User talk:PamD/Archive 4

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Segugio dell'Appennino


please, could you take a look here? Greetings, --Mparu (msg) 18:46, 7 February 2011 (UTC)


By the way, thanks for all the links and all for these last 3 articles. I feel like I have a persona guardian who watches over me. Cheers. History2007 (talk) 20:10, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Me too, and for a different set of articles. It is appreciated, and the finished product is much improved by it. Thanks! Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 14:27, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Kind words much appreciated! I spend quite a bit of time stub-sorting, and tend to do more than just that while I've got the article up on screen if I can see other little improvements to make. PamD (talk) 19:33, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Speaking of thanks...

Working Man's Barnstar.png The Working Wikipedian's Barnstar
PamD, thank you again for those many, many edits that few people see but everyone benefits from. Drmies (talk) 16:56, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
  • That's kind of you - thanks! I just wikignome away, mostly stub-sorting and letting it lead me on to other wikification and so on. PamD (talk) 17:48, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

About Choi Young-Il and Choi Young-Il - thank you!

Hi PamD - thanks for sorting that all out - most appreciated!--Shirt58 (talk) 11:05, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Boxford Primary School

Hello PamD, I've left you a message at User talk:Lavalamp from Mars#Boxford Primary School. Lavalamp from Mars (talk) 10:33, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

TB Absurdity and RIdiculousness at my talk page

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re TB Absurdity and RIdiculousness at my talk page. PPdd (talk) 17:21, 13 February 2011 (UTC)


Hi! Out of curiosity, would you be open to considering a run at adminship? I would be interested in nominating you. --Strikerforce (talk) 11:29, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the compliment. I wonder which of my edits have come to your notice? I've been asked a couple of times before to consider applying for adminship, but I still prefer not to - I can do almost everything I want to on Wikipedia without, and can avoid the angst and drama involved in WP:RfA and subsequent arguments! PamD (talk) 12:10, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
PS: Good luck with the ongoing attempts to give blood - I'm going for donation number 72 this afternoon. PamD (talk)

A Change to Support?

In an effort to turn our interactions more positive, I'd like to invite you to be a pro-active and productive member of the project! Perhaps you could make yourself a project leader and take on some component you find most important. To do this, simply sign up on our member page.

I'd very much like to make our interactions more productive and am interested in finding a positive way to do this.

Here's an idea: why don't you create a list of public art in the town you live or that your originally from, or that you just like. In your list, make it of all of things you think about how public art should or shouldn't be represented in Wikipedia:
Once you've done that, make articles for all of the artworks that fit your criteria of notability, or make one large article about all of the artworks in the city.
It would be great for others to see you as productive member of WikiProject Public Art, rather than one of the project's ongoing critic!
I worry that your approach will de-incentive others to get involved, especially since many of the members are new, and they don't like to get bit. --RichardMcCoy (talk) 18:44, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
Richard, I have no particular interest in public art (though I created one moderate-sized article in the field, The Boy with the Leaking Boot). I do a lot of Wiki-Gnome work, and while stub-sorting I first encountered your project. My interests are in the encyclopedia as a whole, and it is not obvious at present that the public art project sits happily within it. User:Johnbod has put it more fully. Please do not accuse me of harassment because I ask simple questions, query notability, discuss the current rule about italic titles, etc. No-one replied to my point at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Public_art#lead_sentence_.22Title_of_Artwork.2C_is_a_public_artwork_....22, except Johnbod to reiterate the question. You see my input as criticism and harassment: I see it as a serious question, perhaps reflecting questions about the overall contribution the project's articles make to the encyclopedia. All projects need input from editors who have broader interests, as well as from dedicated subject specialists. I am not sure that the Project's goals as set out at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Public_art are actually compatible with the goals of the encyclopedia. I will continue to make what edits and comments I wish to, in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, for the benefit of the encyclopedia. PamD (talk) 08:59, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
Quite so! Pam, I think you've seen the equivalent section on my talk page, but I'll link it in case not. I don't see the project as having fundamental problems sitting within WP, but as short on internal experience of wikiways in some areas, and much too hostile to outsiders. Johnbod (talk) 14:04, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I'd seen it, thanks. I worry about their viewpoint, that something "is a piece of public art" rather than being a sculpture / mural / etc. The question of scope seems important - do they include sculptures in/on/associated with churches/temples/etc, for example? What about art works created for public space (church(?), town hall, square, etc) and now in private hands? And of course vice versa - items created for a private owner in private space and now visible in a public space. How do sculptures in National Trust / English Heritage gardens, or privately-owned gardens like Blenheim Palace, fit in? Does something become public art when the garden is opened to the public (fee or free?) (regularly or once a year?)? I'm sure someone could draw up a spectrum of public-ness and draw a line, but I don't see it. And there are huge notability issues. One day an arch-deletionist will find the project and the fur will fly! The project seems to aim to use Wikipedia to create awareness of public art, rather than creating encyclopedia articles about notable entities. It'll be interesting to watch progress. PamD (talk) 14:34, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry you are not interested in joining the project, PamD. To be clear, I only suggested Johnbod was harassing members of the project to no productive end, no you. Your edits and thoughts have been productive and helpful.--RichardMcCoy (talk) 14:46, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, one of your colleagues disagrees and has just told me I'm "nitpicking with us and pointing fingers and treating us like children". See User_talk:HstryQT#Category:Public_art_stubs. PamD (talk) 14:52, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I can only speak directly for myself and again say that it was Johnbod that was engaging in harassing tactics to no productive end. Many members of the project have worked hard to get new people interested working in WP (often the very demographic the Foundation is trying to engage) so there is a sensitivity to the issue. Again, I can only say I've appreciated your help and productivity with the project. Thanks.--RichardMcCoy (talk) 15:05, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

As for the harassing part, I have to agree. He's been following me for years now and that with a marked self-righteous attitude. Guess that is almost inevitable in someone whose epic-long edit history reveals him wasting literally his whole life on Wiki. That is sad but the really sad thing is that it is the productive members who have to suffer from these obsessed who can't loose up because they have demonstrably no life. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 10:22, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Well he has obviously ruffled your feathers. There seem to be some interesting personalities around the fine art area, as it's pretty much the only place I've been attacked as I was by User:HstryQT (she deleted my interaction from her talk page rather than give any diffs to illustrate her claims when I asked for them - but it left a very nasty taste). My only contacts with JohnBod suggest that he is an extremely knowledgeable editor - knowledgeable both about art and about Wikipedia. I don't know the history of your interactions with him (it could well be that his "self-righteous attitude" is an attempt to follow Wikipedia's policies, which some editors find irksome), but my talk page is not the place to insult other Wikipedians. PamD (talk) 13:12, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Richard Wainwright's pre-Westminster occupation

PamD, my claim for his profession of accountancy is from the obituaries back in 2003. The Independent, Michael Meadowcroft in The Guardian and the Telegraph all specify accountancy. The Wikipedia article on Wainwright does say that his early career was as a merchant banker, but the claim is unsourced. What evidence can you cite for reverting my edit? Philip Cross (talk) 19:24, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

You had not referenced your information, and I didn't think the information (whether banking or accountancy) was particularly relevant in his son's biog - Richard was notable as a Liberal MP. Richard's article is almost entirely unsourced (perhaps with your 3 articles to hand you could improve both its content and its sourcing?), and I realise I'd made the mistake of using it as my source. I've replaced accountancy, but listed after the politics - as the Independent obit has it. Reasonable compromise? PamD (talk) 23:55, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Have added the 3 obits as "External links" to RW article - would be useful starting point for anyone wanting to check/source it. PamD (talk) 00:17, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Leeds Cathedral

Pam D

The reason I changed it was to standardise all the pages re Roman Catholic cathedrals in the UK. If you don't understand my reasons you're not a Catholic ;¬p

God bless

Ulysses54 (talk) 20:45, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

You're right: I don't understand your reasons, I'm not a Catholic, and I think Wikipedia is better served by articles which have the article title in the lead sentence. Has there been any discussion of this standardisation, or is it just your own preference? PamD (talk) 08:10, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Minto Stone

Hello PamD,

"Please note that {{stub}} goes at the end of the article, after everything except interwiki links, per WP:LAYOUT, not at the top. And it doesn't take parameters."

OK, thanks for the information. I'm not too familiar with these aspects of Wikipedia. :-)

"Also, I imagine you found the newspaper references online (unless it's your personal press cuttings file) - so why not make them into links to the online sources? Only very few readers will be able to follow up the information in The Southern Reporter in hard copy, but they can all (now) click a link and read the detail there. Please link to online sources when they are available. Thanks."

Done, including for the reading reference.

"But, more interestingly - what happened next? Googling finds me no mention of the stone after 2008. Do you know anything more? PamD (talk) 09:29, 28 February 2011 (UTC)"

I must confess I have no idea of the outcome. The Indonesian WP article only says that discussions are under progress... :-) Humboldt 10:02, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter - March 2011

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California Comprehensive Computer Data Access and Fraud Act

thanks! Decora (talk) 15:33, 6 March 2011 (UTC)


I think your edits on this disambiguation page were unnecessary and complicate WP. My original page followed WP:DPAGES well. But I won't argue with you over your edits, not worth it. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT PRAISE 23:49, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I was brought to that set of pages (Pilat etc) by one of them being in Category:Disambiguation pages in need of cleanup, so another editor clearly agreed that all was not well. The large number of people with surname "Pilat" were certainly inappropriate in a dab page, particularly here where there already existed a separate page for the surname. PamD (talk) 08:31, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

SCEA v. Hotz

My apologies for misleading you into tagging my new article with CSD:G7

I took a dinner break while in the midst of editing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shentino (talkcontribs) 10:24, 11 March 2011 (UTC)


As you wish. But FYI, he is generally referred to, and cited as, H. G. Andrewartha. Pdfpdf (talk) 17:07, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I think all scientists are cited by their initials, surely. But the encyclopedia calls him "Herbert". I wonder about Browning - is he really best at T. O. ? Makes it more difficult to find him (is that "T.O." or "T O " or "T. O."?) Wikipedia uses <firstname> <lastname> unless there is a good reason not to. PamD (talk) 17:12, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
Look at Category:Australian entomologists, where he's the only one with initials. PamD (talk) 17:15, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
And this suggests we need a redirect from Tom B. PamD (talk) 17:20, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

OK, I'm convinced. Pdfpdf (talk) 00:25, 12 March 2011 (UTC) (However, I'll warn you that as I don't like "John Mark Doe", and don't particularly like "J. M. Doe", it wouldn't take much to convince me on this topic. Pdfpdf (talk) 00:25, 12 March 2011 (UTC))

Nous and intelligences

Thanks for your note!

  • Yes, I have only recently started work on the nous article but I was aware that to make any sense it needs to include discussion about the multiple intelligences, and making sure the connections and distinctions are more clear. The current article is too esoteric.
  • There were indeed multiple forms of nous which eventually came to be proposed in late classical and medieval times (active intellect, passive intellect, material intellect, acquired intellect etc), and the concept of there being several might one day need to be split out for discussion, however the article you found appears to be about intelligence in the modern psychological sense.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:31, 12 March 2011 (UTC)


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Stanley knife

I learn something new everyday around here! Thanks for adding that citation!--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 23:41, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Littlebrook school

Thanks for your help. I will ad more to the article. Could you put in one of those boxes with the schools information. I can add the information if you could add the box.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Hashbron (talkcontribs) 17:30, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Patricia de Leon

Thanks. -Maile66 (talk) 23:50, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

People sections on two-letter disambiguations pages

Hi. The PM page contained a People section before I added more. Plenty of precedent: see AJ (split out), TJ (mixed in)... all part of the massive disorganization and lack of standards across these pages. I'll weigh in on the discussion once I see where you start it. Thanks for the heads up. Jokestress (talk) 08:33, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

What do you mean, Julius Adler has inadequate references?

Hello, I feel unjustly criticized by your comment that Adler may not meet notability requirements (gee, not as important as some baseball player in Idaho?) and that the references are inadequate. I translated from the Yiddish theater lexicon for this, it's generally regarded as a very respectable source. Please answer if possible on my talk page as I am not sure I'd see if you answered here. Jane Peppler (talk) 21:57, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi Jane, it wasn't me who added the "notability" tag to the page, nor the "refimprove". You can check all this by looking at the page history.
I moved the page - the disambiguation was more detailed than necessary. I also ensured that anyone looking for "Julius Adler" could actually find this page - in this case by creating a disambiguation page, sometimes it would have been appropriate to add a WP:HATNOTE instead, but please remember to do one of these when you create a page with a title with a disambiguation in brackets.
I did add "Wikify" to this page: not only does it need more links (eg to his birthplace, and the theatres mentioned), but it also needs improvements to the layout, most particularly turning the opening non-sentence "Born in.." into a proper Wikipedia lead sentence of the form "Name (dates) was a (nationality) (occupation).", as I explained carefully on your talk page in relation to Zina Goldstein.
I prefer to keep conversations intact on this page - you can add it to your Watchlist so that you are alerted to any reply - but I'll give you a "talkback" notification. PamD (talk) 08:32, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Your criticism of the Hymie Jacobson article.

Saying something needs to be wikified is pretty vague. I do not understand what you want here. And again, there are precious few articles to link this too as far as I can see. You have discouraged me quite a bit today. Jane Peppler (talk) 22:05, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry to have discouraged you. Because I spend a lot of time stub-sorting I came across several of your new articles. I had already put the opening sentence into proper Wikipedia style (was the original opening translated verbatim from your source, I wonder? If so, please watch out for copyright issues.) The article needed links to the various towns in his life, which another editor has since made,also to Yiddish and vaudeville. Were none of the theatres he performed in worthy of a Wikipedia article, either existing or future? (There's nothing the matter with red links to notable entities). What about Nahum Stutchkoff? PamD (talk) 07:46, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
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change Jean-jacques menais by Jyjou*

Hallo, You seem to have created a duplicate article by copying the contents of Jean-Jacques Menais, but we only need one article about one person. I've made Jyjou into a "redirect". If you think the article ought to be at the title "Jyjou" instead of at his full name, use the "Move" procedure (which is hidden under the drop-down menu to the left of the search box). PamD (talk) 16:43, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Jyjou* ( is the artist name, that' s it which is important not jean-jacques Menais i tried to change, but no succes, i have not the button move procedure ?!can you do it ? thank you Naisme (talk) 12:04, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Done it - OK, bien, c'est fait. PamD (talk) 13:01, 31 March 2011 (UTC)


In my extended role as a Wiki Guide, I have responded to User talk:Jane Peppler#Watchlist. Your interplay with her is commendable and in the spirit of fellowship (Are we all "fellows"?). I think the best way to teach and to learn is by example. If she is wise, she will follow your lead. If not she may continue to be discouraged. Buster Seven Talk 15:52, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

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Hi Pam! I noted your reversion of the edit by XKaTiEz, as a vandalism edit. I don't believe that was vandalism! The edit simply changed the precedence of measurment to use Imperial measurements with the conversion template giving the Metric measurement second, which is okay in an English based location article. Note UK roadsign's are in Miles not Kilometres. ;) Richard Harvey (talk) 09:53, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

I've got nothing against using traditional measurements, and WP:MOSNUM allows either for UK distances while prefering metric, but you need to have another look at the figures she input! She changed 80 metres to 690ft. That's vandalism. PamD (talk) 17:05, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
I must admit that at first glance my tired eyes just spotted the 69 and as 70 Metres is the height of the river banking I thought it to be only one out! However you are right in that the measurement is incorrect. Taking a closer look at my OS maps I see that both 80M and 100M for both measurements are incorrect, so I will alter the article accordingly. Richard Harvey (talk) 09:21, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

John Gioia

Hi there,

Please notice that per WP:PROD an article can only be proposed for deletion once. Please check the page history prior to proposing an article for deletion in the future. If you wish to contest the PROD removal, you may take the article to articles for deletion. Regards, MacMedtalkstalk 05:30, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, forgot he'd already been PRODded. Still seems distinctly un-notable local elected official just doing local stuff, but I'll leave it at that. PamD (talk) 07:27, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
But have just spent some time cleaning it up somewhat. PamD (talk) 07:43, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

John Gioia

Please don't delete this article on John Gioia please do a basic google search to see how notable he is. In any case no more prods, take it to AfD, a place I know it will survive but I don't want to have to be looking over my shoulder, make sense? LA Times, SF Chronicle, SJ Mercury. Contra Costa Times. Richmond Confidential. El Cerrito Patch. West County Times. KTVU News. Sites dedicated to opposing him. Sites that praise him. His political profile. Major, Regional, Local and many other sources are available. He is notable. (talk) 06:31, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

See above. PamD (talk) 07:27, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

No Fit/nofit state

The main reason I created the 'no fit' article was due to a search popping up a redlink to the page with that spelling. It never occurred to me to check the alternate nofit spelling or that there might have been a nofit page - thanks for your help, I was planning to get back to doing a bit more work on the page later today, and I'd probably have found the redirect eventually. I'll go have a look and see if there is anything on the nofit page. EdwardLane (talk) 14:29, 12 April 2011 (UTC) and yes I think it's great name regardless of spelling options :) EdwardLane (talk) 14:29, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

editing user talk pages

The material you removed as vandalism from my talk page might well be a simple question asked in the wrong place for some reason I admit I do not understad, and , AGF, I prefer to deal with such myself. But in general, regardless of my personal preferences, please be very careful about not using the word "vandalism" in edit summaries when you mean "error". DGG ( talk ) 17:12, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I shouldn't have touched your page. But it looked suspect as the newbie editor had deleted a section discussing vandalism on a page, and I'm afraid that for once I didn't AGF but assumed it was a pseudo-naive interference with that discussion. Should have left it to you to decide and fix. Hmm, 2.25 this afternoon ... yes, Mother had probably been getting on my nerves so that I was in uncharitable mood. PamD (talk) 21:33, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
it's ok, usually it's clear, but sometimes it can be very hard to tell from someone's first edit. DGG ( talk ) 22:35, 12 April 2011 (UTC)


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Pancreatic acinar metaplasia

I've expanded the article. It is probably quite dense... but it is a thingy that isn't so well understood. Nephron  T|C 02:57, 16 April 2011 (UTC)


Sorry! I added the signature again after you deleted it. Actually I hadn't read you edit summary. Apologies! GaneshBhakt (talk) 11:32, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

leslie bonnet and joan hutt

thanks pam

both articles read much better

best wishes

rob Atenstaedt (talk) 21:02, 16 April 2011 (UTC)


I do several thousands fixes a month, so mistakes are going to creep in occasionally. I try my best to avoid them but sometimes its not possible. I apologize for the mistake. --User:Woohookitty Disamming fool! 23:54, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of Rógvi Holm for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Rógvi Holm is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rógvi Holm until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. GiantSnowman 23:31, 17 April 2011 (UTC)


you have some idea how to handle this. Tijfo098 (talk) 08:18, 22 April 2011 (UTC)


Thanks for stalking. I may rely on your expertise often in the future. Buster Seven Talk 15:29, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

It seems as if you have made the change you suggested on User: Buster7's talk page? Since we're on the subject, I see that the article (actually the original article, Montessori Method) was flagged for NPOV. Since the article has been entirely re-written, is it possible to get that removed? Is there a procedure I can initiate? Thanks again, Dave Ayer (talk) 17:21, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Wondering whether...

... User:Aa42john (earliest contribution 11/11/2009) might perhaps be User:Johnbibby (blocked 20/6/2009)? --GuillaumeTell 17:28, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Certainly a lot of similarities - professional field, location, middle east interests... approach to copyright, level of care in editing... oh and choice of forename, of course! I note that he was asked whether he had had a previous editor name and has so far not answered. PamD (talk) 20:16, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
... and that his first edit was to create John Bibby (ship): me, I keep PAM, Pamela and PD on my watchlist, and I imagine a lot of editors are interestd in their namesakes! Nothing conclusive, but makes you wonder all the more! PamD (talk) 20:16, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
Have a look at this! --GuillaumeTell 21:05, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
Yes, looks convincing. Are you going to take it further? PamD (talk) 21:19, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
I'll sleep on it. I'm guessing that he's in his 70s. I notice that one-line articles and blatant copyvios still feature - see, for example, St John's in the Marsh church (York) and Advisory_Committee_on_Mathematics_Education. Is WP:ANI the best route? Or I could contact the blocking admin. --GuillaumeTell 21:50, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
Age 66 or 67 (! He's a good faith editor, just tiresomely sloppy - I seem to have left various notes on his talk page(s), arising from stub-sorting his creations (and taking the Meek Family to AfD). Contacting the blocking admin might be a useful route. PamD (talk) 22:09, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
Just off for the weekend - will see any developments when I'm next on-Wiki, probably Mon or Tues. PamD (talk) 07:50, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Sarah T. Bolton

I found a nice portrait of Sarah T. Bolton, and added it to the stub article you started. I hope you don't mind. --I NEVER CRY 02:47, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

That's great, thanks. Feel free to expand the article as much as you like: I just created it because it seemed odd to have an article about the commemorative relief while there was nothing about the woman herself! PamD (talk) 07:27, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I put a bit of work in on it today. I'm glad you started it.--I NEVER CRY 23:53, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Regarding Panj Peer

Dear Sir, Panj Peer or the Panj Pir (The five saints) are mentioned in the Punjabi literature's great romantic epic Heer-Ranjha. Heer Ranjha was written by Mian Waris Shah of Pakistan. It has been translated in many languages. Ranjha (The main Hero) was blessed by the five Great Saints of the time. These are same five great saints. —Preceding unsigned comment added by IAS JSINGH (talkcontribs) 18:03, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter - May 2011

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Notability tag

Hey, I noticed that you tagged John Carter (1741-1808) for notability. Just so you know in the future, politicians with significant responsibility, such as mayors like Carter, are always notable except when their jurisdiction is extremely insignificant (such as town councils) or they have no coverage in secondary sources. Portsmith is quite an important jurisdiction :P See Wikipedia:Notability_(people). Happy editing! Sadads (talk) 10:52, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

100 Grand Jin

please do not delete 100 Grand Jin. It is needed as it is an album and the only search result for "100 Grand Jin". it will be worked on over time because it wikipedia is such a complex and time taking thing. Jmwikiacc (talk) 21:19, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Don't tell me, comment at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/100_Grand_Jin. PamD (talk) 21:35, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Merge discussion for Winterbourne, Gloucestershire

Information.svg An article that you have been involved in editing, Winterbourne, Gloucestershire , has been proposed for a merge with another article. If you are interested in the merge discussion, please participate by going here, and adding your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Skinsmoke (talk) 10:29, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Derventio (Little Chester)

Maybe.. you could offer some advice here on how to sort out the naming. We need a new article on Roman Derby, that embraces Icknield Street- Strutt's Park Roman fort, Derby Racecourse Roman settlement and Little Chester Roman fort- now Derventio (Little Chester).There are messages on the talkpages- and links to online references which reveal much misinformation and confusion. User:Andrew Dalby is the real expert here. The big question is what should each of these articles be called. I have objections but few positive suggestions. Icknield Street is probably the right name- though in Derby it is Rykneild Street and its course is unknown, Strutt's Park Roman fort is probably right but there is a nagging issue over the apostrophe. Derby Racecourse Roman settlement is up for grabs- it is probably a later vicus, but the Roman fort at Little Chester la:Derventio (Derbia) in Latin is confused with a Roman town of which it was in 2 periods of history a part. Anyway Derventio (Little Chester) seems to be wrongly disamb'ed.

Maybe you have suggestions.--ClemRutter (talk) 20:46, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Expert is putting it too strong! All I've done is added some bibliography to the articles; but most of that stuff isn't on line and I don't have access to it. I agree with Clem: suggestions welcome. Andrew Dalby 13:25, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Problems I face contributing to Wikipedia

Dear Sir, I have a good collection of authentic Material on Punjabi Literature, Linguistics (which are still untouched by wiki), which I wish to share with Wikipedia users. I dont know how to creat new articles/link them with others or other basic things. What makes the situation even Worse is the fact that I usually have very less time (even to read & grasp "how to pages" of Wiki).

I don't want any credit for my contributions. So I wish to provide materials without any condition, so that you (If possible) can post them for the benefit of future generations of Students. I can provide the Topics (with easy explanation, Reference books, sources etc.) by mail/or any other source if possible. Thanks IAS JSINGH (talk) 14:35, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Rhonda Smith page

thank you for your assistance. I learn more every day. Dreadfullyboring (talk) 18:07, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter - June 2011

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→ Newsletter delivered by ENewsBot (info) · 03:37, 19 June 2011 (UTC)


I am a bit surprised that it is not possible to e-mail you. OK, most of the Wikipedia-related e-mails that I receive should have been dealt with via my talk page. But there are a few matters too sensitive for that route and I have one currently which I would like to send to you. — [[::User:RHaworth|RHaworth]] ([[::User talk:RHaworth|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/RHaworth|contribs]]) 22:53, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I've been away for a couple of weeks, just seen this. I've never seen any need for email contact in connection with WP, so thought it best not to enable it, but have now done so in case you still want to contact me. If I find it being used irrelevantly I'll close it down again - I'll be interested to see how much it gets used. PamD (talk) 17:27, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Lancaster, on Commons

Hi- sorry to drag you across the Pennines but I am trying to make sense of the Commons:Lancaster, Lancashire category tree. And before I add to the mess I thought I needed an experts opinion. I find there is no Commons:Lancaster - Commons:House of Lancaster exists and was linked back to Commons:Lancaster, Lancashire. My instinct is to model it on Commons:York but is there a better way? Where does one start? Any advice welcome. --ClemRutter (talk) 09:55, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Sue Lost in Manhattan

Hi! Thanks for the link to WP:NCF and for all the clean-up. I'm a bit confused. Next time, I shall do better. Au plaisir, --Wikinade (talk) 19:07, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Nihal Sri Ameresekere

Hi, as a senior editor, I need your feedback on the above subject. I have recreated the article Nihal Sri Ameresekere as there are more than 50 hits on the Google News for Nihal Sri Ameresekere to establish his notability.EconomicTiger (talk) 08:54, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter - July 2011

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→ Newsletter delivered by ENewsBot (info) · 22:47, 11 July 2011 (UTC)


Why are you criticizing me of a disambiguation page? I didn't know what I did was wrong and I don't see why they're wasting people's time. A person who has been editing Wikipedia since Thursday, October 28, 2010. 16:47, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Charlie Brown (DJ)

Thanks for your help. I don't know why there's no biography that has these details, but I did use a newspaper article dated February 2006 which said he was 65. And it wasn't really about him.Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 20:34, 21 July 2011 (UTC)


Hey sorry for deleting that thing earlier; I really did appreciate it, and it was an accidental deletion. I'll replace it as soon as possible, probably on Monday, because with device I have right now, I currently have no Copy + Paste capabilities. Thanks! Connormlh (talk) 01:16, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Hey, sorry again to bother, but would you still like me to replace it? I'm still not sure, because you didn't respond. Let me know and I'll do it ASAP. Thanks! Connormlh (talk) 18:54, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
I didn't reply because I don't know what "thing" you're talking about here, so assumed that you'd accidentally left a message here intended for someone else! Could you clarify? thanks. PamD (talk) 20:54, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Contradictions to Classification of Phinehas Priests

People will also find contradictions in the book, The Phinehas Priesthood, by Danny W. Davis. Davis points out that since many classify Phinehas Priests as "Lone Wolves", and in that by doing so, refutes by definition, an attempt to classify by groups. <P.4, The Phinehas Priesthood, Violent Vanguard of the Christian Identity Movement, Danny W. Davis>Curtjohnsen (talk) 01:00, 26 July 2011 (UTC)Curtis J.

Category:Places in Leeds

I'm contemplating an article on St Saviour, Ellerby Road, which is located in The Bank according to Wrathmell, Leach and Pevsner, but discover that there's no article on that area. I decided that The Bank is pretty much in the Richmond Hill area, but was extremely surprised to discover that the RH article is Richmond Hill, West Yorkshire. Further investigations revealed that a name-change from the much more sensible Richmond Hill, Leeds was instigated by KeithD in March 2008. He said at User talk:Hans Adler/Archive 2 "The dab on this should be West Yorkshire, as it was, this is as per the normal naming convention for UK places. Locations should normally use the County for dab and only go to a district or other local name when there is more than a one of the same name in a County. We should not be lining up with others which may be wrong but rather renaming the others in line with the normal convention."

However, looking at Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)#England, I discover:

"For localities requiring disambiguation:
...[snip]... For localities unambiguously located within a town/city settlement (according to reliable, external sources) "placename, town/city" is used. For example, within the borough of Milton Keynes, for localities in the defined new city area "placename, Milton Keynes" is used, as with Bradwell, Milton Keynes. Localities within the borough but outside the city area continue to be disambiguated by ceremonial county, as with Olney, Buckinghamshire."

Presumably the rule that Keith was quoting has been superseded by the above much more sensible statement. But Category:Places in Leeds has a real mishmash of article titles - Bramley, Buslingthorpe, Chapeltown, Hawksworth, Manston, Middleton, Moortown, Richmond Hill, Stourton and Wortley are all "'West Yorkshire'" (I'm not sure about Farnley, Rodley and Shadwell), and one or two of the ",Leeds" articles, e.g. Adel, Colton, certainly Walton, should perhaps be WY? Then there are the places with suffixes Wetherby, Rothwell, Wharfedale and Pudsey! Plus the articles with sub-cats shouldn't be in the list of articles as well as the list of subcats.

Anyway, I'd be happy to sort all this out, but I thought I'd run it past you first. I'll get on to Keith if I'm prevented moving some articles. Do you have any thoughts on the above (especially the "not sures")? NB I also noticed that the NSEW location maps appear on some articles but not all. I altered a few that were inaccurate or linked to dab pages. And there are some strange articles not mentioned above: Blenheim, Leeds and Moorside, Leeds spring to mind.... --GuillaumeTell 21:55, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

  • There's also the list at List of places in Leeds to consider - and the interesting fact that it has about 135 entries, while the category has 165 (excluding the list): so 31 or so entries should possibly be added to the list! I'd almost forgotten that list - but I think I'm still quite proud of it, as it brings together quite a lot of information in sortable fields. And I've just checked and found that all three of its references are still good links despite the council's tendency to rearrange their website.
I can't summon up a lot of enthusiasm for details of Leeds place articles at the moment: partly because I'm very rarely there (still looking after Mother), partly in case it reopens the ghastly "Leeds or City of Leeds" rows of the past. But certainly agree that ", Leeds" is better than ", West Yorkshire" for places which are definitely in the city (like Buslingthorpe, West Yorkshire!). (I used to have plans to try and expand that one.) I suspect that the phrase "unambiguously located within a town/city settlement (according to reliable, external sources)" is still capable of generating angry discussions in and around Leeds, so good luck with it! The rules seem to have changed in Nov 2010 after lengthy discussion which I don't remember being aware of (so perhaps wasn't on the UK WP noticeboard? Or I just didn't follow it up).
Good luck with it all! PamD (talk) 23:06, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
Update: I've moved all the offending West Yorkshire suffixs to Leeds without any comeback from anyone, and done a bit of tidying. I then turned to the List of places in Leeds and made a list of places that aren't in that list but are in the category. 12 of them are kosher as far as I can see: Ainsty, Wetherby, Beeston Hill, Carlton, Wharfedale, Fearnville, Holbeck Urban Village, Knowsthorpe (created by you!), Lincoln Green, Lovell Park, Manston, Leeds, Pendas Fields (should be Penda's?), Potterton, West Yorkshire, Stourton, Leeds, two are rather dubious (Cranmer Bank and Sturton Grange), and there are a further 15 non-notable one-liners culled from the West Yorkshire A-Z by a certain person (ranging alphabetically from Alwoodley Park to Woodhouse Carr) which I'm planning to put up for AfD.
I could try adding the first 12 to the List unless you'd like to do so? I removed Temple Newsam from the list because it isn't a place, even if it is a ward.
Comments welcome. --GuillaumeTell 17:29, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Looks good so far. I'd notice TN disappearing from the list - probably right. (I seem to remember that the article was about the area rather than the house/park, back in the mirks of time.) OK, I'll have a go at adding the 12 to the list (will have to remind myself how it worked, but cut and paste will get it sorted). Not sure about your 2 dubious ones - if in doubt, might as well add. (cf Airebrough!) Not right now - tea nearly ready. (Mother prefers to eat around 6pm, but we're late tonight!). PamD (talk) 17:49, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Oof, I'd forgotten how much work it was to add some places (verging on WP:OR I suppose by the time I've used the council site to get from a postcode to a ward name etc where the article is lacking an infobox or other useful stuff). Not at all sure about Knowsthorpe/Knostropp: it definitely exists/existed, and is on OS map, but not sure exactly where! Some discussion at . I've added the 12 + 2 places to the list, but only put in full details for the first five and then ran out of energy. Feel free to continue the work! Cheers, PamD (talk) 21:56, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Did a bit more on it today, then got distracted from Stourton, Leeds onto improving that article and then creating Yorkshire Imperial Band. Hmm, that's wikipedia! PamD (talk) 23:15, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
You may have noticed that I first PRODded and then dePRODded Jaw Hill, having found a RS for the archaeology stuff. I've been trying to work out whether it's actually in the City of Leeds and drawing a blank - can't work out where the boundary is on my 2 1/2 inch (or metric equivalent) map. It's awfully close to Kirkhamgate (Wakefield) but not far from the Ardsleys (Leeds) and not that far away from Batley (Kirklees). Oh well! The other thing is that it isn't exactly a place, it's a hill, so I'm wondering whether, if it is in Leeds, it ought to be in this Cat. (I looked at what needs doing to try to fill in the gaps in the table, but my head started to hurt!) --GuillaumeTell 00:08, 29 July 2011 (UTC)


Hi. Please tell me why you tagged List of insurance topics as PROD. An editor since 10.28.2010. 20:10, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Were you not looking out for any replies at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Disambiguation#Insurance, where I replied to you? And also, if you look at the page history you can see my rationale in the version where I PRODded it (at this point it still had its old title of "Insurance (disambiguation)"). PamD (talk) 20:18, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
No, I was not looking for replies there. I didn't know that the discussion page of List of insurance topics was at Wikiproject: Disambiguation. Thanks again, An editor since 10.28.2010. 20:23, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

A Cassandra: person or situation?

Unless I'm wrong, a Cassandra (metaphor) is not a situation; it's a person. The article may have been slightly misread or it may be misleadingly written, but if you read it closely, it says that the word is used in situations of a particular type, but it doesn't say that a Cassandra is a situation. People call people Cassandras in certain situations. They don't call certain situations Cassandras. It's not all that different from the term "Chicken Little". Like if I come up to you and start warning you of some impending doom, and you treat me dismissively, you might say, "Chris, don't be such a Cassandra." You wouldn't say "Hey, this situation is a Cassandra." Chrisrus (talk) 21:21, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree: to me a "Cassandra" is a person whose warnings are ignored, not a situation. (I don't think it would be used quite as you suggest - more likely that after your dire prophecies had happened someone would say "Chris was the Cassandra, he suggested x might happen and we wouldn't believe him.") The article seems curiously opaque on this. I've tweaked the dab page and hope you agree it's an improvement. The article has a long talk page history, quite beyond my sphere of knowledge, and I hope the dab page won't upset anyone. PamD (talk) 22:06, 28 July 2011 (UTC)


Thanks for the advice on stubs --Gauravjuvekar (talk) 17:40, 31 July 2011 (UTC)


Hi. I asked for help from Keith D about Genuki and he said you may be able add advice - User talk:Keith D#GENUKI. Many thanks. Acabashi (talk) 20:27, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of Geier Indians for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Geier Indians is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Geier Indians until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. Fences&Windows 18:42, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Geier page

Thanks for your post on my talk page. I've been too busy to do much with Wikipedia lately but I agree whoever trashed that article went way overboard!Elcajonfarms (talk) 20:43, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Common sense

Can you make this understandable? "St Luke's Anglican church on Stanks Lane North is in the Seacroft parish, Whitkirk deanery in the Diocese of Ripon and Leeds. It seats 250." It reads like a bus timetable at present.--andreasegde (talk) 19:47, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

If you can't make it understandable, it will be removed.--andreasegde (talk) 22:03, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
What's not to understand? Makes sense to me. (For the benefit of any Talk Page Stalkers, this is about Swarcliffe). PamD (talk) 22:08, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
I like bus timetables, said the bus conductor. :))--andreasegde (talk) 21:35, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
Can we just stick the number into the 2nd, as, St Luke's Anglican church on Stanks Lane North is in the Seacroft parish; Whitkirk deanery, which seats 250, is in the Diocese of Ripon and Leeds.?  Chzz  ►  21:38, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Misunderstanding here: a "deanery" is the church area intermediate in the hierarchy between a parish and a diocese. In any case, after this had been insulted and removed a couple of times I came up with a compromise of including the diocese only, and this has survived. The deanery is perhaps a bit rarefied. PamD (talk) 21:42, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Michael Potts

Why do we have to let the BLP PROD run out in this case? Even if a source is added, it doesn't look like there's a snowball's chance in hell of this surviving an actual AfD or notability discussion. It seems like needless bureaucracy to wait for it to get deleted and then recreate it as a redirect. Hell, if it speeds things up, I'd rather just source it so that the BLP PROD doesn't apply and then redirect it, but that just seems like an awful lot of trouble to fix what looks like a vanity advertisement page. Thanks!--Yaksar (let's chat) 10:06, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Why? Because it gives anyone interested in the article due warning that they need to provide sources or see it deleted. That's the way PROD works. Yes, it looks like a vanity page - less so since I removed his sample photos - but someone may be able to find WP:RS for notability. Give them a chance. PamD (talk) 10:11, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
I mean, yes, that's how it works to help save notable articles. But can't we just use common sense here? This was a logical redirect, which a user decided to turn into a page on themselves. After adding their photos to a few more articles. If we had caught it when he first made the change, most editors would probably have reverted it back to the proper redirect.--Yaksar (let's chat) 10:20, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
Can I at least CSD tag it as a speedy so we don't have a pretty clear ad for a guy who made a page on himself for 10 days and we can get it back to its proper place as a redirect?--Yaksar (let's chat) 20:55, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
To be clear, I wouldn't normally care so much about a non-notable page taking its time before getting deleted. In this case, however, its covering up other content. Redirects matter.--Yaksar (let's chat) 21:00, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Are you taking the Michael?

Look at the references. The church is NOT called St. Gregory the Great now. Good grief, do some homework, and actually read something.--andreasegde (talk) 18:48, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

If you don't stop this bollards, I will contact an admin to sort it out. You syntax is extremely clumsy, and you are only interested in chopping paragraphs into little pieces. If you could link an article that you have worked on, and actually nominated for a GAR that passed, I would trust you. As it is, you are a rather large bull in a very fragile china shop.--andreasegde (talk) 18:55, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

  • "Look at the references": the diocese calls it "St Gregory The Great". I take that as more authoritative than GENUKI. It's their church. PamD (talk) 19:00, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
  • And you can call my syntax clumsy while insisting on "Although not included in the Swarcliffe area, a Methodist Church (on the south side of Barwick Road), was closed in 2007."? Interesting. PamD (talk) 19:03, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
You are destructive, and have no interest in co-operative work. Your think your opinion is greater than the fundamentals of Wikipedia. Wrong. I ask you to look at Leeds Country Way, and tell me it's a GA.--andreasegde (talk) 19:09, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Note to talk page stalkers: this interesting discussion relates to Swarcliffe. PamD (talk) 19:14, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Mhm, xe also put a {{helpme}} on that talk, but didn't make it clear what the request was - so, I asked, on User talk:Andreasegde#Helpme on Talk:Swarcliffe. I see there has been some kind of kerfuffle over the article, but still - in terms of the help request, I'm not sure what is wanted, yet.  Chzz  ►  19:43, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

PanD, as you might see on that talk, I've been trying to help resolve their concern. I don't see any major problem here, and I hope we can work together to sort things out through further discussions on the article talk page - I'd appreciate your help and patience with that, being extra-careful to discuss anything controversial or disputed, before repeating edits (as I'm sure you will). Cheers,  Chzz  ►  20:50, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

"Hope is the last thing to die", as they say. For a fine example of a GA article, look at Leeds Country Way, Marvellous.--andreasegde (talk) 21:33, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter - August 2011

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→ Newsletter delivered by ENewsBot (info) · 04:55, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Brotherton Library

Thanks for the comments. As you'll see, I've taken some of your advice, plus I've (with some difficulty - they've changed the process) put up a DYK at Template_talk:Did_you_know/Brotherton_Library.

I've added some External links and will add one for Special Collections. I'll see what I can do about describing the BC suite.

I'm in several minds about how to describe the 75th anniversary booklet in the refs. Have you seen it? On the front cover it says

[at top left] BE INSPIRED
[then the U of L Et augebitur scientia logo, cribbed, more or less, from Oxford]
[and at bottom right:] UNIVERSITY OF LEEDS

Then, at the top of most of the pages, it says "Leeds University Library"! No author or ISBN or anything.

Some photos would be good. Two that look particularly good to me are

  1. this one (scroll down) and
  2. this

I can't see how I can contact the blogger who took the first picture, and as for the second, there's some stuff about copyright at the bottom, but the photo is c75 years old and surely must be out of copyright, whatever Leeds City Library says? Any thoughts on either or both? --GuillaumeTell 17:34, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

  • Re the blogger, she's still blogging actively so why not just add a comment saying that you'd like to include her photo in WP and would she like to upload it to Commons (telling her how to do it), or to Flickr with the appropriate permissions, for the glory of seeing her photo used in the encyclopedia? It would be much more complicated for her to give you permission to lift it from her blog into Commons. I don't know how alerting of comments on old blog items works, though: perhaps add another comment, on a more recent item, just to say "Hallo, Please see the comment I've just left at .... "?
Re the Leodis photo: I'm terribly rusty on copyright, but I know photographs are a very tricky area especial when the photographer is not known. Can't off top of head remember the situation, but WP goes by US copyright law it seems, and the Fair Use clause might get you somewhere - see discussion at Swarcliffe where an image was deleted from a gallery but argments like "it couldn't be replaced because the buildings have been demolished" (or something like that) came into play. See for UK situation - a lot depends on whether the photographer is known and whether the photo was "published" before 1 Jan 1941.
Re the Brotherton book: no, haven't seen it, and there's no mention of it on library website. I wondered what it was when you had the shorter form of ref for it. Sounds a bit of a mess bibliographically speaking! What is it for - handing out to VIP visitors? Odd not to have an ISBN: how substantial is it? Might it be worth asking Chris S how it's going to be referred to (or catalogued)? (Nothing in catalogue with title "Be inspired" at present!)
PamD (talk) 20:23, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for the congrats - I'm still tinkering with the article - also for the above advice (am pursuing it). I've emailed CS re the DYK, and have just had a reply, so no doubt he'll spread it around. The "Brotherton book" came to me through the post, together with an invite to Melvyn Bragg's King James Bible talk - presumably because of my (not very good) talk on early library automation. It's quite nicely done - 28pp in all (text: 11pp), lots of pictures and a timeline - but is a bit unclear whether it's about the BL or the UL as a whole (6 1/2 pp of text on the BL and Sp Colls, 1 1/2 pp on the EBL and HSL, 2pp on electronic stuff and a few collaborations. --GuillaumeTell 17:05, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Sooner or later

You're going to look at the edits made on the Swarcliffe page by other editors, and start to disagree with them, as they will disagree with you. It's a carcass that will be stripped of its flesh by vultures. Have fun.--andreasegde (talk) 22:17, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

The ones I've seen so far all appeaer to be improvements. PamD (talk) 22:27, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
I'm sure they do appeaer [sic] to be that way. BTW, the next train leaves at 10:30. This will be at 22:30. :))--andreasegde (talk) 22:41, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

New Signature

To my talk page stalkers... I've decided to have a go at making a new signature! PamD 14:15, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Potts again

Don't you have to give a reason to decline a speedy delete request.--Yaksar (let's chat) 18:59, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I wrote an edit summary, thought I'd saved a null edit with that summary while forgetting to do the edit, then went back and removed the speedy with explanatory edit summary - but in fact I must have cancelled the first edit so the first edit summary didn't appear. Sorry about the confusion. The redirect is still there, as a hatnote - I quite agree that they are important and mustn't get lost or over-written. It might be more logical if speedy / prod / Afd templates appeared after navigational hatnotes, rather than before them. (In fact none of WP:HATNOTE, WP:LEAD and WP:LAYOUT seem to specify that deletion templates go before navigational hatnotes, distinct from the category "Maintenance templates" which are shown to go after them. Interesting.) PamD 19:20, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
No worries, we all make a few edit summary slip ups. But I'm still confused about your removal of the speedy nomination; do you not think that the subject meets the A7 criteria? Thanks.--Yaksar (let's chat) 19:59, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
My understanding is that the bar is set pretty low, and that the statement that he has exhibited his photos serves as an assertion of significance or however it's worded for A7. PamD 22:55, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
  • See Wikipedia_talk:Deletion_policy#Placing_of_deletion_templates , where I've raised the issue. PamD 19:41, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Philip Simon

Ambox warning yellow.svg

The article Philip Simon has been proposed for deletion. The proposed-deletion notice added to the article should explain why.

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. --Trevj (talk) 08:42, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Many thanks for stepping by

Yoyr coments are much apreciated, and I will implement them within the next few minutes/hours. And I do know the essay is seen as long by some, and that there is a thought that a newcomer might be too bored and wander away, but it IS intended as a one-stop-shop. For myself, and in remembering how it was when I was new, I would have greatly appreciated were I to have found this primer in one place. At the bottom I will have a nice list of those other tutorials and help pages. As newcomers learn their way, I fully expect them to move on to the many other help pages we have here.

If you wish, please feel free to correct any typos or gender neutralizations as you feel proper. And I do hope you find THESE better than the originals.

That said, I'd love some input about the essay name. MANY thanks, Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 01:38, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

  • Copuld you check THIS I think it answers your suggestion and I kept it simple and not too scarey. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 06:24, 14 August 2011 (UTC)


... for the stub sort on Race Today. I really have to brush up on the myriad types of stubs we have ... in the meantime, your stub sorting work is much appreciated. --JN466 13:12, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Letter-NumberCombination

Ambox warning pn.svgTemplate:Letter-NumberCombination has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō Contribs. 23:00, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Many thanks

CopyeditorStar7.PNG The Copyeditor's Barnstar
I am honored to award you this Barnstar for your work in catching my typos and your valued assistance in bringing Wikipedia:A Primer for newcomers to life for the community. It is hoped that newcomers will benefit from WP:NewbieGuide for years to come. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 05:54, 16 August 2011 (UTC)


FWIW, I made it reuse the existing code [1]. And I'll continue cleanup. -- JHunterJ (talk) 16:12, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Jamal Blackman

I notice your edit summary said you were unsure of the notability of this player. I wasn't sure either. Any idea of where I should ask for input on this subject? i kan reed (talk) 20:32, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

WP:NFOOTY - and I doubt that he passes. PamD 08:18, 24 August 2011 (UTC)


Hi, saw your issue on OhConfucius's page. Dashes, definitely, and unspaced. I suspect he'll do some experiments to determine why the inconsistency arose. Thanks for your spotting of this. Tony (talk) 08:58, 24 August 2011 (UTC)


Nuvola apps edu languages.svg
Hello, PamD. You have new messages at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wikify.
Message added 22:45, 27 August 2011 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Nolelover Talk·Contribs 22:45, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


For the blood donations. I happened to see it on your userpage. Ryan Vesey Review me! 23:48, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Just want to say...

Thank you for your comments at WT:WWF and your recent edits on the Project page. Every extra pair of eyes helps so much. Nolelover Talk·Contribs 23:49, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

RE: Philip Castle

Hi there. Just a quick FYI re: your change to this article. From MOS:ALBUM: "Songs and singles are placed in "quotation marks", album titles are italicized and artists are left alone". Thought you may like to know =) Nikthestoned 09:00, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the reminder - I think I thought twice about the single but couldn't be bothered to check (sloppy editing!), and left the Wings tour in italics which someone else had given it. I probably did the article more good than harm on balance! PamD 09:45, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Many thanks

Many thanks for correctly formatting the updating of the article on the Radio Four series called Great Lives. I tried to update it myself, but I was not sure that I was getting the format correct. I also noticed that you put in a lot more information - so it is good to see things are working out exactly as wikis should, in this co-operative way. Again, many thanks for the information and correct formatting of the article, it looks a lot better now for being updated correctly. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 23:31, 6 September 2011 (UTC)


Dear Pam, Thanks for your concern but according to the ecclesiastical law and church canons, if any part or a section of a cemetery has been blessed by a Church of England bishop,it is an Anglican cemetery,regardless of the non-conformists/dissenters resting there,as Roman Catholics were allowed to be buried in Church of Ireland/Anglican cemeteries in the past.

On Monday 20th May 1839, The Highgate cemetery was dedicated to St James by the Right Reverend Charles James Bloomfield, Lord Bishop of London. 15 acres were consecrated for the use of the Church of England and 2 acres set aside for dissenters. Rights of burial were sold for either limited period or in perpetuity. The first burial on 26th May was Elizabeth Jackson of Little Windmill Street, Soho.

Evangelidis (talk) 18:59, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter - September 2011

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Re: Arthur Kozlowski

When I looked at the article, I assumed the news article was going to be about something else other than his death. Secondly, because the news article wasn't used as a reference, I also assumed it wasn't related. SwisterTwister talk 23:07, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Artur Conrad Kozlowski

Hi there Pam

I'm new to Wiki and have mailed a couple of friends about doing updates for the page. Artur was very well known in Ireland and the UK... There are publications in Irish Speleology and many websites with finds etc. An example of a publication is on the Irish Times website This is the 4km cave traverse that is mentioned in the exploration page.

Thank you so much for hte work you have already carried out to the page links etc... Regards Mark BTW I'm using a wireless winowds keyboard on a mac.... cant do the sign off, sorry — Preceding unsigned comment added by Markodonohoe (talkcontribs) 23:34, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Son Myung-soon

Was it really helpful to keep replacing a blp prod, when it would have been so very easy to source it? . DGG ( talk ) 20:16, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps you should ask the person who PRODded it why they didn't source it first. I just came across the article to stub-sort it, observed that the original editor had removed the BLPPROD tag so replaced it (leaving them a message about it), and when another editor removed it I replaced it again (and left them a message too). I think editors should be told that it's inappropriate to remove the BLPPROD tag. A quick google on the name didn't actually produce any WP:RS in the first few pages, and neither of the interwiki links are in languages I can read. I could have just ignored the removal of the BLPPROD, but that didn't seem helpful. PamD 21:00, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you for leaving a message on my anwerpage (you have been the latest Wikipedian to do so as of at 13 September 2011), ACEOREVIVED (talk) 20:08, 13 September 2011 (UTC)


What about Philippine five centavo coin? There is no text, either! — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 14:55, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Good point - have PRODded several more. PamD 15:14, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Concerns about {{Satop}}

Hi, I've just come across this template for the first time because Yorkshire is on my watchlist.

A couple of pointss;

  1. I don't think the addition of the headline "Additional, more specific, and related topics may be found at:" is either useful (a personal view) or (as far as I can see) allowed by WP:SEEALSO. Has it been discussed anywhere? (I also raised it at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Layout#.7B.7BSatop.7D.7D before I thought of coming here to your own talk page).
  2. What set of articles is the template intended to be used on? If less than 100% of articles with "See also" sections, then the reader will be left puzzled as to why some have the "headline" and others don't.
  3. I'm puzzled by the statement "The See also section of a Wikipedia article should normally terminate with either a
    template or a navagation bar template.". As far as I know the SA section normally terminates with the start of the References section, and any navbox doesn't come until after External Links (WP:FOOTER lists the sections). Is that statement telling me to add {{clear}} at the end of every "See also" section?

PamD 23:08, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

You raise some excellent points about Template:Satop.
  1. There seems to be a great deal of confusion among editors as to what belongs in the See also section of an article. I added an optional headline to Template:Satop in an attempt to to add a human touch to a possibly incoherent collection of internal links. The default headline can either be changed to something more meaningful or changed to default to no headline.
  2. Template:Satop was designed to be used in articles referenced by WikiProject Outline of Knowledge, but I {hopefully} made it sufficiently general to be used in any article.
  3. I added the note about terminating the See also section because Template:Satop is dynamic and may change in appearance as additional portals are created. An invocation of Template:Clear at the end of the See also section keeps Template:Satop from running into the References section. I added the navbar reference because some editors add relevant navbars to the end of the See also section, but that reference is superfluous and I will remove it.
I would like to hear your comments. Yours aye,  Buaidh  14:09, 15 September 2011 (UTC)


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Legendary creature stub

That is pretty good, though one thing I am wondering about is how legendary it is. The combination of pegasus/unicorn might actually be a 20th century concept. I haven't been able to find any horned pegasi/winged unicorns prior to the british using it during WW2, which was just a modification of a pegasus. Bonechamber (talk) 07:23, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, we could add {{fictional-stub}} as a second stubtype! But perhaps we could argue that a variation of a legendary creature is still a legendary creature (all unicorns are legendary, with or without wings?) PamD 07:48, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm sort of lost at this point, I always figured pegasi/unicorns were fictional even if some people in the olden days took them literally. I guess it's a good question to figure out if people take the winged unicorn concept literally. I scrounged through the wikimedia picture archives of both legendary equines and found very few instances of overlap, so at least so far I have to assume it's a pretty recent idea. Bonechamber (talk) 07:53, 19 September 2011 (UTC)


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I have reverted DGGs edits in the philippine centavo coin articles. As long as there is no text it seems really silly to keep those "articles". If he says, it is trivial to write a text about it, then I don't understand why he is not able to make such ones. It won't serve any good to the Philippine writers giving them the reputation of lousy writers with such state of articles. -- (talk) 14:01, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Philippine coins

I believe it is now considered that an infobox is enough information to escape deletion, adding text is just rewriting the infobox, and is so trivial it could be done by a bot. I've accordingly deprodded. DGG ( talk ) 04:02, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Still there is no text. Shouldn't there be another PROD again? -- (talk) 06:00, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
I realised the presence of an infobox was enough to prevent speedy deletion under "no content", but not sure of any rules about PROD deletions. I hoped the PRODs would encourage someone interested in the Philippines, or coins, to improve the articles. In reply to 112: no, PROD can only be used once on an article (I see that you, or someone, has re-PRODded them, and they have been de-PRODded). I've left a note on the talk page of the Philippines project encouraging someone to come and improve them, and I see that one article has already been improved. PamD 07:33, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Page on Great Lives

The artice on the Radio Four series "Great Lives" needs an update - Cerys Matthews championed Hildegard of Bingen in a most interesting programme. Could you please see to updating it - you can see my comments on the talk page explaining why I would appreciate an update! ACEOREVIVED (talk) 15:47, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

I have done it myself now, so I shall leave it to you to check that I got the format right (using a copy and paste method, I think I managed it!) Please excuse me if I got things wrong in the past - I know that people do get things wrong at times (just think of how many people would have got future tense wrong in that last sentence!) ACEOREVIVED (talk) 22:50, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Looks good, thanks. PamD 21:18, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Survey for female editors

Any of my talk page stalkers who are women might like to help User:SarahStierch by completing her survey of female wikipedians here. PamD 09:08, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

... But don't delay, as the survey closes this Friday, 7th Oct! PamD 15:59, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you!

Red Kitten 01.jpg

Thanks very much for all of your stub sorting and other cleanup efforts. I hope you enjoy this kitten.

KathrynLybarger (talk) 17:56, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, Kathryn - what a lot of librarians there are around on WP! I guess it's because helping other people to access information is what we're about. PamD 21:47, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Liberal Democrats and tuition fees

Hi there. This IP editor has been systematically erasing all references to Liberal Democrats voting on tuition fees. I see you have reverted one of these. There's a discussion at User talk:Keith D#Liberal Democrats and tuition fees Nunquam Dormio (talk) 06:32, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Lancashire Coastal Way logo.gif


Thanks for uploading File:Lancashire Coastal Way logo.gif. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Skier Dude (talk) 06:37, 8 October 2011 (UTC)


Assuming you have clearance and/or have permission to remove the template then it may have been a mistake on my part, however it has since been edited and when i tagged it originally it said and i quote,

"a my little pony friendship is magic game on the iphone in this game twilight sparkle is tasked with teaching cheerilee's class a lesson about the canterlot castle"

With NO references, external links etc. In the eyes of many editors this would probably been seen as childish/gibberish ecetera. I tagged it more on the grounds of having no meaningful content or history rather than being "unsalvageably incoherent" as you stated on my page. Also accusing me of WP:BITE is ludicrus because if you check my contributions i am always welcoming and encouraging to new editors (and actually it was me who originally welcomed him/her to wikipedia) and even people who vandalise and do incoherent edits i always assume good faith and try and encourage them to act with responsibility. At any rate i see the article has been edited to adequete standards, So thanks for the notifying me :) Goldblooded (talk) 16:10, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The message left on the editor's page says that the article is being nominated for deletion "because the page appears to have no meaningful content or history, and the text is unsalvageably incoherent.".
It's worrying that you have to "assume" that I have the right to remove your speedy template from Twilight Sparkle: Teacher for a Day: if you actually read the template, you can see that it says: "If this article does not meet the criteria for speedy deletion, or you intend to fix it, please remove this notice, but do not remove this notice from pages that you have created yourself." - in other words, any editor other than the page creator may remove that template. It did not meet the criterion, but I improved it anyway. Please slow down and read the templates you are using.
Looking at the article above I realised that "Friendship is magic" looked like a key phrase, searched on it, and found the article My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic to which I then linked that phrase. Not rocket science, just needs a little patience and imagination. The second line of text, from "in this game..." makes sense, if you add a few capital letters, as the plot line of this game. That seems to be "meaningful content". PamD 16:23, 9 October 2011 (UTC)


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WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter - October 2011

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Royal County of Berkshire Show

Hi there, I just want to ask why did you removed the Wiki markup to your recent edit at Royal County of Berkshire Show? This edit contradicts the mandate of WikiProject Wikify. — Rammaumtalkstalk 09:58, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

  • I don't know what markup you are saying I removed - please explain. PamD 10:27, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
  • I was referring to the Wiki links for a.) 20th Century, b.) World War I & c.) World War II, and your edit summary says "(stub-sort, cleanup, remove unnecessary links (eg WWII))." My point was that the Wikify drive clearly states under "How to wikify, no. 2" contradicts what you have done. — Rammaumtalkstalk 14:35, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
  • As it says there, "Please do not link terms that most readers are familiar with,...". These terms were not significant in the context of the show, and the links were unnecessary. How many readers are unfamiliar with the 20th century? PamD 14:48, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
  • I do agree that most English readers are familiar with the words. However, did you also consider that all readers (globally) cannot really comprehend what they're reading.
In fact, many people around the world come to Wikipedia as a source of reference not for leisure. Finally, I am considering the next generation from countries who are not native speakers of English like me. — Rammaumtalkstalk 18:30, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
  • WP:LINKS says that links should be made to "relevant connections to the subject of another article that will help readers understand the article more fully". Reading an article about the first or second world war will not help readers understand the article about the Berkshire show: all they need to know is that it was cancelled for a few years because of two wars. As for "20th century", it is specifically stated: "avoid linking dates": a century is a date. A reader who does not understand the words "20th century" is unlikely to benefit from reading the English language wikipedia. PamD 07:39, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

New Page Patrol survey


New page patrol – Survey Invitation

Hello PamD! The WMF is currently developing new tools to make new page patrolling much easier. Whether you  have patrolled many pages or only a few, we now need to  know about your experience. The survey takes only 6 minutes, and the information you provide will not be shared with third parties other than to assist us in analyzing the results of the survey; the WMF will not use the information to identify you.

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  • If this has been sent to you in error and you have never patrolled new pages, please ignore it.

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Many thanks in advance for providing this essential feedback.

You are receiving this invitation because you  have patrolled new pages. For more information, please see NPP Survey. Global message delivery 12:42, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

The Submariners Memorial

Hi there PamD, Thank-you so much for tidying up the article - it's not really my field, but I was surprised not to find an article for it. Regarding the name, I only have hearsay evidence right now (sitting next to a submariner's family member) - it would probably be better moved to one of the other more official names, with a redirect- such is the power of hindsight. (20040302 (talk) 09:37, 29 October 2011 (UTC))

Redirect of College cost calculator


I see that you have redirected the page College cost calculator to Student financial aid in the United States. However, it seems you have neglected to save a couple of valuable references which are now hidden from the general viewing public:

I hope this was not intentional? Ottawahitech (talk) 19:41, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Neither article included the term which was the article title, so they did not look particularly valuable in supporting the existence of this term or its worth as a separate encyclopedia article. I added a crossreference from the term which was used, Net price calculator, to the article where the information was to be found. PamD 20:11, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
I am surprised that the first article did not mention College cost calculator since this is the reason I gave it that name, but in any event I am not American (and neither are you?) so my knowlege in this area is limited. I was wondering though why you chose to re-direct the calculator article to an an article about student aid? In Canada those would be considered two distict areas: financial aid is not available to those considered to have enough funds to support themselves, whereas a calculator may help these very people stay that way. Am I making sense? Ottawahitech (talk) 12:31, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
I redirected the article to the article which had the most information about the topic, because the term used as the title seemed unsupported by the references provided. But I only came past it to stub-sort it and have no particular interest in it - do with it as you think fit. PamD 17:48, 30 October 2011 (UTC)


Thanks for the tip on {{stub}} tags - I will be sure to follow your advice in the future. --Drm310 (talk) 16:35, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

It's vs. Its

Hello and thanks for making the observation of my mistake. I can only hope that someday I could be as perfect as you! Churchway (talk) 23:57, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the help on the Larry Levinson page

Thanks for putting the correct templates on our article on Larry Levinson. We are doing it as part of our coursework at University of Strathclyde and we are all very new to this. Caileancaimbeul (talk) 16:53, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

No need to worry, we all have separate usernames, and the aim of the coursework is to have an article built to the standard that is required to be a permanent article on the site. Thanks for that introductory info as well. Caileancaimbeul (talk) 18:20, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Linden School

Thanks for your continuing help on this. DGG ( talk ) 02:31, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

WP Disambiguation in the Signpost

The WikiProject Report would like to focus on WikiProject Disambiguation for a Signpost article. This is an excellent opportunity to draw attention to your efforts and attract new members to the project. Would you be willing to participate in an interview? If so, here are the questions for the interview. Just add your response below each question and feel free to skip any questions that you don't feel comfortable answering. Multiple editors will have an opportunity to respond to the interview questions. If you know anyone else who would like to participate in the interview, please share this with them. Have a great day. -Mabeenot (talk) 23:19, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter - November 2011

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Thanks for leaving a VERY helpful direction to WP:FOOTERS showing the recommended order of footers (layout). Even though it is something I often wondered about, I never saw this before. Ottawahitech (talk) 15:13, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your help with Moore's page and all your pointers

Happy Thanksgiving (if you are in USA) Standard2211 (talk) 14:17, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


Hello, sorry about that. I promise we have plans to get those articles fleshed out in the near future, but we figured having a placeholder would be a decent idea (especially as it might encourage other people to contribute as well). I haven't been involved in the community for a while, so I don't remember the stance on this sort of thing, but is it generally frowned upon? Thanks. – Ilyanep (Talk) 23:24, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

  • Everything needs to be sourced - you've created the stub article, so unless it's original research you presumably have a reliable source to hand. Please give the source, rather than expecting someone else to come along later and find a source for you. And please give some context: remember that someone may hit the "Random article" button and get there, and make sure that the article explains what it's about. "In the field of computer vision, Xyz is..." can be a useful phrase, or "Xyz is a term used in computer vision to describe ....". PamD 09:11, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Larry levinson

A tag has been placed on Larry levinson requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section R3 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a redirect from an implausible typo or misnomer. Please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Vrenator talk 13:00, 1 December 2011 (UTC)


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Copied text

Hi Pam. I'm afraid I can't delete The Myrchents per your rationale. It does not meet a specific criterion. Perhaps copyvio? --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:35, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

  • Yes, I was seduced by Twinkle offering me "db-other" as a free-form option! Probably shouldn't be there. Can't claim copyvio as it's from Wikipedia... unless a user page has a different status? Does there need to be a CSD category for "pasted from another WP article without attribution"? PamD 08:47, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
You know, our deletion policies are so convoluted that even after having tagged tens of thousands, and deleted nearly 2,000 myself since I got the bit, I can never be sure, so I play safe. Adding new criteria to the CSD is a perennial discussion and never, or rarely reaches any consensus. Personally I can see arguments for at least two new criteria because I don't see why some toxic articles are allowed to slumber for another 7 days at AfD or PROD. You're probably right that there's no such thing as an internal copyvio, and I would have simply tagged it for A7 (db-band) because it's pretty obviously not notable. You could also have PRODed it - it would then have slipped away quietly after 7 days without any fuss,; anyway, there's no harm in sending it to AfD, someone might just come up with some plausible sources for it. The "db-other" is indeed misleading and is often misunderstood by our NPPers - I think I even fell for it once myself a very long time ago. I have no idea why it's there - policy states that there is no 'catch all' and that anything that does not fit squarely into the criteria must find another route to extinction. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 09:06, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
See Wikipedia_talk:Twinkle#.7B.7Bdb.7D.7D_is_misleading_-_remove_it.3F. PamD 13:27, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Re:The Myrchents

No, I didn't see that happen. I'd love to see that become an article; I think it's a fascinating band, obviously worthy of an article if they're still drawing that kind of interest fifty years later...but I'm prevented from acting on it because of sourcing issues. More power to him, if he finds something i didn't. My content is all GFDL-licensed irrevocably, right? Chubbles (talk) 17:57, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Baronets' titles

are used in article titles. Please don't remove the "Sir"; it is a solecism. Kittybrewster 12:46, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

No problem. I think that comes down to a "common name" question. Was he normally known with the Jones name? Kittybrewster 14:03, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
I had forgotten what a wonderful editor you are. Would you like to tackle AWB task tautology? Kittybrewster 14:22, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
What's that about? I don't use AWB often, mostly on the occasional purge of "should of"s etc, which I haven't done for a while. PamD 14:27, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
He currently lives. Ouch. Kittybrewster 14:33, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter - December 2011

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→ Newsletter delivered by ENewsBot (info) · 20:40, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Pacific route (Lend-Lease)

Hello Pam,
Thanks for your note. I had to go out last night, so there was still some stuff to do on it; I've had another go at it this morning. Yes, the caps were all over the place; I started with a paragraph from another article (see here) and re-wrote it, hence the discrepancies. I've unified the style now. Also, one of the links was still old (and broken); that's fixed too. As far as the title goes, I've no idea what's best. MOSCAPs likes minimal capitalization, but "Pacific Route" is used as a name, so I've gone with that in the text; the dab is because I didn't think this was the only one, though a google search only throws up a PDF on a First Peoples migration model,
([file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Richard/Local%20Settings/Temporary%20Internet%20Files/Content.IE5/IHFGFEQW/First%2520Peoples'%2520Origins%5B1%5D.ppt#260,5,The Pacific Route Theory] this; it doesn't want to go live!)
which is surprising. I'll go with the flow, on this one... Xyl 54 (talk) 11:25, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
PS Your time-display userbox is an hour ahead of me (here in Liverpool); is Yorkshire in it's own time zone, now? Xyl 54 (talk) 11:29, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out (actually I'm in the top left corner of Lancashire most of the time!). I wonder whether anyone has developed a userbox which adapts to BST/GMT automatically? Or do I just have to add it to the mental twice-a-year list: kitchen clock, phone, watch, bedside clock-radio, Mother's several clocks and watches, clock in the car, .... and Wikipedia userbox! PamD 22:28, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of Sentence length (linguistics) for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Sentence length (linguistics) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sentence length (linguistics) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. Cnilep (talk) 03:41, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Help is sought with a new article.

No need to reply, but if you can help with a new article, it will be appreciated. If you do reply, please reply on my talk page. Thank you ! Standard2211 (talk) 23:39, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Šárka and Šárka (disambiguation)

Following a page move (not by me), I'd have thought that the above ought to be combined (or is it OK to have two dab pages for the same name?). I'd combine them myself but I'm not sure which should be the dab page and which the redirect. I'm sure that you do! Also, Maidens' War (I think) needs a See Also pointing to the combined page. No hurry. --GuillaumeTell 11:23, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

All a bit of a mess, and I'm not sure I've helped. I didn't look carefully enough at all talk pages involved, so at one point decided that the article on the myth ought to be about the heroine instead, then reverted my reversions. See Talk:Šárka_(disambiguation)#Requested_move, anyway. There can well be both a dab page and a name page for the same name - the text "... is a female given Czech name" or whatever has no place in a dab page - so I've rearranged the split between the two pages, and renamed one as "... (name)". The other, true dab page, ought to be at the base name. (Well, actually I suspect that an article about the heroine should be at the base name, the position pre-move). The incoming links need to be fixed, and should have been done by the page mover. PamD 00:11, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
Well, thanks for trying. As you know, my interest is in music rather than legends, and I'll see if I can work through it all tomorrow, unless I have problems with my current project (Talk:Stanley Holloway discography - yes, really!). As you say, maybe there actually ought to be an article on Šárka herself, but then again, maybe not. Sorry to hear that you won't be at Salvo's next week. --GuillaumeTell 00:45, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

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Detaching hook

Well, the article didn't actually describe what it was meant to be about, but I accept your point. I think your redirect is probably the right way forward, since his article is mostly about his invention, but I'm happy to recreate if you think it's desirable Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:56, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Lancaster City Museum

The DYK project (nominate) 00:04, 26 December 2011 (UTC)


Sounds like you and Pesky are both members of the "have aging parents" club along with myself (and certainly countless others). Was wondering what that score you mention is all about and how one uses it to assess the decline of a person who is having alzheimer's/age-related dementia issues. Can you point me at some possible sources of further info? My set is probably heading from retirement community to assisted living within the next 6 months, and they won't take it well, need to figure out how to properly assess and create a plan. Montanabw(talk) 21:56, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Ah! It helps that you are in the UK where they actually believe in supportive and preventative medicine. Sigh. Support stuff sux in the USA. I'll have to check out that web site, thanks! Montanabw(talk) 23:00, 5 January 2012 (UTC)


Just so you know, I had actually asked X! on several previous occasions to either disable or revise Soxbot's programming when it comes to the uncat tag, but it hadn't happened despite my repeated requests. The issue, in a nutshell, is that the bot doesn't distinguish between real content categories and hidden maintenance ones, and just detags an article if it sees any category at all. Sometimes that's useful, because editors do occasionally add categories without removing the uncat tag, but more often it's just a pain in the butt because hidden maintenance categories don't actually count toward whether a page is considered categorized or not, so the majority of pages it detags just bounce right back onto the uncategorized articles list again.

The added bonus was that in the past few days, Soxbot actually started getting into an edit war with another bot — my previous workaround had been to use {{improve categories}} instead of {{uncategorized}} on articles that had hidden maintenance categories, but there was one article where the second bot converted the improve tag to the uncat tag as the article had no content categories, and then Soxbot came along and detagged the article because it had a maintenance category. So if I hadn't done something different than usual, that would have turned into a royal feedback loop.

If X! really has finally disabled that function from Soxbot's programming as it seems, then excellent, I won't use the nobots tag again. But I just wanted to clarify why I was using it yesterday. Bearcat (talk) 17:55, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Dewey System

Hi Pam, I thought maybe you could help with this one. Since starting to edit Wikipedia I have gathered an eclectic (if not eccentric!) collection of books, brochures,pamphlets, etc.. My New Year Resolution is to sort them into some sort of logical order.(I'm currently at the stage of "It's a big green book with silver writing and I last saw it on the top shelf of the middle bookcase!!") I'm putting them in to order using Dewey. I've managed to find online lists for the class number up to the 000's but can't find any for the numbers after the decimal point. Do you know of any online sources, please? (Or even a cheapish summary in hard copy.)I'm having particular problems with archaeology-science of, and archaeology-specific sites. Also, history narrowed down to Yorkshire-mediaeval etc. Thanks. --Harkey (talk) 18:32, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, can't really think of an answer, and I'm a long way from librarianship these days. I guess the clue is in the first few words of Dewey Decimal Classification: it's a proprietory system and they want you to buy the books or subscribe to the web service. If you asked nicely at your local central library they might be able to let you look at a copy from backstage, long enough to get the gist of the arrangement in the areas you're interested in or maybe copy a few pages. Another option might be UDC - starts with the same classes but subdivides more flexibly/complexly - you can get a free 2 weeks access to an online version at, and it ought to be available as part of a public library's subs to British Standards, though a quick look at the BSI online website suggests it ain't that simple. Or just invent your own scheme based on your own requirements? Good luck. PamD 20:04, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks very much for your reply. I'll ask the folks at Northallerton library next time I go, they're usually really helpful. I keep thinking that I've cracked the Dewey code, only to come up against a complete anomaly. (The trouble with inventing my own scheme is that I usually end up complicating issues!!!)Thanks again.--Harkey (talk) 21:42, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Stub sort

Okay, I'll keep it in mind :) WhisperToMe (talk) 19:42, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter - January 2012

Delivered January 2012 by ENewsBot. If you do not wish to receive the newsletter, please add an N to the column against your username on the Project Mainpage.

→ Please direct all enquiries regarding this newsletter to the WikiProject talk page.
→ Newsletter delivered by ENewsBot (info) · 12:04, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Redirection error in moving Mystic Marriage of St. Catherine (Correggio)

Help! I've made a mess in wanting to move a new article (as above) of which I wished to change the title to an extended one (i.e., "Mystic Marriage of Saint Catherine (Correggio)"). I did it, but forgot to add "(Correggio)" after the title, and now it reverts to another painting of similar title. I'm unable to undo and fix my mistake. Can you assist? Many thanks.--Smintheus Fellin (talk) 20:51, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I also think that a disambiguation page should be created for this particular title, but I forgot how to do it (I'm afraid I lack practice... I worked on Wikipedia during the early 21st century...). The Mystic Marriage of St. Catherine has several authors, as may be seen from the various entries, which at times spell "mystic" and at others "mystical". Any guidance would be much appreciated.--Smintheus Fellin (talk) 21:11, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

  • I think I've sorted this out for you now - will check back in the morning, as I've requested deletion of your "... Saint ..." version so that we can move the "... St. .." version to that title instead, which I think is what you want! If you need to rename a page, even one you've written yourself, don't copy-and-paste it to the new title but use the "Move" button - that way we only have one copy of the article, and a redirect is created from the other title. I've also created a dab page, which I think follows the rules though it's an interesting situation when there are so many variations. There could usefully be even more redirects pointing to the concept, to minimise the chance of anyone creating a new duplicate article by mistake - not sure how far to go along the variations of (The), Mystic/Mystical, Marriage/Wedding, Saint/St. I don't know whether there are specific conventions in the area of translated titles of works of art. PamD 00:22, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Yes, I've now moved the article to the title I think you wanted. PamD 00:25, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

You're great! Many thanks for your help. I did first use the "Move" button, but as I said, without appending the bracketed painter. Then I did it again, correctly this time, but it only added to the confusion. Then, in an attempt to correct my blunder, I repasted the page onto the right title, then...started screaming... and the mess increased. I lost myself in the meanders of the various "undo", manual correction, etc.
What I really wanted was an actual "re-direct" so that both titles (the one with "St" and that with "Saint") would both end up on the same page I created.
Arrgghh, I'm too old for this! My memory is playing up and confusion reigns. So, before I get a bout of depression, I think I'll give it a rest and read a book instead.
Thank you again for your thoroughly efficient assistance. Ciao.--Smintheus Fellin (talk) 18:00, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
P.S.: I love your Murphy quote, that "if you write anything criticizing editing or proofreading, there will be a fault of some kind in what you have written" -- it's sooo true! Just as true as The bus you plan to take always leaves five minutes before you reach the bus stop. --Smintheus Fellin (talk) 18:00, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

Citation Barnstar Hires.png The Citation Barnstar
Thanks for the help! Androzaniamy (talk) 21:45, 10 January 2012 (UTC)


Hi! I'm following other articles in ctgr; several other ppl in ctgr never graduated, but are in it. Probably ctgr should be renamed into alumni? Regards, --Klemen Kocjancic (talk) 10:58, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, I used old ctgr and old system. Then probably best solution would be Category:Royal Military Academy Sandhurst alumni. OK? Regards, --Klemen Kocjancic (talk) 12:09, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Brent Ashley

I just wanted to say thanks for helping me with editing and formatting. WavesOfHumanity (talk) 00:52, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Djohar Arifin Husein

I can`t understand about dates links in this articles. I feel that the links is important. SpartacksCompatriot (talk) 10:32, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

  • Linking to 13 and September and 1950, or to July 9, does not help the article and is against Wikipedia policy - see Wikipedia:Linking#Chronological_items and WP:MOSNUM. All that the reader here needs to know about "13" to understand his birth date is the fact that 13 is a number between 12 and 14 and is one of the days of the month: if they do not understand this already then they are unlikely to gain much by reading Wikipedia. In general, the fewer links there are in an article the clearer the important links will be, so we do not link common words, or numbers, or dates. PamD 11:59, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Okay. Anyway, thanks for the info. SpartacksCompatriot (talk) 22:24, 13 January 2012 (UTC)


Sorry about my mistakes with the wording/infringement, etc! I'm a new editor here; it's my first day, and I hope to learn from those mistakes. In any matter, I significantly reworded both stubs, including the MFRN piece. Thanks.--Fred C. Anderson (talk) 17:54, 13 January 2012 (UTC)


Nuvola apps edu languages.svg
Hello, PamD. You have new messages at Wikipedia talk:Twinkle.
Message added 10:50, 16 January 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Armbrust, B.Ed. Let's talkabout my edits? 10:50, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I think you might need to read this

Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers--Androzaniamy (talk) 18:02, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

TUSC token c38a81d6a431d8949cf4aec47f687948

I am now proud owner of a TUSC account! PamD 18:00, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

Tireless Contributor Barnstar Hires.gif The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
Hi! I stumbled across you (as you do) whilst editing. Looks like you've done some great work on Wikipedia over the years. Have a Barnstar! Hogyn Lleol ★ (chat) 16:53, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

WP Stub Sorting in the Signpost

The WikiProject Report would like to focus on WikiProject Stub Sorting for a Signpost article. This is an excellent opportunity to draw attention to your efforts and attract new members to the project. Would you be willing to participate in an interview? If so, here are the questions for the interview. Just add your response below each question and feel free to skip any questions that you don't feel comfortable answering. Multiple editors will have an opportunity to respond to the interview questions. If you know anyone else who would like to participate in the interview, please share this with them. Have a great day. -Mabeenot (talk) 23:44, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

The Signpost: 30 January 2012

Thank you

Thank you for the last message which you left on my userpage. Do not worry - slip-ups on Wikipedia are easy to make, especially if one edits late at night! Good luck with having things in your life quiten down - hope you manage to get things sorted. With very best wishes, ACEOREVIVED (talk) 11:32, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

speedy deletion

In this edit, the speedy-deletion tag you added said "This article may meet Wikipedia's criteria for speedy deletion as an article that contains no content whatsoever, or consists only of external links, category tags, a "see also" section, a rephrasing of the title, an attempt to correspond with the person or group named by its title, chat-like comments and/or images." Although it's quite a badly written article, and it's not clear that it has any merit, nonetheless it's crystal-clear that none of that is true. It's not true that it has no content; it's not true that it consists only of external links, category tags, or a "see also" section; it's not true that it's a rephrasing of the title; and it's not true that it consists of chat-like comments or images. It seems probable that a large part of the deficiency of language in the article results from a weak grasp of English and a new user's unfamiliarity with Wikipedia's conventions. I've restored the article. Michael Hardy (talk) 02:33, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

  • Fair enough - I had misremembered the phrase "meaningful content" into the criterion (as used in G1). There is no content which tells us what an IVT is, and I also suspect the whole thing to be copyvio (as shown by the reference "[6]"). Will PROD.
I thought I had explained my reasoning on the article's talk page, but that seems to have been deleted in the course of the page moves. PamD 07:32, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I see: if it was copied and pasted, that would explain why it was written in such a confused way. Michael Hardy (talk) 17:41, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Some new changes

To all users who think I'm trouble,

I have been thinking carefully and have come to a final conclusion as to why some other users seem to absolutely hate me and everything I do. These are a list of things I will try to do when I edit Wikipedia. From now on I will:

Not trust Wikipedia when I use it for my own purposes.

Continue editing it for as long as I shall live!

Ignore rude messages to me and report them.

Ignore users that call me names.

Continue fighting vandalism.

Accept all help whether I need it or not.

Ask for help from users that are helpful and polite.

Give help to users who ask for it.

Spend more time on editing Wikipedia instead of trying to persuade others that I don't mean to be mean.

Not give thank you messages to users who do not recieve them well.

Never edit another user's user page.

Continue being polite and competent.

I have sent you this because I think you might benefit from reading it. Androzaniamy (talk) 12:29, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

  • How rude to post such a remark on another user's Discussion page!
  • The irony is that you have immediately broken your penultimate promise.
  • Retract!
Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 12:38, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Well, no, she hasn't broken that penultimate promise: she's edited my talk page, not my user page. But it will be very interesting to see how she manages this plan: it includes a contradiction ("ignore and report") and something rather questionable ("Continue..." in the last line?). We'll see. PamD 12:49, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
  • If you felt that I was "butting in", I apologize. I could read that you were having a break from Wikipedia, and so believed a prompt, sharp slap was in order. With kind regards, Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 12:58, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
  • No problem, just I thought we'd better be accurate. I'd drifted back from my break (can't keep away!). Thanks for chipping in. I wonder whether you're one of my talk page stalkers, or someone with an interest in the other editor? PamD 13:04, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Neither actually. I'm still a new boy learning all the time. I had read and appreciated some of your postings, so just added your page to my watchlist... (I suppose I was trying to act the gentleman today... coming to the lady's rescue...) and had not known of the other editor before now. Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 13:16, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Pleased to meet you, then, Gareth - there are quite a few of us over-50s around on WP, even if it sometimes seems to be dominated by kids! I've copied one of your userboxes!: too true, too true. PamD 14:09, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Yes, it is a good one. Soon I will not even fit into the 50 - 70 category. Now I'm going to follow the advice in the 'box, leave my computer, to settle down and watch the Wales and Ireland Six Nations. Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 14:22, 5 February 2012 (UTC)