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Reliability of La Patilla closure review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

After posting at WP:RS/N here at AN, I was adviced to ask for a review of the closure of the RfC on the reliability of La Patilla. If I'm counting correctly, at least eight editors (without including myself) have expressed their dissaproval with the closure at Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Deprecation RFCs and quorums and have asked for its review and possible overturn. NoonIcarus (talk) 15:04, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

• There is clearly no community wide consensus that can be derived from a discussion with such a limited number of participants, and even in said discussion the majority view is not even for the option chosen by the closer. Overturn and change the close to not enough participation to determine site-wide consensus, certainly not enough for a source to be ruled verboten for use across the entire encyclopedia. And given the closer's repeated editing sprees removing sources from articles in which they themselves close RFCs as "deprecate", dont think this person should be closing any deprecation RFCs. Since they feel so strongly about the topic they should participate in the discussions, not close them. nableezy - 17:06, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
• Overturn closure (uninvolved with RfC) Two issues were raised in the discussion immediately after the close. One is a question regarding how many people should participate in a discussion before we agree there is truly a community consensus to apply deprecation restrictions to a source. This is a broad question that probably should be asked as part of a review of the wider deprecation practice. It also probably shouldn't be answered here. The second issue is if this discussion should actually be closed as consensus to deprecate. It clearly was not by the numbers. Thus strength of argument is the only justification for closing this topic as consensus to deprecate. However, the closing discussion didn't explain why votes for answers ranging from "1 reliable" to "3 unreliable" were discounted in favor of deprecation. I have little knowledge of the source itself. My post here is based on what was presented vs how things were closed. Springee (talk) 17:31, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
•  Comment: Want to disclose that I am the poster of the RfC regarding La Patilla and voted for deprecation after FactCheck.org showed that La Patilla reposted an article with information from Breitbart. There are multiple sources that are currently seen as unreliable, deprecated or blacklisted with similar to less participation (see Discogs, Last.fm, Rateyourmusic, Examiner.com, LiveLeak, Crunchbase, FrontPage, HispanTV, MintPress, BlazeTV and others). Some of these are more obvious decisions, but nonetheless, had little participation. If we are to begin a difference in concluding WP:RSP RfCs here with La Patilla today, we need to review the accuracy of the entire WP:RSP list in total and establish a more concrete policy surrounding the closing process (one user raised this concern here). Though I am in no way opposed to such changes, it seems that the opposition to the closure has more to do with the closure process than with the decision made. Please keep in mind, per WP:DISCARD, "Consensus is not determined by counting heads or counting votes, nor is it determined by the closer's own views about what action or outcome is most appropriate. The closer is there to judge the consensus of the community, after discarding irrelevant arguments ... The closer is not expected to decide the issue, just to judge the result of the debate, and is expected to know policy sufficiently to know what arguments are to be excluded as irrelevant". David Gerard reviewed the arguments made and with their knowledge of policy (which they obviously have), made a decision. Also, I would like to ping the users from a related discussion to include their input: @Silver seren, Sideswipe9th, Banks Irk, Andrevan, David Gerard, Alaexis, BilledMammal, JayBeeEll, Blueboar, Peter Gulutzan, SandyGeorgia, Selfstudier, Burrobert, Feminist, and Teratix: Thanks!--WMrapids (talk) 21:25, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
• Endorse closure. Disclaimer: I supported deprecation. I think if you're going to argue about vague process concerns in a situation like this you need to also make a principled argument toward why La Patilla is a suitable source for Wikipedia, and that means engaging with the fact that La Patilla republishes sources like Breitbart, RT, and the Epoch Times. The La Patilla discussion was open for two months. WP:RSN is a high-traffic, neutral venue. The discussion was lengthy, more than enough for a closer to work with. Mackensen (talk) 21:35, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  Excuse me, six weeks, I can't count. The point stands. Mackensen (talk) 21:36, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  And for that close being based on 4 out of 12 people in the discussion? Not even a majority for the close result. It's just funny that I, as someone who would have voted Option 3 or 4, can so easily see that it was a bad close, but I guess once involved in a discussion, it's a sunk cost issue to acknowledge anything else. Silverseren^C 21:38, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  @Silver seren ...but I guess once involved in a discussion, it's a sunk cost issue to acknowledge anything else I beg your pardon. Mackensen (talk) 21:49, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  When involved in a discussion, whether it be an AfD or an RfC, there is a resistance to any other outcome than the one desired, even when certain results are clearly not appropriate for the consensus shown. I've had to deal with such sunk cost feelings as well in other discussions. Silverseren^C 22:24, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  Really? Mackensen (talk) 22:46, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  Mackensen, those sound like very good reasons to !vote 3/4 in the original discussion. However, this discussion should not be asking if the source is reliable or not. Instead it should ask if the RfC closing process was correctly followed. Springee (talk) 22:29, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, and I addressed this in my comment. Process is important, and so is consensus. Consensus isn't a head count. A good closer will evaluate the strength of the arguments when closing and discount those that aren't well-grounded in policy, or that don't have a good grasp of the pertinent facts. This was done here. I feel confident asserting that Wikipedia shouldn't allow a source that republishes Breitbart, RT, and the Epoch Times, and that most Wikipedians, in the light of cool reason, would agree with that. What's the principled counter-argument, and why didn't anyone make it in the original discussion? Mackensen (talk) 22:39, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  Sure, comments have to be disregarded sometimes because they aren't based in policy, but there's some limit to how much a closer should use their own intuition to make up the difference — otherwise we wouldn't bother having RfCs at all, we would just have one person say "yes" and one person say "no" and then get a closer to decide which of them had the right opinions. Consensus isn't a head count, but four people out of thirteen saying a source sucks should not be recorded as a project-wide consensus to forbid any mention of an entire website. Deprecation is an extreme measure (in fact, the most extreme of any of the options listed) that shouldn't be done on a sorta-kinda-basically basis. jp×g 23:25, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  I agree that a good closer should look beyond the simple !vote count. However when 2/3rd of the respondents don't say 4 (or in a hypothetical case 1) then it gives the strong appearance of being a supervote. Had the close been 3 it would be easier to understand. Certainly anyone who says deprecate would agree that means it's at least generally unreliable. But when the !vote and the closing are so far out of step it no longer looks like we are following the process. This is before we even go into the issues with deprecation that jpxg mentioned below. I mean, can anyone actually say what the standard is to qualify for deprecation (cue the "double secret probation" clip) Springee (talk) 23:36, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

• Endorse closure per Mackensen. Andre🚐 21:35, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

overturn and reopen I wonder whether deprecation should be a standard option in an initial RFC, but rather only discussed in follow up threads about sources already marked as unreliable. As to concerns of quorum I think it's depends on how serious the discussion needs to be, certainly sites that are WP:UGC or have WP:COPYVIO concerns don't need large attendance RSN could overturn the underlying policies the discussion just services as a rubber-stamp. However neither of these are valid reason for overturning. What is is that I don't believe the numbers and discussion add up to a close for deprecation. I'm not an experienced closer but "generally unreliable" seems more apt. With a note that republished articles from deprecated sources stay deprecated even if republished by another source. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 21:40, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I wonder whether deprecation should be a standard option in an initial RFC, but rather only discussed in follow up threads about sources already marked as unreliable This has been said before and I completely agree. Selfstudier (talk) 22:17, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

@Selfstudier: I second this. WMrapids (talk) 22:20, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Seems like a very good idea to me. Springee (talk) 22:27, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I'd support this as well. jp×g 23:25, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

To be clear I do believe depreciation is sometimes very necessary. But it should be used for sources knowingly publishing falsehoods, otherwise acting in a duplicitous manner, or is an ongoing waste of time. Having more involvement from editors at RSN wouldn't hurt either. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 23:39, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I would also suggest making it clear when Deprecation is needed. Some people seem to think deprecation is needed because we really don't like what the source has to say or because the source is really unreliable. From the opening of WP:DEPRECATE, "Deprecated sources should not be considered to be either unique or uniquely unreliable." This tells me that we should never be deciding between 3 or 4. We only use 4 when some special circumstance demands it. The Daily Mail was the first case but it was also before RSP was created. Post RSP have there been any sources that were causing issues on Wikipedia and thus required someone more than just saying generally unreliable? Looking at wp:DEPRECATE it honestly isn't very clear what qualifies for deprecation. The closest I see is a talk page comment that says it's for sources that continually come up as a problem. That seems very infrequent thus very few sources should ever qualify. Springee (talk) 00:33, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

• Overturn closure The closure doesn't line up with the discussion shown and the consensus therein, even when weighing the different stances. And double the number of people have expressed opposition to the closure since than supported the outcome the closer went with in the first place. Just a bad close overall, not much else to say about it. Silverseren^C 21:42, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

• Overturn (uninvolved) I mean, really, from zero to deprecated with such limited (persons) consensus.Selfstudier (talk) 22:23, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

• Overturn (uninvolved). Deprecation isn't a policy or guideline — it's basically an emergency measure that disregards a lot of policy and should be taken only in the most outrageous cases. Everyday decisions about whether a specific reference (an article, a story, whatever) is reliable to source a specific claim should be handled by the people who are writing and discussing the article, not a bureaucratic determination of the entire source's "reliability" based on local consensus of a dozen people at some random noticeboard some time in the last decade(!). That said, even in the event that this was a legitimate way to determine and enforce the "reliability" of sources, it's not clear that this RfC is a consensus. One person says it's a bad RfC; there are four people who support options 1 or 2 ("generally reliable" or "additional considerations"), three for option 3 ("generally unreliable") and three for option 4 ("deprecate"), plus one person who said that both 3 and 4 were acceptable. It's difficult to see how this could be seen as a consensus for anything, but extremely difficult to see how this could be seen as a consensus to deprecate (a much harsher decision that disrupts the status quo significantly). Again, deprecation is basically a IAR-style "this website is so malignantly bad, and such a persistent problem, that we must overrule all normal editorial processes to purge it from Wikipedia" — not "four people out of thirteen said they thought it sucked". jp×g 22:27, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
• Endorse - per Mackensen, etal. When reading through the arguments, 3 (Generally unreliable) had pretty solid consensus and so did 4 (Deprecate), though by a much slimmer margin. (Incidentally, just for the vote-counters out there, I went through and grouped together 1 and 2, and 3 and 4, and by doing that, 3/4 seem to have the majority. And no, no one should ever close based upon numbers like that - that was purely for the vote-counters out there.) - jc37 23:15, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  Based upon the clarifying comments by the closer, I am no longer comfortable endorsing the close. I was broadly trusting in their discretion, in light of neutrally assessing the discussion per broader policy/process/prior consensus/etc. I'm just not seeing that in their clarification. And the disinclination to even modify the unfortunate phrasing of "majority", doesn't help things either. - jc37 09:03, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

• Overturn (uninvolved) w.r.t. the RSN thread. When reading through the arguments, it looked like there was plainly not consensus to deprecate. Additionally, the closer's claim that there was a majority for deprecation is plainly false; even though consensus is not determined by a bean count, the closer's assertion that a majority of participants favored outright deprecation is plainly false. As Silver seren aptly notes above, [t]he closure doesn't line up with the discussion, even though a basic requirement of a good RfC close is that it faithfully represent the discussion's result. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 23:33, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  I agree that there were some issues with word choice in the closure. And I think clarification statement from the closer could be helpful/informative. - jc37 23:40, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  It is not merely about word choice. The only basis for the close in favor of outright deprecation rather than characterizing it as GUNREL presented was that alleged majority vote, but no such majority exists when looking at the discussion broadly. There is no mere clarification that resolves that there was plainly not consensus to deprecate in that discussion; the only solutions for when the result is plainly wrong are either to (1) have the closer vacate the close or (2) have the current close overturned by the community. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 23:51, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  And from your perspective, I can see that. I think where you and I seem to generally disagree is to how slim the margin was for deprecation (or rather, whether there was a margin at all : ) - and I'll admit I'm leaning more than a bit on "closer discretion" here, which is why I think a clarification of some type by the closer could possibly be helpful/informative - jc37 00:17, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

• Overturn, close relies on the blatantly false claim of a majority for deprecation. (commented on RSN talk but not RfC) – Teratix ₵ 00:02, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
• Overturn, there was no majority (1.5 !votes out of 10 for deprecation). If the !votes for deprecation somehow had better arguments, this should have been stated explicitly. I haven't participated in the RfC and have no opinion regarding the reliability of the source itself. Alaexis_¿question?
• Comment from closer: it was a close one, heavily argued for several weeks in multiple venues. I assessed it as between "generally unreliable" and "deprecated", leaning toward deprecation - it certainly wasn't, say, between "GU" and "considerations apply" - it was clearly considered a very bad source, and the only question is the precise class to put it into. The outlet's blithe use of sources given to fabrication (for which those sources had already themselves been deprecated) seemed to swing it more in the discussion to deprecation in its own right than merely "GU". But the outcome could reasonably have been either GU or DEP, sure. I wouldn't put it higher than "generally unreliable", though. I've also noted this discussion at WP:RSN - David Gerard (talk) 07:52, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you for clarifying. Would you consider adjusting your close? The "majority" sentence in particular seems at issue. But also, while I do support closer discretion, perhaps, based upon what you have said, and in light of the above, you might re-look at the discussion? - jc37 08:05, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

  I think "deprecate" is a valid outcome for the discussion as was. This current discussion has been open for only a few hours, so changing it would be a bit premature, wouldn't you think? Particularly given the opener's failure to publicise it fully - David Gerard (talk) 08:11, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

  To clarify, are you maintaining there was a majority for deprecation? – Teratix ₵ 17:01, 7 August 2023 (UTC) (@David Gerard: in case you missed this) 21:12, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: there appears to be a drive to leverage this discussion into removing the concept of deprecating sources. We had an RFC on source quality RFCs in 2019 Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_275#RFC:_Moratorium_on_"general_reliability"_RFCs that kept them. If you want to remove the concept of deprecation, then a broad general RFC in the proper venue, e.g. WP:RSN, would likely be the way to swing that - David Gerard (talk) 08:46, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
• Overturn (uninvolved). It's as simple as, as has been noted above, deprecation is ou strongest possible response to a source and is site wide. As such the decision to do so must be equally strong and equally site wide. This close represented neither. SN54129 09:36, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
• Overturn and reclose (uninvolved). I don't believe the number of users and forum were particularly flawed. I am however backing a reclose because I don't see option 4/depreciate as in any way having a consensus for it. An option 3 (generally unreliable) might, as could a very strict option 2 (unlikely but possible). When having the reliability scale of options (vs a change/no-change option) discussion, it's generally reasonable to assuming that anyone backing option 4 would back option 3 if the alternative was anything less. So a consensus could be garnered that way, but the current close I don't think can do so. Nosebagbear (talk) 09:58, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
• Overturn (uninvolved), per good arguments by jpxg, nableezy, Silverseren, and others. And support ActivelyDisinterested's suggestion on deprecation not being the first step.

Side note: I'm increasingly seeing RfCs at WP:RSN for sources that aren't widely used, and have never (or only once) been discussed at RSN before. It's problematic when the source is obscure or foreign, because it can be hard to evaluate a source you're not familiar with; people might focus on whichever aspects the OP chose to highlight (whether cherry-picked or not). RfCs should be mostly a last resort, because they have this "aura" of seeming binding and settled, yet their scrutiny may be no better than if the source had been repeatedly brought up over the years in non-RfC WP:RSN discussions, each time involving different editors who discussed different aspects. A source that quotes Breitbart may be more clear-cut (and isn't an ideal example of what I'm describing), but I think the overall trend needs addressing. DFlhb (talk) 11:00, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm regularly at RSN, and the vast majority of threads end in simple advice. Unfortunately misuse of the board, as with other boards, does happen. Greater attendance would certainly help. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 11:20, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Worth noting that in this particular case, the RSN La Patilla discussion wasn't out of nowhere - it was a followup from a contentious discussion on Talk:La Patilla, on the issue of how to deal with a news source that was enormously popular but also reran material from Breitbart and the Epoch Times. That is, there was a genuine dispute that was squarely in RSN's remit - David Gerard (talk) 12:51, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

• Overturn closure, and encourage the original poster to follow up on advice given them at ANI before launching other RFCs. As described at ANI by ActivelyDisinterested, the way the OP has gone about creating these RFCs has assured limited participation; that, and the WP:BLUDGEONing made me at least (knowledgeable about Venezuela since I worked throughout Latin America and the Caribbean during the 1980s and 1990s) unwilling to even weigh in to the mess.
  One thing that really sticks out, given the censorship and absence of free media in Venezuela, is that WMrapids has so far not accounted at all for WP:EXPERTSPS in their campaign to eliminate Venezuelan sources. As essentially all independent media has been shut down in Venezuela (see samples sources at the ANI), a thorough analysis of how a source can be used on Wikipedia will involve looking at how often other experts cite these sources, for example in scholarly sources and highly reliable newspapers. I haven't had time to look at La Patilla, but this, for example, is the case in spades with Nelson Bocaranda and Runrunes--another source that WMrapids has targeted. (Disclaimer: I created Nelson Bocaranda when his name came up in a 2008 Featured article candidate; [1] it's somewhat impossible to have worked in Latin America during the 1980s and not know who he is.) It is equally likely to be true of Alberto Federico Ravell of La Patilla, and I don't believe this has been looked at, but some use of the source as EXPERTSPS is likely to be possible.
  I strongly encourage WMrapids to work with other Venezuela-knowledgeable editors before throwing up RFCs (the best RFCs as those that are not launched until they have ample feedback from all "sides" to avoid garbage in-garbage out, which is what we have now on the RFCs), are those editors will be more likely to be able to point WMrapids to SPSEXPERT usage and history and sources and issues they appear so far to be unaware of. They seem to have embarked upon this campaign because of issues in Peruvian articles, and Venezuela is not Peru. In a country where the absence of press freedom is on par with that of Russia, most Middle Eastern countries, Yemen, and at the bottom of the list with the likes of China and North Korea, a solid analysis of sources per WP:EXPERTSPS needs to be undertaken before establishing reliability, much less deprecation. Doing this correctly will take a lot of work, as sources are so hard to find (most formerly reliable Venezuelan news archives have been taken over by the government and scrubbed as journalists are forced into exile, and most Wikipedia articles in the entire suite have been systematically biased by a few other editors hard at work in the entire suite inserting Maduro POV.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:27, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

  I failed to indicate my level of involvement. I had no historic engagement with WP:VENRS, and I did not participate on the RFC for La Patilla beyond stating on Talk:La Patilla that the RFC there was malformed. I was once actively engaged in editing Venezuelan topics, but disengaged years ago because keeping up with the rampant tendentious editing throughout makes it a timesink. It was widely known in Venezuela that Chavez had paid editors, although reliably-sourced proof of this has not yet emerged to my knowledge. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:59, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

• Overturn and reclose; there is clearly not consensus to deprecate the source: but there is also enough substance in that discussion to create an RSP entry, and to mark it level 2 at the very least (I have not evaluated all the posted links, which I would do if I were closing this). Reposting content from Breitbart and IBTimes is most certainly a red flag, and cannot be dismissed outright. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:22, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

  I agree that Level 2 is likely to turn out to be reasonable in this case, but I'd want to undertake the EXPERTSPS review I mention above before entering a declaration, and that takes time I don't have. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:31, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

  I have no objections to anybody conducting an EXPERTSPS review, but I want to be clear that I'm not supporting a level 2, I'm saying that's the best possible outcome for the source: no website that reposts content we have deprecated could ever be considered uniformly reliable, and indeed the default assumption should be of a lack of reliability. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:36, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

  Same, for clarification: I'm not intending my post to support either 2 or 3, as I haven't done the work, but it's not 1 or 4. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:52, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

• Overturn (involved) This might be implicit being the one that started the thread, but I wanted to explain further at any rate. Besides there not being a consensus for deprecation, as stated in this discussion, the fact that La Patilla generally publishes "questionable, fringe and propaganda content" (as stated in the closing statement) was hotly debated in the discussion, and the assertion that the outlet tended to be used as an "negative example" per WP:USEBYOTHERS (also stated in the closing statement) needs explanation as well, since this is not reflected in the discussion. --NoonIcarus (talk) 21:39, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
• Overturn (uninvolved). The RFC was malformed from the start, and the characterization of 3, or possibly 4, comments out of a dozen as a "majority" is obviously wrong on its face. There was clearly no consensus to deprecate the source. Banks Irk (talk) 02:01, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
• Overturn and reopen (involved) After reviewing the concerns addressed above, I am encouraged by the large amount of feedback and agree that the "majority" calling for deprecation was an inaccurate description. Reviewing the closer's history and experience, I initially had faith in their decision, but users make mistakes sometimes (trust me, look at my recent edit history), so that is why there should be a more community-centered process for deciding deprecation instead of having a single user decide. Seeing that this RfC has sparked more involvement, I believe its closing should be overturned and that the RfC should be reopened in order to achieve a more broad consensus. Even though the closing decision agreed with my position, my goal was not to deprecate La Patilla but to determine a consensus on its reliability, which can now be established with further participation if this discussion is reopened.--WMrapids (talk) 06:23, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
• Thanks WMrapids for the ping. I share the concerns expressed by Nableezy and others about the idea that four people could possibly represent a WP-wide consensus to deprecate a source; by Teratix and others about the use of "majority" in the close; by ActivelyDisinterested about including deprecation in a very first RfC on a source; and by DFlhb about the frequency at RSN of RfCs on the broad use of sources instead of discussion about particular instances of sources being used to support particular claims in particular articles. It's obvious that the closure should be overturned (and frankly disappointing that David Gerard hasn't already withdrawn it). --JBL (talk) 17:22, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
• Overturn (uninvolved so far, but read the previous discussions). My understanding is 4/12 participants opted for depreciate, and the close says "the majority agreed to depreciate". A Majority would 7/12, so right there - I feel the close is a problem because it's not accurate, I don't see a clear consensus other then "it's not a 1". Someone made a good point in one of the follow up discussions, that while the source had reposted content from blocked sources, it was translations of the better content of those sources, not translations of the worst content that got them blocked, and they'd even posted a retraction of one article found to be a problem later on. It does make sense to put a note that some of their content is translation of blocked sources, and those translations should not be used as a way to "get around" their block. But the examples I saw were clearly labeled with the source, so those articles would be obvious. Denaar (talk) 14:36, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Reclose as "no consensus". There is nothing stopping one finding a better source if one exists for a statement. Also we don't use solely one source to verify a controversial statement as far as I am aware, if that were the case, then everyone could say that this is true because the president's mom said so. Aasim - Herrscher of Wikis ❄️ 00:11, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

• Snow overturn. This close has no chance of surviving community review, and further delay is purposeless.—S Marshall T/C 07:25, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
• Reopen I would have closed that as "generally unreliable" because there is clearly consensus for that, even if there is not for deprecation. But we certainly need to close it as something, and there is no consensus for options 1 and 2. More eyes would be welcome. Black Kite (talk) 07:43, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
• Overturn and reopen (uninvolved). As Black Kite noted above, a "no consensus" close also seems inappropriate (and essentially kicks the can down the road when editors clearly have some serious concerns about the source; only one editor argued for treating it as generally reliable). Dylnuge ^{(Talk • Edits)} 19:24, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
• Reopening (uninvolved): Upon careful review of the original discussion and the arguments presented here, it's evident that the initial closure decision did not adequately reflect community consensus. A clear mismatch between the closure's description that "the majority agreed to depreciate" and the actual opinion count suggests an error in interpretation of the feedback, with 4/12 not constituting a "majority" by any mathematical sense. Furthermore, several editors provided substantial arguments against depreciation which weren't adequately accounted for in the closure decision; the discussion surrounding the translation of content from blocked sources and La Patilla's behavior in terms of retractions is particularly salient. Ignoring such nuances undermines the very purpose of an RfC, which is to evaluate sources in their entirety and detail. Additionally, depreciating a source decision has far-reaching implications for how it will be used in Wikipedia going forward; given the unclear consensus and the small number of participants relative to the impact of such a decision, a reconsideration is crucial. As a Venezuelan myself, I possess a firsthand understanding of the intricacies and nuances of our media landscape, appreciating the challenges and dynamics at play. This perspective grants me an insight into the weight and gravity of depreciating a source like La Patilla in a country where press freedom is a constant challenge. Not to mention, the complex media situation in Venezuela, emphasized by SandyGeorgia's valid points about considering the lack of press freedom in Venezuela and how that might weigh on source evaluation, should influence any decision on La Patilla's reliability. Given these substantial concerns about the initial closure, I'd recommend the RfC be reopened for wider discussion and possibly invite a broader set of editors to ensure a fair and thorough evaluation of the source in question. Wilfredor (talk) 21:29, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Qwerfjkl and non-admin closures of categories

A week and a half ago, I nominated Category:United States presidents and death for renaming to Category:Deaths and funerals of United States presidents. Earlier today, I moseyed on over to CfD to see what happened. I noticed that User:Qwerfjkl had non-admin closed the CfD as rename…but they hadn’t actually made the move, nor had they even removed the CfD template from the article. And then I noticed that this wasn’t the only CfD like this. As I see it, one or more things need to happen here:

1. Admins need to clean up some of these CfDs, completing the moves that User:Qwerfjkl has closed
2. Qwerfjkl needs to stop closing CfD discussions like that

pbp 18:52, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

After closing the discussion, Qwerfjkl listed it at Wikipedia talk:Categories for discussion/Working in this edit, in accordance with the instructions for closers, so it is already flagged for admin action. DanCherek (talk) 19:23, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, this is the standard process. It's a shame that only one person is processing that queue right now, and thus a large backlog has built up. When the crats finally implement my RfA I will definitely help clear that queue, and of course any other admins watching this are welcome to join us, but Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive354#WT:CFDW backlog was archived without reply. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 03:02, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

I have now cleared the backlog of CfDs needing admin action. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 00:17, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Awesome. Thanks for doing that. Way to put your new tools to good use :) –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:11, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, and Qwerfjkl should probably put seven days of his life to one side in the nearish future to avoid having to use the {{nac}} template. In the meantime, this can be closed, as the OP's assertion has no basis in policy. SN54129 11:02, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Report on User:Thewolfchild

Am having an issue with Thewolfchild who may be heading back to old habits -he inserted some misleading names, which I restored as they're linked to the proper article title(s). I've been accused false actions (not collaborating)- I asked & suggested this and received this response - I've been referred to as being Dick. Even this source has the names spelled out. We've been back & fourth with no end in sight. And still with no consensus, reached on the talk page, he does a "clean up"...basically a total revert. Would appreciate any help - Thank you FOX 52 ^talk! 06:48, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

FYI – notified TheWolfChild. Tails Wx (they/them) 06:52, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks - FOX 52 ^talk! 06:59, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

To be fair, right before they called you a dick, you were pretty snarky with them. When they asked you to elaborate on your rationale for formatting the names the way you wanted to, your curt reply of "It's called reading" is not exactly civil. Calling you out by citing WP:DICK was a pretty mild response to your own rudeness. I don't know enough about the subject matter at hand to weigh in on the content dispute at hand (and ANI is not the place to have that discussion), but there's quite enough shit-slinging going around on both sides that neither of you comes off as particularly clean. WP:BOOMERANG and all that. I think the entire discussion could benefit from a turning down of the temperature altogether, and some dispute resolution may help break the deadlock over the issue. That's my advice; both of y'all need to bring some outside voices into the discussion and both of y'all need to back away for a while and let cooler heads contribute some new perspective on the discussion. --Jayron32 16:53, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes I agree, I don't normally activate an ANI, but given then editor past behavior, I felt it should be noted. And in time am sure it'll get resolved - cheers FOX 52 ^talk! 17:42, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

FYI, this is the main AN, not AN/I. Heavy Water (talk • contribs) 15:57, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

I've noticed that "ANI" has sorta become the generic term for both of those pages. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:39, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Ackshually, this should have gone to ANI not AN. -qedk (t 愛 c) 23:08, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Review of my unblock of Panda619

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I wish to start out by saying that I absolutely agree that the behavior this user caused (like here) is absolutely unacceptable in any capacity or any way. The user came onto IRC to request an unblock per Wikipedia's standard offer. I accepted, if anything, because of WP:ROPE. If the user decides to go amok and cause havoc, the block button is simply a few clicks away. We're taught here to use sound and good judgement (of course), but that can extend anywhere. Please understand this: If I'm found to be wrong for what I did, then I'm wrong; I absolutely 100% apologize for the decision I made, and I will understand, take any and all feedback with positivity, and learn from this in order improve my imperfections.

I'm sure that everyone here knows that I'm not here to hurt anyone, and I respect every (legitimate) editor here. I want to drive the spirit of Wikipedia to fulfill our mission to the best and fullest extent - That's all. This unblock generated this discussion, which I absolutely agreed to present what I did to this noticeboard. I've re-blocked this user pending discussion. My thought is this: If someone comes back a year later to apologize and explain (off-wiki evidence that I'm happy to provide), I think that's fine. I don't understand what the alarming issue is here. This isn't a "911", which are things both we and I resolve and take care of regularly. I just want a review and a discussion, even if it means that I am found to be wrong and at fault. Discussions are a critical part of Wikipedia, and I will never stand in the way of that.

Anyone is welcome to chime in, respond, and give their honest thoughts here - even if it disagrees 100% with what I did. Thank you to everyone in advance for their responses. :-) ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:08, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose unblock Looking at the IRC discussion, Panda619 still doesn't really understand why they were blocked. They say

she died, I was happy, I am Indian, who reads lot of history and politics, I assume you know about British empire's atrocities, so at spur of moment I did that as a joke, it was there for a second I think, then one editor gave me vandalism warning and then lot admins came in and was talking how severe it was and such, and got blocked instantly, I tried appealing, they were still like, nope

... but doesn't appear to mention that if it was a spur of the moment thing, that doesn't explain why in their later unblock appeal they referred to Queen Elizabeth as a "genocidal hag" and a "pedo defender" ([2], admin only). Let's not forget the original vandalism was replacing QE2's article with a meme image and "RIP BOZO" in article space whilst the article was the most viewed article on Wikipedia. Despite being a Brit I'm no great fan of the royal family myself - to put it mildly - but a half-arsed "yeah won't do it again honest" doesn't really cut it for me. Black Kite (talk) 20:19, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

• Noting that I raised this with Oshwah initially, and talked it over with him and a few others on Discord subsequently: Keep unblocked, without prejudice against proper community unblock request. The net result of the unblock/reblock is a restoration of talkpage access, which is fine. Panda's comments on IRC aren't really formatted in the manner of a community unblock request, nor were they intended for this audience, even if it's understood channel logs can be shared. So I think it's unfair to them to do a full unblock review without an actual community-oriented request from them. Let's close this sooner rather than later, and if they want to write up a paragraph or several for the community's consideration, they can. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 20:28, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  Tamzin, is that bolded part meant to say "Keep reblocked", or am I misunderstanding? DanCherek (talk) 23:04, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  OMG yes, thank you. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 23:19, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) I don't think this was a good unblock, both on substantive (along the lines Black Kite outlines above), and on procedural grounds. Given that there were several declined unblock requests, I think objections were foreseeable, and so this should have been discussed with other admins before taking action – especially because -unblock is not a transparent venue. I also don't think this revdel reversal should have been made without prior consultation of the deleting admin. Regardless of the merits, the action was neither an obvious error nor was it causing any immediate issues. --Blablubbs (talk) 20:33, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  Blablubbs - Good call. I've redacted the edit and edit summary again under policy. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:37, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  Oshwah, I just saw this. It is another admin action of mine that you undid without notifying me. At least give me a chance, as the deleting admin, to tell you that I think it was a BLP vio (or WP:BDP, to be more precise). I mean, you're welcome to assert it was only vandalism and therefore ineligible for revdel, but allow me to at least respond to your objections before you act; to know that there are objections, in the first place. Thank you. El_C 12:36, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

  I think that this unblock should have been discussed with the blocking administrator and the administrators who declined the previous unblock requests. This was severe and egregious vandalism of an exceptionally high profile article. To be frank, I am uncomfortable with unblock discussions taking place on IRC because of greatly reduced transparency. I do not participate in IRC for that very reason. I share Black Kite's concerns about the later utterly unacceptable "genocidal hag" and "pedo defender" remarks. This was not a one time incident. Also worth noting is that the original edit misused a non-free image, which is approved only for use in a single article. I think that this editor should stay blocked until they submit a much more persuasive unblock request on their talk page, and all interested administrators are invited to review it. On a personal note, I oppose all monarchies as part of my political philosophy. Cullen328 (talk) 21:41, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  Cullen328 - I appreciate your input. Thank you. :-) ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 22:16, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  Just to clarify, Cullen, #wikipedia-en-unblock ^connect is not normally used to conduct the entirety of an unblock request. Usually that only happens when the issue is a technicality, such as a username softblock or an IP block based on outdated information. For an OFFER/ROPE unblock request, the purpose of -unblock is to discuss reenabling talkpage/UTRS access (if applicable) and to give someone general guidance on how to formulate a block appeal. It's not meant to be a substitute for on-wiki discussion. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 22:40, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

• Not an admin, but frankly I'm shocked and surprised at the unblock. For offenses of this nature which led to the block, I think going through the standard channels of submitting an unblock request on the user talk page (or UTRS as necessary) should be a minimum step for any sort of unblock to take place, and if you lost those privileges, then I'm not sure that a request should even be heard. In any case, any conversation regarding the unblock can still take place on the talk page and could also be addressed by the blocking administrator as needed. I agree with the above calls to keep blocked. Cheerio, ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 02:33, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

  WaltCip - Everyone's opinion and thoughts are welcome; it doesn't matter if you're an admin or not. Thank you for commenting and sharing your input. :-) ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 03:49, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

  After TPA is revoked, one is usually expected to go to WP:UTRS if they wish to regain it. If one is then also banned from UTRS, what do they do? IRC/Discord? And if so, is it to regain UTRS access, or less bureaucratically, straight to regaining TPA? In that sense, jumping straight to an unblock because UTRS, which is about regaining TPA only, wasn't available due to the appellant's own misconduct — that was kinda nuts. But also unintentional, irrespective of those mechanics. So indeed, a rare blunder from Oshwah, for which he apologized, and I of course accept (sorry I neglected to say so). For my part, as the blocking admin, I'm fine with the user either regaining UTRS access, or even directly regaining TPA absent UTRS. I don't intend on being too involved, if at all, in discussing any future unblock appeal/s, and am generally content to leave all that to others. El_C 10:58, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

  It's worth noting that the WP:SO essay states that once an appeal is posted on the IRC or Discord or whichever, if [the appellate admin agrees] a review is appropriate, they'll open a thread at an administrative noticeboard (ideally Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard). I suppose we are indeed now doing this, but in a somewhat out-of-order fashion, as it didn't specify anything about opening a thread after the fact. 😊 It does also state that it's generally for stuff like bog-standard incivility and it doesn't extend to extremes, and while I feel this is certainly an "extreme" scenario, I'm not quite certain what "extremes" means in this context since it refers to police actions or office actions as an example. Whatever the case may be, I think we're at least in agreement that everybody was acting in good faith here, and I agree with El_C in that respect. Cheerio, ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 12:50, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per above and also the message I had made on last ANI.[3] Even before this Elizabeth episode, there were too many problems with this user and they were never addressed by him. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 11:00, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
• Conclusion: This user will remain blocked. I apologize to anyone who felt that I should've looked deeper and taken more time to review the user's request. You're right; I should've done so. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 14:09, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
• Procedurally, the unblock was a rare mistake by Oshwah, for the reasons mentioned above. It's not a pattern, he's not doubling down, my guess is he's a fallible human like most of us, etc. But practically, it would very likely have been a good unblock, as the odds of Panda619 vandalizing again were really, really small. Now, Panda619 needs to become aware that in spite of what we say out loud, there usually is an aspect of punishment too, and there are smart and dumb ways to ask for an unblock. So some contrition is going to be needed, and if that's a non-starter for Panda619 then I guess they should give up. Whether or not I would be willing to unblock without a forced apology, I think it's clear the community (primarily from the West) won't. --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:49, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

  I also think an unblock on merits makes sense. An editor has an apparently rare(?) bout of emotional activity, behaves inappropriately, and later says: Yeah, It is not am excuse, that's why I said, It won't happen again & all I can assure you is, this won't be happening again and I want to go back to editing the usual anime pages - in the circumstances, I would extend a second chance. If I were in that editor's shoes in the present situation, I don't personally know what else I would say to convince people that disruptive editing would not continue, aside from what they've already said. I don't think the editor needs to change their evidently strong opinion on the monarch - they just need to not express it in any form here. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 17:26, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

  Re "primarily from the West": I'm relatively sympathetic to anti-imperial criticism of the late queen. At a minimum, I think we have a significant blindspot as a community regarding the British royal family, where many users see them as an apolitical entity and are unaware that a large portion of the world sees them as very much not so. That said, we have thousands of extendedconfirmed users from countries previously colonized by the UK, and only one of those users saw fit to vandalize Elizabeth II on the day of her death. There's a risk on the other side here of jumping from "This political view is more common outside the West" to "A person from outside the West would view this action as reasonable".

  I'll quote something I said to Panda in -unblock in September: I definitely empathize with having strong political views. / I also generally believe that if one's going to be very vocal about one's views, one should own up to the consequences / ... / A parting thought ... from a fellow radical: If you can't handle the consequences of taking a stand for a cause, don't. Their current approach is closer to what I'd need to see than their past what-did-I-even-do-wrong approach was. But it's still missing the point, I think. They need to show they understand that Wikipedia should not be used to further political ends, no matter how much you think you're right. Either way, I'll reserve judgment pending a proper community unblock request. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 17:46, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

  "Reasonable" is kind of a straw man, isn't it? I never implied that - I don't think anyone has - and I've never disagreed with the block itself. I do think that a productive editor making a similar protest against, say, Vladmir Putin or Xi Jinping would have been more likely to have been unblocked in less than 1 year. Floquenbeam (talk) 18:11, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, "reasonable" was the wrong word there. I'm not sure the right one, though. Either way, something that can be settled at a later unblock request, depending on what exactly Panda says. I'm definitely not hard against unblocking. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 18:18, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose unblock for now until we see the appeal. Scorpions13256 (talk) 08:27, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Substantial backlog at AIV

Hi! There's a several hour-old backlog at AIV. I'm dealing with an IP that's vandalized a couple dozen articles in this timespan. Can someone pop over and take care of things quickly? ~ Pbritti (talk) 21:45, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, all. It’s being resolved! ~ Pbritti (talk) 21:55, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

...And it's backlogged again. Taking Out The Trash (talk) 15:31, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Aman.kumar.goel

Please check the edit history on this link. Aman.kumar.goel has violated 3RR, not assuming good faith, casting aspersions without a shred of evidence and trying to hide his own meatpuppetry. 07:22, 13 August 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.34.148.235 (talk)

I won't be notifying the user because he is going to remove this too. 07:23, 13 August 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.34.148.235 (talk)

You are a ban evading sock of Oriental Aristocrat. Anyone who can compare these two diffs[4][5] will say the same.

You already know that blocked socks like you are not allowed to edit while everyone else (including me) are required to revert you on sight per WP:DENY. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 07:25, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Since Aman.kumar.goel is aware of this discussion it doesn't matter any more, but you really should have notified them. It doesn't matter if they remove the notification, they are entitled to per WP:OWNTALK. The whole point of the notification is to make them aware of this discussion, and we assume when someone removes something they read it enough to know what it's about. If they don't, well that's on them. Instead you put the fault if Aman.kumar.goel didn't become aware of this discussion on yourself. Nil Einne (talk) 12:25, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

I think they meant remove the ANI thread. Moot now. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 01:05, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Now the user has started WP: FOLLOWING me. Maybe, after seeing the diffs, the admins come to a conclusion that you infact are part of a meat cabal. But that's for the admins to decide. Further, you can't go around accusing people without proof and without filing a SPI. First you accused me of being Liborbital and now are accusing me of being Oriental Aristocrat. Which of the two is it? If you yourself are so innocent, what are you afraid of?? Volunteer for a CU check and let the admins look into your conduct thus far. 39.34.148.235 (talk) 07:55, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

• IP blocked 2 weeks for harassment, per "I have all day to expose you and your cabal". Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 12:47, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Tfd discussion on the unblock templates: Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2023_August_11#Unblock_templates

As the unblock templates are well used I feel an AN notification is necessary for a tfd whose outcome would produce such a large effect. Lavalizard101 (talk) 11:03, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

AE stalled

At WP:AE there have been no substantive comments from any admins other than me in the past 5 days. There's 5 open threads, in 5 different ethnonational dispute topic areas, which may have something to do with that. But if anyone has time to wade in to one or two, it would be appreciated. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 18:29, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

I'll try and dig up some time to look into some of them, but I've been severely busy recently. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:37, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Movement Charter Consultations - Firm Need for Additional Feedback

Hello all,

I'm posting more prominently here as I believe a significant portion of the potentially interested community hasn't seen the comms routes taken thus far, and we'd expect to have seen significantly more en-wiki comments than we have to date.

Consultation focus: The Movement Charter Drafting Committee (MCDC) published two additional chapters, and one "proto-chapter": Roles & responsibilities, Global Council, and Hubs. An interim glossary was also published.

Consultation Link: Movement Charter consultation

Direct links:

1. Global Council
2. Roles & Responsibilities
3. Hubs
4. Glossary

There are two action points:

1. Feedback: Every single thing within these published documents is up for questions, comments, advice, criticism, suggestions and more. Please post on the relevant page and, as you would here, suggested solutions with criticism are even more useful.
2. Open Questions: Each of these also has several "open questions" - areas where there isn't a current draft option, but instead several proposed alternatives or open topics we specifically need opinions on. These include things like restrictions on Global Council membership, role in fund dissemination etc etc.