Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard: Difference between revisions

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Welcome – report issues regarding biographies of living persons here.

This noticeboard is for discussing the application of the biographies of living people (BLP) policy to article content. Please seek to resolve issues on the article talk page first, and only post here if that discussion requires additional input.

Do not copy and paste defamatory material here; instead, link to a diff showing the problem.

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Additional notes:

Edits by the subject of an article may be welcome in some cases.
For general content disputes regarding biographical articles, try Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies instead.
Editors are encouraged to assist editors regarding the reports below. Administrators may impose contentious topic restrictions to enforce policies.

Rockin' Rebel: Dead or alive?

Bit of a tussle between sources and doubt at Talk:Rockin' Rebel. Also a subplot about professional wrestling integrity versus police authority in America, and a marital murder mystery complicating what (I assume) would've otherwise been a straighforward reflection of the exact same reporters' reports, rather than a locked-down article. Strange case with potential for strange precedent, but a rather obscure celebrity, so I invite the board to ponder it. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:21, June 3, 2018 (UTC)

Fiona Bruce

Can anyone please review and comment at Talk:Fiona_Bruce#Unilever? It isn't really a legal issue but people are editing the article and ignoring its talk page. - Sitush (talk)

Caroline Danjuma

I am bringing this here on the advice of Voceditenore, and mainly incase I am off-wiki for some days or the subject does something new that I might not have access to. There are three issues here, 1. Caroline Danjuma wants to change her date of birth without providing a reliable source or sending a confidential birth certificate to Wikipedia that was issued in the 80s or 90s. 2. She also wants to change her Wikipedia name to something that violates WP:COMMONNAME. 3. Failure to achive (1) and (2) has led her to get disgruntled and lay false accusations on me. I thought she had understood how Wikipedia works after a discussion with her representative on the talkpage until when I saw this publication, where she libelously laid accusations on me. Going forward, I want to make the following assertions and propositions:

I have never at any time communicated with Caroline Danjuma, or anyone that claims to be her representative, either through mail or in person outside my WP talkpage or the article tp. Infact I haven't spoken to anyone at all concerning the article outside en-Wikipedia.
From the discussion on her tp, and the manner so many experienced editors became involved in the discussion, it suggest to me that she has been in conversation with some Wikipedia representatives, I don't know how this works, but I want to suggest she is made to understand that paid editing is not allowed here, and encouraged to forward any evidence that will assisst in fishing out the Wikipedian that requested for it, although my guts tells me she made that up. Finally, those Wikipedia representatives that responded to the request of her supposed rep privately should also make her understand that Wikipedia works with reliable sources, and does not make up information. She is fighting the wrong battle, instead of calling out Pulse, Eagle and other respected news platforms that published correct info on her, she is calling out WP.
Finally, I think she has deleted her IG account so you would not have access to the original post. HandsomeBoy (talk) 19:13, 27 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Took me a while, but finally found her official IG account, although she changed her username, deleted the post about paid editing, then added a disclaimer to her bio that reads "...I DO NOT own a Wikipedia Page" (per WP:OWN people need to understand that nobody owns a Wikipedia page). If you're as curious as me her handle is @st_lilybeth. I don't think disclosing her IG handle is a violation of WP:OUTING, since she's a public figure and the account isn't private. If I'm wrong please delete this edit. HandsomeBoy (talk) 17:15, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Smita Bellur

I stumbled across this article while patrolling recent changes and am very surprised this hasn't been fixed. This BLP article is a complete advertisement for the singer and will need a fine tooth comb through to remove promotional content like this while still keeping the article intact. Will probably need the help of someone who is more familiar with this BLP or Indian music and culture to help add non-promotional content and references. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 06:06, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Page still needs some work and additional reliable sources but most of the promotional language has been removed. Meatsgains^(talk) 02:09, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Julieta Venegas

Continuing a discussion at Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities#People_born_in_countries_foreign_to_their_heritage (who sent me here)

Venegas' parents are Mexican, she is probably the most famous living person from Tijuana. But she was born in California, so her article has said at various times "Mexican", "Mexican American", "American-born Mexican" and probably others.

They all seem accurate. I'm not that bothered which one is used, unless there is a definitive rule for this situation. I'm trying to avoid further edits.

Fuddle (talk) 19:55, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Jeffrey Eggers

There is a flag on the top of Jeffrey Eggers page citing This biography of a living person needs additional citations for verification. The page looks fine to me, how do I remove this warning or what needs to be added to improve it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by PennyLS61917 (talk • contribs) 20:29, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have to say, after reading some of the interviews with this guy, I really like him. Most of his ideas on "our culture of fear" are right in line with my thoughts.

That said, out of nine sources, six are corporate websites (two of which repeat, leaving four, of which three he's affiliated with). The Whitehouse source is a good one, and so is the source from Harvard, but all of these are primary sources. The one source that is a legitimate newspaper and a secondary source is not really about him, but only mentions him as the keynote speaker of the event (just two sentences at the end), and doesn't even say what our article attributes it as saying. So, no, the sourcing definitely needs improvement. What we need are secondary sources, such as books, book reviews (if he's authored any), magazines, legitimate news outlets, reliable websites, etc... I hope that helps. Zaereth (talk) 00:09, 6 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sex abuse scandal at OSU on Jim Jordan's page

Is it OK to add the following text to Jim Jordan's page[1]?:

Jordan was an assistant wrestling coach with the Ohio State University's wrestling program from 1986 to 1994. In July 2018, former wrestlers that Jordan coached at the Ohio State University accused Jordan of failing to stop a team doctor from sexually assaulting them and other students. The former wrestlers said that it would have been impossible for Jordan to be unaware and one wrestler said that he told Jordan about the sexual assaults at the time. Jordan rejected the accusations that he had knowledge of the alleged sexual assaults.

The text is sourced to NBC News[2] and USA Today[3], but there are a lot more RS available. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 21:43, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, BLPCRIME doesn't really apply since he is a public figure. (However, combined with the timing of this it smells a lot like political S-slinging.) Two things strike me as off balance or incomplete. The first is "former wrestlers". This should be quantified. Is it all of his former wrestlers, or a selected few? (From the sources I count three). The second is that its impossible to say with 100% certainty what someone else "knows", because that requires not only being able to prove what the person saw or heard but also how they perceived and comprehended it. In my opinion, what would be far better is to show us the facts that lead to these allegations rather than relying on a witness' theory of mind. Zaereth (talk) 00:42, 6 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There were reports of a fourth wrestler today[4]. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 00:56, 6 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, but as Hullaballoo, says below, I think the wording should be a little more precise (yet concise). Zaereth (talk) 01:00, 6 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I don't mind changing the wording. It's more about whether the topic can be broached at all. Also, a fifth OSU wrestler, Mark Coleman (a huge UFC name), has stated that Jordan knew.[5] Snooganssnoogans (talk) 02:50, 6 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the phrasing needs to be more precise, possibly even quoting key language from the sources. However, this is an extremely high profile matter concerning a high-ranking political figure, and should not be excessively downplayed. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. (talk) 00:49, 6 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd argue just a "wait and see", for about a week, per NOT#NEWS. It is high profile, if it accusations affect his position or the like, they definitely should stay, but at the moment, it is unproven accusations that hasn't had yet any immediate impact on his career. We should wait and see a few days to see how it plays out and to know how much significance to give to it. --Masem (t) 21:55, 6 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Leaning towards include: The categorical denials are now: "Locker Room Conversations Different From Reported Abuse", per Fox interview he gave. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:10, 8 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Tracy Spiridakos‎

I'd like more eyes from editors who are knowledgeable about BLPs on this article, please. GrecoArm is edit-warring, and ignoring Talk page discussion on the topic, to keep in a DOB figure that is at best a WP:SYNTH, and is almost certainly contrary to WP:BLPPRIVACY to boot, as Spiridakos‎ has very carefully avoided any coverage of her age in WP:RS's and presumably does not want this kind of info publicly covered (as per BLPPRIVACY). Thanks. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:50, 6 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ping Ad Orientem to this, as they've looked at this article before, and I respect their opinion... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 00:03, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi GrecoArm. You need a WP:RS source for this claim. Twitter is not RS. Even assuming that the person behind the tweet is who they claim to be (likely but not an absolute given) famous people have been known to make false statements on twitter before. (Do I need to mention any examples?). Please don't re-add a DOB w/o citing a reliable secondary source. Thanks. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:02, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Summer Rae

Can I get some more eyes on this article? I've just blocked Ringerfan23 and Jdweisner84 for an insane edit-war on this article over the infobox photo. The photo that Jdwesiner84 wants has been apparently requested by the article subject here, but doesn't have an appropriate free license so is (understandably) up for deletion. I personally think the new image is better than the old one which looks rather "unfortunate", so is it simply a matter of getting the right approval for OTRS? Either way, these two shouldn't be reverting that much, it's not a clear open and shut case of disruption in my view. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 10:36, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It would need to be freely released via OTRS. History on WP indicates that is unlikely to happen as the subjects do not always own the copyright to photos of themselves, and when they do, are not always amenable to releasing it free and clear. Otherwise as a living person any freely available photo takes precedence. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:40, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You also probably need to unblock Ringerfan23. WP:3RRNO - removal of clear copyright violations is exempt from 3rr and not edit-warring by definition. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:47, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure it meets the definition of "clear", given only WP:COMPETENCE appears to be stopping the new image from having an appropriate license and people are trying (and failing) to do the right thing. I will unblock Ringerfan23 if he promises not to revert again now other eyes are looking at this (I simply indiscriminately blocked everybody first to stop the disruption then came here). Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 11:02, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Its clear to anyone who works with NFCC. Photo lacks valid release. Clearly scraped from instagram. Even should the subject wish it as her photo, as it has an indentifiable photographer (who isnt her) she couldnt give permission anyway. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:06, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed it is, but when the subject of a BLP dispatches a lynch mob via their twitter feed, it's difficult to keep control of the situation. Copyright policies and NFCC are one of the most misunderstood concepts for non-regulars. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 11:30, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Val Shawcross

The biographical site about me - Val Shawcross is now out of date. I retired from the role of Deputy Mayor for Transport at age 60 in June 2018. I have however been appointed as a member (Non Executive) of Transport for London Board and curently hold this position.

heidi Alexander took over the role of Deputy mMyor for Transport in London in June 2018.

The article also refer to me inaccurately as being a member of the Assembly Budget committee - I relinquished this when I stood down from the London Assembly in May 2016.

As I retired I no longer maintain a Website or Facebook page. I'd be grateful if these points could be corrected.

I am still contactable via Linked In and Twitter

Thanks

Val Shawcross. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.198.77.229 (talk) 09:55, 8 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This all looks correct and easy to change. I'll make a start. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 10:48, 8 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

All done, except that I have used 21 May 2018 as the retirement date for consistency with the Heidi Alexander page. This probably needs checking. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 11:02, 8 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Boots_Riley

Talk:Boots_Riley includes a lengthy op-ed accusing Riley of instigating violence, written as if the author was talking directly to Riley. It serves no purpose and isn't in reference to anything in the article. Weirdly, it's been left there for six years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.15.59.197 (talk) 07:36, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the personal commentary from the talkk page. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. Abecedare (talk) 00:50, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Dominic Raab

The Dominic Raab page is being repeatedly vandalised and should be protected until further notice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nt1192 (talk • contribs) 09:52, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Nt1192: Already semi-protected by User:Alexf. For future reference, reporting protection requests at WP:RFPP may get a quicker response. Thanks for keeping an eye on the page. Abecedare (talk) 00:58, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Craig Becker, General Counsel, AFL-CIO

This concerns the photograph of Craig Becker that popped up on a sidebar with attribution to Wikipedia when I did a search on his name. The photo is not Craig Becker, as you will see if you go to the AFL-CIO website. The photo is not included in the actual Wikipedia article about Craig Becker. It needs to be deleted or replaced on the sidebar thumbnail sketch of him.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.27.50.128 (talk • contribs) 21:36, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi IP user. As you mentioned, the Wikipedia article does not currently include a photo of Becker on the wikipedia page, Craig Becker. You may be referring to the image that appears on the side bar of Google when searched for him there. If that's the case, that is something that would need to be addressed with Google, as Wikipedia has no control over images that aren't sourced here. --HunterM267 ^talk 21:40, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, the photo that shows up when I google Craig Becker is in fact Craig Becker. And I know what Craig Becker looks like. - Nunh-huh 00:27, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The funny thing about Google is that is doesn't always give the same results for everybody, but instead tries to refine its results based upon your individual search history. Go to Google images and you can see lots and lots of "Craig Becker"s (some of them apparently even women) and the correct or most popular photo doesn't always show up first. (Try as it may, Google is not a mind reader and couldn't possibly tell if you're looking for Becker the attorney or the guy on facebook you might have went to elementary school with. In my opinion, a lot of these "helpful" features only end up hampering the search for what I'm really looking for.) The thing is, if Wikipedia doesn't have an image, Google simply puts up whatever image it "thinks" is best, but that is completely out of our control. Zaereth (talk) 00:49, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's why I included "FWIW". There's no way to know what photo the original questioner sees on google; I'm just saying it's not always wrong.- Nunh-huh 01:51, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Kidada Jones Marriage and family

I have edited this particular section to include facts that were documented in a televised special. However, I notice my source is removed and someone appears to be in an editing war with me on the subject of Kidada being called Tupac's fiancee. I included a clip from BET Networks Death Row Chronicles that aired February 23, 2018. In the clip, Kidada refers to Tupac Shakur as her boyfriend. The other sources used in the marriage and family section are not her words. I would like this dispute resolved promptly.

Source: Kurupt, Kevin Powell Relive Hearing Tupac Might Die | Death Row Chronicles [[ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2qADD7VpXk]]--Facts Only (talk) 16:01, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Kidada is a primary source. We prefer secondary sources, and almost every single one over the years (including where talking directly to Kidada) states she was engaged to Tupac at the time of his death. So 'fiance' is correct. That she in a TV documentary refers to him as her boyfriend does not invalidate that. You dont magically start calling them your fiance all the time once you get engaged. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:15, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Request For Improvement: Harmon Wilfred

moved from the talk page on behalf of @FreedomtoAssociate:, and page link fixed. power~enwiki (π, ν) 21:23, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The 2011 Christchurch earthquake had a devastating impact on Harmon and Carolyn Wilfred's finances. ^[1]

Harmon Wilfred (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) is the First Appellant in this Judgement of the Appeals Court of New Zealand (CA184/2013 [2013] NZCA 457) is Harmon Wilfred as he attempted to regain control of the surviving assets of LaFamia after the Christchurch Earthquake. The appeal was dismissed by judgement of the court on 4 October 2013. The court reported several facts. [Source redacted]

The effect of the the three earthquakes in and around Christchurch has been omitted as content in the Harmon Wilfred article, especially his financial difficulties. An earthquake in nearby Canterbury (4 Sept. 2010) causes a public announcement by Harmon's recently acquired (financially distressed) Floyds Creative Arts, "It’s business as usual... committed to ensuring the creative space and its services will continue... providing arts activities to people with limited access opportunities for more than 35 years." The next earthquake on 22 Feb. 2011 is catastrophic to the population and infrastructure of Christchurch.^[2] The city dropped from second to third most populace of New Zealand. ^[3] LaFamia's building on Fitzgerald collapses. ^[4] This is a major financial event to a struggling charity beset with labor troubles. The timing could not have been worse for Harmon and Carolyn. A third earthquake causes more damage to the already paralyzed city and infrastructure.

The Appellate Court facts demonstrate that the financial impact was felt soon after the earthquakes. Also, sympathy for the plight of the plaintiff's was mentioned when it ruled against them.

The Biography is missing an important fact about the financial problems that caused the bankruptcy. He took over a failing, long-respected charity to fully restore it to prominence and provide a needed service for the people of Christchurch, New Zealand. The devastating earthquakes effectively ended any possibility of the Harmon's success when the building on Fitzgerald collapsed. I am asking for a wiki-editor to resolve this critical omission of fact!

Also, what is an acceptable source for personal information such as date of birth and military service. FreedomtoAssociate (talk) 21:19, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

I removed the court documents because those are a clear violation of BLP. Please see WP:BLPPRIMARY. The subject's own website is not really a reliable source for such information where there may or may not be a personal stake or bias in the situation. (Besides, it doesn't say anything about earthquakes.) Wikipedia is also not a reliable source, and we most certainly cannot use stock images of the quake for anything. We most certainly know and believe the quakes occurred, so that in itself is easily verified. We need sources that specifically say the information you're telling us. What we need are secondary sources, like news articles, magazines, books, etc... We need far less of the primary sources, and most certainly not court or other official government documents which may contain personal and private information.

I looked through the article and see a lot of newspaper coverage, but absolutely nothing from those papers about financial losses due to the earthquakes. (Perhaps I didn't look closely enough, for I didn't go through all of them. But from reading the news it appears most of the monetary losses were due to failed business ventures. I see nothing about the cause of those failures. Although it is likely the quakes were a contributing factor (as they were to everyone else in the area) we can't speculate nor synthesize that information from a bunch of "connect-the-dot" sources; we need ones that specifically say it. So far, I haven't seen any that go into detail other than they failed.) Plus there is a lot of information from those sources which seems to have been conveniently omitted. For example, our article says David Carter praised him and wrote letters championing his citizenship, but conveniently omits the part where the subject was a large campaign donor of Carter's. I think it may be worth looking a little more closely into this article to see if it is balanced with the sources, if anyone has the time to dig deeper into it. Zaereth (talk) 22:42, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ochs-Sulzberger_family

Bit of an odd one this. Ochs-Sulzberger_family is basically a family tree. Some notable people, many not. Quite a lot of dead people, but also it includes the names of many living people. I'm about to go through and remove anyone not notable who is still living or presumed to be living who doesnt have an article, or is directly the spouse of someone with an article. WP:BLPNAME appears to apply here. Any further thoughts welcome. Only in death does duty end (talk) 23:11, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Eugene Gu

Would folks please check the discussion here - has to do with arrest record for case that appears to have been expunged.. Really not sure what we should do with this. Would folks please comment there? Thx Jytdog (talk) 03:29, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

added a proposal Talk:Eugene_Gu#Proposal_re_marriage...Jytdog (talk) 14:42, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Students of Sandra Seacat

Is this category notable? It's been added to a number of actors, but is Sandra Seacat influential enough to have a category devoted exclusively to her students? --Ebyabe (talk) 05:38, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have nominated the category for deletion with the rationale "Not a defining characteristic per WP:CATDEF of any of the actors added to the category (all by the same editor who created it); seemingly intended merely to promote Sandra Seacat." Please comment at the CfD discussion if so inclined. General Ization ^Talk 15:47, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Mohammad bin Salman

I have posted here on a number of sections of this article which could do with some attention. If anyone has some time to look at some of them that would be a great help. Thank you. Tarafa15 (talk) 13:59, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Alyssa Carson

Another potential child prodigy whose article is bathed in tags contesting the accuracy of the claims made. Now at AFD. Mangoe (talk) 17:09, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Emily Care Boss

This is my bio page. Some relevant items which could be added follow:

Career: Add to - "Her company Black & Green Games is best known its romance-themed indie games, Breaking the Ice, Shooting the Moon, and Under My Skin." ", which she collected into one volume as the Romance Trilogy in 2016. The Romance Trilogy was nominated for the Diana Jones Award for Excellence in Gaming in 2017." citation: http://www.dianajonesaward.org/the-2017-award/

Change - "She was on the programming team for the Living Games Conference in 2014 and helped with the Living Games in 2016 as well." to "She was on the programming team for the Living Games Conference in 2014, helped with 2016 and chaired the conference in 2018."

Personal Life: Correction - "Boss resides in Plainfield, Massachusetts.." change to "Boss resides in Greenfield, Massachusetts..."

Roleplaying Bibliography: Correction - "Under my Skin: Who do you love?" should appear as "Under my Skin"

Add - Romance Trilogy, compendium of Breaking the Ice, Shooting the Moon and Under my Skin with hacks and mods, 2016. https://books.google.com/books/about/Romance_Trilogy.html?id=4Po8vgAACAAJ https://www.evilhat.com/home/inside-the-hat-emily-care-boss/ https://books.google.com/books?id=ix9WDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT166&lpg=PT166&dq=romance+trilogy+emily+care+boss+2016&source=bl&ots=8uxdPYv8BU&sig=fDO3Zb7YjfYgiUB5G0ptpIdZFl4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjn3er-3JfcAhWDc98KHY41Dgc4ChDoAQhUMAs#v=onepage&q=romance%20trilogy%20emily%20care%20boss%202016&f=false http://file770.com/2017-diana-jones-award-shortlist/

Publications: Additional work - "Beyond the Game Master: The Rise of Peer Empowered Tabletop Roleplay." Emily Care Boss, Ivan Vaghi and Jason Morningstar. States of Play: Nordic Larp Around the World. Juhana Pettersson (editor), Solmukohta, 2012. pp. 163-169. http://www.nordicrpg.fi/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/states_of_play_pdf_version.pdf

Honours and Awards: ENnie Gold Best Family Game 2017 (Bubblegumshoe)

Matthijs Otterloo

Not a public figure. Don't have enough press and also not a notable — Preceding unsigned comment added by Badassentrepreneur (talk • contribs) 19:40, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Toby Young

There have been two reverts over changing the initial text to the second one. This sentence is a key part of the lead text.

... he resigned over a week later after many of his offensive Twitter comments were uncovered.
... he resigned over a week later after past Twitter comments were publicised which some took offence to.

I am raising at this noticeboard because the Toby Young article has been controversial, not least of which was that it featured in the press as being manipulated by Young themselves. In my view the first text is preferable as using a "sky is blue" rationale, the tweets are seen to be offensive by the vast majority of people that read them. The tweets are described as offensive in a quote from Sir Michael Barber in the newspaper source, and by the Guardian journalist. I would think that virtually anyone that reads the reprinted comments such as "Actually mate, I had my dick up her arse", or similar (ref businessinsider), would agree. Reducing the description to "some took offence", appears to be introducing an avoidable bias of being unnecessarily mild in describing their offensive nature.

The alternative may be to include more direct quotes of the most extreme misogynist or homophobic tweets, or to include one in the lead of the article itself, so that readers are in no doubt as to whether they are blatantly offensive or not.

@Cleisthenes2: as involved party.

Thanks --Fæ (talk) 19:58, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Fæ. That Young has edited the article about him in the past isn't relevant. I'm the one who has been questioning the neutrality of the sentence in question, and I don't know him.

"The sky is blue" is clearly a less controversial statement than "those Toby Young tweets were misogynistic."

"The tweets are seen to be offensive by the vast majority of people that read them." Do you have any evidence that would establish this, such as a (non-self-selected) survey of viewers of those tweets?

In any case, I'm not sure whether a majority of people would find the tweets offensive is even relevant here. That's because it would be quite easy to record the basic facts (that Young was fired after some past tweets were uncovered) without taking any position on whether they were offensive or not.

I am going to have another go at re-writing the sentence in a way that doesn't violate our duty to political neutrality. You're welcome to let me know how you think I've done.

Cleisthenes2

[1] ttp://ngoupdater.org.nz/community-organisations/la-famia-creative-arts/

[2] ttps://www.dreamstime.com/stock-images-christchurch-earthquake-fitzgerald-avenue-bridge-image18886404

[3] 2011 Christchurch earthquake#Population loss

[4] ttp://ngoupdater.org.nz/community-organisations/la-famia-creative-arts/

[1]

[2]

[3]

[4]

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