User talk:Newslinger/Archive 2

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Hunter Street

You said no consensus, but there were five supports, including me, and only three opposes. From what I understand, consensus doesn't have to be unanimous. Amaury • 03:44, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Hi Amaury, although there were more supporters in Talk:Hunter Street (TV series) § Requested move 9 June 2019, requested moves are discussions and not votes. It's also not unusual for proposals with 5 out of 8 supports (62.5%) to be closed as no consensus.

The discussion focused on whether Hunter Street (TV series) is the primary topic for the term Hunter Street. Examining the arguments in detail:

• Usage: As you and the other supporters have mentioned, the TV series currently has the majority (90%) of all pageviews for the term Hunter Street. However, the opposers believe that the pageviews are inflated because the series is actively airing, and that its proportion of pageviews will decrease significantly once it's discontinued.
• Long-term significance: There were no arguments made in favor of the TV series's cultural impact. The opposers noted that the three streets named Hunter Street have existed for much longer than the TV series has.

I don't see consensus for or against the requested move from the arguments presented in the discussion. In the future, when the cultural impact of the TV series becomes clearer, it will be easier to determine whether this move is warranted. Feel free to submit another requested move when you think it's time for a reassessment. ​— Newslinger talk 04:22, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

What template should I use in this case?

Hello, I'm contacting you as a member of notability and reliability projects I believe they are relevant in this case. I am not new to Wikipedia but I don't have much experience in English Wikipedia in particular so I hope you could help a bit. I am looking for a template to use for a statement in an article that *is* sourced but the source is of questionable reliability and also questionable notability too. A guy on his youtube channel said that one author considers another author's books to be plagiarism, and it's given as a source for a statement that said basically this, in Wikipedia's article. I cannot use {{fact}} because technically source is given, can I? What template would be appropriate here to mark the statement in question as questionable? Here's the talk page where I explained the issue in more detail. I'd be greatful if you could redirect me to appropriate Wikipedia's rules/accepted practices page for this situation or help in any other way. Thanks in advance! --Nomad (talk) 14:08, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Hi Nomad, you're right that {{fact}} wouldn't be the right template here, since a source has been provided (even though it's low-quality). The video is produced by a YouTube (RSP entry) channel named The Rageaholic, which is a self-published source because it's one person's own production. Here, you could use {{sps|certain=y}} to mark the citation inline, and {{self-published}} to mark the article (Elric of Melniboné) or section (Elric of Melniboné § Books).

However, I would actually go one step further and just delete the claim. This is because our verifiability and biography of living persons policies allows us to remove claims that are not adequately sourced. It's strongly recommended to remove contentious claims related to living people, such as the one here, when they are unsourced or only supported by low-quality sources (including self-published sources and questionable sources).

We have a wide variety of cleanup tags available for marking content that needs attention. See the list of templates at Template:Citation and verifiability article maintenance templates and the list of inline tags at Template:Inline cleanup tags. Thanks for asking for clarification, and please don't hesitate to ask again if you have any other questions about editing. Cheers! ​— Newslinger talk 22:35, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks a bunch! That's super helpful. I'm going to do just that. Also thanks for the invitation and the teahouse link. I wasn't aware I could ask question there, I wouldnt have bothered you otherwise --Nomad (talk) 01:48, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

You're welcome, and no problem. I'm happy to answer any questions here. (It's not a bother at all!) ​— Newslinger talk 01:51, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

Your revert

I disambiguated all the article links that linked to Pop Out (song). Wasn't a lot of work, but it did take up time. It's not like readers are going to search for "Pop Out (song)". So that redirect with the ambiguous title and qualifier should target the disambiguation page where other songs are mentioned. Paine Ellsworth, ed. ^put'r there  21:01, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Hi Paine Ellsworth, and thanks for carrying out the requested move and for disambiguating the article links. I thought that Pop Out (song) would be a case of {{R from unnecessary disambiguation}} because that was how In My Feelings (song) was handled (the subject of a similar requested move that we participated in). If Pop Out (disambiguation) would be a better target, I think this pattern should be consistently applied to all redirects named Song name (song) that have a corresponding disambiguation page when one of the songs under that name is a primary topic. Since WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT is not entirely clear ("Sometimes"), would you like to start an RfD discussion for Pop Out (song)? — Newslinger talk 21:15, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

​Actually, since this situation covers a number of Song name (song) redirects that are treated inconsistently, I've gone ahead and started an RfD discussion. If you're interested, you can participate at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2019 July 11 § Pop Out (song). — Newslinger talk 21:52, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you! I'd forgotten about that consensus at PRIMARYREDIRECT. It didn't make much sense to me then and doesn't now; however, it was consensus, so... And I can see where the "sometimes" might be misconstrued. It's meant to mean "sometimes a page is moved", not "sometimes this is what we do when a page is moved". I'll see if it can be clarified. Thanks again! Paine Ellsworth, ed. ^put'r there  23:44, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Paul 'Smiler' Anderson moved to draftspace

Hello @Newslinger, pleased to meet you. I was somewhat surprised that you felt the above article didn't contain enough references as there were already plenty included. However, I have since added more and I have resubmitted it. I woud be obliged if you would look over it again and if you feel it now meets the community guidelines, please reinstate the article. If you are still not happy, please be specific with any sections you feel need more citations. I am completely satisfied with the accuracy and veracity of the article. Your loyal and obedient, etc., Lloydmayer (talk) 10:35, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Hi Lloydmayer, and thanks for working on the article for Paul 'Smiler' Anderson. To show that Anderson is eligible for inclusion in Wikipedia, we need at least two independent reliable sources that provide significant coverage of Anderson. After looking over the cited sources in this version of the article, I don't think we're there yet:

1. Amazon listing: Not independent, since it's a store listing for Anderson's book.
2. Suit Yourself Modernists: As a self-published source, this site is not considered a reliable source.
3. The Modcast: This two-person podcast is also considered self-published, and not reliable.
4. Omnibus Press: Possibly. I don't have access to the book, so I can't tell if it provides significant coverage of Anderson.
5. Amazon: This is the Amazon store listing for #4, and should be removed.
6. History of RnB Records: Self-published, and not reliable.
7. Get Reading: This article only gives a passing mention of Anderson, which doesn't count as significant coverage.
8. Suit Yourself Modernists: See #2.

Even assuming that #4 counts toward Anderson's notability, you'll need one more qualifying source before we can publish Draft:Paul 'Smiler' Anderson. The notability guideline for biographies also lists some other ways to show notability.

Once you've made the necessary additions, please submit the draft again, and an editor will review the new sources. Remember that there's no deadlines for finishing a draft, and no limit to the number of times you can submit it for review. Good luck with your research! ​— Newslinger talk 11:00, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Many thanks for your detailed response.

I have added some more references, including booksellers in Australia and New Zealand; hopefully it now meets your stringent criteria!

With regards to the Get Reading article, I would argue it contains more than a passing reference: The exhibition was the brainchild of second-generation Caversham Mod Paul ‘Smiler’ Anderson who collected many of the exhibits from people living in the Reading area. He said: “I came up with the idea four years ago and I came here three-and-a-half years ago and it’s just grown and grown from there. “I interviewed a lot of Reading Mods because I wasn’t actually around at the time and spoke to them about their experiences. “The exhibition is set out as if a Mod from the time is telling you about his life and that story is all accurate, based on facts and experiences.”

'History of R&B Records' is a record label with a prolific output -it is not a one-man-band; the question here is whether Anderson actually wrote sleevenotes for their record releases, which he clearly has done.

Yours aye, Lloydmayer (talk) 12:00, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Hi Lloydmayer, let's look at the sources that were added:

1. Pan Macmillian: Any page titled "our authors" generally won't count. This is because the website is owned by a company that is affiliated with Anderson, which makes it non-independent.
2. Arcadia Bookshop: The same applies to bookstore listings. Since the bookstore is selling a book written by Anderson, the bookstore's website is non-independent.
3. Get Reading: To count as significant coverage, a substantial portion of the article needs to be focused on Anderson, and not just something that Anderson is affiliated with. The WP:CORPDEPTH guideline is written for companies, not people, but it gives a better idea of what significant coverage entails. Both of the Get Reading articles don't count as significant coverage of Anderson.
4. Fred Perry: This is a press release of a clothing brand. Press releases are non-independent, and can't be used for notability.
5. Chris Farlowe: This is someone's blog, which is a self-published source, and is not reliable.

Sorry, but these sources don't establish Anderson's notability. Please review the basic criteria of the notability guideline for biographies, and find some qualifying sources. If you're not sure what kind of sources count as reliable, take a look at the perennial sources list which contains many examples of sources that are considered generally reliable and generally unreliable.

Sometimes, a person might not have enough coverage to be eligible for a Wikipedia article. If that's the case, you can always add sources to the draft when they surface in the future, and submit the draft when it's ready. There's no rush. ​— Newslinger talk 12:41, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Very well. I still maintain that he is notable person; the sources support this, and I have read many other Wiki articles with far fewer citations. I would have preferred you to have left it on the main Wiki page, perhaps with a note to say 'more citations needed' so that others could also contribute, but I'm not going to waste any more time on it. Lloydmayer (talk) 12:56, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Sorry to disappoint, Lloydmayer, but notability on Wikipedia isn't really the same thing as notability in the real world. However, we need some some way to determine whether a topic should be included in Wikipedia, and the notability guidelines are the most practical solution that editors have been able to come up with after many years of discussion.

There is a list of alternative outlets that might help you find a different place to write about Anderson. For example, it's pretty simple to move an article to Wikia, since the formatting is mostly the same. I hope you find a good home for your article. — Newslinger talk 13:03, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Hey Lloydmayer, I just did some research on Anderson. Although I didn't immediately find enough qualifying sources for Anderson himself, I found this GQ article and this Louder Sound article that should make Anderson's book, Mods: The New Religion, qualify for an article. You can then create a redirect from Paul 'Smiler' Anderson to Mods: The New Religion, and include some background information on Anderson in the article on his book. Is this plan something that would work for you? — Newslinger talk 13:27, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Reliable sources/Noticeboard

Regarding your collapsing of personal-related comments in that particular discussion, I think the paragraph immediately before the first collapse (... in regards to your linking of my edit, it's worth noting that you've reverted my warning left on your talk page ....) contains 32 words associated to editor talk page out of a total of 39. I believe this comment should also be included in the collapse per WP:FOC - "comment on content, not the contributor". Thank you. Pyxis Solitary yak 08:16, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Hi Pyxis Solitary, I've collapsed the paragraph in question. Hopefully, the collapse boxes make the discussion easier for uninvolved editors to follow. — Newslinger talk 08:45, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. I saw that you did so @ 08:39, 12 July 2019 -- but it was reverted @ 13:27, 12 July 2019 with the allegation that the collapsed signed comment was "split" from the previous signed comment (this edit deleted the previous signature). This is how you left the section, and this is how it is now (two comments combined as one after-the-fact). Pyxis Solitary yak 22:08, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

​The collapse box was not intended to be a contentious issue, but a reading aid for uninvolved editors. I've removed the first collapse box entirely because it does not appear to be making a positive difference. — Newslinger talk 22:37, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

I understand that. I also understand the well-intentioned but ultimate futility in trying to deal with contentious editing. You did what you could. Pyxis Solitary yak 23:29, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

@Pyxis Solitary: Don't say it was two comments combined as one after-the-fact because that's false. Here is the initial comment, there was only one signature. I spaced out the message for styling purposes. It's not an "allegation" of splitting – that's what happened. My revert restored my comment as it was. (Not the main point of my message, but any comments about how to use a talk page can be brought to → my talk page.) Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Don't forget to share a Thanks ♥) 00:18, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Guidance Needed

@Newslinger

Hello. I would appreciate your guidance concerning the proper way under Wikipedia standards for a living person about whom a Wikipedia article was created when he was a public figure can get an independent, unpaid, 3d party to review the contents of an article to make sure that each and every sentence satisfies Wikipedia standards.

If this cannot be done because the article is considered contaminated, then how can such a Wikipedia article be deleted?

Finally, I hope that I have contacted you in the right manner and in the right forum. If not, I apologize in advance.

Kind regards,

RKN888 (talk) 03:13, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Hi RKN888, and thanks for contributing to Wikipedia! I'm happy to answer questions here. Since the letters in your username correspond to the initials of Ronald Kenneth Noble, I'm assuming that you're referring to the Ronald Noble article.

It looks like Davykamanzi had previously edited the article for pay and made significant additions at Special:Diff/736330180 in August 2016. Davykamanzi then submitted the article for peer review in March 2019, but the review was closed after it was unanswered for a month. Finally, Davykamanzi asked for the {{COI}} cleanup tag to be removed from the article just over a week ago at Talk:Ronald Noble § Maintenance template, but there was no consensus to do so.

Spintendo explained what needed to be done before the {{COI}} tag could be removed: an editor without a conflict of interest needs to check all of the content added by Davykamanzi, verify the cited references, and ensure that it is compliant with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Most importantly, all claims should be verifiable, the cited sources should be reliable, the phrasing should be neutral, and included information should constitute due weight. The editor should also ensure that pertinent information is not excluded from the article in a way that causes it to be unbalanced.

Once the editor thoroughly reviews the article and rewrites the problematic portions of the paid edits, they can remove the {{COI}} tag themselves. By removing the tag, the editor assumes responsibility for the paid edits, and is expected to respond to inquiries regarding the content they rewrote.

Sometimes, there is not enough interest in a topic for other editors to volunteer to review an article. (This is probably the case here, as the peer review was closed without any activity.) In this case, you can try contacting the associated WikiProjects for help (Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography/Politics and government, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United States, and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United States for this article). You can also post on the Wikipedia:Reward board, where you can offer to do a Wikipedia-related task in exchange for having the article reviewed.

If none of these options work for you, you'll just have to wait until someone comes along and cleans up the article themselves. Since Wikipedia is a volunteer service, there is no timetable for when an article gets improved. It all depends on when people want to help, and that can be unpredictable. I hope this answers your question! — Newslinger talk 03:53, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

​I just noticed that your username implies that you are Ronald Noble, and I've adjusted the wording of my comments above. If you're not Ronald Noble, please say so. — Newslinger talk 04:05, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

@Newslinger:

I am Ronald Noble. Thank you for your advice which is very helpful and which points out both the strength and weakness of Wikipedia. Anyone can create an article about a living person. He or she can do it anonymously, but the living person cannot correct the article himself/herself, nor can he hire someone to do it in a transparent manner. He must beg a community of anonymous persons to take an interest in him and hope that someone will do so.

I take this issue seriously. I am copying my response to @Bafflegab who responded to my request for copy editing. His/her response was very professional, very transparent, very respectful, but would result in a 100% accurate statement about an event of great significance to the security of the White House and the President following a series of security breaches and following the Oklahoma City bombing being deleted.

Again, thank you for your thoughtful response. I've read some of your other exchanges and you are always thoughtful and thorough which is greatly appreciated.

RKN888 (talk) 04:24, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

My note to @Bafflegab follows:

Extended content, quoted from Talk:Ronald Noble § Removed text

@Bafflegab Thank you for having taken the time to respond my request for Copy Edit assistance. As you correctly pointed out, the Wikipedia article in question is about me. I do not wish to complain about Wikipedia’s rules as they relate to living persons, but they seem unfair. Any 3d party is allowed to create an article about a living person that is false, misleading and incomplete or that does not follow Wikipedia guidelines, but the living person does not have the ability to correct the errors himself or to hire someone to correct those errors. This seems patently unfair. I am now trying to use the Copy Edit approach simply to have an article that was created by someone without my knowledge to become a neutral, unbiased and encyclopedic type of article. I want to use your specific proposed deletion as an example of how Wikipedia’s rules are stacked against living persons. Before doing so, I want you to know that I greatly respect and appreciate how transparent and careful you were about your proposed deletion. Unfortunately, since the language that you deleted was not carefully written, you reached a wrong conclusion that the language did not concern the subject of the Wikipedia article. In addition, since the editor of the deleted language did not use the best citations, you were able to point out his/her citations were lacking. Let me begin by quoting you: “CC-BY-SA declaration; text in this section was removed from the article be me; for reasons see below or the article's edit history. I am leaving it here in case its removal breaks any references and so future editors may reuse refs if relevant. Baffle☿gab 02:30, 9 July 2019 (UTC) (this appears to have nothing to do with Ronald Noble, who is not even mentioned in many of the sources.) In 1994, following a plane crash in the south lawn of the White House carried out by Frank Eugene Corder,[1] Secretary of the Treasury Lloyd Bentsen directed Under Secretary Noble and Secret Service director Eljay B. Bowron to conduct a "thorough and comprehensive" investigation into the circumstances leading to the plane crash.[2][3] In 1995, a public report of the White House Security Review was published, with President Bill Clinton accepting all its recommendations and announcing the closure of the portion of Pennsylvania Avenue in front of the White House on May 21, 1995, restricting movement only to pedestrian traffic to eliminate the threat of any potential car bomb or truck bomb attacks,[4] as well as changes to air traffic rules and other security measures.[3]” My response to your statement: “This appears to have nothing to do with Ronald Noble, who is not even mentioned in many of the sources.” Your basis for deletion is clearly stated. First, you believe that the deleted material has nothing to do with Ronald Noble. Second, you write that Ronald Noble is not even mentioned in many of the sources. Let me first demonstrate why the event that you deleted is significant not only to Ronald Noble but to the United States and therefore should be included in a Wikipedia article. The White House Security Review overseen by then Under Secretary of Treasury Ronald Noble was ordered after a series of security breaches and terrorist attacks about which many articles were written in the US and around the world. Prior to the White House Security Review’s recommendation to close Pennsylvania to vehicular traffic, there had been an assassination attempt of President Clinton and a suicide plane crash into the White House. There also was the terrorist bombing in Oklahoma City where 168 people were killed on April 19, 1995 less than a month before the White House Security Review that I oversaw recommended closing Pennsylvania Avenue to vehicular traffic. Neutral articles making clear the importance of the White House Security review: An LA Times article was entitled, “Clinton Seals Off Traffic from Part of Pennsylvania Ave: White House: Street in front of executive mansion is permanently closed to vehicles. President calls it part of 11-step program to tighten security after terrorist attacks.” https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1995-05-21-mn-4461-story.html In this article, then President Clinton highlights the significance of his decision to close Pennsylvania Avenue to vehicular traffic. I quote: “Clinton noted that Pennsylvania Avenue has remained open to vehicular traffic for 130 years, "through four presidential assassinations and eight unsuccessful attempts on the lives of presidents . . . through a civil war, two world wars and the Gulf War." https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1995-05-21-mn-4461-story.html This article also makes clear how extensive the White House Security Review was. I quote: “The advisory committee reviewed more than 1,000 documents and interviewed 250 individuals, including former presidents Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter and George Bush, and experts from eight nations with considerable experience with terrorism. It drafted a top-secret, 500-page report with a 260-page appendix; Five of its 11 recommendations remain classified.” https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1995-05-21-mn-4461-story.html Now, let me turn to your observations which are understandable in light of the text as written in the Wikipedia article. You write: “this appears to have nothing to do with Ronald Noble.” The language in the Wikipedia article states: “In 1994, following a plane crash in the south lawn of the White House carried out by Frank Eugene Corder,[1] Secretary of the Treasury Lloyd Bentsen directed Under Secretary Noble and Secret Service director Eljay B. Bowron to conduct a "thorough and comprehensive" investigation into the circumstances leading to the plane crash.[2][3] “ This declarative sentence was imprecise in that it uses the label “Under Secretary Noble” when referring to who was directed to conduct a “thorough and comprehensive” investigation of White House security. It should say “Under Secretary Ronald Noble.” Earlier in the Wikipedia article, it states, “In 1993, Noble was appointed the Under Secretary of the Treasury for Enforcement, being placed in charge of the Secret Service, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF), the Customs Service Office of Enforcement, the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, the Office of Foreign Assets Control and the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network.[4][9]” Therefore, one could deduce that the Under Secretary Noble referred to in this paragraph is in fact Under Secretary Ronald Noble, but you are right that it is not clear as currently written. Once it is clear that the Under Secretary Noble referred to in this paragraph is the same Ronald Noble about whom this Wikipedia article was created, and the same Ronald Noble was ordered to oversee the entire White House Security Review, then the deleted material has everything to do with Ronald Noble. Neutral citations referring to Ronald Noble as overseeing the White House Security Review: Regarding your second point, you write: “Ronald Noble … is not even mentioned in many of the sources.” Again, you are correct. The sources that were cited in this article do not clearly mention Ronald Noble’s name, but this problem can easily be corrected. I have very little familiarity with Wikipedia’s detailed rules, but I researched “types of content removal” and the sub-heading “unsourced information.” I quote: “Unsourced information[edit source] Shortcut • WP:USI Wikipedia's verifiability guidelines require all information to be citable to sources. When information is unsourced, and it is doubtful any sources are available for the information, it can be boldly removed.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_removal There are many neutral, independent and credible sources to support the statement that Ronald Noble oversaw the White House Security Review that gave the recommendation to close Pennsylvania Avenue to vehicular traffic and that Ronald Noble was tasked by then Treasury Secretary Lloyd Bentsen to conduct a review of White House security. 1. New York Times: “Treasury Under Secretary Ronald K. Noble, who oversees the Secret Service and heads the committee of security experts, declined to comment today about its conclusions or the Administration's plan to close Pennsylvania Avenue. But other officials said Mr. Noble had told them he was concerned about the possibility of a car bomb and would like to see the avenue closed to vehicles.” https://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/10/us/security-plan-close-pennsylvania-avenue.html 2. LA Times: “Ronald K. Noble, undersecretary of the Treasury for enforcement, was overseeing the investigation.” https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1995-05-24-mn-5471-story.html 3. UPI: “Treasury Secretary Lloyd Bentsen, who oversees the service, ordered Noble to undertake a 90-day review of the security for Clinton and his family, which will parallel the sweeping probe of the crash by the Secret Service, the FBI, the Federal Aviation Administration, the National Transportation Safety Board and the District of Columbia police force.” https://www.upi.com/Archives/1994/09/12/Probe-begins-into-White-House-plane-crash/8392779342400/ 4. Washington Post: “It's not clear whether the advisory committee's proposal has the support of Ronald K. Noble, undersecretary of the treasury for enforcement, or his boss, Treasury Secretary Robert E. Rubin, who will forward the panel's report to Clinton, possibly next week.” https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1995/05/10/proposal-to-close-pennsylvania-ave-irks-commuters-tourists/dfe4ca2d-d86f-45ad-a443-10e2b24cc18c/?utm_term=.166af3944830 5. Orlando Sentinel: “But Noble's report made clear how vulnerable the White House remained to an assailant. For example, he disclosed that Frank Eugene Corder, the pilot who crashed below the president's bedroom window last year, had his plane's wing flaps up and his throttle at full forward, which led investigators to conclude that he had intended to crash in a suicide mission.” https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/os-xpm-1995-05-21-9505210399-story.html 6. The Daily Pennsylvanian: “The advisory committee, which will be chaired by the Under Secretary for Enforcement Ron Noble, will review "every aspect of how the White House could be attacked, from the ground or from the air," Bentsen said during a press conference.” https://www.thedp.com/article/1994/11/pres-rodin-named-to-white-house-safety-panel Conclusion: Using my Wikipedia account, I requested a copy edit of an article in a transparent manner where a major editor has a close connection with me. You rightly pointed out language that was not as clear as it could be. You also rightly indicated that Ronald Noble was not even mentioned in many of the sources used. If the event in question is notable and would be included in any encyclopedia, if it is linked to the subject of the article and if it is properly sourced, then it should be included, not deleted. Next Steps: I do not wish to get involved in a dispute with a thoughtful editor such as yourself who took the time to respond to my request for a copy edit. I also will not add back the language that you deleted, but I would just appreciate your giving me guidance as to how a living person can make sure that a Wikipedia article created about him is accurate if he cannot make it accurate himself or if he cannot hire someone who indicates his conflict of interest to make corrections/additions/deletions? Again, thank you for the time that you have devoted to this issue.

@Gunslinger

Can't I just ask @Davykamanzi to delete all of his edits? Wouldn't that resolve the problem? — Preceding unsigned comment added by RKN888 (talk • contribs) 04:33, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Hi RKN888, I collapsed the copied content to make this page easier to read. In the future, you can link to the section (Talk:Ronald Noble#Removed text in this case) and anyone will be able to read the content at its original location.

Sure, you can have Davykamanzi delete all of their contributions from the article, but do you really want to? Many articles have cleanup tags attached, and I don't think the average reader pays too much attention to them. They're mostly directed to editors as suggestions for improving the article. Perhaps you could ask Baffle gab1978, who answered your request for a peer review, whether they think the article still needs the {{COI}} tag after the review.

By the way, you may want to make your explanation at Talk:Ronald Noble § Removed text more concise. Since actions on Wikipedia are voluntary, editors are not obligated to respond to inquiries, and it's in your best interest not to deter others from responding to you. Your message on that page is 1,750 words long (comparable to an undergraduate essay) and many editors would not be willing to read such a long statement if they aren't highly interested in the topic.

Finally, as general advice, I recommend reading Wikipedia:Plain and simple conflict of interest guide if you haven't already. It's a fairly comprehensive guide on how to interact with other editors when a conflict of interest prevents you from editing an article directly. The WP:PSCOI § Steps for engagement section will most likely be useful. — Newslinger talk 11:11, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you

@Newslinger

Thank you for your patience and advice.

It is much appreciated.

I will think about how I can learn enough about Wikipedia in order to find a solution consistent with its guidelines.

Again, thank you for having devoted so much time to an article with which you had no prior engagement.

All the best,

RKN888 (talk) 11:49, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

​No problem! The Wikipedia community doesn't operate the same way as most organizations do. Many of the processes on this site can be unintuitive, and there's definitely a steep learning curve. Thanks for being open-minded, and for trying your best to work with other editors. — Newslinger talk 12:00, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Pin section

Re: [1]

FYI, which isn't apparent in the code, that's {{subst:pin section}}. Cheers,―Mandruss ☎ 12:07, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, Mandruss! I previously used the {{DNAU}} template because I was consistently pinning only the RfCs on the noticeboard. But I agree that a visual indicator would be helpful for editors, and I'll switch to {{Pin section}} from now on. — Newslinger talk 20:11, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar
	Hi Newslinger, thanks for leaving a comment on my talk page about the article for Marianne Woods. Little things make a big difference so many thanks for this. Stinglehammer (talk) 12:38, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, Stinglehammer, and keep up the good work with your articles on women! — Newslinger talk 21:30, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Following up on updating information

Hi Newslinger. A while back I posted at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard regarding the AVG PC TuneUp page having mostly out-dated and erroneous information in the “Features” section. The problem is that there was a complete product overhaul, but no press coverage to be used as citations regarding the product’s current features.

You suggested using the company website as a citation and added an “out-of-date” tag to the page. Based on your feedback, I prepared a new proposed “Features” section here that I was hoping you would take a look at and consider implementing. Since you are the one that added the tag I am trying to address, I believe the etiquette is to reach out to you before anyone else.

Please let me know any feedback you have or whether I need to follow a different procedure to get the proposed Features section “approved” by independent editors. Empey at Avast (talk) 21:12, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Hi, Empey at Avast. In general, prose is preferred over lists, and lists of product features tend to look too promotional in Wikipedia articles. It would be great if you could rewrite the "Features" section from User:Empey at Avast/AVG-PC-Tuneup Controversial in prose. To request a comprehensive review of your changes, please use the {{Request edit}} template on Talk:AVG PC TuneUp, and another editor will look over them. The steps in WP:PSCOI § Steps for engagement may also be helpful. — Newslinger talk 21:58, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

monitor lizard

Please explain your close and interpretation as the consensus. cygnis insignis 03:27, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Hi Cygnis insignis, in the requested move discussion at Talk:Monitor lizard § Requested move 7 July 2019, you proposed to move the Monitor lizard article to Varanus, and described monitor lizard as "one recent common name for some species". Plantdrew also took the "support" position, but asserted that monitor lizard is the common name for the Varanidae family instead of the Varanus genus, and wanted Monitor lizard moved to Varanidae.

The other eight editors in the discussion (not including Casliber, who was ambivalent) all agreed that monitor lizard is the common name for the Varanus genus. (More precisely, they argued that the species of Varanus are most commonly known as monitor lizards.) Although you believed that the generic name of the genus should be the common name, other editors disagreed with consideration to non-expert readers and cited the recognizability criterion of the article titles policy. Casliber and BarrelProof refuted Plantdrew's link of the term monitor lizard to the Varanidae family with a source that uses the name for the Varanus genus, and noted that readers are more likely to refer to the genus because all of the other genera in the family are extinct.

In this discussion, where the majority opinion was backed by valid reasons that were supported by policy (WP:COMMONNAME and WP:RECOGNIZABILITY), I determined that there was strong consensus not to move the Monitor lizard article to Varanus. — Newslinger talk 04:39, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

~ new section ~

Hey Newslinger ~ thanks ~ my respect for you is great ~ ~ listen ~ can you watch this evolve ~ I already left a message at Valereee's and The Eloquent Peasant's page ~ thanks ~mitch~ (talk) 02:54, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Hi Mitchellhobbs, and thanks for the kind note. I can see what the dispute (User talk:Rathfelder § Failure to provide an edit summary that explains why) is about and the applicable guideline (WP:EPON), but I admit that I haven't done much work with categories, and my opinion is probably not of much use here. However, the dispute is being discussed among a larger group of editors at WT:CAT § Help me understand something about categories..... The discussion there is not too heated right now, and can always be upgraded to an RfC if the editors can't reach consensus. I think everything will be just fine. — Newslinger talk 03:10, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Your like me ~ I don't do much on category's either ~ But you know ~ ~ if they start sourcing anything ~ I'll be on it ~ WP:LOL ~mitch~ (talk) 03:43, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

World Relief Deutschland

Dear Newslinger,

some months ago I updated the posts of World Relief Germany, but had a wrong account,... I now have a new personal account with the name of the company, so it should be clear, that I am not a distant objective writer. So I will only do updates, for example changes of the bioard or uploading new reports....

So now I changed the German pagge: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Relief_Deutschland and also the English one: World Relief Germany

Could you release the changes?

And is there a possibility to change the redirect from PartnerAid to World Relief Germany. It is true in Germany, but not fpor the international english context:

The situation is: PartnerAid Germany was founded about 20 years ago, later on independent PartnerAid UK, USa, Switzerland and netherlands were founded. In 2014 PartnerAid Germany became World Relief Germany, so a redirect link in Germany makes sense.

But for the other countries it is NOT correct to have this redirect link.

There still is PartnerAid: PartnerAid CH: https://partneraid.ch/en/, PartnerAid NL: http://www.partner-aid.nl/, PartnerAid UK: http://partneraid.org.uk/

So under PartnerAid there should be four links, to the three PartnerAids and one to World Relief Germany. See Version History for PartnerAid, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=PartnerAid&diff=863188476&oldid=857753145

Would be great, if you can help me to correct this.

Many greetings and thanks for your help!

--Kerstin WRD (talk) 11:12, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Hi, Kerstin WRD. Unfortunately, I'm probably not the best person to ask about the German Wikipedia, since Wikipedias in different languages do some things differently, and I'm not familiar with their procedures. However, I can tell you that I don't have the ability to review pending changes on the German Wikipedia. You'll have to wait for a reviewer to look over your edits, and this might take a while because the queue on the German Wikipedia is currently 55 days long. If you want additional assistance, try contacting the embassy of the German Wikipedia, where editors fluent in both German and English would be glad to help you. — Newslinger talk 02:24, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Dear Newslinger, thank you very much for your quick response. You helped me so much, as I now can login at Wikipedia again. For the German page I will look for support from some German Wikipedians. All the best! --Kerstin WRD (talk) 07:22, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

​No problem, and good luck! — Newslinger talk 08:36, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Find a Grave logo.png

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I have sent you a note about a page you started

Thanks for creating Old boys' club.

User:Rosguill while reviewing this page as a part of our page curation process had the following comments:

Kinda surprised that this isn't the article title, as I feel like this is how I usually see the concept referred to.

To reply, leave a comment here and prepend it with {{Re|Rosguill}}. And, don't forget to sign your reply with ~~~~ .

Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.

_signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:40, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

​I'm also a bit surprised, but the Google Ngram Viewer confirms that old boy network and old boys' network are the most common names for this topic. I've edited the Old boy network article to position old boys' club before old boys' society, since the former term is more common. Thanks for reviewing all of my redirects. — Newslinger talk 09:09, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Bloomberg

I fail to see how any reasonable person can take that section as positive evidence that Bloomberg is reliable. You have 3 editors saying they think it is, and 1 editor and a scathing article in the Columbia Journalism Review that have doubts. If that is the standard then fair enough, but it is basically arbitrary. I won't be giving that list much credence in future. zzz (talk) 17:59, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Hi Signedzzz, there are three discussions listed in WP:RSP § Bloomberg, and the overall classification draws upon all of the listed discussions, although recent discussions are weighted more highly. Among all three discussions, editors show consensus that Bloomberg publications are generally reliable for news and business reporting.

In the most recent discussion that you mentioned (Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 270 § Bloomberg), you were the only editor to question Bloomberg's coverage of China-related issues, while 5 other editors (not 3) disagreed with your concerns.

You claimed that the Columbia Journalism Review article (published 2017) criticized Bloomberg's China coverage and Bloomberg Businessweek's "The Big Hack" article (published 2018). However, Softlavender refuted your argument and clarified that your selected quote referred to Bloomberg's spiking of a China-related article (i.e. what they didn't publish), not the entirety of Bloomberg's China-related coverage (i.e. what they did publish). You did not respond to Softlavender's correction. Also, the CJR article does not mention "The Big Hack" at all, as it was published one year before "The Big Hack".

As there is no compelling reason to weight your opinion more strongly than the opinions of 5 other editors, I have determined that the discussion shows consensus that Bloomberg is generally reliable for China-related news reports (in addition to its other news coverage). — Newslinger talk 18:38, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Correction? No one said it wasn't about spiking a story, so no one was "corrected" (or "refuted"). The article did indeed cast doubt on the entirety of Bloomberg's China-related coverage - that was the point of the article. Perhaps you should read it. zzz (talk) 18:59, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

​I did read the article, and it covers Bloomberg's refusal to publish a China-related piece because Bloomberg feared that its access to China would be impacted. While GreenMeansGo noted that the article cast the incident as "a lapse in their journalistic integrity", they still considered Bloomberg reliable "on average". Softlavender noted that the CJR piece did not mention any errors in the articles that Bloomberg did publish.

If you want to appeal the result of this discussion or Bloomberg's generally reliable classification, you can start a request for comment on Bloomberg on the reliable sources noticeboard. — Newslinger talk 19:17, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Unfortunately, no one was interested in re-examining their strongly-held belief in Bloomberg's reliability, so there was no "discussion". As I said, if that results in a classification of "generally reliable", the classification is of little value. zzz (talk) 19:26, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

​RfCs on the noticeboard tend to have more in-depth analysis than plain discussions, and they are normally open for at least 30 days. If you want a broader section of the community to re-examine Bloomberg's reliability, an RfC would be the best path forward. WP:RSP only reflects the contents of discussions on the noticeboard, so please be sure to make all of your points inside these discussions and provide rebuttals to dissenting opinions when you have strong counterarguments. — Newslinger talk 06:40, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Hi Signedzzz, I noticed that you recently edited 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests § Social media. Is your opposition to Bloomberg related to the Bloomberg Opinion piece quoted in the article? Since the referenced opinion piece was written by Adam Minter, a columnist who is not a subject-matter expert, there is a possibility that the opinion is undue. I've started a discussion at Talk:2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests § Bloomberg Opinion piece regarding the Twitter data sets to examine the issue. — Newslinger talk 11:45, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks and my changes regarding police misconduct in HK 2019 protests

Hi @Newslinger:, thank for the message. You said you removed some of my edits, but as new as I'm, I'm not sure which part you were saying. Please let me know. Cheers. Ltyl (talk) 15:18, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Hi Ltyl, there were several instances of unsupported attributions ("It was alleged") in the Allegations of Hong Kong Police Force misconduct surrounding the 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests article, but I just realized that they were already in the article (phrased using different words) before you edited it. Sorry about the mistake, and I've restored your edits. Welcome to Wikipedia! — Newslinger talk 15:39, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

thanks for helping me edit 5-Minute Craft (in DrifAssault's (mine) sandbox)

		The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
		Thanks for helping me edit 5-Minute Craft, the article would be very biased without you. DrifAssault (talk) 02:16, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Hi DrifAssault, thanks for being so receptive to feedback from other editors! Wikipedia's policies and guidelines are a lot to take in at once, and there's a steep learning curve, but you're doing great so far. If you have any other questions about editing or if you ever want my opinion on something Wikipedia-related, please feel free to ask me here. — Newslinger talk 02:22, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Hi Newslinger, for the 5 Minute Craft article again, it is consider to be an original research or/and unreliable source if I conclude this channel have various other sub-channel? The reason for that is I have found YouTube channel which are aimed for specific audiences, but all have the same name format "5-Minute Crafts (kids, recycling, etc.)" and also being shown on 5-Minute Craft's page — Preceding unsigned comment added by DrifAssault (talk • contribs) 12:50, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

​I found this review on Common Sense Media that says, "5-Minute Crafts is a YouTube channel with several subchannels", so it should be fine as long as you cite this page. You can also use the rest of the review, but the opinions should be attributed to Common Sense Media so it's clear where they're coming from. — Newslinger talk 15:13, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

RSN Moratorium

Hi, Newslinger - our project team (dogs) is struggling with RS issues, so I headed over to RSN to get consensus on use of a particular source, and while I was there, re-read the moratorium RfC. I may have misunderstood the proposal or it could be that retrospectively, I’m seeing things differently so I struck my iVote. I encourage any advice you would like to share (ping me if you do). 🙂 ^Atsme _Talk 📧 10:26, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi Atsme, and thanks for reaching out to me here! I really appreciate your participation in reliable sources noticeboard discussions and RfCs, even when your views don't align with mine. It's important to have a variety of perspectives represented on Wikipedia, since that is the only way this encyclopedia can accurately reflect the world around us. Your opinions are valuable here.

Regarding the discussion on The Bully Breeds: You did a great job researching the questionable legitimacy of the publishing company. Unfortunately, deletion reviews aren't suitable for introducing new arguments, and I think Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Catahoula bulldog would have had a better shot at a merge/redirect result if you had directly responded to Nomopbs's 13 bullet points. If the Catahoula bulldog still doesn't meet WP:GNG after a few months, you may want to consider a proposed merger to Louisiana Catahoula Leopard dog.

On the topic of general reliability, I think that most editors on the noticeboard agree that context matters, but simply disagree on how much guidance to give editors upfront. Although I appreciate your new position in the RfC, your support for the moratorium was also perfectly respectable. My goal is to strike the right balance between RfCs and discussions on the noticeboard. RfCs reduce the number of repetitive discussions, but without some type of restriction on when RfCs can be opened, we run the risk of cluttering the noticeboard with too many RfCs (as they run for at least 30 days).

If you have any feedback on my editing or my noticeboard participation, please feel free to tell me at any time. — Newslinger talk 15:02, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Draft:MicroG for improvement, if interested

There should be a microG page. Could you help make the draft, Draft:MicroG, better? -- Yae4 (talk) 22:20, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi, Yae4. Thanks for creating this draft! An article for MicroG was on my to-do list, but I wouldn't have been able to get to it very soon on my own. I'll be happy to contribute to the draft when I have a bit of time, since it's clear that MicroG is notable. — Newslinger talk 15:10, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

new report about Twitter disinformation campaign

Thought you may be interested, I've included new information about the Twitter disinformation campaign:
International reactions to the 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests#Social media
The last paragraph of that section is new. Feel free to improve upon this if you wish. Thanks. 65.60.163.223 (talk) 06:04, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for adding this! I've reworded one of the sentences, but everything else looks great. — Newslinger talk 15:25, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Conflict of Interest and Edit War at /e/ (operating system) and Gael Duval

Hi Newslinger, Would you please have a look at the recent edits and talk page comments by me, User:Caliwing, User:Indidea, and User:Mnair69, and advise on how to handle? I believe something like User_talk:Mnair69#June_2019 is also appropriate for at least Caliwing, and probably Indidea, and I'd like to nip edit wars in the bud if possible. Thanks. -- Yae4 (talk) 08:52, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

I've looked at the edits by Yae4. It's impressive to see that he's doing all his best to ruin the page about /e/, systematically discretiting, adding content about similar or competing other projects, using non-neutral tone, unediting other users edits. This guy seems to have an account here only to destroy the work of others. Newslinger, I don't know if you are an admin and I don't know a lot about Wikipedia procedures, but what actions can I take in this case to ensure that this page is getting balanced and factual content without getting vandalized by a single user? Indidea (talk) 17:37, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi Indidea, I have responded on your talk page at User talk:Indidea § Response to your comment from my talk page. — Newslinger talk 18:34, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

I am monitoring the progress of the /e/ (operating system) article. Let's continue this discussion on the article's talk page, Talk:/e/ (operating system). — Newslinger talk 18:34, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Joel Gilbert Article

Hey, wasn't sure how to message on wiki. Not trying to mess up anything but I need some help. I'm still trying to get the article updated without creating a mess and I need your assistance. There was no conflict of interest other than a group (who moved on without me) trying to do an article together so no one had to do a whole page. This article as it is has numerous issues beyond the version I worked on. Again, not trying to be a jerk, just want to actually get it fixed and get your blessing. Below is when I thought I was blocked and wrote the whole story on what happened to get things reverted. Please help if you can, not trying to circumvent your decisions, just not sure why inaccurate material that has bad sources is chosen over accurate material (albeit, equally bad sources right now). If anything you see needs fixing before it goes in, please let me know.

Apart from finding new information and choosing which parts to edit, all independently, me, rory, and nate are not working on this article for any other reason than his name was first on the list of articles to edit. The current version of the article has bad sources and is negatively skewed. We're literally just fixing what is wrong. There should be no issue. The problems brought forth are one, my account, rory's and i guess nates too were created recently (mine and rory's because we've never had an account) and just trying to get some articles done. The goal was literally, get to ten edits and get started. There is nothing wrong with creating an article and there is no conflict of interest between independent editors agreeing to do an article. If that were wrong the community portal is wrong too. Two, nothing is being promoted; the only sources pertaining to Joel Gilbert are news articles and his website. I might've cited one wrong but that's it. The article as it stands has a negative skew and bad sources. We're trying to give it a neutral stance and fix the sources as we go. To accuse me, rory, and nate (we don't know him too well. He said he would check our stuff and gave us a general outline: i.e. stick to a topic and build a reputation) of being sock puppets is no different than calling anyone who's ever communicated on wikipedia about an article, a conflicting interest. I get the timing is bad (just looked over the history, there's a lot in the last few days) but nothing we have done has contradicted any guidelines set by wiki. This is classic looks like a duck must be a duck thinking. Not sure why the contention for this is so high. The article should be taken down if not fixed. Not trying to be a bother but its wrong to label this a conflict of interest when it isn't. JGoldman76 (talk) 03:14, 7 September 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by JGoldman76 (talk • contribs) 01:19, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi JGoldman76, you can participate in the sockpuppet investigation at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Sweethominy. If you are not a sockpuppet, then the investigation will conclude in your favor, and you have nothing to worry about. I will return to the Joel Gilbert article after the investigation is complete. — Newslinger talk 05:47, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Question about using primary or secondary sources

Hi - maybe you didn't notice my question on the /e/'s history page, but I'd like to better understand and get your advice so that I can contribute better to the /e/ page and others. I think in some cases (probably for tech projects) some facts can clearly be checked from primary sources and you won't necessarily find content in secondary sources about it. Let me give an example in the /e/ case: the list of supported devices, like it was added recently by a user, is on their gitlab. That's a fact, it can be checked. Is there any issue with using such a primary source? Another case: reference to source code. Does it qualify as an acceptable source for a citation on a Wikipedia? Also, another case that comes to mind: /e/ have released their "cloud" part as a set of various software components that can be installed by users to self-host their /e/ services instead of relying on the /e/ cloud at ecloud.global. As this is rather new, there are no secondary sources about this news. However this kind of information is not a claim, it's factual and can easily be checked on the appropriate download page. In that case, is it acceptable to be mentioned and cited in an edit? Caliwing (talk) 09:12, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi, Caliwing. I've responded at Talk:/e/ (operating system) § Primary sources. I hope this helps. — Newslinger talk 10:01, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for September 10

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited University of Phoenix, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page New York (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver).

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 07:46, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

New Page Review newsletter September-October 2019

Hello Newslinger,

Backlog

Instead of reaching a magic 300 as it once did last year, the backlog approaching 6,000 is still far too high. An effort is also needed to ensure that older unsuitable older pages at the back of the queue do not get automatically indexed for Google.

Coordinator

A proposal is taking place here to confirm a nominated user as Coordinator of NPR.

This month's refresher course

Why I Hate Speedy Deleters, a 2008 essay by long since retired Ballonman, is still as valid today. Those of us who patrol large numbers of new pages can be forgiven for making the occasional mistake while others can learn from their 'beginner' errors. Worth reading.

Deletion tags

Do bear in mind that articles in the feed showing the trash can icon (you will need to have 'Nominated for deletion' enabled for this in your filters) may have been tagged by inexperienced or non NPR rights holders using Twinkle. They require your further verification.

Paid editing

Please be sure to look for the tell-tale signs of undisclosed paid editing. Contact the creator if appropriate, and submit the issue to WP:COIN if necessary. WMF policy requires paid editors to connect to their adverts.

Subject-specific notability guidelines' (SNG). Alternatives to deletion

• Reviewers are requested to familiarise themselves once more with notability guidelines for organisations and companies.
• Blank-and-Redirect is a solution anchored in policy. Please consider this alternative before PRODing or CSD. Note however, that users will often revert or usurp redirects to re-create deleted articles. Do regularly patrol the redirects in the feed.

Not English

• A common issue: Pages not in English or poor, unattributed machine translations should not reside in main space even if they are stubs. Please ensure you are familiar with WP:NPPNE. Check in Google for the language and content, and if they do have potential, tag as required, then move to draft. Modify the text of the template as appropriate before sending it.

Tools

Regular reviewers will appreciate the most recent enhancements to the New Pages Feed and features in the Curation tool, and there are still more to come. Due to the wealth of information now displayed by ORES, reviewers are strongly encouraged to use the system now rather than Twinkle; it will also correctly populate the logs.

Stub sorting, by SD0001: A new script is available for adding/removing stub tags. See User:SD0001/StubSorter.js, It features a simple HotCat-style dynamic search field. Many of the reviewers who are using it are finding it an improvement upon other available tools.

Assessment: The script at User:Evad37/rater makes the addition of Wikiproject templates extremely easy. New page creators rarely do this. Reviewers are not obliged to make these edits but they only take a few seconds. They can use the Curation message system to let the creator know what they have done.

DannyS712 bot III is now patrolling certain categories of uncontroversial redirects. Curious? Check out its patrol log.

Go here to remove your name if you wish to opt-out of future mailings.

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:15, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Mention

Hello. Did anyone mention me on this page? Mention me back if you did. From AnUnnamedUser ^{(open talk page)} 22:40, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi user:AnUnnamedUser. My apologies. The erroneous notice of mention was caused by me, inadvertantly. I had initially mis-ascribed (on this page) certain of my changes to your input on Medicaid estate recovery, when they were actually to Newslinger's input. You got pinged before I made the correction.NormSpier (talk) 18:55, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Editor education

Good luck in teaching NormSpier. Eschoryii (talk) 07:50, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

I have unreviewed a page you curated

Hi, I'm Seth Whales. I wanted to let you know that I saw the page you reviewed, The Good, the Bad & the Queen, and have marked it as unpatrolled. If you have any questions, please ask them on my talk page. Thank you.

Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.

SethWhales ^talk 22:16, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi Seth Whales, since you didn't add any cleanup tags to The Good, the Bad & the Queen, do you have any concerns about the article that require further review? — Newslinger talk 18:23, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Warning placed in 6 places where "Sandbox exists" template was used

Hi, user:Newslinger. To save people potential wasted time, in the 6 places (talk areas) where I know the template "Sandbox exists" was used, I've placed the warning

Heads up on the sandbox referenced just above. It seems to not be in the right place, and will cause various problems. See the workaround provided here by a knowledgeable person from the Teahouse: User_talk:NormSpier#Your_sandbox_problem.

The 6 places correspond to 6 articles where, in early Sept., you spotted my contributions.

Based on what someone told me the creation date of that template was, I imagine you used it just for the 6 articles, and if so, with my placed warnings, there is no urgency on your part to correct the template, etc.

(Also, rest assured, the placement of the warning on the 4 articles I have dropped my contributions from does not signal any kind of intent to recontribute the disputed content to those articles.)

NormSpier (talk) 18:40, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

I've added a button to {{Sandbox notice}} which makes it easier to use the VisualEditor on talk page sandboxes (e.g. Talk:Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act/sandbox). Feel free to continue using sandboxes in your user space if you prefer editing there, instead.​ — Newslinger talk 20:04, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Patient Protection and Portable Care Act

Please see my edits to the RfC you initiated. My goal was to make it clear where editors should register their opinion. Also, I moved the table of contents box you created, although I wonder if it would work better higher up (a bit below the RfC banner), but I defer to your judgement. Thanks!   - Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) (I am a man. The traditional male pronouns are fine.) 05:17, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi Markworthen, and thanks for reorganizing this. I was concerned that the RfC would end with low participation, and I think your changes made it better. I've changed some of the heading names and moved the table of contents upward. I hope this works for you as well. — Newslinger talk 05:37, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

I like! Great work on this thorny topic btw. Whew! Not easy.   - Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) (I am a man. The traditional male pronouns are fine.) 05:40, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

​Thanks, I appreciate it! One last thing: did you mean with Talk page discussion after extensive edits (after instead of before) for the "Retain" bullet in Talk:Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act § Instructions? — Newslinger talk 06:08, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Never mind, I misunderstood the label. Looks good! — Newslinger talk 07:13, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Yes, me too, Markworthen. I caught that you fixed up the page, and it's better. Thanks.NormSpier (talk) 19:30, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi, Newslinger. On the ACA article, as I have somewhere on the RFC page, it's looking like the "original research" (unless an actuary or economist comes in and "no, says that's not original research") will probably make the best solution for the article to revert permanently all but the "problems" section. The calculation for bronze and silver in that section is "routine calculation" by the verifiability thing you linked me to, I think it will be clear. (Notes on that in the RFC. I'll be glad to answer any questions, and even just write down the whole string of calculations, with the numbers, for your, or anyone's, review.)

Detailing "what do the simple calculations involve?"

You look up the premium and out of pocket max for the couple in question, on healthcare.gov for the second lowest cost silver plan, and the second lowest cost bronze plan. (To get that premium, you put in a salary like $120,000 for the couple, putting them well above 400% of the Federal Poverty Level, so they get no subsidy, and you see Healthcare.gov tells you explicitly there will be no subsidy--you thus know you have the total premium not knocked down by a subsidy.) You then calculate the premium subsidies they get at 399% FPL and 401% FPL using the rules, and the rest is obvious additions, subtractions, multiplications, and additions on the calculator. The rules for the subsidies are simple, and taken from Kaiser Family Foundation Subsidies page, which I have inadvertantly left off as a reference for the calculation, though the reference appears elsewhere.NormSpier (talk) 22:25, 12 September 2019 (UTC) There is also an alternative to get premium subsidies for the 399% FPL couple and the the same couple at 401% FPL, by going to healthcare.gov, and getting direct the premium subsidy amount information for the couple. This is plugging in the couple twice, with two different incomes, rather than once. In the first case, there is a big subsidy, and in the second case, the subsidy will be 0. ("The couple has gone over the cliff".) In doing the calculations, heathcare.gov may have some slight rounding conventions, or may have already updated FPL from where it was last open enrollment, so the cliff-point might be very slightly different than exactly 400% of for-2019 open enrollment that I have used, but everything will be extremely close, unless I have in fact made a mistake. And of course, as above, I will be glad to put all the specific calculations, i.e. walk-through of the calculated numbers, on a sheet for your review.

One or two of what you have in what you presented as problematic in the "Problems" section may have to be dropped, and they are of minor importance. The references reliability can all be substituted with reliable ones--I didn't know the standard when I used them. The remaining issues on that section: (1) I think you had that the POV in that section was not neutral. I counter-argued on the RFC. So I ask, do you still have a neutrality issue on just the "Problems" section? And, can you be specific exactly where? (2)We have comments "prolix" and much of it needs to be rewritten (from our only two visitors leaving a vote), so can guide me as to if you think they apply to Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act#Problems only, and, as to specifically what needs to be adjusted. Basically, I think it's all pretty quick work to get it right by you.

Do note, that some of what had put in which will be reverted was a correction of a serious flaw in the article. (This is before I got to it. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act&type=revision&diff=908286257&oldid=907734677 You may want to search for "sharing".) A main component of the flaw was not to mention cost-sharing reductions (less clearly called cost-sharing subsidies) as a provision. (This was recognized both by me, and someone else, as pointed out in the RFC Talk:Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act#Cost-sharing_subsidies) It's a main provision, and it's also central in what Trump did to try to sabotage the law. (The article mentions the cost-sharing in the erroneous table, and then down in what Trump did. But the silver-loading response by many states and insurers is also omitted--a major omission.) I have not proposed to keep the section I added on the cost-sharing reductions, Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act#Cost-sharing_Reductions, and also on the silver-loading later on, because I can't get around "original research". The silver loading has to be explained, and that is "original research". (So I'm lowering my goals to produce a high-quality article. It will be a incoherent on the matter of cost-sharing reductions. Nothing I can do. At least the article will have the glaring (POV) omission, "Problems" (sometimes only) in the functioning of the insurance it offers. (It's very unfortunate that we have a bunch of able and willing editors to improve this now-timely article, and that's just how it is.)NormSpier (talk) 19:30, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

And, also, if you could possbily guide me on: Is there a master starting where you can get to all of the procedures and rules around here, like the ones you are pointing out in various places? And, I have seen the term "Encyclopedic" in the RFC in a few places. Do you have a link for me on that?

And also, thanks much for all the work, including directing me to the appropriate policy documents, and setting up the RFC.NormSpier (talk) 20:14, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

FYI, I just notified all the people (being just 3) who had prior comments in the ACA talk section on content about the RFC, and our general need for some people who know the law, etc., to give some comments.NormSpier (talk) 08:40, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

---

Markworthen, Newslinger , Usedtobecool: Given the RFC, and the 0 available editors besides me to work on the ACA article, it looks like the optimal investment of my time and yours (as proposed by me yesterday), will be reverting all of my content permanently, except the "Problems" section, which section is easy to fix -- I mainly just have to substitute some references to meet Newslinger's conditions on the section, if the routine calculations are accepted as routine calculations (which I can't believe you won't when you see what they are). So, out or in now on "problems" doesn't much matter. It seems like "problems" will ultimately be in, unchallenged, pretty soon.

However, there have been comments on the way all of my contributed sections are structured / worded, possibly extending to "Problems". Since I have little experience with Wikipedia writing, it would be most helpful, if you happen to have time, if you could make specific comments about the structuring / wording, etc., of that one section: Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act#Problems to help me make it useful for the reader.

Otherwise, thank you all for your help and comments on the RFC and otherwise.NormSpier (talk) 20:07, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

In a very well-written comment (good job!) in Talk:Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act#Comparison,_particularly_depth_of_coverage,_to_Brittanica,_and,_are_we_teaching_people_to_fish?, GreenMeansGo has alerted me that basically, any Wikipedia article needs to be written roughly at the level of the average person who may choose to access the content. (Me "synthesizing" from his exact words.) This makes it clear that all but "Problems" as I wrote them are at too high a level for the intended audience for this article (but not for the audience of Banach space or , Risk_parity#Equally-weighted_risk_contributions_portfolios). So the prior-proposed-by-me "get rid of all of my contributions on the ACA article, except the 'Problems' section", seems even more appropriate than it did yesterday. I can't see how "problems", perhaps with some rewording, would be above the level of the audience (or is above the level of most of the rest of the article), and people at the level of the audience, both on the left and right, will want to, and deserve the right to, see the problems that sometimes arise with the ACA coverage, which are nowhere else mentioned in the article, and are often discussed by politicians with "repair" proposals, like Biden recently.

The separate article Medicaid estate recovery is also not above the level of the audience for that article. A bit of rewording may be needed, and I'm craving any specific advice on that from any of you four: GreenMeansGo, Newslinger, and the other two just above (who I don't want to bother with a "ping") in that ACA article section, and that article Medicaid estate recovery.NormSpier (talk) 15:10, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Well NormSpier, I guess I'd preface this by reminding that brevity is the soul of wit, and you're going to make much more progress, and get more participation on Wikipedia by compartmentalizing problems and addressing them concisely. At some point, people are simply not going take the time to read pages upon pages of text.

A couple of quick notes looking over the estate article: There is basically no reason that we ought to ever be including a dozen citations to support a single sentence. It's unnecessary, and disruptive to readers, especially on mobile. We should also never use postal abbreviations on Wikipedia. How are you, as presumably an American, supposed to know that PDL is the postal code for Pays de la Loire? And that's probably the core problem with the content overall. You are pretty clearly writing as an American and for an audience of Americans. That seems to be the source of the overly-detailed state-by-state breakdowns, the excessive use of acronyms (DMAHS, LTCR, MAGI) and US-centric terms (e..g, Federal Poverty Level) while seemingly presuming people know what they are, and the overall approach of writing for people who "deserve the right to see the problems". That's not our job. The POV issue with the "problems" section is the entire section. Wikipedia does not advocate for any "side" and we are not here "make an argument". So long as you are making an argument for Americans who "deserve to know" then the content is not going to appropriate for this venue. GMG^talk 13:28, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi user:GreenMeansGo. Thank you for your comment, which seems to divide into presentation stuff (like don't use state abbreviations), and that you think all of the material discussed is not appropriate for Wikipedia. On the latter, I only see that the labelling "problems" of the section may be tendentious, and that it should be something like "What some people, including experts, assert are problems' (but more concise, of course). Since this very directly bears on the content of the ACA article, and the Medicaid estate recovery article, note that I will copy it to those talk pages.NormSpier (talk) 13:58, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

No, NormSpier, the problem is not the title of the section; the problem is that more than half the article is an extended argument in support of the position that the thing is problematic. As it stands, everything in the "View that the..." and "Argument for..." sections should be removed entirely. The notion that it is "just presenting expert opinion" is at best a thin veneer, and the pretense is dropped almost entirely by about halfway through, when it stops pretending to present "a view" and starts telling readers outright what you're advocating. In the bits where the veneer holds, it's still painfully obvious that the writer is bending over backward in order to try to act like they're presenting "someone else's" argument: One aspect of the problematic interaction point of view that was raised is seen by noting that the.... I mean...One aspect of the view that Steve is a sexual deviant, is raised by noting the company he keeps of lewd and lascivious women. It's just attributing it to death, and yet attributing it to no one at all, so you can proceed to simply state the argument you wanted to make in the first place. GMG^talk 14:28, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi, user:GreenMeansGo. I interpret the comment above to now refer to Medicaid estate recovery only. Oh, yes, I am having trouble getting POV right, and my awkward "viewpoint" kind of think is coming from my rewording after POV comments by user:Newslinger, indicating something like "viewpoints had to be reflected in proportion to presence reliable sources". So I have put a pro and con section, to try to hit that POV criterion.

The issues pointed out (in 2013, 2014 and at other later times, in some places, including the Washington Post, and Seattle Times were:

a)ACA expanded Medicaid (and other medical Medicaid) bills paid out have to be paid back by the person's estate. (Applying only to people 55 or older, and only in some states)

b)There is an unequal treatment of people below 138% FPL vs those a bit above. Both groups get their medical bills paid, but those below 138% FPL have to pay it all back, while those above don't. Further, those above are getting very cheap, highly subsidized insurance with low copays, quite similar to what people below get (premiums may be 0, copays are small), except for that having to pay it all back.

c)There was a compulsion to have the coverage for people under 138% FPL (the mandate), and still is in some states. So people are compelled to pay back all medical expenses, and there is also a case of capitations: maybe $700 a month per person has to be paid back, even if the person didn't get sick, or go to a doctor, ever.

d)The notice of the Medicaid estate recovery is inconspicuous, in many states. In states that use the Federal exchange, it's actually non-existent when the person applies. (It is unclear to me whether states are obligated to eventually tell the person. If they do, using the Federal exchange, it may be after the person already has the Medicaid, and are exposed to all Medical expenses needing to be paid back.)

The above 4 items are the essence of the information in the article. Also needed, though, is me not being lazy. The various newspaper articles and other places where the issue was brought up mainly talk about one or two states only. I have not been lazy, and looked up the situation in a number of other states with the recovery, to assist the reader to determine that there are a lot of states that currently do the recovery, and a lot of states that currently do not do the recovery. I have also placed timing, like 2014 or 2017, in cases where the recovery rules were changed, so the reader can figure out that it was in apparent response to the ACA.

Yes, I need good help on avoiding POV problems in the exact way I have written the thing. I welcome your suggestions. Such as of the type I have already gotten from user:Otr500. (If the discussion continues to be just related to Medicaid estate recovery, we can copy this, and move it to talk there. I already have your initial comment there.) Also, note I will be in and out today.NormSpier (talk) 15:06, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

• @NormSpier: I have been restricted on time lately but will look at things a little closer as soon as I can. I would only remove material that is from your perspective and not backed by reliable sources. If that is a large amount then I understand but first see if sources back up what you include. Otr500 (talk) 15:30, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

---

Hi, user:Newslinger. As best as I can tell, our RFC (which I think lives here in the live version Talk:Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act#RfC:_Recent_additions ) is not closed. (That is, I think it turns blue or something when it's closed.)

We have the same 3 voters as we did on Sept 13. I am waiting for it to close before doing anything, as who knows what any additional voters will vote for.

(Within it, we did resolve our differences. However, it seems the votes will be binding, which is why I am waiting for it to close before taking any action.)

Thus, my quetion: do you know when it closes?

Thanks.NormSpier (talk) 13:58, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi NormSpier, requests for comments typically stay open for 30 days. After that, most RfCs are formally closed by an uninvolved editor, typically in response to a request for closure. Since there is a long backlog of formal closures, it can take weeks or months before an RfC is closed. If the result of the discussion is obvious, editors don't have to wait for a formal closure before making changes to the article based on the RfC. In this case, since the discussion has slowed considerably, it's okay to make changes to the article that all editors in the RfC agree on. — Newslinger talk 18:45, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the info, user:Newslinger. Rather than the formal "rollback"that the 3 voters in the unclosed RFC voted on, I will use the alternative procedure discussed here to get to our agreement: Talk:Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act#"Problems"_Section_Copied_Into_Sandbox_to_Prepare_for_Rollback--_But_there_is_a_problem_with_many_of_the_references_transferring--please_advise. (Pulling out my 2 sections plus a little, and then doing the "Problems" modification on-line.) This approach should keep other intermediate content from other people, which I see there is some, from being lost. (And should allow other people to edit. I see we have some College students involved with the article to some exent now.)NormSpier (talk) 20:11, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Note...

Hey i wanted to write a note to you about teaming... I wondered if we... could.. team like help each other out! I am a horrible person at Wikipedia!!!^_^ I was hoping you could message me on my talk page and help me and maybe we could team you know... Well i soon hear back from you later so see y'all!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Killershark101 (talk • contribs) 20:20, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi Killershark101 and welcome to Wikipedia! If you have any specific questions about editing, please feel free to ask me here. — Newslinger talk 20:58, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Unable to save edits for ArsDigita?

To repeat: Edit. Put Cursor at end of 1st paragraph, or end of another paragraph. Use Cite Tool (as done many times already), automatically for this link:

https://books.google.com/books?id=ktm885vGIXEC&pg=PA317&dq=ArsDigita&hl=en

Hit Insert, Publish, type summary, Publish again. See:

Something went wrong HTTP 404 [Dismiss]

I've also see this error (but don't remember what was done leading up to it): Error loading data from server: apierror-visualeditor-docserver-http. [OK]

The above book link was added to Philip_Greenspun without problem.

Could you see if you also have problems with editing ArsDigita? Thanks. -- Yae4 (talk) 12:43, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi Yae4, it looks like the Zotero citation feature was temporarily down. It's now back up and the citation works again. I've cited Jessica Livingston's book at Special:Diff/919099637. — Newslinger talk 20:55, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Newslinger, I'd had some luck since asking, and gotten the error elsewhere. There seems to be an intermittent problem. -- Yae4 (talk) 21:01, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

See talkpage

Hey Newslinger, Can you correct your inquiry to say that IMme4u09 moved --not deleted--information? I was very surprised by your inquiry because I moved the sentence under one heading to under a different heading related to the subject; I did not delete Never-the-less, I am willing to go through the process as my edit was not ill-intentioned, so I am sure that the complaint will be dismissed. I am always open to chat and welcome all feedback. I try to contribute in a meaningful manner. I recognize that there is always room for improvement on how I can better my edits. The best way for me to learn how to better my wiki edits is to learn through feedback from senior users like yourself. In the future, feel free to contact us freshman first before taking action so we can learn from our mistakes and improve our edits! Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by IMme4u09 (talk • contribs) 13:49, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Hi IMme4u09, in Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Sfj340sfeoem71, I wrote: "IMme4u09 removed information on Andrews's resignation from the lead section at Special:Diff/918085868." By moving the information from the lead section of the Rob Andrews article to a less prominent section of the article, you did indeed remove content from the lead section. You're welcome to post a rebuttal at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Sfj340sfeoem71 § Comments by other users, but please don't change other editors' comments directly, as it is a violation of the talk page guidelines. Thanks. — Newslinger talk 18:17, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

I understand what your intention but the correct language would be moved from a lead section to another section. Please correct the information because how it is currently phrased is misleading.

The sentence was misleading. Also, that new sentence in the heading was not there until recently. This is a discussion about something that happened 6 years ago. That complaint was dismissed. This is a biography of a living person, only facts should be in there. The article clearly states that that he left to take on another job. It also states there was an complaint, but every credible article thereafter (that users are deleting) clearly state that it was dismissed. Placing a complaint in titular heading and deleting the fact it was dismissed is misleading and shows a hidden agenda.

This needs to be based on facts. The facts are there was a complaint by a watchdog. The complaint was dismissed (the FEC released a statement to the watchdog dismissing their claim). The facts also state that Andrews only resigned after accepting a titular job. — Preceding unsigned comment added by IMme4u09 (talk • contribs) 18:28, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

It would be best if your concerns were shared on the talk page of the article, at Talk:Rob Andrews. The sockpuppet investigation focuses on account behavior, and does not examine article content except to establish editing patterns between accounts. — Newslinger talk 18:33, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Newslinger, This was put on the talk page and no one disputed. But then you changed it, if you took issue with the edits, you should comment on the talk page. Please revert it back to uncontroversial edit until this is decided on the talk page. The current phrase is misleading and does not include facts. it does not represent what the article says. Since you personally changed the article, I am requesting you change it back and let the talk page make a decision. I will respect and not change whatever the talk page decides. Thank you for your consideration. — Preceding unsigned comment added by IMme4u09 (talk • contribs) 19:25, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

I will return to the Rob Andrews article after the sockpuppet investigation is complete. — Newslinger talk 19:36, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. How long should I expect that to take? While I support the inquiry itself, I would like confirmation that this is investigated performed by a computer and my personal information is not being released to wiki users. I have never authorized nor signed an agreement that I would allow my sensitive information to be made public to other users.IMme4u09 (talk) 20:40, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

I don't know how long the investigation will take. It depends on the complexity of the case and the checkusers' workload. I'm afraid that your expectations of privacy are not in line with Wikipedia's privacy policy, which allows for CheckUser as an anti-abuse procedure. If you don't agree with this privacy policy, you should not edit Wikipedia. — Newslinger talk 00:31, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Surviving R Kelly Vandalized

The Surviving R Kelly page was vandalized and changed to say "Surviving the Lies." I simply changed back the page. I might recommend locking this page in the future if there is continued vandalism by R Kelly supporters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.2.211.194 (talk • contribs) 16:10, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for removing the vandalism from the Surviving R. Kelly article! I'll keep an eye out for similar changes. Welcome to Wikipedia! — Newslinger talk 22:31, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

could you check how I did this 2nd time?

I created a new RfC at Talk RSN. Could you check and see if I did better this time? X1\ (talk) 00:26, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Excellent job! Most editors are responding favorably to your proposal, and I don't have any suggestions that would improve it. ​— Newslinger talk 22:35, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Moving Cite Unseen discussion to Meta

Hey there! What do you think about moving the Cite Unseen discussion on Sky Harbor's talk page to the meta talk page? For the sake of visbility and keeping discussions on it centralized. Thanks, ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 07:22, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

​Sure, that makes sense. Let me do that right now. — Newslinger talk 07:23, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Awesome, thanks. And thanks for writing up all your thoughts, they're great. ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 07:26, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Anytime! — Newslinger talk 07:34, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Diligence
	Thanks for all the heavy lifting today at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources‎. Your quality work is appreciated. El_C 22:07, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, El_C, for your kind message and your consistent counter-vandalism work! — Newslinger talk 22:12, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for fixing that SPI. I shouldn't edit this late in the day! The material that that account has been adding is truly nauseating.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 04:31, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

​No problem. Thanks for keeping an eye on the Joel Gilbert article while the investigation is still open. I would request page protection, but my request was declined the last time I did that for an article with a pending SPI. — Newslinger talk 04:36, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for October 30

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited NSO Group, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Wired (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver).

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 07:23, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Deletion review for TOPCAT (software)

An editor has asked for a deletion review of TOPCAT (software). Because you closed the deletion discussion for this page, speedily deleted it, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the deletion review. ( Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2019 November 2 ) Djm-leighpark (talk) 11:06, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

New Page Review newsletter November 2019

Hello Newslinger,

This newsletter comes a little earlier than usual because the backlog is rising again and the holidays are coming very soon.

Getting the queue to 0

There are now 817 holders of the New Page Reviewer flag! Most of you requested the user right to be able to do something about the huge backlog but it's still roughly less than 10% doing 90% of the work. Now it's time for action.
Exactly one year ago there were 'only' 3,650 unreviewed articles, now we will soon be approaching 7,000 despite the growing number of requests for the NPR user right. If each reviewer soon does only 2 reviews a day over five days, the backlog will be down to zero and the daily input can then be processed by every reviewer doing only 1 review every 2 days - that's only a few minutes work on the bus on the way to the office or to class! Let's get this over and done with in time to relax for the holidays.
Want to join? Consider adding the NPP Pledge userbox.
Our next newsletter will announce the winners of some really cool awards.

Coordinator

Admin Barkeep49 has been officially invested as NPP/NPR coordinator by a unanimous consensus of the community. This is a complex role and he will need all the help he can get from other experienced reviewers.

This month's refresher course

Paid editing is still causing headaches for even our most experienced reviewers: This official Wikipedia article will be an eye-opener to anyone who joined Wikipedia or obtained the NPR right since 2015. See The Hallmarks to know exactly what to look for and take time to examine all the sources.

Tools

• It is now possible to select new pages by date range. This was requested by reviewers who want to patrol from the middle of the list.
• It is now also possible for accredited reviewers to put any article back into the New Pages Feed for re-review. The link is under 'Tools' in the side bar.

Reviewer Feedback

Would you like feedback on your reviews? Are you an experienced reviewer who can give feedback to other reviewers? If so there are two new feedback pilot programs. New Reviewer mentorship will match newer reviewers with an experienced reviewer with a new reviewer. The other program will be an occasional peer review cohort for moderate or experienced reviewers to give feedback to each other. The first cohort will launch November 13.

Second set of eyes

• Not only are New Page Reviewers the guardians of quality of new articles, they are also in a position to ensure that pages are being correctly tagged for deletion and maintenance and that new authors are not being bitten. This is an important feature of your work, especially while some routine tagging for deletion can still be carried out by non NPR holders and inexperienced users. Read about it at the Monitoring the system section in the tutorial. If you come across such editors doing good work, don't hesitate to encourage them to apply for NPR.
• Do be sure to have our talk page on your watchlist. There are often items that require reviewers' special attention, such as to watch out for pages by known socks or disruptive editors, technical issues and new developments, and of course to provide advice for other reviewers.

Arbitration Committee

The annual ArbCom election will be coming up soon. All eligible users will be invited to vote. While not directly concerned with NPR, Arbcom cases often lead back to notability and deletion issues and/or actions by holders of advanced user rights.

Community Wish list

There is to be no wish list for WMF encyclopedias this year. We thank Community Tech for their hard work addressing our long list of requirements which somewhat overwhelmed them last year, and we look forward to a successful completion.

---

To opt-out of future mailings, you can remove yourself here

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 08:33, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Just want to understand

I'm fine with the concept of asking the same questions of all serious Arbcom candidates (been there, done that, etc.), but I'm unclear why you'd ask questions of a "candidate" who is clearly not serious, what with their 1032 edits just under the minimum edit count wire, and what could only be described as a non-statement. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just trying to understand the rationale. Risker (talk) 21:06, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi Risker, the eligibility requirements for candidates are not particularly high, and from what I understand, the community allows all candidates to run as long as they are eligible. By asking GeneralPoxter the questions:

• The worst possible result is that the candidate fails to produce a good answer. In this case, any voter who comes across the candidate's questions page will see this, and be more informed about the candidate's abilities.
• The best possible result is that the candidate produces a thoughtful response. Even if the candidate does not win the election, their response would contribute to the community discourse around paid editing (a perennial issue) and two-factor authentication (the subject of controversy earlier this year).

Either way, it took me less than one minute to submit the questions to GeneralPoxter. While the likelihood of the candidate producing a good answer is debatable, I don't think there is any harm in providing the candidate with the opportunity to do so. — Newslinger talk 21:27, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Oh, yes, there's no question that he meets the criteria. I'm just wondering about whether it could wind up wasting the time of people reviewing candidates to act as though one is taking this particular candidate seriously. I don't care about wasting the candidate's time - they decided to go for it - I'm more concerned about the 1500 or so people who try to inform themselves about the candidates. Risker (talk) 21:37, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

As a voter, if I saw a candidate with an empty questions page, my first reaction would be confusion: I would be wondering why the candidate didn't receive any questions, or if there were some technical glitch that prevented the page from loading. But if I saw a questions page with answers that did not meet my criteria, I would be certain to oppose the candidate on my ballot, and I would move on to the next candidate.

Any voter may choose to oppose a candidate solely based on the candidate's editing history and candidate statement. If a voter already made up their mind from these two factors, they don't have to read the candidate's questions page if they don't want to. Voters can evaluate candidates however they choose. If a voter wants to do this as efficiently as possible, they should first focus on the factors that are easier to evaluate, and then skip any factors that would not affect their voting decision. The voter is in full control of how they spend their time.

If you are concerned that the community is wasting resources on evaluating candidates who are less likely to succeed, I think the best solution would be to raise the eligibility requirements for candidates. This can be done through a proposal in the September 2020 RfC for the next election.​ — Newslinger talk 22:10, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Dreamboys

I noticed you moved Dreamboys to the draft space? What needs improving and I will make the improvements. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HollieAVAY (talk • contribs) 15:30, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi HollieAVAY, and welcome to Wikipedia! The main issue with Draft:Dreamboys is the sourcing: most of the article is based on questionable tabloids such as the Daily Mail (RSP entry) and The Sun (RSP entry). Articles on Wikipedia should be based on reliable sources. Here are some reliable sources that could be used for the article:

• "What happened when one normal guy tried to become a Dreamboy" from Cosmopolitan (RSP entry) – the magazine is a situational source, but this detailed piece of narrative journalism is reliable; opinions and personal experiences in the article should be attributed in-text
• "Dreamboys petition put Preston's Guild Hall into administration" from BBC (RSP entry)
• "Big Brother stripper Lotan Carter dropped by The Dreamboys after aggressive behaviour towards female housemates" from Digital Spy
• "Bosses of male stripper show Dreamboys to sue over cancelled hen party bookings in Cardiff" from WalesOnline
• "Cape Town woman sues after being blinded at UK strip club" from Independent Online

Please replace the questionable sources with more reliable sources. If a piece of information is not supported by a reliable source, it would be best to exclude it from the article. There is plenty of reliable coverage on the Dreamboys, but the article content may need to change in order to comply with Wikipedia's verifiability policy. — Newslinger talk 13:36, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Moving Draft:GrapheneOS to article?

Hi Newslinger, there has been some history at Draft:GrapheneOS before my involvement. I believe AngusWOOF's comments have been resolved, but I have been unable to get it moved to article space, because of the re-direct. People have worked on a couple drafts now, over more than a few months, and it was pulled back into Draft when I asked the question (see talk page). Would you please help? -- Yae4 (talk) 11:39, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

​Sure, I'll take a look. I've gotten distracted and forgotten about Draft:MicroG, but I'll also follow up on that draft later. — Newslinger talk 11:43, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

QW

Hi Newslinger. I think you should go ahead and start the Quackwatch RfC using some form of draft 2 (I recommend collapsing and moving the list of previous discussions, to keep things orderly). Some of the folks trying to prevent the RfC from moving forward are devotees of the topic area. What is needed now is outside viewpoints from people who don't have skin in the game. If you're not comfortable starting the RfC, I'm willing to do it and take any heat. Cheers. - MrX 🖋

One other thing: I think you should consider seeking a tribunal of uninvolved admins (at WP:AN) to close the RfC. It is likely to be a messy affair, so getting this lined up sooner rather than later would probably benefit the process. - MrX 🖋 12:32, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Okay, I've tried to strike a compromise in WP:RSN § Draft 2 of Quackwatch RfC:

Let's compromise: we can start the RfC on whether Quackwatch is self-published, since there is strong support for that question. If the RfC finds consensus that Quackwatch is self-published, or if there's no consensus, Quackwatch will continue to be classified as "No consensus, unclear, or additional considerations apply" – with a note that WP:PARITY is in effect for fringe topics. If the RfC finds consensus that Quackwatch is not self-published, we'll do a follow-up RfC to determine whether it's generally reliable.

Since this RfC is unusually controversial, I agree that a panel closure from uninvolved admins makes sense, and I'll note that in the discussion section. I'll also collapse and move the list of past discussions, as you've recommended, and I'll add a table of contents to the entire dicussion for easier navigation. ​— Newslinger talk 21:02, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

I would likely object to including "a note that WP:PARITY is in effect for fringe topics", because of WP:MEDRS. Also, WP:PARITY does not enjoy wide consensus as far as I know. It really has nothing to do with whether Quackwatch is an SPS, or whether it is a RS. I also think we need to have an RfC to determine if it is a generally reliable source, regardless of the outcome of the current RfC. I have not seen any valid arguments for not formalizing consensus on that matter. Please let me know I've missed something that you think is compelling, as I do value your opinion.- MrX 🖋 12:48, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

You bring up a good point that WP:MEDRS and WP:PARITY pull Quackwatch in opposite directions on the usability spectrum. Perhaps you could mention that in WP:RSN § Arbitrary break and WP:RSN § Discussion (Quackwatch) so it's on the record. I'm not familiar with the historical uptake of WP:PARITY, but I see that it was added to WP:FRINGE in December 2006, and nearly 13 years is quite a long time. Is there any discussion or dispute showing that WP:PARITY is not widely accepted?

On general reliability: if there is consensus that Quackwatch is self-published (or no consensus on whether it's self-published), it can't be classified as generally reliable, since that designation is reserved for sources with stronger editorial oversight. A general reliability question would only be useful for establishing:

• Whether Quackwatch is generally reliable or generally unreliable, if there is consensus that Quackwatch is not self-published
• Whether Quackwatch is generally unreliable, if there is consensus that Quackwatch is self-published (or no consensus on whether Quackwatch is self-published)

My impression of the discussion so far is that there is a low chance of Quackwatch being considered anything other than "No consensus, unclear, or additional considerations apply", which is its current status. That's the classification I would expect for a self-published source authored by a subject-matter expert (which is the direction the active RfC is trending), so I don't have any issue with it.

If there is disagreement on Quackwatch's classification after the current RfC is closed, a general reliability RfC would most likely be needed to settle it. Some editors objected in the general reliability straw poll because they considered the question a distraction from the main WP:SPS question. These objections would probably not apply after the self-published matter is resolved.

In short, if you are satisifed with Quackwatch's current classification, I don't think you need to do anything. But if you believe a general reliability RfC is needed, any editor can start one at any time, although it would be best to start it after the current Quackwatch RfC is closed. ​— Newslinger talk 12:18, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

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Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 23:22, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Followup on Epstein

Hi Newslinger,

It seems editors at Epstein are insisting that without the use of the NYT rebuttal, nothing should be mentioned. I've replied at the RS/N and restored the sourced information at Epstein, but I do think it's important to follow up on your suggestion This case does illustrate that passing mentions in articles tend to be less reliable than claims that are substantiated with longer and more detailed explanations. (Perhaps WP:CONTEXTMATTERS could be expanded to include this principle.).

I don't immediately see how the guideline can be improved, but if others are having trouble understanding it then I'd like to support expanding/clarifying WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. In this situation, we also have the presence of conflicting reports, and yet the NYT blurb is still being considered important enough that we should halt everything until we hear from them. I wonder if something should be added to the guideline for cases such as this ("and especially when conflicting reports exist, bla bla")?

I haven't got any experience with amending PAG's but I assume you have, and I know Slim Virgin is well versed too, so I'll check with her about how to move forward. petrarchan47คุก 19:23, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

​Sorry for my absence – I had to take a life-related wikibreak at an inconvenient time. The dispute at Talk:Jeffrey Epstein has escalated well beyond the point where a request for comment is warranted, and I'm surprised that there is no RfC on the page. I'm going to start one now. As for the WP:CONTEXTMATTERS expansion, I'll need to do more research to support the change, but I'll eventually share the proposal at WT:RS when it's ready, and I'll send you a ping. — Newslinger talk 20:07, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Great news on both fronts. Just as I was loosing all hope in Wikipedia. petrarchan47คุก 21:14, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Newslinger, the response or lack of response from the NYT should not be brushed aside and forgotten. I am wondering whether you could restore your now archived section at the Epstein page. I also think some important material that lead up to the current RfC should be unarchived and restored to the talk page:

• Claiming Guiffre lied needs strong sourcing
• Claim the Clinton went to island
• BLP issues

If you agree, could you restore these? petrarchan47คุก 02:32, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi Petrarchan47, I generally don't unarchive discussions (except for active RfCs that are prematurely archived), because it's usually more productive to start a new discussion. You can do it if you have something important to add, but new discussions tend to attract more attention than old ones. Talk:Jeffrey Epstein § RfC: Virginia Giuffre and Bill Clinton is scheduled to elapse in a couple of days, and the article can then be changed to reflect consensus. If any editors object to the changes in the future, just provide a link to the RfC. But if you have general concerns with The New York Times that extend beyond its coverage of Jeffrey Epstein, the correct venue is the reliable sources noticeboard. The lack of response to my correction request, while disappointing, is unlikely to change most editors' opinions of the NYT in general. — Newslinger talk 02:47, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

The response from WPians in general to news that the NYT does not behave responsibly or ethically when informed of major falsehoods in their reporting is nothing short of depressing. petrarchan47คุก 02:54, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

I wish I had a better frame of reference, but I've only submitted error corrections twice for Wikipedia articles: one to E! Online (details here) and this one to the NYT. Neither correction received a response. The NYT publishes about 7–14 corrections per day and claims that "dozens of readers often point out the same error". Perhaps more requests to nytnews@nytimes.com would encourage them to take a closer look, but I'm not familiar enough with how large newsrooms operate to understand how corrections are processed, and I have no idea if they are taking my request seriously. — Newslinger talk 03:18, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Regarding my complaint, when I have reminded WPians of the fact that the NYT also reported the existence of WMD's, literal fake news with implications that have likely never been exceeded, I get the numbing sound of crickets in response. The NYT has not deserved the reputation it once had (and retains, here at WP) for many years. Now we have them smearing a victim of sex trafficking and exonerating Bill Clinton without evidence, indeed contrary to it, and still we get crickets. And an archived talk page section. The NYT remains at the top of "RS" for some reason. I mentioned to you at the RS/N that we should make note of their response and react exactly as we would if this was Fox News. We judge RS not based on their ability to report sans errors, but on their response to being informed of errors. I wouldn't expect E Online to have much of a corrections dept., but I think we hold NYT in such high regard partially because we expect it to behave responsibly considering, in part, their vast resources. If we 'caught' Fox News doing this, misrepresenting court records to exonerate a powerful Republican, I do not think the response would be "oh well". The left-leaning editor pool is having disastrous effects on the encyclopedia, in my estimation.

I appreciate all of your efforts to get things right, more than I can express. It's possible that more complaints to their corrections department is what's required to get them to print the truth, but that's really quite unfortunate. petrarchan47คุก 03:47, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

• Here is yet another example of the NYT covering for the Clintons, and of intentional deception in my opinion. The NYT quoted Hillary Clinton's remarks about Tulsi Gabbard accurately, but Hillary received tremendous push back from fellow Democrats, and low and behold, the NYT changed their coverage, making her statement less controversial, without making any reference to the change or offering an explanation. Originally they report that HRC said Tulsi was being "groomed by Russia". Here is the version reflecting the stealth change, and is live on NYT now. It was changed to say that "Republicans were “grooming” her as a third-party candidate". Just like with the Epstein case, if you look closely at the source material, you'll see NYT is being disingenuous. I realize that RS/N, not your talk page, is the proper place for this however I agree with you completely that this evidence won't make a difference in how we view the NYT as a source, so I'm leaving it here to establish that there is a pattern. The Epstein 'error' was not a one-off. Perhaps at a certain point, there will be enough to convince editors that the NYT cannot be considered totally reliable in all cases at all times. petrarchan47คุก 23:19, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

  Regarding the Gabbard/Clinton article, the current version of the article includes a description of their correction, dated October 23, 2019. Your archive links show that the correction was made on the date of publication (October 18), but they did not publish the explanation until the 23rd. I think this is a good example of how breaking news tends to be less reliable, which is explained in the WP:RSBREAKING guideline.

  The best way to ensure that your views are properly represented is to participate in discussions. By starting the NYT/Epstein discussion on the noticeboard, you brought attention to a dubious claim that is now on its way to being removed from the Wikipedia article. On Wikipedia, the duality of expressing a minority opinion and accepting the consensus of the majority can be a bit awkward, but if you believe that the majority opinion is not representative of our policies and guidelines, the only way to represent your views is to voice them. When a generally reliable source publishes something that is likely to be incorrect, and other editors prioritize the reputation of the source over the context of the claim, you're always welcome to bring the issue to the reliable sources noticeboard. — Newslinger talk 02:55, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

I hope you become an admin one day. Stellar response, as per usual. Thank you for taking the time. petrarchan47คุก 23:46, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, Petrarchan47, that's very kind! I noticed that the Giuffre/Clinton RfC has elapsed, and I've submitted a request for closure at WP:RFCL § Talk:Jeffrey Epstein#RfC: Virginia Giuffre and Bill Clinton. It's hard to tell when the RfC will be closed, since they're not processed in any particular order: the waiting time might be days or weeks. I would wait until closure before taking action on the first question, since there's some disagreement on how detailed the explanation should be. The unanimous agreement in the second question is enough to exclude that content from the article. — Newslinger talk 00:40, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

To be absolutely clear, I do believe that even with the NYT's explanation, their edited version is not an accurate reflection of Hillary's words. It was correct the first time. (HRC was not referring to the Republicans, this was an idea put forth by her PR person). However I do not want to get involved in this right now.

I did offer at the RfC to write a proposal that would include everyone's input. I should have noted "as of this comment", at which time there were only 3 or 4 voices. Since then I've wondered if it wouldn't be better handled by someone uninvolved, for the most part. What would you think about trying to draft something? petrarchan47คุก 01:28, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I haven't been following the Epstein controversies closely enough to be of much help here. Since the discussion at Talk:Jeffrey Epstein has slowed down, it would make sense to start a new discussion on the talk page to pin down the exact phrasing, and you can draft suggestions there. The RfC should be closed by someone uninvolved, but any editor (including you and other involved editors) can edit the article as long as it doesn't conflict with the consensus. — Newslinger talk 01:38, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

That makes good sense. Thanks again, Newslinger. petrarchan47คุก 01:40, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

No problem! — Newslinger talk 01:44, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

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Google Ad Manager

Hi, I don't think your assessment of the page Google Ad Manager was wrong per se, however redirecting it to Google Ads is very confusing as it's two completely separate products. Google Ads deals with ads on the google.com search pages, whilst Google Ad Manager deals with selling ad inventory on third party websites, it is the combined name and platform for what used to be called DoubleClick for Publishers and DoubleClick Ad Exchange. Removing all the sections that you disagree with leaving mostly a stub article might not be great, but I think it would be better than a confusing redirect. 87.251.59.70 (talk) 15:40, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

I've restored the Google Ad Manager article as a stub, and added two articles from Ad Age and Search Engine Land that should show notability. Hopefully, the article will not become overwhelmed with promotional content this time. — Newslinger talk 19:31, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

<3 87.251.59.70 (talk) 20:48, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Google Code-In 2019 is coming - please mentor some documentation tasks!

Hello,

Google Code-In, Google-organized contest in which the Wikimedia Foundation participates, starts in a few weeks. This contest is about taking high school students into the world of opensource. I'm sending you this message because you recently edited a documentation page at the English Wikipedia.

I would like to ask you to take part in Google Code-In as a mentor. That would mean to prepare at least one task (it can be documentation related, or something else - the other categories are Code, Design, Quality Assurance and Outreach) for the participants, and help the student to complete it. Please sign up at the contest page and send us your Google account address to google-code-in-admins@lists.wikimedia.org, so we can invite you in!

From my own experience, Google Code-In can be fun, you can make several new friends, attract new people to your wiki and make them part of your community.

If you have any questions, please let us know at google-code-in-admins@lists.wikimedia.org.

Thank you!

--User:Martin Urbanec (talk) 21:58, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

ArbCom 2019 election voter message

Hello! Voting in the 2019 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23:59 on Monday, 2 December 2019. All eligible users are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate in the 2019 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add {{NoACEMM}} to your user talk page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 00:23, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

On your election question, as case study: Phillip Morris editing IQOS content. DS were not used, nor very applicable: after being told to, PMI stopped editing the article directly, and instead requested edits. See User talk:Sarah at PMI for some of the discussion, addressed to one of the PMI editors. Note that the PMI employees have done a professional training course on editing Wikipedia. HLHJ (talk) 07:09, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi HLHJ, and thanks for the example. My election question ("When, if ever, would discretionary sanctions be an appropriate countermeasure against paid editing?") was open-ended, and I wanted to give the candidates an opportunity to describe their thought process. Some of the aspects I was hoping for the answers to address include:

• Distinguishing between Arbitration Committee-authorised sanctions and community-authorised sanctions.
• Distinguishing between disclosed and undisclosed paid editing
• Identifying instances in which there is some intersection between the two, e.g. biographies of living persons, electronic cigarettes, and blockchain and cryptocurrencies

The question was hypothetical, and not an actual proposal. I appreciated Worm That Turned's answer, which illustrated their thinking process in detail. — Newslinger talk 21:03, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, that makes good sense. I'd probably have given you a very perplexed and rather inductive answer, nowhere near as good as WTT's, but then I am an utter ignoramus here and would not dream of running. When I first read about DS I was startled to find that tree shaping was on the list. I mean, religion, war, politics, science, and... training trees into unusual shapes. Also infoboxes and capitalization. I'm not sure what this says about us. HLHJ (talk) 05:11, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

​The charitable answer is that Wikipedia editors are passionate about a variety of topics (including esoteric ones), and that we're dedicated to making articles the best they can be. — Newslinger talk 06:20, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Just as well really. I think of myself as having fairly broad interests, so I'm astonished by the proportion of "Random article" clicks which lead me to a topic I really do not find in the least interesting. I'm delighted that many editors genuinely enjoy useful tasks which I find unpleasant; to the extent that we enjoy complementary tasks, I needn't feel guilty about concentrating on things I enjoy. After all, they often converge on things which I am good at. If this means that others argue about issues I don't care deeply about, that seems like a logical consequence. Humans must vary for a reason. HLHJ (talk) 02:27, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks

...for the top flight attention to the Away (luggage) article update need. Pleasure following your work. Cheers. 2601:246:C700:9B0:79CB:BDA6:E5C8:DD6 (talk) 00:03, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

No problem! Thanks for tagging the article, which drew my attention. Feel free to ask me if you have any questions about editing. — Newslinger talk 00:08, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

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VGChartz

This is a continuation of the VGChartz RfC that I started just over two months ago. Since the WP:RSPS page can have separate entries for different parts of the same site that have completely different reliability thresholds (such as with Fox, Newsweek, and The Points Guy), I was thinking of starting a follow-up RfC that deprecates VGChartz's sales data, but where other parts of the site would keep their regular "generally unreliable" status. Seeing as how even this particular type of segmenting is unprecedented for source deprecation, what are your thoughts? ToThAc (talk) 22:19, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi ToThAc, the only practical difference between the deprecated and generally unreliable classifications is that deprecated sources can be submitted for technical restrictions (e.g. auto-reverts and edit filters) with no fuss, as the RfC already authorizes them. So, there are two points I'd like to make:

1. These technical restrictions need to match a URL pattern. Is the VGChartz sales data limited to http://www.vgchartz.com/weekly, or does it spill over to other portions of the site? Deprecating just a portion of a domain is only viable if the targeted parts of the site are clearly identified in the URL (e.g. all of the targeted content is in a particular subdirectory or subdomain).
2. In light of the unanimous consensus in the November RfC, you might be able to propose technical restrictions for VGChartz as a whole and not just the sales data. While deprecation authorizes technical restrictions, it's not a prerequisite for them. There are many domains on User:XLinkBot/RevertList and User:XLinkBot/RevertReferencesList that aren't deprecated, but were added because they were frequently cited inappropriately. In the interest of keeping things simple, you could try submitting the entire domain to these lists without bothering with another RfC for deprecation. Just link the November RfC and provide some examples of where VGChartz is/was inappropriately linked.

Hope this helps! — Newslinger talk 22:45, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

It’s that time of year!

Christmas tree worm, (Spirobranchus gigantic) Atsme Talk 📧 18:28, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
	Time To Spread A Little Happy Holiday Cheer!!
	I decorated a special kind of Christmas tree in the spirit of the season. What's especially nice about this digitized version: *it doesn't need water *won't catch fire *and batteries aren't required.
	Have a very Merry Christmas - Happy Hanukkah‼️ and a prosperous New Year!! 🍸🎁 🎉

Happy holidays, Atsme! I checked out your other photos, and the landscapes are stunning. You captured some really nice shots that make me want to travel. — Newslinger talk 00:38, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Bulk expansion of RS/P for more geographies

Hi Newslinger. I saw your RfA (!voted support of course - best of luck) and noticed your work on RS/P.

There has been a discussion at NPP, particularly with Rosguill and Barkeep49, on expanding sources in wider geographies that New Page Patrollers can use. One point raised is that the RS/P list is not great for wider geographies (e.g. India which should have The Hindu, and Ireland which should have The Irish Times, as RS/Ps).

My question to you is whether you could help/advise on doing a "batch RS/P" (e.g. longer list at once), of unambiguous tier 1 newspapers (and other sources) for wider geographies? It would not solve Rosguill/Barkeep49's problem (as more than RS/P are probably needed), but it could certainly help a lot? Britishfinance (talk) 12:42, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Britishfinance, Newslinger offered some great thoughts when Rosguill brought this to the Village Pump. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:52, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) @Britishfinance and Barkeep49: This was the subject of some discussion in Boston last month, including @Airplaneman: among others. I kindof floated a similar idea to help expand the coverage of the list without totally tossing out the current inclusion standards.

In a nutshell, many source don't make the list simply because they're stellar, and no one feels the need to really ask the question about sources everyone pretty much agrees on. So the idea was to start an RSN discussion to see what 110% pristine unquestionable sources everyone could agree on, and then have a mini little RfC to reference at the RSP entry. GMG^talk 15:58, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Barkeep49 – that was an excellent response by Newslinger at the pump (and that this is not an affirmative action type proposal, which makes it a more durable long-term solution). Also fully agree with GreenMeansGo. I do AIV work from time to time, and a high proportion involves Indic-articles (ultimately, a great endorsement of en-WP that they are so active on it), but it is hard to discern the Daily Mail versus The Times of India. As I said at the NPP discussion above, this is not just an NPP problem, it is a wider en-WP problem, so the solution of materially upgrading RS/P at a first stop, will benefit us all. How do we get this started? (noting that Newslinger is going to be v. busy for the next 7-days on their RfA). Britishfinance (talk) 16:35, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Presumably we would start by opening an unstructured discussion at RSN to gauge 1) whether a "batch review" is something people support in principle, and 2) what sources everyone can agree on that are so uncontroversial they don't require individual discussion. If this coalesces into a list of widely agreed upon sources, then we use that as the basis for an RfC. We've then got two discussion to link to at RSP, and so each source would meet the inclusion criteria for the list. GMG^talk 17:01, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Feel free to comment at WP:RSN#Uncontroversial sources everyone can pretty much agree on. GMG^talk 17:50, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

These are great ideas! I'll respond at the noticeboard discussion. — Newslinger talk 00:28, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

New Page Review newsletter December 2019

Reviewer of the Year

This year's Reviewer of the Year is Rosguill. Having gotten the reviewer PERM in August 2018, they have been a regular reviewer of articles and redirects, been an active participant in the NPP community, and has been the driving force for the emerging NPP Source Guide that will help reviewers better evaluate sourcing and notability in many countries for which it has historically been difficult.

Special commendation again goes to Onel5969 who ends the year as one of our most prolific reviewers for the second consecutive year. Thanks also to Boleyn and JTtheOG who have been in the top 5 for the last two years as well.

Several newer editors have done a lot of work with CAPTAIN MEDUSA and DannyS712 (who has also written bots which have patrolled thousands of redirects) being new reviewers since this time last year.

Thanks to them and to everyone reading this who has participated in New Page Patrol this year.

Top 10 Reviewers over the last 365 days

Rank	Username	Num reviews	Log
1	Rosguill (talk)	47,395	Patrol Page Curation
2	Onel5969 (talk)	41,883	Patrol Page Curation
3	JTtheOG (talk)	11,493	Patrol Page Curation
4	Arthistorian1977 (talk)	5,562	Patrol Page Curation
5	DannyS712 (talk)	4,866	Patrol Page Curation
6	CAPTAIN MEDUSA (talk)	3,995	Patrol Page Curation
7	DragonflySixtyseven (talk)	3,812	Patrol Page Curation
8	Boleyn (talk)	3,655	Patrol Page Curation
9	Ymblanter (talk)	3,553	Patrol Page Curation
10	Cwmhiraeth (talk)	3,522	Patrol Page Curation

(The top 100 reviewers of the year can be found here)

Redirect autopatrol

A recent Request for Comment on creating a new redirect autopatrol pseduo-permission was closed early. New Page Reviewers are now able to nominate editors who have an established track record creating uncontroversial redirects. At the individual discretion of any administrator or after 24 hours and a consensus of at least 3 New Page Reviewers an editor may be added to a list of users whose redirects will be patrolled automatically by DannyS712 bot III.

Source Guide Discussion

Set to launch early in the new year is our first New Page Patrol Source Guide discussion. These discussions are designed to solicit input on sources in places and topic areas that might otherwise be harder for reviewers to evaluate. The hope is that this will allow us to improve the accuracy of our patrols for articles using these sources (and/or give us places to perform a WP:BEFORE prior to nominating for deletion). Please watch the New Page Patrol talk page for more information.

This month's refresher course

While New Page Reviewers are an experienced set of editors, we all benefit from an occasional review. This month consider refreshing yourself on Wikipedia:Notability (geographic features). Also consider how we can take the time for quality in this area. For instance, sources to verify human settlements, which are presumed notable, can often be found in seconds. This lets us avoid the (ugly) 'Needs more refs' tag.

Delivered by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) at 16:11, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

RfC Help

Could you help here with an RfC, as you did help me? X1\ (talk) 00:45, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi X1\, since there is already high participation in WP:RSN § PragerU - an unreliable source?, you could convert the existing discussion into an RfC by adding the {{rfc}} tag along with a brief and neutral statement directly under the section heading (above the rest of the discussion). However, I don't think there's any rush to start an RfC on PragerU for one special reason.

Most modern sources publish the majority of their content on their own websites. PragerU is different because they are first and foremost a YouTube (RSP entry) channel, and their website (with an Alexa rank of 86,842) gets a relatively small slice of their traffic. YouTube is already considered generally unreliable because it's a self-published source, so most of PragerU is already covered by YouTube's classification. Because YouTube doesn't identify the video's channel in their video URLs, deprecating PragerU would only affect its website (which gets just a little bit of traffic), and not its YouTube channel (which gets most of their traffic).

The decision on whether to start an RfC is ultimately up to you, but keep in mind that there are currently 8 active RfCs on the noticeboard. I'm not seeing any issues at the moment, but if the volume of the RfC eventually becomes a problem, the noticeboard might adopt some limitations on RfCs in the future. — Newslinger talk 14:18, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for your adroit comments. X1\ (talk) 22:47, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

No problem! — Newslinger talk 11:30, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Happy days!

😄 ^Atsme _Talk 📧 16:23, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

Congrats!

Your RfA looks like it's half way through being closed, so congrats on such a staunch RfA - I hope you enjoy it as a good Christmas present! Nosebagbear (talk) 10:59, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

You've got mail

Hello, Newslinger. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

ミラP 16:17, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Congratulations

I’m not you but i can definitely feel the euphoria on your behalf. Congratulations once more 🎉🎉🎉 Celestina007 (talk) 21:59, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Congrats ~

	~ Happy Holidays ~
	~ Nice way to start the year ~ ~mitch~ (talk) 13:14, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Good luck

豊かな十年へようこそ/WELCOME TO THE D20s

Miraclepine wishes you a Merry Christmas, a Happy New Year, and a prosperous decade of change and fortune.
このミラPはNewslingerたちのメリークリスマスも新年も変革と幸運の豊かな十年をおめでとうございます！
フレフレ、みんなの未来！/GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR FUTURE!
ミラP 02:44, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

A goat for you!

Congratulations on your RfA and apologies for having missed it. I'm not sure why, but this image seems appropriate.

Doug Weller talk 17:23, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks

		The Signpost Barnstar
		From the acting Editor-in-Chief of The Signpost: for your excellent Special report in the December 2019 issue. Hope we'll be seeing more from you there. ☆ Bri (talk) 18:46, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, Bri! I look forward to contributing again when the opportunity arises. — Newslinger talk 19:21, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

I have given you a wooden pole with floppy bits on the end

	Your mop
	Congratulations on passing RfA. I hereby bestow upon you the required equipment. Please use it carefully. Well done. Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:04, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Congrats! Welcome to the corps. Remember: nominators get 10% of your salary! ~ Amory (u • t • c) 11:19, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

• Congratulations! Puddleglum ^2.0 16:06, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
• Congratulations for adminship !! CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 17:20, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Congrats..The admins' T-shirt for you. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 17:20, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

• I must say that I absolutely love the heading Dweller! Anyhow, Newslinger: congratulations are in order on the successful passing of your RfA! If you ever have any questions, myself, other admins, and the 'crats are all around to help. Don't hesitate to reach out . --TheSandDoctor ^Talk 19:36, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Just to add: feel free to raid my scripts (and their history) - or anyone else's for that matter - for ideas. Plenty of useful admin scripts are around. --TheSandDoctor ^Talk 19:43, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

• Congrats on the mop! — Bilorv (talk) 21:37, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
• Congratulations on your RFA, Happy blocking! :). –Davey2010^Talk 21:45, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

	New Admin Torch
	From Dreamy Jazz to Newslinger: Congratulations for your successful request for adminship. Please guard this eternal flame and forward it to the next successful candidate. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 talk to me | my contributions 22:10, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you so much for taking the time to participate in my RfA! I really appreciate all of your comments, including your constructive criticism. Many of you have said that you prefer to see me do more article writing, and I'd also like to dedicate more time in this area. To start, I've joined WikiProject Journalism. From now on, when I do research for discussions on the reliable sources noticeboard, I'll add information on publications and journalists to the respective articles when there's a suitable opportunity to do so. I eventually hope to bring an article up to featured article standards, although the topic will probably be related to free and open-source software instead of journalism.

If you have any questions for me, or if you ever want to discuss any of my actions, this talk page is always open. I hope you enjoy the rest of your holiday season! — Newslinger talk 01:25, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

• Congrats and best wishes! I'm sorry I didn't participate, I meant to and the time just got away from me! You're going to be great! --valereee (talk) 03:38, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

• Wow, did I have anything to do with this? I am just now hearing that you've run, and (unsurprisingly) succeeded. What a delightful bit of news! Congratulations to you and to all of WP. Hoorah! petrarchan47คุก 04:05, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Belated holiday greetings

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• File:Christmas Train Lanterns With Capiz.jpg

Belated holiday greetings. Merry Christmas and happy new year.
↠Pine (✉) 05:59, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

/* Google Bookmarks */

fyi Newslinger, I am NOT affiliated with Online Bookmark IncSearch in any way. I am simply an experienced user of the product. --Lbecque (talk) 05:47, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for replying – that's good to know. I've responded on Talk:Google Bookmarks. — Newslinger talk 19:51, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

AWB

While it's not a huge deal, and yes I am being a little nitpicky, but if you're going to add a half-dozen people to the AWB Check Page you might as well just make one edit. Primefac (talk) 19:06, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

​No problem, I didn't realize it was standard to bundle all of the additions into one edit. I'll do that from now on. — Newslinger talk 22:38, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

I wouldn't necessarily call it standard, since I'm one of the few admins that actually seems to patrol the AWB requests, just a thought to save you an edit (or five). You do you; I usually view changes "since last visit" anyway. Primefac (talk) 23:39, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Happy New Year, Newslinger!

Happy New Year!

Newslinger,
Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.
-Nahal^(T) 23:37, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

   Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year fireworks}} to user talk pages.

Happy New Year!

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Happy New Year!

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  MMXX Lunar Calendar

Newslinger,
Have a great 2020 and thanks for your continued contributions to Wikipedia.

---

   – 2020 is a leap year – news article.
   – Background color is Classic Blue (#0F4C81), Pantone's 2020 Color of the year

Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year 2020}} to user talk pages.

– Utopes (talk) 04:38, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

User I Meeet

Hello - I'm reaching out to you since I saw you take action on Keyur Varsani's talk page. User "I meeet" made edits which were not encyclopedic and reverted. Therefore, I put a level 1 warning on his talk page, he deleted his talk page, then went on to clear my user page: edit 1. I placed another warning on his page to not do such edits as that is frowned upon, and he went on to add derogatory remarks in Gujarati on my user page: edit 2. Can you assist me in taking action against this type of behavior? Thank you! Apollo1203 (talk) 22:09, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Apollo1203, that clarifies what the messages on User talk:Keyur Varsani were referring to. Since I meeet has stopped editing for now, I think the last warning you posted on User talk:I meeet should be enough. If I meeet continues to vandalize pages in the future, please submit a report to Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism (WP:AIV) and an administrator will handle it. — Newslinger talk 02:46, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Thank you! Apollo1203 (talk) 03:33, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

belated

Belated congrats on your successful RfA! I was aware of it but busy enough onwiki and IRL that I was pressed for time; I don't like to !vote unless I can spend some time, and as it was clear my input wasn't going to be needed, I just watched, but I'm very happy to see you become a sysop! --valereee (talk) 03:49, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Valereee! If there's ever anything I can help with in the future, just let me know and I'll do my best. Happy New Year! — Newslinger talk 03:53, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

I have no doubt! You were terrifically helpful in holding my hand while I bumbled through enabling two-factor authentication. :) --valereee (talk) 03:59, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

— Newslinger talk 04:00, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Synada

You deleted this as a "redirect to a deleted or non-existent page". Could you tell me what that page was? Thanks, Srnec (talk) 05:35, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Hi Srnec, Synada pointed to Synnada when I deleted the redirect on 29 December 2019 in response to a G8 speedy deletion request. At that time, the Synnada article had been deleted and did not exist. I see that Cplakidas moved Synnada in Phrygia to Synnada on 2 January 2020, and I've restored Synada to redirect to Synnada again. Thanks for bringing this up. — Newslinger talk 15:04, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

A beer for you!

Do you ever see a new admin around the encyclopedia doing good admin work, and it gives you that warm fuzzy feeling that the project is now running a little bit better than it was before? Just wanted to say thanks for pursuing and using the mop! – Levivich 05:48, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Levivich! If I ever do something that gives you second thoughts, please don't hesitate to point it out. — Newslinger talk 15:07, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Speedy Undeletion of Draft:Precious Plastic?

Newslinger, Did I make a mistake by not starting a fresh draft, or can this happen presto/changeo? :D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_undeletion#Draft:Precious_Plastic Thanks! -- Yae4 (talk) 20:29, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Hi Yae4, it looks like Muboshgu beat me to it. In the future, if you'd like to work on a old draft that was previously deleted under WP:G13, requesting undeletion is indeed the right thing to do. — Newslinger talk 21:44, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Anti-Vandalism Barnstar
	Thank you for blocking 108.184.112.159 per my request at WP:AIV! Thanks, Thatoneweirdwikier Say hi 08:04, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for making the report, Thatoneweirdwikier! It's folks like you who keep Wikipedia running smoothly. — Newslinger talk 08:06, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Joe Judge page.

Hi, I notice you protected the page to Joe Judge (American football) and saw that someone put that he is the Giants head coach. This is reports only as I see it and I checked the Giants Instagram, Twitter and Facebook pages (which they are reliable sources with a blue check mark by the name). I had issues with the this on the Mike McCarthy (American football) page and had to keep constantly reverting the page back before the official announcement was made by the Cowboys themselves. I am not trying to be a vandal here but deals can fall through with coaches. TheBigMan720 (talk) 03:48, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Hi TheBigMan720, I semi-protected this article because it was recently vandalized enough times by anonymous IP editors. Rest assured that it had nothing to do with your edits to the article. Since your account is autoconfirmed, the protection doesn't affect you and you can continue to edit the article normally. I hope this helps! — Newslinger talk 03:53, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Okay thank you I understand. TheBigMan720 (talk) 03:54, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Thank you

Hello, I just wanted to drop a note and thank you for range-blocking Special:Contributions/2601:206:4080:a680::/64 so quickly after I filed my AIV report. I really appreciate it! Aoi (青い) (talk) 08:21, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

​No problem, and thanks for keeping track of the long-term abuse at User:Aoi/vandalism, which made evaluating the situation much easier. Persistent vandalism can be exhausting to address, and you did a lot to help keep this incident under control. — Newslinger talk 08:26, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks regarding Buzzinga blocks / Weikfield move

I was about to message you about the same issue of User:BuzzingaWiki with User:Joel Buzzinga, but I see that you've already taken care of that and the article now at Draft:Weikfield Foods. Thanks for the help and thorough investigation! — MarkH₂₁^talk 08:24, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

No problem, and thanks for catching this. The Buzzinga Digital issue might cover more than these two users, and I'll post to the conflict of interest noticeboard after some more research. — Newslinger talk 08:36, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

The report is at WP:COIN § Undisclosed paid editing from Buzzinga Digital. — Newslinger talk 10:44, 8 January 2020 (UTC)