Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions
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*''A constructive suggestion''. Could an uninvolved admin look at [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Donald_Trump&oldid=746353201#RfC:_Lead_issues_regarding_recent_news.2Fallegations this RfC] and close it please, one way or another. End of story. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 01:18, 27 October 2016 (UTC) |
*''A constructive suggestion''. Could an uninvolved admin look at [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Donald_Trump&oldid=746353201#RfC:_Lead_issues_regarding_recent_news.2Fallegations this RfC] and close it please, one way or another. End of story. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 01:18, 27 October 2016 (UTC) |
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*P.S. Note that DrFleischman just threatened to report yet another user on WP:AE [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tataral&diff=prev&oldid=746417859] and ... violated 1RR rule on this page [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&diff=746327393&oldid=746324445],[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&diff=746418129&oldid=746387008] (note that both his edits are restoration of "content challenged by reversion" he complains about here). DrFleischman is well aware of the 1RR restriction on this page, but refused to comply [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:DrFleischman&oldid=742695481#1RR]. Note that I made only three edits on this page during a week. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 10:46, 27 October 2016 (UTC) |
*P.S. Note that DrFleischman just threatened to report yet another user on WP:AE [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tataral&diff=prev&oldid=746417859] and ... violated 1RR rule on this page [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&diff=746327393&oldid=746324445],[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&diff=746418129&oldid=746387008] (note that both his edits are restoration of "content challenged by reversion" he complains about here). DrFleischman is well aware of the 1RR restriction on this page, but refused to comply [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:DrFleischman&oldid=742695481#1RR]. Note that I made only three edits on this page during a week. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 10:46, 27 October 2016 (UTC) |
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====Statement by Tataral==== |
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If I'm not mistaken, User:DrFleischman has made at least 3 reverts during the last 24 hours in violation of 1RR. It is somewhat amusing that this user, DrFleischman, who is engaging in revert warring and battleground behaviour to such an extent, threatens to file frivolous reports over the same issue against one editor after another (who unlike him haven't edit warred and who have made only one edit during a whole week reinstating the stable and consensus-supported version) when he doesn't get it his way. When someone claims everyone else is wrong, it's usually the other way round. |
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When reading the talk page in its entirety, after 2 weeks of discussion, it is clear based on policy-based arguments that there is consensus to include a brief mention of the controversy, in the form of the wording that has been stable for quite some time now. Numerous editors have presented sound policy-based arguments (summed up nicely by JasperTECH under the heading "My comment copied from below") in favour of its inclusion, at least in the form of a brief mention (as is currently the case), but on the other hand there is a case to be made that consensus is against including a whole paragraph on it, as was originally the case. The current two-sentence wording is much shorter than the original paragraph, and also a lot more neutral, and is really a compromise and the result of painstaking work by many editors to find an acceptable, neutral and WP:DUE wording that complies with the BLP policy to the maximum extent possible. If User:DrFleischman disagrees with it, he should seek consensus on the talk page instead of revert-warring or trying to bully other editors. --[[User:Tataral|Tataral]] ([[User talk:Tataral|talk]]) 11:49, 27 October 2016 (UTC) |
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====Statement by (username)==== |
====Statement by (username)==== |
Revision as of 12:03, 27 October 2016
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions
Important information Please use this page only to:
For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Md iet
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Md iet (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Md iet (talk) 04:46, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- Topic ban from the subject of Dawoodi Bohra, imposed at this WP:AN3 complaint.
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- EdJohnston (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.
Statement by Md iet
Due to above ban I indirectly helped others on the subject and got blocked indefinitely. I realized my fault later and pardoned(Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive278#Standard_offer_unblock_request_from_Md_iet, User talk:Md iet#Unblocked) as I understood the harm caused to Wikipedia unknowingly and pledged to rectify myself. Now request further to lift topic ban related with Dawoodi Bohra considering my attitude and actions shown after this unblock. I think by now I understand WP:Neutral point of view, WP:Reliable sources, and WP:Original research better.
- The articles mentioned by Adamfinmo are general articles covering all Islam/ Taiyabi Ismaili. During discussion of lifting my block it was clearly mentioned that banning me of general Islam topics would be impropriate. Please analyze the specific edit mentioned. These are not affecting any status cu of Dawoodi Bohra topics rather than helping Wikipedia users get properly directed/not get mislead. Information corrected was misleading in one case. The person Mohammad Burhanuddin already dead was presented as live. This I felt not proper of Wikipedia. In the second case, it was just like spelling correction, only [[..]] bracket was added to felicitate reader further. --Md iet (talk) 03:25, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks User:EdJohnston, for your support helping my intentions contribute Wikipedia. Declaring one of the claimants victorious was one of the case because of which I got banned. This was the case of not understanding difference between actual correct v/s encyclopedic correct. I feel after this long episode I have better understanding and in position to assure nonrepeating similar blunders. --Md iet (talk) 03:23, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by EdJohnston
I would support relaxing the ban to allow User:Md iet to participate on *talk pages* regarding the Dawoodi Bohra, but not regarding articles. If you check Talk:India/Archive 39#Alternate name Bharat you'll see him advocating changing our India article to refer to the country, in the opening sentence, as 'India that is Bharat' rather than 'India'. His knowledge of English seems too limited for us to expect that he can create well-written prose especially in disputed articles like those that concern the Dawoodi Bohra. His statements in that thread also suggest a weak grasp of consensus, since the name of India has been extensively discussed in the talk archives. The topic on which Md iet has been (in the past) unable to edit neutrally is the 53rd Syedna succession controversy (Dawoodi Bohra). Md iet was editing to declare that one of the claimants had been victorious in the dispute, prior to mainstream media having agreed on that. EdJohnston (talk) 00:49, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Adamfinmo
It is worth noting that Md iet, has edited in on the topic of Dawoodi Bohra at least twice recently, that I could see. diff, diff.--Adam in MO Talk 02:51, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
I'm not an administrator, nor am I involved in any way with this editor or the topic space. I'm concerned that this editor has repeatedly edited in direct violation of their topic ban, multiple times, and very recently. The were explicitly instructed: "You will not edit any articles which relate to Dawoodi Bohra, even distantly." They acknowledged that they understood this and still made repeated edits to the Islam in India article. --Adam in MO Talk 21:53, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 2)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Md iet
Result of the appeal by Md iet
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Since the sanctioning admin EdJohnston is in favor of another chance, I think we ought to give one. Theoretically, he could just relax the sanction himself, since he imposed it, and I certainly see no reason to override his judgment. Seraphimblade Talk to me 02:28, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
- Concur with the above and with EdJohnston's terms. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:51, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
- I have no issue with EdJohnston's suggestion, but the two diffs showing he has actually broken the ban at least twice, albeit with small edits, should be noted. The topic ban on articles still stands, and if he edits another article directly this way, he will be fully banned again. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 22:55, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
Anythingyouwant 2
Anythingyouwant (talk · contribs) is banned from the topic of post-1932 politics of the United States, and closely related people, broadly construed, until the 2016 US presidential election is complete and the losing candidate has conceded, or until December 1, whichever is earlier. Vanamonde (talk) 10:46, 27 October 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Anythingyouwant
That's four reverts on an article under 1RR restriction.
I am filing this per User:Seraphimblade's comment in closing the above AE request [5] Any other issues should be brought up as separate issues rather than being rolled into this one.. While I agree with the closure of the above request, and that THOSE two edits were justified on BLP grounds, THESE FOUR reverts are not. This appears to be a case of Anythingyouwant running wild and interpreting favorable comments on the previous issue as a carte blanche to revert at will. In this particular case, the edits being reverted are NOT a BLP violation as they are strongly sourced AND there is consensus for the wording on talk [6] (note that because Anythingyouwant started to move other people's comments around some of the flow of the conversation got compromised) This comment Anythingyouwant clearly indicates that they are aware that "sexual assault" is a potentially valid and sourced way to describe what happened - forcible groping and kissing is "sexual assault" (and ATW agrees). So EVEN IF Anythingyouwant prefers a different description they cannot invoke BLP to make the change. The fact that they did so indicates they are acting in bad faith and making attempts at WP:GAMEing policy. It seems that Anythingyouwant is trying to use the fact that they were correct in ONE PARTICULAR instance as some kind of twisted mandate to exempt themselves from 1RR... or even 3RR. And seriously, starting another edit war, and making four reverts on a 1RR article WHILE there's an open AE request on you for the very thing is just... uh, bad form. Or it's a brazen flaunting of the rules. Tiptoe, Masem, you're trying to argue about content as a way to derail the discussion. But the problem is the 4 (or is it now 5?) reverts in 24hrs on a 1RR article done under a false pretext. You can discuss the issue on talk page if you want. The question here is simply did these edits violate 1RR. Which of course they did.Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:12, 20 October 2016 (UTC) Just a quick comment on people who are saying something along the lines of "both sides should be sanctioned or neither". No. Yes, there are two sides, and there is disagreement. But disagreement by itself is not sanctionable. What is sanctionable is making 5 reverts on an article under 1RR. And ONLY ONE person has done that. Anythingyouwant. Come on! Shortly before he went on his edit warring spree Anything was agitating for other editors to be sanctioned for making a SINGLE EDIT! Not five, one. And it, unlike Anything's reverts, had consensus too. If that's not WP:BATTLEGROUND I don't know what is. Same goes for several of his supportive commentators.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:32, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
Discussion concerning AnythingyouwantStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by AnythingyouwantWill deal with this tomorrow, gotta get sleep.Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:06, 20 October 2016 (UTC) Might I suggest tweaking the top-level header to distinguish it from the other identical header? I probably won't get to this until late tonight (it's now 1:46 PM where I am). In the mean time, please note that an almost identical complaint was brought up yesterday toward the end of the other Anythingyouwant section, and I wrote some responsive material there,[7] and that section was closed with this statement:
So, when I respond to the present issues tonight, I assume that the originally reported edits presented in this current section are what I need to justify or defend (not separate issues that may be subsequently raised here).Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:57, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
I won’t repeat what I already said about this accusation when it was first made in the previous section here at AE, but I will add to what I already said (as briefly as possible). It is amusing that Marek has the chutzpah to bring this action after trying to get the word "rape" into the lead.[9] As noted above, that attempt was rightly deemed a BLP violation here at AE, though Marek somehow escaped sanctions. Someone else clamoring for sanctions against me here is My very best wishes who likewise sought to violate WP:BLP by jamming "child rape" into the lead of this BLP.[10] He somehow escaped sanctions too. Isn't it amazing? But I still hold out some hope, and therefore request boomerangs against them both.
We recently had a decision at AE confirming that explicit discussion of "rape" and "child rape" is not currently suitable for this lead, per WP:BLP. My contention is that insinuating or suggesting rape fails the same test, for basically the same reasons. Vaguely saying that Trump is accused of "sexual assault" obviously suggests that he may be accused of rape or attempted rape. That’s why I have urged being specific, and have urged saying that he has been accused of forcible kissing and groping, in the lead. I do not rule out use of the term "sexual assault" in the lead, but it has to be used carefully (like I did here), in such a way as to not suggest or insinuate allegations of rape. Anyway, I stopped pressing this point via BLP edits before this AE section was even started, and will continue to let these POV-pushers have their way until a decision is made here at AE, because I do not relish the prospect of a further bogus topic ban. And that's all I have to say for now. Cheers.Anythingyouwant (talk) 00:04, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
@Admins, "While sexual assault is usually seen as rape, state statutes generally include any unwanted sexual contact...." Paludi, Michele. Campus Action Against Sexual Assault, p. 56 (ABC-CLIO, 2016). No one here has offered any evidence suggesting that "sexual assault" is not usually seen as rape. By putting "sexual assault" in this lead without elaboration, we would be defying the vast majority of reliable sources regarding the allegations against Trump (which do clarify the form of alleged sexual assault) and suggesting to readers that the allegations involve (or at least may involve) rape. This is a clear and obvious BLP violation, not to mention horrifyingly bad writing. If that's what you want, then please by all means give me a topic ban and proceed as you wish. My conscience is clear. As administrator Lankiveil says, my position is defensible, and I don't think you should be dishing out topic-bans for defensible positions, while letting all the indefensible insertions of the explicit word "rape" into the lead go completely unaddressed.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:10, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by MrXOf the four diffs listed by Marek, at least three are unambiguous reverts within a 24 hour period. Doing so under the shelter of the WP:BLP policy is blatant gaming. Regarding this edit, numerous reliable sources have characterized the allegations against Trump's as "sexual assault".[16][17][18][19][20] In this revert (5th; not in the above list) Anythingyouwant claiming that material must be restored to an article because of WP:BLP. WP:NOT3RR#EX7 does not afford any such 1RR exemption. In addition to edit warring and abusing the WP:BLP policy, Anythingyouwant continues to try to WP:GAME the system to gain an advantage in content disputes on Donald Trump-related articles:
Anythingyouwant also seems intent on polishing Donald Trump's reputation, in violation of WP:NPOV, by first formulating material that whitewashes plain facts, and then finding one or two outlier sources to support that formulation.
Apparently, Anythingyouwant has been emboldened by escaping sanctions in the previous two AE cases in which his behavior was scrutinized. At his point, I think a 6 month topic ban should be considered. I don't think a block for edit warring would have a lasting effect, nor would it address the totality of the concerns.- MrX 15:00, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by TiptoethrutheminefieldThis case follows on almost immediately after a near identical case [23] that was also raised against Anythingyouwant. The initiators of each are attempting to misuse the American Politics 2 discretionary sanctions in order to usurp our common obligation to obey BLP requirements. As in the earlier case, the content deleted by Anythingyouwant violated BLP policies and required removal. He cannot be sanctioned under subject specific sanctions for doing this. MrX claims, above, that Anythingyouwant "escaped sanctions" in that earlier case, weasely insinuating a lucky escape by a guilty party. The reality was the exact opposite: the idea that Anythingyouwant had violated sanctions was conclusively dismissed and everyone agreed that the material he removed was violating BLP requirements. The nastiness and general slimyness seen in the Donald Trump article content is getting out of hand, and I think Volunteer Markek and his ever-present sidekick My very best wishes want that state of affairs to continue. The misrepresentation and distortion of sources is blatant - I have pointed out one example of it here: [24]. Does Fyddlestix, in his definitions of "sexual assault" given below, consider shaking hands with a fully clothed 15 year old counts as "sexual assault"? The article as it is currently worded does. Here is another example: obviously off-topic detail about Mike Tyson's 1992 rape conviction added and then editorialized into being linked to his 2016 endorsement of Trump, editorialising done for no other reason I am sure than to blatantly imply guilt by association - [25]. And this stuff is actually placed in a section of the article dealing with Trump's business interests! At best, the part dealing with Tyson's 2016 endorsement could be on Donald Trump presidential campaign, 2016 as part of a listing of celebrity endorsements. I also think this here [26] is a bad faith implied threat intended to be seen by all editors working on the article - article talk pages are about content discussions and are not for notices about cases raised against individual editors. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:09, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by FyddlestixJust commenting to note that the suggestion that "sexual assault" is a BLP violation (Anythingyouwant's stated reason for the removals linked above) is wholly inaccurate. The term does not imply an accusation of rape by any stretch of the imagination. It is variously defined by some of the most authoritative sources imaginable as:
In short, this is precisely what Trump has been accused of. There are also a very large number of reliable sources that document those accusations, and which specifically apply the term "sexual assault" to Trump's case. I listed some (one example from each major American news outlet) here, but there are dozens (very likely hundreds) or RS that apply the term to Trump. So please don't give the claim of a BLP exemption any credence here, it's demonstrably false. Fyddlestix (talk) 15:56, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by SPECIFICOAnythingyouwant is evading her TBAN from abortion-related articles through a campaign of disruptive edits to articles on the US election, where the future of the Supreme Court and abortion-related law is at stake. She bludgeons discussion threads with a broad spectrum of artful, passive-aggressive deflections, equivocations, and denials to hog-tie neutral policy-based editing. I doubt she is as incompetent as her words would suggest, so I interpret this behavior to be willful (or at least uncontrollable) disruption. She's been amply warned on her talk page and on the article talk pages, but she knows most editors will not take the time and effort to file complaints such as this one. In my opinion, most editors react not by pursuing Enforcement but simply by walking away from the articles. I can't believe that Arbcom Enforcement Admin's wish to validate the disruptive editing strategy of this consummate Wikilawyer and allow her to hound ever more editors off of these abortion-related election articles. The current revert-warring has nothing in common with the one in the previous complaint, where the use of the word "rape" was not well-supported by RS and was undue and was arguably a BLP violation. SPECIFICO talk 17:05, 20 October 2016 (UTC) Anythingyouwant recently ignored warnings from several editors. Here is mine, on her talk page: [27] SPECIFICO talk 17:42, 20 October 2016 (UTC) @Masem: BLP above all, but it's been amply demonstrated that BLP does not justify Anythingyouwant's reverts. Not even plausibly. Public figure, hundreds of RS, accurately represented. SPECIFICO talk 21:24, 20 October 2016 (UTC) You're going on at length about perceived systemic bias on WP and other general concerns, but my point is that this is a complaint about specific behavior of one editor under clearly defined circumstances and the violation is verifiable and proven. Larger issues belong elsewhere. SPECIFICO talk 21:57, 20 October 2016 (UTC) Admins, you have a tough job. But you're here voluntarily and the community is counting on you. Even if it's facetious, the suggestion of rounding up active editors (I'm not one of them) and TBANning the whole carload is appalling. This is a simple case of a Anything, a deft and experienced wikilawyer, gaming the system to violate her Abortion Topic Ban -- a ban she openly renounces as illegitimate at every opportunity. Because she's so careful not to be overtly hostile or uncivil, she will not come up for any really draconian penalties, no matter how much of other editors' time she wastes. If the glove don't fit, you must acquit, but in this case it's more like "if the shoe fits, wear it." She needs to have her Abortion-related TBAN extended to American Politics, where her disruptive editing and obstruction is an obvious evasion of her existing TBAN. T-t-t-that's all folks! SPECIFICO talk 17:45, 21 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by MasemI'd echo the statement of Tiptoethrutheminefield above - while it may be true that these are accusations put against him, they have no business to be highlighted to that great a detail in the lede. I've been finding more and more that some editors seem to want to vilify any BLP that is right-leaning to the greatest extent they can by reliable sources (which are broadly left-leaning, making it easy to find material to pin on the BLP) in the lede, where instead WP:BLP advices dispassionate and impartial writing. Accusations of crimes may have a place in the lede, but if they are only accusations, they should not be given undue focus (though can be explained out in the body as allowed for by BLP). --MASEM (t) 16:43, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
To several more recent comments, while one could argue this is a content situation since we are talking about material that is reliably sourced and that I do agree belong somewhere on WP (certainly in the article(s) about the specific presidential campaigns since the accusations are influencing the election to a degree), fundamentally these accusations (neither proven nor have led to any charges) are rumors and BLP is very specific about giving undue weight to rumormongering on BLP pages (Other policy like NOT#NEWS and RECENTISM also comes to mind). They shouldn't be mentioned in the lede at all at this point, but there's a certain callousness by several editors here that give the impression "oh, but reliable sources reign over BLP", which should not be happening here, otherwise we as Wikipedia are engaging in the external problem. We need to be better than the sources when it comes to impartiality and tone. To that point, the edits tagged above by Anythingyouwant are just as problematic as the edits undoing those, since they are retaining the core problematic BLP, but they are at least de-sensationalizing the newer additions. The fact that multiple editors appeared to have restored it shows that there's a larger problem than one person involved here. The suggestion of short-term topic ban for all involved until after the election makes sense to this point, because most of this appears centered on this developing issue, but I still believe we're not solving the long-term problems with this solution, but solving that is well beyond the remit of ArbCom. --MASEM (t) 23:02, 21 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by My very best wishesHere is edit by Anythingyouwant made in violation of 1RR rule on the page. This edit does not fix any BLP violations because (a) the material in question is well-sourced and included on the page itself [28] and other pages [29],[30] and (b) the material remains in the lede even after the edit by Anythingyouwant but became less visible (note that only poorly sourced materials are exempt from 1RR rule [31]). Actually, no one disputed that the information itself was well-sourced, and must be included on the page. The dispute was about including this info in lede. Moreover, Anythingyouwant made revert of material that is currently under discussion in an RfC and was warned not make this edit in advance [32], but still did it. My very best wishes (talk) 17:35, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by James J. LambdenI'd like one of the editors accusing AnythingYouWant to point to the discussion showing consensus for the edits she reverted. Steeletrap for example, makes no attempt to gain consensus for this latest edit. The sequence as I see it here is:
Instead of talk page discussion we have edit-warring and enforcement requests. Can we require admin approval for changes, with consensus required for admin approval? I don't think that's unreasonable for the two candidates' BLPs in the weeks leading up to the election. James J. Lambden (talk) 18:25, 20 October 2016 (UTC) While I understand administrators reluctance to involve themselves, by my quick-and-dirty math about a million people viewed the Donald Trump article with dubious accusations of "child sexual abuse" or "child rape" in the lede. That should warrant serious action in any BLP. James J. Lambden (talk) 19:42, 20 October 2016 (UTC) @Drmies: The talk page lists 3 active arbitration remedies. You support (I think) sanctioning Anythingyouwant for violating the 2nd, which limits reverts to one every 24 hours, but say nothing about the filer and others who violated the 1st:
Is the 1st less important or does the warning at the top of this page, which tells filers:
not apply? James J. Lambden (talk) 02:32, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
That same phrasing (sexual assault) was reinstated by MrX (diff), SPECIFICO (diff) and My very best wishes (diff) who all presented evidence against Anythingyouwant. At the time of their edits, as now, the RFC favors exclusion from the lede or a brief mention, with no consensus to include "sexual assault", so each of these reinstatements violated the arbitration remedy that editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion) In sanctioning Anythingyouwant you'd allow the filer and several supporters to unambiguously violate a remedy, while sanctioning Anythingyouwant for violating another in reverting their violation - in a high profile BLP, regarding "sexual assault." I find it hard to believe not a single admin is concerned by that. James J. Lambden (talk) 03:55, 21 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by TataralAs pointed out by others, Anythingyouwant is "indefinitely topic-banned from abortion-related pages, broadly construed" (Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abortion). One of the main issues for Donald Trump and his party in this election, as one could expect, is abortion (often in connection with appointments to the supreme court), which was one of the key issues debated, for instance, in the most recent presidential debate, in which Trump said "I am pro life and I will be appointing pro life judges" and even more polemically that under current abortion law in the US "You can take the baby and rip the baby out of the womb in the ninth month, on the final day".[33] The fact that abortion is one of the main issues for the Republican Party in presidential elections is very well known, and Trump has made it clear for a long time, and well before the edits in question, that he is an anti-abortion political candidate who uses strong anti-abortion language and who will appoint "pro life judges". It seems quite clear that the Trump article is within the scope of a topic ban covering "abortion-related pages, broadly construed." --Tataral (talk) 03:27, 21 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by Dervorguilla"sexual assault. 1. Sexual intercourse with another person who does not consent. 2. Offensive sexual contact with another person, exclusive of rape." (Black's Law Dictionary, 10th ed.) In some states, sexual assault is understood to mean "forcible fondling" and the like. In other states, it's understood to mean "rape". An editor living in a conservative state may legitimately see a BLP violation where one living in a progressive state does not. (Note: The AP says that any statement "capable of conveying a defamatory meaning" is defamatory.) In a Wikipedia article, you can fairly and ethically say that a suspect is accused of "sexual assault" if you make clear whether the allegator accused him of (1) rape or (2) forcible fondling. Which was not the case here. It accordingly appears to me that Anythingyouwant did no wrong. --Dervorguilla (talk) 09:24, 22 October 2016 (UTC) I've read the statements by The Blade of the Northern Lights and Lankiveil, who are "almost of the view that the top 10 editors of the article ... in the past month should be banned until after the election is out of its misery" and "would not object at all to a topic ban for a number of editors on both 'sides' of this dispute until at least November 10". I'm Editor No. 8, and I support any such bilateral ban. I'd like to see how the article evolves if we let the less-invested editors take over for a few weeks. I think you could feasibly implement an informal ban by asking all top-ten editors to voluntarily withdraw from editing the article for the duration. --Dervorguilla (talk) 09:45, 22 October 2016 (UTC) 07:40, 23 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by JFGThroughout the election campaign, it has proven very hard to conduct a level-headed discussion towards building consensus. Discretionary sanctions are effective against simple trolls and relatively inexperienced editors, however experienced editors have both demonstrated uncanny capacity to skirt the rules or stonewall the process. Irrespective of political inclinations, AGF and BLP should prevail over attempts to smear a candidate or exonerate the other. This case looks like a sanctions war between two experienced editors who seem to be both exasperated by the "other side". Either we give them both a slap on the wrist in the form of a week block or we TBAN them from political topics for a few months to cut the drama. I would not condone any unilateral sanctions against one side who happened to have a slightly different reading of BLP defense than the other side. We are facing a good-faith attempt at maintaining balance, not a sneaky attempt to game the DS. Several other editors have switched the lead one way or the other, this fact alone shows there is no consensus about keeping sexual assault accusations in the lead; my personal opinion is they should be left out until the RfC concludes, but I'd rather stay uninvolved on contents here. The issue of imbalance between the way Trump and Clinton's bios are treated by the wikipedian community and journalistic sources is out of scope of this particular AE request but certainly needs to be kept in mind as background context in evaluating appropriate sanctions. — JFG talk 16:19, 21 October 2016 (UTC) Irony: A couple months ago, when discussing whether to mention Trump's campaign lies in his bio, I warned that the lead would soon read "Trump is a notorious racist bigot child molester who is very likely to start World War III over a tweet." We're getting there, BLP be damned… Sad! — JFG talk 23:52, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Mr ErnieThere are many editors in that topic area intent on using any and all sources and tidbits of information that portray Trump in a negative light. There are also many editors who are keen to oppose this approach. Mr Ernie (talk) 17:47, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Dr. FleischmanI have no opinions to share about Anythingyouwant, but I would like to say that I trust that The Blade of the Northern Lights and Lankiveil's comments on the subject here and here were made in partial jest, and that if sanctions were to go beyond Anythingyouwant then evidence would be presented and those accused would get a chance to respond. I certainly agree that there's been a lot of POV pushing at Donald Trump recently, but I certainly wouldn't want to find myself the subject of arbitrary sanctions simply for contributing to a very controversial article. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:05, 21 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by The Four DeucesI note Anythingyouwant changed "sexual assault" to "forcibly kissing and groping." The BLP issue seems to have some validity. A reader could be left with the impression that these were accusations of rape or similar felonies. I note that many news sources to refer to the allegations as "sexual assault," but they also clarify what the specific claims are. The version of the lead with "sexual assault" does not do that. While Anythingyouwant has explained their reasons for changing the wording, I would ask the administrators examining this complaint to read the edit summaries and arguments against the change. Basically they are that by definition, it constitutes sexual assault, reliable sources use the term and there is consensus to keep it. As I mentioned above, sources that use the term clarify the specific claims. But none of them explain how it improves the article. TFD (talk) 22:54, 21 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by (Markbassett)???? What is listed seems clearly not 4 reverts (maybe too late but here's my $0.02) The first two cited here and here have the same text 'Late in Trump's campaign', so show one revert to put his prior edit back in place. (The note on both mention reverting so maybe two reverts. The next two there and there do not have the same text, so are not reverts of that prior item. They are also not the same between themselves -- it looks like Any changed "accusing him of varying degrees of assault" to "groping or forcible kissing by him" under note assault would mean rape; then when someone reinstated prior language a few (?) revs later he puts in a note "reverting to Dr. Fleischman' which edits an earlier part of the same line -- not to his third edit, it's undoing whoever reverted multiple intervening edits. Not a revert to his own language apparently, for whatever mitigation that may be. Again here what's shown is a mention of revert. I didn't go thru the history to see if I could confirm that they are actually reverts or not, but if that makes 3 it seems a bit mitigated that he was being self-reporting. It's a bit of sidenote - but there's a lot of thrash over 'bragging' vs 'reported as bragging' vs 'talked' and whether it's about 'sexual misconduct' vs 'capability for' vs 'sexual assault' -- plus whether 'sexual assault' should be viewed as saying the felony 'rape'. Markbassett (talk) 20:00, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
Comment by Shock Brigade Harvester BorisGiven the unprecedented goings-on in the current U.S. presidential election it may be wise for any sanctions to continue until the outcome of the election is no longer a matter of significant dispute, or similar wording. The possibility of a drawn-out, acrimonious state-by-state legal challenge to the validity of the election is presently being discussed in high-end reliable sources.[34] These are strange times. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:00, 24 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by The WordsmithI am Recused from 2016 election-related articles, as usual. However as an editor, I would tend to largely agree with Dennis Brown here. Sexual assault and rape are not the same thing, however in many areas sexual assault is a euphemism for rape. The issue is not one of definition, but connotation. And having watched the discussions on that article for some time, good faith is failing and I have little doubt that the connotation wasn't absolutely intentional. It may not be a BLP vio by the literal text, but it definitely is by implication. I believe an admonishment is appropriate here, and after the election I predict that this topic area will be much quieter without the need for bans. The WordsmithTalk to me 14:12, 25 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by SashiRolls
Statement by AwilleyThis is a tough case for me. I think that Anythingyouwant's reverts were good in that they were on the right side of BLP, and were in line with the relevant discussion on the talk page. But I'm not convinced it was the kind of clear-cut BLP violation that warrants an exemption to 1RR. I think the Trump article needs experienced editors to counter the folks who want, say, an entire paragraph in the Lead devoted to sexual assault allegations. Anythingyouwant has certainly been that, but in the process has been engaging in long term borderline behavior, knowing that it would eventually lead to a topic ban. (I can provide diffs if requested.) In short, I think a topic ban is overdue, but it bugs me that this particular issue is the last straw. ~Awilley (talk) 16:37, 26 October 2016 (UTC) Result concerning Anythingyouwant
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SageRad
On hold until 26 November 2016, to run concurrently with a voluntary wikibreak by SageRad. Bishonen | talk 08:42, 26 October 2016 (UTC). | ||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning SageRad
SageRad is on a campaign against skepticism and for giving more credence to altmed, and this WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior, civil as it may be, has been consistently disruptive on fringey medical and CAM topics like fad diets. The key issues are BLUDGEONing discussion with long soapbox-y rants against "skepticism" and for "Truth " -- a consistent behavior of using talk pages as forums, talking about "meta-issues", etc, instead of focused discussion on crafting content based on sources per policy and guidelines. He also misrepresents sources in the course of his arguments. In all of that, he fails to yield to consensus, and accuses other editors of lacking "integrity". His presence on these topics is just a tremendous time sink.
He has continued that campaign in WP space:
What spurs this filing, is that SageRad has continued this campaign -- really WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior -- against the perceived skeptic takeover, in article space this fall.
If you look at SageRad's contribs, this anti-skeptic pro-altmed editing is pretty much all they do here (with the exception of some Race & Intelligence work and some scattered editing on basic biology). In all these cases he is making difficult editing situations worse by adding his meta-issue to whatever the local issues are. Am suggesting a TBAN from anything related to health, as it is articles about health/alt med where he has mostly brought his SOAPBOXing and disruptive, time-wasting behavior. I would suggest alt med more narrowly but I don't want to get into endless border disputes. Jytdog (talk) 22:22, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
Discussion concerning SageRadStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by SageRadWow. I think a few specific editors have it out for me and are making mountains out of molehills because they have it out for me. I do my best to follow sources and make good edits. On Jimbo's page, i speak to patterns i see within Wikipedia. Big deal. I use forums for discussion as they're intended. Big deal. Ironically, i've been having issues with Jytdog, the very editor who brought this here, for the whole time i've been on Wikipedia. Most recently, we've been at loggerheads on the Misophonia article. I don't think i have any other atypical conditions, but i have suffered from misophonia all my life, and only recently learned that others have the very same specific condition. And so i was learning more from MEDRS sources, and made few edits there too. And now that article seems to have a pretty serious WP:OWNership problem with this editor. Anyway, i just filed a request at the NPOV noticeboard for other editors to help out with that article, providing help with neutrality. And then i saw the notice about this AE case, and i just have to say Wow i'm pretty incredulous. Didn't even read the long diatribe by Jytdog. I'm honest, forthright, and speak what i see. In editing articles i've improved greatly since i began, and i think i understand the policies well. I edit according to policies. I speak honestly. I want good article -- nothing more. I want good articles that follow the best sources. Other people have issues that i speak to problems in Wikipedia. Are you going to shoot me for speaking? If so then it's on your hands. SageRad (talk) 11:27, 24 October 2016 (UTC) I'm pretty busy, have a child, and working. Last thing i want is drama. This is ridiculous. To anyone who sees Jytdog's lengthy diatribe, i ask you to simply choose any one aspect, and look at it in depth. Don't be fooled by the size of the complaint. See if it really holds up under a microscope. I'm not perfect, but i edit with integrity and following the policies of Wikipedia. Wikipedia has problems, but it's not me. SageRad (talk) 11:44, 24 October 2016 (UTC) Tiny note. So i saw Jytdog said "That discussion was moved to WT:FRINGE where he has written stuff like this" with a link here. Note that this contained typos and missing words and you should actually read this diff -- Jytdog, will you change that in your long long thing about me please? Wouldn't want to deceive a reader, would we? The difference in the text is huge in light of this case, and it's obvious i revised that immediately. SageRad (talk) 11:50, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
By the way, contrary to what Jytdog said, i do have access to most journal articles through my past university lab affiliation. Lastly, i admit i may have spoken too much about patterns within Wikipedia, or attributing motives to other editors, which should not use space on talk pages. Sometimes it's a response to the mirror image accusations made about me. In many ways, i appreciate Jytdog's integrity. In some ways, he really does own up to some sorts of mistakes and make corrections. He really does want to make the encyclopedia the best it can be, i believe, but perhaps needs to consider some things more carefully from time to time and not be so reactive. Sorry if that's too much critique to speak of another editor. I mean it with good will. SageRad (talk) 00:53, 25 October 2016 (UTC) Oh look.......... all the dozen or so enemies are out making horribly distorted and untrue nd biased and polemic statements against me. This is onerous and there ought to be a boomerang instead of me being on the defense. Jytdog needs to be reigned in. Everything he says about me is actually showing HIM to be on a "right great wrongs" bender, with a mission to eradicate people who disagree with him on some axes. I don't even have time for this shit. SageRad (talk) 15:47, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Jytdog has mounted an ideological crusade, and the people who are in continuous agreement with this come out to cheer "Yeah! Yeah! Yeah!" and others actually allow this. Get the hypocrisy, the irony:
If you let this happen, you have blood on your hands. See what's happening here. Speaking these things is not a crime! The shooting of people for speaking these things is a crime. Most of y'all who've come out of the woodword (predictably) are in the same camp -- demonstrably through your actions, words, and edits -- doing the very thing you're accusing me of merely speaking about. This place is damned. This place is gone. This place is captured by an ideological crew. I hold strong and true to everything i've said through my time here. It's more instructive who's come out to make statements against me, than the content of those statements. You can see who hates my presence here because they hate the things i say. That is instructive. Think for yourself, observers. Kill me if you must but i will not pander or lie.
Bishonen -- i just saw your comment in which you pinged me. I would like to request a month to get a defense together then. I would be able to process and not feel in jeopardy of a hammer coming down at any moment. The process has felt uncontrollable so far, with the sheer volume of Jytdog's long statement in which i'm described as a demon at all turns. It's far above the 500 word traditional word limit and it's too demonizing to make a simple statement about. It's too deep of a problem and needs some serious addressing. Another thing i would ask is to be able to erase the current statement and make a coherent new one. I've been in a panic mode of sorts and other things in life have been too demanding, and as a result i've written off the cuff. I've also been in shocked traumatic response to the half dozen people who've been in bad conflict with me for a long time all coming out of the woodwork to make horrible statements about me. Wow talk about a jury of one's enemies. SageRad (talk) 16:09, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Good luck with that. Unfortunately the effect is disgusting upon this repository supposedly of the world's knowledge which pretends to be independent and open-source but is actually controlled in this blatant way, though not obvious to those who have not been through the wringer like i have. So, good job! You've got a mouthpiece that appears to be neutral but is actually captured! I think someone is pleased with this establishment status quo. And the irony is my saying this will be ground for my destruction as a voice in the world of Wikipedia. Well, give me liberty of give me death. Guess you're choosing to give me death.
Here's the thing. I do see patterns here. I see editing patterns. Who doesn't? Is it wrong to speak of them? If it's wrong then Jytdog's entire screed is wrong. If it's not wrong, then it's okay. So why the double standard? Why's it alright for Jytdog at Talk:Misophonia to accuse others of advocacy editing, whereas to say that there are problematic patterns in his or others' editing is anathema? Why is it wrong to point out the very obvious "Skeptic" memes and sources that are populating Wikipedia so ubiquitously? Why's it wrong to point out that there is indeed a project to send people to Wikipedia to edit with this directive, in fact, as documented by external sources? Why is it defined as a complete and total capital offense to speak of things in one direction, and yet the mirror image is completely sanctioned, and even praised and worshipped? Seems there is a power structure with a particular bent here. I am not "bludgeoning" -- i've spoken the same amount as others here in some public forum locations -- like Jimbo's page, and like the talk page on the "fringe" guideline. Those were places where this discussion is sanctioned --- so why is it seen as "evidence" of my "wrongdoing" when Jytdog presents these things here? And yeah -- the article on Dr Michael Greger -- i did indeed question the use of the word "skeptic" as a title for a person. So? That's good critique of the article. It's a real point that i can legally and rightfully bring up. Why is that presented as if it's a crime? Jeez.... does anyone see the craziness of this AE case? This is like The Trial. My crime? Thinking about things and speaking. Yes, it is like Stalin's Party. There are unspeakable things. You must not say them or you get taken here, and pilloried. Yes, it is like McCarthyism. Saying this is not wrong. You don't have to agree. But why is saying that a punishable offense? I'll tell you why. It's a thoughtcrime. You should think on that. Why is something a thoughtcrime here in Wikipedia? Perhaps because there is a power issue at play. Anyway, i edit according to policies. You will see within the last few months, any edit i have made to an article is 9 times out of 10 a good edit with good sources. I'm not pushing anything into articles. I'm not pushing an agenda other than to make good articles following the sources. Please, please, go to the misophonia article and the Talk:Misophonia talk page and see for yourselves. Please, see whether i am breaking any rules in a bad way, or simply trying to improve the article. With that, i will take a one month wiki-break. I need my time for other things and have too much to do to take part in a trial of this kind, and have little expectation of justice prevailing anyway. Sage Statement by JzGSageRad has taken it upon himself to be arbiter of "integrity" on Wikipedia. The recent discussions on Jimbotalk showed that Sage rejects conflicting opinion as invalid, and considers that intergrity is measured by consonance with his ideology. On his user page he links to a website promoting an "ethical skeptic" agenda, which promotes Brian Martin (conspiracy theorist and supervisor of Judith Wilyman's substandard and anti-vaccine PhD) and the website where Rupert Sheldrake, Dean Radin and others rant against pesky science for not accepting their beliefs. He has adopted the rhetoric of Rome Viharo, who was banned for sockpuppetry while promoting Sheldrake and woo-meister Deepak Chopra (where he also had a COI, IIRC). Sage has used the name of Viharo's website, Wikipedia, we have a problem, as the title of at least one o his threads: [36]. One could put this down to the aftermath of ARBGMO, but long before that he was inserting accusations of censorship against David Gorski based on Gorski's banning him from commenting for trolling. The skeptic community is generally skeptical about anti-GMO rhetoric, and this seems to have set Sage against organised skepticism pretty much from the outset. All this would be fine if Sage were capable of understanding the difference between his opinion and objective fact. He consistently demonstrates that he is not. Sage is intelligent and articulate, but he lacks the ability to accept that any conclusion differing from his own might be grounded in truth. The diffs above clearly show this. The biggest problem is that any topic ban would have to include all areas subject to skeptical activism, and I don't honestly think he edits anything much else. Guy (Help!) 22:59, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by TryptofishI don't have anything particularly global to add, although I agree with Bishonen's concern that there is a genuine time-sink going on. Some of this may be wits-end exasperation on the part of good-faith editors, but some of it is also a clash between editors who just cannot stand one another. See also: User talk:SageRad#Talk:Misophonia. It's not as simple as white-hats and black-hats. Instead of editors getting sucked into tl;dr arguments where nobody persuades anyone else, have content RfCs been adequately explored as a way of moving past logjams? (Example RfC question: "Below are some sources that say that misphonia is a genuine disorder, and some sources that say that it is not. Taking the sources together, should this page present it as a genuine disorder?") I've been trying to think of a possible DS restriction on SageRad that might be practical to design. Perhaps a word limit for talk page comments about AltMed pages? --Tryptofish (talk) 18:57, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
Note: I IAR put back (collapsed) the version of Sage's statement that he had reverted, and I think that it is a better statement than his original one. @Sage: you are permitted to add to your original statement, so you can always add new stuff (well, there's a word limit that is not being followed at the moment) as long as you don't delete the old stuff; you can also strike through anything you wrote. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:43, 25 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by Kingofaces43I've been seeing problems with SageRad continue to brew on my watchlist after their GMO sanctions. Just in the context of their previous sanctions from GMOs, part of the reasoning why they were topic banned was the exact same behavior we're still seeing here. When people start to complain about how a topic is being antagonized by SageRad's continued soapboxing, they're often met with SageRad's "What, who me?" responses when told to knock it off just like we are seeing in their response to this AE. Basically, disruption in fringe and health topics followed by playing the victim when they're behavior on article pages is called out. Add in the obvious battleground behavior, and we're back to where we were with SageRad before the GMO ArbCom case. That's especially apparent with their "othering" (i.e., "bullies") of editors that try to curtail the disruption SageRad causes in topics where they engage in advocacy or soapboxing about their personal ideals. It's becoming apparent SageRad just won't listen even after their sanctions. Same behavior as GMOs, just different topics now. At the end of the day, I don't have strong convictions about specific action against SageRad since I don't have to deal with them in my topic areas anymore (mainspace at least), but it's apparent they just moved their behavior issues outside their topic ban. I do feel for editors that still end up putting up with this behavior pretty regularly though. Here area a few ideas for sanctions to impose on SageRad that should at least stop the disruption and maybe turn them around: 1. One-way interaction ban when dealing with Jytdog. I don't have super strong support for this as it's really just a band-aid, but the continued battleground behavior is obvious while Jytdog has been acting at least relatively reasonable (though obviously frustrated) in the face of this string of continued behavior. I'm usually open to less complicated two-way bans, but I think we can agree SageRad's behavior is the core issue here to work on first. 2. Expanding topic bans as JzG mentioned. Probably the most concrete topic ban would be a broadly construed ban on any topic related to health (including environmental contamination for clarity). A topic ban on any WP:FRINGE topic could be a secondary consideration, but that's harder to define for avoiding wikilawyering. Word limits might have been a consideration back when SageRad was newer to Wikipedia, but the issue here seems to be they just can't let go in these topics. 3. Long-term block. SageRad has used tons of rope already still showing behavior (regardless of what they actually say) that they are not WP:HERE and are instead using Wikipedia more for soapboxing and hyperbole. Maybe that can change if they are handed a topic ban that gets them out of this activism mindset and into topics where they can act like a normal editor. I think we have to acknowledge though that if this all continues, the WP:ROPE is going leading to this last option. Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:06, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by SkyringAfter a tangential mention in discussion below, a tangential comment. SageRad has his own strong views, is well-informed, intelligent, and productive. There's a place for him here. But when he encounters opposition, rather than discuss the points of opposition in the context on improving the article(s), he takes it personal and tries to convert other editors to his views, which he considers to be the rational factual objective plain truth, and everybody else is a deluded fool or a tool of big business or something, and ultimately Wikipedia is fatally flawed because of this evil and that evil. Well, it's not. It works, it's a valuable reference, it's an internet marvel. SageRad should get offa his soapbox, work with those who have contrary opinions, and for the love of ghod, stop filling pages with long rambling rants! SageRad, we love you, we want you, it's just your behaviour needs a bit of a tweak. Okay? --Pete (talk) 06:58, 25 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by AlexbrnAs an editor who has had a role in the current Chemophobia article I was surprised to see, on 20 October, postings by SageRad on both the article's Talk page and at WP:FT/N report a "POV issue" because "This article presents 'chemophobia' as if it's a psychological phenomenon ..." On re-reading the article I saw (as did a number of other editors) that this is simply not the case: the article says precisely the opposite. This has been pointed out but since then no retraction, explanation or further comment has been made. On top of SageRad's editing history this looks far from being constructive activity. What is going on? Because of SageRad's problematic stance towards skepticism I don't think a TBAN on health content is quite right - a TBAN needs to cover (probably in addition) any topic covered by the WP:FRINGE guidance - broadly construed - though I fear this will not succeed because SageRad seems to have a novel view of what is, and is not, fringe that is out-of-sync with the Project. Alexbrn (talk) 09:58, 25 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by OID@Wordsmith, discretionary sanctions are authorised for a number of areas SageRad has been problematic in. So realistically you could apply any sanction you wanted (provided you felt it had merit). The real issue is that SageRad is not topic-bound in his disruption. He has an anti-skeptic agenda which manifests in disruptive editing wherever skepticism is evident. He is not pro-fringe as it was, just anti-evidence-based science. His editing MO is to show up at an article, declare bias, argue with people until he finally gets they dont agree with him, then rants about how everything is unfair. The problem is fringe and skepticism cover a huge range of topics. From pseudoscience, lifestyle, history, medical etc. Normally a targetted topic ban would suffice, but to limit SageRad's disruption would require a 0/1 revert restriction AND some sort of enforced character limit on discussions. And even *then* that would really only just keep disruption to a minimum, it wouldnt prevent anything as SageRad has a worldview that is incompatible with how Wikipedia populates article content. Alexbrn has laid out the most recent example. Jzg and a couple of others say SageRad is clearly intelligent etc, but I disagree. SageRad has repeatedly failed to grasp basic wikipedia concepts & policies, and as Alexbrn's example shows above, clearly has an issue in reading comprehension. There is a CIR issue here. This may be because he skim-reads and fails to grasp what is actually said - Jytdog has listed a number of examples where SageRad cherry-picks/looks at brief abstracts/summaries instead of reading and understanding what material actually says. But this disruption is not limited to Wikipedia, this is just his latest venue for pushing his POV/Agenda. He came here (and was subsequently sanctioned) after getting into conflict with Gorski. He previously linked to his rants/comments offsite - and even a basic internet search shows his attack-dog mentality when criticised (just in case anyone thinks to accuse me of outing, SageRad has previously linked to his offsite comments himself, then deleted them when it was pointed out they showed his bias). If you are unable to actually implement a workable sanction, this will need to go to ANI or Arbcom for a site ban discussion. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:51, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Plea by DrChrissyI am not here to comment on the merits or otherwise of this case, rather, I am here to make observations on Sage's behaviour and a plea for a moritorium. Sage's most recent behaviour on this noticeboard and at other places is very uncharacteristic for him. He is making unfocussed edits and flailing around in the multiple threads regarding his behaviour. He has even resorted to swearing which I don't think I have ever seen him do before. His baby is a new baby, I think only 6 weeks old or so, and I think is his first. To make this brief, I believe Sage may be experiencing some sort of melt-down. A moritorium would show compassion and allow Sage to either calm down and/or make decisions in a more rational way which Arbcom would be more able to deal with. DrChrissy (talk) 17:06, 25 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by Robert McClenonUnfortunately, I see two problems here. The first has to do with the subject editor, User:SageRad, who has been editing aggressively since May 2015 with a strong point of view on medical and agricultural topics. The second has to do with the history between the subject editor and the filing editor, User:Jytdog. Jytdog has long been editing aggressively in accordance with Wikipedia policy to try to ensure that medical and scientific articles follow Wikipedia medical reliable source guidelines. Jytdog is almost always right with regard to policy, and has made enemies in Wikipedia, and SageRad is one of them, and SageRad has been aggressively attacking Jytdog since he began editing Wikipedia in May 2015. (SageRad made a few scattered edits before then.) Jytdog is absolutely correct in writing: Actually, one more thing. The history between SageRad and me does go back to his very first edits here. Jytdog is completely correct in writing: I don't seek SageRad out; he keeps showing up on topics I edit and behaving this way. I first became familiar with SageRad when he showed up at the dispute resolution noticeboard hounding Jytdog and claiming mistakenly to be a DRN volunteer. SageRad has been going after Jytdog at least since June 2015. It is impossible to reason with SageRad to advise him that his behavior is disruptive. SageRad has, since May 2015, seen all efforts to advise him to modify his behavior as "McCarthyism" and "bullying". SageRad was topic-banned by the ArbCom from the topic area of genetically modified organisms and agricultural chemicals. (In case anyone argues that there was a kangaroo court proceeding, he wasn’t just banned by one kangaroo under discretionary sanctions. He was banned by the community-elected panel of kangaroos, except that we are not kangaroos because we are great apes.) He has recently been blocked twice, first for five days, then for one month. It isn’t clear why SageRad is so determined to change Wikipedia when he has apparently decided that Wikipedia is such an ugly corrupt place, but that is SageRad. If any editor other than Jytdog had been the one filing this request, I would suggest that SageRad be Site-Banned. As it is, Jytdog is the wrong editor to be filing this request, because Jytdog is right, but it looks too much like (almost justified) revenge. I suggest that SageRad be blocked for another month, and that Jytdog be asked to let other editors deal with SageRad after he is unblocked this time. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:22, 25 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by CapeoI was trying to avoid commenting here because I've butted heads enough with Sage that it just feels like piling on. That said, what the admins here are seeing as a meltdown is actually pretty par for the course. Outbursts claiming McCarthyism (such as here [43] against Guy or here [44] against... everyone I guess) are fairly normal with Sage, though the Stalinism claim is a new one to me. This has been an ongoing issue when it comes to such hyperbolic claims against other users or WP in general. Capeo (talk) 18:49, 25 October 2016 (UTC) Just a further note to admins, it seems unlikely SageRad will accept a voluntary editing restriction after saying they wouldn't accept an enforced one. I highly doubt it will work and will just serve to incite more drama. Perhaps I'm wrong, and SageRad will be fine with it, but I don't think you're going to get the response you're hoping for. Capeo (talk) 20:56, 25 October 2016 (UTC) Because SageRad keeps insisting that folks look at the Misophonia talk page I did. As well as the article, its history, its sources and the current research. The article was a mess earlier in the year with extraordinary levels of advocate editing. To the degree that editors were adding things to the article, openly in edit summaries no less, to favor particular researchers. The majority of editors on the talk page over the last couple years I looked at also say they have Misophonia. It was brought back to some semblance of balance by Jytdog and others back in February. It quickly spiraled back to being a mess in the interceding months. Looking at the current research "a proposed condition" is exactly the proper way to characterize Misophonia according to the preponderance of RS. There is no diagnostic criteria for it. It's not listed in any diagnostic text. It's near invariably associated with other conditions such as OCD (primarily), anxiety disorders, Autism spectrum or Tourette's Syndrome. SageRad's selective use of a sentence from the Cavanna abstract is not engaging with the actual sources or even the abstract in question, or even Cavanna's actual paper. Even in the abstract itself, it's admitted "At the present stage, competing paradigms see misophonia as a physiological state potentially inducible in any subject, an idiopathic condition (which can present with comorbid psychiatric disorders), or a symptomatic manifestation of an underlying psychiatric disorder." Cavanna and the one study he cites that agrees with him (that aren't his own) is the only person I can find that presently suggests it might be a primary condition. Even then he admits, in regard to the current definition of Misophonia, "This definition challenges the subsequently proposed views that misophonia is a discrete/idiopathic condition (which can present with comorbid psychiatric disorders)8 or a symptomatic manifestation of an underlying psychiatric disorder, at least in a proportion of cases.4 If confirmed by future systematic studies in large populations, the presence of high rates of comorbidity would go against the argument that misophonia should be labeled as a primary diagnosis. In fact, it would suggest that it is a symptom manifestation of other underlying or comorbid diagnoses and should more appropriately be labeled as a symptom, rather than as a stand-alone diagnosis. Either way, the addition of misophonia to nosographic classification systems of psychiatric disorders, such as the DSM, would require careful consideration." 8 is the study I mentioned. 4 is a short paper by Cavanna. Long story short: Jytdog's wording is correct and it appears SageRad is ignoring the caveats the source in question, which he provided, which isn't even close to the totality of sources in question. Capeo (talk) 01:48, 26 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by MjolnirPantsI'm not going to post my usual, fifteen paragraph explanation of every nuance of my own thoughts about this. I'm just going to say two things.
Statement by (Roxy the dog)I'm going to tender for the WP:ROPE supply contract with wikipedia. Must be racing up in value. -Roxy the dog™ bark 08:02, 26 October 2016 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning SageRad
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DevilWearsBrioni
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning DevilWearsBrioni
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Athenean (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 05:52, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- DevilWearsBrioni (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBMAC :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
DWB is a user with a history of WP:IDHT, WP:FORUMSHOPPING, WP:FILIBUSTER and WP:BATTLEGROUND that causes considerable disruption in Balkan related topics. A dispute at Expulsion of Cham Albanians that began months ago over DWB's unsubstantiated claims of WP:OR has been dragging on because DWB cannot concede that there is no case of WP:OR. The dispute has been ongoing since January 2016, and in August of this year DWB filed at WP:DRN [49]. The discussion at DRN dragged on for a long time due to filibustering by DWB, but the outcome was 100% against him. DWB then goes to the DRN talkpage, alleging that the dispute was not handled properly [50] even though there are no grounds to support this. This also drags on for a while due to filibustering and again the result is against DWB. The dispute then moved to formal mediation [51], where the mediator, User:Anthony Appleyard has asked him to stay on topic and stop filibustering [52] [53]. All the uninvolved users that have interacted with DWB in these disputes seem to think that DWB is behaving disruptively: User:Iazyges [54] [55] [56], User:Robert McClenon [57], User:Anthony Appleyard [58]. It is quite clear from these discussions that DWB is not going to accept "no" for an answer or WP:DROPTHESTICK. Added to that is a WP:BATTLEGROUND type behavior of filing frivolous reports at AN/I against users that disagree with him [59] [60] (both reports a huge of waste of the community's time and summarily dismissed). Looking through this user's contribs, I see very little content creation and positive editing, and a whole lot of wikidrama. The disruption caused by DWB far outweighs any positive contribs. Athenean (talk) 05:52, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
I would also like to draw attention to this attempt at off-wiki canvassing by DWB on Reddit [63]. DWB admitted was him [64] in this AN/I attack thread [65]. Athenean (talk) 04:11, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
@T. Canens: I have e-mailed MEDCOM to ask for permission to include the mediation deliberations as evidence. Further more, per WP:MC/P#PRIV, Protecting the integrity of mediation does not extend to protecting users who deliberately subvert the mediation process. Therefore, if a party engages in disruptive or bad-faith conduct during mediation, and that conduct later becomes the subject of Wikipedia disciplinary proceedings, the Mediation Committee will decline to protect the privileged nature of that party's communications.. I firmly believe that DWB is being deliberately obstructive at the mediation proceedings. Athenean (talk) 04:16, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning DevilWearsBrioni
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by DevilWearsBrioni
Please give me until Friday to respond. Thanks! DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 09:50, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by User:Iazyges
One thing that concerns me is his apparent knowledge of many WP guidelines but it seems that when it comes to WP's that disagree with or contradict him, he either has selectively avoided them or feigns ignorance. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 14:40, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- I would also add that for the DRN case, it was arguable that there was fault, but this is because the DRN isn't for a "right wrong" conclusion, unlike OR or RFC there are no "winners", it's for building consensus so that ideally all parties agree to something, because of this a OR case like this doesn't really belong in DRN. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 14:43, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by User:Robert McClenon
Unfortunately, I have to agree with the filing party that the only way to avoid disruption is to give User:DevilWearsBrioni an indefinite topic-ban from all Balkan-related editing. Informal mediation was attempted at the dispute resolution noticeboard. DWB persistently argues that any edits with which they disagree are necessarily original research, in spite of repeatedly having that argument considered and rejected. I then proposed formal mediation, which is being done by User:Anthony Appleyard, to which the parties agreed. However, DWB apparently isn't following the mediator's instructions to stay on topic (even though multiple copies have been defined) and is filibustering. I don't see any alternative to an indefinite topic-ban, because this editor is not contributing constructively to the encyclopedia in the Balkan area but is being disruptive. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:58, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by User:SilentResident
The problem with the user:DevilWearsBrioni is that although he has a decent knowledge of Wikipedia's rules, including ARBMAC, his primary focus has been certain sensitive ARBMAC-protected Balkan articles where his editorial conduct so far has been extremely disruptive since January 2016 already. His actions and stance have not contributed anything, but disruption. He has shown that he will do anything in his hands to impose his POV regarding historical events of the past, at the expense of Wikipedia's rules and other editors's POV concerns and warnings. -- SILENTRESIDENT 16:13, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- DevilWearsBrioni, goes to great extends to change these articles when they are not in line with his editorial bias and POV: constantly raised false WP:OR and WP:SYNTH cases, (where in NOR Board, DRN Board, ANI Board, Mediation Board, and even on Talk pages, absolutely no neutral party has ever supported his claims; even all the Mediators ruled against him). He is insisting on with his own perception of Wikipedia's rules, and broke repeatedly the 3RR [67], violated the ARBMAC rules [68], violated NPOV, abused the tagging system [69], acted against consensus, refused to be reasoned by other editors (incl. admins and mediators), refused to abide by the mediation resolutions, and even when everyone have given him multiple chances to remedy himself, he has refused and insisted with his own perception of Wikipedia's rules.
- His disruption is one of the longest I have seen, dating back to January of this year and it is never ending, even after 2 ARBMAC warnings. This leaves us no other options. I suggest that DevilWearsBrioni is indefinitely banned from any Balkan topic-related articles, including the Expulsion of Cham Albanians. -- SILENTRESIDENT 16:15, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- Note for T. Canens: Such a diff exists, just it seems the filler forgot to include it: [70]. The AE report has now been corrected. -- SILENTRESIDENT 10:01, 26 October 2016 (UTC) Moved to editor's section from results section. Seraphimblade Talk to me 16:22, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Mediation Committee
A request to waive the privilege of mediation has been made to the Mediation Committee and will be discussed on the Committee's mailing list. Unless and until such time as the Committee consents to waive the privilege, nothing said or done in the mediation may, by policy, be used as evidence in this proceeding. All previously-made statements made about what has happened there should be withdrawn and, whether or not withdrawn, must be disregarded by all administrators considering this case. For the Mediation Committee, TransporterMan (TALK) 07:50, 27 October 2016 (UTC) (Chairperson)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning DevilWearsBrioni
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Two procedural points:
- We need something more for "awareness", which has a very technical meaning in this context. See WP:AC/DS#aware.aware. If no such diff is available, we can't impose a discretionary sanction, but normal admin action is still available.
- Per WP:MC/P#PRIV, formal mediation proceedings cannot be used as evidence in subsequent dispute settlement absent prior written consent from MEDCOM. Unless such consent has been given, the portion of the complaint related to mediation will have to be stricken. T. Canens (talk) 07:54, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by ה-זפר
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- ה-זפר (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:25, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- Blocked for 1 year for breach of Arab-Israeli conflict topic ban (diff of block)
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- EdJohnston (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- Admin notified - diff
Statement by ה-זפר
Copied from user talk page at User_talk:ה-זפר#NOT_GOOD! by Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:25, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Please copy my appeal to the arbitration enforcement noticeboard or administrators' noticeboard. :I was blocked, with out a explanation, the reason stated was I did a violation of my ARBPIA articles ban, but I did follow my topic ban by not editing IL-PS topics. What I didn't know is that Tel Aviv, Gush Dan, and even Golan Heights are related to IL-PS conflict. I believe Golan is like IL-SY dispute, and I'm notified on topic ban of IL-PS topics. (and now it changed to Arab-IL topics?) :On Golan Heights (this edit in particular), I tried to make the article better, but Attar-Aram syria got involved with me in a revert conflict, after I took it to talk page, I know I was topic banned. On the talk page the user said "Your edit should keep the mentioning of the occupation in the infobox", and in my edit occupation was in the head and in the infobox was the current administration IL/SY (two thirds/one thirds). The other user was not notified on revert conflict. and there was a post on my talk page saying in "you have too much of an Israeli slant in your editing style", whereas my edit was indeed neutral. I was just revering to get the fact of Purple line on the head of Golan Heights, the other user finally agreed, but continued revert conflict on the infobox on current administration IL/SY (two thirds/one thirds) = to just, occupied by Israel. :After a recent report at AN, I got blocked? why? My topic ban was not explained to me and also I got blocked now? This is very unfair! David Aaron talk 04:44, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
Please note I originally copied the above message incorrectly and lost the links. I have now replaced it with the source and it now contains the links - nothing else is changed. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:59, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
Copied from user talk page, Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:26, 26 October 2016 (UTC) ...
- @Boing! said Zebedee:, Thank you, hope you and the other admins go through my words and links. There's a thing in my mind = Golan Heights is no where related to Palestine. Golan Heights is a dispute between Israel and Syria. So, due to a revert conflict with a user on the article Golan Heights I was reported (not notified about it though), fine. But then why was I notified about being banned on articles related to Israel-Palestine conflicts? That's what I'm saying, then why was I even topic banned on first place? The other user was not even warned for the reverts, why just me? Also later I'm blocked (which says under violation of Arab-Israeli conflict topic ban)? Are the administrators gone out of dictionary or it's meanings? Israel-Palestine conflict is something else and Arab-Israel conflict is other, whereas Golan Heights is not even near to the Palestinian territories, lol. If I'm notified on "Israel-Palestine conflict topic ban", the how can I be blocked on violation of "Arab-Israeli conflict topic ban"? It makes no sense to me! The topic ban and even the block makes no sense. I think some admins just want to sandwich me up! I had a headache for no sense. Haha. The revert conflicts could have been solved on the Golan heights talk page (as I already explained the revert conflict in the RED box above) HAHAHA...
- On Golan Heights (this edit in particular), I tried to make the article better, but Attar-Aram syria got involved with me in a revert conflict, after I took it to talk page, I know I was topic banned. On the talk page the user said "Your edit should keep the mentioning of the occupation in the infobox", and in my edit occupation was in the head and in the infobox was the current administration IL/SY (two thirds/one thirds), indeed neutral. I was just revering to get the fact of Purple line on the head of Golan Heights, the other user finally agreed, but continued revert conflict on the infobox on current administration IL/SY (two thirds/one thirds) = to include, occupied by Israel in infobox.
- HAHAHAHAHAHA..... David Aaron talk 10:01, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by EdJohnston (re David Aaron's appeal)
It is unfortunate that the editor's responses show he doesn't understand the ban. If we could be sure he would follow Wikipedia policy in the future the block could be lifted. The ban itself is negotiable, though it can't be lifted by me since the ban was imposed by The Blade of the Northern Lights. The ban is in place due to a concern that he can't neutrally. When a new editor jumps into the hot-button articles right away (such as Golan Heights) and seems unaware that he is acting like a bull in a china shop it causes concern. EdJohnston (talk) 19:36, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by JzG
I find it astonishing that anyone would not realise that the Golan Heights are related to the Israel-Palestine conflict. I consider that ה-זפר was given a lot of support and guidance in how to avoid falling foul of the restriction, and failed to use it to material advantage. The length of his current block seems harsh, as he comes across as Tigger-ish not a WP:RGW warrior, but the restriction appears valid and the violation of the restriction, leading to blocking, unarguable, especially given the thoughtful help offered on his talk page. Guy (Help!) 17:30, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by ANI participant Dennis Brown
I will stay on this side of the line since I participated in the ANI. David seemed to have a great difficulty understanding the previous topic ban, even though it was explained many times. If someone is capable of stringing together coherent ideas into prose, you would expect they are capable of understanding the concept of a topic ban once it is explained more than a few times. As I said there, AGF is not a suicide pact and I find it difficult to believe that David is so thick as to not have understood all along. In short, I don't believe the feigning of ignorance. So was a block and ban justified? Absolutely.
As for the duration, we admin use our best judgement to determine what a consensus of editors would choose, and sometimes we fall short and sometimes overshoot the mark. One year is on the high side, but is within acceptable limits. It is impossible to gauge with any accuracy how long is "long enough", after all. If a consensus here believes a different duration of block is more appropriate, I'm sure EdJohnston would accept that consensus without issue. I support his block, but I'm willing to support anything for at least one month, which I think is grossly insufficient. I strongly prefer at least 90 days for the block, but I'm more concerned with finding consensus and moving on. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 22:29, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by OID
Golan Heights are not Palestine. If administrators are taking/interpreting the Israel-Palestine case/remedy's to apply to Israel and all Arabs regardless of location under 'broadly construed' then there should probably be a request to amend the case to make this explicit. Thanks Roland for the correction. Only in death does duty end (talk) 07:50, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by RolandR
For the benefit of OID above, and in order to clarify any possible misunderstanding, it is worth repeating the outcome of the original arbitration case. By eleven votes to none, the arbitrators found that "The area of conflict in this case shall be considered to be the entire set of Arab-Israeli conflict-related articles, broadly interpreted", and by fourteen votes to none they ruled that "All Arab-Israeli conflict-related articles, broadly interpreted, are placed under discretionary sanctions". There is no possible ambiguity here. RolandR (talk) 10:35, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi
My view as stated at the ANI has not changed: [71] 'You don't understand how Gush Dan (fought over as part of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War), Golan Heights (occupied by Israel after the Six-Day War), and Tel Aviv (one of the most bombed cities in the region) don't fall under the Arab-Isreali conflict?'. Indeed, it was reinforced less than 12 hours later by a follow-up comment: [72] 'I did follow my topic ban by not editing Golan Heights... What I didn't know is that... Golan Heights are related to IL-PS conflict.' Now there is an unexplainable level of confusion in these statements, particularly the latter. Now, clearly WP:CIR is not an issue, as his article creation shows, so I think there must literally be a blind-spot to this specific idea (the TBan). The question then, is how long it will feasibly take him to comprehend the restriction- and that is the length of time the block should run for. How long is a piece of string? But User:The Blade of the Northern Lights' agreement to clarify its parameters will surely help reduce this from a year. Personally I think three months should suffice. If it doesn't, then what will?
- Striking proposal to reduce length of block. Due to the fact that, going by his second statement, ה-זפר seems to be getting mega-lulz out of this. Muffled Pocketed 07:19, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by ה-זפר
Statement by Debresser
If my opinion be know, it is that 1. The initial indefinite topic ban was overkill. Banning all interested editors, or even all POV editors from the IP topic is a bad "solution". The one-year block was also excessive, and clearly punitive. It is not in the interest of this project to ban or block an editor who has shown he can be productive in this area for such an overly long period. WP:AE should be more understanding and use sanctions as a last resort. 2. It is easy to make an edit that is not related to the IP-conflict on a page that is related. We should show some understanding, and not slam people on the wrist for a mistake. Debresser (talk) 19:10, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by ה-זפר
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I agree with the comment by EdJohnston: "It's a puzzling fact that he seems not to understand his ban". Drmies (talk) 17:47, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- Might I suggest that the sanctioning admin actually type out the exact wording for area of conflict from WP:ARBPIA or WP:AC/DS next time? It's not that much longer. T. Canens (talk) 19:43, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's on me. I stand by the ban, agree I could have been a bit clearer about it; I've gotten a little rusty with AE procedure. No specific comment on the length of the block, but the comments above about the implausibility of understanding the limits of the ban seem spot on. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:09, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- The block is fundamentally sound, and I don't think we need to tinker with the block length at this time. We can revisit after three months if a more convincing appeal is presented then. T. Canens (talk) 07:39, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
- To my mind, trying to claim that Golan Heights-related issues aren't covered under WP:ARBPIA is a case of trying to get clever and skirt around something that ought to be very clear. I don't think that trying to find technicalities to get around a sanction is something that should be encouraged. Lankiveil (speak to me) 23:41, 26 October 2016 (UTC).
My very best wishes
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning My very best wishes
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- DrFleischman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:39, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- My very best wishes (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBAPDS :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 06:54, 17 October 2016 The first time My very best wishes re-inserted highly contentious material to Donald Trump without consensus during the pendancy of an RfC. Instead of posting something on the talk page, My very best wishes described the perfectly reasonable RfC as "ridiculous" and accused the requestor, EvergreenFir, of using it to stonewall. The irony here is that the one stonewalling was My very best wishes, not EvergreenFir.
- 21:27, 19 October 2016 The second time My very best wishes re-inserted highly contentious material to Donald Trump without consensus during the pendancy of an RfC.
- 09:54, 26 October 2016 The third time My very best wishes re-inserted highly contentious material to Donald Trump without consensus during the pendancy of an RfC. In the edit summary they acknowledged the existence of the RfC. My very best wishes ignored repeated talk page comments that the content should be excluded during the pendancy of the RfC. A pretty clear violation of WP:TALKDONTREVERT.
- 12:19, 26 October 2016 Playing dumb and failing to acknowledge RfC, after AE warning.
- 12:40, 26 October 2016 Refusal to self-revert, and failure to acknowledge that their re-insertions violated our WP:NOCONSENSUS policy.
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
17:35, 20 October 2016 (one of many).
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
(My apologies if I've messed something up, as this is my first time lodging an AE complaint.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:39, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
My very best wishes, the arbitration warning states:
“ | Consensus required: All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion). If in doubt, don't make the edit. | ” |
This is what you did, three times. Your primary justification appears to be that you were following some sort of custom to preserve the material being discussed in an RfC. This custom does not "trump" (pardon the pun) active arbitration remedies, especially when you are re-inserting allegations of sexual misconduct in a BLP. I'll also note that WP:RFC states:
“ | Edits to content under RfC discussion may be particularly controversial. Avoid making edits that others may view as unhelpful. Editing after others have raised objections may be viewed as disruptive editing or edit warring. Be patient; make your improvements in accord with consensus after the RFC is resolved. | ” |
--Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:14, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning My very best wishes
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by My very best wishes
In the first diff of complaint I refer (edit summary) to this unhelpful RfC request closed by an administrator. I obviously did not mean user EvergreenFir in this edit summary. I meant other users.
An administrator who closed this request also opened another RfC that was a lot more helpful. Here is version of the page which existed at the moment of posting this RfC by admin. The content under discussion in the RfC was the last paragraph in the introduction. Strictly speaking, this paragraph should not be modified during standing RfC until it is closed. However, I do agree that the initial version of this paragraph was POVish, and it evolved to another, more neutral version, one that I have restored here (3rd diff in complaint).
I think this latest version is fine and should remain, possibly in this, even more neutral version. However, if the RfC will be properly closed with conclusion to remove, I am very much willing to agree with consensus. But the RfC is still open, and there is no consensus to remove this material from intro. I fully explained my edits here and here. Nevertheless, the filer decided to go ahead with this complaint. Why? If am wrong here, please explain, and I will try to improve. Note that I discussed this subject on article talk page.
As a note of order, the US politics is not an area of my major interest, and I did not receive a formal warning about discretionary sanctions in this area, although I know about these sanctions. My very best wishes (talk) 22:48, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
- A constructive suggestion. Could an uninvolved admin look at this RfC and close it please, one way or another. End of story. My very best wishes (talk) 01:18, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
- P.S. Note that DrFleischman just threatened to report yet another user on WP:AE [73] and ... violated 1RR rule on this page [74],[75] (note that both his edits are restoration of "content challenged by reversion" he complains about here). DrFleischman is well aware of the 1RR restriction on this page, but refused to comply [76]. Note that I made only three edits on this page during a week. My very best wishes (talk) 10:46, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Tataral
If I'm not mistaken, User:DrFleischman has made at least 3 reverts during the last 24 hours in violation of 1RR. It is somewhat amusing that this user, DrFleischman, who is engaging in revert warring and battleground behaviour to such an extent, threatens to file frivolous reports over the same issue against one editor after another (who unlike him haven't edit warred and who have made only one edit during a whole week reinstating the stable and consensus-supported version) when he doesn't get it his way. When someone claims everyone else is wrong, it's usually the other way round.
When reading the talk page in its entirety, after 2 weeks of discussion, it is clear based on policy-based arguments that there is consensus to include a brief mention of the controversy, in the form of the wording that has been stable for quite some time now. Numerous editors have presented sound policy-based arguments (summed up nicely by JasperTECH under the heading "My comment copied from below") in favour of its inclusion, at least in the form of a brief mention (as is currently the case), but on the other hand there is a case to be made that consensus is against including a whole paragraph on it, as was originally the case. The current two-sentence wording is much shorter than the original paragraph, and also a lot more neutral, and is really a compromise and the result of painstaking work by many editors to find an acceptable, neutral and WP:DUE wording that complies with the BLP policy to the maximum extent possible. If User:DrFleischman disagrees with it, he should seek consensus on the talk page instead of revert-warring or trying to bully other editors. --Tataral (talk) 11:49, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning My very best wishes
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
LouisAragon
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Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning LouisAragon
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- EtienneDolet (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 04:14, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- LouisAragon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:AA2
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- Removal of Armenian content, POV pushing, and edit-warring
- 30 December 2015 says an Armenian name is of Persian origin with no source and removes Armenian language name (I provided these old diffs to show a long pattern lasting 1 year now)
- 24 February 2016 removes Armenian language name claiming it wasn't part of ancient Armenia, even though the article says it was historically inhabited by Armenians
- 22 August 2016 removes Armenian language and background from dynasty that ruled Armenia, along with source for it
- 22 August 2016 removes relevant Armenian category for no given reason
- 2 September 2016 removes links to Armenians article with no talk or consensus
- 5 September 2016 places the Persian name first. Pretty nasty edit-summary too.
- 8 September 2016 removes Armenian name and replaces it with Persian, even though it's located in Armenia.
- 10 September 2016 removes all those named Yervand (Armenian version of Orontes) at the Yervand article
- 11 September 2016 removes Armenian language name and any mention of Armenia from lead
- 11 September 2016 removes an academic source saying dynasty origins are unknown and could be Armenian and/or Iranian, then nitpicks a source that says only Iranian, then deleting the rest
- 11 September 2016 removes Armenian language and Armenian name
- 11 September 2016 Same as above.
- 11 September 2016 Same as above.
- 11 September 2016 Same as above.
- 11 September 2016 Same as above.
- 11 September 2016 Same as above.
- 8 October 2016 edit-warring over moving the Armenian name to the end. Edit-wars to maintain his edit and doesn't go to the TP [77][78]
- 12 October 2016 removes Armenian language at Urartu article. Replaces it with Persian.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- Indefinitely blocked twice previously, despite getting unblocked per WP:ROPE the first time
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
LouisAragon has been pushing a Persian nationalist POV for quite some time now. When editing Armenian articles, LouisAragon often removes the Armenian foreign language alternate name and replaces it with Persian. When he simply can't do that, he places Armenian as the last language mentioned. When it comes to Iran's neighborhood, it is Iran that comes first, even if there's not much relevance to Iranian culture today. Take for example the edits at Urartu. LouisAragon removes the Armenian name, replaces it with Persian, even though there's absolutely no indication in the article about Urartu's significance to modern day Iranian culture and identity. Yet, on the other hand, there's entire sections devoted to Urartu's notable role in the development of Armenian culture, language, kingdoms, and its identity at large. Yet, it's Armenian that gets removed. This is a repeated pattern in almost every Armenian article he touches. I must also add that it's not limited to Armenia. Azerbaijani and Kurdish (as far as I can see) articles suffer a similar fate. Stuff like this is deeply concerning (i.e. removing the Kurdish alternate name of a province named Kurdistan). I mean, in other words, if we are leave LouisAragon to his own devices, I'm afraid articles pertaining to countries that neighbor Iran or have a shared history with Iranians would be forced to conform to the will of this user's apparent pro-Iranian POV.
I must add that this pattern is an old one. His edits on AA2 articles prior to his warning show a clear resemblance to his edits above, such as the removal of any mention of Armenians as European ([79][80][81][82][83][84][85][86]) and attempting to turn Armenian kings into Iranian ([87][88][89][90][91][92]), the latter being reminiscent of his recent edits on Armenian king articles. LouisAragon had also made several tongue in cheek personal insults such as Incompetent pov pushers, fanboy, POV pusher, incompetent people, and ignorant. It's an all too familiar pattern that shouldn't be ignored anymore. I think strictures are necessary.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning LouisAragon
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Statement by LouisAragon
Statement by (username)
Result concerning LouisAragon
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.