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{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Spanish conquest of Petén/archive1}}
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{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Melbourne Castle/archive1}}

Revision as of 13:49, 21 November 2013

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 22 November 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Spanish conquest of Petén

Nominator(s): Simon Burchell (talk) 20:42, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In the late 17th century while Europe was undergoing a scientific revolution, deep in the forests of Central America the last independent Maya kingdoms were still practising human sacrifice upon pyramid temples, as their ancestors had done for many hundreds of years. They had been aware of the encroaching Spanish Empire since 1525, when Hernán Cortés had made an epic journey across their territory. Initial Spanish attempts against them had met with disaster in the early 1620s and the independent Maya, led by the warlike Itza, resolutely resisted Spanish overtures. The Spanish themselves were engaged in a complicated competition to be the first to bring the Itza within the Empire, with competing military expeditions from mutually independent colonial authorities in Yucatán and Guatemala, vying with attempts at religious conversion by both the Dominican and Franciscan Orders. With the Itza alternating between diplomatic overtures and the ambushing of Spanish expeditions, soldiers and friars alike fell beneath the spears and sacrificial knives of the Maya, although the outcome was perhaps inevitable…

This article has passed GA and MilHist A-Class Review, and I believe it is ready for the final push to FA… Simon Burchell (talk) 20:42, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support on prose per standard disclaimer. I've looked at the changes made since I reviewed this for A-class. - Dank (push to talk) 22:24, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image check - all OK (CC, own work, PD-age). Sources and authors provided.

Feedback from Curly Turkey

Support Leaning support. A remarkably well-written and -researched article. The only expertise I have on the subject is what I've gained from reading the article, but it at least gives the impression of being thoroughly comprehensive.

  • "on the west by the Mexican state of Chiapas with the border largely following the course of the Usumacinta River": I can't say I totally understand why it's an issue, but you may want to read WP:PLUSING.
  • "A single soldier arriving in Mexico in 1520 was carrying smallpox and thus initiated the devastating plagues that swept through the native populations of the Americas.": would this not be better in the "Impact of Old World diseases" section that follows?
  • "three 1-pound (0.45 kg) caliber light cannons": I don't know which brand of Commonwealth spelling this is written in, but I assume this should be "calibre".
  • "dark wood of a flowering tree, (Apoplanesia paniculata), called chulul by the Maya": I'm not sure the commas are necessary around the parantheses—at least, they look weird to me.
  • "The bows used by the Maya were almost as high as a man": would "were described as almost as high as a man" be more accurate?
  • "a short jacket that was filled with rock salt": could we get a reason why?
  • The implication is that it is the shock absorbing quality of rock salt, something like with sandbags. I'll see if I can dig out something explicit but I rather doubt it - this is one of those things that is covered in passing in the sources but not covered in any detail. Simon Burchell (talk) 15:41, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the second paragraph of "Legacy of the conquest", San José is mentioned twice, and linked the second time. If they are the same San José, then the first one should be linked.
Stuff to think about, but won't affect whether the article passes FAC

If you disagree with any of the following, just ignore it.

  • Would "Historical sources" not be better towards the end of the article? It doesn't seem to me like one of the first things a reader would want to read about.
  • For redlinks that have articles in other languages, you can use {{ill}}, so that for example you can do {{ill|es|Diego de Cardenas|Diego de Cárdenas (gobernador de Yucatán)}}, which produces Diego de Cardenas [es]—the great thing is, when someone creates the English-language article, the interwiki link disappears automagically.
  • I've been told that the "|indent=yes" with {{Refbegin}} does funny things with some browsers. If you switched to the asterisk style you'd marginally improve accessibility.
  • I like the indent because it allows the first line of the ref, with author etc. to stand out, making it easier to find a particular reference quickly. It seems to display OK in IE, Firefox and Chrome, and doesn't look too bad on my painfully slow early version Kindle. Simon Burchell (talk) 16:21, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

———Curly Turkey (gobble) 14:22, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for the review - I hope I can work through the points you raised reasonably quickly. Best regards, Simon Burchell (talk) 14:49, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Everything I noted has been dealt with. An impressive level of quality, especially on such a long article. Curly Turkey (gobble) 22:24, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! All the best, Simon Burchell (talk) 22:25, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment will read through and jot queries below - have limited familiarity but did visit Tikal 20 years ago....cheers, Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:42, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks Casliber, I look forward to your comments - Tikal is certainly a wonderful place to visit! It is somewhat peripheral to the events here - but I should think you went to Flores - one-time Nojpetén, the focus of the conquest... Simon Burchell (talk) 13:02, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did indeed....now onto the prose. Looking good at first glance but I wonder if some words are repeated and can be folded in somehow. I read this on my smartphone yesterday - will look again and see if I can find some examples. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:51, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Petén was not politically unified and was divided into a number of different Maya polities engaged in a complex web of alliances and enmities. - isn't stating it is "not politically unified" redundant given you then clarify its political status?
The geography section has several short sentences separated by semicolons - I massaged this a little as I felt the prose was a tad stilted, but no real alternatives jump out for the rest - this is not particularly actionable (i.e. not a deal-breaker) but if you can massage this section at all it'd be helpful.
The first sentence of the Petén before the conquest would be better if presented in chronological order methinks.
A significant Maya presence remained in Petén into the - "in Peten" possibly redundant here (?)
early Spanish reports suggest that sizeable Maya populations existed in Petén - "sizeable" a bit nebulous - some further accuracy would be helpful but not actionable if the source doesn't have any further clarification I guess
fair enough - we can only go on sources. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:41, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The second polity in importance was that... - odd phrasing. Can we rephrase this?
  • I've had a go - now reads The Kowoj were the second polity in importance, and they were hostile towards their Itza neighbours. The Kowoj were located to the east of the Itza, around the eastern lakes: Lake Salpetén, Lake Macanché, Lake Yaxhá and Lake Sacnab.
It's the "second polity in importance" that sounds odd to me - maybe if it were just "Second in importance...."
To the west of the Kejache was Acalan - "of the Kejache" redundant here (?)
The European diseases that ravaged the populations of the Americas - reword to avoid repetition of words in the previous sentence.

More later. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:15, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Cas, just passing through, no special hurry but are you still planning to comment further? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:32, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, sorry - spare time has been lacking. Anyway, back to it.....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:41, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
.... with both meeting somewhere in Ch'ol territory; the plan was later modified - errr, modified to what? the last sentence is very abrupt and leaves me hanging..
At the beginning of March 1695, Ursúa ordered captain Alonso García de Paredes to explore the road south from Campeche city - is this the same road as in the preceding sentence? If so, I'd say "this road" as this bit is otherwise repetitive.
By 1708 only about 6,000 Maya remained in central Petén, compared to ten times that number in 1697 - I'd lose the second clause as we've established the 60,000 at the beginning of the para.

support Otherwise a good read. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:55, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • Be consistent in how you format citations to footnotes
  • Some cites are missing spaces before pages
  • Missing bibliographic info for Smith, Chocón and Corzo
  • Dates for MacQuarrie differ between footnotes and References
  • Which sources does "Rice et al 2009" refer to?
Comments from Quadell

This is a fascinating article. It is extremely thorough and meticulously sourced. I find no major problems; I can only offer these paltry issues and suggestions for your consideration.

  • A word from a grammar martinet: I am delighted to see that this article uses its own distinct style which it maintains throughout. For instance, commas are omitted after prepositional phrases that introduce sentences (e.g. "In the first half of the 16th century Spain established..."); while unusual, this is perfectly acceptible. There is one stylistic choice, however, that I feel crosses the line into being an error. When two independent clauses are joined with a coordinating conjunction ("and" or "but"), most style guides insist a comma must precede the coordinating conjunction. So note this change in the lead, and these changes in a later section. Please check for this throughout. (Note though that this does not apply when one clause is dependent; it is fully acceptable to omit the comma in "Petén was not politically unified and was divided into...", since the two predicates share a subject.)
  • The date range given in the infobox is "1525 – c. 1697". I know date ranges for such long conflicts are often quite fuzzy, but is 1525 the best year to start with? The "Background to the conquest" section covers a time period up to the early 17th century. The lead sentence says that the conquest of Petén was "the last stage of the conquest of Guatemala", but the conquest of Guatemala didn't start until 1524. I just want the summary dates to be as accurate as the detailed facts will allow.
  • No Spanish expedition is recorded as entering Petén before Hernán Cortés in 1525, and the last significant battle took place in 1697, the year commonly regarded as the final conquest date of the Maya. The 1524 date refers to the conquest of highland Guatemala, outside of the region directly upon which this article concentrates; I think putting in the start year as 1524 would be misleading and the dates as given accurately reflect the approximate duration of the conflict. Simon Burchell (talk) 19:49, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh I agree that 1524 would be too early. My concern is that 1525 might be to early as well. I'll explain.
    If someone tries to get a sense of the conflict from just the lead section and the infobox (as many casual readers will), it might be confusing for them to see the following: the entire conquest of Guatemala lasted 173 years, starting in 1524, and the last stage of that conflict (Petén) started in 1525, just a year into it. If the reader looks further down the article, she will see that the prelude to the Petén conflict is described as starting in 1527, two years after the conflict supposedly began. (The prelude section goes on to cover events well into the 17th century.) A reader would expect the final phase of the conquest of Guatemala to occur later in that general conflict, and she would further expect for the prelude to the Petén conflict to precede the conflict itself. See where the confusion comes from?
    Now I know history is messy. Sometimes the last phase to finish is not the last phase to start. Sometimes the causes and prelude to a conflict will continue well into the conflict itself. But we have to pick years for the infobox and "Spanish colonial campaigns" template, and those years should seem to roughly correspond to what's described in the text. – Quadell (talk) 14:50, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I suppose it's just a matter of picking a date. I admit Cortés didn't enter Petén with the intention of bringing it into the Empire in 1525. Part of the problem is that different colonial authorities made attempts over different territories from different regions. The first serious attempt was in 1618, when the Franciscans tried to achieve peaceful submission. Would you be happier with that date in the infobox? Simon Burchell (talk) 15:09, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
For consistency's sake, I believe either one of two changes needs to be made. (1) The infobox and "Spanish colonial campaigns" template could be changed to reflect a timeframe described in the text, such as beginning in 1618; or (2) the text and section names in the article could be modified to reflect a conquest that begins in 1525, with a prelude that precedes it. Either solution would be acceptable. – Quadell (talk) 15:56, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The 2nd sentence in the lead describes Petén physically as a "lowland plain" with "dense rainforest". The 4th sentence again describes Petén as "a densely forested lowland region". This seems redundent.
  • When you bundle citations, you usually use a full-stop to separate sources (although citation 98 uses a comma). This can sometimes be confusing for the reader, when encountering a citation such as "Jones 1998, pp. 129–130. ITMB 2000.", to know that two sources are used. Would you consider using linebreaks (<br />) between multiple sources, as in the second example at Wikipedia:Citing sources#Bundling citations? I believe in would improve readability. (See citation 254 in this version for an example of what this would look like. I can assist with this change, if you would like.)
  • When the notes are sourced, consider using separate citations (i.e. separate links to the "Citations" section from the note). This would make the sourcing easier to read and understand when there are multiple sources for a given note, or when the source is stated mid-note. Again, I enjoy doing cite-work, so I'm willing to help, if asked.
  • I believe there should be a source for the existence of two Bacalars in Quintana Roo (note 1).
  • This is just a suggestion, but consider converting the "Historical sources" and "Archaeology" sections into subsections of a "Sources" supersection. ("Historical sources" might be renamed "Written accounts", if this is done.) My reasoning is simply that both sections fulfill a similar purpose.
  • I've only recently moved the "Historical sources" section to the end of the article, and it now seems to sit naturally with the archaeology section. I thought (but can't now find in the MOS) that subsections should not sit immediatly under a higher level section header without an introductory paragraph, which I think would be redundant here - so I haven't combined the sections. Simon Burchell (talk) 12:53, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am certainly leading toward supporting, and I look forward to your replies. – Quadell (talk) 16:48, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the issue I raised have been swiftly and thoroughly dealt with. The only remaining issue I see is the confusion about the timeline for the prelude to the conflict and the conflict itself. – Quadell (talk) 14:50, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support. A fascinating article, admirably thorough, and meticulously sourced. – Quadell (talk) 17:57, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 22 November 2013 (UTC) [2].[reply]

Elgin, Illinois, Centennial half dollar

Nominator(s): Wehwalt (talk) 04:25, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because… I think it meets the criteria. Crisco and others, I think, have asked for a commemorative coin article where things didn't go terribly wrong, and where no one ran off with the money. On this one, things went more or less as they should have, and the money was properly applied. The only problems were, the subject of the commemorative was terribly obscure and it took a while to get the memorial built. Wehwalt (talk) 04:25, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image review from Cirt

Comments from Cirt (addressed)

(having stumbled here from my FAC)

Addressed comments from Cirt moved to talk page, by Cirt. — Cirt (talk) 04:36, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the review and the support, and for the additions.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:52, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You're most welcome, and my pleasure, — Cirt (talk) 04:33, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review: A couple of minor issues:

  • Refs 19 and 20 appear to be to the same source. One shows a page number, the other doesn't.
I have ref 19 being page 215 of the Bowers article, with ref 20 being pages 215 and 216. Not sure I see the issue.
Ah, my apologies! the latter page refs are at the top of the third column, and I missed them. Brianboulton (talk) 10:20, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "L.W. Hoffecker" source: It is not immediately clear why the name is enclosed in quotes.
That is the name of the article. It is an obituary.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:36, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise sources look fine. I will read the article over the next day or two and provide a more general review. Brianboulton (talk) 21:40, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

General comments: Not many:

  • The reason for the commemorative issue – Elgin's centenary – should I think be given in the first, rather than the second paragraph of the lead.
  • "The latter year, a watch company was founded there, and the city became well known its timepieces;" A word missing after "known": ("known for its timepieces")
  • "Trygve Rovelstad (1903–1990) ... sought to erect a statue as a monument to the pioneer in his hometown of Elgin." Not clear who is meant by "the pioneer". It reads as though it refers to an individual, though I assume it's a generalisation for the early American pioneers. This needs to be explicit, especially for non-American readers.
  • "The sculptor managed to get a bill introduced..." No sculptor has previously been mentioned in the text, so clarification needed
  • "L.W. Hoffecker on July 11 wrote..." would be better phrased as "L.W. Hoffecker wrote on July 11..."
  • "There were a large number of commemorative coin bills in Congress in 1936..." Any particular reason for this? The year doesn't immediately ring any anniversary bells.
Lots of people trying to get on the bandwagon. See generally the discussion at Oregon Trail Memorial half dollar#Final issues and termination. Hatnote added.
  • "commission Chairman" – inappropriate capitalisation
  • The use of "plus" in prose, in the sense of "as well as", is usually deprecated by prose stylists, and in any event is rendered pointless by the later "extra". I'd insert a comma after "coins", and replace "plus" with "with" or "also".
  • "According to his wife, Gloria, he was offered a job at the Mint but declined." This sentence has no relation with the rest of the paragraph, and looks out of context. It doesn't seem relevant to the article's subject.
I think it's relevant as it shows Sinnock's view of his competence. When a statue goes unfinished for sixty-five years you have to wonder. I'll add "by Sinnock". Interesting to wonder if he would have become Chief Engraver instead of Gilroy Roberts, and would have designed the Kennedy half dollar ….--Wehwalt (talk) 05:31, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Design" section: three "heads" in the first line
  • "Release" section, second paragraph: the date should be given at the start of the sentence: "On July 1, 1936, Hoffecker sent off 3,500 letters offering the new coins, which had not yet been struck", not as at present.
  • The Pioneer Family image looks unnecessarily large at 400px. Recommend a max of 300px

Expecting to support. Brianboulton (talk) 20:25, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Very well, thank you. I've made the changes not addressed above.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:44, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support: on basis of above responses and a final readthrough. Brianboulton (talk) 00:22, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your thorough review and kind comments.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:58, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments (formerly Oppose). I don't wish to seem rude, but has the article been read through properly? From the first para of main text:

  • "The latter year, a watch company" (add preposition)
  • "became well known its timepieces" (add "for")
  • "notable for manufacturing of tools" (add article)
  • "and weekly publications" (not part of "manufacturing", so another noun is needed)
  • "to be distributed to churchgoers" (why not "which were distributed"?)
  • "on Sunday" (just one Sunday?)

There are only three sentences in that para, so that's a high ratio of problems. Given that criterion 1a is "well-written: its prose is engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard", I'd expect that the great majority of simple things like those above would have been corrected prior to nomination. Based on that, I don't wish to go through the remainder of the article, but recommend that at least one person does, possibly outside the formal FAC procedure. EddieHugh (talk) 21:07, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I will ask reviewers to look carefully at that paragraph. That being said, I'm not sure it is as dire as you suggest. I think the preposition debatable on the first one, but have added it. The second one, other reviewers have pointed out the need, and I've added it. The third one for clarity I've changed "manufacturing" to "production". That brings in the weekly publication, which are "produced", and so your fourth concern is addressed later. I don't like your proposal on the fifth one because I think my phrasing makes it a bit clearer these were not just Elgin churches. The last one I think the existing phrasing is adequate. I think the plural unneeded because all Sundays are included in "Sunday". That being said, I see no harm in changing it to "Sundays", and have done so. Would you be willing to read a little further?--Wehwalt (talk) 05:31, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm concentrating on other things at the moment. In the interest of fairness, I've changed the heading from "Oppose" to "Comments", the gist of which are that the whole should be looked at carefully. I hope that it goes well. EddieHugh (talk) 22:40, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for that. I would be grateful if you would look further as time permits. I have cleared up those glitches you mention and think that was just an unusual rough spot.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:45, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
On a point of clarification: I did read through the whole article before posting my points which are listed above. EddieHugh commented before Wehwalt had responded to my review. The "for" was obviously an omission; on the matter of prepositions, I am never sure of their general usage in AmEng, and I generally accept what writers such as Wehwalt do. Other EddieHugh points are more a matter of style choices, though I have to say I prefer "Sundays" to the singular. Brianboulton (talk) 13:24, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for that. I've got to give more read throughs before submitting to review. That being said, I think EddieHugh would not have found the rest of the article as bad. I gave it another careful read which caught a couple of glitches.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:17, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments

  • "weekly publications to be distributed to churchgoers" Is there an easier way to say that? What are we talking about here? Church bulletins? Religious pamphlets?
  • "sent an acceptance" might be better as "accepted his offer" or "wrote to accept his offer".
  • That's all I have on the first read-through. Interesting article on a fairly obscure coin. --Coemgenus (talk) 14:24, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for that. I've done those things. Yes, it is an obscure coin, but we got the images so we needed an article.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:17, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Right! I meant not that it shouldn't have an article, but that it's impressive that you could find enough source material to make one. I'll give it another pass before supporting, but it looks good to me. --Coemgenus (talk) 19:27, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Frankly, I was too. That's an impediment in this sort of article. It seems Bowers has Hoffecker's records.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:47, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see anything else that needs attention. Changed to support. Good luck! --Coemgenus (talk) 13:40, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks both for the support and the good wishes. I basically wrote the article because I got in some commemorative coin images by license, so ...--Wehwalt (talk) 18:37, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments from Crisco 1492
  • sculptural group - does this mean "group of sculptures"?
I took the term directly from the source. A group of sculptures seems to be what is going on up in Elgin, yes.
  • Elgin, Illinois, located on the Fox River about 30 miles (48 km) west of Chicago, was founded in 1835 by James and Hezekiah Gifford, who named it. - this sentence could use a bit of simplification, methinks
Split. I like the ending.
Bracketed.
  • "These should also be 10" in diameter, and this is where your trouble commences. These sculptors all want to incorporate their own ideas in the design and ask anywhere from $400.00 to $1,000.00 for their work, telling you what trouble it is to get the approval of the Commission of Fine Arts and many other things which do not exist." - is there a way to avoid having the straight quotes indicating inches here? I was initially reading this quote as ending at 20 and wanted to ask "10 what?"
Played with, feel free to modify.
  • Rovelstad wrote back with an acceptance in November. - is there a way to avoid this construct ("wrote back with an acceptance" sounds odd to me)
Tweaked.
Yeah, but it was depicted on the medal, the coin, and much promotional literature without copyright.

That's it for tonight. Rest tomorrow. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:07, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:31, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Removed. I need more evidence to make that case.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:59, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support with a couple of minor suggestions (not show-stoppers):

  • "The coins were to remain on sale through Hoffecker until January 1, 1937 or until they were sold, whichever came first." All sold, or sold out, maybe?
Sold out, then.
  • "he had completed them in plaster of Paris, needing to be bronzed before display." Something about the way this is phrased makes it seem like "needing to be bronzed" is modifying "he". I kicked it around a couple times but couldn't think of another way to say it.
I've played with it. Let me know what you think.

Looks mature and ready-to-go. Nice work and interesting as always. --Laser brain (talk) 17:55, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review and the support.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:59, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you on all counts.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:23, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:02, 22 November 2013 (UTC) [3].[reply]

Fuck (film)

Nominator(s): — Cirt (talk) 18:01, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fuck (film) is a WP:GA quality article on a documentary about freedom of speech and censorship.

After being promoted to WP:GA status by Khazar2, the article went through Peer Review where useful feedback was received from Red Phoenix, Piotrus, and Rejectwater. Subsequently WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors member Miniapolis provided helpful copy-editing.

Thank you very much for your time and consideration, — Cirt (talk) 18:01, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Notified: Talk:Fuck, Talk:The finger, User talk:Rejectwater, User talk:Piotrus, User talk:Red Phoenix, User talk:Miniapolis, User talk:Khazar2, User talk:Cirt, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Human rights, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United States, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sociology, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Popular Culture, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Media, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Linguistics, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Law, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Languages, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Journalism, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comedy, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Freedom of speech. — Cirt (talk) 18:16, 2 November 2013 (UTC) [reply]

Comments from Lugnuts (addressed)

Addressed comments from Lugnuts moved to talk per agreement with user, see diff.

Comments from Rejectwater (addressed)

Addressed comments by Rejectwater moved to talk page, per agreement with Rejecwater, see diff.
Thanks so much for the Support! — Cirt (talk) 14:07, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Red Phoenix (addressed)

Thanks very much for your Support! — Cirt (talk) 02:56, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Taylor Trescott (addressed)

  • Support This is an excellent article on a very interesting and educational film. I especially like all the OTRS free images. Well-cited to reliable sources, feels very complete, and was a nice read. Good work, easily deserves the star. Just one quick question: Citation #7 is the DVD Verdict review which is used to source some quotes in the Contents summary. Any reason why this review is not summarized in the Reception section? Regards, Taylor Trescott - my talk + my edits 00:36, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the Support. Also, Done. -- I've gone ahead and added DVD Verdict to the Reception section, per your suggestion. — Cirt (talk) 00:53, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source check and comments from Gen. Quon (addressed)

  • Random Source Check - Ref 11. is correctly used to cite how many times the word 'fuck' is used and to back up a point about how the director feels that other directors should fight against censorship. Ref. 31 accurately backs up the claim that the word gained its current meaning during the world wars and how its flippancy is beneficial. Ref. 34 correctly backs up info regarding Apollo 16. Ref. 56 correctly cites that the AFI festival is at the ArcLight Hollywood on Sunset Boulevard in Hollywood, California. Ref. 60 cites that the film was shown at the Florida Film Festival. These were all randomly picked, and were all completely accurate. The prose is excellent (I fixed a few boo-boos) and the images are wonderful. Thus, I see no reason other than to Support this article's promotion.--Gen. Quon (Talk) 04:42, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a lot for the Source Check and the Support. I really appreciate your comments, particularly, "The prose is excellent ... and the images are wonderful.". Thanks again, — Cirt (talk) 12:45, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Wehwalt (addressed)

Addressed comments from Wehwalt moved to talk page, per agreement with user, see diff.
Thank you very much for your Support. — Cirt (talk) 14:08, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Jimfbleak (addressed)

Addressed comments by Jimfbleak moved to talk page, per agreement with user, see diff.
Thanks very much for your Support. — Cirt (talk) 13:13, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image check from GermanJoe (addressed)

Image check - all OK (CC, own work, OTRS). Sources and authors provided (agree, nice work with the OTRS-tickets). Just 1 nitpick (Done):

Comments from Quadell (addressed)

Addressed comments from Quadell moved to talk page, per agreement with user, see diff.

No further objections. Also, the lead, images, and sourcing all seem satisfactory. Note that this is not a full review, but it doesn't look like this nomination will suffer from a lack of reviews. – Quadell (talk) 14:50, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much! Your comments, "Also, the lead, images, and sourcing all seem satisfactory.", are most kind! :) — Cirt (talk) 14:57, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments:

  • I have cleaned up minor comma issues in the lead.
  • The lead uses a serial comma in "linguist Reinhold Albert Aman, journalism analyst David Shaw, and Jesse Sheidlower of the Oxford English Dictionary", but omits one in "art, linguistics, society and comedy". Please be sure the entire article either omits or uses the serial comma consistently.
  • The term "primarily mixed reviews" is usually a poor choice, and it's a pet peeve of mine. If a film received "mixed" reviews, that means the reviews aren't primarily anything, either positive or negative. ("Primarily mixed reviews" an annoyingly common term on Wikipedia, however.) Anyway, consider "mixed reviews" or "both positive and negative reviews" or something similar.
  • I don't see any further problems with the lead. It effectively summarizes the article, and provides a proverbial "hook". Yes, it does feel a bit choppy to go from one celebrity's random thought to the next loosely-related thought, but I've seen the film; it's a choppy mishmash of themes around a charged word. I don't think any accurate, brief summary could seem much more fluid than what this lead provides. I have not copyedited the rest of the article. – Quadell (talk) 14:35, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Response to further comments from Quadell
  1. Thank you for the helpful cleanup of minor comma issues in the lead.
  2. Done. removed the serial comma usage here.
  3. Done. removed "primarily", changed to just "mixed reviews".
  4. Thank you, Quadell, for your helpful feedback, particularly your comments: "I don't see any further problems with the lead. It effectively summarizes the article, and provides a proverbial "hook". Yes, it does feel a bit choppy to go from one celebrity's random thought to the next loosely-related thought, but I've seen the film; it's a choppy mishmash of themes around a charged word. I don't think any accurate, brief summary could seem much more fluid than what this lead provides." That is most appreciated. Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 19:02, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Indopug

strongly oppose the lead

The lead is largely unreadable, thanks to excessive name-dropping—of disciplines, celebrities, scholars, songs and media outlets—contributing to a "sea of blue" effect thanks to the wikilinks (overlong book names don't help). Instead of going on in such detail about who participated in the film, you should concentrate on what the film is about. Apart from "a defence of free speech" the reader really doesn't glean much.

Also, by expunging the names and details, you could build an engaging narrative—what was the idea behind the film, how it was made, what's it about, was it well received, was it a hit, how did scholars see the film, was it controversial—much more clearly than now.—(self-locked-out User:Indopug)122.164.151.173 (talk) 08:01, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for these helpful comments, User:Indopug, I shall get on addressing them right now. — Cirt (talk) 18:15, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Response to comments from Indopug
  1. Done. Reduced number of disciplines mentioned in the lead.
  2. Done. Trimmed number of celebrities name-dropped in the lead.
  3. Done. Copy-edited lead to reflect more actual information from film's contents, rather than simply listing celebrities.
  4. Done. Removed mention of the songs from the lead.
  5. Done. Removed wikilinks and "sea of blue" from the lead.
  6. Done. Trimmed overlong book name in the lead.

Thank you very much, User:Indopug, I think the lead now looks much better. Most appreciated, — Cirt (talk) 18:35, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Cirt, I realise you've pinged Indopug to check over the changes and he hasn't as returned here as yet. Failing that I'd like to see someone else take another look over the lead as it is, indeed the entire article from a purely prose point of view (John perhaps?). The plot summary, as an example, seems a bit choppy to me and I think could use another set of eyes. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:06, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ian Rose, the article already received a copy edit from Miniapolis from WP:GOCE and a peer review and there are positive comments about the prose from multiple editors, above at this FAC, including Wehwalt. But sure, further input on how to improve the quality of the prose is always appreciated. I had just thought the FAC was progressing quite nicely in a constructive manner, I admit it is a bit frustrating to see it stalemated especially with such good level of positive participation and comments expressed about its quality, above at this FAC. Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 18:58, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if you read the peer review, I did not think the synopsis was the strongest point of the article. But when I looked at it on my read over at FAC, it looked good enough. One of the hardest things about reviewing is biting your tongue when you would do it differently but the way the editor did it was OK, and in a close call I tend to go with the judgment of an experienced editor Not saying others couldn't view it differently..--Wehwalt (talk) 19:53, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I see, that certainly makes sense, Wehwalt, thank you. Please note I made some changes with respect to additional helpful feedback from Quadell, above. Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 20:35, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from John

Cirt asked me to take a look and I am doing so. From an initial read I can see changes I would make to the prose. Many of them would probably be pretty minor and uncontroversial and I intend to just make them in the article and note it here for your approval. But there's one that leaps out at me that isn't simple; it's the lead sentence Fuck (styled as FUCK, F★CK, or F*CK;[1][2] alternatively titled Fuck: A Documentary and The F-Bomb: A Documentary[3][4]) is a 2005 American documentary film by director Steve Anderson which argues that the word "fuck" is an integral part of societal discussions about freedom of speech and censorship. I see the multiple renderings of the title and their multiple references as pretty intrusive right at the start of the article. If we were to streamline this to something like Fuck (styled as F*CK; alternatively titled The F-Bomb: A DocumentaryNB) is a 2005 American documentary film by director Steve Anderson about the word "fuck". The film argues that the word is an integral part of societal discussions about freedom of speech and censorship., would we want to keep ★ or * as the censorship mark? We certainly don't need to record the all-caps, the different typographical stars, or the presence of the subtitle "A Documentary", and we shouldn't need to have multiple references for them in the lead. We could even use a note to a fuller set of sources where I've typed NB. What do folks think? Don't worry, I won't be this verbose or nitpicky through the rest of the review. --John (talk) 18:08, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This might also be a good place for a footnote; all the alternate titles could be listed there. – Quadell (talk) 18:49, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, that's what I had in mind with the NB suggestion above, sorry I wasn't clear. --John (talk) 19:26, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done. I've broken up that sentence as suggested by John, above. I've also moved the alternative titles to a footnote, as suggestd by John and Quadell, above. I don't know why I didn't think of that before, it looks much better this way! Please note the reason I added those alternate titles to the lede in the first place was because of a request from a talk page visitor, see Talk:Fuck_(film)/Archive_1#Alternate_titles. Thank you, John, for your input, keep us posted with the prose changes, — Cirt (talk) 19:54, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) Ah yes, suddenly I can see "use a note" right there. I guess the bad news is, I'll have to reduce my self-evaluated "reading comprehension" score tad. But the good news is, great minds think alike? Regardless, it looks as if Cirt has implemented this. – Quadell (talk) 19:57, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Quadell, thanks to the wise suggestion of John, I think this particular minor issue is now resolved. :) Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 20:08, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
John, your copy-edits are excellent, except one: "It's a two billion dollar bushiness". Thought I'd bring it to your attention, though I must admit, it's quite an amusing mental image! All the best, – Quadell (talk) 20:03, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, good catch Quadell, I think that was an autocomplete error there. So, with that correction, we have this this series of edits; main thrust was improving flow by removing wordiness. Beware of elegant variation and especially trying to use as many synonyms for "said" as possible. A little repetition is preferable to looking like you were using a thesaurus. "A number of" just means "several" or "many" so use the shorter form. We don't need to link countries or put items in See also that are already linked. I've slimmed the article down and made it more readable without losing any meaning from it. I might have one further look at it but this is the bulk of what I wanted to do. --John (talk) 21:08, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I've gone through all the copy edits by John edit-by-edit and they all look great. :) Thanks very much, most appreciated, — Cirt (talk) 21:19, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I have two further questions before I can support.
1) I've no doubt that These scholars are described in captions as "cunning linguists".[16] is true; but do we need to say that in the article? It seems to lower the tone a little, but maybe that is just me being prudish.
2) Somewhat similarly, In the film, opponents of the word "fuck" use an argument commonly known as "Think of the children".[23][b] is no doubt true also, but is it explicitly stated in these terms in the source and if so, is it important enough to mention? If yes, do we need to mention it and link it twice, one in the text and once in a footnote?
I don't think I'll have any further questions after these are addressed. --John (talk) 21:31, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Removed this bit from the article.
Done. Added quote from source to the citation to make this more clear that this was the exact point made by the secondary source.
Done. Removed one of the links for this, it is now linked only once in a footnote.
Okay, John, those are all now addressed, as well. — Cirt (talk) 21:36, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks very much, John, for your Support. All of your copy editing help is most appreciated, — Cirt (talk) 21:45, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:02, 22 November 2013 (UTC) [4].[reply]

Paul Henderson

Nominator(s): Resolute 01:13, 19 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Americans of a certain generation have Neil Armstrong and the moon landing. Canadians of a certain generation have, what else? Hockey. We have the 1972 Summit Series, the final game of which nearly brought two nations to a complete stand-still. A Cold War battle for national pride, hockey supremacy, and validation of way of life. In the dying seconds of the final game, Paul Henderson scored the most famous goal in Canadian hockey history. It won the series, saved a nation's pride and instantly transformed him from decent hockey player to living legend. But what else should one expect from a man born on Lake Huron and today a Christian minister and published author?

Last year's 40th anniversary of the Summit Series inspired me to improve Henderson's article, and it reached GA status in November. It went through peer review a few months ago, and after completing another FAC, I've spent the last several days preparing it for your comments, criticism, and hopefully, support. I appreciate all feedback. Cheers! Resolute 01:13, 19 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Bear with me, I'm a bit of a first timer at this sort of targeted source reviewing: I see one deadlink and no dab links or harv errors. Would love it if you used citation templates (especially as minor errors like the spacing errors in #56 and #80 are less likely to happen), but to each their own. Otherwise, sources look reliable to me (mainly just historical Canadian newspapers). Ruby 2010/2013 04:10, 19 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ahh dammitsomuch. I thought I checked for deadlinks before nominating. Thanks for catching that. I've replaced all four uses from that source with others. And thank you for taking the time to review the sources! Resolute 15:32, 19 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: Generally, this is very good and certainly very readable. The coverage and content seems to be top-notch as usual. However, there are a few prose issues which need to be tidied. Also, and unusually for a hockey article, perhaps a little too much is expected of the reader in terms of jargon. There are plenty of links, but rather than have the reader follow the links, perhaps a little more explanation could be given here. Not a huge issue, though. Sarastro1 (talk) 23:07, 19 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • "the series was viewed as a battle for both hockey supremacy and way of life": Although I appreciate what is intended here, I'm not sure that "way of life" was at stake here! Maybe something along the lines of cultural supremacy?
  • There is nothing on his early life in the lead.
  • "It was voted the "sports moment of the century"": By who?
  • "A born again Christian": Should this be "born-again Christian"? I'm never sure on hyphens.
  • "His father, Garnet, was fighting for Canada during the Second World War at the time and Paul was nearly three years old before they met": As the previous sentence was about his mother, this looks a little like his mother and father did not meet until Paul was nearly three.
  • "Garnet worked for the Canadian National Railway following his return and the family – Paul was the eldest to brother Bruce and sisters Marilyn, Carolyn and Sandra –[3]": MoS says that the reference should go before the dash.
  • "Paul's first experiences with hockey came at a young age in the basement of the Chinese restaurant operated by Charlie Chin": Perhaps elaborate how he could play hockey in a basement.
  • I am not sure how at first blush. It is probably a case of a kid picking up a stick and whacking a ball or puck off the walls. I'm hoping that Henderson's autobiography expands on this. Resolute 01:07, 20 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His father coached his youth teams, and at one pee-wee tournament": I'm a little uncomfortable with the use of "pee-wee" here because a) I suspect it is not widely known what this means outside North America, and b) it lacks the formality that should be found in an encyclopaedia. The link goes to "minor hockey"; why not say that?
  • "They married in 1962 and he considered giving up the game to become a history and physical education teacher": The use of "and" suggests that he considered this because of his marriage, but could it be expanded why he considered doing so?
  • Points linked in the lead, but not on first mention in the body, which is the convention used in the rest of the article.
  • "In his second, he took a slashing penalty on his lone shift.": This loses me, I'm afraid.
  • "Henderson estimated that he played only 20 seconds of ice time over the two games, but took nine penalties in minutes": So does this, and I think "ice time" is a bit jargony.
  • "using his speed and aggressive nature to score 10 goals and 24 points": I imagine he used a stick, rather than speed and an aggressive nature! Maybe "and his speed and aggression/aggressive nature helped him to score…"?
  • "He was used primarily in a defensive role and on the penalty kill": Not too clear on a penalty kill, but I suspect that linking is the only efficient way to explain it.
  • "The Maple Leafs offered Henderson only a small raise following the year": Following the year sounds a little odd to me. It looks like a typo for "the following year" but I suspect something like "after the season" is the meaning. Maybe clarify?
  • That is the meaning, but I was trying to avoid repetition on use of "season". After consideration, I simply removed "following the year" as it is implied that the contract offer followed the season. Do you agree? Resolute 01:07, 20 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "European teams masked the status of their best players by having them serve in the military or hold other jobs affiliated with the teams, even though hockey was their only occupation, so as to retain amateur status": The source merely says this of the Soviet Union team, and it seems a little harsh to suggest that all European teams did this.
  • Oh man, I could go for hours on the level of corruption within the IIHF at that time, but it wouldn't be relevant. While I do believe it was most European nations (certainly the Czechs were the same), I have changed it to reference only the Soviet Union after consulting another source that also only mentioned them. But these are in the context of the Summit Series, so I may revisit this if I search out a broader source. Resolute 01:07, 20 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Henderson, like most of his teammates, were frustrated by both his team's play": As written, this can read like Henderson played for two teams.
  • "while Canada virtually shut down": Whatever the source may say, this strikes me as something of a wild exaggeration. Maybe reword to tone it down a little, and to make it more encyclopaedic. To be honest, the next sentence about offices and schools would seem to be enough by itself.
  • Amazingly, it isn't. Something like 73% of the Canadian population watched the game. But I did remove the statement and joined the Russian viewership with the subsequent statement on Canadian. Resolute 01:07, 20 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The two teams ended the first period tied at two goals apiece, but Canada trailed after two, 5–3, and Soviet officials stated they would claim the overall victory if the game ended in a draw as a result of scoring more goals throughout the series": Canada trailed after two what? Also, as written it looks as if the Soviets claimed in the middle of the game that they would win on goals scored. Is this true? If not, when was the claim made?
  • "when Peter Mahovlich came off on a line change": Jargony?
  • I get the impression that his move to the WHA may have been a huge deal; I'm assuming some kind of commercial rivalry, and that "poaching" of players would have caused publicity. If this was the case, maybe a sentence or two on the NHL/WHA relationship would help the general reader?
  • "The WHA merged with the NHL following the 1978–79 season, however Birmingham was not invited to join the NHL": The grammar is a bit off here: however cannot be used like this; a new sentence, semi-colon, or a different word is needed.
  • "He was again offered a spot on the Flames, in part to help develop the team's young players, however since the franchise relocated to Canada…": Again, however cannot be used like this.
  • There are three howevers in the Atlanta section, which seems to be too many. Also three in personal life, where however is used incorrectly again ("…to become a colour commentator for Maple Leafs broadcasts in 1981, however Ballard…" and "...40th anniversary celebrations of the Summit Series in Moscow,[94] however he was responding well…")
  • Why is the citation for the statistics given in the form it is in the references, rather than as a reference for the table?
  • Personal choice mostly, and an unofficial standard I've developed over time on all of my FA and GAs. I don't really like floating reference superscripts and find this to be the cleaner solution. Resolute 01:07, 20 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • We have a good legacy section, but apart from his comment that he did not deserve to be in the hall of fame, there is little critical judgement on his career. How good was he? What did coaches/journalists/fans think of him? Also, can we say anything about his style or technique? Perhaps a little more is required on these lines, if it exists. Sarastro1 (talk) 23:07, 19 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I made a small addition about his speed, shot and lack of puck handling skill. But as expected, nearly everything I can find relates to either the Summit Series or whether he should be in the HHOF because of the Summit Series. Resolute 02:10, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support: I'm happy to support now. The only remaining question for me is whether the lead is enough. I'm fine with it, but others may disagree. I think it may also need a check from a non-sports reader, but I followed this well enough despite having learned what little I know about hockey from WP articles! Nice work as usual. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:58, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

  • Detroit and Toronto: One too many words in "It was came late in the game...".
  • Summit Series: "Henderson, like most of his teammates, were frustrated by his team's play and the negative reaction they received from the crowd." "were" → "was", since the word refers to Henderson.
  • It might be good to spell out the publisher of ref 78 (IIHF). Giants2008 (Talk) 01:32, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • I am rather indifferent to the signature myself. I simply left it because it was already there, but have no issue with removing it if there is any concern. Of course, it would have helped if the source of the image were included in the image description. Removed. Resolute 16:30, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Hamiltonstone

Support generally on prose and accessability to a lay reader - looks like Sarastro's review was a big help in this department. I haven't reviewed things like sourcing and if the article had any technical errors, I wouldn't be able to tell. Couple of points for improvement:

  • Can a link or explanation be provided for what an "assist" is?
  • Second para of the "junior" section: the expression "clinching game" is used twice. Can this be varied, eg, "decider"?
  • "Detroit and Toronto" section has this: "but as the fourth line right wing, received limited ice time. He was used primarily in a defensive role and on the penalty kill." I know both "line" and "penalty kill" have been wikilinked, but is there any chance of telling us non-Hockey people what either of these things means, in a way that might advance our understanding of Henderson's qualities as a player?

That 1972 series story is a great one, and not something of which I had previously heard. hamiltonstone (talk) 12:25, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Changed the first two. On the third, I'll have to go back to Henderson's autobiography to see if he expanded on his role at that time beyond what I wrote. I'll have to get the book from the library. Resolute 20:38, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • If that's what's needed, then okay, but it wasn't quite what i had had in mind. I suppose what I meant was: what are the characteristics involved in being "fourth line right wing" or "on the penalty kill"? A non-Hockey person has no idea - do these imply, for example, he was only a good offensive player; or defensive player; or not very experienced player; or good at hitting penalty shots; or whatever? That was all I meant...
  • On the former, this is actually a more complicated question than you think. A standard roster runs four forward lines and the top lines usually have the best offensive players, working down to least offensive. But in a case like Henderson, the reason for his being on the fourth line very likely had little to do with a lack of offensive ability, but simple inexperience and/or Detroit having at least three players at right wing who were rated as better players by the coaching staff at that time. So in that respect, Henderson being on the fourth line at that time doesn't necessarily imply anything about his skills. It merely defines the role he was asked to play at that time: defence-oriented. As to being a penalty killer, I am not actually sure how I could word that within the article that isn't already explained by the linked article to short handed. I am certainly open to suggestions! As to PIM, I would rather not change the format of the table if I can avoid it since this is how it is rendered on a few thousand articles. I did modify the lead to the linked Penalty (ice hockey) article to make PIM stand out. Is this sufficient? Thanks, Resolute 19:00, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Regarding the latter, what about using a 'hover over' text such as is achieved by {{Win-loss record|w=1|l=2|d=1}} elsewhere in the article? Yes there may be thousands, but there's only one you're getting to FA right now :-) hamiltonstone (talk) 23:25, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hmm. I just tried that, but the wikilink overrides the hover text. Resolute 01:30, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • As to the first concern - would it help if I removed the mention that he was on the fourth line, and instead only noted that he received limited ice time in a defensive role? That way you aren't left trying to assimilate two foreign concepts in quick succession. Resolute 01:32, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Rejectwater

Support with comments. I left a lot of comments on this article when it was at peer review and they were mostly addressed. It was a high quality article at the time, and many of my comments were quite picky. I think it meets the criteria, but I do have a few more comments. These do not stand in the way of me adding my support, but may be worth Resolute's time:

  • I generally agree with Sarastro regarding jargon, and did mention this at the PR, I think it's improved enough however.
  • "The game was also notable for Bobby Clarke's two-handed slash" - could a less jargony term or phrase than "slash" be used here?
  • "It was also viewed as a battle between contrasting ways of life, particularly in the Soviet Union, where success in sport was used to promote the superiority of communism over western capitalism" -- is Henderson himself a good source for this statement?
  • "An angered Ballard never forgave Henderson, and never spoke to him again" -- mentioned this in the PR, but I think this statement needs a more reliable source than Henderson himself.
  • The career statistics reference listed under footnotes is giving me a harv error. Should it be moved from footnotes to its own section below general?

Those are all I have. I'm not the greatest with prose, but found not glaring problems. Good work on the article, and sorry it took so long for me to give it another read over. -- Shudde talk 09:43, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you again for the review! I've tried to modify the piece on Clarke's slash a little, and pulled a second ref in to reinforce the battle statement. FWIW, that entire chapter in the book treats Henderson in the third person. I am given to believe Prime wrote the majority of that chapter. On Ballard, I did consider your comments from the PR, but I believe that the only two people who could state for certain that they never spoke again are Henderson and Ballard. This is one case where I believe Henderson is the best source. (In his latest book, he expanded on how he tried to bury the hatchet with no success). And moved the career stats into general. Hopefully that resolves your error! Thanks, Resolute 22:44, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:03, 22 November 2013 (UTC) [5].[reply]

Lionel Palairet

Nominator(s): Harrias talk 14:28, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's a while since I've been to FAC, but I have spent some time tidying this article, and I think it is now just about as ready I can get it. Most of the eyes that have looked over this article so far have been ones that are reasonably knowledgeable about cricket, so it could certainly do with a jargon check. As always, all comments and thoughts are eagerly anticipated! Harrias talk 14:28, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Support: I commented extensively at the PR, and had few concerns then or now. From a cricketing and sourcing viewpoint, this one is absolutely spot on, but I may have missed a little jargon here and there. But it certainly meets the criteria. Nice work, and it would be good to have a few more Somerset cricketers at FAC. Just a few last little points below which do not affect my support. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:42, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • I still have a few reservations about ""placed him fifth amongst his peers". But perhaps it's just me.
  • "The strength of Palairet's off side strokes blunted the tactic, and helped him to score more effectively": Still not quite sure about this. What about "The strength of Palairet's off side strokes helped him to score effectively against this tactic". (And, as an aside, I still suspect, knowing CB Fry, that his comment may have been a little dig about leg-side play. But maybe I'm being uncharitable)
  • I notice that when the comment about the "modern game" were removed, so was the mention that he favoured "lofted" shots. Perhaps that part is worth keeping as a point about his style. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:42, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – I also offered comments at the PR, and think this meets the high standards that have been established by our batch of cricket bio FAs. This will make another nice addition to that group. Giants2008 (Talk) 23:02, 15 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Brief comment. Surely "nought" or similar should replace the three instances of "zero". EddieHugh (talk) 14:46, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure why. The correct expression would be a duck, but I'm not sure that is encyclopaedic, and zero is as accurate as anything else. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:10, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I can't remember reading or hearing "zero" used in relation to cricket, at least in the UK. EddieHugh (talk) 10:38, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As Sarastro1 says, generally "a duck" would be used, but the sentence flow would be badly affected to wedge that in. I'll have a look, but I don't see any advantage to "nought" over "zero". Harrias talk 12:13, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support: This is a well-written article and meets the FA standards. I don't have any issue with the article, I kept an eye on the article since it was at GAN and PR. Zia Khan 00:16, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: There are numerous small prose glitches in the "Personal life" section, which is the only one I have read so far.

  • Unwarranted use of mdashes in the first sentence. The enclosed phrase is a natural part of the sentence; commas are the appropriate punctuation here.
  • A colon, not a semicolon, should follow "two children"
  • No comma should follow "Henry Edward Hamilton"
  • "In addition to cricket, he also maintained..." The word "also" is redundant, given "In addition to..."
  • The words in quotes – "admits that..." etc – are presented as though they were Palairet's, which they are not. A correct format would be "a 1901 profile of Palairet in Baily's Magazine of Sports and Pastimes records that foxhunting "holds the first place in his heart." Or do a complete paraphrase, e.g. "...records that foxhunting was his primary sporting interest".
  • "He captained Devon either side of the First World War, from 1914 through until 1926, and was also president of the union from 1923 until 1932." You need to be clearer that captained Devon at golf, and that the "union" is the Devon County Golf Union – the lower case might mislead.
  • "He developed the idea of an inter-club team championship within Devon, and donated the trophy, which remains named the Palairet Trophy." Clunky, avoidable repetition of "trophy"
  • Not clear when Palairet served as the Earl of Devon'a land agent. The sentence begins "During the First World War..."
    • Unfortunately, I can't find a source that gives me a definitive answer. He certainly was in 1905, as well as during the First World War. The assumption would obviously be that he continued in the role throughout, but I have nothing to verify that, so I can't really be much clearer I'm afraid. Harrias talk 16:42, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • The words "for whom he served as a land agent" can be deleted from this section, as you have mentioned his employment earlier in the article. Also the Earl of Devon has been linked earlier. See my further comment on the "Later county career" section. Brianboulton (talk) 19:03, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's quite a few issues for one short section, and there are likely to be similar problems in other parts of the text, so I don't think the article is ready for promotion just yet. I will review the remaining sections over the next day or so. Brianboulton (talk) 22:56, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review so far Brian. I'm unlikely to be able to do much on this until the weekend, but if you find the time to review the remaining sections before then, please feel free: a long list won't overwhelm me! Regards, Harrias talk 06:41, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You may have already had it on your list, Brian, but if you could include a source review with your additional comments that'd be great. Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:22, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I'll do the sources review. Instead of leaving a long list of prose quibbles, I am copyediting the article, and expect to leave a much shorter list of issues I can't resolve myself. Brianboulton (talk) 00:15, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments: I knew very little about Palairet before reading this article, and you are to be congratulated on finding out this much about him, in the absence of a full-length biography. Definitely a commendable research effort. However, I found the prose rather ragged at times – a bit surprising, this, given a GA review and several supports at FAC. The chief recurring problems, which I have mainly copyedited, were: beginning new paragraphs with pronouns; misuse of colons and confusion with semicolons; tendencies to "sportspeak" – for example, batsmen are not "propelled" towards certain totals. I can't guarantee that my copyedits have caught all these problems, and a final check might be useful. There are a few issues, listed below, that I need to raise with you:

Early life
  • Readers may wonder how someone who lived in Dorset and was educated in Derbyshire qualified "on the basis residence" to play for Somerset.
    • Indeed: especially as the quoted source does not actually mention it. In the absence of a source that specifically lists this (I'm sure there was one, but can I find it??) I have removed the bit about his qualification. If I find the relevant source, I'll add it back in with better explanation. Harrias talk 11:50, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
University and county cricketer
  • Another reviewer has raised the matter of "zero". This term is not part of cricket's idiom and should not be used, particularly in a potential featured article. "Nought" is the usual formal term: "a duck" is perhaps too informal for an encyclopedia (though I see you have used it twice). There are other formulations that can be used in appropriate circumstances, e.g. "out without scoring", but "zero" has to go (three usages all told).
  • "his first half-century" – I imagine you mean in first-class cricket.
  • Link Lord Hawke at first mention (he is linked in a later section)
  • The term "varsity match" is English public school slang, and shouldn't be used in an encyclopedia
  • "out for a duck" → "out without scoring" (see above)?
  • You say that Palairet's selections for the 1893 University Match were questioned, but don't say on what basis. Why were his selections controversial?
Leading amateur batsman
  • Perhaps you should explain that "Arthur Shrewsbury's England XI" was not a representative side
  • "including his brother" – if not before, this is the time when the brother, R.C.N. should be introduced by name.
  • "there was some suggestion that but for this he would likely have appeared for England against Australia that summer." Two points: "there was some suggestion" – was this contemporary press speculation, or was it the retrospective opinion of later commentators? Also: "he would likely have appeared for England". The word "likely" seems unnecessary, given that you are reporting a "suggestion" of something that might have happened.
  • "In 1901, Palairet also scored big hundreds against Lancashire, 182 runs and an opening partnership of 225 with Braund; and Sussex, 194 runs and an opening partnership of 258 with Talbot Lewis." This is almost impossible to decipher, and needs to be rewritten as something more comprehensible. Note: "big hundreds" is journalistic cricketspeak and shouldn't appear in an encyclopedia.
Later county career
  • I would specify "Bath cricket festival" (with lower case f) rather than "Bath Festival", which term usually means the Bath International Music Festival
  • "The cricket historian David Foot describes 1904 and the subsequent few seasons as undistinguished" - undistinguished for whom: Palairet individually? Somerset collectively? The whole of cricket? Please clarify.
  • You mention en passant "his work as a land agent for the Earl of Devon". It would be useful to know when this began - I had been wondering for some time how Palairet earned his living, given that he played as an amateur.
    • From what I read, I imagine that this was one of those amenable jobs that tended to fall to well-connected sportsmen. In the absence of anything more detailed you can't really add to it – though I recommend you change "focussing on" to "to concentrate on". Brianboulton (talk) 19:03, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • You include a summary of his career batting statistics – why not his bowling? He took 143 wickets, after all.
Style and technique
  • "...a key factor in his not developing such a range of leg side shots." Reads very clumsily. Perhaps "a key factor in limiting his range of leg side shots.
  • "Although considered a stylish batsman, David Foot describes Palairet..." David Foot was considered a stylish batsman?
  • The sentences about his Harlequin cap and his aloofness are not really part of "style and technique", and could perhaps be inserted elsewhere in the article.

I have already commented on the Personal life section. One further point: there is very little in the article about Palairet's activities outside cricket, no doubt reflecting the paucity of sources. I did find that he played football for the Corinthians, a well-known and high-class amateur side at the turn of the 20th century (they once beat Manchester United 11–3). He was also a competent long-distance runner in his Oxford days, and represented the university in the three miles event. I can give you sources for these snippets.

Thanks for all your copyediting work on the article: I'll try and learn from my mistakes for future articles! Just to quickly respond to this point: the end of the University and county cricketer section mentions that he played for Corinthians, and that he ran the three mile race already: do your sources go into any more depth worth mentioning? Harrias talk 18:15, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oh dear, I overlooked that you already had this information. My source does not really give anything more than you have. In a long chapter in his autobiography on football and the Corinthians, C.B. Fry mentions dozens of names of players – but not Palairet, who may not have played many matches. Brianboulton (talk) 23:30, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I will add a sources review when the above points are answered. Please ping when you're through. Brianboulton (talk) 18:11, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Harrias, it's been almost a week since these comments were raised. The review as a whole has been open almost six weeks and needs to conclude so pls address as a matter of urgency. Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:30, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ian Rose, I'm just working on some of it at the moment. I have a baby daughter, so I'm trying to steal time where I can, but it is in short supply. I don't offer this as an excuse, merely a reason, and if the time comes to close this, don't worry about having to do so. If it comes to that, I'll just work on the article and then renominate. Harrias talk 13:33, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Quite understand, we're all volunteers and RL has to come first. For future reference, if you're unable to work on a nomination for a while then you can always leave a quick note to that effect, if feasible. Anyway, let's see how you go over the next couple of days... Best, Ian Rose (talk) 13:42, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I'll be honest, I somewhat underestimated fatherhood! I kept thinking I'd have a few minutes to work on a few points, and then just didn't! But yes, I'll see what I can do over the weekend: I have no real free time in the working week. Harrias talk 13:48, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have dealt with a number of the points, and some are still left to do. I have marked those above, more as an indicator to me than anything else. Brianboulton, I have left a few comments on some of your points that I would appreciate further guidance on if possible. Hopefully I will get some more work done on this tomorrow. My thanks for your help. Harrias talk 16:42, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Brianboulton, I think I have now completed each of the points you have raised, though there are a couple of points on which I am unsure if I have truly improved the article with my change! I look forward to your further comments and sources review. Harrias talk 12:13, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You have adequately answered my points, except that the non-representative nature of "Arthur Shrewsbury's XI" still needs to clarified. Leaning to support now; I will try to do the sources review tomorrow. Brianboulton (talk) 00:32, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I added a footnote at the end of the sentence: is that a bit too far removed? Harrias talk 07:42, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That will do fine. Brianboulton (talk) 15:21, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review

  • In general, sources look of appropriately high quality and reliability. See below for one at which I have raised an eyebrow.
  • Limited spotchecking reveals no apparent propblems with copyvio.
  • I have added OCLC numbers for the pre-ISBN books. For future reference, these numbers can generally be found by searching the Worldcat site. The "cite book" template has an "oclc= " field.
  • Ref 29 should be in short citation form, to be consistent with 69 and 73
  • Ref 78 – the eyebrow-raiser. Is there any reason for choosing an obscure Jamaican local newspaper as your source for the fact, widely acknowledged in all the main cricketing histories, that the 1902 Australians were one of the strongest teams to visit these shores?
  • Ref 93 needs page numbers for the Palairet photos - or at least for one or two, as examples.
  • Ref 101 is a dead link

These should be relatively straightforward to fix. Congratulations on the baby daughter, by the way, and I hope there are not too many sleepless nights. Brianboulton (talk) 15:21, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have tidied the references as requested, and removed the dead link altogether, all it supported was the fact that Palairet donated the trophy itself. I can't find another reference for this at the moment, but given that it doesn't seem a highly contentious point, I'm not sure if it is necessary to remove that information? Ref 78: it is a strange one, isn't it! I fear this was me being lazy. I knew that the 1902 team was considered very strong, and I knew it was mentioned in a number of my books, but rather than hunt through them for a solid reference, I Googled it – busted. My cricket books are currently inaccessible, but I'll try to delve out a stronger cricketing reference for this in the next few days. Harrias talk 21:55, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am sure you can be trusted to replace 78 with something more conventional. I don't think the information about the trophy is important enough to warrant searching for a source, and I'd be inclined to leave it out, as you have now. I believe the article is now in good shape, and am pleased to add my support. Brianboulton (talk) 23:35, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Notes -- Harrias, if you haven't been to FAC for a while (a belated welcome back in that case!) then you may or may not be aware of Ucucha's handy duplicate link checker. I found a few instances with it, some of which may be justified if there's a lot of space between first and subsequent links, but pls review any case. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:50, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that: I've added it to my toolbox! I've removed a number of duplicated links thanks to it, though I have left a couple in place that I feel are justified. Harrias talk 15:37, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 19 November 2013 (UTC) [6].[reply]

Homer Davenport

Nominator(s): Montanabw (talk), Wehwalt (talk) 13:42, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We are nominating this for featured article because… we think it meets the criteria. Homer Davenport's cartoons in the 1896, 1900, and 1904 presidential races played were influential, affecting how people perceived the candidates. But that was just one facet of his life, as his interest in animals, especially his importation of Arabian horses in 1906 following an epic journey in the Middle East, may be an even greater legacy. He died young after a life not entirely happy, but his name lives on in political cartooning and the world of horses. Enjoy. Wehwalt (talk) 13:42, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Quadell

Comments from Quadell

Preliminary impressions:

  • The references really need to be cleaned up. I found "pp." statements with a single page, hyphens and en-dashes intermixed for page numbers, capital "P." instead of "p.", references giving pages without "p." at all, miscellaneous spacing issues, two authors separated by "and" in one instance and "&" in another, etc.
  • We'll start taking a whack at that, also have no objection if you want to dive in. Personally, my eyesight is poor and it is extremely difficult for me to spot spacing issues, so anyone who can help there is most welcome to do so! --Montanabw
  • Quadell, I did a run through of the p and pp issue, I THINK I got them all, but if not, can you possibly either just tweak those or point me to the problem ones? I found only one spacing issue... like I say, my eyesight sucks and I rely heavily on word searches... --Montanabw
  • On the & issue, I think the only place I see this is Huot & Powers in the citations?? Are there others?? If only that source, I shall defer to Wehwalt, as that's his book. --Montanabw
Yes, I can help with reference formatting. I actually enjoy that sort of thing, but I don't usually make such edits to FACs unless I'm invited to do so. I'll go through it in the next few days. – Quadell (talk) 20:52, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Consider yourself invited! Wikignoming is always helpful from my end! Thanks! Montanabw(talk) 21:49, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, cool. I've standardized the references as well as I can. There are only two possible issues left. (I did not fix them, since I wasn't sure how you wanted them handled.) First, the "Huot & Powers" reference uses an asterisk [late edit: ampersand! Doh!] for multiple authors, while the "Carver, Charles and Jeanne" references spells out the word "and". Second, different references format years and dates differently. (Compare "Wells, November 1905, p. 416" with "Fowler, J.A. (May, 1905)...", or "Retrieved 2013-10-13" with "Retrieved September 7, 2012".) – Quadell (talk) 21:56, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'll clean up the access date formatting. I'll just put "and" with Huot and Powers. On the other, I don't think we really have to fix that IMHO, as the differences there is one uses a template at the cite and presents a full citation, while the other references a book listed down in the sources section and is thus a short form citation. But if that is still an issue we can discuss? --Montanabw
In my opinion, all reference-formatting issues have been resolved. (Some FAC reviewers may be more picky, however.) – Quadell (talk) 20:13, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think it complies with our MoS to have a "See also" link to a section in an article, with an em-dash in the link, the way it is done here. (I could be wrong about this...)
    Can you check the MOS? If you are correct, we'll gladly change it. As it sits, though, it is a help to the reader to have the piped link, so let us know if it's must the em-dash that troubles you or how we can better format the piped link. --Montanabw
    It seems I was thinking of the MoS on disambiguation pages. Nothing in the MoS specifically discourages links to sections of articles in "See also" sections, nor can I find suggestions on how to do so. Spaced em-dashes are generally frowned upon, though. I suspect there is a cleaner way to link to this, but I'm not sure what it would be. Unless someone comes up with a specific suggestion, though, that's not really actionable. – Quadell (talk) 20:13, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • When you use the "city, state" wording, the state is a parenthetic. It therefore requires a comma after. (See Wikipedia:Basic copyediting#Parenthetical comma.) Several such errors are in the "1897–1901" and "Legacy" sections, and possibly other sections as well.
    I'm slightly confused, can you just demonstrate what you mean? --Montanabw
    In that (above confusion), I don't see the need for a comma after Silverton, Oregon in the Legacy section, as that would be illogical form. I'm doing it anyway, but it looks positively bizarre to me, I hate comma splices and it now looks like one. I think I shall wait on hunting down the others until wehwalt takes a peek at this. --Montanabw
    (ec) Sure. Consider "Davenport was sent to Carson City, Nevada to cover the heavyweight championship". "Nevada" is functioning grammatically as a parenthetic, giving more info about "Carson City", so it needs commas both before and after ("Davenport was sent to Carson City, Nevada, to cover the heavyweight championship"). It looks odd to many writers, I know, but most style guides (including our own) require it. The same goes for "Davenport went to Asbury Park, New Jersey[comma needed] to watch Corbett", "Silverton, Oregon[comma needed] gives tribute to Davenport", etc. If you like, I'll fix them when I come to them as I do a more full review. – Quadell (talk) 20:52, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I do see the logic. Still looks weird, but go ahead and fix them. I get it  ;-) --Montanabw
  • While on the subject of commas, most of the article uses the serial comma, but a few places omit it. (The infobox lists his children as "Homer Jr., Mildred and Gloria", and the "Personal life and other interests" section ends a list with "...Buffalo Bill Cody, Frederick Remington and the Florodora girls".) Should I assume the article should use the serial comma throughout? – Quadell (talk) 21:17, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I believe so, yes, eats, shoots, and leaves! --Montanabw
  • I'm really not a fan of the multiple galleries of large editorial cartoons interspersed through the article, for several reasons. They have to be larger than MoS-recommended image sizes to be recognizable, and many still can't be appreciated without clicking to see full resolution. The four-wide galleries look awkward when the window size is not what you would expect. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images recommends "Rather than including an image gallery on an article, which could add significantly to the download size, consider creating a gallery/category on the Wikimedia Commons instead" (which of course already exists). Now having said all that, I'm not sure I'm right; I understand that Davenport's primary importance lies in these cartoons, and if the majority of commenters here feel the galleries are warranted, I won't insist. I'll just opine that I think the article would be better with a few select cartoons in appropriate sections, and a link to the rest on Commons.
    Hi, Quadell, we already considered this issue during an informal peer review, here, and if you'd like to skim my answers there, it will probably save us all some time - in short, I did an extensive review of art articles that are FA class before creating these. This type of small gallery with selected images is used in other FAs about artists, and given that Davenport has hundreds of cartoons (we have quite a few more at commons), we are barely scratching the surface here. --Montanabw
    Thank you for the link. I certainly agree the format you use is clearly better than the ones used at Adolfo Farsari or, worse, John Michael Wright. I still feel that this article would be improved by removing the galleries and including only as many images as will fit with the flow of the text (covering the works more fully, perhaps, at something like List of works by Homer Davenport or somesuch). This should not, however, be read as an actionable issue that is required before I will support, but only as one opinion to weigh along with those of other reviewers. – Quadell (talk) 20:52, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    We'll let it sit for now, then and thank you for your kind words about our formatting. We originally had it set up the way you suggest, but to make the images clear enough for the article required the "upright" parameter and we wound up with absolutely horrid formatting and insufficient images. This gallery question was very carefully considered, though we are open to further discussion on the details. As for a list, given that he was a cartoonist, we have a problem of abundance... lol! --Montanabw
    Now that I have read the entire article, I concede that it is difficult to imagine the article functioning as well without the diverse array of cartoons as described in the text. Since I don't see any better way to arrange the images, I think I'll have to agree that the galleries are appropriate. – Quadell (talk) 20:13, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I hope to fully review the article later on. – Quadell (talk) 16:27, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for reviewing, Quadell, I have a few comments and replies above. We are glad to discuss any issues with you. Montanabw(talk) 20:13, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you also. I think most of what is being seen is fallout from having two people working on different parts of the article. I looked at the p. and pp. I think we are OK. I agree also on the galleries with Montanabw.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:16, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, two people, one of whom (moi) refuses to get bifocals and has depended heavily on wikignomes for every FAC I've ever had! (#busted!) Montanabw(talk) 19:34, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

All the necessary, actionable items above have been addressed. A full review follows.

This article is quite a strong candidate. The lead is excellent, and the prose is quite vivid. I've identified the following issues. – Quadell (talk) 20:13, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • In my opinion "and then population 300" would be clearer as "and then with a population of 300"
    Tweaked, see if my rephrasing is acceptable --MTBW
  • Linking "Portland" might help clarify which Portland. (Though I admit, it would have to have quite a famous community band to have travelled to the other Portland, not to mention the other other Portland.)
    Swapped later link to link at first use. --MTBW
  • I think a better verb than "did" could be found for "impressed by doodles that Davenport did while waiting".
    Fixed --MTBW
  • I have nothing against semicolons, but the second paragraph in "West Coast years" uses them in three sentences in a row. That's a bit much for "engaging" prose "of a professional standard". (I personally find the seven semicolons in the first five paragraphs of "1896 election and Mark Hanna" distracting as well, but that could just be me.)
    Killed one of the three and did a little rephrasing in the 1896 section, tossed a few, kept the rest. (Wehwalt, revert me if that was not properly done) Good enough? --MTBW
    This (along with all issues raised above) is fine now. – Quadell (talk) 15:10, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is "public prejudice against the Democrats" a fair way to characterize it? It sounds POV to me.
    Wehwalt: This is your source, can you take this one? (FYI, I suspect it is the view of the source material and being historical, is a legitimate factor, but this one is Wehwalt's call) -_MTBW
I think it's a matter of historical fact. The Panic had started in 1893, Cleveland's response (repealing the Sherman Silver Purchase Act) was deemed inadequate, and the Democrats lost both houses of Congress in the 1894 elections. There were even Republican congressmen in Kentucky and North Carolina, and Populist ones further South. There was popular prejudice against the Democrats. People were starving, and they were blamed.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:17, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not comfortable calling opposition to a political party "prejudice" here. To give a parallel example from just this week, I am a tad disheartened that my favorite candidate was not elected to city council, and I may honestly believe that my fellow citizens are prejudiced against third-party candidates. I might say so to my friends. But I wouldn't expect such a statement to be considered NPOV in a featured article. – Quadell (talk) 15:10, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Rephrased by a couple of people.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:45, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consider this sentence: "In 1905 and afterwards, Davenport traveled on the Chatauqua lecture circuit, sketching on stage, and gave engaging talks." This is really minor, but since the talk were a part of the lecture circuit, the sentence would be improved with a rewording. (If I say "He did A, doing B, and did C", one would assume that B is a part of A but C is not.)
    Suggested rephrasing?? (given that someone inevitably will argue the other direction if we reword too dramatically)? --MTBW
    Either "In 1905 and afterwards, Davenport traveled on the Chatauqua lecture circuit, sketching on stage and giving engaging talks" or "In 1905 and afterwards, Davenport traveled on the Chatauqua lecture circuit where he sketched on stage and gave engaging talks" would work fine. – Quadell (talk) 15:10, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I've rephrased. I don't think it is coming through as clearly as I might have hoped that the sketching was part of the talk, so I've taken a shot at it in my own words, see what you think.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:44, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Davenport's son is referred to in the infobox as "Homer Jr.", with no comma. The footnote calls him "Homer, Jr.", with a comma. The article body only ever calls him "Homer Clyde", implying he was not a junior (since his father was Homer Calvin). There should be a clear and consistent way to refer to the boy.
    Fixed to Homer Clyde throughout. --MTBW
  • There seems to be a typo in "...there are also some preservation breeders whose horses have bloodlines remain exclusively descended...".
    rephrased to "...have bloodlines that are entirely descended from ..." does that work better? --MTBW
    Yes, great. – Quadell (talk) 15:10, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there a typo in this? "Davenport's efforts... allowed the Arabian horse in America to be bred with authentic type and pure bloodlines." I don't know what "authentic type" is in this sentence. (This could be due to my ignorance of horse-breeding terms.) I am also confused by the claim that the hores Haleb "was also crossed on Morgan and Standardbred mares". Is that a typo, or a phrasing I'm not familiar with?
    Clarified "authentic Arabian type" and linked "type" to our horse glossary. On the other, which word? Crossed? Wikilinked that to crossbreeding. Does that clarify? --MTBW
    Is a horse "crossed on" another horse? (I know very little about horse breeding, but the preposition sounds odd to me.) – Quadell (talk) 15:10, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    One breed of horse is crossed on another breed of horse to create a crossbred. Ditto dogs (see, e.g. Designer crossbred) I rephrased to "crossed with," which is slightly more precise. --MTBW
  • Regarding footnote [b], why don't the other horses Davenport imported into America, such as Haleb and Wadduda, have their names preceded by asterisks?
    Oops! Will fix that! Also moved endnote to Wadduda, the first time the asterisk is used. --MTBW
  • I think these commas are doing too much confusing work in this sentence: "They had three children, two daughters, Mildred, born 1899, Gloria Ward, born 1904, and a son, Homer Clyde, born 1896." The sense is clear in context, but the grammar is confusing.
    restructured and re-punctuated, better now? --MTBW
  • This is not a requirement, but consider making the parenthetical aside regarding Zadah into a footnote.
    OK, made it an endnote, easy enough (Wehwalt, revert me if you disagree on this, not a big deal to me, either)--MTBW
  • I think this sentence could be improved: "Davenport's cartoons have had a lasting impact on the public image of Mark Hanna, and how he is remembered." (The final clause doesn't clearly fit in anywhere.) My impulse would be this: "Davenport's cartoons have had a lasting impact on the public image of Mark Hanna, both on how he was perceived at the time and on how he is remembered today." What do you think? Too flowery?
    OK, used your phrasing (Wehwalt, revert or discuss if that doesn't work for you, no issue for me either way) --MTBW

I look forward to your replies. – Quadell (talk) 20:13, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Everything is now resolved, except for "prejudice", "sketching on stage", and perhaps "crossed on". – Quadell (talk) 15:10, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have rephrased the "prejudice" angle.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:36, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(End of comments by Quadell)

Support. This article is truly among the best Wikipedia has to offer, and it fulfills all our FA criteria. – Quadell (talk) 21:43, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your patient work with us.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:45, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Brianboulton

SupportLeaning to support: My prose concerns were largely addressed in the peer review. I haven't read the article through at FAC yet, though I will do so. In the meantime, here are a few non-prose concerns:

  • The first and third cartoon galleries have been sized reasonably, the middle one seems unnecessarily large and thus a bit "shouty". Is there a reason why this can't be reduced to the same size as the other two?
    Hmmm. All of them appear exactly the same size in my browser, all are set at 250px, I am not opposed to fixing this, but as it might be a browser issue, is there any markup syntax for galleries akin go the "upright" parameter for individual images that we can use to standardize all three galleries across all browsers and prefs settings? --MTBW "Follow up': When I alter the size in that second section (I went from 250 to 240 as an experiment), the images reload and shrink for a second, then re-reload to exactly the same size as before in my browser. If they are way bigger in yours than the other two galleries, we may have one wonky image or something. We may need someone who knows markup syntax to help here. Any nominations for someone we can call upon here? --MTBW
    You could ask User:Ruhrfisch, who has helped me with image issues in the past and is generally obliging. Brianboulton (talk) 10:11, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Very odd. My laptop at home (running Chrome on Windows 8) shows the images in the middle gallery as much larger than the others. But my desktop at work (running Chrome on Windows 7) shows all images at about the same sizes. – Quadell (talk) 16:31, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    At present, on my display, the first two galleries are showing giant-size, while the third is normally sized. What is the position on other displays, e.g. MTBW and Wehwalt? It may be the fault of my browser – but the comment, above, from Quadell is a bit disturbing. Brianboulton (talk) 23:30, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    On my laptop (Mac running Safari) I get four images that precisely fill the width of a standard screen. What's weird, though, is that when I've played with size, the first set won't resize down, they load smaller, then instantly pop back up large, the second and third sets will resize, but too dramatically so... I'm also using monobook skin, would that be a factor? I've pinged ruhrfisch, hope he can figure it out. Montanabw(talk) 23:57, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ampersands in citations: I think this point was raised by an earlier reviewer, but he used the word "asterisk" and I think the point got lost. There are inconsistencies in the citations between, for example, "Huot and Powers" and "Haskins, W. R., Taube, M. S., & Davenport, H." which ought to be regularised. On balance I prefer "and" to the ampersand.
    We shall search and (&) destroy all ampersands! (If we miss any, feel free to stomp them yourselves! LOL! (However, ""Arabian Horse History & Heritage" IS the title of that article, so do we tweak that one or not??) --MTBW "Fixed' I think and if not, tell me or feel free to fix.
    If it is part of a formal name or title. the ampersand should stay. Brianboulton (talk) 10:11, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Publisher locations: Missing in the cases of Conn 1972, Davenport 1949, Edwards 1973, Vogt 2000. There are inconsistencies between "New York" and "NYC"
    Not all books list publication location, but I shall check worldcat and see if there is help there. --MTBW Follow up:Fixed, if not, ping me and shall tweak.
    Davenport 1910 still has "NYC" rather than "New York". Brianboulton (talk) 10:11, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • State name abbreviations in sources: For the sake of non-American readers it would be better if these were fully spelt out. "Oh", "Wash", "Kan" and "Wis", for example, are not informative to most non-Americans. Some of them don't appear to accord with the official abbreviation.
    Good point, will fix. --MTBW Follow up: I believe I got them all? If not, ping me and shall tweak. Presumed Boston, New York did not require more (neither would London, Paris, Hong Kong, etc...) --MTBW

Brianboulton (talk) 20:04, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Several state abbreviations (Oh, Wash, Cal) are still there, and should be fixed. I'm just doing my final readthrough before the expected upgrade to support. Brianboulton (talk) 10:11, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think I've fixed that now. I've delinked New York, Boston, Baltimore, and done the standard postal abbreviations for the others.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:43, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Brian, other than the gallery sizing problem (which is some sort of bug, I think, and I've pinged Ruhrfisch about it), have we now addressed all of your other concerns? Montanabw(talk) 22:05, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You have indeed addressed my concerns (the image size problem is a separate matter unrelated to the issue of support). I am about two-thirds-way through a final reading of the article, and hope to finish before I go to bed tonight (it's 11.30 pm here as I write). Brianboulton (talk) 23:30, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Great. Looking forward to the rest. Montanabw(talk) 23:57, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I have upgraded to support, with a few final quibbles:
  • The format "Dr. Russell Trall" is unfortunate. Is he really worth a redlink? Whether or not he is, you should drop the title
    OK, delinked and dropped. Unless we learn more about him, you are probably right. --MTBW
  • An AmEng query: You have "help Timothy clerk at the store", and on the next line "required Homer to milk the cows". To my mind, "help Timothy to clerk at the store" would be more natural, certainly more formal, and would make the phrases consistent. What is the AmEng angle on this?
    I'd say in AmEng it's six one way and a half=dozen the other. "to help to clerk" sounds clunky to me. --MTBW
  • "Desert journey" para 4: Over-repetition of "Sultan" – the odd synonym ("ruler", perhaps) could be used.
    FIXED --MTBW
  • "he died there two weeks later on May 2, 1912": Does "there" refer specifically to Mrs Cochran's apartment, or to New York generally?
The apartment. I will clarify. I wonder if she saw it coming?--Wehwalt (talk) 16:22, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And so to bed. Brianboulton (talk) 00:18, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your most kind support. I think we've addressed all the comments now.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:45, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image review from Cirt

There are a lot of images and all check out except for two. And those two are fine as far as licensing, just some minor points. Therefore I won't list all the images in the article here, just those two:

  • File:Hcd02.jpg - this one could be moved to Wikimedia Commons and standardized with commons:Template:Information.
    I flagged it as OK to go, but the tool wouldn't move it. I'm not sure if there is a simple way to do this or if the bot will move it now? --MTBW Follow up: I got it moved, manually, and renamed the file to something more descriptive. Anything else needed there? --MTBW
  • File:HomerDavenportCaricatureHearst.jpg - this one could be standardized with commons:Template:Information.
    Not sure what you mean by "standardized": What is missing or wrong? (Glad to fix, but not sure what you are trying to tell us here). --MTBW Follow up: Never mind, I figured out the template. Maybe next time, instead of "standardize with" just say "add template foo to the image," eh?  ;-) --MTBW

Otherwise, rest of image review checks out okay. Please comment, below, after above two minor issues are addressed, and I'll revisit. Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 16:35, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK Cirt, I think I got it. Check it out, feel free to make any minor tweaks if needed. Montanabw(talk) 19:31, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Looks much better, thanks for being so responsive. :) Image review complete. Everything checks out alright now. — Cirt (talk) 21:07, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review from Cirt

  • Random Source Check - Ref 64. confirms Davenport left his office in a "highly nervous state". Ref 79. confirms that the best war mares were not for sale at any price. Ref 104. confirms he had three children. Ref 121. confirms definition of CMK. These were all randomly picked, and were all completely accurate. (Credit to Gen. Quon for some of my review wording here.) Done. Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 00:58, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I checked the page on a PC running Windows 7 with Internet Explorer 10 (1st gallery was 307 pixels tall, 2nd gallery 327 px tall, and the 3rd was 250 px tall), Google Chrome (all images the same height), Mozilla Firefox (304 px, 324 px, and 250 px tall). I also looked at the page with Apple Safari on an iPad and, while all the images appeared to be the same height, the first two galleries wrapped (3 images across, with the 4th below). I tried pasting the code for the 1st line of the third gallery as the first line for the 1st and 2nd galleries, and also tried making sure the spacing and caption lengths were consistent, but nothing worked. The next thing I would try is Template:Gallery instead of <gallery> Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:05, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That seems to have done it, although please feel free to play with it. Thank you for your expert help..--Wehwalt (talk) 13:34, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Great! I just did a quick check with Firefox, Chrome and IE and all three galleries are now the same height. One thing that is often an issue is the need to bypass your cache, as the old version (especially with images) is often stored and re-loaded by browsers to reduce server calls. The one image has a caption in it - , which is illegible at resolutions used in the article and is redundant to the caption used in the article. If that caption were cropped out, the image itself would display a bit larger. I am really not an expert, but glad my feeble efforts worked. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 13:39, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm delighted to say that the solution works for me, too – all galleries showing at the same reasonable size. So the Ruhrfisch touch still has the power. Brianboulton (talk) 16:49, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yay Ruhrfisch! You rock, man! Montanabw(talk) 21:27, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I tried tweaking the first gallery, making the first image narrower and the third image wider, but it did not work (on my monitor at least). Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:24, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Cirt

Threaded discussion about pull-quotes moved to talk page by Cirt. — Cirt (talk) 02:53, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Belated comments from TRM

Really nice article, some things:

  • "Ohio Senator Mark Hanna. Although he had..." the "he" refers to Davenport, not Hanna, perhaps some reword for precision.
Tweaked.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:02, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does info box caption really need to reiterate his full name?
OK.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:02, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "he first wandered from job to job" reads a little colloquially for me.
Rephrased.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:02, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consider linking "West Coast" since that means little to most of the world.
Piped.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:19, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Isn't "the San Francisco Examiner" really "The San Francisco Examiner"?
  • "New York Journal American" ->"New York Journal-American".
Both papers done.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:19, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • " In this period" - you previously mentioned Christmas, was it just a seasonal thing?
Developmental. Clarified.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:40, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "1870–1871" (and others, including section headings) see WP:YEAR.
I read it, but I don't think it's universally, or even that widely followed. Thoughts?--Wehwalt (talk) 04:26, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Wehwalt's I'm staying out of that one, youse guyz can sort that out. That said, just personally I'm not fond of "1870-71" as an alternative in a heading title, but I won't quibble. JMO. But what did you have in mind? Unclear if your concern is the four-digit dates only, or other things? Montanabw(talk) 05:08, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I should have been clearer, and per User:Eric Corbett's recent episode, while you're not fond of reducing the range in characters, that's what our MOS says. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:49, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Far be it for us to question the great one! (snark) I'll tweak to remove the hyphens and replace them with "to" in the section headers, tweak the photo caption per MOS--MTBW
Love to know where that snuck into the MOS as every TFA blurb on a bio is noncompliant.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:33, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. Maybe we need to edit the MOS (/snark) --MTBW
  • "Following his mother's death, both of Davenport's grandmothers helped raise him,[7] but Homer and his father moved to Silverton when the boy was seven years old..." might just be me but so many family relations in a few words.... any chance of a reword?
Split and somewhat rephrased.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:37, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "first jobs were not successful. His first position" repetitive "first".
Initialized.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:37, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • You link "horse liniment" and "jockey" but not "linseed oil", seems strange to me.
Linked "linseed oil." Montanabw(talk) 05:08, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • " lest he be plunged into despair." this may well be true but it's hardly encyclopaedic writing, it could be a quote…?
It's paraphrasing a letter from Davenport to one of the Geer relatives and is not a quote but I am away from home until Saturday.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:37, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'll defer to Wehwalt on this one unless I'm struck with inspiration, he has the source material--Montanabw Reworded, OK with both TRM and Wehwalt?? Montanabw(talk) 06:27, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ok! The Rambling Man (talk) 18:49, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "for doing a poor job" - yuck, "doing"... reword.
Reworded. Better? Montanabw(talk) 05:08, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In that time..." what time?
Took that out, reworded, different punctuation. Better? Montanabw(talk) 05:08, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • " to wed him" to marry him?
Yes, rephrased to "for the wedding" (Wehwalt: your source - is that correct?) Montanabw(talk) 05:08, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There's a definite implication that she went there to woo and win him, so to speak. I've rephrased.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:40, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "was able to regain his" ->" regained his"
FIXED. Montanabw(talk) 05:08, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The year 1896 was a presidential election year" repetitive use of year, I know you're avoiding starting a sentence with a number but this is weak.
Rephrased. Better? Montanabw(talk) 05:08, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "rougher&emdash:Davenport " obvious fix needed!
Fixed the emdash. Better? Montanabw(talk) 05:08, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • " to rest his feet upon" new para, who is "he" here?
Rephrased, "The resultant caricature of Hanna ..." Better? Montanabw(talk) 05:08, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Spanish-American War " needs an en-dash, not a hyphen.
FIXED Montanabw(talk) 05:08, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's half-way, if it's helpful I'll continue once I get the chance, please let me know. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:24, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's helpful, thanks, look forward to your additional comments! Montanabw(talk) 05:08, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, agree, thanks.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:28, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Part deux:

  • " ran a few times" doesn't seem particularly encyclopaedic to me.
  • Similarly "A few days after..."
I think the word "few" is sufficiently formal.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:15, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I can tolerate it, it's still vague and non-encyclopedic however. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:18, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure source material allows more specificity, or, sometimes the opposite problem is TMI to be useful. But Wehwalt may be able to explain reasons, it's his sources, I did some minor rephrasing, though --MTBW
I'll check against sources when I'm home Sunday. The despair thing too.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:33, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the following February" potentially lost track of what year we're in, three paras into this section.
    Tweaked --MTBW
  • "and his boss" is "boss" usually found in an encyclopaedia?
    Yes, and in the thesaurus too! (grin) Particularly where we are talking cartooning. "Employer" sounds so boring...  ;-) We like a little sparkle--MTBW
  • "the prodding of U.S. Senator" has tone issues for me.
    Very common in US English, "to prod the government into action" is actually the example provided in my thesaurus. --MTBW
    Ok, it's euphemistic prodding which means it may not be clear to all readers, but it's nothing that I'd fall on my sword for... The Rambling Man (talk) 17:46, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "R-NY" no idea what that means, I'd guess at Republican for New York, but to a non-expert it's jargon.
    Good point, will fix --MTBW
  • "Cartoons." [51]" remove space before ref.
    FIXED --MTBW
  • "pounded a drumbeat for war" again, not an encyclopaedic tone.
Used in two prior FA's I've done.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:15, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Reads like a tabloid. Sorry. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:18, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hearst's newspapers did read like tabloids at times, actually. And Wehwalt really likes that phrase. Can't we just keep it, please? --MTBW
I should add that this is what they were doing, not an exaggeration. While the famous "you supply the photographs, I'll supply the war" telegram is a bit dubious, Hearst was using his newspapers to push for public and political pressure for war with Spain. In other words, they were pounding a drumbeat for war with Spain. What is unclear to the reader here? And the reason why they read like tabloids is because they were. This is one of those times you just run with it.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:26, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In 1905, in 1906, in 1905.. seems a little odd.
    Throughout or just in one spot? Clarify? (If throughout, it is standard usage...) --MTBW
    I just meant the out-of-order chronology. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:46, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh! I see. FIXED. --MTBW
  • "In 1905 and afterwards" -> From 1905?
    Rephrased, better? --MTBW
  • "Haleb, the "Pride of the Desert," imported to America by Davenport in 1906." no period required.
    Fixed. --MTBW
  • What is the asterisk in a horse's title? If it's part of their name then it should be included in the link, if it's not, then it should be explained.
    Means it's an import to the USA, not foaled here. See the endnote after *Wadduda. But (Big sigh) we had it by *Abu Zeyd, but someone else missed that endnote and wanted us to put it with the first instance. Shall we insert it all three times it's used with each horse? I'll do whatever you need here. --MTBW
    I think it'd be best to use it each time since it's only thrice. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:46, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm up for that, does anyone know how to do the {{efn|info here}} syntax so the same endnote appears each time without having three identical endnotes at the bottom? Montanabw(talk) 22:28, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I've addressed that, I think, using the "name=" parameter within the {{efn}} template. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:31, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, you did! Thank you! Montanabw(talk) 01:14, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Find it a little odd that "hay" is linked, as is "mare", but not "stallion". Worth a run through trying to check that the horse jargon is linked first time and no assumptions are made.
    Will fix, thought I had. Understood. --MTBW Fixed let me know if more horse jargon jumps out at you. --MTBW
  • "newly–imported" hyphen, not en-dash.
    Fixed. --MTBW
  • "The Davenport farm in Morris Plains, NJ, circa 1901–1905" ->"The Davenport farm in Morris Plains, New Jersey, circa 1901–05"
    Done --MTBW
  • "pull his life together " not encyclopedic.
The English language is very rich, and phrases like that are appropriate English. Better than spending twice the number of words expressing the thought half as well.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:18, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I get that, but how does this translate into all versions of English? It's not plain English. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:21, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hm. To me it is. In colloquial terms, we might now say "got his shit together," but that's even less encyclopedic! (LOL!) Wehwalt has the source material, and I am not sure we can say he was "cured of depression" or anything like that without venturing into OR or SYNTH land; but clearly, Davenport became severely depressed during the divorce, went to California, stopped making any money for a while, then managed to "pull it together" enough to start cartooning again. I truly cannot think of a better way to phrase it, but I'm open to ideas. --MTBW
Outside comment. I do understand why TRM might see the idiom as less formal than the surrounding text. But I can't think of a good substitute. ("Recover" doesn't quite suffice.) It does seem like a very minor issue to me. – Quadell (talk) 12:04, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'll look at the source, though I don't expect much of a revelation (when I get home and over jet lag) but again, this is one of those circumstances where you just go with the English language. I am inclined to let it stand.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:39, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm all good with going with the English language but some phrasing just seems to be non-encyclopedic to me. I just can't imagine the Encyclopedia Britannica using the term "pull his life together", instead I would have expected a rephrase into more formal language. But as above, it's not something I'm going to insist upon (nor could I), it's just something that sticks out as odd to me. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:46, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
US English is odd, I suppose. If you have any ideas for "more formal" English that doesn't go into SYNTH territory and conveys the proper nuance, feel free to propose. Montanabw(talk) 22:28, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Rambling Man (talk) 20:05, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've been a 5-star pedant here, and while I'm still mildly bothered by the odd prose issue (as noted above), I also accept that less is more, many times I've read dull prose and thought "ok, it's encyclopaedic, but yawn", and in this case I'm reading it as "ok, it's great prose, but not encyclopaedic". I'd prefer the latter to the former, so I haven't really a leg to stand on. Support a nice article, well written, nicely illustrated, and actually nice to work with nominators who are accommodating to pedantic review comments. Good work. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:45, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I look for people to be picky. That's what reviewers are for, and you've done your job well. Thank you.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:23, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, thank you TRM. Your vote of confidence is much appreciated. Montanabw(talk) 02:14, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Notes

  • I felt the lead/infobox could stand a little tweaking and edited accordingly.
  • Oddly, the dablink checker revealed one instance, Asil, but in the article it didn't appear the page was linked after all (just a pipe)...

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:21, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK. Anything we need to do? Thanks for looking at it.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:01, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well probably not, I was more curious as to whether you had any thoughts on this phantom dablink -- have you seen it before (or have I missed something obvious)? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:18, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It looks "phantom" to me and I don't want to change the language right there as I'm not expert on Arabian horses. Let me see if I can ping Montanabw.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:20, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Not suggesting you should change anything, was just interested in a reality check as I've never seen this tool make an error. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:29, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nor I, actually.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:04, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, sorry to be late to the party here. Asil was originally linked to the dab page which contains the simple definition (means "pure"), and when the dab issue came up somewhere in our FAC prep, I changed that and directed it to an article that explains what the word means in better context, Al Khamsa. Davenport actually used the word "chubby" in his book, but I have never seen that word used by anyone other than Davenport. May be that the dablinkchecker has a long memory. Montanabw(talk) 02:14, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps that's it... Anyway, not something to hold up promotion -- now you've got this one out of the way, hope to see you chaps tackling Thomas Nast some time... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:26, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 19 November 2013 (UTC) [7].[reply]

Melbourne Castle

Nominator(s): Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:03, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This former royal castle was once used to imprison the Duke of Bourbon, and came close to getting Mary, Queen of Scots too, but ended its days being quarried for stone. Now, the waters of the Trent overflow its towers, as was prophesied. Thanks to Hchc2009, Dank, Nev1 and Anotherclown for improving this article to Milhist A-class before it came here Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:03, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

Image check - all OK (CC, own work, PD-old-100). Sources and authors provided.

  • Support (having stumbled here from my FAC). I agree with quality of prose in assessment by Dank (talk · contribs), above. I would add in particular I like the style used for the referencing and citation sections. In addition, the overall structure is organized well, and the writing quality is succinct and eminently readable for our viewers. — Cirt (talk) 03:49, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Having looked at the article again, and being involved with the A-class process, I'm happy to support the article. As Hchc2009 says, it is comprehensive and on top of that, it is well structured and well written. Nev1 (talk) 18:04, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 20 November 2013 (UTC) [8].[reply]

Fakih Usman

Nominator(s):  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:48, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because it is ready. Fakih is, to put it lightly, pretty much forgotten in most histories of Indonesia that I've read. He gets more mention as the chairman of Muhammadiyah - a position he held for less than a week before his death. Though the article is somewhat short, I believe it is comprehensive. It is easily the best English-language biography of this subject available. This received a PR from Wehwalt, Sarastro1, and User:SchroCat. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:48, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support: I commented at length at the PR, where my minor concerns were addressed. I think this meets the criteria comfortably, and matches Crisco's usual high standards. The prose is good, and I think the context is set very nicely. I cannot comment on how comprehensive or otherwise it is, nor on the sourcing, but there is nothing obviously missing. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:27, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

Support and comments from Jim Usual high standards, just a couple of comments Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:42, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Masyumi and National Revolution—I'm not clear why the final words are capitalised
  • The British initially focused on Java and Sumatra, hoping to avoid armed confrontations with the Republican forces—Earlier in this para, you have said the republicans were in Jakarta, which is in Java. As written, this sentence is unclear.
Comments by Quadell
  • Image check: All images are legitimately in the public domain, and all required information is present. Usage and captions are appropriate.
  • Links: Jakarta is linked at the 2nd and 3rd mention, but should be linked only at the first. Ulama is linked twice, but that could be appropriate: it's linked in non-adjacent sections, and it's an unfamiliar term for many readers that is important in the article. Sukarno is linked twice, and that's less useful. I detect no other linking issues.
  • I have made some minor wording changes. I think they improve the prose, but if you disagree, feel free to revert.
  • I think the sentence beginning "During a leadership course..." would be clearer if it were broken up, but honestly I'm not sure of the best way to do this.
  • Note [a] seems to have a typo when it ends a sentence with "...and thus sought to purify the religion from."
  • Also in note [a], it's pretty clear that "pious communities" rejected the Muhammadiyah for promoting individual interpretation of the Qur'an, and not for opposing syncretism (which they would presumably agree with). But it's not clear whether "officials" and "Islamic teachers in the countrysides" opposed Muhammadiyah for being too liberal (for promoting individual interpretation) or too conservative (for denouncing syncretism), or some of both. Do you see what I mean? The note seems to say that the Muhammadiyah were modernist in one way, and then it says they were still conservative in a different way... and then it says "as such" they were opposed by three different groups. I just can't tell if all three groups thought them too modernist, or if some thought them too strict.
  • Actually, some pious communities may have also taken issue with the attempt to eliminate the syncretism. The Sultan of Yogyakarta, for instance, is considered an Islamic leader by many Javanese despite the sultanate's Hindu influences. You can see how Ricklefs puts it here, especially "pious Javanese had believed for centuries to be the true Islam" (I've also added links to kejawen and kebatinan which give more details). It is a fairly complex issue which should (don't think it is) be more detailed at the Muhammadiyah article. Hopefully the removal of the word "modernist" here will avoid more confusion, and I've reworded slightly. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:27, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note [b] begins with a capital and ends with a period as if it were a sentence, but it's worded as a dependent clause. I would simply change "having" to "had".
  • Question: Is it correct to say "during Ramadhan of 1961"? I don't know a lot about standards for Islamic calendar representation on Wikipedia, but it seems like an odd wording to me. If you mean the month, Ramadan is a part of the Islamic calendar, but 1961 is a Western year representation. (Wouldn't it be either Ramadan of 1380 AH, or February/March of 1961?) If you mean the religious observational period, wouldn't it be "Ramadham in 1961"? I honestly don't know what the standard is here.
  • That is a very good question. The source (based on my memory, Google won't let me see the page now) uses the Western year and Ramadan, though I think it does mention the Hijri year. I have tried rephrasing. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:27, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Overall, I am leaning toward supporting. – Quadell (talk) 17:43, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support. All my concerns have been addressed, and this article fulfills all our FA criteria. – Quadell (talk) 23:04, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 17 November 2013 (UTC) [9].[reply]

AdS/CFT correspondence

Nominator(s): Polytope24 (talk) 23:25, 5 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... I believe it meets the FA criteria. I've been working on this article for months now, and it was recently promoted to good article status. Since then, I've significantly expanded the article to make it more comprehensive. Polytope24 (talk) 23:25, 5 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Chris857
There are two images here, File:Escher Circle Limit III.jpg and File:AdS3.png. Circle Limit is non-free, and AdS3 is a derivative work of it. Is there any necessity to use Circle Limit when File:Uniform tiling 433-t0.png is the same pattern, but freely licensed? File:AdS3.png should be modified to use the free pattern. Chris857 (talk) 18:31, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Are there any other thoughts about this? I explained my rationale for using the Escher image over at File:Escher Circle Limit III.jpg. I can change the images if the community deems it necessary, but the Escher image is prettier, and I think I'm justified in using it… Polytope24 (talk) 21:23, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Is the suggested replacement sufficient for the same encyclopedic purpose? I.e. does it convey the same information needed to understand the article or section? If yes, the non-free image and its derivative should be replaced. Being more famous or prettier is no valid rationale to prefer the non-free version. (Off-topic for this FA: Usage in Möbius transformation is also questionable. Other usages in the remaining articles appear to have stronger rationales, as the woodcut is either the focus of those articles or is discussed in more detail.) GermanJoe (talk) 09:12, 8 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I changed the images. Polytope24 (talk) 16:53, 8 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I am concerned about this article. The topic of the article is very complex physics, and the subject is accessible to a very small number of people. Because of this, there are very few Wikipedia editors capable of usefully editing the content (as opposed to the formatting) of this article, and of critiquing the article as a whole. Indeed, almost all recent edits (from mid-August) have been by Polytope24, and it seems to me that the GA review was carried out with input only from one other editor, SPat. I would feel more comfortable about granting this article "featured" status if we were able to find a few more appropriately-qualified editors to review it. None of this is meant to disparage the article as it currently stands, or Polytope24's hard work; I'd simply like to confirm that adequate reviews have been performed. RomanSpa (talk) 22:36, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. It's true that the subject of this article is very technical, but I've tried to write the article in such a way that even non-experts can understand and verify its content. If you look at the references, you'll notice that much of the article is based on a popular article by Juan Maldacena in Scientific American. I would love to have more non-experts weigh in on this article and tell me if they find it accessible.
That said, I understand that it's difficult for a non-expert to support or oppose this nomination. If you like, I can look for people to review the article. I could probably find someone over at Wikipedia:WikiProject Physics. Polytope24 (talk) 23:19, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think that would be an excellent course of action. Thank you. RomanSpa (talk) 12:28, 10 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I came here from a request at WT:Physics as a physicist, but don't claim to know anything about FA criteria or judging process. I'll stick to content. I've worked through the article up to but not including the Applications to quantum field theory section.

Overall I'd say that given the difficulty of the material, the article is well written and neutral. AdS/CFT is somewhat controversial in some parts of the physics community and the article is correct to have a criticism section (Disclaimer: I have a connection to P.W. Anderson, who is one of those critics). I don't see any undue biases in the presentation of subtopics. One subtopic I don't see mentioned is the correspondence with a particular tpye of viscous fluid dynamics, e.g., [10] and [11]. But perhaps this is discussed in the Sachdev article; I don't have access to that at the moment.

Here are some particular things that could be improved in the article. I'm being intentionally picky here. Compared to most physics article, this one is well referenced.

  1. conformal field theory is a scale invariant quantum field theory -- Not all scale invariant QFTs are automatically conformally invariant.
  2. The surface of this cylinder is called the conformal boundary of three-dimensional anti-de Sitter space. -- This needs a reference; the SciAm article referenced in the same para does not mention conformal boundary.
  3. It may also be good to explain what is meant by a conformal boundary, since it is such a core concept in the correspondence. A naive reader might say 'You just told me that AdS has a metric, a definite measure of distance. How is the boundary of that space now magically scale invariant?'
  4. Here the gravitational theory has four noncompact dimensions, so this version of the correspondence provides a somewhat more realistic description of gravity. -- Probably needs a ref--who says this theory is a more realistic description of gravity? It is a reasonable statement, but we cannot draw our own conclusions here.

Hope this is helpful and apologies for anything irrelevant to FAC. --Mark viking (talk) 22:14, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you - this looks very good. I hope that we can find someone to perform a similar review on the second half of the article. RomanSpa (talk) 23:01, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Mark viking for this helpful review. I've made the following changes in response to your comments:
1. I've changed every instance of the term "conformal boundary" to "boundary" as in the SciAm article by Maldacena. The precise definition of conformal boundary is rather technical, and it seems unnecessary to include it in this article, which is supposed to provide a nontechnical overview. Besides, the article already makes it clear that the boundary we're talking about is infinitely far from any point in the interior.
2. I made some changes to the section on quantum field theory to emphasize that a conformal field theory is a special type of highly symmetric theory, not just a scale invariant one.
3. I added a more specific citation for the claim that the AdS4/CFT3 correspondence provides a more realistic description of gravity.
4. I had originally decided not to discuss applications to fluid dynamics in this article because it's not clear to me that there are any really serious applications to fluid dynamics. Since you noticed this omission, I have added a sentence to the end of the history section noting that this is a topic of current research.
Please let me know if I've failed to address any of your concerns. Thanks again. Polytope24 (talk) 01:20, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for addressing these points. I agree with your decision to drop the 'conformal' from conformal boundary for the sake accessibility. All your other changes look good. I agree that the fluid dynamics connection warrants no more than a sentence. You've addressed all my points. --Mark viking (talk) 05:04, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment on the second half of the article (see the comments on the first half above). I also found this half to be well written and well referenced. As above, here are some picky criticisms:

  1. fluid is viewed as a field theoretic analog of a black hole. -- as written, I cannot tell what this means. What is the field theoretic analog of a black hole? I can make some guess, but best to provide a little more descritpion here.
  2. In 1999, after taking a job at Columbia University, nuclear physicist Đàm Thanh Sơn paid a visit to Andrei Starinets, a friend from Sơn's undergraduate days who happened to be doing a Ph.D. in string theory at New York University. -- This level of detail on undergraduate friendships is a nice story, but is a trivial detail in a broad summary of the whole topic. Perhaps best to reduce to excise it.
  3. Such a duality is interesting from the point of view of cosmology since many cosmologists believe that the very early universe was close to being de Sitter space. -- citation needed for many cosmologists believing this.
  4. In the Black hole information paradox section you alluded to the Bekenstein bound for black hole information and in the later Black holes and holography section, you mentioned the holographic principle Both these concepts are closely related, as mentioned in both articles. There should be some mention of the connection of these in this article. Although Black hole information paradox and Black holes and holography are split into two sections, they are fairly closely related.

I'm not qualified to judge whether this meets FAC, but I must say, well done! --Mark viking (talk) 04:58, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for these comments. Here's a summary of what I did:
1. I clarified the sentence on "field theoretic analog of a black hole".
2. For now, I'm leaving the story about Son and Starinets as it is. During the GA review of this article, I was encouraged to add lots of details and trivia to the history section since this is the section that lay readers will focus on. The thinking was that such readers will be most interested in historical details, anecdotes, and personal relationships of the scientists involved in AdS/CFT. I would like to hear what other reviewers think about this decision. If others agree that there's too much trivial information, then I'll go ahead and change it.
3. I added a citation on the early universe being close to de Sitter space.
4. It seems there was some confusion about my reference to Jacob Bekenstein in the section "Black hole information paradox". It was not my intention to say anything about the Bekenstein bound. In fact, the reference in that section was unnecessary and works much better in the history section, so I moved it. I hope this helps to streamline the article a bit.
Thanks again, and please let me know if there are any other issues. Polytope24 (talk) 06:22, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for addressing my points. I wasn't aware of the GA discussion about the history section. If adding details and trivia is what is wanted there, that's OK by me; I have a tendency to just concentrate on the physics. I agree that the Bekenstein info makes more sense in the history section. You have addressed all my points.
I cropped the Susskind photo to emphasize the man, rather than his table, and pointed the article to the cropped version. Feel free to revert if you don't think it is an improvement. --Mark viking (talk) 10:26, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, that looks great. Thank you. Polytope24 (talk) 15:22, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Based on the content of the article and having all my concerns addressed, I support this article for FA status. --Mark viking (talk) 18:30, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I like how this article manages to find a nice balance between being technical and accessible. While some may ding you on accessibility, on my read-through, even with no understanding of the math behind string theory and its extensions, I was still able to understand what it meant, but not at the expense of technical details. Nonetheless, there are a few things that I think could use some work:

  • I think it would be nice to have some more consistency in using "we" versus "one" when describing things.
  • How does this theory solve the black hole information paradox? I was not quite clear on this while reading the article?
  • "Some condensed matter theorists hope that the AdS/CFT correspondence will make it possible to describe these systems in the language of string theory and learn more about their behavior.[48]" Any examples of who?
  • "During the transition, the atoms behave in an unusual way," in what way is their behavior unusual?
  • In the criticism section, refs need to go at the end of the quote, as well as where they are now.
  • I think the history section goes a little too in-depth about Hawking's black hole work.

Other than these, the article looks good to me, and I'd support after these issues are resolved. StringTheory11 (t • c) 17:22, 13 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. I'll make changes as soon as possible, hopefully later today. Polytope24 (talk) 18:25, 13 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I just finished making some changes. Rather than remove anything in response to your last comment, I actually added some language to explain why Hawking's work is very important in the history of AdS/CFT. In the previous version, I think maybe it wasn't clear why explained his work in depth.
Thanks for helping out with the review, and let me know if you have any further comments. Polytope24 (talk) 05:02, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support, content concerns addressed. StringTheory11 (t • c) 03:16, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment At this point I've received some excellent feedback by several other editors, but I'm concerned that the FAC coordinators may close the nomination if there are no other reviews. I would appreciate any suggestions from editors who have more experience with the review process. (RomanSpa may have something to say about this.)

I would also like to make a couple of observations related to WP:FA Criteria:

  • In his review, Mark viking stated that the article was "well written", "neutral", and "well referenced".
  • The only comment about comprehensiveness was that the article should mention applications to fluid dynamics, and this point has now been addressed.
  • Chris857 and GermanJoe had some concerns about pictures which have now been addressed.
  • The article was recently reviewed by SPat and promoted to GA status. This means that it is well written, well referenced, neutral, stable, and illustrated by appropriate images.

Since there don't seem to be any concerns about adherence to WP:MOS, I'm inlined to say that this article meets all the criteria. I would support it myself, but I'm not sure if that's acceptable considering that I nominated the article. I would appreciate any advice people have. Polytope24 (talk) 19:44, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

  • I am coming here as a mathematician familiar with AdS/CFT (although not an expert on the physics) because of a request from the principal editor at WT:WPM. In my corner of the world, the AdS/CFT correspondence is typically associated with the names of Charles Fefferman (of Princeton University) and Robin Graham (of the University of Washington) owing to a paper on the subject that they published in a special issue of the journal Asterisque some time in the 1980s (a more detailed and quite recent paper by these authors is available on the arxiv [12]). A reference to this work is conspicuously missing from the article. Sławomir Biały (talk) 00:11, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the suggestion. The work that you mention is the subject of one of the links in the "See also" section. I also went ahead and added a footnote and reference. Polytope24 (talk) 01:05, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

  • I was solicited by the principal editor. I am a theoretical physicist and I am aware of Maldacena's conjecture mostly from works in AdS/QCD. As far as I can tell, there has been some effort by Cumrun Vafa to move this to the status of a theorem. How far is this situation now? Is there something certain that could be stated about? Besides, there also should be numerical attempts in the direction to confirm the conjecture. What is the literature about, if any? This conjecture is something like an important pillar of string theory, much like supersymmetry. If this is the situation (a failure in Maldacena's conjecture is a failure of string theory) then it should be properly emphasized. Finally, I would support this FA nomination as this is becoming a key aspect in a large part of physics and this is properly pointed out in the article. It is possible that all this matter will end up like the bootstrap model in the sixties, I do not know, but due to the relevant role it has now, an article like this is overdue. Better if so well written and presented.--Pra1998 (talk) 17:10, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your comments. I added a couple of lines explaining that, while there is considerable evidence for AdS/CFT coming from calculations in field theory and string theory, it has not been proved in any generality. I also did a Google search on numerical checks of AdS/CFT, but I wasn't able to find anything significant. If you have a specific article in mind, I'd be glad to mention it.
If you'd like to support the nomination, please remember to post the word "Support" on this page, in bold. Thanks again for your help. Polytope24 (talk) 17:51, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support, satisfactory article, to be promoted.--Pra1998 (talk) 22:19, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: coming here at request from Polytope24. I think this article is darn close to the FA criteria, but not quite yet. (The GA status is well deserved, and the recent editors are to be applauded.) I agree with other commenters who note that the article is now comprehensive, well researched, and neutral. I also think the overall structure/style is fine. Things that I think should be fixed up:

  • Criteria 1a: there are scattered first-person pronouns ("we" and "our") in the form of the polite construction which includes the reader. WP:MOS allows these despite their non-encyclopedic style, but indicates that alternative sentence structures are preferred if possible. I think that most (not all) of the occurrences here can be fixed up quite easily without using "we" or "our".
  • Criteria 4: I'm sorry to say that the absolutely lovely level of detail, which appears to have been encouraged in previous edits, leaves the article too long. Perhaps I'm wrong. However, I do believe that the well-written "History and Development" section gets off topic, and is more like a history of holography in general than a history of AdS/CFT specifically.

Spatrick99 (talk) 17:13, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. I have now removed every instance of the word "we" except in quotations. I also removed some sentences from the subsection on "Black holes and holography" which was a bit too long. Other than that, I'm not sure how I can shorten the article. AdS/CFT is an enormous topic (according to Google, Maldacena's original paper now has 11,557 citations!), so naturally any survey will be rather long. I welcome comments from other users on how I might improve the length. Polytope24 (talk) 18:26, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Looks better to me now. My feeling is that that article is still long, but, yes, this is a huge (and important) subject. Moreover, looking at Wikipedia:Featured_articles/By_length, I see that there are about 1600 FAs which are longer than this article. I'm more comfortable with the length now. Support Spatrick99 (talk) 14:24, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: have the sources been spot-checked yet? doesn't look like the GA review checked them. -- Aunva6talk - contribs 22:54, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The GA reviewer left some comments about references on this page, which I have tried to address in my revisions. Polytope24 (talk) 23:03, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Notes -- Although we have a pretty clear consensus to promote this article, there are still some things that need addressing:

  • Sourcing -- I'd like to see a more comprehensive spotcheck of sources for accuracy and avoidance of close paraphrasing; this is normal procedure for a nominator new to FAC. I'll post a request for this at WT:FAC.
  • Citations -- As a general rule, all paragraphs should end with a citation; this is not the case with the last two paras of Quantum gravity and strings. Pls check for other cases as well.
  • Overlinking -- While linking spacetime makes perfect sense to me, linking space and time seems a bit much; suggest you re-check the article for similar instances of possible overlinking.
  • Duplicate links -- Beyond whether something should be linked at all, there are numerous instances where links are repeated; you can check for the repeated links with this script. Note that in a detailed article you might be justified in re-linking items that appear several sections apart, but pls review in any case.

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:17, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, everything except the spotcheck should be taken care of now. Polytope24 (talk) 04:13, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Almost... Appears that everything above has been actioned now except that the last sentence of Three-dimensional gravity is not cited. Also I'm a bit unsure of the wording in a sentence in that subsection: "Another conjecture due to Edward Witten states..." -- "due to" reads oddly to me, do we mean "Another conjecture made by [or attributed to or credited to] Edward Witten, or do we mean "Another conjecture that has arisen owing to the work of Edward Witten, or something else again? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:18, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. Polytope24 (talk) 22:56, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Quadell

I'll admit up front that I am only able to understand this article in a superficial way, and I am thoroughly unable to follow most of the sources. Despite this, my experience with featured articles on Wikipedia allows me to make a few intelligent comments, at least.

First off, per WP:LEAD, a lead should summarize all sections of the article without containing information not present in other sections. For this reason, most leads do not need citations at all, unless a particular statements is controversial or contains a direct quote. This lead has ten citations; although some are for statements that could be seen as contentious (e.g. "represents a major advance in our understanding"), others are utterly uncontroversial (e.g. "first proposed by Juan Maldacena in late 1997"), and are restated and sourced in the body. I (along with many other reviewers) find most citations in the lead to be an unnecessary distraction.

What is particularly troubling in this instance is that, often, the citations for statements in the lead are not used to support those same statements in the body. For instance, reference 2 sources the lead's statement that AdS/CFT correspondence "represents a major advance in our understanding of string theory and quantum gravity", but the only other place the reference is used says that the work "provided a concrete realization of the holographic principle with important implications for quantum gravity and black hole physics", which isn't really the same thing. If the citation were omitted from the lead, would the lead's claim be supported by citations in the body? I can't tell. Similarly, citation 5 supports the possibly contentious "provides a powerful toolkit" statement in the lead, but is not used in the body. In fact, the source (Klebanov and Maldacena) is only ever used in the body in the introduction to anti-de Sitter space, which is not clearly related to the statement in the lead.

Though I don't feel comfortable supporting or opposing an article I don't fully understand, I do consider the problem with the lead's sourcing to be an impediment to FA status.

In a more minor concern, when a citation says "See the subsection below", this isn't really accurate, since the noted subsection is above the notes section.

Finally, I made a valiant but failed attempt to perform spotchecks. With great effort, I was able to determine that footnote 40 was supported by the source without plagiarism, and I'm 90% sure that the sources for footnotes 25b and 25c support their statements. I can also confirm that these, and several others, do not copy or closely parallel the wording in the sources. But I'm just not competent to analyze whether most of the statements are fully supported by the sources given (although it seems at least plausible in every check I made). – Quadell (talk) 19:53, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. In the article by de Haro et al., the relevant sentence appears on the second page, where it says
its results are… the suggested implication, acknowledged by Hawking, that black holes do not violate quantum theory… the holographic description of gravity realized in string theory, which has led to key conceptual insights in understanding gravity and geometry…
In the lead, this is being used to justify the statement that the AdS/CFT correspondence represents a major advance in our understanding of quantum gravity. This is definitely related to the subsequent claim that AdS/CFT "provides a concrete realization of the holographic principle with important implications for quantum gravity and black hole physics". The point is that the holographic principle is a very important theoretical idea, and if you have a theory that incorporates this idea, then you can learn a lot about the quantum aspects of gravity, and in particular, how gravitational phenomena like black holes are consistent with quantum mechanics.
The article by Klebanov and Maldacena is being used in the lead to provide a quick reference for the statement that AdS/CFT "provides a powerful toolkit for studying strongly coupled quantum field theories". I would say that this also follows from the material in the body, but I think its good to err on the side of caution when making statements like this.
You're right that this Klebanov-Maldacena article serves a different function in the body of the article. Here the relevant sentence is the following:
The gravitational theory involves a dynamic spacetime fluctuating around a special curved background
The authors are implicitly referring to anti-de Sitter space in this sentence, so this citation is being used to justify the statement that "the geometry of spacetime is described in terms of a certain vacuum solution of Einstein's equation called anti-de Sitter space." Please let me know if there's any problem with this reference.
Please let me know if I should remove any citations from the lead. Thanks. Polytope24 (talk) 20:52, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your responses. In my interpretation of MOS:LEAD, citations are only needed in the lead if they support particularly contentious statements or direct quotes. (Some articles do make it to FA with more lead citations than necessary, but I think it's optimal to have as few as possible.) Instead, every statement in the lead should be more fully given and expounded upon in the body, and the statement should be supported there with the best source possible. (That's true whether you cite a given statement in the lead or not.) – Quadell (talk) 13:32, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I removed the unnecessary citations in the lead. Polytope24 (talk) 06:39, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Great! The only other problems I see are with reference formatting. (You need spaces between the "p." and the page number, and between "sec." and the section number. Page ranges should have en-dashes, rather than "--" or "-". There may be other reference formatting concerns as well.) – Quadell (talk) 12:12, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. Polytope24 (talk) 20:39, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have made a few other formatting changes to the citations, plus two edits (1, 2) that I'm only 90% sure are correct. (Could someone double-check me on that last point?)
My only remaining concern about the references is that if a book has an ISBN, it needs to be included in the "References" section. (Zweibach's A First Course in String Theory, for instance, has an ISBN of 978-0521880329.) Once you add those, all reference formatting concerns should be resolved. – Quadell (talk) 21:46, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Polytope24 (talk) 01:08, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This article conforms to our MoS, and the references are formatted correctly. I can confirm that it fulfills #2, #3, and probabaly #4 of our Wikipedia:Featured article criteria. Since I'm not qualified to confirm criterion #1, I really can't fully support or oppose in good conscience... but I can at least say that I see no reason this shouldn't be featured. – Quadell (talk) 13:10, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your help, Quadell! Polytope24 (talk) 13:43, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source spot-check

  • Ref 5, fails verification. Neither Newton nor Maxwell are mentioned in the article.
  • Ref 7, close paraphrasing.
  • Article text: "the most well studied (sic) approach to quantum gravity is string theory"
  • Source text: "string theory, the most studied approach to quantum gravity"
  • Ref 8, fails verification. The citation is preceded by several sentences explaining the four-dimensional nature of spacetime and the peculiarities of string theory and M-theory. P. 8 of Zwiebach doesn't even mention the four dimensions of spacetime. It does support your statements about string theory being ten-dimensional and M-theory being eleven-dimensional. I'm not saying that what you've written about spacetime is incorrect, I'm just saying it isn't cited here. Also, Zwiebach appears to be an undergraduate textbook. Is it considered authoritative, and are these definitions uncontroversial enough that we wouldn't prefer a peer-reviewed source?
  • Ref 16, seems OK. It's difficult to tell without fully understanding the material. The source provided does introduce and define anti-de Sitter space, and seems to include vacuum solution material (albeit without explicitly calling it a vacuum solution).
  • Ref 46, OK.
I was a bit uncomfortable with the material so I may in fact be wrong about ref 16. Polytope24, I have no doubt that you understand the material and that what you've written before ref 8 is correct. However, everything has to be verifiable and even if this is very basic physics, we need a citation supporting spacetime being four-dimensional. Judging by the scarcity of citations in some places, I'm guessing there may be other areas where you've made introductory statements that are not covered by the citation at the end of the paragraph. --Laser brain (talk) 17:59, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your comments.
  • Citation #5 is meant to provide a reference for the fact that general relativity is part of classical physics. The fact that classical physics was studied by Newton and Maxwell is very basic and easy to verify. I have moved the citation to emphasize that it pertains to the first statement.
  • I tweaked the language near citation #7.
  • I added a citation on the fact that spacetime is four-dimensional. It's true that Zwiebach is an undergraduate textbook, but I don't think that "undergraduate text" and "authoritative" are mutually exclusive. I can cite a more advanced text if people want, but I think that would only make the article harder to verify. Polytope24 (talk) 18:49, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for these changes. For the record, I don't know anything about physics and I found the writing to be appropriately accessible. A novice would likely have to click off into a lot of linked articles for prerequisite information, but that's OK. --Laser brain (talk) 18:59, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comment -- It appears to me that the article has had a good mix of reviewers, ranging from those familiar with physics but not with FAC, to the exact opposite -- thanks to all of you. Most importantly the nominator has responded positively and promptly to reviewers' comments -- I hope you've found this a worthwhile experience and will return with other articles, and also take part in reviewing others' FACs, whether maths/science-based or not. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:37, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:02, 11 November 2013 (UTC) [13].[reply]

Michael Tippett

Nominator(s): Brianboulton (talk) 18:56, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Michael Tippett was, in his lifetime, often ranked alongside Benjamin Britten as one of Britain's leading 20th century composers. Britten has retained his high standing, while Tippett's has fallen somewhat precipitously. Less naturally gifted than Britten, Tippett took a long time getting established; after finally achieving recognition he changed his style more than once, with limited success. While a few of his works remain popular—the oratorio A Child of our Time outstandingly so—much of his music has disappeared from the repertory. His loyal admirers believe his time will come again; whether that be so, he led a long and interesting life as a composer, conductor and musical theorist, and remains an important if enigmatic figure in English music. Thanks are due to User:Andrew Lowe Watson for the initial spadework from which this article is derived. Brianboulton (talk) 18:56, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support

I had my say at peer review, and such minor quibbles as I had were properly dealt with there. Just two minor points now:

  • Lead
    • Postnominal gongs – no strong objection to their being in small type, but I don't think it's usual
  • General characterics – plainly a typo in the header, but not sure if you mean characteristics or character; I think I'd go for the latter, but over to you to decide.

That's my lot. Clearly an article that meets the FAC criteria. Very pleased indeed to add my support for its promotion. – Tim riley (talk) 19:34, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your peer review help and for your support here. Brianboulton (talk) 10:22, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support I also had my say at the peer review. Well done as always.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:02, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Image check All images acceptably licensed. One fair use image used for the identification of the subject with an acceptable fair use rationale.
Thanks for support and image check (I assume that the image check is yours?) Brianboulton (talk) 14:49, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – with a few comments.
  • "Although neither she nor Henry was musical.." -- I want to say, "Although neither she nor Henry were musical..."
  • We link Cornwall, Suffolk and Kent, but not Dorset?
  • According to Bowen, most "were simply unprepared for a work that departed so far from the methods of Puccini and Verdi".[68][50] -- Ref order.

A wonderful read. -- CassiantoTalk 20:35, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your sharp eyes (someone has fixed the ref order), for your review help and support here. Brianboulton (talk) 14:49, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support: This is an excellent piece of work, which I found very readable and generally easy to follow. The music section lost me in one or two places, but that is more a reflection on me than on the writing. There was nothing obviously wrong there, but in truth I wouldn’t know even if there was. I’ve a few general points/questions about the life section, but none of them are major. Feel free to tell me where to go, and they do not affect my support. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:38, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • ”He was widely considered to rank with his contemporary Benjamin Britten”: can we say anything stronger than “widely considered”? I also wonder does this point come across clearly in the main body.
  • Is there a link we could use for “lyricism”? If not, best left I think.
  • ”Tippett had firmly decided on a career as a composer, a prospect that alarmed them and was discouraged by his headmaster and by Sargent”: Was there any particular reason for everyone’s negative attitude, or just a general “oh no, a life in the arts!” problem?
  • I think his parents were hoping for a more conventional career – Cambridge and the law, perhaps. Sargent was not a natural encourager, and the headmaster was probably a fairly conventional soul. Brianboulton (talk) 11:47, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • ”His overtly expressed atheism particularly troubled the school, and he was required to leave.”: This sounds quite intriguing. Any further details worth adding? We are basically saying he was expelled. What did he do?
  • While referreng to Tippett's "undisguised atheism", the only practical examples Kemp gives are his refusal to contribute to the collections at school services and his boycotting of house prayers. Thse would have been considered serious breaches of conduct in a 1920s British school. He wasn't expelled exactly, but his parents were advised not to send him back the following term, which I suppose amounts to much the same thing. Brianboulton (talk) 14:49, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • ”In 1923 Henry Tippett agreed to support his son in a course of study at the Royal College of Music”: Any reason for the change of attitude?
  • Also, in passing, was his overt atheism not a problem at the RCM, as opposed to Stamford?
  • Anything further on his sexuality as a young man? We go from “bullying, sadism and homosexuality among the pupils were rife” at school, and that he had formed a relationship, to “By this time Tippett was coming to terms with his homosexuality” when he met Wilfred Franks. Are there any intervening steps? It feels a touch abrupt, but maybe it’s just me.
  • There are references in the sources to occasional relationships in his college years. I have summarised these in the last line of the RCM section, and don't feel it appropriate to go further. I want the focus of the article to be on Tippett the musician, not Tippett the homosexual. Brianboulton (talk) 14:49, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • ”Both works proved hugely popular with their worker-audiences”: Do we really need a hyphen in “worker-audiences”?
  • ”…became the first in the official canon of Tippett's music”: What official canon? Or maybe whose official canon? This is mentioned later too, and could perhaps be defined for the non-specialist.
  • I have changed "official" to "recognised", to avoid the impression of some outside officialdom. I think readers will understand, articularly as we have previously discussed a number of "withdrawn" works. Brianboulton (talk) 14:49, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • ”when he was assigned to non-combatant duties”: Is it worth saying what those duties were?
  • He was initially assigned to the ARP (Air Raid Precautions) or the Fire Service, or to work on the land. Later he was given further options including ENSA. The point, though, is that he refused to comply with any of these. I prefer to keep thing simple. Brianboulton (talk) 14:49, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • ”In the summer of 1965 Tippett made the first of many visits to the United States, to serve as composer in residence at the Aspen Music Festival in Colorado, .”: Something has gone wrong at the end of the sentence here with the punctuation.
  • In the nomination above, you state that he was "less naturally gifted than Britten". Unless I've missed it (which is possible) this doesn't seem to be in the article directly. Is it a point that could be made explicitly? Sarastro1 (talk) 21:38, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think it is fairly self-evident that Tippett was less naturally gifted than Britten, given the speed with which BB established himself in the music world and the time that it took Tippett to do so, but I don't want to overdo the Britten–Tippett comparison in the article. Thank you for your thoughtful comments and suggestions, which I have iether adopted or answered, and thanks for the support. Brianboulton (talk) 14:49, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Hamiltonstone. Generally excellent and well-referenced, and support i would oppose it while it contains one particular clanger:

  • "The school was not a happy place; bullying, sadism and homosexuality among the pupils were rife". This linking of a sexual orientation to anti-social behaviour and thence to unhappiness is completely untenable. Homosexuality cannot be "rife" either, it is like saying red-headedness was rife. Serious need of a tweak.
    • Would it be better to say homosexual activity rather than homosexuality? By the way, homosexual activity between men was a criminal offence in the UK in those days. Such activity was an expelling offence in schools and something to be concealed at all costs. To avoid the implications you point out, how about: "The school was not a happy place: bullying and sadism were rife, and homosexual activity, a cause of great shame on those days, was common among the pupils", or words like that? --Stfg (talk) 11:55, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Hmm. I recognise that homosexual acts were criminalised in that period. The two things I want to avoid is the bracketing of homosexuality (a state of sexual preference) with sadism and bullying (forms of anti-social behaviour), and the application of the term "rife" to homosexuality; I also agree that referring to acts or activity may also assist. The problem with "shame" is that it places its origin within the individual, in contrast to the term "stigma" for example, which places it in the society which criminalises the act (which i would suggest is more accurate, while accepting that Tippett, like others, did struggle with his own sexual identity). How about: "The school was not a happy place: bullying and sadism were rife, and homosexual activity, which was illegal, was common among the pupils"? Can I just check though: do the sources refer to homosexuality, or to homosexual acts? In the circumstances, the distinction could be important.hamiltonstone (talk) 22:26, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • I am sorry if my wording caused offence. In fact it follows the sources quite closely, e.g. Bowen: "He found the bullying, the homosxuality and the emphasis on cold baths quite intolerable"; and Kemp: "Bullying and sadism were commnplace ... The ageing headmaster zealously upheld the principle that the younger boys were the property of the older". I take the point that homosexuality as such should not be automatically aligned with sadism and bullying, although sexual bullying in such schools was common, even in my day, half a century after Tippett. I have reworded the phrase to "sadistic bullying of the younger pupils was commonplace", leaving out direct reference to the sexual element. I personally prefer this to the extended wording suggested above, but I am happy to be guided. Brianboulton (talk) 10:12, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • Given that the social stigma once applied to homosexuality is today far less than it was when Tippett was a schoolboy, it is difficult to convey to readers nowadays the covert and often warped sexuality to be found at British boarding schools, not all of it involving younger pupils, mixed with much overt homophobia, even in the 1960s and '70s. Given this, and the dangers of WP:SYN and WP:OR (looking at the available sources), I think Brian has done a very tactful and acceptable edit. (btw, a minor point, but given that boys' boarding schools were, by definition, single sex and boarders' contact with girls was, at best, strictly controlled in Tippett's time, to an extent I think it might have been said that in those circumstances homosexuality, or rather homosexual acts, were "rife".) Alfietucker (talk) 10:36, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
            • Thanks Brian. I wasn't offended, just would not want to see concepts inappropriately connected. Agree with much of Alfie's observations including that in some such circumstances it is homosexual acts, not homosexuality, which may be common. Brian's solution appears excellent and focusses on the core of the problem i think. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:50, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Other comments:

  • "His overtly expressed atheism" should this perhaps be hyphenated as "overtly-expressed"? But I'm not sure.
  • "quasi-authentic". Really? The previous sentence expresses what is meant, but to my ear "quasi-authentic" is a contradiction. i would omit the description altogether since we have already been told the meaning.
  • I used "quasi" (Latin: "as if") in the sense of "resembling but not actually", but I accept that, given the description in the previous sentence, the term is unnecessary and have removed it. Brianboulton (talk) 15:05, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am not sure that the final para, beginning "In the 1930s, while still unsure of his sexuality,..." is in the right place. It is both an odd way to end the article, and not really text appropriate to the section's heading "reputation and legacy". While it obviously addresses a great time span, I would try it as the first paragraph of "Later life".
  • I have moved the paragraph to where you suggest. I agree that it doesn't fit comfortably in a "Legacy" section, though I'm not absolutely convinced it's in the best place now. If further thoughts occur, I may move it again. Brianboulton (talk) 15:05, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the Wright reference, I assume the 2 is meant to be a quote mark or similar? "2Decline or renewal in late Tippett..."
  • This seems to have been fixed.

Marvellous research and writing. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:09, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support: I was another who had my say at PR and it has only been strengthened since then. Another excellent and interesting read. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 16:11, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support: I had my say at PR and I fully support this article's promotion to FA - a very impressive piece of work. Alfietucker (talk) 21:36, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My sincere thanks to the above two, whose contributions at the peer review stage were much appreciated. Brianboulton (talk) 20:01, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]


SupportComment Is After Britten's death in 1976, Tippett became widely regarded as the doyen of British music. However, critical opinion of his later works was by no means uniformly positive; after the first performance of the Triple Concerto in 1980, Driver wrote that "not since The Knot Garden has [he] produced anything worthy of his early masterpieces". really up to our standards for prose? I don't like the "however", which seems to me to imply a contradiction where none should exist, and the tailend of the sentence looks clumsy. Any suggestions? --John (talk) 20:18, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Re "However", I think Stfg has already answered this very well on Talk:Michael Tippett#However: "However signals (or acknowledges) a contrast, not necessarily anywhere near as strong as a contradiction. By all means choose another link word, but with no link word at all, I find it bumpy -- anything but "brilliant prose"." Alfietucker (talk) 21:36, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think "however" is justified, particular as I have "now amplified on the "doyen" description. I do accept that, as noted on the talk, "by no means uniformly positive" is unnecessarily verbose and have simplified this to "not always positive". Brianboulton (talk) 15:37, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I now support based on the minor changes made on the article. It's a fine piece of work. --John (talk) 22:23, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the support, and for the numerous minor improvements you made to the prose in the course of your unobtrusive review. Brianboulton (talk) 00:05, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose—To start with, I cannot support the unsourced gossip in the lead concerning a comparison with another composer. It violates WP:UNDUE; it is highly unusual for a bio article, particularly one on an artist, scholar, or scientist. Tony (talk) 14:57, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I do not understand this objection. Stating that "he was considered to rank with his contemporary Benjamin Britten as one of the leading British composers" is hardly making a comparison, merely reflecting what critics have written. If you are objecting to the words "with his contemporary Benjamin Britten" perhaps you'd say so, and we can discuss the matter. In any event, comparisons between Tippett and Britten are not "unsourced gossip". Indeed, Whittall wrote an entire book on the subject, which is quoted from in the Legacy section. I also quote from a newspaper report which compares the post-mortem fortunes of the two. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the point of your objection; meanwhile I contend that the article gives no undue weight to this comparison, and will be interested to see if other editors share your viewpoint. Brianboulton (talk) 15:17, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure I see anything either unsourced, or that could be described as gossip. As per WP:LEAD, I see a lead that reflects the contents of the article, and the comparison between Britten and Tippett are adequately covered in reliable sources in the article body. - SchroCat (talk) 15:40, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I too am perplexed by Tony1's comment. The relations between Tippett and Britten and comparisons between their music are a recurrent theme in the relevant literature, and, as SchroCat says, sourced citations are given in the main text. The phrase "unsourced gossip" is way off the mark, as the material is neither unsourced nor gossip. I worked recently on the biography part of the Britten FA and everything in the present article relevant to the relationship between and music of Britten and Tippett accords with what I know from my researches for that. In my opinion this stray "oppose" carries no weight and should be withdrawn or discounted. Tim riley (talk) 17:45, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tony1, could you elaborate on this "gossip"? I don't see it either. --CassiantoTalk 20:14, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't want to overegg the pudding, but among relevant material not used in the article is Meirion Bowen's 1986 programme note "Britten, Tippett and the Second English Musical Renaissance" which regards the two as " figureheads for a fresh surge of compositional activity in this country after the Second World War"; Charles Fussell's 1984 review of Whittall's book, here, which brackets them as "two twentieth century masters", and some interesting stuff in Humphrey Burton's Britten biography which notes that, in the early 1970s, "Britten's reputation had been overtaken by that of Tippett" – and that Tippett was aware of this! My article is not basically about Tippett vis à vis Britten; the main purpose of mentioning the latter is to establish that, in the view of many critics, Tippett was "up there" with the best. I must say, finally, that Tony was very helpful in the early stages of the article's development, and I welcomed his cooperation. Brianboulton (talk) 20:26, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't take all that much store by Bowen. Why is Britten not "considered to rank with his contemporary" Tippettt, in the lead to the article on Britten? This cannot help but cast Tippett as second fiddle. He would have hated it. He and Britten had a strained relationship, to put it mildly, and it's POV to privilege one over the other in this way. If it's sourced in the article further down, that is fine: to trumpet it as a key aspect of understanding the phenomenon of Tippett is most inappropriate. Tony (talk) 08:11, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rather than get drawn on the issue of who thought/thinks Tippett ranks alongside or out-ranks Britten (though one could also mention Sir Colin Davis and Robert Tear among those who thought Tippett a greater composer), I would just point out that the sentence as it stands has the qualifying words "In his [Tippett's] lifetime..." and "one of the leading British composers of the 20th century". Note that it doesn't say "one of the two leading British composers of the 20th century", so it doesn't even suggest that Tippett is somehow equal to Britten - just someone who ranks alongside Britten in being esteemed as a "leading British composers of the 20th century". Nor does it suggest he shares the same esteem today - on the contrary, the lead then mentions "His centenary in 2005 was a muted affair; apart from the few best-known works, performances of his music have been infrequent in the 21st century.". A possible compromise might be (bearing in mind that the 20th century included Vaughan Williams, Walton and Elgar) to say instead "one of the leading British composers of his generation". What does everyone else think? Alfietucker (talk) 09:30, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks, Alfie, for your summary of the situation and for your suggested solution. Per Tony: I don't see that mentioning the two in the same breath in the lead is "trumpeting", as you call it, it's merely an observation that helps to put Tippett into perspective among recent English composers. I am frankly surprised that you should accuse me of resorting to "unsourced gossip" in preparing articles; I do have higher standards than that. As I have said, though, the article is not intended to provide a comparison between Tippett and Britten. To bring an end to this discussion I am prepared to remove the words "with his contemporary Benjamin Britten" from the first paragraph, and to adopt Alfie's "of his generation" format, if that will meet your objection. Brianboulton (talk) 10:12, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is an important aspect of Tippett that the near-veneration he enjoyed in the latter part of his life eroded after his death. The rather underwhelming centenary celebrations were a reflection of this. What "wrong impression" are you suggesting is given by the brief mention in the lead? Incidentally, do you intend interacting with above discussion, which is an attempt to resolve your "Britten and Tippett" concern? Brianboulton (talk) 16:08, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • I'm not entirely sure "in 1996 he broke his retirement to write "Caliban's Song" as a contribution to the Purcell tercentenary" is sufficient to support "active into his 90s" in the lead, although technically correct
  • Check alphabetization of Sources
  • Be consistent in whether you disambiguate short cites by the same author using date or title. If the latter is chosen, Gloag's chapter titles should use quotes not italics
  • FN80: page range is unabbreviated here, abbreviated elsewhere
  • Ridout: check wikilinking
  • Check formatting of quote marks within titles
  • Collisson or Collinson?
  • FN162: which Whittall?
  • No citations to Ford, Venn. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:34, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • All the above fixed – thanks for your diligence. In the caption, "active" means in the general sense, rather than strictly compositional, e.g. he still got around, went to festivals etc. He even travelled to Stockholm a couple of months before his death. So I think the term is probably justified. Brianboulton (talk) 15:57, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A few niggles:

  • "So God ..." box. Is the quoted text significantly indented for other people too, or is it just a quirk of my browser?
  • Newton Park snow pic: is it really sufficiently relevant to include. It's a pity there are so few free pics related to Tippett.
  • String Quartet No. 1: is that meant to be in italics? And later, "Fifth String Quartet"; could the naming be regularlised?
  • The basis for italiciastion I've used, I think consistently, is to italicise descriptive titles such as The Rose Lake or Variations on a theme of Corelli, but to leave unitalicised titles which are a numbered common genre, e.g. Symphony No 1, String Quartet No 1 etc. There are a few borderline instances, and I may have slipped up once or twice. As to "String Quartet No 1" versus "First String Quartet", I find that sources use these formats interchangeably, perhaps to vary the prose, and I have followed in their footsteps. Brianboulton (talk) 17:22, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Tippett could have studied with Ralph Vaughan Williams, but decided against this because he thought this would lead him into imitation of his distinguished teacher, rather than towards finding his own voice."—Is the distinguished teacher referred to actually Vaughan Williams, that is, the one he didn't study under? I'm confused.
  • I have amended the note: "Tippett could have studied with Ralph Vaughan Williams, but decided against this because he thought that study under so distinguished a teacher would lead him to imitation rather than towards finding his own voice."
  • Is it both Clarke and Kemp (refs 35 and 121) whose idea it was to divide his output into three stages, as used below to structure the text about his works? I don't get a sense at the start of each of these "period" sections of of text that the rationale for the discontinuity is explained. For example, "The 1960s marked the beginning of a new phase in which Tippett's style became more experimental, reflecting both the social and cultural changes of that era, and the broadening of his own experiences." doesn't quite ring true to me ... there were plenty of experiments before then. The Triple Concerto (1972)—which "period" does this fall into? It has moments of extraordinary lyricism; it is very experimental in some ways; and in conception I'd say it harks beck to the triple concertos of previous centuries, particularly Brahms's.
  • Clarke specifically divides the output into three phases; Kemp, writing in the early 1980s, doesn't say much about the post 1976 compositions, though he marks the break of the late 50s–early 1960s. The "great divide" circa 1960 is marked in various sources, as is the return to lyricism late in the composer's career. But the dividing lines are not absolute, hence the reference to "fluid boundaries" – this acknowledges that Tippett certainly experimented before the 1960s and wrote lyrical episodes in every phase of his career. Brianboulton (talk) 17:22, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article describes the "general characteristics" of his music, but nowhere is there a description of the hallmarks of his music style—his harmonic language, counterpoint, rhythm, scoring, formal structures, textural devices. This is not something that WP's composer articles are strong on; but now is a good time to think about it. Groves Dictionary is better at this. Tony (talk) 13:02, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • On the last point, I think that a comparison with the ODNB article is perhaps more apposite than that with Grove. The Grove Online article (Clarke) was written with a particular readership in mind – music scholars or students. Much of it is incomprehensible to the general reader (sample text: "That of the Double Concerto (ex.1) draws its intervallic profile from the pentatonic collection E–F♯–A–B–D, or transposed fragments of it. The set in its various transpositions confers a unifying tendency on the work as a whole, symptomatic of a symphonic conception..." – there is much more of that ilk). I have always sought in my WP music biographies to describe the composer's music in terms that the general reader can understand, not to get bogged down in technical descriptions. The links to scholarly articles, and the identification of expert sources, are there to assist the discriminating reader in studying further. Brianboulton (talk) 17:22, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Brian, thanks for your responses and edits. Yes, defining the style is a hard task. I have Kemp open in front of me, and it's not easy to extract something that useable. Nevertheless, it would be possible to give musical readers (not specialists) a general feeling for the character of his music – the rhythmic features, including metrical instability; the reasonably high level of harmonic dissonance and, in places, the use of bitonality; the dramatic use of modulation; the expansive character of his melodies; the use, in some works, of classical forms. Stravinsky isn't named as an influence, but the seminal Second Symphony owes an awful lot to his neoclassical period. The way the symphony closes with the augmentation of the opening idea seems to have come from Stravinsky's Symphony in C, and although derivative in a sense, is beautifully handled. Surely someone has written about this. Tony (talk) 07:41, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • The most recent scholarly discussion of Tippett's symphonies is Edward Venn's essay in the 2013 Cambridge Companion. He acknowledges the Second Symphony's debt to Stravinskian neoclassicism, without referring specifically to the latter's Symphony in C. I agree that Stravinsky should be mentioned in the influences, and beyond that I will add some material to the "General character" section to further explain Tippet's music in terms of rhythm, metre, bitonality etc. It may be a day or two before I get to this, as I have first to tackle the remainder of Stfg's objections on which I am presently working. Brianboulton (talk) 10:07, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • I have now added a couple of paragraphs to the "General character" section, along the lines indicated above. Together with the preceding paragraphs, and the "Influences" section which follows, I think these details give general readers a reasonable feel for the nature of Tippett's music, and something of the philosophy behind it, in language that will not completely defeat them. I have also added Stravinsky to the influences – bad omission, that. Brianboulton (talk) 21:21, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Stfg

Disclaimer: I've only reviewed what's in the article itself, and mainly for the quality of writing. I haven't carried out spot checks of sources for verification and proper paraphrasing.

The article is well on its way to featured standard, with an especially good coverage of Tippett's life. However, I feel that the prose has some way to go. For me there are two or three showstoppers and quite a large number of details to fix. So, although I hope to move to support before review time is up, it's oppose for now. Support The article is an excellent read, and I'm happy that all the points I raised below are dealt with. --Stfg (talk) 18:21, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Major points:

  • The whole Works section is too much of a quote farm. Quotes need to give information, not merely a stream-of-consciousness impression. An example of a good one is "gift for launching a confident flow of sharply characterized, contrapuntally combined ideas", which tells us something about Tippett's style. A few examples of verbiage and drivel are:
    • "strongly structured, richly textured and intensely expressive"
    • "one of the supreme musical-theatrical creations of our bruised and battered century"
    • "[o]ne could not easily bear a plethora of performances, for the work burns too deeply" (and by the way, in that one there's a line wrap after [o] on my display: you need to use {{nobreak}} if you do this kind of thing)
    • "I long to hear this stirring, paining, interrogating, always compelling music many times and as often as possible"
and there are plenty more. All the quotations really need going over to see which could be paraphrased.
  • The severe over-use of semicolons, which badly disrupt the reading experience. I'm wondering if this is an epidemic in WikiProject Classical Music, since I've seen it before, and at least two other editors have commented on it. Good uses of semicolons are listed at Semicolon#Usage (which gives clearer and better guidance than WP:SEMICOLON, imo). Good uses in this article include all three lists of elements that themselves have structure, and perhaps the sentence "Both of these works show influence of folk music; the finale of the Piano Sonata is marked by innovative jazz syncopations.", where there is some balance between the two halves. But things like "His farewell took the form of three concerts which he conducted at the new Royal Festival Hall; the programmes included A Child of Our Time, the British premiere of Carl Orff's Carmina Burana, and Thomas Tallis's rarely-performed 40-part motet Spem in alium." have no merit at all. They serve merely to distract the reader from the content to the writing, and thus to arouse suspicion that the writer is showing off. The semicolon expresses no useful nuance -- and nuance should anyway be expressed with words and syntax, not with punctuation, for reasons of accessibility. There are zillions of examples like this in the article.
  • There are also some plain incorrect commas, though they are less irritating. For example, "in 1983 Tippett became president of the London College of Music, and was appointed to the Order of Merit" is wrong, because this is just two things, and you don't put commas in lists of two. (I corrected that one and a few others, but there are dozens more.) Also, the article is not yet completely consistent as to whether or not it uses serial commas.
    • The comment on commas is still my view, but it has been fairly challenged by Tony, and I don't want us to get bogged down with it here. So I've struck it, and it won't be an obstacle to stop me moving to support when the other comments are addressed. --Stfg (talk) 12:09, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Detailed comments: Not bothering to strike all these -- too tedious -- but I think everything has been dealt with but one, which I'll add at the end. --Stfg (talk) 18:21, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Lede:

  • "were enamoured of" is verbose -- welcomed?
  • "the communist cause" likewise -- communism?

Family background

  • why is "Liberal" capitalized? (if it's the party, then worth wikilinking)
  • "at Trafalgar Square" -> "in Trafalgar Square"
  • suffragism/suffragette duplicated link

Childhood and schooling

  • "when Tippett and another boy played, on pianos, Bach's C minor Concerto for Two Harpsichords with a local string orchestra": a less awkward word order would be "when Tippett and another boy played Bach's C minor Concerto for Two Harpsichords on pianos with a local string orchestra". Also, see Harpsichord concertos (J. S. Bach)#Concertos for two harpsichords. Both BVW1060 and BVW1062 are in C minor. Do we know which one this was? If so, we could wikilink it.

Royal College of Music

  • "Rather than continuing to study for a doctorate, Tippett decided to leave the academic environment at that point": the last 3 words are redundant.
  • should wikilink Limpsfield.

False start

  • Duplicate link to Stanford.

Friendships, politics and music

  • "Its first public concert was held on 5 March 1933; the venue was Morley College, later to become Tippett's professional base." Choppy, even disregarding the semicolon. Better: "Its first public concert was held on 5 March 1933 at Morley College, later to become Tippett's professional base."
  • I changed the width of the quote box from 180px to 18em. Setting the width in pixels interacts badly with user font size settings. I hope that's all right.
  • "at Boosbeck" -> "in Boosbeck"
  • "In October 1934 Tippett and the South London Orchestra performed at a centenary celebration of the Tolpuddle Martyrs, within a grand Pageant of Labour at the Crystal Palace." -- "within" reads quite strangely here -- "as part of"?

A Child of Our Time

  • "Using a three-part structure based on Handel's Messiah, Tippett took the novel step of using North American spirituals in place of the traditional chorales that punctuate oratorio texts." (a) In what sense is the structure "based on" that of Messiah? Lots of things have three-part structures. (b) It's a bit confusing, because Messiah doesn't have chorales. Maybe we need two separatye sentences here?
  • As the Child article explains: "The text that Tippett prepared follows the three-part structure used in Handel's Messiah, in which Part I is prophetic and preparatory, Part II narrative and epic, Part III meditative and metaphysical." I didn't think that level of detail was necessary in this article, but I can add it if necessary. I think your (b) confusion might be mitigated by replacing "Using" with "Within". Brianboulton (talk) 23:02, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The spirituals provide, according to Kenneth Gloag's commentary on the work, 'moments of focus ...'" is a bit bumpy. Better: "According to Kenneth Gloag's commentary on the work, the spirituals provide 'moments of focus ...'"?

Morley, war, imprisonment

Recognition and controversy

  • "Alfred Deller, the counter-tenor, ..." -> "the counter-tenor Alfred Deller ..."
  • A small point, but the problem with that format is that it creates undivided blue, while my format separates the links with "the".
  • "rarely-performed" no hyphen
  • "tenor voice" -> just "tenor"
  • "arranged some of the music into a concert suite" -> "... as a concert suite"

King Priam and after

  • "the village High Street at Corsham in Wiltshire" : in or of, not at
  • "of" sounds wrong, as does "in the village High Street in Corsham in Wiltshire". I have simplified to "In 1960 Tippett moved to a house in the Wiltshire village of Corsham,
  • "a 'great divide' in Tippett's music, between the works ..." : "in Tippett's music" is redundant

Wider horizons

  • "further afield, " redundant
  • "Tippett had maintained his pacifist beliefs, while becoming generally less public in expressing them, and since 1959 had been president of the Peace Pledge Union." why had (both times)?

Later life

  • "His libretto has been criticised for its awkward attempts at American street vernacular,[97] and has not found a place in the general repertory" -> "His libretto has been criticised for its awkward attempts at American street vernacular,[97] and the opera has not found a place in the general repertory"
  • "This is an attempt, in Tippett's words, to ..." -> "In Tippett's words, this is an attempt to ..." because the quote, not the attempt, is in Tippett's words.
  • "At home, " redundant.
  • Duplicate link to gamelan.

General characterics

  • Arnold Whittall sees the music as embodying Tippett's philosophy of "ultimately optimistic humanism",[106] reflecting a century, Kemp recalls, of "two world wars, a rape of civilised values more horrible and protracted than had ever been known before. -- This looks like synthesis. Did either Tippett nor Kemp say the whole thing?

Works

  • "formal compositional career" -- formal?

First period: 1935 to late 1950s

  • Parenthetic "Kemp says" ... parenthetic "Tippett says" : repetitious.
  • Duplicate links to Symphony No. 1 and Symphony No. 2

Second period: King Priam to 1976

  • Duplicate links to The Knot Garden, The Ice Break and The Times

Third period: 1977 to 1995

  • "the latter 1970s" -> "the late 1970s"?
  • Duplicate links to Symphony No. 4 and New Year

--Stfg (talk) 18:22, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your review. I have worked through your "Detailed comments", and except where I have indicated, you can take it that I have adopted your suggestion or something very similar. Tomorrow I will work on the semicolons and other punctuation issues, before tackling the quotes. Brianboulton (talk) 00:10, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Stfg, mostly very good points, but I think you're a little severe ("verbiage and drivel"?). Brian's a first-class writer, although of course needs feedback and correction like the best. I don't quite agree with some of your suggestions/criticisms, such as the removal of the comma after "and". Tony (talk) 07:46, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for reading them, Tony. I comment on the writing, not on the writer (and naturally my comments -- and writing efforts -- need feedback and correction just as much). "Verbiage and drivel" applies to what is inside those quotes, of course, not to Brian's writing. Your comment about commas surprises me a lot. I suspect that a discussion of commas with "and" could run and run, and we should try not to bog down a FAC review with it. Do you want to have that discussion? Where? --Stfg (talk) 09:46, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Just to add: I don't feel in the least that the "verbiage and drivel" comment was aimed at me, rather than at the quotes themselves. I had a quiet chuckle – we should not take ourselves, or our subjects, too seriously. Over-reliance on verbatim quotations, particularly when they are plucked from context, is a fault for which I have often taken editors to task when reviewing, and I am happy to accept the criticism here and to remedy it. Brianboulton (talk) 10:17, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For Stfg: I believe I have responded to your concerns as expressed above:

  • See my individual replies to your "detailed comments"
    • Thank you. Yes, I agree with all those except, perhaps, "acknowledged compositional career". I see what you're getting at, but it rings a bit strange. Is "mature compositional career" anywhere nearer? --Stfg (talk) 18:21, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have reduced the semicolon count by about 75 per cent. A few remain, which I think are justified – please let me know if you think otherwise. I admit that a preoccupation with semicolons has tended to infect my prose style since my college days, despite my attempts to curtail it. I shall look closely at a forthcoming TFA (9th November)
  • I have reduced the number of direct quotations in the "Works" section by over half, concentrating particularly those you might describe as "drivel". I believe the balance between quotation and paraphrase is now about right. I have kept the odd drivelly one in, as I don't wish to deprive our esteemed sources of all colour in their expression. So Bowen's "bordello" comment stays in, as does Henehan's acerbic dismissal of New Year, and I have tended to retain Tippett's own words. Let me know what you think. Brianboulton (talk) 18:09, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for the time and trouble you have taken with this article which I believe has, as a result, improved significantly. Thanks, too, for the support. I'll continue to look for an alternative to "acknowledged compositional career". The trouble with "mature" is that he withdrew all his compositions before the First String Quartet - that was the first work that he "acknowledged" to be within his canon. It's a tough one. Brianboulton (talk) 21:42, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I guess there may not be a completely natural way to say that part of his compositional career when he wrote the works he didn't withdraw :) The context is "After the withdrawn works written in the 1920s and early 1930s, analysts generally divide Tippett's acknowledged compositional career into three main phases, ...". In that context, would "the remainder of Tippett's compositional career" do it? Or even, since we're discussing his work, just "the rest of Tippett's output"? --Stfg (talk) 22:05, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have changed "acknowledged" to "mature", which is a bit risky as he was 30 at the time. But musically he was a late starter, so I think the word can be justified, and it probably raises fewer questions than "acknowledged". Brianboulton (talk) 11:31, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Notes

  • Perhaps as a military history editor I'm a bit jaded but I always tend to think it's unnecessary to link such a broad and (presumably!) well-known topic as Second World War...
  • I noticed half a dozen duplinks to various works and concepts -- was that deliberate given the article's organisation?

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:01, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Ian. I have delinked both world wars (I agree not necessary). The duplicate links were deliberate; it's my practice to re-link works mentioned in the music section, as often in composer biographies this section is studied separately from the "Life" section. I note I have missed a couple of repeat links, and I will attend to these. Brianboulton (talk) 19:35, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Tks Brian, that's all fine. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:26, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:Ian Rose 08:33, 22 August 2013 [14].

Law School of Beirut

Nominator(s): Eli+ 13:23, 3 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This article came into being only recently. I looked up forgotten sources such as Collinet who dedicated a great part of his life to bring back the school from oblivion.The Law School of Beirut was an important learning center of the classical antiquity, it is much less known than the library of Alexandria for example. I believe that the scarce historical sources that Collinet and other researchers relied on provide enough material to ensure an adequate coverage of the subject. The article also passed GA review, I hope a FA review and your suggestions will help me improve it further. Eli+ 13:23, 3 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done, PD attribution tag present

  1. Source for "From a legal point of view..."?
  2. Source for "The first mention of the school's premises..."?
  3. Ranges should consistently use endashes
  4. Missing full bibliographic info for Decline and Fall
  5. Be consistent in whether you provide locations for books
  6. What makes cosmovisions a high-quality reliable source?
  7. Publisher for Mommsen?
  8. Format of Further reading. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:35, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your time Nikkimaria, I numbered the list of your comments to make it easier to address them.
  1. Yes, you are right, the term is superfluous and does not add the article. source to the passage was added.
  2. Source for "The first mention of the school's premises..." is Collinet; added.
  3. en-dashes issue fixed
  4. Missing full bibliographic info for 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire added
  5. some refs don't specify location, location removed
  6. Right on, cosmovision ref removed.
  7. Publisher for Mommsen provided
  8. can do without further reading section especially that reviewer Khazar2 pointed out that article can't be used as a reliable source earlier. Eli+ 17:28, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Great. Check alphabetization of Bibliography, inclusion of locations is still inconsistent, and check format on Skaf. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:30, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
done; Skaff's is a conference paper published in a journal and it was cluttering the references section so I moved it as Quadell recommeded. -Eli+ 12:42, 21 August 2013 (UTC) [reply]
Comments from Ceranthor
Lead
  • Jurisconsults - Someone unfamiliar with law (ie. me) knows nothing of this term
It's synonymous with jurist, a person who studies and deals with the law. All instances were replaced -Eli+ 11:22, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Justinian took a personal interest in the teaching process, and charged the teachers, the bishop of Beirut, and the governor of Phoenicia Maritima with maintaining discipline in the school. - Serial comma issue. See below comment. This one differs from the rest, so it seems natural you would want to change this one and leave the rest.
i was a bit hesitant to remove the serial comma, to avoid confusion I will reverse the order so that the readers don't think that the Bishop and governor are among the teachers. I will not use serial comma in the text...-Eli+ 11:22, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Background
  • I don't think Background is the appropriate title for this section. There must be something better.
I can't think of anything else, the section introduces the history section; should i merge the two? -Eli+ 12:10, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
History
  • It was chosen as a regional center instead of the more prominent Phoenician cities of Tyre and Sidon, which had a history of belligerence against Rome.[5][6] - If which means both, you should add "both" after which, because it's unclear.
Right on, done -Eli+ 12:10, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • and the date is much debated among later historians and scholars. - Later is a very vague word choice. It could mean modern or from the 800s.
All post-classical scholars who studied the Law school of Beirut did not and could not determine its founding date -Eli+ 12:10, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Imperial constitutiones arriving in Beirut were translated to Greek, published and then archived. - Previously you'd been using a serial comma. You need to keep this consistent throughout the article, whichever you choose.
For the sake of consitency I won't be using it here. -Eli+ 12:10, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • From 425 onward, Constantinople became a rival center of law study and was the only school, - Constantinope the city was not a school!
Well of course, I thought that was clear. My mistake... - Eli+ 12:10, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • closed those of Alexandria, Caesarea Maritima and Athens in 529 CE.[1] - Again, serial comma.
first serial comma removed -Eli+ 12:10, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Academia
  • Ancient texts provide an idea of the curriculum, the teaching method, the course languages and the duration of the study. - Do you have a source for this statement?
This statement is an introduction to the "Preparatory studies" and "Curriculum" sections both of which are sourced. -Eli+ 12:17, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • grammar, rhetoric and encyclopedic sciences studies. - Serial comma issue
first serial comma removed -Eli+ 12:10, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Another prerequisite was the mastery of Greek but also of the Latin language, - why but also?
I got carried away translating; removed -Eli+ 12:17, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • which is comparable to the one used in the rhetoric schools. - Which rhetoric schools? You haven't mentioned any that I know of.
Neither Collinet nor Jolowicz give examples, but rhetoric schools were widespread. -Eli+ 12:30, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • ' and the lecturer would add his comments, consisting of references to analogous passages from imperial constitutions or from the works of prominent Roman jurists of the like of Ulpian. - I don't like how consisting fits here. Perhaps which consisted of or that consisted of?
Okay -Eli+ 12:30, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gaius, Ulpian, Papinian and Paul the jurist. - serial comma issue
first serial comma removed -Eli+ 12:30, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'The students of each year were distinguished by special names: 1st year, Dupondii; 2nd, Edictales; 3rd, Papinianistae; 4th, Lytae.[26] - I thought there were five years?
that was before the Justinian reform, review the passage plz -Eli+ 12:30, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • consisted of taught elements - Taught elements? I don't like it. It's too fluffy.
Yes it is :S >>> "lectures" -Eli+ 12:30, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • namely the Institutes, Digest and Code.[27][28] - Serial comma issue
first serial comma removed -Eli+ 12:30, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Footnote c: Digest should be capitalized.
Done -Eli+ 12:30, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • What are "cognomens"? I can tell but it should not be so unclear. This shouldn't be reading comprehension.
Okay, okay :S >> changed to "nickname" -Eli+ 12:30, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Professorial body
  • the scarce sources include historical accounts, juridic works, anthologies, ancient correspondences and funerary inscriptions. - serial comma issue
first serial comma removed -Eli+ 12:30, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rhetoric teacher Libanius wrote many letters of correspondence to a fourth-century law school professor called Domninus (the Elder). - Why put it in parentheses?
yes, u r right -Eli+ 13:31, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Libanius attempted to recruit Domninus in the school of Antioch where he taught, - This is mostly incomprehensible. What does that mean?
Libanius invited Domninus to teach with him at the school of Antioch. __ does this do it? -Eli+ 13:31, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cyrillus, Patricius, Domninus, Demosthenes, Eudoxius, Leontius and Amblichus.[32] - serial comma issue
first serial comma removed -Eli+ 12:30, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • He is believed to have taught from 400–410 CE to 538 CE. This is unclear, though I believe I know what it means. If you're unsure about the exact start date, make that obvious.
He is believed to have taught from c. 400 or c. 410 CE to 538 CE. -Eli+ 13:31, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • ecumenical school of jurists. - Which was?
it's a succession of highly esteemed law masters: the oecumenical; oecumenical means "universal". I will hopefully start an article for this one too. -Eli+ 13:31, 5 August 2013 (UTC) [reply]
  • the Basilica or the Basilika? MAKE UP YOUR MIND!
Blame the wikipedia article -Eli+ 13:31, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • (υπομνημα των δεφινιτων) - Translation, please.
the name of the book roughly translates to "memo on definitions" (or treatise) but i prefer not to make that assertion on the article page; im no expert in Greek.-Eli+ 13:31, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's just "treatise on definitions", but definition is of Latin derivation, not Greek. The form given by the sources are from a single citation in a late law text which is transliterating a Latin source, and the phrase need not be presented as a title. Best just to delete the parenthetical Greek and let the already present description as "treatise on definitions" suffice.  davidiad { t } 01:56, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Davidiad, greek text removed. Eli+ 22:36, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Patricius is a fifth-century teacher who garnered praise - Pretty sure he was a teacher. I don't think he's still around...
LOL okay, done -Eli+ 13:31, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Beirut law school. - Capitalize Law School.
I'll wait for a consensus on this one -Eli+ 13:31, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Later came Domninus the Younger, Demosthenes and Eudoxius, who were coevals. - Serial comma issue, and what are coevals?
replaced by contemporaries although i still think coevals is better -Eli+ 13:31, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Leontius was another Ecumenical Master, a son of Eudoxius and the father of Anatolius, who was summoned by the imperial court to assist with the writing of the Justinian Code. - This sentence is a mess.
rephrased -Eli+ 13:31, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Beirut law school - Caps!
you are HORRIBLE :P, I think I'm gonna wait for the consensus, all instances should become "Law school of Beirut" -Eli+ 13:31, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Euxenius was the brother of the city's bishop Eustathius and was involved in the 460 CE religious controversy caused by Timothy Aelurus.[39] - A brief description would be nice.
changes made; is this enough -Eli+ 13:43, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • e Dorotheus, Anatolius and Julianus. - Serial comma issue
first serial comma removed -Eli+ 12:30, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Julianus Antecessor, the last known professor of Beirut, is extolled by Theaetetus as "the light of the law". - Citation?
epithet given by Irnerius, documented by Pringsheim before Collinet
  • to the teachers, the city's bishop and the governor of Phoenicia Maritima.[28][43] - Serial comma issue.
first serial comma removed -Eli+ 12:30, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's a decent amount to do. More later. I have to weak oppose given the number of issues, but I don't think any will be difficult to fix. ceranthor 15:14, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

hello Ceranthor, your comments are much appreciated. I wil startl fixing the issues as of tomorrow. Meanwhile stay calm, enjoy life, it's beautiful and please just DON'T SHOUT :P OOPS was that a serial comma ? :P -Eli+ 20:14, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Don't you worry, I spent a lot of time outside today! Sorry for the shouting, I just have a loud personality. ceranthor 00:47, 31 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
LOL, I'm happy for you. Ok, I don't want to vex you... but concerning the serial comma issue, which in my POV is not an issue. In my own experience, this is serial comma: I ate chinese food, fooken chicken, and whacked fox tails.; whereas there is no serial comma in this sentence I ate chinese food, fooken chickem and whacked fox tails. I haven't reviewed my text yet BUT I'm pretty sure I never used a serial comma there. Anyway a serial comma should not be an issue (even if it's there) as long as it clears confusion. I commend your thorough an comprehensive notes but for now I will overlook the serial comma issues you mentioned until I get a second opinion. I will be working on the article soon (I hope), real life is a bitch... but it's still beautiful... Keep smiling buddy :) -Eli+ 11:19, 1 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Outside interjection: Wikipedia:MoS#Serial_commas requires that the choice to use serial commas or not be consistent within an article, except in those rare cases where to do so would cause confusion. (Examples are given in the MoS.) Unless it's one of those rare cases, all applicable sentences need to use the serial comma, or all applicable sentences need to omit it. (Either is fine.) – Quadell (talk) 18:38, 1 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's exactly what I said. See above "Previously you'd been using a serial comma. You need to keep this consistent throughout the article, whichever you choose." The consistency is the serial comma issue. Sorry that was at all unclear. ceranthor 02:36, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I've been delighted to have this article ever since I first learned of it, and congratulate Eli on creating it and persevering to bring it to this level. I just wanted to express two reservations regarding the granting of FA status at this particular moment.
    • The source most ubiquitously cited is from 1925, and I'm concerned that FA status as a "model" article would make it seem like it's OK to base articles about classical antiquity on old sources. Let me qualify that by saying that 19th- and early 20th-scholarship is still considered foundational in the field of classical studies, and Mommsen will always be there. But when I took a cursory look at this topic (I mentioned it in Roman Empire#Secondary and higher education before the article existed), I found a lot of stuff from the 1990s to the present. There's been a boom in scholarship on late antiquity during the last three decades, and it seems underrepresented.
I understand your concern, but to my knowledge, Collinet was the only one to run such a dedicated & extensive study of classical sources on the subject. All the modern sources I have checked cite his work so what's the point in citing these newer sources if they don't add to Collinet's work. I don't think anyone can deny Collinet's authority on the subject; his insights and research are the most comprehensive so far. If you happen to have other sources please share them. I will check for other sources and the sources you have used for your secondary and higher education section to see if any address the law school. -Eli+ 11:14, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
MacAdam speaks of the importance of Collinet's work here, p.30;I could not have said it better: "Paul Collinet (1925) compiled the major textual evidence for the education of law in Beirut. Few new materials can be added to this exhaustive and authoritative publication (MacAdam, Henry Innes 2001, Studia et circenses: Beirut’s Roman Law School in its Colonial, Cultural Context, ARAM 13-14: 193-226.)" -Eli+ 05:06, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I should've brought this up earlier, and have been meaning to, but is this the correct title for the article? Seems like "Roman law" needs to be specified. And is "Law School of Beirut" a proper noun? (It doesn't seem to be in Mousourakis[15] [16] [17], CAH[18], Blackwell's Companion to Late Antiquity (2012) [19], or any source I've seen; hence I would disagree with the recommended capitalization above.) The title also raises the question of whether there are no other law schools in modern-day Beirut. Since the title doesn't point to it being about antiquity, and the top image is also of modern structures that don't represent the ancient institution, I find the "first glance" presentation to be a little confusing. I'm wondering whether School of Roman law at Beirut wouldn't be a more accurate title, per sources such as these: [20] (a translation of Mommsen himself), and [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28]. (There are lots more.) This reference is not about Beirut, but indicates that "school of Roman law" is generically useful for these kinds of institutions. Fergus Millar for some reason even problematizes the word "school",[29] so I don't think we have a proper noun to work with anywhere. It isn't like the name of a modern university. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:05, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, I have removed the capitalization from the body, I dunno about the title though, most sources I have checked call the institution either law school of Beirut or - of Berytus. I don't see why we should complicate things further; consider the 'library of Alexandria', its name also raises the question of whether there are no other libraries in modern-day Alexandria, but for the sake of simplicity and for easier access to the topic, I think the title should remain as it is. I have added the variants you guys have suggested in the lead. -Eli+ 11:14, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review by Quadell (including spotchecks)

Resolved issues
Image review by Quadell
  • Why was File:Downtownbeirut.jpg chosen as the main image in the infobox? Is it simply a good picture of a landmark near where the school was? Or does "thought to lie to the north of" mean that the school would be visible in a photo from the same vantage point if it still existed?
    • Follow up: after reading the "location section", the issue is clearer. I would recommend changing the caption to something that makes the image's significance clearer. What would you think of this caption? "The exact location of the Law School of Beirut is uncertain, but it is thought to have lain just north of Nejmeh square, next to the Saint George Greek Orthodox Cathedral." Would that be a more explicit description of the importance of what we're seeing? – Quadell (talk) 15:48, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nitpick: The caption "Justinian I, who instigated the rewriting of Roman law." is not a sentence and should not have a period, per WP:MoS.

All other images are legitimately free, accurately tagged, appropriately used, and well captioned. – Quadell (talk) 13:32, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Main review
  • Many sources call it the "Law School of Berytus", as does the top image caption. I think this alternate name should be in the first sentence.
Okay, done. -Eli+ 12:01, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since the lede should summarize information in the article body, and should not include information not found elsewhere, there is no need to cite the first paragraph. Instead, those citations should be included wherever those facts are stated in the body of the article.
all paragraphs are cited, refs in lead removed. -Eli+ 12:01, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I feel that the Background section should remain separate from the History section. It seems to me that the title "Background" is fine, although something like "Roman jurisprudence" would also work. Would it fit better after the history section, do you think?
I can't think of any other way, I don't like the idea of putting it after the history section because i have arranged the text in chronological order.-Eli+ 12:01, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Occident" links to Western world. Would it be better to use the term "Western world" instead?
fair enough. -Eli+ 12:01, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nitpick: a comma is needed after "along with the Law School of Beiruit".
okay. -Eli+ 12:01, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the sentence "The study course at the Law School of Beirut did not comprise the provincial laws of Phoenica;[21] it only included Roman law." could be reworded for clarity.
reworded -Eli+ 12:01, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Juridic texts were discussed and analyzed, and the lecturer would add his comments, consisting of references to analogous passages from imperial constitutions or from the works of prominent Roman jurists of the like of Ulpian." This needs rewording in several ways. I would recommend "The lecturer would discuss and analyze juridic texts, often adding his own comments. These comments included references to analogous passages from imperial constitutions, or from the works of prominent Roman jurists such as Ulpian." But any better wording of your choice will work.
thank you -Eli+ 12:30, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The prose in the first half of the "Professorial body" section isn't as good as the rest of the article. A style cleanup throughout the section would be wise. Examples of clunky or unclear bits are below.
  • The paragraph beginning "Rhetoric teacher Libanius..." is unclear. Was Libanius in the school of Beirut, and Dominius in the school of Antioch, when they corresponded?
It's the other way around, i reworded the passage. -Eli+ 20:16, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does anyone actually believe Cyrillus was teaching for 138 years? Maybe I'm misunderstanding the sentence.
OMG!!! I must have messed up, i rechecked the source it only says when he started teaching. -Eli+ 20:16, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Scholia" should link to Scholia, since most readers will not know the word.
Okay -Eli+ 20:16, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...revealed a funerary monument which is believed to belong to the deceased Patricius" needs rewording. I don't believe he still owns it, and the fact that he was dead in the 20th century goes without saying.
Indeed -Eli+ 20:16, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "coevals"? That sentence may not even be needed. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the rest of the paragraph or the Ecumenical Masters part of the article, and interrupts the flow. If you remove that sentence, I think the Leontius paragraph shoud be combined with the Patricius paragraph into a single paragraph. (We don't want a long list of very short paragraphs.)
Done -Eli+ 20:16, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The quality of the prose improves at the mention of Leontius, and the rest of the section is smoother and clearer.
  • The "Professorial body" section starts with a sentence that helps introduce and section. The "Notable students" section could use an introductory sentence that serves a similar function, so you're not thrown straight into Pamphilus. I'm not sure what it should say... perhaps something like "Most of the thousands of students who studied at the Law School of Beirut are not remembered by history, but many went on to achieve fame", but better than that. :)
right on -Eli+ 20:16, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "were more cognizable and of a superior style than" is a little clunky, and I'm not sure what a superior style would mean... perhaps "were more coherant and easily understood"?
Done ;) -Eli+ 22:36, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The second-to-last paragraph seems like it would be more at home in the "Notable students" section, rather than the "Legacy" section.
I dunno, it kinda introduces the later section and links the contributions of the teachers to the corpus and its later influence . Eli+ 22:36, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The structures of the Notes, References, and Bibliography sections are generally excellent.
  • Why are footnotes (a) and (b) not references?
I'm sorry i can't get hold of the full books for the two references and had to work with bits cited in other books and journals :S those two are ancient, would it make too much difference? I can always remove them in case there are other sources available, anyway let me know -Eli+ 23:26, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I performed spotchecks as of this revision, examining the sources for references 1, 7, 27, 38, 42, 49, and 55. In each case, the statement in the article was fully supported by the source text, and in no case was material copied verbatim in a inappropriate way. The sourcing seems great.
  • Would it be an improvement to move the long journal entries from References down to Bibliography? It would look better and be easier for the reader to follow, but I honestly don't know if it would be appropriate or not. (The word "Bibliography" seems to indicate books only, but Wikipedia:WikiProject Bibliographies#Recommended structure gives information on citing journals and reports, and besides, you already include an encyclopedia entry in Bibliography.)
Done -Eli+ 23:04, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Digest of Justinian should be moved from References to Bibliography, regardless, since it's a book. It would be a hassle to find page numbers in such a difficult source, but I suspect that can be omitted if necessary , since the original publication did not have page numbers. (It would be better to have page numbers of the Monro translation for each statement, but it isn't necessary for me to support this nomination.)
Done -Eli+ 23:04, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
OK -Eli+ 23:22, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The url parameter of {{cite book}} is only to be used for cases where the book is available to be read online. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lists of works says explicitly "A link to a Google Book should only be added if the book is available for preview." Most of the links to the book titles are fine, but the urls for Attridge, Jolowicz, Jones Hall, Pomeroy, Rawlinson, Sartre, and Sterk (if you'll excuse the serial comma) all link to the Lebanese version of Google Books, and the eBook is not available for these books, even in the English version. Therefore those URLs should be removed.
removed the ones without preview, others work fine -Eli+ 23:04, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There are still some issues with these links. Many of these link to the Lebanese version of Google Books (with navigation and such in Arabic script) even though the books themselves are in English. You should link to the English Google Books if you link to anything. At several of these (such as Jolowicz, Dumbarton Oaks, etc.), Google Books says "No ebook available". – Quadell (talk) 19:41, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
ok, you are right, the links are for the lebanese version, i didn't pay attention to that because I switched google settings to display the navigation in english... anyway i removed the .lb extention, the books should be easily browsable now. Although I don't think that Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lists of works guidleines are applicable for source citing (description says:"This style guideline aims to create a consistent method of displaying lists of works, such as lists of texts, discographies and filmographies." and I believe this is only applicable in articles where a list of works is required eg. for a literary figure or .. a film director...) but i have removed the links to books without previews and reviewed all my google books links; all of them link to "preview" or "full view" books. I think we are dealing with an issue of per location availability of content here. All books, including Jolowicz and Lokin's can be previewed. -Eli+ 06:43, 19 August 2013 (UTC) [reply]
  • "Dupondii" is helpfully translated. It would be informative to translate at least "Iustiniani novi" for the reader, and perhaps the other names for years of study as well.
  • The "Legacy" section implies that work done at Beirut helped shape the legal systems that would become Byzantine law and later Western law in general. In my opinion, this section should overtly mention and link to these concepts through prose.
Tried to keep it as concise as possible; going into too much detail is very problematic here. Eli+ 22:36, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I understand not wanting to get too detailed in this. But you already say "this academic movement gave rise to the minds behind Justinian's juridic reforms" and Dorotheus' and Anatolius' additions to the Codex of Justinian "profoundly impacted the modern legal system" and "had a great influence on the juridic history of western Europe and its American colonies". Much of the section basically says that work done at Beirut helped shape the legal systems that would become Byzantine law and later Western law in general; but the text isn't as clear about it as it could be, and doesn't link to the articles on those concepts. – Quadell (talk) 19:41, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No one can be certain of the extent of the two Beiruti professors' contributions in compiling the CJS but the fact that they were summoned all the way to constantinople and the words of praise which which justinian showered them indicates their stature and level of knowledge. The later paragraphs highlight the importance of the work (the CJS) which was partly drafted by men from the law school of Beirut. I can't make the connection any more apparent :( -Eli+ 12:19, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Please carefully note what my original issue is here, and how I worded it. "In my opinion, this section should overtly mention and link to these concepts through prose." That's something you can do if you choose. Arguably, the most important thing about the law school is its impact on later Byzantine law and Western law in general. The article pretty-much says this (it even calls Beirut the "mother of laws"!), but it doesn't mention either of these legal systems, and doesn't link to them. This is not just a minor nitpick; it would be like an article on Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria not mentioning or linking to World War I. – Quadell (talk) 12:31, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Please be patient with me, i will tend to this issue shortly. -Eli+ 12:51, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In regard to the top point above, I'd like to renew my objections to treating any form of reference to this institution as a proper noun unless we can confirm usage in a preponderance of sources, preferably those dating from the last thirty years. My impression is that there is no "alternate name", because there is no proper name in the first place. It's just referred to as the "school of Roman law" at Berytus or Beirut, or generally as the law school at Beirut. Since it's a common noun rather than a proper noun, we need to specify that it's a school of Roman law, and where it's located. But I can't find evidence that it's a proper noun. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:27, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
For the record, I have no opinion on whether "the law school of Beirut" or "The Law School of Beirut" is more appropriate. I just don't want the reader to be confused by references to Beirut vs. Berytus. – Quadell (talk) 19:32, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Many of my objections have not yet been resolved. – Quadell (talk) 22:09, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I was working on the article as you were typing your message Quadell, if there's anything else, please let me know -Eli+ 23:22, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am very close to supporting, but I would need the reference format improved and legacy section to be made more explicit. – Quadell (talk) 19:41, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Middling support. Eli+ has addressed my concerns, and I believe this article now passes our FA criteria. It's not as good as the best FAs, and there are still areas that could be improved. (Translating and Wikilinking could be more consistent, a few notes could be better as references, some of the prose still could be improved...) But none of these are fatal flaws, and FA status does not mean "cannot be improved". – Quadell (talk) 14:05, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delegate comments -- This article looks to have had a pretty thorough review but after six weeks the only declaration is a weak oppose. Unless I can see clear consensus to promote (or reject) the nomination in the next day or so, I'll have to archive as no consensus. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:09, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

More Comments from Ceranthor
Notable students
  • While most of the law school's students names are not remembered by history - This is a little ambiguous. Are the students themselves not remembered? Or is it just that there aren't great records of who attended which school?
this is a nitpick, i think it's pretty obvious -Eli+ 12:19, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • and who went on to achieve fame - I don't know if this is used elsewhere in this article, but using "went on" or "goes on" always ends up making a phrase redundant. Just use later achieved fame; it's so much cleaner, always.
OK -Eli+ 12:19, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pamphilus later became the presbyter of Caesarea Maritima - Not sure if this is linked earlier in the article, but if it isn't, could you link it here for people like me who aren't immediately familiar with what a presbyter is?
OK -Eli+ 12:19, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • and founder of its extensive Christian library. - Since you used a the for presbyter, it only makes sense to keep parallel structure and use a the for founder too.
OK -Eli+ 12:19, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Libanius' correspondence with Gaianus of Tyre discusses the latter's achievements after his graduation from the law school of Beirut. Gaianus became the consular governor of Phoenicia in 362.[49] - A semicolon would better combine these two sentences.
OK -Eli+ 12:19, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Location
  • "whose career was consecrated for the study of law". - Citation?
OK -Eli+ 12:19, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Legacy
  • were more clearer - more clear
OK -Eli+ 12:19, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • and of a more coherent - more coherent what? missing a word here.
OK -Eli+ 12:19, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • found what they needed at the time.” [69] - The reference for 69 skips a line. There must be an extra space here or this would not happen. It has to be fixed; it's hard to look at.
OK -Eli+ 12:19, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • with the Christian values - No "the" needed.
OK -Eli+ 12:19, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Leo’s work was written in Greek since Latin had fallen into disuse and its provisions - Comma after disuse.
OK -Eli+ 12:19, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • emperor Basil I's issued Why the apostrophe s?
That's what happens when you write a phrase over and over because there's always someone who doesn't like the way it's put together -Eli+ 12:19, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1913, Paul Huvelin the first dean of the newly established Université Saint-Joseph's Faculty of Law, - Appositive needs a comma after Huvelin.
OK -Eli+ 12:19, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
General
  • Keep it consistent. Either "fifth century" or "5th-century". Don't alternate; make sure you fix any mix-ups. There are a couple throughout the article.
OK -Eli+ 12:19, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this is quite ready to be promoted just yet. It is close, though, so I recommend getting a PR, using a good copyeditor (look through current FAC reviews for people who do prose commentary!!!), and bringing it back soon. I also left out my serial comma comments for this round, because at this point I'm confused as to what preference (with serial comma or without) you've chosen. The legacy section needs a decent amount of copyediting because it seems pretty choppy. Overall, wonderful article and stellar work. I look forward to seeing it at FAC again. ceranthor 02:09, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Can't wait -Eli+ 12:19, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 12 November 2013 (UTC) [30].[reply]

Nefarious: Merchant of Souls

Nominator(s): Neelix (talk) 03:35, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because it has received a copyedit from a member of the Guild of Copyeditors, it has passed a good article nomination, and I believe that it meets the featured article criteria. Neelix (talk) 03:35, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

You are correct. I have replaced the licence tag on that image. Neelix (talk) 18:10, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • SUPPORT - I found this to be an interesting and informative read. With specific attention to the FA criteria, this is a well-written compelling article, relying on a wide variety of consistently-formatted reliable sources that support comprehensive coverage of the subject. I don't detect any shortcomings in the article's breadth, and find its structure in keeping within the guidelines of the MOS and other relevant policies. The article is presented without any concerns regarding neutralty or stability. I have not checked the images myself, but being familiar with Neelix's other work, deferring to Nikkimaria's keen eye in image reviews (which appears above), and that the article has gone through a copy-edit and GA prior to FAC, I am confident that the images are likely sufficiently tagged, and previously cleared. --ColonelHenry (talk) 16:57, 10 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments - Nothing oppose worthy. Some comments though -
    • The caption to File:9.000919 Pattaya streetscene5.jpg suggests it is a scene from the film.
    • I think it needs to be made explicit that Movieguide is a site "dedicated to redeeming the values of the entertainment industry, according to biblical principles" and not a generalist movie site. While this perspective may be immediately obvious from publications such as Godculture Magazine, it's not so for Movieguide.
    • Can you comment on the reliability of Godculture Magazine and The Phantom Tollbooth?
    • What is You Are Beautiful: A Journey of Discovery used to source? If it's just that Nolot is the founder and president of Exodus Cry, can't you just use a primary source instead?
    • Be explicit that The Rome International Film Festival is in Rome, Georgia to remove confusion between it and the International Rome Film Festival.
Thank you for your comments. I have clarified that the Pattaya photograph is not a scene from the film, made explicit the nature of Movieguide, replaced the You Are Beautiful source with a primary source, and specified that The Rome International Film Festival is in Rome, Georgia. I believe that Godculture Magazine and The Phantom Tollbooth are both reliable sources; both magazines have writers and editors on staff to ensure journalistic integrity. If you have specific concerns regarding these sources, I would be glad to look into them for you. Neelix (talk) 18:41, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The article is very well-written and appears to meet FA criteria. There's just one thing that I think is a little strange: the "Contents" section makes reference to "groups of girls who appear to range in age from early to late teens offering sexual services to customers, many of whom are middle-aged, white Western men". I watched the documentary a week ago and don't recall there being any specific attention drawn to the clients' ethnicities or countries of origin, so this seems more like a personal observation than one made by the producers. --1ST7 (talk) 06:42, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your support and comments. I have removed the final clause from the sentence you mention. Neelix (talk) 02:27, 15 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Some problems can be fixed easily: the quotations without sources; prose such as "in the spring of 2012, on May 1".
On criterion 1a. From first para of "Contents"... "implicitly naked" (what does "implicitly" mean here?); "One girl is seen to be dragged" (why "seen to be"?); "The girls are then brutally abused" (isn't what has happened up to then brutal? What is the brutal bit? Is this happening to the people remaining in the room after one has been taken out?); "markets in Berlin" (what kind of markets?); "Among legal prostitution in cities, the slavery goes unnoticed" (should be "amidst"? Why is it classed as slavery? This is the first main text mention of "slave"). There is also the contradiction of "The first scene of the film is a re-enactment of a kidnapping" with "The film starts with the assertion that slavery has not been abolished" in "Analysis".
I question the use of "girls" throughout – are they women (as defined by laws) or girls? How is the reader to distinguish when "girls" refers to those under a certain age?
The problem that cannot be fixed with ease is the structure. The first section is "Contents". Next is "Production", with the sub-heading "Interviews". Interviews describes more content, so is not about production. Inevitably, there is repetition across the sections. Some parts appear to be unconnected to the surrounding text; for instance: "Before Nefarious was completed, one of the former prostitutes interviewed for the film returned to prostitution" is in "Filming"; and "Kevin Bales of Free the Slaves argues that there are 27 million slaves in the world" isn't connected to anything. "Analysis" begins with a description of what the film is about; as this is after whole sections describing the film, most of it could go in an introductory section.
The smaller things (as in the criterion 1a bit above, on one para) could be fixed, but could take a long time. However, the structure – of both the article as a whole and within sections of it – needs a rethink before desired levels of cohesion and coherence are reached. EddieHugh (talk) 11:44, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for voicing your concerns. I have added supplementary citations directly after every citation, reworded some of the prose for clarity, removed the words "seen to be", specified that the markets being referred to are sex markets, switched "among" to "amidst", clarified that people who are kidnapped and then forced into labour are slaves, and clarified that the starting assertion does not take place at the very beginning of the film. I have also restructured the article by moving the "Interviews" subsection to the "Contents" section, moving the "Analysis" section to the beginning and renaming it "Themes", moving the statement about the interviewee to the "Interviews" subsection, and clarifying that Kevin Bales appears in the film. The words "girls" and "women" both appear in the article in different contexts, although most of the human trafficking victims dealt with in the film (particularly in Southeast Asia and Eastern Europe) are too young to be considered adults, so the word "girls" appears most commonly. I believe that the correct word is used in each case, but I would be glad to look further into any particular instance you find problematic. Are there any remaining structural, prosaic, or other issues you would like me to address? Neelix (talk) 23:45, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I just realized that I didn't address your question about the statement "implicitly naked". This was the solution reached on the article's talk page to the seeming contradiction between there being no nudity in the film despite the film starting by depicting a group of naked girls. It is clear that they are naked, but there are no breasts or pelvic areas shown on-screen. If you can think of a clearer way of phrasing this, I am open to recommendations. Neelix (talk) 23:58, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think the phrasing used right now is fine; there isn't really a better alternative, as simply describing them as naked would seem contradictory to the text that says that the documentary contains no nudity. As a side note, I noticed that the "Re-enactments and live footage" section describes the events in the opening scene as taking place "in a small European town, possibly in Moldova", but the trafficking victim narrating the incident says it was an apartment building near Belgrade, Serbia (seen here). Can this please be fixed? --1ST7 (talk) 05:30, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for pointing out the location error; I have corrected this statement and moved the information about Moldova to the "Themes" section. Neelix (talk) 14:52, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the changes: I think that the structure is much more logical now. "ordered to remove their clothes" instead of "implicitly naked"? Remove contractions ("didn't").... Having followed up some of the sources, my major concern comes from a combination of the niche nature of the topic (a Christian documentary) and time since it was released. Specifically, in relation to the FA criteria: 1b) "places the subject in context" – how does Nefarious compare with other documentaries, etc. on the same topic (from a Christian perspective and any other)? To what extent has this topic been explored on film previously? 1c) This is tricky, because almost all of the lit cited is faith-based, so has an interest in being positive about the film. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable about WP policy on this could step in with a more informed comment, perhaps on interpreting WP: BIASED. I am definitely wary of the implicit level of assumption about the film's claims being accurate. E.g., para 3 of "Themes" runs through lots of 'facts', which are sourced from reviews of the film citing the film. Take the CIA assertion... the source has "the third largest industry"; nj.com has "one of the largest criminal industries in the world — second only to drugs": industry or illegal industry? Simply adding "the film states that" or similar is not, in my opinion, sufficient for 1c or 1d. This leads to a combination of 1b, 1c and 1d objections: if the currently available sources are likely to view it favourably and repeat its assertions, and the film has been out for 2 years on a very limited release that is ongoing (according to its website), waiting for more independent sources to appear seems sensible before it can be claimed that the article "exemplifies our very best work and is distinguished by professional standards". This is not a criticism of the proposer or others, but a suggestion that the required standard may be unattainable at the moment. EddieHugh (talk) 15:40, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am glad that you approve of the new structure. I have reworded the statement about nudity, and have replaced the contractions. I have also added a Fox News article that cites the CIA statistic to confirm its accuracy. Please let me know if you have concerns about any of the other statistics cited in articles reviewing the film. Considering that the film was released two years ago, I think it unlikely that many additional non-faith-based sources are going to publish new reviews of the film. The contextual and non-faith-based reviews you are looking for seem unlikely to ever exist, although the film has received a variety of awards from non-faith-based film festivals, and these are documented in the article. I am under the impression that FA criteria 1 b-d are satisfied if the existing sources on the subject are exhaustively employed; that has been my experience with past FAs, such as with Kellie Loder and When God Writes Your Love Story. Perhaps your experience has been different than mine. Have you seen articles prevented from FA promotion because of a lack of existing sources providing an alternate perspective? Neelix (talk) 17:52, 20 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'd do go for all of the facts in that section. The two sources on the CIA do not really match: one has "human trafficking"; the other has "the sale of women". Taking the criteria literally, exhausting the sources is sufficient, but that is what I question, as the neutrality of those sources (as well as how well the topic can be covered by them) is debatable; so I asked for input from others. With the two you mention... Loder is clearly described as a "Contemporary Christian" musician, so I wouldn't expect much comment on her outside that area; WGWYLS is, I argue, a) a Christian book that is b) about love/relationships, so again I would not expect many sources from outside the Christian market. Nefarious, I suggest, is (or is presented as being) a) a film about trafficking that b) also incorporates a Christian angle. I would, therefore, expect to see more of what I mentioned in my previous post. EddieHugh (talk) 21:13, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have contacted Exodus Cry, the film's distributor, asking them if they would send me the citation information for the primary sources for the statistics included in the "Themes" section of the article. I have also requested that they let me know of any reviews of the film that are not already included in the article. At present, there are just as many secular reviews in the article's "Critical response" section as there are faith-based reviews; there are four secular reviews (Indian Life Newspaper, The News of Cumberland County, South China Morning Post, and The Review) and four faith-based reviews (Charisma, Movieguide, The Phantom Tollbooth, and Godculture Magazine). If you know of any more reviews of the film, I would be glad to include them; I am running out of places to look. Neelix (talk) 01:53, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have found primary sources for all but one of the statistics quoted from other organizations in the "Themes" section, and have added them to the article. The remaining statistic (the CIA one you mention) I have removed from the article until such point that the CIA primary source is discovered. I have scraped the bottom of the barrel of Google and have turned up five additional sources, which I have added to the article. Two of these (Star News Daily and News Weekly) are secular reviews which have been added to the "Critical response" section. I have searched through several journal databases through my local library and have turned up no new sources. A librarian helped me search, and told me that there are likely no other reviews to find. Please let me know if you feel that there is anything further that I can do to improve the article. Neelix (talk) 19:04, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Neelix asked me for my thoughts (as I had supported the article earlier above) on your comments, Eddie, and I responded to him on my talk page. He asked if I'd copy them here. A couple of points:

  • The fact is that documentaries usually don't get much attention by film critics or reviewers. If there are no negative film reviews, citing positive reviews is not giving undue weight to positive reviews. By analogue: It's not undue weight to say the sky is blue during the day just because no source exists that says "it's green." See WP:RSUW.
  • If there are no negative reviews, then it is such criticism a non-existent viewpoint. There's no obligation to talk about negative criticism--in this case, that would violate WP:UNDUE by giving a platform to a viewpoint that doesn't exist.
  • If there's no source comparing it to other documentaries, there's no source. To start comparing it to other documentaries without sources making those comparisons would likely violate original research
  • This is about the one movie that is the subject of the article, while you can mention comparison to other films (if such discussion is supported by sources), however, it has to be kept within scope so as to not divert focus from the article's subject.
  • If you've covered all that's available about it, and there are no other sources that offer new angles or different angles, then it generally meets the 1b (comprehensive) and 1c (and representative survey of the relevant literature) criteria. You can't neglect a viewpoint if it doesn't exist. (again, WP:RSUW). If a viewpoint doesn't exist, 1b and 1c can't be held against you for not covering it.

Just a few thoughts.--ColonelHenry (talk) 18:55, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments. I don't disagree. Reducing to the absurd, if there were a tiny number of limited sources, a very short (but complete to the extent possible) article on any topic could be created. It would not become a FA (I'd hope). There is, therefore, a point at which the availability of source material limits how far an article can go in the grading system. The question here is whether or not Nefarious can reach FA quality using the sources available. In my opinion, as all sources have been used, it cannot. I'm happy to be contradicted / outvoted / outranked on this, but my opinion remains. EddieHugh (talk) 10:05, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate your added clarification. My impression is that the point at which the limited availability of source material prevents an article from being featured is the same point at which such limited availability prevents an article from meeting the notability guidelines; a subject about which there does not exist a sufficient amount of sources to create a featured article does not merit an article at all. Neelix (talk) 17:18, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I respectfully disagree with the opinion that the sources are insufficient. The article's coverage appears comprehensive and includes both secular and faith-based sources. --1ST7 (talk) 23:53, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I've read over the above exchange and revsited the article again. It appears that Neelix (talk · contribs) has indeed made a good faith effort to do his due diligence with regards to sourcing, and made sure to do his best with regards to exaustively using the majority of available secondary sources out there. The Accolades section appears to complement this and seems quite comprehensive and well-sourced, as well. I hope this reassessment was helpful, — Cirt (talk) 00:32, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review from Cliftonian

Support. I have given this a fresh read-through and I now feel comfortable backing for FA. Well done Neelix. —Cliftonian (talk) 14:50, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from —Cliftonian (talk) 14:50, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I will copyedit and post comments as I go through this. A few initial comments:
  • In "Themes", we say the film is presented from a Christian worldview, then mention that the movie has scantily dressed women, smoking and drinking in it. I don't quite understand why we mention the smoking—Paul mentions in his letters that Christians should dress modestly and avoid drunkenness, but there's nothing about smoking. How about "although there are scenes showing alcohol consumption and women wearing skimpy clothing."
  • Make clear that the "dollars" we're talking about are US dollars (I presume that's what they are)
  • Maybe split the second paragraph of the "Contents" section at "In another scene, Nolot interviews a Dutch pimp named "Slim"".
  • Maybe put "Who identifies himself as "Slim"", or similar
  • A lot of the captions are very similar to sections of the body; maybe mix it up a little for variety.
  • Move the picture of Laila Mickelwait down below the level 3 header "Official release"
  • Split the critical response into two paragraphs

I'll come back later and put more, and go on copyediting and so on. Well done so far. —Cliftonian (talk) 11:23, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your copyediting and suggestions. I have reworded the sentences in the "Themes" and "Contents" sections you indicate, implemented the US$ template, split up the paragraphs in the "Contents" and "Critical response" sections you indicate, reworded the image captions to differ from the body text, and moved the image of Mickelwait. I look forward to your additional comments. Neelix (talk) 14:55, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Nefarious: Merchant of Souls is a 2011 American documentary film about modern human trafficking, specifically sexual slavery, and explores the factors that contribute to it." This sentence doesn't make grammatical sense because of the last clause (and explores ...). Consider taking it away—I don't think it really adds anything.
  • "Information is presented from a Christian worldview. Nefarious covers human trafficking in the United States, Eastern Europe, Western Europe, and Southeast Asia. Interviews are alternated with re-enactments." Try "Presented from a Christian worldview, Nefarious covers human trafficking in the United States, Western and Western Europe, and Southeast Asia, alternating interviews with re-enactments".
  • The list of named interviewees in the middle of the first paragraph seems rather large and intrusive. Do you think it could be moved down to the second or third paragraph, perhaps, so the opening paragraph will be more crisp and concise? I think the start of the third paragraph might be a good place for this.
  • "Former victims" Why not "Victims of trafficking"? Make clear what they're victims of, and also I'm not sure "former" is needed. Perhaps change "about being the object of" to "about having been the objects of"
  • "and going on to do schooling or to get married" Perhaps "and moving on towards education or marriage"
  • "to 19 different countries" the word "different" is superfluous
  • "can be doing..." the ellipses should be spaced with a non-breaking space ("doing ...")
  • "Nefarious was released on home video on May 1, 2012." perhaps move this to the end of the second paragraph and change to "the film was released ..." as it is clear which film we are talking about
  • "in several different countries" see above
  • "analogous to" perhaps "similar to"
  • "that criminalizes" should be ", which criminalizes" (with a comma before "which"), as we are talking about a particular Swedish law rather than one of several
  • "Nefarious won" → "Nefarious has won"
  • In "Themes" maybe split the second paragraph at "It is suggested in Nefarious that there is a link ..."

More soon, hope this helps —Cliftonian (talk) 16:45, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your additional recommendations. I have reworded the sentences you indicate, moved the list of named interviewees to the beginning of the third paragraph of the lead, reformatted the ellipses, moved the statement about the home video release date to the end of that paragraph, and split the paragraph you indicate in two. I look forward to your further comments. Neelix (talk) 17:46, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Lead
  • "Nefarious was written, directed, produced, and narrated by Benjamin Nolot, founder and president of Exodus Cry, the film's distributor. Nolot, a leader in Mike Bickle's International House of Prayer, travelled to 19 countries to collect the film's content. Nolot said that the purpose of the film is "to draw people's attention to the issue, but also to inspire them in terms of what they can be doing ... to take a stand against this injustice.""
  • On review I think this bit might be better thus: "Nefarious was written, directed, produced and narrated by Benjamin Nolot, a leader in Mike Bickle's International House of Prayer]] and founder and president of Exodus Cry, the film's distributor. Nolot, who travelled to 19 countries to collect the film's content, said that the purpose of the film is "to draw people's attention to the issue, but also to inspire them in terms of what they can be doing ... to take a stand against this injustice.""
  • "The film was officially released on July 27, 2011, and individual screenings also began in various places through grassroots marketing"
  • Try "The film was officially released on July 27, 2011, with individual grassroots screenings also taking place".
  • "to convince governments to"
  • "Convince" should only be used in the form "convince that"—"convince to" isn't correct, but "persuade to" is. Recommend change to "to persuade governments to"
  • "wrote that it was amazing that the film covered an inherently sexual topic both honestly and without nudity"
  • Try "commented that the film covered the inherently sexual subject matter candidly without featuring nudity".
  • "and wrote that the film's narrative and structure are both apparent" er, what? Perhaps rephrase. I don't understand what is meant here.
Themes
  • "suggests that what victims have in common around the world is that they are enslaved both psychologically and emotionally"
  • Try "suggests that all the victims are both psychologically and emotionally enslaved".
  • "It is suggested in Nefarious that there is a link"
  • Try the simpler "Nefarious asserts that there is a link"
  • "many in Cambodia preparing their daughters to be sold as prostitutes in order to pay for luxury goods"
  • Try "with many in Cambodia knowingly selling their daughters into prostitution to pay for luxury goods"
  • "Nefarious depicts Las Vegas prostitutes as entering the sex industry in pursuit of a glamorous lifestyle, and most sex trafficking in Europe as resulting from child abandonment and orphanages"
  • Why not comment that the film is contrasting the two? "Nefarious contrasts Las Vegas prostitutes with victims of sex trafficking in Europe, depicting the former as drawn into the sex industry by dreams of a glamorous lifestyle, and the latter as young people made vulnerable by child abandonment and orphanages"
  • The bulk of the last paragraph of this section is very repetitive. "x asserts ... y asserts ..." Try:
  • The film presents human trafficking statistics and assertions from a variety of sources, prominently departments of the United States government and the United Nations. These include that human trafficking is growing faster than any other criminal industry, that the average age of those forced into prostitution in the U.S. is 13, that the commercial sexual exploitation of children victimizes almost two million children globally, that 80% of trafficked women and 50% of trafficked children are sexually exploited, that 161 UN member states engage in human trafficking, and that modern slavery has an annual revenue of US$32,000,000,000—according to the film, higher than the annual revenues of Major League Baseball, the National Basketball Association, the National Football League and the National Hockey League combined."
  • Blaire Pilkington, Exodus Cry's Director of Intervention, stated that the film indicates that "trafficking is an exploitation of vulnerability" and expressed the need to "take away the stigma that [prostitutes] choose to be there."
  • "States" or "stated"? Is this statement in the movie or not?
Content—Re-enactments and live footage
  • "The photograph above was taken by the United States Department of State and depicts a similar situation." Try "This photograph, taken by the U.S. Department of State, depicts a similar situation."
  • I will copyedit the prose here directly, I hope you don't mind
Content—Interviews
  • I'm not sure what the second picture here adds if I'm honest.
  • I will also look over the prose here directly
  • "keep a hand close to the panic button" is this a quote? I assume this is figurative, or is there actually a panic button next to the mattress?
  • "Before Nefarious was completed, one of the former prostitutes interviewed for the film returned to prostitution." Is this in the movie, or is this just a comment on it? Clarify please

That's all for now, hope this helps. I will continue this review another time —Cliftonian (talk) 16:57, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you again for your helpful suggestions and copyedits. I have reworded the phrases you indicate, removed the statement about narrative, replaced the second image in the "Interviews" section with something more suitable, clarified that there is an actual panic button next to the mattress, and clarified that the fact that one of the former prostitutes returned to prostitution is included in the film. Neelix (talk) 20:03, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
John, are you still planning on returning to this review? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk)
Yes, thanks for the nudge; finishing now —Cliftonian (talk) 06:18, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Production
  • "an issue he feels very strongly about and which he feels to be of importance" Feel this is overkill, why not "an issue that he feels to be of great importance"
  • "Actors in these re-enactment scenes included ..." The list of names that follows here lacks an "and" before the last name
  • "As of January 2012, two sequels to the film were in production" By Nolot or other people?
Release
  • "... with one of the city's police officers" Why not just "with a local police officer"
  • "Red Light Campaign in which drivers pray for sex trafficking to end while they wait at red traffic lights" Try "Red Light Campaign, wherein drivers waiting at red lights pray for sex trafficking to end"
  • "agreed to attend" Why not just "attended"
  • "The Summit Church" Do we know the town?
  • "Nefarious was released on home video on May 1, 2012" In the U.S., North America or worldwide?
  • "its United Kingdom premiere" Sounds awkward, I would go with "UK premiere" or "British premiere"
  • "Following this screening," I would replace this with "following which" and merge it into the last sentence
  • "In November" Try "Two months later" to cut down on repetition; perhaps also move it to the end of the sentence
  • "solicited funds for halfway houses called LightHouses that it runs for former sex trafficking victims" Try "solicited funds for the halfway houses it runs in Moldova, LightHouses, where victims of sex trafficking are helped to recover." Or similar
Reception
  • Made some ce here

That's all, I think. I hope this helps. Now leaning to support. —Cliftonian (talk) 06:18, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for providing such a thorough review! I have reworded the phrases you indicate, clarified that Nolot is producing the sequels, and specified the location of The Summit Church. The source for the home release date doesn't specify the geographical extent of the release. Please let me know if you have any additional concerns. Neelix (talk) 06:14, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • A couple of spelling points: "fraudulant" may for all I know be a permissible spelling in US dictionaries, but I have only ever seen it as "fraudulent". And "materialises" looks strange in an article that otherwise uses "–ize" spellings.
  • There are many blue links that seem to me to come under the heading of WP:OVERLINK, for example, "attempted murder", "converting to Christianity", "grassroots", "home video", "profanity", "nudity", "slavery", "abolished", "political corruption", "complicity", "luxury goods", "glamorous", "child abandonment", "orphanages", "kidnapped", "organized criminals", "hard drugs", "mind control", "sexual and physical abuse", "soft light", "physically abusing", "threatening" … and so on and on and on. Some, such as "luxury goods" are even linked more than once. As the Manual of Style says, "Ask yourself, 'How likely is it that the reader will also want to read that other article?'", and in the case of, e.g., "raising awareness", "prayer meeting", "filming locations", "social issues" et hoc genus omne the answer surely is, "Not at all". The MoS very rightly observes, "Excessive use of hyperlinks can be distracting, and may slow the reader down".

Hope these points are useful. – Tim riley (talk) 10:31, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your comments. I have corrected the spelling of the words you indicate and have reduced the overlinking in the article, removing the links you list as well as others. I have also used a tool to ensure that there are no duplicate links in the article. Please let me know if you have any additional concerns regarding the article. Neelix (talk) 20:15, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support – This is a shorter article than one is used to seeing at FAC (and none the worse for that after some of the interminable articles about, e.g., Bollywood films we have had up for FA) but as far as I can see it covers all relevant points adequately, and it is in good prose, has no conspicuous bias and is well illustrated and referenced. It seems to me to meet the FA criteria. Tim riley (talk) 21:15, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note -- I realise a good deal of discussion has gone on re. breadth and quality of sourcing but I don't think I've seen a source review for formatting, so will request one at WT:FAC. On the subject of sourcing, I've read Eddie's comments with interest, but I think several other reviewers have provided arguments that rebut the concerns raised. I will however await the source review and any further comments from Cliftonian before considering promotion. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:15, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source check

The references all seem to be formatted correctly. All names are formatted as "Firstname Lastname", all dates are formatted the same way, templates are used to prevent many problems, and I see no spacing or punctuation errors. My five spotchecks reveal the statements fully supported without plagiarism. – Quadell (talk) 19:16, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 9 November 2013 (UTC) [31].[reply]

Maurice Leyland

Nominator(s): Sarastro1 (talk) 19:21, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Maurice Leyland was a Yorkshire cricketer in the 1920s and 1930s. A rather unglamorous, but very well-loved figure, he was at his best against the toughest opponents. Atypically for a Yorkshire cricket from this period (no comments on this please, Mr Riley!), he was a cheerful and humorous chap. I've been working on this article since January, and since March it has been a GA. It received an excellent PR from Tintin1107, Crisco 1492, Tim riley, Cassianto, Sahara4u, Giants2008 and Brianboulton. Any further comments are gratefully received. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:21, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support – All my comments were addressed at the peer review, and I am very happy to pledge my support. Another fantastic effort by the nominator, himself a flawless player in the field of cricket articles (pun, me, never!). -- CassiantoTalk 19:44, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your earlier comments, your kind words and your support. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:56, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – Once again Sarastro1 conjures a thoroughly satisfying, highly readable article from the facts of a cricketer's life and career. Such a thing could so easily be a dull list of facts and statistics, but, as with Sarastro's earlier subjects, the reader gets a real sense of the man and his deeds. The prose is a pleasure, the research and referencing top-notch, the images well chosen and the balance and proportions of the article judicious. The article was in fine shape at PR and is even finer now. This is plainly of FA quality IMO. – Tim riley (talk) 21:39, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the kind words, your help at the PR, and your support. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:59, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your work at PR, and for your support. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:49, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – The story I have to tell is the same as the prior reviewers. I commented (briefly) at the PR, was impressed with the article when I read it, and firmly believe that it meets the standards. Giants2008 (Talk) 02:06, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your support. Sarastro1 (talk) 10:21, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image check - all OK (PD-Australia, PD-1996). Souces and known authors provided.

Thanks for the image check. That link came from the Trove site, which has it's own reference-for-wikipedia thing, and I was too lazy to change it! Sarastro1 (talk) 14:12, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the above supports. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:36, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • Doesn't the lead, the first paragraph especially, get bogged down by figures—runs, averages and years? Also, I think any reader who's here for the stats heads straight for the infobox, where he can get them more succinctly. So these may be pointless here.
  • Even after I feel that there are too many specific years. For eg: "debut in 1920, and appeared intermittently in 1921 and 1922" → "debut in 1920, and appeared intermittently over the next couple of years" and so on.
  • Infobox: "Bowling style: Slow left-arm orthodox." Huh?
  • Mention that he was a leftie.
  • "He scored over 1,000" → needs to connect with previous. "He returned to form..." for eg.
  • "batting well under pressure... thrived when the team depended upon him"—same thing? Then club aesthetic... to the first sentence itself.
  • "registered at birth as Morris Leyland,[notes 1]"—not a fan of this. Morris is used literally nowhere in the article. I think you remove both text and note, just have the note's text as a sentence in Early life and career.
  • You should promote the sub-sections to full section status (and get rid of "Test match cricketer").
  • Move Later life to before Style. Then you keep the historical sections together, and end on a positive note.
  • Word overuse: "effective" in Style. "described how he faced an over from O'Reilly, as described"
  • Paras that need splitting: Peak 1 and 4; Style 3.
  • Add pics of people who pop up frequently—O'Reilly for eg.
  • O'Reilly is the obvious one, but despite its presence in a FA, and its location of Commons, I have grave doubts that the image of O'Reilly in our article is really PD. Similar for anyone else whose name crops up a few times. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:36, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Also, "Almacack".122.164.232.131 (talk) 18:36, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. I think I've either changed or responded to all of them. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:36, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review A couple of very small points:

  • "Online edition" repeated in Ref 1
  • Ref 97 (Peebles) needs a page number

Otherwise, all sources look of reliable quality and correctly formatted. Brianboulton (talk) 22:00, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the source review. Sarastro1 (talk) 00:14, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: I had plenty to say at the peer review, and my points were adequately answered. The only additional suggestion I have now is that you could avoid repeating the word "played" in the first line of the lead by saying that "he appeared for Yorkshire". Up to you. This is a cricketing biography of a standard that we have come to expect, and I am more than happy to support its promotion. Brianboulton (talk) 22:00, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support (having stumbled here from my FAC). Appropriately sized intro sect per WP:LEAD. Good use of images throughout. Appropriate organizational structure, progresses nicely in chronological format for the reader. I like the style of presentation used for citations and references. As a side note I must remark that I am quite impressed at the level of participation and number of those involved both here at the FAC and previously at the article's Peer Review! FAC nominator, you must share your secrets on how you get such valuable input from other high-quality contributors! ;) Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 03:55, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Final comments from Indopug
  • "each English season between 1923 and 1939" the exact years aren't important IMO. Change to "16/17 consecutive seasons"?
  • Infobox: avoid all confusion and contradiction by making it the broader "Left arm spin"?
  • "In first-class cricket, he represented Yorkshire"--technically only county cricket right? In FCC he represented both Eng and Yorkshire. (Unless this is standard usage)
  • Did he die in Scotton (infobox) or Knaresborough (Later life)?
  • Pics: Cardus? You could add another quote in the caption then . . .
  • Bibliography: book titles have inconsistent capitalisation?
  • "He hit two sixes in one over"--amazing that this was once a notable achievement. (made me recall the awful just-concluded Ind v Aus series).

122.164.155.143 (talk) 14:55, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And support Not often you see "expostulated" right next to "tha must remember that Ah'm playing for me place in team". Well done.122.164.155.143 (talk) 14:55, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments and support. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:37, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 9 November 2013 (UTC) [32].[reply]

Operation Crossroads

Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (talk) 09:58, 8 October 2013 (UTC) and HowardMorland (talk)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... Operation Crossroads was the first series of nuclear tests conducted in the Pacific. Although mostly remembered for a bathing suit, it is still the best known nuclear test after Trinity. Hawkeye7 (talk) 09:58, 8 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review by Quadell

This is a massive article about a massively important topic. I hope to find time fully review it in the next week. Until then, I'll just give these drive-by issues. Review is ongoing.

Resolved issues
  • The final sentence (under "Legacy") has some problems. (1) When a semicolon joins independent clauses, everything after the semicolon should act as a complete sentence. (2) It would be helpful if each quote had its own citation. Currently they're together, and in reverse order. (3) It isn't clear what the text means by "coincidence", since the bikini was purposefully named after the test. I think it means that both explanations could be true, but there are better ways to put it. (4) Notwithstanding the previous point, "coincidence" is a common word and should not be linked. (5) "Perhaps" doesn't fit will grammatically, and I think it's acting as a weasel-word here. (6) It isn't immediately clear how "atom bombs reduce everybody to primitive costume". The source clarifies by discussing both half-naked islanders and people emerging from a bomb blast with torn clothes; either choice is amazingly distasteful, though that's not the article's fault. And (7) I personally think it would be useful to link "bikini swimwear"; it's previously linked way up in the nicknames section, but that's a long way back. – Quadell (talk) 18:32, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I've re-worked the paragraph. For bad taste, the atomic explosion cake is hard to beat, but the fashion designers did their best. Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:12, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consider the clause "Although there are claims that participants in the Operation Crossroads tests were well protected against radiation sickness". To aviod weasel words, consider rewriting it as "Although planners attempted to protect participants in the Operation Crossroads tests against radiation sickness". (There clearly were attempts, and some protective measures. But the article doesn't describe any claim that they were "well" protected.)
    Sounds good. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:16, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm really impressed with the comprehensiveness of this article, with the sourcing, and with the prose. If I identify a lot of prose issues, it's only because there's a lot of prose to check; most of it is great, and some of it is brilliant. Still, the sentence in the background section that begins "Commodore William S. 'Deak' Parsons" is too long and winding to be easily understood at the first reading. It should be split somehow.
    Split the sentence. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:18, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not 100% sure how military titles are handled grammatically, so help me out here. Is this clause correct? "...by the Commander in Chief, United States Fleet, Fleet Admiral Ernest King at a press conference." Are there missing prepositions, or maybe a comma needed after Ernest King? I'm honestly not sure, but it looks funny to me.
    Comma needed after "King". But I've re-worded the sentence instead. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:18, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consider this sentence in the opposition section: "Manhattan Project scientists who had argued for a public test of the bomb in lieu of dropping it on a Japanese city now argued that further testing was unnecessary and environmentally dangerous." That sounds a bit like a "gotcha" to me, and smacks of bias (whether intentional or unintentional), as if the reader is supposed to think "Can't those scientist-protesters make up their minds?" I don't think it's fair to lead the witness in this way. Personally, I would reword it is "Several Manhattan Project scientists argued that, since the affects of nuclear bomb had been seen studied after their use in World War II, further testing was unnecessary and environmentally dangerous."
    Agreed. These are two very different things. I think that people sometimes forget that that there was a difference between conducting Trinity in wartime, when people were taking risks and dying every day, and a peacetime test like Crossroads. Crossroads did raise a considerable doubts that a demonstration in 1945 would have had any effect on the Japanese, but this was anyone's guess in 1945. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:18, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • A few sentences down, in the phrase "When they complained that...", it isn't clear who "they" are. The phrasing adds to the perception that all opponents of the tests are being lumped together as "complainers". I think it could be better worded as "When objections arose that..."
    Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:18, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the word "destruction" would be more apt than "carnage" in "The main cause of less-than-expected ship carnage". "Carnage" almost always refers specifically to death and gore.
    Done. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:18, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would break up the sentence beginning "Many of the closer ships received", and the sentence beginning "Although the Able bomb missed its target" (both in Abel's "Radiation" section).
    Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:41, 15 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The caption of Baker's target array lists the depths of two of submarines that sank: the Pilotfish and the Apogon. But it doesn't list the depth of the third submarine that sank: the Skipjack.
    Added. Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:41, 15 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consider this caption. "The Wilson cloud lifts, revealing a vertical black object, larger than ships in the foreground, which most observers believed was the upended battleship Arkansas. Blandy said it was smoke." It's true that Blandy said it was smoke, but Blandy also said radiation death is not painful. James Delgado (a much more credible commenter) says it was a rainshadow of sorts. I think the caption should be revised to something like the following, with the citation modified accordingly.
The Wilson cloud lifts, revealing a vertical black object, larger than ships in the foreground. Most observers believed this to be the upended battleship Arkansas, but other explanations have been offered.
I think "most observers" covers it. Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:41, 15 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine. – Quadell (talk) 12:27, 15 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The prose says that Gilda (Able) missed her target by 710 yards. But the caption for Able's target array says the "intended bullseye" was the Nevada, and the chart says that Nevada was 615 yards from zero. Where did the other 95 yards go? (All this info is sourced to Delgado 1991.)
  • The "Unfissioned plutonium" section says "The results of these plutonium detection tests, and of tests performed on fish caught in the lagoon, caused all decontamination work to be abruptly terminated...", but it doesn't say what the results were. You have to read down 7 paragraphs into the next section to confirm that yes, they found plutonium everywhere. There's no need for that kind of suspense. The explanation can be quite brief, but it should at least be mentioned that the test "[t]o see if this plan was working" showed that it was unambiguously not.
  • The article says "The local government elected to close the fly in, fly out, land-based diving operation". If the reader is not already familiar with the term, it isn't clear what this means (nor is it clear how to parse the sentence). A slight modification, and a link to Fly-in fly-out, should do the trick.

Image check: Every image is legitimately in the public domain, and all necessary information is provided. (While researching the copyright status of File:Admiral Blandy Mushroom Cloud Cake.jpg, I found an interesting fact: while the Wall Street Journal meticulously renewed the copyrights on every single issue, the Washington Post did not. I'll have to remember that. It could prove very useful.)

  • Seriously, the prose is great, and I'm not finding much to critique. I've made a number of minor changes (mostly commas) to improve the grammar or make the text clearer. Let me know if you disagree with any of these.
  • I modified the caption of the self-x-rayed fish. If my wording left out something important, let me know.
  • This is not required for Featured status, but in my opinion, it would be an improvement if the article had a footnotes section separate from the citations. Then the explanatory notes (20, 26, 95, etc.) could be given their own space.

Enthusiastic support. This article explains every facet of the subject in clear, understandable, brilliant prose. If there were pages, I would call it a page-turner. It passes all the FA criteria with flying colors, and is truly among the best Wikipedia has to offer. – Quadell (talk) 13:37, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(end of review by Quadell)

Review by John

Support First I note that I have worked on this article before this FAR process. That said, I am very pleased with the recent improvements and agree with Quadell that it now meets FAC. --John (talk) 09:12, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

Support on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 15:33, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments

  • as Texas had done with its battleship might this be better phrased as: "As Texas had done with the USS Texas" with appropriate link?
  • What's an attack transport?
  • Generally, I'd prefer the ships involved to be named when they're mentioned rather than just a generic reference. I know that you have that nice list immediately following, but still...
  • The links in the caption for the Able target array are redundant.
  • , which could be lowered into the water by crane Is this important?
  • large naval gunships Battleships, you mean.
  • Link megaton. Nicely done.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 06:46, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Done
  2. It's a type of warship. Linked.
  3. Noted.
  4. Noted.
  5. A number of ships sank during the war due to fires started by the onboard aircraft and its stores. So the aircraft are mentioned in the context of damage. Then an editor presumably thought that it might not be understood how they worked and added an . This is something that you known of course, but many readers may not be so familiar with the warships of the period.
  6. Majestic titans
  7. They had lithium deuteride fuel but did not realise that lithium-7 will fuse as well as lithium-6, so the bomb went off with a much, much bigger bang than expected. Linked. Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:51, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

All points addressed. Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:51, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

All of my issues have been dealt with.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 06:01, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:02, 9 November 2013 (UTC) [33].[reply]

Samuel Merrill Woodbridge

Nominator(s): ColonelHenry (talk) 05:23, 21 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's probably not the shortest article brought to FAC (I think there are a few 8kB FAs), but I think this is the little biography that could. FYI: I started the article on 18 September, it was promoted a GA about a half hour ago (21 September), and I have a DYK hook pending review. --ColonelHenry (talk) 05:23, 21 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Brianboulton

OpposeComments: nominating at FAC within half an hour of GA promotion is not generally a good idea. It assumes that there is no distinction between GA and FA, which is not the case; one would expect at least a few days' polishing and preparation with the FA criteria in mind. I've taken a brief look at this very short article, and without any close inspection have spotted a number of errors and infelicities:

  • Reply: I don't remember anywhere in WP:WIAFA that there was a requirement for the passage of time between GA and FA or any other statuses. But maybe adding seemingly unwritten rules seems to be the norm around FAC.--ColonelHenry (talk) 17:39, 21 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply: I agree with ColonelHenry that there is no rule saying that there must be a waiting period between getting GA status, and applying for FA status. It's different groups of reviewers for GA and FA. Earlier this year, I helped write an article that went straight to FA status without ever having had a GA-review. DavidinNJ (talk) 18:18, 21 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am not saying that there is any rule or requirement about the timing of a FAC nom, merely that articles shouldn't be hurried into FAC without some due diligence, whether they have been through GA or not (and GA is a very uncertain preparation for FAC). Brianboulton (talk) 16:48, 23 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As an undergraduate student, Woodridge was a member of the university's secretive, all-male Eucleian Society and be elected to Phi Beta Kappa." Faulty grammar.
  • Woodbridge is variously described as "Woodbridge" and "Rev. Woodbridge" without any logical distinction. The former should be used consistently, after his full formal title is given in the lead.
  • Likewise there is a disparity in form between "The Rev. Samuel Merrill Woodbridge" in the lead image caption and "Rev. John Ludlow" in the text.
  • Why repeat Woodbridge's postnominals and birth–death years in the image caption?
  • Incidentally, although I have numerous reservations about the use of infoboxes in WP articles, it is customary for general biographical articles to have them, at any rate when they reach FAC. Any reason why you've decided not to have one?
  • I happen to agree with you, but others may not. Long experience of infobox arguments leads me to think that your decision should be backed by more than personal preference. I think your citing the length of the article is a sensible justification, certainly the one that I would use if a box was added later. Brianboulton (talk) 16:48, 23 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tense error: "During his tenure at the seminary, Woodbridge would also provide instruction in the areas of..." → "...Woodbridge provided instruction..."
  • "Rev. Woodbridge received honorary degrees from New York University (A.M., 1841)" Really? He was 22 at the time - a bit young for receiving honorary degrees; can you check this?
  • Reply: I actually don't need to check this. An "A.M." was typically given by early 19th century American universities seemingly as an honour for being alive a few years after graduation, and typically bestowed upon clergymen after a few successful years at their first pastorate, for educators, or for academic distinction in the years after their baccalaureate work. It did not become a taught degree in the States until later in the 19th century. For instance, Princeton stopped giving honorary A.M.s about the time it changed its name in 1896, Harvard and Yale stopped the practice a decade or two earlier as they developed real graduate programs. In its honourary 18th and 19th century form, it is similar to the Oxbridge Master of Arts. Remember, Thoreau refused to pay Harvard for his A.M. diploma. --ColonelHenry (talk) 17:39, 21 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The problem is that, in modern terms, "honorary degree" means a degree honoris causa awarded for distinction in some field outside the university's remit. This probably covers Woodbridge's later degrees, but hardly the 1841 A.M. which looks like an upgrading of his A.B. in the manner whereby, today, Oxford and Cambridge BAs become MAs after three years - these are not "honorary degrees". If the A.M. was essentially automatic, it's perhaps best to omit it altogether from a sentence dealing with "real" honorary degrees. Brianboulton (talk) 16:48, 23 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • But they weren't "automatic" like the upgraded varieties. Rutgers and NYU's catalogues don't show that many A.M. degrees being handed out, and in Rutgers' case they list it as an "honorary" degree. so I lean toward keeping the description as "honorary". NYU's is a little more vague, but given that NYU didn't hand out degrees across the board to his fellow 1838 classmates, it would be in keeping with the notion of an honorary degree. --ColonelHenry (talk) 18:03, 23 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done (24SEP13) I checked with NYU's archivist yesterday, and she emailed me that the NYU 1841 A.M. degree was a "promoted" degree, which both could and could not be considered honorary and that roughly half of the class would get the promotion based on their going into the clergy or being admitted before the bar as an attorney. It seems those who entered a life "in commerce" seemed to get passed over. I will defer to referring to the NYU A.M. as being "promoted." The Rutgers 1841 A.M. will still remain as "honorary" because the Rutgers catalogue describes it as such (at p. 339).--ColonelHenry (talk) 12:13, 24 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His first marriage was to Caroline Bergen (d. 1861) in February 1845 and the couple had one daughter, Caroline Woodbridge (b. 1845)". The "and" conjunction is inappropriate. Also, the sentence should be fully prosified: "who died in 1861", "born in 1845".
  • I think bodies are normally interred "in" rather than "at" family plots.

These comments, remember, are based on a quick glance-through rather than a careful review of the text. The article obviously needs more attention. There's no reason why short articles shouldn't become FAs, but there are fewer hiding places for errors, so special care needs to be taken. Brianboulton (talk) 17:12, 21 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

More comments

I have had time for a more detailed reading, and have the following additional comments:

  • Lead: "Woodbridge later led the seminary as "Dean of the Seminary" and "President of the Faculty" from 1883 to 1901." It's not entirely clear whether by "the seminary" you mean the New Brunswick seminary; the link actually confuses the issue here. You could get rid of the confusion, and the repetition, by rewording, e.g. "Woodbridge later led the New Brunswick seminary as Dean and President of the Faculty".
  • Biography: "According to a genealogical chart in Munsey's Magazine..." - you could give a litle more information, e.g. "According to a genealogical chart published in in Munsey's Magazine in 1907..."
  • Biography: "Classis" is a fairly obscure word for the general reader; why not say "governing body"?
  • Biography: "He would retire from teaching" → "He retired from teaching" - and a comma should follow "professor"
  • Biography: "According to church historian Charles Edward Corwin, Rev. Woodbridge was described as having a "strong personality" that "made dry subjects to glow with life," adding that Woodbridge "was very firm in the faith but his loving heart made him kindly even toward those whose opinion he considered dangerous." Several issues with this sentence. The wording "According to church historian Charles Edward Corwin, Rev. Woodbridge was described as..." is very heavy-footed. Why not simplify to something like: "Church historian Charles Edward Corwin recorded that Woodbridge had..." etc? That way, the "adding" participle works, which it does not at present. Whether or not you adopt my wording you need to lose the "Rev". Also, I don't think that a commonplace phrase like "strong personality" warrants quotes.
  • Books: Why not give publication details (location, publisher)?
  • Reply (23SEP2013). I haven't found that information. I suspect it should be "New York: Board of Publications Reformed Protestant (Dutch) Church" like several others at the time. The books aren't online for me to check, and my emails to research librarians at the Seminary and at Rutgers haven't received a reply. Standby.--ColonelHenry (talk) 17:59, 23 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Books: "Rev" appears again in the image caption.
  • Sermons and discourses: the presentation is not fully consistent and looks incomplete. Details of publication are missing in a couple of cases, more precise dates are given in two other instances. Unless those two dates are of specific importance I would drop them. Where publication details cannot be determined I would add a note to that effect, to avoid the impression that the table is unfinished.

Brianboulton (talk) 16:48, 23 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Follow-up completed the issues regarding "sermons and discourses" section.

Support: All issues resolved. Brianboulton (talk) 21:58, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support from DavidinNJ

Support I have a few minor suggestions, but I believe that this article definitely meets the feature article criteria.

1a. Well-written - The writing is as good as an article in a major newspaper or magazine.
1b. Comprehensive - Though the article is relatively short, it thoroughly covers all aspects of Woodbridge's life and works.
1c. Well-researched - The article uses high-quality encyclopedic and archival references.
1d. Neutral - Article has no bias.
1e. Stable - Article history shows no evidence of edit warring.
2a. Lead - Lead is concise and summarizes Woodbridge's life. I suggest removing the words 'American Reformed Christian.' The sentence does not describe what kind of author he or where he was a college professor, so it shouldn't go into detail about his denomination.
2b. Article structure - The structure of the article is good. I suggest that the biography section be broken in two sections (e.g., early life, career).
2c Citations - reference style is excellent and highly consistent throughout the article.
3. Media - Selection of pictures is good. Add alternate captions to the pictures.
4. Length - Size is appropriate for the type of article. There is no one proper length for article; it depends on the among of information available for the given topic.
DavidinNJ (talk) 18:18, 21 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • @DavidinNJ:, Thank you for your support and your suggestions. I'll look into that first sentence shortly and weigh some alternatives. As for the alt-text, I'll add that forthwith. As for splitting the biography section...I considered splitting the biography section into smaller sections, but it doesn't seem to work well. If I divide off his career work, which begins as a clergyman in 1841, I split the second paragraph--which seems to be a rather awkward break and would leave the material for the "early life" section too short as a separate section. If I were to split it later, like after the second paragraph, it would be in 1857 (when he was 38), which means half of his life including his 16-year ministerial career, would be "early life." I would venture to say the 6 paragraphs of biographical content work better as one section.--ColonelHenry (talk) 18:53, 21 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Giants2008

  • Quick comment – Don't have time for a full review right now, but I noticed a pp. in note 1 that should be p. instead since the citation is to a single page. As Brian says, an article this short really needs to be spotless to merit FA standard, so this should definitely be fixed. Giants2008 (Talk) 01:06, 22 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article appears to be using international-style date formatting for the birth and death dates. Since this is an American subject, this should likely be changed to U.S.-style formatting (April 5, 1819), unless there's some other circumstances I'm missing.
  • Reply: I'm not a WP:STRONGNAT supporter. I find its forceful application to be a jingoistic and nonsensically exclusionary policy. (1) I find the policy based on a fallacy, because there is no longer, in this globalised world, one consistent "American style", (2) I disagree that just because someone happens to be an American is not sufficient in my book for claiming a 'strong tie' to any particular style, and (3), the guideline says "should" not must. The conditional modal verb is exactly that, conditional. (see IEEE style guide 13.1 for the optional character of "should"). Guideline = recommendation = should = options. Lastly, style guides in the humanities, including the editors of Chicago-Turabian, are moving consistently toward international style.--ColonelHenry (talk) 01:37, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Jimfbleak

  • Biography—I thought that "Biography" was frowned upon as a heading in biographies, with "Life" being preferred. If I'm wrong, please ignore
  • Reply: I don't see anything of the sort at WP:BIO or within the MOS, and I can point to several GAs and FAs that use the section title "Biography". If you can point me to anything regarding that, I'll be glad to address it then.--ColonelHenry (talk) 17:40, 23 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • 7 years—numbers less than ten should be spelt out
  • seminary as "Dean of the Seminary" and "President of the Faculty" —Are the quote marks necessary? And can the repetition be avoided by something like seminary as its Dean and as President of the Faculty
  • Rev. — just checking that it's standard to always abbreviate
  • Classis—I don't know this word, can it be linked or explained?
  • Rutgers College—link
  • He would retire from teaching in 1901—He retired..."
  • The "Biography" was just a vague notion since I don't write many of this sort of article. Other concerns have been addressed, and I note that you are moving on with Brian's comments (some of which appear to be the same as mine) so I'll change to support above. Good work. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 09:22, 24 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Cwmhiraeth

I was the reviewer of this article at GAN at which time several improvements were made. A few further points:-

  • "Both schools were then affiliated with the Protestant Dutch Reformed faith." - It is not clear to me whether this refers to synchronous affiliation or subsequent affiliation.
  • Reply: During the course of his life, both schools were affiliated with the Reformed faith. While I do see the basis for your comment, I think it's adequately conveyed unless you have an alternatively better wording--I'd prefer not using the trite and repetitive "at that time". There is an explanatory note attached therewith stating that Rutgers became nonsectarian in 1945. I would assess that the details of the school's religious affiliations (see WP:SUMMARY) are not appropriate at this biographical article and assert that it is a discussion that's best explored at length in the history sections of the articles for Rutgers University (affiliated with the RCA 1766-1945) and New Brunswick Theological Seminary (affiliated with RCA 1784-present)--both of which I have worked on (moreso for NBTS).--ColonelHenry (talk) 13:00, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • It would look better if the image of the church was vertical. It looks a couple of degrees off to me.
  • Reply: Taking a photo on a narrow street of a tall building is always problematic. Secondly, FA criteria just ask that the photo is relevant, free content, and properly captioned. There is no discussion about aesthetics.--ColonelHenry (talk) 13:00, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Follow up: After taking a longer look at the picture, yes, the vertical orientation of the church is negligibly off by a few degrees, however, this slight angle is augmented by the incline in the street...the curb at the right edge of the photo is about 12-16" inches above curb at the left edge. Further, take into account the distortion of taking a photo of a tall building across a relatively narrow street, and there's the effect you mention. It would take me 90 minutes to drive each way to New Brunswick to take a replacement photo, and given gas prices, and from a cost-benefit analysis there isn't a pressing need and it's frankly a waste of time unless I had other things to do down there. However the image isn't up for featured content as a featured picture, the article is, and as far as the FA criteria go, the aesthetic shortcomings of the photo aren't quite important. I don't think there is an issue.--ColonelHenry (talk) 22:11, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply: Define objectively "a bit sparse" in terms of the FA criteria and specific shortcomings so that I can determine if this is an actionable issue. I assert that I am sufficiently familiar with the sources available for Rutgers and NBTS history, church history, and those for persons connected with them, so as to be able to speak and assert that there are likely few if any other sources beyond those cited that would substantively or qualitatively expand this article.--ColonelHenry (talk) 13:00, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first two points are not deal-breakers. With regard to the image, software is available that can rotate images but in this instance the non-allignment is quite trivial. Your final reply makes it seem likely that the article is as comprehensive as reasonably possible. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:11, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Nikkimaria

Image review

  • Agree that postnominals and dates of life are superfluous in lead caption - however, consider including a date for the image
  • File:Samuel_Merrill_Woodbridge_1819-1905.jpg: licensing tag is incorrect. You didn't take the original image, so scanning it in does not create a new copyright. Is the creator of the original image known?
  • Reply: I will repair the tag, I do not know who took the original image, most likely a local New Brunswick, NJ photog--but not Robert Boggs who signed all his work on the negative. Because of the original's fading pattern I think it's an AgCl or AgF print, and the style of its cartes des visite, it would be from the late 1860s. Therefore, should I change it to a general PD or "too old to be copyrighted" tag? I admit, my knowledge in selecting Wikipedia's licensing tags is sorely inadequate--and that day, I think I uploaded several images and this was likely a mistake made mindlessly while going through the uploading process.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:19, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done (28SEP13) - fixed it with a PD-old template.--ColonelHenry (talk) 05:34, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply: I don't know of any publishing of the photo. I know it's in the NBTS and Rutgers library special collections, I know there's a copy in the RCA archives at Hope College in Michigan. I have a copy in my collection of NJ and Rutgers-related stuff because it was released both as a regular print and on card-backing, c. 1904. I have both, but the print is better quality.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:19, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done (28SEP13) - I believe I've explained that adequately on the image summary.--ColonelHenry (talk) 05:44, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Nikkimaria: - I'll address the above comments above later today after work. In the meantime or thereabouts, since I know and respect your reputation for keen detail in addressing FAC reviews, would you be able to do a full review in case there are things other reviewers and I have missed? --ColonelHenry (talk) 13:58, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • Done (29SEP13) - there were three in the article, one in the lede, two in the body. I removed the link at "Reformed Church's Classis of New York" and kept the one at "Protestant Dutch Reformed faith" since I think "Dutch Reformed" would benefit more from the link and the other is contextually sufficient. --ColonelHenry (talk) 14:54, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there any critical commentary or review of either his theology or his sermons? Of his publications?
  • Reply (29SEP13) - None that I know of--and this is an area I know a lot about. His books were more like textbooks or primers. Mostly they were prepared to aid his instruction to his students--since before the 1850s/1860s most Reformed theology instruction was donimated by adherence to the writings of Johannes van Marck (Marckii Medulla Theologiae) which was in Latin. Woodbridge basically provided an English-language textbook. As for his sermons, in the 19th century there really wasn't much in the way of criticism of sermons, they were just published, and often if they were referenced by other writers/clergy it was typically to reinforce a point in their own sermons and writings. When you get to a critical discussion of homiletics it's more an analysis of rhetoric or pedagogy and the means of effectively communicating the message than a critique of their premises and content. However, homiletics doesn't emerge as a scholarly discipline in the Protestant tradition until about 40 years after Woodbridge's death (with the work of Andrew Watterson Blackwood Sr. at Princeton Theological Seminary), when his work was largely out of circulation or ignored.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:33, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • What was the difference at the time between dean and faculty president?
  • Reply: (29SEP13) None really besides title--I established they were both successors to the post of seminary president which places it in context. Both posts were given to the oldest, longest-serving professor at the Seminary--which I discussed regarding the "Dean" title. Am I mistaken in thinking "president of the faculty" is rather self-explanatory--especially given the context before and after its mention.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:33, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we know dates of birth/death for the second wife?
  • FN4 includes a doubled period
  • I believe that "passim" is discouraged in citations in much the same way that ibid is
  • Reply: (29SEP13) "discouraged", not prohibited. However, "passim" isn't mentioned at WP:IBID. The rationale by which "ibid", and "op. cit.", "loc. cit." is discouraged stems from their usage to refer to other specific page mentions in previous notes that can be removed, separating the full source from the subsequent note which just says "McCormick, ibid.", or "McCormick, loc. cit."--"passim" does not make a specific reference that would be lost if it were removed. In this article, I don't just say "McCormick, passim." as a short reference and leave it) The guideline mentions ibid. for this reason, and says "other similar abbreviations". I would venture to say "passim" is not similar in this regard--especially since both cites to this source are full citations (i.e. I refuse to use short citations for this reason among others). Unfortunately with a book where the two statements (the two ubiquitous factoids that Rutgers became a state university and that it was previously affiliated with the reformed faith) are referenced throughout the source, "passim." is appropriate. --ColonelHenry (talk) 14:42, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN10 title should use endash

Finally, can you describe briefly what steps you've taken to search for additional references? This source, for example, may have been missed. Nikkimaria (talk) 06:06, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Reply: (29SEP13) - J.H. Raven's Biographical Record (your link), of which I am familiar, offers the same information that I've cited from other sources, including the NYU and Rutgers catalogues, the seminary's 40th anniversary "Festschrift" (I cite Raven's 1916 Rutgers catalogue, but his 1911 seminary Biographical Record references the 1909 Rutgers catalogue which he compiled, and earlier editions before his tenure). I did not cite the work you linked above because it is largely derivative of, and duplicates, the works I've already cited in the article. As I stated above, any additional works that are out there (and I'm likely aware of all of them) don't add anything more substantively or qualitatively to the content of the article beyond what I've already presented and cited.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:23, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:03, 9 November 2013 (UTC) [34].[reply]

Chalciporus piperatus

Nominator(s): Sasata (talk · contribs) & Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:01, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sasata and I are nominating this for featured article because we feel we've tinkered with it to the point we're happy with it as far as we can tell and figure that any further tinkering can be done with a minimum of fuss and comfortably within the FAC time frame. I need to re-borrow one book when it is available (Rainforest Fungi of Tasmania) to get a page number and will be able to do so in the next 3-4 weeks. So have at it for everything else...cheers, Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:01, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Support Comments from Jim Usual polished work, just a few niggles before I support Jimfbleak - talk to me? 09:58, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Please stick to one variety of English spelling, I don't mind which (color/colour and an autumn at least)
britannicized britannicised Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 17:16, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • ectomycorrhizal,—daunting in the lead, can it be replaced (symbiosis) or glossed here?
  • binomial name—link
linked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 17:27, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The fruit bodies... —this sentence changes from plural to singular as it loses its subject (sorry Cas)
singularised Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 17:42, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • One of the smaller boletes, the cap —A cap isn't a bolete, methinks
indeed...required some rejigging Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 17:42, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • thought to be ectomycorrhizal, C. piperatus has not been confirmed as ectomycorrhizal in —Easily avoided repetition
  • It has been used as a condiment in many countries —How is it used? Fresh, dried, powdered?
sources don't really clarify, just say "added in small amounts" ...so I presume it is either dried or just occasionally 1-2 mushrooms are cooked up along with a bunch of boletes. I am pretty sure it isn't powdered though. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:00, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I scraped my sources and added this, but agree in general that there isn't a whole lot written about this. Sasata (talk) 07:22, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yannai cited text is missing publisher, Fuhrer is missing a page number
added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 17:36, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support (Delegates: I was the GA reviewer). Very strong- even the chemistry section is very readable! Great pictures and sources, well written, even quite an interesting species. If I'm being picky, the last line of the edibility distribution section is rather oddly constructed and the edibility section is a little choppy. J Milburn (talk) 22:01, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

yeah that sentence is a tricky one. The suspicion is that the clade is parasitic, so reworded. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:44, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by Quadell

The article is well written. It's a bit of a snoozer for those of us not particularly interested in mushrooms, but that's not the article's fault; in fact, the prose (particularly in "Description") does an admirable job of making dry information as engaging as possible. I have a few relatively minor suggestions below. I have also made a few wording and grammar changes for smoothness. If you disagree with any of them, feel free to revert and discuss.

  • Semicolons have their place, but it can be distracting for the reader when two sentences in a row use them. The top of the "Description" section and the bottom of the "Distribution and habitat" section both do this.
  • Hyaline should be linked and parenthetically described ("translucent") the first time it is used, not the second.
  • This sentence could use a reword: "The basidia (spore-bearing cells) are narrowly club-shaped with many internal oil droplets, hyaline, four-spored, and measure 20–28 by 6–8 µm." At first it looks as if the sentence is saying that the basidia have internal oil droplets and hyaline, or that the oil droplets are hyaline. It's confusing to use "narrowly club-shaped with many internal oil droplets" as the first adjective-phrase in a list of adjectives. And the last list item isn't an adjective at all, but a verb, and so doesn't belong it the same listing. So I would reword like "The basidia (spore-bearing cells) measure 20–28 by 6–8 µm and are hyaline, four-spored, and narrowly club-shaped, with many internal oil droplets." (Although it might be smoother broken up into two sentences.)
  • The multiple "and"s are poetic in "in or near coniferous and beech and oak woodland", but perhaps too casual.
  • Is it correct to capitalize "West Coast" but not "eastern states"?
  • Our article capitalizes West Coast. As far as I know, there isn't a capitalized noun for the group of states in the eastern US. At any rate I've changed it to the equivalent Pacific Coast (in which the capitalization is more obvious). Sasata (talk) 17:31, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The second paragraph of the "Distribution and habitat" section uses "has been recorded" in two sentences in a row.
  • Would it be accurate to explain ectomycorrhizal for the reader this way? "...thought to be ectomycorrhizal (symbiotic with plants, like most Boletaceae)..." If so, it would be helpful.
  • This clause contains an incorrect use of a comma: "The mushroom needs to be well-cooked before consumption, otherwise there is a risk of gastric symptoms". Perhaps this? "The mushroom should be well-cooked before consumption to minimize [or alleviate] the risk of gastric symptoms"
  • Should it be in the category of "edible fungi", given that the text describes controversy about the designation?
  • If left it in, as it has some history of being used as an edible mushroom. I'm not too concerned about the categorization of "edge" cases like this; I figure if Amanita muscaria is in this category, this mushroom can be as well! Thanks for your helpful comments Quadell. Sasata (talk) 17:31, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support. All my concerns have been addressed. This article clearly meets all our FA criteria. – Quadell (talk) 18:20, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • FN38: Boletes of California is an online edition of California Mushrooms, but has different publisher and author information than the print version - is there a way to reflect this in the footnote? I see dates are reflected already. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:33, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:03, 9 November 2013 (UTC) [35].[reply]

2012–13 Michigan Wolverines men's basketball team

Nominator(s): TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:19, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because it is a very important season for WP:CBBALL. It chronicles a national player of the year's season as well as the 2013 NCAA Men's Division I Basketball Tournament runner-up team's season. --TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:19, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please note that I attempted to get this cleaned up at WP:PR and the request was ignored for a full cycle.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:25, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest removal by delegate The nominator is unable to either respond to comments or withdraw the article, seems best that it is removed until he is unblocked Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:32, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

Resolved comments from Toa Nidhiki05 16:55, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Toa Nidhiki05

Going to go over a list all concerns I see.

Lede

*Insert a comma after 'Ann Arbor, Michigan'.

*'The team entered February with a 20–1 record (7–1 B1G), but with an injury to eventual B1G All-Defensive selectee Jordan Morgan and a stretch of games against its strongest conference opponents, Michigan lost three out of four games and closed the season with a 5–5 run to finish tied for fourth in the conference. They then won one game in the Big Ten Tournament before being eliminated.' Once again, a bit of a run-on. I would suggest putting a period after noting they lost three of their last four games, and then combining the other two sentences.

*Remove the quotation marks around 'official' per WP:SCAREQUOTES. I would suggest rewording this sentence entirely to something along the lines of "The Wolverines appeared in the national championship game, the first time the team had done so since 1989; appearances in 1992 and 1993 were vacated due to a scandal".

Preseason roster changes

*'The team lost both of its 2011–12 Michigan Wolverines captains to graduation after they completed their eligibility the prior season.' No need to note the previous season specifically; just say 'the team had lost both of its captains from the previous season...'

*Move or remove the 'April 7' in front of 'Nike Hoops Summit', as it is not part of the event's name.

Preseason

*'...were ranked number 1 and 3 respectively.' Add a comma after 3.

Slogans, nicknames, and emblems

*'According to David Brandon, assistant coach LaVall Jordan and director of basketball operations Travis Conlan, guided to the team to develop the slogan' Remove the comma after Conlan.

Schedule

One thing I notice in this is that this section is big, and has a lot of text. It would be very difficult to find anything in particular here, especially individual game result. I would suggest this be divided somehow - like dividing it into regular season and postseason sections, or dividing it by month up until the tournament. With that out of the way, I'll get on to the section itself.

*'In its November 12 contest against the IUPUI Jaguars, the team's 91–54 victory gave it its first consecutive 90-point performances since the 2000–01 team, did so with 90 against Oakland and 92 against Western Michigan as part of a November 2000 3-game 90-point streak.' Seems a bit weirdly worded. I'd change this to 'The team's first game of the tournament, a November 12 contest against the IUPUI Jaguars, resulted in a 91–54 victory for Michigan. The win also gave Michigan its first consecutive 90-point performances since the 2000–01 team recorded three consecutive 90-point games.'

Statistics

*In all instances of numbers in the thousands, use commas.

*Change the first sentence to 'Statistics come from the team's website'.

Watchlists and awards

*Nothing really bad here, but it would be nice if you would vary up phrasings a bit. It seems like every other sentence begins with 'On [x date]'.

2013 NBA Draft

*Big problem with this section is it is written in present-tense. Since these events already happened, the text needs to be in past-tense.

Postseason roster changes

*'On May 8, 2013, the school's final required disassociation with players implicated in the University of Michigan basketball scandal ended.' Very awkward to read. Change to something like 'The team's required 10-year dissociation with players implicated in the University of Michigan basketball scandal ended on May 8, 2013'.

Great job on the fixes - I'll go ahead and give tentative support, since there hasn't been a full source check yet. Toa Nidhiki05 23:07, 22 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review by MarshalN20

Leaning Support: The article looks great, and it was a fun read. However, I find the amount of images in certain sections quite overwhelming. Some are repetitive and others lack action. To be more specific:

With regards to the sources, I think all of them are appropriately used along with their level of reliability. For instance, source 255 caught my attention, but I think it is acceptable since it is citing an uncontroversial (and related) subject. My only suggestion here, and this is something that might sound bothersome, is to change the number dates into words (instead of 2012-11-21, write 21 November 2012). I have found this to make source management and checking much easier, and also would help readers be less confused (sad it may sound, readers do get confused with the month-date order).


Regards.--MarshalN20 | Talk 19:17, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, moving the image from the bottom to the Roster section would look much better.
I switched the image positions.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:17, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Changing vote to full Support.
Great work.--MarshalN20 | Talk 03:03, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from SkotyWATC 04:49, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Skotywa review comments
  • "the team matched the greatest starts in school history" should either be "the greatest start" or "one of the greatest starts" shouldn't it?
  • "Reaching 11–0..." maybe could be worded better as "Starting the season with 11 consecutive wins..." and would reduce the repetitiveness of the schedule milestones discussed in later sentences.
  • "Tim Hardaway, Jr. was named to the All-Big Ten 1st team by the coaches and to the 2nd team by the media; Robinson was named an honorable mention All-Big Ten by the media and Morgan was an All-Big Ten Defensive team selection." Is the semicolon usage here correct? I would have thought a comma instead of a semicolon, and another comma before "and Morgan" is the right way to do it. I'm not an expert in semicolon punctuation though.
  • First it says this: "At 16–0, Michigan matched their best start since" and then later it says this: "Burke (9th) and Hardaway (24th) gave Michigan its first pair of first round NBA draft choices". I think either "its" or "their" is fine for "Michigan", just be consistent on which one you use throughout the article.
  • The first line of text in the "Preseason roster changes" appears to be an uncredited, unsourced quote.
  • "the team lost three players who decided to transfer: Evan Smotrycz, Carlton Brundidge and Colton Christian decided to leave the program." Here, "decided to leave the program" seems redundant.
  • "As of December 30, 2011, McGary, Robinson and Stauskas ranked 3, 34, and 79 in the Rivals.com Class of 2012 Top 150, respectively" maybe this is just personal preference, but it seems like the "respectively" would make more sense right after the 79.
  • "Albrecht led Northfield Mount Hermon School to the 2012 NEPSAC Class AAA Boys' Basketball Tournament, defeating McGary's Brewster in the semifinals." I had to do a double take on "McGary's Brewster" trying to figure out what it was talking about. The table next to the paragraph clears it up, but it might be worth using the full school name, Brewster Acadamy, here since it's the first mention in the prose. Wikilink would probably be appropriate here as well for the same reason.
  • "After most of the big signings announced their decisions on the April 11 signing day" I'm confused by this statement since so many other dates are mentioned in the paragraphs above. Did they just "commit" on those dates but not "sign" until April 11th?
    • College basketball recruiting is sort of complicated. Players are often identified before they become a teenager and start getting physical mails, emails, and texts from schools. At certain times of year certain types of communications are allowed. Over time these times of year change. At some point as players reciprocate interest in schools, a school will make an official offer. They probably have to record official offer dates with the NCAA or at least keep official records to document the propriety of their communications (Offer date is often the first important date in a relationship). As players gather official offers, they also scout out schools by taking official and unofficial visits to schools. There are specific types of activities that are allowed for official visits and others that are allowed for unofficial visits. Players are allowed official visits to up to 5 schools. I have never read the rules, but I believe schools are allowed to provide round trip transportation, lodging and special events tickets. Oftentimes player will attend to during a home football game weekend or come during Midnight Madness weekend (Official visit dates are important). Coaching staffs are also allowed to make an official visit to the players home where his mother will often prepare a homecooked meal. For a lot of players, the relationship between the coaching staff and his parent is an important factor (home visit dates are important date and may come before an official visit). At some point after the players have visited campuses and coaches have visited their homes, players will often make an announcement of which school they have chosen. For blue chip players, there is often either a press conference held at his school or a media announcement (e.g., a live announcement on ESPN). These announcement are called verbal commitments. Jabari Parker's article has three pictures of his verbal commitment press conference that I attended. Once you make a commitment, other schools are limited on the types of communications and interactions that they are allowed to have with you. A player has to officially decommit in order to change schools. Then at some later date you officially sign a National Letter of Intent. Once you have signed a letter of intent you are commited to that school for the next year unless the coach leaves the school before the season starts (signing day is the last important date). Signing is only allowed during certain parts of the year. I think there are two signing periods a year for basketball. The first day of each period is called a Signing day because it is when most signings happen. I think you have to sit out a year if you want to change schools after signing a letter of intent. I think most of the dates in this article are commit dates and signing dates. Lots of bios have the three earlier dates too.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:03, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thank you for the explanation. Do you think that there should be any more clarification in the article prose about this, or is it reasonable to expect the reader to have some understanding of this? Obviously I didn't, but I'm not that familiar with college basketball. --SkotyWATC 16:17, 13 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • NLI has an article. It is pretty much like signing a contract and a verbal commitment is an official promise. I don't know how much confusion there is between making a promise and signing a contract, but since one of them is linkable, I hope the confusion is not too great.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:42, 13 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Iowa State signee Monte Morris" I would say only leave Monte Morris a red link if you actually think an article will be created for him.

Sorry that I've only had time to review through the "Roster" section so far. If I have time later, I'll continue reviewing. Let me know when you've addressed my concerns and I'll come back and strike them. --SkotyWATC 17:37, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've struck my comments which have all been addressed. I had one follow up comment/thought on the recruiting paragraph, but I'll leave it up to TonyTheTiger to decide if anything should be added/changed since this article is well outside my areas of familiarity. I hope to have some time this afternoon or early this week to continue reviewing the rest of the article. --SkotyWATC 16:17, 13 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm finally back to finish my review of this article. Sorry for the delay. Too many things going on right now in my life. Anyway...

Okay, I'm done with my review. That's all I found. I look forward to returning and striking my comments/concerns/suggestions and voicing my support. Again, sorry for the delay with my review. --SkotyWATC 22:56, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Okay, all is well with my review comments. I am happy to support this article's promotion to WP:FA. --SkotyWATC 00:26, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image check - all OK (own work, Flickr CC, PD-ineligible).

  • Support Comments thanks to this.
  • "The team lost graduating senior captains Zack Novak and Stu Douglass, who moved on to professional basketball careers in Europe. " when? I'd say something like "Following the 2011-12 season, the team lost...".
  • "The team made its first Sweet Sixteen appearance since the 1993–94 team did so in the 1994 Tournament." just mentions "1994 once here IMO

YE Pacific Hurricane 03:05, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In all, very good job. YE Pacific Hurricane 03:06, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

El Cid Ruderico's review

I will continue to do what I can, to shoot around for 50 or so per day in the coming days. Elcid.ruderico (talk) 01:01, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Other than those slips, the narrative is great. Although I never watched a single moment of Michigan basketball from this season, I get the idea I could easily remember the best plays from a strong season. Down to about 140 more refs (another 41 in the games results table). --Elcid.ruderico (talk) 01:23, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Now, only 207–275 to go. --Elcid.ruderico (talk) 07:40, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Almost there – should be able to get it wrapped up tomorrow.

Just that one. Ref check done. Everything looks great! Here's hoping your article passes. --Elcid.ruderico (talk) 09:43, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Notes by Ian Rose

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 3 November 2013 (UTC) [37].[reply]

Choiseul Pigeon

Nominator(s): FunkMonk (talk) 13:40, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This article was written by Rufous-crowned Sparrow (with some input from me) and nominated for FAC a few months back. The process was going quite well (two supports), until he suddenly disappeared, and he has not edited Wikipedia since May. In the meantime, I have addressed the issues he did not get to fix before the FAC was closed, and I have made a few other alterations. So though Rufous-crowned Sparrow is not here, I would see this as a co-nomination. I tried to contact him through email long ago, but no reply. FunkMonk (talk) 13:40, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:Choiseul_Pigeon_Range_Map.PNG: source for range info?
Well, pretty much all books about the bird mention these islands. You want a source on the image page? FunkMonk (talk) 09:22, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I added a source on the image page. FunkMonk (talk) 09:35, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The colour scheme seems simple enough to not be copyrightable, and the bird icon is clearly a stylised derivative of the Keulemans image (I base this on the fact that his image is the first and the definitive image of the bird, which most others are based on, and on several details that are the same). Maybe stylised enough to be distinct? I can ask at Commons. A bit of useless info: http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/sb-ch.html FunkMonk (talk) 09:30, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by Quadell

This is a very strong candidate. The writing is excellent; I can find no grammar problems or unclear sections. The article seems as complete as the sources will allow, does not go off on tangents, and is will organized. The images are all free and used appropriately, and all necessary information is present. Every statement is sourced, and my spotchecks revealed no problems. I have a very few nitpicks.

  • Captions that are complete sentences (e.g. "Red denotes...") need to end in periods. Captions which are not (e.g. "Choiseul Pigeon on the flag...") should not end in periods.
Changed, but I'm not sure what you mean by complete sentence? FunkMonk (talk) 20:44, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Complete sentences have both a subject and a predicate (though both can be complex). When you say "Red denotes [X], while brown denotes [Y]", that's a complete sentence and needs final punctuation. There is no verb in "Choiseul Pigeon on the flag of the Choiseul Province". That's just a noun phrase. You could turn it into a sentence by saying "The Choiseul Pigeon is on the flag of the Choiseul Province", and then it would need a period. Anyway, you fixed it. – Quadell (talk) 15:10, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • One reference ("Fuller 2001, pp. 185–188.") ends in a period. The others do not.
Fixed. FunkMonk (talk) 20:49, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Tennent journal article is 12 pages long and is referenced 14 times. It can be difficult to locate information used in the article. It would help the reader if the page numbers of each reference were given. (For instance, the first reference [a] only uses page 241, while the last [n] uses page 251.) This is true to a lesser extent regarding Hartert's and Rothschild's journal articles as well. (See the "Sources" section of John Sherman for an impressive example of such.)
Ouch, you want me to do it to the latter ones as well? FunkMonk (talk) 20:53, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It would honestly be helpful in the case of the Tenant and Hartert references. It's not as helpful with a 2-page reference like Rothschild, but you might want to for consistency's sake. I can help with this. – Quadell (talk) 15:10, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. FunkMonk (talk) 20:49, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I'll fix these issues before long. FunkMonk (talk) 20:39, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support, this article is complete, well organized, well written, and fully sourced. The only thing not done is the paging for journal articles. I think that would be a clear improvement, and I'm willing to help with that. Regardless, I don't think it's an obstacle to FA status. – Quadell (talk) 15:10, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I'll certainly do Tennant, and then I'll try the other ones. FunkMonk (talk) 15:14, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Too late. :) I changed them in the way I suggested. – Quadell (talk) 16:05, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, thanks! I have to say that ref-consistency is my least favourite part of the FAC process... FunkMonk (talk) 16:08, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Apart from a bit of redundant wording (which I tried to clean up), the article is in good shape. I don't have access to the sources so the accuracy of some of the statements is hard to access. But I think that on the whole it's FA worthy. Praemonitus (talk) 02:53, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. it was successfully source checked during the last FAC. FunkMonk (talk) 01:20, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments by Cwmhiraeth. In general this seems pretty comprehensive and looks good, but I have a few minor points about the prose:
  • "... allowing hunters to pick it up off of its roost." - Personally this makes me wince! Surely "off" is sufficient?
Fixed. FunkMonk (talk) 14:41, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It was only recorded by Albert Stewart Meek, who collected six adults and an egg from the northern part of the island in 1904. Despite many searches, the Choiseul Pigeon has not been definitively reported since Meek collected the six specimens in 1904." - This seems a bit repetitive.
Cut. Better? FunkMonk (talk) 14:41, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "John Gerrard Keulemans, the bird's original artist, depicted the crest as being flat based on Meek's specimens" - Needs a bit more punctuation for its meaning to be clear.
Changed, better? FunkMonk (talk) 15:41, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • It seems odd to me to describe the birds iris, then its feet and then its bill. Is the "heel" the joint one can see on the leg in the illustration just below the plumage?
Changed order. The heel is the joint you mention. Some incorrectly call this a "knee". FunkMonk (talk) 14:41, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The start of the Distribution section has a number of very short sentences.
Made some changes. FunkMonk (talk) 15:01, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • " ... did not turn up any signs of the pigeon." - A bit unencyclopedic perhaps?
Discover? FunkMonk (talk) 15:02, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • " It has been declared extinct by the IUCN Red List " - I don't think a list can declare the bird extinct!
By > on? FunkMonk (talk) 15:15, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Personally I would say "As there have been no substantiated reports since 1904 despite multiple searches, the IUCN has declared it extinct."
Alright, will do. FunkMonk (talk) 18:20, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "it is likely that the Choiseul Pigeon was already close to extinction in 1904." - And Meek helped it on its way by killing 6 specimens and taking an egg! (Just a comment, no action required.) Cwmhiraeth (talk) 11:48, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Heheh, same story is true for many other recently extinct birds. Museum collectors were their worst enemies! FunkMonk (talk) 14:51, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! FunkMonk (talk) 18:20, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 3 November 2013 (UTC) [38].[reply]

Twenty-cent piece (United States coin)

Nominator(s): Wehwalt (talk) 13:26, 5 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because… I believe it meets the criteria. The twenty-cent piece was one of those mistakes that Congress and the Mint just didn't learn from. Not only did they make it too similar in size to the quarter, they used the same design for one side! It did not last long, which may account for a similar mistake being made a hundred years later with the Anthony dollar, or as one source called it "Susie-Bucks". With that dubious note (which may be seen in the references), enjoy.Wehwalt (talk) 13:26, 5 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Images are fine, captions are good. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:52, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I plan to retake the patterns the next time I get to Colorado Springs. Very grateful for your help, as always :) --Wehwalt (talk) 15:57, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support from Crisco 1492, with a couple nitpicks
  • Far West - perhaps a link would help?
Far West was the contemporary term for the West Coast, "West" would be ambiguous. I think it's self-explanatory to today's reader.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:04, 15 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fair enough
  • the obverse, or "heads", side of both coins were - Looks like a subject/verb agreement issue
  • fractional currency - this was recently moved; I'd avoid the redirect if possible
  • I've copyedited. Be sure to double-check. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:38, 15 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the review and support. I think I've caught everything and have looked over your c/e, which is fine.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:21, 15 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments

  • What was the size differential between the quarter and the 20-cent piece? Since all of the silver coinage of the period had similar obverses, the cause for confusion isn't real clear unless they were nearly the same size. Otherwise well done.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:16, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
2.3 mm (24.3 vs 22). By way of comparison the diff between the Susan B and the quarter was 2.2 mm (26.5 to 24.3). I will add something when on my laptop later.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:06, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
And thanks.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:09, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've done that now. Thanks again for the comment. Very helpful.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:45, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Glad to help out; like I've been saying sometimes a pair of not-so-knowledgeable eyes can be really useful in proofing an article.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 03:56, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think you've proved your point. The similarity in size was so obvious I didn't mention it. Now I have. Fortunately, there are good coin reference books. Thanks again for the review and support.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:25, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Comments
  • You mention that small change didn't circulate in the West. I've heard that before, but never heard a good explanation. Do you know why?
The bottom line is that there were no mints striking copper coins available to the West, and so the monetary system evolved without them. Who would bring a load of pennies to the West Coast? I'll look to see if Taxay has anything to say, or Lange.
No big deal if you can't find it. I just thought it would help explain this point that seems odd to modern readers (and I was curious, myself!)
  • I added a couple of hyphens.
  • "Despite the fact that the Mint..." might be better as "Although the Mint..."
  • "The twenty-cent piece was abolished by Congress..." might be better as "Congress abolished the twenty-cent piece..."
  • Your first external link has an odd format.
  • That's all. Nice article on an unloved coin. --Coemgenus (talk) 13:34, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I've done your other comments, still looking on the California stuff.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:04, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to support. If you find out anything about base metal coins in the West, it would be interesting, but it reads like an FA to me even without it. --Coemgenus (talk) 12:01, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I looked. They discuss the situation (Taxay, Carothers, Lange) rather than how it came about, and they really discuss paper money more than the minor coins. Thank you for the review and support--Wehwalt (talk) 17:03, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Graham Colm 10:02, 3 November 2013 (UTC) [39].[reply]

Albert Ball

Nominator(s): Georgejdorner & Ian Rose (talk) 23:33, 30 September 2013 (UTC) Other principal editors Soundofmusicals and Carcharoth are being invited to co-nom.[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because...

Albert Ball cleared Good Article Review two years ago. It has since undergone rearrangement of the material within it—mostly shifting sentences about to improve chronological flow of the article. There were also some tweaks made when the latest (Pengelly) bio became available as a source. A stable and complete article, it is worthy of being featured as a best example of Wikipedia.Georgejdorner (talk) 23:33, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Happy to co-nom per George's invite. The GA and ACR nominations were largely our efforts, and Soundofmusicals and Carcharoth became more heavily involved during and immediately after the latter review. With four regular editors I expect there may well be places in the article that require some polish but a great deal of research and writing effort has gone into it and I think it has the goods -- between George and myself we should have access to the main sources and be able to respond to potential queries. Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:54, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Resolved comments from Cassianto
Comments from Cassianto

I have read through this today and I'm impressed. Happy to support after some comments. These will be in fits and spurts due to RL and (*ahem* resolving comments on my FAC a few lines up) so please bare with me. Lede will come last.

Early life
  • "After a series of moves to houses throughout Lenton..." -- Redundancy of "to houses" IMO.
  • We seem to have an abundance of "Lenton's" in the first few opening lines: "Albert Ball was born on 14 August 1896[2] at 301 Lenton Boulevard in Lenton, Nottingham. After a series of moves to houses throughout Lenton, his family settled at Sedgley, 43 Lenton Road." →"Albert Ball was born on 14 August 1896[2] at 301 Lenton Boulevard in Lenton, Nottingham. After a series of moves within the parish, his family settled at Sedgley, 43 Lenton Road." I have no idea if this is indeed a parish so I could be wrong here, but I would chose a different word from Lenton.
  • I don't think being a plumber is "a status". This is a job title if anything else. If we are talking of status's then it would be "employment" to "Lord Mayor"
  • "His parents were considered loving and indulgent." -- By who?
    • That would be his biographer Bowyer, although if the latest bio (Pengelly) doesn't disagree, I'd say we could just drop "considered". Perhaps George or Soundofmusicals can check that as Pengelly is the one major source I don't have. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:30, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Ball's parents allowed him tools, radios, and other electrical equipment for his workshop (the hut mentioned below). He grew up in "genteel surroundings" with his own room and maid service. His father was considered "patient and lenient", as well as protective and supportive of his children. He was a hands-on father, teaching his son to shoot. His mother was so devoted to him that Ball's death reduced her to semi-invalidism.
      • I did extend the cite to include one more page of such examples.
      • The actual sentence in Bowyer is: "All three children benefited from the love and indulgence of a close-knit family life."Georgejdorner (talk) 08:32, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Ball had his own small hut" →"Ball had a small hut". "Had" and "his own" are both possessive in this context.
  • "Possessed of keen vision, he soon became a crack shot.[5] He was also deeply religious.[6] None of this curbed his daring in such boyhood feats as steeplejacking.[7] -- There seems to be a lot of stubby sentences here which makes for bumpy reading.
    • Open to suggestions. The statements about his shooting are particularly relevant and read okay to me. I think the religious bit is also important and probably can't easily be combined with other sentences. The last bit about steeplejacking perhaps belongs before the religious thing (we can also expand on it a little if that'd help smooth the bumps). Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:30, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • I think it should all stay, but the pauses should be reduced. The trouble is that each of the short sentences are about completely different subjects so they can't really use commas. Could one of the sentences be expanded a bit? For instance, we could move the "crack shot" claim to where we speak of his upbringing with guns? What religeon did he follow? We could then combine the "steeple jack" claim with a conjunction. Failing that, I do think your correct when you say that the "steeple jack" claim would be better before the "religeon". -- CassiantoTalk 08:00, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "helped him gain work at Universal Engineering Works" -- work/works in close proximity.
Initial military service
  • "March 1915 saw Ball..." →"In March 1915, Ball..."
  • Excuse the pun, but we seem to be flying through his early years here: "...though he was still interested in other girls such as Thelma Starr." In the space of two sentences, he has met, married got engaged and become interested in initiating an affair with another woman. How and where did he meet his new wife, who was Starr to him where did he meet her, did he have an affair, or was it lust only?
  • "...where his interest in engineering could find an outlet" -- his interest doesn't find it, he does. Could this be reworded.
  • The money conversion ruins the flow of prose IMO. Could this be put in a footnote?
    • Mmm, it's a pretty concise bit of info, though; I've thought a footnote might be more trouble than it's worth... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:30, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • These money conversions are standard things in WP articles; they are in numerous articles besides this one. They give the reader the sense of the "real" present day amounts. Also, the sizable sum is another example of parental indulgence.Georgejdorner (talk) 09:22, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Sure they are standard, I have used them for all of my FAs. I used them for Dan Leno (in the text) and Marie Lloyd (in a footnote). Now I have used the two, I prefer footnoting them as the flow can become somewhat interrupted by the conversion. I suppose we could get away with this one as it is at the end of a sentence.
  • "Ball would wake at 3:00 am to ride his motorcycle to Ruffy-Baumann and get in some flying at dawn," -- "get in some flying" just does not sound right. Also, do we really need to know which mode of transport he took? Surely the key point here is the fact he was taking flying lessons. "Ball would wake at 3:00 am for flying practise...
Military flight training and reconnaissance work
  • "Although considered an average pilot" -- By who?
  • "certificate no. 1898 -- Do we need to know this? If so, worthy of a footnote?
  • "Completing his training at Central Flying School, Upavon, he was awarded his wings on 22 January 1916." → "He completed his training at the Central Flying School, Upavon, and was awarded his wings on 22 January 1916."
  • "He survived being shot down by anti-aircraft fire on 27 March." -- "shot down by anti-aircraft fire"? Would he have be shot down by any other kind?
  • "Three days later, he fought the first of his several combats" --he/his. Redundancy of "his" IMO.
  • Could the short sentence at the end be combined?

These are for now, more to follow... -- CassiantoTalk 19:41, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tks for taking the time to review, Cass. Aside from those I've responded to, I think I've actioned all the comments above. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:30, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for thorough and constructive reviewing. Your incisive comments have led to many detailed improvements. As a final favo(u)r, could you please check for any "Yankeeisms" I have committed?Georgejdorner (talk) 18:56, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Not a problem, I will try and continue tonight, if not tomorrow. -- CassiantoTalk 19:14, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Initial fighter posting
Home front
Second fighter posting

Looks good.

Final flight and aftermath

Looks good.

Posthumous tributes

Looks good

Post-war legacy
  • "Following the end of the war, Ball's grave, which had been behind enemy lines, was located at Grave 643 in the Annoeullin Cemetery." -- Handy to know where this cemetery is as it is a new section.
  • "Ball's is the only British grave from the First World War in this extension, the rest being German war graves." →"Ball's is the only British grave from the First World War in this extension, with the rest being German."
  • Is "Nottingham High School Junior School" its actual name?

Everything else looks really rather good. -- CassiantoTalk 04:54, 15 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tks for your continued interest! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:34, 15 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Lead section
  • "...was an English fighter pilot of the First World War." →"...was an English fighter pilot during the First World War." Not much different, but the latter sounds better IMO.
  • Is there a tributary comment we could add onto the end of the final paragraph? I think this would round the lede up nicely and give the reader the sense on just how popular and remarkable this man was.

CassiantoTalk 08:58, 15 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support -- All of my points have been answered satisfactorily and I am now happy to add my support. This is a very good article indeed! --CassiantoTalk 20:03, 15 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Many tks Cassianto! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 21:49, 15 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments

Support on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. Two comments:

  • "Another memorial tablet is present inside the same church, stated in 1930 to be mounted on the north wall": Either it's there or it's not, regardless of what was once stated.
  • "His father wanted the remains brought back to England for reburial, but the policy put in place by the Imperial War Graves Commission meant that this was not possible. The Commission were working at the time to consolidate the British war graves into fewer cemeteries; 23 British bodies in graves in the location where Ball was buried were moved to the Cabaret Rouge British Cemetery, but at his father's request Ball's grave was allowed to remain.": I'm not following what his father wanted and what the Commission wanted. - Dank (push to talk) 18:06, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments - responding to a couple of the points raised by Dank above, as some of the text he was querying was added by me back in 2011.
    • (i) The bit about the memorial tablet in 1930 was part of what I added two years ago. If you look at the talk page (search for '1930'), you will see that I suggested back then a more up-to-date source (the same as the one Ian used). I should have added that source back then, which would have avoided this quibble. Sorry about that.
    • (ii) The bit Dank queries above, starting ""His father wanted the remains brought back to England for reburial" is also part of what I added back in 2011. Ian says above that he 'reconciled this by cross-checking another source' I've looked at the edit Ian made, and that change has gone too far, IMO. Dank, what Ball's father wanted was repatriation from France to England. What the Commission wanted was to keep the bodies in France, but consolidate them into fewer cemeteries (in this case, the nearby Cabaret Rouge British Cemetery which is in France, not the UK). The compromise was to allow Ball's body to stay where it was originally buried (i.e. in the local cemetery's extension for German and other war graves), and also to allow Ball to have a private memorial, rather than the standard Commission headstone. This is a fairly important point, as it is relatively rare for such burials abroad to not have this standard Commission headstone. Dank, does that make things clearer? Ian, does this help explain why I think the text about Ball's father wanting the body brought home is correct and should be restored?
      • Carcharoth, I couldn't access the source you used for your edit, so I checked what Bowyer, as one of Ball's two major biographers, had to say on the subject and rewrote the passage based primarily on that. Even if you vouch for the accuracy of the source you used, I don't think the passage can be restored just as it was because the first line was passive and confusing (who had located Ball's grave?) and there was further confusion owing to Albert Sr's apparent change of mind (first he wanted the body moved, then he didn't). Personally I think it's simpler to leave as is because it does accurately reflect what a key source says -- happy for anyone to double-check that, or voice their opinion, of course. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:44, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Ian, the first (passive) line was rewritten in an earlier edit - I'm not objecting to that. I'm objecting to your removal of the line about the policy against repatriating the British and Empire dead - this underpins what happened here with Ball's grave. The key sources on the background to this will be the histories of the Imperial War Graves Commission. Those histories will get details like this right, based on the correspondence with Ball's father in the archives kept by the Commission. Without making clear that Ball's father originally wanted the body brought home, you leave the reader with a misleading impression. I will explain on the talk page. Carcharoth (talk) 00:38, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • Responded there -- my point above is that there was a confusing impression in the text as presented originally, since Ball's father seemed to want his son's body moved, then not moved, without an obvious explanation as to his apparent change of mind. Based on what you've said on the talk page, we may be able to resolve that now but it wasn't clear before. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:18, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • (iii) While looking over the recent edits, I noticed this one that Dank asked be checked. I don't know who originally added that, but I suspect that 'in an advanced state of nervousness' shouldn't be replaced with 'anxiously'. Could someone check the citation for that?
      • (iii) Okay, I have corrected the page numbers within the Bowyer cite.
      • (iii) Either term above would be British understatement to a fault. Ball was temporarily blinded by oil spraying from a holed tank, and left flying helplessly with an engine about to seize.
      • (iii) After landing, Ball could not at first dictate his combat report because he "...was in so overwrought a state...." After thanking God, Ball admitted he thought a dying German pilot might ram him.
      • (iii) The squadron's Recording Officer, Lieutenant T. B. Marson, remarked, "In that event, his nerve failed him in the last."Georgejdorner (talk) 03:35, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • (iv) There are other sources on the talk page referring to minor points (a sentence or two here and there) that I had intended to add at some point. I should have done so earlier, and I'm now not sure whether to return to this article and do that, or not. Really, the discussion from two years ago never came to a proper conclusion. Ideally, that would have been sorted before this FAC. So I'm in a bit of a quandary as to what to do now. Would there be any objections if I tied up those loose ends?
Carcharoth (talk) 01:41, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Whatever Ian wants to do with those is fine by me. - Dank (push to talk) 02:18, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am certainly open to improvements.Georgejdorner (talk) 03:10, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks, both of you. I've put more detail about the 'anxious/overwrought' wording on the article talk page. I will do my best to get back to the earlier material on that talk page as soon as possible (either tonight, tomorrow night, or next week). That may give time for Ian to comment as well. Carcharoth (talk) 23:08, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    As I've proclaimed to all involved in the writing/editing of this article, during reviews I'm pragmatic rather than idealistic, mainly because stability is always part of the criteria. There's always more detail out there that can be added in and there's been plenty of time over the years to make tweaks to this article; no WP article is ever 'finished'. Therefore if something in the article under review is demonstrably inaccurate according to reliable sources, it should be altered or excised. If OTOH we're simply talking further detail, well I think it's a fairly well-detailed/nuanced summary of his life, career, and legacy as is and such things can wait until after the review. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:44, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Ian, what I had to say in reply turned out to be longer than expected, so I'll drop a note on your talk page (and ping George as well) rather than write at length here (i.e. I don't want this to distract from this review). But, the point George has made on the article talk page about the 'anxious/overwrought' wording is important - I think you need to look at that and comment there. Carcharoth (talk) 00:38, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm happy for George to word that as he sees fit -- as I say, clarifications/corrections may need to be made as necessary, that's not an issue. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk)

I have checked all Pengelly cites. With minor corrections, all of them check out except (68). That one, to my way of thinking is rather "air ware". There is no mention of directorship in the cited pages, and only author's speculation concerning Ball's motivation.

Georgejdorner (talk) 06:34, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Am in process of checking Bowyer cites.Georgejdorner (talk) 02:12, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, all,

As it turned out, my copy of Bowyer is a newer paperback copy. The original cites were from the 1977 hardback. To correct any errors, I had to switch all page numbers to this 2004 edition.

All Bowyer cites are now corrected.

Georgejdorner (talk) 18:24, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have been keeping an eye on this review despite not 'dropping in' lately. Tks for all that work George; I only had access to the 1977 edition of Bowyer when we first worked on this article and obviously the paging is different to the 2004 edition -- that was a labour of love on your part! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:44, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if I am going to motormouth elsewhere about the necessity of checking links, I have to back it up here.Georgejdorner (talk) 14:47, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am not aware of any outstanding issues at this point. I have been able to check about 80% of the cites back to their sources. ODNB is the major source I was unable to check out.
Double-checked ODNB, just a couple of tweaks. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:53, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I made a plain (and rather awkward) amendment to develop an unadorned account of the 5 May 1917 near-ramming.Georgejdorner (talk) 02:24, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Tks George, I changed a word and trimmed a bit but in the main I think your clarification of what actually happened was just the right thing to do -- definitely worth it. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:56, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:03, 3 November 2013 (UTC) [40].[reply]

2011 Lamar Hunt U.S. Open Cup Final

Nominator(s): SkotyWATC 00:30, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The final match of the 98th annual edition of the oldest soccer competition in the United States was historic for multiple reasons... breaking an attendance record, and a team three-peating as tournament champions for the first time a in 43 years. GA review for this article was completed last year, and a thorough PR was completed earlier this year. The article is complete in its coverage and is well referenced, but it may still benefit from some additional copy edit suggestions from some of the more experienced reviewers here. Overall, I believe this article is very close to FA level and will benefit from this final review and (hopefully) resulting promotion. Thank you for taking the time to read it and provide feedback. SkotyWATC 00:30, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Toa Nidhiki05

Resolved comments from Toa Nidhiki05
:I'll be going through the prose of this article. Toa Nidhiki05 16:01, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
General comments

Overall the prose is very well put together. The text is very good for the most part, and it flows very well.

  • There are a few duplicate links in the article, but not too many. If you have the duplicate link finder gadget you should be able to see them, but in case I you don't I'll note the ones here (the ones that need to be unlinked will be slashed:
  • 'with two goals from Orr Barouch and a goal each scored by Dominic Oduro and Yamith Cuesta.' (Chicago Fire subsection)
  • 'Chicago went up 2–0 with a goal from Dominic Oduro'
  • 'or visit Chicago Fire at Toyota Park in Bridgeview, Illinois,'
Excellent. I've cleaned these up. I'm not familiar with the tool, so thanks for providing the details. --SkotyWATC 21:36, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Lede
Mmm, good catch. Not sure how this one slipped through the cracks. Thanks for finding it. Fixed. --SkotyWATC 15:35, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It was linked in the body ("previous season" in Road to the Final section) section, but not in the lead. No good reason to not do it in the lead too (especially since the text of the link is different). Fixed. --SkotyWATC 15:35, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Road to the final
  • 'In 2011, MLS, which has teams that play in both the United States and Canada...' MLS needs a 'the' in front of it; you could add one and eliminate the 'in 2011', because it has already been established the tournament took place in 2011. Toa Nidhiki05 01:31, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done. --SkotyWATC 15:35, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Change 'against fellow MLS side' to 'against a fellow MLS side'
Done. --SkotyWATC 15:35, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done. --SkotyWATC 15:35, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Great suggestion. Fixed. --SkotyWATC 15:35, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Pre-match
Fixed. --SkotyWATC 21:36, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. --SkotyWATC 21:36, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. --SkotyWATC 21:36, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Match
I've added another footnote for the US Soccer match report which notes the starting players as well as those on the bench. --SkotyWATC 21:36, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Removed "of the match" at the end of that sentence. --SkotyWATC 21:36, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Post-match
Comma added. --SkotyWATC 21:36, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Mmm, good suggestion. Link added to "2012 edition". --SkotyWATC 21:36, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for taking the time to read the article and make suggestions. I've followed up on everything you've found so far and look forward to addressing more. Thanks again. --SkotyWATC 15:35, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. I've noted a few more issues that need to be fixed, as well as some duplicate links. Once these are fixed I'll be more than happy to support (just as a note, I will be gone until around 11:30 PM EST today so if I don't respond immediately, that is why). Toa Nidhiki05 18:19, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I've followed up on the remaining issues. Your time and attention in this review is appreciated. --SkotyWATC 21:36, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Good job on fixing those issues; although a full source check has not been made, I think a support is warranted due to the sheer quality of the prose. Toa Nidhiki05 18:46, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – I provided a bunch of comments on the article at its peer review, and it looks in much better shape now than it did back then. There are still some issues that I can detect, though:

  • Chicago Fire: The first sentence of the section says that the Fire had five pre-2011 final appearances, but the last sentence says they gained "their seventh trip to the U.S. Open Cup final." Which is it?
Good catch, I don't know how such a glaring mistake has made it through so many reviews. I changed "seventh" to "sixth" and I've double checked the sources to make sure this is correct. --SkotyWATC 04:06, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Venue selection: It would be nice if two straight sentences didn't end with "in order to meet demand". The first two words of both aren't even needed anyway.
Good suggestion. I've removed the first instance completely and shortened the second. --SkotyWATC 04:06, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Analysis: "however, the Fire had improved throughout the year by improving the play of their wingers and midfielders." Bit of a prose redundancy here with "improved" and "improving".
I changed it to "the Fire had improved throughout the year through improved play from their wingers and midfielders." --SkotyWATC 04:06, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • First half: The last sentence of the section is uncited; since it should be easy to find something for this, I recommend doing so because other reviewers will expect to see all of the content cited.
I added a reference for that. There were a number that could have fit.
Same. Fixed. Thank you for taking the time to review the article again. I'm glad that you found the things you did this time. These are great improvements. --SkotyWATC 04:06, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support – Now that all of my comments have been addressed, I'm convinced that the article meets the FA criteria. Nice work on the page. Giants2008 (Talk) 00:09, 5 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image check - all OK (CC, CC OTRS). Sources and authors provided - tweaked a few Commons categories. GermanJoe (talk) 06:59, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for taking the time to review the images! --SkotyWATC 04:07, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from TonyTheTiger
Resolved comments from TonyTheTiger Talk
;Road to the final
Done. --SkotyWATC 01:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Chicago Fire
I've added "in their 14-year history" to the sentence to add this context. --SkotyWATC 01:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nice. I added "most recently in 2006". --SkotyWATC 01:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't understand why New York sent reserves.
The USOC is, for some teams, less of a priority than doing well in league play. It's an additional burden on teams above and beyond the regular MLS schedule. New York is a team that didn't prioritize the tournament as much that year. Ironically, the backlash from New York fans because of this caused New York to put more of a priority on the tournament than they had been. But this article isn't about that. --SkotyWATC 01:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well that depends. In the USOC tournament, they defeated F.C. New York in the third round played 3 weeks earlier (on June 28th) to losing to the Chicago Fire in the semifinals. In MLS season play, they had just lost to D.C. United two days earlier on July 9th. Since the quote from the New York coach cites "fatigue" as the reason for playing reserves, it's probably worth adding this context (about playing 2 days earlier). I've added "New York had lost to DC United in league play just 2 days earlier." with a reference to provide more context here. Good questions. I hope this helps. --SkotyWATC 01:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The U.S. Open Cup was at stake, however as I kind of explained above, clubs are competing in multiple tournaments every year and, as a result, are forced to prioritize/deprioritize some games over others when there's a short turnaround. I hope this makes sense. I know it's kind of unusual for American sports, but internationally, soccer clubs face these types of prioritization decisions all the time. For example, Manchester United plays games in the English Premier League, the UEFA Champions League, and the FA Cup (similar to America's U.S. Open Cup) pretty much every season. Sometimes the scheduling of these games is very tight and they have to decide which games they'll play their best players in. --SkotyWATC 01:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Wikilinked. --SkotyWATC 01:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Seattle Sounders FC
I can't find any. It just means the pass was made with his head. --SkotyWATC 01:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. Expanded to "Starfire Sports Complex". --SkotyWATC 01:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a little surprised to discover that there is an article for bicycle kick. I didn't expect that. Wikilinked. Great suggestion. --SkotyWATC 01:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There sort of is. It's a redirect to an appropriate section in the goal article. Wikilink added. --SkotyWATC 01:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Analysis
Removed the word "unexpectedly". I supposed it was unexpected because of the recent coaching change, but the word is not necessary, and you're right, it's a borderline issue with WP:NPOV. --SkotyWATC 01:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Host selection process changes
I'm not sure these have ever been made public. The source I point to does not go into detail. I've heard that it has to do with quality of the field (turf vs. grass), lighting, separate locker rooms, broadcasting booth, etc. but since I don't have a source (and I doubt a publicly available one exists), this is all I can put in the article. --SkotyWATC 01:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
WP:LEAD
Good suggestion. Most of the time the term "U.S. Soccer" is used in the article, however, I've updated the 3 other places where the whole term was used to "USSF". --SkotyWATC 01:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You should not use two different nicknames, especially if you only define one at the beginning. Either start with United States Soccer Federation (USSF or U.S. Soccer) or (preferably) use one nicknamethroughout. --TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:51, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've standardized the article on "U.S. Soccer" wherever a nickname is used. This is more in-line with out it's referred to among fans and in news reports. --SkotyWATC 23:22, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Venue selection
It's the bid process. --SkotyWATC 01:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Saying it was determined is somewhat mystical. You should mention the bid process here.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:08, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done. --SkotyWATC 23:03, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Clarified that they're "bleacher seats". --SkotyWATC 01:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Link bleacher.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:08, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done. --SkotyWATC 23:03, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Second half
Merged. --SkotyWATC 01:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Wikilinked all of them. Good stuff. These seem obvious to most of the people who have reviewed this already, but they're very familiar with soccer nuances and rules. Thank you for these suggestions. --SkotyWATC 01:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Why are you piping goal mouth to goal all of a sudden and leaving post unlinked later in the sentence?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:52, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry about missing rebound. Fixed. Also, I think I misunderstood your request for the goal post wikilink. I've moved it to the word "post" from "goal mouth". I think I've found an appropriate wikilink for "goal mouth" here: Association_football_pitch#Goals. Hopefully that addresses these remaining concerns. --SkotyWATC 00:37, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Post-match
Well, there's a picture of the club celebrating at the top of the article. They may have been broadcast, but I don't have a reference for that. The specifics (from the source referenced) are that they were handed t-shirts and awarded their trophy. I've reworded it a bit "engaged in the post match trophy awarding ceremony and celebrated on the field." I hope this works better. --SkotyWATC 01:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No idea. It probably would have been a municipal airport since this wasn't being pulled around by some jet. Just a small propeller plane. That said, I have no source for that detail. --SkotyWATC 01:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As above, no idea. --SkotyWATC 01:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The source doesn't say, just that it was a "scarf". IIRC it said "Seattle Sounders FC", but if I put that in, it would be WP:OR. What's in the article now, matches the source referenced. --SkotyWATC 01:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is actually mentioned in the source. I've reworded the latter half of the sentence to this: "over Seattle and Bellevue in the afternoon and early evening respectively, in celebration of their victory." --SkotyWATC 01:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Neat. Done. --SkotyWATC 01:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There is no source that says how it was divided up. MLS teams (and the league) are always very secretive about player salaries, prize money, sponsorship funds, etc., so it's by no means unusual that this level of detail is just not available. --SkotyWATC 01:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've added the following sentence with a reference: "In the Champions League, Seattle won their group and were eventually knocked out of the tournament in the semifinals by Mexican club Santos Laguna." --SkotyWATC 01:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Images
Thank you for reviewing the images. I've made updates to the captions I thought were problematic. If you still think there are issues with the captions that need to be addressed, please provide specific suggestions. --SkotyWATC 05:26, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Resolute
Comments from Resolute


I did the GA review on this article, and had remarkably few quibbles then. I don't expect I'll have many now either.

  • In "Road to the Final", you mention "top-six" three times in a sentence and a half. Perhaps add a little variety by noting the specific position Chicago placed in 2010?
Agreed this is a little redundant. I've removed the last one. --SkotyWATC 06:06, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Would Hyndman's complaints about the host selection process be better in the relevant section rather than the Sounders' road to the finals section? Not necessarily asking for a change here though.
I did consider this a couple of times previously. In the end, I felt it was best to include in the context of the game he was commenting on. It also serves as a bit of foreshadowing of the last section which covers the hosting controversy. That section I feel stands on it's own and didn't need repeating of Hyndman's comments to cover to topic fully. Let me know if you have concerns about any of my reasoning for it's placement, and I'm happy to replay and/or make changes. --SkotyWATC 06:06, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nine days later ticket sales surpassed 30,000... - missing comma?
Fixed. --SkotyWATC 06:06, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fire coach Frank Klopas made two substitutes late in the match... - should that be "made two substitutions"?
That's probably better. Changed. --SkotyWATC 06:06, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I might wikilink stoppage time, though it is a redirect to a relevant section of the association football article.
Wikilinked. Good suggestion. Thanks. --SkotyWATC 06:06, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was about to comment that the referee was missing from the "match officials" part of the results table, then found that he was listed in the upper right corner. This is probably a flaw in the template design, but I would like to see all four officials listed together.
I added the referee to the match officials section too. Probably fine to list him twice actually. --SkotyWATC 06:06, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Who were the other two finalists for "player of the tournament"?
I've added a mention of the other two finalists (both from the Richmond Kickers) with wikilinks. I've also verified that the reference supports this (which it does). --SkotyWATC 06:06, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Following the final, MLS and U.S. Soccer officials began meeting to discuss ... - I would simplify that down to "Following the final, MLS and U.S. Soccer met to discuss...".
Changed per your suggestion. --SkotyWATC 06:06, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's about it for now. Resolute 00:31, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for taking a second pass through the article and providing more suggestions. Your help and feedback is greatly appreciated. --SkotyWATC 06:06, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from ArsenalFan700

I added the template for the Chicago Fire's matches as they have been in quite a few Lamar Hunt U.S. Open Cups and some MLS Cups as well. However, when I added the template I saw that the Seattle Sounders FC matches template was added in a different format from what I am used to... is that right? I just want to make sure because if it is then I would recommend the same be done for the Chicago Fire template. Also, there are a lot of red links in the Chicago Fire matches template, I will create those pages when I can, just thought I let you know. Cheers. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 01:12, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the heads up. The format looks the same to me, so I don't see a problem. If you have further comments on this topic, let's take them to the talk page since they're not really related to reviewing the content of the article. Thanks! --SkotyWATC 03:39, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ha, I noticed that, I just wanted to get this to your attention. Anyway, I made the change and it worked fine so my problem is fixed... now I need Ford to make his pro debut and I am set. Cheers mate and any more questions will be on the talk page. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 03:43, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:03, 3 November 2013 (UTC) [41].[reply]

Jefferson Davis

Nominator(s): Omnedon (talk) 13:47, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This article was promoted to Good Article status recently, and has since received a peer review. I believe it is now ready for consideration as a Featured Article, and I am ready to make any necessary improvements. Omnedon (talk) 13:47, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Minor: Why don't you put "worth over $2,000,000 in 2010" in brackets next to 100,000 and avoid a whole section for a single note?—indopug (talk) 10:54, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea. I have used this method in other articles, but they all had multiple similar notes. I've moved this one to the body. Omnedon (talk) 13:44, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image check - all OK (PD-age, own work). Sources and authors provided.

Support. My concerns and quibbles were all addressed during the peer review. Very nice article -- good luck! --Coemgenus (talk) 21:50, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments This is a rather good article, and it's great to see that so much work has gone into this important topic. However, I don't think that it is of FA standard at present. Some statements are needlessly imprecise, and the article would benefit from material which provides greater context for Davis' actions and explains his motivations. My specific comments are:

  • When did the family move to Wilkinson County, Mississippi?
    Within a year of the first move. Omnedon (talk) 01:53, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • When did Davis enter West Point?
    He started in 1824. Omnedon (talk) 01:53, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Davis was assigned to the 1st Infantry Regiment and was stationed at Fort Crawford, Wisconsin. Davis was still in Mississippi" - the "still" doesn't seem appropriate given that he was Wisconsin in the previous sentence
    Agreed; this has been clarified. Omnedon (talk) 02:18, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Taylor became Davis' commanding officer at Fort Crawford in Prairie du Chien, Wisconsin Territory" - when?
    This was in 1829. Omnedon (talk) 02:18, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why did Davis resign from the Army in 1835? - the text implies that this was so that he could marry Sarah Knox Taylor, but this is never explicitly stated.
    I've added more detail, and have explicitly stated the reason for his resignation. Omnedon (talk) 02:42, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Joseph desired to have his youngest brother nearby and gave Brierfield to Jefferson, who eventually developed Brierfield Plantation there" - when did these events occur?
    The previous point having been addressed, this chronology is now more clear. Joseph desired both his brother and Sarah to be there. Omnedon (talk) 02:42, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Being bored, and feeling somewhat better, Davis returned to Mississippi with Pemberton" - when?
    This is not documented in the sources I could find; but the visit to Cuba doesn't seem to have been very long. I've added more detail on the voyage. Omnedon (talk) 03:10, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Did Davis really "worship" the memory of his first wife? This sounds rather extreme.
    Sources do indicate that he was deeply affected by the loss, and was reclusive for years afterwards. Omnedon (talk) 03:10, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Do they use the term "worship"? Even allowing for Victorian-era sentimentality, this seems over the top. Nick-D (talk) 09:59, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I disagree that it's "over the top", and I believe the source used that term; but I suppose "revered" or "honored" could work better in the article. Omnedon (talk) 13:59, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Not to belabor the point, as I agree a different word works better here; but another illustration of the degree to which Davis was affected is the fact that he insisted on visiting Sarah's grave on his honeymoon with Varina. Omnedon (talk) 16:03, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "1840 Davis attended a Democratic meeting in Vicksburg and, to his surprise, was chosen as a delegate to the party's state convention in Jackson." - was this his first involvement in organised politics?
    Yes -- clarified. Omnedon (talk) 03:28, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in 1843 became a candidate for the state House of Representatives" - did he stand for a particular district/seat?
    I've added more detail on this. Omnedon (talk) 03:28, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Who were "Margaret L. Kempe and William Burr Howell"? I'm not sure why they need to be named in the article
    This forms a link with the more notable connection, the governor (William's father). Omnedon (talk) 02:00, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I'd suggest dropping the names of the parents if they're not notable or didn't have any other influence on Davis' life Nick-D (talk) 09:59, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    That's been done. Omnedon (talk) 12:12, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "During this time Davis was convinced to become a candidate for the House of Representatives" - state or federal?
    It was the United States House of Representatives. Omnedon (talk) 03:39, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Davis resigned his house seat in June" - is the specific date of this known?
    I have not found a specific date in the several sources I've checked, but one states that it was early June. Omnedon (talk) 03:39, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why did President Polk agree to Davis' proposal to rearm the regiment, and what did this involve? (had Davis arranged for a stock of these weapons, or were they sourced after the event?)
    It wasn't really a re-arming, as it was a new regiment. Polk had promised Davis the weapons if he would remain long enough for an important vote. The weapons were apparently already in stock, but not yet widely used. Omnedon (talk) 13:01, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Governor Brown of Mississippi appointed Davis to take the place of Senator Jesse Speight" - was this to the state or federal senate?
    Speight was a United States senator. Omnedon (talk) 03:46, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He became a regent of the Smithsonian Institution, served on the Committee on Military Affairs, and was made a member of the Library Committee." - when?
    December 1848. Omnedon (talk) 14:10, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Regarding Cuba, Davis declared that it "must be ours" to "increase the number of slaveholding constituencies."" - when?
    1848, as stated earlier in the paragraph; I haven't been able to find a specific date. Omnedon (talk) 12:20, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why did Narciso López select Davis to lead a military campaign in Cuba?
    He had already contacted General Worth, who died before deciding whether or not to lead the expedition. Davis was known to be interested in Cuba and concerned about the presence of a Spanish holding so near to the United States. However, it might be original research to assume that this was the reason why Lopez next approached Davis. Lopez also approached Lee at Davis' suggestion, but Lee also turned down the offer. Omnedon (talk) 15:06, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Senate made Davis chairman of the Committee on Military Affairs" - when?
    December 3, 1849. Omnedon (talk) 15:06, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "When his term expired he was elected to the same seat (by the Mississippi legislature, as the constitution mandated at the time)." - when was this?
    December 29, 1849. Omnedon (talk) 15:35, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In this capacity, Davis gave Congress four annual reports (in December of each year)" - was the routine reporting really his most important achievement in the position? It doesn't seem worth mentioning to be honest.
    It isn't claimed that this was his most important achievement. However, there are a few other items I've found that can be mentioned in this section. Omnedon (talk) 12:22, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He promoted the Gadsden Purchase of today's southern Arizona from Mexico." - how did he do this, and what was his motivation? (was this related to his official role as the secretary of war, or his long-standing support of expanding the US?)
    The immediate reason was that it would have provided an easier route for the railroad, which of course was important for expansion. Omnedon (talk) 18:24, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He also increased the size of the regular army from 11,000 to 15,000" - why was this considered necessary?
    It was not considered large enough to do all that was required of it. Omnedon (talk) 18:24, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The material on Davis opposing secession comes out of nowhere in the "Return to Senate" section - I'd suggest including some historical context to explain why he was taking up the issue
    Agreed. I've added some context, and a few more details. Omnedon (talk) 20:17, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    "Nominally serving in the Senate" seems a misnomer - he was still a senator, even if he wasn't able to make it to Washington Nick-D (talk) 09:59, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Agreed -- fixed. Omnedon (talk) 12:10, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Davis was chosen partly because he was a well-known and experienced moderate who had served in a president's cabinet. In meetings of his own Mississippi legislature, Davis had argued against secession, but when a majority of the delegates opposed him, he gave in." - should this be in the previous section?
    Second sentence was misplaced chronologically, yes. And in terms of the previous section, that sentence would be somewhat redundant, as it already indicates that he was not in favor of secession. Omnedon (talk) 23:25, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Davis had a very small circle of military advisers, and largely made the main strategic decisions on his own (or approved those suggested by Lee)" - this sentence is confusing: it mainly argues that that Davis acted as the supreme war leader with few advisers, but the material in the brackets then contradicts this by saying that he also rubber stamped Lee's proposals
    I don't see this as contradictory. It's true that Davis preferred to manage things directly, but he also had a close relationship with Lee and respected his views. However, I can see that some might interpret the phrase in parentheses as rubber-stamping. I'll clarify this. Omnedon (talk) 01:18, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He attempted strategic offensives when he felt that military success would both shake Northern self-confidence and strengthen the peace movements there. The campaigns met defeat at Antietam (1862) and Gettysburg (1863)" - what about the Confederate Heartland Offensive?
    I've mentioned this in that paragraph, and am in the process of finding a good reference to cover it. Omnedon (talk) 15:21, 5 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Once the war began, there were frequent changes to the cabinet." - why did this occur? - did Davis sack under-performers (real or perceived), or did they resign? (or both)
    I've added some details on the reasons for some of these changes. Omnedon (talk) 01:49, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Is it correct to call Toombs an "advisor"? He seems to have held a cabinet position.
    The reference uses the term; particularly given Davis' tendency to involve himself directly in various matters, this seems accurate. Omnedon (talk) 12:10, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Separately, the issue of slavery did not sit well with many European countries" - this seems an understatement given the issue's importance in the UK (probably the most important potential source of international support)
    This has been strengthened. Omnedon (talk) 01:49, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's probably also worth noting that Davis did a poor job of choosing representatives in Europe - Amanda Foreman's book A World on Fire provides some rather pointed analysis of this
    I will search my sources for more details on this. Do you have easy access to the Foreman book? If so, is there any chance you'd care to contribute something on this subject? Omnedon (talk) 15:14, 5 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I'll add something Nick-D (talk) 09:59, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I just searched the book (I have an e-book version), and couldn't find this. I think that it's in there somewhere, but it's not so obvious. There's some criticism of Davis' "King Cotton Diplomacy" here, and the other Disunion articles are well worth checking. Nick-D (talk) 09:43, 13 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Davis gave speeches to soldiers and politicians but largely ignored the common people and thereby failed to harness Confederate nationalism by directing the energies of the people into winning the war" - this sentence is a bit complex and wordy
    Agreed -- modified. Omnedon (talk) 00:30, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Taxes were very low in the Confederacy compared to the Union" - the previous paragraph says that income tax was higher in the south
    I'm not sure why there were conflicting statements, but the initial statement you quote is correct regarding the earlier days of the war. Later, more taxes were implemented, but there were various taxes, and they raised a relatively small percentage of Confederate revenue. I have tweaked this area, and will add a bit more detail as well. Omnedon (talk) 00:44, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "Final days of the Confederacy" section seems over-detailed compared to the very high-level treatment of the rest of the war and Davis' travels. I was surprised to not see anything on the decision to arm slaves in which Davis played a role.
    The war itself is well-covered in various other articles. As to the "Final days" section, this deals with events in which Davis was directly involved, including his flight and capture. I will see what can be added about the arming of slaves; that probably is worthy of mention. Omnedon (talk) 22:58, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure if the coverage of the war really establishes how weak a position the CSA was in due to the North's much greater population and economic capacity (not to mention its effective navy), and the resultant need for either risky offensive operations or a grinding defensive to end the war with a negotiated peace with someone other than Lincoln (which came fairly close in 1864). Adding this material could be used to put Davis' actions, and his failings, into perspective: he faced a very difficult situation, and made things worse overall.
    I've added a paragraph that describes the disparity between the North and South in terms of resources. At the end of the "Strategic failures" section, your last sentence is covered. Omnedon (talk) 21:54, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, can more be said about how Davis saw his role? Was his decision to focus on the military side of his responsibilities due to his background or personal preferences, or was it forced upon him?
    Davis wanted to be a general, not the president, and due to his military background tended to focus on military matters. It was his preference to deal with those matters himself, and he did not delegate well. Omnedon (talk) 15:12, 5 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • On that topic, when discussing the comparisons of Lincoln and Davis you could also note that historians regard Lincoln (a self-taught amateur in military affairs) as being a much superior military leader than Davis, despite Davis' extensive professional training and experience. I think that I've read some commentary arguing that Davis had a much-inflated view of his abilities as a military commander during the Civil War.
    The comparison between Lincoln and Davis as military leaders was mentioned in the last paragraph of "Strategic failures"; I've added a bit more detail. Omnedon (talk) 19:16, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "but this treatment continued for some months until he was finally given better quarters" - when was this change made?
    I've been able to confirm from multiple sources that this was in the autumn, but no specific date is given. Omnedon (talk) 01:05, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In December 1868 the court rejected a motion to nullify the indictment" - which court?
    It was a federal court. Omnedon (talk) 01:12, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • What were Lost Cause ceremonies? Were these events given specifically in honour of Davis, or more general commemorations of the Confederacy?
    In general, the Lost Cause ceremonies were held for many years after the war and helped the South deal with their defeat. As to these particular ones, I've not been able to determine if they were given in Davis' honor, but we do know they were events at which Davis appeared. Context suggests that the events would have occurred anyway. I've added a sentence that gives a bit of context to the Lost Cause. Omnedon (talk) 22:49, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we know what disease(s) resulted in Davis' death?
    It was diagnosed as acute bronchitis complicated by malaria. Omnedon (talk) 01:34, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Have the various memorials to Davis received any opposition?
    I've done some checking and haven't found much on this. Most memorials to Davis date from a century ago or more. My guess is that a modern memorial to Davis would receive some opposition, but that's speculation. The road renaming in Virginia is mentioned in the "Legacy" section, and there was disagreement about that as described in the citation. Some memorials are lasting by their very nature; but it is not uncommon for things that are named for famous people (such as roads) to be renamed later. Not quite sure how to address this further. Omnedon (talk) 15:06, 5 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    This 2002 NY Times story discusses opposition to naming a highway in Washington state after Davis. There was also recently debate over removing his name from a park in Memphis [42], and this 2008 story notes opposition to erecting a statue of Davis. Nick-D (talk) 09:43, 13 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    This is all excellent material; I appreciate you finding it. I've added a paragraph that deals with these issues, which I hope will help with the following item as well. Omnedon (talk) 11:28, 13 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ending the article with fairly unimportant material on stamps seems a bit disappointing. A "legacy and modern perceptions"-type section which discusses how he's seen by historians and the general public would be more satisfactory. Nick-D (talk) 08:08, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with your initial statement, and I've reordered this section; the paragraph about the restoration of his full citizenship seemed more appropriate. As for the views of historians, these are mentioned in various places throughout the article. Omnedon (talk) 00:54, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with indopug's suggestion below that the article should end with a section like those in the Nixon, Reagan and Truman articles which provides a summary of modern historians' overall assessment of Davis. Nick-D (talk) 09:59, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I will work up something on this. I don't wish to rehash material already quoted, but I suppose you are both correct that a summary would be helpful. Omnedon (talk) 12:28, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I've added a brief summary. As for the view of the general public, I'm not sure how to go about this, as it seems that this would be difficult to cite. Omnedon (talk) 13:14, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    This material needs to be referenced, and is a bit on the brief side. Nick-D (talk) 09:43, 13 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I guess I felt that it had all been covered already earlier in the article, which is why I did not think to include references; but I will do that. I will see how it can be expanded. Omnedon (talk) 10:31, 13 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am confident I can make these improvements, but it will take a bit of time. I'll get started on it. Thanks for the input. Omnedon (talk) 01:22, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Having begun on this, I appreciate your detailed and constructive criticism. These improvements will definitely make for a better article. Omnedon (talk) 02:44, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No worries. I'm hold off responding until you finish tweaking the article, but please let me know if I can clarify any of my comments. Nick-D (talk) 11:46, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've now addressed all of the issues. Do you have any other input, whether on new issues or further thoughts on the existing points? Omnedon (talk) 15:30, 5 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support I've just marked some material as needing a citation, but this should be easily done. As all my comments are now resolved I'm pleased to support the article's promotion to FA status. Nick-D (talk) 01:26, 20 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! I've cited the burial in Hollywood Cemetery. Originally, there was a claim that his tenure as President of the CSA was not listed on his monument, but it turns out that it is listed, just on another side of the monument from some of his other accomplishments. Hence, the whole sentence become somewhat superfluous. Omnedon (talk) 01:45, 20 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - please avoid using templates like "Done" or similar graphical templates per FA-guidelines, as they possibly slow down page load time or cause problems in the FA-nomination list. GermanJoe (talk) 06:55, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I was unaware of that; I've removed the template. Omnedon (talk) 12:12, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment the Legacy section, putting it bluntly, is a bit of a bore. It's basically just minutiae—stamps, roads, libraries, birthdays. On the other hand, a historical reevaluation, ala the Nixon, Reagan or Truman FAs, would be of much greater interest to the general reader (indeed, they are the most interesting sections in those articles). Also, as Nick-D said above, you could end the article on a high note.—indopug (talk) 06:40, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I've already reordered that section so as to end with the paragraph on the restoration of his citizenship. I found the Carter statement about "last act of reconciliation in the Civil War" interesting. I'll see what I can find re a historical reevaluation, but it will not be quite the same; Davis is much more distant in history than the others. His evaluation by historians is mentioned throughout the article as well. Omnedon (talk) 12:24, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
also, you should crop the infobox pic. Too much blank space; the main purpose of the infobox pic is to be vale to identify him.—indopug (talk) 06:46, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Good point -- I've used another version of that image already on Commons that does not have the empty space at the top. Omnedon (talk) 12:24, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Quick comment: Why so many citations in the lead? See WP:LEADCITE. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:07, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed several that are probably not needed in the lede. Omnedon (talk) 19:46, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 21:15, 15 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support. The article appears well-structured and well-formed, and succeeds in covering the subject in a suitably thorough and informative way without becoming overly verbose. I see too that the smaller particulars raised above have also now been addressed. Good work! ╠╣uw [talk] 13:07, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support with a few minor comments, having stumbled here from an FAC of my own.

  • In the opening sentence, given the ambiguity of American, perhaps clarify "United States"? I like to keep a worldwide focus for FAC's, and American/United States is one of the issues I worry about. Otherwise, nothing in the first sentence definitively says it's about the USA (since you don't spell out American Civil War, which I don't mind if you would clarify the country)
    Yes, you're right; I've clarified that. Omnedon (talk) 19:00, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • When did Davis's paternal grandparents arrive in the US?
    I've narrowed this down to the early 1700s. I'll see if other sources have more specifics. Omnedon (talk) 19:04, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Abraham Lincoln was born 8 months later, less than 100 miles (160 km) to the northeast in Hodgenville, Kentucky." - while interesting, I wonder, is it trivia? IDK, torn on this one.
    I know what you mean; but personally I feel it is more than trivia, since the two men ended up being leaders of opposing nations. It was an interesting early link, I felt. Omnedon (talk) 19:09, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    True. Alright, I'm OK with it being there :) --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:13, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1813 Davis " - perhaps add a comma?
    Done. Omnedon (talk) 18:51, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In addition to bouts with malaria, battle wounds from fighting in the Mexican–American War, and a chronic eye infection that made it impossible for him to endure bright light, he also suffered from trigeminal neuralgia, a nerve disorder that causes severe pain in the face." - should probably be split up, maybe with semicolon?
    Yes, good point. I will break it up. Omnedon (talk) 18:51, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • " of $100,000 (worth more than $2,000,000 in 2010[61])" - why in 2010 USD?
    This was added a while ago, hence the 2010; I will change it to 2013. The estimate is cited but it isn't possible to come up with a precise figure due to many factors, so "more than $2,000,000" is still quite valid. Omnedon (talk) 18:51, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've used a template for this in the past, {{Formatprice|{{Inflation|US|100000|1849}}}}, which gives you this: 3.66 million. --Coemgenus (talk) 00:53, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Good article overall. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:26, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking the time to review it! Omnedon (talk) 19:15, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Def! I figured, I can't just nom something for FAC and not review others, especially when there is a topic as important as this up! Thanks for the quick replies. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:18, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:04, 3 November 2013 (UTC) [43].[reply]

Volubilis

Nominator(s): Prioryman (talk) 07:30, 24 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Having already taken this article to GA status, I think it would be a good candidate for FAC. There is currently only a handful of Morocco-related FAs and I think this one would be a good addition to the collection, especially given the importance of Volubilis as a World Heritage Site. Prioryman (talk) 07:30, 24 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Also, the random BOLD in the text is distracting. It should be plain text. — Crisco 1492 (talk)

07:41, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

  • Expanded abbreviations of inscription. What is the usual way to handle this? Maybe there should be a footnote with the actual text, or the expansions could be indicated in parentheses. A curiosity - Aurelius is spelt "Avrellio" in the Latin - is the double L a Roman typo? Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:18, 24 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • "expanded to cover an area of"
  • "3rd century BC" Should the number to spelled out?
  • "The city lay within the territory of the kingdom "
  • "After the annexation of Mauretania by Claudius in 44 AD" → "After Claudius annexed Mauretania in 44 AD"
  • "It is also mentioned by Pliny the Elder" What did he say about it?
  • "The city became the administrative centre of the Roman province of Mauretania Tingitana." When?
  • "Around 280 AD" Please check throughout the article.
  • " centuries after it was lost to Rome had relinquished control of it. By the time the Arabs had arrived in 708, they found the city"
  • I don't think "relinquished control" really works - it makes it sound like the Romans voluntarily surrendered the city, which they plainly didn't. I've changed this wording to "after the end of Roman control". I've made the other suggested change. Prioryman (talk) 20:16, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "fled to Morocco after escaping from Syria following " → "escaped to Morocco from Syria following "
  • "He married Ishaq's daughter, fathering a son, Idris II" Sounds awkward, perhaps "He married Ishaq's daughter and fathered a son, Idris II"
  • "but was assassinated in Volubilis in 791." Why and by whom?
  • "excavations at the site had their origins began decades earlier"
  • "Muslim Moroccans" → "Moroccan Muslims"
  • No Dablinks.
  • No dead links.
  • Images have the appropriate licenses.
  • Remove triumphal arch duplicate link.
  • The images lack alt text -- you might consider adding them to aid visually-impaired readers.

I see no major problems with the article. Happy to support. --Sp33dyphil ©hatontributions 23:50, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support - a fine and interesting article, and all comments seem to have been addressed. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:27, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Squeamish Ossifrage

resolved clutter

Mostly looking at reference formatting in this pass:

  • Everyone's favorite FAC complaint: you've got the wrong little horizontal lines for date ranges throughout the Bibliography (I think they're okay in the Footnotes). They should be en-dashes (–).
  • You usually, but do not always, include publisher location for books. Sometimes that's actually unavailable, but need to check Carrasco, Fentress, Halsall, and Wright refs.
  • I've added a publisher location for Carrasco, Fentress is unnecessary now (see below) and in the cases of Halsall and Wright it was, I thought, unnecessary to give the location given that they are university presses (Cambridge and Chicago). In previous FACs I've been advised that I don't need to add locations in the case of university presses. Prioryman (talk) 20:43, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure what the standard is, but I don't usually see UK locations with their county cited, as you have in the Davies ref. Perhaps that should just read "Chalfont St Peter, UK" instead? I tend to omit publication locations in my articles, so someone else may want to chime in here.
  • Something is broken in your template for the Fentress reference. Also, that work is OCLC 792763664.
  • I've taken it out - I can't find any references to it in the article. I suspect I probably included something that was referenced to it and later removed it, but forgot to take out the bibliography reference as well. Prioryman (talk) 20:43, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Probably not strictly required, but if there's an original publication date for the Grimal work you cite in translation, that could be included (I'm not able to determine it, as I do not have access to the source at the moment, and the Grimal work went through many editions in French between 1954–2001).
  • Did you reference the original 1889 publication for the Harris work? If so, it's OCLC 249376810. If you're working from the 2011 reprint (ISBN 9781848855731), the reference should reflect that.
  • I believe the correct OCLC for the Shabeeny reference is 165576157.
  • I'm not sure the correct OCLC for the Windus source. I assume you're working off the digital copy, which is OCLC 642363595, but the big concern here is that WorldCat doesn't seem to agree with you about the publisher or publication location, so either my OCLC number is wrong, or you've got an error in this entry.
  • Nope, I'm working off an original hard copy. The publisher and publication location are as given on the frontispiece and in the British Library catalogue. This is most likely a case of WorldCat being wrong, or at least of them having incomplete information about this book. Prioryman (talk) 20:43, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • WorldCat's listings for this were a mess to wade through. Doesn't help that it was apparently nearly simultaneously printed in three countries, but I finally found the entry that matches your material. OCLC 64409967. Sorry for my initially sloppy checking there. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 21:11, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • No problems with the Wharton source's OCLC, though: it's 359173.
  • And then there's the www.sitedevolubilis.org site. For one thing, you call one of the pages "House of the Knight" in the Footnotes, but "House of the Cavalier" in the References. But more importantly, why is this a reliable source? It's a very nice-looking resource, but it appears to be a product of Andante Travels, so I could use a little convincing as to its reliability.
  • It's sponsored by Andante but not authored by them, quite clearly; see the credits page at [45], which indicates that the authors are professional archaeologists and conservation officials. UCL is University College, London and INSAP is the Moroccan government's Institut National des Sciences de l'Archéologie et du Patrimoine. It's the official website of the archaeological site - I found out about the website when I was out there. As for the naming, this is a bit of confusion (not on my part) between English and French. The English-language sources use "House of the Knight" pretty much universally. The inscription at the site itself is only in French and refers to the "Maison du Chevalier". The website has rather unhappily split the difference and translated "Chevalier" as "Knight", in contrast to the more conventional English name. Prioryman (talk) 20:43, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • You have several pretty solid print sources here, but I can't help but notice the lack of any scholarly journal coverage for what's a fairly significant regional archaeological site. A quicky perusal of literature gets me sources in the Oxford Journal of Archaeology and the Journal of Cultural Heritage. Is there any material there which the books cited do not yet cover?
  • I looked, but the sources I found were very specialised, focusing on very small-scale or specialised topics - not very useful for an article that is intended to be a general overview. 20:43, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
  • I'll agree the major journal sources are fairly specific and technical. That said, one of those sources (Daniels, Robert (1995). "Punic Influence in the Domestic Architecture of Roman Volubilis (Morocco)". Oxford Journal of Archaeology. 14 (1): 79–95. doi:10.1111/j.1468-0092.1995.tb00057.x.) seems to have some comments about the style of the local architecture that might be worthwhile. I'll agree that there's not much to do with the analysis of the origins of the marbles used in the site's construction (Antonelli, Fabrizio; Lazzarini, Lorenzo; Cancelliere, Stefano; Dessandier, David (2009). "Volubilis (Meknes, Morocco): Archaeometric study of the white and coloured marbles imported in the Roman age". Journal of Cultural Heritage. 10 (1): 116–123. doi:10.1016/j.culher.2008.04.006. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |last-author-amp= ignored (|name-list-style= suggested) (help)) unless you feel that it's worth remarking on from how far away the Romans shipped stone to build the place. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 21:11, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I had a look at both, but to be honest I didn't think there was much worth including. I note your point about Romans shipping stone long distances but this isn't unique to Volubilis - it's certainly a testament to the scale of the Roman trading network but by no means something which is so exceptional that it deserves a special mention, in my opinion. Prioryman (talk) 11:41, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try to get a chance to dig into the article structure and prose a little later. Neutral for now regarding promotion. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 21:35, 24 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • The reference formatting is in a much better place now, and I've had a chance to look at some of the rest of the article:
  • Overlinking. There is some. Morocco and Meknes are each linked twice in the lead. In the body, duplicate links (and there location) include: Meknes (After the Romans), French Morocco (Excavation, restoration and UNESCO listing, 2nd appearance, "The first excavations..."), Idris I (Excavation, restoration and UNESCO listing), basilica (Public buildings), Baal (Public buildings), triumphal arch (Triumphal arch), Julia Domna (translation). Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 14:32, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I might consider only including the arch translation in the article body, and providing a footnote with the Latin text; for most readers, that's a big block of Latin to encounter in text. Also, is there a source you're citing for that text, and especially for the translation (if you didn't do it yourself, in which case, that's fine). Stylistically, I'm not sure the blockquotes should be bolded like that. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 14:32, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The usual style does seem to be to include the original text (in bold) and the translation in the article body. See e.g. Pyramid of Cestius, Piraeus Lion and Hällestad Runestones, to give a few random examples. I've not found examples of the original text being relegated to a footnote. The Latin text is just a transcription of the inscription and is additionally recorded in the Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum. I'm not aware of there being an "official" English translation; the one in this article was a group effort by members of Wikipedia:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome, aided by the fact that most of the inscription is a set of stock titles and formulae which are well-known from other inscriptions. Large parts of it are virtually identical to an inscription dedicated to the same emperor in 216, a year before the arch inscription, in Bremenium in Northumberland (for which I do have a published English translation). Prioryman (talk) 18:54, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wouldn't have done it this way if I was writing the article, I don't think. But, hey, clearly, other articles have formatted similar things in this way and met with consensus approval. So, I've got no actionable objection here! Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 19:24, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speaking of bold, the Houses and palaces section starts bolding structure names, which the article didn't do previously. That's probably not MOS-compliant, but more importantly, it makes that section look as though it were written separately. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 14:32, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I can't find anything that I'd consider a fatal barrier to promotion at this point, and all my significant concerns have been long since addressed. I'm sorry that I didn't get back to this sooner to make note of that, in fact. But, in the proud tradition of finding silly little things at FAC:

  • From Notable buildings: "58 oil-pressing complexes have so far been discovered in Volubilis." From WP:MOSNUM: "Numbers that begin a sentence are spelled out, since using figures risks the period being read as a decimal point or abbreviation mark; it is often better to recast the sentence than to simply change format, which may produce other problems..." Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 19:24, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by Simon Burchell

Lead

  • In the late 8th century the Idrisid dynasty, traditionally seen as the founders of Morocco, was founded there. - this reads a little clumsy with the switch between singular "dynasty" and plural "founders". Perhaps "traditionally seen as the dynasty that founded Morocco" or something similar? Simon Burchell (talk) 18:59, 19 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Foundation and Roman occupation

After the Romans

  • Volubilis remained the capital of the region but by the 8th century, Islam had taken hold - I'm not the best for perfect grammar but the comma here seems odd to me. I think it needs another: "Volubilis remained the capital of the region but, by the 8th century, Islam had taken hold", or dropping altogether. Simon Burchell (talk) 21:53, 19 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Excavation, restoration and UNESCO listing

Thanks for sorting those - more to follow. Simon Burchell (talk) 18:16, 20 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

City layout and infrastructure

I'm linking various terms throughout - you might want to double-check them, on the whole I'm linking to Roman subjects and in one or two cases it might not be correct to do so. Simon Burchell (talk) 20:44, 19 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Notable buildings

  • The majority of the 2nd para, from Olive oil was central to the life of the city... would be better moved into a separate section, perhaps called Commerce, and moved much earlier in the article. I had been wondering about trade routes, commerce etc. long before getting this far - and these details don't sit comfortably under "notable buildings. Simon Burchell (talk) 16:50, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, fair point. I've moved this para to the previous section to sit alongside the content on infrastructure, as I think the city's olive mills and shops would count as part of its commercial infrastructure. Prioryman (talk) 22:57, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm afraid that wouldn't be consistent with WP:INTEGRITY; keeping the citation close to the fact it supports makes it clearer which facts are being cited to which source. At any rate, this is how I've done it for other FAs and it's not been an issue there. Prioryman (talk) 22:57, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Whilst you are right that these units may not be as familiar, I'm not really convinced that it is necessary to spell them out when the other units aren't. However, this is a minor nitpick and I'll not force the point. Simon Burchell (talk) 09:19, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe it's usually treated as a loanword in English (like fungus or tibia, I suppose). The convention in all of the works I've consulted has been to not italicise it, so I've followed the same convention. Prioryman (talk) 22:57, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • It appears to have been built on top of or converted from an earlier Punic temple, possibly dedicated to Baal. needs additional punctuation. Perhaps "It appears to have been built on top of, or converted from, an earlier Punic temple; this may have been dedicated to Baal." Simon Burchell (talk) 17:11, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Houses and palaces

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:05, 3 November 2013 (UTC) [46].[reply]

Menominee Tribe v. United States

Nominator(s): GregJackP Boomer! 00:32, 18 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe that it meets the criteria for FA. It has been peer reviewed and had a GOCE completed. Please note that it uses the Bluebook citation style. This citation style uses standardized abbreviations, such as "N.Y. Times" for The New York Times, and has specific typeface formatting requirements. Please review those standards before making style or formatting changes. GregJackP Boomer! 00:32, 18 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

For 1825_Prairie_du_Chien_Line.jpg, with all due respect, how would I have a clue on what sources CJLippert used to create the image and how is it relevant? The image is properly labeled as CC-BY-SA, which is what is required for FA. I fixed the copyright tag on the ChiefOshkosh.jpg to PD-US-1923 per the notes. GregJackP Boomer! 18:58, 22 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As he's still active, you could ask. It's relevant because a) if he used a base map to create the image (as many people do), that should be identified, and b) the factual content should be verifiable using reliable sources. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:02, 22 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's an image issue, not an article issue. The image is properly labeled as CC-BY-SA, which is what is required under the FA criteria. I AGF that CJL created and labeled the image appropriately. I'm not going to do research on the issue, but if you have a question on the image, feel free to raise it on the image page. GregJackP Boomer! 20:28, 22 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
With respect, if you're choosing to include the image in the article, it becomes an article issue. We need to be able to verify that the boundaries shown are correctly placed and supported by reliable sources on the subject. Also, if a pre-existing base map was used in creating the image, it needs to be identified so its licensing can be verified. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:00, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That not what the criteria states. The criteria states "It has images and other media, where appropriate, with succinct captions, and acceptable copyright status. Images included follow the image use policy. Non-free images or media must satisfy the criteria for inclusion of non-free content and be labeled accordingly." The image has both caption and alt text, and an acceptable copyright status. The image, as far as I can tell, follows the image use policy. It is not a "non-free" content, so that doesn't apply. If you have questions of the image creator, feel free to ask him, but I'm not going to do so. The image is properly labeled and licensed, which is all that is required. Regards, GregJackP Boomer! 01:41, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You can't tell whether the image follows the image use policy unless you know its basis. The criteria also states that specific attributes are "In addition to meeting the policies regarding content for all Wikipedia articles", which includes WP:V. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:06, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with your interpretation. Regards, GregJackP Boomer! 02:25, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose from Jim The FAC instructions say Nominators are expected to respond positively to constructive criticism and to make efforts to address objections promptly. The nominator has been asked to clarify the status of an image he/she has chosen to use in this article, which to me is the same as justifying a text source or web page as RS. The nominator could take one or more of the following actions

  • Contact the (still active) creator of the image to establish the sourcing
  • Withdraw the image (I've just had to do the same for an image which is probably OK but it can't be verified if the creator actually took the picture)
  • Replace the image with one of his/her own creation with appropriate base map and data sources

After 12 days there has been no sign that the nominator intends to respond constructively to Nikkimaria, and I think that will deter others from reviewing the article (as it did for me). I'm opposing on the basis that the nominator is unwilling to address concerns as required by the instructions Jimfbleak - talk to me? 09:53, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - the above is BS, but I have removed the image. The image requirements Nikkimaria has imposed are not in the FA requirements. I cited the policy and stated I disagreed with the interpretation. No one else commented on the interpretation, until today. In other words, I responded to her criticism and made efforts to address her objections. Responding positively does not mean that the nominator has to agree with all criticism nor take a single reviewers position as consensus. GregJackP Boomer! 11:20, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've struck my oppose. I think Nikkimaria is not alone in expecting maps at FAC to be sourced appropriately. I always make mine on the basis that they will be challenged if lacking data sources or base maps. Anyway, I'll look at the article. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:40, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Jim

I find it surprising that Americans can have different levels of citizenship, but that's not really relevant. OK, first pass Jimfbleak - talk to me?

  • Native American—link in lead?
  • 10 million acres.—conversion needed
  • President of the United States surveyed and sold the land—I'm sure this isn't to be taken literally, but neither do I understand what it means
  • current map breaks heading, looks bad.
  • complete acquiescence of Wisconsin—active or passive? Did they just overlook the situation or support the tribal actions?
  • single or double space between full stop and next sentence. Former is better, but you have both
  • tax liens—What is a lien? I have no idea what this means
  • US$300,000—not a big deal, but do you really need US in an article about, well, the US?
  • lobbied for a delay the termination until 1961,—missing word?
  • non-Indians—Since this doesn't seem to be a quote, shouldn't it be native Americans? To me, a non-Indian is someone who doesn't come from Delhi or Hyderabad.
  • to transfer to the state general criminal and civil—missing word(s)?
  • Claiborne also argued that whatever regulatory rights held by the federal government were transferred to the state of Wisconsin—" missing word(s)?
  • I'm not sure caps in refs are mos, although I can see why you have used them. It's not a helpful style of referencing (I had to search the text to find the Huhti that ref 2 referred to). However, I don't expect you to change this.
  • I've not checked the refs, and I want to have another read through. May be a couple of days Jimfbleak - talk to me? ~

Addressing:

  • Native American—link in lead?
Done. GregJackP Boomer! 16:18, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • 10 million acres.—conversion needed
Done. GregJackP Boomer! 16:25, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Up to you, but I preferred the original "millions" style to the strings of zeroes Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:13, 10 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done. GregJackP Boomer! 13:46, 10 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • President of the United States surveyed and sold the land—I'm sure this isn't to be taken literally, but neither do I understand what it means
Done. Reworded. GregJackP Boomer! 16:21, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Added "sold to settlers" - the tribe could hunt on the land until it was settled by farmers, etc. GregJackP Boomer! 13:46, 10 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • current map breaks heading, looks bad.
Done. GregJackP Boomer! 15:52, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • complete acquiescence of Wisconsin—active or passive? Did they just overlook the situation or support the tribal actions?
The state recognized the hunting and fishing rights of the tribe under the treaty and federal law, so did not interfere. It was also on reservation land, where the state did not have jurisdiction until the passage of Public Law 280, in 1953. GregJackP Boomer! 13:55, 10 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • single or double space between full stop and next sentence. Former is better, but you have both
I don't understand this comment. GregJackP Boomer! 13:55, 10 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sometimes you had a double space between the end of one sentence and the next, sometimes single. I've fixed these all to single now, which seemed to be in the majority and is also the preferred style Jimfbleak - talk to me? 17:28, 10 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • tax liens—What is a lien? I have no idea what this means
Fixed, wikilinked. GregJackP Boomer! 16:13, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • US$300,000—not a big deal, but do you really need US in an article about, well, the US?
I didn't think so, but got dinged on it in another article. Just let me know which way to go. GregJackP Boomer! 15:52, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As I say, not a big deal, but I'd drop it Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:13, 10 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done. GregJackP Boomer! 13:55, 10 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • lobbied for a delay the termination until 1961,—missing word?
Done. GregJackP Boomer! 14:03, 10 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • non-Indians—Since this doesn't seem to be a quote, shouldn't it be native Americans? To me, a non-Indian is someone who doesn't come from Delhi or Hyderabad.
The phrase "non-Indian" is widely used in federal Indian law (which, BTW, still uses the terms "Indian", "Indian country", etc.). See also Native American name controversy - a majority of Indians prefer the term "American Indian" over "Native American." I personally prefer Indian, but I am not going to get bent out of shape over it. GregJackP Boomer! 16:10, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • to transfer to the state general criminal and civil—missing word(s)?
Done. GregJackP Boomer! 14:03, 10 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Claiborne also argued that whatever regulatory rights held by the federal government were transferred to the state of Wisconsin—" missing word(s)?
Done. GregJackP Boomer! 14:03, 10 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure caps in refs are mos, although I can see why you have used them. It's not a helpful style of referencing (I had to search the text to find the Huhti that ref 2 referred to). However, I don't expect you to change this.
The style used is Bluebook, which has specific typeface requirements. For example, small caps are used for books, journal titles, and book authors. Italics are used for case names, chapter names, and article titles. Specific abbreviations are used, such as "N.Y. Times" for "The New York Times." Bluebook is pretty much standard for legal work, and is allowed by the MOS. (PS, I get this on a lot of reviews, not many are familiar with the style. If there are any specific questions on cites, I will be happy to answer them). GregJackP Boomer! 15:52, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've not checked the refs, and I want to have another read through. May be a couple of days

I'll mark these off as I get them done. GregJackP Boomer! 15:52, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment on "different levels of citizenship". Your surprise is not abnormal. Indians were not taxed (U.S. Const. art. I, § 2, cl. 3) and not U.S. citizens until 1924. Even then, they are citizens by statute (Indian Citizenship Act of 1924, 43 Stat. 253), not by right. Indians did not have the right to vote in many states until the 1960s, and are still widely discriminated against. GregJackP Boomer! 16:42, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The nearest we have here is equal status and additional support (like a TV station) for the Celtic languages in Wales and the Scottish island (although they were actively suppressed in the past), but they weren't the original inhabitants either... I've got to go and try to get a visa for India today, so further comments will be delayed Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:13, 10 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've struck a few and fixed the space. My trip to Birmingham took up most of the day so rest of review still to follow Jimfbleak - talk to me? 17:28, 10 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just one more point The Menominee Indian Tribe lived in the states of Wisconsin and Michigan for at least 10,000 years.[1][Note 1... "Anthropologists have surmised that the Menominee, an Algonquian-speaking tribe, may have been in the Wisconsin territory as far back as 10,000 years ago — How do they know what language was spoken in a pre-literate society? Only the Maya had writing in pre-Columbian America, and even that didn't go anything like so far back (I don't think that any language did). I also find it improbable that any cultural group stayed as an coherent single entity for ten millennia, especially when most of the time was before settled farming in most of the Old World, let alone the Americas. It's obviously likely that the area was inhabited by native Americans at that time, but it seems inherently improbable that a group of hunter gatherers (+seasonal farming?) would stay in the same place, with the same culture and known language for 10 millennia while the rest of the world moved on around them Jimfbleak - talk to me? 17:08, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that you are misreading the quote. The Menominee (which is presently an Algonquian-speaking tribe) may have been.... That's how I interpreted the sentence, not that they were saying that they knew what language family the tribe spoke 10,000 years ago. BTW, Algonquian is comparable to Germanic language family, of which English is a sub-group. There is no "Algonquian" language per se. GregJackP Boomer! 19:47, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I'll buy that Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:16, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
and ref 1 seems to be just a myth, with no more credibility than the stories of Adam and Eve or Beowulf. I can't see how this can possibly be an RS source for the statement when it quotes no anthropological sources whatsoever. It's pov, unsourced and improbable Jimfbleak - talk to me? 18:30, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Are you talking about the tribe's website? Or the other two works in Ref 1? Those both mention that anthropologists put the Menominee in Wisconsin and the upper peninsula of Michigan for 10,000 years, or from the end of the last ice age. "The Menominee are arguably the longest continuous residents of Wisconsin. According to the historian David Beck (2002), there is evidence of Menominee presence for at least several thousand years." Norbert Ross, Doug Medin, & Doug Cox, Epistemological Models and Culture Conflict: Menominee and Euro-American Hunters in Wisconsin 35 Ethos 478, 481 (2008); "The Menominee represent Wisconsin’s earliest residents, having occupied the area for more than 10,000 years.", Gary Sandefur, Miguel Ceballos, & Susan Mannon, Land and Population on the Indian Reservation of Wisconsin: Past, Present, and Future, Land Tenure Center, Univ. Wisconsin—Madison, Sept. 2000; John-Brian Paprock & Teresa Peneguy Paprock, Sacred Sites of Wisconsin 77 (2001). I could go on, it is really very well established. Let me know if I should change refs or rephrase, but the material is accurate. GregJackP Boomer! 22:28, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In the text, you state their 10,000 yr existence in the area as a bald, unqualified fact. That's how it's presented in ref 1, but that ref is clearly not RS (might be better as an EL rather than a ref), and all you can say from that is that the tribe believes this, rather than it's provably true. I can't access the other refs, but your note 1 says Anthropologists have surmised, which falls some way short of the certainty implied by your sentence. Similarly The Menominee are arguably. I would suggest that you tweak the wording to make it clear it's a belief and/or possibility. Alternatively, if you stick with your text, give us a sentence or two to explain on what basis we know this as a fact. Sorry to get bogged down on one sentence, but this is FAC, and I need to get this clear in my mind. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:16, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to read: "The Menominee Indian Tribe may have lived in the states of Wisconsin and Michigan for the last 10,000 years." GregJackP Boomer! 14:00, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support we got off to a shaky start, but I'm happy with the text as it stands. I still think that ref 1 may run into trouble if it's taken to be referencing a fact rather than a belief, but I'll leave that to others Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:50, 13 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much for taking the time to review this. I appreciate your effort. GregJackP Boomer! 14:48, 13 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Wehwalt

  • Support Comment-leaning support. Just a few things:
Tribal termination:
  • "The state of Wisconsin was concerned that with no industry for the tribe to tax, it would be responsible" it is not clear to me to whom "it" refers
  • The Sanapaw case: I do not find all of what is attributed to footnote 31 present in the source (which I've reviewed on FastCase, the legal research site the Virginia State Bar uses and I have access through them). Specifically, I do not find evidence of an acquittal. The case is fairly opaque on lower court history … can you provide an additional source on this?
Federal Court of Claims
  • "the current reservation" Not current any more, I'm gathering. Rephrase, perhaps?
  • I think you should insert dates for the Court of Claims decision, and the decision to grant certiorari.
Argument
  • "Charles A. Hobbs" if nothing else can be said about him, at least list his location, which should be after the syllabus.
  • The date the case was initially argued should be included.
  • Somewhere along the time, Marshall's recusal should be mentioned and, if possible, explained. I imagine it was because he was solicitor general before Johnson appointed him, and the case had been bouncing around long enough he had a conflict of interest.
Subsequent developments
  • "It has been used in college courses to explain tribal sovereignty rights, even if the tribe has been terminated—as the Menominee tribe was" I'm with you up to the comma, then the sentence seems to go astray.
  • "The opinion has been noted as a leading case in holding that under normal trustee rules, the Federal government acted as a trustee" Presumably in safeguarding Indian property (ha!) but the sentence needs a bit more.
Law reviews
  • "over 200" can this be updated to 2013, since a Lexis/Nexis search is involved?
Restoration
  • Why is the cited act italicized when previous acts mention have not been?
Well done. Once these are taken care of I will almost certainly support.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:25, 15 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Addressing:

Tribal termination:
  • "The state of Wisconsin was concerned that with no industry for the tribe to tax, it would be responsible" it is not clear to me to whom "it" refers
Done. Changed "it" to "the state." GregJackP Boomer! 02:38, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Sanapaw case: I do not find all of what is attributed to footnote 31 present in the source (which I've reviewed on FastCase, the legal research site the Virginia State Bar uses and I have access through them). Specifically, I do not find evidence of an acquittal. The case is fairly opaque on lower court history … can you provide an additional source on this?
"The court, however, found defendants not guilty because they were enrolled members of the Menominee Indian Tribe and the state had no jurisdiction to enforce its hunting and fishing regulations against them." State v. Sanapaw, 21 Wis. 2d 377, 378-79, 124 N.W.2d 41, 42 (1963) disapproved of by Menominee Tribe of Indians v. United States, 391 U.S. 404, 88 S. Ct. 1705, 20 L. Ed. 2d 697 (1968). From both Westlaw and Lexis, in the syllabus section of the opinion, immediately after the headnotes. The state was given leave to pursue a writ of error following the acquittal. I don't have access to FastCase. GregJackP Boomer! 02:38, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(not an actionable comment) What interested me is any proceeding happening after the acquittal! Wisconsin must have odd laws.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:54, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Federal Court of Claims
  • "the current reservation" Not current any more, I'm gathering. Rephrase, perhaps?
Done. GregJackP Boomer! 02:47, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think you should insert dates for the Court of Claims decision, and the decision to grant certiorari.
Done. GregJackP Boomer! 02:47, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Argument
  • "Charles A. Hobbs" if nothing else can be said about him, at least list his location, which should be after the syllabus.
Done. GregJackP Boomer! 02:56, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The date the case was initially argued should be included.
Done. GregJackP Boomer! 02:56, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Somewhere along the time, Marshall's recusal should be mentioned and, if possible, explained. I imagine it was because he was solicitor general before Johnson appointed him, and the case had been bouncing around long enough he had a conflict of interest.
Done. Good point - he recused from 98 of the 171 cases the court heard that year, for the reason you noted. GregJackP Boomer! 03:13, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Subsequent developments
  • "It has been used in college courses to explain tribal sovereignty rights, even if the tribe has been terminated—as the Menominee tribe was" I'm with you up to the comma, then the sentence seems to go astray.
Done. GregJackP Boomer! 03:13, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The opinion has been noted as a leading case in holding that under normal trustee rules, the Federal government acted as a trustee" Presumably in safeguarding Indian property (ha!) but the sentence needs a bit more.
Removed. I can't remember what I was getting at, and the reference didn't help either. So I figure if I don't know, it probably doesn't belong in the article. GregJackP Boomer! 03:13, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Law reviews
  • "over 200" can this be updated to 2013, since a Lexis/Nexis search is involved?
Done. Over 300, Westlaw. GregJackP Boomer! 03:27, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Restoration
  • Why is the cited act italicized when previous acts mention have not been?
It apparently was done during the copy edit, and I didn't catch it, probably because everything else he fixed was great work. Fixed. GregJackP Boomer! 03:31, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for reviewing this - I really appreciate it! GregJackP Boomer! 03:32, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not a problem. I had been eying it as a Supreme Court case that I should probably do because of Bakke but between a busy travel schedule the past month and spending a lot of time writing an article, it sort of slipped through the cracks.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:52, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Hamiltonstone

  • "During this period, the Menominee enjoyed complete freedom to regulate hunting and fishing on the reservation, with the complete acquiescence of Wisconsin". Can this be copyedited to avoid the repetition of "complete"?
  • "...for two reasons. The tribe was opposed to termination for a number of reasons" - repetitive, and judging by the subsequent list, is it not two, but "a number of" (which most readers i think would think meant more than two).
  • I had trouble following the paragraph that begins "The Court of Claims had to determine whether the Menominee Termination Act had taken away that right." I think this is at least in part because of the different terms used to refer to the same legal questions, ie "whether the Menominee Termination Act had taken away that right", then "denied the claim" then "had not been abrogated". Then I was a little confused by this: "two witnesses who stated that the law would not affect hunting and fishing rights acquired by treaty, but would abrogate any such rights acquired by statute" What is meant by "the law" - do you mean "the Act"? Finally, have i correctly understood this court decision: the court denied compensation because, it argued, hunting and fishing rights had not been taken away? In other words, the decision amounted to a contradition (but not an over-ruling) of the Wisconsin Supreme Court decision? If so, maybe need to spell that out to more explcitly set the scene for the case going to a higher court.
  • "...as he had been the Solicitor General the previous year and had participated in the government's preparation of the case". I'm guessing that an American might know that there is only one Solicitor General, and that it is a federal office (yes?), but since the rest of the para is about what the Wisconsin government was asked to do, this particular sentence should specify which government's preparation of the case (I'm assuming federal). Otherwise, ignorant people like me who surmise that each state has a Solicitor General could then conclude it is a reference to the preparation of the Wisconsin state's brief.
  • "reargument". Wikilink? It appears to have some particular procedural meaning.
  • Is there a suitable wikilink available for "reserved tribal rights"?
  • "The Act signaled the end of the termination era". Minor tweak and consistency question. An earlier sentence in this para refers to "the termination act" (all lower case). I suggest this later sentence should read "The Restoration Act", since both acts are mentioned in the para, but can you also look at the use of capitalisation of the word "act"?

Great article in general. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:14, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Addressing:

  • "During this period, the Menominee enjoyed complete freedom to regulate hunting and fishing on the reservation, with the complete acquiescence of Wisconsin". Can this be copyedited to avoid the repetition of "complete"?
Done. GregJackP Boomer! 15:43, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...for two reasons. The tribe was opposed to termination for a number of reasons" - repetitive, and judging by the subsequent list, is it not two, but "a number of" (which most readers i think would think meant more than two).
Done., removed "for two reasons." GregJackP Boomer! 15:43, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I had trouble following the paragraph that begins "The Court of Claims had to determine whether the Menominee Termination Act had taken away that right." I think this is at least in part because of the different terms used to refer to the same legal questions, ie "whether the Menominee Termination Act had taken away that right", then "denied the claim" then "had not been abrogated". Then I was a little confused by this: "two witnesses who stated that the law would not affect hunting and fishing rights acquired by treaty, but would abrogate any such rights acquired by statute" What is meant by "the law" - do you mean "the Act"? Finally, have i correctly understood this court decision: the court denied compensation because, it argued, hunting and fishing rights had not been taken away? In other words, the decision amounted to a contradition (but not an over-ruling) of the Wisconsin Supreme Court decision? If so, maybe need to spell that out to more explcitly set the scene for the case going to a higher court.
Done., tried to clarify it. GregJackP Boomer! 18:48, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...as he had been the Solicitor General the previous year and had participated in the government's preparation of the case". I'm guessing that an American might know that there is only one Solicitor General, and that it is a federal office (yes?), but since the rest of the para is about what the Wisconsin government was asked to do, this particular sentence should specify which government's preparation of the case (I'm assuming federal). Otherwise, ignorant people like me who surmise that each state has a Solicitor General could then conclude it is a reference to the preparation of the Wisconsin state's brief.
Done. GregJackP Boomer! 19:20, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "reargument". Wikilink? It appears to have some particular procedural meaning.
Done.. Linked as "See also" to Oral argument in the United States. GregJackP Boomer! 19:25, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there a suitable wikilink available for "reserved tribal rights"?
I'm not aware of any link that would be appropriate. There are 91 instances of "tribal rights" on WP, none of which are an article about the concept. GregJackP Boomer! 19:33, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Act signaled the end of the termination era". Minor tweak and consistency question. An earlier sentence in this para refers to "the termination act" (all lower case). I suggest this later sentence should read "The Restoration Act", since both acts are mentioned in the para, but can you also look at the use of capitalisation of the word "act"?
Done. GregJackP Boomer! 19:33, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'll get to these as soon as I can. GregJackP Boomer! 15:38, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Further comment and source check:

  • I began by thinking that the article was a bit light on subsequent developments / significance / analysis, and thought i would try to add some in regards to Australia. I have in front of me Dorsett and Godden's A Guide to Overseas Precedents of Relevance to Native Title, which is cited in the article in support of the sentence "The case has been discussed internationally, for example in Australia regarding the relevance of indigenous or aboriginal title". However, the citation in the WP article is wrong (there is no reference to the matter on page 40 of the book) and furthermore the book makes no direct reference to this case. The only time the Menominee Tribe case is mentioned is where it apepars within quotes of other United States cases. That is, Dorsett and Godden make no reference to the case. I think this sentence should be deleted, but it does raise a small question mark for me about other sources, suggesting a source check is required. hamiltonstone (talk) 01:31, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure how that page error got in there, but I'm looking at the pages where the case is mentioned. On p. 64 (hunting and fishing rights as pre-existing rights), Dorsett & Godden directly reference the case in the section on hunting and fishing rights, and it is not within a quote on another case. On p. 177 (hunting and fishing rights need not be explicitly mentioned in treaty), and p. 178 (treaty abrogation should be explicit), it is contained within a quote of another case (United States v. Dion). I've corrected the reference. GregJackP Boomer! 03:19, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for finding that. Oddly the case is not listed in the book's index (others are), and I spent a while searching, but didn't read every page - sorry i missed p.64. OK. hamiltonstone (talk) 03:25, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No prob. GregJackP Boomer! 11:21, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support. All my concerns addressed. hamiltonstone (talk) 22:14, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:06, 3 November 2013 (UTC) [47].[reply]

Constance Stokes

Nominator(s): hamiltonstone (talk) 01:45, 18 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because Constance Stokes is a victim of double neglect: the favouring of Sydney artists over Melbourne ones in Twentieth century Australian art criticism, in addition to the pervasive neglect of female artists as against male. Ironically, her critical reception in her own lifetime was excellent, being selected for exhibition alongside others who, in contrast to Stokes, are today household names in Australian art, like Arthur Boyd. Her contemporary neglect is reflected in limited sources, but hopefully what is here is sufficiently comprehensive. hamiltonstone (talk) 01:45, 18 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Images

  • Captions that aren't complete sentences shouldn't end in periods
  • Fixed.
  • The illustrated pages were unnumbered.
Thanks for that Nikki. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:40, 23 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I found the article interesting, and it's certainly the sort of thing that I'd enjoy encountering as a featured article. Is the article well-written? On balance, probably yes. Does it show us at our best? Yes: it appears to be informed and comprehensive. However, I do think we need to be careful not to use featured article status, or "candidate for featured article" status, just to correct a perceived "neglect", either social or critical. This isn't our job. The eventual choice of featured articles should certainly reflect a good diversity of topics, ideally without excessive bias (whether gender, regional, or whatever), but here we're not selecting which articles actually will be featured; we're simply providing candidates from which a choice can be made. We're not in the business of editorialising here, but simply identifying articles that show Wikipedia at its best. RomanSpa (talk) 23:09, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry i'm not sure what your point is regarding the article? I couldn't link your remarks to an issue in the text. hamiltonstone (talk) 10:06, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by Cirt

Minor quibbles mostly, the article is of pretty high quality:

  1. Please respond below the entirety of these comments, and not interspersed throughout, thanks!
  2. Redlink: Benalla Art Gallery, not necessary to create, but would be nice and useful as at least a short sourced stub.
  3. Redlink: Mornington Peninsula Regional Gallery, not necessary to create, but would be nice and useful as at least a short sourced stub.
  4. Redlink: Swan Hill Regional Gallery, not necessary to create, but would be nice and useful as at least a short sourced stub.
  5. Lede: Could possibly break up the 2nd paragraph in two.
  6. Life and training: This might be an easier read as two paragraphs.
  7. Legacy: First paragraph of this could be broken up into two paragraphs.
  8. References: No need to have this in small font, please use normal size.
  9. Please respond below the entirety of these comments, and not interspersed throughout, thanks!

Thanks for your high quality contributions to Wikipedia, — Cirt (talk) 03:29, 5 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Responses:

  1. OK
  2. Done
  3. Done
  4. Done
  5. Done, and also added a sentence covering critics
  6. Done
  7. Done
  8. I haven't specified font size - it's just the product of the heading templates etc

Thanks for your review. hamiltonstone (talk) 05:07, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from WWB Too

Hello, I've also got an article at FAC presently, so in the interests of contributing to the process, I've put together my own review of the draft. I have a number of suggestions, so I'll use bullet points to make them easier to read:

  • Introduction
  1. This seems like a very prominent location to use a quotation, perhaps too early. Who said it? I would find it more appropriate to summarize the basic facts of her career and save specific praise or comments about her for later in the article.
The quote is attributed in the body text, but i have now revised the lead to eliminate it.
  1. The second paragraph contains some information which seems too detailed for a top-level overview of the article. I would advise keeping the introduction to the very general information, i.e. the years she was active, the style and medium of her work, the galleries where her work is displayed and perhaps her inclusion in Anne Summers' 2009 book. Critics' views seem less salient here.
We may have to agree to disagree and see if other reviewers have a view. I think critical reception is absolutely central to an artist biography, including determining to a significant degree their notability and subsequent understanding of their work. (I was also wryly amused, as the commonest complaint with my GAs and FAs is that the lede is too short :-)) hamiltonstone (talk) 01:10, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Life and training—The source that supports the following sentence does not confirm that George Bell influenced her career, though I see that the Fred Williams book (currently #12) does mention this. I would advise adding this reference to this sentence as well, so this information is properly supported:
The competition was judged by artist George Bell, who would have a continuing influence over her artistic career.[5]
Done. hamiltonstone (talk) 01:23, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Art—Several suggestions here:
  1. Perhaps this is a difference between Australian and American English, but I feel like the following sentence:
Stokes had returned from honeymoon in 1934,
should be
Stokes returned from her honeymoon in 1934,
Revised.
  1. The following is unsupported. Is there a source for this information?
    2. Years later, the work was acquired by the National Gallery of Victoria.
    Clarified and cited. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:47, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. The relevance to Stokes is unclear in first part of the second paragraph of the Art section. This information seems to focus on Bell as well as Australian art movements in general. The motives for Bell forming the group are important details for his article, but in relation to Stokes what is really important is that she became a member of the group. I would suggest condensing this down to something like the following:
    2. In 194X, Stokes became a member of the Melbourne Contemporary Artists exhibition group, which was founded by a mentor of Stokes', the artist George Bell, to... [Promote a certain art style? How best to summarize the purpose of the group succinctly?]
    I have been pondering this for a couple of weeks. My reluctance to change it arises from three things. First, i tend to prefer more context in my article than less; second, a more concise version could lose sight of why there was a modernist group with whom Stokes chose to associate; third, based on my reading of sources, it was very difficult to create a "succinct" statement of the purpose of the group and this text was the best I could come up with. The sources tended to deal with it in a complicated and evasive kind of way. Believe it or not, this was the short version. hamiltonstone (talk) 03:04, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. In the fourth paragraph the statement is made that Girl Drying Her Hair and Woman Drying Her Hair are probably the same work. Is this supported by the Summers 2009 source or is this an assumption? Also, the tone of final sentence of this paragraph reads like magazine profile, not an encyclopedia entry, and should be removed per WP:NOTNEWS.
    2. OK, I think i have finally sorted out the correct way to explain the dual names of the one painting. As to that last sentence, I remain happy with its narrative purpose, which is to engage the reader in the story of that painting. Unless other reviewers object, my preference is to leave it. I don't think anything at WP:NOTNEWS indicates this would be stylistically inconsistent with WP, and my emphasis would be on the FA criteria that "prose is engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard".hamiltonstone (talk) 02:29, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. The first three sentences of the fifth paragraph appear to be unsupported. Which source confirms this information? Also, the details about where the artists came from is probably unnecessary. I'd stick to just mentioning that Stokes' work was selected for inclusion in this exhibition.
    2. When i bring articles to FAC, i sometimes have reviewers complain about the density of my footnotes. This was probably an overreaction to that concern. All the facts are based on two sources cited in sentences four and five, but i have put a reference to the two at the end of sentence 3, and hopefully that should improve it. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:56, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. I would suggest subsections in the Art section if you can think of a way to logically break this section down. I think this would help with the readability of the information. The seven long paragraphs are a little overwhelming to the reader.
    2. Yes i agree it would be preferable, but i am yet to come up with any ideas other than a 'later career' heading, which would make the structure unbalanced as it refers only to the last of seven paras. I'll keep thinking though... hamiltonstone (talk) 02:29, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Have split it into two, around the 1953 travelling exhibition. hamiltonstone (talk) 03:11, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • National Library of Australia as publisher—I see that you've listed the National Library of Australia as the publisher in the {{cite news}} template for 9 of your sources, though isn't this really the archive location, not the publisher? Obviously I'm new to this article, so let me know if this was something that was discussed and decided upon at GA.
  • The NLA has an automatic citation format generator for wikipedia use, and these are the results of this. I think probably the reason is that the National Library is effectively (and legally) re-publishing the material, and as such is indeed a publisher. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:41, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bibliography—I'm a little confused as to why the following source is included in the Bibliography subsection of your References section:
Summers, Anne (17 November 2009). "An Artist Lost: Rediscovering Constance Stokes". Speech delivered at National Gallery of Australia. Archived from the original on 7 August 2010. Retrieved 28 September 2012.
The other sources listed in the Bibliography section are books, whereas this source is a speech. I understand you've used three separate pages from that source, but is it common practice to put reference items that are not books in the Bibliography section?
My experience is that it is standard practice to place in the bibliography any work for which a Harvard citation is used and for which different page numbers are cited, regardless of the work's form, including papers, book chapters and journal artices.hamiltonstone (talk) 00:41, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • NPOV language—In general I'm a little concerned about some of the phrases used in this article that don't appear to be clearly supported and are likely to be interpreted as statements of opinion. Can these comments be attributed to specific sources? If not, I feel that they should be removed. For example:
Stokes' artistry endured in a way that of some of her modernist colleagues did not.
This is an introductory statement to the remainder of the paragraph, which shows this.hamiltonstone (talk) 01:05, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
and
In contrast to many of her modernist colleagues, her works continued to be well-regarded by critics for many years after the group's formation.
This is a summary in the lede of what i hope is demonstrated in the cited sources in the body text. I'm not sure I'm seeing the problem with a lede summary like this? Did you feel that the body text did not contain cited information that critics continued to regard her work well in the years after the group's formation, but did not feel the same about other members? hamiltonstone (talk) 01:05, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
and
Despite these prominent painters being selected for inclusion, when the exhibition appeared in London, Stokes' painting Girl in Red Tights drew critical attention and acclaim.
This is supported by the citation at the end of the following sentence. As elsewhere, I was avoiding over-citation by not referring to the same item and page number twice in consecutive sentences. hamiltonstone (talk) 01:05, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is all I have time for now. I can probably take another look after you've had a chance to respond to these issues. I hope these comments are helpful, let me know if you have any questions. Cheers, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 14:10, 8 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the fabulous review. There are a couple of suggestions I probably don't agree with, but will consider for a while - it may take a couple of days to work through some things. Regards, hamiltonstone (talk) 21:23, 8 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I see you've implemented or explained most things. I could certainly change my mind on some of the disagreements as well, so happy to discuss further if you like. Ping me on my user Talk when you'd like me to look again. Cheers, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 22:03, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hamiltonstone, I see that you've made a few more changes based on my suggestions and I'm OK agreeing to disagree on the other issues. I will Support this article's promotion to FA status. Good work. WWB Too (Talk · COI) 16:28, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – a well-written and well-sourced article, it is a pleasure to read. I've just got a few comments:

  • "University of Melbourne" and "National Library of Victoria" are linked twice.
  • Since the lead does not mention that Stokes was married, perhaps you could tweak the very first sentence so that it reads "Constance Stokes (née Parkin, 1906–1991)".
  • It's peculiar that I have been able to detect all the other issues, yet missed the reference to her husband in the lead. Anyway, it is not clear to the reader that the name change was due to her marriage, so please add "nee". Having two bolded instances of "Contance" within four words of each other doesn't look good either. --Sp33dyphil ©hatontributions 10:58, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Canada, the United Kingdom and Venice in the early" – two countries and a city are listed; you should perhaps replace "Venice" with Italy.
  • "her to continuing continue her"
  • "Stokes returned from her honeymoon in 1934" -- do we know where the two spent their honeymoon?
  • "Despite the Collins Street apartment becoming a full-time studio for Stokes" → "Although the Collins Street apartment had become a full-time studio for Stokes" – removes noun + –ing construction.
  • When was the inaugural exhibition of the Contemporary Art Society? If it took place after 1946, perhaps you could move the sentence to the very end of the paragraph to combine the two mentions of the Gallery ie "In 1946, Stokes presented the work to the National Gallery of Victoria, where it would later be hung in the inaugural exhibition of the Contemporary Art Society."
  • Caps for "Cold War".
  • "being included in the" → "having been included"
  • The article uses "Melbourne" and "Melbourne, Vic." as locations.

--Sp33dyphil ©hatontributions 12:35, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much for those suggestions and catches. hamiltonstone (talk) 09:50, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Capitalise "A quiet revolution: the rise of Australian art 1946–1968".
  • You could insert "|format=exhibition catalogue" into FN 30.
  • I can still spot four instances of "Melbourne, Vic." in the article.

--Sp33dyphil ©hatontributions 10:58, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My comments have been fixed. I'm happy to support. --Sp33dyphil ©hatontributions 06:02, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support: I can find very little wrong with this. I cannot really comment on comprehensiveness (my only knowledge of Australian art comes from Hamiltonstone's other work!), but the prose is top-quality and there is little obviously missing. Just a few minor points, which do not affect my support for this excellent article. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:25, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • The description of her seems shoe-horned into the "life and training" section. Do we really need to include it? And if so, is this the best place for it? It just seems to have been stuck there.
  • Sigh, it is indeed shoehorned. The problem relates to your point below. In most biographies, some description of the person is common (see, for example, Fred Williams' biography of George Bell, one of the citations for this article). And I do not have a photograph of Stokes, so I felt I should tell the reader something about her appearance or temperament, but there is little available other than what I included. And so it does indeed read in an isolated way. hamiltonstone (talk) 12:20, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a strong secondary market for her works": Not too sure what this means.
  • Judging by Summers' comments, Bell is not a figure well-regarded by modern critics. Given the excellent depth and context given earlier in the article, could this be explained somewhere? It would give a bit of backing to her comment.
  • Argh. No free use images at all. Fair use - there are some copyrighted images online, but none of her major works. The one I prepared was the only one i thought would survive fair use scrutiny because this particular picture is much-discussed. Not sure what your experience is with non-free use, but mine is that it is a very high bar, so direct referencing of the content of the image has to be very clear. I haven't found another image i would be confident of putting forward.

Thank you for the useful points.hamiltonstone (talk) 12:20, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • Source for place of death?
  • McCulloch - edited body text so that is now specified.
  • I'm loath to mess with a referencing format determined by Australia's primary bibliographic institution and designed specifically for Wikipedia. I can't imagine doing anything that would be better than what the NLA's professionals came up with.

Thanks for the check. hamiltonstone (talk) 03:30, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments -- I decided to recuse myself from delegate/coord duties on this one...

  • I think you tell her story well but some of the wording jarred a bit for me, so I copyedited and you can let me know if I misunderstood anything; outstanding points:
    • Although she painted few works in the 1930s, her paintings and drawings were exhibited from the 1940s onwards -- the first clause seems a bit of a non-sequitur to one unacquainted with her work; do I care that she painted little in the '30s if I don't know when she started painting? Perhaps if you could add something to that effect immediately before, it would work better...
    • The family settled in Collins Street, Melbourne, and Stokes had three children between 1937 and 1942 -- I notice there's a hidden comment asking where she had her children and it does pique my curiosity as well; are we to assume they were born while she was living in Collins St?
      • Yes I saw the hidden comment too. I deliberately haven't clarified it, because the sources don't. Specifically, i do not have a date for the move between Collins Street and their later house in Kew. Though I suspect that it may post-date the children, it is possibly not the case. hamiltonstone (talk) 22:50, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Stokes' artistry endured in a way that of some of her modernist colleagues did not -- not quite grammatically correct, I fear; what we mean is that her modernist colleagues' artistry didn't endure, so technically I think you should have an apostrophe after "colleagues" (if it looks too odd then you may want to recast the sentence).
      • Indeed. Recasting. I think the non-possessive plural is now OK, because it refers to the "that" (as originally cast, it would have needed to read "that that" to be correct, which would have looked and sounded poor). Tell me if you still think it is wrong. hamiltonstone (talk) 22:50, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Content-wise the detail looks adequate, referencing seems good, and I'll rely on Nikki for the image and source checks.
  • Structurally I suppose my only niggle is that the heading Life and training makes it sound like you're giving us a full account of her private life in that section, whereas it's primarily her early life, while bits from her later life (e.g. death of her husband and herself) are interspersed in the Art section. I wonder if we shouldn't call the first section Early life and training and the second Artistic career to better reflect the content as it is? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:22, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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