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    This noticeboard is for discussing the application of the biographies of living people (BLP) policy to article content. Please seek to resolve issues on the article talk page first, and only post here if that discussion requires additional input.

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    Cenk Uygur

    I need help with a sourcing issue on Cenk Uygur. I introduced an edit in the Political Views section that lists his current political views, and then source each political view with a YouTube video showing Uygur expressing the political view on his show The Young Turks. The edit has been repeatedly reverted by one user claiming there is a sourcing issue, leaving the comment "Entirely sourced to Young Turks YouTube, which is controlled by subject and lacks independent sourcing." In response I reference WP:BLPSPS which states "Never use self-published sources—including but not limited to books, zines, websites, blogs, and tweets—as sources of material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article." Ultimately my argument is that when citing a person's political views, a video of the person expressing their political views is a reliable source. This appears to be backed up by WP:BLPSPS. Independent sourcing in this case doesn't seem necessary to me because the section is on Uygur's personal opinions, not what other people think his opinions are.

    Here is a diff: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cenk_Uygur&diff=934340944&oldid=931464513. Can anyone provide their input? Cacash refund (talk) 02:29, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    I've left feedback on the article talk page. IMO given the level of stuff you're covering, you really need some secondary sourcing to keep it. Nil Einne (talk) 11:12, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    You need secondary sourcing, not Cenk's own words. You want to avoid fluff and spin that Cenk might introduce. We also don't want to list every single political position he's ever taken on every issue (that's what his personal campaign site is about), rather only what is notable. How do we determine what is notable? It would be what secondary sources discuss. Harizotoh9 (talk) 01:15, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    @Harizotoh9 What about what secondary sources consider important questions to ask him regarding his views, as in an interview or debate? My take is if a news anchor or debate moderator asks him something, his answer is given the notability you refer to because the news anchor is an independent reliable source doing research in real time, if you will. Is it necessary for Uygur to state his views in an interview and then at a later point in time for another secondary source to analyze his views in order for his answer to be notable? Cacash refund (talk) 17:18, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Per WP:DUE, content must be significant or noteworthy enough to include in an article (which is different from notability, as article content does not have to be notable itself, see WP:NOTEWORTHY). Interviews are WP:PRIMARY sources because they do not involve any analysis or discussion by an independent third-party. Secondary sources determine what is noteworthy, and primary sources have only limited value. However, you cannot add a bunch of liberal political views to the article sourced to primary sources, and then remove his previous conservative views because they are sourced to primary sources. That creates a biased article. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 18:02, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    At the time that I gave new citations to the liberal views I believed them to be secondary sources, which is why I thought they were appropriate and the conservative ones weren't. To be honest I still don't know if what I think of as a secondary source necessarily is one after all this discussion. It seems even a direct quote is enough to sway what would otherwise be independent analysis into primary source territory. Cacash refund (talk) 00:03, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Generally, a source where Uygur or people close to him are expressing his views would be a primary source, while sources where unrelated people are discussing or analyzing his views are secondary sources. WP:PSTS provides a few lists of examples in the "notes" section that are helpful. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 00:33, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Tulsi Gabbard

    Can a candidate’s self-published site be used as a source for information about themselves in their BLP as long as the 5 criteria in WP:ABOUTSELF are met? There has been disagreement among editors on this point. Humanengr (talk) 05:36, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    If primary sources are disputed, e.g., "alternative facts" about the age, you could need a better source or a rough consensus. She uploaded a "Merry Christmas" video on YouTube, remotely related to the "multireligious" topic.[1] –84.46.52.210 (talk) 12:20, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Thx for that. Can you address this objection by one editor:
    ”The inclusion of the word ‘multireligious’ in the sentence ’Gabbard was raised in a multicultural and multireligious household’ needs to be justified by contemporaneous sources (of which there are none) and is not supported by WP:CS.”
    Humanengr (talk) 15:08, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Interesting example. I guess you could argue it is to some extent " self-serving" per WP:ABOUTSELF. I'd be ok with it with a "According to Gabbard..." if there's no conflicting sources. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:33, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Be specific. We don't use self-sourced info if it's disputed by rs. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 15:12, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Not 100% true. If the BLP is responding via SPS to claims laid out by RSes at them as attempting to refute them (whether right or wrong about that), it is probably appropriate to include the BLP's SPS briefly to stay neutral. (something like "The NYTimes accused Smith of being racist, but Smith refuted this in a following Twitter message." sourced to the NYTimes' and Smith's Twitter) On the other hand, where the controversy is started by a statement from a BLP on their SPS, and RSes dispute that, its likely better to frame it from the RS and not use the BLP's SPS to start. ("Smith's claims on being non-racist have been refuted by the NYTimes" only needs the NYtimes sourcing). This should not be taken as a rule, but that there is sometimes need to do so. What we do want to avoid are the self-serving claims, those that attract no coverage at all by RSes. Including those, outside of standard factual biographical material, would be unduly self-serving. --Masem (t) 17:14, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Masem, I think "self-serving" means WP:ADVOCACY. Xenagoras (talk) 18:37, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]


    Original responder addressed the situation where there is dispute from RS on a fact in a self-published source about self. I'll open another request on the more specific point. Humanengr (talk) 16:59, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    The shorter summary by Snooganssnoogans is clearer. I dislike the US-centric "fact finding" about religious views and ethnic roots on the wrong side of OR and BLPCAT in BLPs. For multireligious I couldn't tell if that's a proper adjective, from my "DEnglish" PoV it's a red link. –84.46.53.221 (talk) 18:28, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    I'd watch out and avoid personal sites as they likely have spin and fluff. Harizotoh9 (talk) 01:13, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    WP:ABOUTSELF is clear on this matter. If a self-published source contains an exceptional claim, it requires multiple high-quality sources. In this case, an exceptional claim led to this discussion and the multiple high quality sources do not exist to support the claim. Samp4ngeles (talk) 21:03, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Being raised in a multi-religious household is not an exceptional claim. According to a 2016 Pew Research Center study "[T]he number of Americans raised in interfaith homes appears to be growing. Fully one-quarter of young adults in the Millennial generation (27%) say they were raised in a religiously mixed family."[2] Gabbard is from the Millenial cohort.
    If there were RS with specific fact allegations contradicting Gabbard, we could include both claims as indicated by Masem. But you have not yet identified any such specific statements from RS. Humanengr (talk) 01:12, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    At the moment the lede offers Hindu (given sources not checked, I believe it). The "Early life and education" section states "multicultural and multi-religious", but the given CBS source (text + video) doesn't support it (verification failed, or I need fresh coffee). While I trust that it's true, multi-religious is a red link, less elegant than your mixed, and not obviously relevant for this BLP. –84.46.53.221 (talk) 02:40, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Fresh coffee. That 2019 CBS source states: "She comes from a multicultural, multi-religious family and, as a practicing Hindu, was the first Hindu elected to Congress." From this 2012 NY Times News Service piece:
    Tulsi Gabbard, a Democrat and an Iraq War veteran who won a seat in the House from Hawaii, is the daughter of a Hindu mother and a Roman Catholic father. She calls herself Hindu, a first for a member of Congress. Bui it is not quite that simple.

    “I identify as a Hindu," Gabbard wrote in an email Thursday. “How­ever, I am much more into spiritu­ality than I am religious labels."

    In that sense," she added,“I am a Hindu in the mold of the most famous Hindu, Mahatma Gandhi, who is my hero and role model."

    Gabbard wrote that she "was raised in a multicultural, multiracial, mulitfaith family" that al­lowed her “to spend a lot of time studying and contemplating upon both the Bhagavad-Gita and the teachings of Jesus Christ in the New Testament."

    Today her spiritual practice is neither Catholic nor traditionally Hindu.

    “My attempts to work for the welfare of others and the planet is the core of my spiritual practice," Gabbard wrote. “Also, every morning I take time to remember my re­lationship with God through the practice of yoga meditation and reading verses from the Bhagavad-Gita. From the perspective of the Bhagavad-Gita, the spiritual path as I have described here is known as karma yoga and bhakti yoga."
    I should add that as a cite. Humanengr (talk) 03:07, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Maybe "multi-faith" is a better term. Gabbard has used that as well. Also see https://www.tulsi2020.com/about/about-tulsi-gabbard-my-spiritual-path. Humanengr (talk) 03:19, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks, admittedly I'm rather paranoid with ethnic/religious info (example), but I have no problem with the Gabbard BLP or her Christmas + similar personal videos, not everything on her channel is self-serving campaigning. Apologies to Masem, a good place for my reply to Humanegr was occupied in an edit conflict, feel free to move this to a better place. –84.46.53.221 (talk) 05:33, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Given she is running for election, anything from her campaign site should be taken as self-serving, and should not be used unless confirmed by a third-party RS. --Masem (t) 03:32, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not including her campaign page as a cite, but you can see it is consistent with the material going back 8 years (and it elaborates more detail to show context). There are no RS that say she did not have a multi-faith upbringing. If there were, I would include both as conflicting claims per your earlier direction. I was mentioning the campaign page as an example of 'multi-faith' in lieu of 'multi-religious'. Humanengr (talk) 03:37, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with Masem's assessment. Gabbard used the "multi-cultural, multi-religious" and/or "multi-faith" language at least twice during her 2012 campaign, as noted in the sources Humanengr mentions, which would have been self-serving and would have dispelled talk about her upbringing in the Science of Identity Foundation -- something that was local knowledge at the time. Broad claims by Humanengr about the number of Americans raised in interfaith homes do not apply specifically here and give no insight into Gabbard's religious practice in her early life. Furthermore, the sources from 2012 that Humanengr has dug up rely solely on statements from Gabbard herself and make no mention of her Science of Identity Foundation upbringing and therefore indicate a biased and self-serving nature. Beyond Gabbard's own words, there has been no secondary or tertiary analysis indicating a multireligious/multifaith upbringing. Samp4ngeles (talk) 03:53, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    The text that you yourself inserted into the Science of Identity Foundation article stated: "Butler has said of the SIF philosophy of Bhakti yoga, 'It does not conflict with Christianity, with Islam, with any bona fide religious system.'"[1] There is no contradiction between that statement and Gabbard's description of having a multifaith upbringing. The meditation practices taught through the SIF are not incompatible with the way the Gabbards have described elements of both Hinduism and Christianity being present in their home.
    You are doing OR on other people's private religious beliefs. Ignoring the fact that 'cult' is the first of the MOS MOS:words to watch, you declared your opinion as: “It would be accurate to describe SIF as either a cult-like Hare Krishna splinter group (see [3]) or a fringe yogic sect, primarily due to its virulently homophobic and Islamophic teachings” to which Ronz, responded: “Samp4ngeles, regarding cult-like, fringe , and virulently homophobic and Islamophic: No. I fail to see how those are verified by the source you indicate, let alone represent a neutral presentation of the best sources.”
    Yet you are continuing to push the 'cult' identification about SIF and Gabbard. Note that, per the WP Cult article, Catherine Wessinger (Professor of the History of Religions at Loyola University New Orleans) "has stated that the word 'cult' represents just as much prejudice and antagonism as racial slurs or derogatory words for women and homosexuals. She has argued that it is important for people to become aware of the bigotry conveyed by the word, drawing attention to the way it dehumanises the group's members and their children."
    It is inappropriate and offensive for WP to be used to push this 'cult-obsessed' agenda. Humanengr (talk) 04:34, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    This is not OR -- it's just checking for RS. The 2012 article plainly says that the claims come from an e-mail Gabbard sent. And again, you're speaking in generalities with regard to Science of Identity Foundation not conflicting with Christianity, etc., while ignoring the the lack of secondary sources discussing Gabbard's actual religious practice in early life. And I have no idea how what you have just written about cults relates to this discussion, but these are baseless claims you are making about me pushing some sort of agenda and I ask you to be WP:CIVIL and take them down. Samp4ngeles (talk) 05:11, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    For those interested in bigoted attacks that Gabbard has faced regarding her private religious beliefs, see the sources cited here. Humanengr (talk) 06:20, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    This is really grasping at straws. The Gabbards aren't mentioned anywhere in that article, and Gabbard was one year old when this article was written. I am providing a URL for anyone to read the actual article: https://staradvertiser.newspapers.com/image/276169995/ Samp4ngeles (talk) 02:56, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    References

    1. ^ Christensen, John (November 23, 1982). "Chris Butler: About this guru business". Honolulu Star-Bulletin. p. B-1.

    Christopher Beeny

    Christopher Beeny's death has now been confirmed by the BBC. EdJohnston (talk)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Persistent unsourced claims of death. I'm not finding any online corroboration. Page protection, user blocks or verification, any will work. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 20:04, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    I can't find any obituaries or anything either. According to sites like livingordead.com, he's still alive, but I wouldn't use them as a reliable source. This is definitely a BLP violation, and I would suggest giving a stern warning of that to the user. We need a very good RS to pronounce someone dead. Unfortunately, I have no power to block or page protect myself. Because this is a user problem, you may get faster results at WP:ANI or WP:RFPP. Zaereth (talk) 20:40, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    We've got a twitter statement by family. Really hope we can wait for something a bit more official. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 00:51, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think twitter is quite good enough. I know a guy who was disowned by his father, and if you asked he'd say his son was dead (to him at least). A good RS would be preferable. If true then the user in question may have personal knowledge of the subject and may have access to such a source. Even a local news obit will work; it doesn't have to be online. Zaereth (talk) 01:39, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Maybe, but I think this is one case where where editorial judgement or OR sort of comes into play in the sense that [4] is very unlikely to be the sort of thing someone will say just because they've disowned their father. If it had been something like where an account responded to a question "Is you father still alive" and the reply was "No he's long dead" then sure. Frankly, I would be more concerned about the fact the account is unverified so it could be a hoax, although even then the fact it seems to be a well established account makes this unlikely unless it was hacked, which then applies to any account anyway. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't encourage people to add poor sourcing and I'd even defend the right of people to revert if they want to. But it's the sort of thing where the risk is low enough, that frankly it's probably fine to just leave it be until a better source comes along which in a case like this is quite likely within a day or 2 and deal with some more pressing problem. Nil Einne (talk) 10:21, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    BBC, this should be resolved. --Masem (t) 19:19, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Dilraba Dilmurat

    Persistent addition of the name DelRoBa. I am not seeing any source online that Dilraba = DelRoBa. Dilraba is a transliteration of an Uyghur name. 41.102.0.91 (talk) 18:32, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    If it is contested and unsourced it can be removed. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 11:12, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Mark Kostabi

    Mark Kostabi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

    Bringing this here for review, an IP editor and a new user with one edit have both removed this content, with edit summaries of falsely sourced paragraph that is libelous and harmful and the new user claiming poorly sourced content which is misleading, harmful and libellous. I reverted both editors. I maintain the content is a significant life event for a BLP, reliably sourced, NPOV, he's well known, and has received sustained coverage through the years, 1991, 2004, 2010, 2012, 2018. Mentioned in this book as well. And the original article (June 1989) is still online, The Art Of The Hype, with a paid subscription. Should this content be removed or is it compliant with our WP:BLP policy? Left a note on the new user's talk page about this discussion. Thanks. Isaidnoway (talk) 00:28, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    • Hi there. My primary trouble is that you replaced the content prior to coming here, such disputed content would be better left out rather than replaced if discussion is needed regarding BLP concerns. Govindaharihari (talk) 05:39, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I didn't notice until today that this was already brought to this noticeboard. In addition to Isaidnoway reverting Lower Manhattan Art History Society (talk · contribs), Cullen328 and I also reverted this editor. Looking at the material, it can't simply be described as tabloid journalism. The book source is right there. It's my opinion that some material on this matter should be included in the article. That stated, per WP:LABEL, it is perhaps worth changing "homophobic remarks" to "remarks that were characterized as homophobic." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:10, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with Govindaharihari, in that if a person is unsure about BLP compliance, enough to come here for advice, then they should probably err on the side of caution and leave it out until they're assured it's ok to restore it.
    That said, the warring editor is incorrect. Page Six of the New York Post may well be an unreliable source, I don't know nor does it matter. We don't use that as a source. But it was apparently reported by the Villager, the Washington Post, the book, etc., and those are reliable sources. The retraction of the apology is properly attributed to the Page Six article. Nearly all of that is direct quotes of the subject, and nearly all the opinions are his. I also agree with Flyer22 that we should probably not say "homophobic remarks" in Wikipedia's voice, because that is a judgment call, but at the very least we should attribute it to the source. And really, the same could be said for "significant backlash". Personally, I think that first sentence is rather redundant and we'd lose nothing if it were removed. Everything needed for the reader to make those same judgments is found below, so I would just nix that sentence. Zaereth (talk) 02:30, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with Flyer22 Reborn's suggestion that we change "homophobic remarks" to "remarks that were characterized as homophobic." Bus stop (talk) 18:19, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Ben Judd

    Article I've created on a video game developer. He's recently been accused of some shady behavior. I'm mostly curious about BLP, tone, and neutrality. I would like imput from the greater community about these issues.

    Discussion:

    Sources:

    Harizotoh9 (talk) 23:48, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Well, the article needs some work. I'm not gonna lie, so please take this as constructive criticism. It reads like a diary more so than an encyclopedia article. I mean, it's nice and you've taken a lot of time and effort to source everything, and it's great to have it all in such chronological order, but it does read more like a timeline of events in a storyboard format than an encyclopedia article. And there are quite a few colloquialisms, like "higher ups" where "executives" would look more formal. And a little too much "he says" and not enough of what is said about him. The good news is that's ok, and is easily fixed.
    As for the paragraph in question, I'd say we have several major problems. The first is that our sources are op/ed columns from an editorial website. The second is that they are talking about anonymous blogs and tweets of people making unsubstantiated allegations. (I was especially amused by this line: "Another anonymous source had reason to believe the allegations, and suspected that their prominence prevented people from speaking up about it." I mean, really?) Third is that it is totally one-sided and doesn't give anything about his refutations like the sources do.
    Sexual harassment is a crime, and we shouldn't be throwing around such allegations lightly. The subject doesn't seem to pass WP:WELLKNOWN, and per WP:BLPCRIME it should probably stay out until there is a conviction in a court of law. But even if he did pass WELLKNOWN, we'd still need a lot more than a single report from an editorial website about admittedly anonymous and unsubstantiated allegations to warrant inclusion. Zaereth (talk) 02:31, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I think the additional paragraph in the "indie games" section should be removed, and only keep the brief first sentence, "In 2019, following reports of mismanagement and sexual harassment by Judd, he stepped down as CEO of Dangen Entertainment, and was replaced by Dan Stern". That sentence directly relates to his why he stepped down, and avoids some of the BLP concerns of the detailed paragraph. I don't think any mention of the sexual harassment is probably relevant for the lead. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 05:21, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree that WP:BLPCRIME applies, so sexual harassment allegations should not be included. I have removed the mention in the lead and another in the body leaving it only in the sentence that provides context for the resignation. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 11:09, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Hiroto Saikawa

    In the small biography of Hiroto Saikawa, there is a big section on Carlos Ghosn's arrest and how he is guilty of funds misappropriation. There is a note saying that so far there is no evidence of his crime since no trial has taken place, but has been deleted then added again, and will probably be deleted again. The whole paragraph on Ghosn should actually be removed, as it is actually defamatory since no guilt for Ghosn has been established. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.54.130.244 (talk) 10:04, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Jim Gardiner (Chicago politician)

    Edit warring over inclusion of a legal issue. May require page protection. 2601:188:180:B8E0:55AD:391C:FBB:BE24 (talk) 22:41, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    You were already active on WP:ANI among others, to request page protection try WP:RPP if possible: Sometimes this page itself is semi-protected, if too many IPs flood it with requests, but today it can be edited by IPs. I see no special problems on Jim Gardiner (Chicago politician), it's a stub in need of more references, I've added a {{refimprove}} cleanup tag. –84.46.53.221 (talk) 21:28, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Is Glenn Beck known for promoting conspiracy theories?

    There is a dispute on the Glenn Beck page where some editors are removing a line in his lead that says, "During Barack Obama's presidency, Beck promoted numerous falsehoods and conspiracy theories about Obama, his administration, George Soros, and others." Is it a BLP violation to say Glenn Beck promoted conspiracy theories about Obama and others? RS say he did. Furthermore, it's a central aspect to his notability. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 23:33, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    In the body, there's one line with a bazillion references that too tersely says "he promoted conspiracy theories". To better support that lede statement (which to my recollection is something well footed), that line in the body should be expected to cover up to 3 or 4 of the theories he pushed. Something like "These included theory X, theory Y, and theory Z." which now gives you a way to spread those references across the different theories putting them right after each theory so you lose the ref kudzu. You don't have to go into the theory at all, just name enough to be clear what it is, eg for example "that the Obama administration was trying to create a false flag attack akin to the OK City bombing to increase his popularity" (coming off [5]). If you better support that body statement, the lede statement is fine as is. But right now you are hand-waving a statement with a zillion refs but no specifics, and that's not helpful in terms of neutrality - just spell out the specifics better. --Masem (t) 01:19, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Random observation, X + Y + Z would be three, not numerous. –84.46.53.221 (talk) 03:05, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Accuracy of claims made by climate change deniers

    The editor Peter Gulutzan has since at least November 2018 repeatedly removed reliably sourced content on climate change denial / fringe rhetoric on BLPs by claiming that there is a BLP violation in covering inaccuracies made by prominent climate change deniers:

    There is a consensus on the reliability of Climate Feedback, which the RSP list[11] describes as "a fact-checking website that is considered generally reliable for topics related to climate change. It discloses its methodologies and has been endorsed by other reliable sources. Most editors do not consider Climate Feedback a self-published source due to its high reviewer requirements." It's starting to get tiresome to deal with these reverts of RS content, so I'd just like to get confirmation here that there is no BLP violation involved in adding reliably sourced content about the accuracy of claims made by climate change deniers. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 16:05, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Have you discussed the issue with the editor on the various talk pages? I think we need to be very careful with a claim like that one removed from the Ebell article. The claim in question, "Ebell has falsely claimed that "the rate of warming according to the data is much slower than the models used by the IPCC."" is true so long as there is one example of it being true. Absent the context in which it was made we shouldn't include such statements in Wikipedia voice. Such a definitive statement should include a link to the original claim as well as an attributed explanation to why the claim is wrong. I didn't review the other examples but this first one certainly doesn't support the view that Peter Gulutzan's edits are problematic. Springee (talk) 17:26, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you. In fact Snooganssnoogans did start a thread on the Myron Ebell talk page, I hope that editors will look at my reply there. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 00:20, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Taking the points in order:
    (Ebell) On 30 November 2018 Snooganssnoogans started a thread on the Myron Ebell talk page beginning with the incorrect assertion that I had had said climatefeedback.org is not a Reliable Source. In fact I had said no such thing, I had said "Not compliant with WP:BLPSPS and WP:WELLKNOWN.", and on 30 November 2018 I replied on that thread with a full explanation about the cited author/editor, to which Snooganssnoogans did not reply. On 2 December 2018 -- without pinging me and without discussing my actual objections -- Snooganssnoogans started a thread on WP:RSN and got 2 editors to agree (one editor did not) that in general climatefeedback looked like an RS. On 3 December 2018 another editor re-inserted the contentious material in the BLP. I asked if others had opinions (nobody did), and I did nothing further. Would anyone like to finally address what I said?
    (Berkhout) Once again, a WP:RSN thread Factcheck from climatefeedback.org as a source at Guus Berkhout. I participated, others disagreed, the material in question was re-inserted in the Guus Berkhout BLP, I did nothing further.
    (Nova) Snooganssnoogans points to this edit by me on 12 September 2019 and claims it was about various wonderful publications -- which is false, as anyone who looks at the edit can see. The cited source was cup.columbia.edu, my edit summary was "Removed "Nova is known for promoting fringe views on climate science". Cited source refutes some statements in her guide, but does not say she is known for that. Poorly sourced material." Nobody disputed that (as far as I can tell), it was a fact that the cited source didn't say it, and the statement has not been re-inserted.
    (Plimer) In this case my edit summary was "Additional source is not compliant with WP:BLPSPS, and also unnecessary, there is already a cite." i.e. I made no change to the content, so this doesn't fit with Snooganssnoogans's opening sentence that I "repeatedly removed sourced content". (In fact not only did I not remove sourced content in this case, I didn't "repeatedly" remove in other cases.) I believe it could be discussed on the appropriate talk page, and wonder what's wrong with that.
    (consensus) I refer Snooganssnoogans to the essay don't quote essays or proposals as if they were policy. More seriously, the reference to WP:RSP (which most charitably can be described as having "limited status" the same as an essay) should not be brought into a discussion as if people who are referring to WP:BLPSPS (which is a part of a real policy) need to bow to it. In this case, I looked deeper at the claim that "most editors do not consider Climate Feedback a self-published source" and found that it was added by one of the 3 or 4 editors who thought it was not self-published, as opposed to 3 or 4 who thought it was. If someone wants to establish a consensus whether Climate Feedback meets WP:BLPSPS requirements, let's have a talk specifically about that (which as far as I know has never happened) and let's have it on the relevant page which is WP:BLPN (which as far as I know has never happened).
    I would greatly appreciate a confirmation that Snooganssnoogans's points are without merit, because Snooganssnoogans has used the same points to accuse me of "tendentious editing". Regrettably an administrator (Bishonen) after 11 minutes agreed. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 17:25, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Credit: The statement about "most editors" was made by Newslinger, here. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:27, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    "The cited source was cup.columbia.edu". Just to be clear: this is a Columbia University Press book published by a recognized expert in the field of climate science. This kind of misrepresentation, one among many, amounts to WP:TE at this point. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 14:19, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Anyone who looks will see that I did not say there was anything wrong with Columbia, I said the cited source did not support the statement in the Wikipedia article. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:27, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    (Question to all) Is Climatefeedback something should be treated like the Politifact? I don't recall the exact location but I think people recently concluded that Politifact should be treated as something similar to a think tank. Their opinions are often cited by others and often have WEIGHT. However, it was also felt that they aren't a source in and of themselves. Thus if Politifac says "Senator X was wrong..." that doesn't establish WEIGHT for inclusion. Weight would be established if CNN says, "According to Politifact, Senator X was wrong...". I think discussions around the SPLC have reached similar conclusions. If that same thinking applies to Climatefeedback then I think the Ebell content, as inserted way back in the day, didn't establish WEIGHT for inclusion. Stating a living person was "wrong" is something negative about them and thus the typical BLP concerns apply. That doesn't mean it shouldn't make it into the article but we really should be careful that we aren't over simplifying what might be a more complex claim. In general I would be uncomfortable with statements like the one in the Ebell article since it looks like a random sentence thrown in to discredit the person rather than true explanation of what is almost certainly a more complex position/claim by Ebell. - Disclaimer, prior to my responses here I was not familiar with Ebell. Springee (talk) 17:39, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]


    Notified: Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard, Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Alternative views, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Skepticism. — Newslinger talk 10:50, 14 January 2020 (UTC) Notified: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Climate change, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Environment — Newslinger talk 01:41, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Describing WP:RS/P as some kind of WP:ESSAY doesn't match the effects of, e.g., "deprecated" on not logged-in users, for examples see WT:WHITELIST, WT:RSN, and WT:AFC. –84.46.53.221 (talk) 04:38, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    What I actually said was: most charitably can be described as having "limited status" the same as an essay. That charitable description is the WP:SUPPLEMENTAL guideline: "In comparison to policies and guidelines, information pages, like essay pages, have a limited status, as they have not been thoroughly vetted by the community." Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:45, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Springee, I don't think that's a good summary of the consensus on Politifact. Here's the recent RFC [12] and an earlier one [13]. The consensus to me reads that Politifact is a reliable source for factual claims, equivalent to a high quality news source. The only exception is that their specific truth ratings of a statement ("True", "Mostly False", "Pants on Fire", etc), and any kind of analysis of percentage of false statements should be attributed as an opinion. Just wanted to note that, I don't really have an opinion on Climate Feedback Red Rock Canyon (talk) 05:10, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Nobody expects the spanish inquisition here: The Hill in a "Politifact fail" video on YouTube four days ago. –84.46.53.221 (talk) 05:55, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    RRC, you are correct. It was the opinion part that editors felt needed to be cited by others in order to establish WEIGHT. Do we think that is the same case here? If CF says Jane Doe made a false claim [here], should that statement have WEIGHT by itself or does that claim need other sources to establish weight? Also, should we just quote the high level claim or should the details be included. Again, I'm concerned about what look like random, negative statements without context. In general I think labeling people as climate deniers is problematic given the extremely political nature of the public debate. Springee (talk) 14:02, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    I tend to agree with Peter_Gulutzan here. As I understand, we are supposed to present all views of reliable sources in proportion... and for bios immediately remove poorly sourced contentious material.

    • ClimateFeedback should be treated as an opinion blog site with recognition that the opinions come from credentialed academics (if verified). It carries some weight, but it's not the "supreme court" of climate change sources.
    • My search for Myron Ebel at Duck Duck Go says most sources call him a director of a center at an institute, or head of the transition team, etc. Calling him a "denier" is a derogatory term, and cherry picking a particular source is not neutrally representing more than one source(s) available.
    • Even the particular cited source (6 above) does not call Ebel a "denier."
    • The source's opinions should be attributed as such, if you want to describe claims as "false" based on them.
    • Factual accuracy and editing of material on Climate Feedback site: I spot checked this article looking at links to bios. Martin Singh's bio link gives a 404. This is a negative indicator regarding editing and reliability.

    -- Yae4 (talk) 09:10, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    @Yae4: but if you searched for "Martin Singh, Postdoctoral Research fellow, Harvard University:' you would have found this. He is now at Monash University[14] which is probably why the link no longer exists. So the fact that page was removed is not a comment on the Climate Feedback site. The site has been discussed at WP:RSN[15] - people can read the entire short discussion, but here's the first two comments:
    "An editor[16] insists that Climatefeedback.org is a self-published source run by nobodies and that we can't use it as a source for statements such as "Myron Ebell has falsely claimed that "the rate of warming according to the data is much slower than the models used by the IPCC." Climate scientists note that past climate models have accurately predicted subsequent rates of global warming."[17] Climatefeedback.org has been cited favorably recently by sources such as Deutsche Welle,[18] Columbia Journalism Review[19], Axios[20], and the Guardian which referred to climatefeedback.org as "a highly respected and influential resource"[21]. It would be good if the RS noticeboard could clarify once and for all whether this source, which other RS cite and describe favorably and which rely on assessments by actual experts, can be used as a RS, so that editors who want to scrub this source and related content from the pages of prominent climate change deniers will stop doing so (or conversely, be allowed to do so). Snooganssnoogans (talk) 09:22, 2 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    "Hard to argue against Deutsche Welle, Columbia Journalism Review, Axios, and the Guardian. --Ronz (talk) 16:53, 2 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    "*Generally reliable. With published editorial and advisory teams, a clear methodology ([22] [23]), and multiple endorsements from established reliable sources, Climate Feedback appears to have the reputation for fact-checking and accuracy required of a generally reliable source. — Newslinger talk 10:46, 3 December 2018 (UTC)" Doug Weller talk[reply]
    None of that is relevant to the specific objections I made about the Myron Ebell cite, and I never said that climatefeedback.org is run by nobodies. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:57, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    @Peter Gulutzan: I have no idea why you are telling me this as I thought it was obviously a response to the post above mine by Yae4 Doug Weller talk 16:02, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Snooganssnoogans, The fact that Singh's listing is out of date since around January 2017, or 3 years ago, and he reviewed 2 articles in 2019, including November, but they didn't update his info' is no reflection on their editorial performance or factual accuracy? With all due respect, I disagree. It's not a huge error, but it's an indicator; big errors start with small ones. His comments also struck me as being much too long, as compared with others, which is why I clicked. -- Yae4 (talk) 12:56, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    ^This is a strange criticism of a RS. This well-regarded fact-checking website comprised entirely of recognized experts is unreliable because one author did not update his author bio on the website (moving from a postdoc to a tenure-track job) and because his comments are long. You do realize that author bios are usually written by the authors themselves? This applies to the author bios in peer-reviewed academic publications, as well as the folks who write op-eds for RS. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:43, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not here to exchange snarky insults. I stand by my original, concise list of comments above. -- Yae4 (talk) 14:29, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    To clarify my last comment ^, I did not see all your edits of your previous comment until after I replied.
    So it might be good to review Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#Editing_own_comments: "even if no one's replied but it's been more than a short while, if you wish to change or delete your comment, it is commonly best practice to indicate your changes."
    Also, referring to the heading here and at User_talk:Peter_Gulutzan#Tendentious_editing_on_climate_change_topics a review of Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#New_topics_and_headings_on_talk_pages: "Keep headings neutral" also seems appropriate. -- Yae4 (talk) 23:31, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Reliable. We are in a situation analogous to that with alternative medicine: the specialists who critique climate change denial typically do so in venues dedicated to the subject of denialism, because denialism itself is not a live controversy within the field. You don't publish papers in professional climate literature saying that $RANDOMDENIALIST is wrong because (a) it's obvious and (b) it does not advance the field of climate science. So we have a number of venues, of which this is one, where specialists gather to critique a specific aspect of pseudoscience. Obviously that critique necessarily personalises things (X is wrong to say Y is hard to discuss without naming X as the source of Y). That means we have to be careful not to slip into hyperbole, but the content linked above, doesn't do that. The only thing I would do is WP:ATT everything. Guy (help!) 15:31, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Include. Climate Feedback (RSP entry) is not a self-published source, just as the similar Science-Based Medicine (RSP entry) was determined not to be self-published in a 2019 RfC. InsideClimate News won the Pulitzer Prize for National Reporting in 2013, and is not self-published because it has a sizable editorial team. The guideline on fringe theories makes it clear that "When discussing topics that reliable sources say are pseudoscientific or fringe theories, editors should be careful not to present the pseudoscientific fringe views alongside the scientific or academic consensus as though they are opposing but still equal views." Climate change denial is contrary to the scientific consensus on climate change, and is a fringe theory because it "departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field". In-text attribution is appropriate in some cases, and I would reword some of the text to focus the criticism on the people's claims, and not the people themselves. — Newslinger talk 01:37, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I made five points on a talk page post, one of which was about InsideClimate News, I've withdrawn it. It's disputed whether Snooganssnoogans's edits have always met WP:BLP requirements, and whether Snooganssnoogans's requests or accusations are laudable, but not (as far as I can tell) whether pseudoscientific views should be pushed. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 17:52, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    List of YouTubers

    Some expert input about the Stefan Molyneux entry on the List of YouTubers could be helpful, a "discussion" (not really) on the Talk page was inconclusive. –84.46.53.207 (talk) 00:39, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Stefan Molyneux substantially uses YouTube. For instance: "One of the alt-right’s biggest YouTube stars — Stefan Molyneux — is Canadian, but you’d never know it, because he talks almost exclusively about U.S. issues." Bus stop (talk) 14:17, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks, the OP proposing "remove" blanked the talk page section after my reply, and I interpret that and your reply as "keep". The BLP issue is the characterization as an Anarcho-capitalist podcaster, writer, and public speaker. Known for his advocacy of libertarianism, anti-feminism, and support for Donald Trump's presidential campaign and the alt-right, is that as it should be based on the BLP?
    And is BLP/N suited to discuss a blpo=yes list issue? –84.46.53.255 (talk) 05:57, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Balloon boy hoax

    Hi, I just added a few maintenance tags to Balloon boy hoax. This because of an outstanding discussion on whether this YouTube video should be worked into the article. It portrays undeniable evidence against the current "opinion" of the article.

    I'm only a rookie, but I believe this should be looked into. While it is a YouTube link, and "anyone can upload anything", I believe it should be taken into very careful consideration whether the current, very loaded argument the article provides is still correct for a BLP. If facts change over time, this article should too, especially if the article is almost libelous towards its subject. ShindoNana talk? 01:33, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    The now infamous video has been discussed to death previously. See Talk:Balloon_boy_hoax/Archive_3 and search for "Internet Historian". As before, this video is not a reliable source and cannot be used on Wikipedia. As far as the title of the article, it happens to be the WP:COMMONNAME found in the reliable sources. As such, do not move it to any other title as you just did. Needless to say, I have reverted your undiscussed move, your tagging of the article, and the addition of the unreliable source along with your personal observations based on the video. Dr. K. 02:18, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Inna Korobkina and Steve Valentine

    Persistent addition of unsourced WP:BLP violations to both biographies, adding names and birth dates of non notable children. Requesting page protection and user blocks, if necessary. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 03:26, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Fanboys adding un-sourced social media gossip to BLPs are sadly "normal", just remove it per BLP policy, or ask for page protection on WP:RPP. Of course you then also can't edit the page, but you can use {{edit semiprotected}} on the talk page. If many users edit the page or at least undo any damages ask for a "pending review" protection, it's far better than "semi-protection" for all involved parties if there are lots of editors. –84.46.53.221 (talk) 21:45, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    V. A. Shrikumar

    An IP requested that the above be semi-protected at WP:RFPP and I've done that. If anyone has a moment, please try to work out what is going on. In particular, some editors like adding "Menon" to the name, and some like to remove it. The image was also recently changed. Johnuniq (talk) 06:04, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Well, from what I can tell, Menon (subcaste) is more of an honorific, and not part of his actual name, so I would say leave it out. From what I can see, looking at the most recent revert, the user in question seems to be adding mostly puffery, some bad grammar, simplistic yet uncommon names (ie: "ad films" instead of "commercials", or a list of marketing tasks instead of simply saying "marketing"), and for some weird reason they like to change everything to the present tense. I think page protection is likely the best thing. Zaereth (talk) 21:59, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Ryan Avery (lacrosse player)

    Ryan Avery (lacrosse player) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

    Hi! Please help. I wanted to know what I would do if I create Ryan Avery (Keynote Speaker) in Wikipedia and there's already a name that appears the same as his, which is the subject above. I believe that Ryan Avery as a speaker is more noticeable than Ryan Avery (lacrosse player). I hope I could get advice from contributors and editors. Thank you.

    Azumi121 (talk) 13:38, 12 January 2020 (UTC)Azumi121[reply]

    I have responded to this query on the user's talk page, as it is not the sort of query this noticeboard was meant to address. --Nat Gertler (talk) 15:43, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Michael McCain

    Michael McCain

    "As CEO of Maple Leaf Foods, McCain's handling of the 2008 listeria outbreak with frank and open communications made him a role model for crisis management.[[24]]"

    This is overly promotional content with a dead source. According to policy, "Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, so long as the material is presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a disinterested tone." Statement should be changed to reflect a more neutral tone, or at the very least have a verifiable source.

    Bleepenvoy (talk) 23:56, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Removed the promotional line. EvergreenFir (talk) 00:02, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Disagree it was promotion. The Globe and Mail is a reputable paper, so a comment like this in his obit in that paper is not really promotion. As for being a dead link, a quick Wayback visit and edit added the archive there. Editors should be always checking archive.org for replacing dead links. If that source wasn't recoverable that way, I would agree the removal was fine. --Masem (t) 00:05, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Also found one academic paper reviewing the crisis management, as well as the fact the Canadian press named him business newsperson of that year for the handling. Definitely a notable facet of this person. --Masem (t) 00:16, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Fair enough. I would ask that the "role model for crisis management" bit be placed in quotes as it's still the opinion of a publication. So long as it's sourced and not stated as fact I have no further qualms with it. Bleepenvoy (talk) 05:34, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    It's on the border of needing quotes. There are likely more sources that can back that up, as the event and aftermath towards McCain's leadership and honest seems very well documented. --Masem (t) 06:21, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    In the interest of maintaining a neutral, disinterested tone, I attempted to incorporate that sentiment without stating it as fact. Bleepenvoy (talk) 08:05, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Grandmaster Shifuji Shaurya Bhardwaj

    Grandmaster Shifuji Shaurya Bhardwaj - This page contains many false informations. The cited weblinks are misrepresenting. The cited weblinks of awards are false. The page should be deleted or rewritten completely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Classical Arun (talk • contribs) 05:30, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    {{rewrite}}, {{PROD}} and {{AFD}} exist, pick what you need, the article name with a title is already odd, therefore I haven't read the page. Caveat, better don't pick PROD or AFD until this BLP/N entry is archived, about a week after the last reply. –84.46.53.221 (talk) 20:05, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Also discussed in the teahouse, Shifuji Shaurya Bhardwaj is a redirect. –84.46.53.221 (talk) 20:54, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Bohdi Jones and TicTok account for Tokpolitiks linked as same person in content but not sourced.

    Content added linking Bodhi Jones to a TicTok account are only based on the looks of the person and has not been sourced proving they are the same person. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Charles E Hampton II (talk • contribs) 12:05, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Apparently you fixed that, and BLP/N (this page) is for WP:BLP issues, where folks found no consensus on the talk page, e.g., disagree about the BLP policy. –84.46.53.221 (talk) 20:18, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think he's notable anyway. Taken to AFD. Neiltonks (talk) 16:03, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Reece Webb-Foster

    Please review the edits of @Luke Mills1996: at Reece Webb-Foster - he claims to be the subject's brother and makes edits every once-in-a-while which go against RS in the article. GiantSnowman 20:10, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    There’s literally a link saying he plays for Droylsden and all edits are right and you can drop the “ he claims “ bullshit because I am. Who are you to make edits about a member of my family when you don’t even know him or anyone from my family? Read the article mr Wikipedia page editor on a power trip and stop spreading the wrong information about my brother! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Luke Mills1996 (talk • contribs) 20:14, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    And here’s the link proving I’m right about who he plays for. Stop lying on my brothers page.
    https://www.footballdatabase.eu/en/player/details/243924-reece-foster — Preceding unsigned comment added by Luke Mills1996 (talk • contribs) 20:16, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Luke Mills1996, if you have a conflict of interest because you are related to the article subject, then you should probably be using the article's talk page (Talk:Reece Webb-Foster) rather than directly editing his page, especially if you are making edits that have been contested by other editors. Others have already directed you to WP:COI. You should also read WP:CIVILITY, which is the Wikipedia policy on how to properly interact with others in a respectful and considerate manner. Note that editors here cannot simply take your word for any fact on here. We have to be guided by the reliable sources, and if they contain incorrect information, then the article's talk page is the appropriate place to resolve those types of concerns. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 20:27, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Wally's right. We have no way of knowing who you really are, but for argument's sake I will assume you are who you say. It still doesn't matter. It wouldn't matter if you are the subject himself, we need reliable sources to back up your claim.
    From what I can tell, Steeton, Haworth, and Keighley are all part of the City of Bradford; something like Hollywood and Beverly Hills are to LA. This stat site says Keighley, while others simply say Bradford. Several newspapers and magazines like this article from the Keighley News say Haworth (it's even in the title of the article in this one). If you are indeed his brother, then you should have access to sources which contradict this info. If this is a mistake, then you and your brother should take that up with the sources and have them run a correction. Only then can we change the info. Zaereth (talk) 21:01, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Pinging @Luke Mills1996: for consideration of the above comments. GiantSnowman 20:04, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I've updated the talk page with your COI and this BLP/N info. Simplified, nobody cares if you are an enthusiast, brother or "himself", everything works. And of course you can fix obvious nonsense and vandalism. However, with a WP:COI, you cannot add facts only you know, if reliable sources are wrong you have to accept it, or suggest your evidence on the talk page, where others can check if that's good or boils down to your say-so. –84.46.53.30 (talk) 12:25, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with you for the most part, 84.46..., with the exception that the subject just has to accept mistakes made by reliable sources. However, Wikipedia is not the place to correct them. While the brother has no standing, the subject most certainly can and should contact the offending newspaper, magazine, or stat website and request that they print a retraction or make a correction. Any good RS will want to correct their mistakes publicly. Once that's done then all anyone has to do is bring a copy to the talk page and we can correct it here. But the only one with the power to make that happen is the subject.
    I have a feeling that Mr. Mills may be taking this a bit too literally. I've never been to Bradford, but let's just hypothesize that my parents live in Haworth, but for some reason I happen to be born a few miles away at the hospital in Steeton. Maybe it's the nearest hospital, I don't know. But I never lived in Steeton a day in my life. Would I be Steeton-born or Haworth born? And the bigger question, does it really matter? If I come from Mountain View, Stuckagain, or Spenard, am I not still from Anchorage? As a possible compromise, perhaps we could just say Bradford and leave it at that? And the one question burning in everyone's minds, is GiantSnowman bigger than Snowzilla (snowman)? Zaereth (talk) 22:01, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Shetler

    This article states that Norman Shelter was born in 1931 and served in World War II, but that is impossible, he would not have been 18 until 1949, four years after the war ended. Either he was not born in 1931 or he served in the Korean war. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.223.222.76 (talk) 20:30, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    If ever I saw a candidate for WP:Articles for deletion it's this one. The only sources are music academy schedules and advertisements. And a quick google search yields no reliable sources. There's no way to verify any of this, nor to establish notability. Zaereth (talk) 20:46, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard&oldid=936185866"