Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions
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*#* The sentence begins with "On October 14, 2019, she was taken off life support..." This is based upon a publication date of 14 October 2019 (the date in the citation is wrong) and this quotation in the source: "They first had her on life support and this morning they took the tube out". Now let's imagine this. Imagine that someone you know is in the ICU and it's scary-bad. If you get a text message saying "They finally took her off life support this morning", is your response going to sound more like "Great news!" or "I'm so sorry. Is there anything I can do to help with the funeral?" If you don't believe me, then put the quoted phrase "taken off life support" into your nearest search engine, look at the results and come back here when you figured out that what QuackGuru actually wrote here was that further medical treatment was deemed futile and the girl was going to be allowed to die without so many tubes stuck in her. So, no, she was never actually "taken off life support" in the normal meaning of that phrase. She had recovered to the point that one single piece of equipment involved in her supportive therapy program could be removed. That's not being "taken off life support". This has {{tl|failed verification}}. |
*#* The sentence begins with "On October 14, 2019, she was taken off life support..." This is based upon a publication date of 14 October 2019 (the date in the citation is wrong) and this quotation in the source: "They first had her on life support and this morning they took the tube out". Now let's imagine this. Imagine that someone you know is in the ICU and it's scary-bad. If you get a text message saying "They finally took her off life support this morning", is your response going to sound more like "Great news!" or "I'm so sorry. Is there anything I can do to help with the funeral?" If you don't believe me, then put the quoted phrase "taken off life support" into your nearest search engine, look at the results and come back here when you figured out that what QuackGuru actually wrote here was that further medical treatment was deemed futile and the girl was going to be allowed to die without so many tubes stuck in her. So, no, she was never actually "taken off life support" in the normal meaning of that phrase. She had recovered to the point that one single piece of equipment involved in her supportive therapy program could be removed. That's not being "taken off life support". This has {{tl|failed verification}}. |
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*#* The other bit has a problem of false precision, in addition to being out of date. The source says "at least the next five weeks", which was translated into the overly precise "35 days" for no good reason. It is mathematically equal and clinically wrong. |
*#* The other bit has a problem of false precision, in addition to being out of date. The source says "at least the next five weeks", which was translated into the overly precise "35 days" for no good reason. It is mathematically equal and clinically wrong. |
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* Okay, but it's fixable, right? Everything could be re-written to accurately reflect the sources. We could re-write it to say "In October 2019, an Arizona teenager, Samantha, was found unresponsive by her friends in her bedroom", and so forth, through all eight tediously analyzed sentences, to correct everything. But: |
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*# This is a pile of unimportant [[WP:TRIVIA]]. It should not be in Wikipedia '''at all'''. Do we need to report which phone number was used to call for an ambulance? Would the story be materially different if she'd been found in the living room instead of her bedroom? Does it matter that the mother didn't know that her daughter was vaping, or are we just acting out our roles in the latest of the [[Urban legends about drugs]], in which we warn people about how dangerous the world is, and [[Do you know where your children are?]] Is there an encyclopedic point behind saying that one healthcare team, at one time, estimated a minimum of five more weeks in the hospital for one patient? None of this matters. If this kind of information mattered, we would have academic sources instead of television stations. This isn't even [[anecdata]]! This is a partial medical history of one kid, as told by her mother, without the consent of the person named (or mis-named) in the article, to a person in a profession notorious for being bad at science. We should have none of it! |
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*# Why's it still there? I haven't tried to remove it because I am already spending more of my time dealing with QuackGuru's problems than I want to. Previous experience has taught me what to expect: I'll remove bad content, and Quack will hit the Undo button as soon as possible. Maybe there will be a slight change – ''unresponsive'' will be swapped in for ''unconscious''; "blood and mucus" will get turned into "mucus and fluid"; "doctors" will be replaced by ""the Arizona Department of Health". But the big problem, which is that this should not be in Wikipedia AT ALL, will not be an acceptable outcome. I and other editors have already told Quack that we think this is wrong, and that it is unencyclopedic, and that it does [[WP:NOT]] belong on Wikipedia, but we get nowhere. The response we get is that it can be cited, so it's okay. I don't have time for another of these fights right now. |
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[[WP:DUE WEIGHT]] requires judgment. Quack, as we have proved over (and over and over) just doesn't have enough skill in the "editorial judgment" category to figure out that it's not okay to make a laundry list of every single person with EVALI that you could find via Google News. "All the news that's fit to cite" is not what an [[encyclopedia]] is for. It is occasionally okay to give an example of a historically important individual [[case study]]. A few cases, such as [[Patient HM]], are [[WP:Notable]]; others, such as the case described in the first-ever medical description of a condition or in a novel treatment, are worth mentioning briefly inside other articles. But it's not okay for an encyclopedia to drown in trivia just because it's in this week's news. |
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In terms of remedies, I have little hope. |
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* '''0RR/1RR''' will lead to a lot of disputes over what, technically, is a "revert". Also, it becomes unwieldy for a high-volume editor, unless the timeframe is so short that it doesn't serve the purpose of stopping the behavior. Nobody can remember every detail they added and someone else changed. There's also a "big garden" problem: if Quack adds content, and someone removes it, then that same content might appear on a different page. It's not a bad idea; it just isn't enough, and it doesn't address the core problems, which are adding bad content and apply POV-motivated double-standards to other people's contributions. |
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* The '''consensus required idea''' is that if Quack adds something and gets reverted, then there must be a talk page discussion, and Quack can't restore it until there is a positive consensus to restore it. However, I want to point out that one of my main problems is that Quack's years-long inability to work constructively with other editors means that the process of finding consensus spills out to many pages and spoils everyone else's day. |
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** At one point last summer, Quack had <mark>ten (10) separate RFCs open related to ecigs</mark>. Ten. I'm one of the (very) old hands at [[WT:RFC]], and I do not ever remember anyone else doing this. Flooding the community with RFCs is Very Bad Behavior Indeed and it must never happen again. Quack has two open at the moment, and I would actually be happy to have Quack '''banned entirely from starting RFCs on any subject'''. |
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** Quack's disputes regularly appear at [[WT:MED]]. This happens when, for example, someone disagrees with Quack and does not want to keep (re-re-re-re-)explaining why an encyclopedia should not have that kind of content, so one or the other of them will post a request for help with this endless explaining. We should stop being asked to explain. ** I'm ready to give up. Quack is never actually going to grasp the difference between an encyclopedia article and a magazine article. So I'm looking for damage control: Whatever we attempt, let's not have it be something that floods the RFC process or that means that my mornings begin with more complaints about Quack's inability to take 'no' for an answer at WT:MED. If you want to try "consensus required", then it should be spelled out with something along the lines of {{xt|"You may post one comment on the article's talk page, once, and wait for the other person to reply. If they reply, you may have a discussion. If they do not reply, or you do not come to a consensus, then you lose and may never restore that material or anything like that material to the article. You are specifically prohibited from starting any RFCs, mentioning the dispute on any other page, asking the other person to start an RFC related to that reversion, or asking other people to mention the discussion at any other page, explicitly including WT:MED, any Village pump, or anyone's user talk pages. If someone reverts you, that editor is not required to discuss the reversion, and you are definitely not entitled to a response that will [[WP:SATISFY]] you."}} And it would probably be a good idea to have some suitably worded warning posted on the talk pages of the ecig articles, so that people will know to report future problems here instead of at ANI. |
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* Very stringent '''volume limits''', like "maximum of one edit to the entire mainspace per day, and maximum of three edits anywhere on the English Wikipedia per day" would slow down the costs to the community, but it wouldn't do anything to help Quack figure out what an encyclopedia is for. There would be fewer edits, and they would be just as inappropriate. |
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* '''Topic bans''' are probably warranted, but as Beland notes, this just means transferring the problem to another, probably also controversial, subject area. This would be, what, the fifth time? It's probably time, and we should probably do it, but it does not actually solve the underlying problem. Or we could sum up religion, pseudoscience, alternative medicine, chiropractic, and ecigs and make the topic ban be for "science" (plus whatever's still in force on the previous religion TBAN). It might be a good idea for those restrictions to be more visible to everyday editors, too. Our enforcement mechanisms have to stop relying on the chance that one of the editors who sees a dispute will remember that Quack has a long list of editing restrictions (and a block log to match). This transfers the problem; it doesn't solve it. |
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* A '''site ban''' would be effective, but it would be unpopular (and the AE admins get yelled at enough for me to have a lot of sympathy on that front), because there are still lots of editors who seem to think that Quack's a good editor precisely because he drives away other editors, and besides, anyone who nitpicks other editors about the difference between ''youth'' and ''young people'' surely wouldn't make up the name of an underaged BLP when it's not directly stated in the source? Anyone who still believes that gets to read the tedious exposition of those eight sentences again. It's not true, and it's never been true. We need to stop pretending that. But if you jump there, without a really-truly-final-this-time-I-really-mean-it intermediary step, then you'll get yelled at unfairly. I don't think these editors are ready to face the fact that if Quack were capable of improving, then he wouldn't still be making such stupid mistakes, so the rational response is to read up on [[Escalation of commitment|that unfortunate tendency to fret about sunk costs]] and just give up and amputate now. |
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===Result concerning QuackGuru=== |
===Result concerning QuackGuru=== |
Revision as of 22:05, 13 February 2020
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions
Important information Please use this page only to:
For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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Adrummond67
Adrummond67 blocked for indefinite duration as arbitration enforcement--Ymblanter (talk) 10:50, 13 February 2020 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Adrummond67
Based on articles edited and the edits made, they also edited as Special:Contributions/2A00:23C4:AB9C:F100:C592:536:29F4:4D2F prior to creating an account. They are a single-purpose account dedicated to adding "monarch" fields to infoboxes. They were requested here to stop edit-warring and discuss their proposed changes on the relevant talk page of the articles concerned. They ignored this and made the edits noted above.
Discussion concerning Adrummond67Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Adrummond67Statement by (username)Result concerning Adrummond67
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QuackGuru
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning QuackGuru
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Beland (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:59, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- QuackGuru (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Editor conduct in e-cigs articles :
I started a section on Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#QuackGuru and was informed about the arbitration case and advised that was the wrong forum and this was the correct one. The discussion there is still ongoing, so apologies if this is inappropriate duplication.
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- Talk:2019–20_vaping_lung_illness_outbreak#Removal_of_update_section_tag - removing problem tags on excessively narrow grounds
- 2020-02-03 Removal of problem tags without consensus even though discussions are underway on talk page
- Talk:Nicotine_pouch#Alarming_amount_of_Ownership_and_unreliable_source_about_Kenya - editors are complaining about ownership; appears to be wikilawyering by applying the requirement for citations in a way that ignores the common-sense meanings of words and collections of words
- Talk:2019–20_vaping_lung_illness_outbreak#Predicting_the_future_in_a_scary_way - wikilawyering to argue WP:CRYSTAL allows any speculative claim because it only prohibits "unverifiable speculation", and willfully obtuse semantic arguments ignoring common-sense meanings of words, grammatical tense, and neighboring sentences
- Talk:Hospitalized_cases_in_the_vaping_lung_illness_outbreak#NPOV_issues - Started out constructive, but devolved into arguments that are overly narrowly focused on particular sentences and ignore the meaning of the word "some".
- Talk:Hospitalized_cases_in_the_vaping_lung_illness_outbreak#Vaping_among_teenagers - exhibits strong anti-vaping POV, which is a theme - having a personal POV is welcome, and I happen to agree with this one, but combining that with obstructionism seems to have resulted in this article being far from neutral (rather than balancing out pro-vaping commercial interests, as some QuackGuru supporters are hoping); also exhibits the "try every conceivable argument even if obviously wrong to wear down the opponent" strategy, which in this case defending a claim as neutral on the grounds that it is factual (which is true but it should be glaringly obvious that a fact that people were advocating for one point of view could be considered non-neutral; a constructive discussion would focus on whether this anti-vaping fact is or should be balanced by pro-vaping advocacy facts, or how context affects neutrality).
- Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Proposed_boomerang_topic_ban_for_Beland which responding admins have complained is disruptive and illustrative of the "try every argument even if obviously wrong" strategy
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Mentioned by name in the Arbitration Committee's Final Decision linked to above.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Interactions with QuackGuru appear to have contributed to the departure of User:Mfernflower from this topic. While looking into the reasons for their dissatisfaction with the resolution of previous disputes, I found a long discussion in case starting in September 2019 at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1021#QuackGuru and disruption over e-cigs and pod mods which I'll let speak for itself. The closure on that also suggests taking up the issue here.
QuackGuru is clearly smart and some interactions have been constructive—it often takes experienced editors from different perspectives to polish a text to be well-referenced and neutral. But sometimes they will veer from constructive to what appears to be deliberately obstructive. I would hate to lose the useful contributions of this editor, but I also hate to lose the contributions of other editors who don't have the patience to argue past the obstructionism or rope in third editors or start dispute resolution proceedings.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning QuackGuru
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by QuackGuru
Talk:2019–20 vaping lung illness outbreak#Removal of update section tag - I removed the tag because no new source was presented. The content Beland added "though individual cases do not provide strong evidence of causal relationships"[2] was unsupported by the source. I tagged the content and replaced it with verifiable content.
Belend merged the article on 21 December 2019.[3] After the merge was undone it was merged again after the AFD close.[4] The merge was overturned.[5] Beland merged the article again on 13 January 2020[6] and deleted the entire Patients section.[7] The talk page consensus limited it to three cases.[8]
I removed the tags from the Hospitalized cases in the vaping lung illness outbreak because I did not believe there was a serious enough issue to justify the multiple tags. FULBERT removed two of the tags.[9]
Talk:Nicotine pouch#Alarming amount of Ownership and unreliable source about Kenya - The word "lobbies" is a general term and it does not specify who made the claim. Beland wrote in part: "It would be unwise to attribute claims made by "lobbies" to KTCA..."[10]
The discussion at Talk:2019–20 vaping lung illness outbreak#Predicting the future in a scary way involved content cited to a 2019 review. The content is stating that the lung injuries could be more widespread and the lung injuries in various countries is not clear. It is not stating anything in a scary way. All the content from the review was deleted and the unverifiable content not vitamin E acetate was added by Beland.
I started a RfC to help resolve the matter for Talk:Hospitalized cases in the vaping lung illness outbreak#NPOV issues and Talk:Hospitalized cases in the vaping lung illness outbreak#Vaping among teenagers by proposing verifiable content for the lede.
The matter involving MelanieN for the e-cig lede was about updating the text. I objected to including a US-centric warning in the lede since the outbreak is not worldwide.
The matter involving KristofferR at the e-cig article was mainly about misleading content. The misleading content was fixed and I added a note to clarify the outbreak content.
The matter involving Sunline09 at the e-cig article was more about WP:SYNC. All previous versions were a SYNC violation. I copied content from the lede of the subarticle for the Frequency section.
The matter involving Seraphimblade was resolved here. On 29 December 2019 Seraphimblade reverted to an older version. It was undone by Doc James.[11]
Andy Dingley says "I've certainly avoided pod mod, QuackGuru, and their personal space of vaping articles ever since...".[12] According to talk page consensus a sentence fails verification. Andy Dingley made a comment about the pod mod article on 14:38, 6 December 2019. Soon after, Andy Dingley removed the FV tag on 14:54, 6 December 2019. The source mentions nicotine salts on pages 95-96 but it does not verify the claim.
The content and the quality of sources is under dispute at the nicotine pouch article. KristofferR added commercial websites and added nettotobak.com that sells LYFT products. I tagged the unreliable source and other unreliable sources. Beland removed the unreliable tag added to the nettotobak.com commercial website and other tags were removed. Beland also added commercial websites. I requested verification for "Unlike vaping products".[13] Beland asked me "Why would that require verification?"[14] The PDF file does not verify the claim "Unlike vaping products" added by Beland.
On controversial topics there are usually content disputes. Editors have different interpretations of policy. I am concerned that there may be no opportunity to examine in detail whether the content I tagged as failed verification did indeed fail verification. However, I accept that people disagree. I understand other editors' frustration and I am looking for a way to resolve the issue. Would it help if I don't add or remove tags for a year? QuackGuru (talk) 01:11, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
@Barkeep49: The reason I am concerned is because I and others have submitted evidence before and the response was a resounding yawn. I am also concerned that the commercial websites at Nicotine pouch will not be thoroughly examined. For example, the 3rd citation at Nicotine pouch is this commercial website. Websites that sell these products are kind of spammy and are poor sources.
I did not want to immediately fix the failed verification at Nicotine pouch because KristofferR was reverting my edits[15][16][17] (as well as Doc James[18][19]) at Electronic cigarette after the failed verification content was redacted. I did not want to get into an edit war at Nicotine pouch after what recently transpired at Electronic cigarette. KristofferR copied the discussion from my talk page over to the nicotine pouch talk page. KristofferR thought the word "lobbies" is likely inaccurate and a language error. I thought verifiability policy is applicable rather than trying to seek truth. QuackGuru (talk) 01:35, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
Additional comments by QuackGuru: Unsourced content and failed verification content are continuing to be introduced to this topic area and I don't see others trying to redact the problematic content. In the edit summary Beland wrote "this variation is in fact mentioned in the body in the Construction section".[20] The Electronic cigarette article is not the Construction article. A rewrite of the content is also not a summary of Electronic cigarette and it is unsourced. A similar change to Safety of electronic cigarettes fails verification and it is not a summary of content in the body the Safety article. See discussion.
@Barkeep49: The word "also" fails verification because the organisation did not "also" make the claim. They made one of the claims in the paragraph. One of the sentences was attributed to Kenya Tobacco Control Alliance when the source made a broader claim it was "lobbies". Once that would be fixed it would no longer be "also". The word "also" has since been removed from that paragraph. You believe I am right a real % of the time to challenge the text. A personal consensus requirement would not allow me to revert failed verification content. If you read the talk pages involving failed verification content or other issues the editor who added the problematic content almost always disagrees there is any problem with the content. There is still failed verification content in the nicotine pouch article such as the part "Unlike Vaping product". After verification was requested, I was asked Why would that require verification? rather than provide verification or removed the disputed content. A "personal consensus required" will not allow me to update a few numbers in an article because I reverted a citation added by another editor and changed numbers. The "personal consensus required" commentary was made before I had a chance to respond. Now that I have responded uninvolved sysops may want to review my response and additional commentary before coming to a final conclusion. QuackGuru (talk) 14:26, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Levivich
I clicked, at random, on the third link, to Talk:Nicotine_pouch#Alarming_amount_of_Ownership_and_unreliable_source_about_Kenya
- Article text at issue: "The Kenya Tobacco Control Alliance objected to the entrance of nicotine pouches in Kenya.[citation needed] They are concerned that the nicotine pouches may raise the risk of cancer, heart disease, and reproductive or developmental harms.[failed verification] They also[failed verification] stated that there is no reliable research that demonstrates nicotine pouches are safer than regular cigarettes.[1]"
- What the cited source says: "Lobbies have raised an alarm, saying the pouches could result in increased risk for cancer, heart disease and reproductive or developmental effects. Kenya Tobacco Control Alliance (Ketca) protested the introduction of nicotine pouches, saying there is no adequate data to show the smokeless pouches were a less risky alternative to cigarettes. Ketca Chairman Joel Gitali said tobacco pouches, illegal in parts of Europe, could have lower levels of some potentially harmful chemicals compared to cigarettes. He said the pouches contained higher amounts of arsenic, cadmium and nicotine. 'The US Food and Drug Administration said there is not enough data to prove they are safer than cigarettes and, therefore, we call upon the government not to license these products that are a threat to public health,' he said."
- In the talk page discussion, QG argues that the text fails verification because
It is "Organizations in Kenya" not "They"
andThe word "Lobbies" does not mean "Kenya Tobacco Control Alliance".
Maybe it's a language issue or just not reading carefully enough, but I can see how this sort of argumentatoin would prompt editors to raise WP:TE or WP:CIR concerns. – Levivich 00:12, 7 February 2020 (UTC)- @Johnuniq: I ec'd with your comment rewriting my statement; it now includes the relevant text from the source. The source says that Ketca is one of 'the lobbies" that has concerns about pouches raising the risk of cancer, etc. Levivich 06:38, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Johnuniq: The Kenyan Tobacco Control Alliance is, as the name suggests, an alliance of tobacco control groups. They are the "lobbies" that are being referred to in this passage: "Lobbies have raised an alarm, saying the pouches could result in increased risk for cancer, heart disease and reproductive or developmental effects. Kenya Tobacco Control Alliance (Ketca) protested the introduction of nicotine pouches, saying there is no adequate data to show the smokeless pouches were a less risky alternative to cigarettes." Also, Ketca is the only group that is mentioned in the entire article. The entire article only puts forward two points of view: that of the tobacco companies, given by the managing director of a tobacco company, and that of the anti-tobacco lobby, given by the chairman of Ketco. The article does not mean lobbies other than Ketco are concerned about the pouches. Ketca is speaking on behalf of "the lobbies" – they are "the lobbies". Maybe this is an engvar thing? Levivich 07:20, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Doc James
And than we have the tagging issue on the other side. User:Beland requests that an "update" tag not be removed as the that section ONLY has sources from September 2019.[21] Was tagged in this edit.[22] Seriously if you have newer sources than add them. September is only a couple of months ago. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:20, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- It seems like this one issue is resolved.[23] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:50, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by MelanieN
I’ll chime in here to share my own experience with QuackGuru. I was also driven away from an article by his relentless ownership. Last September I went to the Electronic cigarette article, intending to see that the coverage of the vaping-related lung illness was being reported accurately. I made six edits over a three-day period, most of which were immediately reverted by QuackGuru. His resistance to anything not contributed by him was total. One battle that I lost was his insistence on retaining a lot of outmoded information in the lede; see the second paragraph in the lede, which to this to this day consists mostly of outmoded studies from years ago indicating that vaping is pretty harmless, with a single sentence at the end of the paragraph mentioning the vaping-related illness outbreak in the U.S. last summer. Another example: he totally rejected my attempts to insert the warnings issued by the CDC and AMA, insisting that warnings couldn’t be in the lede, or had to go in a different article entirely, or were non-neutral, or were silly, or were WP:NEWS, or whatever other argument he could think of. In this talk page exchange you can see my fruitless attempts to bring the article up to date and put the relevant information in the lead. I summoned Doc James to the article’s talk page, but his recommendations were also rejected. I don’t really know what can be done about this situation, because the entire article, and its multiple spinoffs, are totally QC's creation, and the articles are written in his almost unreadable style, which consists of dozens or hundreds of single sentences, each summarizing a report and sourced to that report, with no context or summarizing allowed. Trying to rewrite the article to make it more readable would be an enormous job even if it wasn’t fought by him at every turn. Trying to do any editing at all is pretty much impossible. -- MelanieN (talk) 06:45, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- In reply to El C's question about whether QG has continued to behave as I describe here: The issues I described were in early September. The ANI thread was closed October 24. So I checked to see if he is still doing what I described - “owning” the article and refusing to accept any editing or input from anyone else. Answer: yes, he is. Most recent activity:
- Jan 30: User:KristofferR pointed out on the talk page a new report from the CDDC, saying it should be added to the article. QG disagreed. [24]
- Over the next few days: KristofferR repeatedly added information to the article from the new CDC report and QG repeatedly removed it (in fairness, two other editors including Doc James also removed it).[25]
- Feb 2: KristofferR posted at the talk page with additional references, and he and QG argued.[26]
- Feb. 5: Another user, User:Sunline09, added sourced content to the article page.[27] QG immediately tagged all three additions “failed verification” and asked Sunline to “post all the new sources here on the talk page.”[28]
- My conclusion: yes, he is still behaving as I described. He is still “owning” the articles and challenging everything anyone else tries to do. I should also note that electronic cigarettes and spinoff articles (Category:Electronic cigarettes lists 56 articles on the subject, virtually all created by QG) are pretty much the only things he is editing about. In his past 500 edits I found only three or four on any other subject. This is not just ownership; this borders on obsession. -- MelanieN (talk) 20:14, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Seraphimblade
I had considered the course of action of an AE filing myself, based upon what I've seen of QuackGuru at Hospitalized cases in the vaping lung illness outbreak. I will first say that I believe QG has the best of intentions in keeping the encyclopedia free of pseudoscience and woo, and I have often myself seen QG do good work in those areas. However, in this area, QG has been a problem there as well. QuackGuru has the habit of, rather than participating in discussion, continuing to repeat himself with claims like "failed verification", even after being shown the specific portion of the reference which confirms the article text, as here. QuackGuru's conduct can have the effect of driving other good-faith contributors away entirely as well [29]. While I see that Thryduulf has proposed sanctions related to tags and reverts, those are not in my view the primary issues. Rather, the core issue is ownership of articles and I didn't hear that during discussions, as well as reverts with a simple statement of "failed verification" without any explanation of what QG believes failed verification and why, which make interaction with QuackGuru, especially in this area, a phenomenally frustrating experience. 1RR and a prohibition on tag removal will not solve those problems. Seraphimblade Talk to me 19:23, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Andy Dingley
My experiences echo those of MelanieN. I've had little to do with QuackGuru, and that was too much.
Late last year there was a backlog drive at AfC, which I took part in. QuackGuru objected strongly to the pod mod article, blanked it as a "hoax" (a farcical claim) and then was persistently disruptive afterwards, with clear behaviours beyond OWN and IDHT. Several times they deleted a claim or section made by others, only to add it back again themselves later on. Their attitude to sourcing is peculiar, seemingly regarding anything that isn't a literal text copy as then not supporting the claimed content. Yet nowhere else on WP do we seem to have a problem in avoiding close paraphrasing like that. They also relied on that old favourite MEDRS for issues, such as the aesthetic design of commercial products which are outside the MEDRS scope.
A long ANI thread was the result: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1021#QuackGuru and disruption over e-cigs and pod mods
I've certainly avoided pod mod, QuackGuru, and their personal space of vaping articles ever since, even to the point of avoiding AfC (which still has a backlog) altogether. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:26, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by KristofferR
I deliberately took a break from Wikipedia for a few days because I found dealing with QuackGuru so exhausting. I was relieved to go back and find this discussion, and the issues I consider QuackGuru to have introduced to the articles I participated in, to be fixed.
I won't beat around the bush too much, as my experiences completely echo those of others here. Suffice to say to say I found him to inherit an alarming amount of ownership to the articles in question, and fight participation by abusing sourcing requirements by adding "failed verification", "unreliable source", or similar tags, to every sentence added, despite the sources being undeniably reliable (government sources for example) or not needed at all due to WP:BLUE, and subsequently add complaints about overcitation when too many sources are added as a last ditch resort to satisfy him.
The nicotine pouch article was especially egregious, he threatened a revert of all my edits to the article, to an objectively inferior version (where health statements from an anti-tobacco lobby was listed under "Research" for example), due to his abuse of sourcing tags. Thankfully this discussion happened, Beland stepped in, and fixed the real issues with the article while also leaving in the relevant content I contributed. Thanks again Beland! KristofferR (talk) 05:19, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
Answer to question from Johnuniq by Beland
@Johnuniq: It's a bit unfair to judge remarks taken out of context, but if it helps here are some examples.
Based on two news articles that each relate stories from several patients hospitalized with vaping injuries, in this edit I combined "Teenagers who were admitted to the hospital due to vaping-induced lung illnesses are sharing their stories and telling others to quit vaping." and "People who came close to death from a vaping-induced illness are also telling their stories." into "Some patients are sharing stories of hospitalizations and life-threatening symptoms." dropping "and telling others to quit vaping" because the source didn't explicitly say they were doing so, just that they had inspired people to do so (and this did not sound neutral). Quoting from Talk:Hospitalized_cases_in_the_vaping_lung_illness_outbreak#NPOV_issues:
- Combining different claims to come to a conclusion that it was "some" is a SYN violation. Both sources don't support the same claim. QuackGuru (talk) 23:42, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
- BuzzFeed News verifies teenagers and telling others to quit vaping. The other does not verify that claim. No source verifies "some" patients. QuackGuru (talk) 00:00, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- None of the sources presented verifies the word "some". It is about verifiability not truth. I am arguing we don't conduct our own review of the presented sources and come to a conclusion not found in any source. BuzzFeed News also verifies that they are telling others to quit vaping. QuackGuru (talk) 00:47, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
Refusing to apply the meanings of words and pretending that proposed changes resultingly cause a sourcing violation is probably the most vexing pattern of obstruction; slavish copying can also (as in this case) act as a backdoor to import the POV of a source. Slavish sourcing also results in very choppy articles with no summarizing allowed. Though strong sourcing is awesome, QuackGuru seems to have an interpretation of sourcing requirements that does not align with the consensus policy:
- ...why not just have an unreferenced summary of the contents of the article here (in particular the list of cases), as is usually done on Wikipedia articles? It's allowed by MOS:LEADCITE for uncontroversial content, which a summary of well-referenced details presented later in the article usually is. -- Beland (talk) 01:42, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- I moved it to the body. Unsourced content in the lede not supported by any source is strictly forbidden. QuackGuru (talk) 01:47, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- I would not characterize unsourced content as "strictly forbidden", though for many claims it is indeed needed. MOS:CITELEDE says in part: "information in the lead section of non-controversial subjects is less likely to be challenged and less likely to require a source; there is not, however, an exception to citation requirements specific to leads. The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus.". -- Beland (talk) 02:10, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
Comments by Beland on remedy
For the benefit of administrators trying to decide on a remedy, I can provide a little perspective from having to clean up some articles which have been heavily edited by QuackGuru. I'm afraid a topic ban would simply refocus the problematic behavior on a different topic, as apparently has happened before. A general 0RR would help solve problems like removing content from other editors for bogus reasons (whether immediately or shortly after tagging), mass reverts that throw away useful contributions, excessive arguing over minor wording tweaks like consolidating sentences, and preventing other editors from chipping away at well-referenced but excessive or off-topic details. There is a major problem with "crying wolf" and sometimes nonsensical and self-contradictory arguments trying to look legitimate just to prevent other editors from restoring their own edits (whether rightly or wrongly). Currently overcoming that requires finding a third editor; with a 0RR it would just require reverting. QuackGuru would still have the opportunity to argue for restoration, but if they continue to cry wolf editors will just ignore those arguments rather than being forced to dispute them. I think in the long term this will help QuackGuru prioritize arguments that other editors find convincing.
Another possible remedy is simply a ban from editing article pages but not talk pages. Some of the articles I'm cleaning up have a lot of excessive detail and choppy writing that editors are complaining is unreadable, and that wouldn't happen in the first place if it has to be filtered through other editors. To avoid being ignored, QuackGuru would have to learn what type of material is considered quality writing, and would still be able to contribute references and point out problems. This article space ban might mean more work for other editors, at least at first, to find and copy helpful improvements, but it would eliminate the need to come back and un-revert one's own edits every time one edits an article on a topic of interest to QuackGuru.
I hope some remedy can be applied. After cleaning up Nicotine pouch I realized despite extensive involvement QuackGuru hadn't removed obvious legitimately spammy content, but had used spamminess as an argument to remove good citations to commercial web sites (documenting claims about what products were for sale in Norway). What QuackGuru has done to ward off commercial entities attempting to spam Wikipedia seems to have been done inconsistently, and doing that actually seems easier for other editors to do compared to cleaning up the piles of bad writing by fighting talk page disputes one sentence at a time. -- Beland (talk) 06:38, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
- (To clarify, by 0RR, I mean not that reverts would not be allowed for a 24 hour period, but reverts would not be allowed indefinitely; other editors would have to make them.) -- Beland (talk) 17:09, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
Question from S Marshall
Is this editor ever to be given a decisive and effective sanction? You lot keep coming up with novel remedies to avoid doing something that'll actually work. He's been on his very last chance ever since 2015. It's pathetic. Your endless patience with QG's behaviour equates to a callous disregard for his victims.—S Marshall T/C 10:00, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by WhatamIdoing
I've been thinking about this. I don't think there are good solutions. Solutions imply that an editor has a genuine capacity to become a constructive member of the community. Desirable skills in this community include:
- Being a good writer
- Knowing how to accurately represent sources
- An awareness of your biases, coupled with a stronger commitment to neutrality than to your POV
- Technical skills
- Understanding people
You really only need one of these skills. A good copyeditor is always welcome, even if the person does little more than eliminate comma splices or fix idioms. We need people who know that youth are young people , but who won't call the Odds an Odds ratio. We admire editors who can say that they hate tobacco (and I do) and still not blame smoking for climate change (but let me know if you find a good source, 'kay?). We don't expect bot ops to create FAs, and we encourage the anti-spam folks to keep the spammers at bay even if that means never adding content to articles. And while we overlook a lot on the "being nice" front, in the end, if you can't understand the other people in the community, you will end up wasting everyone else's time in needless disputes, and you will screw up articles because you won't correctly understand and interpret the community's policies and guidelines.
QuackGuru has none of these skills. I'm thinking it's hopeless, and that what we need in the end is to say thanks for trying, but you aren't cut out to be a good editor, and you never will be.
I just replied to one of the RFCs at Hospitalized cases in the vaping lung illness outbreak. It's basically two lists in paragraph form. Here's one bit of the content added by QuackGuru:
In October 2019, 16-year-old Samantha Ford from Phoenix, Arizona was found unconscious by her mother in her bedroom.[1] Her mother was unable to give her CPR because of all the blood and mucus seeping out of her mouth.[1] Her mother dialed 911 for an ambulance[2] and by the time the teenager arrived at the Phoenix Children's Hospital she went into cardiac arrest.[3] Doctors said her condition was induced by vaping.[1] Her mother did not know her daughter had been vaping for two years.[1] Her heart was working at only 30% and she was bleeding from the lungs.[3] She was placed on life support and was taken to the ICU.[2] On October 14, 2019, she was taken off life support and doctors stated she will stay in the hospital for at least the next 35 days.[3]
- ^ a b Hein, Alexandria (15 October 2019). "Arizona teen in ICU with vape illness, mom feels like 'total failure'". Fox News.
- ^ a b c Martinez, Jennifer (15 October 2019). "Valley teen hospitalized after being found unresponsive due to vaping-related illness". KSAZ-TV.
Fine, right? Every single sentence is grammatically correct, and every sentence is followed by an inline citation. That's what Wikipedia wants, right?
No. That's not really what we want. None of this should have ever been in Wikipedia at all.
I really want to dispell the idea that QuackGuru is doing a good job, so we're going to go through this one paragraph (which was not selected for being unusual) in detail:
- All of these sources are local WP:PRIMARYNEWS. They are the opposite of WP:MEDRS. Most of them are next door to breaking news. We should not be using them at all.
- The sources don't match the content.
- Let's start with the first sentence: "In October 2019, 16-year-old Samantha Ford from Phoenix, Arizona was found unconscious by her mother in her bedroom."
- "In October 2019": The date is correct.
- "16-year-old": Her age is probably correct, assuming that she didn't have a birthday in between when she was found and when the news story was written, because technically the source reports her age at the time of publication, not her age at the time of being found in her bedroom. So this has {{failed verification}}, even if I think that the 2% chance of an intervening birthday isn't worth bothering about.
- "Samantha Ford": QuackGuru just assumed that the mother and daughter have the same last name. None of the cited sources actually gives the girl's own last name. {{Failed verification}} again.
- "from Phoenix, Arizona": Look for proof that the girl is actually from Phoenix, and not from one of the suburbs or surrounding unincorporated areas. You won't find it. The dateline on the Martinez source is from Phoenix, but that's not the same thing as the girl's own home address. The Navarette source's headline identifies her as a "Valley teen", which is not the same thing as saying she's from Phoenix.
- "was found unconscious": The cited source says unresponsive, not unconscious. None of the sources use the word unconscious. {{Failed verification}} again.
- "by her mother": The cited source does not say who found her. The Martinez source says that she was found by her friends. So this is both factually incorrect and it has {{failed verification}}.
- "in her bedroom." Well, at least we got something else right.
- Are you keeping count? The only parts of the first sentence that are actually verified in the cited source are "In October 2019, in her bedroom". Everything else is from a different source or not present in any source. If you feel like adding "by Colonel Mustard with the vaping products", you've got the right idea.
- Time for sentence #2! Click that first ref, to the article by Navarette. See if you can find any of these words: CPR, blood, mucus, mouth. I couldn't! That's because that information comes from a quotation from the girl's mother, which isn't in that source. It appears only in the other two sources. Oh, and the mother didn't say anything about blood. She said "I tried to do CPR but I couldn't because there was so much mucus and fluid coming from her mouth". So it's cited to the wrong source, and even if you decide that's an unimportant error, the contents are wrong, too.
- Now we get to the really tricky stuff.
- The sources contradict each other about who called 911. One says the mother told her friends to call 911, and another says the mother did it herself. But none of the sources include the world ambulance, so that part has {{failed verification}}.
- Now open the article by Martinez and find what it says about cardiac arrest. Do you see anything that connects cardiac arrest with any temporal circumstance, i.e., that it happened "by the time the teenager arrived" at PCH? I don't either! {{Failed verification}} again. Also, I am concerned that might be factually wrong, given that PCH was the third hospital the girl was taken to. It's quite possible that the cardiac arrest happened at one of the earlier locations.
- Sentence #4 says "Doctors said her condition was induced by vaping". Sounds plausible, right? It's not in the source. Her own healthcare providers don't say a thing in that source. I think that "doctors" is supposed to mean "the Arizona Department of Health", which presumably talked to this girl's doctors and does employ some. It might also mean "Cara Christ, MD, MS, Director of the Arizona Department of Health", but she's only one person, so she can't be "doctors" in the plural. (User:Johnuniq, I'm suddenly thinking of that "lobbies vs one specific lobby" question.)
- Sentence #5 is the first sentence in this paragraph that is actually verified by the cited source.
- The real problem with this sentence is that it confuses the timeline. The bleeding-lungs problem (which is not necessarily "bleeding from the lungs"; you can also have "bleeding within the lungs") was probably at the time the girl collapsed. The 30% heart function was at the time the mother was interviewed for the news story. The way it's written, it sounds like these happened at the same time, i.e., that she's still bleeding from the lungs, and maybe both of these happened the day she collapsed.
- This sentence implies a chronological order: first "life support" and second "go to ICU". These two items are mentioned in the opposite order in the source. But perhaps they happened simultaneously?
- Two subjects:
- The sentence begins with "On October 14, 2019, she was taken off life support..." This is based upon a publication date of 14 October 2019 (the date in the citation is wrong) and this quotation in the source: "They first had her on life support and this morning they took the tube out". Now let's imagine this. Imagine that someone you know is in the ICU and it's scary-bad. If you get a text message saying "They finally took her off life support this morning", is your response going to sound more like "Great news!" or "I'm so sorry. Is there anything I can do to help with the funeral?" If you don't believe me, then put the quoted phrase "taken off life support" into your nearest search engine, look at the results and come back here when you figured out that what QuackGuru actually wrote here was that further medical treatment was deemed futile and the girl was going to be allowed to die without so many tubes stuck in her. So, no, she was never actually "taken off life support" in the normal meaning of that phrase. She had recovered to the point that one single piece of equipment involved in her supportive therapy program could be removed. That's not being "taken off life support". This has {{failed verification}}.
- The other bit has a problem of false precision, in addition to being out of date. The source says "at least the next five weeks", which was translated into the overly precise "35 days" for no good reason. It is mathematically equal and clinically wrong.
- Let's start with the first sentence: "In October 2019, 16-year-old Samantha Ford from Phoenix, Arizona was found unconscious by her mother in her bedroom."
- Okay, but it's fixable, right? Everything could be re-written to accurately reflect the sources. We could re-write it to say "In October 2019, an Arizona teenager, Samantha, was found unresponsive by her friends in her bedroom", and so forth, through all eight tediously analyzed sentences, to correct everything. But:
- This is a pile of unimportant WP:TRIVIA. It should not be in Wikipedia at all. Do we need to report which phone number was used to call for an ambulance? Would the story be materially different if she'd been found in the living room instead of her bedroom? Does it matter that the mother didn't know that her daughter was vaping, or are we just acting out our roles in the latest of the Urban legends about drugs, in which we warn people about how dangerous the world is, and Do you know where your children are? Is there an encyclopedic point behind saying that one healthcare team, at one time, estimated a minimum of five more weeks in the hospital for one patient? None of this matters. If this kind of information mattered, we would have academic sources instead of television stations. This isn't even anecdata! This is a partial medical history of one kid, as told by her mother, without the consent of the person named (or mis-named) in the article, to a person in a profession notorious for being bad at science. We should have none of it!
- Why's it still there? I haven't tried to remove it because I am already spending more of my time dealing with QuackGuru's problems than I want to. Previous experience has taught me what to expect: I'll remove bad content, and Quack will hit the Undo button as soon as possible. Maybe there will be a slight change – unresponsive will be swapped in for unconscious; "blood and mucus" will get turned into "mucus and fluid"; "doctors" will be replaced by ""the Arizona Department of Health". But the big problem, which is that this should not be in Wikipedia AT ALL, will not be an acceptable outcome. I and other editors have already told Quack that we think this is wrong, and that it is unencyclopedic, and that it does WP:NOT belong on Wikipedia, but we get nowhere. The response we get is that it can be cited, so it's okay. I don't have time for another of these fights right now.
WP:DUE WEIGHT requires judgment. Quack, as we have proved over (and over and over) just doesn't have enough skill in the "editorial judgment" category to figure out that it's not okay to make a laundry list of every single person with EVALI that you could find via Google News. "All the news that's fit to cite" is not what an encyclopedia is for. It is occasionally okay to give an example of a historically important individual case study. A few cases, such as Patient HM, are WP:Notable; others, such as the case described in the first-ever medical description of a condition or in a novel treatment, are worth mentioning briefly inside other articles. But it's not okay for an encyclopedia to drown in trivia just because it's in this week's news.
In terms of remedies, I have little hope.
- 0RR/1RR will lead to a lot of disputes over what, technically, is a "revert". Also, it becomes unwieldy for a high-volume editor, unless the timeframe is so short that it doesn't serve the purpose of stopping the behavior. Nobody can remember every detail they added and someone else changed. There's also a "big garden" problem: if Quack adds content, and someone removes it, then that same content might appear on a different page. It's not a bad idea; it just isn't enough, and it doesn't address the core problems, which are adding bad content and apply POV-motivated double-standards to other people's contributions.
- The consensus required idea is that if Quack adds something and gets reverted, then there must be a talk page discussion, and Quack can't restore it until there is a positive consensus to restore it. However, I want to point out that one of my main problems is that Quack's years-long inability to work constructively with other editors means that the process of finding consensus spills out to many pages and spoils everyone else's day.
- At one point last summer, Quack had ten (10) separate RFCs open related to ecigs. Ten. I'm one of the (very) old hands at WT:RFC, and I do not ever remember anyone else doing this. Flooding the community with RFCs is Very Bad Behavior Indeed and it must never happen again. Quack has two open at the moment, and I would actually be happy to have Quack banned entirely from starting RFCs on any subject.
- Quack's disputes regularly appear at WT:MED. This happens when, for example, someone disagrees with Quack and does not want to keep (re-re-re-re-)explaining why an encyclopedia should not have that kind of content, so one or the other of them will post a request for help with this endless explaining. We should stop being asked to explain. ** I'm ready to give up. Quack is never actually going to grasp the difference between an encyclopedia article and a magazine article. So I'm looking for damage control: Whatever we attempt, let's not have it be something that floods the RFC process or that means that my mornings begin with more complaints about Quack's inability to take 'no' for an answer at WT:MED. If you want to try "consensus required", then it should be spelled out with something along the lines of "You may post one comment on the article's talk page, once, and wait for the other person to reply. If they reply, you may have a discussion. If they do not reply, or you do not come to a consensus, then you lose and may never restore that material or anything like that material to the article. You are specifically prohibited from starting any RFCs, mentioning the dispute on any other page, asking the other person to start an RFC related to that reversion, or asking other people to mention the discussion at any other page, explicitly including WT:MED, any Village pump, or anyone's user talk pages. If someone reverts you, that editor is not required to discuss the reversion, and you are definitely not entitled to a response that will WP:SATISFY you." And it would probably be a good idea to have some suitably worded warning posted on the talk pages of the ecig articles, so that people will know to report future problems here instead of at ANI.
- Very stringent volume limits, like "maximum of one edit to the entire mainspace per day, and maximum of three edits anywhere on the English Wikipedia per day" would slow down the costs to the community, but it wouldn't do anything to help Quack figure out what an encyclopedia is for. There would be fewer edits, and they would be just as inappropriate.
- Topic bans are probably warranted, but as Beland notes, this just means transferring the problem to another, probably also controversial, subject area. This would be, what, the fifth time? It's probably time, and we should probably do it, but it does not actually solve the underlying problem. Or we could sum up religion, pseudoscience, alternative medicine, chiropractic, and ecigs and make the topic ban be for "science" (plus whatever's still in force on the previous religion TBAN). It might be a good idea for those restrictions to be more visible to everyday editors, too. Our enforcement mechanisms have to stop relying on the chance that one of the editors who sees a dispute will remember that Quack has a long list of editing restrictions (and a block log to match). This transfers the problem; it doesn't solve it.
- A site ban would be effective, but it would be unpopular (and the AE admins get yelled at enough for me to have a lot of sympathy on that front), because there are still lots of editors who seem to think that Quack's a good editor precisely because he drives away other editors, and besides, anyone who nitpicks other editors about the difference between youth and young people surely wouldn't make up the name of an underaged BLP when it's not directly stated in the source? Anyone who still believes that gets to read the tedious exposition of those eight sentences again. It's not true, and it's never been true. We need to stop pretending that. But if you jump there, without a really-truly-final-this-time-I-really-mean-it intermediary step, then you'll get yelled at unfairly. I don't think these editors are ready to face the fact that if Quack were capable of improving, then he wouldn't still be making such stupid mistakes, so the rational response is to read up on that unfortunate tendency to fret about sunk costs and just give up and amputate now.
WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:05, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
Result concerning QuackGuru
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- @Beland: Sorry to overwhelm with you with bureaucracy (similar to my response at ANI) but those links show a lot of comments which are difficult to disentangle. Please pick one point which best illustrates the issue and outline what edits or comments are a problem and why. Personally, I can't get excited about a battle over tags—are there edits or comments that show QG to be repeatedly incorrect about an article assertion or that show QG pushing a "strong anti-vaping POV"? Johnuniq (talk) 23:25, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Levivich: I know that QG's style and rigidity frustrates other editors but QG is often right about sources. Please correct me if I'm missing something but the key point in your example concerns QG's failed verification on "They are concerned that the nicotine pouches may raise the risk of cancer...". In context, "They" refers to a specific organization and the article does not say that organization is concerned about an increased risk of cancer etc. The article reports that the organization said "there is no adequate data to show the smokeless pouches were a less risky alternative". That is a long way from the assertion and unless there is other text that I can't see, the source fails verification. The article says that (unspecified) Lobbies are concerned that pouches may raise the risk of cancer etc. Johnuniq (talk) 06:32, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Levivich: I'm afraid the changed comments confuse me. Please spell out what text in the source verifies that a specific organization (Ketca) is concerned that nicotine pouches may raise the risk of cancer. The source has two mentions of Ketca and two of cancer. The subheading (probably not written by the author of the article) is "Lobby has raised an alarm, saying the introduction of pouches could result in increased risk for cancer" but the article does not assert that Ketca is the lobby in question. One might infer that but it's a stretch and "failed verification" is correct. Johnuniq (talk) 07:11, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Levivich: That's a big stretch. It might be right but that conclusion is not in the source, aka failed verification. Johnuniq (talk) 08:29, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- If what MelanieN says is representative of overall interactions, then it's probably time other editors got a chance to also edit the article without effectively being restricted by QG. A topic ban for a few months, or more leniently, a 1RR restriction, could prove worthwhile. At any rate, this request is actionable. El_C 07:36, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- I could see how Awilley's suggestion of a personal "consensus required" sanction could serve as an effective middle way between a full topic ban and 1RR/0RR. El_C 19:27, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- @MelanieN: noted. Note that if QuackGuru fails to submit a (any) statement in response to this request, that would sway me more toward the topic ban end of the sanction spectrum. I would like to get a sense that they understand and are willing to work toward resolving the critical input here. As for their "borderline obsession," I'm fine with them having a narrow focus for significant duration — but, if they get so attached to their own works to the point that it hinders editorial collaboration, then indeed that is a problem this request ought to address. El_C 21:30, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- Back in October there was a lengthy AN/I thread about QG engaging in exactly the same behaviour as lead to this request, and his conduct was significantly criticised by the Arbitration Committee who warned him "that continuing to engage in a pattern of disruption to Wikipedia will result in further sanctions." It is evident from the above that he is continuing to disrupt the topic area so further sanctions are necessary. I would suggest a standard 1RR and a prohibition on adding or removing any tag disputed by any other editor (excluding editors blocked as a sock or meat puppet), unless there is a clear consensus to do so on the talk page of the article concerned. "Disputed" defined as (a) added or removed by another editor acting in good faith, and/or (b) subject to discussion on the article talk page. "Tag" applying to both inline tags (e.g. failed verification) and banner tags (e.g. needs additional citations) that apply to articles and/or sections. Both restrictions applying to the e-cigs topic area broadly interpreted and subject to appeal (together or individually) after 6 months. There would be no restriction on him starting or contributing to discussions about tags he or another user disputes, as long as he does so in good faith. I would also issue a warning that if these restrictions are not abided by or there is further disruption that a topic ban will very likely be the result.
Indeed having said all that, while I don't think a topic ban is required now, I will support one as a second choice if that is the consensus of other admins. Thryduulf (talk) 11:59, 7 February 2020 (UTC)- Based on others comments, I'm tending now to agree that the tagging restriction I suggested should be expanded to Awilley's suggested personal consensus required suggestion, but I'm also less against a straight topic ban than I was. Thryduulf (talk) 13:28, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
- I haven't engaged with QuackGuru for a couple of years now at least, but it looks to me like things haven't changed much since then. I think at the root of the problem is extreme OWNership of a topic area. Every battle, no matter how small, is fought to the bitter end. Every talk page comment is responded to. Every edit is reverted. Every nit is picked. In trying to mitigate behavior like this in the past I tried a 0RR rule, but quickly found that was being cleverly gamed. (This was back in 2015.) I think the previous topic ban from E-cigarettes and the ArbCom warning is probably enough that the next sanction should be a topic ban. But I would prefer to start with an attempt to throttle the most disruptive tendencies in a way that still allows constructive editing. My first thought would be something like a personal "consensus required" sanction (if an edit you make is reverted you may not reinstate that edit without consensus on the talk page). In my mind that would force a person to either become successful in building consensus or to drop disputes and move on. (And yes, I realize there are people in the topic area who will never agree with QG no matter how much they discuss, but I don't think those types of editors are in the majority.) ~Awilley (talk) 19:08, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- How practical is a "personal consensus required" sanction if
Every battle, no matter how small, is fought to the bitter end. Every talk page comment is responded to.
? We have evidence here of editors giving up on the topic because of this mentality and so they should not be able to claim consensus because those who disagree with them simply stop fighting. I am, however, in favor of trying to find some way to let QG still participate in the topic because in looking at the diffs presented here some real % of the time QG is right to challenge the text as compared to the source. For my out of the box thinking, I wonder if an ERRORS2 sort of situtation could be viable here. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 05:42, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
- @QuackGuru: thanks for responding. I'm not sure what you mean by
I am concerned that there may be no opportunity to examine in detail whether the content I tagged as failed verification did indeed fail verification.
I can tell you that I looked at every diff and the sources behind them which is why I came to my conclusion that I would be against a topic ban if some other solution can be found. However, for why I think a solution needs to be found let's dive into an example already discussed by Johnuniq and Levivich. In the creation of Nicotine pouch (by you) there are the sentencesKenya Tobacco Control Alliance objected to the entrance of nicotine pouches in Kenya.[2] They stated there is no reliable research to demonstrate nicotine pouches are safer than regular cigarettes.[2]
as part of a research section. You then tweaked these a few minutes later [30] [31] [32] and then moved it a few hours after that [33]. It then stays that way for a couple of months. In the midst of a series of back and forth edits between you and KristofferR he makes those senteces part of a new section called opposition [34] after which you tag them with citation needed [35]. A while later you add a further tag saying the word also fails verification [36]. Considering it was content you were responsible for and had worked on previously, why didn't you fix it if you decided upon a re-examination of the source that it was not sufficient? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 03:16, 11 February 2020 (UTC)- @Quack - thanks for explaining what you meant in terms of the ArbCom evidence (and an ANI thread which I closed as lack consensus for action, for which I had no opinion at the time on the merits). As for the exchange I examined above, your explanation doesn't assuage me. You added a citation needed for a sentence you wrote
The Kenya Tobacco Control Alliance objected to the entrance of nicotine pouches in Kenya.
The source for it is right there. It's the only source in the paragraph. And I would hope you would know a source is out there- you had already found it. I also don't get how the word also needs its own verification. It is being used as a transition. Maybe it's not needed - this strikes me as a language preference - but it definitely doesn't fail verification and adding a tag saying it does seems like the wrong way to go about arguing for your writing preference. I'm not weighing in on the middle sentence because I think it's a reasonable enough disagreement to have, but to me these other two sentences are a cast study of what Melanie suggested as a problem. Both you and Beeland have suggested remedies short of a topic ban. So far the kind of remedy short of a tban that seems to have any support among uninvolved sysops is Awiley's "personal consensus required". I'm not thrilled by that but also don't feel great substituting your tag ban unilaterally when overall consensus seems to be supporting Awiley's idea. Barkeep49 (talk) 03:26, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Quack - thanks for explaining what you meant in terms of the ArbCom evidence (and an ANI thread which I closed as lack consensus for action, for which I had no opinion at the time on the merits). As for the exchange I examined above, your explanation doesn't assuage me. You added a citation needed for a sentence you wrote
- @QuackGuru: thanks for responding. I'm not sure what you mean by
SashiRolls
Per the consensus here, SashiRolls is indefinitely banned from the topic of post-1932 American politics. The ban will be appealable in the standard six months. Best regards, ~Swarm~ {sting} 06:07, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning SashiRolls
Assumption of bad faiths, WP:ASPERSIONS
The behavior documented here is unabated. At least four users: (MrX, Snooganssnoogans, Objective3000, and WMSR) are now the target of baseless accusations of being members of a cabal. This bellicose behavior damages reputations, disrupts discussions, and erodes trust and collaboration. - MrX 🖋 14:26, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
Discussion concerning SashiRollsStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by SashiRolls
-- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 14:34, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by SnooganssnoogansI will try to be brief:
Statement by WMSRTo be frank, the diffs cited by MrX and Snooganssnoogans don't even begin to scratch the surface of SashiRolls's constant incivility on talk pages and with regard to edit warring. Looking purely at Talk:Media coverage of Bernie Sanders and Talk:Tulsi Gabbard 2020 presidential campaign Sashi demonstrates pretty clearly their belief that WP:FOC to everyone except them. I recently raised issues about personal attacks at WP:ANI, but they were not addressed. That complaint contains several more diffs. --WMSR (talk) 17:00, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Objective3000
Sashi’s last comment this morning: If you attempt to engage Sashi in discussion, you can be certain of two things. Sashi will demand that you focus on content. Sashi will focus on you. Often both in the same edit. Sashi has racked up an array of blocks from an impressive number of admins and arbcom for personal attacks, harassment, uncollaborative editing, aspersions, battelground, intimidation, nothere, disruptive editing and Wikihounding; has lost talk page access three times, and lost email access. Clearly there is a problem with behavior towards other editors. Blocks haven’t worked. Perhaps an indef TBan from AP2 and BLP to see if this is a problem dealing with controversial arenas. Or will that just shove the problem elsewhere? O3000 (talk) 17:48, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by PudeoIt seems that all the editors who SashiRolls says are tag-teaming have already submitted statements. SashiRolls' general position in the contentious topic (Media coverage of Bernie Sanders) has decent acceptance, as the article survived two well-participated AfDs as "no consensus". It is evident without a doubt that there is tag-teaming at play here. After Snooganssnoogans recently brought up SashiRolls on Awilley's talkpage, MrX and Objective3000 commented there within an hour[46]. I noticed this as well in an AN/I thread last month. In two comments I posted there, both were replied to by MrX and Objective3000. Based on the editor interaction tool with Objective3000 and MrX, it's fairly obvious they are following each other's edits to give back-up. They sometimes even reply for users on behalf of the other person:[47]. O3000 further states: The editor interaction tool can yield results for three different users
Comment by GoodDayI don't wish to elaborate, as it's difficult to pin down. But, it's frustrating to edit or discuss topics concerning the corporate-centrist -vs- progressive divide in the US Democratic Party. My experiences have left me feeling it's difficult to point out the DNC's & MSM's bias against progressives. Thus why I don't hang around these disputes, very often. GoodDay (talk) 20:17, 7 February 2020 (UTC) Statement by GMGIf I'm being honest, we have a user twice indeffed, and now subject to a one way IBAN, a two way IBAN, a TBAN, and a conduct restriction. Where exactly is the area where this user has contributed productively and collaboratively? Who is it this user has interacted with that hasn't been part of the cabal (myself included, four some odd years ago, which is exactly why I continue to generally avoid them, and most any article they're active on)? GMGtalk 22:37, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by JusdafaxSashi Rolls may or may not deserve sanctions here. However, a look at the link to the editor interaction tool provided by Puedo does in fact show remarkable unanimity in timing between 3 editors on a wide range of articles. I'd say that this deserves further scrutiny as well. Jusdafax (talk) 23:07, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by LevivichRecently I lamented at AN about how procedural fairness is not valued at AE. "Procedural fairness" includes not voicing an opinion on a sanction before the reported editor has even responded to the complaint. "Procedural fairness" means at least pretending that you're keeping an open mind until after you've heard from all parties and reviewed the evidence. Even if you don't think one of the parties deserves fairness, everyone else is watching, and they see that the decision makers do not have an open mind, and that has a predictable chilling effect, preventing editors from seeking help, and leaving problems to fester unaddressed. I'm not seeing personal attacks in the 12 diffs listed in this report, except for the "unemployed" bit. But that diff (along with others in this report) was already brought to a noticeboard, here: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1029#User:SashiRolls's behavior at Media coverage of Bernie Sanders, and closed by an admin with the comment, "I see nothing sanctionable in SashiRolls's conduct." So is bringing the same diff here WP:FORUMSHOPPING? I've recently heard the opinion expressed that if you take something to ANI and it's closed as not actionable, bringing the same thing to AE is forum shopping. In fact, I think an editor was recently sanctioned for that. Do these forum shopping rules get applied equally to all editors? Or is it because WSMR filed the ANI (and pinged Snoog), but MrX filed this AE, that it's not forum shopping? Of course no one is surprised that the noticeboard reports against Sashi are made by the same group of editors (who insist there is no cabal), each of whom has conveniently been available to comment quickly on the others' noticeboard reports, and who have the helpful habit of restoring each others' reverted edits, so none of them are pestered by WP:1RR, WP:3RR, or WP:BRD. I agree with Sashi that this is one for Arbcom (who won't voice an opinion on a final decision until after the evidence phase), as there seems to be no chance that the tag-teaming issue will even be looked at, never-mind addressed, here. Levivich 16:41, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by JormSashiRolls and they way they operate actively prevents me from engaging in discussions or articles that they are involved in because I just don't want to deal with the headache. The editor is an absolute net negative to the project and a simple topic ban is only going to kick the can further down the road and we will be back here within a handful of months, wasting time yet again. Hopefully people will not be swayed by pages of text attempting to rationalize their conspiracy theories.--Jorm (talk) 16:47, 8 February 2020 (UTC) Statement by Rusf10I am not going to review all the diffs because it would likely be a waste of time. The verdict was already delivered by biased admins before all the evidence was in anyway. How can anyone in good faith suggest a topic ban before the accused (SashiRolls) even had the chance to respond here? Levivich is right, if the admins cared about even having the appearance of objectivity, they would have given SashiRolls a reasonable amount of time to defend himself before calling for topic bans. I would tend to believe that there probably is some type of tag-teaming between MrX and Snoogans (and possibly others). Even this filing here has the appearance of a coordinated effort since SnoogansSnoogans posted a lengthy statement within one hour of the original filing. This probably needs to go to ArbCom.--Rusf10 (talk) 22:02, 8 February 2020 (UTC) Statement by Sir JosephI want to echo Levivich. Some admins commented before Sashi replied which does not seem fair. How can you rule on an AE action without hearing from both sides? Further, as he pointed out, some of the diffs were already adjudicated. You can ban Sashi, but the net result will end up just making the articles in the area even more biased. There is a reason why people don't edit in certain topic areas. I for one, don't want to be faced with it, so I try not to edit in political areas anymore. And people know that political topics on Wikipedia are very skewed to the left. Perhaps take a look at who is filing the complaint and others providing diffs and see how often they are involved in disputes as well. See how often the same names show up in political disputes. Sir Joseph (talk) 23:38, 8 February 2020 (UTC) Statement by JdcomixI've honestly tried to be uninvolved, but after they alleged me of harassment on their talk page even though I've only made 1 addition to it (look at the history), and skimming through the talk page at Media coverage of Bernie Sanders, I am strongly in support of sanctions. The editor being discussed is clearly not assuming good faith of the other editors on that article's talk page, and often makes baseless personal attacks against anyone who opposes them (see https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=939518348&oldid=939513414&title=Talk:Media_coverage_of_Bernie_Sanders). I'd probably be supporting an AP2 topic ban if it came to that. 01:47, 9 February 2020 (UTC) Statement by XenagorasMy opinion about SashiRolls: Disclaimer: I have never read the Media coverage of Bernie Sanders article or its talk page and am therefore unfamiliar with SashiRolls' conduct there. But I have witnessed SashiRoll's conduct towards myself on pages where I edit and found him to be friendly, productive and helpful. From my brief gazing at AfD discussions with SashiRolls' involvement, he seems to be an emotional individual which might cause him to have a low tolerance for getting annoyed. The Media coverage of Bernie Sanders article getting nominated for deletion three times caused SashiRolls distress. I would recommend SashiRolls to spend more time relaxing, not taking Wikipedia too serious, and in calm hours, read all the policies and guidelines about behavior and editing. And perhaps he can find a mentor who can help him handle difficult situations on Wikipedia more calmly and guide him on how to be and respond more disenganged. My opinion about content and/or conduct disputes with Snooganssnoogans, WMSR, MrX: I found it extremely time consuming, tedious and nearly impossible to insert pertinent reliably sourced content into articles when WMSR and/or MrX are opposed to it. Snooganssnoogans attempted to damage my reputation and discredit my future edits by making a false statement of fact about me [50]. He ignored my request to withdraw his damaging remark [51] and doubled down on it [52]. He also raised a false suspicion about me having a conflict of interest [53], for which he had zero evidence and no reason to believe I had a COI. For all of this I complained towards him [54], which he also ignored. MrX has caused severe content disputes for misrepresenting sources one month ago and his refusal to respond to me addressing his edits, and the disputes got more severe recently for his political censorship, tendentious editing and stonewalling. The most recent part of this long lasting dispute can be read here and I complained to him there [55] (many links to MrX' problematic edits and which policy they violate are included in my complaint). WMSR raised a false and baseless suspicion about me being sock puppet and requested a sock puppet investigation against me and 8 other editors. [56] As we all know, the penalty for sock puppets is an indefinite ban. He had zero evidence for his suspicion, for which his investigation request was thrown out of window by the admins/clerk.[57]. WMSR recently made several severe false accusations against me, including but not limited to his failure to assume the assumption of good faith and accusing me of casting aspersions and [58] and personal attacks [59], for which I complained to him [60], to which he reacted with denial and hostility.[61] WMSR participates in the same severe content dispute as described above for MrX. WMSR's edits include political censorship and stonewalling and other problems, which can be read here and for which I complained to him [62], to which he reacted with denial. [63] In this current content dispute, MrX, WMSR and Calton have been mirroring each other's arguments via edit summaries and talk page comments and repeated each other's reverts (which enhances the stonewalling referenced above by enabling them to prevent content from other editors getting into an article without violating WP:3RR themselves): MrX makes an unwarranted large 3-part revert Additional interaction details on false "sock puppet" suspicions by WMSR and MrX:
WMSR raised false sock puppet suspicion against Rotaryenginepete and StanTheMan0131 at ANI at 06:46, 26 December. MrX Rotaryenginepete was blocked at ANI for WP:NOTHERE on 31 December. Later, in February, after I told WMSR [72] that I know he had raised a false, evidence free sock puppet suspicion against me, WMSR claimed [73], Statement by AtsmeI agree for the most part with Levivich, Jusdafax, and Sir Joseph. The reason we have AE is to stop/reduce disruption in highly controversial topic areas that are subject to DS, and such actions should be executed without causing potential harm to NPOV. To single out one editor when all have been disruptive participants does not bring resolution to the heart of the problem, especially if our admins will/have reviewed the number of times each of the following named editors have been bringing opposing editors to AE, ARCA, ANI, AN, etc.; therefore, a plausible solution in this case (one that would send a loud message if our admins are treating all editors equally) would be a 6-month AP2 t-ban for the 3 key players here; i.e., MrX, Snoogans and Sashi. Each have a POV to contribute, and the only true way to reach NPOV is to engage in a civil level of debate/discussion on the TP, (and not t-ban an editor for participating in lengthy discussions that are required where DS/consensus required are imposed). Tag-team editing is a major annoyance and causes the editor being tag-teamed (perceived or otherwise) to become defensive - better yet, instead of referring to it as tag-teaming, let's call it collaborative editing among those with a similar POV who reject an opposing POV which carries with it the potential to be noncompliant with NPOV, so there is certainly justification for all 3 to experience a 6 mos t-ban. Atsme Talk 📧 20:36, 9 February 2020 (UTC) Result concerning SashiRolls
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Cleisthenes2
The appeal is declined. Any future appeal is unlikely to succeed without evidence of productive collaborative editing in other topic areas. Thryduulf (talk) 13:17, 13 February 2020 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by Cleisthenes2I was topic banned from Toby Young after trying to work towards a satisfying compromise on the language of the lede. As I think the record shows, I repeatedly suggested alternative wordings that would restore NPOV (all were almost immediately rejected), was always calm and polite in my comments, and was consistently open to compromise wordings. I did try to counter repeated reverts and attacks from one user called Fae, and this got me banned (together with a good number of attacks from Fae herself and a couple of close allies). Though I'd rather not talk about other users, I think it's worth pointing out a) that Fae has a long record of disruption on articles of this sort, and was eventually banned from all articles to do with sex and gender and b) that she seems particularly incapable of neutrality or compromise when it comes to Young (see e.g. her comment on Young's talk page that "Young is absolutely desperate to appear controversial, when any real analysis shows he's just a sad troll that confuses right wing politics with hating all minorities"). Obviously, she has a right to her opinions, but I'm not sure that it's good for Wikipedia if someone with that kind of burning antipathy can get someone banned from editing a topic, especially someone who was working very civilly to move towards a change that it looked like most of the other users were sympathetic to. Thanks for considering this. If the ban is removed I intend to continue to work towards consensus in a reasonable way, but I also don't see why I shouldn't act to counter the kind of bullying that I was exposed to by Fae (and that many others on here have also apparently experienced). Cleisthenes2 (talk) 19:07, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by GalobtterStatement by Black KiteI'm posting in the involved section because it was myself who raised the original WP:ANI report that led to the sanction (which can be seen here). My observations;
Black Kite (talk) 20:47, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
Special thanks to those reading this with an open mind, and a willingness to look back at the history of the entry on Young. Cleisthenes2 (talk) 10:22, 13 February 2020 (UTC) Statement by FæI have not been made a party to this case and did not know this request was made until a ping today. Adding to this section just because my name has been used so much, but I do not consider myself involved apart from attempting to handle the massive amounts of disruptive editing to the Toby Young article a year or so ago, which appeared to be a spin campaign and I was interested in checking against better sources using my access to LexisNexis. As far as I am aware, none of my activities over the last 10 months has been anywhere near Cleisthenes2, so there is no edit that could possibly be linked to that Cleisthenes2 could claim is an argument or dispute. Others have said enough, there is no extra evidence that I am aware of that would be useful to this case one way or the other. This is a single-purpose account, clearly with no interest in Wikipedia apart from repeatedly "massaging" the Young article in one direction. With regard to the claim about "bullying", this is a serious claim of harassment that should have serious evidence, but there are zero diffs because it's nonsense. An appeal that opens with tendentious griefing against another editor and promotes a secret-cabal conspiracy with "close allies", but offers no verifiable evidence, shows that this is not a meaningful appeal. By the way, this should be irrelevant considering how easy it is to avoid speculating about sex or gender of other editors when you are uncertain, but could everyone just stick to User:Fæ#Pronoun? Thanks --Fæ (talk) 13:18, 12 February 2020 (UTC) With respect to the later (misplaced) statement from Cleisthenes2, the claim that I am a vandal is a personal attack. There are zero diffs because it's yet more nonsense deliberately misusing this Arbcom enforcement page to cast aspersions. The maligning of Black Kite and myself as being incompetent is bizarre. The decision to keep the simple fact that "[Toby Young] resigned over a week later after misogynistic and homophobic Twitter posts" is fully based on the best quality sources available and has been validated as a community decision after several lengthy discussions and votes. This has never been about "sides", getting the article in the best state possible has always been about reliable sources and BLP policies. That Cleisthenes2's default position is to demean other contributors and attempts even now to reuse self publications as sources to prefer over basic facts of precisely the words published over several years in Toby Young's own twitter stream, and how good quality journalists have correctly and factually summarised the controversy, shows this appeal is a non-starter. Wikipedia is tolerant of alternative viewpoints being expressed in order to ensure encyclopaedic articles are wide-ranging, but it should not tolerate the disruption caused by casting aspersions, or gaming the system. --Fæ (talk) 12:02, 13 February 2020 (UTC) Statement by (involved editor 2)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Cleisthenes2Result of the appeal by Cleisthenes2
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Calton
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Calton
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Springee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 04:46, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Calton (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American_politics :
- Request enforcement of WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA related to article that is subject to Discretionary Sanctions. Per recommendation here [[75]] I brought this civility complaint to ARE vs ANI. The diffs in question related to the Andy Ngo article which is currently subject to DS and 1RR per AP2.
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 31 January 2020 Bad faith attack placed on my talk page in response to a concern that editor is restoring material against BRD. Accusing me of being on a "whitewashing crusade".
- 11 February 2020 Same as above but different material 2 weeks later, "Not my problem, POV pusher."
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- 28 January 2020 Aggressively accusing another editor of pushing a POV on a Bernie Sanders related topic. "And you have a problem with anything that gets in the way of whatever POV you're trying to push at the time." This accusation of bad faith isn't related to my edits but it's evidence that Calton's uncivil behavior was directed at other editors during the same time period.
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- [[76]], BLP and AP2.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
This is a long term editor with an extensive history of civility related blocks taking what should have been a simple Bold, Revert, Discuss and turning it into a personal attack.
The Andy Ngo article is subject to DS and 1RR (reduced from BRD required 29 Dec [[77]]). In both of the above incidents new edits were added by one editor then rejected by another then restored by Calton. In both cases I asked Calton to self revert in the spirit of BRD. In both cases I was met with bad faith comments on my talk page.
The first diff I listed accused me of a "whitewashing crusade" via my talk page.
- It was related to the following chain of events. In the January the BOLD material was originally added here [[78]]. First removal here [[79]]. Restored here [[80]]. Second removal here[[81]]. At that point the ONUS should have been on any editor wishing to restore the change. Calton restores [[82]]. I remove it noting the addition has now been challenged by 3 editors [[83]]. The original editor restores it 5 days later [[84]]. I revert noting NOCON and suggesting they start a talk page discussion for inclusion [[85]]. Calton reverts again while suggesting the burden to get consensus is on me for rejecting the change [[86]]. At this point I ask them to self revert via their talk page [[87]]. The reply was an accusation on my talk page of whitewashing. [[88]]. I raised a civility concern with El_C as they are an admin familiar with the article [[89]]. As it was a single incident I was hoping for a "That did break the rules, don't do that again" informal warning.
Two week later a similar situation occurs and Calton posts "Not my problem, POV pusher" to my talk page.
- It starts with a BOLD edit [[90]] which was quickly rejected by another editor [[91]]. Another editor restores it [[92]]. I revert with edit summaries [[93]]. Calton quickly restores [[94]]. I again ask that they follow BRD, self revert and open a discussion [[95]]. The quick response on my talk page was an accusation of POV pushing [[96]].
I'm afraid that Calton took the lack of response the first time as license to repeat the behavior.
Calton has an extensive history of civility issues per their block log [[97]]. Blocks related to civility on:
- 3 Aug 2006, blocked for repeated personal attacks
- 23 Aug 2008, Persistent incivility and taunting of other users
- 19 Sept 2009, Continued incivility and taunting after previous block
- 7 Mar 2013, Personal attacks or harassment: racist edit sumamries & general awful attitude to others. This was an indef block then reverted per ANI but included the following warning, "any further use of edit summaries to make any sort of disparaging comments about other editors will lead to another block"
- 15 Apr 2015, Further use of edit summaries to make disparaging comments about other editors, after being clearly infomred that doing so would lead to another block.
- 27 Jan 2016, Personal attacks or harassment
- 25 May 2019, Same aggressive inperpersonal behaviour as last time
It is understood that some topics are inherently going to get people's emotions up. However, this is why it is critical to strictly follow rules like WP:FOC, WP:NOCON, WP:BRD etc. If new material has been rejected the next step should be take it to the talk page. Refusal to do so while posting bad faith comments to the talk pages of others should result in a topic ban or similar sanction. If the comments directed at me were isolated examples I would hope any admin would given them a mild rebuke with an understanding that they not do it again. Calton, however, has a long history of incivility and rather than taking my first admin talk page discussion as a sign they were crossing a line, they seem to take it as proof their posting to my talk page was OK to repeat. That is why I decided this should come to here (though I originally asked about ANI).
Reply to Calton
1. In both cases we had a clear disagreement between at least 4 editors regarding a revision. In both cases you were not restoring the long standing consensus version of the text per NOCON. In both cases you did not open or participate in a talk page dialog to justify why the edit should stand. In both cases I requested that you restore the previous consensus text absent any discussion to support the new text.
2. POV pushing example. One was a short term 1RR restriction from 5 years ago. The other is retracted warning. It was retracted once the admin saw that I wasn't the one who made the comment in question.[[98]].
3. Accusing others of being a POV pusher is an accusation that they are acting in bad faith.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Notification here [[99]]
Discussion concerning Calton
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Calton
User:Springee -- long-time POV pusher (two quick examples)-- twice came to my talk page to demand that I reverse my undoing of his reversions, which he could not do because 1RR. That's his problem, not mine. --Calton | Talk 11:49, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
Oh, and a reminder for Springee about the misuse of terms: it's "bad faith" in the absence of evidence to the contrary. Now, anyone who's edited in any topic touching on American Politics knows about Springee's POV pushing. I'm still getting over the flu so don't want to waste time on this, but if I have to, I can simply go through the noticeboards for more than theses tidbits picked up from the Wikipedia:Arbitration enforcement log regarding gun control and American politics. --Calton | Talk 11:59, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
P.S.: Maybe you shouldn't repeat that BS bit about "racist edit summaries", which was an absolute garbage claim.
Statement by Red Rock Canyon
This looks pretty clear-cut to me. Calton edit-warred to reinsert challenged material without discussion and then attacked Springee when called on it. That article is an unpleasant enough place to edit already without behavior like what Calton has shown here. Additionally, there's this edit summary [100] ("pro-male myass") from a few weeks earlier. That certainly isn't sanctionable on its own, but it's clear from Springee's evidence and from Calton's reply above that this editor has exhibited a pattern of incivility, personal attacks, and battleground behavior and has no intention of changing. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 17:15, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
Looking through the talk and article histories, it appears that Calton's only contributions to this article were reverts, and they have never once posted on the talk page to discuss those reverts. Some of those were justified, but as shown in Springee's evidence, they also repeatedly reverted against consensus to reinsert contested material. This article has been the subject of numerous edit wars and has been protected several times. Drive-by reverts and incivility only makes an already unpleasant situation worse. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 19:40, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Calton
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.