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November 19

Blazing Saddles en español

I recently acquired an old second-hand DVD of Blazing Saddles, and was intrigued to discover that one of the audio tracks is a rather raspy-sounding Iberian Spanish dub. I have no idea when this dub was made, but is it possible that it was contemporary with the film, putting it at the tail-end of the Franco era? Could a film like Blazing Saddles have been shown in Francoist Spain? If not, why would an American film be dubbed by Iberian speakers rather than Latin American speakers? LANTZY ^TALK 02:11, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For the European market? Many Hollywood movies and TV shows seem to have separate French dubs for Quebec and France which can be quite different in translating names of characters and locations, etc. AnonMoos (talk) 11:32, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This site makes me think that the dubbing was contemporary with the original movie. That would match the bad sound quality (also mentioned here) Besides, this other site (in fine) reports that, on one hand, Brooks likes to look after script translations, and on the other hand, he praised Spanish dubbing. Pallida Mors 13:44, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the links. Apart from the sound quality, it seems like a pretty good dub. LANTZY ^TALK 15:58, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What does 'พ่อมึงตาย' mean?

An anon IP has just added this (พ่อมึงตาย) to the James Blunt article (diff here). I thought about reverting as vandalism, but I should really find out what it says first. I'll not even try to guess at the script... AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:31, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's Thai. My initial google search shows it might be a song, band, or movie. I don't speak Thai, so I can't comment with authority. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 02:36, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hum... I've just tried the Google Translate 'detect language' tool. It says its Thai (as you say) for 'Amึong father died'. Curioser and curiouser... AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:41, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I found a page that states the following: "พ่อมึงตาย phÔO mueng taay = Your father be dead! (curse)." So, basically, it's vandalism. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 02:46, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've reverted it. Vandals are strange... (and thanks for the link. I can now curse, and discuss politics, in Thai!) AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:49, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Scripture notation

Is there a name for the chapter and verse notation of Biblical scripture, e.g. Psalm 23:4? Or is it just "chapter and verse notation"? Dismas|^(talk) 03:49, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's just called "chapter and verse". See Chapters and verses of the Bible. --Jayron32 05:40, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There are three ~~dimensions~~ levels (book, chapter, and verse), although each "chapter" in the book of Psalms is a psalm, and some books (the Book of Obadiah, the Second Epistle of John, the Third Epistle of John, and the Epistle of Jude) have only one chapter each.

—Wavelength (talk) 05:56, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

[I am revising my reply of 05:56, by changing "dimensions" to "levels". The three levels are in one dimension.

—Wavelength (talk) 15:50, 19 November 2010 (UTC)][reply]

Wikipedia has an article "Bible citation".—Wavelength (talk) 05:59, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! I thought there might be a specific term for it. Religions seem to have a lot of words for various things. Dismas|^(talk) 19:24, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation of "aunt"

In the northern United States, it is often pronounced to rhyme with "ant". But what is the Canadian pronunciation? LANTZY ^TALK 07:20, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, in my experience, it is pronounced "ant" in much of the midwest and southern U.S. In New England and parts of New York, it is pronounced "ahnt", rhyming with flaunt and taunt. --Jayron32 08:02, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In Ireland it's also pronounced ant.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:06, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Probably depends on the location in Canada. I've heard it pronounced both ways in normal conversation - though I strongly suspect "ant" is the most common way of saying it. I've heard pasta pronounced differently in normal conversation too.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:14, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also drama. My dad who had Irish parents promounced it as drama, whereas most Americans pronounced it drahma.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:16, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In London, it's a homophone with "aren't". Alansplodge (talk) 09:33, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is it, though? To my Yankee ear, "aren't" and "aunt" are completely different in the mouth of an English speaker (by which I mean an English speaker): "Aren't" rhymes with "can't", while "aunt" rhymes with "haunt". Or am I mistaken? LANTZY ^TALK 09:45, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think Alansplodge is right. In the north of England, it is generally pronounced with a short "a" as "ant", but in the south it is generally pronounced as "aren't" - but perhaps with a slightly shorter vowel sound than that would suggest. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:51, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a native British English speaker from the south of England and I would certainly pronounce "aren't" and "aunt" exactly the same. --Viennese Waltz 09:52, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Huh. So "aunt" doesn't rhyme with "haunt"? Or am I imagining a distinction where none currently exists? (These sounds certainly rhyme for me, but I thought the English distinguished them.) LANTZY ^TALK 09:55, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Aunt" certainly doesn't rhyme with "haunt" to me (native Brit Eng speaker, originally from N England but now mainly in S). Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:42, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Are you sufficiently familiar with the IPA to transcribe your pronunciation of "aunt" and "haunt"? It would be interesting to see where I've been going wrong. LANTZY ^TALK 11:06, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am not an IPA expert but I think ɑːnt and hɔːnt (corrected) are how I would pronounce themt (I'm close to RP). I to would pronounce "aren't" and "aunt" the same. -- Q Chris (talk) 14:38, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

[θ] is the first consonant of thin, I suppose you meant something else.—Emil J. 14:50, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I've corrected it now! -- Q Chris (talk) 15:53, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, when I say it's pronounced "ant" in the northern US, that's a bit of a generalization. A significant minority of non-southern Americans say "awnt", including me. I suspect that American "awnt"-ers are growing in number, but we're still vastly outnumbered by the "ant"-ers. I'm familiar with the "paesta"/"draema" phenomenon from watching Canadian TV, but the "aunt" thing seems different from that. Just look at the spelling. Why should it ever have been pronounced like "ant"? It's bizarre. Was it some sort of holdover from an archaic pronunciation predating the current "au" orthography? LANTZY ^TALK 09:45, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Someone with access to the OED might be able to shed some light on the matter. LANTZY ^TALK 09:49, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is it possible you perceived the "haunt" association due to the spelling?

In any case OED says "aunt" is pronounced /ɑːnt/ while "aren't" is pronounced /'ɑːnt/, so effectively the same. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:11, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, I genuinely, phonically perceive a difference. As I said, I pronounce the sounds identically, being an American of the flat, midwestern variety, but I perceive a striking difference in the speech of English people. But considering that the distinction is utterly foreign to me, it's quite possible that I'm confused and off-base. Maybe I'm mentally reversing and then over-generalizing the cot-caught merger. LANTZY ^TALK 10:18, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you've been learning your English accent from Austin Powers ;-) Alansplodge (talk) 11:32, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Blame Canada. (Anyway, it's better than Dick van Dyke.) LANTZY ^TALK 11:36, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In Dirty Beasts, Roald Dahl, who was Welsh of Norwegian Parents, wrote of an American aunt who was eaten by an anteater. HiLo48 (talk) 10:29, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Antzy's "striking difference" here in England is down to the Trap-bath split. The "Aren't" homophone or near-homophone is basically southern, the "Ant" northern. A northerner myself, I use the latter. Ka renjc 11:15, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Karenjc, that's not the difference I meant. That's a more obvious difference. I meant that I perceived a difference between "not" (/nɒt/) and "naught" (/nɔːt/), and I assumed that this was also the difference between "can't" and "aunt". I guess I was wrong about that. LANTZY ^TALK 11:23, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, OK. Yes, the /nɒt/ vs. /nɔːt/ difference is pretty obvious in most English variants of British English, (though locals where I now live pronounce the latter closer to /nɔərt/). For me, "haunt" would be /hɔːnt/ and "aunt" /ænt/. Ka renjc 15:58, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's interesting. Before this thread, I had no idea that anybody in Britain pronounced the word "aunt" /ænt/. I thought it was a North American weirdness. LANTZY ^TALK 00:07, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Unless I missed it, no Canadians have answered yet, so...it is pronounced "ant", at least by everyone I know. There could be regional/age differences, but I don't remember ever hearing anyone pronouncing it the other way. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:57, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Adam. Actually, what motivated my original question was hearing Jon Lajoie pronounce the word "awnt" in his song Cold Blooded Christmas. I was surprised, because I thought Canadians said "ant". Might Lajoie's pronunciation be a Quebec-influenced thing, or an AAVE-influenced thing? LANTZY ^TALK 12:05, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, I don't know. Maybe that's a French-Canadian pronunciation, or maybe it's just because of the unusual way he's singing in the song (I mean, he sounds like an Anglophone singing oddly on purpose). Adam Bishop (talk) 14:12, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm also Canadian (born and raised in SE Ontario). I pronounce it as "ant" and would only use "awnt" or "ahnt" for effect. If I heard someone pronounce it that way and they didn't appear to be having fun, I would assume they were from New England or UK (or from the mid-Atlantic. Matt Deres (talk) 14:45, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some relevant links.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:06, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Boston is certainly in the northern United States, and in Boston and most other parts of New England, aunt is pronounced "ahnt" /ɑːnt/. For eastern New England speakers who are non-rhotic, this pronunciation is more or less identical to aren't, as in southern England. (Though from Boston south, aren't tends to end up with a slightly different vowel, namely /aːnt/). The "ahnt" /ɑːnt/ pronunciation prevails even among rhotic New England speakers (those who pronounce 'r' after vowels at the ends of words and before consonants). As for Canada, I would not be surprised if there is regional variation. Quebec English is sometimes closer to the English of New England than it is to the English of Ontario. Likewise the Maritimes. Marco polo (talk) 16:35, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is Boston, Lincolnshire, in the United Kingdom. -- Wavelength (talk) 17:57, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The word aunt is mentioned six times at Phonological history of English short A.

—Wavelength (talk) 17:57, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Some Southerners pronounce it like ain't. Corvus cornix_talk 18:53, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's also likely that even for Americans and Canadians who pronounce it as "ant", the first vowel is slightly different (/æ/ vs. /a/, I guess). I don't remember exactly how to describe it phonetically, but people in Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and New York, and probably elsehwere, definitely use /æ/ a lot more than people like me, from Ontario. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:17, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For some Americans there is such a distinction. WHere I live now in North Carolina, there is absolutely no distinction in pronounciation between the picnic pest and the sister of one's parents. They are pronounced identically. --Jayron32 21:28, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Adam, you may have noticed the Northern cities vowel shift, as a result of which Ontarian speech is nearer General American than is the speech of their immediate neighbors in the northern United States. LANTZY ^TALK 00:20, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ha! Yes, I didn't realize we had an article about that. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:21, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Vis-a-vis this discussion, how did McMahon get to be pronounced in the US/Canada as if it were spelt McMan? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 23:47, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It may be the same mechanism that causes some Americans to pronounce "Graham" like "graem" rather than "grayem". As for why, my hypothesis is that it's some sort of hypercorrection. To me, "Grayem" and "McMayen" remind me of a broad Gomer Pyle-ish pronunciation of words like "damn" (day-um) and "can" (cay-un). I grew up saying "Gram Chapman", and still have a hard time pronouncing the name correctly. LANTZY ^TALK 00:05, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there's the "mahn" pronunciation, which applies with Mahoney ("mahn-ee"; I know it's also sometimes rendered "ma-hone-ee"). -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 02:30, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Data store" or "datastore"?

Is it "data store" or "datastore"? Sample context. --Mortense (talk) 16:46, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Being relatively new jargon, I think you can still choose for yourself. I'm sure some companies selling associated products will be pushing one and/or the other, but it's hardly settled yet. HiLo48 (talk) 22:17, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd go with "datastore", to emphasize that it's not an intelligence boutique. Also, it's more distinctive and shows up better in searches, whereas "data store" is more ambiguous. Google reveals that both forms are current, but "datastore" seems to have the edge. LANTZY ^TALK 00:00, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

These links may be of interest.

—Wavelength (talk) 02:39, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

November 20

Within an inch of its life

How old is the phrase "bnce imply that eaten to within an inch of its life"? Does its existence imply that at that time, the idea of health and injury being a scalar quantity, with some number of "inches" between perfect health and death, wasn't particularly foreign? Neon Merlin 02:14, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, inch is being used metaphorically here. An inch is a small measurement, so to be "inches" from something or within "an inch" of something is to be very close to it. The phrase is also often attested as "inches from death", with roughly the same meaning. --Jayron32 02:22, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The earliest usage of the phrase cited in the OED comes from The Four Years Voyages of Capt. George Roberts (1726): "I will drub, you Dog, within an Inch of your Life, and that Inch too." Antiquary (talk) 10:57, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

the N word

how is the word NIGGER pronounced not to sound racist i mean Nigga to a friend and not NIGGER as a black cottonfield slave, i dont want to osund rude. Btw im not american. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.136.93.213 (talk • contribs)

The short answer is "You cannot". Its use, as a term of endearment, among the African American community is specific to that community. It has nothing to do with whether or not the final "r" is pronounced or not, if you are not a member of the African American community, you will likely be perceived as highly insulting and rude if you use that term, regardless of your intent. Even if you have an African-American friend, it would be best for the friendship just to avoid it altogether. --Jayron32 04:12, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I know a person of East Asian descent who insists on using this particular word several times a day, especially to refer to people with which he is familiar, apparently under the impression that it makes him appear more trendy or masculine in some way. Needless to say, he comes across as a colossal asshole to the uninitiated, and I'm waiting for the day that he says it in front of the wrong person. Simply don't even use the word -- as with other pejorative terms, it's not worth risking your property or well-being when there are plenty of alternatives. Xenon54 (talk) 04:35, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It should never, ever be used under any circumstances.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:25, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Since it actually is used under plenty of circumstances, that response is not very helpful, Jeanne! Any reader who doesn't understand the dynamics, sub-culture or whatever (I don't!) might notice that you are not describing reality, and disregard you as part of some establishment trying to enforce speech patterns on "normal guys". They might very well decide to try when they can "get away" with it and end up in very, very awkward situations. Thankfully, others before you have answered the question in more elaborate ways. /Coffeeshivers (talk) 11:31, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's best to avoid it. I'm white and went to a school that was 67% Hispanic and 24% black. The Hispanics used "nigga" as well, and I was called a "nigga" by both the African-Americans and the Hispanics, but I thought it best to avoid using it even if I was friendly with most of the people in that school. I used "son" or "B" instead :P Rimush (talk) 12:16, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Basically, you can't go wrong by avoiding using it. I'm reminded of an old-old SNL bit with Chevy Chase and Richard Pryor, to which the punchline was "Dead Honky!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:21, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Language in 14th century England

Which language did the nobles use in early 14th century England: French or English? This is specifically for the year 1321 as I need to know in order to add the information to a biographical article on an English noblewoman. Thank you.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:28, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A long article here[1] about French and English after the conquest. "The difficult question of the extent to which English and French were used in England after the Norman Conquest is not to be lightly answered." Alansplodge (talk) 10:51, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

By the 14th century, it would seem very likely that all English families (except recent immigrants and Celtic remnants) had English as a native language, though the ability to speak French was certainly still a widespread status symbol among the upper classes (a necessity in the legal profession). AnonMoos (talk) 12:37, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification needed. A C14 English noblewoman might have spoken Middle English at home, Anglo-Norman in her other daily life, and may well have instructed her lawyer to speak in Law French--Shirt58 (talk) 13:26, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That doesn't contradict anything I said (assuming by "other daily life" you mean interacting with members of the upper class outside her immediate family). AnonMoos (talk) 14:07, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This result from Google Books[2] says that the language of the English court in the 12th Century was Parisian French. English became the language of law courts and Parliament in 1362. Geoffrey Chaucer was writing in English for the London elite from 1369. This page[3] discusses the change in the status of English and quotes William of Nassington in the "mid to late 14th Century"...

“Bothe lered and lewed, olde and yonge, / Alle understonden english tonge.” Alansplodge (talk) 16:18, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What do lered and lewed mean? I'm too lazy to look them up. Rimush (talk) 17:43, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lered = "learned"; lewed = "common" or unschooled. Marco polo (talk) 20:35, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So is it correct to assume that an English noblewoman would have used French to address the marshal of Queen consort Isabella and not the new-fangled English?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:56, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My recollection is that Isabella spoke little if any English, and that English did not become the usual language of conversation at court until the reign of her son Edward III. Of course it is also relevant that Isabella herself was French. But what is this about a marshal? It isn't really correct that English was new-fangled, it's more that the upper crust of the aristocracy was mainly derived from the Normans who came over with William the Conquerer. Looie496 (talk) 18:14, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I can't see that page in Google Books, but Parisian French in 12th century England? Really? Why would anyone be speaking Parisian French in England at that time? Also, Anglo-Norman and "Law French" are the same thing, so they wouldn't be distinguished as separate languages. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:21, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Google Books link is to Old English to Standard English: a course book in language variation By Dennis Freeborn, MacMillan Press (UK) or University of Ottowa Press (Can / USA) 1992. See also the WP article on Law French (first para): "increasingly influenced by Parisian French and, later, English." Alansplodge (talk) 09:11, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Parisian French gained a certain ascendancy in the royal court of England from the mid-12th century even though much of the English nobility spoke the Norman-derived Anglo-Norman, which as you say was still the language of the law courts. The reason for this change was the succession of the House of Plantagenet to the English throne. The roots of the Plantagenets were in the French regions of Maine and Anjou. They ruled the Angevin Empire including extensive possessions in the southwest of France. The prestige dialect of French by this time was the Parisian dialect, which would also have served as a kind of lingua franca among the various regions of France (including Normandy) from which the Angevin nobility were derived. Marco polo (talk) 20:47, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I didn't think Parisian became a prestige dialect that early. Neat! Adam Bishop (talk) 23:29, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If Queen Isabella spoke little English we can conclude she conversed with her marshal in French, hence it's likely the noblewoman would have issued orders to the marshal in French.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:38, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt that any noblewoman would be issuing orders to the Marshal. Nor would any nobleman, for that matter. The Lord Marshal of England was pretty much primus inter pares. Corvus cornix_talk 20:39, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It was not the Lord Marshal of England she was talking to but rather the marshal of Queen Isabella's military escort. Besides, this event occurred in the reign of Edward II when the Lords Ordainers, led by Thomas, 2nd Earl of Lancaster ran the show rather than the King! Thomas of Brotherton, the Lord Marshal at the time was a strong opponent of the King's favourites, the Despensers.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:43, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Parisian French, Isabella was the daughter of Philip the Fair, the king of France, so she would probably have been brought up speaking Parisian French, and probably had attendants who spoke it as well. Looie496 (talk) 18:03, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

True. I think it is safe to say that the English noblewoman in question would have likely spoken French, especially as she had been born in Ireland to a Norman family.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:16, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Japanese characters help

What are the Japanese characters seen on the ground floor of the building in File:Wowow_head_office.jpg this image?

I can make out "2 Building" (2ビル) but I can't tell what the preceding three characters are WhisperToMe (talk) 12:35, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think the character immediately before the 2 is 第 (dai), the character used to form ordinal numbers. So 第2ビル is "second building". I can't make out the first two characters either (especially not the second one, which just looks like a black square). —Angr (talk) 12:51, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

After a google search I think I found it - The characters seem to be 虎屋第2ビル - Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 13:24, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Tiger Store, Second Building"? —Angr (talk) 14:36, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. Here's a realtor lending out office space in that same building: http://www.office-navi.jp/office/02013629/1/ , and it's indeed 虎屋第2ビル - compare the picture as well, it's the same building. TomorrowTime (talk) 14:50, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also, seems like the building is named for the owner, an old confectioner based in Akasaka, "Toraya confectionery". We don't have an article, but there is a ja.wiki article here: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/とらや_(東京都港区赤坂) and here's the company's homepage: http://www.toraya-group.co.jp/main.html TomorrowTime (talk) 14:53, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I just started the English stub of Toraya Confectionery WhisperToMe (talk) 16:14, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the en page of Toraya. BTW, Wowow is not in the Toraya building anymore. They moved to the 21st floor in this building. Oda Mari (talk) 16:03, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's right, Oda Mari. I just marked the old Toraya Building as the former HQ WhisperToMe (talk) 16:14, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bulgarian help

File:BulgarianAirParis.JPG needs a description in Bulgarian The English is "Bulgaria Air office" What is this in Bulgarian? WhisperToMe (talk) 16:14, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Bulgaria Air" is "България Ер" (from http://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D1%8A%D0%BB%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%95%D1%80). I would guess that the general word for "office" is "бюро", but of course they may use a different word in this sense. --ColinFine (talk) 01:06, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Alright - I wonder how that would be conjugated in Bulgarian, though... WhisperToMe (talk) 01:28, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Bulgarian language famously doesn't have noun case distinctions (as opposed to most other Slavic languages, which have at least 3 or 4). AnonMoos (talk) 01:39, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is very interesting! So, does this mean it would be written "България Ер бюро"? WhisperToMe (talk) 02:34, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Having lost the declension does not mean that it can use nouns in adjectival sense, like English :). I think that the correct translation is "бюро на България Ер" ([4]), (meaning "bureau of Bulgaria Air") also attested in their own web site. No such user (talk) 09:18, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, that works. Thank you very much :) WhisperToMe (talk) 11:54, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation of Latin "Niger" and "niger"

Inspired by a previous question on this page, I searched in Wikipedia via the Search box, and I found the following articles, which I am listing in the same order in which I found them listed.

Aspergillus niger, Pescennius Niger, Ralph Niger, Lapis Niger, Streptanthus niger, S. niger, Helleborus niger, Hyposmocoma niger, Lathyrus niger, Tachypodoiulus niger, Roger Niger, Niger Innis, Niger Vallis, A. niger, Chiloglanis niger, H. niger, O. niger, Sextius Niger, L. niger, E. niger, Neolamprologus niger, Oxydoras niger. (If I had continued, I probably would have found many more.)

If I were to pronounce these according to the rules of Classical Latin pronunciation which I learned, then the word "Niger" or "niger" would sound almost identical to a common racial or racist term. How do people today customarily pronounce "Niger" or "niger" in each of those expressions?
—Wavelength (talk) 17:02, 20 November 2010 (UTC) [I am revising my message.—Wavelength (talk) 17:04, 20 November 2010 (UTC)][reply]

I think most English speakers pronounce Latin taxonomic names according to the traditional English pronunciation of Latin rather than the Classical pronunciation, e.g. the second word Homo sapiens is pronounced [ˈseɪpiənz] rather than [ˈsapieːns]. Thus niger in the taxonomic names listed above is almost certainly pronounced [ˈnaɪdʒər], same as the country Niger. It probably is for the other names you listed as well. If you do have occasion to use the Classical pronunciation of niger and want to avoid sounding like you're using the N-word, it helps to pronounce the second syllable with a clear [ɛ] and (especially if you speak a nonrhotic accent of English) a clear Italianate [ɾ ~ r]. —Angr (talk) 17:20, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've said this on this desk before, but I'll say it again: the African-American students at my school pronounced Niger as the N-word, and the infamous "Nigger river" was a source of annoyance for our global history teachers. Rimush (talk) 17:40, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Angr. Insults and obscenities are things which many people consciously avoid in speaking, listening, reading, and writing. (http://www.multilingualbible.com/ephesians/5-4.htm; http://www.multilingualbible.com/colossians/3-8.htm) On the other hand, it is desirable that other people recognize when a different language is being used, and not misinterpret expressions outside the context of that language. However, sometimes people make allowance for such misinterpretation. (http://www.multilingualbible.com/1_corinthians/8-9.htm)

—Wavelength (talk) 16:26, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

True enough, but in this case at least I don't think the pronunciation [ˈnaɪdʒɚ] arose as a conscious attempt to avoid a pronunciation sounding like nigger. The anglicized pronunciation of Latin is centuries old; English speakers were already pronouncing the Latin word niger [ˈnaɪdʒɚ] at a time when there would have been no taboo at all against the word nigger. —Angr (talk) 16:45, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. In fact this is just an example of the usual English rule that if you have a single consonant letter between two vowel letters, the first vowel is pronounced "long", but if you have two consonant letters, the first vowel is "short".

In The Mikado, W. S. Gilbert rhymes Niger with tiger. The original libretto, embarrassingly enough, has two instances of the other word under discussion as well. --Trovatore (talk) 23:35, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why embarrassing? As Angr points out, in those days there was no taboo on the use of the word nigger. It's not for us to be embarrassed by the word choices of earlier generations based on current 21st century taboos. Not quite of the same generation, but an aunt of mine (who died last year aged 93) had a much loved black dog for about 15 years, whose name was Nigger. This was back in the 60s, I guess. Nobody ever thought there was anything remotely wrong or inappropriate about that, or if they did, they never said so. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 11:57, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it's embarrassing if you're fond of G&S, and are trying to explain to someone that it's actually making fun of many of these contemporary values, and then you hit a straight use of that sort of thing. Or if you want to put on a production involving young people, and you've handed out copies of the songs without having changed it yet and discussed it with them first. Or if you're singing along. But yes, it's not embarrassing if you're just analysing it as a piece of dead history. 86.166.40.2 (talk) 14:15, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"an awful lot of black dogs were called Nigger" -- and we even have an article on it: Nigger (dog). (With reference to The Dam Busters (film)). BrainyBabe (talk) 11:55, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Most pronunciations that I've heard have the Niger River and the Republic of Niger pronounced differently. The country's name is French, the river's name is Anglicized. Corvus cornix_talk 20:43, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Although those two geographical names were not included in what I had in mind with my original question, apparently it is one or both of those names being pronounced at http://www.forvo.com/search-en/Niger/.

—Wavelength (talk) 23:19, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Margin of excellence

What is the exact meaning of "margin of excellence"? Where does this expression come from? 93.172.111.201 (talk) 17:27, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to be a euphemism for programs at educational institutions that are supported by charitable donations, as opposed to standard institutional funds. At West Point, for example, Margin of Excellence needs are described as those projects and programs, above the core requirements, that significantly enhance the cadet experience, directly and/or indirectly, but for which appropriated funds (government money) are not available or are inappropriate. These cover the entire spectrum of the cadet experience at West Point: academic, physical, military, religious, community service and other "leaders of character" building activities. Looie496 (talk) 18:06, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Spanish flap

I'm having trouble producing the alveolar flap right before a consonant or at the end of a word, my tendency is to pronounce an 'r' in this position as the ENglish middle/frontal r or (worse) the French uvular 'r'. ANy tips on how to make this sound more "Spanish"? 24.92.78.167 (talk) 21:03, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

touch the tip and a bit more of your tongue to the ridge at the top of your mouth where the deep part meets the part towards the outside of your mouthHemanetwork (talk) 21:12, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can you give an example of a word you're having trouble with? I assume you mean stuff like pero? rʨanaɢ (talk) 21:16, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Your IP address suggests that you are in Wisconsin. If you are a native speaker of American English, then you already have this sound in your repertoire. To pronounce the Spanish word pero, pronounce as if it were written "petto" in English. Or, pronounce the English word petal but without the final "l". The vowels won't be exactly right, but the "r" will be the alveolar flap that you want. Marco polo (talk) 22:50, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OOPS! I meant consonant, not vowel (I can do vowels pretty well). Sorry for the mix up! But the end of the word part is still true. 24.92.78.167 (talk) 23:24, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, the flap in those positions is harder for speakers of American English. Hemanetwork's comment above is correct. What I do—and my pronunciation of flaps in those positions may not be perfect—is I do an aborted trilled /r/. I think it more or less works. Initiate a trilled /r/ but stop as soon as your tongue has made contact with your alveolar ridge. Marco polo (talk) 01:11, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Don't you mean that it's easier for speakers of American English (and of course Australian English)? It seems to me that it would be most difficult for speakers from England and Ireland whose consonantal repertoire contains no comparable sound, even allophonically. But for Scots it should be exceptionally easy, given that their R is more or less the same as in the Spanish "pero". LANTZY ^TALK 23:26, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lantzy, I meant that the flap is harder for Americans in those positions than intervocalically, not harder for Americans than for English people. Marco polo (talk) 15:17, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

November 21

Translation arabic - english

Hello, can someone please give me a correct translation of the text in the picture. It is from Qur'an, Sura 35. --Berthold Werner (talk) 10:56, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is the first sentence of the second verse: (ما یفتح الله للناس من رحمه فلا ممسک لها)

You can find its translation here. But I prefer this one: "the door that God opens for people mercifully, no one can close." --Omidinist (talk) 16:44, 21 November 2010 (UTC) Thank you --Berthold Werner (talk) 08:41, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wehe

How is the German language word Wehe pronounced? Is there a h sound or isn't there? JIP | Talk 19:39, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No. If you wanted an "h" sound, the word would have to be spelled "Weche". TomorrowTime (talk) 19:53, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My German is rusty, but I don't think that would be an h as conceived in English (voiceless vowel). Maybe some sort of voiceless velar fricative? --Trovatore (talk) 23:12, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So, because there is the same vowel in two consecutive syllables, I'll have to pronounce it as /ve'e/ with a slight pause in the middle, then? JIP | Talk 19:59, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Essentially, yes. Let's stick around for someone to explain this in a more professional manner, though. :) TomorrowTime (talk) 20:06, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You can hear the word pronounced at http://www.forvo.com/search/Wehe/de/. The second e has a schwa sound.

—Wavelength (talk) 23:10, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That'd be German pronunciation: [veːɐ], then? Or perhaps German pronunciation: [veːʕɐ]? No such user (talk) 09:27, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(Oops, too late. Heck, I'll post anyway...)

The two es are not pronounced the same. The h makes the first one long. DaHorsesMouth (talk) 23:27, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See German phonology#Vowels, note 2 (permanent link here).

—Wavelength (talk) 00:53, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@No such user: There is no glottal stop between those vowels. Marco polo (talk) 15:16, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And it's [veːə] rather than [veːɐ]. The latter would be the pronunciation of weher.—Emil J. 16:07, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And even if there were a glottal stop in it, the symbol for the glottal stop is ʔ, not ʕ, which is a voiced pharyngeal fricative and AFAIK doesn't exist in German at all (though I wouldn't be too terribly surprised if it turned out some Germans used it as their realization of /ʁ/). To get back to the original question, in ordinary pronunciation the h is silent, but in hyper-careful pronunciation (e.g. sounding the word out to tell the listener how to spell it, or when you're repeating the word for the 3rd to time to someone who's apparently hard of hearing), speakers might put a /h/ sound in. —Angr (talk) 22:33, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Works Cited

If I'm compiling a works cited page using the Harvard style, do I have to list two web pages separately if they are from the same website? Specifically, these two: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/members/expert/committees/search.do?committee=2869&language=EN http://www.europarl.europa.eu/members/expert/committees/search.do?committee=3522&language=EN 212.9.106.243 (talk) 21:25, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The article Parenthetical referencing might be helpful.—Wavelength (talk) 23:21, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Grammatical number of plural-sounding place names in Spanish

I'm specifically interested in names like Las Vegas, Las Piñas, Los Melonares, Las Rosales, etc, which originally referred to a number of improper, inanimate nouns. It would be fine to say "Las vegas están acá" or "Los melonares producen melones", but if the term is used as the name of a place, does it not always take a singular verb? So that one says "Las Vegas me gusta porque tiene casinos", not "Las Vegas me gustan porque tienen casinos". I ask because I was watching the Latin American dub of an episide of The Simpsons in which Moe says, in reference to the Simpsons' house, "¡Oigan, me mintieron! ¡Esta no son Las Vegas!" The character is plainly associated with an uneducated, coarse manner of speech, so I'm not asking whether the line is "correct", but rather whether it is common in certain varieties of Spanish to refer to place names the way he does. Might an untutored hispanophone say "Me gusta una ciudad, pero Los Melonares no la son" ? or "Me agradan Dolores pero Las Flores apestan" ? LANTZY ^TALK 23:16, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tipically, (ciudad de) Las Vegas would call for a singular form of verb. Esto no son las Vegas is better than the quote, but still ungrammatical, I believe. Definitely, "me agrada Dolores pero Las Flores apesta". Pallida Mors 19:02, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would translate esta/esto no son Las Vegas as "this are not Las Vegas". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:03, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Google translate says that expression "¡Oigan, me mintieron! ¡Esta no son Las Vegas!" is, "Hey, I lied! This is not Las Vegas!" I wonder if Spanish speakers would even say it that way, with that Americanized expression. More to the point might be, No estamos en Las Vegas (we are not in Las Vegas). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:08, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have no way to know if this site would be considered reliable, but they refer to Las Vegas in the singular. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:11, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

According to the wikipedia article, las vegas means "The Meadows", and similarly in English the area in New Jersey called "The Meadowlands" is typically considered singular. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:13, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

November 22

Asian language film

What are some especially good, but sad foreign-language films? I'm especially interested in Eastern Asian language films (Japanese, Chinese, Korean, etc.) I thought about asking on the Humanities desk but thought I'd get a better answer here. Thanks. 24.92.78.167 (talk) 02:38, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance and Old Boy are both rather dark Korean films. Silmido (film) is based on a true story, which is somehow uplifting and sad at the same time (its a military thing I guess). --Ghostexorcist (talk) 03:00, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Grave of the Fireflies (Japanese) is the one I recommend to everyone. There was a live action version of it, but both versions always manage to jerk a tear or two. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 03:37, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I second Grave of the Fireflies. The animated version is excellent. Very powerful. LANTZY ^TALK 06:42, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I third Grave of the Fireflies, especially the animated version.

Recent Chinese blockbusters (which are sad) that I recommend: A World Without Thieves and the Infernal Affairs trilogy. They are action movies with deeper emotions. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:33, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I thought Departures (film) was pretty good. My first instinct was to recommend Children of Heaven until I read that you were more interested in Eastern Asian films. Kingsfold (Quack quack!) 15:34, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Branching out of "Asian" limitation, I suggest you have a look at Bosnian "No Man Land". Oscar winner, third act will have you crying for sure. Please don't let anyone spoil it for you, it is a very sad, very powerful film with a strong message and incredible characterisation. --202.124.88.134 (talk) 15:57, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pretty much the whole fifth generation of Chinese cinema (representative directors are Zhang Yimou, Chen Kaige) is sad. I would particularly recommend Farewell My Concubine and Red Sorghum; probably the most famous (among Americans who study Chinese) and most shamelessly sad of these films is To Live, although personally I think Farewell My Concubine gives you the same thing but does it better...

In reply to some of the above ones, I second PalaceGuard in recommending Infernal Affairs, it's more known for being cool but it's also quite sad as well. As for Departures, it has a really interesting and unique concept, although personally I thought it got a little overwrought after the first half or so and I didn't really like the lead actor... rʨanaɢ (talk) 16:04, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also, you might get more responses if you move this to the Humanities reference desk. rʨanaɢ (talk) 16:04, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To Live (活着) fits your criteria very well, and I've also seen 妈妈再爱我一次 (I'm not familiar with the English title, a direct translation would be 'Mother, love me one more time'), which was also very good. Intelligentsium 20:54, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ikiru (which also means "to live") by Kurosawa is an obvious choice. Most of Kurosawa's movies are tragic, if not exactly sad, and a lot of them are extremely good. I'm a big fan of The Hidden Fortress, High and Low, and Ran (film). Also Late Spring and Tokyo Story and others by Ozu. I fourth the animated Grave of the Fireflies, which is by Isao Takahata. Like Kurosawa, most of his other movies are tragic in some way, and most of them are very good. The animated adaptation of Night on the Galactic Railroad is an amazing, unique movie, very dark and disturbing. Outside Asia, Carl Theodor Dreyer directed some really depressing films that are highly regarded, though I found them unbearable, except for The Passion of Joan of Arc which is one of my favorite movies of all time. It's silent, though, so I'm not sure it counts. Fellini, obviously. Bicycle Thieves. The Umbrellas of Cherbourg. Jean de Florette. Marius (film) and the sequels. The Three Colors Trilogy. Children of Paradise. Beauty and the Beast (1946 film). M (1931 film). I'm sure I could come up with a million others if I kept thinking... -- BenRG (talk) 00:13, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A City of Sadness, from Taiwan. DOR (HK) (talk) 08:39, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Most popular U.S. president worldwide

Question moved to Humanities desk. -- the Great Gavini 08:02, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Woops. I forgot which desk I was on! LANTZY ^TALK 09:46, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Destiny Turns on the Radio

As it stands, doesn't the capitalization of this movie mean that Destiny is (literally) turning... on the radio (as in, on top of it)? Isn't "Turn On" the verb? I wanted to submit a correction to IMDB.com but quickly found nearly every website shows "on" as lowercased. – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 09:57, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think English-speakers would make any distinction between "Turn On" and "Turn on". It is customary for some (especially Americans) to spell all prepositions in minuscule, and customary for others (especially in the U.K.) to put all prepositions in upper-case. However, I don't know of any style which alternates between lower-case and upper-case according to grammatical distinctions. LANTZY ^TALK 10:28, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Wikipedia Manual of Style makes the distinction (note the mention of phrasal verbs), as do many other style manuals. I know nothing about the film, though—could the meaning be "destiny hinges on the radio", in which case a lowercase "on" would be correct? Deor (talk) 12:15, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Or, of course, it could be a pun and the character could be called Destiny Turns. 86.166.40.2 (talk) 14:08, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"On" is not a preposition in that title; if it was, you wouldn't be able to rearrange it as "Destiny turns the radio on" with the same meaning. It could be viewed as an adverb or particle, or even an adjective (compare "sunset turns the forest red", although this one does not admit the other word order). In any case, there are many styles of title capitalization and not everyone would choose to capitalize an adverb but not a preposition, for example. Personally, I would, so I'd write "Turns On". --Anonymous, 05:00 UTC, November 23, 2010.

"Turn [radio, TV, etc.] on" used to be the proper expression (as with the gospel song, "Turn Your Radio On"), but "Turn on [radio, TV, etc.]" seems to be used more and more, perhaps influenced by "turn on" meaning specifically "to arouse". Or maybe something to do with not ending a sentence with a preposition? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:55, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Hauptkustus"/"Hauptkuatos"

Hi all,
What do "Hauptkustus"/"Hauptkuatos" mean? What's more, are they extant words? Google only knows the words in relation to Wilhelm Michaelsen, and I've taken the liberty to translate them as "senior curator" in the article. Given that Michaelsen (tho Michaelsen suggests Danish background) was a lifelong Hamburger, is they possibly West Low German variations of a Standard German term?
Thank you!--Shirt58 (talk) 12:11, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ther "Haupt-" prefix just means "head" or "main". "Kuatos" looks like a typo to me, "Kustus" is a (rather rare) germanized spelling of Latin "custos" - it means something like "curator" or "guardian", its exact meaning depends on the job being described. "Senior curator" sounds like a good translation in the context of a museum. -- Ferkelparade π 13:13, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The relevant German article is de:Kustos (Museum) which actually redirects to de:Kurator (Museum). --Wrongfilter (talk) 13:33, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't translate it "senior curator" because, in the English-speaking world, "senior" as part of a job title suggests just a couple of steps up from the bottom of the ladder or middle management at best. I think a better translation would be "chief curator" or "executive curator". Marco polo (talk) 15:12, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! Is it original research if we assume that *"Hauptkuatos" was an OCR error when the old issues of Nature were scanned for its online archives? Article now fixed as per the above. Of course, this does raise the problem of whether Reference_desk/language is a reliable source, etc, etc. Thanks again --Shirt58 (talk) 10:18, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe he's the head Kuato. He wants you to start the reactor! Free Mars! Adam Bishop (talk) 21:12, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Quick question: Japanese

How does one say "Corporate headquarters in Tokyo"?

Would it be "東京の本社"?

I'm trying to add a Japanese description to Commons:Category:Corporate headquarters in Tokyo

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 18:53, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

東京の本社 sounds a bit too unofficial to me. While we wait for Mari, may I suggest 在東京本社 as a bit more of a formal way of putting it? Both of these make most sense if you use them while seated at a desk in a branch office, though. If you want to say "the company has its HQ in Tokyo, none of the two would really fit... TomorrowTime (talk) 19:05, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just trying to say "Corporate headquarters in Tokyo" as a name of a category of images, as in "this category has images of corporate headquarters in Tokyo" WhisperToMe (talk) 19:22, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How about 本社が東京にある会社 then? "Companies with HQs in Tokyo" - that would seem to be neutral enough for a cat title. TomorrowTime (talk) 19:41, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well the images portray the headquarter buildings, which is why it is "Corporate headquarters in Tokyo" - That isn't the same thing as "Companies with HQs in Tokyo" WhisperToMe (talk) 20:03, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How about 東京にある会社の本社？　--KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 22:53, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That seems to work, KageTora. Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 23:56, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

En WP has a Category:Companies of Japan by location and its link is ja:Category:日本の企業 (都道府県別). One of the subcategories is 東京都の企業. I suggest the translation would be 東京都の法人 or 東京都に本社(?)を置く法人. I first thought to use 企業/kigyo or 会社, but Bank of Japan is in the category too. Is Bank of Japan a 企業/会社? It is not a profit-orientated organization. So I think 法人 would be more correct. Or remove the bank from the category and use 東京都に本社を置く企業? Oda Mari (talk) 06:14, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Old Boy (manga) - Japanese help

How does one write the name of the protagonist of Old Boy (manga), Shinichi Goto, in Japanese? I tried looking at the Japanese Wikipedia article and doing google searches, but I couldn't find the answer... WhisperToMe (talk) 20:41, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's in the Japanese WP article: 五島慎一. -- BenRG (talk) 23:03, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ah - for some reason I missed that - Thank you :) WhisperToMe (talk) 23:41, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What does "Fragko" mean? (Greek, I'm assuming)

For months now, I've seen an IP editor adding the word "Fragko" to the article on Vassilis Spanoulis, a Greek basketball player. [5]. What does it mean? I can't find any evidence that this is a real nickname. Zagalejo^^^ 21:18, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See Greek orthography#Digraphs and diphthongs, where γκ in Modern Greek corresponds to g in Modern English. Fragko appears to be a rendition of Frago. From my Google search for vassilis spanoulis frago, the first result was YouTube - Vasilis Spanoulis a.k.a Frago-kill Bill (0:51). I watched the video, but I did not listen to the sound.

—Wavelength (talk) 23:04, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

[I am revising my reply.—Wavelength (talk) 23:53, 22 November 2010 (UTC)][reply]

From my Wikipedia search for greek frago, I found Frankokratia (Francocracy) and Elafonisos, which mentions, in paragraph 4, "Cape Frangos (Greek: Φράγκο)".

—Wavelength (talk) 00:24, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have checked the article "Greek name", but I have not found there any name which I consider to be relevant to your question.

—Wavelength (talk) 00:35, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have no idea how it might be appropriate as a nickname, but φράγκο is the Greek word for franc (the unit of currency). Deor (talk) 01:48, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have left a message at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Greece and the same message at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anthroponymy, each message linking to this discussion.

—Wavelength (talk) 04:55, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cool, thanks. Zagalejo^^^ 05:16, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hah, you'd have to be Greek to catch that... Φράγκο of course comes from the Franks, but it also means the Franc, and by extension money in general. "Fragko-kill" is evidently a mistranslation of φραγκοφονιάς (literally, "money-killer"), i.e. greedy, thrifty, etc., someone who would "kill for the money". The whole issue with Spanoulis comes from his "defection" from Panathinaikos to arch-rival Olympiakos. Much venom has been directed at him for this decision, as you'd expect. Constantine ✍ 08:21, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

From my Google search for φραγκοφονιάς, I found φραγκοφονιάς -> pinchpenny, where "pinchpenny" is one of 43 translations.

—Wavelength (talk) 20:40, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Awesome. Thanks for the replies, Constantine and Wavelength! That's everything I could have hoped for and more. Now it all makes sense. :) Zagalejo^^^ 00:42, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My pleasure :) Constantine ✍ 16:58, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

November 23

Fast food restaurants in Montreal

Commons:Category:Fast food restaurants in Montreal How would I say this in French? I'm not certain what the plural of "Fast food restaurants" is... WhisperToMe (talk) 00:50, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Restaurants rapides à Montréal Marco polo (talk) 01:31, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Marco! WhisperToMe (talk) 02:29, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Given that fr-wiki has fr:Catégorie:Chaîne de restauration rapide, maybe Chaînes de restauration rapide canadiennes (or Chaînes de restauration rapide à Montréal). rʨanaɢ (talk) 02:39, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is "fast food" always part of a chain? Bielle (talk) 03:16, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In US usage, at least, almost always. Perhaps not always a national chain, but at least a local one. Single locations business catering to the same clientele are likely to be termed food carts, diners, cafes, greasy spoons or "family restaurant". -- 174.24.198.158 (talk) 03:43, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see that at all. An independent restaurant operated in the same style as a McDonald's would certainly fall in the category "fast-food restaurant" to me. A diner, greasy spoon, or family restaurant, for example, is not the same thing; at those I'd expect table service (or sit-down counter service), for example. Obviously most fast-food places are part of a chain, but it's not a necessary aspect; and that's what the fast-food restaurant article says. --Anonymous, 05:08 UTC, November 23, 2010.

The traditional term in the U.S. before ca. the 1960s was "short-order", at a time when very few large or national chains of that type existed (A&W was probably by far the most prominent). AnonMoos (talk) 07:30, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hence the term "short-order cook" for the one who prepares the food. However, the term I always used to hear was "drive-in restaurant", as opposed to a sit-down restaurant. The "greasy spoon" referenced above refers to a sit-down restaurant that is presumed to be of mediocre quality at best. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:33, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say a drive-in restaurant is one where they bring the food to your car (e.g. Sonic Drive-In). That's not a necessary condition of being a fast food restaurant. —Angr (talk) 08:12, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Weapons of Maths Instruction

When did the joke phrase "weapons of maths instruction" enter common usage? Before or after the American invasion of Iraq? --Carnildo (talk) 08:23, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a sighting from January 2003 (if you believe the time stamp), which predates the invasion. I'm pretty sure it postdates the Bush administration's talking about WMD in Iraq, since the phrase "WMD" wasn't really in the popular consciousness before that. (At least in the US. I gather you're not talking about the US, since you said "maths".) -- BenRG (talk) 10:12, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know any more about "weapons of math instruction", but about BenRG's point about it postdating the Bush administration: Weapons of Mass Distraction was a 1997 film and everyone got the joke back then, so the math instruction joke may also be several years older -- Ferkelparade π 11:48, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is a UK "joke" at the moment about the 'Wedding of Mass Distraction' referring to the upcoming matrimony between Prince William(what a terrible photo) and the lovely Kate Middleton —Preceding unsigned comment added by Caesar's Daddy (talk • contribs) 14:41, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The many variants on WMD might have been around prior to 2003, but that's when the subject seems to have become widespread. The joke was given voice by "Frank and Ernest" late in the year.[6] Meanwhile, if the wedding had been a bit closer to 1991-1992, they might have called it "the mother of all weddings". "Wedding of mass distraction" is good though - inspired, even. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:20, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

if you google [weapons of math instruction], there are thousands of entries, the primary ones dating from 2003. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:26, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The repetative repeated repeats repeat repeatedly.

The above refers to repeated television programmes - where the same episodes or programmes are shown several times - a common feature of UK television. 1) Is the above grammatical and otherwise correct? 2) Could I make it any longer while still being grammatical? Thanks. 92.15.6.86 (talk) 11:31, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Repetitive is spelt thus. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 11:38, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You could add:

..., repetitively repeating repeats repeatedly repeated previously

No such user (talk) 11:53, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any scope for the words repetitious and repetitiously? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ...

How about: Repetitive repeated repeats repeat repeatedly, repetitively repeating repetitious repeats repeatedly repeated repetitiously.

Not quite as good as Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo. 92.15.13.42 (talk) 20:22, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See Self-reference#Self-referential sentences (permanent link here).

—Wavelength (talk) 22:28, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bowling pigeons?

According to clicker training, "B.F. Skinner taught wild-caught pigeons to bowl while participating in military research". I can't figure out what "bowl" means in that context, though it doesn't seem to be vandalism (having been in the article for some time).--Shantavira|^{feed me} 17:55, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe Tumbler (pigeon)? --TammyMoet (talk) 18:54, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

According to an article in the JOURNAL OF THE EXPERIMENTAL ANALYSIS OF BEHAVIOR, 2004, 82, 317–328, NUMBER 3 (NOVEMBER), the pigeon was taught to push a wooden ball towards a set of miniature pins. There is a paragraph on pages 318 to 319 (available online). --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:11, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You can see birds bowling on YouTube! Adam Bishop (talk) 21:03, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks everyone. I've clarified the article.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:20, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if they get extra popcorn for rolling a 300. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:17, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Would anybody care to proof-read my documented essay on the Chilean mining incident?

Resolved

The title pretty much sums it up. It's a documented essay for my college English class. Just looking for a proof-read for spelling, grammar and flow. Ignore the URL's within the triangle brackets. Many thanks to whoever steps up to the task, but enjoy the read nonetheless.

Cheers. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 20:22, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Out of curiosity, what is a documented essay? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:42, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A documented or research essay is one which documents and analyzes an event, series of events or a facet of an event. Think of it as a Wikipedia article with an opinion. Regardless, I'm handing this in now so I will mark this as resolved. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 15:17, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Angel Land

Does Angleterre sound like "angel land" to French speakers, and similarly with similar words in other languages? Thanks 92.29.113.118 (talk) 22:53, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Non Angli, sed angeli." Deor (talk) 23:14, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not especially -- angle [ãglə], ange [ãʒ]... AnonMoos (talk) 01:14, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hard-g vs. soft-g, basically. Following up to the OP, Spanish is the second language I know best, and it's even farther away there: Inglaterra vs. ángel, the latter pronounced with a guttural soft-g, like "ahn-hel" or really "ahn-chel" (saying the ch like you would for Chanukah or the Scots would for loch). The Spanish way to say Los Angeles, with that guttural g, actually sounds pretty similar to the way Americans say it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:16, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Anyway, the usual way of saying "Angel land" in French would presumably be "Terre des anges"... AnonMoos (talk) 10:36, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

November 24

Before the junk jokes

This New Yorker piece about airport security [7] uses the word "junk" in a context that seems to be particularly prevalent among Americans (on the assumption that the "junk" referred to is neither unwanted rubbish nor a Chinese fishing vessel). The OED, however, has no trace of this definition. When did this particular euphemism first crop up, and how has it seemingly become so widespread in America that the natural response to full-body scans is "a lot of headlines with the word 'junk' in them", while the term remains obscure overseas? 87.114.101.69 (talk) 15:32, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Some citations but no etymology. --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:37, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Among a lot of speculation, this^[1] seems to be credible. It refers to "a lot of junk in the trunk" as being black American slang for a lady(?) with a larger rear end. It presumably evolved to describe that general area of anyone's anatomy. As an Australian it explains to me why the term hasn't spread here so easily because we, like the British, don't use the word "trunk" to describe the rear end of a car. ("Boot" is preferred.) HiLo48 (talk) 17:05, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Urban Dictionary lists the corresponding loot in the boot, though I can't say I've ever heard or seen it used. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 17:13, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, never heard that one either. But loot might give us a rather tenuous connection to family jewels. HiLo48 (talk) 17:18, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The page Tagishsimon linked says "No etymological relationship between this term and junk in the trunk has been confirmed." The page you linked does not demonstrate a high level of scholarship, i.e., I think they're just guessing. For what it's worth, I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area and I'm familiar with both terms, but I'd never made a connection between them or noticed anyone else doing so. No one would confuse a kick in the junk with a kick in the behind. -- BenRG (talk) 03:07, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Assuming that you are refering to the American slang of junk = testicles, from personal observation the term is about 10-12 years old. That is, I don't remember it being prevalent when I was in college (1994-1998) but I started hearing it shortly thereafter. Its fairly common usage now, if a male says "She opened the door and saw my junk" I'd be more inclined to think she saw him naked rather than saw his messy room. I'm not sure of the specific etymology of that usage, except as junk being a nonspecific word for an object (much like "stuff" or "thing"); which can be said with an inflection to make it clear that it is being used euphamisticly. This is one of those things that doesn't translate to print; but from the inflection on the words and the context of the conversation, it is clear when the word junk means "male genitals." I think the inflection is the key; if you applied it to just about any word, it becomes clear you mean "genitals". --Jayron32 03:59, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Junk", "stuff", "thing", etc., are G-rated euphemisms for any number of terms that are unacceptable in public media. For example, "junk" used to be given as an alleged street-synonym for drugs such as heroin. And I suppose the guy could say "naughty bits" instead, but that sounds a little too British. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:09, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The thing that kind of surprises me is that, although "junk" refers to male genitals and "junk in the trunk" refers to large female buttocks, I haven't seen what would seem a natural shift to have "junk in the trunk" refer to anal sex. My experience with hearing the word "junk" is similar to Jayron's (though my college years were 1993-1997, whippersnapper...) up here in SE Ontario; it was around 2000 or so that I started hearing it. As to why "junk" is now used, I'm reminded of something I read in one of Gershon Legman's folklore books - a jokester or limerick writer can employ any euphemism for genitals or breasts at any time with little worry of being misunderstood. Matt Deres (talk) 14:58, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The OED gives:

1. c. Old cable or rope material, cut up into short lengths and used for making fenders, reef-points, gaskets, oakum, etc.

3. transf. orig. Naut. The salt meat used as food on long voyages, compared to pieces of rope

4. Whale-fishery. The lump or mass of thick oily cellular tissue beneath the case and nostrils of a sperm-whale, containing spermaceti.

A similar transf. as that in 3. could be occurring with the usage in question, too. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 16:33, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 December 5#'Junk' as male genitals?

—Wavelength (talk) 17:14, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Would it be wrong to leave out the "is"?

"The stories are true and the magic real." 65.88.88.75 (talk) 18:03, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds perfectly fine to me, but I'm not a native speaker. Rimush (talk) 18:15, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Similar to a parallel question about the sentence: "David has three and John eight". Hope this helps. Eliko (talk) 18:21, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's correct. It can also be done with commas: "The stories are true; the magic, real". (That kind is more common when the clauses are longer or more complicated.) rʨanaɢ (talk) 18:57, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Commas need a semicolon, dashes - don't: "The stories are true, the magic - real". Eliko (talk) 19:17, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's actually a bit problematic, because when a verb is omitted, the implication is that the same verb as before should be substituted, but that would give "the stories are true and the magic are real". However, most English speakers would accept it without complaining. Looie496 (talk) 19:24, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure, I don't have a problem with it, and my understanding was that what's elided is just a lemma ("be" without a specified form). I'm sure some syntax-y people could talk about it more. My impression (if I might be so bold as to do it using generative stuff—not because I believe it, but just because it's what I happen to be trained in) is that what's elided is the lexical content of that verbal projection but not the features/inflection, which are assigned from the non-elided noun ("magic") to the unpronounced elided thing. rʨanaɢ (talk) 19:29, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It IS the same verb, just the singular rather than plural form, as required by context. HiLo48 (talk) 20:44, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The technical term is zeugma (-eu- as in Euler, not as in euphoria). 24.92.78.167 (talk) 03:51, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know how you pronounce Euler and euphoria, but zeugma is pronounced [ˈzjuːɡmə] or [ˈzuːɡmə], depending on whether or not the speaker's accent includes yod-dropping after /z/. —Angr (talk) 08:28, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's right, because zeugma comes from Greek, not German. The mispronunciation "zoigma" is a shibboleth caused by imposing German pronunciation on the word. 87.114.101.69 (talk) 14:14, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, in ancient Greek it would have been pronounced [dzeuŋma] with a high-low pitch contour on the first syllable... AnonMoos (talk) 18:56, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

November 25

sociopath- pronunciation

Is "sociopath" pronounced differently in the UK vs the US? I heard someone from the UK say something like "soshiopath", but I couldn't tell if it was a mistake. 149.169.218.35 (talk) 00:23, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How do YOU pronounce it? Are you an American? Are you damaging the image of other Americans, displaying US centrism by assuming that all other readers here will all be Americans and see things from the same perspective as you? DO put the question in a broader, more global context please. HiLo48 (talk) 00:31, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Don't be such an asshole. My first sentence asked if there was a difference in the pronunciation in the US and the UK. My second sentence gave an example of the pronunciation as I had heard it from someone in the UK. Neither is from any "perspective". 149.169.218.35 (talk) 00:45, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If it's that second consonant sound you're referring to, that's exactly how I pronounce it. Without knowing what the other pronunciation you're referring to is, it's a meaningless question. (Unless, of course, you're an American, and Americans pronounce it differently, and you assume that your audience is all Americans, and.....etc.) HiLo48 (talk) 00:49, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I (US) would personally pronounce it sow-see-oh-path, but if I heard either sow-show-path or sow-shee-oh-path, neither one would strike me as particularly remarkable or unusual. --Trovatore (talk) 00:59, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think SOH see oh path is the most common pronunciation in the United States, but I've certainly heard SOH shee oh path from speakers of American English (and not just from sociopaths). Marco polo (talk) 01:05, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Most South Africans - just to throw in another perspective - say "so-she-oh-path". Roger (talk) 11:37, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) Me neither. There's a spectrum of possibilities with these sorts of words, e.g. for "sexual", I sometimes say sek-shoo-əl, and sometimes seks-you-əl. It probably depends on my audience. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 01:10, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

However, no American would say "SEKS yoo ul". In American English, it is always "SEK shoo ul". Marco polo (talk) 01:12, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I recall Bill Clinton saying "sexshull"--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:35, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The "sh" pronunciation is a reflection of what linguists call yod coalescence. It's something that a lot of non-UK speakers do, but to varying degrees based on where they're from, how formal the situation is and what class background they're from. Steewi (talk) 02:28, 25 November 2010 (UTC)Edited for link Steewi (talk) 02:29, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't Wikipedia wonderful, I've been a yod-dropper since I was a kid, and only now found out. I think that amongst the younger generations of working-class Londoners, the correct pronunciation is SOW-shia-paff. AndyTheGrump (talk)

And isn't English wonderful. :) In the US we would typically say soh-see-oh-path, soh-see-ah-luh-gee... and soh-shull-ist. And we would typically say sek-shoo-ull, although that and some other words with ua in the final syllable I've heard pronounced as if it were an ia instead: sek-shull, and men-stray-shun, for example. There's also the pronunciation of "issue", which we would typically say ish-you, but I've also heard as iss-you. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:55, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I can cope with most American pronunciation, even when they mispronounce the name of my city, Melbourne, but please don't make me ever again have to hear about nukulah bombs. HiLo48 (talk) 06:10, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlHEJtflcmo&t=0m9s /me runs and hides -- 78.43.71.155 (talk) 10:56, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please, please, never again make us hear about "noo-killer" weapons, as George "Dubble-yew" Bush says it. I blame his inability to verbally distinguish between "terrorists" and "tourists" for the dreadful treatment of passengers at US airports. Roger (talk) 11:37, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Foreigners mispronouncing Melbourne - that's nothing. At least //mel-born// has logical merit. But what about all the Australians who seem to be unaware there's an l (el) in the name of their own country. Bill Lawry, Eddie McGuire, Pauline Hanson and Anthony Albanese head a very long list. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 09:29, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Melbourne suggests it's pronounced mel-bun. But isn't that something to do with dropping the "r"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:32, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The "bourne" part is pronounced /bən/ ("b'n"); the "US pronunciation" seems to be /bɔːrn/ ("borrrrn"); "bun" is pronounced /bʌn/.

To me the "natural" pronunciation of "-bourne" suggested by its spelling would be /bɔːn/ ("born") (or /bɔːrn/, "borrrrn" if rhotic). It wouldn't suggest /bʌn/ ("bun")... --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:49, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How would you pronounce words like "earn", "burn", "turn", etc.? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:56, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There are no vowels in the pronunciation of the second syllable of Melbourne. It might as well be spelt Melbn. HiLo48 (talk) 10:46, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nor apparently an "r". Or is that correct? Do you pronounce earn, burn and turn like "un", "bun" and "tun"? Or like "ern", "bern" and "tern"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:55, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. You can forget the "r" too. And it's the latter pronunciations for earn, burn and turn. HiLo48 (talk) 11:12, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK, so unless an American wants to start dropping all the r's, the right way for me to say it would be "Melb'rn". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:21, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK, wait... are you saying the r IS enunciated in earn, burn and turn? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:53, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Australian English is non-rhotic, but that doesn't mean the R doesn't affect the sound of the word. The presence of the R in 'earn', 'turn' and 'burn' indicates how the preceding vowel is sounded – the absence of a rhoticised R does not make the vowels change from ɜ: (the 'burn' vowel) to a (the 'bun' vowel in AusE). 87.114.101.69 (talk) 14:28, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I usually hear it as "Mel-bin" when Aussies say it. The oddest bit of Aussie english (to my "Sarf Effrikin" ear) I ever heard was the late Steve Irwin talking about "woild rawk worlibbies", it took me quite a while to realise he was referring to "wild rock wallabys". Roger (talk) 11:37, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still trying to figure out how "no" comes out like "ner". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:54, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Me too. That seems to be something young people do. They seem unaware that it's impossible to make an "o" sound with the lips spread as if they were saying "eee". A lot of young females particularly have a smile permanently cemented onto their face - god knows why. So "No, I don't have a home phone" comes out as "Ner, I dern't have a herm phern". Weird. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:54, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Jack, that could be a reversion to the old Australian outback tradition of not opening your lips too wide in case the flies get in. HiLo48 (talk) 21:31, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe. Then there's the other camp, who say "o" as if it were "oi" or "eye" - "Noi, I din't have a hime phine". But in among the ner-ers and the ni-ers and the noi-ers are still plenty of no-ers. We inhabit an ark of righteousness, sailing on an ~~ercean~~ ~~oicean~~ ~~icean~~ ocean of mispronunciations. :) -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 22:10, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here we see the problem with spelling pronunciations. Do the people who wrote SOW mean the same pronunciation as the people who wrote SOH? Are we sowing seeds or talking about female pigs? 86.164.76.95 (talk) 10:57, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That threw me at first, but I'm fairly certain he meant it to rhyme with "sew" or "soh". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:03, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

...Or even, doh! Yes, "SEW"-shia-paff. I had a strange conversation once with a friend of mine from New Zealand. We were in the kitchen. She asked me "have you got a measure?" At least that's what I thought she asked, until I asked her what sort of measure. "one for meshing potatoes" she replied... AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:01, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Basis for La Spezia-Rimini line

Can anyone explain why linguists class Northern Italian languages north of the La Spezia-Rimini line as members of the Western Romance family, implying that they are closer to such languages as French and Spanish than to standard Italian? I thought that the most important distinguishing feature of the Western Romance family was the derivation of noun plural forms from the Latin accusative, resulting in plural forms ending in -s (even if this is often no longer pronounced in French), and our article on the La Spezia-Rimini line confirms that this a key or the key criterion for distinguishing Western Romance from other Romance languages such as standard Italian. Yet several major Northern Italian languages, such as Venetian and Lombard, derive their plural forms from the Latin nominative, just like standard Italian. So, why was the La Spezia-Rimini drawn where it was, and why are Northern Italian languages considered Western Romance? Thanks. Marco polo (talk) 01:02, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Some assistance with Argentinian statistics from a Spanish speaker?

I wonder if a Spanish-speaking contributor could perhaps be of assistance to me here? I'm currently looking at revisions for the White Argentine article, which contains a table giving 'Net Immigration by Nationality (1857–1940', and is sourced to the Argentinian Dirección Nacional de Migraciones (National Bureau of Migrations) 1970. As it stands the chart only includes data on migration from Europe, plus a column for (unidentified) 'others'. I'd like to know if this is the way the data was originally presented, and if not, what breakdown of the figures the data actually gives? I've tried looking at the Dirección Nacional de Migraciones website (here), but due to me being a hopeless monoglot, I can't see if the data is there. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:41, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Did you try using the English version of the site? I'll try poking around the Spanish pages. Grsz 11 02:55, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I'd tried that. I've just had another look, and not found anything, though I may have missed something - not everything is translated. Possibly the data has been removed, or wasn't online in the first place (the article isn't exactly clear on citation here). AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:04, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Given the 1970 date, it could be from a book, an article somewhere else, pretty much anywhere. Grsz 11 03:30, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, thinking about it, you may well be right. I'll see if I can figure out who posted the data in the first place, and if possible ask them. I'd posted a query about this on the talk page two weeks ago, with no response, so I thought it was worth at least trying here. Thanks for your efforts, anyway. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:37, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As a matter of fact, the site is awfully prepared for answering your question. I tried this other one, but when I wanted to access Document no 3, a common 404 appears. Pallida Mors 10:15, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If the data were accessible, I could give it a try. But if it ain't, I cain't. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:52, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Accent used by Carrie Kenny on Kim Possible

In the episodes of Kim Possible with the Bebe androids, what accent does Carrie Kenny use for the bebes' voices? Sounds european, but i'm not sure. Nissae Isen's Man (talk) 13:49, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"thelonious" meaning and origin

What does the word (or name) "Thelonious" mean and where does it come from? Besides the jazz pianist, I've seen the word used in this context, a jazz-ish song: The trumpet child will riff on love / Thelonious notes from up above / He’ll improvise a kingdom come / Accompanied by a different drum. A baby names site tells me it's of Germanic origin but I don't know if it's to be trusted. Lexicografía (talk) 16:33, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

According to this site, it's a Latinized form of "Till" (as in Till Eulenspiegel), which itself is a medieval nickname for "Dietrich" (and other "Diet-" (deutsch) names.) --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 16:47, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Spinoff question - what dialect of English is this?

This is a spin-off from another reference desk question about parakeets and lovebirds. The webpage in question is this.

My question: what dialect of English is this? I'm assuming it is a dialect of English, on the basis that I can understand most parts of most sentences, but not all of it. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 16:47, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is not a dialect of English, it is a dialect of mechanical gibberish. Several of the pages on that site are just garbled versions of pages from Yahoo Answers. For example this [8] is this [9] put through a blender. 87.114.101.69 (talk) 16:56, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh I see. Is that deliberate? What's the point of a garbled page? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 21:37, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Scraper site. 86.164.76.95 (talk) 22:58, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Quantity/unit dash when in adjective position

Consider "The 40-meter or 7-MHz band is an amateur radio frequency band, spanning 7000 to 7300 kilohertz". Context.

Why is there a dash between the quantity and the unit (40-meter and 7-MHz)? Isn't the quantity/unit pair (without the dash) atomic?

--Mortense (talk) 23:19, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think Dash#Compound adjective applies. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:30, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You mean Hyphen#Compound modifiers. It's a hyphen, not a dash, although some people use "dash" informally to mean either. --Anonymous, 04:41 UTC, November 26, 2010.

November 26

^ http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/017946.html

[1] ttp://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/017946.html

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