliable?

On the article Daniel Doheny, a Popbuzz.com article was being used to give his birthdate and age. However, two other sources at the same article contradict him being born in 1997: one from a well-known daily Vancouver newspaper, The Vancouver Sun, which lists him as having graduated from a Vancouver-area high school in 2008 and another from a local theatre program, Bard on the Beach, which lists him as in college in 2013.

As a result, I edited his age here. It is sometimes being reverted to the 1997 date based on the Popbuzz.com source, so I'd like opinions as to their reliability on this kind of information (actor birthdates). —Joeyconnick (talk) 03:32, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Your edit is wrong. The source you have given doesn't say he graduated from high school at 18, so we can't put that. You can however use that as a source in the article for claims that it actually makes. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 12:14, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

References to songs, images, how-tos and similar on YouTube, Vimeo, a Web page and similar

The above noted content does not represent or substantiate an opinion, fact, but represents itself.

I recently added to a page on Raoul Wallenberg SONGS section 5 songs about Raoul Wallenberg. Wallenberg, There is a man , Raoul we thank you, The Rescuers and Louise and Marie which I feel merit this. I don't know if the songs are referred to in any external document. The songs were removed with a revert since they are not independently referenced.

This presents a general problem since these days much quality content is posted on-lime without reviews or endorsement by "reliable sources". In fact, aside from science and similar journals these days the concept of reliable sources is questionable. For example CNN and FoxNews often (mostly?) offer point-of view vs. purely fact based content. Same for the major newspapers.

The problem of valuable content possibly not independently reviewed etc. extends also to science, technology and similar on-line content. I recently saw two excellent explanations about "Quaternions" involving 3 distinct imaginary numbers i, j and k which have important applications in physics. and . I have no idea who the first presenter is or if his presentation is referenced anywhere. Still, based on understanding the math and common sense I'd surely want to use the video as a reference in an article on the topic. The second reference is by a very bright postdoctoral physics student at Cambridge U. I don't know if her presentation is reviewed anywhere, but would certainly assume she is worth quoting on a Wikipedia page solely because of the quality of the presentation and the fact that she was accepted to be at Cambridge.

Would appreciate guidance on this matter Emesz (talk) 07:17, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

References

Is The Globe Newspaper Zambia A Reliable Source ?

The Globe Newspaper(Zambian) Publishes both Hard copy newspapers and their online edition, i need your input on accessing whether it can be considered a reliable source on wikipedia see http://theglobeonline.news/entertainment/mic-diggy-apologies-to-slap-d-on-znbc-radio-4s-hip-hop-eardrum/ Regards

Some context is necessary here I think. The article appears to be recounting a feud between two musicians and the subsequent apology one made to the other. Is this source being used at an article referring to one of the involved parties?Simonm223 (talk) 14:01, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Simonm223 Yes, i was considering using it on the article Mic Diggy and also as WP:MUSICBIO criteria 11 Has been placed in rotation nationally by a major radio or music television network. is it can be the strongest claim to notability (and also MUSICBIO criteria 2, though there's no currently accepted chart for Zambia). The article was deleted before i could access this.41.77.149.190 (talk) 06:47, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

If you are trying to establish notability for a musician, and you haven't previously brought this to talk at the article or it's associated WP:AFC or WP:AFD I'd suggest that'd be a good place to start. I can't find enough information on the Globe Newspaper Zambia to confidently comment on whether it's a reliable source, but I'd say that, assuming you've not already done so and been shot down WP:BOLD would apply here.Simonm223 (talk) 12:08, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Simonm223 one of the AFD active participants advised, i cite this reference, and see how the community reacts, and the AFD admin also thinks this is probably a reliable source. He didn't exactly reverse the deletion and i am not an admin so i can't. What would be the best step? recreating the article or ? 41.77.149.190 (talk) 12:29, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

If there is an AFD, you'd post that you Oppose deletion on the grounds of notability in a media source and provide the link. Then participants in the AFD can discuss whether they believe it imparts sufficient reliability to warrant retention of the article in question. But even if the source is reliable it might still not be sufficient to demonstrate notability per issues like WP:BLP1E. Again, I don't really know the situation that led you to the Reliable Sources noticeboard. However, the RSN can't override a consensus decision on an AFD discussion; if this is subject to a concluded AFD proceeding and the page was deleted, and if you believe you now have sources to demonstrate reliability you might consider WP:AFC and making your case there. If there's a current AFD in progress I'd suggest you pitch the source there and see if it floats.Simonm223 (talk) 12:37, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

ETA I followed your IP address back to the concluded AFD. It's done. The page is deleted. If you believe there should be a page for this artist, I'd suggest taking the source to WP:AFC as per my previous discussion, as well, and this is important, as providing a link to the closed AFD so that people can see the discussion there too. If there's consensus at WP:AFC that the new sources warrant inclusion then a new page could be created. Simonm223 (talk) 12:40, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Simonm223 Thank you very much that was useful information.41.77.149.190 (talk) 13:03, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Encyclopedia of the Peoples of Asia and Oceania

• Source Encyclopedia of the Peoples of Asia and Oceania by Barbara West Google Books link
• Article Rouran Khaganate
• Content ...was the name of a state established by proto-Mongols, from the late 4th century until the middle 6th century.citation
• My concern is the author (Barbara West) is a social anthropologist:
  • "West, who holds a Ph.D. in social anthropology, defines a people based on shared language, ethnicity, nationality, tribe, or religion. Ancient peoples may also be classified by archaeological complex (shared material culture)."[1]
• So does her book pass as a reliable source for history and language-related topics? --Wario-Man (talk) 07:14, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

• Note: It is an encyclopedia, and Barbara West is merely the editor. Question for Wario-Man: Do you have any reason to doubt the accuracy of that encyclopedia entry, regardless of who wrote it? Softlavender (talk) 07:37, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
• Note 2: Nothing on page 687 of that text mentions a Khaganate or any kind of state. It is only about the Rouran people. So it seems like you would need a different source to cite that there was an actual Khaganate and when precisely it existed. Did proto-Mongols even have Khaganates? There's no mention of that in the Khaganate article. Softlavender (talk) 07:50, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Unless there a good reason to doubt the name or content i'd consider that encylopedia not an optimal but a sufficient source in general, but you can probably find better ones. If Khanate/Khaganate is not explicitly mentioned, then of course the encyclopedia is only good for the name Rouran. However a quick look at google books quickly yields other (scholarly) sources using the name (see [2], [3]). So the name if fine and you could use any of those 2 sources (or others) to source the full name.--Kmhkmh (talk) 09:01, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

The use of khagan as a title is also supported in the body by the Rousset cite. -165.234.252.11 (talk) 16:57, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

THEM Anime Reviews reliability

Upon revisiting Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Anime_and_manga/Archive_65#THEM_reliability, T.H.E.M. Anime Reviews seem to have been used in some books and editorials. However, the website is currently run by hobbyists with no notable credentials and longevity is not a factor in websites used as valid sources. It also originated as a student-run organization from Arizona State University. Carlos Ross is one of the only known notable members who has appeared in press segments but he is no longer affiliated with the website. Perhaps at the time of review, this could be considered a valid source, but not by today's standards, especially when more industry-related resources are available. (Basically, the notable alumni of T.H.E.M. Anime Reviews seem to be valid sources, but the website itself should not be.) Please advise on this. lullabying (talk) 17:13, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Are they still being referenced by other sources? It seems that they qualified as an actual reliable source some years ago, but things change as personnel change. If secondary reliable sources still quote THEM nowadays, I'd say it's still OK. ~Anachronist (talk) 17:20, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

If the status of the website did change then it wouldn't effect the anime that was reviewed by the former staff. The status would be changed to "situational" in which reviews from the website up to x date would be considered usable. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:34, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

I agree with this point. I think it'd be best if we specify up to which date and personnel reviews from them should be allowed. lullabying (talk) 17:44, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Formalizing the addition of the Washington Post to Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources/Perennial sources

I know that the Washington Post is reliable and frequently used on Wikipedia and wish to add it to Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources/Perennial sources. Can I go ahead and add it, or do I need to start an RfC here to satisfy the discussion requirement? --TheSandDoctor ^Talk 19:55, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Go for it. That's what everybody's been doing so far. GMG^talk 19:58, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

RfC about the reliability of The Verge as a source for use in articles relating to tech, science, culture, and cars

Is The Verge generally considered a reliable news source for use in articles relating to technology, science, culture, and cars? --TheSandDoctor ^Talk 20:13, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

• Yes for technology, science, and cars. A quick check on Google News confirms The Verge has been sourced by unambiguously RS outlets on these topics (including Forbes, TIME, and the AP) indicating existing RS are satisfied with its veracity. In addition, it has a gatekeeping process, a physical personality, and is not primarily involved in persuasive or advocacy communication. Culture is a broad topic that could encompass just about anything but I would generally say yes to that, as well with situational qualifications. Chetsford (talk) 00:58, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
• Generally yes is this RfC out of the blue? or is there prior discussion regarding this topic that we should be aware of? Their Ethics Statement page seems to indicate a good editorial policy, and media bias fact check indicates that they have good factual reporting but that they have a centre-left bias (like most media outlets). I'm not seeing any other outlets accusing them of 'fake news' either.[4] Generally I'd consider them reliable for technology, science, and cars. As far as 'culture' goes, I would probably be careful to attribute anything they said that might be impacted by their political bias, though I would still consider them a reliable source (perhaps WP:RSOPINION when it comes to some political coverage). — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)} 02:03, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

  @Insertcleverphrasehere: You are correct that this is out of the blue. This source isn't like The Washington Post (see above), so figured that an RfC would be the best way to (hopefully) gather wider community consensus either way. --TheSandDoctor ^Talk 06:47, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

• Depends on context - they seem a tech pop culture site, with opinions and sensation. A bit light on facts rather than being biased, and it specific topics in these fields rather than generally informative -- so it may not be appropriate for a specific context, or may not be the WP:BESTSOURCE. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:29, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
• Generally yes for the topics of tech, science, culture, and cars, although I would qualify that as "pop" culture. They have a reasonably good editorial policy and reputation for fact-checking. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:10, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
• Generally yes as per ICPH and K.e.coffman. Established and relatively-reputable tech news source with clear editorial structure, fact-checking policies, no particular reputation for sensationalism or gossip-mongering... though as with many tech blog-type sites, we should be careful with posts that might seem overly promotional or based mostly or solely on press releases. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:00, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
• Yes – Many technology articles I've come across on that site are regurgitated or corroborated in other reliable sources, such as AnandTech and Forbes. They are generally well written and highly accurate. I can't personally vouch for other topic areas such as culture, but I have no reason to be concerned. Throwing my hat into the 'yes' column doesn't mean I wouldn't suggest to an editor to bring any specific examples to RSN if they question one from Verge: all publishers/sites can have a few bad apples from time to time. --GoneIn60 (talk) 07:28, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
• Comments I don't believe this question is answerable as asked. And while it is debatable (and is being debated) how much prominence should be accorded to an essay that summarizes RSN's prior discussion of sources "that are frequent topics of discussion regarding their reliability and use on Wikipedia", starting discussions/RFC's solely to generate such discussion, goes against the purpose and capabilities of this noticeboard. Therefore I request that this RFC be withdrawn. Abecedare (talk) 19:38, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

I disagree. The question is mostly answerable, though it probably would have been better to ask "Is The Verge generally considered a reliable news source", and it seems that !voters have responded to this error by captioning their !vote with 'generally' instead. Having a list that summarises RSN discussions is useful, and having discussions to add to that list is also useful. A lot of users that frequent this noticeboard would have used the verge before, or seen it used, and have an opinion on it. This is the place where it is going to be best to ask a question like this. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)} 00:14, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Clarified per suggestion. --TheSandDoctor ^Talk 06:41, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

• Unanswerable and this should be withdrawn by the proposer. Some pieces might be reliable for some specific kinds of content. It is not reliable for any WP:Biomedical information per WP:MEDRS and is unlikely to be reliable for anything scientific. Some pieces will be opinion and only reliable if attributed to the author. This should be pulled as it is too general. (If the question was meant to be, "Is The Verge generally unreliable?" the answer would be "no", but that is not the question. Jytdog (talk) 01:57, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
  • I would argue that MEDRS overrides the reliable nature of any source when it comes to something doing directly with human health and medicine. So when people ask "is X generally reliable", this is not in any way implicit to override what MEDRS says. And of course, every source may have individual cases that make it unreliable, and we are presuming that that case-by-case basis is implicit when one asks "is X generally reliable". --Masem (t) 02:05, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
    • Yep, but people often read "science" broadly to include medical things. That's why I directly brought that up. :) In any case questions like this are a waste of time; as I noted we can sometimes say "generally unreliable; if used must be attributed and there needs to be some very good reason to use it" (a la Daily Mail) but it is impossible to answer the question posed. Jytdog (talk) 15:12, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
• See the top of this page. Article. Material to be included. Source. All three things are required to determine reliability. Any pop-culture source will be all over the reliability scale depending on what material it is being used for and where. I would also add that after long experience, when someone asks a general 'is source X reliable' it tends to turn out there is an article somewhere where someone is questioning that source. It makes it easier for everyone if editors just followed the damn instructions at the top. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:18, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Is "The Space Gamer" a peer-reviewed journal?

In a recent AFD an editor suggested The Space Gamer, an early 80s magazine on fantasy games like Dungeons & Dragons, was a peer-reviewed journal. On the basis of it not having a process of double-blind review, being indexed, or being sponsored by an academic publisher, I don't believe it is. However, out of a preponderance of caution, was wondering if others could offer some input on this question. If there's a consensus that The Space Gamer is a scholarly journal, and I have misinterpreted it, I would like to amend my !vote in the aforementioned AFD. Chetsford (talk) 00:53, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

• Topical RS, not scholarly' - my impression is that it was a semi-normal magazine, and would be reasonable RS within it's topic field. But it seems in the category of a general magazine, like Time, or The Atlantic, or Popular Mechanics rather than an academic journal or the journal of a society. I believe they had editorial oversight and did print corrections, so could be a RS if the context is something they covered. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:39, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
• RS for games, not an academic journal (even if it had a peer review process - one would need to look at the identity of the reviewers). For Wiki notability - a review there would definitely be significant for establishing notability (assuming independence of the product from the magazine - which in most cases was the case).Icewhiz (talk) 07:02, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

No it is not a peer reviewed journal, but then neither is the Times. But is did have some editorial policy and staff. So it would be RES for gaming.Slatersteven (talk) 09:44, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

This satisfies me; thank you Slatersteven, Markbassett, and Icewhiz! Chetsford (talk) 19:01, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Which of the sources on this google book result considered reliable?

[5]. Looking for references for Ultra high-net-worth individual.--Prisencolin (talk) 03:51, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

You should start by simply looking at who the publisher is for each book. Looking at the first page of results, there are several books from Wiley, one from Harvard University Press, and one from Springer. All of those would probably be presumed reliable for most purposes absent evidence to the contrary. Others might be reliable, at least for finding significant opinions, depending on who the authors are. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:11, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Aside: The hyphenation in the article title needs to be fixed. Either Ultra-high net worth individual or Ultra-high net-worth individual (see sources, google ngram etc for which is more prevalent). Ditto for High-net-worth individual. Abecedare (talk) 06:01, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Is an image upload site a reliable source?

This is being claimed to be a reliable source for adding an entry to List of oldest living people. It is merely an uploaded image from another, unnamed, source. As such there is no way of assessing the reliability of the original source. Given the nature of the image there appears to be no straightforward way of even translating what is shown. Does such a source pass WP:RS? I would say not, as we have no way of verifying if this is real, false, altered or whatever.Slatersteven (talk) 10:31, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

No definitely not a reliable source.--Kmhkmh (talk) 10:36, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

I find it hard to imagine a worse source than that image. I know it was provided simply as a convenience link, but @TFBCT1: needs to include a proper citation if he wants to even discuss that report. Someguy1221 (talk) 20:10, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

No, I don't want to discuss the issue any further. Even my point is lost here. Which was that in the past we have accepted information on these Prefecture reports as valid sources on the longevity pages in that Japan has provided credible Prefecture reports on their oldest residents for over 110 years. So the information presented is likely accurate, however it has now been pounded into my head that 'said information' cannot be used if downloaded as an image from an unknown party to a website. Message received.TFBCT1 (talk) 23:59, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Source can't be accessed from the EU

I'm dubious about the content @Wesley Craig: recently removed and @NZFC: restored at Proud Boys,[6][7] but I'm not in a position to really discuss it, since I got this when I attempted to access the source, the Wisconsin Gazette: "451: Unavailable due to legal reasons. We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact news@wisconsingazette.com or call 414-961-3240." First time I've been stopped by GDPR. I can read the big American newspapers with no trouble, indeed I've got a digital subscription to a couple of them. But maybe shutting out EU will be the next big thing? Anyway, I'm posting here mainly to see if anybody has a comment on the GDPR tripwire, but a comment on the source I can't see would also be welcome. Bishonen | talk 09:11, 15 August 2018 (UTC).

Had this happen a lot with certain newspapers in the USA. But no I would say not being able to access it is not a valid reason for exclusion, just ask them to post a quote on the talk page.Slatersteven (talk) 09:14, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

I've had this happen a lot. Perhaps the only good thing that could possibly happen here with Bloody Brexit is that we could abandon the effing stupid eurolaws about data and shit and allow Search results to be honest, or as honest as a giganticorporation can manage, and Merkian newspapers not allowing people in the mother country to read their news. sigh. -Roxy, the dog. barcus 09:40, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

• @Bishonen: Use a free proxy or archive.org. wumbolo ^^^ 09:44, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

UTC)

I didn't have problem accessing it and from my glance it looks like a legitimate source. The article is one on Proud Boys as a whole and one of the parts of the article was this "The Proud Boys also have a “no wanks” policy urging members to avoid masturbation and pornography to motivate them to get “off the couch” and meet women." which matches what is in the article. However since reading the about us on the page, I'm not sure if it is reliable or not so happy for others with more knowledge to advise.NZFC^(talk) 09:46, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

the GDPR tripwire or similarly paywalls as such are no reason for the exclusion of sources or to doubt them. There is are requirement on sources to be online or accessible for free. However if you have reason to distrust the content, authenticity or proper use of a source, you cannot access yourself, then you can ask other involved editors for details or copy or ask at WP:RX. If you don't want to pursue the issue yourself, simply post a message on the article's discussion page and leave it other editors to pick it up eventually.--Kmhkmh (talk) 09:51, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

While they have this on their About us page "The Wisconsin Gazette is Milwaukee’s most honored alternative publication. Our mission is to: help build a strong, informed community; promote social equality and justice; support immigration and electoral reform; expose government secrets and call out political corruption; celebrate and support the arts; and foster appreciation and respect for the state’s extraordinary natural resources.". They do have managing editors, editor in chief etc and a circulation of 29,500 copies, distributed every other week. NZFC^(talk) 09:54, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Not sure why are you telling me this. I didn't assess Wisconsin Gazette myself, I just pointed out what to do in GDPR and paywall cases (and that they as such of have no bearing the reliability assessment of a source). Btw. the mission statement is mostly meaningless for assessing reliability.--Kmhkmh (talk) 10:08, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Sorry Kmhkmh, was trying to discuss like a talk page and just go after the next person, wasn't really directed at you but more at this whole conversation. Thanks for your note about the mission statement too. NZFC^(talk) 13:06, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

• Several people seem to get from my post that I want to exclude the source, or that I think it's untrue that it says what it's supposed to say. Not at all. I've no reason to doubt the reliability of the Wisconsin Gazette, or to doubt that its article says what is claimed. I just wanted to see for myself whether or not the text of it gives a good reason for including the content in our article. Like, whether it makes the content appear WP:DUE — you know, to evaluate how the source is being used. @Wumbolo: Thank you, but you're not speaking my language. Imagine that you're explaining it to your mum. Bishonen | talk 11:27, 15 August 2018 (UTC).

A source which can easily be accessed using a free proxy (which you can easily find on Google) should not be treated any differently from other sources. It's not dead, rather it's in a "coma" - when (and if) the website becomes GDPR-compliant, the link will become freely accessible again. wumbolo ^^^ 11:42, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

The Wisconsin Gazette isn't the actual source. The story is a reprint of a piece originally done by Wisconsin Public Radio, an affiliate of NPR. This bumps reliability up by a notch or three. Here's the original. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 11:38, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Shock Brigade Harvester Boris, I have updated on the page to the original source as per your link. NZFC^(talk) 13:06, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Last time I checked you couldn't access the LATImes or the Chicago Tribune, two major US newspapers. I use a VPN but man does it slow down my PC! Doug Weller talk 14:01, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

• @Bishonen: You may be able to access the same Proud Boys article at the WisconsinWatch, The Capital Times, or the Wisconsin Public Radio website. Given the article's provenance (it also won an award from the Milwaukee Press Club), I don't think there is much concern about its reliability, although due-weight issues may exist about the particular content. Abecedare (talk) 15:06, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
  • I see now that User:Shock Brigade Harvester Boris had already provided the WPR link. A small clarification: the story is not original to WPR or any of the other "publishers". It is produced by Wisconsin Center for Investigative Journalism, which is a (high-quality) non-profit, investigative journalism outfit that prouces such investivative pieces but instead/in-addition to publishing on its own niche website, offers them to its affiliated partners that have a broader reach. See ProPublica, which follows the same model at a national scale. Abecedare (talk) 15:17, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Library of Congress Name Authority File

Is this sufficient for the birth year of a BLP? Eg this page? Doug Weller talk 12:14, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

That LoC page indicates VIAF 100653927 as one of its sources. The VIAF 100653927 page indicates Wikidata as one of its sources. So (alas the downside of becoming a more widely accepted source by reputable organisations) the LoC page on Manuel da Silva Rosa can not be used as a source for anything, per WP:CIRCULAR.

However: a viable solution can be found on that person's Wikidata page (i.e. Manuel da Silva Rosa (Q10324599)). On that Wikidata page GND 142124524 is given as reference for the person's birth date. The WP:CIRCULAR policy recommends to *not* use the page of one of the WMF projects as a reference, but to use the source it presents (if it is reliable: GND is) as source for the English Wikipedia article directly. So, using GND 142124524 as a reference for the person's birth date should normally be unproblematic. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:30, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

• Actually that page indicates this as the source. See images, author bio. Confirms birth year. I would just use that book (authored by the subject) as a source for the date rather than messing around with un-user friendly database entries. AFAIK, when it lists 'exact matching data' it means other databases with the same data, not that the data (from those databases) has been used to populate that entry at the Library of Congress. Usually whats used to populate it is listed under 'sources' (which leads to the above book). Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:32, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

  Well, that's a WP:SPS then: depends on what you want to use it for, e.g. as a WP:ABOUTSELF source it doesn't prove "notability". GND, as a secondary source (or: arguably a tertiary source) is generally less problematic in various contexts. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:46, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

• For the purposes of birth year its fine. Its an author bio in a book they wrote. I wouldnt use it on anyting about Columbus for reasons too long to go into here, but for basic (non-puffery) biographical info about the author its ok. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:48, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

alien-ufo-research.com

I am pretty convinced that this is not a reliable source. It seems to be a repository of user-submitted stories. Quotes from its front page which also demonstrate that they're not independent: If you have had any type of experience with Aliens or UFO's it's very important that you report that data Here so we can archive and investigate it and make it readily available to anyone who wishes to know the truth., Since the dawn of time itself we have been visited by UFO's and Aliens. The reason I post here is that I would like other editors to also assess it, so I have an RSN entry to point at when removing references to it in existing articles (it was very convenient when doing cleanup work related to abovetopsecret.com). Thanks, —PaleoNeonate – 01:24, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Is a blogpost a reliable source?

On July 2, WP:INVOLVED administrator USER:Doug Weller posted a long addition to the Bat Creek Inscription page, relying as its source entirely on a WP:RS/SPS self-published blogpost by Jason Colavito, at [8]. Weller’s addition to the page is at [9].

I have discussed the issues at length at Talk:Bat_Creek_inscription#Changes_of_2_July_2018. Rather than participating there, Weller has announced over at WP:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Talk:Bat_Creek_inscription that he has withdrawn himself from the discussion on the relevant Talk page.

So my question for RSN is, does this self-published blogpost constitutes a RS? If not, I will institute a Edit Request to remove it, since, having published four articles on the subject, I am considered a connected author and am not supposed to be making substantial edits.

As I indicated on the Talk page, I would have no objection to including Colavito's blogpost under External Links, as the criteria are much lower for ELs than for Sources. HuMcCulloch (talk) 02:45, 17 August 2018 (UTC)