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June 9

Gospel Breakfast

What is the origin and any verifiable history surrounding the phrase "gospel breakfast". Thanks in advance for any help with this.

I think it is actually the Last Supper. --Brand спойт 11:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't verify a specific origin for the phrase, but to me it would make sense if the tradition originated from the incident in John 19, where Jesus makes breakfast , and Peter is told to take care of the flock. --Seejyb 21:06, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

In all sincerity, the kind of event I associate with "gospel breakfast" is like this one. --Metropolitan90 03:04, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I see. That seems quite common (now that I've googled the phrase). But US gospel has a flavour of it's own. In a local Methodist church (in Africa) a gospel breakfast is a sober community building and direction discussing event, held on a Sunday in lieu of a formal service. That does not help the questioner much, unfortunately --Seejyb 16:51, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Shakespeare

I am beginning the process of writing articles for each of Shakespeare's sonnets. Would it be considered original research to engage in some light, unadventurous analysis of the text? I realize that sometimes criticism can be subjective, but perhaps explicative analysis of generally-held interpretations would improve ones understanding of the article and improve the quality of Wikipedia. Adambiswanger1 04:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

It wouldn't be original research if you could source your comments. If you're writing generally-held interpretations, you should be able to find them written somewhere (such as a pedagogic book, the kind they often use in schools, or in the notes in a collection of poems) and cite these sources. If you're not sure how to include the sources, post them (and roughly what they say that is relevant) on the article talk page, drop me a note and I'll add them. Skittle 12:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

The rule I follow (and I sometimes have to bat away charges of OR) is that if an interpretation can be found in 3 or more sources, you can regard it as non-controversial, as "common knowledge," and therefore don't need to note it. For example, saying that My mistress's eyes are nothing like the sun is a poem written to ironically praise the mistress at the same time as deflating romantic conventions is an interpretation, but there's no way you'd need to note that. Every person who says anything about the sonnet says as much, so noting is just silly. Between that extreme and, say, presenting a Greenblatt observation (repeated by 3 other New Historicists) as true, there is a continuum. The less controversial and common a reading is, the less you'd need to cite it, I'd say. Geogre 12:29, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

You do still have to source 'common knowledge', but people might be a bit more lenient about leaving it in while you do. After all, many things are common knowledge and not true. Obvious it may be, but you still need to cite it, at least loosely. Skittle 13:37, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I think we differ on this and must remain at difference. One needs to be able to cite, but actually citing would make articles on artworks infinite in their footnotes. Like I said, it's a continuum. The more novel and fringe, the greater the need to cite. The more obvious-as-a-stone it is, the less. Ultimately, it's up to the editor to judge carefully and to be prepared, if necessary, to cite. However, if a single person asks for a source of something absolutely the case, it might be possible to cite on the talk page. Again, it depends, and there isn't a rule, except to say that you need to be able to cite everything, but citing everything just generates clutter and devalues the citations. Geogre 14:01, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

If you are able to cite, the source should be in the article. If readers can't see the source, what good is it? It doesn't have to make the footnotes infinite, because if you are using a couple of books as a source for your whole 'interpretation' section, you only need to footnote them once each, at the end of the section. If the whole article draws on common ideas, you can list a couple of books as bibliography. Being able to cite is not enough, as what happens if you go off somewhere and someone wants to know how you justified something? Skittle 14:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks that helps alot. I'll spread the word to other editors Adambiswanger1 13:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I am looking fro Shakespeare's works in the Japanese Language? Thanks, ukupfront@yahoo.com

Can cheat device patch codes be copyrighted?

Often when searching for Game Genie (or similar) patch codes I find the author has made claims of copyright (see The Code Hut for instance). I'm not asking for genuine legal advice, but are such claims valid under US copyright law?

The way I see it patch codes are facts, and therefore uncopyrightable. The Master Sword dealing 3 damage would be a fact, and that damage rating being stored in the memory address 7FFFFF would also be a fact. Therefore you can claim ownership of your presentation of these facts, but not of the facts themselves.

So, anyway, am I right or are they? Garrett^Talk 03:10, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

(IANAL) Yes, with the caveat that in a number of jurisdictions collections of bare facts may be copyrightable works. So if you copy a single patch code you're in the clear, but if you take a whole bunch they can come after you for that. See database rights. EdC 06:10, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

• Patches are computer programs and although fixing an error in an existing program is less exciting than creating a new one from the ground up, I would say that writing such a program can be seen as an act of creativity and is therefore copyrightable. It's not the fact or error that's copyrighted, but the program/patch. And facts can actually be copyrighted. I could for example write a book on the party game Mafia and copyright it. People would be prohibited from copying the exact wording of the text and present it as their own (or copy it and cheat me out of the income for said text), but they would still be allowed to write about the facts of the game (i.e. the basic day/night format, voting and common strategies). - 131.211.210.10 08:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

"Facts" in a legally defined sense cannot be copyrighted. Certain expressions can, and certain arrangements of them can, but not facts themselves. When one is talking about "facts about a fictional work," though, it begins to slide into being a derivative work very quickly. Fictional works are generally more strongly protected by courts in the U.S. than are non-fiction works. --Fastfission 14:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

• My guess is that the most relevant caselaw would be Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc., but that doesn't really shed light on this question. Looking at the compilations of the codes themselves, they look at a lot like they would fall under some form of "slavish copying" to me, and not creative works, though there would be a very weak argument to the fact that selecting out which codes were "beneficial" requires some subjectivity, but it would be a very weak claim IMO. In the end, I'd guess the knowledge that X code has X effect is not copyrightable, and neither is the collection of them. IANAL, etc. --Fastfission 14:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Hm, some very interesting replies! I had no idea even the database claim has been challenged. For my part I'm only intending to pick out a few choice codes in order to embellish some guides without delaying for permission, and it looks like I can definitely do that. Thanks for all the feedback. :) Garrett^Talk 07:38, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Birklid v. Boeing Co

I can not figure out what this case is. I would be very grateful if you could help me with a brief summary. thank you.

Try e.g. this. --Brand спойт 11:55, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Newgate nonsense

Ran across this in a Newgate Calendar: Writ of Capias ad Computandum. Neither WP nor WT has anything on it. Anyone know? This was from at least ~1630. 68.39.174.238 11:17, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Writ of "amount to compute?" It sounds...strange. It may be nonsense, or it might be a one-time writ demanding loot (to be counted to determine the extent of a theft) or records of a fraud (demanding the ledgers). It could be a valid court demand, but it's nothing I've ever heard of before. Then again, the codex was still...fluid. Giles Jacob would come later, as would Shenstone and Blackmore. Geogre 12:25, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I have found a reference to it at the Legal Dictionary. From the description provided there, it appears to be a writ to arrest a defendant who has failed to appear before an auditor. Road Wizard 20:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Islamic Republic

Does a man who wants to run to become a member of the Assembly of Experts have to be a mullah, that is, does he need to have attained doctoral-level education in Islam? If not, do you know how many of the 86 members are not akhoonds?Patchouli 11:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

FYI, I believe this question is about Iran. StuRat 20:45, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow

I recently received an e-mail, which claimed the following.

Abraham Lincoln was elected to Congress in 1846 and John F. Kennedy was elected to Congress in 1946.

Abraham Lincoln was elected President in 1860 and JFK in 1960. Lincoln 's secretary was named Kennedy while Kennedy's - Lincoln.

Both were particularly concerned with civil rights. Both wives lost their children while living in the White House.

Both presidents were shot on a Friday and both in the head. Lincoln was shot at the Ford theater, Kennedy was shot in "Lincoln" made by "Ford". Lincoln was as shot in a theater and his assassin ran and hid in a warehouse. Kennedy was shot from a warehouse and his assassin ran and hid in a theater. Both presidents were assassinated by Southerners and were succeeded by Southerners named Johnson. John Wilkes Booth was born in 1839 and Lee Harvey Oswald - in 1939. Both assassins were known by their three names and both names are composed of fifteen letters and both assasins were assassinated before their trials. Andrew Johnson, who succeeded Lincoln, was born in 1808 while Lyndon Johnson, who succeeded Kennedy, was born in 1908.

A week before Lincoln was shot, he was in Monroe, Maryland. And a week before Kennedy was shot, he was with Marilyn Monroe.

Creepy, huh? --Brand спойт 11:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

That's as old as the hills. See http://www.snopes.com/history/american/linckenn.htm Jooler 11:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Sometimes these things are made up, I recently recieved one qouting all these numbers about 9/11 and how they are all related to the number 911, and a passage from the koran about how an eagle cleanses the islamic world after years of hurt (supposedly reffering to america), it all turned out to be bullshit, the numbers were fiddled, and the passage was made up. Philc _T^E_C^I 12:05, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

We have an article on these supposed coincidences. See List of similarities between Abraham Lincoln and John F. Kennedy. JackofOz 12:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Keep in mind that a coincidence is not amazing. What would be amazing is if Kennedy and Lincoln had nothing in common. You can pick any two random people and find all kinds of coincidences. There are only 12 months - so the chance is high that they were born in the same month. Go back to their grandparents. Each person has at least 4 grandparents (no W. Virgina jokes), which means they likely have 8 names (first/middle for each grandparent). The chance is very high that any two people have at least one grandparent name in common. It goes on and on. I like a comment some physicist made: A coincidence isn't amazing. A complete lack of coincidences is. --Kainaw ^(talk) 12:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

My only comment on that is that the chance of having the same birth month as another person chosen at random is 1/12 = 8.33%. This is not exactly what I would call a "high" probability. JackofOz 12:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the probability of a date falling in a particular month is not a constant, but will vary on the length of the month. If it's a month of 31 days, the probability is 8.46%; for a month of 30 days, it's 8.21%; and if it's February, the chances are 7.73%. But it's that level of magnitude we're talking about. JackofOz 13:17, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

The cahnce of finding someone with their birthday in a specific month is indeed 1/12, but I suspect the chance of finding two people with their birthdays in the same month out of the list of presidents is considerably more. After all, once you have more than 12 presidents it becomes a certainty. Skittle 13:35, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, more births occur in some months than in others, so I suspect the chance would be higher than the theoretical 1/12. - Mgm|^(talk) 21:20, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Or like Penn and Teller in their Bullsh*t show talking about the virgin mary grilled cheese, "Think how many billions of grilled cheese sandwiches are eaten every year. It would be crazy to think that there could not be at least a few that looked like a woman with a scarf on her head, hell most of us have probably eaten one without realizing it." Nowimnthing 12:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

This is probably covered in our article mentioned by JackofOz, but the place Booth was shot (not really assassinated) is always described as a barn, not a warehouse. Also, Oswald usually went by two names in his lifetime (Lee Oswald). --Cam

While some of the data was likely massaged to make it appear to be more of a coincidence than it really is, there still does seem to be an amazing amount of coincidence there, especially if you only look at the short list of assassinated US Presidents for similarities. However, if you look at the huge list of all things ever compared for similarities (the 9-11 attacks vs Pearl Harbor, the two space shuttle disasters, etc.), I suppose you would expect to eventually find a pair with an amazing degree of similarities. Also, it's possible that Oswald arranged for some of the coincidences, based on his knowledge of the Lincoln assassination. Nut jobs sometimes do that type of thing. StuRat 20:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

BTW, Booth wasn't assassinated, he was simply tracked down by the authorities, who found him holed up in a barn. True, the particular officer who fired the fatal shot fired against orders, but nonetheless he was cleared of all charges of misconduct and awarded the bounty for tracking down Lincoln's killer. Rather a different story from that of Jack Ruby, I'd say. Loomis51 02:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

One thing the article doesn't really say is that neither Booth nor Oswald was ever convicted of the crime. There's a considerable amount of evidence that supports the view that Oswald was not the killer of JFK at all. There's certainly room for reasonable doubt. So if anyone arranged for anything to be coincidental, it's less likely to have been Oswald doing the arranging. JackofOz 05:51, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

The only reason they weren't convicted is that they were dead and we don't bother trying dead people in the US. This does not justify a conclusion that they were innocent. By the same justification, one could argue that, since Hitler never was tried and convicted at the Nuremberg trials, he must therefore be innocent. StuRat 04:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

That's a bit wild, StuRat, even for you (lol). I never said either of them was innocent, I said that in Oswald's case there is room for reasonable doubt. There has never been any doubt Booth killed Lincoln, because he was seen in the act (although there is some suggestion that the person shot in the barn was not Booth, but that's another story). No such evidence exists for Oswald, and there's plenty of evidence that others were involved. At the very least there was a conspiracy, it certainly was not just Oswald acting alone. As to who fired the fatal shot/s, people have been debating this for 43 years and probably will do so forever. Better minds than mine have concluded Oswald could not possibly have been the sole assassin of JFK, but whether he was somehow involved and therefore complicit in the crime, or just an innocent patsy who had nothing (or nothing significant) to do with it, is one of life's great imponderables. JackofOz 07:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Guessing game

Is anyone aware of a game on the internet where they show you the photo of a person, and you have to guess where he's from, based on facial features, costume, etc. ? Or, maybe, any other similar games? deeptrivia (talk) 12:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I vaguely remember some sort of game where only a section of the face (for example, just the mouth and chin, or just the area around the eyes) would be displayed, and you would have to guess what celebrity was being shown. I don't even remember whether this was online, on TV, or in print. --Tachikoma 14:28, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, there is always gash or tash. (Disturbing image warning. Do not click this at the office.). --Shantavira 14:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, by similar games, I meant games involving indentification of nationality of a person based on typical characteristics, based on hints, visual or otherwise. deeptrivia (talk) 15:53, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Sound like one of the sites created with the goal of proving that there is absolutely no such thing as race or ethnicity. So, they show you a black man wearing African clothing and ask where he is from. Africa, right? Nope, he's actually an Inuit in dark makup and clothing that he normally would never ever wear. See - there's no such thing as race! --Kainaw ^(talk) 19:24, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I mean, I met an Asian guy, and asked if he were Korean, and he was! I was pretty impressed with myself. Then I asked a girl if she was Thai, and she really was. If this were not enough, I asked another Asian guy if he were Vietnamese, and he really was! This is too much for me, and I want to test if I have a special gift of guessing people's nationalities. I need something like a game for testing myself :) deeptrivia (talk) 22:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

We used to play "Dead or Canadian" once in awhile, but not on the internet. --LarryMac 19:31, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

obesity tax

hi, i recently watched a documentary (in the UK) which basically argued that obese people should pay more income tax than non-obsese people. i found myself (to my eternal shame) thinking that the arguments where quite compelling (especially in the UK where the government picks up 100% of people's health care costs - the documentary estimated that all in all, obese people cost taxpayers £3 billion!) anyway, aside from the slightly nazi implications, are there any legal reasons (in the UK elsewhere) why such a scheme couldn't infact become reality? we do, for example, tax cigarettes on the same basis... thanks! 195.93.21.67 13:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't follow you. If you were convinced by the arguments, how could this be a cause for shame? JackofOz 13:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I think a tax directly on a certain sort of people (such as increased income tax for the obese) would fall foul of Human Rights legislation. However, the actual proposals I have heard involve increasing the VAT on heavily processed foods and very fatty/sugary products, possibly using this to fund subsidies on fresh fruit/veg. This is a much closer analogy to the cigarette tax, since it is a tax on the products people choose to use, not on the people. Smokers do not pay increased income tax, but they pay more tax if they choose to buy cigarettes. Equally, people who bought 'unhealthy' foods would be paying more tax in the form of VAT, but could choose to buy cheaper, more healthy foods. Interestingly, processed food usually already carry VAT that fresh, unprocessed foods do not, but it isn't consistent. Skittle 13:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps instead of a Value Added Tax, it should be called a (nutritional) Value Lost Tax ? :-) StuRat 20:27, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

ps. It could be a cause of shame in the same way as my mother considers it a cause of shame when she finds herself agreeing with the Daily Mail on immigrants. The feeling often suggests you've overlooked something. Skittle 13:33, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

its not that i'm actually "ashamed" ashamed - its just that i recognise that taxing people based on how they look is a incredably slippery slope. the documentary was suggesting an income tax on fat people but i guess increased VAT on fatty foods seems much more sensible.. 21:06, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh right. In any battle between the heart and the mind over your attitude to some proposal, I'd suggest you follow your heart. It may be legally and intellectually watertight, but if it still feels wrong, then as Skittle says, there's something else that's important to you that the proposal violates. JackofOz 02:30, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Our Mutual Friend, leaves, and Mr. Twemlow

I've begun to read Our Mutual Friend by Charles Dickens, and I'm rather puzzled by the description of Mr. Twemlow in Chapter 2. This description refers to Mr. Twemlow as a "piece of dinner-furniture". The text goes on to say:

"Mr. and Mrs. Veneering, for example, arranging a dinner, habitually started with Twemlow, and then put leaves in him, or added guests to him. Sometimes, the table consisted of Twemlow and half-a-dozen leaves; sometimes, of Twemlow and a dozen leaves; sometimes, Twemlow was pulled out to his utmost extent of twenty leaves."

I've figured out that the Veneerings must see Mr. Twemlow as someone essential to have at a dinner party, but at the same time, they must not value him as a person, hence the "piece of dinner-furniture" comparison.

I'm guessing that the leaves might refer to tables that can be extended by adding additional panels (leaves?) when hosting additional guests. Going further with this metaphor, if Mr. Twemlow is like a dinner table, then the addtional leaves must represent the additional guests, who like Twemlow, are not particularly valued as people but rather as furniture or decor--something to lend prestige to Mr. and Mrs. Veneering.

Does this interpretation sound reasonable, or am I missing something here?

Needless to say, this is not a homework question.--Tachikoma 13:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

You're exactly right. He's a professional diner-out, like Hithladaeus in Utopia. The satire is both on him and the Veneerings, who are superficial people who don't look past the surface, and Dickens is making fun of the Victorian bourgeoise obsession with the "right" people for a dinner party. (Cf. Carlysle saying, "If Jesus Christ were to come today, people would not even crucify Him. They would invite him to dinner, hear what He had to say, and make fun of him after He left."). So, you add pairings of guests (leaves) to him to make a dinner. Geogre 13:54, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the extremely quick response. I hope to eventually expand the article on Our Mutual Friend, and it generally helps to actually read the book before contributing to a book's Wikipedia article. At this point, I don't see the "furniture and leaves" question as being essential to such an article, but it does help my own understanding of what's going on.

Thanks again! --Tachikoma 14:05, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I have a question. I don't expect anyone to be able to answer, but no reason not to ask it. Character names like "Veneering" or "Pistol" (Colley Cibber) or "Aimwell" (Wycherly) or "Allworthy" (Fielding) are names that describe the characteristics or actions of the characters. Is there a name for this rhetorical device? I've seen, recently, someone try to coin the term "aptonym" for people whose names are what they do (and the example was Tony Snow, who snows the press in his current job), but that smells false to me. Geogre 16:01, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure that such a term exists, but I can't quite remember it. The term that comes to mind is antonomasia, but I'm not sure if that's it.--Tachikoma 16:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Not it, but thanks for the hint. It's maddening. I'm similarly sure that such a term should exist, but I still have been unable to find it. I've thought of chasing down the discussions of Theophrastus and of Humour Theory (which I have done), but nothing has yielded yet. Aristophanes gave his characters names that "meant" what they did, so there has certainly been time to come up with a term. Geogre 20:14, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Allegorical names, label names, aptronyms, euonyms (in decreasing order of my opinion of their pertinence...). - Nunh-huh 04:59, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I use compounds, too, for describing them. It's one of those things, though -- an area where it seems like the old Rhetoricians nodded. My own compound is even less elegant: "characteristic onomastics." Geogre 11:57, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

A "leaf" is an additional panel added to a table. I don't know how such things were arranged in Dickens's time, but there are many expandable dining tables for sale today. There is a divide in the middle of the table, two people pull the table at opposite ends and the divide opens up, and the leaf, a panel of the same material as the rest of the table, is inserted into the opening, making for a longer table. There are also tables in which the leaves are on hinges and hang below the table, fastened to it underneath until they are unfastened, pulled up and set in place. User:Zoe|^(talk) 16:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I actually own a table like that, but I never knew that the extensions were called leaves. Continuing with Our Mutual Friend, I imagine that the sentence "Twemlow was pulled out to his utmost extent of twenty leaves" must suggest that at a very large dinner party, Mr. Twemlow must end up very far indeed from the hosts. Thanks for the definition. --Tachikoma 18:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Talking Name might be the term you're looking for. --82.207.236.114 21:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

That's not a bad term, whether a coinage or ancient. Thanks. (Probably Talking name, if we have an article on it.) Geogre 02:22, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Policies and procedures

I have seen P&P's used as inviolable rules and regulations yet an authorative definition is difficult to find in regards to their purpose and function. Many definitions vaguely indicated that they are 'guidelines' or 'best practices' which suggest that they are not rigid but flexible depending on the particular situation and the intent of an organization.

Anybody have anything definitive on this?

Thanks for your assistance and your time.

Christopher

You might want to have a look at the Policy and Standing operating procedure articles.

My own experience in corporations (product design) is that results are what matter. In areas such as production, accounting, and human resources, I'm sure, the policies and procedures are more important. --Halcatalyst 22:34, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Ayman Al Zwahiri

• Removed discussion. There was no pretence of a question, only soapboxing and chatting.

Please do not use Wikipedia as a soapbox or a chatroom. If you do not have a real question or a real answer, consider not posting your thought to the reference desk. Skittle 20:56, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

USA

I looked over United States Constitution but couldn't find an answer quickly: Does a state of the USA have the right to leave the union? What would be required for this, would a majority vote of the state's population be sufficient, or would there need to be a majority in all of the USA? In view of the recent polarization, has any non-bible-belt state seriously considered leaving the Union? I am convinced that for example California could well hold its own as a sovereign state, and would economically probably be better off than as a part of the US. dab (ᛏ) 18:37, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

"Does a state of the USA have the right to leave the union?" Per the American Civil War, no. As the victors, the North used what amounted to military judicial review to define statehood as a one-way-only process. See secession for more. — Lomn Talk 18:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course, it's also worth noting that the "recent polarization" is particularly hard to define. What makes the current red-state-blue-state hype objectively more divisive than, say, the divided attitudes towards the civil rights movement of the 60s? — Lomn Talk 19:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

It might be possible, however, for federal government to allow a state to secede. I don't think there's anything in the constitution that would prohibit it, so probably it would just take an act of congress. --Ornil 19:17, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

The Constitution doesn't say, either way. The North did not attack the South after succession in the US Civil War, but rather the South attacked the Union base at Fort Sumter, then the North counterattacked. So, the Civil War doesn't really answer the question. I suppose California, Texas, or many other states could survive on their own, but the real question is, would they be better off ? Having to form their own military, develop trade and political relationships with the 200 plus countries on the planet, and erect customs booths and develop import/export laws dealing with the remainder of the US would not be cheap. The "polarization" you speak of is more of a rich vs. poor/Republican vs. Democrat nature than a regional difference. California, for example, has had many poor Democrats as well as many rich Republicans (Ronald Reagan and Arnold Schwarzenegger, for example). So, California splitting off from the rest of the US wouldn't help much unless they evicted either the rich or poor to make it more homogeneous. StuRat 19:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

When I studied the Hawaiian sovereignty movement, I found that after the U.S. Civil War, Congress made it illegal for a state to secede - which is why, even if every single person in Hawaii voted to secede, they couldn't do it. --Kainaw ^(talk) 19:28, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

that was what I wanted to know. So is this an amendment to the constitution, or just some law? This would mean that if some state (let's forget the "polarization" and speak hypothetically) wanted to leave, they could not unless they won a majority in the Congress? Does that also mean that if the Congress wanted to get rid of a state, and (just hypothetically, right) expelled it, that state could do nothing about it? It occurs to me that Montenegro gained independence from Serbia just by popular vote in Montenegro, the Serbs didn't get a say. Are you saying that in the US, the population would get no say at all, neither that of the leaving state nor that of the remaining ones, and that a simple Congress majority vote would be final and binding? dab (ᛏ) 19:33, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

See Texas v. White. The Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional for a state to secede once and for all in that ruling. --Kainaw ^(talk) 19:41, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

That ruling just says consent of the states is needed, which I take to mean Congress. Of course, both parties would have to come to an agreement about secession, such as what to do with US property currently located in the state (nuclear weapons being perhaps the trickiest part). I suspect that if everyone in a state voted to secede, there would be no problem in getting Congress to let them go. If nothing else, the state's residents could just stop paying federal income taxes. StuRat 19:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

No, the ruling says that under the Articles of Confederation, union was perpetual and the current constitution merely makes that more perfect. The quote is: "The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration, or revocation, except through revolution, or through consent of the States." What consents of the states might mean is debatable but clearly if the Confederates didn't have it, then it cannot be as simple as one state saying so. Rmhermen 20:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

No, no SINGLE state can, but the majority of states could approve the secession of one state. There is no process set up for this as yet, but if a state voted to secede then Congress could set up a process to get the majority of the states approvals (after all the separation issues, like possession of nuclear weapons, were ironed out). StuRat 20:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Also Congress is not as powerful as you seem to imply. They cannot even change the Constitution themselves. Rmhermen 20:05, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, if a secession did occur, I picture it being by default. That is, if a state chose to leave, the US would not be willing to go to war over it, so that would be that. Whether it was "technically illegal" wouldn't really matter. StuRat 20:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Also note that no US state has anywhere near a majority who would vote to secede, including Hawaii. Some US possessions, like Puerto Rico, are closer, but still not there. StuRat 20:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

On Congress' power - the primary purpose of Congress is to change the Constitution by ammending it. The President (executive) can feebly veto an ammendment, big deal. The Supreme Court is the only one who can say "no" and strike down an ammendment as being unconstitutional. Yes, I watched Schoolhouse Rocks as a kid. --Kainaw ^(talk) 20:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the president can't veto proposed constitutional amendments -- it's strictly up to Congress and state legislatures... AnonMoos 01:57, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

No, the primary purpose of Congress is to pass ordinary laws (and, of course, to get women for Democrats and bribes for Republicans). Constitutional Amendments are meant to be, and have been, somewhat rare. StuRat 20:20, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I wish that certain states would figure that out. Alabama, for instance, has over 770 constitutional amendments in the past 105 years, including things like authorising the legislature to promote the catfish industry (#492). In the constitution! Bah. — Lomn Talk 22:31, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

California had that problem several years ago, and they resolved it by rewriting the Constitution and getting popular approval for the rewrite, incorporating many of the amendments into regular provisions of the Constitution, streamlining it considerably. User:Zoe|^(talk) 20:33, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

First, with regards to the feasibilty of secession, the people of a giant state like California would have no problem holding their own. "Having to form their own military, develop trade and political relationships with the 200 plus countries on the planet, and erect customs booths and develop import/export laws dealing with the remainder of the US" would simply not be an issue. In fact, to pick a nation from each continent, the population and economy of California is greater than that of Canada, Argentina, Greece, South Africa, Saudi Arabia (yes, even with its oil its economy still pales in comparison to California) and Australia. In fact, should it seceed, it would be an obvious candidate to be the ninth nation in the newly renamed "G-9".

But one need not look at a giant state like California. Even an average sized state with an average sized poplulation such as Pennsylvania or Michigan would still find itself among the richest nations on the planet, and would certainly be able to hold its own on the international scene.

Finally, with regards to the "legality" of secession, this may dissappoint many, but to the extent that the Constitution may forbid secession, the Constitution is irrelevant. To the extent that the Civil War may provide a precedent forbidding secession, it too is irrelevant. We no longer live in the 18th or 19th centuries, but the 21st, and sensibilities are simply different today.

Should a state like California hold a referendum on secession, for example, and should the people of California vote overwhelmingly to separate from the United States, and should the Government of California proceed on its course to sever all legal ties with the US, while maintaining a good faith approach to settling such sensitive issues as nuclear weaponry, etc...It is simply inconceivable that the Government of the United States would actually, in this day and age, use its military might and send troops into California, killing many Californian and US citizens in the process, to prevent the people of California from pursuing their democratic will to separate from the United States.

Fortunately, however, this is a pure intellectual, hypothetical debate, as there is no indication that any state is actually considering secession. Loomis51 01:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with most of what you said. However, I never said it would be impossible for a state to form all the institutions needed to govern itself independently, just that the cost of doing so would likely outweigh any benefit. For comparison, the European Union has many countries which, can, and have, act independently. However, by forming the EU they hope to operate more efficiently than they could as individual nations. In the case of an independent California, for example, if a trade embargo was placed on it by the remainder of the US (say for refusing to surrender it's nukes), then it would be in deep trouble. StuRat 14:17, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

As a side note, I think that is the first time I have heard EU and efficiency in the same sentence. It may have been one of the intentions to have an efficient system, but they haven't managed to pull it off. That is not to detract from the other benefits of being a member of the EU, but just to point out that efficiency isn't one of them. Road Wizard 10:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

What other benefits are there ? I suspect that these same benefits would also apply to California remaining a US state. StuRat 04:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed Stu, that's why I stuck in the bit about "maintaining a good faith approach to settling such sensitive issues as nuclear weaponry etc...". Nukes would definitely be something HUGE to consider. I think we're pretty much in agreement on this one. Loomis51 10:22, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

culturally important sports

What would be a good criteria to determine what is the biggest or most culturally important sport of a given country? YOu can't go with "official" sport, because for example, for Canada the answer should be ice hockey, but the official sport is lacrosse. For Brazil the answer is clearly football (soccer). How could you analyze it for USA? Is American football bigger, or baseball, or basketball, for example?--Sonjaaa 18:41, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I would say baseball is the most culturally important US sport for historical reasons. It's older than American football or basketball, and has deeper cultural roots, such as songs ("Take me out to the all park"), sayings ("As American as baseball, apple pie, and Chevrolet"), and the very popular baseball metaphor for sex. While technically based on earlier English games, like rounders, a mythology has grown up around it's supposed invention by Abner Doubleday, as well. StuRat 19:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) In the U.S. - nationwide - football is the most viewed sport. In other words, more people in the U.S. spend more time watching football than any other sport. But, that is a huge overview. In the southeast, Nascar claims to have more viewers. A client of mine told me that a survey in Vibe found that more black men watch basketball than football. When it comes down to it, football is a very television-friendly sport, so it is viewed more. It really doesn't have anything to do with the sport itself. --Kainaw ^(talk) 19:31, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I could see you doing it a lot of different ways. Attendance at sporting events, television ratings, $ paid to the athletes, etc. Any of those would be good arguments supporting your view that one is bigger or more culturally significant than another. Nowimnthing 19:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Try Sports league attendances to start out with. Nowimnthing 19:35, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Even attendance has problems, though -- how do you reconcile baseball's 160-game season with football's 16-game season? How do you reconcile football stadiums being about double the seating capacity of baseball stadiums (about 70k to about 35k)? Of course, this also poses the question of whether such factors should be reconciled.

Ultimately, I find that the question ends up being a good topic for discussion and debate but a lousy one for a definitive answer. — Lomn Talk 22:35, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree. "Cultural importance" is hard to determine. I think you're best off looking at something objective, like this survey, which asked respondents to name their favorite sport. According to most surveys I have seen, football, especially the NFL, ranks number one by far. Interestingly enough, African-American adults were the most likely to choose the NFL, probably contradicting the Vibe survey.

ESPN.COM recently had one of those "SportsNation" surveys asking what users' favorite pro sport was. In all 50 states, it was NFL number one and MLB number two with the NBA, NHL and NASCAR below. -- Mwalcoff 00:20, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I would say that, baseball has had more of an influence on American culture throughout the years. However, I would say that currently football is "gaining ground" as far as influencing the culture.

Name meaning

Anyone know the meaning and orgin of the name baljit. I believe it may be related to indian culture.--206.251.4.216 22:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

You might do better on the language desk, but I'm sure it's Hindi, derived from the Sanskrit bala (pure) + ajita (unconquered). Hindi typically drops the -a endings. --Shantavira 09:07, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

June 10

Anarchy (?) Sign

What does this guy mean?

File:Temporary.jpeg

Does it mean anarchy?

And what are its roots (i.e. where does it come from)?

I have been told it comes from some kind a symbol that witches used in a certain curse. Do we have an article on it? Thanks. schyler 00:28, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I actually don't have the answer for your particular question, but, I must inform you, due to your use of the word "tolled" in this particular context, you are hereby disqualified from claiming English to be your native language. Loomis51 01:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe he was dictating. 82.131.186.145 14:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry. Too many Ls. Thanks for telling me. Oh, and also, you don't have to be such an ASSHOLE about it. Its a simple mistake. By the way, you should have put a ":" between "must inform you" and "due to" rather than a "," and I think that's a lot worse than a typing error. Oh well.

I would still like someone to tell me the answer to my original question though. Thanks. schyler 01:53, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Think about it...is it just the extra L that's the problem or is there something else?

(You're right though, it's very uncharacteristic of me to act like an asshole and correct other people's spelling. I'm a bigger person than that. I just couldn't resist this time. It's your right to spell as you wish, and I shouldn't have been so harsh. My apologies.) Loomis51 02:07, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, I don't think it was the correction of the spelling itself that was the problem, it was the way in which you did it. But I assume you were having a bad day. Skittle 20:53, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• See Anarchist symbolism. --Metropolitan90 02:58, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

To answer the original question, the A over the O is the symbol of anarchy and represents Anarchy superseding Order or "Anarchy is Order". See here. Grutness...wha? 03:04, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Then what sign may I be thinking of that witches used? schyler 13:09, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

The pentagram is a similar shape, and its article mentions that it is used as a symbol of faith by wiccans. --Cadaeib (talk) 13:45, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

The pentagram, a similar symbol

Thak you very much. That's exactly what I was thinking of. schyler 17:33, 10 June 2006 (UTC) I'm sure I remember the band "Crass" using this symbol for the "A" in their name and it did represent anarchy.Ah,the good old days of punk!(hotclaws**== 01:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC))

What is the pantone number for Wales Flag?

Wales's Flag contains a red dragon and a green land. What is the exact pantone number for that red and green color? - unsigned

Flags of the World doesn't note any pantone numbers. Possibly that's because Wales, unlike Scotland or the U.K., has no legislature interested in specifying them? FWIW, Wikipedia's Image:Flag_of_Wales_2.svg has a red that's 100/0/0 RGB and a green that's 0/47.5/0 RGB. You might also be interested in this page on pantone/RGB in flag depictions. - Nunh-huh 02:36, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

If you like, I'll ask the question on the FOTW mailing list (which i'm a member of) -someone there might know, though I suspect it's not actually specified. The red of Y ddraig goch will be 186, the same as that for the Union Flag (the Union Jack). I must admit I more normally think of them in terms of CMYK values, and the welsh flag's green is very close to C-80%, M-40%, Y-100%, K-0%. Grutness...wha? 03:04, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I asked, I got a reply. "The official recommendations (which will be appearing in the new Edition of BR20) are for red PMS 186, and green PMS 354." Grutness...wha? 01:23, 11 June 2006 (UTC) (and thanks to Chris Southworth).

New category suggested in topic of Jesus Christ of Nazareth: Claims of Jesus

Recommend that we add claims of Jesus Christ, including: Jesus claimed to be the only way to God: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.” (The Holy Bible, John 14:6, New American Standard Version) DKS 06:02, 10 June 2006 (UTC)DKS 6/9/06

• Who is stopping you? If you have the relevant facts, then just start the article. Others will help you out.I edited your statements.Patchouli 09:46, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• Who will be stopping him is CFD, I imagine. New categories pertaining to Jesus will generate enormous dissent, unless the terms are exceptionally NPOV. "Claims" will strike many, I think, as implying "but not true" or "lies" or "boasts." Also, I'm not sure what such a category would include. We don't have articles on "I am the way" or "the meek shall inherit the earth." We have links to Sermon on the mount and Wedding at Canaan. Geogre 11:55, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• There is already a section about what Jesus said on Wikiquote. I am not sure what a Category here would provide that a link to that page couldn't. Road Wizard 12:03, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Just curious, why is the word "Christ" crossed out twice in this question? Christ being derived from the Greek for "Messiah", it would seem that the questioner (if it is indeed the questioner who did the crossing out) is trying to make some gratuitous and innapropriate statement that Jesus was not the Messiah that Christians believe he is. If the crossing out was made by a third party, it's all the more innapropriate to edit someone else's question and cross out the word "Christ".

Just to make my point clearer, I am not a Christian and I do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. However I have enough respect for people of the Christian faith that I would never write "Christ" and then cross it out, or even worse, cross someone else's question concerning "Jesus Christ". I would simply and politely refer to the man as Jesus, and leave it at that. Many of us may disagree with who and what Jesus was, but to cross out the "Christ" aspect is simply inconsiderate of others' beliefs. Loomis51 19:47, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

The crossing out was by Patchouli in this edit. Road Wizard 19:53, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Apparently this is true. How dare you, Patchouli, edit another's question in such a crass manner? As mentioned, personally, I don't believe Jesus was the Christ, but for those who believe Jesus was in fact Christ, it is their right, their "freedom of thought" as you put it on your userpage, and their writing should remain untouched. Believing that Jesus was Christ is in no way offensive to non-Christians. It's simply a belief. Editing their question is simply unacceptable and extremely rude. Please reconsider and reverse your edits. Loomis51 22:46, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• I suggest that until such time as Patchouli decides to reply, you may wish to assume good faith. The editor may not have intended an insult but could have been attempting to point out a perceived conflict with a naming convention. Road Wizard 23:03, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• I hadn't investigated, and I assumed that the crossing out was a crass insult as well. As it was by a 3rd party, it is even worse. Assuming good faith is good, but ignoring bad acts isn't. Let's try to respect each other. I am religious and a Christian, but I wouldn't be going about and crossing out "Buddha" and replacing it with "Siddhartha." If it were some expression of an opinion on naming convention, it would be fairly boorish to insert that opinion into a reference desk question. Geogre 03:42, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • OK, I think we should draw a line under this issue and end this discussion here. This is hardly the appropriate forum to discuss the behaviour of an individual editor. To sum up the position, an editor has altered a question by another editor, which has been interpreted by some to be an insult; it has also been pointed out that the insult may not have been intentional, but instead a poorly explained action carried out in good faith. The correct action now, is for one person to point this out - in a polite manner - to the editor in question on their individual talk page. I would ask that other editors refrain from adding to this discussion here and also avoid any further comment on any resulting conversation at the user's talk page unless you have something meaningful to add. Thank you. Road Wizard 07:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

---

I crossed the word Christ and didn't hide that by I inserting I edited your statements above. First, the original question seemed as if that person was a skeptic. Second, I do believe in freedom of thought; however, this is project page; as such, being a little artful shouldn't offend anyone except those people can't wait to get offended in order to justify vituperation.

Next, I address the issue of opinion. That, Jesus was Jesus of Nazareth is a fact. On the other hand, that he was Christ is an opinion of Christians.

On a tangential issue, I deem it reasonable to speculate that Jesus of Nazareth had a secret agreement with Biblical authors to remain celibate and sacrifice his life and that they would in turn him into a literal God. What is the big deal? Isaac Newton who was a bachelor for 85 years and made tangible accomplishments that changed the course of humanity doesn't get divine titles. Yet a guy who was pulling people's legs as a living is now deified.

A good sign of maturity is seen in the following statement: "Whenever anyone has offended me, I try to raise my soul so high that the offense cannot reach it."Patchouli 18:38, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• I think that statement of yours is going to draw a lot of attention. It would probably be more appropriate for other editors to respond on your talk page rather than clutter this page further. Road Wizard 19:03, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the strikethroughs. --LarryMac 16:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Road Wizard, I appreciate your conscientious attitude and your many attempts to break up any possible "fight" between editors and to let "cool heads prevail." That's indeed a laudable goal. But I'm in no mood to "fight", and neither, I imagine, would be the particular editor in question. Indeed, there's little I enjoy more than "robust intellectual debate" (a phrase I borrowed from my good friend Jack). If it concerns you so terribly, I'll simply end it here and not contribute another word to this discussion. But on the other hand, we're Wikipedians, we're civil, and there might be a point that Patchouli would like to make that I would enjoy nothing more than to debate. In any case, this time, I'll respect your advice and end the debate here. I just hope that when next time comes around, the rhetoric will be lighter, the intellectual "goodwill" clearer, and a nice, clean, "robust intellectual debate" can be had. Until then, I still thank you for your efforts at doing your best to keep things civil here at Wiki. You have my full appreciation. Loomis51 23:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

If you wish to have an intellectual debate about the issue, I am not tyring to stop you. I am just pointing out this isn't the place for it. As the guidance says at the top of the page "If further debate regarding a particular answer is needed, please move the discussion to the appropriate talk page." Therefore, you can go ahead with the debate, but keep it to the individual talk pages. Road Wizard 23:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Help for linking spanish articles about feudalism

I dont talk very well English, and I try to link various articles or categorys about feudalism with technical names derived from old Castilian language

Please, somelse can help me how to link:

• The category Categoría:Derecho feudal thats means Feudal Right
• The article Malos usos señoriales thats can be translate as "Feudal abuses" or perhaps "Feudal bad customs" (I dont know but is related to Peasants' Revolt and Popular revolt in late medieval Europe causes)

Another question, without relation is about the use of a traditional tool in agriculture, in spanish is named Trillo, in English can be translated as Threshing-board or Threshing-sledge. Is it correct?

Thanks--Locutus Borg File:Logo-Borg.gif, Talk to me 10:01, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

"Resistance is fuedal." :-) StuRat 14:45, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

XD XD XD --Locutus Borg File:Logo-Borg.gif, Talk to me 05:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Fuedal? Perhaps Feudal? Loomis51 22:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

South Atlantic SAA Incident May/June 1982

I remembered reading somewhere about how a South African Airways airliner was nearly shot down by mistake by a British warship in 1982 over the South Atlantic while the plane was en-route from South Africa to somewhere in South America. The warship was on its way to the Falklands. The article said something about mistaking it with an Argentine Boeing 707 that was supposed to be shadowing the Task Force. I can’t find anything on the internet about this incident. Can anyone on this esteemed panel shed light on this incident?--Jcw69 10:46, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Haircut name?

What is the haircut worn by and called? 83.252.72.10 11:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at Hairstyle and take your pick. --hydnjo talk 12:25, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

The New York Times calls Reagan's do a "40s-style pompadour." - Nunh-huh 17:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• I want to know the name of Steve Ballmer's haircut. Isn't he going out of his way and bending over backwards to prove that he doesn't care about his looks while amassing billions of dollars. Hee-hawPatchouli 13:49, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• That doesn't appear to be a haircut, but rather male-pattern baldness. I may detect a slight comb over, however, if that's what you're referring to. Personally, I think bald looks better than whatever Donald Trump has living on his head. StuRat 14:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• Donald Trump has got actual hair on top of his head. He pulled the hair on top of his hair to show its realness in a 2005 interview with Newsweek.Patchouli 17:57, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• These guys should use a minuscule portion of their assets to implant hair on their heads instead to deciding to take their money to their graves.Patchouli 15:33, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• "Liar, liar, your hair's on fire!" --Halcatalyst 17:34, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

BE(Mech) pass from S S Govt Engineering college

Question moved from Help Desk. Road Wizard 12:19, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I would like to know whether 1990 pass out BE(Mech) from S S Govt Engineering College,Bhavnagar,Gujarat is eligible for AMIE membership and Chartered Engineership.

Thanks S K Joshi

You might find information you need in the AMIE article. I see that there is a link to the organization there; you will probably need to ask them. --Halcatalyst 17:24, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia Policy on Philosophy of Science topics

First my background - I have a Masters degree in philosophy, with emphases on philosophy of science, ancient philosophy, and the history of ideas. I have been following a number of articles on topics that are traditionally tagged as pseudoscience in nature or discussion of philosophy or sociology of science such as Pathological skepticism and a more controversial article misnamed Objective validity of astrology. Much material that describes the viewpoints of people who hold these views. In the first topic, information on the views of the likes of well-known philosophers of science such as Paul Feyerabend and Thomas Kuhn is being deleted due to the claims that philosophers who hold these views are dubious (which seems to mean to some editors, they are not lab scientists publishing in Nature). In the second article, the topic is up for deletion because it references studies produced inside the astrological community - it reflects the beliefs of some astrologers that there may be a scientific basis to astrology. This article is being voted on for deletion by editors who think this information is not scientific so not appropriate for wikipedia. I think the article is valuable by showing attempts to prove or disprove with statistical studies - it reflects the state of affairs on a very popular topic, astrology. How can an encyclopedia be a forum for any anonymous person of any educational background to decide upon scientific validity. Shouldn't an encyclopedia be a place to survey writing and thoughts in a field? Not prove or disprove? Should 'just the facts' apply to editors who are believers as well as skeptics?

It seems that discussion of philosophy of science and information about people who believe in pseudoscientific (a loaded word itself, says some philosophers of science) is considered inappropriate for wikipedia. Topics that are in the domain of the humanities are being treated as though they are in the domain of natural sciences.

A crude uninformed censorship seems to have much support here. Can someone from humanities weigh in here, or does scientism hold the weight on wiki?

Very concerned,

Zeusnoos 13:58, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I only skimmed this comment but I second the sentiment. Glance through the page history and the comment history of Nostradamus and you'll see what I mean. Basically, the issue is that wikipedia editors with scientific training seem to think that "neutral point if view" means that objective facts take precendence over popular belief. For example, if there's an extensive literature on the occurrance of impossible things, communities discussing this, etc, the article subject Society for the Study of Contemporary Occurances of Impossible Things (SSCOIT) should contain, in the minds of these editors, essentially the single sentence "By definition impossible things cannot happen. For occurances of unlikely things, see Unlikely Occurances. For occurances of things previously thought impossible, see Occurances Previously Thought Impossible. The rest of this article focuses on the beliefs and writings of Society for the Study of Contemporary Occurances of Impossible Things (SSCOIT)." However, in fact, the rest of the article will contain a vitriolic "debunking" of SSCOIT's views. Why? Because to a scientist the "neutral" point of view is to share the fact that impossible things by definition can't and don't happen, that if they do they must not have been impossible, and if anyone writes otherwise the neutral point of view is to debunk their writings. This is just misinformation on the part of the editors: the neutral point of view is to share major parties views on (at least among serious parties) more or less an equal-opportunity basis. Thus for any article that reports views no serious scientist holds or even holds worthy of refutation (since these views do not get published in serious journals), a single prominent sentence making the view of scientists clear should suffice. It should be obvious that views that have no scholarly proponents do not generate much scholarly literature, except perhaps anthropological. In these cases the article is not a science article, but an anthropological/sociological one (despite claims by the parties quoted that their subject belongs to science.) 82.131.186.145 14:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me that what is needed is to keep valid science isolated from psuedoscience, much as teaching Intelligent Design is fine when it's presented as what it is, an attempt by religion to make their preexisting beliefs seem scientific, but it's not fine when presented as if it's a valid scientific theory with a level of acceptance by the scientific community on par with the Theory of Evolution. I would be happy with titling psuedoscience articles as such, say Intelligent Design (psuedoscience), and then including a paragraph in the article on why it is so classified. StuRat 14:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

In the case of astrology, some proponents suggest or assert that it is a science, while others do not but think it more as a religion. The problem then is whether or not the viewpoints and studies of those who think it can be validated by science (along with criticism of these studies) should be presented at all on WP. Some editors think the material, which reflects how astrology as a popular culture phenomenon is thought, should be removed altogether. Zeusnoos 15:44, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

The first case looks to me like pretty bad case of either someone not knowing what NPOV really means, or not knowing much about the philosophy of science and who counts as a notable voice. I think if the additions were rewritten as prose, though, and the views were more directly attributed, it would be less of an issue. Having it be a list with a list of references at the bottom is easy to see as possibly being OR and not being well-attributed to whose views they are. --Fastfission 19:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

These articles have generated RFC's in the past (Request for Comment, or WP:RFC), and I wouldn't be surprised that they both need new ones. The good thing about Wikipedia is that there are so many editors that good information will be offered. The bad thing is that zealots will overwhelm the staid and reliable sources on "secret history" and occult topics. Wikipedia is a target of special interests, but most of the targeted articles have such avid watchers among the ranks of admins that the NPOV version prevails. In the case of pseudo-science and fringe subjects, there aren't many watchers with access to the protection buttons or rollback, I suspect. Get an RFC started, and then get an active admin to watchlist. The Bigfoot article, for example, was absolutely clobbered by believers a while back, and one in particular. We need more sane eyes on these articles. (Not me, I'm afraid: I'm not very good at conflict and whomping on zealots. I am an admin, but I'm pretty laid back.) Geogre 02:17, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

World Cup stadium

I've heard rumours that Albert Speer jr. (or his architecture firm) has built one of the stadiums for the World Cup 2006. Could someone confirm or deny this?

• This source say the AS&P firm built the Munich stadium. Road Wizard 14:19, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
  • The source I just quoted may not be reliable. The article on Munich's Allianz Arena names Herzog & de Meuron as the architects. Road Wizard 14:50, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
    • [1] says AS&P did "site analysis, test designs, negotiations, coordination". So it looks like they were subcontractors, perhaps, or a failed bid? Shimgray | talk | 16:27, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

You're obviously referring to the Olympic Stadium (Berlin), which is still the same it was in 1936. The article should have all the answers for you. --Dr. Zarkov 21:45, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure that is correct? I thought it was Albert Speer Sr. that was involved in the Berlin Stadium's original construction. Or do you have some information that says Albert Speer jr. was involved in some of the redevelopment work? Road Wizard 23:45, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

TV - longest running show?

What is the longest running show - à la Young and the Restless and The Simpsons - on TV? Jack Daw 15:08, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I think there will be quite a few shows that claim that title (e.g. longest running show by number of episodes, longest running show by time from first episode to last). Do you want to limit your question to a particular country, or are you interested in the world wide position? The Sky at Night from the UK is claimed to be the "longest running show with the same presenter". Road Wizard 15:17, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

In the U.S., Gunsmoke (20 years) is often mentioned as the longest running drama. If you count weekly news shows, Meet the Press has been on forever -- I think the first episode carried live footage of the birth of Christ. --Kevin Myers | (complaint dept.) 17:09, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Last of the Summer Wine is the longest running comedy series in the world, at 23 years, although shows like The Simpsons have more episodes (350+ to LotSW's 240). smurrayinchester^{(User), (Talk)} 17:24, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking more along the lines of programs like Friends, or Sex and the City, Days of our Lives, Simpsons, etc. There's gotta be a common name for "fiction" tv-shows :D Anyway, the longest running I've stumbled upon so far is actually The young and the restless, premiering in 1973. Jack Daw 17:52, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• If you're including soap operas, then Guiding Light is the longest running one on television, having a continuous television run since 1952. And it had started on radio in 1937. --Metropolitan90 18:10, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
  • In the UK, the longest running by a country mile is Coronation Street. Started in about 1961, still going. Grutness...wha? 01:25, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
    • It had a hiatus, but from first to last episode, I think Doctor Who ran longer. - Mgm|^(talk) 08:51, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Coro Street apparentlystarted in October 1960 - Dr. Who started in November 1963 (same day as JFK died, IIRC). Grutness...wha? 06:03, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
        • Close. JFK died on 22 Nov. Dr Who started on 23 Nov. JackofOz 06:09, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

ACTUALLY (and this is aimed mainly at Jack, to bug the hell out of him lol), JFK was assassinated at 6:30pm GMT, November 22, 1963, while Dr. Who debuted at 5:15PM GMT, November 23, 1963. MEANING, that for those living in Omsk, USSR, at the time, (Omsk being located in the GMT+6 time zone), JFK was assassinated at 12:30am November 23, 1963, while Dr. Who debuted at 11:15pm, November 23, 1963. Therefore, if you were living in Omsk, (not that you would have received Dr. Who on TV), JFK's assassination and Dr. Who started on the same day. Is there a barnstar for being the most nitpicking, pain-in-the-ass editor on Wikipedia? (I'm beginning to realize I've been spending WAAAAAY too much time here)! Loomis51 22:52, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Loomis, mate, you win that barnstar hands down. (lol). OK, fair enough. As long as you warned your audience that you were using "day" in that general sense of any 24-hour period, rather than the more usual and specific sense of the 24-hour period midnight-to-midnight, you could get away with such a claim. In that sense only, Grutness and you are both quite right, these events did occur "on the same day". I'm not sure that's what Grutness had in mind, because he didn't qualify his statement in that way - but he might have. However, the date of an event is determined by reference to the time at which it occurred, at the place in which it occurred. What date it might have been somewhere else (eg. Omsk) at that moment in time is irrelevant. These events definitely happened on different dates in the calendar.  :--) JackofOz 09:43, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course you're right, Jack. No need to go into the details. Dr. Who, by all reasonable accounts did not debut on the same day as JFK's death, but the next day. Just having a bit of fun there. I hope I wasn't breaking yet another Wiki rule I'm not aware of, as I seem to be stumbling upon all sorts of new Wiki rules that I've seem to be breaking on almost a daily basis. Let's see: don't be a nitpicking pain-in-the-ass. Phew, it's still red. But knowing the people here, I'm willing to bet that soon enough it will be blue! Take care, Jack. Loomis51 22:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Inge Bandekow

Hi. I have been reading about Hitler and his peers on Wiki, but one person I am curious about, doesn't even have a red-link on her name. I would love it if someone would write a page on "Inge Bandekow" who married Harald Quandt, the surviving son of the Goebbels family. Thanks!! --71.8.83.75 16:48, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Harald Quandt was a step-son, not a son, of Joseph Goebbels. His wife Inge and their children are mentioned in his article. now she has a red link; if anyone knows enough, they'll write it. - Nunh-huh 16:58, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

This is not the place to ask for new articles. You can search for "Inge Bandekow" and a screen will come up inviting you to strart the new article. If you don't want to, you will find an opportunity there to request the article. That's how it's done. :-) --Halcatalyst 17:10, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's a highly complex mechanism for requesting articles, involving navigting through a series of pages, and I'm not terribly certain that many requested pages are ever written. If the questioner can figure out which of the hundreds of subpages to request it on, I suppose asking there might slightly increase the chances of having an article on the subject... :) The Reference Desk is certainly the place to ask for information; we just don'tt seem to have enough to offer to make an article out of. - Nunh-huh 17:24, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I have to admit I never tried to request an article using that method. Are there better ways? --Halcatalyst 19:59, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd love to hear if anyone had had any recent requests actually honored from those pages. They are so huge I think any requests are pretty much lost. I think making red links to point to the requested subject, or asking for information here, or on the talk page of related articles, is probably a more efficient way. Red links will show up in Wikipedia:Most wanted articles if there are enough of them<G>. - Nunh-huh 20:10, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

To expand Nunh-huh's point, the red links will be seen by those with an interest in the subject. Editors are much more likely to write a red linked article on a related subject than someone with no interest churning through a very long list. They are also more likely to have access to the source material. Road Wizard 01:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I have attempted to solve the "Requested Articles" boondoggle. I created a category called Red links. If you create a list of redlinks in your user talk space and apply that tag, the collection will show up in the category. I think that makes things easier to find by people who like to research and write. Additionally, one can name the page in such a way as to indicate the subject, so then folks with interests in the area can find it. I keep meaning to announce this somewhere where people will actually see it, but that brings up yet another different longtime problem. Geogre 13:13, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

What tag? I have tried to look for a category called "Red links", but I can't find it. Can you provide a link? Thanks. Road Wizard 13:21, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

My apologies. The proper link is Category:Red list. A hazard of typing early in the day is faulty memory. I still think it's a good idea. Geogre 15:50, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I can not find any other way on Wiki to thank you guys!!! :) :) Thanks for your patience, and helping me suggest/create a red link. You are all awesome. --71.8.83.75 04:00, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Where can I find this video?

Does anyone know where I could find a video of yesterday's press conference between President George W. Bush and Prime Minster Rasmussen of Denmark? --Shadarian 17:03, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• Currently, http://www.whitehouse.gov/ has the transcript and pictures. Based on my experience, the webcast usually shows up thereon in less than 24 hours just the al-Zarqawi speech.Patchouli 20:58, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

metal and big beat genre

there is a genre (or a sub-genre) of metal that is metal with big beat???

metal recorder

the previous question reminded me that I posted this about a week ago, no real answer (someone thought I might have a tin whistle). I wouldn't like to just change the article, which is well-referenced, and the fact I have a metal recorder isn't much of a reference. I'd like to find a reference on the internet to other metal recorders so that, citing them, I can change the article (Recorder). Thank you. 87.97.8.244 18:28, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

How interesting. What kind of metal is it made of? Is it a rolled tube, as in tin whistles, or moulded like a flute? Is the mouthpiece metal? I've never heard of such a thing, and I would normally imagine the sound quality to be rather poor, but I'd love to hear more. I'll have a look, but it sounds like you've already done most of what I would do to look. Skittle 20:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, from Saunders Recorders. KOBLICZEK There have been also brilliant recorders for buskers and folk groups. The "Silberton" also sold as "Gruber System" is of all heavily silver plated brass, descant, and sopranino, while the treble has a wooden body and keys for F/F#. These instruments have a wide parallel bore and something of the sound of a flute. The unusual moveable windway enables one to vary the voicing and produce husky "ethnic" effects, which "mic up" well. I am not able to obtain these to order. The best source these days is probably through the internet. Key your rquirements into Google and see what you can find. The "Concerto" had a wide bore and thin wall giving it a robust but not coarse tone well liked by folk musicians... Silberton: Cylindrical Metal Recorders, occasionally available second-hand

Also, on the same site "HOPF: These are, unfortunately, no longer available. The renaissance models are available from Kobliczek. Secondhand "Meister" trebles are well worth considering, they have an unusally small stretch for the right hand. See Kobliczek for the metal recorders."

Hope this helps. Skittle 20:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Vauxhall Advert song

What is the name of the song from the new Vauxhall advert shown in the UK? ITs the one with the car 'surfing' or something through the water. Its kinda.. folky or something. Dunno but its kinda catchy. Thanks.

• I think this source gives the answer. They say it is a song by Lonnie Donegan called Rock Island Line. Road Wizard 01:29, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Sci-fi short story, self-monitoring machine

I'm looking for a sci-fi short story, which I remember being mentioned somewhere on WP. The story was based around the concept of a machine with the sole purpose of monitoring its own actions: it was like a stream of conciousness for the machine. Something like "Switched on. Recorded being switched on. Made a record of recording having been switched on" etc. Or something like that. I also think the machine/story had a name derived from Latin/Greek, like auto-something. Thanks! Sum0 21:07, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't it just go on recording the recordings of having been switched on? What could possibly be the use of such a thing? --Username132 (talk) 14:50, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

June 11

Person who said this one thing and a term

quote

I remember reading this quote one one time and it goes something to the tune of:

"Isn't it amazing how music can bring out our deepest emotions: hapiness, sadness, fear, anger, without even saying a word?"

I just can't remember who it was. I am almost positive it was a woman, but it could also be a man. I don't know. Does anybody recognize this?

term

I was playing a piece of music and it just made me feel sad (hence the quote) and I wanted to play it like I was sad, and expressing my feelings with it. What is this called? I remember doing something like this in theatre(er?) that was called something like emotional recall where you think of something sad and put that into the part your doing. But what is it applied to my situation? Yhanks. schyler 00:57, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

What Said said about Indo-European

Edward Said said something some years ago about the unreality (or something) of the idea of the Indo-European, or Indo-Aryan, or Aryan, language group. At least, so say a lot of people. It seems he allegedly said something about not trusting a German who uses the words "Aryan" and "Semitic" in the same sentence.

A great deal of Googling of what seemed to be promising combinations gave me an exposure to a colossal load of offensive garbage by lovers and haters of ES, but nothing useful. (Though there was actually one note by some heretic who said he'd like to see the actual passage before commenting on it.)

Please, can anyone point me to the actual passage in context?

I don't know what Said said (nor do I particularly care that much, since he was not a linguist, and not particularly qualified to comment on technical linguistic matters) -- but the reality of the Indo-European and Semitic language groups is established beyond question in scientific linguistics. (However, the idea of Indo-European and Semitic "races"[sic] is of course nonsense.) The German word for "Indo-European" is "Indogermanisch". In linguistic terminology, the word Indo-Aryan actually means the group which encompasses Indian languages (those related to Sanskrit) and Iranian languages. (I have no idea what "Indo-Aryan" means to Edward Said and racists, nor do I want to know.) AnonMoos 15:57, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Must say, I agree with every word except as to caring about it. Not that I'd tell anyone else whether to care; but I'm curious, and not just idly, whether such a major politico-scholastic figure, at least as perceived in the media, came up with something so absolutely stupid -- not ignorant, he wasn't that, but deliberately maliciously racist stupid -- as this appears to be. Sorry, forgot to sign the previous one -- Dandrake 16:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Question about reckoning one's age in China

I read or heard once, somewhere, that it was customary in China to say that a newborn baby is one year old, and to increment the age at the start of the lunar new year (instead of on the person's birthday). Is this true? And if it is true, can anyone help me find a quotable source for it? I've mentioned this point in one of the footnotes of the article United States v. Wong Kim Ark, but I would really like to include a citation if possible. Richwales 05:54, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• I don't know about China, but the custom of incrementing ones age at the start of the year instead of having individual birthdays was used in Japan until at least the last century (I am unsure whether some Japanese still continue this practice). My source for the Japanese usage is an anime called Sakura Wars, which is set in 1920s Tokyo. The explanation of the custom came about in an episode where a character from Europe grew upset that no one was interested in celebrating her birthday. I will keep an eye out for a Chinese source though. Road Wizard 10:00, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

dragonwings the grade school reading book is my source for the same understanding, and concerned chinese in san francisco around the turn of the century earthquake (1902? 1903? 1904? something like that). the protagonist was put in the wrong grade as a result. 82.131.186.141 10:47, 11 June 2006 (UTC).

See East Asian age reckoning. No citation is provided in the article though. --Kusunose 13:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I have now added sources for both Chinese and Japanese systems to the external links section of the page Kusunose mentioned. Road Wizard 14:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Mittal Steel Company vs Arcelor

On what legal basis can Arcelor refuse selling itself to Mittal Steel Company, the highest bidder? Is there even an economic justification, or is it pure Indophobia? deeptrivia (talk) 12:06, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

It´s not pure Indophobia (at least I hope it´s not). It´s a mainly political issue. "They" defend that the whole sector is vital for France and therefore should be in french hands, by extrapolation European. This excuse is also used in America with the harbours. It is the same excuse everywhere. It´s called protectionism and exists in every country of this planet. We like that foreigners invest their money in our country, but as soon some as*hole shouts: "This (whatever) should be in our national hands!" everybody just turns stupid. It is supported by lying politicians because the "dumb masses of voters" will vote on them because of these double-standart measures. And still they say that democracy is always the best answer for everything. It´s plain case of not doing what we preach to everyone. Flamarande 12:31, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, protectionism of French companies and companies involving French interests is a thorny issue at the moment. The French government has been receiving some criticism lately for stalling in the process of liberalising their takeover rules, as part of a wider EU initiative. The accusations stem from the fact that French companies have been taking over firms in other EU countries like the UK since their rules were liberalised, but companies in other countries can't take over French ones. [2] Road Wizard 12:48, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey, it´s not only the frogies! Everybody does it. The French are only a bit more...obvious? Flamarande 12:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I am not saying it is just the French, but as you mentioned the reason for the refusal is because of French interests, I thought I would provide the editor with an example where the French situation is discussed. As the article says, in that example the French can be accused of double standards, but they haven't broken any laws. Road Wizard 13:10, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Indophobia is situated between Indonesia and Montenegro. The ravenous islands grow pure scented flowers of green taxes. Yous should have been there in the summer when tigers and goats perform their rituals of love and the shepherds go cutting boughs to bbq them. --DLL 19:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Lyudmilla Pavlichenko

"The recruiter initally rebuked her, suggested a nurse specialization instead, but after being presented her marksmanship certificate, assigned her to the Red Army's 25th Infantry Division". Ridicolous. In the Red Army (and in the other communist Army) woman were conscripted. Vess

• Where are you quoting from? I can't find an article called Lyudmilla Pavlichenko. Road Wizard 13:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Lyudmila Pavlichenko - The quoter put in two 'l's. I found it by putting a section of the quote into google and in quotes. --Username132 (talk) 14:46, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't see anything in that sentence that suggests she wasn't conscripted. Vess, if you think something needs correcting (and there's plenty that needs correcting) please go right ahead and edit it. If you're uncertain, leave a note on that article's discussion page. --Shantavira 15:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, women were conscripted, but they weren't always allowed to be in combat roles, and that seems to be what the article is going on about. It does sound like folklore, though, and I wouldn't be surprised if it were false, but not because the Soviet armies were actually equal opportunity in conscription. Geogre 15:48, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

"Getting Over" People

When trying to "get over" someone after a relationship, the best advice I can come up with involves focusing on the person's flaws and/or finding someone to replace them. Is there any other/better advice to quicken the process? --Username132 (talk) 14:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Try not to think about them. Think about how much better you are off (presumably). Focus on new opportunities and goals. Overcome new barriers and enjoy life. :) --Proficient 14:39, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• A sexual relationship is not the most important fact in life. Other facts include taxes, insurance, knowledge, security and peace, and more.Patchouli 15:01, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

And try to remain on friendly terms with them. They might appreciate having a friend they can turn to when their next relationship ends.--Shantavira 15:38, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• Practically, the best suggestions I can offer are 1) write a letter stating your complaints, but do not send it (very important), 2) Do what you can to reduce the lost Other to the status of just any other person, as the pain of rejection is comprised both of loss and of insult ('you say that I am less worthy than someone else; I love you, so I value your opinion, so I am, indeed, worthless'), and the sooner the Other becomes "just some person with an opinion," the sooner one element of the pain is removed, 3) Devalue the lost things (affection, sex, intimacy) by reminding yourself that you are no different today from yesterday, that your life may be less rich, but it is not actually impaired. Ultimately, nothing will take the sting away, but I recommend avoiding at all cost regret. Regret will do no good to you, to the beloved, or your peace, and it will cheapen the good by alloying it with pain. Geogre 15:46, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

don't focus on their faults. I think you're trying to get over a man, so this might be unfamiliar to you, but the best way is porn. search until you find a type you find real hot, hotter than your ex at least.

Don't convince yourself they're evil, or you're better than them or put them down, all I can say, is keep on good terms with everyones, spend some time with freinds if you need support, and keep occupied. Also I wouldn't find someone to replace them straight away, because then you get those clingy "on the bounce" relationships where there only in it because they're getting over some one, and nobody likes them.

Alfred Lord Tennyson: 'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. Philc _T^E_C^I 22:36, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Isn't that from Romeo and Juliet? Or was only the sentiment there? Skittle 10:18, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Yeah, just the sentiment. I think I always expect them to say it, but they never do.... Skittle 10:21, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

There is a Buddhist text that recommends thinking of the beloved as a bag of offal. A recent translation expresses it rather forcefully. "You have plenty of filth of your own. Satisfy yourself with that! Glutton for crap! Forget her, that other pouch of filth!" (Bodhicharyavatara 8.53) Hope this helps. --Shantavira 07:12, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I would advise you to put her out of your mind, avoid all contact with her, and more or less pretend she does not exist.

The N.K. Fairbank Company

What is the value of a little catalog put out by the N.K. Fairbank Company in 1899? It deals with soap wrappers. Coolthings 15:18, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Probably very little, but have you tried checking the price of similar articles on eBay? --Shantavira 15:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Older Civilization in Recorded History

Based on recorded history, is the Chinese civilization older than the Mesopotamian and Persian civilizations?Patchouli 16:04, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• Doing a quick Google search of wikipedia for the term "oldest civilization" brings up an interesting discussion at User talk:Mimiian. It appears to be a contentious issue. Road Wizard 16:17, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Probably the Mesopotamians slightly edged all the others when it came to the development of writing. Otherwise, the question might be hard to define in a way tha would admit of an exact answer. AnonMoos 15:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Linus Yale, Sr.

Was he the one that invented the Yale lock?

• I think you just tried to blank your question as you had already found the answer. Unfortunately, you also inadvertently blanked most of the other questions on this page at the same time. Please try to be a little more careful in future. In case you haven't found your answer, please see Pin tumbler lock. Road Wizard 16:49, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Mabogo/Mobogo the killer/bull

Has anyone any information concerning pictures/card games no longer produced un the title of Mabogo/Mobogo???? Thanks

June 12

Music

Is there a word meaning a group of musical works? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.20.208.10 (talk • contribs) 18:10, June 11, 2006 (UTC)

First that comes to mind is a medley, but without further explanation as to what you want, it's kind of hard. schyler 02:02, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean oeuvre? Geogre 03:35, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Or album? Or opera? Grutness...wha? 06:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Suite was what came to mind for me. Then you have more specific terms like song cycle. — Haeleth Talk 20:52, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

.. and not just song cycles (like Schubert's); there is orchestral and more: Smetana, Má Vlast, and of course Herr Wagner's Ring? --Seejyb 21:49, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Is a song cycle a single entity, or a group of entities? Is each song more like the movement of a symphony than a musical work in its own right? What would a group of song cycles be called?
• People also talk about performing or recording the complete "cycle" of Beethoven/Mahler/whoever's symphonies, but this is a misnomer as they are discrete works and were not conceived as forming a larger group (in contrast with Smetana, Schubert/Schumann lieder cycles etc). "Set" might be a better term.
• 10 marks for ingenuity to Grutness for "opera", which is the plural of "opus" (work). "Opera" now mainly refers to a particular genre of music/drama, and in that sense it has become a singular word, which is why it can be pluralised to "operas" without any objection from purists. A composer who referred to "my opera" would not be talking about his/her collected works, but to a specific work, such as La Boheme. JackofOz 02:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I rejected "opera" as requiring an object. It is not the plural of "opus." (Still some Latin left in my head, though most of it leaked out.) Instead, it's Italian. Geogre 03:16, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Our article suggests it started out as the Italian plural of the Latin word opus. JackofOz 03:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Opera is the Latin plural of the Latin word opus. It is not an Italian plural. It is not clear how an Italian plural of the Latin word opus would be formed, as the rules of the Italian grammar operate on the gender, which in Italian is masculine or feminine, while opus is neuter, and further depend on which vowel (-a, -à, -e, -è, -o) is the last letter, while opus does not end on a vowel. In Italian, the word opera is either singular, and then just means "work" (of art etc.), or specifically "opera" (people singing and then dying theatrically), or it is possibly plural, but then it is a Latin word injected into the midst of an Italian discourse. --Lambiam^Talk 11:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I've never seen a neuter Latin noun form a plural with an interposed -er. Geogre 11:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

For opus see, e.g., [3]. There is also the neuter noun genus with plural genera. Not a noun but an adjective, but also getting -er- in other cases than the nominative or accusative singular, is vetus (old), which is also the neuter form, with neuter plural vetera. --Lambiam^Talk 12:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

More general groupings could be 'body', 'genre', 'style' or 'catalog'. -LambaJan 03:12, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Napoleon Bonaparte

Whould it be possible for someone today to rule an empire as large as Napoleon Bonapartes?

Thanks -anon —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.193.39.27 (talk • contribs) 18:34, June 11, 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the current rulers of China rule an empire larger both population and size.

Until 15 years ago the soviet rulers also ruled a vest ad diverse empire. They used methods very similar to Napoleon- that is ruling the conquered territories as nominally independent puppet states. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 152.163.100.72 (talk • contribs) 18:58, June 11, 2006 (UTC)

Maybe. A empire is a region ruled by (usually but not always) an empress or emperor. So you could say that lots of countries now are bigger than Napoleon's empire. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.20.208.10 (talk • contribs) 18:52, June 11, 2006 (UTC)

It is far easier to rule a large empire now. In Napoleon's time, you didn't have instant communications with every part of your empire 24-hours a day. In my opinion, the new empires are not countries. They are businesses, such as the Wal-Mart empire. Calculate the land and people controlled by Wal-Mart and it is a viable country all its own. --Kainaw ^(talk) 13:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Is it possible? Yes, certainly. Russia, Canada, the United States and the People's Republic of China are all larger than Napoleon's empire in sheer size. India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Brazil, and Indonesia (in addition to the US, Russia and the PRC, above, but not Canada) control larger populations than Napoleon did. However, the only empire still in existence today is the Empire of Japan, which is about the same in population as Napoleon's empire but much smaller in land area. —Cuiviénen 21:14, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't know about Japan. Its head of state may be an emperor, but Japan itself (herself?) if not considered an empire in any sense. It does not have any such title in its official name and it makes no claim to control of territories outside its borders (apart from disputed possessions such as the Kurile islands). JackofOz 23:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

There used to be an empire of Japan. However, they lost it all in WWII. --mboverload@ 05:58, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The deal with Japan - Japan is technically an empire. However, the emperor (if there is one) does not assume as much power. It did lose all of its gains from WWII, but no more.

Genghis Khan's empire was the largest in human history, but it didn't last long. EamonnPKeane 14:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Info on the Society for the Domination of Women

I heard about the Society for the Domination of Women on an old show from the late 50's. He was calling it something that sounded like SODA or SODAWO. I tried googling it but found nothing. Any info or place to look would be awesome! Thanks -Katrina —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.205.81.18 (talk • contribs) 19:40, June 11, 2006 (UTC)

It sounds to me like it would have been a joke, and even if it wasn't a joke, such an organization would probably have been rather ephemeral. But you can look at Loving Female Authority and Matriarchy... AnonMoos 15:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, /soda probablly was a joke. However in the theirs was an organization called the womans party it took fairly radical feminist positions (at least for the time period) and was sometimes fairly or unfairly labeled as antiman. Perhaps "soda" is spoof on them.

The very extreme feminist organisation was Valerie Solanas' Society for Cutting Up Men (SCUM). We also have an article on the SCUM Manifesto which includes a link to an online copy.-gadfium 06:06, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

No, its not a feminist org. but quite the opposite. He was saying he believed and the Society promoted, that women shouldn't work, should stay home, should stay out of politics, shouldn't be allowed to vote, shouldn't go to college, etc. He was very serious about it. BaptistKitty 22:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)Katrina

Salaries of justices of the SCOTUS

The POTUS makes $400,000, but what do the justices make? Do they have other sources of income? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ronbarton (talk • contribs) 21:31, June 11, 2006 (UTC)

According to the articles Chief Justice of the United States and Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States, the Chief Justice earns $208,100 per annum and the Associate Justices slightly less: $199,200. --Canley 05:12, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Arthur C. Clarke Book

Sorry...I didn't get my answer yet? I want to know the names of all 3 books of Arthur c. clarkes trilogy "The Blue Planet Triology" I have read one. "The Reefs of Taprobane"

But i couldn't find any of these books in his book index in wikipedia. So anyone wh knows them, plz update the article asap.

Sithara from Sri Lanka. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.247.209.130 (talk • contribs) 05:52, June 12, 2006 (UTC)

The Coast of Coral (vol. 1), The Reefs of Taprobane (vol. 2), and The Treasure of the Great Reef (vol. 3). —Wayward ^Talk 13:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow, all three of those are listed clearly in the article Arthur C. Clarke. What a strange place for an encyclopedia to keep such information. --Kainaw ^(talk) 14:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, only one of the volumes was listed in the article. I added the other two after I posted them here :) —Wayward ^Talk 15:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

IS the surname FRESE related to the Double Decker Bus

IS the surname FRESE related to the design, development, invention, or "in any way" to the Double Decker Bus?

First name may (or not) be Joseph, Henry, or William.

This name is of German decent around Hamburg, Germany. William Frese came to the United States in the late 1800's. Lived in Virginia.

His son was Joseph Henry Frese Sr., born in America (Virginia, died 1935 in Oakland, CA). ... I was told this man was associated with inventing the Double Decker Bus. Perhaps the design or even "re-design" area. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Minkiee (talk • contribs) 09:50, June 12, 2006 (UTC)

Depending on the exact age of the gentleman, I suspect he was not the inventor of the original double-decker bus, but it is possible that he created one of the many redesigns. One of the references in our Double-decker bus article quotes a former British Prime Minister, William Ewart Gladstone, as saying "Yes, gentlemen, the way to see London is from the top of a 'bus—from the top of a 'bus, gentlemen." As Mr Gladstone died in 1898, this suggests that at least one form of double-decker bus was well established before that time. Road Wizard 17:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

The word "bus" is a clipping of "omnibus," and so finding exact references is complicated. In 1898, and certainly earlier, the omnibus was not going to be, of course, an internal combustion vehicle, so Gladstone was probably not referring to what the questioner is interested in. Geogre 17:45, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Simple two-deck horse-drawn buses were in London as early as the 1860s [4] with modern-ish designs by the 1870s [5]. The modern double-decker is essentially just the old one without the horses, so it's not that far off. Shimgray | talk | 16:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I am asking here because I have had lots of trouble finding anyone's "NAME" connected with ANY of the designs, re-designs or the inventing of the double decker bus. Do you know "WHO" holds the patent for it? - and/or - WHO is credited for 'inventing' it??? Thanks!

General Kim Williams

Who was General Kim Williams?

All I know is that he was a scion of the House of Williams of North Wales, and was alive prior to 1800 possibly a lot earlier. He may have resided in Southern Ireland

Colinjr 17:55, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

De Berry Huguenot

Who were the De Berry brothers? And when did they arrive in England/Wales/Ireland?

They were Huguenot refugees.

Colinjr 17:58, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

If you type in De Berry on the search bar to the left, you will get quite a few Wikipedia articles about people with this name. Otherwise, we'd have to know more about the brothers (which is what you don't know, I guess).

I checked a French name list but couldn't find De Berry. My ancestors were Huguenot and their names are there. You could also search for "de berry" huguenot on Google or Yahoo or another and you'll find lots of information. --Halcatalyst 02:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Could it be a mis-hearing/mis-spelling of Du Barry? This someimes happens with "foreign" names.(hotclaws**== 12:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC))

Please identify this science-fiction short story

When I was a child I read a short story that has affected me greatly. I'd like to reread the story now that I'm an adult, but can't locate it. Here's a plot synopsis...

The planet has been entirely overrun by humans. The society measure it's progress in kilograms of brain mass, and everyone lives in very dense cities. Human waste is shipped out to sea, and kelp is harvested to eat. As a hobby, a man keeps alive the last remaining patch of grass, a bird or other small animal, maybe a lizard or something, in his apartment. One day he receives a notice form the government that his building will be torn down to construct an even larger housing complex, and he is order to vacate. He can't take his pets with him, so he destroys everything and then commits suicide.

I read this story about 25 years ago, but I think it was in an anthology of science-fiction short stories from the mid-1960s. I thought it was by Heinlein, but after searching through many of his works, I'm not so sure anymore.

Thanks for your help, Andy 216.98.254.8 19:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it's by Isaac Asimov -- if memory serves, it was one of a pair of stories dealing with the "last living non-human thing", one glorifying and the other lamenting the concept. However, I don't recall the titles. — Lomn Talk 19:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I can confirm Asimov. Political Mind 20:38, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

It actually sounds rather un-Asimov-like to me, and I've read many (but not all) of his short stories. But if others confirm, disregard this. :-) zafiroblue05 | Talk 00:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I think maybe I found it: 2430 AD? Didn't get a very good review at this website, though. --vibo56 ^talk 19:07, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Help!!!

My Grandfather was in World War 2 but his name is not in the world war 2 veterans list. Why is that??? His name is Raymond J. Bastian!

Not listed in what list? What country, even? Rmhermen 23:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

There is an article List of World War II veterans. The people listed all have a Wikipedia article and are notable for other reasons than being a veteran. --Lambiam^Talk 11:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry but there were 16 million soldiers and sailors involved in WWII just in the U.S. I don't think we can put up a list that big on here. If he was U.S., there is a registry here: [[6]] where you can add his name if he isn't there already. Nowimnthing 17:52, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

history

I want to know more about Beringia.

Well, we don't always get what we want. schyler 23:26, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Generals from wwII

Are their any WWII Generals from any nation who still live?

So far, I've only found one: Robert Moncel was promoted to brigadier general in the Canadian armed forces in 1944. Still looking, though. —Zero Gravitas 05:11, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Unlikely. Officers who held rank above brigadier-general would invariably have been in their forties and would, of course, now be exceptionally old. Nevertheless, there are/were numerous officers who became generals, even field marshals, after the war. Some of the last surviving I've managed to locate include Field Marshal Waldemar Levy Cardoso (according to the article, served as a lieuttenant-colonel during WWII), Brigadier-General Robert E. Galer (died in June 2005), Brigadie James "Speedy" Hill (died in March Telegraph 2006, Guardian 2004), and Brigadier John Profumo (died in January). SoLando (Talk) 13:43, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

nineteenth century latin america

why would latin political stablility be such a challenge to latin leaders in the nineteeth century ?

See colonialism or the course materials you've probably been asked to read. Geogre 03:11, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

education in the US

What is the percentage of people in the US who have a BA or higher? What is the percentage of people in their mid to late 20's who have a BA or higher?

For information up to 2004, see NCES tables. For males and females age 25+, 27.7% had a bachelor's degree or higher. For males and females between 25 and 29, 28.7% had a bachelor's degree or higher. Ziggurat 02:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not the person who asked the question but nice answer! It's a very nice resource, unfortunately the tables seem to go from "high school completion or higher" to "Bachelor's degree or higher". What do you suppose the percentages look like for "any college credit", 1 year of college credit, and associate's equiv. (2 years). Demographic surveys (marketing) frequently supply "some college". What percentage do you suppose has this but less than a college degree in America? (perhaps including currently enrolled students...) 87.97.8.197 19:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Manatory retirement age

What is the mandatory retirement age for British military officers?

Hitler's biological children

Are their any known or suspected biological children of Adolf Hitler?

No. - Nunh-huh 23:52, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

But what if their were, could they still be his? VdSV9•♫ 01:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually there was an utterly fascinating student film filmed in a documentary style done on what would happen if they cloned Hitler. They did it to see if genetics would make him turn into the same person. He didn't. However, when he and other people found out he was "forced" by society to start looking like Hitler. Extremely thought provoking, something you rarely see in the movies. --mboverload@ 05:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

And let´s not forget David Gardner and his story about 'The Last of the Hitlers' [7] --nodutschke 14:21, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

See The Boys From Brazil. User:Zoe|^(talk) 16:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

That rather reminds me of Robert Harris' book Archangel, which theorises about a possible child of Joseph Stalin.

There is also a fictional Australian movie "Children of the Revolution" about a son of Joseph Stalin. Andjam 09:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Hitler apparently never had sex with Eva Braun (or anyone) because he saw himself as genetically inferior (short, brown eyes, black hair) to the tall, blond, blue-eyed Aryan race he was building and so he didn't want to perpetuate his genes. Also he only had one ball, so it probably hurt a lot. EamonnPKeane 14:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Condom use

When did condom use become regular?

See the history section on the condoms article. Also: please sign your comments by adding four tildes (~~~~) to the end of each one. Emmett5 23:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

June 13

Most movies

File:MGM Ident 1928.jpg

World's most prolific actor?

Anybody know what actor or actress has appeared in the greatest number of movies?

• Jackie, in the role of Leo the Lion.--Pharos 00:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Could you clarify the following?

-Are you only concerned about North American/Europeans Films?

-Do you consider a very small role, or a voice role as an "appearance"?

-What exactly do you mean by "movie"? (e.g. does a made-for-TV movie count?

--CE

• heh. I like Pharos's suggestion. As far as humans go (other than mentioning the man with the gong in the J Arthur Rank movies, that is), it will almost certainly be someone from the silent movie era, since they were churned out at a great rate of knots. It was not unusual for silent movie stars to appear in a dozen movies per year. Grutness...wha? 01:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Not the answer but; the Gunness book of records says that John Wayne is the actor with the greatest number of lead roles: 142 of 153 films. MeltBanana 02:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Christopher Lee would have to be up there. He has appeared in 227 films, and is still going strong. JackofOz 02:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure even they could match John Wayne or Christopher Lee, but pornographic 'actors' and 'actresses' appear in shockingly high numbers of "films" (especially if you count every cut of a set of scenes as a film). A pornographic actress may have a career of 18 months and appear in 100 filmic products. I suppose this is, yet again, one of those examples of why it pays to specify. Further, though, and more seriously, Bollywood outpaces Hollywood in number of films and yet has a smaller set (over time) of lead players, so I should imagine that some of the major stars of Indian cinema would pass even the infamous Kevin Bacon. Geogre 03:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

When this triva question is asked, the usual answer given is Tom Mix , but there were virtually all silent shorts. A British bit part actor called Sam Kydd is well-known for turning up with minor roles in hundreds of films. Jooler 10:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

According to imdb, Indian actor Adoor Bhasi made 553 movies. Mel Blanc is credited with 952 appearances, but most of those were cartoon shorts and almost all were voices, not screen appearances.

I have found more. Actor Tom London has 597 credits. Edmund Cobb has 605. Bud Osborne has 590. Actress Bess Flowers has 709. User:Zoe|^(talk) 17:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

What about the Columbia TriStar Motion Picture Group woman in the white dress holding the torch? She didn't even get paid for that.

graduation and tassels

Which direction does one move the tassel at high school graduation - right to left or left to right, and why?

According to this page tassels are worn on the right before the graduate receives the diploma, and on the left afterwards. Why? Sounds like a question for the Straight Dope. Ziggurat 02:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Oedipus complex

Is Oedipus Rex the first documented expression of the Oedipus complex known? In other words, are there any documented evidence of any form, expressing the ideas of Freud's Oedipus complex that date back before the play: Oedipus Rex?

Any help available would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Do you mean the psychological complex or the event? The complex was first described by Freud, to the best of my knowledge, and used the event (killing the father and marrying the mother) from Oedipus Rex as the metaphor for that complex. To clarify: the play doesn't psychologize or extend the event to a psychological directive inherent in all humans, that's the complex, and came much later. If you're asking whether there are any events in literature of a similar kind that predate Oedipus Rex, I'm not aware of any. Ziggurat 03:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

If you read the sources both the Oedipus and Electra complexes are shockingly badly named but what do you expect from a coke-head?(hotclaws**== 12:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC))

Freud surely didn't rely on the fiction of Sophocles to form his conception of the Oedipus Complex. By that I mean, Freud surely didn't rely on that play as being the defining moment of when his theory of that particular aspect of human sexuality began. The play was simply a very convenient tool to express Freud's basic theories of human sexuality. Just as "sodomy" surely existed before the biblical tale of Sodom and Gomorrah, and that vain human tendency to attempt to lessen the value of what one cannot obtain surely predated Aesop's Sour Grapes fable, the Oedipus Complex was surely not "invented" by Sophocles. Loomis51 22:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

War Power of US Congress

Representative John Murtha who is an outspoken critic of the continued U.S. military presence in Iraq says that he will still continue to vote for the $8 billion monthly tab.

Prima facie, I thought that he is hypocritic. However, maybe I don't clearly understand the War Powers Clause (Article 1, § 8, clause 11) and the revelant statutes. Could it be that even if all the members of Congress like Rep. Murtha and Robert C. Byrd stopped funding the war, then they still wouldn't be able to stop the war? That it would just give ammunition to war proponents to attack Murtha and his fellows for not supporting the troops.

Can you explain this matter to me? Does there need to be 1/2 or 2/3 of Congress to stop the war?Patchouli 04:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

It appears that you are mixing two different things. By Constitutional definition, the "war" in Iraq is a "police action". The United States has not had a "war" since World War II. Because it is Constitutionally a "police action", Bush only required authorization from Congress to use force - which he received. As for funding, Congress sets the budget. They could cut military funding in an attempt to stop the war by depleting financial resources, but the President can divert military spending from other areas (like border patrol). Congress could then pass a law about diverting funding if they liked. However, as it stands, Congress is very busy being politicians. They voted to authorize use of force. They have continually voted to authorize a lot of money to continue using force. All the while, they've been pointing at Bush and blaming him for everything. It makes me wonder if the citizens of the United States will ever hold Congress responsible or will they continue to blame President after President for the actions of Congress. --Kainaw ^(talk) 12:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Other than World War II, what are the other "formal wars?"Patchouli 16:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  See Declaration of war by the United States. — Lomn Talk 16:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Hypothetically speaking, if the Congress wanted to stop funding the Iraq War, would there have to be a supermajority in both congressional chambers or a simple majority?Patchouli 17:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Just to make things clear, those who oppose the war but vote for funding are doing so in order to make sure that US troops are kept safe. User:Zoe|^(talk) 17:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Paying for Iraq is a funding issue. It would require 3/5th vote. 2/3 is reserved for changing Congressional rules (I assume this included ammendments to the Constitution). As for why a senator or representative would be against the war and still vote for funding it, that is speculation. One may be for keeping troops safe, while another has a manufacturer of HMMWV armor in their state and yet another is paid off by a civil contractor doing joint business with the military in Iraq. One could even use it to ensure people continue hating Bush for the war until the next election. --Kainaw ^(talk) 18:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Just curious, where can I find the 3/5th rule? Loomis51 21:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

It is found in the supermajority article. "The United States Senate requires a supermajority of 60 percent (3/5) to move to a vote through a cloture motion, which closes debate on a bill or nomination, thus ending a filibuster by a minority of members."Patchouli 02:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

It could be a simple majority vote for a budget vote - but I'm not sure. I know it doesn't require a "supermajority" which is 3/4 vote. A 3/5 vote pops up all over with Congress (such as a 3/5 vote to end a filibuster). So, since I wasn't sure if it was a 3/5 or a simple majority, I opted for the greater of the two. I'd rather be wrong with 3/5 than wrong with >50%. --Kainaw ^(talk) 22:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure spending bills are no different from other bills and require only a simple majority. But if people in the Senate really objected to it, they could filibuster. It would take a three-fifths vote in the Senate to end the filibuster. -- Mwalcoff 00:31, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• I think it would be possible for 41 US senators to cut funding to the Iraq War by filibustering and sinking the bill for war funds. Concurrently, they could pass a law to forbid Bush from diverting funds to the war with the help of 10 additional senators, thereby bring the war to a halt or lowering troop deployment to 50,000 in an ideal world.Patchouli 02:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• I have been proved correct since today US senators voted 93-6 to shelve the proposal, which would have allowed "only forces that are critical to completing the mission of standing up Iraqi security forces" to remain in 2007 - forget about blocking funding. I am personally on the fence about staying in Iraq, but I wanted to verify that it isn't just President Bush who is holding the troops in Iraq singlehandedly. John Kerry and five other Democrats were in the minority on the vote — Russ Feingold of Wisconsin, Barbara Boxer of California, Robert Byrd of West Virginia, Tom Harkin of Iowa, and Edward M. Kennedy of Massachusetts.[8]Patchouli 20:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Highest Paid Athlete in 1986

I have spent literally hours over the last couple days searching for the name of the highest paid athlete in 1986, with our without endorsements. I found one site that said it was possibly Geoge Foster of the New York Mets. Can this be true? Thank You!!! CEP --65.111.193.170 05:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

For what sport and what country? What about Diego Maradona? I'm sure he made far more money in 1986 than anyone playing baseball in the US. Adam Bishop 16:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

timeline

timeline by editor 1

i'm looking a time line about cathy freeman...

THANKS!!!!!

Have you looked at Cathy Freeman yet? JackofOz 06:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• This question was deleted by another editor by mistake and has now been restored. Road Wizard

timeline by editor 2

Can anyone give me the timeline of indian forts? i really need help.

PS> some jerk changed this question already, no need for you to do it again. plz answer only, [broadband PA redacted].

Could you clarify your request? The statement as it stands is quite vague. — Lomn Talk 16:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• I think we answered a similar question a few days ago, possibly from the same author. Please see the articles in Category:Forts in India as that holds the information we have available. As it says at the top of the page, Do your own homework, we won't do it for you. Road Wizard 19:11, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I have split this question in two because there appears to have been a misunderstanding. This edit was a new question about Cathy Freeman. Whilst this edit asked a question about Indian fort timelines on June 8. I think the author of the Idian question assumed that someone had deleted their question and replace the Cathy Freeman one with this. The June 8 question is still listed here. Now that both questions are restored, this will hopefully resolve the misunderstanding. Road Wizard 20:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Cherry

Another random phrase question: Does anyone know where the phrase "X is cherry" (for instance, "the car is cherry", meaning there is nothing wrong with it) comes from? Thanks in advance for any ideas! — QuantumEleven 06:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Fairly vulgar, but I believe it refers to the item being untouched and virginal. I.e. the usage derives from the slang usage of "cherry" for hymen. Geogre 11:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Tends to be "mint" in the UK,so flavour comes into it?(hotclaws**== 12:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)) I always assumed 'in mint condition' and hence 'mint' originally referred to freshness, but that may be a little too folk-etymology. Skittle 16:02, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm under the impression that "mint" is in reference to the minting process, i.e. just made, not related to the flavor. — Lomn Talk 16:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

As soon as I read your edit summary I did a little forehead slap.... :-) Skittle 16:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Editions of John Calvin's Commentaries

I have trandlated Calvins Commentaries on the Epistles of St Paul into Afrikaans. In his Commentaries on Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians he dedicated it to a certain Christophorus, Count os Wittenberg. This implies that these commentaries were published in one volume. Where can I get a list of the Latin editions published during and after his lifetime? I also ned a list of translations of these commentaries in English, French German and Dutch or in any other langusge if such a translation exists. My thanks in anticipation of a reply. (I heve a neurological balance problem which makes it virtually impossible to visit liberaries) Prof. S. Postma e-mail stepostma at mweb dot co dot za (email translitterated with the aim to avoid you spam or worse).

Instead of visiting libraries, might a little visit on the net be of some help ? We'll try also, let the winner win! --DLL 18:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

That site has front pages photographs of those buks and tells things like : "Calvin wrote commentaries on all of Paul's epistles; most of these were published individually from Romans in 1540 through Titus in 1548 and Hebrews in 1549. He published a revised edition ..." Take a look and tell us if you liked it. --DLL 19:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

English Comic Verse

I am looking for the text of a comic verse,which begins:-

"Upon the river's bank serene A fisher sat, where all was green, And looked it!

At last, when light was growing dim, he saw a fish, or the fish saw him, And hooked it"

Each verse has the 'double entendre' of those shown above.

Tony

Check out this page. --vibo56 ^talk 15:50, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Cameron vs, Brown

In the UK who would likely win in the next general election Cameron's party (Conservative) or Browns party (Labor)? Who is personally more popular Cameron of Brown?

From my personal point of view, David Cameron has done a pretty good job at charming the media since he became leader of the Conservative Party. However, he is only now starting to reveal his party's policies, and there has been quite a negative reaction to these (particularly considering withdrawing the European Democrats from its aliance with the European People's Party). Gordon Brown is likely to be the next leader of the Labour Party (note how the name of the party is spelled). He is suffering at the moment from the fading popularity of Tony Blair's government, but many see him as good for the economy (or at least better than anyone else around). If Cameron's policies continue to meet with negative reaction and Brown is able to stamp his own authority on Labour, it's going Brown's way. Otherwise, we're in for a close race. The third party, the Liberal Democrats, also have a new leader, Menzies Campbell. He is generally regarded as too old and cautious to bring the party into better fortunes. However, if the gap between Labour and Tories is narrowed, the Lib Dems may become a vey important part of the next government. — Gareth Hughes 10:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Nobody knows right now; election predictions this far out are notorious for being clobbered by external events. A classic example was the 2001 Australian federal election, where John Howard's Liberal Party looked like it was in serious trouble until external events intruded and the incumbent government exploited them to the hilt.

The best-known tools we have we have for answering your questions are probably opinion polls. If you look through the online archives, of, say, The Guardian, you'll almost certainly find relevant articles on pertinent public polling on this question.

One further answer to your question can be found on the betting exchanges. At the moment, BetFair has a betting market open on the next general election, and the odds for Labour and the Conservatives are pretty much the same. So it seems that in the collecting judgement of the punters, the next election is a tossup at this stage. Interestingly, the odds on a hung parliament are lower than either, indicating that they think that is the most likely possibility! --Robert Merkel 23:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Music question

I'm trying to find the name and artist of a song I heard. I heard it in the movie A Night at the Roxbury, but it is not on the soundtrack album. Part of the song (techno/insturmental) is briefly heard in a scene where the brothers are arguing in the car (I know, that's like every other scene in the movie!). The music is kind of suspenseful, agitated. Any ideas? - Cybergoth 14:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

There are a few tracks listed in the film's entry in the IMDB that don't appear on the soundtrack. It's probably one of those. Might help to narrow your search down a bit. --Richardrj 15:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

That was super-helpful! I found the song in 30 seconds - it's "Nightmare" by Brainbug. Thanks - Cybergoth 15:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Significance of metal stars on New England US buildings

Does anyone know the significance of all the stars on the sides of buildings throughout New England, USA? Some are attached to braces to anchor brick walls to a building, but why a star? And there are lots of decoration stars even on civil war era buildings. BrianInFrederick 15:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

There is some information for you in the Barnstar article, although it does not state specifically why a star shape was chosen. --LarryMac 16:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)*

any conection with Hex Marks? (hotclaws**== 11:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC))

How to upload spreadsheet into article

Dear Wikipedia,

Can you please help me with an upload. I have done a graphical analysis of one of the movements (Lauda Jerusalem) of Monteverdi's Vespers of 1610 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monteverdi_Vespers_of_1610). I noticed that images can be uploaded but did not see any references to spreadsheets.

Thank you very much!

Stan Baker Richmond, VA

You can add tables to the articles using either HTML table tags or WikiMedia table structure. That will allow a grid of data to be easily added. If it is a graph you want to add, save it as an image and upload it. --Kainaw ^(talk) 17:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

looking for typical 'Chinese' mountains

Hello,

I don't know if this belongs here, but I would like to know more about those 'typical' Chinese mountains. Whenever mountains of China (in the People's Republic of China) are shown, they show these quite tall, how to say this, sharp peaks all close to each other. I find this very beautiful, but I would like to know, what are they called and where (in what province, because China is really big) are they?

This is what I mean : http://www.georgeandpaula.com/photos/china/china15.jpg

Evilbu 16:12, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

See Himalaya. They are rather new in the mountain sense - so they are tall and pointy. Very old mountains, like the Smokey Mountains in the U.S. are flat and round. --Kainaw ^(talk) 17:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean? I really don't think the picture shows Himalayan mountains? I don't any snow?Evilbu 19:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

but you also don't any verb...

I mean, click on the word Himalaya and you will see an article about a huge range of mountains in southwest China (and neighboring countries). That is not the only mountain range in China, but it is the largest. As for snow, what makes you think that every mountain in the Himalaya range has snow on it? That's just silly. I did look at other photos in the collection of the photo you included. It appears to be a trip from Beijing to the Great Wall, and then up the Huanghe River to the foothills of the Himalaya. But, that is just a guess since he didn't label them. --Kainaw ^(talk) 19:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

There are a large number of mountain ranges in China, and it will be quite difficult to identify the specific ones in the photo you linked to. I must admit, however, that the ones in the photo don't look like any part of the Himalayas I have ever seen. A quicker way to answer your question may be to contact the creator of the photo at the website you listed (http://www.georgeandpaula.com). Their website says "George" took it on his 1986 tour of China. Road Wizard 19:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Definitely not the Himalayas. This is a vague recollection from a course in Asian art I took way too long ago, but the "typical" Chinese mountains that one finds in ink and wash painting are mostly from the Song Dynasty of China. If I'm remembering correctly, the Northern Song dynasty (960-1127) had its capital in Kaifeng, where the mountains are quite rugged, while the Southern Song (1127-1279)had its capital at Hangzhou, south of the Yangtse River where the hills are much more rounded and the climate lends itself to mist. The court artists obviously painted whatever was around them so, going way out on a limb, I would guess that you are thinking of the Southern Song rounded hills around Kaifeng, perhaps of the Yangtse or a nearby tributary. Take a look at the pictures in those articles and see if they strike a chord. - BT 19:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Those pictures look to me exactly like the mountains I saw travelling along the Li River in China - i took a couple of pictures just like that; i'm thinking of this one in particular. Hope this helps! СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 20:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Darn it, you beat my correction! The photos at Lijiang River in Guangxi Province look pretty similar. - BT 20:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Korean swirly thing

What is that Korean swirly symbol that looks kind of like a yin-yang? I see it all the time in Korean restaurants and I think there's a big one hanging in Gimpo airport. It's red, white, and blue and it looks like a yin-yang but there are three swirl things instead of two. Is there an article about this? Thanks!

interesting question. is it depicted to the left of the first picture here? (It seems to match your description, but with black for red. If that's what it looks like we can look for more pictures, history, culture, etc, and with some help from koreans on wp I think (based on what you said above) that the symbol would merit a nice article. 87.97.8.197 19:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

That's it, except I usually see red instead of black! I see that thing all the time. Surely it means something.

It's called the Sam-Taeguk, and is a variation of the Taeguk symbol, seen on the flag of South Korea.--Pharos 23:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

See also article Triskelion for somewhat similar-looking symbols; I added a picture of the 1988 Seoul Olympics logo to Taeguk. AnonMoos

Need Help finding the Title to a series of books, please...

I read this series of book sabout 10 years ago and would really like to find them, the problem is that I can't remember the title or the author. The books were about this girl who was somthing of a warrior, she also had "seeing" powers. She was on a quest, I think that she had purple eyes. If anyone has any idea of what I'm talking about- or can help me in finding the series I would really appreciate the input.

Thank you- E

Is it Witch Baby? [9] Just a guess from googling (girl quest "purple eyes") Nowimnthing 20:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Unfortuantely it's not- but this looks like an interesting read...Thanks though.* Witch World series by Andre Norton?(hotclaws**== 11:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC))

I'm almost certianly wrong, and I'm definitely too old for popular contemporary sci-fi/fantasy, but didn't Ursula K. LeGuin have orange skin and funky eyes for one of her protagonists in the Earthsea books? Geogre 12:21, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you all for your help...I actually found the answer from another site. It's a Tamora Pierce series...

Doctors and medical care in the early industrial revolution

Hi. I'm trying to find some info on the above topic, (I'll be refuting whether doctors managed to solve the healthcare problems of industrialising Britain) and not doing too well. Basically looking for info on basic medical healthcare in the early industrial revolution, (mainly over the 1800's) and looking for examples. Any suggestions? (Any help gratefully accepted)

As a starter, you may wish to read through the articles listed in Category:British doctors. At least a few of the articles I checked were about doctors of the 18 hundreds. Road Wizard 21:21, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Roy Porter's last book, I believe, was on the history of medicine in the 18th century. Rather large, and not very readable by his standards (the metaphors he pursues feel forced to me). Additionally, Michel Foucault's The Birth of the Clinic is short, but it's primarily about France during that era. Geogre 00:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Quakers were very progressive in the health care of their workers E.G. the Rowntrees(hotclaws**== 11:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC))

Old Radio Show

I heard this old radio show one night on late night radio (right before bed to, bad idea) It was about some astronauts thats went out to space and some problems happened and the ship blew up... well when it did the 5 or so who were left when floating off in different directions in space. The story then went on about how one by one they went insane or killed them selves or died. Like one went into the sun and the last one plumeted into the earth. Well then the show ended with this little girl in the park with her mom and telling her mom "look it a shooting star" and it was the guy going into the earth. It was kinda scary (especially considering I was laying in bed in the dark by my self and it was like midnight). I've tried looking for it and asking people but no one know what it was. Any ideas would be great! Thanks BaptistKitty 22:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)Katrina

• I think we might need some more information. First off, what country were you in when you heard it on the radio? Also, roughly how long ago was it? (A month, a year, etc.) Road Wizard 23:02, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

It's "Kaleidoscope" by Ray Bradbury. It appeared as a short story in The Illustrated Man. --Joelmills 00:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, thats it!! Thanks for the help! Katrina 03:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)Katrina

ER and insurance

Hi, i've always wanted to know the answer to this question but, in my european surroundings (i'm british), no one is able to give me an fact based, non-aren't-americans-bad type answer. basically, given that america has no universal health care (tut tut) and given that alot of people dont have health insurance (is it really as high as 40 million?) what happens when a non-insured person is in a serious accident? is he left on the hospital doorstep? is he treated then presented which a large bill which he can never pay back? or does the hospital, in a moments fiscal blindness, do it pro bono? or does it vary completely? thanks! 87.194.20.253 23:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

American hospital emergency rooms are required to treat all patients, those who can't pay, don't and end up raising the bills of those who can. Some doctors also treat uninsured patients for free (especially those with life-threatening conditions), which may require those doctors to raise the health fees of their other patients. Emmett5 00:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

All of the above, but the last 2 are by far the most common. All US hospitals that benefited from public money are required to render some charity care to the poor by the Hill-Burton Act. This is satisfied in a variety of ways. Because there have been real instances where a critically ill or injured person has been turned away at the door (usually by sending them in an ambulance to a hospital the accepts indigient patients), there are regulations in nearly all states that prohibit hospitals with emergency departments from transfering or denying service to someone with a condition that represents a threat of real harm even if they cannot pay. The majority of ED visits in big cities by the poor however do not fall into that category from a medical perspective. Finally, your last scenario is also all too real as well, and hospitals often turn unpaid bills over to bill collectors. Unpayable medical bills are a factor in a minority of bankruptcy filings. alteripse 10:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

As I'm told by Americans, the real problem with emergency care in the US arises not if you are very very poor; you'll get your emergency needs taken care of, and probably paid for you. The problem is that if you have any money at all you are then liable for the bill, which may run to tens of thousands of dollars, and probably more than you would pay in other countries. The moral of this story: if you are visiting the US be very, very sure you have medical insurance. It also explains why European travel insurance comes in three price ranges: Europe (cheap); Everywhere except the US (expensive); Everywhere including the US (very expensive). DJ Clayworth 14:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks guys! exactly what i needed i know...87.194.20.253 12:01, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

June 14

Ulm

What is the nearest airport of any kind to Ulm, Germany?

• From the city centre, the closest airport is Stuttgart (STR) at 65.8 km, and the next closest that of Augsburg (AGB) at 68.8 km. I don't know whether that is "as the crow flies" or the travel distance by car. --Lambiam^Talk 01:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Note that there are almost certainly minor aerodromes or airstrips closer. Searching [Fallingrain.com may help more. Grutness...wha? 03:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Humans

On average, what is the most ticklish part of the body? Most of the time I get feet but that's not my main turn-on.

On a purely anecdotal and subjective basis, I would guess the soles of the feet (not the feet in general) and the elbows... AnonMoos 01:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

It depends on the person, but tickling should give you the answer. --ColourBurst 01:37, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Are you referring to a sexual "turn-on"? Erogenous zones and ticklish zones are not necessarily the same places. Tickling can definitely be a turn-off if done to excess. JackofOz 04:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

On average, surely it would be somewhere near the waist. Soles of feet and top of head would average there, to start with. Grutness...wha? 08:51, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Validity of Ayatollah Khomeini Quotes Condoning Pedophilia/Bestiality

My question concerns quotes attributed to Ayatollah Khomeini in the new book "The Dunces of Doomsday: 10 Blunders That Gave Rise to Radical Islam, Terrorist Regimes, and the Threat of an American Hiroshima" by Paul L. Williams. The book is published by WND Books (World Net Daily) and the author is obviously quite conservative (even President Bush and Donald Rumsfeld are "dunces" - apparently not conservative enough). The bias of the author and the sheer outrageousness of the quotes greatly aroused my suspicion.

Anyway, here are the quotes. From page 53:

"A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate; sodomizing the child is OK. If the man penetrates and damages the child, then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however, does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl's sister... It is better for a girl to marry in such a time when she would begin menstruation at her husband's house rather than her father's house. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven." (the citation given is listed on page 205, "Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, Tahrirolvasyleh, vol. 4 (Gom, Iran: Darol Elm 1990), 186.")

The other quote appears (the position of the quote is a bit odd) to be attributed to Khomeini (with no citation given), from page 61:

"A man can have sex with animals such as sheep, cows, camels, and so on. However, he should kill the animal after orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in the village; however, selling the meat to people in a neighboring village is permissible."

Did Khomeini really write these things? If so, is there possibly some context that could explain them? Or was he really straight out condoning these things?

Thank you.

-Edvard

• If you have not done so yet, you could wade through the maze and clutter on Talk:Ruhollah Khomeini to sift some things from the lengthy discussion.Patchouli 04:57, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The Tahrirolvasyleh reminds me a bit of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, both in terms of its proliferation (solely by virulent opponents of its alleged author) and its overall vibe of spuriousness. The fact that this author (presumably without ironic intent) describes Jimmy Carter as "the worst president in America's history" makes me doubt not only his credibility but his sanity. It doesn't help that his book is published by World Net Daily, which combines the humanity of Der Stürmer with the journalistic integrity of The National Enquirer. Bhumiya (said/done) 05:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

That's a bit uncalled for. WND does more to highlight and condemn the use of the Protocols than its critics. Andjam 06:57, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• I haven't read Paul L. Williams' book. But Jimmy Carter himself was fooled by Khomeini's rhetoric that ostensibly championed freedom of speech and press. As a result, Carter was on the fence in terms of supporting Muhammad Reza Pahlavi, would only begrudgingly welcome the Shah into the US on 22 October 1979 for medical treatment, and really wanted to befriend the Ayatollah until Khomeini endorsed the storming of the US Embassy in Tehran 13 days later.

In fact, the Shah knew that Carter would not help him topple Khomeini which is why after his overthrow on 11 February 1979, the Shah fumbled in Africa trying to enlist the help of Egypt and Morocco to return to power which did not work out.Patchouli 06:19, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• According to this article on Theo Van Gogh, it seems that Van Gogh's phrase "goat-f*ckers" was a reference to Khomeini's alleged teachings. Considering who he was murdered by, he must have been on the right track overall. Andjam 06:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Use of "Merovingian" in Proust

I thought it would be easy to figure this out, but all the definitions I find for "Merovingian" are like "of or relating to the first Frankish dynasty..."; but what does Proust mean when he uses in _Swann's Way_? What is the cultural significance of it, as the narrative is set in the late 19th century? Thanks!

Well he seems to use it in a variety of ways[10]. Merovingian Past probably just means the distant past, while Merovingian age probably refers to the fact that the Merovingians were the beginning of the dark ages. Please wait while someone comes along to explain that the dark ages were not as dark as they are made out to be. Another allusion which the Merovingians are often used for is the idea of petty, local despotic rulers compared to the all encompassing Roman empire. Finally, as a writer Proust may have been thinking of the Merovingian script.MeltBanana 03:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Banned Books

Are there any books that are banned by the United States government which even adults over 21 are prohibited access thereto?Patchouli 07:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

There are no books currently banned by the United States Government, that I am aware of. However, it is possible for a public school district to ban a book from their curriculum, for a locality to ban books from their local library, and for other local-level censorship to occur. A direct answer to your question is given here. Note that the article's implied speculation concerning instruction manuals on dirty bombs is wrong -- it's perfectly legal to print that information, and I've read international security journal articles that have discussed the same. (And it certainly doesn't take a nuclear physicist to figure it out anyway.) This page might also shed some light on the issue. --DavidGC 07:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Is a library not buying a book equivalent to banning it? Andjam 09:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

No. A library has two functions when it comes to books. They maintain a collection of books that are considered important. They hold a temporary collection of new and popular books that will soon be forgotten. If I write a book and get some fly-by-night publisher to make a few copies, there is absolutely no reason for the library to purchase it. That isn't because it is banned. It is because the book is neither important or popular. --Kainaw ^(talk) 13:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. between 1996 and 2002 I assume many books were implicitly banned for fictive depictions of minors (drawings, etc) that would [if they had depicted actual underage persons instead] constitute child pornography. The article I just links concludes "In a 6-3 opinion, the Court decided that the two above provisions were unconstitutional because they abridged 'the freedom to engage in a substantial amount of lawful speech.'" Of course, any books today that actually consist of underage actors engaged in sexually explicit conduct would be "banned" (both possession and distribution), but such a book would never even see publication, except self-published, with penalties for doing so. Books aren't banned in the united states for "political" reasons, if that's what you're thinking, but there are penalties in some states for hate speech (if you incite someone to violence against members of a protected group, tell them how to commit the violence, etc). Once you get into this class of legal issues all sorts of things limit free speech, from copyright law, contractual obligations (NDA's on trade secrets) national security (releasing classified documents you're privileged to, but this wouldnt apply to you unless you were the one abusing your security clearing), libel, etc. These are all free speech issues. But I'm not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. Talk to a lawyer if you're interested in what restrictions there are on publishing in the united states. 82.131.188.126 09:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

the closest recent thing (other than the pedophilia) I can think of is Hit Man which was not really banned by the U.S. courts, but the publisher settled out of court and agreed to destroy all copies. Interestingly some claim that made it public domain and have since published it online. Private businesses can of course censor what they carry. Government funded libraries and schools can choose what materials they carry according to local community standards, but as far as the government officially banning a book or movie it has happened in the past, esp. during McCarthyism but not recently. Nowimnthing 13:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Although not now banned James Joyce's Ulysses was banned for 11 years in the U.S.A, from 1922 til 1933. The U.S.A post office famously burned at least one batch of 500 copies which were imported into the country. It took a court case to get the ban lifted. AllanHainey 11:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

For more on which one may read United States v. One Book Entitled Ulysses (cited as 72 F.2d 705, 707 [C. A. 2d Cir. 1934], affirming 5 F. Supp. 182 [D.C. S.D.N.Y. 1933]), as is summarized here. Joe 16:56, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

oldest town in europe

Hi could you help me ..I have been trying to find out which is the oldest town in europe and keep coming up with conflicting info . There seems to be alarge number of towns which claim to be the oldest. I would greatly appreciate your help in this matter. In naswering coudl you also provide some historical back ground tho the town

The conflicting info is probably because about sixty or seventy towns/cities across Europe claim they are 'the oldest town in Europe'. It's just lies - I've been to four cities that I know of that have a restaurant that is 'the oldest in Europe'. I don't think there'd be a definitive answer - it all depends on your definition of town. Proto||type 11:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Humans (and their ancestors) have lived together in organized communities since way before recorded history, so the question is impossible to answer without a very precise definition of "town" that (just to start with) places it somewhere within recorded history. You might want to try approaching this by reading our article on civilization. --Shantavira 12:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

List of oldest continually-inhabited cities gives the nod to Damascus, about 6,500 years old. EamonnPKeane 13:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course Damascus isn't actually in Europe. AllanHainey 14:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Just wait. --DLL 17:51, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Gadir (current Cadiz) is considered the "most ancient city still standing in western Europe." But yeah, who knows. --RiseRover|^talk 20:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The answer becomes obvious once you define "oldest", "town", and "in Europe". --Serie 21:28, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

longest war in world

Kindly tell me, which was the longest war to have occurred in the whole world ? Please do not take into account any mythological views.Thanx. - KUTTU.

Well, by a simple Google search, it shoes that there is a consensus on the Hundred Years War being the longest war ever. Little tidbit though, it was actually called the one years war, but only at the beginning :) schyler 12:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Once again, it's a question of definition. According to our article on long Wars, the Three Hundred and Thirty Five Years' War between the Netherlands and the Isles of Scilly, [was] technically the longest war ever.--Shantavira 12:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Do not forget the eternal war between good and evil. --DLL 16:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

That one's mythical: there's no such thing as "good". --Serie 21:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

       Thankxx, for the references on long wars. But i am 
  really searching for a war - which was not a combination of
  petty battles, nor a culmination of several minor wars
  between arch rivals, and without any declared ceasefire .
  It might be nothing near those figures(yrs.)you mentioned,
  still, it should be a CONTINUOUS war , in real sense. It's
  not necessary, that it should be an ancient one , you can
  cite instances of modern day wars, till date.   
                                         thankxxx, once again
                                                       KUTTU.

You might be interested in the Thirty Years' War: thirty years of near-constant fighting in Germany. --Serie 19:29, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Confucianism report

I have been asked to write a report on "The teachings of Confucius as recorded in the Analects".

I am having trouble thinking of how to write and structure this. Is there a set number of teachings that he had in the Analects? Or should I just go over some of the main ones? Or is there some kind of an outline I could follow?

Help would be appreciated, thank you.

Have you considered reading Analects of Confucius, or did you simply want someone else to write it for you? --Kainaw ^(talk) 13:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes I have considered reading that. I have read it over several times, as well as other Wikipedia articles. I didn't ask anyone to write anything for me. All I asked was if anyone had suggestions on how to structure such a report on Confucius' teachings within the Analects. Have you considered reading PROPERLY, or do you simply jump to conclusions ALL the time? gelo 14:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I assume and jump to conclusions. It makes life more like a rollercoaster ride. I would suggest using the same structure as the article, with one addition. Who is Confucius? What are the Analects? When were they written? Why are they important? Basically, it is the generic structure that SHOULD be taught in any writing class: Who What Where When Why. In this case, the Where is assumed to be China. --Kainaw ^(talk) 14:28, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Who is Confucius? What are the Analects? When were they written? Why are they important?

Do your own homework, Kainaw.

82.131.188.126 15:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC). sorry, read too quickly

Ok, so you suggest to use the article outline. Well, the question is more concerning the TEACHINGS of Confucius as recorded in The Analects, and the present article on the Analects does not contain anything in much detail on the teachings contained therein.. gelo 06:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

BBC comeback list does not include de Gaulle

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5048382.stm

Because of Alan Garcia's comeback in Peru, BBC made a comeback list.

Why is de Gaulle missing?? Evilbu 13:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Because they forgot him. Because the wretched hack who wrote the list hadn't heard of him or failed to do his research. Because the list isn't exhaustive. Pick one or other of the reasons from the above non-exhaustive list. --Richardrj 14:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Did you use the form at the bottom of the article to suggest people they missed? I assume they left him out for two reasons. First, he's French and the BBC is British. Second, my limited knowledge of him is that he rose to power through the military and then fell out of favor in 1968 and retired. I don't know of a major comeback. --Kainaw ^(talk) 14:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

How about because he never really made a comeback (unless you count the first time he was elected as PM then President as France as a comeback from the period during which he wasn't the unelected head of the French Government in Exile). He was President of France once, albeit for 10 years, and was generally popular until he got increasingly unpopular, he resigned & later died. AllanHainey 14:21, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

In order to avoid confusion, what I would see as a comeback, is the start of the Fifth Republic of France, in the late fifties. Evilbu 14:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

To be fair, they did say "a guide to some" of the most successful comebacks. They never claimed it was a complete list, and they even asked people to nominate other entries. JackofOz 21:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I have proof that the FDA is tapping my phone calls?

Is this considered legal?—Yi^pe 15:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes. General Eisenhower • (at war or at peace) 16:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure it's the Federal Drug Administration that's doing it? Phone tapping is generally done by the FBI, CIA, NSA, and other law enforcement and intelligence agencies. Emmett5 16:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The FDA is the Food and Drug Administration. Maybe he or she is attempting to traffic in flour that hasn't been properly entoleted. --LarryMac 16:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

We have a long and detailed article on telephone tapping that describes the legal position. --Shantavira 17:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't you remember that thing Bush did? "In order to protect the freedom(s) of the american people.."? It had a name... the bill of whatever I guess...

A line that comes to mind is Big Brother is watching you. VdSV9•♫ 17:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I do remember. Back in 1978. Wasn't he a raging DWI drunk at the time? It is amazing how he was passing laws back then, but the conspiracy theorists can't be wrong. --Kainaw ^(talk) 17:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Something very odd is going on with this user... all their edits are on user pages about sockpuppets, and then there's this in his contributions:

1. 08:52, June 14, 2006 (hist) (diff) User:NSA powered vandalbot (very funny, ha ha) (top)
2. 08:51, June 14, 2006 (hist) (diff) User talk:Pgk (rv vandalism by FDA powered vandalbot)
3. 08:50, June 14, 2006 (hist) (diff) User talk:152.163.100.131 (→Your edit to Crab Nebula your vandalism by FDA powered vandalbot) (top)
4. 08:48, June 14, 2006 (hist) (diff) User:El Pgk (you're working for the FDA aren't you?) (top)
5. 08:48, June 14, 2006 (hist) (diff) User talk:El Pgk (please stop tapping my phone calls!)
6. 08:47, June 14, 2006 (hist) (diff) User talk:Pgk (rv vandalism by NSA powered vandalbot)

-Goldom (t) (Review) 17:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't see what's so odd about that—Yi^pe 18:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

It does seem rather obsessive, I suppose. As does categorizing people's accounts as part of AOL DoS attacks without posting any supporting evidence for your assertions, at least at first glance. --DavidGC 18:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, patriot act, thanks kainaw. VdSV9•♫ 18:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is legal to have proof that the FDA is tapping your phone. User:Zoe|^(talk) 16:14, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

American President buried in another country

I once heard a triva qestion that was who is the armerican president buried in another country. Sadly I was not able to hear the answer. Does anyone know? Thanks

Jack should know this... VdSV9•♫ 17:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Check this site. Every United States President is buried (or at least has a gravesite) in what is currently the United States. It is possible that one was buried in a place that was later turned into a state. --Kainaw ^(talk) 17:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I reached the same conclusion from searching Find A Grave - US Presidents and Vice Presidents. George Washington has a memorial in London, but was buried at Mount Vernon. It could be a trick question, depending on how it was phrased - e.g., I can think of a couple of U.S. Presidents who weren't buried in the U.S.A (or anywhere else).... or "American" could be interpreted to include South America and Canada. Or it might just be an error by the question master. --TheMadBaron 17:57, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Contrary to an increasingly widespread belief, I don't actually know everything, VdSV9. Only most things, and all the things worth knowing. (Lol) No, I've never heard of any POTUS being buried outside the US. Funnily enough, though, I was thinking only 3 or 4 days ago about creating a Wikipedia article with a list of the burial places of US Presidents and similar personages. But I would say that, wouldn't I.  :--) JackofOz 21:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Ooh ooh! I got it– John Tyler died and was buried in Confederate Virginia (he was also an elected member of the Confederate government at the time).--Pharos 21:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

But the confederate states never achieved the status of a separate country, did they? Were they ever recognised by any foreign power as a nation separate from the USA? JackofOz 00:14, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

See the article... it is an iffy subject. --Kainaw ^(talk) 00:51, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Why, thank you, Kainaw. I never knew that. JackofOz 04:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• I'm pretty sure TheMadBaron has the right idea. The question as I've traditionally heard it are "Which U.S. presidents are not buried within the United States?"

Template:Spoiler And the answers are this one, this one, this one, this one, and this one. --Metropolitan90 02:50, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Completeness about Israel - Arab conflict.

Well, i have went through the articles about the arab israel conflict, and think that the manner in which all the data has been poured in that article, isnt too good, and makes it too complex to understand. I am a regular avid reader of wikipedia's articles, and have a collection of my own, amounting to about 500 Mb. But talking about this particular article, the article presents the facts, but does it in a very complex way. Of course, the problem itself is very complex. Compared to other articles of wikipedia, it isnt very recommendable. So if any of volunteers could modify it upto the standards of wikipedia, it would be great. I myself could do it, but dont have much knowledge about the happenings, so didnt do it. Wish some volunteer would make that article more simpler to understand. Thank You.

There might be a less complex version in the Simple English wikipedia, but feel free to remove unnecessary complexities in this version, too. Emmett5 23:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

But please discuss it on the article's Talk page before making massive changes. User:Zoe|^(talk) 16:16, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Olympic boxer

Where is more information about Salamo Arouch? He was a Greek Jew who boxed as a middleweight in the Olympics (what year?), won at least one medal, and was deported to Auschwitz, but survived. He was portrayed in the 1989 movie Triumph of the Spirit. 66.213.33.2 21:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Hm. good question. We don't seem to have a page on him, and more surprisingly neither does http://www.jewishsports.net/. Unrelated, but you might also be interested in the movie Sunshine, starring Ralph Fiennes, part of which was based on the story of Attila Petschaeuer, a Hungarian-Jewish Olympic fencer who sadly did not survive his time in a WWII concentration camp. As for which Olympics, it would almost certainly have been the 1936 games in Berlin. Grutness...wha? 09:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I did a little googling, and it appears that he won some sort of pan-Balkans middleweight title in 1939, but not an Olympic medal (though he did participate).--Pharos 09:51, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

largest city

Can anyone tell me, or even know at that, at what is the largest city in the world by area?

According to a google search, Los Angeles is the largest city in the world by area, followed by Greater Auckland. --Fuhghettaboutit 22:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

See List of cities by surface area. It does depend on how different countries define 'city' though, as some include larger regions for administrative reasons. There's a decent discussion of the difficulties here. Ziggurat 22:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. My results from google sure are at odds with that list (Los Angeles isn't even listed). I think this is a parameter definition issue. Maybe the best answer is that it depends on the parameters you use to define the boundaries of a city's area.--Fuhghettaboutit 22:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd say that Los Angeles is the best bet for the real biggest city by area (i.e. continuous conurbation), and I've certainly heard that Greater Auckland is very spread out. But I have no reliable sources for that assumption! Maybe Guinness knows? Ziggurat 00:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Our article at Los Angeles, California claims it is the eleventh largest city in the United States, so this claim seems a little odd. Juneau, Alaska has a size of 3255 square miles, much of it water. User:Zoe|^(talk) 16:41, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Certainly Kalgoorlie and Mount Isa stretch the traditional definition of city. What about Sydney, Australia? 12,000 sq km apparently.

Sydney is not a "city" as such, but a conurbation, I suppose. It is comprised of a number of different local government areas, most of which are cities in their own right, eg. Parramatta, Liverpool, Randwick, etc. Most Australian state capitals are similarly organised. Brisbane is the exception. It is governed by a single council, the Brisbane City Council, whose budget is greater than that of the state of Tasmania. JackofOz 00:10, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The same is true of Auckland, with technical and administrative divisions like Auckland City, North Shore City, Manukau City, and so forth. Ziggurat 00:16, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of it's administrative structure, Sydney is definitely bigger than Brisbane. Randwick is only about 10 km from the CBD. These days Parramatta and Liverpool seem to seamlessly blend into Sydney.

Mount Isa is often considered the largest by area as - as pointed out above, Sydney is a conurbation. Similarly Auckland is a conurbation - Dunedin is the largest individual city by area in New Zealand though - like Mt. Isa - it contains a large rural hinterland within the city limits. Grutness...wha? 09:16, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

its actually alice springs (in australia) or at least so i was told by the tour giude. its a tiny town (10,000-ish) but because its in the middle of the desert, they just drew the city limits miles away (for fun, it seems). it has one suburb which is 180km (100 miles) from the city centre and apparently the whole area is larger than switzerland! you could check the Guiness book of world records for the definitive answer i suppose. 87.194.20.253 19:26, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

wikipedia

Wikipedia, tell me. This sight is pretty much run by all the users right? well what if a user puts something on that is not true? what will you do then? what if its true, like do you research it within minutes or...wut?

We do have a page that addresses this, but in brief: If you add something in, and you don't provide a source for me to check it, and I don't think it's true, I will remove it. I am more likely to remove it than spend the time and energy sourcing every comment added without a source. And often this happens within minutes. Skittle 22:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Recent Changes are closely monitored by many wikipedians. And although there is a chance misinformation can creep into articles most things are caught quick. If looking for reliability of information be sure to see if the article has citations for all of its facts. Featured articles are also articles that meet a level of quality, and are peer reviewed by many wikipedians and can be considered quite reliable. --DennyCrane Talk 23:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is run by volunteers, and it relies on the fact that most people would rather help the world with new information than harm the world with false information. It also relies upon the fact that other readers will remove nonsense and mistakes. If those two things fail, users can nominate articles for deletion if they fail our guidelines. In addition, administrators watch recent pages, new pages, and the candidates for speedy deletion. That said, Wikipedia is not authoritative, and we are very clear about that. While most accounts rate our information as on par with print encyclopedias, we do not guarantee it, and our general reliability is a testimony to how generally true my first two sentences are. Geogre 02:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

luxuriosnous

does wikipedia have a list of top 10 most luxurious places to live? i dont know how it would be measured but, u never know...

Try watching the Travel Channel. I remember the "Top Ten" lists they put on. Not sure if they still have them now.Wizrdwarts (T|C) 23:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

first class/ second class townships

What is the difference between a first class and second class township?

I am not sure. Could you tell us where you came across the expression? Thanks. Road Wizard 23:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

It depends on the state. -- Mwalcoff 01:27, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

You get more legroom in first class townships, also someone comes around with a drinks trolley. AllanHainey

June 15

Las Vegas Trip

I'm going to visit Hoover Damn on Monday, driving from Las Vegas. I've been looking at the map for anything of interest between Las Vegas and the dam, but I can't find anything. Anyone live in the area? Is it just a stretch of desert (the kind I had to deal with when I lived in 29 Palms)? --Kainaw ^(talk) 01:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I drove through there last year, and if I recall correctly there ain't much there at all. When you get close to the Dam there's the Lake Mead National Recreation Area, but aside from that nothing springs to mind. Ziggurat 01:02, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Directly between Las Vegas and the dam, there's not much. Boulder City is vaguely interesting for its history, but the extra time is more worth spending at the dam (or rubbernecking the construction of the new bridge). But the dam is only 30 miles, mostly hilly for the last half of it. Oh, if you're a railroad buff, one branch of the Nevada State Railroad Museum is in Boulder City; I don't know if it's any good. There are a lot of interesting side trips around Lake Mead. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 04:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Boudhayana

Does anyone have any further information on Boudhayana other than mere reference?

• have you tried Baudhayana with an a?--152.163.100.72 21:42, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

French military stance towards Germany, 1936

I heard recently (on an internet forum of all places) that France was ready to march troops over the border into Germany in 1936 but was restrained from such an action by the British government, who preferred to appease Hitler, implying that there was a great divison in the Allied camp pre-war. The result of the discussion, which I did not get involved in, was perhaps predictable and essentially the British alone got blamed for letting Hitler accumulate so much power. To what degree should the British government be blamed for trying to avoid another European war, considering that Europe had not recovered from and had certainly not forgotten the impact of the Great War. Did France explicitly threaten or recommend military action against Germany, and does this mean that they had more comprehension of the threat that Hitler posed?

Further to this question, can anybody theorise on the consequences of such a preemptive action. Germany was not entirely ready for a large war in 1939, never mind 1936, and obviously there are far more implications aside from the military ones. Some might say that Hitler was not likely to fight at this stage against the largest ground army in Europe, especially if France was the one taking agressive action. However it is likely that Germany would have been forced into conflict extremely early given Hitler's style of leadership, given that his stance was, from the beginning, 'All or nothing'.

I've just concluded a 3 year History degree during which I spent my last year studying Nazi Germany (with Ian Kershaw, no less), so I already have an extremely good working knowledge. I understand the issues I have raised already but was hoping to refresh my memory on this particular issue, but could not find any sort of page with the details of 1936 French military stance here on wikipedia. I'm sure there is one but searching yielded nothing.

Nice one!!!

cassidy

I haven't studied this for a few years, but the thing it reminds me of is when Hitler remilitarised the Rheinland - although in reverse. As I recall, the British government were keen to oppose him (although not in any position to do so), and so appealed to the French, who refused to take action because they were about to have an election, and didn't want to plunge France into a war - ironically, the Germans having been under orders to withdraw if they met any resistance due to their inability to fight a protracted conflict at that point.

As regards the speculation... who knows :) Mnemeson 03:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I haven't thought about this for a while, but I believe that in France, many people would have wanted to avoid war if at all possible...remember that a large portion of the fighting of World War I took place in northern France, and the trauma of that was still fresh in people's minds.

Some search terms for you to try are "Popular Front" or "Front populaire" (the coalition of left-wing parties that came into power in 1936) and "Léon Blum" (the Socialist prime minister at the head of that coalition). There's also a book that I haven't read, but purports to deal with your question: Strange Victory by Ernest R. May. This book's title alludes to another book, L'étrange défaite or Strange Defeat by Marc Bloch, whose contents I do not remember.--Tachikoma 04:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't give you the whole story as it's been a while since I've looked at the subject myself, but maybe I can give you a few extra pieces of the puzzle to help you out. You probably already know most of this, but here goes: Due to the Treaty of Versailles Hitler had to very surrepticiously build up the German army during the 1930's. This meant being on reasonably good terms with the then extremely pacifist Government of Britain. In 1936, German military forces were still extremely weak, and posed no threat to France or Britain. France could have easily overrun Germany with very little resistance. But I'm sure you already knew that. (Of course, this action by France would have been considered, by todays standards, as "an illegal pre-emptive war based on nothing more than mere speculation and suspicion, with no hard evidence, of the threat posed by a brutal dictator who had the habit of murdering his own people", and should France have actually sent troops into Germany, they would surely be regarded by today's standards as "illegal occupiers of a sovereign nation".)

The one instance where I would differ from your summary of the situation in 1936 is in your terminology. Back in '36, I wouldn't say that the Brits were looking to appease Hitler, rather, as I said, their Government was extremely pacifist and many sort of sympathised with Germany's situation, in the sense that they felt that the Treaty was overly harsh and that all that Hitler really wanted to do (despite the fact that Mein Kampf was published 12 years earlier clearly outlining Hitler's true goal -- it was no secret) was rebuild Germany into a proper European power and restore the dignity it deserved. So basically what I'm saying is that 1936 was too early too speak of appeasement, as that seems to imply that Hitler was seen as a serious threat, and that actions were taken to convince him to change his policy of expansionism. True appeasement only began a little while later, when Hitler gradually but continuously began to appear to be more and more of a threat to the stability of Europe. I believe the policy if the British at that point in time (i.e. 1936) was not appeasement at all, but rather a naïve devotion to pacifism (i.e. make love not war), and, save for those constant rantings in Parliament by that paranoid, babyfaced, half-drunk, cigar smoking "warmonger" has-been MP from Kent, an ignorant blindness to what were Hitler's obvious intentions. Sorry I couldn't speak of the French position, as I'm far less informed as to the politics of France at the time than of Britain. In any case, I'm sure you already know most of this at least, if not all, so I'm sorry if all I just said is just a repetition of the basics of the lead-up to WWII. I just hope that I may have added perhaps one or two little elements that may have slipped your mind. Loomis51 11:16, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

True, appeasement in 1936 was not the right phrase to use, but the general idea was there. I recognise that Germany was in no position to fight in 1936 (the four year plan, in which Hitler stated he wanted the country ready for a war in 4 years, was only put forward in 36), especially against France. Also the problems regarding such a preemptive action are very clear, in all likelihood I think the French, if they did move, would be forced to withdraw after a short time and Hitler would merely be delayed. Perhaps even not that much as it would be easier for him to gain international support.

The French having been hit the hardest by WW1, and going through the process of an election, were unlikely to go to war without very good reason, and the British did have a pacifist government.

Basically, all very good points. :)

Still I am looking for any evidence to the contrary, ie explicit French recommendation for action. I ****ing hate it when somebody just invents facts to try and bolster their argument on a message board, it's so stupid.

cassidy [After computer problem & edit conflict]

As you no doubt know France did invade the Ruhr valley in 1923 but had to abandon it after a German workers strike & campaign of passive resistance. As to anotherproposed invasion in 1936, presumably in response to German reoccupation of the Rhineland, I'm not aware that this was ever seriously considered by the French (though a few politicians may have advocated it). I believe at this time the French were more focussed on beefing up the Maginot Line and extending it along the Belgian border than taking any offensive operations. During this period the French overall seem from what I've read to be more focussed on the defensive than offensive with relation to Germany.

As regards the British attitude there was a general feeling there that Hitler was "only going into his own backyard" and there was, with a few exceptions, felt to be no harm in this as it was simply allowing a redressing of an extrememely harsh treaty. I'd agree with Loomis51 that it is far to early to characterise this as appeasement - that only began once there was a real threat posed by Germany to Britain and when Hitler began moving in on other countries/areas with partially German populations. AllanHainey 14:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Clinton's internal US travel?

I remember reading back in 2000 odd that Clinton had visited 49 US states, but there was one he'd flown over a hundred times, and never landed in. A bit vague, and Google doesn't seem to know much about his internal travel, but I was wondering if anyone knew which one he'd missed out?

cheers! Mnemeson 03:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• I guess he could have flown over Alaska many times on trips to Asia, but I would be surprised if he hadn't visited there somtime (there are a lot of military installations there etc.). Or it could just be some small state near DC like Maryland or Delaware (which has no significant commercial airport) that he just always drove to.--Pharos 03:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Or I could have just searched google and told you it was Nebraska.[11] [12]. But wild guessing is generally more fun.--Pharos 03:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
    • That it is. And I apparently should have checked a few more pages. Thanks! Mnemeson 04:22, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

just a question...

Hi. I just want to ask that what would be the best answer to the question "Is good always right?"

Thank You...!!

I think you would need to define "good" and "right". Also, it is possible for someone to do something that they believe is good and right but actually be doing the wrong thing, like giving money to a friend in difficulties, who then spends it on drink and gets in a wreck.

If you define "right" as meaning legal then there are many instances when "right" might not be "good". It was illegal for Germans to hide Jews from the authorities in Nazi Germany, but in this case the good thing would have been to ignore the law. -- Chris Q 07:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

"The best answer" is something for you to decide as you finish your essay ;).

If you are defining "good" with reference to others you will find ample historcical backing for a "yes" (see ethic of reciprocity). "Good as right" could also be taken as (a very much simplified) expression of utilitarianism.

You should probably also look at Goodness and evil and Enlightened self-interest (the last is a rather weak page unfortunately). Marskell 10:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• dunno,but truth is beauty(hotclaws**== 10:15, 16 June 2006 (UTC))

Merthyr rising 1831

why did William Crawshay the ironmaster try to stop the workers from rioting?

Because he was a rich industrialist in the area? He did write an account of the riots The Late Riots at Merthyr Tydfil. MeltBanana 21:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Lord Franklin

Jane Griffin, Lady Franklin, offered a reward of £10,000 for information as to the fate of her husband's expedition in search of the North West Passage. Did anyone ever receive the reward? 86.135.35.146 11:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The Canadian Encyclopedia [13] states that John Rae was given this award in 1854. See the article for fuller details. --Jaslib 18:29, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Lord Franklin should redirect to John Franklin, but I can't create pages. 64.122.245.143 00:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

It does now. Good song by Pentangle, too, IIRC. Grutness...wha? 10:42, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

St John the Baptist.

Thank you for taking the time to check this for me. We are having a discussion on St John the Baptist and the quote "I am that I am" is said to be attributed to him. Having checked my bible in the Gospel of St John, and a quick look through the Gospel of St Luke is there any other place I can look or do you know who this quote is attributed to in the very first instance.

Thank you in anticipation. Mags

Are you thinking of the First Letter of Paul to the Corinthians (1 Corinthians 15:10)? Or perhaps Exodus 3:14 where this is said by God to Moses? --Shantavira 15:15, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Shantavira is right: "I am that I am" is what God says to Moses. We have almost no quotes from the baptist in the Bible. Geogre 18:42, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

John the Baptist did say a few things, but the only place in the Bible the the phrase "I AM that I AM" is found is Exodus 3:14: "And God said unto Moses, I AM that I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." Katrina 20:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Jews in tennis

I seek an email address for Encyclopedia Judaica, or any other way to communicate with them. They have a section on "Jews in Tennis & Squash" which is very incomplete and needs editing. I will appreciate your help. Please respond to <--email address removed-->. Thank you.

Did you try going to their website and clicking on "contact us"? --Shantavira 17:53, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

help!!!!!!!!!

Jeremy Hyett 16:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)When did canada and australia become seperate from the britsh empire of 1920

Dominion AnonMoos

1920 ? --DLL 21:40, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Name that tune

Going crazy trying to recall the name of this composition. Very well known so someone should get it easy. Here's the intro (or something) in cheapo notation:

      Db          Db          Db    
C C C    C, C C C    C, C C C    C,                                                C
                                    Bb Bb
                                          Ab,           Ab Ab Ab       Ab       Ab
                                              G  G               G        G          G G
                                                   F F,            F F      F F
                                                  

¦ Reisio 16:12, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Could you upload a file of you humming it, for those of us who can't read music notation?

Ok, you can't read music, but you can type those letters there and hear (a Db is the black note before the D, marked #C) The air tells me nothing. --DLL 21:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The Barber of Seville. It's on the list of classical pieces used in cartoons. —Keenan Pepper 01:25, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify that answer a little bit it is part of the overture to the opera, and is played by violins and violas with a cello and woodwind accompaniment. --Wisden17 19:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks guys. :) It's sad, but before I posted I actually checked exactly that, but I was too impatient to wait apparently two entire minutes to see if it was in there. :p ¦ Reisio 21:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

viking school

can wikipedia guys write a short article about the viking school? its located in viking, alberta, canada.

Generally, Wikipedia only lists famous schools. So unless something is notable about your school, no. BUT if there is something notable, you can always register on Wikipedia and start the article yourself. Emmett5 23:51, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, but you can write something about your school (and other things local) at the Viking, Alberta article.--Pharos 05:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Be sure to name it appropriately and to satisfy all elements of the deletion policy. Otherwise, it will probably be deleted. If the school is notable in itself, then it should be ok. If it's just another school doing the things schools do, probably not. (Now, if it were a Viking school.... "Class, pay attention! This is how you slaughter the monk holding the psalter without getting blood on the gold you're taking." "And now Harald will demonstrate the proper way of wearing the bear-sark and going berserk.") Geogre 13:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Generally, Wikipedia only lists famous schools Since when? WP:SCHOOL. User:Zoe|^(talk) 16:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • That's not policy, and the matter is not settled. Make an article on Anonymous Public School, and it could well be on AfD the same day. If you want to be safe, make sure the school has something about it that's worth knowing, and not just a Yellow Pages entry. Geogre 18:00, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Although I am all for deleting schools which fail notability, there is an organized "we shall keep all schools regardless of the content of the article" movement which immediately marshalls and votes keep on all school AfDs. I am not advocating such a position, merely indicating its unfortunate existence. User:Zoe|^(talk) 18:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

British Religion

Which council of 664AD accepted Catholicism as the religion of Britain?

I asked which council of 664AD accepted Catholicism as the religion of Britian? I was re[lied to by Gareth rather tersely I think. As a first time user of this site I did try searching first but could not find what I was after. Please Gareth either answer of perhaps think that the person enquiring could be a novice to the site.

LMany thanks

[email removed to prevent spam]

Try typing 664 in the searchbox (or simply click on "it" as I have provided a link) it will lead to a page which describes the main events of that year, one of which is the Synod of Whitby, which seems to me to be what you are looking for. Flamarande 20:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Many thanks for taking time to reply -

oil business - advisor . consultant

I am looking for a petroleum adviser or consultant to assist me with my trade leads. I have found thousands of trade leads for oil and oil by - products. I need someone , who would help me put the deals together. Is there anyone who would assist me? Thanks, <-- email removed -->

cities

can anyone give me information on what the rating is for csi: crime scene investigation as of 2006 so far?

Rating as in number of viewers, or in terms of age rating? Road Wizard 23:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

amps

hi, i was wondering which rock band or music artist of any kind in rock music is said to be the loudest on stage. its said to be ozzy osbourne or the who but i think otherwise.

Spinal Tap's go up to 11... ;) AnonMoos 22:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

No fair, I was going to say that! Anyway, I believe the current record-holder is Manowar (band), with 129dB, above the hearing threshold of pain (see here for details). Ziggurat 03:17, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Just reread your question and noticed that you specified rock music; that one I don't know, although The Who are described on this webpage as the loudest. Ziggurat 03:24, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Out of interest, why don't you class Manowar as rock music? Anyway, Swans were also one of the loudest, although our article doesn't give a dB level for them. --Richardrj 04:51, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

edit conflict According to a couple sources [14] [15] The Who holds the Guinness world record for a 1974 show at 126 decibles. This source [16] says it is Deep Purple but doesn't give a decible. Wikipedia lists the Who at 130 Decibles but doesn't source it. Another unsourced statement [17] says 150 Decibles has been reached in America but doesn't say who. I saw another report that gave 140 dB but again did not source. There was a court case against the smashing pumpkins where a fan claimed hearing loss due to 125 dB music. This [18] claims that fan cheers at one concert were recorded at 128.8 dB. It is probably an impossible question now as there are quite a few bands that play around at that upper end from 120dB to 130dB. Pain starts to kick in at 120 dB so I don't see anybody going much above what they are now or you would have fans rolling in the aisles. Nowimnthing 03:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Disaster Area :) Seriously, I doubt there's any ISO standard procedure for measuring rock band sound levels - do you measure them from 5 centimetres from the speakers? --Robert Merkel 05:06, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Elizabeth Fretwell

The great Australian operatic soprano Elizabeth Fretwell died "on the weekend" of 3-4 June. She was extraordinarily reticent about self-promotion (which may help to explain why there's no WP article on her). Characteristically, her death has barely been reported at all - I've found only one vague reference to it on Google. Does anybody know her exact date of death? JackofOz 22:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Surprisingly, there are zero articles about her at news.google.com. The only thing I could find relevant was a posting on Opera-L, which isn't really verifiable. User:Zoe|^(talk) 16:51, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

ancient rome quote

What's that quote about how the young generation is going to the dogs, values are in decline, people have no respect for their elders, no morals etc, the punchline is that it is some ancient roman dude? Thanks!

I believe you're talking about one of these, yes? Ziggurat 03:13, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe you're referring to the famous phrase "O Tempores! O Mores!"... uttered by the master of rhetoric himself: Cicero. 82.131.188.130 23:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC).

June 16

Hypothetical questions about copyright law

I have a couple questions about copyright law. It need not be confined to U.S. law.

1. If an artist dies before completing a work, can it be protected by copyright law as though it were complete? For instance, if a famous author created a plot or several chapters of a book, but never finished it, would it be treated as a finished work?

2. This next question is more abstract. If an author finished, say, nine of ten chapters of a book, but left the final chapter unwritten (but its content strongly implied), could another author write the final chapter and make money from it, perhaps by selling it as a "companion" to the unfinished work? Or would copyright law prevent this? Are the implications of the author protected by copyright? Bhumiya (said/done) 00:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Answers: 1. You can copyright just about anything if its more than a few sentences long. My science teacher regularly coprights the lab worksheets he rights.

2. I don't know, sorry. Emmett5 03:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

For 1., see Copyright#Obtaining and enforcing copyright. There's no necessity for a work to be finished before it is copyrighted; under most laws the copyright comes automatically with the act of writing it.

For 2., yes, copyright law typically prevents this as a derivative work unless it's a satire (see Fanfiction#Legal issues in the United States and abroad).

Please note that I'm not a lawyer, so if it's a real legal issue you should talk to someone who knows what they're talking about :) Ziggurat 03:36, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

These are very interesting questions. For an account of a remarkably similar scenario, check out Franz Kafka's The Trial. Kafka actually died before completing this work, which nonetheless is seen by most as his masterpiece. In fact, as is not entirely unusual for many artists, he utterly despised everything that he wrote, and explicitly instructed his good friend Max Brod to burn all of his unpublished works upon his death.

Kafka then died and Brod was faced with an incredibly difficult dilemma: What was worse? To follow Kafka's ridiculous instructions and deny the world this literary masterpiece? Or to ignore what was basically the last will and testament of a dead man concerning the disposition of his own rightful property? Fortunately for all of us, Brod chose the latter, despite the moral ambiguity of his choice.

(In fact, this question seems a bit too similar to the scenario discussed above concerning Kafka. Is the questioner perhaps entertaining the thought of writing the final chapters of The Trial that Kafka never got around to finishing, and then trying to copyright it? I know, I know, assume good faith, assume good faith, assume good faith...I think I'll have those three words tatooed on my forehead. After all, these must surely be purely hypothetical questions). Loomis51 21:41, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

No, nothing so sinister. I was just wondering about the limitations of intellectual property law. I was imagining what might happen if a major contemporary author, e.g. Philip Roth or Salman Rushdie, began writing a novel, but never finished it. Even if the unfinished work were copyrighted, which it no doubt would be, the story would be left open. What would prevent an enterprising author from writing a veiled conclusion to the novel, wrapping up the themes but not actually using the original names of the characters, etc? Eventually someone starts a rumor about the nature of the novel, which creates interest, and the rest you can imagine for yourself. The work is certainly derivative, but if it is derived only from the themes of the original unfinished work, which are arguably universal, then how can the author be prosecuted? Probably not an issue of pressing import, but there we are. Bhumiya (said/done) 22:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

If God exists

Question moved here from Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science by JackofOz

If God exists and the Jews are indeed God's chosen people, why did he allow his people to suffer and almost be wiped out during the holocaust? Why didn't he choose to smite the Nazis? --84.65.185.138 00:23, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

God doesn't exist.  :-) -Quasipalm 00:25, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

If Santa Claus knows who's naughty and who's nice, why does everyone (except Jews, Muslims, etc.) get Christmas presents? (Cj67 00:32, 16 June 2006 (UTC))

Test of faith? If you have ever read the old testament, you will know that God can be a bit of a bastard to his 'chosen people' like that. I suppose that you *could* argue that God smote Hitler with madness and delivered the Nazis into the hands of their enemies... --Kurt Shaped Box 00:44, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

This is in essence the problem of evil; why does evil exist in a world with an omniscient, omnipotent God? There are many proposed explanations. Some people believe it has to do with free will; that is, we have free will to choose our path. In this philosophy, God could control any or all of us, but in a sense, this is "boring", animating people is like playing with a doll's house. Giving people free will and letting them interact and evolve is far more "interesting". This philosophy tends to a posit a god who interferes little with humanity or the universe, but is more of a creator-turned-spectator. — Knowledge Seeker দ 00:58, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

This isn't a question that science can answer. You would do better to ask a theologian or a philosopher. —Bkell (talk) 01:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Or play Black & White... -- Миборовский 01:09, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah... I really don't think this question ahs ANY scientific value... Try humanities, or talk to a Rabbi or a philosopher. Political Mind 01:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Where did you get the idea that God should prevent "evil" things happening and allow only "good" things to happen? Who told you that that is the way God operates, or should operate? Why do you have such human expectations of an intrinsically non-human being? If you accept there is an omnipotent, omniscient and eternal being who created the entire universe, how can you simultaneously question the infinite wisdom of such a being? I'm reminded of King Alfonso IX (dubbed "The Wise") who said "Had I been present at the creation, I would have given some useful hints for the better ordering of the universe". (Nice one, Al). Just as learning cannot occur without mistakes, justice cannot exist without injustice, at an individual level and at a societal level. That is not to condone or rationalise away any injustices that have ever been done to the Jews or any other society, but to realise there is a divine purpose behind everything. Not just the things we'd like there to be a divine purpose behind, but everything without exception. (Thus endeth today's lesson.) JackofOz 01:58, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

So, what is the divine purpose behind the holocaust? And why can't justice occur without injustice? --Bowlhover 03:27, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I never claimed to know what the divine purpose of anything is. I just believe there is one. It makes life worth living. Without injustice, there would be no need to make the distinction between the 2 concepts. Things would just be as they are, neither just nor unjust. It's only because injustice occurs that humans then perceive a need for justice. In that sense, justice defines itself out of our primordial egoic yearnings. A world that is always just would be like the Garden of Eden before the fall, or Utopia. Not only boring, but destined not to stay that way. That's the thing about humans. We create the seeds of our own destruction, but we are also the agents of our own salvation. "We are blended creatures, half-abject and half-divine". JackofOz 08:11, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Um...this isn't science. Where would a question like this go? --M1ss1ontomars2k4 ^{(T | C | @)} 04:59, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Questions of classification, nomenclature and taxonomy are of great important to science. (lol) JackofOz 06:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Question I always want an answer for is, if God is omniscient, then he knows exactly what the consequences of his actions and words are. He knew when he told Adam 'Don't touch that fruit' that saying it in that way (incidentally to someone with no concept of right or wrong) would lead to him eating the fruit. He would also (being omnipotent and omniscient) know a way of wording it such that Adam had completely free will, but would choose not to exercise it in this case. If God is all powerful, he effectively manipulated events to make Adam break the rule he gave him. God's a bastard. What have I missed? Skittle 09:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Do you believe the story in Genesis is literally true, Skittle? It's no more literally true than creating the world on Day 3 and creating the fish on Day 5 and the land animals on Day 6. There's no point using an obviously made up myth to prove that God is a bastard. Besides, God couldn't be a bastard because he'd need parents who weren't married. Not only didn't he have unmarried parents, he didn't have parents at all. He created himself out of nothing (mystery 1), but at no particular time (mystery 2), and yet he has always existed (mystery 3) and always will (mystery 4). You can't apply human concepts of morality to God and expect him to conform. He's pulling the strings, not us. JackofOz 10:33, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Well of course I don't. But some people do, and they must have an answer that satisfies them. Personally I think the whole concept of free will is a jip if you've got an omnipotent, omniscient god involved. But then I think free will is a jip anyway, so let's leave it at that... The question is really directed at people who a) believe Genesis is literally true b) believe Adam and Eve's actions were a 'fall' c) believe in an omniscient, omnipotent god d) have thought about this sort of thing. Of course, if someone else knows what their standard response is to this sort of thing, that would do too. Skittle 10:38, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Back to the original question, and if you really want to believe in God (and who am I to stop you?) then the Biblical/Tanakh Book of Job might provide a plausible piece of reasoning. Grutness...wha? 10:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, great. We get everyone who wants to make fun of religion. Wonderful. For the question itself, remember the Talmud: "On the sufferings of the virtuous or the prosperity of the wicked, we can say nothing." Let's start, though, by realizing that death cannot be an evil for the pious. If it were, then all humanity would be an example of wickedness, as all persons are fated to die. Second, death occurring early or late must not be, from a cosmic point of view, a sign of justice or injustice. Third, the sufferings of the Elect are pain and unjust in human terms and yet, in a larger sense, may not be. Fourth, God did smite the Nazis. They're not running the world now, are they? Fifth, demanding that only the evil suffer and the good to always prosper is to insist on a world where, for example, any poor person would be wicked and any wealthy person would be favored by God. Sixth, if God has never made the material conditions of the virtuous reflect their spiritual worth in such a minor and obvious way as bank balance, then why would you presume to judge God's will in history by the sufferings of the holocaust? Geogre 12:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I've got plenty of ideas on the subject, but no need to worry, people. I won't DARE touch this question! I've learnt my lesson! Loomis51 21:07, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I think you are looking for Problem of evil. DJ Clayworth 19:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

See theodicy or, more specifically, Holocaust theology, which came about as an attempt to reconcile the events of the Holocaust with Jewish theology. But if you want my opinion, the concept of God is incoherent and self-contradictory. God is a square triangle, a married bachelor, a teapot orbiting Mars, a known existence without a known essence, a cluster of incompatible epithets and abstract superlatives. The persecution of Jews is an all-too-human problem, just like the persecution of Kurds, Ainu, infidels, queers, etc. It's sociological, not celestial. Bhumiya (said/done) 23:09, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

God is not responsible for the actions of people, he is not a divine scapegoat, someone you can always turn to and say "why the fuck did you let that happen". If thats is your view, that is a very selfish take on things. Philc _T^E_C^I 23:45, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Wayne Wilcox

Does anybody have any information on Wayne Wilcox, American actor/singer? I checked the article, and it was only a stub. If someone could expand it... Political Mind 00:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

k. 175

Okay, this is a weird question, but is Mozart's 5th piano concerto, k. 175, considered one of his forgettable immature works? KeeganB

It is fairly famous, I am very familiar with it. However, he does have more famous works, definetely. Political Mind 01:09, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not forgettable, but it's not great music either. However it is interesting as being the first of his piano concertos that was all his own work, ie. it wasn't an arrangement of the music of other composers. I suppose if the catalogue of his works was being redone from scratch, it would be renamed Piano (or Keyboard) Concerto No 1. JackofOz 08:23, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

How to log in

I tried to set up an account. I was asked for my user name and a password. I tried to do this but apparently my user name was inappropriate! What did I miss. Thanks, Harry M. Mahn

Information on usernames (including which are inappropriate and why) can be found here. You may also want to check Help:Logging in. Ziggurat 01:42, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Now you've got me curious. If you told us the name maybe we can explain why it was considered "inappropriate". I'm assuming, since you were apparently very surprised from the response you got, that the name you chose wasn't vulgar or offensive. Of course this may be personal or sensitive information and you have every right to keep it private. If you don't want to reveal the name I fully understand. (Nonetheless, I'm so curious!...pleeeeease? lol) Loomis51 20:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Queston: German POWs held in France after WW I

I have heard German soldiers held as POWs during WW I were held on after that war to do labor as part of German reparations to France.

I have tried to find out more on this subject but am unable to do so.

Do you know anything about this subject?

KingArt

Information

Dear Sir/Madam I am currently researching Reynold Alleyne Nicholson's work on Rumi's Masnavi (done in eight volumes, published between 1925-1940). Could you please send me any information concerning this work, if you have, or show me where I can give the information about R.A. Nicholson and his work. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I could find only some words about him.

Thanks in advance Manizha

Music: Chamillionaire's association with Motown Records

I answered my own question. Chamillionaire is a Universal Records artist sold under the Motown imprint. I'm off to change the Wiki article.

Source 1 Source 2

Ich bin ein Berliner

does anybody know of a website where they have video or audio of JFK's "Ich bin ein Berliner" speech?

This page has copies of a number of important speeches: http://durov.com/speeches.htm, and the one you are looking for is here: http://www.rechi.ru/jfkberlinaddress.mp3 You can find more information on it here: http://apella.ac-limoges.fr:16080/lyc-perrier-tulle/europ/history/dochist/speeches/term/JFK_berlin.htm --Valentinian ^(talk) 08:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Twin Cities

Dear Madame/ Sir

I've been recently researching the life of Vlad III Tepes, Prince of Wallachia, and I've come across the article of Târgoviste, Wallachia's Capital. On that article I found reference to the expressions "Twin Cities". The article refers to several Twin Towns as an example and although I've already researched the term "Twin Cities" I couldn't find a relation between the examples given in the Târgoviste article and the meaning of the expression "Twin Cities". Can You clarify the meaning for me please?

Thank you Diogo Vieira Neves

In this context, a twin city is the same as a "sister city". It normally means that the two cities have official visits and cultural exchanges from each other from time to time. Apart from local politicians; school classes or musical bands are also favourites to be sent to the other town. Very often, the arrangement also means that local politicians try to find possible trading partners for their own industries / factories in the other town. You can read more at Town twinning. The idea became a European trend following World War II, as a way of establishing peaceful contacts to other cultures / old enemies. A pretty new idea at the time. The European Union runs a programme to support such initiatives. Valentinian ^(talk) 13:09, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Civil Rights-American Political Movements

I am searching for the origin and connotation of step'nfetch it. Perhaps Uncle Tom's Cabin. I know the general meaning. Thanks--- The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.238.217.204.

I believe it began as a character on a radio show. Geogre 12:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Stepin Fetchit was an African American actor who played many stereotypical roles in early Hollywood. User:Zoe|^(talk) 16:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

What precise date were two 1974 albums released

I am trying to track down the precise release date for two songs that were both released _sometime_ in 1974. One is "Bad Detective" by New York Dolls (from their album Too Much Too Soon. The other is "Kung Fu Fighting" by Carl Douglas which was a #1 single. Both use a musical phrase known as the Asian Riff. My question is-- which of these two songs came first? Obviously, recording or composition date for each song would be ideal, but I'll settle for release date. How do you find the release date for 1974 songs? --Alecmconroy 13:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

What you need is the archives of the record charts. You say that Kung Fu Fighting was a No.1 single, so you need to find out what date it was in the charts. Then do the same for the New York Dolls album, if it made the charts that is. I've just found Hot 100 number-one hits of 1974 (USA), which shows that Kung Fu Fighting was at #1 on Dec 7. As you say, though, it may have been written and recorded months earlier.

I doubt that the complete album charts are available online, because people like Billboard (and Guinness in the UK) make money by selling their books. So the New York Dolls date might be trickier to track down, unless you look in a book. --Richardrj 13:59, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Aha-- well, making progress. Thanks for the Dec 7 info. Now I just need the album chart- hopefully someone who has the book will turn up.--Alecmconroy 16:36, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

passports

How long does it usually take to renew an expired passport?

In the U.S., several weeks, I think -- but you can pay extra for expedited processing. AnonMoos

In the UK, it seems to depend on the season you submit your request: over the summer season, it can take as long as three months (although there is a fast-track service). EvocativeIntrigue _{TALK | EMAIL} 14:03, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Trainspotting (Irvine Welsh book) - language question

I know this seems like a trivial matter, but i was just wondering as to what scottish people mean by the word 'Draftpak' which crops uf frequently in Irvine Welsh's novel Trainspotting. It seems to be a container for carrying beer, but the characters also refer to people they don't like and consider beneath them as 'Draftpaks' so I was hoping someone would clear up the meaning(s) of the word for me. thank you very much.

Moved question to language reference desk. EvocativeIntrigue _{TALK | EMAIL} 13:58, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Revealed Knowledge of the Prophecies and Times by Nathaniel Brassey Halhed dated 1794

Dear Sir/ Madam

I have a book written by Nathaniel Brassey Halhed dated 1795. The title of this book is Revealed knowledge of the Prophecies and Times and Restoration of the Hebrews.

This appears to be an original book judging by the appeareance of the paper and of the cover, it is in good condition and legible.

Would you be able to tell me anything about his book?

Its value and perhaps who might be interested in it.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

regards, Claudia

Start by looking at Nathaniel Brassey Halhed. As far as your book goes, what it's worth is what people are prepared to pay for it. I looked him up on a couple of rare book websites, and there was no mention of your book, but others by him seem to go for anything between $200 and $1000. So you might have a valuable item on your hands. --Richardrj 14:25, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure it is not this book: A REVEALED KNOWLEDGE OF THE PROPHECIES AND TIMES, Book the First, wrote under the direction of the LORD GOD and published by His Sacred Command, it being the first sign of Warning for the benefit of All Nations; Containing with other great and remarkable things not revealed to any other Person on Earth, the Restoration of the Hebrews to Jerusalem by the year of 1798 under their revealed Prince and Prophet. London, Printed in the year of Christ 1794., which was allegedly written by Richard Brothers? As to the value, next to the rarity, a lot depends on the condition of the book, and even for a ballpark assessment you will need appraisal by an expert. --Lambiam^Talk 17:37, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

heaven

Hey. If there's a heaven and hell, what do you believe? do you believe that if ur good you go to heaven because u had a good life or u go to hell because now its the opposite turn. u had a good life and now deserve a bad...? and plus, on wikipedia its not physically described but is maybe true how heaven is the place of not only peace but luxury and dreams?

We believe. Everyone believes in something.

That depends on your definition of belief. I know of at least one philosopher who regards the concept of belief as invalid. Bhumiya (said/done) 23:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

For myself, I do believe. Plenty of things. And I discover what is good or bad for my brothers and sisters everyday. For the moment being, I don't believe in a heavenly retaliation nor care for heaven, but who knows ? --DLL 18:53, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe in either, but anything's possible. --Alex.dsch 18:54, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

No, only possible things are possible. Obviously contradictory things aren't possible. ("An object whose existence prevents its existing or having ever existed"). 82.131.188.130 23:49, 16 June 2006 (UTC).

I am not sure, but isn´t a Christian supposed to admit that he is a sinner, beg forgiveness for his sins, accept the love and forgiveness of Jesus, worship and love God, BEFORE he can go to heaven? Your name has to written down in a "book of the good guys". Good deeds are suposedly simply not enough. Flamarande 20:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Not necessarily. There's always sola fide. Personally, I agree with the great Epicurus:

Death is nothing to us; for that which has been dissolved into its elements experiences no sensations, and that which has no sensation is nothing to us.

So as I see it, it's not a question of "where you go", but what you do with the time you have. Bhumiya (said/done) 23:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

municipality

What is the largest municipality in the world by area? Not metropolitan area but just the municipality?