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::::Like where the feature is only enabled on a certain category that could be configured. For instance something like [[:Category:Pages that use automated archival]]. --[[User:Kevin Brown|Kevin Brown]] ([[User talk:Kevin Brown|talk]]) 00:29, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
::::Like where the feature is only enabled on a certain category that could be configured. For instance something like [[:Category:Pages that use automated archival]]. --[[User:Kevin Brown|Kevin Brown]] ([[User talk:Kevin Brown|talk]]) 00:29, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
:::::That sounds good to me, if there is consensus to do this. What about drafting an [[WP:RFC|RfC]]? However I think we should try to reach consensus here first. So maybe you should outline here, what exactly you have in mind, probably as a subsesction of this section? [[User:Toshio Yamaguchi|Toshio Yamaguchi]] ([[User talk:Toshio Yamaguchi|talk]]) 00:45, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
:::::That sounds good to me, if there is consensus to do this. What about drafting an [[WP:RFC|RfC]]? However I think we should try to reach consensus here first. So maybe you should outline here, what exactly you have in mind, probably as a subsesction of this section? [[User:Toshio Yamaguchi|Toshio Yamaguchi]] ([[User talk:Toshio Yamaguchi|talk]]) 00:45, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
::::::What I was thinking of doing was basically this:
::::::*On page save all the links from the article are retrieved from the parser
::::::**if have already been archived nothing is done
::::::**if they have not yet been archived they are added to a queue for a web bot to come by and archive them if they are not blacklisted
::::::*Sometime later a web bot comes by and attempts to retrieve the web page
::::::**if the archive is successful it is saved and displayed on request
::::::**if the web site is down the page is readded to the queue to be checked later, or if the page is still down after a certain number of attempts the the link is assumed to be dead and we stop trying
::::::**if the web site is up but the link can't be archived due to robots.txt, nocache, or noarchive tags automatically blacklist the site for a certain amount of time
::::::**if the web site is up but the page comes back as a 404 or a redirect assume it as a failed attempt, note it, and blacklist that link
::::::*Add a hook to the parser to display a link to access the cached version of the page for every external link on the wiki, or possibly configurable options, this will be done on parse so the link may link to stuff that has not yet been archived or where the archive was unsuccessful
::::::That's basically it in a nutshell. The actual framework of getting done is really the easy part. The hard part is sanitizing everything to make sure this can be done without any security holes. Due to this it is unlikely that I will be storing java script or flash objects as they are difficult to sanitize. Images are '''mostly''' secure but you can have some security vulnerabilities there as well. As far as changing stuff and linking to stuff that may not exist I realize that some people in the community had a problem with this but this is far less intensive than trying to do queries to figure out what has/hasn't been archived yet. Not to mention that since pages are cached for a significant amount of time (as far as I'm aware it's a week here) it could be a long time before we check back to see if the archive actually exists. It's because of this that I think just linking to stuff that may not exist is the best option. --[[User:Kevin Brown|Kevin Brown]] ([[User talk:Kevin Brown|talk]]) 00:39, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


== [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard|Dispute resolution noticeboard]] ==
== [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard|Dispute resolution noticeboard]] ==

Revision as of 00:39, 10 June 2011

 Policy Technical Proposals Idea lab WMF Miscellaneous 
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New ideas and proposals are discussed here. Before submitting:


Page mover

(moved to village pump to generate more consensus, please continue the discussion there.) This is a proposal for a new user right called the pagemover. Propose that this new user right would be able to move pages that have been move protected (move) and the ability to suppress redirects (suppressredirect). Those are pretty much the main idea I have but it was suggested that the movefile user right be include which is something i am not totally for. I would also like for move-subpages to be included which would give users with the pagemover user right to move pages with their associated subpages. As with any user right, there must be baseline requirements. What I propose is that the requirements for the pagemover right is that:

  • You must have some formal experience with moving pages.
  • You must have at least 500 edits.
  • At least 1 month experience

Let me just brief you of the benefits of having a pagemover. It would make the job of administrators a little easier by having someone else to userfy pages. It would also give users other than administrators the exclusive right of moving pages with their subpages. I myself am in opposition to the idea of pagemovers having the ability to move files as there are already two groups that can do that and their is no need for three. This could be done in a trial (Of Lord, the evil Trial word comes back) to see if it is a good idea or not. And with that I leave it to the community.mauchoeagle (c) 03:31, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

While I'm generally supportive, let me ask you the question that I foresee will ultimately shoot this proposal down. If someone can be trusted enough to be given this user right, why can't they be trusted to be an administrator?
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 03:52, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Alot of respected users of the community were completely shot out of the water (eg My76Strat, Ancient Apparition and Chzz) and this sort of user right would touch the things that admins do without you actually becoming an admin. mauchoeagle (c) 16:02, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is this needed? The number of move-protected pages that need to be moved on any given day is vanishingly small; there's not a huge backlog of such pages waiting around to be moved. Why does a special user right need to be granted where "ask an admin to do it" would work just as well? --Jayron32 04:17, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As I mentioned above, another user right to performs such tasks could take a load off of administrators. And the proposal above is not only moving protected pages it also can move pages with there associated subpages and help with userfies. It always helps to have someone else to do a task, such as userfying, when you come accross pages that need to be userfied almost every day. In my experience with new page patrol, I see them alot. mauchoeagle (c) 15:55, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There isn't much of a load to take off though. Most pagemoves that require an admin aren't moves of protected pages, they're moves over an existing page; completing these moves requires the ability to delete pages. Pages with subpages are typically established pages (subpages are most frequently used for discussion archives) and are rarely moved. Userfication is really the only one done on a regular basis, but is it that difficult to just move it yourself and put a speedy tag on the redirect? Mr.Z-man 16:59, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Support - Although I think that there is very little need for this I can see it could be useful. As one user who has basically lost interest in attempting a run through the gauntlet to become an administrator and who considers the process of choosing one completely and utterly broken (although good folks do become admins so no disrespect intended to them) I think this is a good step towards decoupling the various roles an admin does. In my experience most admins deal in specific things anyway and few use the whole suoite of tools so this would allow those interested in moving pages to do so. --Kumioko (talk) 13:03, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Counter-proposal: Do not allow the right to move move-protected pages, only allow (suppressredirect), and up the requirements

This version would only allow suppressredirect, as moving protected pages seems like a bad idea. The requirements would be:

  • You must have a demonstrate history of constructive moves.
  • You must have at least 3 months of experience.
  • You cannot have a history of using moves to vandalize or content war pages.
  • You should have a communicable reason for wanting the right.

As one of the more prolific filemovers (currently knee deep in a list of 3000 files that all have to be renamed) this user right would allow me to do my job better, and would save the admins that I work with a great deal of time. If it's never been used in an article, there's no need to keep as a redirect a page named File:DSC01234.jpg or File:IMG02468.jpg when the image itself has been moved to something that's more descriptive. There are plenty of other people that work in plenty of other areas that could all benefit from this.

I do not, however, see any reason why allowing non-admins to move a move protected page around is a good idea. For the very tiny number of instances where it would be constructive, an admin is just a template posting or IRC chat away.

Thoughts? Sven Manguard Wha? 20:45, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What are your thoughts on the move-subpages right? mauchoeagle (c) 20:56, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I see all three components as having the potential for chaos should a vandal get a hold of the right, however from personal experience (someone moved my userpage to the mainspace once) I can tell you that an admin can fix straight up move vandalism in less than 30 seconds. I see no reason why it would take any longer to fix move vandalism if the subpages are also taken for a ride. The only component I specificly object to giving out as a right is the ability to move the move-protected pages. Especially when we get into template dependencies and trasnclusions, this could cause serious, widespread damage with a minimal amount of vandalism actions, and is much harder to clean up.
To some degree, the other issue is that I fully expect admins to grant rights to people that in no way deserve those rights, either in willful disregard for the guidelines, or because they don't care enough to even check the guidelines. I saw it with filemover. I'm not going to pretend that this isn't going to be given out like candy to both trustworthy people that will never use the right and untrustworthy people that just keep asking until they get lucky. Sven Manguard Wha? 22:21, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. "suppress-redirect" is a mere convenience for admins, to save having to create a redirect page as part of a move and then delete it after when it's not needed. Particularly for admins doing a lot of a certain type of work, it saves quite a bit of time, and is a bit neater. I'm sceptical about the proliferation of user rights generally (given the misuse issues Sven mentions above), and this one just doesn't seem worth the hassle of managing, and the associated risks. Risks being, most notably, that abuses of suppress-redirect can make inappropriate page moves (or even page move vandalism) harder to catch. Users can just CSD the redirect. Moving subpages is needed less often, and probably carries less risk, but again it doesn't seem worth the trouble to separate it out, especially if it doesn't come with suppress-redirect. Rd232 talk 10:04, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Moving subpages carries less risk? That's a good one. Some rather nasty pagemove vandals have been known to use that option on things such as userpages with lots of subpages, and are thus able to vandalize upwards of twenty pages within a minute. Moving subpages is a right which is hardly used anyways, and has a massive potential for abuse. Ajraddatz (Talk) 14:59, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Fair enough. I did say probably... I was thinking it's no harder to undo than ordinary pagemove vandalism, and the subpages (especially of non-move-protected pages) aren't normally of particular prominence. Rd232 talk 15:12, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Much harder to revert, considering that most people don't recognize it as that type of vandalism, and revert each one separately - then users without the noratelimit right get stuck by a rate limit after two reverts. Ajraddatz (Talk) 03:45, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

One possibility which might be useful is to allow editors to suppress the creation of a redirect when moving a (userspace draft) page out of their own userspace into mainspace. That's probably harmless, is a common task, and prevents useless cross-namespace redirects. This would require a software change of some sort, but once done it wouldn't require any management. Rd232 talk 15:18, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • If this was going to be devolved from admins then it sounds like one of the least controversial accesses. move without creating a redirect, and move subpages, override title black list, and no rate limit on moves sounds like a reasonable package to grant as a right. However there must be some limit to the number of different rights before it just gets too confusing for people to understand. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 10:01, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support this would make files work so much better. --Guerillero | My Talk 21:45, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I'm not normally one to support new userrights, but for those of you who don't do NPP you'd be shocked at the absolutely horrific page titles we come across sometimes. I've got hundreds of page moves in my log, and a good number of them are 1. names like BANURI VILLAGE (HIMACHAL PRADESH) from non-native speakers whose often horrendously mangled English isn't confined to the article body and/or 2. titles with missing or extra spaces. This would make it far more efficient; it wouldn't entirely do away with R3, as it seems many NPPers are not very experienced, and sometimes people create redirects that don't quite meet G3 but are clearly implausible anyways (Media shitstorm being created as a redirect to Media circus or Aught-six being redirected to 1906, for instance), but it would definitely help streamline NPP for those of us who know what they're doing. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:22, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Although I might also suggest simply adding this to the filemover user right, as file redirects should be deleted anyway. Alpha Quadrant talk 22:44, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
All rated articles by quality and importance
Quality Importance
Top High Mid Low ??? Total
FA 1,569 2,478 2,395 1,923 179 8,544
FL 180 673 774 702 104 2,433
A 363 681 789 578 92 2,503
GA 3,203 7,278 14,664 19,329 1,746 46,220
B 16,812 32,582 53,861 67,555 22,108 192,918
C 16,749 53,662 134,177 304,135 88,326 597,049
Start 18,517 92,216 414,344 1,601,947 403,984 2,531,008
Stub 4,197 31,568 278,426 2,792,886 760,750 3,867,827
List 4,816 17,009 53,552 191,941 67,490 334,808
Assessed 66,406 238,147 952,982 4,980,996 1,344,779 7,583,310
Unassessed 122 490 1,269 18,655 425,685 446,221
Total 66,528 238,637 954,251 4,999,651 1,770,464 8,029,531
About this table
The current assessment system.
This proposal would add a new row in the table, "FM" (Featured Media).
Alternatively, several new rows could be added, eg "FP" (Featured Pictures)
and "FSV" (Featured Sounds and Videos).
No change to the underlying assessment processes WP:FP etc is involved.

I would like to suggest creating a new class for featured media. This new class would be for Featured Sounds, pictures, videos (currently listed under featured sounds) and potentially topics. I believe that Wikipedia now has enough featured media that a category and class would be beneficial but since these content types have relatively few items individually I do not think we need separate categories for each. Currently some of these are tagged as File, however this would give us a better understanding of what media is currently featured.

I have already spoken to CBM who programs the bot that updates the assessment tables and he indicated that it could be done.

A few notes about the idea.

  1. Will help us identify the featured media so we can start identifying other media that could be promotable to featured status.
  2. Will allow projects to see if one of these is deleted, recommended for deletion or demotion, etc. via the Article alert bot
  3. Will help promote the use of our featured media
  4. There are currently about 364 featured sounds/videos.
  5. there are about 2747 featured pictures --Kumioko (talk) 02:13, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand. What's a new "class" supposed to be? A new namespace? Cambalachero (talk) 02:25, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I should have been more clear. A new class for article assessments. Currently we have A, B, C, GA, FA, FL, List, Start, Stub, File, Template, Category, and a couple of others. So basically we can identify a featured article and a featured list but not featured media (pictures, sounds, etc.) that only way to know its featured is to click on it. --Kumioko (talk) 02:32, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, merging the current featured sounds, pictures, etc into a new large-scope class, similar to FA, is a excellent idea. —[d'oh] 03:23, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sounds good. I wonder though if we shouldn't plan ahead a bit and make Featured Pictures a separate class. Otherwise, in 5 years' time we might have to split the category. AFAIK categories with no content don't appear in the assessment summary box, so most of the time, with so few multimedia, this wouldn't mean an extra category, since most projects would only have Featured Pictures. Rd232 talk 04:15, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose thats true. There is a lot of content out there that could be featured the problem is we don't have a very active promotion system for non pictures. The videos and sounds never seemed to get going so thats why we only have a few. --Kumioko (talk) 13:27, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, featured sounds seem to be growing in number lately. --Another Believer (Talk) 03:54, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thats great, I admit I don't actively watch those pages but I suspect if we created a class that might help to increase visibility of this type of content. --Kumioko (talk) 16:03, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'd rather have one Featured Media category than not be able to decide and end up not doing anything... Rd232 talk 17:11, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Since the assessment classes are 'owned' by the WP:1.0 team, their input would be useful here. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:48, 26 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's rather easy to do, and I don't see how it could harm WikiProjects (aside from the up-front assessment work, but even that wouldn't be too hard). The main question I have is how we would handle images on Commons—if they get deleted there, we can't pick that up in the local deletion log. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 21:09, 26 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There is User:CommonsNotificationBot. Rd232 talk 01:39, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thats a good point on Commons. I don't know what the best approach would be for associating commons files with a WikiProject myself. I had added the WikiProject US banner to several images that were commons images and other users came along and deleted the WikiProject banner so I stopped adding it to Commons related files. --Kumioko (talk) 01:11, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The simplest would be to create the equivalent talkpage on Wikipedia and tag that. Rd232 talk 01:52, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I misunderstood the proposal, therefore this answer is off topic. Sven Manguard Wha? 17:23, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
  • Oppose FP/FS merge This would be a mess. Featured Sounds has clearly defined and high standards. Featured Sounds has poorly defined and admittedly iffy standards. Videos are accepted into Featured Sounds on the primarily on grounds of their audio quality, however often enough the video quality is sacrificed to improve the audio, leaving something acceptable for a Featured Sound but not so much for a Featured Media. The two areas, FP and FS, would not merge well together, I don't think. Sven Manguard Wha? 22:02, 26 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongest Possible Oppose for including FT as part of any of this! It's hard for me to comment on this component of the proposal without being rude or condescending. FT has nothing to do with media. If you want to merge off FT, which is something I don't see any reason for, merge it with a Featured Books process to create a "Featured Collections" entity. Do not, however, merge it with media. If merging FP and FS does go through, it should only be for the top items in the file namespace, period. Sven Manguard Wha? 22:02, 26 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think the proposal is getting confused a little so let me clarify the intent a little. The purpose of this proposal is NOT to merge FP, FS or even FT's. What it does is add a "Class" for featured media to the WikiProject assessment tables. Currently we have Featured Article and Featured list but nothing for pictures, video, sounds or topics. All we can do is lump them under File. I would be ok with creating separate classes for each however I just don't think we have enough content built up in those yet to warrant seperate classes for each one. --Kumioko (talk) 01:11, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yep. I've added an assessment table - a picture's worth a thousand words. Rd232 talk 01:42, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you that did help to explain things. --Kumioko (talk) 13:17, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thats fine, that was always sort of a maybe anyway. --Kumioko (talk) 16:45, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I updated several more files relating to adding the new class but Template:Cat class is protected and I cannot change it. I think this is whats causing it to not work properly. --Kumioko (talk) 02:42, 7 June 2011 (UTC) I think were gonna need to update Template:Class mask also. --Kumioko (talk) 02:56, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That shouldn't be the problem. The banner template for WikiProject United States is not populating the Featured Media category for the project, so the bot is not picking it up. However, {{Cat class}} is a display template, which does not affect how the categories are populated, and {{Class mask}} was edited here already. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 03:15, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

All I get is NA class if I put in fm or File class if I put in Featured Media. Is anything different supposed to appear? Is there an example of a successfully parsed fm class file? Since this is a featured class shouldn't it be standard for all projects? --Guerillero | My Talk 06:29, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you are using WPBannerMeta, you need to modify your WikiProject's banner in order to accept FM-Class as a valid option (see example). You can request assistance at Template talk:WPBannerMeta and one of the friendly people there may do it for you. As for FM being a standard class, I think so as well (or at least included in the extended assessment scale), so you can voice your opinion about that at WPBannerMeta talk too. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 21:15, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
WikiProject US is working now. I'm not sure if someone else modified something to make it work or if the servers just needed to catch up but the bot is picking them up now. --Kumioko (talk) 23:15, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting concept. I like the idea of keeping track of project files although not sure how to automate this with Commons content. For Wikipedia:WikiProject Turtles, I actually just made a little manual montage of all the featured pictures on the topic (from WP or from Commons). So, I think it's something that I can see Projects wanting to track or liking to put up on their sites to intrigue visitors, motivate file work, etc. See here: Wikipedia:WikiProject Turtles/Turtles Featured Pictures.TCO (talk) 03:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Media request page

Can we set up something similar to WP:BOTREQ, but for free media? I think a lot of times, users want to include an image (or other media) in an article, but may not have the necessary skills or software for that purpose. These users could request the creation of media for a specific article at that new desk. Someone with image editing software, audio editing software or video editing software could act on behalf of that request and create media. This media should then licensed under an appropriate license by the creator for uploading at Commons. I don't know if there were enough people willing to create such media or even if there were enough requests, but if there were, then that new desk would be a good place to centralize such requests.

Since our goal is to create a free encyclopedia, this would be beneficial for and in line with the overall mission of Wikipedia.

This could be run as a trial first inorder to evaluate, how the reception of this concept would be.

Just an idea from me. Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 12:03, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Are you aware of Wikipedia:Requested pictures? Yoenit (talk) 12:26, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the wikilink. However I think that's not exactly the answer to my request
  • WP:FFU is for those who whish to submit files, thus would be for those answering at the new page I am suggesting, not for those requesting there
  • WP:GL only deals with content that has already been uploaded
  • Wikipedia:Requested pictures is only a help page
  • {{reqphoto}} only categorizes requests
Therefore I think there is no page yet like the one I am proposing. And I think the page I propose would be useful, since it would follow the format used by WP:BOTREQ (which is more of a desk, like help desk or the reference desks). I welcome all critical comments on this proposal. Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 12:55, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Commons is the repository for free media, so shouldn't this idea be suggested there? We don't want free media on Wikipedia as someone has to manually move it to Commons so it can be used by the other projects. – ukexpat (talk) 16:58, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Wikipedia:Requested pictures is only a help page" - no, it isn't, look at all the subpage lists. It is just not commonly useful. Rmhermen (talk) 14:26, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Commons already has similar pages: commons:Commons:Picture requests and commons:Commons:Audio and video requests. MKFI (talk) 11:35, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OTRS Noticeboard

Wikimedia commons has a Noticeboard for OTRS members to answer questions asked by other users.(Commons:Commons:OTRS/Noticeboard) The advantage of this is that a user can get a quicker response to any questions regarding a ticket. I think it would be just as useful to have the same thing on Wikipedia. MorganKevinJ(talk) 16:13, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Depends who you mean by that. I'm an OTRS volunteer, and I love it. :) I'm not an OTRS admin, but seeing as how there's a board on Commons already, I can't imagine why they'd have a problem with it. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 22:53, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As an OTRS volunteer who handles a great many Commons and enwiki permissions tickets, my only concern is that I am commonly at Commons and watch the OTRS noticeboard there. I'd have to remember to come here and check for changes. I can also see confusion arising, where the mirroring of files gets OTRS questions asked here for files actually at Commons. If the OTRS volunteer who tagged such a file only participates at Commons, well, they're not going to be providing any information on it from their perspective. – Adrignola talk 14:48, 30 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be perfectly fine with doing a soft redirect to your noticeboard; you guys are really on the ball over there. :D But if the board also covers other issues, that could be a problem. :/ --Moonriddengirl (talk) 00:41, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I also think this would be fundamentally different - the main arrangements for deletion were It's targeted at non-editors and handles non-public data. Looking at the Commons board, it seems like it is targeted to editors, and I don't see any non-public data posted there. Avicennasis @ 18:12, 27 Iyar 5771 / 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Uw-3rr, ANEW, and WP:Don't template the regulars

I've noticed that the line "diff of 3rr warning" in each ANEW report encourages templating of experienced or semi-experienced editors. Thus I am proposing that a template for experienced users be made for the purposes of 3RR warnings.Jasper Deng (talk) 22:37, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WP:DTTR is a mindbogglingly stupid page. Regulars should be templated; it's newbies who should be handled more carefully. I see absolutely no reason why experienced editors in an editwar--as in, people who should know better--should be treated nicer than people who may or may not know the rules. → ROUX ₪ 22:41, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I dunno; you're assuming that the individual, personalized message left is kinder and more pleasant than the template. I have the impression that the opposite is frequently true, especially for people who are dealing with basic vandals on the WP:Recent changes patrol. There's a limit to how many times most of us can say craft friendly notices that amount to, "Please stop adding 'I LOVE CHEESEBURGERS!!!!' to articles" before we lose our tempers.
I think the point behind DTTR is that templating an experienced person is unnecessary, and likely to offend the recipient by failing to acknowledge his 'status' as a part of the community. Besides, someone like you and I doesn't need a link to the usual explanatory pages for the typical warnings; we're not going to wonder what "Knock off the edit warring already" or "Quit spamming your blog into articles" means. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:27, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with ROUX: DO template the regulars. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 23:59, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That's exactly the point though; there shouldn't be status like that. People who know better should be held to a higher standard; the inverse of this means we should be taking the time to not template newbies (blatant vandals excluded; they know exactly what they're doing and should be treated accordingly), whereas regular editors deserve to be told "I can't be bothered to write out something by hand for you, because you should know better already. → ROUX ₪ 00:06, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I find DTTR valuable for this notion: "A personal message tends to work better in these situations. If you have a question, why not ask the experienced user your question? You may begin a dialogue that will prove much more effective than a template." With an experienced editor it's much, much more likely they've either made a mistake or that I'm missing the reason behind their actions. A question is more helpful in this case than a template. --NeilN talk to me 00:08, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed with Roux. I don't follow DTTR at all. Mind you, that's because I work in files and I have to inform people when their files are up for deletion. Still though, as I resize non-free files, I get non-free orphaned image templates regularly enough. Experianced editors should be expected to notice the template, take appropriate action, and dispose of the template when it is no longer needed. It's what I do, and I really don't get what all the whining about template messages is about. Sven Manguard Wha? 01:07, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I do not follow it either and User:Roux made a good point, but people want me to follow it, like User:Orangemarlin that yelled at me after. ~~EBE123~~ talkContribs 13:25, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@NeilN: Personal messages are fine too, but when you have to deliver dozens upon dozens of messages in a reasonable period of time, templates are efficient, civil, and for the most part unambiguous ways of doing that. Sven Manguard Wha? 01:12, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
While you do get complaints for doing so I find templating users 3rr warnings to be useful as it gives them all the dispute resolution information in one easy to see space.
Though as you do get complaints for using the template on regulars possibly a workable compromise would be to add another template with similar information, but without the warning symbol and stuff. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 13:28, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Could add a |regular=yes parameter to adapt the template message appropriately. At the end of the day "DTTR" is primarily about not insulting oldtimers by acting as if they're newbies, not about not using standard messages. Rd232 talk 13:49, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Good idea. Then all we need to do is get it up and running in Twinkle, but that shouldn't be too hard. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:26, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It would require extensive editing of the uw warning templates, but, I feel it'll make the project run more efficiently. User:AzaToth, developer of Twinkle, has been notified.Jasper Deng (talk) 19:15, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Frankly solving the problem for the 3rr template would solve 90% of the possible issues with templating the regulars. Usually the others aren't particularly useful with regulars anyway. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:33, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well then maybe we shouldn't complicate all the templates, especially as it's probably best to start from scratch for regulars, rather than build from the newbie version. How about something in the direction of {{Uw-3rr-resolve}}? Rd232 talk 22:07, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That'll be nice - except, we don't want to sound too nagging.Jasper Deng (talk) 03:22, 30 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You will not 'solve' DTTR by changing the wording of a template. The reason that you should not template regulars is that templates are designed for clear cases. For example, {{uw-ew}} is great - but only if edit warring is obvious. Regulars know the rules, and they are not going to be doing anything they believe violates the rules of the project. Templates say "You are violating rule X, stop." - some as bluntly, others more politely. Experienced users are extremely likely to have a reason they believe their action is justified. Applying a template in such a case is going to come across as very rude. Write a personal note. Obviously this problem wouldn't a apply for things like not including sources in images, in that case a template would be fine for any user. Prodego talk 05:20, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How about something like {{Uw-3rr-resolve}}? Rd232 talk 09:54, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not going to write a personal note for edit warring that contains the appropriate dispute resolution links, which the user may not know. Even for clear edit warring you get shit for using the standard template. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 06:37, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Why not leave a personalized message asking that they cease edit warring, followed by the template, followed by a report to 3rr. If they are really a regular, and don't have a history of tendentious editing, why not AGF instead of rushing to meat the threshold to report them? Monty845 18:29, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Personally I wouldn't bother giving them a message until the 3rd revert, at which point its a bit of a stretch to assume good faith - and giving them a link with all the resources is useful for them - we all get angry from time to time and over-revert. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:35, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There's a reason why TW does not provide uw-3rr1, uw-3rr2, uw-3rr3, and uw-3rr4.Jasper Deng (talk) 04:13, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I never mind being templated if the template applies. I'd rather get a template than no notification at all. One reason why I like templates is that they're neutral, they help avoid the appearance of canvassing and could be less offensive than a personal note that might rub someone the wrong way. I try to follow DTTR when I can remember to, but not because I believe in it, but rather because "we're supposed to". I do often use a personal note when a template is available, but it's because I want to convey something in a way other than the template, or want my message to be more personable. But I do the same with newbies and regulars alike and don't discriminate. -- Atama頭 17:46, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The way I see it, it all depends on which template. Obviously the "if you're new here and didn't know it" forms of templates are patronizing when used on an editor with a few hundred edits. On the other hand I think the emotionally-neutral tone and clear progression (you could be blocked, you will be blocked, do it again and you're getting blocked) are of great value in dispute resolution. HominidMachinae (talk) 20:09, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Several changes to file naming

I have identified several issues with file naming on Wikipedia, and believe that it should be made a priority that they are fixed. They are:

  • Case sensitivity in image names: As it stands, three separate users could upload three separate images of three separate subjects called File:TestImage.jpg, File:TeStImAgE.jpg, and File:Testimage.jpg. There is no reason why file names should be case sensitive.
  • Multiple filetype extensions for the same filetype: As it stands, two separate users could upload two separate images of two separate subjects as File:TestImage.jpg and File:TestImage.jpeg. There is no reason for this.
  • Case sensitivity in filetype extensions: As it stands, and as I have seen at least twice recently, two separate images can be uploaded as File:TestImage.jpg and File:TestImage.JPG. This has the potential to cause even more problems that the above situations. There is no reason why filetype extensions should be case sensitive.

Why does this matter? This has and will continue to cause confusing situations. People upload multiple copies of the same image because they are looking for it and cannot find it under what is essentially an almost identical name. It is counter-intuitive for someone who has uploaded File:TestImage.jpg to, upon not finding the image, look for it at File:TestImage.JPG. Instead, time after time users, especially new users, assume that the upload didn't stick and they then re-upload the same image. They get a notice that the image is already there, which is confusing to them because they already looked and already couldn't find it. I've also seen cases where someone tries to put an image into an article, gets the case wrong somewhere, and then panics because the image dosen't show up.

I don't know if it's feasible, but if the community decides that it's worth doing and the coders determine that it's feasible, I'd like to remove case sensitivity in both image names and filetype extensions. I would also like for some sort of patch to be put in so that all iterations of a given filetype extension (JPG, jpg, Jpg, JPEG, jpeg, JpEg, etc.) function interchangeably.

Thoughts? Sven Manguard Wha? 08:24, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Addendum: If implemented here, this would not affect files from Commons. Therefore at the conclusion of this discussion, if it is successful, I will either ask the developers if this could be implemented WMF wide or, if they want it, start an identical thread on Commons. I didn't think of that until now. Sorry Sven Manguard Wha? 19:05, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree I agree with all of these points - especially number 2 which has potential to cause much confusion. Oddbodz (talk) 08:35, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Totally agree. There is no reason why we must force article functionality onto files, and now that filemoving is enabled, it would be simple to fix project wide. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 09:20, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I would hope that a bot would be able to check for naming conflicts and then once those are taken care of backend code would be able to do the rest. I see that File:Example.jpg and Image:Example.jpg work interchanabally in the articlespace, so I was hoping, at least for the second of the three points here, that an identical situation (all forms of a filetype being capable of being used interchanabally) could be done up. Sven Manguard Wha? 18:54, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support 2,3. Case-sensitive and "synonym" extensions can only serve to confuse and have no real benefit. I am unsure if it will be feasible at this point to have case-insensitive file names. I'm sure there are plenty of cases where File:AIR.jpg and File:Air.jpg stand for some organisation AIR and the other for air component chart or something. The mess and workload it will create may overweight the actual benefits. But I'm educated guessing, someone working a lot with images/moving should comment. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 09:41, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • If there are too many conflicts, one solution might be to make it so that current files are uneffected, while files in the future cannot be uploaded if an identical name exists in a different case configuration (similar to how users can no longer upload images with names like File:IMG0002.jpg, however the files already named like this are unchanged. I know that implementing it here would require a different solution, but the concept is the same.) Sven Manguard Wha? 18:59, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

FYI: I was told to post at BugZilla bug 4421 and have done so. Sven Manguard Wha? 05:39, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support fixes for all 3 cases specified. H3llkn0wz has a reasonable concern about AIR.jpg vs. Air.jpg but Sven's suggestion to grandfather in existing conflicts of that nature until they can be resolved eases my concern about that. Allowing separate images to be uploaded as (to make up an example) both Disney Logo.png and Disney logo.png is just asking for headaches and confusion. 28bytes (talk) 05:49, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    As far as I know, we also have a similar block of uploading files that conflict with Commons, but existing conflicts remain until fixed. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 06:07, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    I intend on fixing the commons conflicts, just as soon as I'm done fixing the bad image names (there are 3000 of them, see user:Chzz/dsc0511 for a sample of what I'm dealing with now). If this is approved, and the number of conflicts is reasonably sized, I'll work on that before I get to the commons conflicts too. The great thing about filemover is that there are a half dozen people that are actively helping to clean out these massive backlogs, a task previously inaccessible to non-admins. I don't see the naming conflicts as being a long term headache, they can get cleaned up rather quickly if this goes through. Sven Manguard Wha? 23:45, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support to all 3 above. Case in point being file:Miranda Kerr.jpg vs file:Miranda Kerr.JPG. At present, it's just luck that we do not have file:Miranda Kerr.jpeg and file:Miranda Kerr.JPEG too ;-) Illogical! --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 08:00, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support 2&3, some files do need to have their names distinguished. —James (Talk • Contribs) • 10:08pm • 12:08, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I have been the victim of similar mistakes, and it is frustrating how long it takes to sort it out, because I essentially assumed case wouldn't matter, so it never occurred to me to track that down.--SPhilbrickT 22:29, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - The above linked bug was first brought up in 2005. If you'd like to see it implemented, don't just show your support here, but login to bugzilla:4421 and vote there too. This will let the devs see how much support it has. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 08:04, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, I don't like to add images and have to look multiple times for the uppercased letters. mabdul 08:52, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support 2 and 3, because they are fairly logical; I'm not so sure about 1, given that there may be legitimate reasons to upload different files under different casings. —mc10 (t/c) 00:56, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support if this change is made on all projects, particularly Commons. We don't need different functions on different projects. Also, we need to discuss how the mass renaming would be handled; add a "1" at the end of the newer file name before extension maybe? Rehman 08:37, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Good Article on Hold Template

Many articles are nominated as Good Articles and put on hold by reviewers. Reviewers leave a message on the talk page with a link to this list. However, many editors will not check the talk page and not know that the article is on hold. I wish to add this template to all articles which have been put on hold so that the message is on articles and talk pages.

The template is in my user space and is not yet in use. I wish to see if anyone would agree with this template beeing put into use. Oddbodz (talk) 08:46, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What exactly does "on hold" mean here? I suggest that the words "on hold" should link to an explanation. -- John of Reading (talk) 08:51, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think this is a good idea. We don't want to clutter the article page with unnecessary stuff. There is not actually a problem, so a template drawing attention may not be needed. What you are trying to achieve is help from editors, but instead the 95% of readers will have their experience degraded. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 09:08, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There really are not that many GANs on hold: Category:Good_article_nominees_currently_on_hold. WO:GAN#On_hold is placed while the nominator addresses the issues. Why do the readers (tag on article) need to be notified of this? Editors would only be notified (tag on talk) if they have the article watchlisted in the first place, but then they would have already known about the GAN. I think this is redundant to the category and the article tag is of interest to only a few editors. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 09:34, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think editnotice would be more appropriate since it would not clutter up the article but it would still be seen by anyone trying to edit the article.MorganKevinJ(talk) 19:31, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I support idea of an editnotice. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:39, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, Nearly every article has at least one information box. It is good if there are some articles that don't have any! Normally the user only wants to read the article and doesn't know how to edit - and won't change if there is a new box informing the user. Normally the reader doesn't know what this information is about. mabdul 08:49, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Suspend sysop rights after 1 Year of inactivity

The issue of Inactive Admins has reared it ugly head again after one admin account was hijacked by White supremacist editors. Arbcom made an emergency De-sysop of Spencer195 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) whose last edit was in 2005 to prevent possible damage to the community. Given Spencer195 off the Wikipedia for six years before being compromised there seems no assurance that dormant account are as safe as assumed.

Its been three years since the last major proposal on this was made. In that time Wikipedia prominence has grown...

Lengthy discussion moved to Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/suspend sysop rights of inactive admins.

Brainstorm over increasing privileged account security

Seeing as a lot of this is revolving around a concern for admin account security, I'd like to briefly mention a few different ways/possibilities that could possibly be done while maintaining anonymity, privacy, and the like—at least within reason. Keep in mind that I'm not talking about bulletproof security, but simply a second factor of authentication that could be used to practically verify identity or secure logins as general (and possibly optional) practice.

  • Public key infrastructure — It might be a good idea to ask users with enhanced permission sets to use a free, basic PKI package (e.g., GNUPG) to generate and publish a strong (>=4096 bit) public key set to expire within a practical period of time so as to help negate long-term key attacks. Only problem is that keys can be lost in hard drive crashes or just by accident. Within reason, though, if someone is active and then loses their private key, one could probably judge by their behavior whether or not they're who they're claiming to be.
  • Token-based auth — Several technologies exist that would enable this. SecurID and related technologies cost money, but might be available at a discount or something for a non-profit. There are also software-based versions of hardware tokens, and there are free implementations of otherwise proprietary implementations. eTokens are fairly cheap, too, but do still require buying something.
  • Account security questions — Everyone's had to deal with these, but we could make something reasonable that would allow you to create your own questions (very important) and supply your own answers.

Using these methods, you wouldn't necessarily have to authenticate with them regularly (which might be a total pain), but it might be an idea to do something similar to what the toolserver does when it comes to account renewal: after a period of time (say in this case 1 year or after a stretch of inactivity), ask people with extended permissions to visit a site and "renew" their permissions using one of several methods of advanced identification that would be on file. That way, if someone loses their private key, they can answer their security questions instead; if they forget their account security questions, they could use their token or their private key instead; etc....

All of these would also help get around cases where someone forgets their password, someone maliciously changes it on them, or whatever other scenarios might arise.

Anyway, t'was just brainstormin'.

Cheers =) --slakr\ talk / 22:22, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's really more Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Account security territory. Perhaps you could move your thoughts there, as this thread is already quite long enough. Rd232 talk 00:05, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Increasing Wikipedia security

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
This discussion is superseded by the new RFC at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Account security. If necessary please take any points made here across to the RFC. Rd232 talk 16:52, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Renewed activity notification

The primary aim of the admin-suspension proposal above is to improve security (though there are clearly secondary considerations about admins staying in touch as well). Are there any additional measures we can take to improve security for all accounts? I have a suggestion (the recent email notification system suggests this should be feasible). We could automatically email editors who return after 3 months' inactivity with a brief "welcome back" email - and include in the email something in the direction of "if you didn't edit recently, your account might have been hijacked; in this case please login and check your contributions and if you have any concerns, change your password". This behaviour would be the default, but it would be controlled by a Preferences setting, to change the inactivity time period, or to turn it off completely. The advantage of this is that once implemented (in software; in theory it could be done by bot in the interim), it just works, without anybody needing to do anything. Thoughts? PS To be clear, I support the above proposal on de/re-sysopping; this would be additional, and based on the logic that the best person to detect account hijacking is the person whose account it is. Rd232 talk 15:04, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Facebook sends an email when a user returns after being away for a period of a month or more saying "Welcome back!" This lets the editor know that their account is being used, not directly warning them, but it would warn them if their account was hijacked. Facebook also sends emails when the wrong password is entered, saying "We see that you are having trouble accessing your account." These would both be good ideas for WP. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 19:23, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Supplementary thought: if it doesn't already, removing or changing a verified email address ought to send a notification to the old address. Rd232 talk 15:08, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Asking people to check their contribs seems like asking a lot. Most people who wind up getting that notification might not even know what a contribution is. It might be simpler (though less liberal) to follow a more standard security model such as requiring re-verification after a certain period of inactivity in order to log in again. Equazcion (talk) 15:25, 1 Jun 2011 (UTC)
? They'd get a link in the email to Special:Contributions. Should be clear enough. Rd232 talk 15:39, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Not a bad idea, but it probably ought to be handled as a separate proposal and not a subsection of the sysop-flag suspension proposal. 28bytes (talk) 15:45, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, I've split it off. Rd232 talk 16:15, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
...and FT2 has reverted you. (Hopefully accidentally and not as an attempt to derail the main proposal now that's it's finally getting considerable support.) 28bytes (talk) 19:14, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Can't see this - if I've reverted anyone else's edit please do fix it :) FT2 (Talk | email) 19:40, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've resplit the related but distinct proposals. Rd232 talk 20:00, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If we want to improve security, is there a way we can require MediaWiki not to accept passwords shorter than, say seven characters, and they must include at least one numeral and alphabetical character, too? /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 19:09, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, libraries such as cracklib which I mentioned above can do this (and a php interface for MediaWiki would probably be trivial), but as I also said, doing this wouldn't be popular with users because as much as we'd like to deny it, many users really like to use weak passwords :) --Tothwolf (talk) 20:05, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Given that many other websites have similar systems set in place, and anyone arguing against password security probably needs a serious reality check, I think getting consensus for it won't be extremely difficult. Then again ... even Sarah Palin's password reset thing was tricked (why would you ever use your dog's real name or whatever it was?). I'm just glad MediaWiki doesn't have security questions, like "What was your mother's maiden name?" /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 21:24, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In response to that incident, Yahoo did at least improve their password recovery system. --Tothwolf (talk) 01:55, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@Fetchcomms, so password1 meets those requirements. That's not a wildly secure password. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:10, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Now that's a red herring... A password such as "password1" would not be allowed by cracklib. --Tothwolf (talk) 01:52, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Even if it isn't required, why not use cracklib (or something like it) to inform users of their password strength? It looks like the license is compatible with WM, we could install it and try it out. It could be set to offer a real-time password strength test, or a warning similar to the no-edit-summary warning. I think requiring all users to use strong passwords might have too many variables to get consensus easily, but testing out a warning system shouldn't have much opposition. If it integrates well, we could move from there. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 08:51, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There's not too much point in requiring complex passwords for all accounts so long as we allow users to log in via non-encrypted connections. My guess is the computational cost of requiring https for everyone would be high. We're working through some of these issues at work, fwiw. My suggestions would be:
-Admin accounts be required to use https and complex passwords
-Normal accounts have a length requirement and cracklib check. I have seen web systems that use a red-yellow-green bar that provides visual feedback on password strength. We can likely get significant improvements in passwords just by showing users a visual indicator of their password strength.
-Provide email notification of renewed activity after 90 days of inactivity for accounts with more than X edits (I'd say 1000), idea being that light editors may have long periods of inactivity on a regular basis.
FWIW, --Nuujinn (talk) 10:23, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Good ideas. Incidentally I use HTTPS Everywhere addon for Firefox to force use of the secure WP servers. I don't know if the same can potentially be done in software or with a Gadget (for admins On by default), but at least encouraging admins to use HTTPS would help (in combination with a decent password). Rd232 talk 14:03, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Rd232, these are all good ideas. Requiring admins to have stronger passwords than new users is especially smart. We don't want to annoy new users by forcing them to come up with complex passwords when they're first registering, but we don't want admins to rely on weak "new user passwords" either. 28bytes (talk) 15:26, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Security issues could be noted at Wikipedia:New admin school, which is very easy; plus in theory, as a one off following this discussion, every admin could be notified by bot (talkpage at least, maybe email too) to check their password strength. But I'm wondering too if we couldn't have the software email everyone when they get to 1000 edits (say), as in "well done! thanks! BTW, how secure is your password, etc - maybe consider checking against strong/medium/weak indicator here..." (presuming we get one of those, as we should). Rd232 talk 16:27, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've moved subsection "Admin account verification and admin know-how" before this section, as it only deals with admins. Anyway, I support sending a ‘welcome back’ email to users who resume editing after 90 days of inactivity (but I'd add an option in the preferences to disable it), I support warning users about insecure passwords but oppose disallowing them from using such passwords if they still want to (except for admins and possibly reviewers, rollbackers etc.), and I'm neutral wrt requiring admins to use the secure server. ― A. di M.​plé​dréachtaí 16:38, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
See this Signpost article where a researcher from the University of Cambridge commented about several password security aspects of Wikipedia. Since then, two of his "low-hanging fruit" suggestions to improve security have been coded into MediaWiki (password complexity checker: rev:70520, encrypt password transmission: rev:75585), but are not activated yet on Wikimedia sites (as far as I am aware). On the upside, Ryan Lane and other Foundation staff are currently working on a major overhaul of HTTPS access to Wikimedia sites (earlier announcement, preliminary test at [1]), which should resolve various issues with the secure server.
Regards, HaeB (talk) 02:17, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If we are going to make https: more common then the all the components of the page loaded must alsop be https: At the moment there are several javascripts and images loaded with http: even when you logon with the secure protocol. These are a weakness because they leak out the referrer and cookie information. I attempted to disable some, but there were to many parts and cannot easily disable some javascripts such as the geolocator, and ad banner stuff. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 05:38, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How weak exactly peoples' passwords are

Well, Lulz Security today announced that they hacked into multiple unprotected Sony databases and accessed passwords/addresses/names/emails/etc. of one million users. They released a sample of those, so let's see how weak peoples' passwords are: [3], [4], [5]. For heavens' sake, the issue here is not old admin accounts. It is old admin accounts with weak passwords. Desysopping only "solves" half the issue. We must have MediaWiki require stronger passwords (i.e., a certain length, including both numerals and letters, cannot include the word "password" or something—some idiots are still using that in the above links, FFS). Does anyone else think that such a mechanism must be implemented? /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 23:08, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

hand up. Should be... but how? Will there be a post upon login that says "Your old password has been rejected, please pick a new one"? There are currently 14 million accounts... just saying. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 03:04, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It can be rolled-out, starting with admins/user right groups, moved on to new accounts... Then, yeah, ask them to change their password. After the Sony hacks, I don't think people would be surprised. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 03:14, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You should read up on Wikipedia:User account security and bugzilla:16435. It's important to note that some developers have actively called for users to use weaker, easier to remember passwords, as the value of most Wikipedia accounts is next to nothing. --MZMcBride (talk) 16:09, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have to agree, if a user who only makes a small number of edits wants to set their password to something pretty basic does it really matter? Making them have a more secure password is likely to discourage them from editing. Enforcing a stricter password policy on people with rollback or admin rights seems reasonable.-- Eraserhead1 <talk> 09:04, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I read a paper a couple of years ago about enforced strong passwords having the obvious effect of people being unable to remember them, so they write them down, often in the dumbest places, like on a Post-it note on the side of their monitor. OK, that's not a problem that will be exposed by dramas of the kind experienced by Sony above, nor a big issue for Wikipedia, but obviously still not ideal. HiLo48 (talk) 09:13, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"the issue here is not old admin accounts. It is old admin accounts with weak passwords. Desysopping only "solves" half the issue." I would add that this issue applies to all accounts, regardless of which permission bits the account holds. As Mr.Z-man pointed out above, removing the admin bit actually fixes nothing and only promotes a false sense of "security". --Tothwolf (talk) 18:41, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Forcing users who only wish to make a small number of edits to have strong passwords might well discourage them completely, certainly I would be discouraged if the password requirements were very strict, and as HiLo48 points out then people might well write them down or do other things like that. Forcing some level of password security on admins, or on those with rollback rights would probably be a good idea in supplement to this proposal. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 11:03, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

New RfC

I've started a new RfC with the advice of Rd232 (talk · contribs) about account security on the English Wikipedia. Discussion is welcome about adding new security features to Wikipedia's registration process (and dealing with existing accounts). The RfC is located at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Account security. I urge everyone who has participated here to comment, because it seems that this is a potentially serious issue, and many users are in favor of reducing security risks per the above desysopping thread. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 03:35, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Quick question - does WP require email validation to start an account? If not, I would at least recommend requiring email validation for Admins (maybe for user rights). Even if email contact for other users is disabled, we could validate a method of contact, so that they are sure to get those warning emails. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 05:06, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It is optional but highly recommended. MER-C 09:22, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, thanks. I think that I'll mention it at the RfC. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 09:26, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Tool for WebCite archiving

I request that a semi-automated tool be created that helps editors to quickly archive references with WebCite. Going through an article with lots of citations and archiving them all case by case per hand is really annoying and wastes time that could otherwise be spent on improving article content. This tool ideally should make it possible to archive all references at once, with only one click. Again, going through an article with hundreds of references and archiving them all on a case-by-case basis is extremely ineffective and time-consuming. And linkrot is a serious enough problem that justifies the creation of such a tool. And while WebCite might not be ideal to archive all kinds of content, it would still be better than having no such tool at all. Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 11:40, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please see Wikipedia:Gadget/proposals MorganKevinJ(talk) 21:01, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
One of the Wikimedia Foundation's Google Summer of Code projects is about this, see [6], and also the links there. Regards, HaeB (talk) 02:01, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hey I'm the developer for the above GSOC project. I just wanted to say hi and get a feel for what kind of features the community would like to have for an external link archival extension in mediawiki. I notice from the currently stalled RFC on whether to implement wikiwix there appears to be significant disagreement over how external links should be modified in articles. The path I am thinking of going would modify links and add a link to take you to the cache for the page for every external link. I was wondering if the community would like the ability to limit this to say a specific category out of the box as consensus for implementation seems to be difficult to get. --Kevin Brown (talk) 21:38, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What exactly do you mean by "Specific category"? Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 00:20, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Like where the feature is only enabled on a certain category that could be configured. For instance something like Category:Pages that use automated archival. --Kevin Brown (talk) 00:29, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds good to me, if there is consensus to do this. What about drafting an RfC? However I think we should try to reach consensus here first. So maybe you should outline here, what exactly you have in mind, probably as a subsesction of this section? Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 00:45, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What I was thinking of doing was basically this:
  • On page save all the links from the article are retrieved from the parser
    • if have already been archived nothing is done
    • if they have not yet been archived they are added to a queue for a web bot to come by and archive them if they are not blacklisted
  • Sometime later a web bot comes by and attempts to retrieve the web page
    • if the archive is successful it is saved and displayed on request
    • if the web site is down the page is readded to the queue to be checked later, or if the page is still down after a certain number of attempts the the link is assumed to be dead and we stop trying
    • if the web site is up but the link can't be archived due to robots.txt, nocache, or noarchive tags automatically blacklist the site for a certain amount of time
    • if the web site is up but the page comes back as a 404 or a redirect assume it as a failed attempt, note it, and blacklist that link
  • Add a hook to the parser to display a link to access the cached version of the page for every external link on the wiki, or possibly configurable options, this will be done on parse so the link may link to stuff that has not yet been archived or where the archive was unsuccessful
That's basically it in a nutshell. The actual framework of getting done is really the easy part. The hard part is sanitizing everything to make sure this can be done without any security holes. Due to this it is unlikely that I will be storing java script or flash objects as they are difficult to sanitize. Images are mostly secure but you can have some security vulnerabilities there as well. As far as changing stuff and linking to stuff that may not exist I realize that some people in the community had a problem with this but this is far less intensive than trying to do queries to figure out what has/hasn't been archived yet. Not to mention that since pages are cached for a significant amount of time (as far as I'm aware it's a week here) it could be a long time before we check back to see if the archive actually exists. It's because of this that I think just linking to stuff that may not exist is the best option. --Kevin Brown (talk) 00:39, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dispute resolution noticeboard

Have moved this over from the Idea lab to garner some consensus on giving this trial an idea. Part of this comes out of from comments and suggestions on the RFC on dispute resolution.

It seems to me that disputes on Wikipedia are all over the place, as in, they are not where they should be. We have people filing mediation cases for conduct issues, and vice versa. Some users don't seem to realise the best forum for getting their dispute resolved. Others just prefer to go to ANI directly. As a result disputes often get disjointed, and it becomes quite hard for mediators / "helpers" to keep track of, as well as ANI getting clogged up with disputes that sometimes either just don't belong there, or would be better suited at a proper dispute resolution forum. Perhaps, to try and counter this, we could create a new noticeboard, say Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard where we would have users being able to post their enquiry there and get some dispute resolution there on the spot by a mediator, or in disputes where it is evident the matter is detailed or one that does not have a simple resolution, could be referred to a proper forum, say an RFC, RFC/U or mediation. This noticeboard would exclude matters that should automatically go to arbitration, and standard stuff that should be at ANI, like block appeals etc. All other threads that are clearly dispute related that are posted at ANI could be closed, and sent to the disputes noticeboard instead. Additionally we could post a link on all present DR pages with a link to the noticeboard if the user is not 100% certain if that is the correct forum.

While I do see the potential for this noticeboard to get clogged up if not managed properly managed, I think that if correctly managed this idea could help reduce ANI getting clogged up with disputes that just don't belong there, and streamline the dispute resolution process in that we could point disputes in the right direction as opposed to being posted in 10 different places before finding the correct one. It could also help resolve low-level disputes, and nip them in the bud, so to speak.

To keep discussions on the page focused, we could have a similar format to SPI (with mediators or "clerks" to make sure discussions don't get out out of hand, stay civilized) but with users not having to post with funky templates. A simple comment about what the dispute is, who is involved, what has been happening, and then we can point them in the right direction, or get some basic DR underway. While I realise this is a new idea, I don't see any harm in giving it a trial go. ANI is far too clogged up nowadays with disputes that don't belong there, and disputes are often all over the place. Some forums for DR nowadays (WQA being a good example) work poorly and I think giving this idea a go might work. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but at least we will have given it a go. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 23:37, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds like a bloody good idea. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:39, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support. —[d'oh] 00:23, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support + improve WP:DR. A noticeboard is a good idea, but important to make sure it helps and doesn't just try to absorb every other issue. Specialist noticeboards and talk pages have their place too. In some cases it may need to point users to other venues. I made a start on restructuring WP:Dispute resolution a while ago to give much-needed better guidance, which might help too. (Link to draft - feedback welcome). FT2 (Talk | email) 01:23, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The noticeboard is more designed to be a starting point for disputes to go to, as opposed to a replacement for the noticeboards that already exist. That said, some disputes are trivial and a quick discussion or some advice is all that's needed, which would prevent clogging up a noticeboard like ANI, and would also aid in resolving the dispute, as DRN would be watched by those that actually resolve disputes (or learning to) as opposed to ANI. It's a specialised noticeboard for a specialised problem. There are other times where new users just aren't aware of basic policies and need these explained, ie, they file a medcab case because a user keeps removing their unsourced info from an article. The main aims of this noticeboard are to a) Help keep track of disputes b) Act as a starting point for most disputes in the resolution process, ensuring they actually get directed to the best forum where they can be addressed properly and c) Aid in resolution of small disputes and trivial matters such as examples I listed above. It's designed to be a central point for the DR process, not a replacement for the existing processes. WQA has some severe issues, as most matters that get sent there end up with parties slinging mud at each other. Perhaps WQA could be marked historical with disputes starting at DRN and either finding quick resolution or referred to RFC/U. This way we can also keep discussions civilised and properly address disputes that have genuine issues, but nip in the bud "this user reverted my edit/I don't like them" type disputes that we too often see at WQA. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 03:03, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support. This makes sense. DR is policy and next to RS, NPOV, and BLP is the most common and most disruptive part of Wikipedia. (While we're at it we should get rid of Content noticeboard and maybe merge this eventually with Wikiquette Noticeboard, which is a giant waste of finger-pointing time). The board would work to help navigate all aspects of disagreements and complex issues. It could be staffed by mediators and focus on compromise and building consensus. It would be an ideal complement to multi-factoral debates which don't fit neatly at any one board, but without necessitating an RfC. A good idea. User:Ocaasi c 03:46, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Question. Does this proposal differ substantially from formal mediation? Maybe it just makes mediation more prominent as a dispute-resolution opportunity? —Tim Pierce (talk) 03:49, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. This noticeboard is not designed to replace any of the major dispute resolution processes (except perhaps WQA) but to complement the existing processes, clarify the disputes, resolve little ones that referring to a different process would be a waste of time or unnecessary, and point users in the right direction as to where the best place to sort out the dispute is, as currently, and often, disputes get sent to the wrong place. This noticeboard would aim to fix that. A noticeboard monitored by those who have experience in DR, getting little disputes resolved quickly, and referring others to the correct forum for resolution. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 03:55, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have submitted a rough draft of the noticeboard. It is at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard. I still haven't finished off the edit notice yet. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 14:42, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support Although the existing noticeboards suffer from understaffing, I would still support this if traffic could be redirected from ANI. That will take merciless clerking, however, so I hope volunteers will be willing to step up to the plate. Skomorokh 15:47, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Is there/could there be a technical way to move a thread to a different venue with only a click? (I'm thinking user-enabled, to help volunteers.) Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 15:52, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know of any current thread-moving tool, but it would be both feasible (going on the way Twinkle expedites multiple edits to different pages in the deletion process with a single click) and to me welcome, if you can find someone to code and maintain it. Skomorokh 16:06, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(Reply to Skomorokh) - I'm hoping that with this noticeboard admins will direct stuff that doesn't belong at ANI but does belong at the dispute noticeboard, to this noticeboard. It will be partly up to clerks to monitor ANI, partly up to admins to move threads there. There has to be a way in script to move pages from one page to another. I'll have a look into it. I know there's a script that does voting on AFD, I'll see if I can modify it to have it move sections. Or there might be a way a bot can move sections that are tagged with a certain template, say, {{move to DRN}}, to the disputes noticeboard. Will try to get some input on this. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 23:54, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Seems reasonable and worth a try. I'd love to have comments segregated into Involved and Uninvolved sections and have the clerk be able to enforce this. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:59, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question Looking at the present state of WP:ANI, what proportion of the threads there would you envisage ought to start at the dispute resolution noticeboard in future? Most of the discussions revolve around inter-editor disputes – would this noticeboard swallow most of ANI? Skomorokh 16:13, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • If that meant that ANI did a better job of handling admin issues, which in my experience it handles very poorly, that would be a bonus. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:56, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Skomorokh, stuff that is still within the scope of ANI would stay at ANI. Stuff like sockpuppetry, block evasion, edit warring etc, stays at ANI. Other stuff is to the discretion of admins and clerks as to whether to move it over to DRN. It's not going to be 100% clear right off the bat. Our aim should be to encourage users with content and conduct disputes that does not fit within ANI's scope (stuff that would normally go to WQA, RFC, third opinion) to DRN to assist in the clarifying what the actual dispute is to make it easier to resolve, what the best forum for resolution is, or in limited circumstances providing resolution on the spot. Stuff is still going to get posted to ANI that probably belongs at DRN. It will take time to get familiar with what should be moved to DRN and what shouldn't, but like I said it's worth a go. We can learn as we go along. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 23:54, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. At least it's worth a try. Two suggestions: make it clear that other DR venues should not require attempting to resolve the issue here first (since it may only be a place where you get told where to go next), and make sure the format of the page does not lend itself unduly to just posting someone's name in a flaming manner (like using it to post the names of users one doesn't like; in other words, there should be some indication of a dispute, not just a name or list of names). --Tryptofish (talk) 18:57, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • In regards to your first point, no, if a dispute clearly belongs at mediation, a user does not have to go to DRN first. Other issues, sure. If the user feels that the DR avenue they have selected is best, they can use it. This comes with two caveats. One, if a user files a dispute on a page, and it does not belong there, they can be directed to DRN to find the best forum, and two, what the dispute about is should be clear. If, on the page they posted the dispute, it is not clear what the dispute is, they could also be directed to DRN. The main aims of this noticeboard are to a) Have the topic of disputes clearly clarified, to aid in resolution and b) Ensure that disputes are sent to the right forum. So, while using DRN will not be required before other DR forums, but it is recommended, especially if it is not clear who/what is in dispute, or where it should go to, in the case of mixed content-conduct issues.
    • In regards to your second point, with having clerks patrol the page, unlike WQA at present, the aim is to not have this sort of behaviour allowed. No longer will these sort of noticeboards be a place to flame users, rather, it will be the first location to bring up new disputes in regards to legitimate conduct issues, discussed in a civilised manner, as well as content issues, also in a civilised manner. Clerks will not be civility police, but bad conduct will not be tolerated. We've dealt too long with flaming at places like WQA and ANI, and it does not help resolve the issues. Time to make a change for the better. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 23:54, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Very cautious support The idea is pretty good, but it's also delicate. We have to balance helping new users with not creating a new layer of bureaucracy or adding an additional venue to forum-shop at. Also, clerking/mediating is reasonable, but good mediators are not every user, and making it excessively formal like ArbCom only makes dispute resolution take longer. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 23:11, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • The noticeboard's main aims are to move disputes away from ANI where they don't belong, and disputes where the situation or scope is not clear, to this noticeboard, for clarification and direction to the best place for resolution. Forum shopping, not allowed, which would be enforced. I agree that bureaucracy is bad, and that allowing everyone to clerk would not be the best idea. Perhaps the user could demonstrate some experience with dispute resolution in order to clerk? We don't want to make the process to bureaucratic, but at the same time need to ensure the people directing users to other DR forums actually know what they are doing. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 23:54, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support and highly encourage editors who make posts at the more specialized boards (NN, AN*, 3RR, BLPN, etc.) that are less experienced to come here first. Obviously if an established editor creates a thread at those other locations, they know what they are doing and don't need to come here to get their post at the other location. I can think of 30 or so threads in the past few weeks on ANI that should have been resolved elsewhere. Hasteur (talk) 20:31, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Sure, experienced users don't have to post here first if they know exactly which forum to take the dispute to. This noticeboard is not designed to be an extra hoop people have to jump to, it is more designed as a mail sorter. Clarify what the dispute is and what needs to be resolved, and direct them to the best forum for resolution. With the two caveats I listed above. If a user files a dispute at a DR forum and it's the wrong place, they can be directed to discuss the dispute at DRN, two the dispute needs to be clarified in a way that is clear for helpers to aid in resolution. Otherwise it might have to be sent here. If an RFC/U is posted with the user stating "User Y keeps reverting my edits, I don't like it" etc, then sure, that needs to go to DRN. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 23:54, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Wikipedia:DISPUTE#Ask_for_help_at_a_relevant_noticeboard should be updated accordingly, the last line of Wikipedia:DISPUTE#For_urgent_situations, should also be emboldened in some way with a link to the new noticeboard. The Helpful One 00:01, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • The relevant DR pages will need to be updated if consensus for this idea goes ahead, but I want to wait until that first. We might need to also analyse where users who have the disputes find the forums they go to, and see if there's a way to direct them to the new noticeboard if they're unsure of the best forum. See my above comments. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking....
  • Support — but jokingly oppose as it'll reduce the overall drama level at WP:ANI and therefore hurt sales at my Torch and Pitchfork Emporium. --slakr\ talk / 00:07, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Not dealing with this much, I don't have much of an opinion. I'd just like to point out that this is the second SUPPORTed noticeboard on this page right now, and we have a good-many noticeboards out there already. I just hope that the maintainers will do their best to advertise this board, and will have the guts to shoot it if the time comes. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 00:34, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - This is an awesome idea. There are numerous times when I find a content dispute that has been brought to a noticeboard (especially ANI) and I've directed people to WP:DR. Being able to direct someone to an actual board would be much better than just a policy page (especially since they've already reached out to one noticeboard, they'd be more inclined to try another). I might even try my hand at helping support such a board. -- Atama頭 16:48, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support proposal is reasonable and well-formulated. Would be useful and helpful to new & experienced WP users alike.--JayJasper (talk) 17:02, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - useful board.Anthem 19:11, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. A reasonable proposal that could help things, and seems unlikely to harm anything; worth trying, at least. 28bytes (talk) 20:32, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Summarised proposal

It seems to me like there is a fair bit of consensus to giving this idea a go and seeing how it will work. So we are entirely clear on the functions of this noticeboard, I have compiled a summary of what the noticeboard would do, and what noticeboards it would replace, and a summary of how it would function. Comments on the summary are welcome.

  1. This noticeboard would primarily be used for users to post a brief summary of the dispute/issue, and can either get some on the spot resolution by a "clerk" (I use that term sparingly) or mediator in situations where it is either a small dispute, a trivial one, or one that resolving on the spot as opposed to referring to a proper forum would be a waste of time (see examples above). In disputes where it is evident the matter is detailed or one that does not have a simple resolution, could be referred to a proper forum, say an RFC, RFC/U or mediation. This noticeboard is not designed to replace all other DR noticeboards, except to absorb, as a trial, the sorts of comments that would go to WQA and Content noticeboard. This noticeboard would not be mandatory to use, as in, it would not be a "hoop" people have to go through to pursue other dispute resolution. This would come with two caveats. One, if a user files a dispute on a page, and it does not belong there, they can be directed to DRN to find the best forum, and two, what the dispute about is should be clear. If, on the page they posted the dispute, it is not clear what the dispute is, they could also be directed to DRN. The reasons for this are to a) Have the topic of disputes clearly clarified, to aid in resolution and b) Ensure that disputes are sent to the right forum to ensure resolution is actually possible.
  2. Update - A trial would be undertaken to implement the noticeboard in two stages. In stage one, discussions on WQA and the content noticeboards would still occur on those noticeboards, but a notice would be posted on the pages to suggest DRN as an alternate forum. This could be used to parallel the good and bad aspects of the new noticeboard, and compare with the good and bad aspects of existing noticeboards. This trial would last a month, and at the end of the month a discussion would take place outlining the results of the first trial. Stage two would involve the WQA and Content noticeboards closed, with posts directed to the Dispute resolution noticeboard. This aspect of the trial would also last a month, and the main purpose of this trial is to assess what would things be like if these boards were permanently closed. I've proposed this idea as a) Content noticeboard deals with largely the same issues and b) WQA at the moment has some severe issues, as most matters that get sent there end up with parties slinging mud at each other. While I realise that this is quite a major change, I feel that giving this idea a shot is worth a go. The new noticeboard would have little effect if users could go to WQA and still have shouting matches. Conduct disputes at DRN would aim to be civilized, with while this not being "policed", will be enforced. There is a difference between expressing one's opinion and calling someone an asshat. Resolution at DRN for these sorts of disputes would either find quick resolution, or being referred to RFC/U. This way we can also keep discussions civilised and properly address conduct that has genuine issues, but nip in the bud "this user reverted my edit/I don't like them" type disputes that we too often see at WQA. While WQA is a high traffic noticeboard, it also is deeply flawed, and something needs to be done to still address valid conduct issues, but prevent the cesspit that WQA has become, and I propose this noticeboard, which would be monitored by mediators and "clerks" (I hate that word) who have demonstrated some experience in DR to ensure discussions don't get out of hand, offer advice and point people in the right direction in terms of the best avenue for further dispute resolution. At the end of this trial, results would be compared to what we found in the first trial, and a discussion would take place outlining the results of both trials and the best course of action moving forward.
  3. Disputes that do not belong at ANI would be closed, and redirected to DRN. While severe and urgent conduct issues do belong at ANI, like as I posted above, a lot that ends up at ANI does not belong there. While it may take some time to get a hang of what belongs at ANI in terms of disputes and what does not, a main aim of the board to reduce clogging up ANI with disputes that do not belong there. Additionally, disputes posted at incorrect forums (for example only conduct issues being presented at a mediation case) could be sent to DRN for clarification as to what the dispute is, and how to resolve it.
  4. Traffic at Wikipedia:Editor_assistance/Requests that involves content and conduct disputes would also be directed to DRN. While a lower traffic noticeboard, this noticeboard is not really designed for dispute resolution, more so for assistance and questions about editing.

There are further details on the proposal further up the page, feel free to review that as well, as it has a bit more information as to the details of this proposal. The dispute resolution noticeboard is most designed to act as a mail sorter, resolve small issues on the spot, direct larger and more complex issues to the most appropriate forum for resolution, and ensure that discussions stay civilised and reasonable. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 13:40, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support - what an excellent idea. Without getting to arbcom-formal, perhaps a simple structural thing like "Your complain needs to be 300 words or less, and must include diffs of alleged behaviour" or something (with help given to people, I guess; maybe 'should include'), would help things get more expeditiously disposed of. Either way, I think this is a great idea--and anythingt hat lances the boil that is WQA would be great. Admin involvement needed, of course; one of WQA's failings is that there's no teeth, just people yelling. → ROUX ₪ 08:46, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • That's a really good idea. I think being a little more lax on content disputes would be OK. The main issues with content disputes at present are either the scope and details of the content dispute being unclear, or the dispute being posted at the wrong forum, so this noticeboard aims to help resolve small issues but point larger ones to the proper forum for resolution. That said, discussions on the page should be short, regardless of content or conduct issues. Perhaps a word limit could work, especially for conduct disputes. In regards to "teeth", I do see the need for some enforcement of reasonable discussion, as opposed to the yelling and bickering that goes on at WQA. Perhaps the mediators/"clerks" that patrol the page can do what they need to do to keep discussions civilised, failing that notify users they need to keep things civil etc, and failing that close the discussion and refer that matter to an RFC/U or ANI? I'm really not sure on this part. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 10:39, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - As before. -- Atama頭 10:09, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I had come her thinking, "not another bloody noticeboard", but saw the note about interim folding in two noticeboards whose briefs overlap and am cheered up immensely. I approached this problem from a different way and this is much better. Is it too late to add Wikipedia:Third opinion to be marked (for the interim) historical? It is a fairly low traffic broad with a somewhat nebulous brief, whose roles I feel overlap with WQA and also RfC in some way? Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:36, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Added to the list, I had been thinking about adding it and it is quite low traffic. Also added a clause about redirecting conduct and content disputes from Wikipedia:Editor_assistance/Requests to here, as while somewhat a low traffic noticeboard, the issue we have here is disputes spread out everywhere. While I agree consolidating everything together is a bad idea, the main purpose of this board is to fix small issues, direct others to the best forum for resolution. If managed well, I can't see this board turning into another ANI. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 10:46, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support this seems like a good step forward for dispute resolution, hopefully it'll take some of the drama away from ANI. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 10:56, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overall, I like this for the reasons I already stated above. I'm ambivalent, however, about going so far as trial-ing those other boards as historical. So long as the trial is clearly spelled out, in advance, as being brief, with a pre-defined end date, and leaves open the possibility of promptly re-opening the other boards, then I can Support, but I'd be very wary without that caveat. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:33, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • The noticeboards will have an initial trial of closure for say, two months, sufficient time to sort out any teething problems with the transition (One month might be insufficient) and yes, if the noticeboard turns out to be a total failure then we could re-open the old noticeboards. That's why there will be a trial, it's something that has never been done before so we need to see how it goes. I feel that if managed well this noticeboard could work quite well, but we have to give it a go and see first. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 22:00, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • Reading the discussion since my last comment, I now have to Oppose closing the other boards during the trial. Certainly, two months is way too long. I still support the overall idea of the trial, but not that aspect of it. I've thought carefully about the argument that we need to prevent users from forum-shopping from one place to another, but that is not a valid reason to close the existing boards. In fact, if one really wants to test the hypothesis that this new board will be an improvement—and testing that hypothesis is exactly what the trial should aspire to accomplish—then the best way to do that is to leave all existing boards open. That way, we can actually collect data on whether the new board does or does not accomplish what it proposes with respect to cutting down on subsequent forum-shopping, as well as data about whether cases that originate at the new board get resolved more efficiently than do cases that start out somewhere else. Closing the other boards skews the trial to give an advantage to the proposal, and we shouldn't do that. Depending on the outcome of the trial, there could subsequently be a separate RfC about closing other venues. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:22, 6 June 2011 (UTC
        • We could perhaps do a trial of all noticeboards that exist at present just encourage traffic to be posted at DRN, and offer it as an alternative to the existing noticeboards, and see how it goes. After this trial we could assess the results, then do a second trial with the noticeboards closed and discussions directed to DRN. This way we can gether data on the successes of the noticeboard without skweing results. I've updated the proposal accorcingly. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 01:33, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
          • Thanks, that update is a significant improvement. With the understanding that "phase two" of the trial will, of course, depend upon the results of "phase one", I am now comfortable Supporting the proposal in full. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:19, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Why is this here instead of the already open RFC? I've already commented there and don't care enough to reiterate myself.

  • There's a fallacy here that the dispute issues WP has are due to lack of organization or can be fixed due to reorganization. Remember in the midst of WP-this and WP-that, there are but five pillars Read through this mess if you think organization, or admins instead of (mere) editors facilitating resolution is the issue.
  • The issue, vis-a-vis civility is lack of consensus. Without consensus, you can rearrange deck chairs all you want and it doesn't matter.
  • Clerk and procedures and all that are contrary to one of the pillars. The "cure" could easily be worse the problem.
  • Disputes occur because when a POV pushing editor uses suspect RS engages and edit wars, sometimes on BLP, with other editor(s) that they're insulting ... which dispute board does that go to? Gerardw (talk) 23:02, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hi Gerard. Thank you for your comments here. To respond to each of your points
      1. I realise that there is an already open RFC, and I left comments there as well. This proposal came out of an idea I got from reviewing the RFC, mainly, a lot of disputes end up at ANI, or a miscellany of other boards that they don't belong at, and as a result it is somewhat harder to a) Keep track of issues and b) Ensure they're actually posted at the right forum. There are the five pillars, but most people that have a dispute won't go and read the five pillars, or at times even read WP:DR. Most just go to ANI for content, WQA for conduct. Both forums turn into a shouting match. While I realise this would be a major change, I feel the major consensus at present is that there is an issue, and it needs to be addressed. This is my proposed resolution.
      2. Consensus will generally form from undertaking dispute resolution. Or it will not. Dispute resolution has to be tried first. But a major barrier to actually resolving disputes at times is incivility. It's quite hard to resolve the issues at hand if people are calling each other asshats. It works at MedCom, I feel it could work on this noticeboard.
      3. I'm not a big fan of the clerks idea either. That said, ArbCom has clerks, who also enforce good conduct on discussion pages, and it seems to largely work. I'm not suggesting that "clerks" of this noticeboard will hold any official role, their task would only be to ensure discussions stay reasonable and focused on the issues at hand, and help direct complex queries to a targeted DR forum, ie an RFC, RFC/U or mediation.
      4. That sort of issue would be posted to the noticeboard, a brief summary of the issues would be posted. It seems like that example you present is mainly a conduct issue, so an RFC/U would be the best avenue, and if edit warring was active, referred to 3RR. Once the conduct issues are resolved, the sources could be discussed on the article talk page. This noticeboard is not designed to resolve all disputes. It's designed to help discuss them to figure out exactly what is going on, resolve minor ones and recommend the best avenue to resolve larger, more complex ones. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 23:37, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Conditional support: i) not replacing any existing boards to begin with; if it works well enough that other boards become defunct, great, but don't force it. ii) minimal formality. No "clerks" or requirements of diffs, etc. The main objective should be to help newcomers figure out how to handle a dispute (probably boilerplate responses will evolve as the WP:helpdesk has) and point them in the right direction. It's fine if it evolves a little more formality in response to need, but starting with that is a bad idea. Keep It Simple. Rd232 talk 23:20, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Part of the issue with not moving traffic from other noticeboards is that if a user is not satisfied with a response at one noticeboard, they can simply go back to the other noticeboards and post the same issues all over again. I'm not suggesting that suggestions on DRN should be final, but a user shouldn't be allowed to bring up a trivial conduct dispute matter, be told it's not an issue, and have them raise it again on WQA. My points stand in regards to the idea of clerks. They're designed to assist and keep discussions focused. In content disputes, sure, diffs maybe not required. For conduct, important to have diffs. Otherwise people could post anything they like on the noticeboard without substantiating evidence. The new board is designed to reduce these sorts of reports, as I've listed above, as opposed to increasing them. Helping out new users is important, but this needs to be balanced with the potential for the board to be used by anyone that has a beef with another editor. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 00:16, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Comment, Whilst the DRN is, at worst, a harmless idea and a best a brilliant one, closing WP:3O, even for a trial, is completely uncalled for and unneccessary. I don't believe there is, or has ever been, any consensus to scrap or even to substantially change it - 3O works, it's a great way of getting a dial-out consensus to a low visibility topic area and finding solutions to problems which couldn't really be aired without a fully fledged RFC. Volunteers there tend to be well informed and genuinely helpful (myself excluded of course) and the project operates with a remarkable level of efficiency (admittedly in part due to the low traffic). It would be a crying shame to shut it down for an unspecified trial period - if anything we should take this as an oppurtunity to redirect more traffic to 3O (or at least inform them of the discussion). I'm happy to support if we strike that off the proposal. Bob House 884 (talk) 23:37, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I do like the proposal - I'm sure we've all been in situations where we've had a dispute and just thought "where the heck do I post this?" and a board where you can just post any problem and have it sorted to the right noticeboard seems like a great idea. A possible problem may be keeping disputant from following the poster straight over to DRN and creating a shouting match before anyone can shift it - we can see if that materialises. One issue I'd be interested in seeing in the trial is the impact of having designated clerks deal with the 'cases' compared to just letting anybody do it. There are pros and cons for each but it's perhaps something that can be investigated. I am now happy to support the proposal. Regards, Bob House 884 (talk) 00:30, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It wouldn't be formal, but users would need to demonstrate at least some knowledge or experience in the DR process in order to direct users to the proper forum. While this adds a layer of bureaucracy, it would also help ensure brand new users don't direct equally new users to mediation for a conduct dispute. I don't see major harm in letting anyone give advice and help, but actually closing a discussion (unless plainly unhelpful) and moving the dispute to different forum, would best be done by someone who is familiar with DR processes. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 00:55, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support. A great idea, as I've mentioned before, centralized and staffed by mediators and policy generalists. No need to ditch 3O, but WQA and content noticeboard have seen their days come and go. Worth clarifying that DRN is not the place to blame everybody, but to lay out issues and see where discussion should focus. Ocaasi t | c 03:26, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Seems reasonable and worth a try. I still think that comments should be segregated into Involved and Uninvolved sections and have the clerk be able to enforce this. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:52, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The mess WQA sometimes becomes has been accurately described and such a noticeboard would hopefully be better "staffed" and provide results instead of fueling further uncivil dispute. Guoguo12 (Talk)  19:46, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

appearance of scientific names in lead of species articles listed at their common names

I've created Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Biology#Consensus_how_scientific_names_are_displayed_in_the_lead_of_species_articles_listed_under_common_names to get an idea of whether we should streamline. Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:20, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Default edit summaries

Per a consensus discussion here to implement default edit summaries in the form of dropdown boxes Rd232 and I have been working on a script to do this. The script now seems pretty complete and I would appreciate some more testers making use of it. :)

My question is; what is the next step? Can this be added directly to common.js? or is this better as a gadget (and enabled by default)? We have approval for the idea, I just need approval on the technical aspects. (FWIW I prefer the gadget option because this allows people to disable it). --Errant (chat!) 09:04, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I loaded the script, but when I choose "Reply" - my edit summary is " - Replay", is there a need for the hyphen or space? The Helpful One 10:52, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, I can remove that. The script is adopted from another Wiki so has some holdovers from there. Just about any tweak is possible at this stage :) --Errant (chat!) 19:37, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

See also, User_talk:NuclearWarfare#Make prompting for a missing edit summary the default  Chzz  ►  09:22, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You may want to look at some hacking in my monobook.js that makes a half-hearted stab at replacing the section summary E.G. /* Default edit summaries */ if you have started a new section. Rich Farmbrough, 18:57, 5 June 2011 (UTC).[reply]

I noticed Wikipedia:Please use fullurl and, even though I think it may be outdated (as is mentioned on the talk page), it shows how fullurl can make really simple, clean diff and search url code. What if WP were to provide a fullurl code between to article versions on a diff page, or at the top of a search page? Surely it is better than bare URLs? Below is an example from that page. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 11:21, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

[{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}]
Links to edit this page: [7]
Cf. User:TFOWR/easyDiff2.js. Ucucha 12:01, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've noticed that an increasing number of sites have facebook twitter icons which when clicked on put on link on you relevant profile or create a tweet. Would is be useful for every WikiPedia page to have such a button? As an example have a look at Liverpool Echo when a user writes a comment the sytem can be set up to past that comment to Facebook and create a tweet with a link back to the article. Seems good PR as well as usefull.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 15:21, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I thought about the same thing as well. Also, maybe let users log in using their Facebook account. Wikipedia has a shortage of female editors and women rule social networking so might be a great way to attract some new editors. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:14, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This has been suggested quite frequently recently, see e.g. this or this discussion and the links there. As a logged-in user, you can install User:TheDJ/Sharebox for yourself, but it appears that many users would find such icon blocks too intrusive to to be turned on by default. For Signpost stories, we added unobtrusive "Share this" dropdown menus a while ago (example - see top right).
Regards, HaeB (talk) 19:21, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What would the purpose of echoing your edits onto Twitter and Facebook be, other than for canvassing purposes? The Mark of the Beast (talk) 20:41, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You would not be echoing your edits, just articles you chose though might interest you friends.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 20:50, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sharebox is a script that reorders your toolbox. It adds new buttons that make it easier to mail, print or share an article on Facebook or another linksharing service. You must have an account to add Sharebox to the sidebar. See User:TheDJ/Sharebox for more information. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 23:23, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

User:TheDJ/Sharebox sounds great but I cannot get it to work?--Kitchen Knife (talk) 10:55, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What browser are you using? ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 19:26, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Facebook integration already exists in MediaWiki, and is used on Wikia. Someone brought it up on Jimbo's talk page recently and he supports Facebook for Wikipedia. Just pointing it out. I don't think we should be a social site, I hate social sites, but linking to social sites will increase readership and editing. People wonder why we aren't getting new editors, maybe it's that Web 2.0 is old-school for most people now, and Wikipedia is hovering around Web .7 ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 20:57, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What sort of editing Wikipedia will get from integrating Facebook needs to be considered before any action is taken. My guess is that since Facebook is for socialization and similar activities, and not for "scholarly" activities such as writing an encyclopedia, the majority of edits will be of no benefit at best. The worst case (and likely) scenario is that such links will attract Facebook trolls, fans, and POV pushers to Wikipedia. That's something the editors dealing with vandalism don't need. Rilak (talk) 02:12, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Totally agree. The Mark of the Beast (talk) 03:21, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Er... and using Wikipedia in schools... we'll get school-children editing their schools pages ... and abusing their friends and teachers... Oh no! It already happened! … It's not like Wikipedeans now are such a "neutral" bunch (see ANI, ARBCOm, block log, AIV etc), and it's not like there aren't many many links form FB to WP already. While I have great qualms about putting Fb and Twitter links on WP (and got soundly trouted for putting Google links on pages needing refs myself, although consensus later moved) I don't think that thinking of FBers as "the great unwashed" is either helpful, accurate or true to the spirit of the project. Rich Farmbrough, 19:08, 5 June 2011 (UTC).[reply]
Except that school kids are currently studying research techniques and materials relevant to different articles, so there's a potential gain (for us and them). The abuse is a problem for allowing anyone to edit (not suggesting we get rid of that), so there's not really a net loss there. FB does not teach anyone how to research stuff (as many pyramid schemes and trojans I have to point out to my friends, quite the opposite), so there is no potential gain. Ian.thomson (talk) 20:08, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note that Facebook mirrors Wikipedia. Rich Farmbrough, 19:08, 5 June 2011 (UTC).[reply]

As you say Facebook feeds Wikipedia as in Rose Heilbron what I and the people I'm connected with seems to do on face book is post links to articles, videos etc, lots of external content.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 19:27, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for the same reasons as I opposed it the last two times. Also, Facebook is the antithesis of credibility, and in my opinion, the antithesis of intelligent discourse. Having the icons there would be damaging, I think, and the only reason I can think of people wanting it is that it saves them about a seventh of a second and that 'everyone else is doing it'. Seriously, if you want to link to a Wikipedia article, copy the URL, it's not at all hard. Sven Manguard Wha? 07:50, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Given that most people use their real names on Facebook, I sincerely doubt that this would increase vandalism. If anything, using your real name is more likely to discourage it. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 12:57, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Only if they used their real names when editing on Wikipedia. But since Facebook and Wikipedia aren't linked, we'd only identify them with their IP address. Gary King (talk · scripts) 18:34, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, one of the suggestions is to let users log in using their Facebook accounts. A lot of web sites are starting to do that. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:43, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
How exactly would that work? I mean, in YouTube for example, I can log in with my Google-Mail account. In that case, both accounts are probably hosted on the same service (ie a Google server) (that's just my guess, it might be wrong). How exactly would that work in the case of Wikipedia and Facebook? Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 18:52, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
How that would work essentially is that you log in to Facebook, they tell Wikipedia that you are logged in to your account and your name is "John Smith"; of course, they'd provide a unique ID so that you don't conflict with other "John Smith"s. Gary King (talk · scripts) 18:56, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undecided This might be a good for attracting new editors. However, I would like to see a better developed and more detailed proposal before deciding. I think this could also have a lot of negative issues. Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 19:12, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Opposed to any sort of non-optional, formal integration of the 'Like this!' box variety, for the following reasons (which I've kept quite abstract for the time being):
a) Credibility - connecting to facebook etc. in any overt way detracts credbility from us, especially in academic or professional circles - per Sven
b) Editor ingress - as has been observed, FB already mirrors wikipedia and links to our articles. That means that people are already able to jump from FB to our site, introducing a feature which allowed them to jump back doesnt seem paticularly beneficial in terms of keeping editors.
c) Expert retention - If I'm an expert on an obscure subject and create an article on something which is likely not of much interest to non-experts and come back a month later to see that it still has "0 likes" whilst another article on Will Mellor has thousands of likes, I probably won't bother making another.
d) Commercial reasons don't apply - Most sites, such as newspapers, blogs etc. have commercial motivations behind the FB links and 'tweet this' buttons - they want to draw in more views to earn more money - these reasons don't really apply to us.
e) Lack of techical knowledge needed - Come on, anybody who can edit wikipedia can also copy and paste a URL anyway, we don't need to build a toolbar into the interface to help them do that.
f) Independance - personally, I quite like the idea of having a major site which isn't linked into the 'evil empire' of the day.
They're my (possibly half-baked) thoughts anyway - I may try to expand if this becomes a serious proposal rather than a brainstorm. (Note that I'm completely unopposed to allowing people to choose to include something like this in an alternate skin/JS function/whatever). Regards, Bob House 884 (talk) 19:32, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Nasa's web site[8] integrates with Facebook, Twitter, Digg and many other social networking sites. Can someone show me some evidence that this has caused NASA to lose credibility in academic or professional circles? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:49, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Bob: I don't think anyone's proposing that we add "Like this" buttons to Wikipedia. Instead, I see two proposals: 1) Let readers share articles they find interesting by sharing them on Facebook, Twitter, etc. 2) Let people log in using their Facebook accounts. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:52, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding Nasa, that's a completely different situation. Nasa doesn't have to fight for credibility like we do (they have it and would have to work to lose it, we're gaining it and have to work to not lose what ground we're acquiring), nor do they allow anyone to edit their site. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:56, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Can you explain exactly how letting readers share articles they find interesting with their friends will cause Wikipedia to lose credibility? I don't get it. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:21, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - First, it is disheartening to see the elitist attitude of some of the comments here. It is unfair to assume that we are smarter than others, simply because they involve their friends in their lives, and we anonymously bicker about hyphen usage. Like I said above, I do hate social sites, but that doesn't mean I hate their users. I wanted to point out http://help.wikia.com/wiki/Help:Facebook_Connect as an example of how a MediaWiki site uses the Facebook API. Also, if anything were to happen with "like" buttons, or social bookmarking links, this could be handled through an integrated gadget, so only logged-in users who choose to have to see it. This should help us keep our "street cred". ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 20:35, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have to say I'm not a fan. --Guerillero | My Talk 21:04, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal for a "timeline" layout

First, apologies if this is wildly against policy/misformatted -- not a regular ;) I've noticed a lot of sections have a lot of one sentence paragraphs that go "On [date] thing X happened." one after another. I think adding a CSS style to support a timeline would be easy, and such articles could really benefit from the new formatting (I can't speak as to the wikimarkup side of things). Here's an example of this kind of page: Auction Rate Security#2008 auction failures — Preceding unsigned comment added by Felipeochoa0918 (talk • contribs)

  • Personally, I find "On date X, Y happened" entries to be nothing more than lazy writing. Unless a section is specifically intended to be a timeline, the proper solution is to turn these entries into proper paragraphs. Resolute 16:24, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There was a discussion a while back about some kind of graphic network tool that would make nicer/easier Ahanentafeln (sp?), taxonomies, etc etc. Might be worth digging for that. Rich Farmbrough, 19:00, 5 June 2011 (UTC).[reply]

Some articles in quieter backwaters tend to build up a timeline peacemeal, because an editor will see some news on the subject in a source, and add a few words covering just that news, then a few months later another similar edit is made, over and over again - so the article gradually accumulates a chronological sequence of awkward bullet-points even when it's a subject which would be better off with a single, carefully-written paragraph. I'm wary of encouraging the development of such timelines when a better solution would often be to invest slightly more effort in writing a single block of prose. bobrayner (talk) 23:25, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

For the relevant essay, see WP:Proseline. —Mike Allen 01:39, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Are you referring to something like this currently used on the Commandant of the Marine Corps article?:
James F. AmosJames T. ConwayMichael HageeJames L. JonesCharles C. KrulakCarl Epting Mundy, Jr.Alfred M. Gray, Jr.Paul X. KelleyRobert H. BarrowLouis H. Wilson Jr.Robert E. Cushman, Jr.Leonard F. Chapman Jr.Wallace M. GreeneDavid M. ShoupRandolph M. PateLemuel C. Shepherd Jr.Clifton B. CatesAlexander VandegriftThomas HolcombJohn H. Russell, Jr.Ben Hebard FullerWendell Cushing NevilleJohn A. LejeuneGeorge BarnettWilliam P. BiddleGeorge F. ElliottCharles HeywoodCharles Grymes McCawleyJacob ZeilinJohn Harris (USMC)Anthony GaleArchibald HendersonFranklin WhartonWilliam Ward Burrows ISamuel Nicholas


Its not the simpest thing to use I admit but it does work.--Kumioko (talk) 16:47, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There's a very useful timeline, that unfortunately suffers from formatting problems (as well as using whole years rather than specific dates) at Timeline of Presidents of the United States. Before joining Wikipedia, I'd independently constructed something similar on MS Excel (to show how many former and future U.S. Presidents coincided with any president's term), but I haven't figured out if there's a good solution for this page. —— Shakescene (talk) 21:30, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Page moves from userspace

Proposal: allow editors the option to suppress the creation of a redirect when moving a page out of userspace into mainspace (which would normally be a userspace draft-type page). That's probably harmless, is a common task, and prevents useless cross-namespace redirects. It's also a task which will likely become more common when the limitations on non-autoconfirmed users creating articles goes live, since many will be creating userspace drafts instead. Rd232 talk 02:20, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • I know nothing about the technicalities of this while still not allowing suppression of redirects with other page moves. If it is technically feasible though, I would support it. It seems quite silly for people to have to request deletion of a cross namespace redirect that they didn't want in the first place. LadyofShalott 03:38, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's a good idea, but it widens a loophole. Moving pages from userspace means that any editor can easily create an article and get around WP:NPP. Suppressing redirects would make it less likely that an admin is going to come across it. I don't know if that's a reason to vote it down, I'm just pointing it out. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 04:38, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Back to the question: if/when the NPP loophole for moves from userspace is fixed (Template:Bugzilla), do we want this to happen? Rd232 talk 10:26, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

More discreet banners

Hi, I would like to suggest that the banners that appear at the top of so many articles ("needs additional citations", "neutrality is disputed", etc. etc.) are made smaller (while still being noticeable). The ones we have now are better than a few years ago, but they are still big, blocky and ugly, and give the impression that most of Wikipedia is in a perpetually broken state. 86.181.172.159 (talk) 03:08, 6 June 2011 (UTC).[reply]

That's because most of Wikipedia is in a perpetually broken state. They are big and ugly for a reason; readers (the people these articles are written for) must be made aware when there are problems with articles, particularly when those problems have to do with reliability and sourcing. Their large ugliness is a feature, not a bug. → ROUX ₪ 03:29, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yea, god forbid we attribute one iota of intelligence to our readers. Gotta watch out for there best interests and well-being, don't you know? Can't have people reading things that we don't like, after all.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 03:39, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
IN addition to this I would like to suggest that we calrify the rules of using some of these templates to say they are not needed on stubs. If an article is a stub there is almost no reason to put a Cleanup, expand, wikify or several others on the article. These are self evident by the class of the article. Some such as Ref needed, ref improve or the BLP tags would and should still be allowed though IMO. --Kumioko (talk) 16:42, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You can already use {{multiple issues}} to merge these banners together. I agree that they should be smaller, at least for me as they are just a nuisance when I'm trying to read an article, so I shrink them with this script. Gary King (talk · scripts) 20:04, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You know Gary thats an excellent point. Rather than trying to choose a one size fits all scenario why don't we see about adding that script as a preference Gadget that allows people to decide for themselves if they want the banners smaller. Some may and some may not and either way is fine but we should be allowing the users to decide how they want to see them. --Kumioko (talk) 20:15, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Certainly at least the POV template should be big. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:16, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You'll probably like this banner I saw the other day: Voyager640 (talk) 08:16, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I love that banner, and I'll be sure to use it on every page I read that doesn't meet Featured Article standards. Regarding my script that I mentioned above called Smaller Templates, all it does is it removes the icon from from these templates, then shrinks the text down to about 75%, and removes the "descriptive" text so only the bold text remains (and it unbolds it), so that you can still read and understand the template fine, but it takes up much less space. Gary King (talk · scripts) 18:33, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I find that banner offensive. People who volunteer their time to this project do not have an obligation to fix every problem they see and often the problems that can be tagged by a person, cannot be fixed by that same person for many reasons. That's for "passive taggers" but more importantly, the people who do most of the "drive-by tagging" are the dedicated new pages and other patrollers, who do a critical, mostly thankless task, and to say that they could remediate the problems in the articles they tag rather than do the tagging is so unrealistic that there's little to say on the matter.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:59, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Your criticism cuts both ways, though. People who create new articles are not obligated to create featured articles right out of the gate. Plastering our articles with all sorts of warnings in the readers faces makes all of us who contribute here look silly, at best. All other maintenance issues are dealt with on the talk page, and for good reason. Readers aren't stupid, and our behaving as though we can't trust them to realize that our content comes with caveats that have been well covered over the previous 10 years is rather insulting to them and to authors and editors. Nobody who is interested in actually improving articles is suggesting that maintenance categories, and the work at clearing the backlogs, should be stopped; the reason that this is a perennial point of discussion is that contributors don't want their contributions besmirched with warning tags, is all. You're asking for consideration, but failing to acknowledge how you're not giving consideration to others yourself.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 00:35, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Let's separate out the template above from what you're saying. Say I agreed with you on all fours. I would still find that template offensive for the same reasons I just gave. That template doesn't make your points, it just attacks with a massive brush the entire cadre of editors who tag any article with any maintenance template whatsoever. Putting that aside, I always find the idea that any reader would be insulted by seeing these templates silly, as if they were directed against them specifically; that's what insults people, not notices on articles they land on that on their face are directed at no person in particular. Meanwhile, you're demonstrably wrong that there aren't large numbers of people who actually aren't aware of the "caveats". We often see users at the help desk here, for example, and in other places all over the net, who have no idea and actually assume our articles consist of vetted content, written by a central authority of experts. But you're right that large numbers of people also do know the general caveats, and it's a far larger percentage than those who don't. But this is a side issue, because the caveats about our content are unspecific and do not make the targeted tags any less important or invalid. People hear that Wikipedia content can be added by anyone and that its unreliable and statements in that vein, but that does not translate to knowing specifics, like that some articles have cited sources and some do not; that articles with lots of inline citations are almost always much more reliable than the reverse of that coin; that if all the sources in an article are primary sources the article is probably POV, and on and on. Articles which are unreferenced, poorly referenced, non-neutral, etc. should not be relied on; people coming to these articles should be told in no uncertain terms—not on the talk page—but right up front, that the article has certain specific problems. Taking the general caveats to the specific to inform the public's reading is only one function. Another is to hope that action is actually taken by someone who cares about the subject; the templates are a guide for suggesting the action that is actually needed, and it won't act to inform but a few if hidden on the talk page. Neutral, balanced, comprehensive, well sourced articles containing no original research need no tags. Until they are well on the path to that stage, flagging problems they actually have is not "besmirching" them.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 04:50, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I assume that none of these comments are directed at me in particular, but just in case, my last comment above was meant to be sarcastic (the first sentence). Gary King (talk · scripts) 19:55, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Preceding Unsigned Comment

It just occurred to me that there isn't really any good reason to have the sinebot add a small-text template instead of just substing in the user's signature, which I'm sure is possible. Of course we would still encourage people to sign their comments, but the small-text message seems to serve no purpose other than singling out newbies and providing negative reinforcement to get people to sign their comments. It's really quite ridiculous, jarring to look at, a strain to the eyes, and WP:BITEingly disruptive. Does anybody know why this was done in the first place? ☻☻☻Sithman VIII !!☻☻☻ 09:31, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No bot could (easily) substitute in your actual signature, but it could guess at your signature (by assuming the default). On the other hand, the bot sometimes gets it wrong. This, I think, is the justification for making it obvious that they didn't add that signature. Whether it needs to be quite so obvious, I'm not sure. - Jarry1250 [Weasel? Discuss.] 09:39, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
How is it bitingly disruptive to try to get someone to sign their comments? I think it's completely appropriate to make it obvious. The biggest danger to me is having a bot that impersonates an editor, by putting in a person's signature and not making it obvious that the person didn't add it themselves. I don't think we should ever have a bot that makes edits that appear to have come from another editor no matter what the reason. -- Atama頭 17:32, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Bot sometimes mistakenly sign comments when people re-add comments by others (i.e. [9]), which is why it (quite properly) uses the "unsigned" template. –xenotalk 18:11, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Formal proposal to put Featured Lists on the main page from 13 June:

A proposal (and poll) is currently in place on Talk:Main Page#Formal proposal to put Featured Lists on the main page from 13 June to have Today's featured list appear on the Main Page each Monday. The proposal will run until 23:59 UTC on Saturday, June 11. — Edokter (talk) — 11:33, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Connecting Wikipedia to Spoken-Web

Hi all,I developed a new site to help and serve the blind or visually impaired community by making the web more accessible to them.

[1]http://www.spoken-web.com Using this site, a person who is blind or who has a visual impairment can hear the full range of any wikipedia article content, provided in a logical, clear, and understandable manner.

I thinking about better ways to connect between Wikipedia articles to spoken-web site. such as a link from any wiki page direct to the spoken version of the article

Benefits:

  1. Up-to-date - The spoken version is been generated on-the-fly, so it always be the most updated one
  2. Faster - The text-to-speech engine is on the client computer
  3. Economical - spoken versions for all 2.8 million articles would not take any space

--Eyalshalom (talk) 15:56, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Disadvantages:

  1. For the meanwhile (money issues) the site availble only in english, and the technology requiered IE browsers and Windows Operation System
  2. Text to speech engines often sound quite... unnatural when they synthesize speech (but there is a solution for this too)

--Eyalshalom (talk) 15:57, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

About

[2]Spoken-Web is a web portal, managing a wide range of online data-intensive content like news updates, weather, travel and business articles for computer users who are blind or visually impaired. The site provides a simple, easy-to-use interface for navigating between the different sections and articles Using the keyboard to navigate, a person who is blind or who has a visual impairment can hear the full range of an article content provided in a logical, clear, and understandable manner.
Spoken-web is non-profit organization. --Eyalshalom (talk) 15:54, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]


  • Spoken Web was founded at 2006 and had wiki ref since 2008.IBM started World Wide Telecom Web project at 2008 and they changed the wiki page (you can see it in the history of the page).

but this is not the point here--Eyalshalom (talk) 18:55, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Show blocked users gadget

Russian Wikipedia has a Gadget to show blocked users, which I've been using for a while.

add

importScriptURI('http://ru.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Gadget-markblocked.js&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript');

to Special:Mypage/Skin.js.

Proposal: import the Gadget, and add it to Preferences as an actual Gadget. Rd232 talk 16:52, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That would be really handy, I usually look at an editor's contributions to see if they're blocked. Seeing it right away would be great. -- Atama頭 17:33, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
How about using User:Gary King/userinfo.js instead (I forked the script from User:PleaseStand/userinfo.js; the original author has been busy and therefore unable to implement bug fixes, updates, etc.), which shows more than just blocked info, but also the user's groups, number of edits, last edited time, etc. The documentation is here. Gary King (talk · scripts) 19:09, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That's good, but it only displays block status when on the user or user talk page. The Russian markblocked script puts a line through a username wherever it appears, if the user is blocked. Rd232 talk 19:23, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, didn't realize that. Y'know, a number of scripts with similar features can probably be combined so that we have fewer gadgets. Gary King (talk · scripts) 19:31, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure that's the case, and that would probably be helpful both in general and in this case (though how the extra complexity of scripts vs fewer scripts would affect maintainability I'm not sure). On a related note, others may be interested in the conversation at MediaWiki_talk:Gadgets-definition#Gadget_tab_structure about restructuring the Gadget tab to be more user friendly. Rd232 talk 19:34, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The scripts don't even have to interact with each other if we don't want them to. They can just be "packaged" together; it's somewhat similar to using importScript once for Twinkle rather than half a dozen times for each of its components (although in that case, each script is dependent on others). Gary King (talk · scripts) 20:00, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
For what its worth I am going to suggest to the AWB developers to line out blocked users as well if AWB is being used to add comments to talk pages. --Kumioko (talk) 20:28, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"line out"? "strike out" or "line through" - pick one :P ... Yes, could be useful addition to AWB. Rd232 talk 21:31, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I oppose that (the AWB thing) as strongly as possible. AWB has no way of sensing when a comment was added; are you seriously suggesting that because a user happens to have accidentally crossed the 3RR line and earned a 24 hour block, you want to strike through every comment that user has ever made? If I see anyone refactoring talk comments in this way, I'll have no hesitation at all in blocking for disruption. – iridescent 21:55, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Irridescent I'm going to assume AGF that you did not just imply that if "the AWB thing" is put into effect by consensus of the Community that you will go around blocking individuals who do it? And as an administrator your "threat" can be seen as trying to intimidate, threaten, and unduly influence future discussion and implementation. Your personal views against this proposal are one thing, your threats of blocking individuals is a little overbearing. A clarification of your opinion and perhaps striking through your threats of blocking may be something you might want to consider as a good faith move right now.Camelbinky (talk) 22:23, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I understood Kumioko to be talking about indicating to AWB users when an editor is blocked, by marking up the text shown to the AWB user (i.e. an equivalent of the JS script). Saving strike-through into Wikipedia is obviously undesirable. Rd232 talk 22:40, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The script is listed at WP:JS, which links to User:NuclearWarfare/Mark-blocked script.js, which links to the Russian one. However I did find that calling up the Russian one did slow page loads down (I could see FF was waiting for ru.wikipedia), so I copied the whole thing to User:Ronhjones/strikeblocked.js and then called that from my monobook.js with an importScript('User:Ronhjones/strikeblocked.js'); - which has improved the page loads.  Ronhjones  (Talk) 22:29, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Cool, thanks. Now how about making this a gadget - or perhaps bundling it with an existing gadget, as Gary King suggested above? Rd232 talk 10:24, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Social Media

It's becoming increasingly clear to me that all Wikipedia articles and photos need a social media share functionality, probably just FB and Twitter, but maybe a "Share This" dropdown if we have to be fair. Thanks for reading and cheers. ~J — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jengod (talk • contribs) 19:46, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I somewhat disagree. Seems like an easier way to attract vandalism. If people truly want to read something, they will search for it and Wikipedia is normally a top search result. The visits should be organic. Encyclopedic information is generally not something that you share in a social manner. Gary King (talk · scripts) 20:02, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I am somewhat on the fence with this one myself. I admit that allowing this type of functionality might draw some attention to the articles I also believe that there would be some significant drawbacks, vandalism being one of them. I do think that it might be interesting to do a test of some to see (maybe pick a couple hundred). I think we need to ask ourselves though what the return on the investment is. What would be gained and lost by doing this and is it worth the investment of time and energy? The foundation has been beating the bushes looking for ways to attract more editors and this could be a way to do that. --Kumioko (talk) 20:23, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Since most people use their real names on Facebook, I doubt very many would be vandalizing articles. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:31, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If "most" people use their real names, does this not mean that there are no mechanisms to ensure that people use their real names? Rilak (talk) 08:45, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Using real names on Facebook and vandalizing articles here are two different things. You can discover a Wikipedia article through a friend on Facebook, then visit the article, then vandalize it. We would never know the user's Facebook name. On a somewhat related note, for about a year now, Facebook has been using Wikipedia's data to create information pages on every single subject. So for instance, in a person's profile if they listed "Cooking" as an interest, and you clicked on Cooking, you'd go to something like facebook.com/topics/cooking which would show the Wikipedia article for Cooking. I don't know how we could use that to draw editors here, but it's a thought. Gary King (talk · scripts) 18:29, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I totally agree with the original poster. That's why I made Wikipedia:Sharebox in the first place. But to implement it everywhere, we need an open and free sharing system that supports multiple social share tools. We can't promote just one or two services, and above that, social sharing services are still very dependent on your country of origin/language in terms of popularity. That's quite a development effort. Not impossible, but will take considerable time none the less. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 20:36, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@AQFK: Especially not BLP articles, if you catch my meaning. =p Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 20:33, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently, the Wiki software already supports this feature. For example, scroll to the bottom of a WikiNews article.[10] There are links for Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, Digg, and several others. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:39, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That's just a template, found here. We can't use the same exact method to implement them here because we'd have to edit every single article and add the template to each one. Gary King (talk · scripts) 18:29, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
mw:Extension:PageNotice might obviate that, if it were installed. Rd232 talk 10:23, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Offensive usernames of blocked sockpupets

Would it be a good idea to hide usernames which attack individuals or groups, or are generally disruptive or offensive ? In particular I wonder whether it might be appropriate to hide the name of this this sockpuppet, simply because if such content was in mainspace or userspace it would be deleted per our policy on attack pages. Would there be technical issues with giving such blocked user's pages generic titles such as "Blocked user" or "Blocked sockpuppet of user x"  ? Although I can't find a Wikipedia template which does it, there are some on other Wikia projects (see, for instance [11]). I am not suggesting that the usernames be changed, simply that they should be replaced by a template. It seems hypocritical that we would delete such content if it was placed anywhere else, yet we allow it to stay clearly visible due to it being part of the user's name. Anthem 19:57, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If the title is a BLP violation or attacks someone I would agree and support this. I would say though that if it just contains a swear word or something that might just offend a few folks or is a general irritation then no. --Kumioko (talk) 20:25, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think if a username just contains a swearword, there's no obvious reason for hiding the name. There should be a case for hiding the username when there is a BLP violation/attack usernames (such as the one linked to), and what might be considered "hate speech" (ie. extremely misogynistic or racist usernames). --Anthem 20:53, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Usernames can be revision deleted from page histories and even user creation logs etc, if necessary. Requests can be made via CAT:REVDEL. Rd232 talk 21:29, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is the presence of the offending username on the user's userpage. --Anthem 21:30, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well in extreme circumstances the user might possibly be renamed (WP:CHU). Note that such accounts will often be tagged with a template which NOINDEXes them (eg {{sockpuppet}}). Rd232 talk 21:52, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, I was thinking it would be simpler to have a template an admin (as opposed to a bureaucrat) could apply. --Anthem 03:20, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There could be a template requesting a rename (modelled on the WP:Edit request system), for bureaucrats to act on, but I'm not sure it's worth it. Rd232 talk 10:22, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome/how to edit template on talk pages

A discussion has been raised on the foundation-l mailing list about welcoming new users to highly trafficked pages regarding helping new users. The point brought up indirectly that I noticed is that we do not have a bot or AWB added a template assisting in talk pages and editing, welcoming IPs and new users on talk pages that offer assistance. Instead, we plaster pages with Projects and class and stub et.al templates. Would anyone care to modify the welcome template to talk pages and not just user talk pages, and can we just add the template at whim as we do other talk pages? Keegan (talk) 06:29, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I hijacked {{hello world}} and adapted it a bit for this purpose. There is a generic {{talk page}} template that has existed for years as well. It's not very friendly, though. --MZMcBride (talk) 06:39, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think {{talk page}} is an excellent header for talkpages, containing a few helpful links but not being overwhelming. I don't understand why you would prefer the basic {{hello world}} template over it. You weren't thinking of adding an abomination such as {{Welcomeg}} were you? I would give my strongest possible oppose to that. Yoenit (talk) 08:36, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The {{talk page}} template is dreadful at addressing the need here - that is, telling completely new users what a talk page is for. Even for those of us who know what it's for, it is yet-another-brown-box-to-ignore, and certainly doesn't stand out.
I note, BTW, that these proposed changes have been reverted without discussion. Charming.
James F. (talk) 09:09, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Adding the standard welcome template is even worse, for it does not even mention talkpages. How is that supposed to help new users? I would be open to an alternative template on top of talkpages, but {{hello world}} is not it. Yoenit (talk)09:17, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(addendum) Also, why are you whining about that revert? A reason is given in the edit summary and it is standard practice following the Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. Yoenit (talk) 09:26, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

{{Talk header}} (for it is he - {{talk page}} is a redirect) has the header This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Foo article. and the first item in the list of information is This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.. That seems to cover the main requirements. As to eye-catching prominence: in a while we'll be able to add CSS specific to new users, so we could (if we wanted) make it all bigger and more eyecatching just for them. In the interim, we could, if we wanted, add a |big=yes parameter to the template to make it So Annoying You Can't Miss It. PS Looking at it through experienced-user eyes is probably not the best judgement of its visibility, since we're used to ignoring those brown boxes to look for the content. Rd232 talk 09:35, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I also think that adding a template of some kind to talk pages should be done to inform out users and if we did it as a standard we could implement it on meta and let it be static without having to add it manually to pages as an edit. IMO we should not be waiting till something goes wrong to tell them not to bicker. Just my opinion. --Kumioko (talk) 23:27, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. The work could be put on the MediaWiki code of the talk page, similar to our warnings and whatnot when you click "edit" but instead be static on the talk page itself.Keegan (talk) 04:58, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There is MediaWiki:Talkpageheader which I think would do the job, but it would be displayed on every single talk page. mw:Extension:PageNotice (referenced in Template:Bug, for per-namespace sitenotices) would provide more control, but isn't currently installed. Rd232 talk 10:14, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I propose that a link to Special:Newpages is added to the interaction section of the sidebar. We currently have recent changes linked, and I think it would be useful to compliment it with pages too. AD 19:19, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've wanted that for months; I think it would help attract more users to start NPP, which until we get the changes implemented we still badly need. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:44, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I wholeheartedly agree; when I used to do NPP, I installed a gadget that displayed new pages in the sidebar because typing it in the search bar every time was annoying. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 03:28, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Couldn't you just put it on your watchlist? Peter jackson (talk) 14:50, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You can't watchlist any of the Special:SpecialPages, nor edit them for that matter. Yoenit (talk) 14:55, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That hadn't occurred to me. My list includes a category & some pages in project space, so I sort of vaguely assumed you could have anything. Peter jackson (talk) 15:21, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Good idea. I'm so used now to tying WP:NEW and hitting the first link on that page that I don't really need it, but I would have appreciated it a few years back.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 22:41, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like a great idea, to me.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 23:03, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I think this would be useful. Killiondude (talk) 23:07, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
How many of the en.wp visitors are looking for special:NewPages ? I never visit it. Doubt my mom does either. The sidebar is precious space and it should be used for the most required or most useful links for ALL readers. I'm not really sure if NewPages qualifies for that. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 16:47, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As User:Fuhghettaboutit mentioned above, new page patrollers rely on it extensively. One more link in the Interaction section isn't going to swamp the sidebar, and it's not as though Special:Newpages is soe off the wall page.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 16:55, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I find the live feed in the sidebar perfectly adequate. See User:TheJosh/Scripts/NewPagePatrol.js. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 17:07, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@TheDJ: how many visitors, if any, are looking for Recentchanges, which has been there forever? AD 17:13, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have no reason to believe a reader would view RecentChanges over NewPages. They could both be presented. I think it would be intriguing to visitors to view new pages being created on Wikipedia. Just because they aren't looking for it now doesn't mean they won't click the link when presented with it. Killiondude (talk) 17:25, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Recent changes is one thing, but let's not forget that the Wikipedia is read by even more people than those who edit and patrol it. The term New Pages is misleading: 80% of 'new pages' are the inapropriate ones that are going to be deleted - do we really want to draw the general readership's attention to them? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 18:20, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
80%? Where'd you get that from? Recent changes is designed for editors, not readers, and contains things like vandalism that we are drawing attention to. New pages is an accurate name, it says exactly what it is. I still don't see any argument against including it when we have Recentchanges there. AD 18:51, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You mean "change bad" is not a good argument here? Say it ain't so! ;)
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 20:09, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Deprecate the term "autoconfirmed" in favour of something meaningful

I just came across the term "autoconfirmed user" (referring to WP:AUTOCONFIRM) and found myself looking at it through newbie eyes and thinking WTF? It's a technical term without any obvious meaning for a newcomer to get a handle on. I propose deprecating its use throughout Wikipedia in favour of "established user" or something which similarly gives a flavour of what the thing being described means. The deprecation would be painless in that old shortcuts etc would work, but terminology in help pages, templates aimed at newbies etc would be rapidly standardised in favour of the new term. Rd232 talk 20:34, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I frankly don't think this is a good idea. "Autoconfirmed" is a very objective term, whereas there's no implication with "established user" that there are a set of criteria which need to be met. In any case, many autoconfirmed users aren't "established" at all, and the term is a subjective overload. --Anthem 21:47, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't exactly call a user of 4 days / 10 edits "established"... --KFP (contact | edits) 22:00, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I tend to agree. "autoconfirmed" is certainly jargon, but it's so well established now that trying to change it seems like unneeded effort to me. Just for the heck of it though, "verified" would be a better choice then "established".
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 21:58, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"well established" isn't much of an argument; no-one stopping oldtimers from using it, the issue is documentation. "Verified" is no good, that's actively misleading in suggesting some kind of verification (=checking) process. Rd232 talk 22:04, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that's where the objections to "established" are coming from as well. There's nothing about being autoconfirmed that makes a user "established". Maybe just dropping the "auto", so that the term is "confirmed", but again I don't really see the point of doing that now. I just think that this ship has sailed.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 22:53, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Autoconfirmed is one of those weird wiki terms, and I personally see no need to change it. We aren't the simple english wikipedia here, people. I'm 99% sure that any newbie (like myself when I was one) gets the idea that autoconfirmed is some sort of status that a user gets automatically after a bit. Besides, what are we going to rename it to, "user with 10 edits and four days experience"? Ajraddatz (Talk) 22:10, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would prefer the term "editor" instead of autoconfirmed. Many other wikis have editor as what autoconfirmed on enwiki is. —Croisés Majestic (sur nous mars) 22:16, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support heartily: Well, maybe I'm very different from other editors, but the whole gamut of Wikipedianese is something I've treated like reading a foreign language text or an alien slang: I just pass over many obscure terms because it would be impossible to read if I had to search for every definition; I just hope I pick up the vocabulary en passant and from context. That meant it was months, even years, before I fully grasped what dab, Prod, autoconfirmed, deprecate, RfA, XfD, RFC, ANI, CSD, FAC, CC-BY-SA, GFDL, etc., etc., meant. Surely there's a better term than "autoconfirmed": the question should rather be what's the best substitute: one that's clear, accurate and reasonably unambiguous. ¶ And, no, "autoconfirmed" doesn't necessarily mean what it says, any more than "Prod" or "Dab" do; to me (instead of being, presumably, a contraction of "automatically confirmed") it means "self-confirmed", which fits the minimum time and edits requirement in only in the vaguest and most indirect way —— Shakescene (talk) 06:47, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It reads intuitively to me, considering what it describes—a techie name for a techie threshold. The alternatives suggested do nothing to make the meaning comprehensible because the only way to do that is if the name states the threshold itself since there's not term for what this is in English, barring a description, and were not going to rename it "four days, ten edit barrier." Accordingly, no matter what the name, in order to learn what it is an unfamiliar user will still have to be told or visit the description page. If we change it, it will also conflict with the identical term used on many other projects; it is the same name used at Commons, at Wiktionary, at Wikinews, etc.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 22:33, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Respectfully, I disagree that it's a "techie threshold" and therefore doesn't require explaining to non-techies. Autoconfirmed status represents a set of wiki privileges (uploading files, renaming pages, editing semiprotected pages) that new users regularly want. New users regularly come to #wikipedia-en-help asking why they can't do these things, and the answer -- "your account isn't autoconfirmed yet" -- doesn't really help them understand. If we were coming up with this feature for the first time right now, I would recommend "editor" for new accounts and "full editor" for autoconfirmed users. —Tim Pierce (talk) 22:54, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like a good idea. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:37, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@Tim Pierce But I don't see any clarity provided by the rename that you seem to think is provided by it. Let's make it concrete. New User: "I want to move X but I don't see any move button!" Helper: "well, you're an editor but not a full editor." New User: "what does being a 'full editor,' as opposed to an 'editor,' mean?" Helper: "it means you can't do certain things until you're account is four days old and has made ten edits." Do you see what I'm getting at? I'm not saying at all that because it's techie it "doesn't require explaining to non-techies". I'm saying that "your account isn't autoconfirmed yet" is exactly as opaque as "you aren't a full editor yet." Both require the same explanation (or a good link) in order for the person to know what the word/phrase means; no clarity is provided by the name change.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:40, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Permanently protect closed AfD discussions

A closed AfD discussion carries the following message on top:

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Wouldn't it be better if the closing admin simply redlocked the discussion? Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 14:11, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see the need for that. Even if some people added opinions after closure, nobody noticed that, and then they tried to act as if there was a different consensus, the page history would reveal the trick Cambalachero (talk) 15:09, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sometimes archived discussions have to be changed for renamed editors or for moved articles, to change the links. Fram (talk) 15:14, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Another posible case is when people cite a category during a discussion. Sometimes they mention [[Category:Foo]] rather than [[:Category:Foo]] (with : before "Category") The discussion is thus categorized there, and someone checking the categories would need to clean it from unwanted entries. Cambalachero (talk) 15:23, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

bAck to top

a bac to top button at the beginning and end of every section would be nice expecially for navigating long articles. thoughts? Heyitsme22 (talk) 15:18, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The "Home" button works perfectly fine in this page. Cambalachero (talk) 15:25, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I brought up something similar a while ago (see Wikipedia talk:Help desk/Archive 9#'Skip to top' button) and I would support such an addition. Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 15:31, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Easy to implement as a script so users who choose to have this feature can install it for themselves. Gary King (talk · scripts) 19:53, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]


First of all, I am wondering whether the initiator of this speaks English as a first language, as I did notice there were several mistakes in the English - it should have been headed "Back to Top" (or maybe the person was just tired). Enough of that - I just wanted to point out that, using most, if not all, web browsers, you can go to two arrow keys at the head of the page, in the top left hand corner. Clicking on the arrow that points back will, I think, achieve what you want to do. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 20:21, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Recommend we switch the default for the EMAIL option of talk page messages

Although I like the notification I have seen a lot of discussions about it not being wanted by some. It also seems to me that we might not need it for all the blocked accounts and such so I would like to offer a recommendation. I recommend we turn it off by default and let the users and editors choose wether they want it.

I decided to submit this because I heard this being discussed in public away from Wikipedia by someone who confessed to being blocked but could not turn the EMAIL notification off so they were getting "useless" messages every other day. --Kumioko (talk) 17:45, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree these should have defaulted to off, but that ship has already sailed. Now, why is this person unable to turn the email notification off? It's at Special:Preferences. –xenotalk 17:47, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well the ship can always get new directions and change course but true on the second point. Would someone who has been banned or blocked (say for Vandalism or Sockpuppetry for example) be able to do that? --Kumioko (talk) 17:50, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
A blocked user can still change their account preferences. If they "scrambled" their password, they can recover their password if they are getting notification emails. --Tothwolf (talk) 17:55, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Should be possibly even for blocked users, yes. And banned has no technical implications. - Jarry1250 [Weasel? Discuss.] 18:21, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Xeno... I found the messages a little annoying and would have preferred an "opt-in" method, but now that it's already implemented and easy enough to opt-out of, it might be even more annoying to change it at this point. Those who wanted to opt-out (like me) have already changed our prefs, now we'd need the people who do like the notifications to change their prefs too. 28bytes (talk) 18:04, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with both the original position of opt-out, and the thought already outlined that the horse has already bolted. No point doing anything now. - Jarry1250 [Weasel? Discuss.] 18:21, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ok fair enough I just thought I would throw it out there. It makes sense what you all are saying. --Kumioko (talk) 19:07, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Block log annotation

Following a recent Idea Lab discussion, there is now a means to annotate the "block a user" page (eg Special:Block/Rd232), by creating a page with a specific name in the relevant user's userspace. The idea is that this page would be fully protected and could be used by admins to provide clarifying links and notes for future reference. This could be particularly useful for warnings, edit restrictions, exonerations, and other things that might be relevant. Note: at present the code (at MediaWiki:Blockiptext) only displays the annotation page if it exists. This could be changed to provide a link to create the page, if the approach is thought desirable. PS If I'm correct in thinking admins can create pages protected by the MediaWiki:Titleblacklist, that could be used to fully protect this type of page, including against creation by non-admins. PPS Current downside would be not showing the annotation page on the user's block log (i.e. Special:Log), but that's less important, and possibly fixable with JavaScript, or else in software (cf Template:Bug). Rd232 talk 21:50, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps a useful idea, but on Monobook it forces the sidebar at least one complete pagelength down (when I visit Special:Block/Rd232). Killiondude (talk) 21:59, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That was a template issue (from {{cot}}/cob); I've fixed it temporarily by removing the template. I wanted the transcluded annotation page hatted though so as not to push the log entries too far down the page. Perhaps someone more template-techy can fix it. Rd232 talk 22:21, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

User pages

Let me know if I'm missing something here as IM new herebut should all user pages be configured so no one can ed it it unless it is their user page? Would this work out? Heyitsme22 (talk) 22:06, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not really. Sometimes people leave bad categories on their userpage, or deleted files, redlinks, etc. In those cases someone might want to edit it for maintenance purposes. Someone could also create their userpage with vandalism/spam, and that would need to be tagged for deletion (or it could be reported somewhere, I guess). At any rate, if your userpage is being vandalized you can request that it be protected from editing for a while. Ajraddatz (Talk) 23:36, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal at WikiProject Articles for Creation

Hello, there is currently a dicussion at WikiProject Articles for Creation which may interest you. The discussion's topic is on whether or not the Userspace draft option in the article wizard should be removed, relocated, or replaced. The discussion is located here. Thank you, Alpha Quadrant talk 23:08, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ [www.spoken-web.com www.spoken-web.com]. Retrieved 6 June 2011. {{cite web}}: Check |url= value (help); Missing or empty |title= (help)
  2. ^ http://www.spoken-web.com/index.cgi?p=about. Retrieved 6 June 2011. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
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